Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on December 01, 2013, 04:15:PM
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New poster here. Have read lots on the net & Roger Wilkes book. First set of questions -
Why was the bedroom phone in the kitchen ? The kitchen phone was in working order.
I read Neville was shot upstairs & on the stairs, suggesting the shooter was in pursuit. How did Neville have time to make two phone calls ?
If the shooter was Sheila, why did he not confront her upstairs ? Perhaps resulting in saving himself & everyone else. He had the energy energy to get downstairs & put up a fight, why run away ? By the time the police & Jeremy would have arrived it would be too late. Neville does not seem like the sort to run away, unless the shooter was stronger.
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Adam Hello. Great to have you onboard but could you please introduce yourself and your interest in the case in the Foyer so we can all welcome you.
April :)
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Thank you.
Ok, will do.
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There are two possible time lines from the stair shot.
1: Sheila turned round, went back into both bedrooms & fired more shots. Then still in a rage went downstairs & brutally attacked & killed Neville, perhaps while he was in mid conversation with Jeremy.
2: Jeremy ran after Neville. He had to stop him calling the police & identifying him. Neville was battered & shot to death.
The first scenario would perhaps give Neville time to make two phone calls.
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There are three possible time lines from the stair shot.
1: Sheila turned round, went back into the both bedrooms & fired more shots. Then still in a rage ran downstairs & brutally attacked & killed Neville, perhaps while he was in mid conversation with Bamber.
2: Sheila in a rage, ran after Neville. Attacking & killing him.
3: Jeremy ran after Neville. He had to stop him calling the police & identifying him. Neville was battered & shot to death.
The first scenario would perhaps give Neville time to make two phone calls.
Hi Adam the problem is that we have no idea what happened that night, we can guess forever but that proves nothing. We have no idea really which phone was used to phone Jeremy and the police or whatever and we have no idea where Sheila was when he did so. It's quite possible that no shots had been fired at the time of the phone calls and that Neville returned upstairs again before being shot for the first time. :-\ :-\
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Good points. I have just amended my last post.
There was no chance of number 2 happening as Jeremy, if he was not the killer would not have received the phone call.
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Must admit the first case scenario seems unlikely as well. Neville had been shot & will know that while he is downstairs, Sheila is shooting his wife & grand children. Especially if there is no silencer attached. He would want to save them.
If he thought or knew they were already dead why run downstairs & stay in the kitchen, knowing you're next ? Running outside & escaping would be better.
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Must admit the first case scenario seems unlikely as well. Neville had been shot & will know that while he is downstairs, Sheila is shooting his wife & grand children. Especially if there is no silencer attached.
If he thought they were already dead why run downstairs & stay in the kitchen, knowing you're next ? Running outside & escaping would be better.
Don't believe anyone had been shot when Neil made the phone call.
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'Going berserk with a gun '.
If she was just holding them hostage not sure why she let Neville past her to make the calls. Neville would have then gone back upstairs to be shot in the bedroom & then the stairs as he attempted to escape.
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'Going berserk with a gun '.
If she was just holding them hostage not sure why she let Neville past her to make the calls. Neville would have then gone back upstairs to be shot in the bedroom & then the stairs as he attempted to escape.
That's not what was said; The words reported by Jeremy were 'Sheila has gone crazy, she's got the(a) gun'
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If she had the gun but was not using it. Neville & June would have tried to reason with her. If that did not work, together they would have restrained Sheila. One or two bullets may have gone off in the excitement. However June was shot in bed from close range. So probably asleep.
Suspect that the shots to June woke Neville. Meaning the shooter was only able to get body shots & a back shot on the stairs.
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If she had the gun but was not using it. Neville & June would have tried to reason with her. If that did not work, together they would have restrained Sheila. One or two bullets may have gone off in the excitement. However June was shot in bed from close range. So probably asleep.
Suspect that the shots to June woke Neville. Meaning the shooter was only able to get body shots & a back shot on the stairs.
so why did Sheila try and save her children by calling police? We know she was still alive as blood was still pouring from her wounds when the police eventually entered the house?
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If she had the gun but was not using it. Neville & June would have tried to reason with her. If that did not work, together they would have restrained Sheila. One or two bullets may have gone off in the excitement. However June was shot in bed from close range. So probably asleep.
Suspect that the shots to June woke Neville. Meaning the shooter was only able to get body shots & a back shot on the stairs.
Thing is Adam you can suspect all sorts of things as can I but we really don't know if Sheila had locked herself in the downstairs loo with a gun or whatever. June very possibly was shot when she was sleeping or lying in bed, Nevill may have been in bed or in the loo or downstairs or wherever, many possibilities??
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If she had the gun but was not using it. Neville & June would have tried to reason with her. If that did not work, together they would have restrained Sheila. One or two bullets may have gone off in the excitement. However June was shot in bed from close range. So probably asleep.
Suspect that the shots to June woke Neville. Meaning the shooter was only able to get body shots & a back shot on the stairs.
Would they? If Jeremy was responsible, how did he manage to control 3 adults? Why didn't anyone wake up as he entered the house through a window? June was a very light sleeper and Crispy (the small dog) would surely have barked alerting the household of an intruder. No marks were found on the windows and the house was locked from the inside.
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If she had the gun but was not using it. Neville & June would have tried to reason with her. If that did not work, together they would have restrained Sheila. One or two bullets may have gone off in the excitement. However June was shot in bed from close range. So probably asleep.
Suspect that the shots to June woke Neville. Meaning the shooter was only able to get body shots & a back shot on the stairs.
Adam, that's logic with the benefit of hindsight talking. Things when they happen can rarely be fitted i nto such tidy little boxes.
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Sheila tried to save her children ? She had the gun, best don't use it.
Sheila locked herself in the toilet ? That would have given Neville time to phone people. Not sure how she was allowed to exit & then shoot everyone.
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Sheila tried to save her children ? She had the gun, best don't use it.
Sheila locked herself in the toilet ? That would have given Neville time to phone people. Not sure how she was allowed to exit & then shoot everyone.
Adam you have to take into account that Sheila was very possibly in a psychotic episode which moves the goal posts. Also if Neville was on the phone to jeremy she could have unlocked the door and run upstairs. I'm sure it didn't occur to Nevill that Sheila would use the gun to kill until she did. Just a suggestion.
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That is a good point. Would the dog have barked if there was a break in ? Or was it a deep sleeper that would not have heard. It was a big house so a break in through a downstairs toilet at 3am may not have been heard.
Jeremy said when questioned that he knew how to gain entry to the house through windows. So would have known how to get in quietly.
Mugford told the police about a window that could be locked from outside. The police checked this out & found this to be correct.
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That is a good point. Would the dog have barked if there was a break in ? Or was it a deep sleeper that would not have heard. It was a big house so a break in through a downstairs toilet at 3am may not have been heard.
Jeremy said when questioned that he knew how to gain entry to the house through windows. So would have known how to get in quietly.
Mugford told the police about a window that could be locked from outside. The police checked this out & found this to be correct.
I thought they were never able to lock any windows from the outside however hard they tried. It was no secret that Jeremy and some of the other younger members of the family such as Anthony Pargeter used the window if the door was locked.
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I thought they were never able to lock any windows from the outside however hard they tried. It was no secret that Jeremy and some of the other younger members of the family such as Anthony Pargeter used the window if the door was locked.
Transscripts from police interviews show this is not the case.
The house cleaner said that washing items around the sink & kitchen window had been moved ftom where she left them the previous day.They were still standing so this was not due to the fight.
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Transscripts from police interviews show this is not the case.
The house cleaner said that washing items around the sink & kitchen window had been moved ftom where she left them the previous day.They were still standing so this was not due to the fight.
Think you'll find the police moved those things when cleaning up Adam. I think you'l find it is the case they often climbed through the window to gain entrance. :)
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I thought they were never able to lock any windows from the outside however hard they tried. It was no secret that Jeremy and some of the other younger members of the family such as Anthony Pargeter used the window if the door was locked.
Maggie,,I could understand Jeremy using that way to get in,,but not Pargeter. No wonder Neville said what he did. ( if he said it )
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Maggie,,I could understand Jeremy using that way to get in,,but not Pargeter. No wonder Neville said what he did. ( if he said it )
There were a couple of windows they used lookout, one in the lounge. There was only one key to the door so the kids climbed through the window when June and Nevill locked the door and went out.
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That is a good point. Would the dog have barked if there was a break in ? Or was it a deep sleeper that would not have heard. It was a big house so a break in through a downstairs toilet at 3am may not have been heard.
Jeremy said when questioned that he knew how to gain entry to the house through windows. So would have known how to get in quietly.
Mugford told the police about a window that could be locked from outside. The police checked this out & found this to be correct.
A dog would most certainly hear someone sneaking up the stairs!! Dogs can hear sounds at four times the distance that we can but there was also the dogs outside who mould most certainly have been alerted by someone cycling or creeping around the farm in the early hours of the morning. June Bamber was also a light sleeper. You'll find that there a a LOT of myths that haunt this case - a lot!!
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There were a couple of windows they used lookout, one in the lounge. There was only one key to the door so the kids climbed through the window when June and Nevill locked the door and went out.
Of course,Maggie. I was forgetting the " one " key situation.
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Of course,Maggie. I was forgetting the " one " key situation.
Not sure if this was the old door, or the new old door ......very confusing.
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Not sure if this was the old door, or the new old door ......very confusing.
It was the new one Maggie.
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I was only aware of one small household dog. Found under Nevilles bed when the police gained entry.
Jeremy had a dog as a boy which he was fond of. However hated the current dog. When police on the murder night asked if he wanted to take the dog back to his cottage, he said he didn't want it running around messing up his stereo equipment.
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I was only aware of one small household dog. Found under Nevilles bed when the police gained entry.
Jeremy had a dog as a boy which he was fond of. However hated the current dog. When police on the murder night asked if he wanted to take the dog back to his cottage, he said he didn't want it running around messing up his stereo equipment.
None of the relatives wanted to keep the dog, either...
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Nevill had a black lab called 'Bruce',which slept in the shed overnight.
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Some good posts on here.
No one has given any possible reasons why the bedroom phone was in the kitchen. The kitchen phone was in working order. Was the kitchen phone not working the days prior to the murder ?
If not there was no reason for Neville or June to move it. And no reason for Sheila to move it. The only explanation I have read was from a Daily Mail reporter who suggested Bamber moved it to show why Neville was found in the kitchen.
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If you read the statement by the telephone engineer Mr Pike (it is somewhere here on the forum) it will answer your queries regarding why the telephones were 'moved' around prior to the murders.
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Some good posts on here.
No one has given any possible reasons why the bedroom phone was in the kitchen. The kitchen phone was in working order. Was the kitchen phone not working the days prior to the murder ?
If not there was no reason for Neville or June to move it. And no reason for Sheila to move it. The only explanation I have read was from a Daily Mail reporter who suggested Bamber moved it to show why Neville was found in the kitchen.
More myths - the answers are in the archives.
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More myths - the answers are in the archives.
If only those writers in their books told the truth there wouldn't be these mysteries.
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If only those writers in their books told the truth there wouldn't be these mysteries.
'Most' aren't that interested in the truth, they simply want to sell books. I guess also that they look for things to confirm their initial thoughts of guilt or innocence adding just a little drama for good measure.
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Sheila locked herself in the toilet? Not sure how she was allowed to exit & then shoot everyone.
Wasn't Pargeter's rifle kept there?
Jeremy said when questioned that he knew how to gain entry to the house through windows. So would have known how to get in quietly.
Getting in tends to be easier than relocking a window from the outside, especially a sash window (as a rotating catch is typically used). Either operation on any type of window would be very hard to accomplish quietly.
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Wasn't Pargeter's rifle kept there?
Do you mean normally... or in particular on the 6th/7th Aug?
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I had the impression he admitted it was kept there normally, as he didn't have permission to keep it elsewhere. We don't know for sure whether it was there on the night in question.
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Wasn't Pargeter's rifle kept there?
Getting in tends to be easier than relocking a window from the outside, especially a sash window (as a rotating catch is typically used). Either operation on any type of window would be very hard to accomplish quietly.
I think he used to keep it in the gun cupboard, but the weekend he was there before the tragedy his rifle wasn't there, it was found in the downstairs bathroom. He then went on to claim this is the reason he removed the bolt and took the rifle home....
The sash window has a male and female catch like mind had. I would say its almost impossible to lock the widows from the outside by banging them. The male a females have to be placed into each other manually..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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How could Jeremy in his wildest dreams expect to be able to enter the farmhouse (with two - possibly - barking dogs) in the middle of the night and expect to control FIVE people? He could not know whether the twins would wake up - or if they WERE awake already. He could not know whether June, Neville and Sheila were asleep or not. He could not expect them all to be lying in their beds. He just couldn´t.
All the possibilities of it all going terribly wrong for him due to the fact that there were FIVE people to control, simply makes me believe that this crime was IMPOSSIBLE for Jeremy to have committed.
As I always say: if he had an accomplice, OK, I can see it happening, alone, NO!
And finally my favourite question for nons: where was Sheila while Jeremy was killing Nicholas, Daniel, June and Neville? Where - and what was SHE doing?
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How could Jeremy in his wildest dreams expect to be able to enter the farmhouse (with two - possibly - barking dogs) in the middle of the night and expect to control FIVE people? He could not know whether the twins would wake up - or if they WERE awake already. He could not know whether June, Neville and Sheila were asleep or not. He could not expect them all to be lying in their beds. He just couldn´t.
All the possibilities of it all going terribly wrong for him due to the fact that there were FIVE people to control, simply makes me believe that this crime was IMPOSSIBLE for Jeremy to have committed.
As I always say: if he had an accomplice, OK, I can see it happening, alone, NO!
And finally my favourite question for nons: where was Sheila while Jeremy was killing Nicholas, Daniel, June and Neville? Where - and what was SHE doing?
I completely agree Alias, it doesn't make any sense at all........ none ................ zilch ;D ;D
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How could Jeremy in his wildest dreams expect to be able to enter the farmhouse (with two - possibly - barking dogs) in the middle of the night and expect to control FIVE people? He could not know whether the twins would wake up - or if they WERE awake already. He could not know whether June, Neville and Sheila were asleep or not. He could not expect them all to be lying in their beds. He just couldn´t.
All the possibilities of it all going terribly wrong for him due to the fact that there were FIVE people to control, simply makes me believe that this crime was IMPOSSIBLE for Jeremy to have committed.
As I always say: if he had an accomplice, OK, I can see it happening, alone, NO!
And finally my favourite question for nons: where was Sheila while Jeremy was killing Nicholas, Daniel, June and Neville? Where - and what was SHE doing?
It only works if all parties were complicit and he would have had no way of ensuring this, AND I feel certain that he wouldn't have made such a pig's ear of the shootings either.
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April: It only works if all parties were complicit and he would have had no way of ensuring this, AND I feel certain that he wouldn't have made such a pig's ear of the shootings either.
No one can expect five individuals to be complicit. In my mind, it is absurd to think that Jeremy could have committed those murders (alone), yet, that was what he was convicted of.
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Hiya Patti. I do believe it was the other way round? AP's rifle was normally kept in downstairs bathroom but when he went to stay prior to the murders it was not there. June told him it was in cupboard under stairs that was now being used as a gun cupboard. This was where AP discovered the 'new' anschutz and took it out of the cupboard to have a look at it. AP's explanations regarding his own rifle are odd to say the least.
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Hiya Patti. I do believe it was the other way round? AP's rifle was normally kept in downstairs bathroom but when he went to stay prior to the murders it was not there. June told him it was in cupboard under stairs that was now being used as a gun cupboard. This was where AP discovered the 'new' anschutz and took it out of the cupboard to have a look at it. AP's explanations regarding his own rifle are odd to say the least.
They certainly are tyler, he doesn't seem to have been able to remember where he left the darned thing!!!! Something suspicious about that rifle imo. ;)
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Anthony Pargeter moved to Ibiza, right? Is he still there? Just curious.
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Anthony Pargeter moved to Ibiza, right? Is he still there? Just curious.
I believe he is Alias, very nice too. ;) ;)
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If Jeremy going to attempt to break in & commit the murders he should first take the downstairs phone off the hook. This disabled all other phones In the house.
He should first enter June & Nevilles bedroom as Neville could provide most resistence & he would not want to run out of bullets.
Once Neville was dealt with, as a fit 24 year old he would be confident of finishing the job off. Two six year olds, a 61 year old woman & small young woman would be managable, even if they were now awake. However if things had gone smoothly Sheila & the twins should still be asleep. They were in other rooms, probably with the doors shut. However the next killing after Neville would be June who was in the same bed as Neville. Hopefully still asleep.
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If Jeremy going to attempt to break in & commit the murders he should first take the downstairs phone off the hook. This disabled all other phones In the house.
He should first enter June & Nevilles bedroom as Neville could provide most resistence & he would not want to run out of bullets.
Once Neville was dealt with, as a fit 24 year old he would be confident of finishing the job off. Two six year olds, a 61 year old woman & small young woman would be managable, even if they were now awake. However if things had gone smoothly Sheila & the twins should still be asleep. They were in other rooms, probably with the doors shut. However the next killing after Neville would be June who was in the same bed as Neville. Hopefully still asleep.
Is it me or have we been here before?
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If Jeremy going to attempt to break in & commit the murders he should first take the downstairs phone off the hook. This disabled all other phones In the house.
He should first enter June & Nevilles bedroom as Neville could provide most resistence & he would not want to run out of bullets.
Once Neville was dealt with, as a fit 24 year old he would be confident of finishing the job off. Two six year olds, a 61 year old woman & small young woman would be managable, even if they were now awake. However if things had gone smoothly Sheila & the twins should still be asleep. They were in other rooms, probably with the doors shut. However the next killing after Neville would be June who was in the same bed as Neville. Hopefully still asleep.
So you think the Neville was killed first? That would have taken time, there was a fight, it would have been noisy, very noisy. Are you trying to tell me that two women were so incredibly passive that they just waited upstairs to be killed? They made no attempt to save themselves or the twins? I am not buying that at all!
June was 61, but she wasn´t an invalid, was she? She could walk, talk, run and scream. Same with Sheila, although small, she would have done anything to save her children like all mothers would when their offspring is in danger! Much of what is claimed in this case I find condescending to females - like we are blabbering, passive idiots that are prone to let ourselves be "led" to our deaths.
June and Sheila could have grabbed the twins and run down the stairs and out the door. They could have climbed out of any window while Jeremy was fighting with Neville. There is no sign of anything like that.
With respect, your scenario makes no sense at all to me.
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If Jeremy did commit the crime, I suspect the mistake he made in the master bedroom was shooting June first. Which seems to have happened as there is no evidence of June moving more than a few feet from the bed. Neville woke up & was only shot in the body & then in the back when running down the stairs. If there were no more bullets left, it would explain the fight.
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If Jeremy going to attempt to break in & commit the murders he should first take the downstairs phone off the hook. This disabled all other phones In the house.
He should first enter June & Nevilles bedroom as Neville could provide most resistence & he would not want to run out of bullets.
Once Neville was dealt with, as a fit 24 year old he would be confident of finishing the job off. Two six year olds, a 61 year old woman & small young woman would be managable, even if they were now awake. However if things had gone smoothly Sheila & the twins should still be asleep. They were in other rooms, probably with the doors shut. However the next killing after Neville would be June who was in the same bed as Neville. Hopefully still asleep.
Do you not find it strange, given the amount of trained and prepared soldiers who come back from wars suffering PTSD, that an untrained 24 yr old, suffering no mental or personality disorder, could casually slaughter his family and have absolutely no discernable traces, over 28 years, of sleeeplessness, flashbacks, nightmares, sweating, ANYTHING AT ALL to suggest that he committed the crime.
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If Jeremy did commit the crime, I suspect the mistake he made in the master bedroom was shooting June first. Which seems to have happened as there is no evidence of June moving more than a few feet from the bed. Neville woke up & was only shot in the body & then in the back when running down the stairs. If there were no more bullets left, it would explain the fight.
In a previous post you said Neville was shot first, now you're saying June? Fact is none of us know so these scenario's are pretty pointless.
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If Jeremy did commit the crime, I suspect the mistake he made in the master bedroom was shooting June first. Which seems to have happened as there is no evidence of June moving more than a few feet from the bed. Neville woke up & was only shot in the body & then in the back when running down the stairs. If there were no more bullets left, it would explain the fight.
And Sheila, where was she?
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And Sheila, where was she?
Waiting in line?
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So you think the Neville was killed first? That would have taken time, there was a fight, it would have been noisy, very noisy. Are you trying to tell me that two women were so incredibly passive that they just waited upstairs to be killed? They made no attempt to save themselves or the twins? I am not buying that at all!
June was 61, but she wasn´t an invalid, was she? She could walk, talk, run and scream. Same with Sheila, although small, she would have done anything to save her children like all mothers would when their offspring is in danger! Much of what is claimed in this case I find condescending to females - like we are blabbering, passive idiots that are prone to let ourselves be "led" to our deaths.
June and Sheila could have grabbed the twins and run down the stairs and out the door. They could have climbed out of any window while Jeremy was fighting with Neville. There is no sign of anything like that.
With respect, your scenario makes no sense at all to me.
That would be my plan if I was going committ the murders. If it went smoothly it is quite straight forward. As we know it did not happen that way.
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That would be my plan if I was going committ the murders. If it went smoothly it is quite straight forward. As we know it did not happen that way.
So you would have counted on Sheila and June to be blabbering, docile idiots...
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If Jeremy committed the murders, we will never know the order.
Perhaps the twins & Sheila were shot first. The twins being asleep & Sheila putting up little resistance. Or they just did not hear the fight (It is a big house) & were shot later.
However it seems clear that June was shot before Neville. Resulting in Neville waking & not getting shot in the head upstairs. If Neville was asleep in bed Jeremy would have gone straight for a head shot.
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If Jeremy committed the murders, we will never know the order.
Perhaps the twins & Sheila were shot first. The twins being asleep & Sheila putting up little resistance. Or they just did not hear the fight (It is a big house) & were shot later.
However it seems clear that June was shot before Neville. Resulting in Neville waking & not getting shot in the head upstairs. If Neville was asleep in bed Jeremy would have gone straight for a head shot.
I don't see any point in this, no one knows what happened - we weren't there!!
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If Jeremy committed the murders, we will never know the order.
Perhaps the twins & Sheila were shot first. The twins being asleep & Sheila putting up little resistance. Or they just did not hear the fight (It is a big house) & were shot later.
However it seems clear that June was shot before Neville. Resulting in Neville waking & not getting shot in the head upstairs. If Neville was asleep in bed Jeremy would have gone straight for a head shot.
You seem unable to distinguish between known facts and your own imagined scenarios. You say
“If Jeremy committed the murders, we will never know the order.”
But then go on to say
“However, it seems clear that June was shot before Neville.”
The latter statement contradicts the former.
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Is it me or have we been here before?
Yes indeed Caroline,though new members should be granted a little leeway.I'm trying to put out of my mind Karl Marx's maxim:"History repeats itself:the first time it's tragedy,the second time farce.."
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We do know what happened.
The twins were shot in bed while asleep. June was shot while in bed & Neville shot in the bedroom, on the stairs & in the kitchen. Sheila committed suicide or was shot in the main bedroom.
Whether it was Sheila in a psychotic rage or Jeremy, from first bullet to last would have been a short period. Probably not hard to work out the most probable sequence of events for either Sheila or Jeremy.
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You seem unable to distinguish between known facts and your own imagined scenarios. You say
“If Jeremy committed the murders, we will never know the order.”
But then go on to say
“However, it seems clear that June was shot before Neville.”
Do you agree that June was shot before Neville ? Another poster said June was a light sleeper but she was shot in bed.
The latter statement contradicts the former.
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We do know what happened.
The twins were shot in bed while asleep. June was shot while in bed & Neville shot in the bedroom, on the stairs & in the kitchen. Sheila committed suicide or was shot in the main bedroom.
Whether it was Sheila in a psychotic rage or Jeremy, from first bullet to last would have been a short period. Probably not hard to work out the most probable sequence of events for either Sheila or Jeremy.
Obviously we know they were all shot, what we don't know is the order or the timings. You can make up a 100 scenarios but will NEVER be able to say 'Yep, that's it, that's what happened' with any degree of certainty. Which is why I said 'it's pointless'.
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Do you agree that June was shot before Neville ? Another poster said she was a light sleeper but she was shot in bed.
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Do you agree that June was shot before Neville ? Another poster said June was a light sleeper but she was shot in bed.
The latter statement contradicts the former.
One does not contradict the other - the context of the above was that June would have woken IF 'Jeremy' climbed through a window in the dead of night!! June could have been in bed if Sheila was responsible because she expected her to be there!!
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Yes indeed Caroline,though new members should be granted a little leeway.I'm trying to put out of my mind Karl Marx's maxim:"History repeats itself:the first time it's tragedy,the second time farce.."
You must admit Steve, that we have gone over this so many times now and there are threads already covering it if a little time is taken to search the threads?
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Do you agree that June was shot before Neville ? Another poster said she was a light sleeper but she was shot in bed.
Yes she was shot in bed probably with the first five bullets which made a mark through the pillow. She made her way to the doorway possibly as Jeremy was reloading downstairs but shot fatally twice more. The Andrew Hunter Book Draft is a good read for anybody interested in the case.http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2441.0
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One does not contradict the other - the context of the above was that June would have woken IF 'Jeremy' climbed through a window in the dead of night!! June could have been in bed if Sheila was responsible because she expected her to be there!!
Good point.
Sheila would have been at the height of her psychotic rage & went on to shoot Neville several times in the bedroom & on the stairs. Would you not expect Sheila to follow Neville to the kitchen ? June had already been seriously injured, perhaps the twins were also dead.
The beating Neville took in the kitchen shows Sheila was still in a psychotic rage. Would she have delayed going downstairs ?
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Do you agree that June was shot before Neville ? Another poster said she was a light sleeper but she was shot in bed.
I think it most likely that June was shot first while Neville was downstairs phoning Jeremy. Nevill hears the shots and ends the call to Jeremy and then phones the police. He goes upstairs to confront Sheila and she shoots him. Few people would face a person with a gun who is shooting at them. Nevill then retreats downstairs and is shot again on the stairs. There then follows the struggle in the kitchen with Nevill already mortally wounded. Sheila goes back upstairs after killing Nevill and June and then shoots the children. She may not have needed to reload until after Nevill and June were both dead.
I regard the above as the most likely sequence of events. If there is a reason why it could not have happened like that then I would like to hear it. It has certain advantages over other theories such as providing an explanation for Bonnett's log and for why Jeremy heard the engaged tone when he called Nevill back. If you don't believe Jeremy, then why do you think he would make up hearing the engaged tone?
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That is one scenario.
I would automatically put the phone back on the hook.
How would Neville have got downstairs to make the call ? Assume June would be awake now & was being held hostage, but she put up no resistance before being shot in the head.
If Neville ran upstairs after hearing gun shots, he would have done so to save his wife, grand children as well as his daughter Sheila, even if it meant he died. Not to run away back down stairs straight away. The only other natural reaction after hearing upstairs gun shots would be to run outside & escape.
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I think it most likely that June was shot first while Neville was downstairs phoning Jeremy. Nevill hears the shots and ends the call to Jeremy and then phones the police. He goes upstairs to confront Sheila and she shoots him. Few people would face a person with a gun who is shooting at them. Nevill then retreats downstairs and is shot again on the stairs. There then follows the struggle in the kitchen with Nevill already mortally wounded. Sheila goes back upstairs after killing Nevill and June and then shoots the children. She may not have needed to reload until after Nevill and June were both dead.
I regard the above as the most likely sequence of events. If there is a reason why it could not have happened like that then I would like to hear it. It has certain advantages over other theories such as providing an explanation for Bonnett's log and for why Jeremy heard the engaged tone when he called Nevill back. If you don't believe Jeremy, then why do you think he would make up hearing the engaged tone?
I HATE scenarios but this would be my version if I were to present one! Good post Martin, as always!!
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I think it most likely that June was shot first while Neville was downstairs phoning Jeremy. Nevill hears the shots and ends the call to Jeremy and then phones the police. He goes upstairs to confront Sheila and she shoots him. Few people would face a person with a gun who is shooting at them. Nevill then retreats downstairs and is shot again on the stairs. There then follows the struggle in the kitchen with Nevill already mortally wounded. Sheila goes back upstairs after killing Nevill and June and then shoots the children. She may not have needed to reload until after Nevill and June were both dead.
I regard the above as the most likely sequence of events. If there is a reason why it could not have happened like that then I would like to hear it. It has certain advantages over other theories such as providing an explanation for Bonnett's log and for why Jeremy heard the engaged tone when he called Nevill back. If you don't believe Jeremy, then why do you think he would make up hearing the engaged tone?
What prompts Neville to phone Jeremy? You seem to be suggesting that the first shots are fired while he is in conversation with Jeremy. If it were the case, that at the the moment he made the call Shelia was running around the house with a gun, would he not have first tried to disarm her?
Why phone Jeremy first, before calling the Police?
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Hi Neil. Sheila could have sneaked upstairs and started shooting whilst Nevill was on phone to JB. However,I don't agree with the part in Martin's scenario that Nevill hears shooting and calls the Police. Surely he would have dropped the phone and ran to his wife's aid - not waste precious time listing all the weapons in the house to EP down the phone line?
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What prompts Neville to phone Jeremy? You seem to be suggesting that the first shots are fired while he is in conversation with Jeremy. If it were the case, that at the the moment he made the call Shelia was running around the house with a gun, would he not have first tried to disarm her?
Why phone Jeremy first, before calling the Police?
Because he may have thought she was intending to just shoot herself!!
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How would phoning Jeremy have helped ? It was no secret he did not get on with Sheila. The first things Jeremy said to the police was how Sheila was a nutter & they didn't get on. Jeremy was also over 3 miles away & at 3am may not have answered the phone.
I am 6 feet & 13 stone. If my 8 stone daughter started firing a rifle I would try to overpower her. Even if it meant getting hit in the body. A rifle is nowhere near as powerful as a shotgun & body shots may not be fatal. Neville was able to run downstairs & put up a big fight after being shot in the torso four times upstairs & once on the stairs. Only being killed after a brutal downstairs beating & further head shots.
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Hi Neil. Sheila could have sneaked upstairs and started shooting whilst Nevill was on phone to JB. However,I don't agree with the part in Martin's scenario that Nevill hears shooting and calls the Police. Surely he would have dropped the phone and ran to his wife's aid - not waste precious time listing all the weapons in the house to EP down the phone line?
I agree tyler. Of course he may have just finished his phone call to police when he heard at least an escalation of situation upstairs, maybe gunshot and therefore dropped the phone and ran upstairs to their aid.
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How would phoning Jeremy have helped ? It was no secret he did not get on with Sheila. The first things Jeremy said to the police was how Sheila was a nutter & they didn't get on. Jeremy was also over 3 miles away & at 3am may not have answered the phone.
I am 6 feet & 13 stone. If my 8 stone daughter started firing a rifle I would try to overpower her. Even if it meant getting hit in the body. A rifle is nowhere near as powerful as a shotgun & body shots may not be fatal. Neville was able to run downstairs & put up a big fight after being shot in the torso four times upstairs & once on the stairs. Only being killed after a brutal downstairs beating & further head shots.
Well I suppose different people react differently to the same situations? The problem is that all we can do is speculate. You may react in a way that may surprise even you?
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How would phoning Jeremy have helped ? It was no secret he did not get on with Sheila. The first things Jeremy said to the police was how Sheila was a nutter & they didn't get on. Jeremy was also over 3 miles away & at 3am may not have answered the phone.
I am 6 feet & 13 stone. If my 8 stone daughter started firing a rifle I would try to overpower her. Even if it meant getting hit in the body. A rifle is nowhere near as powerful as a shotgun & body shots may not be fatal. Neville was able to run downstairs & put up a big fight after being shot in the torso four times upstairs & once on the stairs. Only being killed after a brutal downstairs beating & further head shots.
When was he beaten? There is little real evidence of a fight downstairs, the police did admit they caused most of the havoc in the kitchen on entry. It was suggested the beating took place when he was unconcious or dead, because he WAS so tall the wounds to his head were probably caused when he was sittig down.
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If he ran back upstairs into the main bedroom, he was in the bedroom long enough to be shot four times. But there were no signs of a bedroom tussle. Instead it seems Neville abandoned his family & ran back downstairs. Being shot again on the stairs. Neville would have now been attempting to escape as he had already made the phone calls. Sheila caught up with him in the kitchen.
Was exiting through the kitchen the quickest way out ?
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When was he beaten? There is little real evidence of a fight downstairs, the police did admit they caused most of the havoc in the kitchen on entry. It was suggested the beating took place when he was unconcious or dead, because he WAS so tall the wounds to his head were probably caused when he was sittig down.
All it tells up is that Ralph was beate at some stage. In fact you cannot tell from this that Sheila beat him or that Jeremy beat him? As neither of them was wounds to their bodies consistent with any kind of fight.
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If he ran back upstairs into the main bedroom, he was in the bedroom long enough to be shot four times. But there were no signs of a bedroom tussle. Instead it seems Neville abandoned his family & ran back downstairs. Being shot again on the stairs. Neville would have now been attempting to escape as he had already made the phone calls. Sheila caught up with him in the kitchen.
Was exiting through the kitchen the quickest way out ?
If it was me being shot at I would probably jump through the nearest window. But as I said, none of us really know how we'd react?
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If I knew the layout of the property I would head for the nearest door.
The police, relatives & juries view is that there were no phone calls from the house.
Jeremy crept upstairs & started shooting with a silencer/moderator attached. Everything had gone to plan with June, who was shot without resistance. However Neville woke up & got downstairs into the kitchen dispite being shot, either to escape or phone the police. He was not surprisingly caught up & beaten, perhaps because the gun was empty. Then fatally shot in the head with a reloaded gun.
Jeremy then returned upstairs & led a half asleep Sheila into the main bedroom & shot her. He panicked after realising she was still alive after the first shot & fired again.
When the twins were shot is neither here or there. Whether shot first or last, they did not wake up that night.
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All it tells up is that Ralph was beate at some stage. In fact you cannot tell from this that Sheila beat him or that Jeremy beat him? As neither of them was wounds to their bodies consistent with any kind of fight.
Exactly Grahame ;)
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How would phoning Jeremy have helped ? It was no secret he did not get on with Sheila. The first things Jeremy said to the police was how Sheila was a nutter & they didn't get on. Jeremy was also over 3 miles away & at 3am may not have answered the phone.
I am 6 feet & 13 stone. If my 8 stone daughter started firing a rifle I would try to overpower her. Even if it meant getting hit in the body. A rifle is nowhere near as powerful as a shotgun & body shots may not be fatal. Neville was able to run downstairs & put up a big fight after being shot in the torso four times upstairs & once on the stairs. Only being killed after a brutal downstairs beating & further head shots.
As I have never met Neville I would have no idea why he would call Jeremy but I 'imagine' that he may have thought he would need extra help in restraining Sheila. I'm only 8 stone but I'm not a pathetic, weak, delicate 'slip of a girl' that guiltiers try to portray Sheila as. I don't think she was either. BUT who said that the beating happened before the head shots? The head shots could easily have come first - at which point the rifle may have needed reloading. With no ammo left, she uses rifle to beat Neville.
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If I knew the layout of the property I would head for the nearest door.
The police, relatives & juries view is that there were no phone calls from the house.
Jeremy crept upstairs & started shooting with a silencer/moderator attached. Everything had gone to plan with June, who was shot without resistance. However Neville woke up & got downstairs into the kitchen dispite being shot, either to escape or phone the police. He was not surprisingly caught up & beaten, perhaps because the gun was empty. Then fatally shot in the head with a reloaded gun.
Jeremy then returned upstairs & led a half asleep Sheila into the main bedroom & shot her. He panicked after realising she was still alive after the first shot & fired again.
When the twins were shot is neither here or there. Whether shot first or last, they did not wake up that night.
Even many of the guilty supporters don't believe the silencer evidence. But read the statements relevant to this issue - don't rely on what you have read in books. Get your info straight from the horses mouth!!
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If it was me being shot at I would probably jump through the nearest window. But as I said, none of us really know how we'd react?
That is really true Grahame, people sometimes assume they would behave in certain ways in times of crisis and trauma but in fact shock causes us to behave in strange ways. The main thing I have noticed in my own behaviour is how everything slows down. We enter a different dimension.
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As I have never met Neville I would have no idea why he would call Jeremy but I 'imagine' that he may have thought he would need extra help in restraining Sheila. I'm only 8 stone but I'm not a pathetic, weak, delicate 'slip of a girl' that guiltiers try to portray Sheila as. I don't think she was either. BUT who said that the beating happened before the head shots? The head shots could easily have come first - at which point the rifle may have needed reloading. With no ammo left, she uses rifle to beat Neville.
Good points Caroline, totally agree. :)
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Good points Caroline, totally agree. :)
Why thank you Maggie!! ;)
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Head gun shots before the beating ?
In Sheila's case she must have been in a really psychotic state to continue beating someone after shooting them in the head & killing them. I thought Sheila & Neville had a good relationship ?
In Jeremy's case, he was/is a clever person & smooth operator. Can't see him losing it & beating a dead person. He would be much too focused on finishing off his plan. He will also know a beaten 6.4 man will not support the Sheila theory.
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Head gun shots before the beating ?
In Sheila's case she must have been in a really psychotic state to continue beating someone after shooting them in the head & killing them. I thought Sheila & Neville had a good relationship ?
In Jeremy's case, he was/is a clever person & smooth operator. Can't see him losing it & beating a dead person. He would be much too focused on finishing off his plan. He will also know a beaten 6.4 man will not support the Sheila theory.
Errr, I think that's the point!! Do you know anything about paranoid schizophrenia? Also I doubt that in that kind of state she would be looking for vital signs!!
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Head gun shots before the beating ?
In Sheila's case she must have been in a really psychotic state to continue beating someone after shooting them in the head & killing them. I thought Sheila & Neville had a good relationship ?
In Jeremy's case, he was/is a clever person & smooth operator. Can't see him losing it & beating a dead person. He would be much too focused on finishing off his plan. He will also know a beaten 6.4 man will not support the Sheila theory.
I don't understand the above (in bold), IF Neville was beaten and you don't think it was Sheila and Jeremy was "too clever" - who did it then?
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I don't think the beating was carried out 'after the head gun shots'. Certainly not by Jeremy, but as you said I am not an expert on Sheila's illness.
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Head gun shots before the beating ?
In Sheila's case she must have been in a really psychotic state to continue beating someone after shooting them in the head & killing them. I thought Sheila & Neville had a good relationship ?
In Jeremy's case, he was/is a clever person & smooth operator. Can't see him losing it & beating a dead person. He would be much too focused on finishing off his plan. He will also know a beaten 6.4 man will not support the Sheila theory.
Then why on earth did he need EIGHT shots to kill two sleeping six-year-olds if he was such a smooth operator?
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Then why on earth did he need EIGHT shots to kill two sleeping six-year-olds if he was such a smooth operator?
To make it seem like the killer was not a 'smooth operator'.
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To make it seem like the killer was not a 'smooth operator'.
You mean to make it look like it had been carried out by a paranoid schizophrenic? Hmmmmm?? Here's a theory; maybe it was actually carried out by a paranoid schizophrenic who had been behaving oddly since a party the previous weekend when she saw her ex husband (who she hoped to to rekindle a relationship with) with his girlfriend??
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To make it seem like the killer was not a 'smooth operator'.
Could be, but not likely. Imagine you are there to carry out FIVE murders, do you really think you have time to stage manage the individual killings? Personally I don´t think so. The killings of the poor little boys was overkill - it was PERSONAL, not cold, calculated with the motive of getting rid of them for money.
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You mean to make it look like it had been carried out by a paranoid schizophrenic? Hmmmmm?? Here's a theory; maybe it was actually carried out by a paranoid schizophrenic who had been behaving oddly since a party the previous weekend when she saw her ex husband (who she hoped to to rekindle a relationship with) with his girlfriend??
You could be right. Or you could be wrong !
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To make it seem like the killer was not a 'smooth operator'.
Is it not strange that someone unpracticed in the art of killing could, at his first attempt, become a smooth enough operator, to give the appearance of NOT being a "smooth operator."
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Could be, but not likely. Imagine you are there to carry out FIVE murders, do you really think you have time to stage manage the individual killings? Personally I don´t think so. The killings of the poor little boys was overkill - it was PERSONAL, not cold, calculated with the motive of getting rid of them for money.
There was not much stage managing was there ?
The twins & June were shot in bed. There was a big mess in the kitchen. Putting an open bible next to Sheila would not take long. Once everyone was dead Jeremy, if he was the killer would have had all the time he needed to do any stage managing.
If Jeremy could fire one shot into the twins, he could fire several shots. It would back up the 'shes a nutter' & 'gone crazy' quotes he gave the police later.
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If I knew the layout of the property I would head for the nearest door.
The police, relatives & juries view is that there were no phone calls from the house.
Jeremy crept upstairs & started shooting with a silencer/moderator attached. Everything had gone to plan with June, who was shot without resistance. However Neville woke up & got downstairs into the kitchen dispite being shot, either to escape or phone the police. He was not surprisingly caught up & beaten, perhaps because the gun was empty. Then fatally shot in the head with a reloaded gun.
Jeremy then returned upstairs & led a half asleep Sheila into the main bedroom & shot her. He panicked after realising she was still alive after the first shot & fired again.
When the twins were shot is neither here or there. Whether shot first or last, they did not wake up that night.
Unfortunately there is absolutely nothing to support all that. It remains at best just speculation in order to satisfy your own theory of what happened. We need facts and facts alone I'm afraid.
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Head gun shots before the beating ?
In Sheila's case she must have been in a really psychotic state to continue beating someone after shooting them in the head & killing them. I thought Sheila & Neville had a good relationship ?
In Jeremy's case, he was/is a clever person & smooth operator. Can't see him losing it & beating a dead person. He would be much too focused on finishing off his plan. He will also know a beaten 6.4 man will not support the Sheila theory.
So how else would you explain the lack of injuries to both Sheila and Jeremy consistent with a fight with someone?
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Errr, I think that's the point!! Do you know anything about paranoid schizophrenia? Also I doubt that in that kind of state she would be looking for vital signs!!
If my friend's son is anything to go by then schizophrenics appear to develop super strength in certain situations.
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To make it seem like the killer was not a 'smooth operator'.
Facts. Remember? We need facts to support such an accusation.
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You could be right. Or you could be wrong !
Ditto.
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Is it not strange that someone unpracticed in the art of killing could, at his first attempt, become a smooth enough operator, to give the appearance of NOT being a "smooth operator."
Even a soldier could not act like a "smooth" operator.
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You could be right. Or you could be wrong !
I could - as could you. Which is why I hate scenario's!! Point is, the case against Jeremy rests on two main issues - the silencer (which if you read up on, you will see there are some VERY suspicious discrepancies in both statements and forensic findings) and Julie Mugfords testimony which even the judge was weary of!! The jury were 10/2 and probably less given the way juries operate and much of the evidence was hidden from the defence. Do you think that's a fair trial?
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Unfortunately there is absolutely nothing to support all that. It remains at best just speculation in order to satisfy your own theory of what happened. We need facts and facts alone I'm afraid.
There was evidence.
June was shot in bed. Neville was shot in the bedroom & in the kitchen. Neville was beaten in the kitchen, either before or after death. Sheila was found in the main bedroom & the twins in bed.
Scenarios can be thought up as to how this occurred to support both Jeremy or Sheila. Will any new appeal look at the different possible scenarios and decide on the most likely ?
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There was evidence.
June was shot in bed. Neville was shot in the bedroom & in the kitchen. Neville was beaten in the kitchen, either before or after death. Sheila was found in the main bedroom & the twins in bed.
Scenarios can be thought up as to how this occurred to support both Jeremy or Sheila. Will any new appeal look at the different possible scenarios and decide on the most likely ?
No.
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There was evidence.
June was shot in bed. Neville was shot in the bedroom & in the kitchen. Neville was beaten in the kitchen, either before or after death. Sheila was found in the main bedroom & the twins in bed.
Scenarios can be thought up as to how this occurred to support both Jeremy or Sheila. Will any new appeal look at the different possible scenarios and decide on the most likely ?
That it was Jeremy? What evidence?
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I could - as could you. Which is why I hate scenario's!! Point is, the case against Jeremy rests on two main issues - the silencer (which if you read up on, you will see there are some VERY suspicious discrepancies in both statements and forensic findings) and Julie Mugfords testimony which even the judge was weary of!! The jury were 10/2 and probably less given the way juries operate and much of the evidence was hidden from the defence. Do you think that's a fair trial?
Mugford was not called to give evidence at Bambers appeal hearing Although she had travelled over from abroad. So assume the judges were satisfied & Bambers team had nothing to get their teeth into. They must of had the same 'ring of truth' opinion the 1985 defence team had. She has never retracted a word of her statement.
The testing of the silencer at the time showed it was Sheila's blood, or a combination of other household members. Either way the silencer was on the rifle. Didn't another test a few years later also show the same results ?
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Mugford was not called to give evidence at Bambers appeal hearing Although she had travelled over from abroad. So assume the judges were satisfied & Bambers team had nothing to get their teeth into. They must of had the same 'ring of truth' opinion the 1985 defence team had. She has never retracted a word of her statement.
The testing of the silencer at the time showed it was Sheila's blood, or a combination of other household members. Either way the silencer was on the rifle. Didn't another test a few years later also show the same results ?
I think that would be admitting to 'perjury' But she stated in The News of the World article that Jeremy NEVER admitted to her that he carried out the murders and yet she told Colin that Jeremy said HE left the scene via the kitchen window. She also changed the time of the phone call she received from Jeremy and LIED about the cheque book fraud incident.
The testing did NOT show it was Sheila's blood at all - the sample tested contained an enzyme (AK1) as did Sheila BUT so did Robert Boutflour who shared the same blood group. The silencer was handled by at LEAST 5 people prior to being tested and would NOT be allowed into evidence by today's standards!!
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Hi Adam. In a previous post you suggested that Sheila was led into the main bedroom to be killed? Is this plausible? Tests showed she wasn't drugged. Would she really not have fought for her life? Besides,if JB had killed her prior to his telephone call to police,can you perhaps explain to us why she was not found to be in a state of rigor mortis when discovered by EP (the other victims were) and also the fact that the first officers on the scene stated that Sheila had blood running from the corners of her mouth? Does this not suggest to you that she died much much later than the other victims,at a time when JB couldn't possibly have been present?
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There was evidence.
June was shot in bed. Neville was shot in the bedroom & in the kitchen. Neville was beaten in the kitchen, either before or after death. Sheila was found in the main bedroom & the twins in bed.
Scenarios can be thought up as to how this occurred to support both Jeremy or Sheila. Will any new appeal look at the different possible scenarios and decide on the most likely ?
I'm afraid I don't do senarios, as they are most likely to be wrong? There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Jeremy crept upstairs. No forensic. Nothing. Or that Sheila was lead anywhere. Where is the evidence for that? It is pure speculation by some very imaginative person.
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There have been claims that rigor mortis is visible in photographs of Nevill, June and the twins, and that those of Sheila Caffell show no rigor or lividity. This claim does not seem ever to have been adduced by a medical professional rather than a layperson.
Officers observed that wet blood had pooled in the crook of Sheila’s right arm. Congealed blood had also formed in the aperture of the lower neck wound. One possibility is that when Sheila was moved by officers at the scene, this plug became detached, and allowed blood accumulated within Sheila’s neck, viscous but not yet congealed, to run thickly beyond the entrance of the wound.
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There have been claims that rigor mortis is visible in photographs of Nevill, June and the twins, and that those of Sheila Caffell show no rigor or lividity. This claim does not seem ever to have been adduced by a medical professional rather than a layperson.
Officers observed that wet blood had pooled in the crook of Sheila’s right arm. Congealed blood had also formed in the aperture of the lower neck wound. One possibility is that when Sheila was moved by officers at the scene, this plug became detached, and allowed blood accumulated within Sheila’s neck, viscous but not yet congealed, to run thickly beyond the entrance of the wound.
If Sheila had rigor, how did the police manage to just move her hand in order to take the picture of the bloodstain on her nightdress?
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There are different scenarios which could be made to explain the state of the house when the police broke in.
The trouble with any Sheila scenario is there has to always be at least a 5 minute period of enough calm where Neville was able to make two phone calls during the chaos. The 80's dial up phones were slow & the phone numbers in that area had lots of digits. Jeremy may not have answered for a long period if he was sleeping. The police phone call may have taken a while, Neville having to give his name, address etc.
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There was not much stage managing was there ?
The twins & June were shot in bed. There was a big mess in the kitchen. Putting an open bible next to Sheila would not take long. Once everyone was dead Jeremy, if he was the killer would have had all the time he needed to do any stage managing.
If Jeremy could fire one shot into the twins, he could fire several shots. It would back up the 'shes a nutter' & 'gone crazy' quotes he gave the police later.
If Jeremy put the open bible next to Sheila why is there no bloodstain on the page that was resting in (what would have been) a large 'wet' pool of blood when it was placed there?
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There have been claims that rigor mortis is visible in photographs of Nevill, June and the twins, and that those of Sheila Caffell show no rigor or lividity. This claim does not seem ever to have been adduced by a medical professional rather than a layperson.
Officers observed that wet blood had pooled in the crook of Sheila’s right arm. Congealed blood had also formed in the aperture of the lower neck wound. One possibility is that when Sheila was moved by officers at the scene, this plug became detached, and allowed blood accumulated within Sheila’s neck, viscous but not yet congealed, to run thickly beyond the entrance of the wound.
We could go on speculating till the cows come home, couldn't we? My late partner was always called as the expert witness whenever there was a dispute in his field of expertise. The other side usually caved in and settled out of court when they came up against him. Was he always right?...............or did he just put up a stronger argument? What would have happened had he been challenged? After all, his was just HIS opinion.
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There are different scenarios which could be made to explain the state of the house when the police broke in.
The trouble with any Sheila scenario is there has to always be at least a 5 minute period of enough calm where Neville was able to make two phone calls during the chaos. The 80's dial up phones were slow & the phone numbers in that area had lots of digits. Jeremy may not have answered for a long period if he was sleeping. The police phone call may have taken a while, Neville having to give his name, address etc.
If ifs and buts again!!
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We could go on speculating till the cows come home, couldn't we? My late partner was always called as the expert witness whenever there was a dispute in his field of expertise. The other side usually caved in and settled out of court when they came up against him. Was he always right?...............or did he just put up a stronger argument? What would have happened had he been challenged? After all, his was just HIS opinion.
The big mistake with Dr. Craig's timing of the deaths is that he gave the same time of death for all of the victims. Which was the wrong time anyway. Perhaps a little bit more trouble on his part we would probably have the more accurate time for each one? But of course we are stuck with that silly time of 8am for all the vicims regardless. That is one reason why we cannot reconstruct any kind of senario as to what happened and in what order. Therefore any kind of senario for or against is just pure guesswork in my opinion.
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if he gave time of death as 8 am then how could JB have been convicted in the first place?
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If ifs and buts again!!
It's a fact the Neville would have to have at least a 5 minute window where he could make two phone calls.
Do you know why the bedroom phone was in the kitchen ? I have never read anything about a reason, except that it was moved after the killings to show why Neville was in the kitchen. Another poster advised me it is on another thread in the forum. But I too lazy to search !
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It's a fact the Neville would have to have at least a 5 minute window where he could make two phone calls.
Do you know why the bedroom phone was in the kitchen ? I have never read anything about a reason, except that it was moved after the killings to show why Neville was in the kitchen. Another poster advised me it is on another thread in the forum. But I too lazy to search !
It is NOT a fact at all, give that we don't know when the call(s) were made or how they fit into the course of events. As for your other question, yes, I do know but no one here is going to do your research for you if you can't be arsed to do it yourself!!
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It's a fact the Neville would have to have at least a 5 minute window where he could make two phone calls.
Do you know why the bedroom phone was in the kitchen ? I have never read anything about a reason, except that it was moved after the killings to show why Neville was in the kitchen. Another poster advised me it is on another thread in the forum. But I too lazy to search !
Hi Adam :)
There is no evidence that anyone moved the phones during, before or after the murders. What we do know is from the housekeeper and a BT engineer. The housekeeper claimed it was not unusual that the bedroom phone would be downstairs in the kitchen. The engineer clearly stated that a phone had been sent for repair because the storm the previous night/days? So this makes it likely that was the reason the bedroom phone was again in the kitchen..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It is NOT a fact at all, give that we don't know when the call(s) were made or how they fit into the course of events. As for your other question, yes, I do know but no one here is going to do your research for you if you can't be arsed to do it yourself!!
Are you telling him orffffffffff lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It's a fact the Neville would have to have at least a 5 minute window where he could make two phone calls.
Do you know why the bedroom phone was in the kitchen ? I have never read anything about a reason, except that it was moved after the killings to show why Neville was in the kitchen. Another poster advised me it is on another thread in the forum. But I too lazy to search !
That's a new take!!!! It sounds as if you're asking us to do the groundwork just so you can disagree with it.
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Thank you.
Well I have read the Wilkes book as well as lots of information on the internet & Bambers own site. But have only read one reason, from a Daily Mail reporter, which seemed perfectly feasible if Jeremy was the killer. There is no reason why Sheila would move the phone. Guess I will never know.
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Hi Adam :)
There is no evidence that anyone moved the phones during, before or after the murders. What we do know is from the housekeeper and a BT engineer. The housekeeper claimed it was not unusual that the bedroom phone would be downstairs in the kitchen. The engineer clearly stated that a phone had been sent for repair because the storm the previous night/days? So this makes it likely that was the reason the bedroom phone was again in the kitchen..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thank you. Now I know.
Was the phone that had been taken away the one with the last number dialled display function ?
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Thank you.
Well I have read the Wilkes book as well as lots of information on the internet & Bambers own site. But have only read one reason, from a Daily Mail reporter, which seemed perfectly feasible if Jeremy was the killer. There is no reason why Sheila would move the phone. Guess I will never know.
So you have limited knowledge. There is lots of information here, I have given you the link - if you're interested enough 'in the case' then you'll make use of it. If not then I would question why you are here?
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Thank you. Now I know.
Was the phone that had been taken away the one with the last number dialled display function ?
I'm not sure, but it was Neville that sent it off for repair....Its fault was thought to have occurred during the storm if that helps. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Are you telling him orffffffffff lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
No Patti, but something tells me something ....... if you know what I mean? ;)
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No Patti, but something tells me something ....... if you know what I mean? ;)
D'you smell a rhodent of some sort? ;D
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D'you smell a rhodent of some sort? ;D
I can even hear the tread wheel spinning!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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So you have limited knowledge. There is lots of information here, I have given you the link - if you're interested enough 'in the case' then you'll make use of it. If not then I would question why you are here?
Depends what you call limited knowledge. I am no Mike Tesco but have read a good book, internet articles, Mugfords statements, Jeremys police interview transcripts, appeal judgement judgements etc. Hopefully this board will teach me more. The views on this thread regarding those few minutes inside the house are interesting.
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I smelled it straight away with my sticky beak. ;)
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Depends what you call limited knowledge. I am no Mike Tesco but have read a good book, internet articles, Mugfords statements, Jeremys police interview transcripts, appeal judgement judgements etc. Hopefully this board will teach me more. The views on this thread regarding those few minutes inside the house are interesting.
Where did you read Julie's statement?
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Because he may have thought she was intending to just shoot herself!!
What?! You don't think that he would have tried to stop her killing herself?
The sequence of events, as suggested by Martin is quite simply, unbelievable.
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It is NOT a fact at all, give that we don't know when the call(s) were made or how they fit into the course of events. As for your other question, yes, I do know but no one here is going to do your research for you if you can't be arsed to do it yourself!!
Ringing Jeremy & the police. Words such as 'gun' & 'crazy'. There was only one time when those phone calls were made, when Sheila was going crazy with a gun.
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Where did you read Julie's statement?
Uk Justice forum.
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What?! You don't think that he would have tried to stop her killing herself?
The sequence of events, as suggested by Martin is quite simply, unbelievable.
Of course BUT June may have been talking to her at the time while he slipped away to make the call. This is why I HATE scenario's. Everyone has an opinion but we can;t KNOW what any of them actually did/didn't do. You don't have to agree with me or Martin, it's just 'opinion'.
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Maybe there were no calls made ! ???
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Maybe there were no calls made ! ???
And maybe there were!! ???
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if he gave time of death as 8 am then how could JB have been convicted in the first place?
Exactly. That has been my contention right the way through.
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Of course BUT June may have been talking to her at the time while he slipped away to make the call. This is why I HATE scenario's. Everyone has an opinion but we can;t KNOW what any of them actually did/didn't do. You don't have to agree with me or Martin, it's just 'opinion'.
That sounds even more implausible.
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Thank you.
Well I have read the Wilkes book as well as lots of information on the internet & Bambers own site. But have only read one reason, from a Daily Mail reporter, which seemed perfectly feasible if Jeremy was the killer. There is no reason why Sheila would move the phone. Guess I will never know.
I think that because of the murders we may tend to read into the case a lot of things that may have been done quite innocently as we all do things like move things from place to place. But in actual fact such things aren't really of any significance at all. So our finding reasons for them might really serve no purpose at all?
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Hi Adam. In a previous post you suggested that Sheila was led into the main bedroom to be killed? Is this plausible? Tests showed she wasn't drugged. Would she really not have fought for her life? Besides,if JB had killed her prior to his telephone call to police,can you perhaps explain to us why she was not found to be in a state of rigor mortis when discovered by EP (the other victims were) and also the fact that the first officers on the scene stated that Sheila had blood running from the corners of her mouth? Does this not suggest to you that she died much much later than the other victims,at a time when JB couldn't possibly have been present?
If Sheila was asleep, Jeremy, may have woken her up & told her she needed to go into the main bedroom. Sheila would have trusted her brother. Once in the bedroom Jeremy could have pushed her to the floor, held her down & shot her. That would only take a few seconds to do. Sheila would not be expecting this to happen & may have also been half asleep.
Answered the other bits earlier.
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If Sheila was asleep, Jeremy, may have woken her up & told her she needed to go into the main bedroom. Sheila would have trusted her brother. Once in the bedroom Jeremy could have pushed her to the floor, held her down & shot her. That would only take a few seconds to do. Sheila would not be expecting this to happen & may have also been half asleep.
Answered the other bits earlier.
It really is all speculation isn't it.
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If Sheila was asleep, Jeremy, may have woken her up & told her she needed to go into the main bedroom. Sheila would have trusted her brother. Once in the bedroom Jeremy could have pushed her to the floor, held her down & shot her. That would only take a few seconds to do. Sheila would not be expecting this to happen & may have also been half asleep.
Answered the other bits earlier.
But what would have been Jeremy's motive other than the greed it was SAID to have been because nothing else could be laid against him. Weigh this up against the FACT that he had no "previous" compared with the FACT of Sheila's mental state and a life spiralling out of her control and IMO, it's much more likely to have been Sheila.
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If Sheila was asleep, Jeremy, may have woken her up & told her she needed to go into the main bedroom. Sheila would have trusted her brother. Once in the bedroom Jeremy could have pushed her to the floor, held her down & shot her. That would only take a few seconds to do. Sheila would not be expecting this to happen & may have also been half asleep.
Answered the other bits earlier.
He could have done but I am curious Adam how you can believe that a man with no personality disorders could have carried out such a crime. He had no history of violence at all, no abuse of girlfriends or fighting etc., he was known to hate killing animals and was seen as a gentle person or in others words as a whimp. How could such a person kill the 5 closest members of his family in cold blood?
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But what would have been Jeremy's motive other than the greed it was SAID to have been because nothing else could be laid against him. Weigh this up against the FACT that he had no "previous" compared with the FACT of Sheila's mental state and a life spiralling out of her control and IMO, it's much more likely to have been Sheila.
He would only have needed ONE motive though.
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If Sheila was asleep, Jeremy, may have woken her up & told her she needed to go into the main bedroom. Sheila would have trusted her brother. Once in the bedroom Jeremy could have pushed her to the floor, held her down & shot her. That would only take a few seconds to do. Sheila would not be expecting this to happen & may have also been half asleep.
Answered the other bits earlier.
Why didn´t he just shoot her in her own bedroom? More troublesome getting her into their parents´bedroom - and for whatever reason would Jeremy choose the parents´bedroom? Makes no sense. Besides, there was no blood in Sheila´s room, none at all, don´t you think that there would have been some transfer from the carnage that had taken place?
Finally, I cannot imagine that Sheila slept throough dogs barking people screaming, shots and general commotion.
This scenario is faulty.
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Why didn´t he just shoot her in her own bedroom? More troublesome getting her into their parents´bedroom - and for whatever reason would Jeremy choose the parents´bedroom? Makes no sense. Besides, there was no blood in Sheila´s room, none at all, don´t you think that there would have been some transfer from the carnage that had taken place?
Finally, I cannot imagine that Sheila slept throough dogs barking people screaming, shots and general commotion.
This scenario is faulty.
Remember what Ann Eaton said also? That she was told by one of the police officers that both June and Sheila were on the bed. A Bible was on Sheila's chest and the rifle was between them. That is what Ann herself had said.
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He would only have needed ONE motive though.
And there was no proof that the one which was chosen to fit was the truth.
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There would be no reason to move June from the bed and I'm willing to accept that by dint of her own efforts she had managed to move out of bed and was finished off with two shots right between the eyes,which is where the DNA may have come from. What does Jeremy say about the silencer? Did Sheila walk over her mother to get to the far side of the master bedroom,necessitating her getting blood on the soles of her feet? If Jeremy is the guilty party he has to bring Sheila out of her bedroom or forensics would be able to prove she had never left that location and therefore could have taken no part in the killings.
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There would be no reason to move June from the bed and I'm willing to accept that by dint of her own efforts she had managed to move out of bed and was finished off with two shots right between the eyes,which is where the DNA may have come from. What does Jeremy say about the silencer? Did Sheila walk over her mother to get to the far side of the master bedroom,necessitating her getting blood on the soles of her feet? If Jeremy is the guilty party he has to bring Sheila out of her bedroom or forensics would be able to prove she had never left that location and therefore could have taken no part in the killings.
Steve, we were previously told her feet were clean.
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Steve, we were previously told her feet were clean.
Steve, we were previously told her hands were clean as well. ;)
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Steve, we were previously told her hands were clean as well. ;)
:D :D :D :D
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:D :D :D :D
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Steve, we were previously told her feet were clean.
On Jeremy's page it tells us there was blood on the sole of her left foot. Did pathology at the time make a distinction between feet and soles? Why would Sheila ritualistically wash and then move into a bloodied area? After a psychotic episode she suddenly becomes calm at the time the Defence require and decides to take her own life..http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/how-and-why-did-sheila-do-it
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On Jeremy's page it tells us there was blood on the sole of her left foot. Did pathology at the time make a distinction between feet and soles? Why would Sheila ritualistically wash and then move into a bloodied area? After a psychotic episode she suddenly becomes calm at the time the Defence require and decides to take her own life..http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/how-and-why-did-sheila-do-it
Steve, I won't attempt to second guess what distinctions pathology may, or not, have made and although I've never experienced a psychotic episode I can imagine that, just as one calms down from losing ones temper, a period of perhaps deep calm/lethargy/tiredness follows a psychotic episode.
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Why didn´t he just shoot her in her own bedroom? More troublesome getting her into their parents´bedroom - and for whatever reason would Jeremy choose the parents´bedroom? Makes no sense. Besides, there was no blood in Sheila´s room, none at all, don´t you think that there would have been some transfer from the carnage that had taken place?
Finally, I cannot imagine that Sheila slept throough dogs barking people screaming, shots and general commotion.
This scenario is faulty.
Jeremy had to show that Sheila had been moving around the house. Why not put her in the main bedroom, where two other people had been shot ? The first 'rushed' shot didn't kill her. Resulting in the second shot.
Would there be blood on Jeremy to transfer to Sheila's bedroom ? The twins & Junes killings were straight forward. Nevilles was more difficult but Jeremy could always take his shoes off before getting Sheila.
Sheila may not have heard anything, especially if the bedroom door was shut. The twins & Junes killings were quick. The kitchen fight was downstairs & may have been quick.
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Jeremy had to show that Sheila had been moving around the house. Why not put her in the main bedroom, where two other people had been shot ? The first 'rushed' shot didn't kill her. Resulting in the second shot.
Would there be blood on Jeremy to transfer to Sheila's bedroom ? The twins & Junes killings were straight forward. Nevilles killing was more difficult but Jeremy could always take his shoes off before getting Sheila.
Sheila may not have heard anything, especially if the bedroom door was shut. The twins & Junes killings were quick. The kitchen fight was downstairs & may have been quick.
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Or Sheila had heard the noise & wandered into her parents bedroom. Jeremy entering the bedroom from downstairs & taking her by surprise before she had realised what had happened.
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That sounds even more implausible.
Unlike riding cross country wearing a wetsuit, or finding a silencer in a cupboard that had already been searched by 5 police officers that when tested, is like the candy store version of forensics, or entering a house through a window and not alerting even the dog and leaving no trace of yourself, or an autopsy report that when in statement form becomes the complete opposite of the written notes of the pathologist, or an open bible placed in a pool of blood that has no stain on the page that was actually resting in it? I could go one but I won't!! Most of these aren't even scenario's, they're 'supposed' to be facts!! Laughable!!
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Or Sheila had heard the noise & wandered into her parents bedroom. Jeremy entering the bedroom from downstairs & taking her by surprise before she had realised what had happened.
I'll ask you again..... I think it was RB who called Jeremy a pansy, some called him a wimp, others said he was gentle and didn't like killing animals. He had no history of violence to girlfriends or anyone else, he has been tested at least 27 times and found to have no Personality Disorders or mental illness so how on earth did he shoot the 5 people closest to him without it affecting him at all? How did he manage to that, it must have been pretty awful in that farmhouse that night?
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You will have to ask Jeremy !
There will be conflicting stories of Jeremys relationship with these people. Jeremy will no doubt speak about a loving relationship & idylic countrysides.
Other people have heard about his father being 'ready to be put to pasture' & 'insane mother' who he had not spoken to for years. Sheila he told the police was a 'nutter' he 'didn't get on with'. Did Jeremy know the twins that well ?
Jeremy did not seem too upset afterwards. Which made the police & relatives even more suspicious.
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Unlike riding cross country wearing a wetsuit, or finding a silencer in a cupboard that had already been searched by 5 police officers that when tested, is like the candy store version of forensics, or entering a house through a window and not alerting even the dog and leaving no trace of yourself, or an autopsy report that when in statement form becomes the complete opposite of the written notes of the pathologist, or an open bible placed in a pool of blood that has no stain on the page that was actually resting in it? I could go one but I won't!! Most of these aren't even scenario's, they're 'supposed' to be facts!! Laughable!!
That's all as maybe, but it doesn't deal with the idea that Neville may have left Shelia to roam around the house with a firearm, while he first called Jeremy and then the Police.
The further points you raise, which are all valid and highly debatable, are probably best discussed on other, more relevant threads.
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Unlike riding cross country wearing a wetsuit, or finding a silencer in a cupboard that had already been searched by 5 police officers that when tested, is like the candy store version of forensics, or entering a house through a window and not alerting even the dog and leaving no trace of yourself, or an autopsy report that when in statement form becomes the complete opposite of the written notes of the pathologist, or an open bible placed in a pool of blood that has no stain on the page that was actually resting in it? I could go one but I won't!! Most of these aren't even scenario's, they're 'supposed' to be facts!! Laughable!!
People in wet suits are perfectly capable of riding bikes. Relations have said there are three cross country bike rides to the farm which avoid the main roads. Mugford said Junes bike was first seen by her outside Jeremys house about 4 days before the murders. Bamber did not deny this when interviewed by the police.
It is possible to enter windows quietly. Why should a trace be left ? Gloves can be worn.
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That's all as maybe, but it doesn't deal with the idea that Neville may have left Shelia to roam around the house with a firearm, while he first called Jeremy and then the Police.
The further points you raise, which are all valid and highly debatable, are probably best discussed on other, more relevant threads.
Would Neville go into another room & risk Sheila roaming around the house with a gun ?
Oh sorry I forgot, she was already doing this otherwise two 3am phone calls would not be made.
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That's all as maybe, but it doesn't deal with the idea that Neville may have left Shelia to roam around the house with a firearm, while he first called Jeremy and then the Police.
The further points you raise, which are all valid and highly debatable, are probably best discussed on other, more relevant threads.
Why would he suspect that she would kill the family, she was his daughter? She had had psychotic attacks before - why should he think that this one would end in tragedy? I don't think anyone here is in a position to know what Neville would or wouldn't do and people often behave out of character in stressful situations. All of the scenarios are equally possible but at the end of the day, they are also totally useless because 'we weren't there'!!
As for keeping on topic, I think everyone here is guilty of shifting from time to time!!
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Why would he suspect that she would kill the family, she was his daughter? She had had psychotic attacks before - why should he think that this one would end in tragedy? I don't think anyone here is in a position to know what Neville would or wouldn't do and people often behave out of character in stressful situations. All of the scenarios are equally possible but at the end of the day, they are also totally useless because 'we weren't there'!!
As for keeping on topic, I think everyone here is guilty of shifting from time to time!!
Because she had one of the guns and was going berserk.
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Jeremy had to show that Sheila had been moving around the house. Why not put her in the main bedroom, where two other people had been shot ? The first 'rushed' shot didn't kill her. Resulting in the second shot.
Would there be blood on Jeremy to transfer to Sheila's bedroom ? The twins & Junes killings were straight forward. Nevilles killing was more difficult but Jeremy could always take his shoes off before getting Sheila.
Sheila may not have heard anything, especially if the bedroom door was shut. The twins & Junes killings were quick. The kitchen fight was downstairs & may have been quick.
Not that quick, it would all have taken time. It is just a normal house, not some sort of huge bunker or manson. It would have been noisy, very noisy. Sheila could not have slept through that - my opinion.
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Because she had one of the guns and was going berserk.
That's not what he said in the call to Jeremy!! He said, 'Sheila has gone crazy, she has got the gun' which is quite different to going crazy 'with' a gun!! There is no mention of the word 'berserk' relating to the call he made to Jeremy.
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Jeremy had to show that Sheila had been moving around the house. Why not put her in the main bedroom, where two other people had been shot ? The first 'rushed' shot didn't kill her. Resulting in the second shot.
Would there be blood on Jeremy to transfer to Sheila's bedroom ? The twins & Junes killings were straight forward. Nevilles killing was more difficult but Jeremy could always take his shoes off before getting Sheila.
Sheila may not have heard anything, especially if the bedroom door was shut. The twins & Junes killings were quick. The kitchen fight was downstairs & may have been quick.
June's killing was quick? How so? She managed to get out of bed,made her way around the bed and back again before she was killed with a shot between the eyes in the doorway. I certainly wouldn't call that a quick killing!
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People in wet suits are perfectly capable of riding bikes[. Relations have said there are three cross country bike rides to the farm which avoid the main roads. Mugford said Junes bike was first seen by her outside Jeremys house about 4 days before the murders. Bamber did not deny this when interviewed by the police.
It is possible to enter windows quietly. Why should a trace be left ? Gloves can be worn.
I know he didn't deny it, he borrowed it for Julie!! The rest is as good as fiction!!
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What prompts Neville to phone Jeremy? You seem to be suggesting that the first shots are fired while he is in conversation with Jeremy. If it were the case, that at the the moment he made the call Shelia was running around the house with a gun, would he not have first tried to disarm her?
Why phone Jeremy first, before calling the Police?
That's a stupid question.
I’m not saying he must have heard shots. He may have heard something to make him think that he ought to phone the police, that's all.
In Bonnett's log he says "My daughter has gone berserk." I think you are one of those people who deliberately confuse the two logs, to make it sound as if the Bamber supporters think that Nevill would have phoned Jeremy after things had escalated to that point. Sneaky!
HIS ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION COULD HAVE CHANGED DURING HIS CALL TO JEREMY.
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There have been claims that rigor mortis is visible in photographs of Nevill, June and the twins, and that those of Sheila Caffell show no rigor or lividity. This claim does not seem ever to have been adduced by a medical professional rather than a layperson.
Officers observed that wet blood had pooled in the crook of Sheila’s right arm. Congealed blood had also formed in the aperture of the lower neck wound. One possibility is that when Sheila was moved by officers at the scene, this plug became detached, and allowed blood accumulated within Sheila’s neck, viscous but not yet congealed, to run thickly beyond the entrance of the wound.
This post is copied from an article by Ian Stephens, better known as starryian, at this blog.
http://crimeheartsandcoronets.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html
Here is the relavant passage
There have been claims that rigor mortis is visible in photographs of Nevill, June and the twins, and that those of Sheila Caffell show no rigor or lividity. This claim does not seem ever to have been adduced by a medical professional rather than a layperson.
A consistent feature of objections to the Crown case is that they rest upon arguments from personal incredulity. Surely the blood on Sheila’s neck couldn’t look as “fresh” as it does in the photographs if she’d been dead for at least six hours?
Well, yes, it could. Officers observed that wet blood had pooled in the crook of Sheila’s right arm. Congealed blood had also formed in the aperture of the lower neck wound. One possibility is that when Sheila was moved by officers at the scene, this plug became detached, and allowed blood accumulated within Sheila’s neck, viscous but not yet congealed, to run thickly beyond the entrance of the wound.
Stephens also mocks the Bamber supporters for thinking that Nevill would have phoned the police in a “hail of bullets.”
There is something darkly comic about the image of Nevill Bamber, under a hale of bullets, leafing through the phone book to get hold of the number for his local station instead of dialling 999.
As a Magistrate he might well have had the local police number in his head.
As for the hail of bullets, that shows typical guilter dishonesty. Of course, the idea is that Nevill would have made the phone call to Jeremy before anyone had been shot and phoned the police when it seemed to him that Sheila had gone “berserk.”
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Jeremy's call to police (3:36am) - (1) - "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", (3) - "He has got the gun, he has gone crazy, come quickly"...
When Jeremy was arrested and interviewed, he challenged the wording recorded in phone log 3:36am, by insisting that when he spoke to police on that occasion, that he did not say, (1) - Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", he told his interviewers that his fathers words were almost certainly, (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", and that it was the person who received his call who changed "She" into "Sheila"...
Now, if this is true, and I have previously argued with Jeremy regarding this on many occasions, face to face, over the phone, and in correspondence, then lets say it was the recipient of Jeremys call to police at 3:36am who changed, "She" into "Sheila", it surely infers that the recipient of Jeremys call at 3:36am, was privy to information received earlier in the form of Ralph Bambers telephone call to police timed at 3:26am, where he said, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns"...
The privilege of knowing what had been said at the time of Ralphs call to police (3:26am) had a bearing on the way information given by Jeremy in his call to police (3:36am) was altered, from (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", into (1) - "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly"...
Changing what was said by Jeremy at the time of his call (3:36am) was designed to make it appear that Jeremy had planted the idea in the minds of the police, that Sheila had shot everyone, and that she must have then gone on to take her own life, when all along, if Jeremy did not mention Sheila by name, but had merely said, (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", how was Jeremy to know to whom his father was referring to at the time of his fathers call to him (3:25am), and at the time of his call to police (3:36am). By the same token, when Ralph made his call to police (3:26am) and he told them, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns", surely it must be clear to everyone that police knew it was Mr Bambers daughter who was going berserk back at the farmhouse, so that by the time Jeremy gets around to making his own call (3:36am) to police, the police already know who the "She" is, that Jeremy makes mention of when he spoke to police in his 3:36am telephone call to them, which permits the recipient of Jeremys call to substitute the wording, "She", for "Sheila"...
If this is what happened, then it helps to establish that police received two telephone calls that morning, one from the scene at 3:26am, where Ralph Bamber told police, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns", and another telephone call 10 minutes later, made by Jeremy to police, where he told them, (2) - " She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly" - both logs were eventually merged into the same one, without an explanation for why a crucial part of what Jeremy had told police (She), was altered (Sheila)...
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Hi Neil. Sheila could have sneaked upstairs and started shooting whilst Nevill was on phone to JB. However,I don't agree with the part in Martin's scenario that Nevill hears shooting and calls the Police. Surely he would have dropped the phone and ran to his wife's aid - not waste precious time listing all the weapons in the house to EP down the phone line?
Suppose there were three stages of escalation.
1 Sheila is quarrelling with Nevill downstairs and at some point gets the gun and goes upstairs with it.
Nevill is concerned and thinks of phoning the police but decides against it. Police cars and all the rest might upset her still more and there would be a story in the local papers. So he decides to phone Jeremy.
2 While talking to Jeremy, he hears something which makes him think that the situation is more grave than he thought, so he thinks he had better phone the police after all.
3 He rushes upstairs to find out what is happening. It’s important to remember that he would not naturally assume that Sheila would shoot his wife. Even if he had heard shots he would not know what Sheila was shooting at. He would not have got the full picture until he saw the scene in the bedroom.
This is where pro guilt people go wrong. They appear to assume that if Sheila had taken the gun Nevill would immediately assume that her intention was to shoot other family members. That doesn’t have any compelling logic behind it. I would imagine that his first thought would be for Sheila’s own safety. He might well have feared that she might shoot herself.
People with mental health problems are far more likely to commit suicide than to kill other family members. He would have been thinking about what might be the best course of action to help her, not about storming at her to save the others.
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Jeremy's call to police (3:36am) - (1) - "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", (3) - "He has got the gun, he has gone crazy, come quickly"...
When Jeremy was arrested and interviewed, he challenged the wording recorded in phone log 3:36am, by insisting that when he spoke to police on that occasion, that he did not say, (1) - Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", he told his interviewers that his fathers words were almost certainly, (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", and that it was the person who received his call who changed "She" into "Sheila"...
Now, if this is true, and I have previously argued with Jeremy regarding this on many occasions, face to face, over the phone, and in correspondence, then lets say it was the recipient of Jeremys call to police at 3:36am who changed, "She" into "Sheila", it surely infers that the recipient of Jeremys call at 3:36am, was privy to information received earlier in the form of Ralph Bambers telephone call to police timed at 3:26am, where he said, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns"...
The privilege of knowing what had been said at the time of Ralphs call to police (3:26am) had a bearing on the way information given by Jeremy in his call to police (3:36am) was altered, from (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", into (1) - "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly"...
Changing what was said by Jeremy at the time of his call (3:36am) was designed to make it appear that Jeremy had planted the idea in the minds of the police, that Sheila had shot everyone, and that she must have then gone on to take her own life, when all along, if Jeremy did not mention Sheila by name, but had merely said, (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", how was Jeremy to know to whom his father was referring to at the time of his fathers call to him (3:25am), and at the time of his call to police (3:36am). By the same token, when Ralph made his call to police (3:26am) and he told them, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns", surely it must be clear to everyone that police knew it was Mr Bambers daughter who was going berserk back at the farmhouse, so that by the time Jeremy gets around to making his own call (3:36am) to police, the police already know who the "She" is, that Jeremy makes mention of when he spoke to police in his 3:36am telephone call to them, which permits the recipient of Jeremys call to substitute the wording, "She", for "Sheila"...
If this is what happened, then it helps to establish that police received two telephone calls that morning, one from the scene at 3:26am, where Ralph Bamber told police, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns", and another telephone call 10 minutes later, made by Jeremy to police, where he told them, (2) - " She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly" - both logs were eventually merged into the same one, without an explanation for why a crucial part of what Jeremy had told police (She), was altered (Sheila)...
So, it wasn't Jeremy who told police in his call (3:36am) to them that "Sheila has got the gun", it had been Ralph who had alerted police in his own call (3;26am) to the fact, that "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns". By altering the wording of Jeremy's call to police (3:36am), from "She" to "Sheila", it allowed the prosecution to argue as part of their case during trial, and since, that Jeremy had planted the idea in the minds of police that Sheila had the gun and that she had killed everyone, and taken her own life, when all along this was not true - Ralph Bamber was the person who alerted police to it being, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns"...
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Jeremy's call to police (3:36am) - (1) - "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", (3) - "He has got the gun, he has gone crazy, come quickly"...
When Jeremy was arrested and interviewed, he challenged the wording recorded in phone log 3:36am, by insisting that when he spoke to police on that occasion, that he did not say, (1) - Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", he told his interviewers that his fathers words were almost certainly, (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", and that it was the person who received his call who changed "She" into "Sheila"...
Now, if this is true, and I have previously argued with Jeremy regarding this on many occasions, face to face, over the phone, and in correspondence, then lets say it was the recipient of Jeremys call to police at 3:36am who changed, "She" into "Sheila", it surely infers that the recipient of Jeremys call at 3:36am, was privy to information received earlier in the form of Ralph Bambers telephone call to police timed at 3:26am, where he said, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns"...
The privilege of knowing what had been said at the time of Ralphs call to police (3:26am) had a bearing on the way information given by Jeremy in his call to police (3:36am) was altered, from (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", into (1) - "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly"...
Changing what was said by Jeremy at the time of his call (3:36am) was designed to make it appear that Jeremy had planted the idea in the minds of the police, that Sheila had shot everyone, and that she must have then gone on to take her own life, when all along, if Jeremy did not mention Sheila by name, but had merely said, (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", how was Jeremy to know to whom his father was referring to at the time of his fathers call to him (3:25am), and at the time of his call to police (3:36am). By the same token, when Ralph made his call to police (3:26am) and he told them, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns", surely it must be clear to everyone that police knew it was Mr Bambers daughter who was going berserk back at the farmhouse, so that by the time Jeremy gets around to making his own call (3:36am) to police, the police already know who the "She" is, that Jeremy makes mention of when he spoke to police in his 3:36am telephone call to them, which permits the recipient of Jeremys call to substitute the wording, "She", for "Sheila"...
If this is what happened, then it helps to establish that police received two telephone calls that morning, one from the scene at 3:26am, where Ralph Bamber told police, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns", and another telephone call 10 minutes later, made by Jeremy to police, where he told them, (2) - " She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly" - both logs were eventually merged into the same one, without an explanation for why a crucial part of what Jeremy had told police (She), was altered (Sheila)...
And something else
“My daughter has got hold of one of my guns” contains a reference to a collection of guns. Jeremy did not tell them about a collection at that stage. What copper would add a little creativity of his own in his log entries.
I mean, it’s like a Monty Python sketch. If somebody reports a stolen car, the cop wouldn’t write down “says one of his cars has been stolen“. Bonnett’s log is not a paraphrase of West’s log, unless Bonnett is somebody like Eric Idle.
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What?! You don't think that he would have tried to stop her killing herself?
The sequence of events, as suggested by Martin is quite simply, unbelievable.
You are a clod.
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That's a stupid question.
I’m not saying he must have heard shots. He may have heard something to make him think that he ought to phone the police, that's all.
In Bonnett's log he says "My daughter has gone berserk." I think you are one of those people who deliberately confuse the two logs, to make it sound as if the Bamber supporters think that Nevill would have phoned Jeremy after things had escalated to that point. Sneaky!
HIS ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION COULD HAVE CHANGED DURING HIS CALL TO JEREMY.
Things had escalated to the point where Ralph apparently told Jeremy that Shelia had got a gun and was going crazy. I would never try to confuse any situation, just retain an open mind at all times.
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You are a clod.
Don't type at me like that! ;D
If you can't cope with having your theories challenged then perhaps this forum isn't the best place for you.
For the record, I happen to believe that Jeremy's conviction is hugely questionable.
If Ralf considered the situation to be serious enough, to call Jeremy and ask him to come over and help, then I can't believe that he hadn't first of all, forcibly tried to disarm her.
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When Jeremy was arrested and interviewed, he challenged the wording recorded in phone log 3:36am, . . .
Can you post the specific page of the inteview you are referring to (or give the date and page number of the statement taken)?
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Don't type at me like that! ;D
If you can't cope with having your theories challenged then perhaps this forum isn't the best place for you.
For the record, I happen to believe that Jeremy's conviction is hugely questionable.
If Ralf considered the situation to be serious enough, to call Jeremy and ask him to come over and help, then I can't believe that he hadn't first of all, forcibly tried to disarm her.
Just because it's difficult for you to believe, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Having grown up with a paranoid schizophrenic, I can well understand why he wouldn't have tried to forcibly do anything other than try to humour her!! She would have seen 'any' confrontation as a physical threat.
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This post is copied from an article by Ian Stephens, better known as starryian, at this blog.
http://crimeheartsandcoronets.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html
Here is the relavant passage
Stephens also mocks the Bamber supporters for thinking that Nevill would have phoned the police in a “hail of bullets.”
As a Magistrate he might well have had the local police number in his head.
As for the hail of bullets, that shows typical guilter dishonesty. Of course, the idea is that Nevill would have made the phone call to Jeremy before anyone had been shot and phoned the police when it seemed to him that Sheila had gone “berserk.”
Thanks for that Martin, perhaps 'Adam' might like to explain?
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Thanks for that Martin, perhaps 'Adam' might like to explain?
Yes I did use a quote from 'Crimes, Hearts & Coronets' in answer to another post. Is that a problem ?
Well done to the spotter.
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Even many of the guilty supporters don't believe the silencer evidence. But read the statements relevant to this issue - don't rely on what you have read in books. Get your info straight from the horses mouth!!
Anyone in particular!! ;) ;D
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Don't type at me like that! ;D
If you can't cope with having your theories challenged then perhaps this forum isn't the best place for you.
For the record, I happen to believe that Jeremy's conviction is hugely questionable.
If Ralf considered the situation to be serious enough, to call Jeremy and ask him to come over and help, then I can't believe that he hadn't first of all, forcibly tried to disarm her.
My thoughts also.
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I think it most likely that June was shot first while Neville was downstairs phoning Jeremy. Nevill hears the shots and ends the call to Jeremy and then phones the police. He goes upstairs to confront Sheila and she shoots him. Few people would face a person with a gun who is shooting at them. Nevill then retreats downstairs and is shot again on the stairs. There then follows the struggle in the kitchen with Nevill already mortally wounded. Sheila goes back upstairs after killing Nevill and June and then shoots the children. She may not have needed to reload until after Nevill and June were both dead.
I regard the above as the most likely sequence of events. If there is a reason why it could not have happened like that then I would like to hear it. It has certain advantages over other theories such as providing an explanation for Bonnett's log and for why Jeremy heard the engaged tone when he called Nevill back. If you don't believe Jeremy, then why do you think he would make up hearing the engaged tone?
Nevill 8 shots, June 7
Tot 15 - too many shots for the magazine (plus maybe 1 in the chamber) to hold. She (if it was Shelia) would have to reload after a max of 11 shots.
I personally don't think Sheila would have loaded a mag. to full (10) and inserted a bullet in the breach ready to go off killing.
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Would Neville go into another room & risk Sheila roaming around the house with a gun ?
Oh sorry I forgot, she was already doing this otherwise two 3am phone calls would not be made.
No, I don't think so!
Nevill would have tried to disarm her.
Your questioning follows my own reasoning very closely.
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Good.
It just seems more likely that there were no calls from the house. As previously said it would take 5 minutes to make the two calls. At no time has any police officer said they heard from Neville. Jeremy said he received a call from Neville, which cannot be proved or disproved. It is a fact that Jeremy called Mugford at around this time, probably before phoning the police. If he had phoned Mugford after getting a call from Neville, he wasted valuble time while Sheila was in the house with a gun. Why ?
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No, I don't think so!
Nevill would have tried to disarm her.
Your questioning follows my own reasoning very closely.
thats assuming hes thinking in a completely logical manner at 3am in the morning.
he had been somewhat deprived of sleep.
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Suppose there were three stages of escalation.
1 Sheila is quarrelling with Nevill downstairs and at some point gets the gun and goes upstairs with it.
Nevill is concerned and thinks of phoning the police but decides against it. Police cars and all the rest might upset her still more and there would be a story in the local papers. So he decides to phone Jeremy.
2 While talking to Jeremy, he hears something which makes him think that the situation is more grave than he thought, so he thinks he had better phone the police after all.
3 He rushes upstairs to find out what is happening. It’s important to remember that he would not naturally assume that Sheila would shoot his wife. Even if he had heard shots he would not know what Sheila was shooting at. He would not have got the full picture until he saw the scene in the bedroom.
This is where pro guilt people go wrong. They appear to assume that if Sheila had taken the gun Nevill would immediately assume that her intention was to shoot other family members. That doesn’t have any compelling logic behind it. I would imagine that his first thought would be for Sheila’s own safety. He might well have feared that she might shoot herself.
People with mental health problems are far more likely to commit suicide than to kill other family members. He would have been thinking about what might be the best course of action to help her, not about storming at her to save the others.
Sheila gets a gun & goes up upstairs. Neville then phones Jeremy ?
Wouldn't Neville just take the gun off her. Lock the gun in the cupboard & keep the key ? He is the head of the household. A proud 6.4 farmer & former army officer. Why phone his son at 3am ?
Neville hears noises upstairs so rings the police ?
Wouldn't he run upstairs straight away.As the head of the household he will want to protect his daughter, wife & grand children.
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Yes I did use a quote from 'Crimes, Hearts & Coronets' in answer to another post. Is that a problem ?
Well done to the spotter.
Of course it matters!! You didn't quote it, you passed it off as YOUR reply but it probably was YOUR reply!! I don't understand why people do this. Tragic!!
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Anyone in particular!! ;) ;D
You are one of many Nikos BUT not all would admit it!! ;)
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There would be no reason to move June from the bed and I'm willing to accept that by dint of her own efforts she had managed to move out of bed and was finished off with two shots right between the eyes,which is where the DNA may have come from. What does Jeremy say about the silencer? Did Sheila walk over her mother to get to the far side of the master bedroom,necessitating her getting blood on the soles of her feet? If Jeremy is the guilty party he has to bring Sheila out of her bedroom or forensics would be able to prove she had never left that location and therefore could have taken no part in the killings.
OK, so before "leading" a totally passive Sheila to her staged suicide death (where Jeremy would have had to convince her to cooperate and lie down in an awkward manner on the floor so it would LOOK like suicide), he "led" her through the crime scene to get blood on her foot soles! 8)
I can just hear him: "Come sis, come walk with me through the blood."
This is all too convoluted and illogical! Bringing Sheila into the bedroom with a dead/dying June, blood everywhere, would have UPSET Sheila, it would have been counter-productive to the "staging-of-suicide-plan". Again: makes NO sense!
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Sheila gets a gun & goes up upstairs. Neville then phones Jeremy ?
Wouldn't Neville just take the gun off her. Lock the gun in the cupboard & keep the key ? He is the head of the household. A proud 6.4 farmer & former army officer. Why phone his son at 3am ?
So do you imagine that, had Neville asked her to "Please put the gun down, darling" she would have meekly complied? She MAY have not even have recognized who he was. She MAY have been responding to unseen stimuli. She MAY have thought a strange person was trying to attack her. She MAY have been screaming incoherently. Whatever, I imagine she was WAY past answering a polite request to "Please give the gun to Daddy, darling."
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Of course it matters!! You didn't quote it, you passed it off as YOUR reply but it probably was YOUR reply!! I don't understand why people do this. Tragic!!
Apologies. Me being lazy again.
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Lock the gun in the gun cupboard with a key? There was no lockable 'gun cupboard'. It was simply an understairs cupboard but guns were kept everywhere at whf. And I wasn't aware that Nevill was ever an army officer?
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So do you imagine that, had Neville asked her to "Please put the gun down, darling" she would have meekly complied? She MAY have not even have recognized who he was. She MAY have been responding to unseen stimuli. She MAY have thought a strange person was trying to attack her. She MAY have been screaming incoherently. Whatever, I imagine she was WAY past answering a polite request to "Please give the gun to Daddy, darling."
i would say doing that would be a good way to get yourself kiled.
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So do you imagine that, had Neville asked her to "Please put the gun down, darling" she would have meekly complied? She MAY have not even have recognized who he was. She MAY have been responding to unseen stimuli. She MAY have thought a strange person was trying to attack her. She MAY have been screaming incoherently. Whatever, I imagine she was WAY past answering a polite request to "Please give the gun to Daddy, darling."
So he rang up Jeremy. Who would come over & save the day. In about half an hour ! Although that same night Jeremy was calling her a 'nutter' & saying they don't get on'.
If anyone was going to calm down Sheila it was Neville, who had a good relationship with Sheila.
The thought of a small woman in a nightdress charging around the house at 3 in the morning. Re loading & beating grown men is darkly comical.
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i would say doing that would be a good way to get yourself kiled.
And it MAY be exactly what happened. Good one Nug :)
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So he rang up Jeremy. Who would come over & save the day. In about half an hour ! Although that same night Jeremy was calling her a 'nutter' & saying they don't get on'.
If anyone was going to calm down Sheila it was Neville, who had a good relationship with Sheila.
The thought of a small woman in a nightdress charging around the house at 3 in the morning. Re loading & beating grown men is darkly comical.
She isn't small Adam, she was almost 5'8" which is far from small for a woman. She was slight but in a psychotic state, or brain storm she would be VERY strong.
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So he rang up Jeremy. Who would come over & save the day. In about half an hour ! Although that same night Jeremy was calling her a 'nutter' & saying they don't get on'.
If anyone was going to calm down Sheila it was Neville, who had a good relationship with Sheila.
The thought of a small woman in a nightdress charging around the house at 3 in the morning. Re loading & beating grown men is darkly comical.
It may just have been, that had Neville supported June over the future care of the twins, Sheila believed he was against her.
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Nevill 8 shots, June 7
Tot 15 - too many shots for the magazine (plus maybe 1 in the chamber) to hold. She (if it was Shelia) would have to reload after a max of 11 shots.
I personally don't think Sheila would have loaded a mag. to full (10) and inserted a bullet in the breach ready to go off killing.
Of course the same problem would have applied to Jeremy as well?
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It may just have been, that had Neville supported June over the future care of the twins, Sheila believed he was against her.
That could have been the case. Sheila could have felt especially betrayed by Neville whom she had regarded as the one "on her side". We are speculating, I know.
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Good.
It just seems more likely that there were no calls from the house. As previously said it would take 5 minutes to make the two calls. At no time has any police officer said they heard from Neville. Jeremy said he received a call from Neville, which cannot be proved or disproved. It is a fact that Jeremy called Mugford at around this time, probably before phoning the police. If he had phoned Mugford after getting a call from Neville, he wasted valuble time while Sheila was in the house with a gun. Why ?
So why would Jeremy want to invent such a call from his father? Wouldn't he have had a better alibi in just letting the crime scene just be discovered by others?
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Sheila gets a gun & goes up upstairs. Neville then phones Jeremy ?
Wouldn't Neville just take the gun off her. Lock the gun in the cupboard & keep the key ? He is the head of the household. A proud 6.4 farmer & former army officer. Why phone his son at 3am ?
Neville hears noises upstairs so rings the police ?
Wouldn't he run upstairs straight away.As the head of the household he will want to protect his daughter, wife & grand children.
Who knows what would happen?
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So do you imagine that, had Neville asked her to "Please put the gun down, darling" she would have meekly complied? She MAY have not even have recognized who he was. She MAY have been responding to unseen stimuli. She MAY have thought a strange person was trying to attack her. She MAY have been screaming incoherently. Whatever, I imagine she was WAY past answering a polite request to "Please give the gun to Daddy, darling."
Well said April, this is what many 'guilty' supporters fail to take into account. They talk of Sheila in such a scenario as though she would be in a state of some reason. Unless you have experience of PS - you have no idea just how devastating it can be and when someone you love is in the throws of a psychotic episode, it's not only them that behaves irrationally. But the last thing I think Neville would have wanted, was the police involved UNLESS it was the last straw. That's why he called Jeremy FIRST.
The guilty argument fails at the point where Jeremy is supposed to lead Sheila by the hand so he can shoot her. But it's the ONLY way they can explain why she looks so calm in death. First thing she would have done when she saw her mother lying dead was scream to see the twins and fought for her life to make sure they were OK. There is no rigor because her hand was moved for pictures and there are many theories about 'plugs of blood' being dislodged to explain the wet blood still bleeding out of the wounds BUT that's all they are 'theories' - what is 'evident' is that the blood was wet and more to the point documents were altered. If there was so much evidence aginst Jeremy Bamber - why did they see fit to amend, bend and create evidence? Which in my opinion is exactly what happened!
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So he rang up Jeremy. Who would come over & save the day. In about half an hour ! Although that same night Jeremy was calling her a 'nutter' & saying they don't get on'.
If anyone was going to calm down Sheila it was Neville, who had a good relationship with Sheila.
The thought of a small woman in a nightdress charging around the house at 3 in the morning. Re loading & beating grown men is darkly comical.
That is another reason I don't like senarios. Because of silly statements like that one.
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That is another reason I don't like senarios. Because of silly statements like that one.
Me too and I've seen that highlighted sentence before. Which is even more 'darkly comical'
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So he rang up Jeremy. Who would come over & save the day. In about half an hour ! Although that same night Jeremy was calling her a 'nutter' & saying they don't get on'.
If anyone was going to calm down Sheila it was Neville, who had a good relationship with Sheila.
The thought of a small woman in a nightdress charging around the house at 3 in the morning. Re loading & beating grown men is darkly comical.
Is it equally or more darkly comical to imagine a guy in a wetsuit doing the same?``
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So he rang up Jeremy. Who would come over & save the day. In about half an hour ! Although that same night Jeremy was calling her a 'nutter' & saying they don't get on'.
If anyone was going to calm down Sheila it was Neville, who had a good relationship with Sheila.
The thought of a small woman in a nightdress charging around the house at 3 in the morning. Re loading & beating grown men is darkly comical.
Adam,,you clearly don't understand how a mentally sick woman reacts..Never under-estimate the strength any woman can muster given a " threatening " situation,,,sick or not. In Sheilas' case,,she had many other on-going issues besides being ill,,which can and does give rise to a show of strength.
I'm slightly-built getting on in years,,and on appearance one wouldn't think butter would melt,,but should the occasion rise where I'm faced with a dilemma of sorts ( threat ) then I know I am a force to be reckoned with. I'm of sound mind,neither paranoid nor a schizophrenic and don't take drugs,alcohol or any prescription medication for any mental problems.
Sheila on the other hand was all those things that I've just mentioned and if I was unfortunate to have been in her shoes,,I too would have had no trouble killing.
I don't know where people get this idea that Sheila couldn't kill.
Read about women who kill their babies/children,,as it's only through reading about this illness will you understand the reason/s why.
Nothing comical,,darkly or otherwise about a woman charging around the house. On the contrary,,she was a demented poorly understood soul who had NO support from any direction.
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Is it equally or more darkly comical to imagine a guy in a wetsuit doing the same?``
On a bike as well. ;D
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I know there are a 'few' examples of mothers killing their children.
Are there any examples of mothers also murdering their mother & father & themselves on the same night ?
Neville & June obviously felt safe otherwise they would not have invited her over to stay. Jeremy claims they spoke about fostering at dinner. Sheila did not really respond. Yet five hours later there were five dead people.
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also nevile may of been big but he was 61 he would of been trying to fight someone who was much younger and fitter than him.
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I know there are a 'few' examples of mothers killing their children.
Are there any examples of mothers also murdering their mother & father & themselves on the same night ?
Neville & June obviously felt safe otherwise they would not have invited her over to stay. Jeremy claims they spoke about fostering at dinner. Sheila did not really respond. Yet five hours later there were five dead people.
Unpredictability is one of the symptoms of Schizophrenia.
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I know there are a 'few' examples of mothers killing their children.
Are there any examples of mothers also murdering their mother & father & themselves on the same night ?
Neville & June obviously felt safe otherwise they would not have invited her over to stay. Jeremy claims they spoke about fostering at dinner. Sheila did not really respond. Yet five hours later there were five dead people.
Sometimes when people run out of words they turn to violence...
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On a bike as well. ;D
People in wet suits are very flexible. Which is why surfers wear them. Is it correct that Jeremy borrowed a wet suit ? Was he planning to become a surfer ? !
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I know there are a 'few' examples of mothers killer their children.
Are there any examples of mothers also murdering their mother & father & themselves on the same night ?
Neville & June obviously felt safe otherwise they would not have invited her over to stay. Jeremy claims they spoke about fostering at dinner. Sheila did not really respond. Yet five hours later there were five dead people.
A sign of a forthcoming violent psychotic episode, or brainstorm in a person with schizophrenia is often complete withdrawal before the violent episode or brainstorm. Sheila's behaviour that evening is a clue to why she could have gone on and killed later that night. It's classic. ;D
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People in wet suits are very flexible. Which is why surfers wear them. Is it correct that Jeremy borrowed a wet suit ? Was he planning to become a surfer ? !
He had a wetsuit and he did surf. What people fail to realise of course is that a wetsuit would be the worst thing to wear if you are going to commit a murder where there is hoing to be a lot of blood around. Why? Because they are absorbent. Also if you have ever worn a wetsuit you will find that they are very difficult to move around in except of course if you are in the water.
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I know there are a 'few' examples of mothers killing their children.
Are there any examples of mothers also murdering their mother & father & themselves on the same night ?
Neville & June obviously felt safe otherwise they would not have invited her over to stay. Jeremy claims they spoke about fostering at dinner. Sheila did not really respond. Yet five hours later there were five dead people.
Sheila would have been devastated to have seen her boys fostered out,,or even Colin with his new g/friend looking after them,,so in her mind it would have been a case of if she,herself couldn't have them,then nobody else was. June and Neville obviously did their best to reason with their daughter,,but because very few know this----------------you CAN'T reason with a paranoid schizophrenic,especially when they have been missing their medication,,and in Sheilas' case the Halopol had been reduced ( which was an insane move in anyones' books )
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A sign of a forthcoming violent psychotic episode, or brainstorm in a person with schizophrenia is often complete withdrawal followed by a violent episode or brainstorm. Sheila's behaviour that evening is a clue to why she could have gone on and killed later that night. It's classic. ;D
Thank you.
Colin Caffell said Jeremy asked him when Sheila & the children were next due to stay at the house.
Jeremy had dinner with the family earlier in the evening. Was it common for him to do this ? Seems unusual as he did not like his family or working on the farm. Maybe he had supper that night to make sure the house would be full later. And to load the gun ?
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Why would Colin Caffells first words be " she's finally done it " on hearing the tragic news ? Meaning that he wasn't surprised.
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Why would Colin Caffells first words be " she's finally done it " on hearing the tragic news ? Meaning that he wasn't surprised.
It also indicates that Colin believed she had the capability to do it.
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Thank you.
Colin Caffell said Jeremy asked him when Sheila & the children were next due to stay at the house.
Jeremy had dinner with the family earlier in the evening. Was it common for him to do this ? Seems unusual as he did not like his family or working on the farm. Maybe he had supper that night to make sure the house would be full later ?
Or maybe it was just because it was harvest time and meals were grabbed, and it was easier for him to eat a meal put in front of him than go home to cook for himself.................and since WHEN did POSSIBLE and probably FLEETING dislike of family, as happens in MOST families of my acquaintance, prevent someone from being with them when it was convenient?
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Thank you.
Colin Caffell said Jeremy asked him when Sheila & the children were next due to stay at the house.
Jeremy had dinner with the family earlier in the evening. Was it common for him to do this ? Seems unusual as he did not like his family or working on the farm. Maybe he had supper that night to make sure the house would be full later. And to load the gun ?
Adam, I think you are just stirring, of course Jeremy ate at the family home, he worked on the farm full time and had done for about 18 months. It was harvest time so they were working late bringing in the crops late into the evening. There is no proof that Jeremy didn't like his family, that is just introduced by guilters, it's a myth. I don't doubt as a teenager and young man they probably got on his nerves at times, especially when they didn't agree with his point of view but that's normal enough imo
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It also indicates that Colin believed she had the capability to do it.
Exactly,,Grahame. It's almost an admission in itself.
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Adam, I think you are just stirring, of course Jeremy ate at the family home, he worked on the farm full time and had done for about 18 months. It was harvest time so they were working late bringing in the crops late into the evening. There is no proof that Jeremy didn't like his family, that is just introduced by guilters, it's a myth. I don't doubt as a teenager and young man they probably got on his nerves at times, especially when they didn't agree with his point of view but that's normal enough imo
'Winding' more like!!
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People other that Mugford have said how Jeremy did not like his 'old' father, 'insane' mother & 'nutter' sister. But I suppose all families can have rows.
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People other that Mugford have said how Jeremy did not like his 'old' father, 'insane' mother & 'nutter' sister. But I suppose all families can have rows.
Show me a family that doesn't. ANY family.
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People other that Mugford have said how Jeremy did not like his 'old' father, 'insane' mother & 'nutter' sister. But I suppose all families can have rows.
I hated my mother if I couldn't get my own way,,even screaming and pulling tongues at her,,but no way did murder/killing ever come into it. Next door neighbours at home years ago were always rowing,,and Mrs S would shout " I'll kill you ",if her husband forgot to wake her up ready for night-duty at the local hospital. Mr would reply to that by saying " he was going to buy a gun " because of the wifes' nagging.
A better,nicer family you'd ever wish to meet,,they were fantastic,and killing/murdering wasn't on their minds either.
What a lame excuse to use what Jeremy had said, into a criminal offence. Every damn thing was mis-interpreted and used against him,,to suit everyone else.
I'd loved to have been a fly on the wall when RWB used to kick off. I bet he used to same some choice phrases. People in glass houses are always throwing stones.
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People other that Mugford have said how Jeremy did not like his 'old' father, 'insane' mother & 'nutter' sister. But I suppose all families can have rows.
the relatives said then they had a vested interest in his conviction.
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the relatives said then they had a vested interest in his conviction.
Yes,nugs,,and didn't they do well ??
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I hated my mother if I couldn't get my own way,,even screaming and pulling tongues at her,,but no way did murder/killing ever come into it. Next door neighbours at home years ago were always rowing,,and Mrs S would shout " I'll kill you ",if her husband forgot to wake her up ready for night-duty at the local hospital. Mr would reply to that by saying " he was going to buy a gun " because of the wifes' nagging.
A better,nicer family you'd ever wish to meet,,they were fantastic,and killing/murdering wasn't on their minds either.
What a lame excuse to use what Jeremy had said, into a criminal offence. Every damn thing was mis-interpreted and used against him,,to suit everyone else.
I'd loved to have been a fly on the wall when RWB used to kick off. I bet he used to same some choice phrases. People in glass houses are always throwing stones.
Can't tell you how many times I told my Mum I hated her as a teenager, didn'thate her at all she was a great Mum but if she wouldn't let me have my own way, I HATED her. :) :)
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So true,Maggie. What were we like ? ;D I probably didn't even know the proper meaning of hate neither.
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Nevill 8 shots, June 7
Tot 15 - too many shots for the magazine (plus maybe 1 in the chamber) to hold. She (if it was Shelia) would have to reload after a max of 11 shots.
I personally don't think Sheila would have loaded a mag. to full (10) and inserted a bullet in the breach ready to go off killing.
Sheila could have reloaded and fired more shots after Nevill and June were dead and also shot the children after her parents were dead.
It's not rocket science.
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Don't type at me like that! ;D
If you can't cope with having your theories challenged then perhaps this forum isn't the best place for you.
For the record, I happen to believe that Jeremy's conviction is hugely questionable.
If Ralf considered the situation to be serious enough, to call Jeremy and ask him to come over and help, then I can't believe that he hadn't first of all, forcibly tried to disarm her.
If you think that it would be a good idea to try to forcibly disarm a person with a loaded weapon experiencing a psychotic episode then you are not thinking straight.
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well there was nobody there to stop her.
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Thanks for that Martin, perhaps 'Adam' might like to explain?
John Lamberton sometimes quotes Ian Stephens in that way, but he may not be the only one.
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So true,Maggie. What were we like ? ;D I probably didn't even know the proper meaning of hate neither.
Heat of the moment really lookout. Don't believe I have ever really hated anyone. ;D
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Heat of the moment really lookout. Don't believe I have ever really hated anyone. ;D
Nor me,Maggie. It's so negative,and I'm not a negative person at all deep down.
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If you think that it would be a good idea to try to forcibly disarm a person with a loaded weapon experiencing a psychotic episode then you are not thinking straight.
If my children were in the same house as an armed psychopath, I would not take my eyes off them for a moment
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If my children were in the same house as an armed psychopath, I would not take my eyes off them for a moment
Oh, the power of hindsight! We all act differently for different reasons - as you weren't there and didn't see what happened - you can't say what you would do. You can only say what you 'think' you would do in a scenario influenced by what you think was happening.
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If my children were in the same house as an armed psychopath, I would not take my eyes off them for a moment
id like to think i would but to but in all honesty you dont no what you do if you have never been in such a situation.
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If my children were in the same house as an armed psychopath, I would not take my eyes off them for a moment
So you may think now but circumstances change things.
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Oh, the power of hindsight! We all act differently for different reasons - as you weren't there and didn't see what happened - you can't say what you would do. You can only say what you 'think' you would do in a scenario influenced by what you think was happening.
And that is exactly what I did. I can't very well do anything else, can I?
Nobody knows conclusively what happened that night, therefor it is all about opinions. I am not offering up facts, merely expressing my opinion on the probability that certain things did or didn't happen.
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And that is exactly what I did. I can't very well do anything else, can I?
Nobody knows conclusively what happened that night, therefor it is all about opinions. I am not offering up facts, merely expressing my opinion on the probability that certain things did or didn't happen.
With all respect, I haven't seen you offer up your own version of events, you've just criticised everyone else's.
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With all respect, I haven't seen you offer up your own version of events, you've just criticised everyone else's.
I don't have any idea what happened.
I enjoy reading other posters theories and then questioning the validity of them. I am very open minded when it comes to this case.
Some people seem to take things too personally.
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I don't have any idea what happened.
I enjoy reading other posters theories and then questioning the validity of them. I am very open minded when it comes to this case.
Some people seem to take things too personally.
People's ideas are personal!
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People's ideas are personal!
If you don't like your ideas to be challenged, then I will not comment on them.
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If you don't like your ideas to be challenged, then I will not comment on them.
I don't mind my ideas being challenged, neither (I assume) does Martin, as long as there is something constructive to debate with. Comments like "That sounds even more implausible" and "
The sequence of events, as suggested by Martin is quite simply, unbelievable" leaves no where to go as far as debate goes.
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Adam, I think you are just stirring, of course Jeremy ate at the family home, he worked on the farm full time and had done for about 18 months. It was harvest time so they were working late bringing in the crops late into the evening. There is no proof that Jeremy didn't like his family, that is just introduced by guilters, it's a myth. I don't doubt as a teenager and young man they probably got on his nerves at times, especially when they didn't agree with his point of view but that's normal enough imo
Jeremy liked surprising people(giving Julie roses,booking the bridal suite)and playing childish pranks(riding around in circles on a bicycle before Ann Eaton and June,telling Ann he had won the Premium bonds). I feel he always liked to do the opposite of what people were expecting:June wanted Jeremy to marry Julie so Jeremy said no,Nevill wanted Jeremy to wear a suit in company but Jeremy refused,yet after the murders Jeremy buys a Hugo Boss suit and flashes the label claiming he's now the "Boss". I'm afraid I do believe Goldsmiths student James Richards when Jeremy told him how he hated his parents,and it's one thing to say this in the heat of the moment behind closed doors and another to tell one of your friends quite casually.
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Jeremy liked surprising people(giving Julie roses,booking the bridal suite)and playing childish pranks(riding around in circles on a bicycle before Ann Eaton and June,telling Ann he had won the Premium bonds). I feel he always liked to do the opposite of what people were expecting:June wanted Jeremy to marry Julie so Jeremy said no,Nevill wanted Jeremy to wear a suit in company but Jeremy refused,yet after the murders Jeremy buys a Hugo Boss suit and flashes the label claiming he's now the "Boss". I'm afraid I do believe Goldsmiths student James Richards when Jeremy told him how he hated his parents,and it's one thing to say this in the heat of the moment behind closed doors and another to tell one of your friends quite casually.
OK Steve, so Jeremy had a childish/immature sense of humour. I can tell you now that, so too, have men of my acquaintance with brilliant brains. I doesn't become a hanging offence until one gets fed up with it.
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Jeremy liked surprising people(giving Julie roses,booking the bridal suite)and playing childish pranks(riding around in circles on a bicycle before Ann Eaton and June,telling Ann he had won the Premium bonds). I feel he always liked to do the opposite of what people were expecting:June wanted Jeremy to marry Julie so Jeremy said no,Nevill wanted Jeremy to wear a suit in company but Jeremy refused,yet after the murders Jeremy buys a Hugo Boss suit and flashes the label claiming he's now the "Boss". I'm afraid I do believe Goldsmiths student James Richards when Jeremy told him how he hated his parents,and it's one thing to say this in the heat of the moment behind closed doors and another to tell one of your friends quite casually.
That was a surprise in the recent documentary. Flashing his suit & pointing at it saying he's the boss. In front of lots of witnesses as well.
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That was a surprise in the recent documentary. Jeremy bounding down the stairs in a Hugo Boss suit, pointing at himself/ his suit saying 'me boss'. In front of lots of witnesses as well.
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Jeremy liked surprising people(giving Julie roses,booking the bridal suite)and playing childish pranks(riding around in circles on a bicycle before Ann Eaton and June,telling Ann he had won the Premium bonds). I feel he always liked to do the opposite of what people were expecting:June wanted Jeremy to marry Julie so Jeremy said no,Nevill wanted Jeremy to wear a suit in company but Jeremy refused,yet after the murders Jeremy buys a Hugo Boss suit and flashes the label claiming he's now the "Boss". I'm afraid I do believe Goldsmiths student James Richards when Jeremy told him how he hated his parents,and it's one thing to say this in the heat of the moment behind closed doors and another to tell one of your friends quite casually.
Jeremy liked surprising people(giving Julie roses,booking the bridal suite)
WOW, what a nice guy!! Lucky Julie! Steve, I don´t think you have ever done anything like that, but it is not too late, HURRY!
playing childish pranks(riding around in circles on a bicycle before Ann Eaton and June,telling Ann he had won the Premium bonds).
A prankster, but what is wrong with a little bit of fun?
June wanted Jeremy to marry Julie so Jeremy said no
I thought June referred to Julie as a "harlot" - did she really want Jeremy to marry her?
Nevill wanted Jeremy to wear a suit in company but Jeremy refused,yet after the murders Jeremy buys a Hugo Boss suit and flashes the label claiming he's now the "Boss".
Didn´t Jeremy need that suit for the funerals?
I'm afraid I do believe Goldsmiths student James Richards when Jeremy told him how he hated his parents
I don´t find it unlikely either, but I dare you to find one single person who has not said that about their parents at one time or another.
The things you mention are just normal stuff - even nice, but because it is Jeremy Bamber, it is super-sinister. OK
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He needed the suits for the funerals. He didn't need to say 'me boss' at the reception.
I have never said to anyone I hate my parents or wish them dead. Even when they would not let me stay up to watch 'Match of the Day'.
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That was a surprise in the recent documentary. Jeremy bounding down the stairs in a Hugo Boss suit, pointing at himself/ his suit saying 'me boss'. In front of lots of witnesses as well.
And you believe that's what happened? Can't you tell the difference between fact and fiction?
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That was a surprise in the recent documentary. Flashing his suit & pointing at it saying he's the boss. In front of lots of witnesses as well.
And?
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And you believe that's what happened? Can't you tell the difference between fact and fiction?
Someone close to the case said it on national TV.
Don't say it's another untruth. Jeremy must be fed up with Essex Police, Mugord, Battersby, the Boutflours, Ann Eaton, Wilson, Rimmington & Wilkes telling lies.
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Someone close to the case said it on national TV.
Don't say it's another untruth. Jeremy must be fed up with Essex Police, Mugord, Battersby, the Boutflours, Ann Eaton, Wilson, Rimmington & Wilkes telling lies.
Can I ask you why you're on the forum. you seem to know exactly what happened down to the smallest detail. Jeremy Bamber is locked up for the rest of his life. Don't you have something more interesting to do with your time or do you believe we need educating?
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That was a surprise in the recent documentary. Jeremy bounding down the stairs in a Hugo Boss suit, pointing at himself/ his suit saying 'me boss'. In front of lots of witnesses as well.
Then why did you believe it? It was all twisted by that lying copper Miller.
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Can I ask you why you're on the forum. you seem to know exactly what happened down to the smallest detail. Jeremy Bamber is locked up for the rest of his life. Don't you have something more interesting to do with your time or do you believe we need educating?
Of course Jeremy is locked up:he's a mass murderer.There have been several members who have expressed similar points of view before,though maybe in a more erudite fashion(Darren Day springs to mind),and it might be as well to confront their arguments rather than frighten them off the forum.
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Of course Jeremy is locked up:he's a mass murderer.There have been several members who have expressed similar points of view before,though maybe in a more erudite fashion(Darren Day springs to mind),and it might be as well to confront their arguments rather than frighten them off the forum.
Was 'Darren' Day on the forum? It must have been out of panto season;D ;D ;D
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I guess you mean 'Daniel' Day? - Funny you should see the same similarity!!
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Someone close to the case said it on national TV.
Don't say it's another untruth. Jeremy must be fed up with Essex Police, Mugord, Battersby, the Boutflours, Ann Eaton, Wilson, Rimmington & Wilkes telling lies.
i think its already been convinceingly proved that most of those people told lies.
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That was a surprise in the recent documentary. Jeremy bounding down the stairs in a Hugo Boss suit, pointing at himself/ his suit saying 'me boss'. In front of lots of witnesses as well.
Goodness me,he was just a big kid,,who probably knew he'd annoy everyone. I wish I'd seen their contorted faces when he said that !
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Someone close to the case said it on national TV.
Don't say it's another untruth. Jeremy must be fed up with Essex Police, Mugord, Battersby, the Boutflours, Ann Eaton, Wilson, Rimmington & Wilkes telling lies.
If he isn't, I certainly am. Who is there to contradict Miller? They probably all think like you do. That if he said it on national tv then it must be true. Even if it were true what does it prove? Just a bit of foolish bravado in order to give the impression that he has himself under control. Of course we cannot expect a thick idiot like Miller to appreciate things like that.
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If he isn't, I certainly am. Who is there to contradict Miller? They probably all think like you do. That if he said it on national tv then it must be true. Even if it were true what does it prove? Just a bit of foolish bravado in order to give the impression that he has himself under control. Of course we cannot expect a thick idiot like Miller to appreciate things like that.
Well said Grahame. :)
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If he isn't, I certainly am. Who is there to contradict Miller? They probably all think like you do. That if he said it on national tv then it must be true. Even if it were true what does it prove? Just a bit of foolish bravado in order to give the impression that he has himself under control. Of course we cannot expect a thick idiot like Miller to appreciate things like that.
Thick is right,Grahame. Unbelievably so !
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Perfectly beleivable scenario for me -
Jeremy rides to WHF - He had a bike & knew the routes.
He gets through the bathroom window without making a noise - He is used to getting in. Found hacksaw used earlier to ensure a quiet entry.
The phones are disabled & gun picked up.
He starts shooting a sleeping June - Blood on the pillow (5)
Neville wakes & gets up & is shot - Torso shots (4)
Neville heads to the kitchen - Back shot (1)
He is caught up and beaten - Gun is now empty. Nevilles black eyes, damaged jaw.
Gun re loaded and Neville shot again - Head shots (3)
June has staggered out of bed. She is shot again (2)
Sheila is woken & told she needs to go into the main bedroom. She is immediatly pulled to the floor, held down & shot. Still alive she is shot again - Two bullet wounds (2)
The twins are shot while sleeping - Found in bed (eight).
Silencer taken off - Not found on gun.
A gun & bible is put on & by Sheila - Both found on/by her.
Bedroom phone brought downstairs & plugged in - No blood on phone.
Kitchen phone hidden - Found under newpapers. In working order.
Silencer put in box in gun cupboard - Found in a box in the gun cupboard.
Exit out of the kitchen window - Lockable from outside.
Back home, wash & get ready to make phone calls.
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I can't think that there would have been any need to have Sheila in the master bedroom. She would never have committed suicide in the same room as her mother. It would have made much more sense to havew placed her in the boys room to where she would have naturally gravitated.
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Cobblers.
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I can't think that there would have been any need to have Sheila in the master bedroom. She would never have committed suicide in the same room as her mother. It would have made much more sense to havew placed her in the boys room to where she would have naturally gravitated.
So if Sheila had committed suicide she would be found in the bedroom with her children ?
Are you saying she did not commit suicide ?
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Perfectly beleivable scenario for me -
Jeremy rides to WHF in a wet suit - He had a wet suit, bike & knew the routes.
He gets through the bathroom window without making a noise or leaving evidence - He is used to getting in & wore gloves.
The phones are disabled & gun picked up.
He starts shooting a sleeping June - Blood on the pillow.
Neville wakes & gets up & is shot - Torso shots.
Neville heads to the kitchen - Back shot.
He is caught up and beaten - Gun is now empty. Nevilles black eyes, damaged jaw.
Gun re loaded and Neville shot again - Head shots.
Sheila is woken & told she needs to go into the main bedroom. She is immediatly pulled to the floor, held down & shot. Still alive she is shot again - Two bullet wounds.
The twins are shot while sleeping - Found in bed.
A gun & bible is put on & by Sheila - Both found on/by her.
Bedroom phone brought downstairs & plugged in - No blood on phone.
Kitchen phone hidden - Found under newpapers. In working order.
Exit out of the kitchen window - Lockable from outside.
Back home, wash & get ready to make phone calls.
If that is believable to you. Then all I can say is that you will believe anything.
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I have just amended the scenario to include the silencer. An important item.
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Perfectly beleivable scenario for me -
Jeremy rides to WHF in a wet suit - He had a wet suit, bike & knew the routes.
He gets through the bathroom window without making a noise or leaving evidence - He is used to getting in & wore gloves.
The phones are disabled & gun picked up.
He starts shooting a sleeping June - Blood on the pillow.
Neville wakes & gets up & is shot - Torso shots.
Neville heads to the kitchen - Back shot.
He is caught up and beaten - Gun is now empty. Nevilles black eyes, damaged jaw.
Gun re loaded and Neville shot again - Head shots.
Sheila is woken & told she needs to go into the main bedroom. She is immediatly pulled to the floor, held down & shot. Still alive she is shot again - Two bullet wounds.
The twins are shot while sleeping - Found in bed.
Silencer taken off - Not found on gun.
A gun & bible is put on & by Sheila - Both found on/by her.
Bedroom phone brought downstairs & plugged in - No blood on phone.
Kitchen phone hidden - Found under newpapers. In working order.
Silencer put in box in gun cupboard.
Exit out of the kitchen window - Lockable from outside.
Back home, wash & get ready to make phone calls.
you are bob wolfingdon and i cliam the 5 pound reward.
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Whoever it is had got wind of the forthcoming CCRC presentation of new evidence. This sort of thing always happens. You've only to see how hot on the heels that last video came from the one before about the relatives. It's becoming a tit-for-tat scenario.
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I have just amended the scenario to include the silencer. An important item.
you missed a few bits-
he faked the electrical storm that put the phones out .Carefully put the silencer with the blood on in a place where the police would find it .When he got home washed the wet suit and gloves and destroyed them. cleaned the bike. faked the police log. Put a false person in the house that the police saw and communicated with. Put on an excellent act on the night. But then let that act slip ( careless!) Told his girlfriend everything so she could blackmail him in the future . Stuck to his story totally ( except for one timing when under pressure ) whilst all around him constantly changed theirs . Oh and forgot - made sure that the bodies were verified as time of death as 8 oclock ( which in fact on its own should have cleared him. IMO! :)
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you missed a few bits-
he faked the electrical storm that put the phones out .Carefully put the silencer with the blood on in a place where the police would find it .When he got home washed the wet suit and gloves and destroyed them. cleaned the bike. faked the police log. Put a false person in the house that the police saw and communicated with. Put on an excellent act on the night. But then let that act slip ( careless!) Told his girlfriend everything so she could blackmail him in the future . Stuck to his story totally ( except for one timing when under pressure ) whilst all around him constantly changed theirs . Oh and forgot - made sure that the bodies were verified as time of death as 8 oclock ( which in fact on its own should have cleared him. IMO! :)
Don't forget that he had to go to France in order to wash the wetsuit. ;D The who purpose of wearing a wetsuit is that they are absorbent. The idea is that it gets wet and the water keeps the body from chilling.
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I have just amened my scenario post. In brackets I have put bullet shots, total is 25 which hit the target.
Feel free to correct me.
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I have just amened my scenario post. In brackets I have put bullet shots, total is 25 which hit the target.
Feel free to correct me.
Oh good ::)
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Perfectly beleivable scenario for me -
Jeremy rides to WHF in a wet suit - He had a wet suit, bike & knew the routes.
He gets through the bathroom window without making a noise or leaving evidence - He is used to getting in & wore gloves.
The phones are disabled & gun picked up.
He starts shooting a sleeping June - Blood on the pillow (5)
Neville wakes & gets up & is shot - Torso shots (4)
Neville heads to the kitchen - Back shot (1)
He is caught up and beaten - Gun is now empty. Nevilles black eyes, damaged jaw.
Gun re loaded and Neville shot again - Head shots (3)
June has staggered out of bed. She is shot again (2)
Sheila is woken & told she needs to go into the main bedroom. She is immediatly pulled to the floor, held down & shot. Still alive she is shot again - Two bullet wounds (2)
The twins are shot while sleeping - Found in bed (eight).
Silencer taken off - Not found on gun.
A gun & bible is put on & by Sheila - Both found on/by her.
Bedroom phone brought downstairs & plugged in - No blood on phone.
Kitchen phone hidden - Found under newpapers. In working order.
Silencer put in box in gun cupboard - Found in a box in the gun cupboard.
Exit out of the kitchen window - Lockable from outside.
Back home, wash & get ready to make phone calls.
Here it is. Hope everything is in order.
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Here it is. Hope everything is in order.
LOL, glad to see you have a sense of humour! :)
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Morning Adam
I think you have been reading steve u-k's posts and nicking his theories ;D ;D ;D
You forgot the marigolds.
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Not been reading Steves posts but have obviously taken an interest in the case.
My scenario matches the crime scene & bullets. Neville on seeing Jeremy with a gun would have headed downstairs. He would know that Jeremy was there to kill him. He would also know that Jeremy is fit & strong.
Another option with Sheila is she was shot in her bed while asleep. Then carried into the main bedroom.
Anyway look forward to reading a Sheila scenario.
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Not been reading Steves posts but have obviously taken an interest in the case.
My scenario matches the crime scene & bullets. Neville on seeing Jeremy with a gun would have headed downstairs. He would know that Jeremy was there to kill him. He would also know that Jeremy is fit & strong.
Another option with Sheila is she was shot in her bed while asleep. Then carried into the main bedroom.
Anyway look forward to reading a Sheila scenario.
Are you serious Adam? There was no trace of blood anywhere in Sheila's bedroom, never mind in her bed, in fact it is always stated that Sheila's bed hadn't been slept in that night. Paranoid Schizophrenics tend to be wakeful at night. We also know from her post mortem results that Sheila was not sedated, there was no sign of such medication in her system but she had remains of undigested food which proved she had eaten not long before she died.
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Would blood come pouring out of Sheila's neck like a fountain from a rifle shot ? Or seep out slowly ?
If it is the latter I will keep to my original statement.
Jeremy could have made Sheilas bed. There is no way knowing if a bed has been slept in.
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Would blood come pouring out of Sheila's neck like a fountain from a rifle shot ? Or seep out slowly ?
If it is the latter I will keep to my original statement.
Jeremy could have made Sheilas bed. There is no way knowing if a bed has been slept in.
Why on earth would he make her bed? :o
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Bike and wetsuit were forensically tested Adam,and no evidence found. You will need to think of other ways how JB travelled to and from the farm that night. A flying carpet perhaps?
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Bike and wetsuit were forensically tested Adam,and no evidence found. You will need to think of other ways how JB travelled to and from the farm that night. A flying carpet perhaps?
Both the bike and wetsuit came from the silly senario concocted by RWB.
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Both the bike and wetsuit came from the silly senario concocted by RWB.
Exactly. Any idea will do however rediculous as long as it proves the guilter right ....... oops no sorry ........ proves Jeremy Bamber is guilty.
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Bike and wetsuit were forensically tested Adam,and no evidence found. You will need to think of other ways how JB travelled to and from the farm that night. A flying carpet perhaps?
Magic carpet? It's a definite possibility tyler. ;D
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As has been pointed out,,there are similarities with Sheila and Andrea Yates,,who drowned five of her children. Both Post Partum depressives.
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Hi, with reference to Post #280 :-
Good try, Nugnug, but I am afraid you will not get the Reward!
My research indicates it is none other than. 'Alexander-Smart' of the initial WHF EP TFG assault or raid party.
We do not have the facility of either his, or Collin's WitStats.
I can reveal that the said 'Alexander-Smart' is the 'alter ego' of SMART ALICK, a 'Clever Dick' from Special Branch.
Ergo, 'I can say' that I claim the £5 Reward!
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Fellow Sleuths,
In pursuance of my claim I ask that you check out the origin of the generic term 'Smart Alec'.
'I can say' that one should Google- TODAY I FOUND OUT-Origin of Smart Alec. BTW please note the peculiar logo the site uses -reminiscent of a snowflake!
Prof Gerard Cohen, in his 1985 work, says that that this ALEC was.....actually Alec Hoag, from NY in the 1840's
'I can say that' this explanation appears eminently plausible to 'Your Truly' !!
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Campion I agree with every word you say so we shall share the reward ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Susan, Nice to see you- to see YOU nice! ( Courtesy of Bruce & Bruce labs).
'Ican say that I wood gladly share the Reward with Thou !!!!
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Hi campion I thank thee as you know we Yorkshire folk never refuse brass as how little the sum maybe. Could I have a little more than half ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Bike and wetsuit were forensically tested Adam,and no evidence found. You will need to think of other ways how JB travelled to and from the farm that night. A flying carpet perhaps?
He could have walked/jogged.
But there is no special reason why there should be evidence on the bike or wet suit. All he would have done is sit on the bike & peddle. Four of the five killings were quite straight forward so there may not have been much blood on him. He could have cleaned himself at the house afterwards. Doesn't blood come off wet suits easily ?
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Anyway I have an open mind, as previously said & will think of a Sheila scenario which matches the crime scene & bullet allocation.
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He could have walked/jogged.
But there is no special reason why there should be evidence on the bike or wet suit. All he would have done is sit on the bike & peddle. Four of the five killings were quite straight forward so there may not have been much blood on him. He could have cleaned himself at the house afterwards. Doesn't blood come off wet suits easily ?
if you were a really clever person - which you are obviously saying JB is as he planned this down to the last detail - dont you think he might have considered the possibility that if someone saw him jogging late at night in a wet suit and marigolds it might have been just a tincy wincy bit suspicious ?
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Hello Adam
evidence would have existed on the wheels of the bike not just the peddles and seat and as we know the bike was forensically tested. Blood stains do not come off wet suits very easily almost impossible. Did he jog or walk in the wet suit and do you not think it would have been possible that he would have been noticed as looking quite out of place jogging in a wet suit in the early hours.
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He could have walked/jogged.
But there is no special reason why there should be evidence on the bike or wet suit. All he would have done is sit on the bike & peddle. Four of the five killings were quite straight forward so there may not have been much blood on him. He could have cleaned himself at the house afterwards. Doesn't blood come off wet suits easily ?
I don't think you have been paying attention to me Adam? Wetsuits are not drysuits. Drysuits are impervious to water. Wetsuits on the other hand are absorbent and the water needs to soak through to the skin. Because it is the actual water that keeps the diver or surfer warm. Therefore if Jeremy had worn a wetsuit any blood would have soaked through to his clothing underneath. So a wetsuit would have been the last thing he would have worn. If you are going to make up senarios then it is advisable to stick to the facts as much as possible.
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if you were a really clever person - which you are obviously saying JB is as he planned this down to the last detail - dont you think he might have considered the possibility that if someone saw him jogging late at night in a wet suit and marigolds it might have been just a tincy wincy bit suspicious ?
Who will see him jogging/walking/riding at that time of night ?
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Who will see him jogging/walking/riding at that time of night ?
Well its up to you if you want to believe the luny ideas of old man Boutflour.
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Who will see him jogging/walking/riding at that time of night ?
I woner, are you playing devil's advocate or are you SO determined that Jeremy is guilty that you're offering scenarios as silly than SOME of ours.
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It is ridiculous to think that Jeremy wore a wetsuit. I do realize that many pro Bambers come up with outlandish theories, but it goes the other way too! Jeez
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He could have walked/jogged.
But there is no special reason why there should be evidence on the bike or wet suit. All he would have done is sit on the bike & peddle. Four of the five killings were quite straight forward so there may not have been much blood on him. He could have cleaned himself at the house afterwards. Doesn't blood come off wet suits easily ?
Magic carpet?
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Who will see him jogging/walking/riding at that time of night ?
in country fields at night you can not guarantee that there may not be poachers/ or potentially lovers in cars etc. - that is if you are suggesting he ran in the dark across the fields and not on roads or paths - so he could not have guaranteed that no-one would see him before he reached home.
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and why would he want to walk or cycle there seeing as he had a car.
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and why would he want to walk or cycle there seeing as he had a car.
there will of course be an explanation ::)
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and why would he want to walk or cycle there seeing as he had a car.
You know why. Cars are more likely to be seen & are noisey. There may have been CCTV, speed cameras etc.
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there will of course be an explanation ::)
He was trying to lower his cholesterol levels? ;)
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He was trying to lower his cholesterol levels? ;)
;D
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You know why. Cars are more likely to be seen & are noisey. There may have been CCTV, speed cameras etc.
try and remember what year this was - so unlikely.
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You know why. Cars are more likely to be seen & are noisey. There may have been CCTV, speed cameras etc.
Do you actually know the area you're talking about?
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So you think Jeremy drove there ?
He actually had lots of options. Cycle, the bike was at his cottage. Drive, he had a car. Walk, he had two legs. WHF was nearby & it was a mild evening.
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So you think Jeremy drove there ?
He actually had lots of options. Cycle, the bike was at his cottage. Drive, he had a car. Walk, he had two legs. WHF was nearby & it was a mild evening.
I think it's several miles even as the crow flies.
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So you think Jeremy drove there ?
He actually had lots of options. Cycle, the bike was at his cottage. Drive, he had a car. Walk, he had two legs. WHF was nearby & it was a mild evening.
The evening was cool for the time of the year and there had been a shower. If I remember rightly,it was 11 degrees.
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From 9, Head Street to WHF there are numerous farm tracks.
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So you think Jeremy drove there ?
He actually had lots of options. Cycle, the bike was at his cottage. Drive, he had a car. Walk, he had two legs. WHF was nearby & it was a mild evening.
no personally i dont think he drove there walked there or cycled there because i don't think he was there.
i just wondered why nobody in the guilty camp suggests the possibility of driving instead of the cycling theory.
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From 9, Head Street to WHF there are numerous farm tracks.
Perhaps so, but the closer they are to his doorstep, the further the trek. I'm of the opinion that you're not actually FEELING what may or not have happened, you're just throwing words/suggestions around to see where they fall.
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no personally i dont think he drove there walked there or cycled there because i don't think he was there.
i just wondered why nobody in the guilty camp suggests the possibility of driving instead of the cycling theory.
Especially with the curtain-twitchers living nearby wondering " where Jeremy was going at that time of the night !"
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well if he was on a bike and wearing a wetsuit they would certanly wonder where he was going.
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You know why. Cars are more likely to be seen & are noisey. There may have been CCTV, speed cameras etc.
Not if you've got one of those new Indian electric cars. He could have painted it black and tied pairs of slippers around the tyres.
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Not if you've got one of those new Indian electric cars. He could have painted it black and tied pairs of slippers around the tyres.
;D brilliant
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well if he was on a bike and wearing a wetsuit they would certanly wonder where he was going.
Absolutely,nugs,,but they'd have definitely heard/seen a vehicle leaving his house.
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You know why. Cars are more likely to be seen & are noisey. There may have been CCTV, speed cameras etc.
they dident have cctv back then not in the countryside anyway.
and a cctv camra would of spotted him if he was cycling just the same as driving.
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they dident have cctv back then not in the countryside anyway.
and a cctv camra would of spotted if he was cycling just the same as driveing.
Back then only the rich and gangsters had cctv. ;D
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I am sorry but I have been unable to create a Sheila scenario which matched the crime scene & bullet allocation. Is anyone able to do this ? We can then discuss it.
Page 20 has my Jeremy scenario together with matching bullet allocation, which as now been discussed.
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Adam I am getting the feeling you are leaning towards Jeremy innocent. Am I right.
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Adam I am getting the feeling you are leaning towards Jeremy innocent. Am I right.
An open mind Susan.
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Adam that is the best approach to anything keep an open mind you will achieve the correct answer in the end.
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Agree.
Do you have a Sheila scenario ? Perhaps make me look at things differently.
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An open mind Susan.
Open mind,,,,,my eye. You're another one that would have had him hung,drawn and quartered.
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lookout I am so disappointed I was getting vibes from Adam that he was now thinking Jeremy innocent. Back to the drawing board or tea leaves. ;D
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Give me a Sheila scenario to make me think.
The whole process probably only lasted a few minutes. Either Jeremy killing as described on page 20. Or Sheila in a rage killing everyone & then herself.
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Give me a Sheila scenario to make me think.
The whole process probably only lasted a few minutes. Either Jeremy killing as described on page 20. Or Sheila in a rage killing everyone & then herself.
I believe it took more than a few minutes. The fight with Neville would have taken some time.
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I cant give you the scenario because the final position of the bodies was not clear , plus in the police exercise the bodies were moved as was the gun and its not clear about when or who took the photos or when. plus the carpets etc that might have shown patterns of blood belonging to the victims to prove any movements about the house were destroyed on orders of the police. Plus the ballistic evidence produced in court appears to be incorrect. So If someone produces a scenario what do you base it on?
But I have one question to ask you - if you believe JB did it when the police arrived that house would have been completely silent and no signs of movement at all . And taking into account this was before all todays H&S assesments etc, and the fact that they knew there were two young children possibly bleeding to death , why did they wait outside ( with JB with them ) for HOURS before going into the house? They would have heard nothing ( because all would have been dead) they would have seen nothing so WHY wait so long even when the armed police arrived. This is the bit that to me does not add up. But if you see the entries in the police logs it makes perfect sense.
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I cant give you the scenario because the final position of the bodies was not clear , plus in the police exercise the bodies were moved as was the gun and its not clear about when or who took the photos or when. plus the carpets etc that might have shown patterns of blood belonging to the victims to prove any movements about the house were destroyed on orders of the police. Plus the ballistic evidence produced in court appears to be incorrect. So If someone produces a scenario what do you base it on?
But I have one question to ask you - if you believe JB did it when the police arrived that house would have been completely silent and no signs of movement at all . And taking into account this was before all todays H&S assesments etc, and the fact that they knew there were two young children possibly bleeding to death , why did they wait outside ( with JB with them ) for HOURS before going into the house? They would have heard nothing ( because all would have been dead) they would have seen nothing so WHY wait so long even when the armed police arrived. This is the bit that to me does not add up. But if you see the entries in the police logs it makes perfect sense.
I have always found this highly odd! Knowing there were little children possibly held hostage, why didn´t they act sooner???
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That is a start Alias.
The problem I have is fitting in at least five minutes where Neville is cowering in the kitchen making two phone calls. Dial up phones are slow & the numbers in Essex are long. An asleep Jeremy may not answer for several rings.
She is either going crazy, so there is no time to make a phone call. Or she is not going crazy, so why make the phone calls ?
To be honest I have never answered a phone at 3am !
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I cant give you the scenario because the final position of the bodies was not clear , plus in the police exercise the bodies were moved as was the gun and its not clear about when or who took the photos or when. plus the carpets etc that might have shown patterns of blood belonging to the victims to prove any movements about the house were destroyed on orders of the police. Plus the ballistic evidence produced in court appears to be incorrect. So If someone produces a scenario what do you base it on?
But I have one question to ask you - if you believe JB did it when the police arrived that house would have been completely silent and no signs of movement at all . And taking into account this was before all todays H&S assesments etc, and the fact that they knew there were two young children possibly bleeding to death , why did they wait outside ( with JB with them ) for HOURS before going into the house? They would have heard nothing ( because all would have been dead) they would have seen nothing so WHY wait so long even when the armed police arrived. This is the bit that to me does not add up. But if you see the entries in the police logs it makes perfect sense.
The police waited for armed response.
I do not know the protocol the armed response team have in this situation. However everyone at the time agreed to wait for daylight. There is no record of Jeremy complaining about this.
A loud hailer tried to get a response, but met with silence. Although several years later Jeremy tried to claim there were conversations after reading a police log written by someone not at the house. Indirectly claiming the police & armed response unit were already trying to frame him even before the bodies had been found.
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That is a start Alias.
The problem I have is fitting in at least five minutes where Neville is cowering in the kitchen making two phone calls. Dial up phones are slow & the numbers in Essex are long. An asleep Jeremy may not answer for several rings.
She is either going crazy, so there is no time to make a phone call. Or she is not going crazy, so why make the phone calls ?
To be honest I have never answered a phone at 3am !
I have and it's not to be recommended. Adam, when the term "going crazy" is uttered we all draw on our own experiences for it's meaning and it means different things to different people.
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I cant give you the scenario because the final position of the bodies was not clear , plus in the police exercise the bodies were moved as was the gun and its not clear about when or who took the photos or when. plus the carpets etc that might have shown patterns of blood belonging to the victims to prove any movements about the house were destroyed on orders of the police. Plus the ballistic evidence produced in court appears to be incorrect. So If someone produces a scenario what do you base it on?
But I have one question to ask you - if you believe JB did it when the police arrived that house would have been completely silent and no signs of movement at all . And taking into account this was before all todays H&S assesments etc, and the fact that they knew there were two young children possibly bleeding to death , why did they wait outside ( with JB with them ) for HOURS before going into the house? They would have heard nothing ( because all would have been dead) they would have seen nothing so WHY wait so long even when the armed police arrived. This is the bit that to me does not add up. But if you see the entries in the police logs it makes perfect sense.
We do know a lot.
What rooms the bodies were in. How many bullets each person had. The kitchen fight. Where the gun is. Where the bedroom & kitchen phones were.
That is enough to make up a scenario. I did.
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I have and it's not to be recommended. Adam, when the term "going crazy" is uttered we all draw on our own experiences for it's meaning and it means different things to different people.
Agree.
Crazy - running around the house killing people.
No time to make two phone calls.
Crazy - holding a gun & being a immature. Pretending to be Clint Eastwood. Asking how it works etc. Keeping Neville awake.
No point in making phone calls.
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We don't know where the gun was found. WPC Jeapes sighted a rifle in the window of the box room that connects main bedroom to the twins room. Not long after this sighting,the raid team went in. One of the raid team members does not recall any rifle on or near SC's body when he first saw her on entry. Also,we don't know where the bodies were found. Police logs have one male and one female being found on entry - one murder and one suicide. Around 20 minutes later,a further 3 bodies were discovered upstairs. This does not tally with the 'official' version from EP. JB's defence team had to take EP to court to obtain those police logs. So,would be interested in how you would adapt your 'scenario' to explain how 2 bodies downstairs and 3 upstairs became one down and 4 up?
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That is a start Alias.
The problem I have is fitting in at least five minutes where Neville is cowering in the kitchen making two phone calls. Dial up phones are slow & the numbers there are long. An asleep Jeremy may not answer for several rings.
She is either going crazy, so there is no time to make a phone call. Or she is not going crazy, so why make the phone calls ?
To be honest I have never answered a phone at 3am !
I have!
OK, I will give in to you request for a "scenario". It is bound to be flawed, and I don´t really like doing this, but here goes.
I believe the twins were shot first. In a way I think they were the main target; the twins and Sheila herself. Sheila had some very unsettling thoughts about them: they were the Devil´s children, and she was afraid they were capable of raping and killing her (Sheila´s own words). Also keeping in mind June´s words to Sheila: You are the Devil´s child, in her twisted mind Sheila could have done this as a revenge to/request from her mother.
The shots woke her parents up, or Sheila came to the bedroom with the rifle shouting at them, I don´t know. Her parents in their wildest dreams would not imagine she had shot the twins or would shoot any of them - if they had heard the shots, they would have thought she just shot into walls, floor or ceiling in the corridor. Perhaps Neville managed to calm her down momentarily and thought it would be safe to run downstairs to alert Jeremy (and the police??). Then all hell broke lose in the bedroom, perhaps shouting, perhaps Sheila shot June who was still in bed, petrified. Neville heard this.
Enter Neville in the bedroom, got shot four times, stumbled down the stairs, got shot again on the way down. Sheila after him. The fight took place - Neville, severely injured, would not have been hard for Sheila to overpower, I think he received some of the beating sitting down actually. Why the fight took place, I don´t know, probably because she needed to reloand the rifle, maybe paired with the fact that Sheila felt especially betrayed by Neville who had hitherto been on her side, but recently had agreed that it would be a good idea to put the twins in foster care. Who knows.
Sheila goes upstairs, shoots June between the eyes as a final act of revenge and contempt.
Sheila might not have gone to bed at all that night (stomach contents support this - the look of her bed supports this) and would have still be wearing her day clothes during the killings. She might have have taken off those clothes, put them in soak (sounds odd, but the atmosphere about Sheila in death is "clean", she looks very, very clean. Perhaps this whole thing was a catharsis for her), taken a bath and put on her night gown, prepering herself for her suicide, reading the Bible, then shooting herself close to her mother for whom she had done all this: ridding the world of the "Devil´s children": Herself and the twins. "Ha, mother, see what I did, I did it FOR YOU!"
This makes sense to me, there is a logic in it, if I may say so myself! Sheila was a woman who had lost EVERYTHING. Her career, all petty jobs, her husband, her sanity and was now about to lose her children, whom she had already lost partially.
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Agree.
Crazy - running around the house killing people.
No time to make two phone calls.
Crazy - holding a gun & being a immature. Pretending to be Clint Eastwood. Asking how it works etc. Keeping Neville awake.
No point in making phone calls.
Or how about crazy as in not responding. As in talking/arguing with someone/something unseen, very quietly, maybe even talking to the gun itself, just wandering. Plenty of time to make a call..............but at what point, she'll come to her senses any moment, won't she?
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Alias excellent post all of which I agree with. I think Ralph was beaten whilst in a sitting position and the burn marks inflicted on his back around the same time think both acts were acts of contempt as Sheila I am sure would have felt badly let down by her Father who was always her rock and to think he may have allowed her boys to be taken away from her was just too much after all the other events leading upto her visit to WHF. Very sad indeed :(
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Thank you Alias.
That is a different & interesting scenario I can think and comment about. After I have been to the gym !
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I have!
OK, I will give in to you request for a "scenario". It is bound to be flawed, and I don´t really like doing this, but here goes.
I believe the twins were shot first. In a way I think they were the main target; the twins and Sheila herself. Sheila had some very unsettling thoughts about them: they were the Devil´s children, and she was afraid they were capable of raping and killing her (Sheila´s own words). Also keeping in mind June´s words to Sheila: You are the Devil´s child, in her twisted mind Sheila could have done this as a revenge to/request from her mother.
The shots woke her parents up, or Sheila came to the bedroom with the rifle shouting at them, I don´t know. Her parents in their wildest dreams would not imagine she had shot the twins or would shoot any of them - if they had heard the shots, they would have thought she just shot into walls, floor or ceiling in the corridor. Perhaps Neville managed to calm her down momentarily and thought it would be safe to run downstairs to alert Jeremy (and the police??). Then all hell broke lose in the bedroom, perhaps shouting, perhaps Sheila shot June who was still in bed, petrified. Neville heard this.
Enter Neville in the bedroom, got shot four times, stumbled down the stairs, got shot again on the way down. Sheila after him. The fight took place - Neville, severely injured, would not have been hard for Sheila to overpower, I think he received some of the beating sitting down actually. Why the fight took place, I don´t know, probably because she needed to reloand the rifle, maybe paired with the fact that Sheila felt especially betrayed by Neville who had hitherto been on her side, but recently had agreed that it would be a good idea to put the twins in foster care. Who knows.
Sheila goes upstairs, shoots June between the eyes as a final act of revenge and contempt.
Sheila might not have gone to bed at all that night (stomach contents support this - the look of her bed supports this) and would have still be wearing her day clothes during the killings. She might have have taken off those clothes, put them in soak (sounds odd, but the atmosphere about Sheila in death is "clean", she looks very, very clean. Perhaps this whole thing was a catharsis for her), taken a bath and put on her night gown, prepering herself for her suicide, reading the Bible, then shooting herself close to her mother for whom she had done all this: ridding the world of the "Devil´s children": Herself and the twins. "Ha, mother, see what I did, I did it FOR YOU!"
This makes sense to me, there is a logic in it, if I may say so myself! Sheila was a woman who had lost EVERYTHING. Her career, all petty jobs, her husband, her sanity and was now about to lose her children, whom she had already lost partially.
Alias, I can go with all of that. In the last 18 weeks of Sheila's life, I believe EVERYTHING she'd ever craved had been ripped away from her. I believe that every "If only" fantasy had been exploded and there was nothing left.
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Thank you Alias.
That is a different & interesting scenario I can think and comment about. After I have been to the gym !
Thanks, susie and Adam. This is how I have always imagined the killings, and I am probably wrong, but still it makes a lot of sense to me and is quite simple actually.
Have a nice workout, Adam!
I have another scenario which I contemplate from time to time. A third party did this - a third party with a voice similar to Neville´s, which could have fooled Jeremy into believing the call was from his father; but that is more far fetched, and I like to go with the simple, staightforward.
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Adam go and pump iron and think of the brilliant scenario Alias put up and whatever you do don't think of Barnsley ;D
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Adam go and pump iron and think of the brilliant scenario Alias put up and whatever you do don't think of Barnsley ;D
HAHAHA
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Alias ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Barnsley indeed ;D ;D ;D
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I have!
OK, I will give in to you request for a "scenario". It is bound to be flawed, and I don´t really like doing this, but here goes.
I believe the twins were shot first. In a way I think they were the main target; the twins and Sheila herself. Sheila had some very unsettling thoughts about them: they were the Devil´s children, and she was afraid they were capable of raping and killing her (Sheila´s own words). Also keeping in mind June´s words to Sheila: You are the Devil´s child, in her twisted mind Sheila could have done this as a revenge to/request from her mother.
The shots woke her parents up, or Sheila came to the bedroom with the rifle shouting at them, I don´t know. Her parents in their wildest dreams would not imagine she had shot the twins or would shoot any of them - if they had heard the shots, they would have thought she just shot into walls, floor or ceiling in the corridor. Perhaps Neville managed to calm her down momentarily and thought it would be safe to run downstairs to alert Jeremy (and the police??). Then all hell broke lose in the bedroom, perhaps shouting, perhaps Sheila shot June who was still in bed, petrified. Neville heard this.
Enter Neville in the bedroom, got shot four times, stumbled down the stairs, got shot again on the way down. Sheila after him. The fight took place - Neville, severely injured, would not have been hard for Sheila to overpower, I think he received some of the beating sitting down actually. Why the fight took place, I don´t know, probably because she needed to reloand the rifle, maybe paired with the fact that Sheila felt especially betrayed by Neville who had hitherto been on her side, but recently had agreed that it would be a good idea to put the twins in foster care. Who knows.
Sheila goes upstairs, shoots June between the eyes as a final act of revenge and contempt.
Sheila might not have gone to bed at all that night (stomach contents support this - the look of her bed supports this) and would have still be wearing her day clothes during the killings. She might have have taken off those clothes, put them in soak (sounds odd, but the atmosphere about Sheila in death is "clean", she looks very, very clean. Perhaps this whole thing was a catharsis for her), taken a bath and put on her night gown, prepering herself for her suicide, reading the Bible, then shooting herself close to her mother for whom she had done all this: ridding the world of the "Devil´s children": Herself and the twins. "Ha, mother, see what I did, I did it FOR YOU!"
This makes sense to me, there is a logic in it, if I may say so myself! Sheila was a woman who had lost EVERYTHING. Her career, all petty jobs, her husband, her sanity and was now about to lose her children, whom she had already lost partially.
It is a good scenario Alias but, if the twins were shot first that would be at least 8 shots, then if June was next, that would be at least one more shot - that only leaves 2 for Neville. However, he was shot 4 times so unless she took extra amo it doesn't account for all of the shots fired. I certainly agree with your reasoning though!!
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It is a good scenario Alias but, if the twins were shot first that would be at least 8 shots, then if June was next, that would be at least one more shot - that only leaves 2 for Neville. However, he was shot 4 times so unless she took extra amo it doesn't account for all of the shots fired. I certainly agree with your reasoning though!!
I said it would be flawed! However, let´s say Sheila shot the Twins with fewer shots initially, say, two each or only one, or one for one twin, two for the other, before going to her parents´ bedroom, that´s two to four, then one or two for June, that leaves enough for Neville. She could have gone back and shot the twins and June again after she killed Neville.
Or she could have reloaded after the twins were shot before entering the bedroom. OR she could have made two rifles ready.
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Adam go and pump iron and think of the brilliant scenario Alias put up and whatever you do don't think of Barnsley ;D
My scenario is on page 20.
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I have!
OK, I will give in to you request for a "scenario". It is bound to be flawed, and I don´t really like doing this, but here goes.
I believe the twins were shot first. In a way I think they were the main target; the twins and Sheila herself. Sheila had some very unsettling thoughts about them: they were the Devil´s children, and she was afraid they were capable of raping and killing her (Sheila´s own words). Also keeping in mind June´s words to Sheila: You are the Devil´s child, in her twisted mind Sheila could have done this as a revenge to/request from her mother.
The shots woke her parents up, or Sheila came to the bedroom with the rifle shouting at them, I don´t know. Her parents in their wildest dreams would not imagine she had shot the twins or would shoot any of them - if they had heard the shots, they would have thought she just shot into walls, floor or ceiling in the corridor. Perhaps Neville managed to calm her down momentarily and thought it would be safe to run downstairs to alert Jeremy (and the police??). Then all hell broke lose in the bedroom, perhaps shouting, perhaps Sheila shot June who was still in bed, petrified. Neville heard this.
Enter Neville in the bedroom, got shot four times, stumbled down the stairs, got shot again on the way down. Sheila after him. The fight took place - Neville, severely injured, would not have been hard for Sheila to overpower, I think he received some of the beating sitting down actually. Why the fight took place, I don´t know, probably because she needed to reloand the rifle, maybe paired with the fact that Sheila felt especially betrayed by Neville who had hitherto been on her side, but recently had agreed that it would be a good idea to put the twins in foster care. Who knows.
Sheila goes upstairs, shoots June between the eyes as a final act of revenge and contempt.
Sheila might not have gone to bed at all that night (stomach contents support this - the look of her bed supports this) and would have still be wearing her day clothes during the killings. She might have have taken off those clothes, put them in soak (sounds odd, but the atmosphere about Sheila in death is "clean", she looks very, very clean. Perhaps this whole thing was a catharsis for her), taken a bath and put on her night gown, prepering herself for her suicide, reading the Bible, then shooting herself close to her mother for whom she had done all this: ridding the world of the "Devil´s children": Herself and the twins. "Ha, mother, see what I did, I did it FOR YOU!"
This makes sense to me, there is a logic in it, if I may say so myself! Sheila was a woman who had lost EVERYTHING. Her career, all petty jobs, her husband, her sanity and was now about to lose her children, whom she had already lost partially.
My queries on this -
We only have Jeremys word on the potential fostering.
The children were shot 8 times. Without a silencer would she have the time to do this before being restrained ?
Neville & June calming her down will result in the gun being taken off her. Neville & June will now be aware of the twins death & will have the gun.
June would have been sent downstairs to make the phone calls. Neville is stronger & gets on better with Sheila.
Neville if downstairs did not need to ring Jeremy at 3am. The damage had been done & things were under control. The police were coming over.
If Neville heard shots from upstairs, he only heard two. The gun only had ten bullets, eight which had been used on the twins. He would have restrained her upstairs. June would have only been shot twice.
If everyone was shot & Sheila changed. Would the police not see bloodied clothes in a sink ?
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I said it would be flawed! However, let´s say Sheila shot the Twins with fewer shots initially, say, two each or only one, or one for one twin, two for the other, before going to her parents´ bedroom, that´s two to four, then one or two for June, that leaves enough for Neville. She could have gone back and shot the twins and June again after she killed Neville.
Or she could have reloaded after the twins were shot before entering the bedroom. OR she could have made two rifles ready.
They're all flawed Alias, like you, I hate scenarios. We can't know what went on and the more you think about it, the more complicated it gets. Personally, I think the twins were killed after Neville and June. But that might be wrong also. I do know one thing, that if Neville called Jeremy, it 'had' to be 'before; anyone was shot or seriously injured. But if shots had been fired, I think he would have mentioned it.
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I cant give you the scenario because the final position of the bodies was not clear , plus in the police exercise the bodies were moved as was the gun and its not clear about when or who took the photos or when. plus the carpets etc that might have shown patterns of blood belonging to the victims to prove any movements about the house were destroyed on orders of the police. Plus the ballistic evidence produced in court appears to be incorrect. So If someone produces a scenario what do you base it on?
But I have one question to ask you - if you believe JB did it when the police arrived that house would have been completely silent and no signs of movement at all . And taking into account this was before all todays H&S assesments etc, and the fact that they knew there were two young children possibly bleeding to death , why did they wait outside ( with JB with them ) for HOURS before going into the house? They would have heard nothing ( because all would have been dead) they would have seen nothing so WHY wait so long even when the armed police arrived. This is the bit that to me does not add up. But if you see the entries in the police logs it makes perfect sense.
Jeremy claimed several years later there were conversations from outside the house. This was after seeing a log from an officer not at the house. Jeremy was at WHF from the first minute. He will know that was not the case.
So he was simply lying to try to get released.
There is a slim chance he was in his car & not aware of what was happening. However if there were conversations surely the police will tell Jeremy the good news, that people are alive. They will also need Jeremys help. After all Neville had asked him to come over & save the day.
Either way, he indirectly accused the Essex Police of framing him from day one.
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They're all flawed Alias, like you, I hate scenarios. We can't know what went on and the more you think about it, the more complicated it gets. Personally, I think the twins were killed after Neville and June. But that might be wrong also. I do know one thing, that if Neville called Jeremy, it 'had' to be 'before; anyone was shot or seriously injured. But if shots had been fired, I think he would have mentioned it.
My scenario on page 20 matches the crime scene & bullet allocation.
It also does not include any phone calls ? !
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Jeremy claimed several years later there were conversations from outside the house. This was after seeing a log from an officer not at the house. Jeremy was at WHF from the first minute. He will know that was not the case.
So he was simply lying to try to get released.
There is a slim chance he was in his car & not aware of what was happening. However if there were conversations surely the police will tell Jeremy the good news, that people are alive. They will also need Jeremys help. After all Neville had asked him to come over & save the day.
Either way, he indirectly accused the Essex Police of framing him from day one.
He didn't say he heard the conversation!! He was well back from the front line of events and had no idea what was going on. Of course he only mentioned it when the log was discovered - he didn't know anything about it until then!!
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My queries on this -
We only have Jeremys word on the potential fostering.
The twins had been in day foster with a family before, it is not at all unlikely that this was discussed. Colin, with a new girlfriend, didn´t want the hassle - Sheila couldn´t cope. It is VERY likely this was discussed.
The children were shot 8 times. Without a silencer would she have the time to do this before being restrained ?
As I said in a post above, she might have shot the twins only once or twice initially, then returned after killing Neville, returned to shoot them again.
Neville & June calming her down will result in the gun being taken off her. Neville & June will now be aware of the twins death & will have the gun.
I agree that for Neville to go downstairs to make a phonecall, the rifle had to have been taken from Sheila - OR she just put it down. She could have grabbed it again though.
June would have been sent downstairs to make the phone calls. Neville is stronger & gets on better with Sheila.
Tells me a lot about how you regard women: June would have been SENT! Never mind.... We don´t know, perhaps it was June who momentarily calmed Sheila down, the beating of Neville indicates a big amount of rage towards him.
Neville if downstairs did not need to ring Jeremy at 3am. The damage had been done & things were under control. The police were coming over.
Neville must have been shocked and perhaps NEEDED to talk to Jeremy, his son with whom he worked on a daily basis.
If Neville heard shots from upstairs, he only heard two. The gun only had ten bullets, eight which had been used on the twins. He would have restrained her upstairs. June would have only been shot twice.
We don´t know that. We don´t know how many bullets were fired into each victim initially.
If everyone was shot & Sheila changed. Would the police not see bloodied clothes in a sink ?
The clothes were soaking in two buckets in the kitchen - there was blood in the water, at least in one of the buckets. Ann Eaton washed the blood away.
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He didn't say he heard the conversation!! He was well back from the front line of events and had no idea what was going on. Of course he only mentioned it when the log was discovered - he didn't know anything about it until then!!
Not sure he was well back. He was directing things. If guilty, leading the police in one direction. Drawing maps & walking around the building.
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Not sure he was well back. He was directing things. If guilty, leading the police in one direction. Drawing maps & walking around the building.
No Adam, he was not directing things, when he arrived he walked round the house with the police, he answered the questions they asked him but most of the time was in a police car well back from the farmhouse.
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Adam will read your scenario and get back to you with my comments.
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Personally I can't see any book, film or website to be truthful to the point where it exonerates a person or implicates a person.
The point of focus is forensic science, experiments and dedication to millions of documents. The answer lays here and no one will find it in any book.
On saying that I think Roger Wilkes book is very good, its well researched and in places factual and this is what makes a good book.
However, I can't wait to read Paul Harrison's book..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Once a 6.4 & healthy Neville had the gun, he was not going to let it go.
If the twins were only shot two times each at first, the six bullets left would not be enough to restrain both June & Neville if she started shooting again.
Neville was in the bedroom long enough to be shot 4 times. Yet did not confront Sheila, who was running out of bullets. Instead running to the kitchen where he was beaten.
Jeremy did not get along with his dad. Or Sheila & June.
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Adam will read your scenario and get back to you with my comments.
Good.
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Good.
Which includes Jeremy on a bike in a wetsuit and gloves...
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Once a 6.4 & healthy Neville had the gun, he was not going to let it go.
Perhaps it didn´t happen that way, but rather, Sheila had prepared two rifles and didn´t put it down at all - or she had reloaded after she shot the twins. We just don´t know.
If the twins were only shot two times each at first, the six bullets left would not be enough to restrain both June & Neville if she started shooting again.
See above.
Neville was in the bedroom long enough to be shot 4 times. Yet did not confront Sheila, who was running out of bullets. Instead running to the kitchen where he was beaten.
Maybe he was in no state to confront anybody, just tried to flee.
Jeremy did not get along with his dad. Or Sheila & June.
That is what is claimed, but we don´t know that for sure, do we? In a crisis, who do you turn to? Yes, your family typically.
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Which includes Jeremy on a bike in a wetsuit and gloves...
He might as well have had a bell on the bike to let everyone know it was him for what truth there was in it.
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Not sure he was well back. He was directing things. If guilty, leading the police in one direction. Drawing maps & walking around the building.
Methinks you don't know much about police operations? Police do not allow a member of the public to "direct" things. If anything they get members of public away from the operation. This is for (1) safety to the public. (2) So they won't hinder the operation. Why do you think they took him to his own house to phone Julie Mugford? It was to get him out of the way.
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Hello Adam
I have been led to believe that the fostering of the twins had been discussed before I think with a Social Worker. Patti will confirm this and elaborate. I believe the rifle with a silencer would only make a slight clicking noise. Parts of your post are too complicated for me to comment but I think Sheila did take a shower and her soiled clothes were left to soak in the two buckets found in the kitchen or maybe they were burnt in the Aga.
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Methinks you don't know much about police operations? Police do not allow a member of the public to "direct" things. If anything they get members of public away from the operation. This is for (1) safety to the public. (2) So they won't hinder the operation. Why do you think they took him to his own house to phone Julie Mugford? It was to get him out of the way.
Indeed,Grahame,,the police move in mysterious ways !
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lookout think he had a miners light strapped to his head so he could see where he was going. Did not have a bell though as people would see his light ;D
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Indeed,Grahame,,the police move in mysterious ways !
If you think about it, it is a very practical way of handling things. Police move in on a situation and immediately take control. Because people in this kind of situation are as mad as a box of cats and flapping around all over the place in a tiswas. That is one reason that if police get involved in any situation to be directed by them alone. Better for your health that way. :)
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Hello Adam
I have been led to believe that the fostering of the twins had been discussed before I think with a Social Worker. Patti will confirm this and elaborate. I believe the rifle with a silencer would only make a slight clicking noise. Parts of your post are too complicated for me to comment but I think Sheila did take a shower and her soiled clothes were left to soak in the two buckets found in the kitchen or maybe they were burnt in the Aga.
Hi Susan :)
It was PB who said that June had tried to persuade Sheila to take a holiday to Bournemouth and arrange some child care for the twins......I think the word fostering is blown out of proportion and it was more like child care they were talking about...Was it not suggested this might be an idea to give Sheila a break and try to get her to work if she came to live back home????? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Jeremy claimed several years later there were conversations from outside the house. This was after seeing a log from an officer not at the house. Jeremy was at WHF from the first minute. He will know that was not the case.
So he was simply lying to try to get released.
There is a slim chance he was in his car & not aware of what was happening. However if there were conversations surely the police will tell Jeremy the good news, that people are alive. They will also need Jeremys help. After all Neville had asked him to come over & save the day.
Either way, he indirectly accused the Essex Police of framing him from day one.
so if it was all quiet and no movement why did they wait over 4 hours to go in?
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Hello Jansus why did the Police request armed backup unless they thought somebody in the house was still alive and was maybe in possession of a rifle.
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He might as well have had a bell on the bike to let everyone know it was him for what truth there was in it.
Ahh but Lookout ISABELL necessary on a bike? sorry x
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Not sure he was well back. He was directing things. If guilty, leading the police in one direction. Drawing maps & walking around the building.
EEEEEEEEEEEK That's SO like Steve, it's creepy!!!!!!!
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We do know a lot.
What rooms the bodies were in. How many bullets each person had. The kitchen fight. Where the gun is. Where the bedroom & kitchen phones were.
That is enough to make up a scenario. I did.
so who was the female body in the kitchen that the police reported in their log? And how come they told JM that Sheila was found on the bed? I am looking at this from the police point of view of the police now not JB. So no I don't think you know with any certainty where all the bodies were at the time of death - which is why your Scenario could be flawed. Also why on earth would the police that entered the house afterwards be allowed to move the bodies before all SOC pictures were taken? Also what happened to the bullet in SB that was in fragments - but in court had magically appeared as a whole bullet?
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Hi ralf was Isabell on a bike as well . Maybe they should have had a tandem ;D ;D ;D :-* :-* :-*
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Jansus yes many unanswered questions not just as black and white as Adam is making out. I am sure some of these questions will be answered in Paul's book. The book title could be a clue ;)
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Hi ralf was Isabell on a bike as well . Maybe they should have had a tandem ;D ;D ;D :-* :-* :-*
Can tha ride tandem? Don't believe the bike theory and wet suit one bit Susan.
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ralf I will ride a tandem anytime with youxx. The bike theory and wetsuit and marigold gloves is just a tale that steve uk seemed to be fond of ;D
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Ahh but Lookout ISABELL necessary on a bike? sorry x
Aww,Ralf. ;D x
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Methinks you don't know much about police operations? Police do not allow a member of the public to "direct" things. If anything they get members of public away from the operation. This is for (1) safety to the public. (2) So they won't hinder the operation. Why do you think they took him to his own house to phone Julie Mugford? It was to get him out of the way.
I do not know much about police operations.
But assume a worried Jeremy would want to be kept informed & being a family member would be. He would have at least one officer keeping him company throughout. How was Sheila supposedly engaging ? Shouting out through a window, or was there a loud speaker in the house ?
If there were conversations the police would never suspect & charge Jeremy. Unless they were all after him.
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Hello Adam
I have been led to believe that the fostering of the twins had been discussed before I think with a Social Worker. Patti will confirm this and elaborate. I believe the rifle with a silencer would only make a slight clicking noise. Parts of your post are too complicated for me to comment but I think Sheila did take a shower and her soiled clothes were left to soak in the two buckets found in the kitchen or maybe they were burnt in the Aga.
To complicated ? You mean the post on page 20 ?
Quite straight forward really. I will fish it out.
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I do not know much about police operations.
But assume a worried Jeremy would want to be kept informed & being a family member would be. He would have at least one officer keeping him company throughout. How was Sheila supposedly engaging ? Shouting out through a window, or was there a loud speaker in the house ?
If there were conversations the police would never suspect & charge Jeremy. Unless they were all after him.
I agree with that. In my humble opinion, it is a misunderstanding due to unclear wording in the police report.
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Perfectly beleivable scenario for me -
Jeremy rides to WHF in a wet suit - He had a wet suit, bike & knew the routes.
He gets through the bathroom window without making a noise or leaving evidence - He is used to getting in & wore gloves.
The phones are disabled & gun picked up.
He starts shooting a sleeping June - Blood on the pillow (5)
Neville wakes & gets up & is shot - Torso shots (4)
Neville heads to the kitchen - Back shot (1)
He is caught up and beaten - Gun is now empty. Nevilles black eyes, damaged jaw.
Gun re loaded and Neville shot again - Head shots (3)
June has staggered out of bed. She is shot again (2)
Sheila is woken & told she needs to go into the main bedroom. She is immediatly pulled to the floor, held down & shot. Still alive she is shot again - Two bullet wounds (2)
The twins are shot while sleeping - Found in bed (eight).
Silencer taken off - Not found on gun.
A gun & bible is put on & by Sheila - Both found on/by her.
Bedroom phone brought downstairs & plugged in - No blood on phone.
Kitchen phone hidden - Found under newpapers. In working order.
Silencer put in box in gun cupboard - Found in a box in the gun cupboard.
Exit out of the kitchen window - Lockable from outside.
Back home, wash & get ready to make phone calls.
Susan, what is so complicated ?
There is no reason why Sheila should wake up. Especially if her bedroom door was shut. June & Neville were shot with a silencer on.The fight was in another part of the house. The twins were also asleep in their beds.
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Were you there by any chance,Adam ??
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Susan, what is so complicated ?
There is no reason why Sheila should wake up. Especially if her bedroom door was shut. June & Neville were shot with a silencer on.The fight was in another part of the house. The twins were also asleep in their beds.
Yes there is! Her room next to her parents´ and very close by the twins´. Are you saying it all went down quietly? It sure looks messy and disorganized to me! There would have been a lot, I mean, A LOT of noise!
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Yes there is! Her room next to her parents´ and very close by the twins´. Are you saying it all went down quietly? It sure looks messy and disorganized to me! There would have been a lot, I mean, A LOT of noise!
What noise in the bedroom ? Silencer shots ? Neville standing up & then running out of the room. Less than two minutes of activity. The evidence shows there was no fight in the bedroom.
Neville running down the stairs & being shot once more with a silencer. Then being followed by Jeremy ? Another 30 seconds of not very noisey action.
The fight downstairs was brutal but quick. Jeremy had no injuries.
I am a deep sleeper & could see myself sleeping through that.
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Hello Adam
it is becoming complicated as I don't think for one moment Sheila was asleep. After June and Ralph retired Sheila IMO had laid on her bed and rose from her bed and went downstairs to eat and let us not forget the accident with her period and empty tampon holder found in the lounge. June would never have allowed an empty tampon holder to be left around the house and this is why it indicates to me June was in her bed sleeping. Think Sheila was very restless and was wandering around the house her mind in torment what happened later we have discussed previously.
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I do not know much about police operations.
But assume a worried Jeremy would want to be kept informed & being a family member would be. He would have at least one officer keeping him company throughout. How was Sheila supposedly engaging ? Shouting out through a window, or was there a loud speaker in the house ?
If there were conversations the police would never suspect & charge Jeremy. Unless they were all after him.
The police always work on the hunch that if there is a murder then it is most likely to be committed by a family member. The police inevitably latch onto a member of a family and question them over and over again trying to trip them up.
Police would have questioned Jeremy over and over. But when they come to write their formal report they inevitable only write those things that they want people to know in order to make it look as much as possible as if that person is guilty. Let us hope that you yourself never have to endure such police hounding.
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You do not agree with my scenario. That is fine.
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What noise in the bedroom ? Silencer shots ? Neville standing up & then running out of the room. Less than two minutes of activity. The evidence shows there was no fight in the bedroom.
Neville running down the stairs & being shot once more with a silencer. Then being followed by Jeremy ? Another 30 seconds of not very noisey action.
The fight downstairs was brutal but quick. Jeremy had no injuries.
I am a deep sleeper & could see myself sleeping through that.
I don´t believe Sheila was a deep sleeper, rather a night-wanderer. I am no gun expert, but I have a hard time imagining that a silencer makes a rifle fired indoors completely silent. I don´t believe that there were no shouts or screams. June would have screamed, pleaded for her life, Neville would have roared, pleading for his life. The dogs were barking on top of everything. This was NOT quiet.
Maybe we should just agree to disagree, we have been there before?
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Susan, what is so complicated ?
There is no reason why Sheila should wake up. Especially if her bedroom door was shut. June & Neville were shot with a silencer on.The fight was in another part of the house. The twins were also asleep in their beds.
But probably a complete fiction invented by you. ::)
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Adam who does not agree with your scenario. I did not say that is it me you were directing your post to.
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I don´t believe Sheila was a deep sleeper, rather a night-wanderer. I am no gun expert, but I have a hard time imagining that a silencer makes a rifle fired indoors completely silent. I don´t believe that there were no shouts or screams. June would have screamed, pleaded for her life, Neville would have roared, pleading for his life. The dogs were barking on top of everything. This was NOT quiet.
Maybe we should just agree to disagree, we have been there before?
There is a possibility Sheila woke & went into the bedroom. She was found there afterall.
June can't scream if she has been shot in the head. Which the evidence shows she was.
Neville did no pleading, only running. He would know Jeremy was there to kill him.
The small dog is either barking, asleep or hiding.
Who knows whether Sheila was in a deep or light sleep that night.
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Susan, what is so complicated ?
There is no reason why Sheila should wake up. Especially if her bedroom door was shut. June & Neville were shot with a silencer on.The fight was in another part of the house. The twins were also asleep in their beds.
To wake up, she first need to have been asleep. Historically, schizophrenics don't sleep well as evidenced by her London neighbours.
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I do not know much about police operations.
But assume a worried Jeremy would want to be kept informed & being a family member would be. He would have at least one officer keeping him company throughout. How was Sheila supposedly engaging ? Shouting out through a window, or was there a loud speaker in the house ?
If there were conversations the police would never suspect & charge Jeremy. Unless they were all after him.
He was kept company throughout. When informed all his family were dead, he blamed the police, thinking they had killed them all, and kept asking to speak to his Dad.
The police used a loudspeaker.
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He was kept company throughout. When informed all his family were dead, he blamed the police, thinking they had killed them all, and kept asking to speak to his Dad.
The police used a loudspeaker.
He said when interviewed he went into the field to be sick, but nothing came up.
He kept saying to the police 'but you said everything was going to be alright.'
He also told the police 'you must be joking, I hate the thing'. When asked about taking the dog. The dog would have messed up his stero system.
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He said when interviewed he went into the field to be sick, but nothing came up.
He kept saying to the police 'but you said everything was going to be alright.'
He also told the police 'you must be joking, I hate the thing'. When asked about taking the dog. The dog would have messed up his stero system.
It's called "retching" and is a known reaction to trauma. It's reasonable to think that he trusted what the police told him. An animal he disliked and was disliked by was hardly fit compensation for the loss of his family.
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He said when interviewed he went into the field to be sick, but nothing came up.
He kept saying to the police 'but you said everything was going to be alright.'
He also told the police 'you must be joking, I hate the thing'. When asked about taking the dog. The dog would have messed up his stero system.
All the more reason to shoot it then.
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He said when interviewed he went into the field to be sick, but nothing came up.
He kept saying to the police 'but you said everything was going to be alright.'
He also told the police 'you must be joking, I hate the thing'. When asked about taking the dog. The dog would have messed up his stero system.
Therefore, he and EP knew people were alive when they got there and they (EP) had everything under control???
What stereo system? ???
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Adam,I seriously think you need to do more reading on the case. Fostering (as in day care)WAS being discussed. Colins mother mentions it in her statement. Also,the ivory round dial telephone was in situ in the kitchen on the monday prior to the murders. Mr Pike,the telephone engineer recalls seeing there,in his statement. Allegedly,June preferred the that telephone and so it was used there whilst Nevill's cordless phone was being repaired. Could you point me to evidence that Jeremy didn't get on with his father? Nevill had recently purchased JB a small farm and told the man from the Henry Smith Trust (owners of the farm) that he was pleased with JB and that he was shaping up to be a good farmer. PS..could you please answer my earlier post asking how you think it is possible that 2 bodies found downstairs and a further 3 bodies found upstairs,became one downstairs and 4 upstairs?
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Adam,I seriously think you need to do more reading on the case. Fostering (as in day care)WAS being discussed. Colins mother mentions it in her statement. Also,the ivory round dial telephone was in situ in the kitchen on the monday prior to the murders. Mr Pike,the telephone engineer recalls seeing there,in his statement. Allegedly,June preferred the that telephone and so it was used there whilst Nevill's cordless phone was being repaired. Could you point me to evidence that Jeremy didn't get on with his father? Nevill had recently purchased JB a small farm and told the man from the Henry Smith Trust (owners of the farm) that he was pleased with JB and that he was shaping up to be a good farmer. PS..could you please answer my earlier post asking how you think it is possible that 2 bodies found downstairs and a further 3 bodies found upstairs,became one downstairs and 4 upstairs?
I have done enough reading on this case thanks.
Jeremy would tell anyone who would listen about how he hated his parents. His 'old' father was 'ready to be put to pasture'. He wanted a bigger share in the caravan site but Neville said Jeremy did not have enough business sense'. Robert Boutflour testified Jeremy said 'I could easily kill my parents'.
The location of the phones was an important enough issue to be brought up by QC Arlidge in court. There had been storms in June. But why were newspapers covering the kitchen phone? We will never know if Jeremy moved them. The house keeper also said Fairy Liquid, a sink tidy & sponge had been moved from underneath the kitchen window. There is no reason why the raid team should do this.
Only Neville was in the kitchen. Just like the 'conversations in the house' claim several years later, Jeremy saw a typed log saying 'woman & man in kitchen' & jumped on it. An officer from outside saw Nevilles long hair & assumed it was a woman.
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He said when interviewed he went into the field to be sick, but nothing came up.
He kept saying to the police 'but you said everything was going to be alright.'
He also told the police 'you must be joking, I hate the thing'. When asked about taking the dog. The dog would have messed up his stero system.
And?
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Adam,if you had "read enough" then you would know that EP admitted to moving the items around the sink whilst clearing up. Also,it wasn't a case of an officer mistaking Nevill for a woman through a window. Another log states that "one male,one female found on entry" they are then described as a "murder and a suicide". Around 20 minutes later the log states "a further 3 bodies found upstairs". The logs can't possibly be wrong - the raid team were wearing open mic's! The logs have also been edited by EP.
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Adam,if you had "read enough" then you would know that EP admitted to moving the items around the sink whilst clearing up. Also,it wasn't a case of an officer mistaking Nevill for a woman through a window. Another log states that "one male,one female found on entry" they are then described as a "murder and a suicide". Around 20 minutes later the log states "a further 3 bodies found upstairs". The logs can't possibly be wrong - the raid team were wearing open mic's! The logs have also been edited by EP.
And we have an example of it!!
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Adam
which member of EP have you spoken to that repeated the story that Jeremy hated Crispy. Jeremy was in no position to look after Crispy the dog would have been left home alone whilst Jeremy was busy running the farm. Crispy was not a working dog like Bruce who was rehomed but rather old and bad tempered and really had reached the end of his life and it would have been cruel for Jeremy to have taken him. No other family members would take him thought maybe Ann would have liked him as a pet but sadly no (not Jeremy Crispy).
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Adam I am so disappointed in you most of what you are posting is hearsay or what you presume happened try and stick to the facts that are available to us and learn from the experienced posters on the forum that is what I am doing as I am new to the forum too.
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Morning Grahame had Jeremy been responsible for the horrendous crimes at WHF and if indeed he hated Crispy as Adam is telling us why did he not shoot the dog along with the family. Adam you need to think about this as it would have been logical for Jeremy to have shot Crispy at the scene especially if he thought it would chew his equipment ;D
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Morning Grahame had Jeremy been responsible for the horrendous crimes at WHF and if indeed he hated Crispy as Adam is telling us why did he not shoot the dog along with the family. Adam you need to think about this as it would have been logical for Jeremy to have shot Crispy at the scene especially if he thought it would chew his equipment ;D
Judging by most of Adam's posts all I can say is that most of the guilters appear not to have really thought things through? They appear to be like an old record caught in a groove, saying the same thing over and over again.
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Morning Grahame Adam is not in the Guilty camp he has an open mind and very much open to persuasion he told me so. We will have to try harder as at the moment don't think we are doing too well ;D
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Adam I am so disappointed in you most of what you are posting is hearsay or what you presume happened try and stick to the facts that are available to us and learn from the experienced posters on the forum that is what I am doing as I am new to the forum too.
Hearsay. My scensrio matches the crime scene & bullet allocation. The interview transcripts are online for everyone to see. Jeremy did jump on police notes saying 'conversations in the house' & 'one man & one woman in the kitchen'.
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That is a start Alias.
The problem I have is fitting in at least five minutes where Neville is cowering in the kitchen making two phone calls. Dial up phones are slow & the numbers in Essex are long. An asleep Jeremy may not answer for several rings.
She is either going crazy, so there is no time to make a phone call. Or she is not going crazy, so why make the phone calls ?
To be honest I have never answered a phone at 3am !
Adam, this post reflects exactly my thinking.
imo the alleged phone calls from Nevill never happened.
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Morning Grahame Adam is not in the Guilty camp he has an open mind and very much open to persuasion he told me so. We will have to try harder as at the moment don't think we are doing too well ;D
Adam HASN'T got an open mind,Susan. He's making his posts quite clear to me.
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Morning Grahame had Jeremy been responsible for the horrendous crimes at WHF and if indeed he hated Crispy as Adam is telling us why did he not shoot the dog along with the family. Adam you need to think about this as it would have been logical for Jeremy to have shot Crispy at the scene especially if he thought it would chew his equipment ;D
Lots of reasons.
The dog may have been running around the house & would be hard to kill. It was found cowering under Nevilles bed.
The dog would not effect his inheritance.
He had nothing personal against the dog. It was not making him work 14 hours a day on the farm. It was not a 'nutter' or 'insane' religious woman.
Jeremys aim was to kill the adults. The dog was not an issue.
Whatever the dog saw it cannot speak.
Maybe he really had a soft spot for the dog. But would never let it stay in his cottage 'messing up his stero equipment'
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Judging by most of Adam's posts all I can say is that most of the guilters appear not to have really thought things through? They appear to be like an old record caught in a groove, saying the same thing over and over again.
Pot calling kettle ???
As I have previously stated - oops! the "guilters" (as are sometimes referred to) can keep spouting the same stuff and JB stays inside.
The "innocenters" can keep spouting the same stuff and JB stays inside - can you see my point?
It's the innocenters that have to come up with something new ;)
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Hearsay. My scensrio matches the crime scene & bullet allocation. The interview transcripts are online for everyone to see. Jeremy did jump on police notes saying 'conversations in the house' & 'one man & one woman in the kitchen'.
So Adam. What do you think about the police records of one man and one woman? One dead female, "one dead male on entry". "Three more dead upstairs." "One murder and one suicide" etc? Do you think they made three mistakes?
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Pot calling kettle ???
As I have previously stated - oops! the "guilters" (as are sometimes referred to) can keep spouting the same stuff and JB stays inside.
The "innocenters" can keep spouting the same stuff and JB stays inside - can you see my point?
It's the innocenters that have to come up with something new ;)
Yippee,Nickos,,something new is being presented to CCRC next month.
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Pot calling kettle ???
As I have previously stated - oops! the "guilters" (as are sometimes referred to) can keep spouting the same stuff and JB stays inside.
The "innocenters" can keep spouting the same stuff and JB stays inside - can you see my point?
It's the innocenters that have to come up with something new ;)
No so Nick. You I do not count among that few. You have reached your position by examining the evidence. As have I. But even you must admin that there are those on the guilty side wh seem to be stuck in the same groove for ever. You know those who just will not examine the evidence but would contradict everything just so they can prove their senario to be the right one. Sadly I find that position to be more amongst the "guilty party" than I do the innocence party?
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Lots of reasons.
The dog may have been running around the house & would be hard to kill. It was found cowering under Nevilles bed.
The dog would not effect his inheritance.
He had nothing personal against the dog. It was not making him work 14 hours a day on the farm. It was not a 'nutter' or 'insane' religious woman.
Jeremys aim was to kill the adults. The dog was not an issue.
Whatever the dog saw it cannot speak.
Maybe he really had a soft spot for the dog. But would never let it stay in his cottage 'messing up his stero equipment'
Well the fact that one of the first things he did was to have that dog put down scotches all those theories. First you say that the dog was quiet because he knew Jeremy. Then you have him running around barking. You need to get your story straight I think? ::)
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Hi Nickos, do you or have you ever had teenage children? Anyone who has will be familiar with 3am phone calls I would think. ;)
Hi maggie,
I have three children, 24 (son) 18 (son) & 16 (daughter).
No 3am phone calls as yet, either way, but which way do you mean. Them calling me or me calling them.
I certainly would not call my 24 year old son over to a situation that would bring him into danger at any time of the day never mind in the dark and at 3am.
I would deal directly with my daughter and if she was emotionally disturbed and holding a loaded gun
(both of which are not thankfully I have not had to deal with) I would attempt to disarm her, physically if needs be, not only to protect her from herself, but also to protect any other loved ones in the house.
I have an air rifle and know basic gun rules - one fundamental rule is never point even an unloaded gun at anyone - even in jest.
Nevill would have done anything to disarm sheila if he had been able to - even injured - she was after all alleged to have gone crazy and had a gun!!
Who would go and make a phone call, never mind two, in this situation - leaving her alone with a loaded gun - unbelievable imo
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Yippee,Nickos,,something new is being presented to CCRC next month.
Hi Looky, okay and you can't say - okay been here before!
When can the forum get to know what (no doubt in my mind) will be another piece of straw clutched at!
Its not a photo of Sheila on the bed is it!! ;D
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Was Sheila experienced enough with guns to re load quickly. Twice ? Where were the other cartridges ? Where was Neville & June when this was being done ?
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Hi Looky, okay and you can't say - okay been here before!
When can the forum get to know what (no doubt in my mind) will be another piece of straw clutched at!
Its not a photo of Sheila on the bed is it!! ;D
Not sure what it is,Nickos,,other than a hunch it's about one of the " five " silencers,possibly. Also that Sheila herself was not shot with the silencer attached. As I said,,I don't really know except that I'd imagine that there's emphasis on there not being a silencer in situ. We'll have to wait and see.
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Not so Nick. You and I do not count among that few. You have reached your position by examining the evidence. As have I. But even you must admit that there are those on the guilty side who seem to be stuck in the same groove for ever. You know those who just will not examine the evidence but would contradict everything just so they can prove their scenario to be the right one. Sadly I find that position to be more amongst the "guilty party" than I do the innocence party?
I will admit that there are those on both sides stuck in the same groove
Adam may have, and I'm sure has, reached his thoughts based on weighing up both sides.
It's always interesting when having given ones point of view (as I have over a few years now), that a new poster questions and challenges one line of thought, to that which appears to tally with my line of thought.
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I will admit that there are those on both sides stuck in the same groove
Adam may have, and I'm sure has, reached his thoughts based on weighing up both sides.
It's always interesting when having given ones point of view (as I have over a few years now), that a new poster questions and challenges one line of thought, to that which appears to tally with my line of thought.
Nickos,,I think ALL our thoughts tallied first off until some of us began to realise that all wasn't well,,then we set off questioning Jeremys' insistance that he was innocent. It's what you believe,,or choose to in this case,,though it shouldn't be that way,as he either did,or he didn't,,and even that conclusion isn't right either if it was in a court of law.
Whichever way it's looked at,,it was an unfair trial in anyones books.
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Hello Nickos you may have failed to notice I am back this was necessary as I saw you filling my shoes very quickly leaving :-* for HMEssex. But I still love youxxx
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Not sure what it is,Nickos,,other than a hunch it's about one of the " five " silencers,possibly. Also that Sheila herself was not shot with the silencer attached. As I said,,I don't really know except that I'd imagine that there's emphasis on there not being a silencer in situ. We'll have to wait and see.
These silencers are breeding ;D
However, this brings to mind the scenario (I believe supported by some) where the first shot to Sheilas throat was with a silencer on, and the second without - confusing isn't it ;)
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So Adam. What do you think about the police records of one man and one woman? One dead female, "one dead male on entry". "Three more dead upstairs." "One murder and one suicide" etc? Do you think they made three mistakes?
Well, yes.
As said someone who looked through the window said 'one female in the kitchen' (Neville).
Upon entering it was reported there was one male in the kitchen (Neville).
A written report from someone not at the scene says 'one female & one male in the kitchen'. Jeremy jumped on this several years later.
The thought that Sheila was in the kitchen, still alive. Then got up, walked upstairs without being seen, then shot herself without being heard is darkly comical. Or perhaps she was seen & heard & everyone is lying to frame Jeremy ?
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Hello Nickos you may have failed to notice I am back this was necessary as I saw you filling my shoes very quickly leaving :-* for HMEssex. But I still love youxxx
Hi McG, I felt let down when you just reappeared without telling me :'(
Its all those avatars displayed by the girls - your all gorgeous - how fickle am I ;D :-* xx
Where's your thistle gone!
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Nickos I reappeared for another as my heart is lost to him now but still have room for you too :-* :-* :-* I will share you,
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My dear Nickos my thistle went up in smoke along with my 8200 posts. Will have a Yorkshire Rose now when Roch will do it for me :-* :-* :-* Maybe put my picture up but that would mean you would be up in Scotland before your planned holiday ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam
which member of EP have you spoken to that repeated the story that Jeremy hated Crispy. Jeremy was in no position to look after Crispy the dog would have been left home alone whilst Jeremy was busy running the farm. Crispy was not a working dog like Bruce who was rehomed but rather old and bad tempered and really had reached the end of his life and it would have been cruel for Jeremy to have taken him. No other family members would take him thought maybe Ann would have liked him as a pet but sadly no (not Jeremy Crispy).
As I said. Read Wilke's book.
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Sorry Adam missed that post. My apologies.
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This was the first thread I created after joining this board.
I thought why not start from the beginning, when the first shots were fired by either Jeremy or Sheila ?
Foget about the apparent millions of pieces of paper on the case, or apparent new evidence which has been hidden, looking for a technical way to get the conviction overturned, which has so far failed. Let us work out how either of them went about their business in the house.
Not boasting but it was easy for me to create a Jeremy scenario which matched the crime scene & bullet allocation. The whole process may have only taken 5 - 10 minutes in the house. People commented on this laughing at my wetsuit claim. Which I do not mind. But disappointingly there has only been one other scenario, for Sheila.
I appreciate it is hard creating a believable scenario for Sheila. She had to re load twice & Neville needed at least 5 minutes to make two phone calls. Neville was also brutally beaten. However lots of people believe Jeremy is innocent. So surely there must be lots of believable scernarios.
So get typing !
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Adam the police forensically tested the wet suit.
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Adam the police forensically tested the wet suit.
Looking forward to you're scenario.
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Adam "Everything comes to him who waits" ;D
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No forensic evidence whatsoever linking Jeremy to the crime. Even the sniffer dog turned up its nose !
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Because unlike some I am still trying to keep an open mind - one question I have is there any proof that the police did not hear some gun shots whilst still outside (for hours) ? I guess we will not know that because the original file was stolen in a burglary . So at the moment we have no proof of times of deaths - especially as the official report said 8am.
So we don't know whether NB may have heard the gun shots panicked and called the police and his son - but did not actually realise that she had shot the twins and June . He may have just thought she was firing madly into the walls furniture etc . Could he have made the call - then rushed upstairs and then was faced with the scene and SB with the gun?
So then by the time the police got there they were all dead except Sheila?
If that is not correct then the house was completely still and no movement when the police got there because JB had killed them all some time before?
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Unless Jeremy is a raging psychopath who did kill his family,,then he'd have had visions of his dead family every waking day which would have eventually sent him insane. FACT.
Adam says the psychiatrists are more or less always right,,so I'll challenge him with the 27 professionals who found no sign of psychopathy/violence or anything else that would indicate that this man was/is an insane maniac/psychopath.
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Unless Jeremy is a raging psychopath who did kill his family,,then he'd have had visions of his dead family every waking day which would have eventually sent him insane. FACT.
Adam says the psychiatrists are more or less always right,,so I'll challenge him with the 27 professionals who found no sign of psychopathy/violence or anything else that would indicate that this man was/is an insane maniac/psychopath.
When did I say that ?
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When did I say that ?
You mentioned about a psychiatrist not being wrong,,somewhere. I think it was pertaining to Sheila.
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I said the defence consulted several psychiatrists to see if they felt Sheila was capable of going on such a murderous rampage. They all said 'no'.
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I said the defence consulted several psychiatrists to see if they felt Sheila was capable of going on such a murderous rampage. They all said 'no'.
Exactly,Adam. So what do they know then if Jeremy has been examined for psychopathy ? When some think that he has got such a mental problem ?
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I've worked in a mental hospital and you certainly don't need a psychiatrist to tell you what's wrong with the patients.
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Hello jansus I don't think any shots had actually been fired when Ralph was phoning Jeremy but Sheila had the rifle and was behaving in a theatening way. She ran upstairs and Ralph dropped the phone and followed her as he may have heard shots at this stage.
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Jeremy could not have killed Sheila. The evidence shows that she died much later than the other victims. A raid team member upon first seeing her described her as having blood running from the corners of her mouth. People who have been dead for hours do not bleed do they? She also was not in a state of rigor as the other victims were,otherwise EP would not have been able to manipulate her body. Also,two experts have stated that Sheila hadn't been dead for more than a couple of hours. Clearly then,SC died when JB was outside the farmhouse with EP.
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Sheila was admitted as an in-patient to St. Andrews Hospital, Northampton in August 1983 following an acute breakdownDuring the course of her treatment, she was observed to display a number of classic ‘textbook’ delusions associated with paranoid schizophrenia, Dr Ferguson detailed that she had been in state of acute psychosis and had been for about two weeksThese included religious delusions about being given the responsibility of ridding the world of evil, delusions about her children being ‘the devil’s children‘, and references to incestuous sex with her son's whom she described as 'the devil's children.
in 1985 when she was again in hospital they recorded violent incidents.
JB had no such medically recorded instances
Do you think all the "3" written on the odd notes found in her bedroom could refer to the trinity?
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It really does amaze me how guilters are so willing to believe EP's "official" version of events and yet completely dismiss the evidence contained in their very own police logs!
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There was a little old lady ( inpatient ) but boy,could she run ! She'd make a break for it a few times,over fields,and left us trailing behind.Sheila would have used all the power she could muster.Never be fooled by a persons' size,particularly a young woman ( slip of a girl ? ) doubtless she had the strength of an ox. Take it from one who knows these things.
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You can bet that the jury would have discussed how Sheila was able to kill two adults & two children, re load twice & allow Neville to make two phone calls.
If they could have not come up with a realistic scenario, they would have to return a guilty verdict.
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Hearsay. My scensrio matches the crime scene & bullet allocation. The interview transcripts are online for everyone to see. Jeremy did jump on police notes saying 'conversations in the house' & 'one man & one woman in the kitchen'.
You're pretty taken with you scenario aren't you? I think you might be in a majority of one there but it's keeping you amused.
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You can bet that the jury would have discussed how Sheila was able to kill two adults & two children, re load twice & allow Neville to make two phone calls.
If they could have not come up with a realistic scenario, they would have to return a guilty verdict.
Why would they discuss 2 phone calls? The second log (Neville's call to the police) came to light much later. You need to do more research!! You admitted that you're quite lazy in that respect, I guess that's why your scenario reads that way!! ;D ;D
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You can bet that the jury would have discussed how Sheila was able to kill two adults & two children, re load twice & allow Neville to make two phone calls.
If they could have not come up with a realistic scenario, they would have to return a guilty verdict.
If the jury had been given the full history about Sheila,,then things would have turned out differently. I can assure you of that.
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Adam,it actually appears that it was the 'blood in the silencer' evidence that swayed the jury. They seemed to have been confused about the evidence regarding this and put a question to the judge. They wanted to know if the blood was definately exclusive to Sheila and the judge WRONGLY directed them that it indeed was.
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If the jury had been given the full history about Sheila,,then things would have turned out differently. I can assure you of that.
Adam,,Sheilas' health had deteriorated rapidly in the weeks leading up to the murders. Made worse by a GP halving vital medication which was to keep her calm. That,coupled with cannabis,,the issues over the twins was the recipe for disaster.
Sheila had it in mind that she didn't want her medication controlling her,,instead,she.herself wanted to be in control of a situation which must have been festering in her mind that night.
Even Colin said " she'd finally done it " when he was told the news that day. Did he know something that nobody else did ? Had she told him that if she wasn't going to have the twins,nobody else was ??
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Was Sheila experienced enough with guns to re load quickly. Twice ? Where were the other cartridges ? Where was Neville & June when this was being done ?
Exactly the same questions can be posed if it were Jeremy Adam. In fact more so as he would have had Sheila to contend with as well.
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Nickos,,I think ALL our thoughts tallied first off until some of us began to realise that all wasn't well,,then we set off questioning Jeremys' insistance that he was innocent. It's what you believe,,or choose to in this case,,though it shouldn't be that way,as he either did,or he didn't,,and even that conclusion isn't right either if it was in a court of law.
Whichever way it's looked at,,it was an unfair trial in anyones books.
I quite understand why Nick holds the views he does. I also have my doubts about somethings to do with Jeremy. I have no affection towards him for a start. It is just that there are some big questions to be answered concerning the way the investigation and the trial were handled. Simply on a legal note I don't think he had a fair trial. That is all my view consists of really. I don't mind others having the oppsite views to me. It is just that some will not believe anything unless it fits into their pet senario.
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Why would they discuss 2 phone calls? The second log (Neville's call to the police) came to light much later. You need to do more research!! You admitted that you're quite lazy in that respect, I guess that's why your scenario reads that way!! ;D ;D
Oh, my mistake. At no time have the Essex police said they got a call from Neville. If they had then it would have been reported as soon as anyone suspected Jeremy. Unless the whole of EP are framing him.
Trying to prove Neville phoned the police must have been brought up much later. Along with the 'conversations inside the house' & 'two bodies downstairs' claims.
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Well, yes.
As said someone who looked through the window said 'one female in the kitchen' (Neville).
Upon entering it was reported there was one male in the kitchen (Neville).
A written report from someone not at the scene says 'one female & one male in the kitchen'. Jeremy jumped on this several years later.
The thought that Sheila was in the kitchen, still alive. Then got up, walked upstairs without being seen, then shot herself without being heard is darkly comical. Or perhaps she was seen & heard & everyone is lying to frame Jeremy ?
No. If you read the logs it clearly says "one dead male and one dead female upon entry". They were a running commentary at the time. That was not said later. and then when they went upstairs they reported 3 more dead.
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Adam,,Sheilas' health had deteriorated rapidly in the weeks leading up to the murders. Made worse by a GP halving vital medication which was to keep her calm. That,coupled with cannabis,,the issues over the twins was the recipe for disaster.
Sheila had it in mind that she didn't want her medication controlling her,,instead,she.herself wanted to be in control of a situation which must have been festering in her mind that night.
Even Colin said " she'd finally done it " when he was told the news that day. Did he know something that nobody else did ? Had she told him that if she wasn't going to have the twins,nobody else was ??
Did the defence call Colin to testify ?
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I said the defence consulted several psychiatrists to see if they felt Sheila was capable of going on such a murderous rampage. They all said 'no'.
Could you please put up a link or a copy of who and where they said that?
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It is in Roger Wilke's book. Chapter 26, page 182.
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How can anyone possibly state for certain that Sheila had to reload the rifle twice? Another weapon was found downstairs with red paint on the barrel,but oddly enough,this fact appears to have been covered up. And since ten of the bullets could not be matched to the Anschutz,there is always the possibility that two weapons were used in the murders. Red paint on the barrel of this second weapon and the existence of it were clearly covered up in order for the red paint (and all the other phony evidence) to be introduced into a silencer. A silencer that Sheila "couldn't possibly" have returned to the gun cupboard AFTER she had committed suicide. Clever plan...and the sad thing is that it worked!
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You can bet that the jury would have discussed how Sheila was able to kill two adults & two children, re load twice & allow Neville to make two phone calls.
If they could have not come up with a realistic scenario, they would have to return a guilty verdict.
Not so. They must first prove that Jeremy was at the scene. But instead of listening to the evidence they listened to the judge, who in my opinion was wrong.
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Oh, my mistake. At no time have the Essex police said they got a call from Neville. If they had then it would have been reported as soon as anyone suspected Jeremy. Unless the whole of EP are framing him.
Trying to prove Neville phoned the police must have been brought up much later. Along with the 'conversations inside the house' & 'two bodies downstairs' claims.
MUCH later!!
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It is in Roger Wilke's book. Chapter 26, page 182.
Oh. So you haven't examined or seen the logs yourself then? Please search the forum and look at the logs yourself with your own eyes. Then answer me.
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Not so. They must first prove that Jeremy was at the scene. But instead of listening to the evidence they listened to the judge, who in my opinion was wrong.
Jeremys first appeal was based on the judges summing up. It was rejected.
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Oh, my mistake. At no time have the Essex police said they got a call from Neville. If they had then it would have been reported as soon as anyone suspected Jeremy. Unless the whole of EP are framing him.
Trying to prove Neville phoned the police must have been brought up much later. Along with the 'conversations inside the house' & 'two bodies downstairs' claims.
You obviously haven't experienced police corruption? They all close ranks to cover one colleague believe me.
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Jeremys first appeal was based on the judges summing up. It was rejected.
They were wrong. Corrupt lot all in each other's pockets that lot.
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Adam...do dead bodies bleed? Or did EP lie in their statements as well as their logs?
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The rifle that WPC Jeapes spotted in the box room window didn't appear to be there when the raid team entered. Assuming this was the Anschutz,how did it then appear on SC's body whilst JB was sitting in a police car in the grounds of whf? Is he a magician?
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Oh. So you haven't examined or seen the logs yourself then? Please search the forum and look at the logs yourself with your own eyes. Then answer me.
Grahame I reread Dr. Hugh Ferguson's statements last night and there's nothing incriminating there against Sheila and her alleged propensity for violence. The chapter Adam cites does mention that the Defence canvassed several psychiatrists as to the possibility that Sheila might have exploded in a psychotic episode and you can bet your life that any such evidence helpful to them would have been used. I can well understand why these psychiatrists would request anonymity along with one who insisted Jeremy demonstrated psychopathic traits which is what put Rivlin and Lawson in such a pessimistic frame of mind just as the trial was about to begin.
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Grahame I reread Dr. Hugh Ferguson's statements last night and there's nothing incriminating there against Sheila and her alleged propensity for violence. The chapter Adam cites does mention that the Defence canvassed several psychiatrists as to the possibility that Sheila might have exploded in a psychotic episode and you can bet your life that any such evidence helpful to them would have been used. I can well understand why these psychiatrists would request anonymity along with one who insisted Jeremy demonstrated psychopathic traits which is what put Rivlin and Lawson in such a pessimistic frame of mind just as the trial was about to begin.
What about fearful Freddie,Steve ? Scared witless when Sheila threw an episode.Two GP's couldn't do anything with her,,now I ask you,is that normal.? Some psychiatrists know sweet fa.
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Adam must be having his lunch.Blimey,,he'd talk a glass eye to sleep. ::)
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Grahame I reread Dr. Hugh Ferguson's statements last night and there's nothing incriminating there against Sheila and her alleged propensity for violence. The chapter Adam cites does mention that the Defence canvassed several psychiatrists as to the possibility that Sheila might have exploded in a psychotic episode and you can bet your life that any such evidence helpful to them would have been used. I can well understand why these psychiatrists would request anonymity along with one who insisted Jeremy demonstrated psychopathic traits which is what put Rivlin and Lawson in such a pessimistic frame of mind just as the trial was about to begin.
Steve,you know that much much more is known about mental illness these days as opposed to back in the 80's. The fact is that Sheila DID have psychotic episodes prior to the murders.And she did try to attack the gas man at whf prior to the murders.He reported that he was so frightened that he locked himself in his car! Why would Sheila's fingerprints be discovered on Nevill's shotgun? Was this related to the gunshots that a witness reported hearing from the vincinity of whf at around midnight prior to the murders? None of us can be certain as to what occurred that fateful night,least of all pyschiatrists that had never met or assessed Sheila!
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Steve,you know that much much more is known about mental illness these days as opposed to back in the 80's. The fact is that Sheila DID have psychotic episodes prior to the murders.And she did try to attack the gas man at whf prior to the murders.He reported that he was so frightened that he locked himself in his car! Why would Sheila's fingerprints be discovered on Nevill's shotgun? Was this related to the gunshots that a witness reported hearing from the vincinity of whf at around midnight prior to the murders? None of us can be certain as to what occurred that fateful night,least of all pyschiatrists that had never met or assessed Sheila!
Hi Tyler - do yo know if we have the gas mans statement on the forum? I've never read it.
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Hi Tyler - do yo know if we have the gas mans statement on the forum? I've never read it.
Im not sure tbh Caroline. I just know that I read it somehwhere and cant for the life of me remember where. Sorry!
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Im not sure tbh Caroline. I just know that I read it somehwhere and cant for the life of me remember where. Sorry!
No problem, thanks anyway!! :), I'll ask Mike if he has a copy.
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What about fearful Freddie,Steve ? Scared witless when Sheila threw an episode.Two GP's couldn't do anything with her,,now I ask you,is that normal.? Some psychiatrists know sweet fa.
But she never struck him. Was Sheila getting her cannabis and cocaine from him(allegedly).It wouldn't surprise me..
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Steve,you know that much much more is known about mental illness these days as opposed to back in the 80's. The fact is that Sheila DID have psychotic episodes prior to the murders.And she did try to attack the gas man at whf prior to the murders.He reported that he was so frightened that he locked himself in his car! Why would Sheila's fingerprints be discovered on Nevill's shotgun? Was this related to the gunshots that a witness reported hearing from the vincinity of whf at around midnight prior to the murders? None of us can be certain as to what occurred that fateful night,least of all pyschiatrists that had never met or assessed Sheila!
This was the electricity man who also noticed a quiet family scene with the twins playing happily. Sheila was past the first phase of incarceration at St. Andrew's with the fantasies about the twins which Jeremy may well have got wind of in 1983, and discharged herself so her natural mother would not meet her in such a place. I don't know about the other weapon(I'm assuming it's the one Nevill kept under the bed),but more telling was Anthony Pargeter's evidence about noticing the new Anschutz in the gun cupboard ten days before the murders with the sights attached,and don't tell me Sheila unscrewed these along with everything else she was supposed to have done. The only explanation I have is that Jeremy removed them to prime this weapon for murder.
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This was the electricity man who also noticed a quiet family scene with the twins playing happily. Sheila was past the first phase of incarceration at St. Andrew's with the fantasies about the twins which Jeremy may well have got wind of in 1983, and discharged herself so her natural mother would not meet her in such a place. I don't know about the other weapon(I'm assuming it's the one Nevill kept under the bed),but more telling was Anthony Pargeter's evidence about noticing the new Anschutz in the gun cupboard ten days before the murders with the sights attached,and don't tell me Sheila unscrewed these along with everything else she was supposed to have done. The only explanation I have is that Jeremy removed them to prime this weapon for murder.
That's right Steve, if you can't answer the question or point being made, completely change it, answer a different one and change the emphasis!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I said the defence consulted several psychiatrists to see if they felt Sheila was capable of going on such a murderous rampage. They all said 'no'.
And I responded by telling you that Sheila hadn't been seen by a psychiatrist for 18 weeks PRIOR to her death by which time her meds were up the creek, the hopes she'd treasured had been dashed, and she was an entirely different person, psychologically from the one they'd based their assessment on. It seems that you've chosen to ignore these facts.
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And I responded by telling you that Sheila hadn't been seen by a psychiatrist for 18 weeks PRIOR to her death by which time her meds were up the creek, the hopes she'd treasured had been dashed, and she was an entirely different person, psychologically from the one they'd based their assessment on. It seems that you've chosen to ignore these facts.
She told Helen Grimster she got on better with Colin since the divorce. In addition she could see the twins whenever she wanted(disproving Jeremy's adoption lies). Her vacant stare and behaviour noticed by Caroline Heath a week before her death and noticed by others at Colin's party a week later and by the Tiptree shopkeeper on the Tuesday was symptomatic of a person still with Haloperidol in her system,not someone who was off medication altogether.
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She told Helen Grimster she got on better with Colin since the divorce. In addition she could see the twins whenever she wanted(disproving Jeremy's adoption lies). Her vacant stare and behaviour noticed by Caroline Heath a week before her death and noticed by others at Colin's party a week later and by the Tiptree shopkeeper on the Tuesday was symptomatic of a person still with Haloperidol in her system,not someone who was off medication altogether.
Does'nt that drug make you slower ?
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And I responded by telling you that Sheila hadn't been seen by a psychiatrist for 18 weeks PRIOR to her death by which time her meds were up the creek, the hopes she'd treasured had been dashed, and she was an entirely different person, psychologically from the one they'd based their assessment on. It seems that you've chosen to ignore these facts.
We have gone through this yesterday. The defence could also speak to all Sheilas friends, former social worker & relatives to find out more about her recent state. Jeremy would have known some of them.
18 months ? Perhaps she was better !
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Oh. So you haven't examined or seen the logs yourself then? Please search the forum and look at the logs yourself with your own eyes. Then answer me.
A respected book from an investigative researcher is good enough for me.
Have the defence denied this ?
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You obviously haven't experienced police corruption? They all close ranks to cover one colleague believe me.
Why frame Jeremy ? They already had the case sewn up as murder/suicide.
Was Jeremy a known gangster & criminal they were desparate to put inside, who had slipped through their fingers before ? No. The police believed his murder/suicide theory at first & Jeremy always made them coffee when they visited.
I do not believe a few relatives could pressurise the police into doing something they did not beleive.
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They were wrong. Corrupt lot all in each other's pockets that lot.
So the courts are also corupt now ?
I believe Jeremy had a fair trial. It lasted 19 days. All evidence available at the time was submitted. Jeremy had very expensive lawyers & chose to take the stand himself.
Mary Mugford, Julie's mother took the stand at the trial.
She said Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad & sending him to boarding school. Jeremy & June apparently never spoke. He also felt June loved the twins more. He even called Mary Mugford 'mummy' instead & offered Mary Junes car after the shootings.
Jeremy had told Mary that June was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons.
Always a shame when mothers & sons do not get on.
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Grahame I reread Dr. Hugh Ferguson's statements last night and there's nothing incriminating there against Sheila and her alleged propensity for violence. The chapter Adam cites does mention that the Defence canvassed several psychiatrists as to the possibility that Sheila might have exploded in a psychotic episode and you can bet your life that any such evidence helpful to them would have been used. I can well understand why these psychiatrists would request anonymity along with one who insisted Jeremy demonstrated psychopathic traits which is what put Rivlin and Lawson in such a pessimistic frame of mind just as the trial was about to begin.
If they'd have canvassed 100 psychiatrists, NONE could do more than base their assessment on the person who was seen 18 full weeks PRIOR to her death, at which time it wasn't known that her meds weren't balanced. What was known was that she had a positive outlook and hopes of a bright future. How could they possibly judge the person she became after all those hopes were dashed when they'd never seen her.
If you see your doctor tomorrow and he gives you a clean bill of health based on your visit, how can he possibly know how you'll be 18 weeks down the line if you life circumstances change?
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Grahame I reread Dr. Hugh Ferguson's statements last night and there's nothing incriminating there against Sheila and her alleged propensity for violence. The chapter Adam cites does mention that the Defence canvassed several psychiatrists as to the possibility that Sheila might have exploded in a psychotic episode and you can bet your life that any such evidence helpful to them would have been used. I can well understand why these psychiatrists would request anonymity along with one who insisted Jeremy demonstrated psychopathic traits which is what put Rivlin and Lawson in such a pessimistic frame of mind just as the trial was about to begin.
Interesting. Thank you Steve.
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But she never struck him. Was Sheila getting her cannabis and cocaine from him(allegedly).It wouldn't surprise me..
;D That's funny. Getting my fix from the gasman. ;D
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So the courts are also corupt now ?
I believe Jeremy had a fair trial. It lasted 19 days. All evidence available at the time was submitted. Jeremy had very expensive lawyers & chose to take the stand himself.
no there not corrupt now they have always been corrupt.
ask the Birmingham 6.
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She told Helen Grimster she got on better with Colin since the divorce. In addition she could see the twins whenever she wanted(disproving Jeremy's adoption lies). Her vacant stare and behaviour noticed by Caroline Heath a week before her death and noticed by others at Colin's party a week later and by the Tiptree shopkeeper on the Tuesday was symptomatic of a person still with Haloperidol in her system,not someone who was off medication altogether.
This was around the same time that she ran screaming from the Monastery and attacked the utility man, was it? I'm not certain how you draw the conclusion that it's been suggested that she was off meds entirely.
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She told Helen Grimster she got on better with Colin since the divorce. In addition she could see the twins whenever she wanted(disproving Jeremy's adoption lies). Her vacant stare and behaviour noticed by Caroline Heath a week before her death and noticed by others at Colin's party a week later and by the Tiptree shopkeeper on the Tuesday was symptomatic of a person still with Haloperidol in her system,not someone who was off medication altogether.
But didn't he tell her on the way from London to WHF that there was no chance of then getting back together, but she thought there was still a chance that they could get back together? That could have finally tipped her over the edge. Especially if a certain conversation took place the evening before the murders concerning the fostering of her children? Perhaps Adam should preface his scenario with the possibility of those events?
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Does'nt that drug make you slower ?
The doctor halved the dose.
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Why frame Jeremy ? They already had the case sewn up as murder/suicide.
Was Jeremy a known gangster & criminal they were desparate to put inside, who had slipped through their fingers before ? No. The police believed his murder/suicide theory at first & Jeremy always made them coffee when they visited.
I do not believe a few relatives could pressurise the police into doing something they did not beleive.
The police actually had Jeremy under surveillance at the time concerning drugs going missing from WHF. So no he wasn't the messiah. He was a very naughty boy. ;D
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If they'd have canvassed 100 psychiatrists, NONE could do more than base their assessment on the person who was seen 18 full weeks PRIOR to her death, at which time it wasn't known that her meds weren't balanced. What was known was that she had a positive outlook and hopes of a bright future. How could they possibly judge the person she became after all those hopes were dashed when they'd never seen her.
If you see your doctor tomorrow and he gives you a clean bill of health based on your visit, how can he possibly know how you'll be 18 weeks down the line if you life circumstances change?
18 weeks is not such a long time:too soon to know the repercussions of the meeting with her birth mother or to speculate whether she had been rebuffed by her,too soon for her to change her opinion of the twins she was missing in Ann Eaton's letter,too soon to give up on life..
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So the courts are also corupt now ?
I believe Jeremy had a fair trial. It lasted 19 days. All evidence available at the time was submitted. Jeremy had very expensive lawyers & chose to take the stand himself.
Mary Mugford, Julie's mother took the stand at the trial.
She said Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad & sending him to boarding school. Jeremy & June apparently never spoke. He also felt June loved the twins more. He even called Mary Mugford 'mummy' instead & offered Mary Junes car after the shootings.
Jeremy had told Mary that June was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons.
Always a shame when mothers & sons do not get on.
Do people think Mary Mugford lied ?
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The police actually had Jeremy under surveillance at the time concerning drugs going missing from WHF. So no he wasn't the messiah. He was a very naughty boy. ;D
I did not know that.
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Do people think Mary Mugford lied ?
who is mary mugford.
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Julie' mother.
My post on this page shows what she said under oath at court.
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18 weeks is not such a long time:too soon to know the repercussions of the meeting with her birth mother or to speculate whether she had been rebuffed by her,too soon for her to change her opinion of the twins she was missing in Ann Eaton's letter,too soon to give up on life..
But Steve, it may have been too short a time for YOU to know, but you presumably haven't been in a place were Sheila was.
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nugnug also ask the Guildford 4 and the Cardiff 3 who were MOJ along with many many other cases. Police corruption. Adam Google these cases and see what the police were capable of.
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nugnug also ask the Guildford 4 and the Cardiff 3 who were MOJ along with many many other cases. Police corruption. Adam Google these cases and see what the police were capable of.
Cardiff 3 ? Never heard of them.
Do you think Mary Mugford lied ?
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So the courts are also corupt now ?
I believe Jeremy had a fair trial. It lasted 19 days. All evidence available at the time was submitted. Jeremy had very expensive lawyers & chose to take the stand himself.
Mary Mugford, Julie's mother took the stand at the trial.
She said Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad & sending him to boarding school. Jeremy & June apparently never spoke. He also felt June loved the twins more. He even called Mary Mugford 'mummy' instead & offered Mary Junes car after the shootings.
Jeremy had told Mary that June was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons.
Always a shame when mothers & sons do not get on.
Some of them are yes. Or you wouldn't get miscarriages of justice. For instance a certain man at the CCRC doesn't like Jeremy and has made his feelings no secret either. So with prejudice like that how can one get justice?
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Do people think Mary Mugford lied ?
You will be surprised how many parents will lie for their children.
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Do you think EP lied Adam?
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Do you think EP lied Adam?
Everyone lied, EP, the courts, appeal courts, relatives, Rimmington, Mugford, Mary Mugford, Barbara Wilson. Roger Wilkes.
Everyone.
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Everyone lied, EP, the courts, appeal courts, relatives, Rimmington, Mugford, Mary Mugford, Barbara Wilson. Roger Wilkes.
Everyone.
At present I have an open mind & lots of questions. Am ready to be persuaded one way or the other.
Seems now you're an expert since December 1st? And very easily and quickly persuaded?
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No so Nick. You I do not count among that few. You have reached your position by examining the evidence. As have I. But even you must admin that there are those on the guilty side wh seem to be stuck in the same groove for ever. You know those who just will not examine the evidence but would contradict everything just so they can prove their senario to be the right one. Sadly I find that position to be more amongst the "guilty party" than I do the innocence party?
As long as the nons have to restort to dressing Jeremy in a wtsuit and marigolds (which they do!) and to have Sheila literally a zombie just waiting her turn to be killed, I cannot take what they say seriously. To make it fit, they have to come up with quite outlandish scenarios.
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If everyone lied...including EP,then surely it stands to reason that Jeremy's conviction is not a safe one?
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Cardiff 3 ? Never heard of them.
Do you think Mary Mugford lied ?
Google them it only takes a few seconds
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As long as the nons have to restort to dressing Jeremy in a wtsuit and marigolds (which they do!) and to have Sheila literally a zombie just waiting her turn to be killed, I cannot take what they say seriously. To make it fit, they have to come up with quite outlandish scenarios.
And if it was Sheila they ask, "How could she be so animated and do all these things with all the family running helter and skelter." But if it was Jeremy, "everyone seems compliant and he suddenly becomes superman" If it was Sheila Ralph is a strong strapping farmer not easily overcome by a 3 foot daughter. But if Jeremy suddenly he becomes a frail weak old man being beaten to death by an 8 foot maniac of a son. ::)
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Adam it may do you good to have heard of the Cardiff 3. 23 years to get justice for a crime they did not commit. Sometimes it can change the way you think if you knew what had gone on with so many MOJ and police corruption. Goggle it.
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Everyone lied, EP, the courts, appeal courts, relatives, Rimmington, Mugford, Mary Mugford, Barbara Wilson. Roger Wilkes.
Everyone.
Their testimonies aren´t worth anything - they weren´t there when the murders were committed. Basically Julie´s testimony and the silencer "evidence" was what the jury convicted Jeremy on. Julie had a lot to gain by a guilty verdict, both immunity from prosecution of her numerous crimes and MONEY. The silencer was brought forward by relatives who had a lot to gain financially by a guilty verdict, a silencer which the police DID NOT FIND when they looked in the gun cupboard...
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Adam I knew I would win you round in the end now you are making sense. Don't think RW lied maybe just had wrong information given to him. You are now admitting Jeremy's conviction was unsafe.
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Their testimonies aren´t worth anything - they weren´t there when the murders were committed. Basically Julie´s testimony and the silencer "evidence" was what the jury convicted Jeremy on. Julie had a lot to gain by a guilty verdict, both immunity from prosecution of her numerous crimes and MONEY. The silencer was brought forward by relatives who had a lot to gain financially by a guilty verdict, a silencer which the police DID NOT FIND when they looked in the gun cupboard...
if jeremy hadent of been convicted she would probably skint and in prison.
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if jeremy hadent of been convicted she would probably skint and in prison.
It is obvious she made a deal with EP. She had 32 sessions with them (for which she was paid, BTW - few people take money for their time spent with police, Julie did.)
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nugnug Julie would not have been allowed to teach as she would have had a criminal record. I often wonder if she ever gives a thought to poor Jeremy being stuck in prison for so long for a crime he did not commit and she knows this.
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If everyone lied...including EP,then surely it stands to reason that Jeremy's conviction is not a safe one?
In actual fact Mugford did not own up to the fact that she had made a deal with the NOTW before court. So the court was not aware of that fact and neither were the jury. That is utter deception on her part. But the very next week after the conviction of Jeremy the article appeared in the NOTW plus her seedy poses for the camera. When asked when she made the deal she replied that she didn't know. What a number one filthy liar. And we are asked to believe her testimony? Whoever believes that liar is a gullible fool.
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Was it mentioned during Julie Mugford´s testimony at the trial that she had known about Jeremy´s plans to kill his family for a year - or was that question avoided?
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but for some unplianed reason she choose not to share this information with the intended victims.
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but for some unplianed reason she choose not to share this information with the intended victims.
How come we have never heard the relatives of the Bamber family complain about this or mention it. I would be livid if she had known and chose NOT to warn the Bambers - I would want her prosecuted along with Bamber - isn´t that a natural reaction to Julie being in the know about this horrible thing and doing nothing? How come the family has never talked about this?
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Adam I knew I would win you round in the end now you are making sense. Don't think RW lied maybe just had wrong information given to him. You are now admitting Jeremy's conviction was unsafe.
Well Jeremy has been campaigning for 28 years. Trying to find a missed word or statement, procedural mistake, basically anything to get his conviction classed as unsafe. Helped by expensive lawyers, he has so far failed.
But you never know this new 'bombshell' evidence may change things.
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If everyone lied...including EP,then surely it stands to reason that Jeremy's conviction is not a safe one?
Correct. Free Jeremy. The EP & all the witnesses in court lied. The judge, appeal courts and CCRC are also wrong.
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And if it was Sheila they ask, "How could she be so animated and do all these things with all the family running helter and skelter." But if it was Jeremy, "everyone seems compliant and he suddenly becomes superman" If it was Sheila Ralph is a strong strapping farmer not easily overcome by a 3 foot daughter. But if Jeremy suddenly he becomes a frail weak old man being beaten to death by an 8 foot maniac of a son. ::)
My scenario on page 20 matches the crime scene, evidence & bullet allocation.
You don't need to be superman to shoot June & the twins in bed. Or beat up Neville who had been shot 4 times upstairs.
What are marigolds ?
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My scenario on page 20 matches the crime scene, evidence & bullet allocation.
You don't need to be superman to shoot June & the twins in bed. Or beat up Neville who had been shot 4 times upstairs.
What are marigolds ?
Rubber gloves. Sometimes it is claimed that not only did Jeremy wear a wetsuit, but also rubber gloves. What a sight he must have been!
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Adam I knew I would win you round in the end now you are making sense. Don't think RW lied maybe just had wrong information given to him. You are now admitting Jeremy's conviction was unsafe.
Yes, the people he interviewed must have all lied to him. Except Jeremy who was also interviewed.
Do you think Mary Mugford lied under oath ?
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How come we have never heard the relatives of the Bamber family complain about this or mention it. I would be livid if she had known and chose NOT to warn the Bambers - I would want her prosecuted along with Bamber - isn´t that a natural reaction to Julie being in the know about this horrible thing and doing nothing? How come the family has never talked about this?
Some additional thoughts on this. What a strange situation the relatives are in. On one hand they lost their family members in a brutal way, on the other hand they benefitted majorly from it economically, so it must have been a mixed feeling of gladness of getting the inheritance and sorrow over losing family. :-\
Maybe that is why they didn´t demand to hold Julie accountable, with Jeremy out of the way, they were content enough?
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Yes, the people he interviewed must have all lied to him. Except Jeremy who was also interviewed.
Do you think Mary Mugford lied under oath ?
Blood's thicker than water,Adam. It certainly applied to this case,,and if Jeremy had been coloured as well,then he could have sued for discrimination.
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Rubber gloves. Sometimes it is claimed that not only did Jeremy wear a wetsuit, but also rubber gloves. What a sight he must have been!
There was a hacksaw found outside the bathroom window. The marks on the bathroom window matched the hacksaw.
Jeremy may have worn gloves & dumped them afterwards. However he did not have to wear gloves. If his fingerprints were all over the house, so what ? It's his family house.
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Yes, the people he interviewed must have all lied to him. Except Jeremy who was also interviewed.
Do you think Mary Mugford lied under oath ?
I will answer. Not neccessarily. Maybe she told the truth - probably; but none of what she says makes Jeremy a murderer, does it? Just a bit of smearing of his charachter, she was not an eye witness or anything, just the mother of his dodgy ex-girlfriend.
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Yes, the people he interviewed must have all lied to him. Except Jeremy who was also interviewed.
Do you think Mary Mugford lied under oath ?
Lies/truth? Truth/lies? It often comes down to just ones own experience. Is a subtle untruth a lie? Standing in the witness box, is one allowed to tell the undiluted truth or is one guided to the answer that counsel is seeking? Remember too that history is written by the victors but there's usually another story that is equally true.
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I will answer. Not neccessarily. Maybe she told the truth - probably; but none of what she says makes Jeremy a murderer, does it? Just a bit of smearing of his charachter, she was not an eye witness or anything, just the mother of his dodgy ex-girlfriend.
She speaks quite foundly of Jeremy. Saying Jeremy called her mummy & he offered her a car. However Jeremy & June had no relationship with June planning to amend her will.
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There was a hacksaw found outside the bathroom window. The marks on the bathroom window matched the hacksaw.
Jeremy may have worn gloves & dumped them afterwards. However he did not have to wear gloves. If his fingerprints were all over the house, so what ? It's his family house.
The hacksaw was never examined for fingerprints that I know of. It was found weeks later. We'd soon have known if it had been proven that Jeremy used it to gain entry.
How about the blood on the sill ? It couldn't have been important because AE cleaned it off !
There was blood on a cobweb,of all things,but that wasn't tested either.
Strange how the ones who kept " finding " things,were the ones who stood to gain a lot of money,etc,,wasn't it ?
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yes very strange that.
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She speaks quite foundly of Jeremy. Saying Jeremy called her mummy & he offered her a car. However Jeremy & June had no relationship with June planning to amend her will.
Who on earth told you that June intended to amend her will. I think you must have been reading Steve's posts.
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The hacksaw was never examined for fingerprints that I know of. It was found weeks later. We'd soon have known if it had been proven that Jeremy used it to gain entry.
How about the blood on the sill ? It couldn't have been important because AE cleaned it off !
There was blood on a cobweb,of all things,but that wasn't tested either.
Strange how the ones who kept " finding " things,were the ones who stood to gain a lot of money,etc,,wasn't it ?
Thought the police found the hacksaw.
To be honest Jeremy said in the interview transcripts that he could get into WHF quite easily through windows. I suspect the hacksaw was used to make sure Jeremy could gain entry when needed.
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Who on earth told you that June intended to amend her will. I think you must have been reading Steve's posts.
Mary Mugford said under oath in court that Jeremy told her this.
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Also,Adam,,a sniffer dog was doing its sniffing on Jeremy.There was no sign of gun residue,blood,cadavers,drugs or anything else that those dogs are trained to sniff out. If Jeremy was supposed to have committed the murders at midnight,or thereabouts,the dog would have detected the odour of deceased people at the time they were all outside the farmhouse.
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Alias don't forget the rubber gloves were marigold not sure of the colour maybe lemon or indeed pink but the empty package was found in a nearby field. According to steve uk one glove came off during the fight with Ralph so Jeremy told Julie and I think he burnt that one in the Aga so would have gone home wearing one glove ;D ;D ;D hope you managed to stay awake during my little story ;D ;D ;D
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Mary Mugford said under oath in court that Jeremy told her this.
So perhaps it was one of those responses she was led to and certainly had no foundation in fact. If Jeremy had been planning a murder around it for a year, she'd had the same amount of time to do it she'd had.
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Adam her daughter Julie said so much under oath in between the tears. Have you ever thought that Julie would have filled her poor Mothers head with untruths and Mothers always believe their own children.
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Also,Adam,,a sniffer dog was doing its sniffing on Jeremy.There was no sign of gun residue,blood,cadavers,drugs or anything else that those dogs are trained to sniff out. If Jeremy was supposed to have committed the murders at midnight,or thereabouts,the dog would have detected the odour of deceased people at the time they were all outside the farmhouse.
I did not know the Essex police & raid squad brought dogs. Were any of them called Lassie ? She was good at solving crimes.
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Essex Police are still with holding 175 photographs along with 340,000 pages of documents. During August 1985 The Essex coroner was provided with evidence sufficient for him to allow the release of the bodies for burial and cremation. The police had informed him that the investigation was ongoing but on the basis of four murders and a suicide. The documents and evidence to substantiate this were lost.
Many of the documents from the 1988 Police enquiry (Dickinson) are under PII - this includes Julie Mugford's interviews and those of her mother Mary Mugford. We suspect that in exchange for Mugford's testimony she was given immunity from prosecution. There are many documents which suggest this. We also suspect that many police officers were given immunity for telling the whole truth about what happened in the house and these documents have never been disclosed.
Many of the documents from the 1991 Police Complaints authority investigation carried out by the City of London Police are also under Public Interest Immunity
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Adam her daughter Julie said so much under oath in between the tears. Have you ever thought that Julie would have filled her poor Mothers head with untruths and Mothers always believe their own children.
Ok. So that is Julie & Mary Mugford lying on oath.
Lifes been a real bitch for Jeremy.
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Adam naughty naughty I did not actually say anyone lied under oath that is how you are reading it. How would I know who is telling the truth and indeed how would you know. I do think life has been a real bitch for Jeremy but you know the old saying "Every dog has his day"
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Mugford said under oath that she did not want to go to the funerals. But Jeremy persuaded her.
In hindsight it would have been better she had not gone. She had guilt written all over her face, knowing what she knew. In complete contrast to Jeremy.
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The oath is changing tack. It'll read," I swear to tell the truth,the whole truth,and nothing like the truth. " S'elp me Bob.
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Adam stop being sarcastic it does not suit you. Trained police dogs which EP had are very intelligent dogs and not to be made fun of they do a wonderful job in finding drugs land mines in war zones and are superior in many ways to us mere mortals who are useless at sniffing out drugs and gunshot residue.
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Adam funny how Julie volunteered to identify the bodies of the little twins wonder if she felt guilty doing that I guess not,
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Adam stop being sarcastic it does not suit you. Trained police dogs which EP had are very intelligent dogs and not to be made fun of they do a wonderful job in finding drugs land mines in war zones and are superior in many ways to us mere mortals who are useless at sniffing out drugs and gunshot residue.
That hurts.
Were the dogs sniffing Jeremy outside WHF ? He was not a suspect then. Thought he was kept away from danger in a car with a policeman.
If not it had been several hours since the murders. Plenty of time to shower between the 3am & 3.26am calls.
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Alias don't forget the rubber gloves were marigold not sure of the colour maybe lemon or indeed pink but the empty package was found in a nearby field. According to steve uk one glove came off during the fight with Ralph so Jeremy told Julie and I think he burnt that one in the Aga so would have gone home wearing one glove ;D ;D ;D hope you managed to stay awake during my little story ;D ;D ;D
LOL I stayed awake.
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Adam google this subject and you will be made aware that gunshot residue does not wash off the body by having a shower quite an interesting subject and I am sure you are always wanting to learn. No he was not a suspect but the dog would have automatically been drawn to him if he had gunshot residue on his person.
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Adam funny how Julie volunteered to identify the bodies of the little twins wonder if she felt guilty doing that I guess not,
Thought it was very nice of her. Not being a relative she did not have to do it.
Feeling guilty, you mean about what she knew ?
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Adam google this subject and you will be made aware that gunshot residue does not wash off the body by having a shower quite an interesting subject and I am sure you are always wanting to learn. No he was not a suspect but the dog would have automatically been drawn to him if he had gunshot residue on his person.
Why was no gun shot residue on Sheila then ? Even if she had showered afterwards there should be gun shot residue.
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Adam google this subject and you will be made aware that gunshot residue does not wash off the body by having a shower quite an interesting subject and I am sure you are always wanting to learn.
Sniffer dogs are amazing. I never smoke Cannabis, because I don´t like it, but I know people who do. We had been on tour in a tour van for a week, and people in it smoked Cannabis. We went home, and two weeks later we went on holiday. I had washed all my clothes, but not my bag, and a sniffer dog reacted to me as if I had Cannabis. We had to strip down, but had nothing of course. I asked the lady who searched me if the sniffer dog could really smell Cannabis-smoke from two weeks ago - she said that it could.
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Alias I have never smoked cannabis. Some guy once gave me a roll up and said it contained cannabis and would blow me away still waiting for the effect years on think it was just some dried tea leaves he put in. I digress sniffer dogs are so amazing and intelligent and do a wonderful job and are loved and respected by their handlers.
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Why was no gun shot residue on Sheila then ? Even if she had showered afterwards there should be gun shot residue.
?
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Adam I am sure Sheila did have gunshot residue on her hands and clothes but this information may not have been made public bet it will be in the new book coming out.
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Adam feeling guilty looking at the two little boys knowing she could have prevented it had she known about his plans for about a year previous.
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Adam I am sure Sheila did have gunshot residue on her hands and clothes but this information may not have been made public bet it will be in the new book coming out.
Sheila's body had no traces of gun residue. This is evidence reported in court.
People have claimed this is because she washed herself afterwards. But now I have been told this cannot be the case.
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Sheila's body had no traces of gun residue. This is evidence reported in court.
People have claimed this is because she washed herself afterwards. But now I have been told this cannot be the case.
but they lied about the blood on her feet - so how do you know they did not lie about this as well?
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Adam it was reported in Court her feet were clean and now we find they were not clean. Keep your open mind Adam as I think you will have so many of these questions answered in the near future.
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That's it, the pathologist & police lied about the gun residue. Sheila was covered in gun residue. But the police were jealous of Jeremys good looks.
To be honest the feet are pretty clean apart from a few speks I could barely see. It is not surprising there were apparently a few speks as she was found in another room.
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Adam it was reported in Court her feet were clean and now we find they were not clean. Keep your open mind Adam as I think you will have so many of these questions answered in the near future.
Depends what you call clean. They looked clean to me, apart from a few speks I could barely see. I would expect more after the kitchen fight.
These speks show Sheila did not shower afterwards.
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Adam feeling guilty looking at the two little boys knowing she could have prevented it had she known about his plans for about a year previous.
Instead she went out and posed suggestively. I wonder if she was thinking about those poor little boys or if all she had on her mind was money.
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Instead she went out and posed suggestively. I wonder if she was thinking about those poor little boys or if all she had on her mind was money.
Didn't Jeremy have a newspaper deal as well ? I seem to remember him moaning about the offer. Jeremy would have enjoyed posing in his suits.
Didn't Jeremy offer topless photos of Sheila to a newspaper hack ?
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Didn't Jeremy have a newspaper deal as well ? I seem to remember him moaning about the offer. Jeremy would have enjoyed posing in his suits.
I believe he did. Greedy bunch of people, if you ask me. Wonder if he would have posed half naked.
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I believe he did. Greedy bunch of people, if you ask me. Wonder if he would have posed half naked.
Jeremy would have enjoyed being a celebrity.
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Sheila's body had no traces of gun residue. This is evidence reported in court.
People have claimed this is because she washed herself afterwards. But now I have been told this cannot be the case.
Adam,it was also said in court that Sheila was clean. That was another lie,,along with the broken nails,including a chunk of nail from her big toe,,the court said the nails were manicured.
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The Pathologist also lied.
Dear oh dear.
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The Pathologist also lied.
Dear oh dear.
It's not unknown for pathologists to lie,Adam. Take the Ian Tomlinson case for instance.
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There was a hacksaw found outside the bathroom window. The marks on the bathroom window matched the hacksaw.
Jeremy may have worn gloves & dumped them afterwards. However he did not have to wear gloves. If his fingerprints were all over the house, so what ? It's his family house.
There was no hacksaw and no marks on the window.
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I did not know the Essex police & raid squad brought dogs. Were any of them called Lassie ? She was good at solving crimes.
It was not her watch I'm afraid. ;D
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There was a hacksaw found outside the bathroom window. The marks on the bathroom window matched the hacksaw.
Jeremy may have worn gloves & dumped them afterwards. However he did not have to wear gloves. If his fingerprints were all over the house, so what ? It's his family house.
So you're covering both angles there then? Make up your mind. Either he was wearing marigolds or he wasn't. But you are of course correct. He didn't have to wear gloves. Yet another silly suggestion scotched.
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Never mind the story of Lassie - what about the Pied Piper? ;)
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She speaks quite foundly of Jeremy. Saying Jeremy called her mummy & he offered her a car. However Jeremy & June had no relationship with June planning to amend her will.
Where did you read that? Oh! don't tell me. Don't tell me....Wilkes... Right?
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.
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Ok. So that is Julie & Mary Mugford lying on oath.
Lifes been a real bitch for Jeremy.
Well in actual fact as I have said before, Julie Mugford deceived the court concerning the deal she made with the NOTW. So yes I would put money on the fact that they both lied on oath. The mother supporting the daughter. 25 grand is a big incentive to lie. ;)
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Mugford saidunder oath that she did not want to go to the funerals. But Jeremy persuaded her.
In hindsight it would have been better she had not gone. She had guilt written all over her face, knowing what she knew. In complete contrast to Jeremy.
Mugford said. Mugford said. I'm afraid a lot of gullible people banked on what Mugford said.
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Jeremy would have enjoyed being a celebrity.
You don´t know that, you are guessing.
P.S. are you projecting your own dreams onto Jeremy?
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That hurts.
Were the dogs sniffing Jeremy outside WHF ? He was not a suspect then. Thought he was kept away from danger in a car with a policeman.
If not it had been several hours since the murders. Plenty of time to shower between the 3am & 3.26am calls.
Changing tack again are we? I thought he was up front directing the raid team according to your senario. ::)
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Didn't Jeremy have a newspaper deal as well ? I seem to remember him moaning about the offer. Jeremy would have enjoyed posing in his suits.
Didn't Jeremy offer topless photos of Sheila to a newspaper hack ?
no he dident have a newsaper deal as has been explained over and over again.
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You don´t know that, you are guessing.
I think this guy is winding you all up!! ;D
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Why was no gun shot residue on Sheila then ? Even if she had showered afterwards there should be gun shot residue.
There was.
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I think this guy is winding you all up!! ;D
Yes, let him!
Wasn´t there a newspaper deal for Jeremy, or is that a myth too?
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Sheila's body had no traces of gun residue. This is evidence reported in court.
People have claimed this is because she washed herself afterwards. But now I have been told this cannot be the case.
Yes it did. If she had no residue on her at all then she could not have been shot.
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That's it, the pathologist & police lied about the gun residue. Sheila was covered in gun residue. But the police were jealous of Jeremys good looks.
To be honest the feet are pretty clean apart from a few speks I could barely see. It is not surprising there were apparently a few speks as she was found in another room.
The real question about the photo of her foot is that it has in fact been witheld all this time. Why? To me her feet look as if they had been walking around the house.
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A girl from an affluent area of Idaho shot dead her parents in 2003 because they disapproved of their daughters' lifestyle. Underage sex which is classed as statutory rape,drug-taking and disproval of a boyfriend. The daughter was 16 at the time of the shootings.Bloodied footprints and blood spatter got her convicted !
Latterly with Sheila,,she had some questionable " friends " which June and Neville were showing concern about,,and the company she was keeping in general.Blood underneath Sheilas' foot/feet,and spatter on the carpet.
Both the same patterns.
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Never mind the story of Lassie - what about the Pied Piper? ;)
Yes indeed. All the rats followed him.
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.
Looks like Mick Jagger.
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Kooks like Mick Jagger.
Can Mike Jagger Kook? Doesn't look like he eats much ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I think this guy is winding you all up!! ;D
So much for him being persuaded either way. ;D
At present I have an open mind & lots of questions. Am ready to be persuaded one way or the other.
That was on December the 1st. What's today? The 7th. It took only 7 days research to be completely persuaded that Jeremy is guilty.
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So much for him being persuaded either way. ;D That was on December the 1st. What's today? The 7th. It took only 7 days research to be completely persuaded that Jeremy is guilty.
He didn't come here for that!! ;)
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A girl from an affluent area of Idaho shot dead her parents in 2003 because they disapproved of their daughters' lifestyle. Underage sex which is classed as statutory rape,drug-taking and disproval of a boyfriend. The daughter was 16 at the time of the shootings.Bloodied footprints and blood spatter got her convicted !
Latterly with Sheila,,she had some questionable " friends " which June and Neville were showing concern about,,and the company she was keeping in general.Blood underneath Sheilas' foot/feet,and spatter on the carpet.
Both the same patterns.
She was no angel that's for sure. She certainly led her parents a merry dance.
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Can Mike Jagger Kook? Doesn't look like he eats much ;D ;D ;D ;D
Typo ;D
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Typo ;D
yeah, I know but it made me laugh!! ;D ;D ;D
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Yes, let him!
Wasn´t there a newspaper deal for Jeremy, or is that a myth too?
the only source for this is kelvin mcenzie.
so its almost certanly a myth.
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She was no angel that's for sure. She certainly led her parents a merry dance.
She did indeed,Grahame,then bit the hand that fed her so to speak. There is no doubt that Sheila carried out the killings,,her bloodied foot gave her away,as nobody else was able to walk.
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the only source for this is kelvin mcenzie.
so its almost certanly a myth.
Ti be fair, there would have been - he'd have been able to name his price if he got off.
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well its means she walked through blood.
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well its means she walked through blood.
It does indeed nugs.
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the only source for this is kelvin mcenzie.
so its almost certanly a myth.
He was mixed up with the police in the 80's and Campion can prove it. He was there at the "party" where the cops were "celebrating" the successful conviction of Jeremy Bamber. Kelvin Mackenzie was there as well.
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In a sick sort of way,,and in the words of Shakespeare,it was " Much Ado About Nothing ". And could/should have been solved instantly,,never to have reached court.
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He was mixed up with the police in the 80's and Campion can prove it. He was there at the "party" where the cops were "celebrating" the successful conviction of Jeremy Bamber. Kelvin Mackenzie was there as well.
well he was editter of the sun then and the police have always been thick as thieves with news internatonel
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Grahame, 'I can say that' most of Julie's WitStat (32-35 pages) was coaxed, coached, and written by DS Stan Brain Jones.
She didn't have a leg to Stan' on, he had her in an illegal 1/2Nelson, and furthermore, according to the Gospel of St Michael, she was on a promise to receive sexual favours during paid interview and Police accommodation.
No wonder she agreed not to be Charged for the fraudulent activities which EP somehow(poss from info of the Myste ry Madam Rimington) had her in a stranglehold.
Oh, and the icing on the cake, the upfront deposit from the APress Agency, subbed as it transpired, by that 'salubrious' former Sunday rag 'The Screws, of the World'. This transaction was apparently to get the Press off her back, obviating the distractional harassment outside the school where she was undergoing her teacher training.
As Miss Mandy Rice-Davies has recently opined:- "The Truth will Never Sleeps.Ever!!"
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Campion sexual favours rather face jail ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Campion sexual favours rather face jail ;D ;D ;D ;D
With a bag over your head ! Good morning Susan. ;D
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Morning Adam
kitchen fight indeed!!! Struggle I would say at that stage Sheila may have been wearing the socks which were shown in a photo near to her body. The only people who know exactly what went on were EP and they aint for telling it appears. If you have an open mind would hate to see what you would post if you thought Jeremy Guilty.
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Morning lookout or maybe a bag over his head. Think jail would be a nicer option ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Morning lookout or maybe a bag over his head. Think jail would be a nicer option ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes,,jail would have seemed the best option for me too. I'm not that fond of luxuries ;D ;D ;D ;D
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lookout ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam,it was also said in court that Sheila was clean. That was another lie,,along with the broken nails,including a chunk of nail from her big toe,,the court said the nails were manicured.
Who is saying it is a lie ? Jeremy ?
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It's not unknown for pathologists to lie,Adam. Take the Ian Tomlinson case for instance.
As I said. A respected pathplogist stood up in court and lied under oath.
Free Jeremy.
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Who is saying it is a lie ? Jeremy ?
The pathologist,Adam. Silly billy. :)
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There was no hacksaw and no marks on the window.
Yes there were. This was said at the court hearing. Jeremy did not deny this when on the witness stand.
Whether there was or not is neither here or there. Jeremys interview transcripts says he knew how to easily get into the house via windows. Or are the interview transcripts wrong ? Jeremy has never claimed they are.
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So you're covering both angles there then? Make up your mind. Either he was wearing marigolds or he wasn't. But you are of course correct. He didn't have to wear gloves. Yet another silly suggestion scotched.
My page 20 scenario says he wore gloves. I never mentioned marigolds. Although thinking again he did not have to wear gloves. As mentioned yesterday.
The main criticism of my page 20 scenario was the wetsuit & gloves. Not much criticism of what happened in WHF.
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Where did you read that? Oh! don't tell me. Don't tell me....Wilkes... Right?
Surely Wilkes is not making up what witnesses said in court ?
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Morning Adam
Jeremy volenteered the information that he accessed the house often by a window would he draw attention to this if he was Guilty I think not. You told me the wrong price for RW's book they are selling at £30 to £80 the one you are reading is written by Claire Powell and lookout said it will be moth eaten and that is why it only costs one pence.
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You don´t know that, you are guessing.
P.S. are you projecting your own dreams onto Jeremy?
I am indeed. I am sure he would have enjoyed the extra attention from the ladies at least.
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Changing tack again are we? I thought he was up front directing the raid team according to your senario. ::)
That is what I orignally said. Telling police Sheila is a 'nutter' & 'I don't get on with her at all'. Walking around the house & apparently seeing something inside.
But another poster told me Jeremy sat in the car most of the time in the background.
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Yes there were. This was said at the court hearing. Jeremy did not deny this when on the witness stand.
Whether there was or not is neither here or there. Jeremys interview transcripts says he how to easily get into the house via windows. Or are the interview transcripts wrong ? Jeremy has never claimed they are.
Doesn't mean to say that they appeared just on the night of the murders though.Not forgetting that the hacksaw had been lying on the ground for a long time prior to being found.
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A girl from an affluent area of Idaho shot dead her parents in 2003 because they disapproved of their daughters' lifestyle. Underage sex which is classed as statutory rape,drug-taking and disproval of a boyfriend. The daughter was 16 at the time of the shootings.Bloodied footprints and blood spatter got her convicted !
Latterly with Sheila,,she had some questionable " friends " which June and Neville were showing concern about,,and the company she was keeping in general.Blood underneath Sheilas' foot/feet,and spatter on the carpet.
Both the same patterns.
Has there ever been another WHF case. Where a woman has shot her parents, children & herself ?
Or just shot her children & parents & kept herself alive ?
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Morning Adam
Jeremy volenteered the information that he accessed the house often by a window would he draw attention to this if he was Guilty I think not. You told me the wrong price for RW's book they are selling at £30 to £80 the one you are reading is written by Claire Powell and lookout said it will be moth eaten and that is why it only costs one pence.
£30 for a 1994 book !
My book says Roger Wilkes on the cover.
Moth eaten ?
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Yes it did. If she had no residue on her at all then she could not have been shot.
Ok to be specific minimal traces. Certainly no where enough to show she had been charging around in her nightie firing off 26 bullets & re loading twice.
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He was mixed up with the police in the 80's and Campion can prove it. He was there at the "party" where the cops were "celebrating" the successful conviction of Jeremy Bamber. Kelvin Mackenzie was there as well.
So Kelvin Mckenzie is lying as well.
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So Kelvin Mckenzie is lying as well.
Quite a dab-hand at lying. Look at Hillsborough !
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Adam I can only believe what posters of very high standing tell me who am I to doubt them. I will wait for Paul Harrisons book it will be new in every sense of the word ;)
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Adam I can only believe what posters of very high standing tell me who am I to doubt them. I will wait for Paul Harrisons book it will be new in every sense of the word ;)
You can always read the mountain of evidence online.
Witness statements, interview transcripts, court appeal summaries (dozen of pages), articles ( dozens) wiki pedia, Youtube etc etc. I have. And did I mention have also read a book.
Going by one forum is narrow minded.
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You can always read the mountain of evidence online.
Witness statements, interview transcripts, court appeal summaries (dozen of pages), articles ( dozens) wiki pedia, Youtube etc etc. I have. And did I mention have also read a book.
Going by one forum is narrow minded.
Type R V Jeremy Bamber.
It is the 2002 appeal court summary. Written by judges I assume.
It has 522 points !
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Adam thanks for the advice I am off now to do some research on line as you suggested. Campion said RW's book is being offered for sale between £30 and £80 what would I get for a penny these days. Indeed the days of saying I need to spend a penny are gone and it would be I need to spend 50p ;D
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Adam not a good sign talking to yourself even I don't do that ;D ;D ;D ;D If people ignore you rise above it as I do but you seem to get alot of attention ;D
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Adam thanks for the advice I am off now to do some research on line as you suggested. Campion said RW's book is being offered for sale between £30 and £80 what would I get for a penny these days. Indeed the days of saying I need to spend a penny are gone and it would be I need to spend 50p ;D
Good. There is loads of information & opinions. Both for and against Jeremy.
Strange that I got the book so cheaply. I got it recently as well. Less than 6 months ago. It is in good condition considering it has ten library stamps on !
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Doesn't mean to say that they appeared just on the night of the murders though.Not forgetting that the hacksaw had been lying on the ground for a long time prior to being found.
I have no doubt that Jeremy would not use the hack saw on the night. Much too noisey. However he may have used it days or weeks beforehand. To ensure entry at a later date would be easy & quiet.
Jeremy said himself he knew how to get into the house through windows - opportunity ?
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Type R V Jeremy Bamber.
It is the 2002 appeal court summary. Written by judges I assume.
It has 522 points !
These judges need to move on..Those old fogies are stuck in a rut of past paperwork,copying what was already there in parrot fashion,so it's high time that things were revised and brought up to date,particularly in this case where so much more evidence is now available.
A case of this enormity would take more than 19 days today,as every possible avenue would be explored and the investigation would certainly be conducted differently.
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These judges need to move on..Those old fogies are stuck in a rut of past paperwork,copying what was already there in parrot fashion,so it's high time that things were revised and brought up to date,particularly in this case where so much more evidence is now available.
A case of this enormity would take more than 19 days today,as every possible avenue would be explored and the investigation would certainly be conducted differently.
They can only respond when Jeremy & his lawyers request. Which was in 2002.
They looked at the case in great detail - 522 points.
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Adam nobody has suggested Jeremy used the hackshaw in the way a hacksaw is meant to be used. Do you actually know what a hacksaw is not chain saw type implement. It was suggested he prised the window open with the help of a hacksaw. Bet you are not a DIY man. More Googling for you today ;D
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Adam nobody has suggested Jeremy used the hackshaw in the way a hacksaw is meant to be used. Do you actually know what a hacksaw is not chain saw type implement. It was suggested he prised the window open with the help of a hacksaw. Bet you are not a DIY man. More Googling for you today ;D
The marks on the bathroom window, matched the hacksaw. Said in court.
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Adam stop being on the defensive I did not say they did not match any marks. I said a hacksaw would not be noisy. You speak to Patti about marks on windows she is the expert. Catcha later off to Tesco.
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Adam stop being on the defensive I did not say they did not match any marks. I said a hacksaw would not be noisy. You speak to Patti about marks on windows she is the expert. Catcha later off to Tesco.
As I said earlier on this page. Jeremy would not use the hacksaw on the night.
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The marks on the bathroom window, matched the hacksaw. Said in court.
From previous years perhaps,,but not on the night of the murders. Besides,,Jeremy wasn't the only one who entered this way.
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Hi Adam :) Morning Susan/all
It does not matter that she said that and he said the other. What we/you have to establish is what forensic science has to offer.
1, There are no witnesses
2, There are no fibers or fingerprints that belong to Jeremy in any of the bedrooms.
3, The rifle was not wiped clean
4, There were no fingerprints belonging to Jeremy on the windows
5, The SOCO's did 3 extensive examinations of the downstairs windows and it was third examination that they noticed a catch had marks on it. On the 28th of October RWC took the catch from the window. On the 31st Of October Elliot and his team told the COA that he took the same catch. RWC/8 How is that possible?
6, The pushbike was examined and no evidence was recovered from it.
7, Wetsuits were examined and no forensic evidence was recovered.
8, Jeremy was convicted because the judge at trial told the jury that the blood in the silencer belonged to Sheila. New forensic science says there is not a match to Sheila inside the silencer and the COA excepted this.
9, The only evidence portrayed by those that think he is guilty is based on what it written in books, newspapers and other forms of media related news.
10, It does not matter that Jeremy was arrogant, selfish or disliked his family. One needs to place him at a crime scene.
11, The facts are that when someone takes their own life with a gun/rifle the shots are mainly under the chin....any pathologist would agree that this would be more likely.
12, I don't believe that everyone lied in order to convict Jeremy, discrepancies yes. However I am suspicious of one officer and one witness.
13, I find it incredible that two officers took paint samples from underneath the AGA placed a yellow sticker on it and did not notice the scratch marks at the side of the sticker.
14, I also find it dishonest to alter to statements to the point where an officer tells the witness not to mention it in court or it will cause problems.
15, I find inconceivable that one officer took a pair of black canvas shoes from a crime scene and told a witness not to say anything.
16, The hand swabs were rejected by the lab because they arrived with guns. The swabs were resubmitted, but there is no evidence to support the fact that new swabs had been taken, so this evidence alone is unsafe because of cross contamination.
17, I get a little grumpy when people say that the police were treating it as a murder/suicide because this is their excuse for not following procedures at crime scene correctly.
18, No matter how you look at it, Julie only came forward when her relationship with Bamber was over.
19, One officer attended the bank with two girls when he was off duty. Gross misconduct.
20, These are just a few facts....So is there any concrete evidence based on forensic science that placed Jeremy at the crime scene?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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LOVELY Patti, many, MANY thanks for succinctly pulling us back from the clutches of those who, despite their claims of openmindedness, clearly seem only to want to put across their own preconceived ideas based more on fiction than fact. xxx
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Well if that won't shut Adam up for five minutes,nothing will.Bravo,Patti. ;D
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Who is saying it is a lie ? Jeremy ?
Recent photos.
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LOVELY Patti, many, MANY thanks for succinctly pulling us back from the clutches of those who, despite their claims of openmindedness, clearly seem only to want to put across their own preconceived ideas based more on fiction than fact. xxx
Thanking you April... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well if that won't shut Adam up for five minutes,nothing will.Bravo,Patti. ;D
Thank you Lookout. I await the response ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ok to be specific minimal traces. Certainly no where enough to show she had been charging around in her nightie firing off 26 bullets & re loading twice.
Who is saying that? "charging around"? "re-loading twice"? Your words not mine.
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Thanking you April... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thank you Lookout. I await the response ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
His five minutes is up. ;D
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His five minutes is up. ;D
I'd like Adam to address each point I made if he can...lol ;D ;D ;D ;D
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So Kelvin Mckenzie is lying as well.
Of course he is. What was he doing at a police party celebrating the conviction of Bamber. He was hand in glove with them. Anyway he has fallen out with the police in recent years. Campion was there. And eye witness to these events. The words use I thionk were: Campion, "You know he didn't do do". Kelvin Mackenzie, "Of course we know thw little shit didn't do it. It was the drugs gang he was mixed up with". Now whether there was a drugs gang or not the words that ring in my ears are, "WEknow the little shit didn't do it". Who is "we"? Well him and the police of course. You mean to say you trust that little maggot Mackenzie???
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Quite a dab-hand at lying. Look at Hillsborough !
That was absolutely atrocious. He supported the police in their cover-up as well. The little snake.
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You can always read the mountain of evidence online.
Witness statements, interview transcripts, court appeal summaries (dozen of pages), articles ( dozens) wiki pedia, Youtube etc etc. I have. And did I mention have also read a book.
Going by one forum is narrow minded.
I have followed this case from the very beginning and have read the "mountain" of evidence. I still think he was stitched up. All I seem to come across again and again is deceit on the part of the prosecution and their so called witnesses and a corrupt Essex Police force who would rather support a cover-up than lose their police pensions.
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I have no doubt that Jeremy would not use the hack saw on the night. Much too noisey. However he may have used it days or weeks beforehand. To ensure entry at a later date would be easy & quiet.
Jeremy said himself he knew how to get into the house through windows - opportunity ?
So. Doesn't common sense tell you that the murderer would not confess such a thing? Even the simplest person would not say such a thing if they were guilty. Would you own up to such a thing if you were guilty of a crime? I trow not?
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I have followed this case from the very beginning and have read the "mountain" of evidence. I still think he was stitched up. All I seem to come across again and again is deceit on the part of the prosecution and their so called witnesses and a corrupt Essex Police force who would rather support a cover-up than lose their police pensions.
Yes,,and the lengths all these authorities will go to in order to " leave things as they are" without admitting defeat ! Treacherous lot.
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The marks on the bathroom window, matched the hacksaw. Said in court.
Just think logically for a moment Adam. Would the murderer planning on the perfect crime have left the tools of his trade at the scene of the murder? It is obvious even to the most brainless that the police were snatching at straws to back-up their case.
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Just think logically for a moment Adam. Would the murderer planning on the perfect crime have left the tools of his trade at the scene of the murder? It is obvious even to the most brainless that the police were snatching at straws to back-up their case.
Adam,logically ? Nay,,he's a feet first,just like the cops.
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Hi Adam :) Morning Susan/all
It does not matter that she said that and he said the other. What we/you have to establish is what forensic science has to offer.
1, There are no witnesses
2, There are no fibers or fingerprints that belong to Jeremy in any of the bedrooms.
3, The rifle was not wiped clean
4, There were no fingerprints belonging to Jeremy on the windows
5, The SOCO's did 3 extensive examinations of the downstairs windows and it was third examination that they noticed a catch had marks on it. On the 28th of October RWC took the catch from the window. On the 31st Of October Elliot and his team told the COA that he took the same catch. RWC/8 How is that possible?
6, The pushbike was examined and no evidence was recovered from it.
7, Wetsuits were examined and no forensic evidence was recovered.
8, Jeremy was convicted because the judge at trial told the jury that the blood in the silencer belonged to Sheila. New forensic science says there is not a match to Sheila inside the silencer and the COA excepted this.
9, The only evidence portrayed by those that think he is guilty is based on what it written in books, newspapers and other forms of media related news.
10, It does not matter that Jeremy was arrogant, selfish or disliked his family. One needs to place him at a crime scene.
11, The facts are that when someone takes their own life with a gun/rifle the shots are mainly under the chin....any pathologist would agree that this would be more likely.
12, I don't believe that everyone lied in order to convict Jeremy, discrepancies yes. However I am suspicious of one officer and one witness.
13, I find it incredible that two officers took paint samples from underneath the AGA placed a yellow sticker on it and did not notice the scratch marks at the side of the sticker.
14, I also find it dishonest to alter to statements to the point where an officer tells the witness not to mention it in court or it will cause problems.
15, I find inconceivable that one officer took a pair of black canvas shoes from a crime scene and told a witness not to say anything.
16, The hand swabs were rejected by the lab because they arrived with guns. The swabs were resubmitted, but there is no evidence to support the fact that new swabs had been taken, so this evidence alone is unsafe because of cross contamination.
17, I get a little grumpy when people say that the police were treating it as a murder/suicide because this is their excuse for not following procedures at crime scene correctly.
18, No matter how you look at it, Julie only came forward when her relationship with Bamber was over.
19, One officer attended the bank with two girls when he was off duty. Gross misconduct.
20, These are just a few facts....So is there any concrete evidence based on forensic science that placed Jeremy at the crime scene?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
1: Correct. The perfect murder.
2: Why should there be ? He walked into the bedrooms, fired the rifle & walked out again.
3: Jeremys interview transcripts say it was wiped clean but they found two fingerprints. One of Jeremys, one of Sheilas.
4: Gloves. Could easily be disposed of. Or the window wiped clean
5: Jeremys interview transcripts said he can enter WHF via windows. There is no reason for anyone to lie.
6: He washed at WHF. Was Jeremy pouring with blood ? He had no injuries the following day.
7: He did not wear one. Wasn't only half a wet suit found ?
8: The tests at the time showed it matched Sheila's blood group. As well as other family members. Wasn't there two cartridges next to Sheila ? How did she return the silencer ?
9: Of course. How else do I get information. Interview Jeremy ? Some information supports Jeremy.
10: The perfect murder. The judge said there was a mountain of circumstantial evidence. It was either Jeremy or Sheila. Together with Mugfords statement & other people who testified that Jeremy literally hated his family.
11: Perfect murder ? Maybe Jeremy knew this. Mugford did say Jeremy had been planning the murder.
12: No. Everyone lied ! Both in and out of court.
13: Do not know anything about this. Is Jeremy saying this ?
14: Do not know anything about this. Is Jeremy saying this ?
15: Have not read this before. Is Jeremy saying this.
16: What hand swabs ?
17: That is an excuse. It is also true. The police agreed they made mistakes early on.
18: Correct. She says that herself. Both in & out of court. From her WS it seems she was not jilted. It was a general decline in the relationship. Especially after the murders. At no time was Mugford pleading with Jeremy to stay with her.
19: I do not understand.
20: People do not usually carry out murders in front of witnesses. Jeremy walked around WHF with a gun. What forensics ?
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1: Correct. The perfect murder.
How do you establish that is was a perfect murder? There are no witnesses who saw Jeremy leave his home or come back to his home that night.
2: Why should there be ? He walked into the bedrooms, fired the rifle & walked out again.
Of course there should be evidence collected to prove he was in the bedrooms. One can't say that it was him because that is what they believe happened, there has to be forensic evidence to prove it and that evidence was never taken.
3: Jeremys interview transcripts say it was wiped clean but they found two fingerprints. One of Jeremys, one of Sheilas.
Jeremy never said the rifle was wiped clean at all. The forensics did find smudged prints on the rifle but were unable to say who the prints belonged to. Also forensics would know if the rifle had been wiped and this was not the case.
4: Gloves. Could easily be disposed of. Or the window wiped clean
Correct they could but no forensic tests can prove that gloves had been worn or that the windows had been wiped clean.
5: Jeremys interview transcripts said he can enter WHF via windows. There is no reason for anyone to lie.
Anyone can gain entry to a house they are familiar of. Its not proof that he entered the house on the night the murders took place is it?
6: He washed at WHF. Was Jeremy pouring with blood ? He had no injuries the following day.
No proof he washed himself at WHF. There is proof he had no injuries even though in court it was suggested that there was this horrendous fight between him and his father.
7: He did not wear one. Wasn't only half a wet suit found ?
One wetsuit was found hung up in Jeremy bedroom at WHF the other was at goldhanger and both were examined and zilch was found.
8: The tests at the time showed it matched Sheila blood group. As well as other family members. Wasn't there two cartridges next to Sheila ? How did she return the silencer.
The ABO test proved it was blood group A which is 40% of the population. The tests at the time were unsafe and the COA except that the LCN DNA might not belong to Sheila. So the jury were mislead. The silencer was never on the rifle at the crime scene. The same silencer was placed with other weapons in the boot of car and the risk of contamination was extremely likely and the silencer would not have been accepted by the lab if they had known this.
9: Of course. How else do I get information. Interview Jeremy ? Some information supports Jeremy.
Agreed
10: The perfect murder. The judge said there was a mountain of circumstantial evidence. It was either Jeremy or Sheila. Together with Mugfords statement & other people who testified that Jeremy did mot like his family.
It was not a perfect murder was it? A perfect murder means that person has got away with it.
11: Perfect murder ? Maybe Jeremy knew this. Mugford did say Jeremy had been planning the murder.
Hearsay
12: No. Everyone lied ! Both in and out of court.
I don't understand, sorry
13: Do not know anything about this. Is Jeremy saying this ?
14: Do not know anything about this. Is Jeremy saying this ?
No
15: Have not read this before. Is Jeremy saying this.
No
16: What hand swabs ?
Sheila hand swabs
17: That is an excuse. It is also true. The police agreed they made mistakes early on.
Agreed
18: Correct. She says that herself. Both in & out of court. From her WS it seems she was not jilted. It was a general decline in the relationship. Especially after the murders. At no time was Mugford pleading with Jeremy to stay with her.
Yet she broke a glass mirror in temper and placed a pillow over Jeremy and when he asked her why she had done that she replied by saying If I can't have you no one can. She was jilted.
19: I do not understand.
20: People do not usually carry out murders in front of witnesses. Jeremy walked around WHF with a gun. What forensics ?
OK, lets put it another way....If you were arrested for a murder you had not committed would you rely on forensics and DNA to prove you were innocent? I think the whole world would rely on this being key evidence at any trial....
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Thank you Adam. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Good to have an good debate.
Do you think Jeremy is innocent or that there were procedural mistakes ( deliberate or not ) by the police & in court, so should be released ?
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Good to have an good debate.
Do you think Jeremy is innocent or that there were procedural mistakes ( deliberate or not ) by the police & in court, so should be released ?
Mistakes happen all the time, but in this case in my opinion there were far too many. In all fairness to Essex police they had not come across this situation before. No proper procedures were carried out at the time, unlike today of course. In a nutshell they messed up bigtime.
It does not matter to me whether a person is guilty or not, its the evidence and facts that are important and in this case it lacks good forensic evidence, yet we have a conviction out it which I believe to be unsafe. :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Mistakes happen all the time, but in this case in my opinion there were far too many. In all fairness to Essex police they had not come across this situation before. No proper procedures were carried out at the time, unlike today of course. In a nutshell they messed up bigtime.
It does not matter to me whether a person is guilty or not, its the evidence and facts that are important and in this case it lacks good forensic evidence, yet we have a conviction out it which I believe to be unsafe. :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Seems to me that Jeremy is accusing the EP, Mugford & his relatives of lying. Surely they have not all been lying for the last 28 years.
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Misled from the beginning until it was fixated in their brains,in other words,brainwashed to believe that Jeremy carried out the murders.
EP had to justify their work in the force because they were already being held over a barrel with the Diane Jones murder prior to this one,,where the police failed miserably in their investigations to find her killer. That case was re-opened this year,but they're probably no further on.
Officers jobs were on the line over this murder,and so as the years have gone by,most will have retired anyway and been secure in knowing that their pensions were intact.
On Mikes' thread,Jeremy was under surveillance,so the police knew where he was on the night of the murders. At home,,and that was midnight,,the time when he was supposed to have committed the murders.
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Seems to me that Jeremy is accusing the EP, Mugford & his relatives of lying. Surely they have not all been lying for the last 28 years.
Not much Jeremy can say or do really is there? Its the evidence that is disputed and it has nothing to do with what anyone says in all fairness. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Seems to me that Jeremy is accusing the EP, Mugford & his relatives of lying. Surely they have not all been lying for the last 28 years.
well they all had very good very good reasons to lie.
the relatives have been proven tgo have lied.
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Seems to me that Jeremy is accusing the EP, Mugford & his relatives of lying. Surely they have not all been lying for the last 28 years.
All have a vested interest in this case. The relatives because of the inheritance and the fact that tyey hate Jeremy and have done since before the murders. Mugford because if she owned up to the fact that she lied on oath she would be gaoled. And the police in that they had retained certain evidence under PII and need to retain their pentions and the appearance of integrity.
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Misled from the beginning until it was fixated in their brains,in other words,brainwashed to believe that Jeremy carried out the murders.
EP had to justify their work in the force because they were already being held over a barrel with the Diane Jones murder prior to this one,,where the police failed miserably in their investigations to find her killer. That case was re-opened this year,but they're probably no further on.
Officers jobs were on the line over this murder,and so as the years have gone by,most will have retired anyway and been secure in knowing that their pensions were intact.
Jeremy was under survil
On Mikes' thread,Jeremy was under surveillance,so the police knew where he was on the night of the murders. At home,,and that was midnight,,the time when he was supposed to have committed the murders.
Jeremy was under surveillance on the night of the murders ? Must be because he was a big drugs baron, which I only found out yesterday. Together with the fact he brought the bike to his house just before the murders because Julie had a part time job & wanted to cycle to the station. How sweet.
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Jeremy was under surveillance on the night of the murders ? Must be because he was a big drugs baron, which I only found out yesterday. Together with the fact he brought the bike to his house just before the murders because Julie had a part time job & wanted to cycle to the station. How sweet.
Where have you got that from lol ;D ;D ;D ;D
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if he was under survelance at the time how did he manage to commit the murders then why wasnt he stoped.
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Where have you got that from lol ;D ;D ;D ;D
He got the first bit from me. What I said was that Jeremy was under surveilance at the time (Operation Stokenchurch) because certain drugs were going missing from WHF and being transported to Scotland. He wasn't a drugs baron. But I suspect he was involved in such transactions at the time?
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if he was under survelance at the time how did he manage to commit the murders then why wasnt he stoped.
There are a lot of things that haven't been revealed nugnug. Because special branch were involved in operation stokenchurch. So I suspect his phone was bugged?
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He got the first bit from me. What I said was that Jeremy was under surveilance at the time (Operation Stokenchurch) because certain drugs were going missing from WHF and being transported to Scotland. He wasn't a drugs baron. But I suspect he was involved in such transactions at the time?
Hi Grahame :) Hope you are well. I know he was on surveillance after the murders, but never he was on the night of the murders....I think I do remember him being questioned about drugs before the murders took place..... :-\ ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Grahame :) Hope you are well. I know he was on surveillance after the murders, but never he was on the night of the murders....I think I do remember him being questioned about drugs before the murders took place..... :-\ ;D ;D ;D
Yes Patti. I didn't say he was under surveilance on the night of the murders.
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Where have you got that from lol ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cannot remember who gave me the bike information.
Jeremy was very cagey regarding the bike in the interview transcripts. He said he brought it over for Julie. He did not mention anything about Julie cycling to the station.
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All have a vested interest in this case. The relatives because of the inheritance and the fact that tyey hate Jeremy and have done since before the murders. Mugford because if she owned up to the fact that she lied on oath she would be gaoled. And the police in that they had retained certain evidence under PII and need to retain their pentions and the appearance of integrity.
The difference being,that if there'd been no money in the kitty,,neither would there have been relatives.
Great,isn't it ? Pity the jury hadn't been told the full truth about who the beneficiaries would have been.
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There are a lot of things that haven't been revealed nugnug. Because special branch were involved in operation stokenchurch. So I suspect his phone was bugged?
so if that was the case they would know exactly what he said to mugford.
hang on why would special branch be involved they dont normally deal with drugs cases.
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The difference being,that if there'd been no money in the kitty,,neither would there have been relatives.
Great,isn't it ? Pity the jury hadn't been told the full truth about who the beneficiaries would have been.
Mugford has never retracted a word of her WS or what she said in court.
Jeremy will only get a release based on new evidence or proof that other evidence was wrong. Calling Mugford a liar will not get him anywhere. It is her word against his. He knows this & has not focused on Mugford since 1986. She was not called to give evidence at his appeal hearing.
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se cant retract she would be leaving herself open for a perjury charge.
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MacADAM, Your Post # 648 :-
So you obtained your library book for a'Steal'!
Which Library did you 'steal' it from?
Can you kindly steal another for Yours Truly?
'I would say' that that particular book (Wilkes on Blood Relations) is a highly soughtafter book to be borrowed with the apparent ongoing interest in the 'case'.
With people 'stealing' the tome, there won't be any left to beg, borrow or steal.
It will soon be as difficult to obtain as "Bobby Boutflower" by Mary Bout flour!, of which there is only one vol. available world-wide, and that's in Germany. No Library in this country has this particular biography for ref or loan.
Considering the amount of important people who went on the Professor's courses during his 30 odd years as Principal of the former Royal Agricultural College, and his importance to the Allies from his Scientific improvements to farming methods, I can well understand Crosby Lockwood publishing this extremely interesting( as Steve Davies is wont to say) agricultural treatise.
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se cant retract she would be leaving herself open for a perjury charge.
She travelled over from abroad for the appeal hearing. She was not called to give evidence. Why ?
Surely Jeremys expensive lawyers could have had a crack at her. See if she wilted, looked unconvincing or made a big mistake which they could jump on. They did not. OJ is experienced in court hearings. Apparently, he was unconvincing when grilled at his civil prosecution. Just like Jeremy was unconvincing in 1986. They both lost.
Perhaps they knew Mugford would not wilt. Either because it is true or because Jeremy apparently jilted her years earlier !
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That is incorrect actually. Defence wanted to put JM on the stand to question her over her NOTW deal but as the defence did not have the contract to hand,the judge would not allow them to cross examine her. Defence offered to go get the contract,but the judge refused and therefore the defence were unable to question her on the issue.
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Mugford has never retracted a word of her WS or what she said in court.
Jeremy will only get a release based on new evidence or proof that other evidence was wrong. Calling Mugford a liar will not get him anywhere. It is her word against his. He knows this & has not focused on Mugford since 1986. She was not called to give evidence at his appeal hearing.
I should think JM didn't retract her statement after so many goes, until the right one suited everyone !
Jeremy won't be satisfied at being released on appeal or anything like that.He won't accept it. He wishes to be exonerated completely,from any wrong-doing.
A re-trial would be the answer in all fairness.
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Pssssss to my last Post,
I expect the late, great 'MilkSnatcher' Margeret Thatcher, will turn over in her grave to be reminded of the Dairy Industry's importance to this country during the Hostilities.
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That is incorrect actually. Defence wanted to put JM on the stand to question her over her NOTW deal but as the defence did not have the contract to hand,the judge would not allow them to cross examine her. Defence offered to go get the contract,but the judge refused and therefore the defence were unable to question her on the issue.
so hardly an unbiased judge then.
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The difference being,that if there'd been no money in the kitty,,neither would there have been relatives.
Great,isn't it ? Pity the jury hadn't been told the full truth about who the beneficiaries would have been.
Exactly. They were not told the whole truth. Either about the relatives benefitting from Jeremy's incarceration or about the NOTW deal wuth Mugford. Disgraceful state of affairs. And you tell me the appeal courts weren't made aware of this? Shame on them all.
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That is incorrect actually. Defence wanted to put JM on the stand to question her over her NOTW deal but as the defence did not have the contract to hand,the judge would not allow them to cross examine her. Defence offered to go get the contract,but the judge refused and therefore the defence were unable to question her on the issue.
Again. Disgraceful. And they use this appeal and say it was fair. Anyone with common sense can see through such a sharade of justice. This kind of tom foolery really makes my blood boil. If ever I get to rule this country every unjust judge would be thrown into gaol. Oops. There's me dreaming again. ::) Woe to that nation when the just men fail to do their duty.
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Again. Disgraceful. And they use this appeal and say it was fair. Anyone with common sense can see through such a sharade of justice. This kind of tom foolery really makes my blood boil. If ever I get to rule this country every unjust judge would be thrown into gaol. Oops. There's me dreaming again. ::) Woe to that nation when the just men fail to do their duty.
I agree entirely Grahame,,and know exactly how you feel hun.
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My page 20 scenario says he wore gloves. I never mentioned marigolds. Although thinking again he did not have to wear gloves. As mentioned yesterday.
The main criticism of my page 20 scenario was the wetsuit & gloves. Not much criticism of what happened in WHF.
Wrong. I talked about how nons need to resort to making Sheila into a sleeping zombie just waiting to be "led" to her death to make their scenarios work. I have a huge problem with that bit in particular!
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Good. There is loads of information & opinions. Both for and against Jeremy.
Strange that I got the book so cheaply. I got it recently as well. Less than 6 months ago. It is in good condition considering it has ten library stamps on !
Where did you buy the book? Just checked Amazon.co.uk. They have a few copies ranging in price from 26.99 pounds to 80.92. Expensive!!
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Wrong. I talked about how nons need to resort to making Sheila into a sleeping zombie just waiting to be "led" to her death to make their scenarios work. I have a huge problem with that bit in particular!
They have to do that Alias. It is the only way they can make her fit into their lame senarios. Never mind about the lioness protecting her young to the death. They have her all drugged up saying please kill my children and then lay me down and shoot me Jeremy. Stupid twits.
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Me too Alias. And also,Adams "scenario" doesn't take into account the sighting at the window,the one male and female (murder and suicide) found on entry,the gun found downstairs with red paint on its barrel (for which EP originally took paint samples from the aga for) and the fact that a silencer (exhibit SBJ/1 was found at the scene. Any "scenario" requires these FACTS to be taken into account.
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Hi Adam :) Morning Susan/all
It does not matter that she said that and he said the other. What we/you have to establish is what forensic science has to offer.
1, There are no witnesses
2, There are no fibers or fingerprints that belong to Jeremy in any of the bedrooms.
3, The rifle was not wiped clean
4, There were no fingerprints belonging to Jeremy on the windows
5, The SOCO's did 3 extensive examinations of the downstairs windows and it was third examination that they noticed a catch had marks on it. On the 28th of October RWC took the catch from the window. On the 31st Of October Elliot and his team told the COA that he took the same catch. RWC/8 How is that possible?
6, The pushbike was examined and no evidence was recovered from it.
7, Wetsuits were examined and no forensic evidence was recovered.
8, Jeremy was convicted because the judge at trial told the jury that the blood in the silencer belonged to Sheila. New forensic science says there is not a match to Sheila inside the silencer and the COA excepted this.
9, The only evidence portrayed by those that think he is guilty is based on what it written in books, newspapers and other forms of media related news.
10, It does not matter that Jeremy was arrogant, selfish or disliked his family. One needs to place him at a crime scene.
11, The facts are that when someone takes their own life with a gun/rifle the shots are mainly under the chin....any pathologist would agree that this would be more likely.
12, I don't believe that everyone lied in order to convict Jeremy, discrepancies yes. However I am suspicious of one officer and one witness.
13, I find it incredible that two officers took paint samples from underneath the AGA placed a yellow sticker on it and did not notice the scratch marks at the side of the sticker.
14, I also find it dishonest to alter to statements to the point where an officer tells the witness not to mention it in court or it will cause problems.
15, I find inconceivable that one officer took a pair of black canvas shoes from a crime scene and told a witness not to say anything.
16, The hand swabs were rejected by the lab because they arrived with guns. The swabs were resubmitted, but there is no evidence to support the fact that new swabs had been taken, so this evidence alone is unsafe because of cross contamination.
17, I get a little grumpy when people say that the police were treating it as a murder/suicide because this is their excuse for not following procedures at crime scene correctly.
18, No matter how you look at it, Julie only came forward when her relationship with Bamber was over.
19, One officer attended the bank with two girls when he was off duty. Gross misconduct.
20, These are just a few facts....So is there any concrete evidence based on forensic science that placed Jeremy at the crime scene?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Absolutely brilliant, Patti!
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Hello Patti brilliant post you deserve a barrel for that. Hope Adam reads it and has a think about some of his theories. Maybe share your beer ;D ;D ;D ;D think Barnsley is quite near to you ;D
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Oi you two don't make me blush lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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That is incorrect actually. Defence wanted to put JM on the stand to question her over her NOTW deal but as the defence did not have the contract to hand,the judge would not allow them to cross examine her. Defence offered to go get the contract,but the judge refused and therefore the defence were unable to question her on the issue.
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Was that at the appeal hearing ? The defence should have got their act together. It was their appeal so they had enough time.
The NOTW would have experience in knowing when someone should sign a deal. Mugford signed after conviction. It was a high profile case. She would have been hounded by the press. Signing a deal is perhaps a good idea.
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Hello Patti brilliant post you deserve a barrel for that. Hope Adam reads it and has a think about some of his theories. Maybe share your beer ;D ;D ;D ;D think Barnsley is quite near to you ;D
I did respond.
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Me too Alias. And also,Adams "scenario" doesn't take into account the sighting at the window,the one male and female (murder and suicide) found on entry,the gun found downstairs with red paint on its barrel (for which EP originally took paint samples from the aga for) and the fact that a silencer (exhibit SBJ/1 was found at the scene. Any "scenario" requires these FACTS to be taken into account.
I disagree & have already discussed the one male, one female log.
The window sighting/trick of the light is nothing to do with my scenario period from first shot to last.
Gun found downstairs ?
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That is incorrect actually. Defence wanted to put JM on the stand to question her over her NOTW deal but as the defence did not have the contract to hand,the judge would not allow them to cross examine her. Defence offered to go get the contract,but the judge refused and therefore the defence were unable to question her on the issue.
[/quote
Was that at the appeal hearing ? The defence should have got their act together. It was their appeal so they had enough time.
The NOTW would have experience in knowing when someone should sign a deal. Mugford signed after conviction. It was a high profile case. She would have been hounded by the press. Signing a deal is perhaps a good idea.
A good idea? Was it also a good idea to pose suggestively on the back of a tragedy involving little children?
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That is incorrect actually. Defence wanted to put JM on the stand to question her over her NOTW deal but as the defence did not have the contract to hand,the judge would not allow them to cross examine her. Defence offered to go get the contract,but the judge refused and therefore the defence were unable to question her on the issue.
Was that at the appeal hearing ? It was Jeremys appeal. They should have got their act together.
Mugford signed after conviction. Why not sign ?, she was going to be pestered by the press.
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Alias I posted this very point to Adam yesterday Julie posing and smiling outside the Court when the love of her life had just be sent to prison for life and the £25.000 she knew she was going to receive did she not think that 5 lives had been lost two of them wee children for her to obtain this money. Has she no shame whatsover must be as hard as nails. >:(
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Jeremy was keen to tell anyone that would listen how he hated his family. Mary Mugford ( Julies mother) testified this as previously mentioned.
James Richards, a friend of Mugford, but not of Jeremy also testified this. ' I fucking hate my parents' he told him. Three times ! Richards testified that it sounded like Jeremy meant it !
I can imagine Jeremy boasting to Julie about what he had done. Before he was under suspiscion he also boasted to Rimmington 'I am the only person who knows what happened that night'.
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Alias I posted this very point to Adam yesterday Julie posing and smiling outside the Court when the love of her life had just be sent to prison for life and the £25.000 she knew she was going to receive did she not think that 5 lives had been lost two of them wee children for her to obtain this money. Has she no shame whatsover must be as hard as nails. >:(
Love of her life ? They had split up months earlier.
She did think of the twins. Believing that the right person should be behind bars. She approached the police.
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Jeremy was keen to tell anyone that would listen how he hated his family. Mary Mugford ( Julies mother) testified this as previously mentioned.
James Richards, a friend of Mugford, but not of Jeremy also testified this. ' I fucking hate my parents' he told him. Three times ! Richards testified that it sounded like Jeremy meant it !
I can imagine Jeremy boasting to Julie about what he had done. Before he was under suspiscion he also boasted to Rimmington 'I am the only person who knows what happened that night'.
You can repeat this till the cows come home, it is not evidence of anything.
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You can repeat this till the cows come home, it is not evidence of anything.
It is witness evidence. Before forensics people would be convicted on witnesses & cicumstantial evidence.
Jeremy had witness evidence against him & 'a mountain of circumstantial evidence' according to the judge.
Juries will be influenced.
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It is witness evidence. Before forensics people would be convicted on witnesses & cicumstantial evidence.
Jeremy had witness evidence against him & 'a mountain of circumstantial evidence' according to the judge.
Juries will be influenced.
That "mountain" consisting of Julie Mugford´s dodgy testimony, which the judge warned the jury about - and the tampered with, in today´s world inadmissable silencer evidence. What else does this "mountain" consist of?
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Mugford is a witness. There were other witnesses as well. Including Jeremy who was unconvincing.
The mountain of 'circimstantial evidence is that Jeremy phoned the police. If Neville had not phoned Jeremy, Jeremy is guilty as 'Sheila' had gone crazy. It was him or Sheila. There is no evidence Neville phoned Jeremy.
He had a bike at home, knew the routes & had loaded a gun that evening. He phoned Mugford & knew how to get in WHF through windows. He knew how to exit & lock from outside.
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Mugford is a witness. There were other witnesses as well. Including Jeremy who was unconvincing.
The mountain of 'circimstantial evidence is that Jeremy phoned the police. If Neville had not phoned Jeremy, Jeremy is guilty as 'Sheila' had gone crazy. It was him or Sheila. There is no evidence Neville phoned Jeremy.
He had a bike at home, knew the routes & had loaded a gun that evening. He phoned Mugford & knew how to get in WHF through windows. He knew how to exit & lock from outside.
if nevile hadent phoned him.
if does not constitute evidence.
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If Neville had not phoned him, how would he know ?
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Mugford is a witness. There were other witnesses as well. Including Jeremy who was unconvincing.
The mountain of 'circimstantial evidence is that Jeremy phoned the police. If Neville had not phoned Jeremy, Jeremy is guilty as 'Sheila' had gone crazy. It was him or Sheila. There is no evidence Neville phoned Jeremy.
He had a bike at home, knew the routes & had loaded a gun that evening. He phoned Mugford & knew how to get in WHF through windows. He knew how to exit & lock from outside.
Unconvincing because he had nothing to tell. How on earth can anyone,whose faced with a barage of questions,be expected to answer,when they know nothing of what happened that night ?
The bike stayed put,,and for all we know,Neville may have been in the process of securing the rifle knowing that the twins were staying there.
He phoned JM because she was his only contact,as after all,,his relatives weren't exactly supportive at any time,even before the tragedy,they hated him like poison.
If Jeremy had committed the murders,,why did he bother ringing the police anyway ? Why not just turn over and forget about it ? A psychopath would have done,,and it's been well established that Jeremy isn't sick in the head/mind.He hasn't even shown signs of violence in prison.
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Unconvincing because he had nothing to tell. How on earth can anyone,whose faced with a barage of questions,be expected to answer,when they know nothing of what happened that night ?
The bike stayed put,,and for all we know,Neville may have been in the process of securing the rifle knowing that the twins were staying there.
He phoned JM because she was his only contact,as after all,,his relatives weren't exactly supportive at any time,even before the tragedy,they hated him like poison.
If Jeremy had committed the murders,,why did he bother ringing the police anyway ? Why not just turn over and forget about it ? A psychopath would have done,,and it's been well established that Jeremy isn't sick in the head/mind.He hasn't even shown signs of violence in prison.
Perhaps Jeremy did plan to go back to bed after the murders. Then look surprised when told the news. However Neville had been found in the kitchen brutally beaten by the phone. He had to explain this. Telling the police he had received a phone call explains this.
Jeremy worked on the farm so was maybe due to be at the house first thing in the morning. So would have been first on the scene anyway.
Ringing the police & acting concerned puts him in the driving seat straight away.
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The judge at trial could not believe Jeremy phoned Mugford at 3am.
Witness testimony says the phone call was before the police phone call.
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Perhaps Jeremy did plan to go back to bed after the murders. Then look surprised when told the news. However Neville had been found in the kitchen brutally beaten by the phone. He had to explain this. Telling the police he had received a phone call explains this.
Jeremy worked on the farm so was maybe due to be at the house first thing in the morning. So would have been first on the scene anyway.
Ringing the police & acting concerned puts him in the driving seat straight away.
No,he wouldn't have been the first at the farm.Another farm-worker who used to be there early would have found them all. I must say that if Jeremy had slaughtered them all,he was cutting it fine before that farmhand ( now deceased ) arrived there,because he'd have found Sheila still alive at 4am/4.30. Not forgetting that Sheila herself didn't die much before 7.45 am while Jeremy was outside with the police.
Jeremy didn't act concerned.He didn't know the extent of the tragedy,did he ?
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No,he wouldn't have been the first at the farm.Another farm-worker who used to be there early would have found them all. I must say that if Jeremy had slaughtered them all,he was cutting it fine before that farmhand ( now deceased ) arrived there,because he'd have found Sheila still alive at 4am/4.30. Not forgetting that Sheila herself didn't die much before 7.45 am while Jeremy was outside with the police.
Jeremy didn't act concerned.He didn't know the extent of the tragedy,did he ?
If Jeremy had not made the call & someone else found the bodies, Jeremy would have still been a suspect. Lots of people did not believe Sheila was capable of the murders & Jeremy stood to inherit a fortune.
He made the decision to phone the police & convince them from the start. That backed him into a corner if the police suspected him in future - it was him or Sheila. However he felt confident, telling Mugford it was an 'open & shut case' & he was 'watertight'.
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Perhaps Jeremy realised he had to make the call after phoning Mugford at 3am.
If he was ever a suspect, Mugford or her flatmates could mention the 3am call. Phoning Mugford was a mistake, but he could rectify this by phoning the police.
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Mugford is a witness. There were other witnesses as well. Including Jeremy who was unconvincing.
The mountain of 'circimstantial evidence is that Jeremy phoned the police. If Neville had not phoned Jeremy, Jeremy is guilty as 'Sheila' had gone crazy. It was him or Sheila. There is no evidence Neville phoned Jeremy.
He had a bike at home, knew the routes & had loaded a gun that evening. He phoned Mugford & knew how to get in WHF through windows. He knew how to exit & lock from outside.
And where did all that information come from? Jeremy himself. What a twit if he was guilty. By the way Jeremy DID phone the police. That is not circumstantial evidence.
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Mugford is a witness. There were other witnesses as well. Including Jeremy who was unconvincing.
The mountain of 'circimstantial evidence is that Jeremy phoned the police. If Neville had not phoned Jeremy, Jeremy is guilty as 'Sheila' had gone crazy. It was him or Sheila. There is no evidence Neville phoned Jeremy.
He had a bike at home, knew the routes & had loaded a gun that evening. He phoned Mugford & knew how to get in WHF through windows. He knew how to exit & lock from outside.
To what exactly? I´ll go along and pretend I believe her. She said that Jeremy had been planning those murders for close to a year. She knew all about it, she even provided sleeping pills for him to sedate his family, then burn the house down.
Why didn´t she warn the family if she knew? Why wasn´t she prosecuted for this (or for any of her other crimes for that matter). Why weren´t the relatives demanding that Mugford be prosecuted for NOT warning the family of imminent danger? Wouldn´t you have?
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Perhaps Jeremy did plan to go back to bed after the murders. Then look surprised when told the news. However Neville had been found in the kitchen brutally beaten by the phone. He had to explain this. Telling the police he had received a phone call explains this.
Jeremy worked on the farm so was maybe due to be at the house first thing in the morning. So would have been first on the scene anyway.
Ringing the police & acting concerned puts him in the driving seat straight away.
I'm afraid all that sounds very unconvincing to me. Ralph was not found by the phone. If he was found by the phone Jeremy would have rectified it. Why did he have to explain anything? He could have just pleaded ignorance. Also if he did it he would have made sure he was not the first at the farm in the morning.
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The judge at trial could not believe Jeremy phoned Mugford at 3am.
Witness testimony says the phone call was before the police phone call.
Oh! you mean Ducky Drake of Miss whiplash fame? ::) A very stable kind of man indeed. ;)
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If Jeremy had not made the call & someone else found the bodies, Jeremy would have still been a suspect. Lots of people did not believe Sheila was capable of the murders & Jeremy stood to inherit a fortune.
He made the decision to phone the police & convince them from the start. That backed him into a corner if the police suspected him in future - it was him or Sheila. However he felt confident, telling Mugford it was an 'open & shut case' & he was 'watertight'.
No he wouldn't have.
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Perhaps Jeremy realised he had to make the call after phoning Mugford at 3am.
If he was ever a suspect, Mugford or her flatmates could mention the 3am call. Phoning Mugford was a mistake, but he could rectify this by phoning the police.
If he had done the crime why would he then phone Muggy? It doesn't make sense. Any of it doesn't make sense. If he was planning to do the perfect murder as is suggested then rule number one is told tell anybody. The actions of a clever man? Or a foolish man? A guilty man? Or an innocent man?
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To what exactly? I´ll go along and pretend I believe her. She said that Jeremy had been planning those murders for close to a year. She knew all about it, she even provided sleeping pills for him to sedate his family, then burn the house down.
Why didn´t she warn the family if she knew? Why wasn´t she prosecuted for this (or for any of her other crimes for that matter). Why weren´t the relatives demanding that Mugford be prosecuted for NOT warning the family of imminent danger? Wouldn´t you have?
Taff Jones didn't believe her. He suspected she was lying. Then enter the boneheads Bewes and Miller.
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To what exactly? I´ll go along and pretend I believe her. She said that Jeremy had been planning those murders for close to a year. She knew all about it, she even provided sleeping pills for him to sedate his family, then burn the house down.
Why didn´t she warn the family if she knew? Why wasn´t she prosecuted for this (or for any of her other crimes for that matter). Why weren´t the relatives demanding that Mugford be prosecuted for NOT warning the family of imminent danger? Wouldn´t you have?
Mugford said in her statements that she did not beleive and did not want to beleive Jeremy. She was also 'under his spell'. Would anyone beleive her anyway ? A TV interview after the trial, Mugford said Jeremy liked to say things to shock people.
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Talking of lies. All this 'dad' & 'idilic farm life' Jeremy has been going about recently.
Why doesn't he just say he hated farm life & his family. Several witnesses have said Jeremy said exactly that to them several times. Are they all lying ?
Jeremy should say 'Yes I did hate my family & farm life. Does that make me the killer' ?
OJ said at his civil hearing that he 'would never wear those shoes'. Magazine pictures showed he did used to have those shoes. Jurers said he should have just said 'yes I did have those shoes. Does that make me the killer' ?
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Talking of lies. All this 'dad' & 'idilic farm life' Jeremy has been going about recently.
Why doesn't he just say he hated farm life & his family. Several witnesses have said Jeremy said exactly that to them several times. Are they all lying ?
Jeremy should say 'Yes I did hate my family & farm life. Does that make me the killer' ?
OJ said at his civil hearing that he 'would never wear those shoes'. Magazine pictures showed he did used to have those shoes. Jurers said he should have just said 'yes I did have those shoes. Does that make me the killer' ?
Adam you will find that those that knew him well from the pub and others who had dated him say he never shut up talking about farming. I do not think anyone is lying, but they might stretch the truth somewhat.....Things like this happen, when there is a media frenzy.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Talking of lies. All this 'dad' & 'idilic farm life' Jeremy has been going about recently.
Why doesn't he just say he hated farm life & his family. Several witnesses have said Jeremy said exactly that to them several times. Are they all lying ?
'Yes I did hate my family & farm life. Does that make me the killer' ?
OJ said at his civil hearing that he 'would never wear those shoes'. Magazine pictures showed he did used to have those shoes. Jurers said he should have just said 'yes I did have those shoes. Does that make me the killer' ?
He is probably just reminiscing? Life on the farm was not as idillic as some would have you believe. You just have to read what Collin Caffell said about it to see that. I liked Colin's book. But found it rather haunting at times. Jeremy was a bit rebellious and seemed to put some people's backs up. He was no angel and neither was Sheila according to some. But Campion found him quite pleasant to talk to and very knowlegeable about tractors.
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Mugford said in her statements that she did not beleive and did not want to beleive Jeremy. She was also 'under his spell'. Would anyone beleive her anyway ? A TV interview after the trial, Mugford said Jeremy liked to say things to shock people.
You know what, I am not buying this! "under his spell" my arse! Five people DEAD, she could have WARNED them and SAVED them - if what she says is true, that is. Why didn´t the relatives want her held responsible, why have they never talked about this?
Jeremy, again according to her, called her on the evening of the murders and said: tonight´s the night. What does Julie say she did: She sighed with relief that he had finally decided not to commit the murders. HOW does this make any sense at all?
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You know what, I am not buying this! "under his spell" my arse! Five people DEAD, she could have WARNED them and SAVED them - if what she says is true, that is. Why didn´t the relatives want her held responsible, why have they never talked about this?
Jeremy, again according to her, called her on the evening of the murders and said: tonight´s the night. What does Julie say she did: She sighed with relief that he had finally decided not to commit the murders. HOW does this make any sense at all?
He did phone Mugford at around 10. That is not disputed. Mugford is clear what he said. Jeremy in his interview transcripts not so clear. Mugford thought he was not serious.
Jeremy had been asking Colin Caffel when Sheila & the children were staying. 'It's now or never' sounds beleivable.
Phoning Mugford at 3am looks a lot worse.
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He did phone Mugford at around 10. That is not disputed. Mugford is clear what he said. Jeremy in his interview transcripts not so clear. Mugford thought he was not serious.
Jeremy had been asking Colin Caffel when Sheila & the children were staying. 'It's now or never' sounds beleivable.
Phoning Mugford at 3am looks a lot worse.
I don´t think you read my post thoroughly.
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Isn't Crimes Hearts and Coronets the website of Ian Stephens? I'm sure Martin told us this? That man is more than a "guilter"...he is a hater and one very unsavoury troll indeed! He firmly believes JB to be a psychopath. Obviously JB has done an excellent job at hiding it for 28 years!
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You know what, I am not buying this! "under his spell" my arse! Five people DEAD, she could have WARNED them and SAVED them - if what she says is true, that is. Why didn´t the relatives want her held responsible, why have they never talked about this?
Jeremy, again according to her, called her on the evening of the murders and said: tonight´s the night. What does Julie say she did: She sighed with relief that he had finally decided not to commit the murders. HOW does this make any sense at all?
Thought Mugford told him to not be stupid & go back to bed.
The relatives think the same as me. They believe that Mugford thought Jeremy was not serious.
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Thought Mugford told him to not be stupid & go back to bed.
The relatives think the same as me. They believe that Mugford thought Jeremy was not serious.
No, she said that when he called later in the night - allegedly after the murders.
So the relatives (and you) think that even after the murders, Julie did not think Jeremy was serious? He had been talking about this for a year, calling her to tell her that he was going to do it tonight, even calling her after the fact to say it was done.
You really have to excuse her every step of the way. What about the sleeping pills she left at Jeremy´s home after he had talked about, well, giving his family.... sleeping pills, then burn the house down. How much can you excuse Muggie? Unbelievable, really!
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No, she said that when he called later in the night - allegedly after the murders.
So the relatives (and you) think that even after the murders, Julie did not think Jeremy was serious? He had been talking about this for a year, calling her to tell her that he was going to do it tonight, even calling her after the fact to say it was done.
You really have to excuse her every step of the way. What about the sleeping pills she left at Jeremy´s home after he had talked about, well, giving his family.... sleeping pills, then burn the house down. How much can you excuse Muggie? Unbelievable, really!
Oh the 3am phone call when Jeremy said 'everything is going well'.
Mugford was half asleep. She testified that after putting the phone down it started to sink in what may have happened. She could not phone back as her phone was only there for incoming calls.
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Oh the 3am phone call when Jeremy said 'everything is going well'.
Mugford was half asleep. She testified that after putting the phone down it started to sink in what may have happened. She could not phone back as her phone was only there for incoming calls.
Oh, so she went back to bed then....
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She said she went back to bed but could not sleep.
What could she do from London ?
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She said she went back to bed but could not sleep.
What could she do from London ?
Get dressed, go out of her flat, find a payphone, call. Not go to bed!
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Isn't Crimes Hearts and Coronets the website of Ian Stephens? I'm sure Martin told us this? That man is more than a "guilter"...he is a hater and one very unsavoury troll indeed! He firmly believes JB to be a psychopath. Obviously JB has done an excellent job at hiding it for 28 years!
Yes,Ian Stephens the peddler of poison.Reminds me of Tony Bennett the equally poisonous solicitor who spread lies about the McCanns and even had leaflets printed to spread around the Leicester area damning and accusing the McCanns. Odious characters.
Amaral and his crew were corrupt,there's no disputing that.
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Yes,Ian Stephens the peddler of poison.Reminds me of Tony Bennett the equally poisonous solicitor who spread lies about the McCanns and even had leaflets printed to spread around the Leicester area damning and accusing the McCanns. Odious characters.
Amaral and his crew were corrupt,there's no disputing that.
Ahhh!! Ian Stephens, Daniel Day, Sir Simeon, wonder what other names he uses??
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Ahhh!! Ian Stephens, Daniel Day, Sir Simeon, wonder what other names he uses??
Plonkerboy? ;D
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Get dressed, go out of her flat, find a payphone, call. Not go to bed!
Of course Alias, how could she sleep with that knowledge? It's very hard to believe imo. Some things really are a matter of life and death and that certainly was.
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Plonkerboy? ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D not sure if he's used that one yet Grahame ;D ;D ;D
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tyler/lookout just imagine Adam told me to go to that awful site to research the case. Good thing I don't take the slightest bit of notice of him and know he is very much Jeremy guilty and has never had an opem mind since he joined the forum again. ;D ;D ;D Adam and I have met before ;D
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Wrong. I talked about how nons need to resort to making Sheila into a sleeping zombie just waiting to be "led" to her death to make their scenarios work. I have a huge problem with that bit in particular!
I don't see why,since that's exactly the state she was in induced by Haloperidol for the weeks preceding the murders.
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Unconvincing because he had nothing to tell. How on earth can anyone,whose faced with a barage of questions,be expected to answer,when they know nothing of what happened that night ?
The bike stayed put,,and for all we know,Neville may have been in the process of securing the rifle knowing that the twins were staying there.
He phoned JM because she was his only contact,as after all,,his relatives weren't exactly supportive at any time,even before the tragedy,they hated him like poison.
If Jeremy had committed the murders,,why did he bother ringing the police anyway ? Why not just turn over and forget about it ? A psychopath would have done,,and it's been well established that Jeremy isn't sick in the head/mind.He hasn't even shown signs of violence in prison.
How did the brown,yellowish mud get on a ladies' bicycle lookout? Which lady rode it through mud and where in the vicinity did she take her bath? The telephone calls(three in total to Julie,one to Police and one from the kitchen telephone at the White House to his own answerphone at Goldhanger) are symptomatic of a man on tenterhooks(and central nervous system stimulants) and if you think he went to bed at all that night to be woken by a telephone call you are in my opinion mistaken.
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I don't see why,since that's exactly the state she was in induced by Haloperidol for the weeks preceding the murders.
How many times do we have to repeat this: Sheila´s Haloperidol dose was HALVED the last time she got it. It is extremely DANGEROUS, there are numerous examples of people having their Haloperidol dose dramatically cut down COMMITTING VIOLENT ACTS, INCLUDING MURDER. Besides, Sheila was due another dose, she was running VERY LOW ON HER MEDICATION.
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steve uk you have been on the forum long enough now to know the bike was forensically tested. End of.
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I'm afraid all that sounds very unconvincing to me. Ralph was not found by the phone. If he was found by the phone Jeremy would have rectified it. Why did he have to explain anything? He could have just pleaded ignorance. Also if he did it he would have made sure he was not the first at the farm in the morning.
Even more reason to suspect that Nevill never reached a telephone that morning. Jeremy's personality explains why he had to get in on the act: a solitary,neglected boy who had no sense of where he belonged in life except a vague notion of being in the monied classes which sustained him throughout his teenage years,suddenly grasping his opportunity to put eveything behind him,causing a commotion and becoming the centre of attention therefrom,playing the part of a heartbroken son when expedient until the time when memories faded and Jeremy could resume the playboy lifestyle.
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If he had done the crime why would he then phone Muggy? It doesn't make sense. Any of it doesn't make sense. If he was planning to do the perfect murder as is suggested then rule number one is told tell anybody. The actions of a clever man? Or a foolish man? A guilty man? Or an innocent man?
He thought he had done enough to tie her in as an accessory. And how Jeremy had ill entreated her,Julie feeling the guilt for both of them. Jeremy sensed a problem with Julie and made up the hitman story,a ludicrous allegation to make if Julie wanted her statement to be credible before Police. One thing the Jeremy supporters must accept even if they insist on his innocence:those five victims meant nothing emotionally to him as he cleared up after his parents,stealing the video recorder from Nevill,placing his booty into piles and tossing the twins' handful of possessions at Maida Vale into a black plastic bin bag.
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Get dressed, go out of her flat, find a payphone, call. Not go to bed!
We all make mistakes.
Mugford was clear what Jeremy said in that 3am phone call. Jeremys interview transcript says 'no comment' when Jeremy was asked about it.
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tyler/lookout just imagine Adam told me to go to that awful site to research the case. Good thing I don't take the slightest bit of notice of him and know he is very much Jeremy guilty and has never had an opem mind since he joined the forum again. ;D ;D ;D Adam and I have met before ;D
When you do you're online research, you will find articles are either for or against Jeremy. Best read both sides like I have done.
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theres something a bit strange here.
a statement of no comment couldn't be legally recorded by the police in those days.
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How did the brown,yellowish mud get on a ladies' bicycle lookout? Which lady rode it through mud and where in the vicinity did she take her bath? The telephone calls(three in total to Julie,one to Police and one from the kitchen telephone at the White House to his own answerphone at Goldhanger) are symptomatic of a man on tenterhooks(and central nervous system stimulants) and if you think he went to bed at all that night to be woken by a telephone call you are in my opinion mistaken.
I told you before Steve. He rode it through the sulphur mines of Maldon. ;D
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Even more reason to suspect that Nevill never reached a telephone that morning. Jeremy's personality explains why he had to get in on the act: a solitary,neglected boy who had no sense of where he belonged in life except a vague notion of being in the monied classes which sustained him throughout his teenage years,suddenly grasping his opportunity to put eveything behind him,causing a commotion and becoming the centre of attention therefrom,playing the part of a heartbroken son when expedient until the time when memories faded and Jeremy could resume the playboy lifestyle.
Yeah yeah. ::)
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There are over 30 'no comments' & 'don't knows'.
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He thought he had done enough to tie her in as an accessory. And how Jeremy had ill entreated her,Julie feeling the guilt for both of them. Jeremy sensed a problem with Julie and made up the hitman story,a ludicrous allegation to make if Julie wanted her statement to be credible before Police. One thing the Jeremy supporters must accept even if they insist on his innocence:those five victims meant nothing emotionally to him as he cleared up after his parents,stealing the video recorder from Nevill,placing his booty into piles and tossing the twins' handful of possessions at Maida Vale into a black plastic bin bag.
And that is your explanation for him to commit the perfect murder? ::)
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We all make mistakes.
Mugford was clear what Jeremy said in that 3am phone call. Jeremys interview transcript says 'no comment' when Jeremy was asked about it.
The phone call doesn't make sense. It sounds ambiguous to me. What was it? "Everything is going well. Something is wrong at the farm". I think her hearing was a bit defective, don't you?
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When you do you're online research, you will find articles are either for or against Jeremy. Best read both sides like I have done.
I think that rather applies to you rather than Susan?
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There are over 30 'no comments' & 'don't knows'.
This has been answered before. Why say the same thing over again?
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Even more reason to suspect that Nevill never reached a telephone that morning. Jeremy's personality explains why he had to get in on the act: a solitary,neglected boy who had no sense of where he belonged in life except a vague notion of being in the monied classes which sustained him throughout his teenage years,suddenly grasping his opportunity to put eveything behind him,causing a commotion and becoming the centre of attention therefrom,playing the part of a heartbroken son when expedient until the time when memories faded and Jeremy could resume the playboy lifestyle.
Neville was shot on the stairs. He was either heading to the kitchen to the phone or trying to get outside. He was badly injured.
Jeremy chased him downstairs, he had run out of bullets. He hit Neville as hard as possible with the rifle butt. This injured Neville further. There was no going back now & a fired up Jeremy continued to brutally beat Neville until he no longer resisted.
The gun was reloaded...
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There are over 30 'no comments' & 'don't knows'.
there shouldent be any no comments becouse the police werent allowed to record them in those days.
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This has been answered before. Why say the same thing over again?
Was responding to a post on another page.
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There are over 30 'no comments' & 'don't knows'.
Here is the statement of Jeremy Bamber:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33765.html#msg33765
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1144.0.html
I don't know about you. But I think he gave the cops the information they needed.
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Adam I had been a member of this forum for nearly two years and had posted up 8200 posts I think I have done my share of research and know both sides of the coin. What puzzles me Jeremy Bamber is serving life and wonder what more do you want because I think he is innocent I want him to be released. Who are you trying to convince of his guilt yourself I guess as you will never influence the majority of forum members. I am wondering what you are hoping to achieve by your posts. Maybe you just like to debate ;D
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Adam I had been a member of this forum for nearly two years and had posted up 8200 posts I think I have done my share of research and know both sides of the coin. What puzzles me Jeremy Bamber is serving life and wonder what more do you want because I think he is innocent I want him to be released. Who are you trying to convince of his guilt yourself I guess as you will never influence the majority of forum members. I am wondering what you are hoping to achieve by your posts. Maybe you just like to debate ;D
It says you have only posted 147 times ?
I am interested in the case & know a bit about it. This seems like the busiest forum, although I knew it is pro Jeremy. So like to discuss it & learn new things.
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It says you have only postex 147 times ?
I am interested in the case & know a bit about. This seems like the busiest forum, although I knew it is pro Jeremy. So like to discuss it & learn new things.
Adam have you rested today? lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It says you have only postex 147 times ?
I am interested in the case & know a bit about it. This seems like the busiest forum, although I knew it is pro Jeremy. So like to discuss it & learn new things.
You have posted over 300 times. Yet she has been here longer than you. Go figure. ;)
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Adam I recently had to leave the forum for a short period due to personal reasons ( I was pregnant) and was not sure when I would be fit to come back so had to start from scratch but I can assure you I joined in april 2012 and if you read the forum properly you will have seen all the welcome backs I got ;D ;D I knew you like to debate and put your point of view over which is fair comment as you have as much right to post your views as I do mine ;D
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Adam I recently had to leave the forum for a short period due to personal reasons ( I was pregnant) and was not sure when I would be fit to come back so had to start from scratch but I can assure you I joined in april 2012 and if you read the forum properly you will have seen all the welcome backs I got ;D ;D I knew you like to debate and put your point of view over which is fair comment as you have as much right to post your views as I do mine ;D
Thank you. I have enjoyed posting & learnt a lot.
No one I know knows about or is really interested in the case.
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Adam have you rested today? lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Rested,Patti? ,,he's hardly stopped to draw breath. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I am back at work tomorrow.
But I'll be back !
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lookout you are so funny and make me laugh ;D ;D ;D ;D He is keen he came on about 8.30 this morning and never stopped. Bless his cotten socks.
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I am back at work tomorrow.
But I'll be back !
Good,,I hope so. We're not a bad crowd on here. There's always the Off Topic if you wish to say something other than about this case.
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Good,,I hope so. We're not a bad crowd on here. There's always the Off Topic if you wish to say something other than about this case.
No were not and the moths aren't that bad either ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam we will miss you ;D
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No were not and the moths aren't that bad either ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You're heading for a thick ear,Patti. >:( >:( >:( ;D ;D ;D
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The phone call doesn't make sense. It sounds ambiguous to me. What was it? "Everything is going well. Something is wrong at the farm". I think her hearing was a bit defective, don't you?
No it's just what Jeremy told her:at first boasting of the crime,then remembering Julie was on a shared line and he might be overheard,so reverting to his stock line. It was then as Julie returned to bed in her nightgown that she realized the whole thing was not a joke,that Southerners were capable of intrinsic evil just as every other person,and as she lay there turning events over in her mind she finally realized to her dread that all occupants of the White House had been slaughtered..
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You're heading for a thick ear,Patti. >:( >:( >:( ;D ;D ;D
LOL................My giggling pin wore out that day ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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steve uk why did she wait so long to tell the police then and people from the south or no different than us from the North only they talk more posh. ;D
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So knowing what JM allegedly knew about the " planned murders ",,she went back to bed after the phone-call ? I see.
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So many alarm bells go off right here, yet the nons refuse to look at this but with rose coloured glasses when it comes to miss Julie.
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So many alarm bells go off right here, yet the nons refuse to look at this but with rose coloured glasses when it comes to miss Julie.
I wonder why,Alias ? Because she certainly wasn't as pure as driven snow herself. As was proven.
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well lookout you would would'ent you she was in her nightie and stuck in London what could she do but go back to sleep.
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I wonder why,Alias ? Because she certainly wasn't as pure as driven snow herself. As was proven.
They have to. They need to believe her testimony, but whichever way you look at Julie, she comes out looking very bad.
If she is telling the truth (somewhat...), she was in on the whole thing. She slept with a man she knew was a murderer - for a month, until HE dumped her.
If she is lying about the whole thing, she helped put an innocent man behind bars.
In any case, she was a criminal in her own right.
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steve uk why did she wait so long to tell the police then and people from the south or no different than us from the North only they talk more posh. ;D
Hi susan:she was caught up in events,she needed to sound Jeremy out,the Head of Police Taff Jones had concurred it was four murders and a suicide and there was 21 year-old student teacher Julie no doubt feeling very small. She felt the guilt for both of them;it must have been a terrible ordeal for her not to end up in the same mental state Sheila had endured all those years..
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Hi susan:she was caught up in events,she needed to sound Jeremy out,the Head of Police Taff Jones had concurred it was four murders and a suicide and there was 21 year-old student teacher Julie no doubt feeling very small. She felt the guilt for both of them;it must have been a terrible ordeal for her not to end up in the same mental state Sheila had endured all those years..
Steve,,you speak as though JM was an innocent child. Whatever Jeremy did,,she did,without objection,and vice-versa. Both fond of the weed,,and if Julie had had any doubts about obtaining the cannabis,,she certainly didn't shout very loud then.
Whether any hard drugs were involved,I don't know. I only read about Sheilas' penchant for heroin at parties,,and of course her cigars,whereas Jeremy didn't smoke tobacco,only the odd spliff.
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That should be cocaine,as heroin wasn't as readily available as it is present day.
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They have to. They need to believe her testimony, but whichever way you look at Julie, she comes out looking very bad.
If she is telling the truth (somewhat...), she was in on the whole thing. She slept with a man she knew was a murderer - for a month, until HE dumped her.
If she is lying about the whole thing, she helped put an innocent man behind bars.
In any case, she was a criminal in her own right.
Nobody dumped anybody:Julie was far too dangerous to dump.An offer of a wine bar in the West End was mooted but Julie ultimately saw through this shallow person she had fallen in love with,and the love died there and then..
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That should be cocaine,as heroin wasn't as readily available as it is present day.
Yes, I don´t believe Heroine was a "party drug" back then as it is now.
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Grahame, your Post #732 on page 49 of this Topic
Regarding the Bamber Case Trial Judge, whom you colloquially refer to as "Ducky Drake.
His actual name is Sir (Reginald) Maurice Drake
Today I purchased a heavy tome (810 pages) published in 2010 at a retail cost of £30. It is not ex-lib and cost more than 1p.! That would be a steal for our tame Walter Mitty.
It is titled :- MI6, The History of the SECRET INTELIGENCE SERVICE 1909-1949, by Keith Jeffrey.
On page73 it refers to 'Ducky's' Father, Lt-Col Reginald Drake. This was about his war-time (1914-18) position as :-
Deputy Head of SIS GHQ. The abbreviation for Adam's benefit, is General Head Quarters. A VBW (VIP) in the illustrious Secret (Shhh) Service OrganiZation.
I can hear Old Hearters saying:- "What's this got to do with the price of fish"? Just sayin'.
Lookout, where does this ole chestnut derive from ?
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Which ole chestnut is that,Campion ?
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What has that got to do with the price of fish? As they used to say in Pleshey and on the old Crab and Winkle Light Railway line!
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What has that got to do with the price of fish? As they used to say in Pleshey and on the old Crab and Winkle Light Railway line!
Oh,,I see. You remind me very much of an uncle of mine,Campion. He's gone now of course,,but you certainly come a close second when it comes to your style of posts.
This uncle used to do what Jeremy's doing,and that's Braille,,when he wasn't marching with the Aldermaston crew,or playing violin at the Liverpool Philharmonic.
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Nobody dumped anybody:Julie was far too dangerous to dump.An offer of a wine bar in the West End was mooted but Julie ultimately saw through this shallow person she had fallen in love with,and the love died there and then..
Mugfords statement says she did not like Brett always being around. At one stage she did not want to meet Jeremy as Brett was there. Jeremy pleaded with Mugford & they met. Mugford did not want to attend the funerals. Again Jeremy pleaded with her to go.
Mugford did say she put a pillow over Jeremys head, then took it off. She also got physical after she heard Jeremy asking another woman out while she was present. Can't say I blame her.
As the relationship deteriated further Mugford threatened to go to the police. Jeremy said they would never believe her & he was 'watertight'.
Mugford was an attractive young woman. She would have got over Jeremy. Approaching the police, lying to them & then lying to the courts to put an innocent man in jail is too extreme a reaction to a relationship breakdown. Especially as the punishment for perjury is so severe. I do not believe Mugford was strong, vindictive or clever enough to have got through the police interviews & court cross examination without cracking. Unless she was telling the truth.
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steve Jeremy made it obvious he preferred the company of another young lady other than Julie that is dumping in my eyes. She was never in love with him just saw an easy life and she loved to control. Suppose Jeremy thought it was time to go when she had tried to smoother him and threw soap at his head in the supermarket she souded quite a violent woman and a woman like that scorned is very dangerous Jeremy in his innocence did not see this.
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Nobody dumped anybody:Julie was far too dangerous to dump.An offer of a wine bar in the West End was mooted but Julie ultimately saw through this shallow person she had fallen in love with,and the love died there and then..
Because he cheated on her and there was a big row between them. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Don't try and gloss over it Steve. He dumped her for sure.
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Grahame, your Post #732 on page 49 of this Topic
Regarding the Bamber Case Trial Judge, whom you colloquially refer to as "Ducky Drake.
His actual name is Sir (Reginald) Maurice Drake
Today I purchased a heavy tome (810 pages) published in 2010 at a retail cost of £30. It is not ex-lib and cost more than 1p.! That would be a steal for our tame Walter Mitty.
It is titled :- MI6, The History of the SECRET INTELIGENCE SERVICE 1909-1949, by Keith Jeffrey.
On page73 it refers to 'Ducky's' Father, Lt-Col Reginald Drake. This was about his war-time (1914-18) position as :-
Deputy Head of SIS GHQ. The abbreviation for Adam's benefit, is General Head Quarters. A VBW (VIP) in the illustrious Secret (Shhh) Service OrganiZation.
I can hear Old Hearters saying:- "What's this got to do with the price of fish"? Just sayin'.
Lookout, where does this ole chestnut derive from ?
Very interesting Campion. N ow I know why you are a great detective. Brilliant find.
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Morning Grahame Julie turn down the offer of a wine bar in the West End NEVER steve is deluding himself if he believes this ;D ;D ;D
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Grahame campion is so clever too clever for me at times as I don't understand a word he is saying but I know it will be accurate. He is so funny as well makes me laugh ;D
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Mugfords statement says she did not like Brett always being around. At one stage she did not want to meet Jeremy as Brett was there. Jeremy pleaded with Mugford & they met. Mugford did not want to attend the funerals. Again Jeremy pleaded with her to go.
Mugford did say she put a pillow over Jeremys head, then took it off. She also got physical after she heard Jeremy asking another woman out while she was present. Can't say I blame her.
As the relationship deteriated further Mugford threatened to go to the police. Jeremy said they would never believe her & he was 'watertight'.
Mugford was an attractive young woman. She would have got over Jeremy. Approaching the police, lying to them & then lying to the courts to put an innocent man in jail is too extreme a reaction to a relationship breakdown. Especially as the punishment for perjury is so severe. I do not believe Mugford was strong, vindictive or clever enough to have got through the police interviews & court cross examination without cracking. Unless she was telling the truth.
That "woman" was her best friend. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Certainly a biased witness if ever there was one. Because of her rocky relationship with her ex boyfriend should have made her an unreliable witness and the prosecution should never have put her on the stand. Certainly her testimony should have been thrown out of court. It appears to me that most of the prosecution witnesses had a bone to pick with Jeremy and therefore were biased against him.
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Ha Ha Adam you are a very bad judge of character if you think that about Julie have you forgot about her criminal activities which were quite conveniently forgotten and the deal for the £25.000 that would have bought you loads of Designer suits ;D ;D ;D
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Ha Ha Adam you are a very bad judge of character if you think that about Julie have you forgot about her criminal activities which were quite conveniently forgotten and the deal for the £25.000 that would have bought you loads of Designer suits ;D ;D ;D
He is obviously blinded by a woman's charm. He believes her to be a sweet innocent little girl who has no common sense of her own and so was carried away blindly by Jeremy's charms.
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Grahame Adam thinks nothing of the sort he just wants to blacken Jeremy in anyway he can and instead of facing upto what Julie is he posts up rubbish about her he does not believe that at all.
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Mugford went to the police. The first thing she confessed to was the caravan burglary.
I appreciate supporters have to believe Mugford is lying. Otherwise Jeremy is automatically guilty. I just find it hard to believe she would do all this due to apparently being jilted.
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Adam you do not know the female species very well as a woman scorned is dangerous have you not read cases where a wife has poured all her husbands wines down the drain another cut up his designer suits (what a shame she may have given you one) what about the recent case of the MP and the points his wife took for him for a driving offence until she became a woman scorned and look where that ended up.
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Ha Ha Adam you are a very bad judge of character if you think that about Julie have you forgot about her criminal activities which were quite conveniently forgotten and the deal for the £25.000 that would have bought you loads of Designer suits ;D ;D ;D
The NOTW would have approched her. She had to speak to the press as it was a high profile case. They would never have left her alone. If they want to pay her, why not take the money offer ?
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Adam you do not know the female species very well as a woman scorned is dangerous have you not read cases where a wife has poured all her husbands wines down the drain another cut up his designer suits (what a shame she may have given you one) what about the recent case of the MP and the points his wife took for him for a driving offence until she became a woman scorned and look where that ended up.
Good point. Yes it does happen or rare occasions. It was proved the MP's wife was telling the truth. Although she did so after the crime. Similar to Mugford ?
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Ha but Adam was the deal with NOTW done before or after the Trial I suspect before and were the Jury aware of this deal and you do realise she would not have got one penny had Jeremy walked free and lets face it one more vote of not guilty and he would have done. Also all criminal charges against her were to be dropped in return for her to testify she had been quite a naughty little girl in her own right ;
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Grahame Adam thinks nothing of the sort he just wants to blacken Jeremy in anyway he can and instead of facing upto what Julie is he posts up rubbish about her he does not believe that at all.
My post about Julie is based on her WS. Jeremys interview transcripts do not refute what she said. How can they when there are over 30 'no comments' & 'don't knows'.
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Ha but Adam was the deal with NOTW done before or after the Trial I suspect before and were the Jury aware of this deal and you do realise she would not have got one penny had Jeremy walked free and lets face it one more vote of not guilty and he would have done. Also all criminal charges against her were to be dropped in return for her to testify she had been quite a naughty little girl in her own right ;
The NOTW would be experienced in knowing when she should sign.
Verbally, before conviction. Signing, after conviction.
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My post about Julie is based on her WS. Jeremys interview transcripts do not refute what she said. How can they when there are over 30 'no comments' & 'don't knows'.
Perhaps he was in competition with Julie and wanted to match her over 30 'pratice witness statements'? ;)
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Adam £25,000 a great incentive for testifying against the love of your life oh and I almost forgot getting criminal charges against you dropped thus enabling you to carry on and become a teacher.
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Adam £25,000 a great incentive for testifying against the love of your life oh and I almost forgot getting criminal charges against you dropped thus enabling you to carry on and become a teacher.
Was she thinking about money when she approached the police ? Doubtful. She was probably worried about being arrested herself for the caravan burglary & for not telling the police sooner about WHF.
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The NOTW would be experienced in knowing when she should sign.
Verbally, before conviction. Signing, after conviction.
However, she lied about the existence of a deal with any newspaper. The defence got wind of the deal with the NoW, which was made in advance of the trial. The defence counsel raised this in chambers with the judge and prosecution counsel. The judge instructed the prosecution to ask Julie Mugford about the matter. Her reply was that she had made no deal with a newspaper and had no intention of making a deal. That was a lie. The jury were therefore never made aware of the very significant cash incentive to Julie Mugford, payable only in the event of a conviction.
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However, she lied about the existence of a deal with any newspaper. The defence got wind of the deal with the NoW, which was made in advance of the trial. The defence counsel raised this in chambers with the judge and prosecution counsel. The judge instructed the prosecution to ask Julie Mugford about the matter. Her reply was that she had made no deal with a newspaper and had no intention of making a deal. That was a lie. The jury were therefore never made aware of the very significant cash incentive to Julie Mugford, payable only in the event of a conviction.
I did not know that.
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Now Adam did you get that from ngb a very experienced Barrister you would be wise to listen to him.
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Adam now you have learnt something and you will be Jeremy innocent quite soon I have seen it ;D
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Mugford went to the police. The first thing she confessed to was the caravan burglary.
I appreciate supporters have to believe Mugford is lying. Otherwise Jeremy is automatically guilty. I just find it hard to believe she would do all this due to apparently being jilted.
Julie Mugford did not go to the police. The police went to her, following contact made by Liz Rimington. She was arrested and held in custody for a period. She was in a very difficult and dangerous position. Effectively she was given a choice, and we know the choice she made.
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Adam got that ;D ;D ;D
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Julie Mugford did not go to the police. The police went to her, following contact made by Liz Rimington. She was arrested and held in custody for a period. She was in a very difficult and dangerous position. Effectively she was given a choice, and we know the choice she made.
I have read differently.
That is the problem with crimes so old. Everyone has read different things. Been told different things. Jeremy is going through millions of bits of paper, to try to find something, anything to get him released after 28 years.
Did a small woman in a nightie really fire off 26 shots, let Neville make two phone calls, brutally beat Neville. Re load twice & then shoot herself. Twice ?
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Adam how do you know she was wearing a nightie. What makes you think Jeremy has not been successful in his search through millions of documents ;) ;) ;) Watch this space ;D
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Now Adam did you get that from ngb a very experienced Barrister you would be wise to listen to him.
Yes I'm a very experience barrister as well. ;D.....................No I'm not...........I'm a caretaker. :(
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Adam how do you know she was wearing a nightie. What makes you think Jeremy has not been successful in his search through millions of documents ;) ;) ;) Watch this space ;D
The picture of her with a gun is in a nightie.
She did look very small in the picture. I have read she was anorexic. Is this correct ?
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I have read differently.
That is the problem with crimes so old. Everyone has read different things. Been told different things. Jeremy is going through millions of bits of paper, to try to find something, anything to get him released after 28 years.
Did a small woman in a nightie really fire off 26 shots, let Neville make two phone calls, brutally beat Neville. Re load twice & then shoot herself. Twice ?
Adam,,Sheila would not have had her nightie on when she was on the" shooting spree ".
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Grahame the world needs caretakers just like it needs Barristers. Have you seen my lovely Yorkshire Rose on my Avatar that Roch kindly did for me :)
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I have read differently.
That is the problem with crimes so old. Everyone has read different things. Been told different things. Jeremy is going through millions of bits of paper, to try to find something, anything to get him released after 28 years.
Did a small woman in a nightie really fire off 26 shots, let Neville make two phone calls, brutally beat Neville. Re load twice & then shoot herself. Twice ?
Adam ngb is at the forefront of this case and is in possession of actual legal document concerning the case. He doesn't rely on any books written by biased or unbiased authors.
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Grahame the world needs caretakers just like it needs Barristers. Have you seen my lovely Yorkshire Rose on my Avatar that Roch kindly did for me :)
Yes it is indeed the House of York. Beautiful it is. ;D
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Adam my view and is only my view Sheila was not wearing the nightie when she shot her family she had a shower and changed into the nightie which I suspect belonged to her Mother. I have never heard that Sheila was anorexic. was it in the book you read.
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Grahame thought the milk thistle had been shown off enough Patti thought it was a Yorkshire Rose anyway ;D ;D ;D and she is a Yorkshire gal.
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Adam my view and is only my view Sheila was not wearing the nightie when she shot her family she had a shower and changed into the nightie which I suspect belonged to her Mother. I have never heard that Sheila was anorexic. was it in the book you read.
You are giving me little snippets of you're scenario. You tease.
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Adam my view and is only my view Sheila was not wearing the nightie when she shot her family she had a shower and changed into the nightie which I suspect belonged to her Mother. I have never heard that Sheila was anorexic. was it in the book you read.
Sheila was not anorexic. Honestly the rubbish that get thrown around. ::)
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Adam I thought you would enjoy my scenario in wee snippets this way I can keep your interest and you will not get bored with my posts. ;)
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Adam I thought you would enjoy my scenario in wee snippets this way I can keep your interest and you will not get bored with my posts. ;)
Ok. Try to do it in order. Otherwise I will get confused.
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Adam you confused NEVER ;D
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Mugford went to the police. The first thing she confessed to was the caravan burglary.
I appreciate supporters have to believe Mugford is lying. Otherwise Jeremy is automatically guilty. I just find it hard to believe she would do all this due to apparently being jilted.
Personally I believe her main motive was to avoid prosecution for her crimes. She made a deal with the EP. Drug deaing, cheque fraud and burglary - not just petty crimes. + she saw the 25.000 dangling in front of her by a guilty verdict. She had quite a lot to gain, really!
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Adam my view and is only my view Sheila was not wearing the nightie when she shot her family she had a shower and changed into the nightie which I suspect belonged to her Mother. I have never heard that Sheila was anorexic. was it in the book you read.
So do you think she was moving around in the house and carrying this "cleaning" whilst the police were outside ? But that all the fatal shots had been completed between the time of the phone calls and the police arriving? The trouble is because we do not have the " original " police file I suppose we do not know if the police heard any shots at all ? ( the reason they did not go in to try and help those poor children)
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jansus what cleaning are you referring to the clothes she was wearing before she changed into the nightie. Two buckets of clothes were steeping in the kitchen we will never know what the clothes consisted of will we as they were destroyed.I don't know if the police heard shots I suspect they did not hear shots as a rifle is not very loud and at some stage a silencer would be fitted to the rifle IMO and would have been taken away from the scene by the police. Certainly not the silencer found in the cupboard later by the relatives. The police were well back from the building and quite sometime elapsed before they stormed the building as they waited for back up from armed officers.
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jansus what cleaning are you referring to the clothes she was wearing before she changed into the nightie. Two buckets of clothes were steeping in the kitchen we will never know what the clothes consisted of will we as they were destroyed.I don't know if the police heard shots I suspect they did not hear shots as a rifle is not very loud and at some stage a silencer would be fitted to the rifle IMO and would have been taken away from the scene by the police. Certainly not the silencer found in the cupboard later by the relatives. The police were well back from the building and quite sometime elapsed before they stormed the building as they waited for back up from armed officers.
I was just wondering that if she changed clothes she may have done some sort of "ritual cleaning " to herself at the same time? It was mentioned at one time that he shower head was found in a strange position. Also I was thinking if she was battling with Religious / voices etc type of episode that even washing her hands may have been symbolic.
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jansus not sure about all this ritual washing but it has been said but of course we are only speculating it is often said that this type of cleansing does occur in cases like this the shower head was I read hanging down off the clip at the top quite often females put it in this position to rinse their hair I do myself but always replace afterwards.
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Personally I believe her main motive was to avoid prosecution for her crimes. She made a deal with the EP. Drug deaing, cheque fraud and burglary - not just petty crimes. + she saw the 25.000 dangling in front of her by a guilty verdict. She had quite a lot to gain, really!
Certainly if she was charged with those crimes it would have meant an end to her career before she'd even started. So it was a big incentive for her not to have a criminal record and turn prosecution witness. In my opinion she should never have been let to take the stand simply for those reason alone. Let alone any deal with a newspaper.
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Grahame Julie could have been sent to prison for her criminal activities quite serious crimes not just like doing a bit of petty theft.
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The hoops the Defence must now jump through to show Sheila's guilt evince a feeling of desperation which has not been manifest since my time on this forum at least. We now have a girl whose last words to Auntie Pam betrayed no malevoence whatsoever but only her customary weariness as she prepared for bed in an environment where admittedly she did not feel at home,yet now we have Sheila deciding to kill all there and then and changing into her nightie after the slaughter for the only reason it suits the Defence's scenario so to do. It still does not explain why there is no blood spatter from the first shot in the kitchen(to humour the Defence for a moment)when she moves upstairs apparently out of view of Police at the scene.
The press deal has been discussed many times here but to recapitulate: Julie was hounded with reporters at her place of work and home and consulted a solicitor as how best to get rid of them. A deal was arranged whereby Julie would be left alone were she to agree to a deal which was to be signed after the trial,not before as has been alleged. A similar deal was available to Jeremy conditional on acquittal,along with Anji Greaves waiting in a suite at a Park Lane hotel with champagne in an ice bucket and a banner reading "Faith,Truth,Justice..Welcome Home Jeremy". Of course as it turned out Jeremy was heading not for the Hilton but Wormwood Scrubs,but the intention to profit out of the five murders was there. Of course as soon as the guilty verdict came through the Press pack dispersed along with Anji herself.
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Grahame Julie could have been sent to prison for her criminal activities quite serious crimes not just like doing a bit of petty theft.
Precisely. Can you see what has happened here? So much evidence was withheld, photographic and other stuff which was possibly in favour of Jeremy. Yet all circumstantial and prosecution evidence had been made to remain. Thus giving a lop-sided view of what really happened. Taff Jones' notebook could have contained evidence that has been written out of the case by the prosecution lawyers and Essex police? Whatever has happened to it, it still means that we do not have the whole story.
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Quite a turnaround. Another nifty move on the part of those in the know, the law unto themselves.
Do as I say not as I do.
Stick a uniform on anyone and watch them change !!
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The hoops the Defence must now jump through to show Sheila's guilt evince a feeling of desperation which has not been manifest since my time on this forum at least. We now have a girl whose last words to Auntie Pam betrayed no malevoence whatsoever but only her customary weariness as she prepared for bed in an environment which admittedly she did not feel at home,yet now we have Sheila deciding to kill all there and then and changing into her nightie after the slaughter for the only reason it suits the Defence's scenario so to do. It still does not explain why there is no blood spatter from the first shot in the kitchen(to humour the Defence for a moment)when she moves upstairs apparently out of view of Police at the scene.
The press deal has been discussed many times here but to recapitulate: Julie was hounded with reporters at her place of work and home and consulted a solicitor as how best to get rid of them. A deal was arranged whereby Julie would be left alone were she to agree to a deal which was to be signed after the trial,not before as has been alleged. A similar deal was available to Jeremy conditional on acquittal,along with Anji Greaves waiting in a suite at a Park Lane hotel with champagne in an ice bucket and a banner reading "Faith,Truth,Justice..Welcome Home Jeremy". Of course as it turned out Jeremy was heading not for the Hilton but Wormwood Scrubs,but the intention to profit out of the five murders was there. Of course as soon as the guilty verdict came through the Press pack dispersed along with Anji herself.
You are correct on that one Steve. They are made to jump through so many hoops because of the amount of evidence that has been withheld and/or destroyed by Essex police.
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No comment.
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She must have been incredibly thick to pose for a picture like that Alias. What on earth has posing for a sexy picture to do with sleeping with a beast? ;D
"I was under his spell" said Julie. LOL ;D ;D
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She must have been incredibly thick to pose for a picture like that Alias. What on earth has posing for a sexy picture to do with sleeping with a beast? ;D
"I was under his spell" said Julie. LOL ;D ;D
Under his body more like !
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She must have been incredibly thick to pose for a picture like that Alias. What on earth has posing for a sexy picture to do with sleeping with a beast? ;D
"I was under his spell" said Julie. LOL ;D ;D
There was clearly something wrong with her - seriously wrong!
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Those who believe her testimony must have the brains of a bird? That article appeared in the NOTW immediately after the guilty verdict. And she said that not only that she didn't make a deal with any newspaper when asked by the prosecution counsel. But had no intention of doing so. That should have been grounds for an appeal right there. Why was the verdict not challenged there and then. She should have been charged with perjury.
Remember Jeremy was found guilty on her testimony which she made on oath.
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There was clearly something wrong with her - seriously wrong!
Yes,,I'd say so too,Alias. Radically wrong.
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. . . "Bobby Boutflower" by Mary Boutflour!, of which there is only one vol. available world-wide, . . . No Library in this country has this particular biography for ref or loan.
The British Library seems to have it.
. . . they disapproved of their daughters' lifestyle. Underage sex which is classed as statutory rape, . . .
How is "classed as statutory rape" relevant? It's presumably not the girl who commits that crime.
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Morning Grahame
I found so much of Julie's behaviour strange to say the least. She said Jeremy had been planning the murders for about a year yet when Jeremy phoned her and said something wrong at the farm she was very dissmissive and told him to go back to bed like she did. Now had Jeremy told her he was planning to murder his family alarm bells would have starting ringing in her head so loud she could not have gone back to sleep. She shared Jeremy's bed then went and identified the little twins in the mortuary and when she came out she needed a fag and asked rather macabre questions. Then she carried on as normal sleeping with this monster and escorting him everywhere he very kindly gave her a cheque for £300/400 towards her holiday to Malta once the cheque had been cleared she started to talk because by this time Jeremy had chosen another over her. I am not saying his behaviour was impeccable it was not but this did not make him a murderer. Julie should have been charged for her own misdemeanours we all know she committed them or she should have been charged as an accessory to murder. But to actually be rewarded for her testimony to the tune of £25.000 and have criminal charges against her dropped is unbelievable and this type of action brings the Criminal Justice System into disrepute big time infact the handling of this own case of WHF murders has done this by the actions of EP.
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Morning lookout
Julie was an attention seeking control freak. When Jeremy made it obvious he no longer wished a relationship with her she behaved like a spoilt child and her behaviour developed into a mode of self preservation and greed. The £25.000 would have come in useful for her flat in London. Hope she can sleep at nights knowing she was partly responsible for sending an innocent young man to prison for a crime he did not commit. Notice she is not too keen now on giving press interviews wonder why. Inspite of her behaviour I have never read where Jeremy has said one wrong word about her he must be a very forgiving person.
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Morning lookout
Julie was an attention seeking control freak. When Jeremy made it obvious he no longer wished a relationship with her she behaved like a spoilt child and her behaviour developed into a mode of self preservation and greed. The £25.000 would have come in useful for her flat in London. Hope she can sleep at nights knowing she was partly responsible for sending an innocent young man to prison for a crime he did not commit. Notice she is not too keen now on giving press interviews wonder why. Inspite of her behaviour I have never read where Jeremy has said one wrong word about her he must be a very forgiving person.
Morning Susan.
May I first of all say that you've been doing some really good posts which I've enjoyed reading.
No wonder Jeremy dropped JM,,she was a madam and probably led Jeremy a dogs life at times. I saw nothing wrong in Jeremy wanting to spread his wings,as a young man,he wasn't tied in any way and he was under no obligation to her. I very much doubt that things would have fared very well if Jeremy had married JM.
If JM has any sort of a conscience over this,she too would have been deep in thought suffering her own sentence of guilt at what she'd caused. Deep down, I would not have enjoyed life the same at all,as in quieter moments,I'd be reflecting on what I could have done to save Jeremy from spending a lifetime in prison,,knowing I could have prevented it,,but she chose money over a life.
I personally think that the " deal " she had,had been well discussed and that's what spurred her on,,especially on her visit to the mortuary,as with money in mind,you can face anything.
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lookout thank you for your kind words much appreciated. I enjoyed your posts especially about the White Smoke thought that was so so funny. Julie as I see her was a hard calculating scheming young womanwho had her siights set on becoming the next Mrs Bamber at WHF she would have loved that role. When she knew that was not to be she went down another road with no thought for anyone other than herself even to pose outside the Court like she did any normal human being would have been so sad at the events that had brought this Court case about 5 people lost their lives and yet all she could think of was her picture in the paper and having the attention and thinking of her £25.000 what a hard individual she must be.
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Susan,,she was driven by greed and had that terrible trait called being possessive,which in turn causes jealousy.What a good job Jeremy realised this before the relationship went any further,the sign being " attempted " suffocation with a pillow. What a harridan.
For all the wrong these people have done against Jeremy,,he still maintains dignity and diplomacy in never flying off the handle with anger,at the thought,because anyone else would be forever seething.He's probably realised that negativity eats at your mind and body,so has chosen to remain fit and sound of mind,which takes some doing.
Nobody,but nobody " fights the good fight " for this length of time,and I hope that changes in the legal aid system and also the suppression of information doesn't mar his chances of an appeal leading to freedom and exoneration.
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lookout jeremy's innocence was the cause of his downfall i.e dumping Julie and handing over the keys to the relatives. Had Jeremy been guilty of this horrendous crime and shared his intentions with Julie and left a silencer with blood on it in the gun cupboard he would never have dumped Julie or handed the keys over to anyone.
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lookout jeremy's innocence was the cause of his downfall i.e dumping Julie and handing over the keys to the relatives. Had Jeremy been guilty of this horrendous crime and shared his intentions with Julie and left a silencer with blood on it in the gun cupboard he would never have dumped Julie or handed the keys over to anyone.
Susan,,he'd have hung on to those keys to return and trace his steps if he'd had committed the crime. After all it was night-time and anything could have been forgotten/misplaced. Artificial lighting isn't like daylight when you're up to no good.
Same old story though,Susan,,people might be academics/public school and all that, but common sense isn't always their strongest point,,and Jeremy was behind the door when that was dished out. He hadn't developed the knack of " seeing through " people,especially those who were out to damage him. Neville would have eventually taught him I'm sure.
I would go as far as to say that there isn't a bad bone in Jeremys' body,and the sooner the powers that be see this,the better for Jeremy.
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lookout I think to a certain extent Jeremy did have a sheltered upbringing he was kept away from local children had he mixed with kids from different backgrouds he may have learnt not to be as trusting and accepting things at face value he could see no wrong in people. He was afterall just a boy who had not had to grow up as some at that age had he had everything provided for him but did work hard on the farm and would have made a first class farmer and Ralph knew that. Now Julie in that department had everything that Jeremy lacked she saw opportunities and took them she was all out to make a better life for herself and had her eye on being the next Mrs. Bamber. I think maybe Jeremy felt controlled and after the murders he needed to break free of her and do his own thing but she was not going to allow that was she.
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lookout I think to a certain extent Jeremy did have a sheltered upbringing he was kept away from local children had he mixed with kids from different backgrouds he may have learnt not to be as trusting and accepting things at face value he could see no wrong in people. He was afterall just a boy who had not had to grow up as some at that age had he had everything provided for him but did work hard on the farm and would have made a first class farmer and Ralph knew that. Now Julie in that department had everything that Jeremy lacked she saw opportunities and took them she was all out to make a better life for herself and had her eye on being the next Mrs. Bamber. I think maybe Jeremy felt controlled and after the murders he needed to break free of her and do his own thing but she was not going to allow that was she.
He was sheltered and shielded,Susan. I can remember years ago we had a family friend who brother and I grew up with. He'd had a more or less sheltered life,and bigger and older than us,was still a kid at heart who liked nothing better than playing tricks and pranks on us all the time. His favourite was Halloween,when he told mum to tell us kids he wasn't able to come. We were really disappointed as it wouldn't be the same without him. Anyway,because he was full of fun and surprises,,he leapt out at us from under coats in the hall,,and had this awful mask on. I screamed of course because he frightened me to death,,and he was bent double,laughing. He was like this until he went to Germany after he'd joined the Army in the 50's. This is how I imagine Jeremy to have been. Full of fun and mischief. Still a big kid.
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lookout Again I agree with you Jeremy was just a kid at heart and never really grew up. Think after the horrendous murders of his entire family he maybe felt overwhelmed by it all as he knew he was out on his own the farm to run and think at first he did not face upto the situation and went a little wild with his friends he was just running away from his responsibilties but would have dealt with things given time. :(
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The hoops the Defence must now jump through to show Sheila's guilt evince a feeling of desperation which has not been manifest since my time on this forum at least. We now have a girl whose last words to Auntie Pam betrayed no malevoence whatsoever but only her customary weariness as she prepared for bed in an environment where admittedly she did not feel at home,yet now we have Sheila deciding to kill all there and then and changing into her nightie after the slaughter for the only reason it suits the Defence's scenario so to do. It still does not explain why there is no blood spatter from the first shot in the kitchen(to humour the Defence for a moment)when she moves upstairs apparently out of view of Police at the scene.
The press deal has been discussed many times here but to recapitulate: Julie was hounded with reporters at her place of work and home and consulted a solicitor as how best to get rid of them. A deal was arranged whereby Julie would be left alone were she to agree to a deal which was to be signed after the trial,not before as has been alleged. A similar deal was available to Jeremy conditional on acquittal,along with Anji Greaves waiting in a suite at a Park Lane hotel with champagne in an ice bucket and a banner reading "Faith,Truth,Justice..Welcome Home Jeremy". Of course as it turned out Jeremy was heading not for the Hilton but Wormwood Scrubs,but the intention to profit out of the five murders was there. Of course as soon as the guilty verdict came through the Press pack dispersed along with Anji herself.
How do you know?
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lookout Again I agree with you Jeremy was just a kid at heart and never really grew up. Think after the horrendous murders of his entire family he maybe felt overwhelmed by it all as he knew he was out on his own the farm to run and think at first he did not face upto the situation and went a little wild with his friends he was just running away from his responsibilties but would have dealt with things given time. :(
Susan,,he'd have been in shock,,but given his stoical background,stiff upper lip and all that,,he'd have learned to curb his emotions to a certain extent. He didn't even have time to grieve,so hadn't really taken in the enormity of what had happened. I feel terribly sorry for him. There was all the arranging to be done with everything,,with very little assistance I'd bet,,so in actual fact he'd have been grateful for having a friend such as Brett Collins to see him through his darkest time.
It was a lot to take in when you think about it,,on such young shoulders,,and the more I think of " the others ",the more I get annoyed at the scheming that must have gone on.
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lookout the fact Jeremy had no family to help him with all the arrangements would have made the situation much harder it was such an horrific event at WHF and Jeremy would not be able to absorb the enormity of what had happened and the fact he was left to sort everything out with no help from anyone. Think he did appreciate help from Brett Collins Julie would not have been any help as she wanted to control him. Wonder if Jeremy and Brett kept in touch after poor Jeremy was jailed.
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lookout the fact Jeremy had no family to help him with all the arrangements would have made the situation much harder it was such an horrific event at WHF and Jeremy would not be able to absorb the enormity of what had happened and the fact he was left to sort everything out with no help from anyone. Think he did appreciate help from Brett Collins Julie would not have been any help as she wanted to control him. Wonder if Jeremy and Brett kept in touch after poor Jeremy was jailed.
I've often wondered that too. Does anyone know what happened to him afterwards, or where he is now?
Perhaps as he was the main instigator of trying to sell photos of Sheila (or did all the talking apparently), he decided to keep a very low profile as this has been used since to vilify Jeremy. Yet I believe he was one of the defendants at the court, who was NOT called to give evidence/character reference for Jeremy.
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Hello HMEssex I wondered often what happened to Brett. I did read he was not called as a character witness as it was thought it would not look good for Jeremy due to Brett's sexual preference. Also Jeremy's ex girlfriend was a character witness not called as she was married with two children and way back then it was not accepted in Society for a guy to live with a married woman. Maybe they got it wrong and should have called these people.
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I've often wondered that too. Does anyone know what happened to him afterwards, or where he is now?
Perhaps as he was the main instigator of trying to sell photos of Sheila (or did all the talking apparently), he decided to keep a very low profile as this has been used since to vilify Jeremy. Yet I believe he was one of the defendants at the court, who was NOT called to give evidence/character reference for Jeremy.
Brett Collins lives in New Zealand,and did have a business of sorts in car sales I think. Patti knows more.
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Hello lookout just had a thought last time Mason Doyle was on the forum he said his research had taken him to New Zealand. I wonder who he went to see!!! have to wait for the book the suspense is killing me ;D ;D ;D
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There are striking similarities in both cases as regards denial. Whether or not Hanratty was actually a clinical psychopath will probably never be known, what we do know is that the DNA found at the crime scene matched his, and therefore there is a extremely high probability that Hanratty is a murderer and a rapist. I believe the rape may be the cause of Hanratty's reluctance to admit to the crime, rather than the murder. Who knows?
Bamber I believe, denies it persistently for several reasons. First and foremost he is aware that an admission of any sort would, almost certainly condemn him to a whole life tariff with virtually no hope of a retrial, Denial, however, affords Bamber the possibility - at least in theory - that his case may be referred to the Court of Appeal and he could be released, even on a technicality.
Secondly, Bamber's overbearing arrogance. This well-documented and clearly obnoxious side to Bamber's personality, I believe played and continues to play a huge part in his reluctance to admit that he is responsible for this heinous crime. Put simply, he simply cannot admit to himself and others that he is a cowardly murderer who ambushed 5 defenseless people one man , two women and two children.
Lastly I believe that Bamber has portrayed himself - as narcissistic psychopaths often do - in the role of the victim. In was not him who committed the murders but his sister. Everyone else is lying. His relatives are trying to frame him. The police are out to get him. Anyone but him. This is one of the key traits of a psychopath - Denial and then shifting the blame. Psychopaths are adept at this.
However, there is one last aspect to why I think Bamber persistently denies responsibility and readers may find this somewhat strange; Bamber has such total contempt for those people that he so brutally murdered, that he feels they are unworthy of his imprisonment for their murder. He feels it is highly unjust that a man such as himself should spend any time at all incarcerated just because of them. In effect Bamber may feel a sense of injustice not for the fact that he is serving time for murder, but because the people that he murdered are unworthy of the time he is serving. They were nothing to him and therefore any punishment thats is administered should follow suit. To any right-thinking individual it sounds extremely strange. However, to a narcissistic psychopath this type of thinking makes perfect sense.
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The hoops the Defence must now jump through to show Sheila's guilt evince a feeling of desperation which has not been manifest since my time on this forum at least. We now have a girl whose last words to Auntie Pam betrayed no malevoence whatsoever but only her customary weariness as she prepared for bed in an environment where admittedly she did not feel at home,yet now we have Sheila deciding to kill all there and then and changing into her nightie after the slaughter for the only reason it suits the Defence's scenario so to do. It still does not explain why there is no blood spatter from the first shot in the kitchen(to humour the Defence for a moment)when she moves upstairs apparently out of view of Police at the scene.
The press deal has been discussed many times here but to recapitulate: Julie was hounded with reporters at her place of work and home and consulted a solicitor as how best to get rid of them. A deal was arranged whereby Julie would be left alone were she to agree to a deal which was to be signed after the trial,not before as has been alleged. A similar deal was available to Jeremy conditional on acquittal,along with Anji Greaves waiting in a suite at a Park Lane hotel with champagne in an ice bucket and a banner reading "Faith,Truth,Justice..Welcome Home Jeremy". Of course as it turned out Jeremy was heading not for the Hilton but Wormwood Scrubs,but the intention to profit out of the five murders was there. Of course as soon as the guilty verdict came through the Press pack dispersed along with Anji herself.
This cannot be true. Because when she was asked before the trial if she had made a deal with any newspaper she replied that she had not and did not intend making any deal. One week after the trial. In fact in next Sunday's NOTW the article appeared. Not only that but I believe in the first appeal she was again asked when the deal was made, she replied that she could not remember. I cannot believe that such a deal could be struck and signed for so soon after the trial complete with sexy pictures. I think she was a liar.
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Interesting post above, not written by me.
What is everyones views ?
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There are striking similarities in both cases as regards denial. Whether or not Hanratty was actually a clinical psychopath will probably never be known, what we do know is that the DNA found at the crime scene matched his, and therefore there is a extremely high probability that Hanratty is a murderer and a rapist. I believe the rape may be the cause of Hanratty's reluctance to admit to the crime, rather than the murder. Who knows?
Bamber I believe, denies it persistently for several reasons. First and foremost he is aware that an admission of any sort would, almost certainly condemn him to a whole life tariff with virtually no hope of a retrial, Denial, however, affords Bamber the possibility - at least in theory - that his case may be referred to the Court of Appeal and he could be released, even on a technicality.
Secondly, Bamber's overbearing arrogance. This well-documented and clearly obnoxious side to Bamber's personality, I believe played and continues to play a huge part in his reluctance to admit that he is responsible for this heinous crime. Put simply, he simply cannot admit to himself and others that he is a cowardly murderer who ambushed 5 defenseless people one man , two women and two children.
Lastly I believe that Bamber has portrayed himself - as narcissistic psychopaths often do - in the role of the victim. In was not him who committed the murders but his sister. Everyone else is lying. His relatives are trying to frame him. The police are out to get him. Anyone but him. This is one of the key traits of a psychopath - Denial and then shifting the blame. Psychopaths are adept at this.
However, there is one last aspect to why I think Bamber persistently denies responsibility and readers may find this somewhat strange; Bamber has such total contempt for those people that he so brutally murdered, that he feels they are unworthy of his imprisonment for their murder. He feels it is highly unjust that a man such as himself should spend any time at all incarcerated just because of them. In effect Bamber may feel a sense of injustice not for the fact that he is serving time for murder, but because the people that he murdered are unworthy of the time he is serving. They were nothing to him and therefore any punishment thats is administered should follow suit. To any right-thinking individual it sounds extremely strange. However, to a narcissistic psychopath this type of thinking makes perfect sense.
On the other hand it may be the actions of an innocent man who has been incarcerated unjustly for 28 years?
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A lot of people were taken in by Hanratty. Even when the DNA matched his people said the DNA was contaminated. However the only DNA found was Hanratty's.
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A lot of people were taken in by Hanratty. Even when the DNA matched his people said the DNA was contaminated. However the only DNA found was Hanratty's.
Wasn't this back in the 60's? I didn't think that DNA testing was in operation til the late 80's?
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Hello Adam no views really on the post not written by you can see nothing at all to compare with Jeremy Bamber. Sorry.
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Interesting post above, not written by me.
What is everyones views ?
What post wasn't written by you?
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The last paragraph is interesting.
It is no secret that Bamber hated his family. He also resented Sheila's subsidised living in London, together with the twins who were set to inherited as much as Bamber. Perhaps more, Mary Mugford testified that Bamber said June was thinking about changing her wills.
Neville & June were old, June insane. Sheila was a nutter. Why should these people stop me getting what I want ? Now it is a case of why should these inferior people be keeping me jail ?
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What post wasn't written by you?
Think the post being referred to was Steve's :)
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Grahame you are right as usual just Googled it and it was in the eighties. Sorry Adam.
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Wasn't this back in the 60's? I didn't think that DNA testing was in operation til the late 80's?
They kept some of the crime scene evidence. Then dug up the body when DNA testing became possible.
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Think the post being referred to was Steve's :)
Say no more! ;)
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What post wasn't written by you?
Previous page.
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Adam now I know why you want me to post up my scenario of the murders carried out at WHF by Sheila so you can copy it.Ha Ha
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There are striking similarities in both cases as regards denial. Whether or not Hanratty was actually a clinical psychopath will probably never be known, what we do know is that the DNA found at the crime scene matched his, and therefore there is a extremely high probability that Hanratty is a murderer and a rapist. I believe the rape may be the cause of Hanratty's reluctance to admit to the crime, rather than the murder. Who knows?
Bamber I believe, denies it persistently for several reasons. First and foremost he is aware that an admission of any sort would, almost certainly condemn him to a whole life tariff with virtually no hope of a retrial, Denial, however, affords Bamber the possibility - at least in theory - that his case may be referred to the Court of Appeal and he could be released, even on a technicality.
Secondly, Bamber's overbearing arrogance. This well-documented and clearly obnoxious side to Bamber's personality, I believe played and continues to play a huge part in his reluctance to admit that he is responsible for this heinous crime. Put simply, he simply cannot admit to himself and others that he is a cowardly murderer who ambushed 5 defenseless people one man , two women and two children.
Lastly I believe that Bamber has portrayed himself - as narcissistic psychopaths often do - in the role of the victim. In was not him who committed the murders but his sister. Everyone else is lying. His relatives are trying to frame him. The police are out to get him. Anyone but him. This is one of the key traits of a psychopath - Denial and then shifting the blame. Psychopaths are adept at this.
However, there is one last aspect to why I think Bamber persistently denies responsibility and readers may find this somewhat strange; Bamber has such total contempt for those people that he so brutally murdered, that he feels they are unworthy of his imprisonment for their murder. He feels it is highly unjust that a man such as himself should spend any time at all incarcerated just because of them. In effect Bamber may feel a sense of injustice not for the fact that he is serving time for murder, but because the people that he murdered are unworthy of the time he is serving. They were nothing to him and therefore any punishment thats is administered should follow suit. To any right-thinking individual it sounds extremely strange. However, to a narcissistic psychopath this type of thinking makes perfect sense.
This quote HMEssex.
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This cannot be true. Because when she was asked before the trial if she had made a deal with any newspaper she replied that she had not and did not intend making any deal. One week after the trial. In fact in next Sunday's NOTW the article appeared. Not only that but I believe in the first appeal she was again asked when the deal was made, she replied that she could not remember. I cannot believe that such a deal could be struck and signed for so soon after the trial complete with sexy pictures. I think she was a liar.
She is/was a liar!
Facts speak for themselves!
Liar, Liar, pants on fire ;D ;D
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Adam I don't think that paragraph was interesting think it is just speculation by steve uk which he is very good at. June and Ralph Bamber were not old and who said June was going to change her will Julie's Mother where did she get this information from Julie of course. So you think Jeremy is protesting his innocence because he thinks we are inferior to him. You need to get back on track with your research this stuff will take you nowhere, ;D
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Not sure what the defintion of a psycopath is.
Is it someone who continually murders ? If it is then Jeremy is not one.
If Jeremy did commit the crime, it was simply for money, staus & power. Things he did not have but craved. The five people were in the way & removable in a way where he could avoid blame. The fact that he did not like or respect these people made it easier.
Once he had what he wanted, there would be no need or urge for any more murders.
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This quote HMEssex.
It's best to source a quote, so we know where you are coming from, either from this forum or elsewhere.
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HMEssex Ha Ha Ha ;D ;D ;D ;D Think they may have been if she had a liaison with a certain Mr. Plod ;D What a thought ;D ;D ;D
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Not sure what the defintion of a psycopath is.
Is it someone who continually murders ? If it is then Jeremy is not one.
If Jeremy did commit the crime, it was simply for money, staus & power. Things he did not have but craved. The five people were in the way & removable in a way where he could avoid blame. The fact that he did not like or respect these people made it easier.
Once he had what he wanted, there would be no need or urge for any more murders.
Psychopathy is a personality disorder and as such is incurable. Whether caused by nature or nurture, the argument goes on and the jury is still out.
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Adam I don't think that paragraph was interesting think it is just speculation by steve uk which he is very good at. June and Ralph Bamber were not old and who said June was going to change her will Julie's Mother where did she get this information from Julie of course. So you think Jeremy is protesting his innocence because he thinks we are inferior to him. You need to get back on track with your research this stuff will take you nowhere, ;D
Mary Mugford told the court under oath that Jeremy told her.
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Mary Mugford told the court under oath that Jeremy told her.
SO?!!!!!!!
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Adam think Jeremy was quite well off for a guy of 24. Own house, car shares in caravan park he would have some say on the running of the farm and Ralph had bought a small farm for him. His salary would be all his as he had no bills to pay at all think he was well satisfied with his lot.
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Not sure what the defintion of a psycopath is.
Is it someone who continually murders ? If it is then Jeremy is not one.
If Jeremy did commit the crime, it was simply for money, staus & power. Things he did not have but craved. The five people were in the way & removable in a way where he could avoid blame. The fact that he did not like or respect these people made it easier.
Once he had what he wanted, there would be no need or urge for any more murders.
Jeremy has been tested 20-odd times, and he is NOT a psychopath. He also PASSED a lie detector test. Now if he had failed, everyone would be jumping on that fact to say he was guilty.
He had everything, home, secure future running farm, shares in Osea camping site etc. Nobody was in HIS way. Or so he thought.
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Exactly april SO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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They were both 61. In the 1980's people were living shorter lives.
However it is possible they could have lived another 20 years. Eating away at any potential inheritance. Sheila & the twins were not going anywhere but would have inherited as much as Jeremy. Despite never putting in 14 hour shifts on the farm
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Adam are you aware that Grannie Speakman was a very wealthy lady and old and fragile and Jeremy would have inherited quite a nice sum of money from her. Why risk going to prison he had money coming his way,
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Plus it would have been easier to have " got rid of one elderly and frail " old lady,than five people. Jeremy loved his grannie too,so nobody would have suspected anything because of her poor health too.
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Adam are you listening loud and clear ;D
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Adam think Jeremy was quite well off for a guy of 24. Own house, car shares in caravan park he would have some say on the running of the farm and Ralph had bought a small farm for him. His salary would be all his as he had no bills to pay at all think he was well satisfied with his lot.
He was. But still had to work long days at the farm, for a labourer's wage. Perhaps for another 15 years. Something he hated doing. Even then he would he have to share any will with Sheila & the twins. Maybe get even less than the twins if June amended her will.
Thought he had to pay his bills but had free petrol.
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Jeremy has been tested 20-odd times, and he is NOT a psychopath. He also PASSED a lie detector test. Now if he had failed, everyone would be jumping on that fact to say he was guilty.
He had everything, home, secure future running farm, shares in Osea camping site etc. Nobody was in HIS way. Or so he thought.
Exactly. I wonder why these people will not believe the obvious? Instead go and make up silly senarios and project their own fantasies onto him.
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Jeremy was earning £170 a week which was a fortune back then. A house funded by his father,,so why did Jeremy want more.? He knew he was well off,plus his old grannie died the following year,so he wouldn't have had to have waited that long for a boost to his savings.I think he had a couple of thousand in the bank anyway.
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Jeremy was earning £170 a week which was a fortune back then. A house funded by his father,,so why did Jeremy want more.? He knew he was well off,plus his old grannie died the following year,so he wouldn't have had to have waited that long for a boost to his savings.I think he had a couple of thousand in the bank anyway.
Absobloodylootly- but I think there were others (not his sister) that weren't too happy about that
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Morning Adam
you totally amaze me. How do you know Jeremy hated working on the farm you are in a minority on that theory. I seem to think you made reference to Ralph Bambers age of 61 being old so how do you think he would have carried on running the farm for another 15 years he would have passed that on to Jeremy much sooner. You are obsessed with this money. Plenty to go round Ralph Bambers assets would increase in 15 years not decrease.
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Adam sorry I missed part of your post. Jeremy had no bills to pay other than groceries which would be minimal as he had meals at the farm. He would provide food etc for Julie remember when she threw a bar of soap at his head in the supermarket quite a lady of tantrums our Julie. ;D
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Morning Susan..Jeremy knew which side he bread was buttered on as regards taking an interest in farming. He'd have seen it as a job for life,,and he'd have been " master of all he surveyed ".
Taking into consideration that he was only 24 at the time,,and an immature one at that,,the tragedy would have shocked him to the core deep down,and he'd have found that he'd gained such a huge resposibility overnight.
Nobody made allowances for his state of mind at that time,,they were too busy looking at his every movement to try and pin-point the least little hint that he could be " putting on his mourning face,,pretending to cry,,looking to see how others reacted,etc etc " absolutely disgusting. After all their " surveillance of him,,none of that lot looked as though they were in mourning,,too busy concentrating on what Jeremy was doing.
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Morning lookout
It was absolutely ridiculous how certain people were watching Jeremy like a hawk and making notes how pathetic they should have being trying to help him not hinder him. I cannot imagine how people at a funeral can spend their time looking to see how certain people react we are all different and act differently in different circumstances. Poor Jeremy was just out of his depth methinks. :(
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Morning lookout
It was absolutely ridiculous how certain people were watching Jeremy like a hawk and making notes how pathetic they should have being trying to help him not hinder him. I cannot imagine how people at a funeral can spend their time looking to see how certain people react we are all different and act differently in different circumstances. Poor Jeremy was just out of his depth methinks. :(
Susan,,I just thought how disgusting they all were,,watching his every movement,,and the press present as well.I couldn't think of anything worse at a time like that. No compassion was shown towards a young man who'd lost his entire family. Then the nit-picking began----------------------
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lookout Jeremy could have done with you at his side to fight his corner he did not have anyone really certainly not Julie she was just interested in Julie maybe Brett helped him but he was wrong for having Brett has a friend he could not do anything right, :(
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I believe Brett Collins has loads of answers to questions so often debated on the forum. Wonder if he ever reads it? Would love to hear his side of/the true story. Have always believed he'still in touch with Jeremy.
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Maggie maybe you will in the near future.
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Maggie maybe you will in the near future.
I wonder if Jeremy would ever consider going to New Zealand after he's released ? He'd be better going there than staying in this country.
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lookout think when Jeremy is released he will stay where he knows. He has many friends now and local people are much more pro Bamber than they were. It will be really scary for him having to start again everything will be so strange but he will have so much support this time round not like when he was 24 years old.
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Absobloodylootly- but I think there were others (not his sister) that weren't too happy about that
I think we're touching on, what I believe, is the reality of "others" feelings towards a nonbiological, younger interloping family member being so favoured over those with more natural claims.
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So sorry to digress from this thread that the Topic title (the Bedroom Phone, Phonecalls and 'Neville'.) has been veered from, but has any Member( apart from 'Hawkeye' Grahame),noticed that the Number of Days of JB's Imprisonment is not now being shown? Is this merely an oversight, or are there any other connotations?
"THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS, EVER"
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Morning Adam
you totally amaze me. How do you know Jeremy hated working on the farm you are in a minority on that theory. I seem to think you made reference to Ralph Bambers age of 61 being old so how do you think he would have carried on running the farm for another 15 years he would have passed that on to Jeremy much sooner. You are obsessed with this money. Plenty to go round Ralph Bambers assets would increase in 15 years not decrease.
Because he read it somewhere. ;)
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Morning Grahame seem to think steve has made statements very similar he was always saying Jeremy hated farming,
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Morning Grahame seem to think steve has made statements very similar he was always saying Jeremy hated farming,
This is how a lot of those who hate Jeremy operate I'm afraid. If you say something often enough and long enough people begin to accept it as fact, whether it is or it isn't. A lot of these stories about Jeremy have come about over time and are not really checked out by those who say them. I really am astonished by the gullibility of some. First rule of choosing books: (1) Check out the writer and his/her background first. Then (2) check out the source of their information. After that (3) investigate the information itself.
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Because he read it somewhere. ;)
I did read it somewhere. Perhaps on this forum, or another forum, or in an internet article, or in the book I read (which has got the best reviews), or in the UK Justice site, or heard it on Youtube.
I like to get lots of information from different sources. Both for and against.
Susan will be the first to admit she gets everything from this site.
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Adam I do get the little knowledge I have from people on this site who have been posting for years and from Mike who has a wealth of information on the Jeremy Bamber case. I have been active on the forum for nearly two years so I know where to get my information from and what to avoid. Have never read a book but will be reading Mason Doyle's book as it will be based on fact not hearsay with all the latest information that has become available lately.
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Going back to the phones.
It is much more likely that Jeremy would attack Neville in the kitchen. Both phones were in the kitchen. Jeremy had to stop Neville making a phone call & identifying him.
If Sheila was planning to commit suicide, there is no reason to stop Neville making a call. By the time the police arrive, everyone would be dead.
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The phone issue was important enough to be discussed in court. The two scenarios are -
Both phones were in that location beforehand.
Jeremy took the kitchen phone off the hook upon entry, disabling all phones. Afterwards he took the bedroom phone downstairs & plugged it in. This would explain why Neville was in the kitchen. He was phoning Jeremy. Not sure why the working kitchen phone was unplugged & under a pile of newspapers.
There is no reason for Sheila to move the phones.
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Going back to the phones.
It is much more likely that Jeremy would attack Neville in the kitchen. Both phones were in the kitchen. Jeremy had to stop Neville making a phone call & identifying him.
If Sheila was planning to commit suicide, there is no reason to stop Neville making a call. By the time the police arrive, everyone would be dead.
That being the case,Jeremy didn't,or hadn't bothered to do any wiping,etc after himself. The table where the phone was with someones bloodied fingers,,the rifle,,the silencer. He did NOT retrace his steps,.,so he wasn't the murderer,as murderers always leave clues behind,no matter what. Even a droplet of sweat,fibres from clothing,all manner of clues,,but nothing.
To make matters worse anyway,no time of death was ever recorded,,no scrapings from under the fingernails taken and countless other unrecorded omissions.
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The phone issue was important enough to be discussed in court. The two scenarios are -
Both phones were in that location beforehand.
Jeremy took the kitchen phone off the hook upon entry, disabling all phones. Afterwards he took the bedroom phone downstairs & plugged it in. This would explain why Neville was in the kitchen. He was phoning Jeremy. Not sure why the working kitchen phone was unplugged & under a pile of newspapers.
There is no reason for Sheila to move the phones.
Farmhouse kitchens are notoriously untidy as they are usually the main junction for all through traffic. All who move through it tend to spread things around in it and that's without the presence of 2 small boys with their treasures.
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Adam I am totally lost with your post on phones ;D will think about it and get back to you ;D
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Adam I was under the impression that Ralph Bamber made two phone calls ;D
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Adam why would Jeremy take the upstairs phone downstairs it was already there the kitchen phone was under a pile of newspapers and had been for ages.
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The phone issue was important enough to be discussed in court. The two scenarios are -
Both phones were in that location beforehand.
Jeremy took the kitchen phone off the hook upon entry, disabling all phones. Afterwards he took the bedroom phone downstairs & plugged it in. This would explain why Neville was in the kitchen. He was phoning Jeremy. Not sure why the working kitchen phone was unplugged & under a pile of newspapers.
There is no reason for Sheila to move the phones.
That of course is speculation. If that could have been proven forensically then it would have been stated in court. Which of course it wasn't. Nothing could forensically attach these things to Jeremy. That is why people must needs speculate and such speculation must by definition be false.
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Adam I was under the impression that Ralph Bamber made two phone calls ;D
No one from Essex police have ever said they received a phone call from Neville Bamber. Jeremy only claimed this several years later when he saw a police phone log & claimed it was saying Neville phoned.
Only Jeremy is saying he received a call from Neville. There is no evidence to confirm this. Even if there was evidence, it could be Jeremy phoning his cottage from WHF.
The only thing we know for sure is Jeremy phoned Mugford. Witness statements in court suggest this was several minutes before he phoned the police. Jeremy in his interview transcripts is unsure what call he made first. Intially saying he phoned Mugford first but eventually saying he phoned her after phoning the police.
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That of course is speculation. If that could have been proven forensically then it would have been stated in court. Which of course it wasn't. Nothing could forensically attach these things to Jeremy. That is why people must needs speculate and such speculation must by definition be false.
Yes it is speculation. Based on fact of where & how Neville was found, together with the phone locations. All this was discussed in court. Circumstantial evidence ?
Jeremys fingerprints will be all over the kitchen. He was a regular visiter. What forensic evidence should there be ?
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Adam why would Jeremy take the upstairs phone downstairs it was already there the kitchen phone was under a pile of newspapers and had been for ages.
Where did you get this information ? The five members in the house that night are dead. The trial brought up the phone location.
There had been storms two months earlier. But surely Neville & June would have put the working bedroom phone back in the bedroom by now. At 61, neither of them would want to be running up & down the stairs of a big house to make & receive calls.
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Where did you get this information ? The five members in the house that night are dead. The trial brought up the phone location.
There had been storms two months earlier. But surely Neville & June would have put the working bedroom phone back in the bedroom by now. At 61, neither of them would want to be running up & down the stairs of a big house to make & receive calls.
61 is hardly 81 and June still rode a bike. The phone can hardly be said to have been hidden, all it would have taken was someone to have picked up the papers to look at/throw out/ search for something.
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That being the case,Jeremy didn't,or hadn't bothered to do any wiping,etc after himself. The table where the phone was with someones bloodied fingers,,the rifle,,the silencer. He did NOT retrace his steps,.,so he wasn't the murderer,as murderers always leave clues behind,no matter what. Even a droplet of sweat,fibres from clothing,all manner of clues,,but nothing.
To make matters worse anyway,no time of death was ever recorded,,no scrapings from under the fingernails taken and countless other unrecorded omissions.
Jeremy said he got the impression Neville was injured when he phoned. So why wasn't any blood found on the phone ?
Neville had a fractured jaw, damaged teeth, neck & larynx. The pathologist said he would have difficulty speaking.
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Jeremy said he got the impression Neville was injured when he phoned. So why wasn't any blood found on the phone.
Neville had a fractured jaw, damaged teeth, neck & larynx. The pathologist said he would have difficulty speaking.
Having the impression that....................is hardly the same thing as seeing that......................
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Hello Adam I was not aware that Jeremy said he thought Ralph was injured when he phoned him please direct me to where this is documented as I have missed it. Secondly Ralph phoned Jeremy before he was injured. I do as you tell me and research documents on the forum. ;D
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61 is hardly 81 and June still rode a bike. The phone can hardly be said to have been hidden, all it would have taken was someone to have picked up the papers to look at/throw out/ search for something.
Why buy a phone for the bedroom & not put it there ?
Twenty eight years ago, people of 61 would have been less fit.
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Hello Adam I was not aware that Jeremy said he thought Ralph was injured when he phoned him please direct me to where this is documented as I have missed it. Secondly Ralph phoned Jeremy before he was injured. I do as you tell me and research documents on the forum. ;D
Youtube - ' Jeremy Bamber, the night he came home'.
You will not enjoy it.
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Adam 28 years ago people would have been much fitter than they are now they had to work much harder for a start especially farmers they did not have the help of the machinery they have now they were much more active stop making inferences that Ralph Bamber was not a fit man bet he took those stairs two at a time.
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Adam thanks for telling me I wont watch it then ;D no point in watching anything I will not enjoy ;D
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Adam 28 years ago people would have been much fitter than they are now they had to work much harder for a start especially farmers they did not have the help of the machinery they have now they were much more active stop making inferences that Ralph Bamber was not a fit man bet he took those stairs two at a time.
Then why buy a bedroom phone ? June was not a farmer.
It was a big house. I would have had a phone in the bedroom. So not sure why it was not there on the night. The kitchen phone worked.
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Adam thanks for telling me I wont watch it then ;D no point in watching anything I will not enjoy ;D
Scary music.
There are lots of supportive Youtube videos, including some from Mike Tesco.
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Adam I will go and watch Mike's video as I know I will enjoy them. ;D
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Adam I will go and watch Mike's video as I know I will enjoy them. ;D
I have watched them all.
'Jeremy Bamber is innocent' & 'Jeremy Bamber, birthday behind bars' has the best music in my opinion.
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Adam I will report back to you ;D
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there were usually three phones at White House Farm; a cream dial phone in the master bedroom; a blue digital dial one in the upstairs office; and a cordless phone which was kept in the kitchen. There was also another phone at the Farm that was a ‘fawn’ colour and it also had a digital key pad and it is unclear where this phone was usually kept although it was found in the kitchen under some magazines.
There had been a thunderstorm which had caused damage to the phone system and an engineer called Mr Pike made a statement that he took away the cordless phone and that he did not leave a replacement. The farm secretary Mrs Wilson had been on holiday and was not entirely sure where the phones were moved to as a result of this storm. Nevertheless Mrs Jean Bouttell testified in court that the phones had gone wrong so many times in the past year that she described it as “musical phones” when asked in court simply because the phones were moved around so frequently by the Bamber Family. She said it was common practice for the cream phone from the bedroom to be moved down into the kitchen
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So was he a strapping man too much for Sheila to over come? Or a poor weak old fragile pensioner?
:)
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there were usually three phones at White House Farm; a cream dial phone in the master bedroom; a blue digital dial one in the upstairs office; and a cordless phone which was kept in the kitchen. There was also another phone at the Farm that was a ‘fawn’ colour and it also had a digital key pad and it is unclear where this phone was usually kept although it was found in the kitchen under some magazines.
There had been a thunderstorm which had caused damage to the phone system and an engineer called Mr Pike made a statement that he took away the cordless phone and that he did not leave a replacement. The farm secretary Mrs Wilson had been on holiday and was not entirely sure where the phones were moved to as a result of this storm. Nevertheless Mrs Jean Bouttell testified in court that the phones had gone wrong so many times in the past year that she described it as “musical phones” when asked in court simply because the phones were moved around so frequently by the Bamber Family. She said it was common practice for the cream phone from the bedroom to be moved down into the kitchen
So from what you have told us perhaps we may now put to bed once and for all that A. Movement of phones at WHF was in n o way unusual and B. had anyone moved a phone deliberately(?) they couldn't have been entirely certain that it wouldn't have found its' way back to its' original position.
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Adam thanks for telling me I wont watch it then ;D no point in watching anything I will not enjoy ;D
Perhaps you may learn more.
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The phone issue was important enough to be discussed in court. The two scenarios are -
Both phones were in that location beforehand.
Jeremy took the kitchen phone off the hook upon entry, disabling all phones. Afterwards he took the bedroom phone downstairs & plugged it in. This would explain why Neville was in the kitchen. He was phoning Jeremy. Not sure why the working kitchen phone was unplugged & under a pile of newspapers.
There is no reason for Sheila to move the phones.
These are the only two options.
Jeremy 'may' know.
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But they may just have been clutching at straws to find things to use , because lets face it they had no concrete evidence to go on. So why not believe the person who said in court that the phones were often moved about? I think EP used the phone in the kitchen as well after entering the crime scene another case of "contaminating the crime scene"
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Adam forgive me for asking which bit of this post is yours and which bit belongs to jansus. Is the blank bit yours ;D
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No one from Essex police have ever said they received a phone call from Neville Bamber. Jeremy only claimed this several years later when he saw a police phone log & claimed it was saying Neville phoned.
Only Jeremy is saying he received a call from Neville. There is no evidence to confirm this. Even if there was evidence, it could be Jeremy phoning his cottage from WHF.
The only thing we know for sure is Jeremy phoned Mugford. Witness statements in court suggest this was several minutes before he phoned the police. Jeremy in his interview transcripts is unsure what call he made first. Intially saying he phoned Mugford first but eventually saying he phoned her after phoning the police.
So he can't win either way then. Because he has no hard evidence that Ralph phoned the police he is guilty. If he had concrete evidence of Ralph phoning the police he is still guilty. I never cease to be amazed as to how the minds' of those who believe Bamber to be guilty work.
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So he can't win either way then. Because he has no hard evidence that Ralph phoned the police he is guilty. If he had concrete evidence of Ralph phoning the police he is still guilty. I never cease to be amazed as to how the minds' of those who believe Bamber to be guilty work.
It's a one-track fixation. Their brains don't work beyond a continual blame culture,,which applies with most of what they debate.They don't look further than the end of their noses. An awful lot of people would be hanged if it was left to this minority of one-sided,biased individuals.
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lookout you will never win with some folk think I am winning Adam round ;D
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lookout you will never win with some folk think I am winning Adam round ;D
Don't hold your breath,Susan. He'll come up with something. ;D
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Perhaps you may learn more.
Are you being ironic Adam . From your postings on here thus far I don't think you should be advising others to learn more .
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Gringo Agam is still wearing "L" plates and you know the old saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ;D
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lookout you could be right ;D ;D ;D
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lookout you will never win with some folk think I am winning Adam round ;D
If you can convert Steve as well I think you should get a gold star by your name .
Does anyone know what other info there is around about the 3 burn marks on the back of NB neck? Was there some suspicion they could have been done by a poker? or a gun ? Just occurred to me again about the number 3 appearing on the strange note that was found? Religious connections?
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If you can convert Steve as well I think you should get a gold star by your name .
Does anyone know what other info there is around about the 3 burn marks on the back of NB neck? Was there some suspicion they could have been done by a poker? or a gun ? Just occurred to me again about the number 3 appearing on the strange note that was found? Religious connections?
A link was attempted but nothing conclusive arrived at.
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A link was attempted but nothing conclusive arrived at.
I guess we will never know. Unless there was more paper work or diaries etc found or notes In the bible that were hidden and are suddenly found.
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I guess we will never know. Unless there was more paper work or diaries etc found or notes In the bible that were hidden and are suddenly found.
Wouldn't that be wonderful!!
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So he can't win either way then. Because he has no hard evidence that Ralph phoned the police he is guilty. If he had concrete evidence of Ralph phoning the police he is still guilty. I never cease to be amazed as to how the minds' of those who believe Bamber to be guilty work.
No Grahame: if it's Ralph(Nevill) telephoning Jeremy then Jeremy is innocent. But there's just no corroboration of it,and you have to ask yourself why Ralph would seek Jeremy's help in the first place if his recent conversations with Barbara Wilson are true. I'm minded of the alleged remark Jeremy made to Julie in the first of three calls(which in itself is suspicious): "Tonight's the night..it's now or never"..those chilling words which encompass all the coincidences which to Jeremy's mind were working in his favour that week: all under one roof,a sick sister who may have threatened an electrician,Ralph himself feeling under par,the telephones not in the correct order to avert suspicion that there was no telephone to hand in the master bedroom. They were all sitting ducks faced with Jeremy's malevolence,which to this day he is still not admitting..
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No Grahame: if it's Ralph(Nevill) telephoning Jeremy then Jeremy is innocent. But there's just no corroboration of it,and you have to ask yourself why Ralph would seek Jeremy's help in the first place if his recent conversations with Barbara Wilson are true. I'm minded of the alleged remark Jeremy made to Julie in the first of three calls(which in itself is suspicious): "Tonight's the night..it's now or never"..those chilling words which encompass all the coincidences which to Jeremy's mind were working in his favour that week: all under one roof,a sick sister who may have threatened an electrician,Ralph himself feeling under par,the telephones not in the correct order to avert suspicion that there was no telephone to hand in the master bedroom. They were all sitting ducks faced with Jeremy's malevolence,which to this day he is still not admitting..
Steve I was answering Adam's post where he said that even if it could be proved that Ralph phoned the police it still may have been Jeremy phoning from WHF. In reply I said that Jeremy cannot win if that is the case, as the guilty party do not seem to accept anything as evidence of his innocence.
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No Grahame: if it's Ralph(Nevill) telephoning Jeremy then Jeremy is innocent. But there's just no corroboration of it,and you have to ask yourself why Ralph would seek Jeremy's help in the first place if his recent conversations with Barbara Wilson are true. I'm minded of the alleged remark Jeremy made to Julie in the first of three calls(which in itself is suspicious): "Tonight's the night..it's now or never"..those chilling words which encompass all the coincidences which to Jeremy's mind were working in his favour that week: all under one roof,a sick sister who may have threatened an electrician,Ralph himself feeling under par,the telephones not in the correct order to avert suspicion that there was no telephone to hand in the master bedroom. They were all sitting ducks faced with Jeremy's malevolence,which to this day he is still not admitting..
Steve, I'm so glad you're now saying those words are alleged. It seems that whilst there indeed may have been favourite positions, there was no strict "correct order" for the telephones.
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Do we know who it was who'd requested the diaries,and who allegedly mentioned taking them to a newspaper.? It would seem that the diaries were wanted,according to DC Whiddon. They were finally handed over to the trustee Basil Cock,after having been under lock and key at Police HQ in Moulsham or Melbourne,after it had been decided to hand them over rather than destroy them.This was in 1991.
However,they were eventually incinerated.
Notes on this can be found on Bambertweets in twitpic.
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So he can't win either way then. Because he has no hard evidence that Ralph phoned the police he is guilty. If he had concrete evidence of Ralph phoning the police he is still guilty. I never cease to be amazed as to how the minds' of those who believe Bamber to be guilty work.
Unfortunatly for Jeremy that is correct.
What a pity for Jeremy no one from Essex police has ever said they heard from Neville.
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Innocent until proven guilty means they have to prove that Neville 'didn't' call Jeremy and by your own words theye is nothing to prove he did and so there is also NOTHING to prove he didn't!!
I am sure when the jury were discussing the case, they would have discussed this.
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No Grahame: if it's Ralph(Nevill) telephoning Jeremy then Jeremy is innocent. But there's just no corroboration of it,and you have to ask yourself why Ralph would seek Jeremy's help in the first place if his recent conversations with Barbara Wilson are true. I'm minded of the alleged remark Jeremy made to Julie in the first of three calls(which in itself is suspicious): "Tonight's the night..it's now or never"..those chilling words which encompass all the coincidences which to Jeremy's mind were working in his favour that week: all under one roof,a sick sister who may have threatened an electrician,Ralph himself feeling under par,the telephones not in the correct order to avert suspicion that there was no telephone to hand in the master bedroom. They were all sitting ducks faced with Jeremy's malevolence,which to this day he is still not admitting..
The jury would have discussed this to
Reasons for Neville not to phone Jeremy -
Jeremy may not answer the phone. If he does it may not be for a long time. It was 3am. Jeremy himself said in the interview transcripts he slept 'like a log' that night.
Jeremy will not be over for a long time. He has to get dressed & drive over.
Neville is putting his son Jeremy in danger. Sheila has gone 'crazy' with a gun.
Neville was big, strong & had been in the army. As the head of the family his pride will make him want to resolve the situation. As Jeremy said, Neville would want to keep things private. If Jeremy knew Neville liked to keep things private, why did he phone the police ?
Jeremy & Sheila did not get on. Jeremy telling the police on the night 'I don't get on with her at all. I don't like her & she does'nt like me'. Jeremy also told the police on the night Sheila is a 'nutter'.
Jeremy has said himself that in 1985 he did not understand Sheila's illness. Neville would have known this & knew Jeremy may be insensitive in a serious situation.
Several people have testified that Jeremy hated his parents. Neville would be aware of this. Would Jeremy be bothered enough to drive over quickly, or drive over at all ? The police have testified that Jeremy was driving very slowly to WHF.
Having Jeremy there would make the situation worse. Barbara Wilson said there was often a bad atmosphere in the house when Jeremy was present.
Neville answered the phone that evening before 10am. He was apparently short & the caller said it sounded like she had interrupted an argument. Had Jeremy been upsetting people ? If so it is doubtful Nevill will ask him back over a few hours later.
Having more people in the house may make Sheila more 'crazy'.
Jeremy did not have a front door key (as far as I know). Was a 'crazy' Sheila going to let Neville answer the front door ? Or was Jeremy going to shout through the letterbox !
Jeremy was not known for being especially brave or macho. Certainly no more so than Neville. As mentioned Jeremy was seen driving very slowly to WHF.
According to Barbara Wilson, Neville knew Jeremy had broken into the caravan site & stole nearly £1,000. Neville & Jeremy's relationship at the time would have been very poor.
Jeremy claimed several years later that there was proof Neville phoned the police. The EP have never said they got a call from Neville. However if Jeremy is correct the police would be more experienced in dealing with this sort of situation. So Neville would not need to call Jeremy.
There is no time for Neville to make a phone call. Dial up phones are slow & the phone numbers in Essex are long. Jeremy may not answer for a long time.
Although Neville was proud, he was not stupid. In this serious situation if he was going to use the phone it would be to dial 999. Why ring Jeremy if the police were coming over ?
In the heat of the moment it is doubtful Neville will think 'let me phone Jeremy who will sort everything out'.
Jeremy had worked a long day at the farm. Tomorrow would be another long day. Neville knew Jeremy needed his rest.
Neville & Sheila got on well. If Neville could not contain her, Jeremy certainly could not.
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Morning Adam
wow what a post I think you are better at reading the tea leaves than me ;D ;D ;D only I suspect my readings are a little more accurate than yours ;D Go and have another look.
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The jury would have discussed this to
Reasons for Neville not to phone Jeremy -
Jeremy may not answer the phone. If he does it may not be for a long time. It was 3am. Jeremy himself said in the interview transcripts he slept 'like a log' that night.
Jeremy will not be over for a long time. He has to get dressed & drive over.
Neville is putting his son Jeremy in danger. Sheila has gone 'crazy' with a gun.
Neville was big, strong & had been in the army. As the head of the family his pride will make him want to resolve the situation. As Jeremy said, Neville would want to keep things private. If Jeremy knew Neville liked to keep things private, why did he phone the police ?
Jeremy & Sheila did not get on. Jeremy telling the police on the night 'I don't get on with her at all. I don't like her & she does'nt like me'. Jeremy also told the police on the night Sheila is a 'nutter'.
Jeremy has said himself that in 1985 he did not understand Sheila's illness. Neville would have known this & knew Jeremy may be insensitive in a serious situation.
Several people have testified that Jeremy hated his parents. Neville would be aware of this. Would Jeremy be bothered enough to drive over quickly, or drive over at all ? The police have testified that Jeremy was driving very slowly to WHF.
Having Jeremy there would make the situation worse. Barbara Wilson said there was often a bad atmosphere in the house when Jeremy was present.
Neville answered the phone that evening before 10am. He was apparently short & the caller said it sounded like she had interrupted an argument. Had Jeremy been upsetting people ? If so it is doubtful Nevill will ask him back over a few hours later.
Having more people in the house may make Sheila more 'crazy'.
Jeremy did not have a front door key (as far as I know). Was a 'crazy' Sheila going to let Neville answer the front door ? Or was Jeremy going to shout through the letterbox !
Jeremy was not known for being especially brave or macho. Certainly no more so than Neville. As mentioned Jeremy was seen driving very slowly to WHF.
According to Barbara Wilson, Neville knew Jeremy had broken into the caravan site & stole nearly £1,000. Neville & Jeremy's relationship at the time would have been very poor.
Jeremy claimed several years later that there was proof Neville phoned the police. The EP have never said they got a call from Neville. However if Jeremy is correct the police would be more experienced in dealing with this sort of situation. So Neville would not need to call Jeremy.
There is no time for Neville to make a phone call. Dial up phones are slow & the phone numbers in Essex are long. Jeremy may not answer for a long time.
Although Neville was proud, he was not stupid. In this serious situation if he was going to use the phone it would be to dial 999. Why ring Jeremy if the police were coming over ?
In the heat of the moment it is doubtful Neville will think 'let me phone Jeremy who will sort everything out'.
Jeremy had worked a long day at the farm. Tomorrow would be another long day. Neville knew Jeremy needed his rest.
Neville & Sheila got on well. If Neville could not contain her, Jeremy certainly could not.
Well Adam, it seems you have the case well and truly sown up? No need for any comments from me then. ;)
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Morning Grahame Case solved. Adam should write a book ;D
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Morning Grahame Case solved. Adam should write a book ;D
What a "novel" idea. ;D
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Ha Ha Grahame you are on the button today ;D
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The jury would have discussed this to
Reasons for Neville not to phone Jeremy -
Jeremy may not answer the phone. If he does it may not be for a long time. It was 3am. Jeremy himself said in the interview transcripts he slept 'like a log' that night.
Jeremy will not be over for a long time. He has to get dressed & drive over.
Neville is putting his son Jeremy in danger. Sheila has gone 'crazy' with a gun.
Neville was big, strong & had been in the army. As the head of the family his pride will make him want to resolve the situation. As Jeremy said, Neville would want to keep things private. If Jeremy knew Neville liked to keep things private, why did he phone the police ?
Jeremy & Sheila did not get on. Jeremy telling the police on the night 'I don't get on with her at all. I don't like her & she does'nt like me'. Jeremy also told the police on the night Sheila is a 'nutter'.
Jeremy has said himself that in 1985 he did not understand Sheila's illness. Neville would have known this & knew Jeremy may be insensitive in a serious situation.
Several people have testified that Jeremy hated his parents. Neville would be aware of this. Would Jeremy be bothered enough to drive over quickly, or drive over at all ? The police have testified that Jeremy was driving very slowly to WHF.
Having Jeremy there would make the situation worse. Barbara Wilson said there was often a bad atmosphere in the house when Jeremy was present.
Neville answered the phone that evening before 10am. He was apparently short & the caller said it sounded like she had interrupted an argument. Had Jeremy been upsetting people ? If so it is doubtful Nevill will ask him back over a few hours later.
Having more people in the house may make Sheila more 'crazy'.
Jeremy did not have a front door key (as far as I know). Was a 'crazy' Sheila going to let Neville answer the front door ? Or was Jeremy going to shout through the letterbox !
Jeremy was not known for being especially brave or macho. Certainly no more so than Neville. As mentioned Jeremy was seen driving very slowly to WHF.
According to Barbara Wilson, Neville knew Jeremy had broken into the caravan site & stole nearly £1,000. Neville & Jeremy's relationship at the time would have been very poor.
Jeremy claimed several years later that there was proof Neville phoned the police. The EP have never said they got a call from Neville. However if Jeremy is correct the police would be more experienced in dealing with this sort of situation. So Neville would not need to call Jeremy.
There is no time for Neville to make a phone call. Dial up phones are slow & the phone numbers in Essex are long. Jeremy may not answer for a long time.
Although Neville was proud, he was not stupid. In this serious situation if he was going to use the phone it would be to dial 999. Why ring Jeremy if the police were coming over ?
In the heat of the moment it is doubtful Neville will think 'let me phone Jeremy who will sort everything out'.
Jeremy had worked a long day at the farm. Tomorrow would be another long day. Neville knew Jeremy needed his rest.
Nevill & Sheila got on well. If Nevill could not contain her, Jeremy certainly could not.
Adam,
A very good post and one that makes a lot of sense to me.
Why some can't seem to understand these points is beyond me!! ???
I wonder if the Jury took these points into consideration - I would have ;)
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Hello Nickos best comment I can make is :-* :-* :-*
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Hello Nickos best comment I can make is :-* :-* :-*
What even this?:
Neville answered the phone that evening before 10am. He was apparently short & the caller said it sounded like she had interrupted an argument. Had Jeremy been upsetting people ? If so it is doubtful Nevill will ask him back over a few hours later.
Pure conjecture.
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Grahame think part of the quote is correct but the bit about Jeremy upsetting people I guess not more like the discussion of the foster care for the twins. Adam often adds bits to original posts that suits his scenario ;D ;D ;D If the cap fits Adam will wear it or maybe if the suit fits Adam would wear it ;D
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Adam you got all red cards for that post ;D ;D ;D
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I wonder why Jeremy didn't have a key to WHF? Both my sons have a key to our house although they live elswhere.
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Grahame I was led to believe that when the new front door was fitted it came with two keys which is the norm. Ralph and June had one and the other was held by Barbara Wilson. Not sure about keys to the backdoor I suspect one left inside in lock the other either lost or hid in shed
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Grahame I was led to believe that when the new front door was fitted it came with two keys which is the norm. Ralph and June had one and the other was held by Barbara Wilson. Not sure about keys to the backdoor I suspect one left inside in lock the other either lost or hid in shed
Hi Susan, you are probably right about the keys but as Barbara Wilson carried her key with her I imagine they were often a one key family.
I think you will find the back door was the front door, if you see what I mean? :-\
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Agree with your answers to Adam's post Caroline.
Would like to add that Neil was not in the Army, he was in the RAF and was trained as a fighter pilot. The training he undertook would have been rigorous as he had to learn Navigation by the stars etc. He would be trained how to deal if he came down in enemy territory but wouldn't be trained for combat the way and Army man would be. I know the moves he would have been taught as my Dad taught them to me when I was a teenager. A tie was a necessary article of clothing for some of these moves to be successful, don't believe Sheila was wearing one and cannot for a moment imagine Nevill sticking his fingers in the eyes of his beloved daughter, would imagine he would choose to die rather than do such a thing.
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Maggie I thought an outside door was located in what I call the laundry room. Maybe I am mistaken but houses of that size usually have at least two outside doors. I had read that the spare key to this door was kept hidden outside and so well hidden was lost.
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Maggie I thought an outside door was located in what I call the laundry room. Maybe I am mistaken but houses of that size usually have at least two outside doors. I had read that the spare key to this door was kept hidden outside and so well hidden was lost.
O goodness, now I'm confused, I thought they had the front door at the front ;) which they didn't use and then the back door, by the laundry room was what they used and called the front door, that was the one they always used.???????
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Maggie I have not got a clue about the doors just heard you previously talk about the new front door. Sure somebody on the forum will know unless I start googling.
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Maggie I have not got a clue about the doors just heard you previously talk about the new front door. Sure somebody on the forum will know unless I start googling.
The door which was sledge hammered was at the back of the house, but I am pretty certain they used that door as their front door and called it the front door. Don't think they really used the grand front door very much, if at all.
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There seem to be two quite distinct groups here. Those who believe that JB is innocent but are still asking questions and are still quite open to establishing as much factual evidence as possible. And those who believe he is guilty and seem very closed to any other explanation other than the one that they have decided is true. I think it is quite important to stand back and realise that IF he is innocent then the character assassinations , evidence given by certain people and the selection of evidence handed over by EP from the second file only may not be reliable. Therefore to use all these in arguments is flawed. I cant understand people who keep posting when they have decided exactly what has happened and are not willing to take into account evidence that is out there but just did not appear in court at the time . They are willing to believe that JB is an evil liar - but that no one else involved also could be telling lies or be motivated by money. Which seems a bit illogical to me . IMO :)
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Hi jansus Excellent post. The posters on the forum who think Jeremy Bamber is innocent are all the time trying to find something that will help him gain his freedom. The posters who think he is guilty are not happy that he is serving life in prison they seem to want to discredit him further and point out what an evil person he is. Now he is serving life what other kind of punishment are they looking to inflict on him are they not happy with the sentence given. The theories are being posted up of what happened what difference does it make to them he was found GUILTY in a Court of Law.
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There seem to be two quite distinct groups here. Those who believe that JB is innocent but are still asking questions and are still quite open to establishing as much factual evidence as possible. And those who believe he is guilty and seem very closed to any other explanation other than the one that they have decided is true. I think it is quite important to stand back and realise that IF he is innocent then the character assassinations , evidence given by certain people and the selection of evidence handed over by EP from the second file only may not be reliable. Therefore to use all these in arguments is flawed. I cant understand people who keep posting when they have decided exactly what has happened and are not willing to take into account evidence that is out there but just did not appear in court at the time . They are willing to believe that JB is an evil liar - but that no one else involved also could be telling lies or be motivated by money. Which seems a bit illogical to me . IMO :)
Jansus, I have long said the same as you. I would further that by saying whilst those who believe him guilty refuse to accept new facts they are VERY willing to throw into their mix, as FACT, every unproven supposition they can lay their hands on.
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Grahame I was led to believe that when the new front door was fitted it came with two keys which is the norm. Ralph and June had one and the other was held by Barbara Wilson. Not sure about keys to the backdoor I suspect one left inside in lock the other either lost or hid in shed
If Barbara Wilson had a key to the front door then is it a silly question to ask why the cops didn't go to her first before knocking the back door down?
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Grahame well thought maybe they did not know she had a key. The front door is actually the back door the one they stormed and battered down. Posh door at front of the house not used according to Maggie Hope you are not confused ;D ;D ;D Just a thought think the key was in the lock on the inside of the house.
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Grahame well thought maybe they did not know she had a key. The front door is actually the back door the one they stormed and battered down. Posh door at front of the house not used according to Maggie Hope you are not confused ;D ;D ;D Just a thought think the key was in the lock on the inside of the house.
I was watching these cops on tv once and a thief had climbed in through a top window. The police arrived and proceeded to batter the door down without success. The damaged the door so obviously it had to be replaced.
But in the end the copper decided to climb in the same window the burglar did. I thought to myself, "Why didn't he do that in the first place. Now he's done more damage than the thief".
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If Barbara Wilson had a key to the front door then is it a silly question to ask why the cops didn't go to her first before knocking the back door down?
It might have been bolted from the inside,Grahame,or the lock could have been on the " snib ".
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Ha Ha Grahame maybe he liked battering doors down ;D ;D ;D
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It might have been bolted from the inside,Grahame,or the lock could have been on the " snib ".
I think the key was in the lock on the inside. I used to believe the door was also bolted, then read there were no bolts, it will show on Campion's fave photo of the broken door with the body/bush lying by it if there were bolts. ;D
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Thanks for the feedback to my post.
People will either agree or make counter arguments to my points.
Neville would have had to disregard all of my 19 points in order to phone Jeremy. Which is very doubtful in my view.
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I think the key was in the lock on the inside. I used to believe the door was also bolted, then read there were no bolts, it will show on Campion's fave photo of the broken door with the body/bush lying by it if there were bolts. ;D
;D ;D Oh yes,,the body bush. Of course if the key was in the lock it wouldn't open it.
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Sadly Jeremy was also in a no win situation with the phone locations.
He either knew both phones were downstairs in the kitchen after having supper that evening. Making the crime easier.
Or he moved the bedroom phone downstairs.
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;D ;D Oh yes,,the body bush. Of course if the key was in the lock it wouldn't open it.
Also we could check if there were bolts on the door, from memory, I don't think there were. Hi Lookout
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Adam Hello why would Jeremy take a phone downstairs there was already a phone downstairs you said yesterday he took the handset off the cradle so the phone upstairs could not be used.
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Sadly Jeremy was also in a no win situation with the phone locations.
He either knew both phones were downstairs in the kitchen after having supper that evening. Making the crime easier.
Or he moved the bedroom phone downstairs.
You sound so like Steve it's frightening. The cream phone was moved downstairs a few days before the murders, after Nevill's phone was put out of action by a thunder storm. The guy who collected the broken phone and took it for repair saw the cream phone in the kitchen at that time. You are peddling myths Adam. ;) ;)
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You sound so like Steve it's frightening. The cream phone was moved downstairs a few days before the murders, after Nevill's phone was put out of action by a thunder storm. The guy who collected the broken phone and took it for repair saw the cream phone in the kitchen at that time. You are peddling myths Adam. ;) ;)
The thunderstorms were in June.
If both phones were downstairs on the night Jeremy would know Neville could not make a call in from his bedroom.
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Adam Hello why would Jeremy take a phone downstairs there was already a phone downstairs you said yesterday he took the handset off the cradle so the phone upstairs could not be used.
As said in my scenario, to give a reason why Neville was found in the kitchen. Neville had made a desparate attempt to get downstairs & phone Jeremy from the kitchen.
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The thunderstorms were in June.
If both phones were downstairs on the night Jeremy would know Neville could not make a call in from his bedroom.
Jeremy may have known, I suppose if he was planning a murder he would go into the kitchen and check which phone was down there, then he'd think, aha, the bedroom phone is in the kitchen therefore 'tonight's the night' or words to that effect. No I don't believe so. 8)
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Hello Adam don't think anyone would argue with you on that one. ;D
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Strange that Jeremy did not have a key for WHF. It was his family home & he worked on the farm. Might explain the hacksaw found outside & bathroom window hacksaw marks.
Barbara Wilson said Neville had instructed that the safe key was moved. Maybe Neville thought Jeremy was planning to attack him.
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Jeremy may have known, I suppose if he was planning a murder he would go into the kitchen and check which phone was down there, then he'd think, aha, the bedroom phone is in the kitchen therefore 'tonight's the night' or words to that effect. No I don't believe so. 8)
I agree. If the bedroom phone was upstairs, all Jeremy needed to do was pick up the kitchen phone upon entry. That disabled all phones.
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The thunderstorms were in June.
If both phones were downstairs on the night Jeremy would know Neville could not make a call in from his bedroom.
I think you will find that a storm damaged Nevill's phone a few days before and the bedroom phone was moved downstairs. The reason that particular phone was moved down was because June preferred it to the other 'spare' one which at some point must have slipped off the pile of magazines and down the back of them.
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Adam the bedroom phone was not upstairs it was downstairs. Keep up ;D
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Adam are you not paying attention we have discussed the keys in full earlier. Two keys existed the Bambers had one Barbara Wilson the other. With regard to the safe key being moved hearsay again but had it been the case why do you always point the finger at Jeremy could have been moved for many reasons. Security reasons too many people knew where it was kept for instance. Jeremy volunteered the information that he sometimes gained access through a window no secret Adam so stop trying to make it one.
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Hi jansus Excellent post. The posters on the forum who think Jeremy Bamber is innocent are all the time trying to find something that will help him gain his freedom. The posters who think he is guilty are not happy that he is serving life in prison they seem to want to discredit him further and point out what an evil person he is. Now he is serving life what other kind of punishment are they looking to inflict on him are they not happy with the sentence given. The theories are being posted up of what happened what difference does it make to them he was found GUILTY in a Court of Law.
People will have different views after reading about the case.
It is a high profile case. Partly because Jeremy has always claimed he is innocent & is always appealing. He also has his own Offical website, lawyers, official Youtube videos & is always in the media. So people will comment.
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Adam the bedroom phone was not upstairs it was downstairs. Keep up ;D
As I mentioned before, the kitchen phone locations were considered strange and important enough to be discussed in court. Keep up.
Reading a decent book on the case may also help.
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Adam are you not paying attention we have discussed the keys in full earlier. Two keys existed the Bambers had one Barbara Wilson the other. With regard to the safe key being moved hearsay again but had it been the case why do you always point the finger at Jeremy could have been moved for many reasons. Security reasons too many people knew where it was kept for instance. Jeremy volunteered the information that he sometimes gained access through a window no secret Adam so stop trying to make it one.
So Jeremy did not have a key to gain access to WHF. Strange.
Why would Neville phone him ?
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Adam Ralph would have opened the door from the inside and let Jeremy in at this stage no shots had been fired. Failing that Ralph knew Jeremy could access through the window as he had often done.
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So Jeremy did not have a key to gain access to WHF. Strange.
Why would Neville phone him ?
That is actually a very good observation. I'll give you that. If Jeremy could not get in and Ralph knew it, then why phone Jeremy?
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The white kitchen phone was found off the hook. Jeremy also says the phone went dead in mid conversation.
This suggests that Sheila put her hand on the phone to disconnect it. Meaning she was right next to Neville. This must have been when the fight took place. Sheila giving Neville a brutal beating.
If there were problems upstairs Neville would have ended the conversation & put the phone back on the hook.
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The white kitchen phone was found off the hook. Jeremy also says the phone went dead in mid conversation.
This suggests that Sheila put her hand on the phone to disconnect it. Meaning she was right next to Neville. This must have been when the fight took place. Sheila giving Neville a brutal beating.
Hi Adam :)
Not proven one way or the other in all fairness....No one knows and this is pure speculation of course. :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam for Sheila to have given Ralph a brutal beating don't forget he was 6.4 she would have to have stood on a stool. It is obvious Ralph was beaten when in a sitting position. I think Ralph dropped the phone and ran upstairs after hearing a commotion I am giving you parts of my scenario. ;D
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Hi Adam :)
Not proven one way or the other in all fairness....No one knows and this is pure speculation of course. :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D
That is partly what forums are for . To speculate.
If Neville was not attacked while on the phone, he would have ended the conversation & automatically put the phone back on the hook.
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Adam for Sheila to have given Ralph a brutal beating don't forget he was 6.4 she would have to have stood on a stool. It is obvious Ralph was beaten when in a sitting position. I think Ralph dropped the phone and ran upstairs after hearing a commotion I am giving you parts of my scenario. ;D
Why not put the phone back on the hook ? Jeremy & the police may call him back.
So Neville ran upstairs & ended up downstairs with two black eyes, damaged jaw, neck, teeth & larynx.
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That is partly what forums are for . To speculate.
If Neville was attacked while on the phone, he would have ended the conversation & automatically put the phone back on the hook.
As in, "I say, old girl, would you mind backing off for a moment while Daddy replaces the receiver"!!!?
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As in, "I say, old girl, would you mind backing off for a moment while Daddy replaces the receiver"!!!?
Sorry just amended my post to include 'not'.
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Sorry just amended my post to include 'not'.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam Ralph would have just dropped the phone and ran to see what was happening but anyway I may change my scenario yet. ;D Did you notice I asked Patti earlier if Sheila could access the bedrooms from the backstairs from the kitchen ;)
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That is partly what forums are for . To speculate.
If Neville was attacked while on the phone, he would have ended the conversation & automatically put the phone back on the hook.
Yeah but. Lets say at this point Neville had not been injured at all and he wanted Jeremy's support because Sheila was behaving somewhat silly with a rifle/gun.
We can speculate that if Neville used the phone to call Jeremy, she might have felt betrayed by her father just like she did when Freddie phoned her doctor when she became ill that night. Freddie clearly says in his statement that she went more berserk when I used the phone. Could this have been the case when her father phoned Jeremy? Could she have pressed the cut off button on the phone? It is possible.
What is not possible of course is that Neville had any injuries at this point. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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That is actually a very good observation. I'll give you that. If Jeremy could not get in and Ralph knew it, then why phone Jeremy?
Perhaps Neville thought if there was a chance he could get past a crazy Sheila & open the front door, everything would be alright.
Although Jeremy thought Sheila was a 'nutter' & 'he didn't like her & she didn't like him'' Neville thought Jeremy would save the day.
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reference the phones there is a thread on here with a statement from a mr pike that one phone was removed on 5th august that JB was not aware because he was not in the house at the time - my point being that although the thunderstorm was earlier in time there was still problems with the phones and JB did not know in detail exactly which ones were working or where they all were.
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Yeah but. Lets say at this point Neville had not been injured at all and he wanted Jeremy's support because Sheila was behaving somewhat silly with a rifle/gun.
We can speculate that if Neville used the phone to call Jeremy, she might have felt betrayed by her father just like she did when Freddie phoned her doctor when she became ill that night. Freddie clearly says in his statement that she went more berserk when I used the phone. Could this have been the case when her father phoned Jeremy? Could she have pressed the cut off button on the phone? It is possible.
What is not possible of course is that Neville had any injuries at this point. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I amended my post to include 'not'. The phone being off the hook is most likely to happen by Sheila pressing the termination button.
Neville will put the phone back on the hook himself if he was not being attacked. The police or Jeremy may call back.
Perhaps Jeremy took the kitchen phone off the hook to back up his story ?
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Perhaps Neville thought if there was a chance he could get past a crazy Sheila & open the front door, everything would be alright.
Although Jeremy thought Sheila was a 'nutter' & 'he didn't like her & she didn't like her' Neville tjought Jeremy would save the day.
I think in a situation when someone has just grabbed a gun and you don't know what they are going to do with it you would want some support from another family member as soon as possible. At that point he probably would not believe his own daughter would actually fire at the family , perhaps he thought she might just fire "madly" at walls or furniture - or perhaps he did think she would harm herself , but at that point even he might not realise the full extent of what she was about to do. So I agree perhaps he thought he could contain her , and let JB in. But within minutes the situation changed.
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I amended my post to include 'not'. The phone being off the hook is most likely to happen by Sheila pressing the termination button.
Neville will put the phone back on the hook himself if he was not being attacked. The police or Jeremy may call back.
Perhaps Jeremy took the kitchen phone off the hook to back up his story ?
Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Maybe Neville placed the phone down in that position himself, its a shame fingerprints were never taken at the time to prove this one way or the other. ;) ;D ;D ;D
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I think in a situation when someone has just grabbed a gun and you don't know what they are going to do with it you would want some support from another family member as soon as possible. At that point he probably would not believe his own daughter would actually fire at the family , perhaps he thought she might just fire "madly" at walls or furniture - or perhaps he did think she would harm herself , but at that point even he might not realise the full extent of what she was about to do. So I agree perhaps he thought he could contain her , and let JB in. But within minutes the situation changed.
Why is the phone off the hook ?
Family support from Jeremy ? That is like asking Oliver Reed to support a recovering alcoholic !
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Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Maybe Neville placed the phone down in that position himself, its a shame fingerprints were never taken at the time to prove this one way or the other. ;) ;D ;D ;D
Do not think phone fingerprints are that important. Everyone used the phone.
Talking of fingerprints, was there only two fingerprints found on the rifle, as if it had been wiped ? Thought Sheila's fingerprints would be all over the rifle.
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Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Maybe Neville placed the phone down in that position himself, its a shame fingerprints were never taken at the time to prove this one way or the other. ;) ;D ;D ;D
Hi Patti, It is possible that Nevill depressed the cradle with one hand and just dropped the receiver and ran if he heard a serious disturbance or a shot.
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Adam you said Jeremy was wearing gloves so his fingerprints would not be on the rifle. Sheila's prints were found on the shotgun.
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Hi Patti, It is possible that Nevill depressed the cradle with one hand and just dropped the receiver and ran if he heard a serious disturbance or a shot.
Doubtful. Just putting the phone back on the hook would be just as quick. It is also the normal thing to do when finishing a call.
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Adam you said Jeremy was wearing gloves so his fingerprints would not be on the rifle. Sheila's prints were found on the shotgun.
Jeremy had heard rabbits the night before & loaded the gun.
How do you hear rabbits ?
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Do not think phone fingerprints are that important. Everyone used the phone.
Talking of fingerprints, was there only two fingerprints found on the rifle, as if it had been wiped ? Thought Sheila's fingerprints would be all over the rifle.
Adam the rifle had not been wiped, forensics know when that happens. There were two prints and many more that were insubstantial. Shelia's print from her right finger was found on the butt of the rifle and Jeremy's was found at the breach..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam the rifle had not been wiped, forensics know when that happens. There were two prints and many more that were insubstantial. Shelia's print from her right finger was found on the butt of the rifle and Jeremy's was found at the breach..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanks.
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"Family support from Jeremy ? That is like asking Oliver Reed to support a recovering alcoholic"
That is your opinion on their relationship. But it may not be true. As I said try standing back and not assuming all the stories and statements made are true.
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Hi Patti, It is possible that Nevill depressed the cradle with one hand and just dropped the receiver and ran if he heard a serious disturbance or a shot.
Hi Maggie :) It is possible that NB pressed the cradle with intentions of phoning someone else and had chase after Sheila for some reason. Anything is possible....its proving which is the right possibility.. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam you said Jeremy was wearing gloves so his fingerprints would not be on the rifle. Sheila's prints were found on the shotgun.
Well we have it from Steve, who knows everything that Jeremy's glove came off so he had to wipe the rifle because you couldn't have Jeremy's fingerprints all over the rifle he used all the time, that would be a dead give away ......... wouldn't it???????
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Hi Maggie :) It is possible that NB pressed the cradle with intentions of phoning someone else and had chase after Sheila for some reason. Anything is possible....its proving which is the right possibility.. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I agree Patti, there are many possibilities. 8)
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"Family support from Jeremy ? That is like asking Oliver Reed to support a recovering alcoholic"
That is your opinion on their relationship. But it may not be true. As I said try standing back and not assuming all the stories and statements made are true.
Statements made under oath ?
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Jeremy had heard rabbits the night before & loaded the gun.
How do you hear rabbits ?
depends how loud they are crunching your veg. Yes he said he took the gun out and shot rabbits -then made it safe and left it in one of the downstairs rooms. They lived on a farm so nothing unusual there.
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Adam rabbits talk to each other and sound like frogs croaking. Shows you have never lived in the Country. ;D
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Statements made under oath ?
so?
Are you saying no-one lies under oath? I every court case someone is not telling the truth, otherwise there would be no need for a trial would there? And any way JM told the newspaper that JB never admitted he did it either to her or to the court. So she was definitely telling lies at some stage?
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Jeremy said it sounded like Neville was already injured while on the phone. But there was no blood on the phone.
The pathologist said Neville would have had difficulty speaking after the brutal beating Sheila gave him.
None of it makes sense.
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jansus don' think Jeremy actually shot any rabbits he went out with the intention of doing so but had all gone when he got outside.
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Adam you posted this up yesterday and I asked you where this was documented as I have never read this before.
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Adam rabbits talk to each other and sound like frogs croaking. Shows you have never lived in the Country. ;D
I have not lived in the country.
How nice of Jeremy. After working 14 hours on the farm he wanted to do more for everyone & improve the outside of a house he did not live in. Hearing rabbits & loading the gun. But sadly not seeing any rabbits or firing any shots.
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Adam I believe Oliver Reed is dead :'(
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Adam you posted this up yesterday and I asked you where this was documented as I have never read this before.
I told you the Youtube site.
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Adam rabbits talk to each other and sound like frogs croaking. Shows you have never lived in the Country. ;D
I have though :) My dad always knows when there were rabbits in his cabbages.
Also in those days I have got to say the gun laws were not adhered to very much (at least with the people I knew) . My ex was always leaving his shot gun around not locked away . He was not the most sound of people either. Could never understand how he got a licence in the first place .
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so?
Are you saying no-one lies under oath? I every court case someone is not telling the truth, otherwise there would be no need for a trial would there? And any way JM told the newspaper that JB never admitted he did it either to her or to the court. So she was definitely telling lies at some stage?
We are back to Jeremys claim on the Official website.
Everyone is lying. Even under oath. Except Jeremy.
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Adam I suspect Jeremy just wanted an excuse to go outside probably quite an atmosphere in the kitchen over the talk of fostering the twins and he would have not felt comfortable what 24 year old guy would.
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Jeremy said it sounded like Neville was already injured while on the phone. But there was no blood on the phone.
The pathologist said Neville would have had difficulty speaking after the brutal beating Sheila gave him.
None of it makes sense.
How do you know she did not beat him after she shot him? She could have been doing that in the hours whilst the police were outside?
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I have though :) My dad always knows when there were rabbits in his cabbages.
Also in those days I have got to say the gun laws were not adhered to very much (at least with the people I knew) . My ex was always leaving his shot gun around not locked away . He was not the most sound of people either. Could never understand how he got a licence in the first place .
At the end of the day, Jeremy said himself he loaded a gun the night before the murders. He did not fire any shots. Then left the gun in the kitchen.
Coincidence ? Or part of the mountain of circumstantial evidence the judge mentioned.
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We are back to Jeremys claim on the Official website.
Everyone is lying. Even under oath. Except Jeremy.
I have not read the full transcripts but I am sure the defence had some witnesses - so not all . But unless we see what is in the original police files we wont know will we? And BW certainly changed her statements as did JM . I am not stating this as fact - but as a possibility. And the police certainly withheld evidence.
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How do you know she did not beat him after she shot him? She could have been doing that in the hours whilst the police were outside?
Not heard that before. Sheila beating Neville while the police are outside.
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At the end of the day, Jeremy said himself he loaded a gun the night before the murders. He did not fire any shots. Then left the gun in the kitchen.
Coincidence ? Or part of the mountain of circumstantial evidence the judge mentioned.
If it was part of his cunning plan it was pretty pointless really. Everyone was dead so why bother to say he loaded the gun? There was no reason to mention any gun being left out loaded. Guns were always left out round the farmhouse, it's the way farmers lived in those days.
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I did not say she did. It was a question . They were outside for hours so we don't know what was going on inside do we?
You can read JB statements in the archives - it explains about the rabbits and how he left the gun and where he left it.
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Perhaps Neville thought if there was a chance he could get past a crazy Sheila & open the front door, everything would be alright.
Although Jeremy thought Sheila was a 'nutter' & 'he didn't like her & she didn't like him'' Neville thought Jeremy would save the day.
Or perhaps that's why Ralph rushed downstairs, to unlock the door? I suppose we will never know?
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If it was part of his cunning plan it was pretty pointless really. Everyone was dead so why bother to say he loaded the gun? There was no reason to mention any gun being left out loaded. Guns were always left out round the farmhouse, it's the way farmers lived in those days.
Thought guns were usually left in the locked gun cupboard.
Jeremy left the house at 10 that evening. He would be hopeing that a tired Neville will not bother putting the loaded gun away. The 5 people were in the house. At the same time. No wonder Mugford says Jeremy said 'tonights the night' & 'it's now or never'.
Or as you said, perhaps there were lots of guns accessible.
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Thought guns were usually left in the locked gun cupboard.
Jeremy left the house at 10 that evening. He would be hopeing that a tired Neville will not bother putting the loaded gun away. The 5 people were in the house. At the same time. No wonder Mugford says Jeremy said 'tonights the night' & 'it's now or never'.
Or as you said, perhaps there were lots of guns accessible.
They should have been. But there was also a shotgun propped up against a wall. It appears that the family didn't take safety very seriously? The gun cupboard was only a cupboard under the stairs. It should have been a specially made secure cupboard with a proper lock on it.
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They should have been. But there was also a shotgun propped up against a wall. It appears that the family didn't take safety very seriously? The gun cupboard was only a cupboard under the stairs. It should have been a specially made secure cupboard with a proper lock on it.
I agree , I also used to visit a game keepers house as a child and his guns were never locked away.
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Thought guns were usually left in the locked gun cupboard.
Jeremy left the house at 10 that evening. He would be hopeing that a tired Neville will not bother putting the loaded gun away. The 5 people were in the house. At the same time. No wonder Mugford says Jeremy said 'tonights the night' & 'it's now or never'.
Or as you said, perhaps there were lots of guns accessible.
Guns were not locked away, there was no lock on the cupboard which was just really a space under the stairs with doors. There were various guns lying around the farmhouse. There were no laws in 1985 which required locked, metal gun cupboards as there are now.
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Or perhaps that's why Ralph rushed downstairs, to unlock the door? I suppose we will never know?
Unlock the door ? Was Jeremy shouting through the letterbox ?
Why was Neville found in the kitchen.Did he have to walk through the kitchen to get to the front door ? Mind you the phone was off the hook & Jeremy claims he got a call from him. So it seems that Neville was in the kitchen to use the phone.
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Unlock the door ? Was Jeremy shouting through the letterbox ?
Why was Neville found in the kitchen.Did he have to walk through the kitchen to get to the front door ? Mind you the phone was off the hook & Jeremy claims he got a call from him. So it seems that Neville was in the kitchen to use the phone.
No no. I mean to unlock the door ready for Jeremy to arrive.
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No no. I mean to unlock the door ready for Jeremy to arrive.
That's it, Neville knew Jeremy would keep things in the family & speed over in his car. Then talk Sheila around or wrestle the gun off her. What a guy.
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unfortunately as far as I understand the police told him to hold back and not get close to the farm until they arrived. Which is why he was driving slowly. So who knows what would have happened if he had just gone into the house.
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That's it, Neville knew Jeremy would keep things in the family & speed over in his car. Then talk Sheila around or wrestle the gun off her. What a guy.
do I sense a hint of sarcasm here? Theres no way you are going to change your mind is there? Can you just not open your mind to other possibilities just a bit? What harm will it do you?
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unfortunately as far as I understand the police told him to hold back and not get close to the farm until they arrived. Which is why he was driving slowly. So who knows what would have happened if he had just gone into the house.
The police told him to drive slowly to the farm ? I have not heard that before.
The police have always said about how they passed Jeremy on the way. 'If he was driving any slower he would be static' was one quote. Always thought Jeremy drove slowly to arrive after the police so he could say 'I've just arrived'.
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do I sense a hint of sarcasm here? Theres no way you are going to change your mind is there? Can you just not open your mind to other possibilities just a bit? What harm will it do you?
At the moment we have to agree to differ.
But am on here to be persuaded from current information or new information that comes to light. Not against changing my mind.
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What would be the point of that? They knew he was home at the cottage because he called them from there and he was driving his car which witnesses saw parked outside of his house. What can of cunning plan would your suggestion serve? ;D ;D
There is a very good reason to arrive after the police.
To give the impression of 'I have just arrived here myself after being woken up by Neville's call'. Once the police see this Jeremy can then start telling them about Sheila & what Neville said.
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I assume Jeremy sounded stressed & concerned when ringing the police. But he drove slowly to WHF.
Thought he would drive fast, whether he arrived before or after the police. There is only one reason to drive slowly.
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Eh? He could have done exactly the same if he arrived before or after.
If I had committed the crime I would certainly try to arrive after the police.
If I was already there the police could claim I had been there for hours & rang from WHF.
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Doubtful. Just putting the phone back on the hook would be just as quick. It is also the normal thing to do when finishing a call.
I once experienced getting the message that my then fiance had died. I got that awful message over a payphone at my school. I remember I just let the handset drop - I remember it was just dangling on its cord. I didn´t put it back on the phone, just went out of the booth. You aren´t always rational - especially in strained situations.
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There is a very good reason to arrive after the police.
To give the impression of 'I have just arrived here myself after being woken up by Neville's call'. Once the police see this Jeremy can then start telling them about Sheila & what Neville said.
He was told to wait for the police to arrive. So that could be the reason he was allegedly driving slowly?
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He was told to wait for the police to arrive. So that could be the reason he was allegedly driving slowly?
If Jeremy arrives after the police that suits Jeremy. Sadly for him the police passed his car driving very slowly.
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The pathologist said Neville would have had difficulty speaking from his teeth, neck, jaw and larynx injuries.
This means Neville phoned Jeremy before his non bullet injuries. The phone suddenly going dead suggests Sheila put her hand over the phone. Neville would automatically put the phone on the hook himself.
Would Sheila really be able to win a fight with Neville, even if Neville had been shot in the torso ? Sheila did not have a mark on her.
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Morning Adam
I have not heard anything that you post before aint life exciting ;D
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Adam why do you have to be sarcastic so much make your point and we will either agree or disagree. You seem to have a personal problem with Jeremy did you know him or what. No point in you trying to solve this case he was found GUILTY in a Court of Law and is serving life in prison what more do you want. You told me you came on this forum with an open mind I have yet to see that.
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Yeah but. Lets say at this point Neville had not been injured at all and he wanted Jeremy's support because Sheila was behaving somewhat silly with a rifle/gun.
We can speculate that if Neville used the phone to call Jeremy, she might have felt betrayed by her father just like she did when Freddie phoned her doctor when she became ill that night. Freddie clearly says in his statement that she went more berserk when I used the phone. Could this have been the case when her father phoned Jeremy? Could she have pressed the cut off button on the phone? It is possible.
What is not possible of course is that Neville had any injuries at this point. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Patti, come on - "somewhat silly with a "loaded" rifle/gun. Anyone with an ounce of gun eticate (and Nevill would have known this) would not leave anyone alone at 3am in the morning with a loaded gun (and known to be emotionally disturbed).
He would have disarmed her and then possibly called JB to come over and help after Sheila was disarmed, but still possibly upset. Not leave poor Sheila alone with a loaded gun and call his son over to face what was a significant danger.
The story about a phone call from Nevill is simply a lie.
And of course there is no evidence to prove a call from Nevill to JB took place, or strong enough evidence to show Nevill called the police (999 or otherwise).
And before anyone says there is no evidence to prove either of these calls did not take place this argument is irrelevant as JB is in prison.
Prove either call took place and JB is out, and in over 27 years this has not been possible.
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I think in a situation when someone has just grabbed a gun and you don't know what they are going to do with it you would want some support from another family member as soon as possible. At that point he probably would not believe his own daughter would actually fire at the family , perhaps he thought she might just fire "madly" at walls or furniture - or perhaps he did think she would harm herself , but at that point even he might not realise the full extent of what she was about to do. So I agree perhaps he thought he could contain her , and let JB in. But within minutes the situation changed.
I believe Nevill with his RAF and farming background would have been logical and pragmatic about dealing with an emotionally disturbed daughter with a loaded gun.
The time between a loaded gun being not active and then active is less than one second. One cannot afford any time to someone with a loaded gun.
I don't believe Nevill would have been undecided about what to do, hesitating over drawn out phone calls, leaving others in the house unprotected, running to the kitchen, etc.
Being a rifle owner myself there is no way I would ask support from another member of my family (to add living at a different address) knowing I would be bringing them in to danger. No Way!
There is always the danger Sheila could simply have shot herself. I would have disarmed my daughter to not only protect the other members of the family in the house, but also from herself.
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Why is the phone off the hook ?
Family support from Jeremy ? That is like asking Oliver Reed to support a recovering alcoholic !
;D ;D ;D
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Adam I believe Oliver Reed is dead :'(
McG, He is :'( , but nothing to do with JB on this occasion ;)
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Deja Vu,
IMO we are going round the Mulberry Bush in this latest part of this Topic.
Many of the points raised here were answered by Mike's imput to questions raised in the Threads:-
The Riddle of the Backstairs, and
The Mystery of Photograph 13 (that being the Polaroid, or Instammatic photo taken very early on the morning of the massacre, in the 'backkitchen, den, or as Jeremy referred to it, the laundry room', by one of the initial Raid Party ( at approximately 5.25am).
Further to what has been discussed hitherto, may I ask you to ponder the following:-
a) anthony Pargeter left WHF on the Thursday previous to the Shootings, taking the bolt of his gun with him.(It is thought this is surprising, since the "Glorious Twelfth" was imminent, and AP with his shooting prowess,would very likely be participating).
b) the Farm Secretary, Barbara Wilson was on leave for some time prior to the Shootings.
It seems likely to me that, in the time available until Sheila and her twins arrived at WHF, Nevill will have arranged for the enhanced Security arrangements to be carried out -viz A) The telephone Alarm System, and B) The matter of changing the lock and fitting of inner security facility, to the door to the Yard. The various other external doors were fitted with bolts T&B, and could be considered secure.
JB most likely would be aware of this. So, too, would be any Third Parties, who may well have been cognisant of another means of facilitating access, and whom may have been so prepared.
Please put 'Thinking Caps on'.
"THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS. EVER!" MRD.
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Patti, come on - "somewhat silly with a "loaded" rifle/gun. Anyone with an ounce of gun eticate (and Nevill would have known this) would not leave anyone alone at 3pm in the morning with a loaded gun (and known to be emotionally disturbed).
He would have disarmed her and then possibly called JB to come over and help after Sheila was disarmed, but still possibly upset. Not leave poor Sheila alone with a loaded gun and call his son over to face what was a significant danger.
The story about a phone call from Nevill is simply a lie.
And of course there is no evidence to prove a call from Nevill to JB took place, or strong enough evidence to show Nevill called the police (999 or otherwise).
And before anyone says there is no evidence to prove either of these calls did not take place this argument is irrelevant as JB is in prison.
Prove either call took place and JB is out, and in over 27 years this has not been possible.
Hi Nickos, ;) I accept that your reasoning has lead you to the conclusion JB is guilty however, it is only your opinion based on the evidence we know. It is just as easy to believe there is a reasonable possibility of doubt based on available evidence. You can state that the phone call categorically didn't happen but you cannot prove it.
Its true JB is in prison and has been for 28 years so why argue his guilt, he's where you want him to be, so what's the argument? Is it that you are not as certain as you claim to be and your argument is more about keeping yourself convinced than others?
No offence Nick but JB is one of the most securely locked up prisoners in this country and without a miracle will probably remain that way for the rest of his life. Isn't there a teeny weeny doubt that a young man incarcerated at 24 years old and sentenced to the rest of his life in prison may, just may be as innocent as he claims to be?. Have you seriously considered what a disaster this is for him if he is in fact innocent? :)
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Naughty Nickos :-* :-* :-* Oliver Reed gave me more laughs than Adam well maybe not ;D ;D ;D
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I believe Nevill with his RAF and farming background would have been logical and pragmatic about dealing with an emotionally disturbed daughter with a loaded gun.
The time between a loaded gun being not active and the active is less than one second. One cannot afford any time to someone with a loaded gun.
I don't believe Nevill would have been undecided about what to do, hesitating over drawn out phone calls, leaving others in the house unprotected, running to the kitchen, etc.
Being a rifle owner myself there is no way I would ask support from another member of my family (to add living at a different address) knowing I would be bringing them in to danger. No Way!
There is always the danger Sheila could simply have shot herself. I would have disarmed my daughter to not only protect the other members of the family in the house, but also from herself.
Hi Nickos have said this before but you ignore it.
The fact is Nevill was a fighter pilot in North Africa during the war, he flew for a couple of years before having an accident and breaking his back. He was trained to fly and fight in a plane not on the ground in one to one combat and not with hand guns. They needed to know how to survive if brought down in enemy territory but not how to defend yourself against your own daughter, its ludicrous to suggest what Nevill did for a couple of years 40 years before would have any bearing on how he would have behaved that day. My dad did a spell in North Africa, based in Palestine with the RAF but he was in heavy bombers, would that have helped him to deal with me in my 20s if I attacked him with a gun?, Certainly not, no doubt about that he would have tried to reason and if I was beyond reason I would have shot him.
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Tres apposite Caroline, good to see you indulging in a Bit of 'ankle biting'.
The Truth of the 'Calls' is out there, and indeed will come OUT.
Also, I am eagerly awaiting the putting up of 'Z's photo of Sheila apparently still alive with a solitary wound to her neck, ON THE BED,,!,,!
"THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS, EVER !"
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Thanks Camps but I think people forget that we're all sitting here with the benefit of hindsight and no one knows what they would do until faced with something. A few years ago my dad had a massive heart attack right in front of me and even though I had done CPR training as part of my off-shore survival course, it didn't even enter my head to try it - such was the shock. As it turned out, it wouldn't have made a great deal of difference given the damage to his heart - but I still always wonder "What if?" Before Had someone asked me what I would do in this situation prior - I'd have had all of the answers!!
So true Caroline, shock affects people in very diffdrent ways but in my experience it tends to slow us down rather than speed us up.
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The pathologist said Neville would have had difficulty speaking from his teeth, neck, jaw and larynx injuries.
This means Neville phoned Jeremy before his non bullet injuries. The phone suddenly going dead suggests Sheila put her hand over the phone. Neville would automatically put the phone on the hook himself.
Would Sheila really be able to win a fight with Neville, even if Neville had been shot in the torso ? Sheila did not have a mark on her.
If Sheila didn't have a mark on her suggesting that she didn't fight with Ralph, then the same rule must if you follow the same argument apply to Jeremy by default.
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If I had committed the crime I would certainly try to arrive after the police.
If I was already there the police could claim I had been there for hours & rang from WHF.
What, with all the doors locked from inside?
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If Jeremy arrives after the police that suits Jeremy. Sadly for him the police passed his car driving very slowly.
Why didn't he just wait a few minutes then set out? Simples. ;)
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I believe Nevill with his RAF and farming background would have been logical and pragmatic about dealing with an emotionally disturbed daughter with a loaded gun.
The time between a loaded gun being not active and the active is less than one second. One cannot afford any time to someone with a loaded gun.
I don't believe Nevill would have been undecided about what to do, hesitating over drawn out phone calls, leaving others in the house unprotected, running to the kitchen, etc.
Being a rifle owner myself there is no way I would ask support from another member of my family (to add living at a different address) knowing I would be bringing them in to danger. No Way!
There is always the danger Sheila could simply have shot herself. I would have disarmed my daughter to not only protect the other members of the family in the house, but also from herself.
Now come on dear. Hand it over......BANG!....OUCH!.
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Morning Grahame good point but I fail to see how it is relevant if Jeremy arrived a couple of minutes before the police. I would be the type if I thought a crisis was ahead of me I would make sure others arrived before me as I am hopeless in a crisis perhaps Jeremy felt the same.
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McG, He is :'( , but nothing to do with JB on this occasion ;)
I reckon if they could they'd blame that on him as well. He seems to done every other bad thing in the world. The archetypal villain as they say.
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Naughty Nickos :-* :-* :-* Oliver Reed gave me more laughs than Adam well maybe not ;D ;D ;D
He was actually a very disciplined actor believe it or not.
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Hi Grahame I had tremendous respect for Oliver Reed but when he was on a talk show drunk he was so funny and embarrassing for the talk show host and he was so nice with it. Loved him to bits.
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Morning Grahame good point but I fail to see how it is relevant if Jeremy arrived a couple of minutes before the police. I would be the type if I thought a crisis was ahead of me I would make sure others arrived before me as I am hopeless in a crisis perhaps Jeremy felt the same.
The so called "driving very slowly" business was nothing to write home about. Just think logically for a bit. Because it is obvious that some on the forum do not have that ability. What difference would it have made if he drove slowly or very fast? Absolutely NONE. He was told to wait for the police to arrive, right? So they fully expected him to be there when they arrived. No. It was just a red herring comment thrown in by the cops for good measure to make Jeremy look bad.
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Hi Grahame I had tremendous respect for Oliver Reed but when he was on a talk show drunk he was so funny and embarrassing for the talk show host and he was so nice with it. Loved him to bits.
I believe he was a very generous man as well. It is a pity that he was an alcoholic.
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Grahame it is quite stupid really had Jeremy arrived just minutes before the police his engine would have been warm his car was seen parked at his house so what is this all about them clutching at straws methinks have nothing really to link him to the crime.
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Grahame he was a very clever generous man he did not ask to be born an alcoholic :(
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Grahame he was a very clever generous man he did not ask to be born an alcoholic :(
Erm.....I'm not sure if he was "born" an alcoholic? But then I haven't read his life story. :D
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Adam please explain yourself why was it sad for Jeremy that the police overtook him. I just do not understand what point you are trying to make.
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Adam please explain yourself why was it sad for Jeremy that the police overtook him. I just do not understand what point you are trying to make.
Police are always overtaking me....And I'm not sad. ;D
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Grahame it appears that some people can drink alcohol and stop it when they wish an alcoholic can't do this once the body has had alcohol it craves it. When I said born one what I meant was some people are predisposed to this condition.
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Ha Ha Grahame of course you are not sad ;D ;D ;D
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If it was part of his cunning plan it was pretty pointless really. Everyone was dead so why bother to say he loaded the gun? There was no reason to mention any gun being left out loaded. Guns were always left out round the farmhouse, it's the way farmers lived in those days.
Jb did have a reason for mentioning the gun being left out. It was to support his story of implicating Sheila in the murders.
The JB story;
Heard rabbits.
Loaded magazine to full (even though he could have only possibly shot one with silencer off)
Shot non (implication magazine was still full)
Left out rifle with magazine (implication - it was easy for Sheila to access).
Sheila picked up said rifle and shot them all.
Another made up JB story;
My father called me to say etc....
Nevill found in kitchen (implication - fits in with father calling JB story)
phone found off the hook (implication - fits in with father calling JB story)
Nevill allegedly says please come over etc (implication Sheila did it)
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Jb did have a reason for mentioning the gun being left out. It was to support his story of implicating Sheila in the murders.
The JB story;
Heard rabbits.
Loaded magazine to full (even though he could have only possibly shot one with silencer off)
Shot non (implication magazine was still full)
Left out rifle with magazine (implication - it was easy for Sheila to access).
Sheila picked up said rifle and shot them all.
Another made up JB story;
My father called me to say etc....
Nevill found in kitchen (implication - fits in with father calling JB story)
phone found off the hook (implication - fits in with father calling JB story)
Nevill allegedly says please come over etc (implication Sheila did it)
Or not, Nickos ;) ;) ;)
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Adam please explain yourself why was it sad for Jeremy that the police overtook him. I just do not understand what point you are trying to make.
Sadly for Jeremy he could never claim he rushed to WHF to save his father that had rang him.
The police said if he was driving any slower he would be static.
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Jb did have a reason for mentioning the gun being left out. It was to support his story of implicating Sheila in the murders.
The JB story;
Heard rabbits.
Loaded magazine to full (even though he could have only possibly shot one with silencer off)
Shot non (implication magazine was still full)
Left out rifle with magazine (implication - it was easy for Sheila to access).
Sheila picked up said rifle and shot them all.
Another made up JB story;
My father called me to say etc....
Nevill found in kitchen (implication - fits in with father calling JB story)
phone found off the hook (implication - fits in with father calling JB story)
Nevill allegedly says please come over etc (implication Sheila did it)
All makes sense to me.
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Sadly for Jeremy he could never claim he rushed to WHF to save his father that had rang him.
The police said if he was driving any slower he would be static.
Yet Chris Bews has admitted that Jeremy Bamber was very keen for police to get cracking and get in to the farmhouse?
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Adam where is it documented that the police said that I have never read it infact I have never read most of the stuff you post. I must be looking at the wrong pages ;D Help!!!!
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The so called "drving very slowly" business was nothing to write home about. Just think logically for a bit. Because it is obvious that some on the forum do not have that ability. What difference would it have made if he drove slowly or very fast? Absolutely NONE. He was told to wait for the police to arrive, right? So they fully expected him to be there when they arrived. No. It was just a red herring comment thrown in by the cops for good measure to make Jeremy look bad.
If Jeremy had got to the house quickly he may have seen something that helped the police when they arrived. He could give them an update.
Or Nevill may have seen him outside & called him. Or Sheila may have seen him outside & calmed down. That was why Neville rang Jeremy wasn't it, to resolve the situation.
But Jeremy took his time arriving.
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Adam it would make sense to you as you have kept an open mind ;D
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Adam maybe if the police got to WHF quicker they may have been able to update Jeremy on the events. Why did they not enter the farmhouse sooner than they did what were they afraid of.
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Adam, you seem to have rewritten this entire case single handed. You're certainly appear to be coming out with things never previously known.
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If Jeremy was the killer it is better that he arrives after the police. He can say 'I have just rushed here after my dads phone call. What is happening ?'
He probably did say words to that effect. Trouble is, he did not rush.
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Adam where is it documented that the police said that I have never read it infact I have never read most of the stuff you post. I must be looking at the wrong pages ;D Help!!!!
But you don't like to watch Youtube videos that say horrible things about Jeremy.
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Adam don't think Jeremy arrived at the farm hours behind the police maybe minutes if that ;D Funny aint it when the police did enter the house they stated 4 murders one suicide. Wonder what changed that what is your theory on this.
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Adam why would I want to watch youtube to hear horrible things said about Jeremy you don't do too bad on that score on the forum ;D
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Yet Chris Bews has admitted that Jeremy Bamber was very keen for police to get cracking and get in to the farmhouse?
What would be the objective in the following?:
Delaying matters by not dialing 999
Delaying matters by not speeding to the scene
Attempting to pressurise the police to get in to the farmhouse asap
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Adam don't think Jeremy arrived at the farm hours behind the police maybe minutes if that ;D Funny aint it when the police did enter the house they stated 4 murders one suicide. Wonder what changed that what is your theory on this.
I believe Jeremy was a lot nearer WHF than the police. Correct me if I am wrong.
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What would be the objective in the following?:
Delaying matters by not dialing 999
Delaying matters by not speeding to the scene
Attempting to pressurise the police to get in to the farmhouse asap
Already said about driving slowly.
Was Jeremy pressurising the police ? Thought he was sat in a car out of danger. Looking very calm according to some policemen. However if he was pressurising the police it will make him look concerned.
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Adam your theory please on 4 murders one suicide. What happened to make it 5 murders.
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Adam where is this documented about Jeremy was looking very calm. How does one look calm. ;D
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Adam where is this documented about Jeremy was looking very calm. How does one look calm. ;D
Susan, I wonder how long he had to practice in front of a mirror :D
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Hello april don't forget Jeremy had to practice calm then concern then sorrow hope he did not get them mixed up and put the wrong face on at the wrong time. ;D ;D ;D
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Hello april don't forget Jeremy had to practice calm then concern then sorrow hope he did not get them mixed up and put the wrong face on at the wrong time. ;D ;D ;D
D'ya think he practiced dry retching too :D
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april I am so sorry missed that one out my mistake think he would have done ;D just recovered the numbers of the lottery from Nickos if I win I will buy Adam a suit Designer of course ;D ;D ;D
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Jb did have a reason for mentioning the gun being left out. It was to support his story of implicating Sheila in the murders.
The JB story;
Heard rabbits.
Loaded magazine to full (even though he could have only possibly shot one with silencer off)
Shot non (implication magazine was still full)
Left out rifle with magazine (implication - it was easy for Sheila to access).
Sheila picked up said rifle and shot them all.
Another made up JB story;
My father called me to say etc....
Nevill found in kitchen (implication - fits in with father calling JB story)
phone found off the hook (implication - fits in with father calling JB story)
Nevill allegedly says please come over etc (implication Sheila did it)
I should think that a gun shoved under Sheila's chin was implication enough?
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Sadly for Jeremy he could never claim he rushed to WHF to save his father that had rang him.
The police said if he was driving any slower he would be static.
He never did claim to rush over to WHF. As I said, it was just a red herring remark by the cops to make JB look guilty. Simple logic.
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All makes sense to me.
Of course it does Adam. Never mind you may learn to think logically some day? ::)
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If Jeremy had got to the house quickly he may have seen something that helped the police when they arrived. He could give them an update.
Or Nevill may have seen him outside & called him. Or Sheila may have seen him outside & calmed down. That was why Neville rang Jeremy wasn't it, to resolve the situation.
But Jeremy took his time arriving.
I other words he's damned if he got there too soon. Or he's damned if he drove there slowly. So no matter what was true everything points to JB being guilty. Not much point in putting all these arguments to then is there. ::)
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Adam maybe if the police got to WHF quicker they may have been able to update Jeremy on the events. Why did they not enter the farmhouse sooner than they did what were they afraid of.
In fact if as they said there was no response from the house and no life there then what was their excuse for waiting that long? Doesn't make sense?
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But you don't like to watch Youtube videos that say horrible things about Jeremy.
But you do it seems?
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Already said about driving slowly.
Was Jeremy pressurising the police ? Thought he was sat in a car out of danger. Looking very calm according to some policemen. However if he was pressurising the police it will make him look concerned.
But before you said he was taking charge? What has changed your opinion?
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Grahame EP waited to storm the farm house as they did see movement and knew somebody was still alive in there what other explanation can they give. Adam talks about Jeremy being slow.
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Adam where is this documented about Jeremy was looking very calm. How does one look calm. ;D
I'm afraid it is just one of those contradictory things that the guilty party are always putting out. Either he is very calm. Or he's out there dictating to officers what to do. Either way he's guilty according to them.
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But before you said he was taking charge? What has changed your opinion?
I did say he was taking charge. Then another poster said that was not the case.
He rang the police & drove very slowly to WHF.
Upon arrival he told them what Neville had said about a crazy Sheila having the gun. Then said Sheila is a 'nutter' who 'I don't like & she doesn't like me'. He then walked around the house & at some point drew a map of the inside. He then took a back seat in a car. Probably on the instruction of the police.
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I think most of us are aware of what went down - what's your point?
Just answering you're question.
My point earlier was that driving very slowly to WHF & arriving after the police, even though the police were a lot further away is suspicious. Not just to me.
Neville had rang Jeremy, he needed him. Why drive slowly ?
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Or maybe Neville didn't ring Jeremy ?
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Would the driving slowly be part of the 'mountain' of circumstantial evidence the judge mentioned ?
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Grahame EP waited to storm the farm house as they did see movement and knew somebody was still alive in there what other explanation can they give. Adam talks about Jeremy being slow.
The engaged phone line was cleared. Sheila was in there, making barking noises that sounded very similar to the family dog found underneath the bed.
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Only to you! I don't think Sheila put her hand over the phone at all!!
AS to the second question, you basically said that Neville was a frail old man the other day, because it suited the point you were trying to make at the time. However, with a chronic back problem and being severely injured, I'm sure even someone of my size would have no problem over powering him - especially in the throws of a psychotic attack and Sheila was bigger than me. We have already established that the notion of 'not a mark on her is myth!!
Barbara Wilson said in the recent documentary that Neville could restrain Sheila with one arm.
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what even if she had a gun in her hand.
how would barbra wilson know this had she ever seen him do it.
i very much doubt if he would of talked to her about it.
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Barbara Wilson said in the recent documentary that Neville could restrain Sheila with one arm.
Aye, maybe she did claim this. But that doesn't actually mean that he did or would or got a chance to or took the chance at the right time to... before he couldn't.
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i cant see how barbra willson could posbly know this.
i doubt if ralph would of disscused retrianing his daughter with her.
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Hi Nickos, ;) I accept that your reasoning has lead you to the conclusion JB is guilty however, it is only your opinion based on the evidence we know.
Maggie are you basing your reasoning on evidence we don't know?
It is just as easy to believe there is a reasonable possibility of doubt based on available evidence. You can state that the phone call categorically didn't happen but you cannot prove it.
I clearly believe the phone call didn't happen, and I don't have to prove it - JB is already on the inside. Those that believe him innocent have to prove Nevill did make a call.
Its true JB is in prison and has been for 28 years so why argue his guilt, he's where you want him to be, so what's the argument? Is it that you are not as certain as you claim to be and your argument is more about keeping yourself convinced than others?
Hey the Forum is for debate and I can keep on insisting JB did it, and you (and others) can keep on insisting he didn't.
I try and balance the debate.
No offence Nick but JB is one of the most securely locked up prisoners in this country and without a miracle will probably remain that way for the rest of his life. Isn't there a teeny weeny doubt that a young man incarcerated at 24 years old and sentenced to the rest of his life in prison may, just may be as innocent as he claims to be?. Have you seriously considered what a disaster this is for him if he is in fact innocent? :)
Yes I have considered your point (and no offence taken) , and also considered that if JB is the murderer (and of course that is my stance, along with many others) then he is in the right place.
Therefore there is no disaster.
The disaster would be in releasing a convicted murderer on a technicality.
All documents should be released. IF, and it's a big one, this proves JB innocent, and not just on some botched paperwork, then so be it, but I really don't think this is going to happen - in JB's lifetime!
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All documents should be released. IF, and it's a big one, this proves JB innocent, and not just on some botched paperwork, then so be it, but I really don't think this is going to happen - in JB's lifetime!
That makes it sound like you do believe it will happen after he's dead. Possibly after we're all dead. Sounds like you harbour some doubts about guilt to me.
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That makes it sound like you do believe it will happen after he's dead. Possibly after we're all dead. Sounds like you harbour some doubts about guilt to me.
OR hedging bets ;D
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Hello Adam
Are you saying that Sheila was alive in WHF when the police arrived on the scene with Jeremy sat in the back of the car looking calm ???
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what even if she had a gun in her hand.
how would barbra wilson know this had she ever seen him do it.
i very much doubt if he would of talked to her about it.
Barbara Wilson knew them both. It is the opinion of someone who knew both of them quite well.
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Adam I did not watch the recent documentary but from what I hear and this is from Jeremy guilty it was a total shambles and I am glad I did not watch it along with your youtube videos ;D
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Hello Adam
Are you saying that Sheila was alive in WHF when the police arrived on the scene with Jeremy sat in the back of the car looking calm ???
Yes, it was not the dog barking. It was Sheila.
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Adam I did not watch the recent documentary but from what I hear and this is from Jeremy guilty it was a total shambles and I am glad I did not watch it along with your youtube videos ;D
It was a poor documentary. But had a couple of interesting facts.
Barbara Wilson was interviewed. She has no reason to lie.
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Yippee Adam knew I would win you round in the end now we are wearing the same teeshirts ;D ;D ;) ;)
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No, that's what you would do with the full benefit of hindsight!!
No, that's what I would do if it happened. I would simply not let anyone (never mind someone emotionally disturbed) alone with a loaded gun - not for a second. it's almost impossible to believe anyone would including yourself.
Apologies for being so direct, but would you leave someone alone with a gun with other loved ones in the house and go off to make phone calls at 3am
Of course it's NOT irrelevant that there is no evidence to prove that the calls did NOT take place. If all documents were released, who knows what could be proven?
I agree that all documents should be released. But I am not convinced they will prove JB's innocence, but they may allow the defense to use a technicality.
JB's innocence and botched up paperwork are two very different things.
It's hard to win when the other side is playing with a loaded deck. I'd have thought the guilty side would be asking for ALL evidence/documents to be released to the defence, after-all if he is guilty, there will be nothing in there of any use, there will be no case to argue, you can all re-tighten your already smug smiles, gloat until your hearts are content and we can ask the last person on the forum to switch off the lights!!
You sound upset (I do not have a smug smile or am gloating), but the defense had a pretty good set of cards to start with. They just didn't play them properly - hardly the fault of the prosecution.
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Barbara Wilson knew them both. It is the opinion of someone who knew both of them quite well.
Why then would she initially say SUCH complimentary things about Jeremy, make 2 statements, ages apart, in which his name isn't mentioned, THEN give a totally polarized opinion in which it seem she's speaking about a different person.
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Yes, it was not the dog barking. It was Sheila.
And you know this HOW???
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That makes it sound like you do believe it will happen after he's dead. Possibly after we're all dead. Sounds like you harbour some doubts about guilt to me.
Roch Index 90 - this leaves some doubt, but very little.
Enough belief for me to have convicted at trial.
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The pathologist in court testified that the first bullet would have -
Stunned Sheila.
Caused a lot of bleeding.
Sheila would have been disabled by the shock of the injury.
Sheila would have been disabled by the pain of the injury.
Sheila would not be able to walk up & down the stairs after getting the first bullet.
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The engaged phone line was cleared. Sheila was in there, making barking noises that sounded very similar to the family dog found underneath the bed.
How do you know they were similar? Did you know Crispy?
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Adam I have been told that the account Barbara Wilson gave was so different to her two previous statements strange but true ;) as I said I did not watch it as I knew they would be horrible about Jeremy and I will not read any books that are horrible about Jeremy ;D ;D ;D
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And you know this HOW???
Mike T told us!! ;) ;D ::)
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Everyone. Sheila received the first and second bullet in the same room. The bullets were probably fired in quick succession.
She did not walk up the stairs after the raid team entered the house.
Let us all be sensible.
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HaHaHa HMEssex did Adam know Crispy he must have done ;D ;D ;D
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The pathologist in court testified that the first bullet would have -
Stunned Sheila.
Caused a lot of bleeding.
Sheila would have been disabled by the shock of the injury.
Sheila would have been disabled by the pain of the injury.
Sheila would not be able to walk up & down the stairs after getting the first bullet.
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Roch Index 90 - this leaves some doubt, but very little.
Enough belief for me to have convicted at trial.
Referring to same point Roch highlighted, I think all documents should be released either way - guilty or innocent - and IN his lifetime. If he was guilty, though, I don't think they would have any qualms about doing so.
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Adam I agree let us all be sensible not just the majority of us ;D
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Lets get this right - you are saying the police logs are completely wrong? There was no female and male body in the kitchen?
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It was a poor documentary. But had a couple of interesting facts.
Barbara Wilson was interviewed. She has no reason to lie.
So you're saying she lied TWICE first time round, are you?
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Hello HMEssex had Jeremy Bamber been guilty of the murders at WHF evidence would not have been destroyed or hidden why would it you only take these steps when you have something to hide.
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Sheila could not have shot herself once & then put the silencer back. Then shot herself again upstairs. There were two empty cartridges by Sheila's body anyway.
So how did her blood get on the silencer ?
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Also Adam , besides disputing the logs written by EP about the bodies found on entry -you are also disputing the logs that show two calls and the logs that report they are communicating with someone in the house. You are also saying the doctor they called in was wrong about recording the times of death as 8am.
Just to be clear.
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Is there agreement from everyone that Sheila did not shoot herself downstairs in the kitchen. Then walk upstairs into the bedroom without any of the raid team seeing her. Then shoot herself again.
The court pathologist said it was impossible.
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Also Adam , besides disputing the logs written by EP about the bodies found on entry -you are also disputing the logs that show two calls and the logs that report they are communicating with someone in the house. You are also saying the doctor they called in was wrong about recording the times of death as 8am.
Just to be clear.
Communicating. They used a loud speaker. There was no response. An officer miles away logged that as communicating.
Everyone knows about the mix up in the kitchen.
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So you're saying she lied TWICE first time round, are you?
Lied about what she would have answered police & lawyers questions.
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Is there agreement from everyone that Sheila did not shoot herself downstairs in the kitchen. Then walk upstairs into the bedroom without any of the raid team seeing her. Then shoot herself again.
The court pathologist said it was impossible.
they also produced a whole bullet that was shown as shattered on the xray from her throat. So I repeat are you saying the police logs were incorrect?
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Communicating. They used a loud speaker. There was no response. An officer miles away logged that as communicating.
Everyone knows about the mix up in the kitchen.
sorry , genuinely I don't. what mix up?
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they also produced a whole bullet that was shown as shattered on the xray from her throat. So I repeat are you saying the police logs were incorrect?
I have not seen the police logs.
But as soon as Sheila got the first bullet, she was immobilised. I would be surprised if she would be able to shoot herself again.
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sorry , genuinely I don't. what mix up?
One officer outside saw Neville's blonde hair & reported a woman in their. Upon entry they realised the body was a man. Someone reported 'one man & one woman' in the kitchen in the excitement.
As just mentioned, Sheila could not move after the first shot.
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Adam are you sure Sheila could not have moved after first shot.
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One officer outside saw Neville's blonde hair & reported a woman in their. Upon entry they realised the body was a man. Someone reported 'one man & one woman' in the kitchen in the excitement.
As just mentioned, Sheila could not move after the first shot.
Nevill didn't have blonde hair! Even if they were 'excited', the police can't have mistook two people for one!
The first shot did not kill Sheila, it may have stunned her, but it was not fatal.
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The pathologist in court testified that the first bullet would have -
Stunned Sheila.
Caused a lot of bleeding.
Sheila would have been disabled by the shock of the injury.
Sheila would have been disabled by the pain of the injury.
Sheila would not be able to walk up & down the stairs after getting the first bullet.
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Adam Ralph Bamber did not have blonde hair.
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One officer outside saw Neville's blonde hair & reported a woman in their. Upon entry they realised the body was a man. Someone reported 'one man & one woman' in the kitchen in the excitement.
As just mentioned, Sheila could not move after the first shot.
Blond ? BLOND???? FFS, he was a man in his 60's who'd probably never EVER been blond and was unlikely to have become so at that age!!!!!!!!!
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Nevill didn't have blonde hair! Even if they were 'excited', the police can't have mistook two people for one!
The first shot did not kill Sheila, it may have stunned her, but it was not fatal.
Do you think it would have become fatal if left for a few minutes ?
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4813.0.html
the copy of the log is on this thread - and this was not the only log stating this fact. When they went upstairs they only mentioned three bodies. So two "mix ups"
reference the loud hailer - why did they not use that earlier? Why wait until about 5 am
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HMEssex my words exactly to Adam.
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Blond ? BLOND???? FFS, he was a man in his 60's who'd probably never EVER been blond and was unlikely to have become so at that age!!!!!!!!!
White, fair, blonde. The officer outside saw some hair & thought Neville was a woman.
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Yes Adam what was your quote at 5.18 disappeared from my screen ;D
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Adam are you sure Sheila could not have moved after first shot.
Did you read my post ?
A pathologist, who knows a bit about this testified this in court.
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White, fair, blonde. The officer outside saw some hair & thought Neville was a woman.
There is a HUGE difference between hair of ANY colour and COLOURLESS hair.
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HaHaHa Adam you are so funny think what you are trying to say Ralph Bamber had quite long hair and as he slumped forward his hair may have covered his face blonde undeed ;D
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There is a HUGE difference between hair of ANY colour and COLOURLESS hair.
Colourless hair. Never heard that before.
Are you saying Sheila was downstairs when the police forced entry ?
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Is there agreement from everyone that Sheila did not shoot herself downstairs in the kitchen. Then walk upstairs into the bedroom without any of the raid team seeing her. Then shoot herself again.
The court pathologist said it was impossible.
Going by what the entry team reported on entering that there were 2 bodies, then a further 3 found upstairs, it's most likely they saw Nevill and Sheila downstairs.
It was is possible she moved, as the the first shot was non-fatal.
This is why the tapes and documents need to be released - in full, NOT edited.
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april I have never seen colourless hair. How would the officer know it was hair. ;D
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Colourless hair. Never heard that before.
Are you saying Sheila was downstairs when the police forced entry ?
Hair devoid of pigment.
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Going by what the entry team reported on entering that there were 2 bodies, then a further 3 found upstairs, it's most likely they saw Nevill and Sheila downstairs.
It was is possible she moved, as the the first shot was non-fatal.
This is why the tapes and documents need to be released - in full, NOT edited.
Did you not read my post ? I will resubmit it now.
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Adam sorry no agreement from me on this theory of yours.
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The pathologist in court testified that the first bullet would have -
Stunned Sheila.
Caused a lot of bleeding.
Sheila would have been disabled by the shock of the injury.
Sheila would have been disabled by the pain of the injury.
Sheila would not be able to walk up & down the stairs after getting the first bullet.
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Going by what the entry team reported on entering that there were 2 bodies, then a further 3 found upstairs, it's most likely they saw Nevill and Sheila downstairs.
It was is possible she moved, as the the first shot was non-fatal.
This is why the tapes and documents need to be released - in full, NOT edited.
Agree 90%. I'm not 100% sold on first shot downstairs. Something happened to do with Sheila being on kitchen floor though. Playing possum or some kind of struggle?
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Adam really did not know that ;D
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Adam sorry no agreement from me on this theory of yours.
You think the court pathologist is wrong. Sheila walked around the house after the first shot.
Why is there no blood running down her nightie ? Oh I forgot she changed after killing everyone.
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april I have never seen colourless hair. How would the officer know it was hair. ;D
I feel very certain you have Susan. Take a look next time you shop. There is no such thing as grey hair. It's an illusion created by a mix of hair which has lost it's pigmentation and the hair which thus far, hasn't. IMO, in that light, at that time of the year and that time of day, the police wouldn't have mistaken Nevill for a blond.
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Somebody moved. Who else would it have been?
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Adam IMO she changed before she inflicted the shots on herself :(
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Adam IMO she changed before she inflicted the shots on herself :(
Changed into her nightie.
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april I agree don't think for one moment the police thought Ralph Bamber had bonde hair that is Adam's take on it.
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Agree 90%. I'm not 100% sold on first shot downstairs. Something happened to do with Sheila being on kitchen floor though. Playing possum or some kind of struggle?
I've often thought that. But something happened right there.
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Adam correct changed into her nightie (think it was June's nightie) after her shower.
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april I agree don't think for one moment the police thought Ralph Bamber had bonde hair that is Adam's take on it.
Sheila could have been downstairs pretending to be dead. She then went upstairs & shot herself twice. That is doubtful as officers would have seen her & heard two shots. Sheila's feet would be covered in blood, glass & sugar. Why would she do this anyway ?
It is impossible for Sheila to have shot herself once in the kitchen & then gone upstairs. Anyway two cartridges were found by her body upstairs.
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Adam correct changed into her nightie (think it was June's nightie) after her shower.
That's a very good point Susan. I've often thought what a curiously old fashioned and modest nightie it was for a modern woman like Sheila. I'm of the opinion that ordinarily she would probably have slept in Chanel Number 5 or something similar, but had to wear something more conventional when she visited the farm. I probably was June's.
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Why would Sheila shoot herself after the police arrive ? The police may stop her shooting herself. Meaning she has not carried out her suicide plan.
Sheila was already dead in the main bedroom. Two cartridges by her body.
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Adam I read that most of the debris found on the kitchen floor is when the raid team knocked over the table. Have you not seen the socks with blood on them at the side of Sheila's body.
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Adam I read that most of the debris found on the kitchen floor is when the raid team knocked over the table. Have you not seen the socks with blood on them at the side of Sheila's body.
Raid team. Clumsy are'nt they ?
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Sheila could have been downstairs pretending to be dead. She then went upstairs & shot herself twice. That is doubtful as officers would have seen her & heard two shots. Sheila's feet would be covered in blood, glass & sugar. Why would she do this anyway ?
It is impossible for Sheila to have shot herself once in the kitchen & then gone upstairs. Anyway two cartridges were found by her body upstairs.
Adam Sheila could initially have worn those blue socks when she went downstairs if the floor was cold.
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Adam Sheila could initially have worn those blue socks when she went downstairs if the floor was cold.
Or even the shoes/slippers that we didn't get to see !
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Yes. People in a killing rage are often worried about cold feet in August.
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Raid team. Clumsy are'nt they ?
And there in lays the beginning of many of the problems ;D
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Sheila could have been downstairs pretending to be dead. She then went upstairs & shot herself twice. That is doubtful as officers would have seen her & heard two shots. Sheila's feet would be covered in blood, glass & sugar. Why would she do this anyway ?
It is impossible for Sheila to have shot herself once in the kitchen & then gone upstairs. Anyway two cartridges were found by her body upstairs.
So you've read the 'playing possum' posts!
We don't know if the police heard shots.
Why would she do what?
Recent photos show Sheila's feet were not clean, when up until then the 'guilties' have always argued that her feet were clean.
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Knocking everything over. Getting the facts wrong.
Silly raid team.
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Yes. People in a killing rage are often worried about cold feet in August.
If you read the forecast for that night,,it was quite cool for the time of the year.Not only that,the kitchen/scullery/butlers pantry area could have had quarry tiles on the floor which are cold,especially if you're bare-footed.
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So you've read the 'playing possum' posts!
We don't know if the police heard shots.
Why would she do what?
Recent photos show Sheila's feet were not clean, when up until then the 'guilties' have always argued that her feet were clean.
After the break in there were a lot of the raid team in the house. No one has ever said they heard shots.
Why would Sheila pretend to be dead & shoot herself twice upstairs after the police arrive ?
There were apparently some speks of blood on Sheilas feet. She was found in the main bedroom where there had been two shootings, so not surprising.
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Knocking everything over. Getting the facts wrong.
Silly raid team.
Indeed!
However, facts seemed to have changed, once everything changed from 4 murders, 1 suicide to 5 murders.
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Indeed!
However, facts seemed to have changed, once everything changed from 4 murders, 1 suicide to 5 murders.
The dodgy EP must have told the raid team to change their statements so they could nail Jeremy.
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Would the driving slowly be part of the 'mountain' of circumstantial evidence the judge mentioned ?
Only because someone has taken something quite innocent and made it into circumstantial evidence. If Jeremy had been found not guilty people wouldn't think twice about it. Just think of all the lings you do every day quite innocently. Those things would be magnified dramatically if something serious happened. Let me give you an example.
We looked after our grandson all night the other night so that my son and daughter in-law could have a rest. The next day they took him to A&E because they thought he was sick. He was of course ok. They were just panicking.
But the first thing my son said to us was, "Did you all wash your hands before you handled him?". Forgetting that we had brought up three children ourselves.
But can you see what I mean about everyday innocent things turning into suspected serious things? Well the same has probably happened here. Why was Jeremy driving slowly? Probably waiting for the police. Why didn't he turn up before the police? Was it because they would suspect him? But in reality both these things were done quite innocently by Jeremy. Quite probably the suspicion is all in the heads of the individual readers?
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Adam you still have not given me your views on 4 murders and one suicide as the police reported it as being.
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............................
Why would Sheila pretend to be dead & shoot herself twice upstairs after the police arrive ?.........................................
You would need access to the inner workings of the mind of a paranoid schizophrenic in order to answer that one.
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Adam you still have not given me your views on 4 murders and one suicide as the police reported it as being.
The police changed their mind.
You have my scenario.
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The dodgy EP must have told the raid team to change their statements so they could nail Jeremy.
Who controls who? Why were Special Branch officers present?
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It was a poor documentary. But had a couple of interesting facts.
Barbara Wilson was interviewed. She has no reason to lie.
But she did change her testimony from the trial. WHY? if she had no reason to lie? Perhaps she was given a reason to lie?
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Who controls who? Why were Special Branch officers present?
Special branch present. No idea.
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Adam Jeremy driving slowly did not make him a murderer just dreading what he would find at the farm and was wanting the police there first to make any awful finds.
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Adam guess you need to do more research ;D
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And you know this HOW???
Mike said so. But Adam is adamant that the dog was silent. So by default he must say it was Sheila barking. ;)
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Adam Jeremy driving slowly did not make him a murderer just dreading what he would find at the farm and was wanting the police there first to make any awful finds.
So not so brave & macho then.
Guess Neville should'nt have phoned him.
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Adam what evidence made the police change their mind they don't just change their mind without evidence.
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The pathologist in court testified that the first bullet would have -
Stunned Sheila.
Caused a lot of bleeding.
Sheila would have been disabled by the shock of the injury.
Sheila would have been disabled by the pain of the injury.
Sheila would not be able to walk up & down the stairs after getting the first bullet.
In actual fact I believe the pathologist said that she would have been able to walk around with such an injury?
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Mike said so. But Adam is adamant that the dog was silent. So by default he must say it was Sheila barking. ;)
BT freed up the phone line. All they could hear was a dog barking.
Or was it Sheila barking ?
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So not so brave & macho then.
Guess Neville should'nt have phoned him.
Who ever suggested, OTHER than yourself, that he was either?????
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Adam I have never thought Jeremy Bamber was brave and macho infact I thought more of a wimp and not capable of murder.Has anyone said Jeremy was brave and macho.
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In actual fact the believe the pathologist said that she would have been able to walk around with such an injury?
The court pathologist did not say that under oath.
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Adam I have never thought Jeremy Bamber was brave and macho infact I thought more of a wimp and not capable of murder.Has anyone said Jeremy was brave and macho.
Why would Neville ring him in such a serious situation if Jeremy was going to hide ?
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Adam I have never thought Jeremy Bamber was brave and macho infact I thought more of a wimp and not capable of murder.Has anyone said Jeremy was brave and macho.
Why would Neville ring him in such a serious situation if Jeremy was going to hide ?
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The court pathologist did not say that under oath.
But if he was known to have said it, it stands to reason that he must have thought it.
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But if he was known to have said it, it stands to reason that he must have thought it.
Known to have said it ?
So the pathologist lied under oath ?
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Communicating. They used a loud speaker. There was no response. An officer miles away logged that as communicating.
Everyone knows about the mix up in the kitchen.
He logged it as "conversation".
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White, fair, blonde. The officer outside saw some hair & thought Neville was a woman.
Except it doesn't say that. He logged one woman and one man.
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Why would Neville ring him in such a serious situation if Jeremy was going to hide ?
The first 'port of call' is often family. Then emergency services.
Jeremy did not hide - he went to the farm.
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Adam what makes you think Jeremy was hiding. When Ralph phoned Jeremy I don't think at that stage Ralph knew the seriousness of the situation and who else would he phone but his son his nearest and dearest.
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You think the court pathologist is wrong. Sheila walked around the house after the first shot.
Why is there no blood running down her nightie ? Oh I forgot she changed after killing everyone.
If Sheila didn't move after the first shot then why did Jeremy find it necessary to shoot her again?
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Adam what makes you think Jeremy was hiding. When Ralph phoned Jeremy I don't think at that stage Ralph knew the seriousness of the situation and who else would he phone but his son his nearest and dearest.
When Ralph phoned ? There is no evidence he did. Only Jeremy is claiming this.
The only phone calls that certainly happened were Jeremy to Mugford at 3am & Jeremy to the police afterwards.
Mugford claims Jeremy said 'everything is going well'. Jeremy when asked when interviewed just said 'no comment'.
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If Sheila didn't move after the first shot then why did Jeremy find it necessary to shoot her again?
She was still alive, breathing etc.
Based on what the pathologist testified, I would be surprised if Sheila would be able to shoot herself again.
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When Ralph phoned ? There is no evidence he did. Only Jeremy is claiming this.
The only phone calls that certainly happened were Jeremy to Mugford at 3am & Jeremy to the police afterwards.
Mugford claims Jeremy said 'everything is going well'. Jeremy when asked when interviewed just said 'no comment'.
But we only have Julie's word for what was actually said.
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Adam When Jeremy phoned Julie he told her something was wrong at the farm and she told him to go back to his bed as that is what she was going to do. Steve UK who thinks very much like you said she was quite right going back to bed as she was tired and down in London so what could she do.
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But we only have Julie's word for what was actually said.
Jeremy had the chance to give his version when the police asked him.
The interview transcripts show he said 'no comment'.
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Knocking everything over. Getting the facts wrong.
Silly raid team.
Well according to you they got the facts wrong. I have always contended that they got the facts right first time and then changed those facts so that they fitted into their errors that night. They did this in the briefing that happened. That is when everything in their individual notebooks were changed in order that they all agree with oneanother.
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Adam what new evidence came to light to make the police change their mind on 4 murders one suicide to 5 murders.
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Adam When Jeremy phoned Julie he told her something was wrong at the farm and she told him to go back to his bed as that is what she was going to do. Steve UK who thinks very much like you said she was quite right going back to bed as she was tired and down in London so what could she do.
Wrong.
His 10am call Julie said that Jeremy said 'tonights the night' & 'it's now or never'. Julie told him to go back to bed & not be stupid.
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The dodgy EP must have told the raid team to change their statements so they could nail Jeremy.
They must have changed them. This is a fact. Also where is Taff Jones' notebook? This "harmonizing" happened in the debriefing room. This how the police work.
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Adam where did this information come from Julie must have done.
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Known to have said it ?
So the pathologist lied under oath ?
Might have depended on how the question was put........................and speaking of lying, which of BW's statements was a lie. ONE has to be.
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So not so brave & macho then.
Guess Neville should'nt have phoned him.
No he wasn't you are right. That is why he could not have murdered 5 people.
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Wrong.
His 10am call Julie said that Jeremy said 'tonights the night' & 'it's now or never'. Julie told him to go back to bed & not be stupid.
Wrong!! How could it be 10am?
How could Julie be so stupid?
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Adam what new evidence came to light to make the police change their mind on 4 murders one suicide to 5 murders.
Have you not read up on the case ?
Silencer, Mugford, suspicious relatives, hacksaw, Jeremys indifference & spending sprees, inheritance money, only two possible suspects, no proof of phone call from Neville etc.
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BT freed up the phone line. All they could hear was a dog barking.
Or was it Sheila barking ?
They heard voices as well.
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Might have depended on how the question was put........................and speaking of lying, which of BW's statements was a lie. ONE has to be.
It is up to the highly paid defence to get the answer they want from the pathologist. They didn't.
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Have you not read up on the case ?
Silencer, Mugford, suspicious relatives, hacksaw, Jeremys indifference & spending sprees, inheritance money, only two possible suspects, no proof of phone call from Neville etc.
And as one can't prove a negative, there's no proof either that there wasn't.
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When Ralph phoned ? There is no evidence he did. Only Jeremy is claiming this.
The only phone calls that certainly happened were Jeremy to Mugford at 3am & Jeremy to the police afterwards.
Mugford claims Jeremy said 'everything is going well'. Jeremy when asked when interviewed just said 'no comment'.
He also said "Something is wrong at the farm".
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They heard voices as well.
Did they now ? Now that is bombshell evidence. Pity it wasn't used in court.
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Adam you have caught me out I have not read this case up I am waiting for Mason Doyle's book because I think his research will have been so much more accurate than you or I and I am looking forward to reading facts instead of all your hearsay ;D
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He also said "Something is wrong at the farm".
Correct.
The judge could not believe Jeremy phoned Mugford. Especially before phoning the police.
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It is up to the highly paid defence to get the answer they want from the pathologist. They didn't.
Which points to what has been said before. The defence wasn't as good as the prosecution, but that doesn't make the defendant guilty.
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Did they now ? Now that is bombshell evidence. Pity it wasn't used in court.
Its in their statements.
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Adam you have caught me out I have not read this case up I am waiting for Mason Doyle's book because I think his research will have been so much more accurate than you or I and I am looking forward to reading facts instead of all your hearsay ;D
Is he a good writer ?
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Which points to what has been said before. The defence wasn't as good as the prosecution, but that doesn't make the defendant guilty.
That is Jeremys tough luck. He is lucky he could afford the best available at the time.
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Have you not read up on the case ?
Silencer, Mugford, suspicious relatives, hacksaw, Jeremys indifference & spending sprees, inheritance money, only two possible suspects, no proof of phone call from Neville etc.
only two suspects? Did you know the family had had threats from other persons? And that there was a room locked from the inside that had access to a roof hatch. Sorry of course you would . And you would have seen the two phone call logs at 3.26 and 3.36 and read how it is possible the EP changed them to look at if they were merged. If they were the same log then they would have had no reason to keep them from the jury at the original trial would they? Also if they mistook B for a female why did they say male first? One male one female in the kitchen. And why does the police log say in conversation with someone in the house. Not trying to communicate with? So many errors according to you. Its a shambles is it not.
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Keep an open mind, Adam :)
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Correct.
The judge could not believe Jeremy phoned Mugford. Especially before phoning the police.
Refresh my memory, please. Did the judge say he didn't believe Jeremy had phoned Julie?
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Adam He is the best and most of his books are based on true life crime. Go to his profile and read his introduction to the forum and if I was Jeremy I would be delighted that such an highly respected writer wanted to write a book about me and the murders at WHF.
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BT freed up the phone line. All they could hear was a dog barking.
Or was it Sheila barking ?
It was the dog saying--------s a u s a g e s. ;D
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That is Jeremys tough luck. He is lucky he could afford the best available at the time.
Yes. 28 years worth.
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I have a question for anybody ( with a serious answer :) ) were the police able to surround the whole house so that they would definitely see if anyone else left the house during the time they were there?
I know they said the house was all locked up and all the windows - but as they made so many errors in their logs I was just wondering?
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Correct.
The judge could not believe Jeremy phoned Mugford. Especially before phoning the police.
Well either he did or he didn't. Make up your mind which.
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Adam
you never answered my question about why the police waited for HOURS outside if there was absolutely no movement and no sound except for the dog ( in your view they were all dead) When they knew about two young children in the house . Remember this was before the days of H&S assesments. If that had been your family inside how would you have felt about that?
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Adam
you never answered my question about why the police waited for HOURS outside if there was absolutely no movement and no sound except for the dog ( in your view they were all dead) When they knew about two young children in the house . Remember this was before the days of H&S assesments. If that had been your family inside how would you have felt about that?
Yes why wait so long if children were at risk? Was that the mistake the cops were covering up?
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You know when you haven't watched a soap for ages and by accident you happen to catch an episode (cuz there's nowt else on) and it's like they haven't moved on - that's what this thread reminds me of (Adam) ;D ;D ;D ;D
At least, he's keeping us on our toes! :)
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jansus he has never answered many of my questions i.e. what evidence came to light to make EP change their mind about 4 murders one suicide to 5 murders I have asked him that three times I have answered everyone of his posts but he is very selective which posts he responds to.
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At least, he's keeping us on our toes! :)
Perhaps he thinks there's a prize for the person who can ask the same questions in 1000 different ways ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I have a question for anybody ( with a serious answer :) ) were the police able to surround the whole house so that they would definitely see if anyone else left the house during the time they were there?
I know they said the house was all locked up and all the windows - but as they made so many errors in their logs I was just wondering?
Apart from the scruffy individual seen walking across a field, then I haven't heard of anyone else in the vicinity.
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HMEssex I think he is bringing me to my knees ;D never mind keeping me on my toes ;D I am wilting by the minute.
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april ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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April, Susan and Caroline, what can I say? ;) :D
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It's like groundhog day!!
I'm with you!
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HMEssex say nothing leave it upto Adam who is away googling just now ;D ;D ;D
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I'm with you!
Ain't it just :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Ain't it just :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Girls, we must gird our loins and stick together ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It's like groundhog day!!
oh I don't know- that's one of my favourite films. ;D and this is not one of my favourite threads.It must be even more wearing for those of you have been here longer. I am all up for discussion - but its not a discussion if the other person is not even willing to listen. It makes you feel like shouting!!!!or writing in CAPITALS ;)
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Well either he did or he didn't. Make up your mind which.
Jeremy phoned Mugford twice on the night. As witnessed by Mugfords flatmates. Jeremy has never denied making these calls.
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Girls, we must gird our loins and stick together ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Right you are. I'm girding right now!! :)
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Adam
you never answered my question about why the police waited for HOURS outside if there was absolutely no movement and no sound except for the dog ( in your view they were all dead) When they knew about two young children in the house . Remember this was before the days of H&S assesments. If that had been your family inside how would you have felt about that?
The police had to wait for the raid team.
The raid team went in when there was daylight.
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jansus he has never answered many of my questions i.e. what evidence came to light to make EP change their mind about 4 murders one suicide to 5 murders I have asked him that three times I have answered everyone of his posts but he is very selective which posts he responds to.
I did answer it. Straight away. Go back and check.
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Apart from the scruffy individual seen walking across a field, then I haven't heard of anyone else in the vicinity.
but if the farm was not surrounded then how did they know no one else was about? I was just reading that very interesting thread about the threats the family had received and that reports about the inside locked room. In normal circumstances if a case became murder the police would look at anyone with a motive -it seems that the JB scenario was the only one they considered . Now if I believed the house was totally secure - then fair enough - but I am not sure of any of their logs now. The family just handed it to them on a plate , and covered up the fact they had got rid of nearly all forensics.
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Yes. 28 years worth.
Jeremy had the best lawyers available. Straight away they knew it was going to be an extremley difficult case to win.
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but if the farm was not surrounded then how did they know no one else was about? I was just reading that very interesting thread about the threats the family had received and that reports about the inside locked room. In normal circumstances if a case became murder the police would look at anyone with a motive -it seems that the JB scenario was the only one they considered . Now if I believed the house was totally secure - then fair enough - but I am not sure of any of their logs now. The family just handed it to them on a plate , and covered up the fact they had got rid of nearly all forensics.
But Neville rang Jeremy saying Sheila has gone crazy and had got the gun.
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The police had to wait for the raid team.
The raid team went in when there was daylight.
wow. Even though they knew guns may be involved at 3.26 ( the first phone log) .Sorry that seems incredible to me. All those burly policemen and those two poor souls inside. I am sorry don't buy that.
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But Neville rang Jeremy saying Sheila has gone crazy and had got the gun.
Adam! Methinks you're extracting urine. ENOUGH!!!!!
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But Neville rang Jeremy saying Sheila has gone crazy and had got the gun.
????? you said he did not. Unlike you I am considering all angles. Like I said I am trying to keep an open mind
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Adam I am sorry to disagree I don't think Jeremy's Defence Team thought for one moment they had a difficult case to win as they did not know what had been going on behind the scenes and they knew that no forensic evidence existed and let us not forget it was not a majority verdict so they were not all as convinced as you.
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????? you said he did not. Unlike you I am considering all angles. Like I said I am trying to keep an open mind
I agree that Jeremy is saying it. He has been saying it for 28 years.
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Adam! Methinks you're extracting urine. ENOUGH!!!!!
Don't worry I am girding! I have always been honest about my reason for being on the forum. I will always keep an open mind - But I know which way I am more inclined to believe. Unlike some others whos motives seem to be to just wind up others.
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Adam I am sorry to disagree I don't think Jeremy's Defence Team thought for one moment they had a difficult case to win as they did not know what had been going on behind the scenes and they knew that no forensic evidence existed and let us not forget it was not a majority verdict so they were not all as convinced as you.
Try reading the best reviewed current book about the case.
The defence knew it would be difficult.
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I agree that Jeremy is saying it. He has been saying it for 28 years.
wonder why. In your scenario its not true . His father would have been dead and could not of made the call - so why bother to say it? That's you not JB.
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Don't worry I am girding! I have always been honest about my reason for being on the forum. I will always keep an open mind - But I know which way I am more inclined to believe. Unlike some others whos motives seem to be to just wind up others.
Sorry Jansus, it wasn't in any way directed at you. I can tell the difference between an open mind and a wind up :D :D :D
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Adam I am sorry to disagree I don't think Jeremy's Defence Team thought for one moment they had a difficult case to win as they did not know what had been going on behind the scenes and they knew that no forensic evidence existed and let us not forget it was not a majority verdict so they were not all as convinced as you.
Also I guess this is in the days before the CPS so things were very different then( not sure if better or worse really? :-\ )
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wonder why. In your scenario its not true . His father would have been dead and could not of made the call - so why bother to say it? That's you not JB.
Yes that is my scenario. Matching the crime scene & bullet allocation.
Do you have a scenario ?
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Adam please tell me which book is that a recently written one.
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Sorry Jansus, it wasn't in any way directed at you. I can tell the difference between an open mind and a wind up :D :D :D
no that's ok I know it was not intended for me :)
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but if the farm was not surrounded then how did they know no one else was about? I was just reading that very interesting thread about the threats the family had received and that reports about the inside locked room. In normal circumstances if a case became murder the police would look at anyone with a motive -it seems that the JB scenario was the only one they considered . Now if I believed the house was totally secure - then fair enough - but I am not sure of any of their logs now. The family just handed it to them on a plate , and covered up the fact they had got rid of nearly all forensics.
Nevill and June had been threatened, due to his work as a Magistrate - bullets were thrown at them, whilst sitting in a car park. Nevill also received a 'questionable' phone call.
The farmhouse was secured from the inside - so how could anyone get out?
The police got rid of most of the forensics, at the time. The family just 'discovered' something that wasn't there when police searched the house.
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on - 19 Feb 2009This is an excellent who-dun-it true life crime mystery. This is an excellent non-biased book about Jeremy Bamber and the murder at White House Farm. Did Jeremy Bamber carry out this awful massacre of his family - although I believe he may well have, am not entirely convinced. If he did, then I feel sure his girlfriend at that time Julie Mugford, knew more than she let on and only went to the police when he dumped her as she did not want to be implicated in any way. Also, if he did commit the crime he would not have been able to say she had known of his plans, otherwise that would have been admitting his guilt. I was very concerned when reading this very intriguing story that the young Caffell children should ever have been allowed to stay in a house where guns were kept loaded or unloaded in shower rooms, kitchen, den, etc., although no comment was ever made in book about this. I found this book almost impossible to put down, extremely well-written and easy and straight-forward to read. Would recommend to all real-life crime readers - best book I've read in years.
For Susan
One of the reviews on Amazon. All the reviews gave it 5 stars.
Blood Relations. Jeremy Bamber & the Whit House Farm murders.
Roger Wilkes.
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Great account of the White House Farm Shootings of 1985. Its a classic account of a whodunit ; either Jeremy Bamber or his mentally ill sister Sheila, of whom only one could have caused the deaths since Sheila was found dead herself. The book leaves you in no doubt that Jeremy Bamber is guilty but still very much leads you to make your own judgement based on the evidence thoroughly presented. Its very obvious based on the circumstantial evidence that Bamber is guilty. It would surely simply be too much for so many people to be biased or self interested, including the police, family of those murdered and primary witness Julie Mugford, who attested that Jeremy had admitted wanting to kill his family. This is one of those very interesting cases whereby had the police done a better job, the rightful killer (Bamber or Sheila) would have been found from day 1. As it was with no DNA evidence in 1985, exhibits not found by the police (the rifle moderator) at the start and a bungled investigation, the truth may never be known with any certainty. One thing for sure is that Jeremy Bamber knows himself! Understand that a new book is to come out soon by former MP Andrew Hunter (pro Bamber) called 'beyond reasonable doubt'.Was this review helpful?HelpfulNot Helpful
Another review.
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Jeremy had the best lawyers available. Straight away they knew it was going to be an extremley difficult case to win.
I beg to differ. I suggest that they thought he wouldn't be convicted on such shallow evidence?
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Nevill and June had been threatened, due to his work as a Magistrate - bullets were thrown at them, whilst sitting in a car park. Nevill also received a 'questionable' phone call.
The farmhouse was secured from the inside - so how could anyone get out?
The police got rid of most of the forensics, at the time. The family just 'discovered' something that wasn't there when police searched the house.
So do you think the thread about the inside locked room and the roof hatch was not true? I still believe sB did it was just surprised that the family had other threats . Like I said I have an open mind but if we accept JB is telling the truth then there was no one else involved. Also the logs the police made are so inconsistent it makes it hard to establish the facts.
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on - 19 Feb 2009This is an excellent who-dun-it true life crime mystery. This is an excellent non-biased book about Jeremy Bamber and the murder at White House Farm. Did Jeremy Bamber carry out this awful massacre of his family - although I believe he may well have, am not entirely convinced. If he did, then I feel sure his girlfriend at that time Julie Mugford, knew more than she let on and only went to the police when he dumped her as she did not want to be implicated in any way. Also, if he did commit the crime he would not have been able to say she had known of his plans, otherwise that would have been admitting his guilt. I was very concerned when reading this very intriguing story that the young Caffell children should ever have been allowed to stay in a house where guns were kept loaded or unloaded in shower rooms, kitchen, den, etc., although no comment was ever made in book about this. I found this book almost impossible to put down, extremely well-written and easy and straight-forward to read. Would recommend to all real-life crime readers - best book I've read in years.
For Susan
One of the reviews on Amazon. All the reviews gave it 5 stars.
Blood Relations. Jeremy Bamber & the Whit House Farm murders.
Roger Wilkes.
If it was unbiased how come you believe Bamber to be guilty then?
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Adam - are you c+p from amazon by any chance?
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010who could forget this awful crime, a very well written book, couldnt put it down, very factual, allows you to make your own mind up, remember this case well, well i did back then, and my opinion is the same now, as far as im concerned, common sense prevailed at the trial and bamber was found guilty of all the murders, what i do believe is that jeremy believes he is innocent and will fight to the end to prove it, if he secures an appeal in the future and is released, it will be on a technicality, wait and see, i hope he rots in jail then onto hell. Rest in peace sheila, nicholas, daniel, neville and june.7 of 10 people found this review helpfulHelpful
Another review.
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on - 19 Feb 2009This is an excellent who-dun-it true life crime mystery. This is an excellent non-biased book about Jeremy Bamber and the murder at White House Farm. Did Jeremy Bamber carry out this awful massacre of his family - although I believe he may well have, am not entirely convinced. If he did, then I feel sure his girlfriend at that time Julie Mugford, knew more than she let on and only went to the police when he dumped her as she did not want to be implicated in any way. Also, if he did commit the crime he would not have been able to say she had known of his plans, otherwise that would have been admitting his guilt. I was very concerned when reading this very intriguing story that the young Caffell children should ever have been allowed to stay in a house where guns were kept loaded or unloaded in shower rooms, kitchen, den, etc., although no comment was ever made in book about this. I found this book almost impossible to put down, extremely well-written and easy and straight-forward to read. Would recommend to all real-life crime readers - best book I've read in years.
For Susan
One of the reviews on Amazon. All the reviews gave it 5 stars.
Blood Relations. Jeremy Bamber & the Whit House Farm murders.
Roger Wilkes.
They are just random reviews, don't really mean much. Wilkes's book was interesting but was written a long time ago, far more evidence has come to light since this book was written.
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You base all of your posts on it - try diversifying and reading some of the statements and transcripts in the archives and you would be better informed!!
No I do not. I have watched all the Youtube videos, all the internet articles, interview transcripts. Witness Statements, court appeal summaries, the UK Justice Forum, this forum.
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Thank you Adam very kind of you to give me the reviews on the RW book. But I am sorry to disappoint you I have no interest whatsoever in reading it 19 years has gone by and so much has changed. Now Mason Doyles book has the latest evidence that has been uncovered or released either by accident or otherwise maybe new witnesses have come forward and the book is being approached from a totally different angle. We are on this forum really excited about the book and he has told us the book is based on FACTS not hearsay or gossip so when you have read it you may change your way of thinking on the Jeremy Bamber case.
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Great account of the White House Farm Shootings of 1985. Its a classic account of a whodunit ; either Jeremy Bamber or his mentally ill sister Sheila, of whom only one could have caused the deaths since Sheila was found dead herself. The book leaves you in no doubt that Jeremy Bamber is guilty but still very much leads you to make your own judgement based on the evidence thoroughly presented. Its very obvious based on the circumstantial evidence that Bamber is guilty. It would surely simply be too much for so many people to be biased or self interested, including the police, family of those murdered and primary witness Julie Mugford, who attested that Jeremy had admitted wanting to kill his family. This is one of those very interesting cases whereby had the police done a better job, the rightful killer (Bamber or Sheila) would have been found from day 1. As it was with no DNA evidence in 1985, exhibits not found by the police (the rifle moderator) at the start and a bungled investigation, the truth may never be known with any certainty. One thing for sure is that Jeremy Bamber knows himself! Understand that a new book is to come out soon by former MP Andrew Hunter (pro Bamber) called 'beyond reasonable doubt'.Was this review helpful?HelpfulNot Helpful
Another review.
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This review agrees with the judge saying there is literally a mountain of circimstantial evidence against Jeremy.
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wow. Even though they knew guns may be involved at 3.26 ( the first phone log) .Sorry that seems incredible to me. All those burly policemen and those two poor souls inside. I am sorry don't buy that.
Cowards,Jansus. They should have stormed the farmhouse as soon as they got there,and sod the consequences. Look at all the time that was wasted outside.What was that about ?
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This review agrees with the judge saying there is literally a mountain of circimstantial evidence against Jeremy.
You need to get up to speed, I reckon.
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Adam I am delighted to hear that the Judge agrees with everything.
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Thank you Adam very kind of you to give me the reviews on the RW book. But I am sorry to disappoint you I have no interest whatsoever in reading it 19 years has gone by and so much has changed. Now Mason Doyles book has the latest evidence that has been uncovered or released either by accident or otherwise maybe new witnesses have come forward and the book is being approached from a totally different angle. We are on this forum really excited about the book and he has told us the book is based on FACTS not hearsay or gossip so when you have read it you may change your way of thinking on the Jeremy Bamber case.
So you are commentating on two books you have not read. Saying one is based on hearsay & gossip & the other is based on facts.
What new evidence ?
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Adam stop living in the past with these books and look forward to thee book which is due out in early Spring written by Mason Doyle ;) ;) ;)
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Adam stop living in the past with these books and look forward to thee book which is due out in early Spring written by Mason Doyle ;) ;) ;)
I am living in the present & do not get my information from one pro Bamber forum. Unlike you.
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Adam stop putting words in my mouth I said nothing of the kind. All I said that 19 years on new evidence has come to light and will all be disclosed in Mason Doyle's book and if you want to know what it is buy the book when it is published.
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So you are commentating on two books you have not read. Saying one is based on hearsay & gossip & the other is based on facts.
What new evidence ?
So why are you quoting reviews from Amazon as gospel? ::)
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Adam so pleased to hear you visit other sites unlike me who sticks with this one.
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I am living in the present & do not get my information from one pro Bamber forum. Unlike you.
that's personal >:( How do you know what research someone else has done? Another assumption.
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Adam stop putting words in my mouth I said nothing of the kind. All I said that 19 years on new evidence has come to light and will all be disclosed in Mason Doyle's book and if you want to know what it is buy the book when it is published.
You said I am living in the past. I have read all the latest articles.
What other books were there for me to read ? At least I read a book. An unbiased one as well. Rather than just reading from a pro Jeremy forum. Not reading other articles in case I get upset.
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that's personal >:( How do you know what research someone else has done? Another assumption.
Susan says she gets all her information on here and does not read anything else.
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All the reviews of the book say Jeremy is guilty.
To be honest it is pretty obvious. A conviction & lots of failed appeals.
But Jeremy will keep appealing & may get off on a technicality. Good luck to him.
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So why are you quoting reviews from Amazon as gospel? ::)
Never said they were gospel.
Someone asked me about it so I posted some reviews Not selected reviews as they all gave the book 5 stars.
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Adam I am not saying you should not read books on the murders at WHF but just don't expect me to read them I am very happy with the knowledge I have on this case and maybe I am not quite as forthcoming as you with my theories but I do have them. I do not get upset at anything I read about other people's views on Jeremy Bamber as they are quite meaningless to me. I have other sources where I get excellent information on the WHF murders but I am very selective where I get my information from but I am not condeming you for reading outdated books stop going on the defensive so much.
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By the way I would not give you a scenario because I am not a ballistics expert . But timing wise I do believe that SB had time to shoot them all between 3.26 and when the police got there - but I do believe she was probably alive whilst they were outside . I am not going to speculate on the order or when she shot herself because we do not have full access to all the police logs ( which they appear to have changed anyway.) So that's all the answer you will get from me. But I will say none of your posts have managed to convince me of anything else .Mainly because they are based on hearsay and character assumptions. Even if someone is a bad person , it does not make them a murderer. But I do not want JB out on a technicality - I would really like someone to come forward and tell the truth. Oh and I would add from other research I have done the police even mislead the jury regarding the ballistics evidence so even that can not be relied upon.
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Adam I am not saying you should not read books on the murders at WHF but just don't expect me to read them I am very happy with the knowledge I have on this case and maybe I am not quite as forthcoming as you with my theories but I do have them. I do not get upset at anything I read about other people's views on Jeremy Bamber as they are quite meaningless to me. I have other sources where I get excellent information on the WHF murders but I am very selective where I get my information from but I am not condeming you for reading outdated books stop going on the defensive so much.
Outdated. You cannot change the events on the night. What Jeremy did afterwards. What was said in interviews & in court. Statements at the time.
Jeremy has always been trying to get new evidence. Often making desparate claims.
If the new book is biased towards Jeremy there will no doubt be lots of alledged new information.
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By the way I would not give you a scenario because I am not a ballistics expert . But timing wise I do believe that SB had time to shoot them all between 3.26 and when the police got there - but I do believe she was probably alive whilst they were outside . I am not going to speculate on the order or when she shot herself because we do not have full access to all the police logs ( which they appear to have changed anyway.) So that's all the answer you will get from me. But I will say none of your posts have managed to convince me of anything else .Mainly because they are based on hearsay and character assumptions. Even if someone is a bad person , it does not make them a murderer. But I do not want JB out on a technicality - I would really like someone to come forward and tell the truth. Oh and I would add from other research I have done the police even mislead the jury regarding the ballistics evidence so even that can not be relied upon.
I am going by facts. Such as today saying what the pathologist said in court.
Even then no one agreed that Sheila could not walk around after the first shot.
You know I would rip you're scenario apart. Sheila has to reload twice, brutally beat Neville & Neville has to make two phone calls. One to Jeremy !
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Outdated. You cannot change the events on the night. What Jeremy did afterwards. What was said in interviews & in court. Statements at the time.
Jeremy has always been trying to get new evidence. Often making desparate claims.
If the new book is biased towards Jeremy there will no doubt be lots of alledged new information.
Bet you would not be making that statement if one of your family had died In the Liverpool tragedy.
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Adam I am not trying to change the events of the night why would I try and do that. I just think Jeremy Bamber had a very unfair Trial. What I am interested in is the evidence that has not been disclosed and why so much evidence was destoyed.
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Outdated. You cannot change the events on the night. What Jeremy did afterwards. What was said in interviews & in court. Statements at the time.
Jeremy has always been trying to get new evidence. Often making desparate claims.
If the new book is biased towards Jeremy there will no doubt be lots of alledged new information.
When did you join? December 1st? Here's what you wrote then:
At present I have an open mind & lots of questions. Am ready to be persuaded one way or the other.
Didn't take you long before you placed your feet firmly in the guilty camp did it?
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I am going by facts. Such as today saying what the pathologist said in court.
Even then no one agreed that Sheila could not walk around after the first shot.
You know I would rip you're scenario apart. Sheila has to reload twice, brutally beat Neville & Neville has to make two phone calls. One to Jeremy !
fine - rip my scenario apart if it makes you happy. I never professed to be an expert unlike you. But I am still entitled to my opinion. And that's all it is.
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Well said jansus ;D
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Adam I am not trying to change the events of the night why would I try and do that. I just think Jeremy Bamber had a very unfair Trial. What I am interested in is the evidence that has not been disclosed and why so much evidence was destoyed.
Unfair trial ?
It lasted 19 days & Jeremy paid for the best available lawyers.
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lets all keep adam happy and just agree with him. That might confuse him :D
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fine - rip my scenario apart if it makes you happy. I never professed to be an expert unlike you. But I am still entitled to my opinion. And that's all it is.
I would if you made one.
I had the courage to.
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Unfair trial ?
It lasted 19 days & Jeremy paid for the best available lawyers.
you are right - its all about the time it takes - not the evidence from the file that went missing in the burglary or the missing police logs. Spot on
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I would if you made one.
I had the courage to.
But I explained why I would not do that . I am not as clever as you :-[
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lets all keep adam happy and just agree with him. That might confuse him :D
Going along the line of not being able to change the behaviour of another person, but changing our own attitude TO their behaviour, I'd say that you're more likely to shut him up by agreeing with him than arguing with him :D
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I would if you made one.
I had the courage to.
Sorry just had to say before I sign off tonight - courage is not posting on a forum - it is for people who fight for our country and the public service people like , yes the police , most of who do a fantastic job. so no I dont think you writing a scenario is courageous, and any way I am not THAT scary. ( Except perhaps to the people who work for me) ::)
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But I explained why I would not do that . I am not as clever as you :-[
You don't need to be clever to make a scenario.
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You don't need to be clever to make a scenario.
No Adam, you're quite correct. YOU don't.
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You don't need to be clever to make a scenario.
Yes you've demonstrated that. ;D
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Yes you've demonstrated that. ;D
My scenario was a common sense one in my opinion.
Neville would run away from a fit Jeremy (shot on stairs). Jeremy could & would brutally beat Neville in the kitchen ( no more bullets). Then have time to reload. The twins were asleep & June was dying. Sheila was either cowering in the bedroom, or lead there.
No phone calls were made.
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ok - so as there was no forensic evidence that JB did it - why did he just not make it look like a burglary and keep quiet? why alert the police by a false phone call? Because they may have been brave and go in straight away to try and save the children . then the times of deaths would have been accurately recorded. But of course you believe the official reports of TOD as 8am are false. Because it blows your theory out of the water. Again if he did do it why were the police convinced it was murder suicide ? Even to me it is pretty obvious the picture of the body with the gun was staged - so why were they so convinced that they argued with the family and would not accept their theory for so long?
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ok - so as there was no forensic evidence that JB did it - why did he just not make it look like a burglary and keep quiet? why alert the police by a false phone call? Because they may have been brave and go in straight away to try and save the children . then the times of deaths would have been accurately recorded. But of course you believe the official reports of TOD as 8am are false. Because it blows your theory out of the water. Again if he did do it why were the police convinced it was murder suicide ? Even to me it is pretty obvious the picture of the body with the gun was staged - so why were they so convinced that they argued with the family and would not accept their theory for so long?
Forensic ? He shot people. The carpets were removed. What forensics ?
Burglary ? Bit extreme that turning into a massacre with women & children being shot.
The police phone call has been discussed before. It is not a bad idea. Neville phoned Jeremy at home, Sheila has gone crazy, she is nutter, arriving after the police etc.
Time of deaths ? Obviously before 8am.
The police made mistakes early on but had the guts to admit it and change direction.
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My scenario was a common sense one in my opinion.
Neville would run away from a fit Jeremy (shot on stairs). Jeremy could & would brutally beat Neville in the kitchen ( no more bullets). Then have time to reload. The twins were asleep & June was dying. Sheila was either cowering in the bedroom, or lead there.
No phone calls were made.
Yes you are right. Only Agatha Christie could write a better senario.
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Forensic ? He shot people. The carpets were removed. What forensics ?
Burglary ? Bit extreme that turning into a massacre with women & children being shot.
The police phone call has been discussed before. It is not a bad idea. Neville phoned Jeremy at home, Sheila has gone crazy, she is nutter, arriving after the police etc.
Time of deaths ? Obviously before 8am.
The police made mistakes early on but had the guts to admit it and change direction.
That contradicts Dr. Craig, who timed the deaths at 8am.
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...
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perhaps that is why he nearly got away with the crime. It was nearly the perfect murder ( except for him blabbing :) ). Such a good well thought out and planned scene. OR that is what actually happened. And he was telling the truth.
Also about your comment about the children - it has been known in burglary that OAPs get killed as well which is just as senseless - so don't really understand your argument there .
The most logical reason in all of this for the children to be killed is that SB had a manic episode .And having read up on her history I sadly still believe that's what happened.
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Adam why do you have to be sarcastic so much make your point and we will either agree or disagree. You seem to have a personal problem with Jeremy did you know him or what. No point in you trying to solve this case he was found GUILTY in a Court of Law and is serving life in prison what more do you want. You told me you came on this forum with an open mind I have yet to see that.
I like this post.
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My scenario was a common sense one in my opinion.
Neville would run away from a fit Jeremy (shot on stairs). Jeremy could & would brutally beat Neville in the kitchen ( no more bullets). Then have time to reload. The twins were asleep & June was dying. Sheila was either cowering in the bedroom, or lead there.
No phone calls were made.
My "scenario" makes as much sense as yours (more actually, a little bit :))
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Alias don't think Adam like my post he never responded :'( ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Morning Grahame
HaHaHa I am falling off the chair laughing. You not think Adam's scenario is accurate ;D ;D ;D Agatha Christie indeed ;D
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That contradicts Dr. Craig, who timed the deaths at 8am.
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You can't change the observations of an autopsy either but by the time Vanezis made a statement, his initial observations in respect to blood on Sheila's hands had done a 380 degree turn!! Why don't you question that?
A prime example which proves Adam isn't the least bit open minded, he just repeats the mantra of the red forum imo.
If he was at all interested in 'the truth' he would surely do better than just repeating , myths and half truths imo
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What time did the police break in ?
Don't see why this is an issue. Everyone was dead inside upon entry.
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Forensic ? He shot people. The carpets were removed. What forensics ?
Burglary ? Bit extreme that turning into a massacre with women & children being shot.
The police phone call has been discussed before. It is not a bad idea. Neville phoned Jeremy at home, Sheila has gone crazy, she is nutter, arriving after the police etc.
Time of deaths ? Obviously before 8am.
The police made mistakes early on but had the guts to admit it and change direction.
Need to change this a bit. Forensic, it was 1985, not todays CSI era. There was forensic evidence. The silencer.
Is the bathroom window marks & matching hacksaw forensic or circumstantial.
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Talking of driving slowly to WHF. It was said in court that Jeremy asked the police to pick him up at his cottage.
The prosecution argued that was so Jeremy could show he was at home.
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Morning Adam
marks on the windows from hacksaw not relevant as Jeremy had volunteered the fact he often accessed the farm through a window so it was no secret. It has since been established the blood in the silencer was not a match for Sheila as such.
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Adam that is not evidence pure conjecture. It had been established Jeremy's car had been parked outside of his house all night.
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The pathologist in court testified that the first bullet would have -
Stunned Sheila.
Caused a lot of bleeding.
Sheila would have been disabled by the shock of the injury.
Sheila would have been disabled by the pain of the injury.
Sheila would not be able to walk up & down the stairs after getting the first bullet.
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Adam nobody knew if everyone was dead inside WHF. The police must have had doubts as that is why they sent for armed backup.
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Jeremys official website claimed Sheila shot herself downstairs & then walked upstairs & shot herself again.
But a pathologist testified in court that was impossible. See above.
Why were there two cartridges next to Sheila upstairs ?
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Adam that is not evidence pure conjecture. It had been established Jeremy's car had been parked outside of his house all night.
I am sure the car did not move. He would have cycled there. There were lots of routes he would know. The bike was outside his cottage.
Asking the police to pick him up makes it seem more like Jeremy has been at home all night & received Nevilles call.
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Adam nobody knew if everyone was dead inside WHF. The police must have had doubts as that is why they sent for armed backup.
Agree nobody knew what was happening inside. The police did call armed back up. They had been told Sheila was a 'nutter' & Neville had rang Jeremy. Although I recently gave 19 reasons why Neville would not ring Jeremy.
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Morning Adam
marks on the windows from hacksaw not relevant as Jeremy had volunteered the fact he often accessed the farm through a window so it was no secret. It has since been established the blood in the silencer was not a match for Sheila as such.
The tests available at the time showed it was a match. There were further tests years later, correct me if I am wrong but I believe Sheila matched 13 of 17 criteria showing it was her blood. A high percentage.
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Morning Adam
marks on the windows from hacksaw not relevant as Jeremy had volunteered the fact he often accessed the farm through a window so it was no secret. It has since been established the blood in the silencer was not a match for Sheila as such.
Do you think Jeremy climbed through the bathroom on the night of the murders. Or was tucked up in bed with his teddy bear ?
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Jeremys official website claimed Sheila shot herself downstairs & then walked upstairs & shot herself again.
But a pathologist testified in court that was impossible.
Why were there two cartridges next to Sheila ?
Hi Adam,
First of all, there is evidence contained in the file to strongly suggest that a total of four bullet cases were added to the bedroom scenario by police once the nature of the investigation changed from SC/688/85 into SC/786/85. These four added bullet cases are identified by the exhibit references of DRH/1, DRH/2, DRH/3 and DRH/4. It may or may not surprise you to know that the two bullet cases supposedly found next to Sheila's body, were / are, DRH/1 and DRH/2. These particular bullet cases were not on the bedroom floor next to Sheila's body when Sheila died inside the bedroom, albeit, at least one other bullet case was photographed in close proximity to her body by scenes of crime officer, PC Bird...
Therefore...
A total of only 9 bullet cases were originally found in the general vicinity of the main bedroom, doorway and top landing...
June was shot seven times, before she was killed off, which leaves two other bullet cases to be accounted for. Now at this juncture, you can either choose to go with the police version of events, namely, that Ralph had been shot 4 times whilst he was upstairs in the main bedroom, in which case, you then have a logistical problem, since, how could Ralph be shot four times in the bedroom, with only two bullet cases to account for? Furthermore, how did Sheila come to be shot twice in the bedroom, if you have to accommodate the four shots to Ralph Bamber, and the two additional shots (PV/20 and PV/19) to Sheila? You have got 6 additional shots (aforementioned) but only two available spent bullet cases in the bedroom...
It is much more likely, that June was shot up to 7 times in the bedroom, and that Ralph was shot once, and Sheila shot once - making a total of 9 shots fired in the bedroom. Alternatively, I am prepared to accept that Ralph may have been shot twice in the bedroom, with June receiving the other 7 bullets...
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Hello Mike,
Even I am lost for words after that post.
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Adam that post is not worthy of a sensible reply :(
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I think the word was unlikely!! But yet another said it was certainly possible. You haven't really done any research, you're just going over and over the same ground of the the phone call whist harping on about your scenario (which is frankly one of the poorer ones I have read). It is clear that you are one of the more closed minded guilty supporters - who will go over the same ground and stick your fingers in your ears chanting la, la if you hear something you can't explain. Sad!!
Well my thread is 97 pages. I have bern contributing throughout on -
Phones
Pathologist reports.
Windows.
Phone calls.
Scenarios.
Court testimonies.
Bullet wounds.
Transport.
Witness statements.
Mugford & other witnesses.
Books.
Family relations.
Silencers.
Jeremys driving.
Appeals.
Information sources.
Circumstantial evidence.
Interview transcripts.
Etc.
Going over the same ground ?
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Adam that post is not worthy of a sensible reply :(
I have a teddy bear. Nothing to be ashamed of.
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I think the word was unlikely!! But yet another said it was certainly possible. You haven't really done any research, you're just going over and over the same ground of the the phone call whist harping on about your scenario (which is frankly one of the poorer ones I have read). It is clear that you are one of the more closed minded guilty supporters - who will go over the same ground and stick your fingers in your ears chanting la, la if you hear something you can't explain. Sad!!
Why is my scenario poor ? It matches the crime scene & bullet allocation. There was no time consuming phone calls & Jeremy knew how to load guns. Jeremy is also much more likely to give Neville a brutal beating while Neville is still alive.
I put it up to be discussed.
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DCI 'Taff' Jones, and other senior officers, believed and accepted that Ralph did make that call to Jeremy...
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Hi Adam, I would dispute Sheila 'would be disabled by the pain of the injury'. I am pretty certains Sheila wouldn't feel any pain from the injury. Physical and mental trauma have the same effect, our bodies defence system rushes in. The blood would drain away from any areas except vital organs as initial body reaction is to maintain life. Sheila would therefore initially become unconcious. The probability is once her body discovered she would survive this injury she regained conciousness. Being so traumatised she would not feel the pain of her injury and her shocked brain would only deal with inconsequential facts, ie. She wouldn't be able to
rationalise or think beyond the trivial or a very strong desire to be where she believed she would feel safe and everything would be alright. She may if her determination was strong enough have had a go at getting herself upstairs, she may have only been able to make it as far as the main bedroom but could have been heading for the twins room, her only thought may have been to get to the twins
room, in shock that could have been her only thought, to die with her boys but she couldn't go any further than the main bedroom, they say she was found on the bed, maybe she could go no further?
Just a thought as to what may have been Sheila's last moments.
Her trauma was
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Hi Adam, I would dispute Sheila 'would be disabled by the pain of the injury'. I am pretty certains Sheila wouldn't feel any pain from the injury. Physical and mental trauma have the same effect, our bodies defence system rushes in. The blood would drain away from any areas except vital organs as initial body reaction is to maintain life. Sheila would therefore initially become unconcious. The probability is once her body discovered she would survive this injury she regained conciousness. Being so traumatised she would not feel the pain of her injury and her shocked brain would only deal with inconsequential facts, ie. She wouldn't be able to
rationalise or think beyond the trivial or a very strong desire to be where she believed she would feel safe and everything would be alright. She may if her determination was strong enough have had a go at getting herself upstairs, she may have only been able to make it as far as the main bedroom but could have been heading for the twins room, her only thought may have been to get to the twins
room, in shock that could have been her only thought, to die with her boys but she couldn't go any further than the main bedroom, they say she was found on the bed, maybe she could go no further?
Just a thought as to what may have been Sheila's last moments.
Her trauma was
To be honest I have to go by what a Pathologist in court testified.
Why was no blood running down her nightie ?
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I have a teddy bear. Nothing to be ashamed of.
Hmm, you also seem to have an overblown sense of self importance :)
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Adam, most of what you say comes straight from Wilkes's book - people can just read/reread the book if they so desired.
Some of it does. Did you read the 5 star reviews I posted.
However as previously said i have read -
Witness statements.
Court appeal decisions.
Internet articles.
UK Justice forum.
Interview transcripts.
This forum.
Jeremys official site.
I have also watched all the Youtube videos.
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Perfectly beleivable scenario for me -
Jeremy rides to WHF - He had a bike & knew the routes.
He gets through the bathroom window without making a noise - He is used to getting in.
The phones are disabled & gun picked up.
He starts shooting a sleeping June - Blood on the pillow (5)
Neville wakes & gets up & is shot - Torso shots (4)
Neville heads to the kitchen - Back shot (1)
He is caught up and beaten - Gun is now empty. Nevilles black eyes, damaged jaw.
Gun re loaded and Neville shot again - Head shots (3)
June has staggered out of bed. She is shot again (2)
Sheila is woken & told she needs to go into the main bedroom. She is immediatly pulled to the floor, held down & shot. Still alive she is shot again - Two bullet wounds (2)
The twins are shot while sleeping - Found in bed (eight).
Silencer taken off - Not found on gun.
A gun & bible is put on & by Sheila - Both found on/by her.
Bedroom phone brought downstairs & plugged in - No blood on phone.
Kitchen phone hidden - Found under newpapers. In working order.
Silencer put in box in gun cupboard - Found in a box in the gun cupboard.
Exit out of the kitchen window - Lockable from outside.
Back home, wash & get ready to make phone calls.
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Scenario seems quite straight forward to me.
Man gets into house, picks up fully loaded gun.....
Talking of guns. There is a lot of different accounts on Sheila' s gun experience. Did anyone ever see her load a gun ?
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To be honest I have to go by what a Pathologist in court testified.
Why was no blood running down her nightie ?
We don"t know why there wasn't as we don't know the true nature of her wound, whether it did bleed profusely or very little. Could have initially bled profusely and Sheila may have been unconcious and on her right side at that time accounting for the blood collected on her right side. Remember she hit a vein not an artery so blood would not gush out there are many possibilities and I am just pointing that out to you. Pretty certain Sheila would have instintively put her hand up to her neck wound which would account for blood trails on her arms and some of the blood on her hands so along with the blood under her right arm ee have to accept the wound did bleed at some point, unless the blood pooled under her right arm later if someone did try to resucitate her, the pooled blood is in the right place for such a possibility.
I am not claiming to be a pathologist am just pointing out a few of the many possibilities surrounding Sheila's behaviour after her first wound. I am not even saying, this is what I do or don't believe, am just following one train of thought.
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Adam as I have stated before the bike was forensically tested and nothing was found. By the way will not buy the book now by RW as you have posted most of it up on the forum I will keep reading your posts for the rest of it. Just saved me one penny plus £2 p&p. ;D
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Scenario seems quite straight forward to me.
Man gets into house, picks up fully loaded gun.....
Talking of guns. There is a lot of different accounts on Sheila' s gun experience. Did anyone ever see her load or load a gun ?
Don't you realise it's straight forward to you because you start from the entrenched belief 1. That Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath, although proven over and over he isn"t but in your mind he had to be for your theory to work.
2. You are convinced he is guilty and your mind is closed to any other possibilities.
In those circumstances I'm sure you believe it's an open and shut case, pity you don't understand how to keep an open mind and to ponder and question. You say you have questions but you joined this forum believing you have all the answers. Imo you are here to time waste and disrupt that's the only reason for you to be here.
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And yet he changed his original notes - the notes he made on the day of the autopsy. He said Sheila's hands were blood stained and that the stain on her nightdress came from the blood on her palm. His later statement said that the hands were clean?? Why would that be Adam? The cause of death could change from Suicide to murder if the nature of the investigation changed BUT those little details of whether there was blood on her hands or not SHOULD have remained the same. And THAT'S a fact NOT a scenario!!
Exactly
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Adam as I have stated before the bike was forensically tested and nothing was found. By the way will not buy the book now by RW as you have posted most of it up on the forum I will keep reading your posts for the rest of it. Just saved me one penny plus £2 p&p. ;D
Well said Susan.
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Adam as I have stated before the bike was forensically tested and nothing was found. By the way will not buy the book now by RW as you have posted most of it up on the forum I will keep reading your posts for the rest of it. Just saved me one penny plus £2 p&p. ;D
Why should there be blood on the bike ?
Interestingly, in court it was stated that blood was found in Jeremys car.It was not possible to determine whose blood it was, but it was human blood.
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Don't you realise it's straight forward to you because you start from the entrenched belief 1. That Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath, although proven over and over he isn"t but in your mind he had to be for your theory to work.
2. You are convinced he is guilty and your mind is closed to any other possibilities.
In those circumstances I'm sure you believe it's an open and shut case, pity you don't understand how to keep an open mind and to ponder and question. You say you have questions but you joined this forum believing you have all the answers. Imo you are here to time waste and disrupt that's the only reason for you to be here.
Feel free to rip my scenario apart.
Had anyone seen Sheila load a gun ?
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Adam did I suggest the police tested the bike tyres for blood. Keep up ;D
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Don't you realise it's straight forward to you because you start from the entrenched belief 1. That Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath, although proven over and over he isn"t but in your mind he had to be for your theory to work.
2. You are convinced he is guilty and your mind is closed to any other possibilities.
In those circumstances I'm sure you believe it's an open and shut case, pity you don't understand how to keep an open mind and to ponder and question. You say you have questions but you joined this forum believing you have all the answers. Imo you are here to time waste and disrupt that's the only reason for you to be here.
Tell me another possibility.
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Adam did I suggest the police tested the bike tyres for blood. Keep up ;D
What were they testing it for ?
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Feel free to rip my scenario apart.
Had anyone seen Sheila load a gun ?
It is highly unlikely that every action of her 27 years was recorded and just because something isn't seen to have happened doesn't rule out that it has. Given that children learn by watching and then copying what the see demonstrated, it would be foolish to believe, that as this was something she would have been part of all her life, she was incapable of it.
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Tell me another possibility.
No you work it out, I've got things to do thanks.
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No you work it out, I've got things to do thanks.
Ok.
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Why should there be blood on the bike ?
Interestingly, in court it was stated that blood was found in Jeremys car.It was not possible to determine whose blood it was, but it was human blood.
And from whom/ where would you suggest that any blood in Jeremy's car had come?
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And from whom/ where would you suggest that any blood in Jeremy's car had come?
Just to make it 100
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It is highly unlikely that every action of her 27 years was recorded and just because something isn't seen to have happened doesn't rule out that it has. Given that children learn by watching and then copying what the see demonstrated, it would be foolish to believe, that as this was something she would have been part of all her life, she was incapable of it.
The psychiatrists the defence team consulted all said she was not capable of such a murderous rampage.
Other people who knew her said that maybe she could attack her mother. But not Neville or the children or herself.
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And from whom/ where would you suggest that any blood in Jeremy's car had come?
Now there is a question. But it was found.
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It is highly unlikely that every action of her 27 years was recorded and just because something isn't seen to have happened doesn't rule out that it has. Given that children learn by watching and then copying what the see demonstrated, it would be foolish to believe, that as this was something she would have been part of all her life, she was incapable of it.
Hiya April, think Sheila used to go with Jeremy when he was target shooting, no one knows if she ever had a go, would guess she did but even if she didn't she would have seen him
and Nevill do it surely? I wonder if June ever used a gun? Would guess as a farmer's daughter she would have been very familiar with all kinds of guns. :-\
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Now there is a question.
Over to you then Adam :)
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Over to you then Adam :)
Perhaps it was Sheila's blood ? !
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Hiya April, think Sheila used to go with Jeremy when he was target shooting, no one knows if she ever had a go, would guess she did but even if she didn't she would have seen him
and Nevill do it surely? I wonder if June ever used a gun? Would guess as a farmer's daughter she would have been very familiar with all kinds of guns. :-\
Maggie, this is entirely my point. If an action is watched long enough it can be copied, a la children with matches.
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Now there is a question. But it was found.
No it wasn't it was in Neville's car. Wonder why a farmer wbo shot game would have spots of blood on his passenger seat? Can't remember if it was proved to be human blood if it was again there are many possibilities sure you can think of some Adam.
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Perhaps it was Sheila's blood ? !
Another menstrual accident perhaps.
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Adam you work it out the clue is in the tyres ;D
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No it wasn't it was in Neville's car. Wonder why a farmer wbo shot game would have slota of blood on his passenger seat?
Thought the car Jeremy used was given to him by Neville ?
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Adam jusrt noticed Grahame on line he will explain what the tyres of the bike were tested for ;D
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Thought the car Jeremy used was given to him by Neville ?
Jeremy's car was an Astra it belonged to the estate, Nevill's was a Citrron and that is whrre the blood was found.
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Just thought I'd mention, it's Nevill without the e
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Thought the car Jeremy used was given to him by Neville ?
Jeremy drove an Astra, paid for, I imagine, by insurance money Nevill had a small Citroen.
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What time did the police break in ?
Don't see why this is an issue. Everyone was dead inside upon entry.
Well if you are talking about the time of deaths then it is important. Because if Ralph's body was in rigor, then that means that he had died long before 8am. If Sheila's body was not in rigor then that means her body was not in rigor. Knowing the times of deaths would perhaps shatter your whole senario. But we don't know. So speculate away, because everyone's scenario is right and everyones scenario is wrong. Quite simply because we don't have the correct times of deaths. You can thank lazy old Dr. Craig for that. I'm afraid he would never get a part in NCIS. ;)
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Just thought I'd mention, it's Nevill without the e
Mwaaah :) It does SO irritate me when names are spelled incorrectly, Roch.
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Agree nobody knew what was happening inside. The police did call armed back up. They had been told Sheila was a 'nutter' & Neville had rang Jeremy. Although I recently gave 19 reasons why Neville would not ring Jeremy.
Bews called for armed back-up immediately after they saw a "trick of the light" in one of the windows. Tells you a lot about Bews.
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Hello april it is strange but I always refer to him as Ralph. ;D try better with your spelling april ;D ;D ;D
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Do you think Jeremy climbed through the bathroom on the night of the murders. Or was tucked up in bed with his teddy bear ?
No. He doesn't have a teddy bear. ;)
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Hello april it is strange but I always refer to him as Ralph. ;D try better with your spelling april ;D ;D ;D
Susan, all those of his friends and known personally by me, call him Nevill.
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Mwaaah :) It does SO irritate me when names are spelled incorrectly, Rohc.
::) :D
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EVIDENCE of an alleged botched police investigation will be used by lawyers in a fresh appeal from Jeremy Bamber, convicted nearly 30 years ago for the murder of five members of his family.In the submission, due to be put before the Criminal Cases Review Commission next month, it will be argued that the bloodstained silencer, used to secure Bamber's conviction, was not the only device of its kind found by officers on the farm in Tolleshunt D'Arcy, and could therefore have been subject to contamination.This will be the third time the CCRC, which reviews possible miscarriages of justice in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, has looked at Bamber's case after he was found guilty of the murders in 1985 and handed five life sentences.Former MP Andrew Hunter, who has been involved in the campaign for ten years, said: "We have discovered that there were three silencers taken from White House Farm, but only one was produced at trial and this was the one with Sheila's blood in it.
"There seems to have been so much confusion about which one was taken to police, with serial numbers being changed, that the evidence is unreliable."Another area of new evidence is that Nevill Bamber was found with burns on the back of his neck which it was argued were caused by the silencer on the murder weapon. We have obtained advice that this is not the case and the burns may have been caused without it."Bamber has spent more than 28 years behind bars after being convicted of killing his adopted parents June and Nevill, sister Sheila Caffell and her two sons Daniel and Nicholas at their family home, White House Farm, in Tolleshunt D'Arcy in 1985.It was Bamber's cousin David Boutflour who found a silencer in a cupboard at the farm three days after the murders, with Caffell's blood on it.It was key to the prosecution's case in the trial at Chelmsford Crown Court that the drop of Caffell's blood on the silencer meant she could not have shot herself then placed it in a cupboard downstairs.But despite the new evidence Mr Hunter, who was the Conservative MP for Basingstoke until 2005, admits it is difficult to hold out much hope for a reversal in the court's previous decisions."I don't raise my hopes we have been let down so many times before.
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Hello april Nevill without the e I guess. ;D I just like Ralph better suppose I could change it :'(
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The windows were checked several times and nothing was found - then Jeremy becomes a suspect and "OH!! Look a hacksaw mark" - Garbage!! They only looked for blood type in those days - read the blood evidence!! But don't you think it's strange that none of Sheila's DNA was later found in the silencer?
They found no hacksaw or marks on the window that morning. They were all under the impression it was 4 murders and one suicide.
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From 4 days ago.
See I do post positive posts about Jeremy.
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EVIDENCE of an alleged botched police investigation will be used by lawyers in a fresh appeal from Jeremy Bamber, convicted nearly 30 years ago for the murder of five members of his family.In the submission, due to be put before the Criminal Cases Review Commission next month, it will be argued that the bloodstained silencer, used to secure Bamber's conviction, was not the only device of its kind found by officers on the farm in Tolleshunt D'Arcy, and could therefore have been subject to contamination.This will be the third time the CCRC, which reviews possible miscarriages of justice in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, has looked at Bamber's case after he was found guilty of the murders in 1985 and handed five life sentences.Former MP Andrew Hunter, who has been involved in the campaign for ten years, said: "We have discovered that there were three silencers taken from White House Farm, but only one was produced at trial and this was the one with Sheila's blood in it.
"There seems to have been so much confusion about which one was taken to police, with serial numbers being changed, that the evidence is unreliable."Another area of new evidence is that Nevill Bamber was found with burns on the back of his neck which it was argued were caused by the silencer on the murder weapon. We have obtained advice that this is not the case and the burns may have been caused without it."Bamber has spent more than 28 years behind bars after being convicted of killing his adopted parents June and Nevill, sister Sheila Caffell and her two sons Daniel and Nicholas at their family home, White House Farm, in Tolleshunt D'Arcy in 1985.It was Bamber's cousin David Boutflour who found a silencer in a cupboard at the farm three days after the murders, with Caffell's blood on it.It was key to the prosecution's case in the trial at Chelmsford Crown Court that the drop of Caffell's blood on the silencer meant she could not have shot herself then placed it in a cupboard downstairs.But despite the new evidence Mr Hunter, who was the Conservative MP for Basingstoke until 2005, admits it is difficult to hold out much hope for a reversal in the court's previous decisions."I don't raise my hopes we have been let down so many times before.
Even Andrew Hunter is saying a silencer had Sheila's blood on it.
Serial numbers, burn marks on backs.
The words 'straws' & 'clucthing' spring to mind.
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Adam Chin up stay positive. Do you think any new evidence is going to be plastered all over the internet. Not the case Legal teams keep these matters very close to their chest until the time is right. ;)
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DCI 'Taff' Jones, and other senior officers, believed and accepted that Ralph did make that call to Jeremy...
If they did not then for sure they would have put up proof that he didn't. Remember Jeremy was under surveilance at the time because of Operation Stokenchurch. So they knew he made that phonecall but because it was Special Branch carrying out the operation the evidence would not be presented to the court as it was a secret operation.
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Adam well if Andrew Hunter said it guess it will be true as he is very pro Bamber. ;D
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If they did not then for sure they would have put up proof that he didn't. Remember Jeremy was under surveilance at the time because of Operation Stokenchurch. So they knew he made that phonecall but because it was Special Branch carrying out the operation the evidence would not be presented to the court as it was a secret operation.
Who made what phone call ?
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Scenario seems quite straight forward to me.
Man gets into house, picks up fully loaded gun.....
Talking of guns. There is a lot of different accounts on Sheila' s gun experience. Did anyone ever see her load a gun ?
Both Peter Eaton testified that she went on a shooting expedition in Scotland. She was farm girl. Work it out. I haven't met a farm hand or farmer yet who doesn't know about guns.
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Why should there be blood on the bike ?
Interestingly, in court it was stated that blood was found in Jeremys car.It was not possible to determine whose blood it was, but it was human blood.
But according to you he used a bike. Both can't be true? I think you are grabbing at anything and everything to try and prove your case?
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Both Peter Eaton testified that she went on a shooting expedition in Scotland. She was farm girl. Work it out. I haven't met a farm hand or farmer yet who doesn't know about guns.
Well she was a farm girl with mental health problems, living in London, sent to boarding school at an early age.
Relatives have said she would not know one end of a gun from the other.
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But according to you he used a bike. Both can't be true? I think you are grabbing at anything and everything to try and prove your case?
He did use a bike in my opinion. It was outside his cottage.
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Would you like to answer this point Adam?
The pathologist must have lied & lied under oath.
Can't trust anyone these days.
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But according to you he used a bike. Both can't be true? I think you are grabbing at anything and everything to try and prove your case?
He did use a bike in my opinion. It was outside his cottage.
Although there has been a suggestion on the UK Justice forum that he drove some of the way.
It was the middle of the night. Who will see/hear him use his car ?
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The pathologist must have lied & lied under oath.
Can't trust anyone these days.
You certainly can't Adam. Bear that in mind when quoting the relatives. David Boutflour was reluctant to say that Sheila was on that shooting expedition to Scotland.
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Adam Hush hush Special Branch ;)
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He did use a bike in my opinion. It was outside his cottage.
Although there has been a suggestion on the UK Justice forum that he drove some of the way.
It was the middle of the night. Who will see/hear him use his car ?
So now he drove some of the way? So if you can't prove it one way you'll get him on the other way? Kind of messes up your scenario a bit doesn't it? ;) The so called UK justice forum is a contradiction in terms.
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So now he drove some of the way? So if you can't prove it one way you'll get him on the other way? Kind of messes up your scenario a bit doesn't it? ;) The so called UK justice forum is a contradiction in terms.
He had a car & bike. Why not ?
Depends on if he thought he would be seen driving off. If so he would have cycled all the way.
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Adam remember the forensic testing of the bike are you saying that EP got it wrong ;D the bike was not used anywhere on that route.
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Adam remember the forensic testing of the bike are you saying that EP got it wrong ;D the bike was not used anywhere on that route.
There was no mud or dirt on the wheels ?
There is more than one route.
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He did use a bike in my opinion. It was outside his cottage.
Although there has been a suggestion on the UK Justice forum that he drove some of the way.
It was the middle of the night. Who will see/hear him use his car ?
Maybe he crawled on his hands and knees Adam, that would do it. You are determined he did it just to prove your own point, you're not interested in an MOJ you are only interested that your own opinion is right and that's what you are determined to prove. You don't care if there's an innocent man in prison you are only interested in finding a way to prove yourself right. If you cared two hoots about a person being wrongly imprisoned you would at least get to know the case, consider all possibilities and then make your decision as best you can. You would acknowledge we cannot be 100% certain because you have not seen all the evidence and you would call for all the evidence the police etc. hold to be in the public arena. Then we should all see the truth. All the supporters of Jeremy Bamber want to know is the truth while most of the guilters just want to be right .,....... pathetic imo
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Maybe he crawled on his hands and knees Adam, that would do it. You are determined he did it just to prove your own point, you're not interested in an MOJ you are only interested that your own opinion is right and that's what you are determined to prove. You don't care if there's an innocent man in prison you are only interested in finding a way to prove yourself right. If you cared two hoots about a person being wrongly imprisoned you would at least get to know the case, consider all possibilities and then make your decision as best you can. You would acknowledge we cannot be 100% certain because you have not seen all the evidence and you would call for all the evidence the police etc. hold to be in the public arena. Then we should all see the truth. All the supporters of Jeremy Bamber want to know is the truth while most of the guilters just want to be right .,....... pathetic imo
I have read a lot.
What evidence do you think the police are hiding ?
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There was no mud or dirt on the wheels ?
There is more than one route.
According to Grahame, he must have gone via the sulphur mines as SteveUK is adamant the wheels were caked in yellow mud. Grahame knows these things ;) ;) ;) .... and so does Steve :'( :'( :'(
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Adam as I have said many times Jeremy Bamber was found Guilty in A court of Law sentenced to life. What are you hoping to achieve on this forum. Have you maybe got little doubts about his conviction and you are I suspect trying to convince yourself of his guilt.
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He did use a bike in my opinion. It was outside his cottage.
Then please explain the blood in the car.
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He had a car & bike. Why not ?
Depends on if he thought he would be seen driving off. If so he would have cycled all the way.
Nope. Witnesses say that his car was in his drive.
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There was no mud or dirt on the wheels ?
There is more than one route.
Could you outline these routes for us Adam. Just so we will be clued in more.
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Then please explain the blood in the car.
Maybe the police put it there ? !
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The pathologist must have lied & lied under oath.
Can't trust anyone these days.
Stranger things HAVE been known to have happened.
Indeed you can't. Time was when if one wished to know the time, one asked a policeman. These day, first FIND a policeman, THEN make certain of wearing a watch to check that he's telling the truth :D :D
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Adam maybe you should contact EP and tell them this I bet they did not know about the other routes ;D
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Could you outline these routes for us Adam. Just so we will be clued in more.
Apparently there are three routes which would suit a bike.
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Apparently there are three routes which would suit a bike.
I don't know of these three routes. Could you please show them to me Adam?
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According to Grahame, he must have gone via the sulphur mines as SteveUK is adamant the wheels were caked in yellow mud. Grahame knows these things ;) ;) ;) .... and so does Steve :'( :'( :'(
Yellow BROWN mud, Maggie. Don't forget that bit. It could be HIGHLY relevant :D :D :D
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I don't know of these three routes. Could you please show them to me Adam?
I will message you my phone number & we can meet outside Jeremys cottage.
Bring you're bike.
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I have read a lot.
What evidence do you think the police are hiding ?
There are loads of undisclosed documents, thousands, wonder why they won't disclose all this. We know at the trial the police withheld evidence which came to light later.
Jeremy was sent many docs by mistake which were never intentionally disclosed these have helped him to piece quite a bit together. His campaign friends have cross referenced millions of documents which they completed earlier this year this has told them all sorts of things of interest.
You are way behind Adam, reading Wilkes is ok but it's just a bit of filling really the facts are in the documents. I imagine you believe Scott Lomax's book is biased because he supports Jeremy, well I didn't find it so biased, it was mainly factual and includes later evidence and information than was available to Wilkes when his book was written soon after JB went to prison.
You should enjoy Mason Doyle's book when it's published next year, I believe that is written from a very different angle, he has been all over the world to research the truth, think you guilters are in for a very rude awakening haha ;D ;D 8)
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I will message you my phone number & we can meet outside Jeremys cottage.
Bring you're bike.
How local are you Adam?
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I will message you my phone number & we can meet outside Jeremys cottage.
Bring you're bike.
So you can't outline them on a map and post it up then? Personally I know of one route. But according to you there were "lots of routes"? Now we've narrowed it down to three routes. I was just wondering what those three routes were?
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april Glasgow know that accent anywhere ;D ;D ;D
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The windows were checked several times and nothing was found - then Jeremy becomes a suspect and "OH!! Look a hacksaw mark" - Garbage!! They only looked for blood type in those days - read the blood evidence!! But don't you think it's strange that none of Sheila's DNA was later found in the silencer?
It's perfectly possible Jeremy slipped a catch and banged the window back into place:he knew the building better than any cursory examination from outsiders. He returned to the scene of the crime in early September ostensibly to get his passport but far more likely to cover his tracks forensically as he sensed the net was tightening. Your assertion that none of Sheila's DNA was found in the silencer whilst technically correct is misleading: the Court of Appeal in 2002 asserted that June's DNA was present in the silencer,Sheila's may have been and there was also DNA from an unidentified male.
Adam has done a good job in the last few days;he appears to have studied documentation which heretofore he had been chastised for not reading,which is why the Jeremy supporters have been so sour of late..
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Andrew Hunter said 4 days ago that Sheila's blood is on the silencer. The courts said this at the time. Further tests showed the blood match Sheila's blood criteria 13 out 17 times.
The court pathologist said Sheila could not put the silencer away after the first shot then go upstairs. There was no blood running straight down her nightie. Anyway there were two cartridges found next to her. The gun with silencer attached was too long as well.
How did Sheila's blood get on the silencer & then the silencer put in a box & then in the gun cupboard ?
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april Glasgow know that accent anywhere ;D ;D ;D
Susan ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It's perfectly possible Jeremy slipped a catch and banged the window back into place:he knew the building better than any cursory examination from outsiders. He returned to the scene of the crime in early September ostensibly to get his passport but far more likely to cover his tracks forensically as he sensed the net was tightening. Your assertion that none of Sheila's DNA was found in the silencer whilst technically correct is misleading: the Court of Appeal in 2002 asserted that June's DNA was present in the silencer,Sheila's may have been and there was also DNA from an unidentified male.
Adam has done a good job in the last few days;he appears to have studied documentation which heretofore he had been chastised for not reading,which is why the Jeremy supporters have been so sour of late..
Mugford when questioned told the police about the window which could be locked from outside. The police checked out this claim & found Mugford was correct.
This is in Jeremys interview transcripts.
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It's perfectly possible Jeremy slipped a catch and banged the window back into place:he knew the building better than any cursory examination from outsiders. He returned to the scene of the crime in early September ostensibly to get his passport but far more likely to cover his tracks forensically as he sensed the net was tightening. Your assertion that none of Sheila's DNA was found in the silencer whilst technically correct is misleading: the Court of Appeal in 2002 asserted that June's DNA was present in the silencer,Sheila's may have been and there was also DNA from an unidentified male.
Adam has done a good job in the last few days;he appears to have studied documentation which heretofore he had been chastised for not reading,which is why the Jeremy supporters have been so sour of late..
But he had ample opportunity to cover his tracks when he was offered the keys to the property by the police. He refused them and let Ann Eaton and her brother have them. So your suggestion does not make sense. Neither is logical. Furthermore Adam has not studied things properly but has rather copied what others have said. He can't even produce a map of the routes he said that JB could have used.
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Mugford when questioned told the police about the window which could be locked from outside. The police checked out this claim & found Mugford was correct.
This is in Jeremys interview transcripts.
If this had been a previously used method of entry, why would Jeremy not have known about it. He may have done it as a child. It's what small boys would enjoy doing.
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Mugford when questioned told the police about the window which could be locked from outside. The police checked out this claim & found Mugford was correct.
This is in Jeremys interview transcripts.
Wrong. The police could not reproduce what they said JB had done.
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So you can't outline them on a map and post it up then? Personally I know of one route. But according to you there were "lots of routes"? Now we've narrowed it down to three routes. I was just wondering what those three routes were?
Did I mention I read a book ?!
Robert Boutflour was interviewed. When he suspected Jeremy, he worked out there were three routes by bike.
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Adam think Jeremy mentioned the window before Julie ;D No don't think you mentioned reading a book what was it called ;D ;D ;D ;D
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But he had ample opportunity to cover his tracks when he was offered the keys to the property by the police. He refused them and let Ann Eaton and her brother have them. So your suggestion does not make sense. Neither is logical. Furthermore Adam has not studied things properly but has rather copied what others have said. He can't even produce a map of the routes he said that JB could have used.
What tracks. At the time Jeremy thought he was watertight.
Yes I do use what I have read. Even things that support Jeremy. Such as Andrew Hunters article.
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Adam think Jeremy mentioned the window before Julie ;D No don't think you mentioned reading a book what was it called ;D ;D ;D ;D
Read Jeremys police interview transcripts.
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Adam think Jeremy mentioned the window before Julie ;D No don't think you mentioned reading a book what was it called ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Did I mention I read a book ?!
Robert Boutflour was interviewed. When he suspected Jeremy, he worked out there were three routes by bike.
Have you never worked out what was probably RWB's agenda?
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Did I mention I also get information from other areas ?
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But he had ample opportunity to cover his tracks when he was offered the keys to the property by the police. He refused them and let Ann Eaton and her brother have them. So your suggestion does not make sense. Neither is logical. Furthermore Adam has not studied things properly but has rather copied what others have said. He can't even produce a map of the routes he said that JB could have used.
There was nothing else he could do to "cover his tracks". Police had burned the carpets and bedding and Jeremy playing the innocent bereaved victim had conned the head of the investigation DCI Taff Jones. June and Nevill were similarly cremated to avoid an exhumation at a later stage. The map of the possible routes to the White House are here: I don't know the area but I assume there are many more possibilities travelling through open countryside.http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/bicycle
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If this had been a previously used method of entry, why would Jeremy not have known about it. He may have done it as a child. It's what small boys would enjoy doing.
Yes April but Jeremy is a big boy now and we're discussing a murder investigation..
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Adam I do declare you did manytimes ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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There was nothing else he could do to "cover his tracks". Police had burned the carpets and bedding and Jeremy playing the innocent bereaved victim had conned the head of the investigation DCI Taff Jones. June and Nevill were similarly cremated to avoid an exhumation at a later stage. The map of the possible routes to the White House are here: I don't know the area but I assume there are many more possibilities travelling through open countryside.http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/bicycle
Thanks.
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Andrew Hunter said 4 days ago that Sheila's blood is on the silencer. The courts said this at the time. Further tests showed the blood match Sheila's blood criteria 13 out 17 times.
The court pathologist said Sheila could not put the silencer away after the first shot then go upstairs. There was no blood running straight down her nightie. Anyway there were two cartridges found next to her. The gun with silencer attached was too long as well.
How did Sheila's blood get on the silencer & then put in a box & then in the gun cupboard ?
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Anyone ?
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Adam so you read Jeremy's interview transcripts with EP did he confess or what ;D
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There was nothing else he could do to "cover his tracks". Police had burned the carpets and bedding and Jeremy playing the innocent bereaved victim had conned the head of the investigation DCI Taff Jones. June and Nevill were similarly cremated to avoid an exhumation at a later stage. The map of the possible routes to the White House are here: I don't know the area but I assume there are many more possibilities travelling through open countryside.http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/bicycle
I suspect Jeremy only realised on the night the gun was too long with the silencer attached.
He would be unaware of back splatter and thought no one would be suspicious anyway.
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Yes April but Jeremy is a big boy now and we're discussing a murder investigation..
But it doesn't render suspicious something he'd done innocently all his life.
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Yes April but Jeremy is a big boy now and we're discussing a murder investigation..
By the way, Steve, thank you for finally realizing I'm a capital A without a 1 :) :) :)
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Yes April but Jeremy is a big boy now and we're discussing a murder investigation..
What has that got to do with april's post, am sure she's aware it's a murder investigation and that Jeremy is not a child anymore ;D ;D
How many times ...... the younger members of the family sometimes used a window to gain access to the house when the house was locked up. :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Adam so you read Jeremy's interview transcripts with EP did he confess or what ;D
No he did not confess. Read my Jeremys interview transcripts thread for more information.
Lots of 'No comment', 'Don't know', 'Can't remember', 'Can't say' etc.
Or better still, read the actual transcripts.
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No, but read my Jeremys interview transcripts thread for more information.
Lots of 'No comment', 'Don't know', 'Can't remember', 'Can't say' etc.
Or better still, read the actual transcripts.
Whilst I'll acknowledge that it would have come over as arrogant, condescending and extremely impolite, I can actually see, that having previously been asked, and given a response to, the same questions, he became less than cooperative.
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I suspect Jeremy only realised on the night the gun was too long with the silencer attached.
He would be unaware of back splatter and thought no one would be suspicious anyway.
He was planning the murders for such long time but that never, ever thought about that til he was there wading about killing his closest family. Give us a break Adam, only a vicious psychopath could carry out such a crime ........ that's why he has to be a psychopath even though proven not to be. If he's not a psychopath he couldn't have done it, you know that,, you all know that.
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What has that got to do with april's post, am sure she's aware it's a murder investigation and that Jeremy is not a child anymore ;D ;D
How many times ...... the younger members of the family sometimes used a window to gain access to the house when the house was locked up. :'( :'( :'( :'(
There was also one window used as a cat flap I believe. The whole family were sitting ducks as Jeremy must have realized. The intolerable dreariness of his weekday existence,mitigated only by intermittent spliffs of cannabis pushed him over the edge as he realized a way out of his predicament,where fear of failing Nevill was the real reason,concealed by the pretence that he was putting them all out of their own misery. Jeremy yearned for a fresh start,which meant destroying everything in his wake. If he could have burned Nevill and June's bodies on the pyre with the bedding and the carpets he would have..
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steve I have just removed the post I put up as I am coming down to your level. To suggest Jeremy would have burnt June and Nevill on the fire is a wicked disrespectful thing to say and if you honestly feel this you should keep it to yourself after all you are not certain that Jeremy murdered his family and indeed if he is proven innocent how would you feel about comments like this.
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There was also one window used as a cat flap I believe. The whole family were sitting ducks as Jeremy must have realized. The intolerable dreariness of his weekday existence,mitigated only by intermittent spliffs of cannabis pushed him over the edge as he realized a way out of his predicament,where fear of failing Nevill was the real reason,concealed by the pretence that he was putting them all out of their own misery. Jeremy yearned for a fresh start,which meant destroying everything in his wake. If he could have burned Nevill and June's bodies on the pyre with the bedding and the carpets he would have..
Really Steve??? Is that a fact??? :D
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There was also one window used as a cat flap I believe. The whole family were sitting ducks as Jeremy must have realized. The intolerable dreariness of his weekday existence,mitigated only by intermittent spliffs of cannabis pushed him over the edge as he realized a way out of his predicament,where fear of failing Nevill was the real reason,concealed by the pretence that he was putting them all out of their own misery. Jeremy yearned for a fresh start,which meant destroying everything in his wake. If he could have burned Nevill and June's bodies on the pyre with the bedding and the carpets he would have..
Had that been the case, one rather imagines the furrows he ploughed would have been at "interesting" angles.
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steve I have just removed the post I put up as I am coming down to your level. To suggest Jeremy would have burnt June and Nevill on the fire is a wicked disrespectful thing to say and if you honestly feel this you should keep it to yourself after all you are not certain that Jeremy murdered his family and indeed if he is proven innocent how would you feel about comments like this.
Susan there are many lies in this case and I'm afraid the one from Jeremy affecting love for his deceased parents is one of the biggest. It pervades the case at all levels whether you like it or not and tarnishes Jeremy's efforts for release to this day when he professes to walk with his victims daily in his prison cell where it will all come out in the wash,when all I want is justice for the five people he killed whilst wondering what to do with the problem we now face with all lifers growing old.
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april I suspect Jeremy was a tad arrogant and did due to the way he had been brought up feel the police were slightly inferior to himself and he knew he was innocent and nothing to link him to the crimes so I can imagine how he behaved with the police not saying I agree with this type of behaviour because I don't. Jeremy's behavior was due to his upbringing you know the saying "give me the boy and I will give you the man"
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steve you have your Justice Jeremy is serving a life sentence. Do you want more.Perhaps for a change you can talk about Julie's bad behaviour allowing this dreadful crime to happen that is of course if she is telling the truth.
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Susan there are many lies in this case and I'm afraid the one from Jeremy affecting love for his deceased parents is one of the biggest. It pervades the case at all levels whether you like it or not and tarnishes Jeremy's efforts for release to this day when he professes to walk with his victims daily in his prison cell where it will all come out in the wash,when all I want is justice for the five people he killed whilst wondering what to do with the problem we now face with all lifers growing old.
Steve, IMO, you've worked backwards. SO insistent are you that Jeremy committed this crime that you have to find reasons for him doing so. You've CHOSEN to overlook that Sheila's recent experiences had rendered her more than capable of it and you've CHOSEN to overlook the covetous agenda of other family members. Try to take on board that "loathing" is not an overnight occurrence. It builds up over time and it's basis is often jealousy........................I would add that I believe the link here is Julie and your own desire for the rectification of what can only be described as her APPALLING behaviour.
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april I suspect Jeremy was a tad arrogant and did due to the way he had been brought up feel the police were slightly inferior to himself and he knew he was innocent and nothing to link him to the crimes so I can imagine how he behaved with the police not saying I agree with this type of behaviour because I don't. Jeremy's behavior was due to his upbringing you know the saying "give me the boy and I will give you the man"
Precisely so, Susan.
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april Excellent post. steve wants Justice for the 5 victims surely Jeremy serving life is Justice enough what more could he want think you are right about Julie.
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Steve, IMO, you've worked backwards. SO insistent are you that Jeremy committed this crime that you have to find reasons for him doing so. You've CHOSEN to overlook that Sheila's recent experiences had rendered her more than capable of it and you've CHOSEN to overlook the covetous agenda of other family members. Try to take on board that "loathing" is not an overnight occurrence. It builds up over time and it's basis is often jealousy........................I would add that I believe the link here is Julie and your own desire for the rectification of what can only be described as her APPALLING behaviour.
The jealousy as farm secretary Barbara Wilson recently stated was Jeremy's,who saw the twins as usurpers to his status and inheritance and resented the way they were cosseted as his parents possibly recompensed for their failings with their own children. Sheila had worked through her emotions with June and no longer spoke of her or her own children in a derogatory manner with Dr. Ferguson during her second stay at St. Andrew's. As for Julie's statement,it is a warts and all record of her association with Jeremy for almost two years,which leaves no doubt in my mind as to Jeremy's involvement in the White House Farm murders.
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What time did the police break in ?
Don't see why this is an issue. Everyone was dead inside upon entry.
They did not know that. In fact, they stayed outside for so long that morning because they thought that there might be someone alive in there - with a gun. Isn´t that a strange way for a raid team to conduct themselves? NOT doing their job and at least TRY to save the people inside who might be held hostages - two little boys to boot.
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The jealousy as farm secretary Barbara Wilson recently stated was Jeremy's,who saw the twins as usurpers to his status and inheritance and resented the way they were cosseted as his parents possibly recompensed for their failings with their own children. Sheila had worked through her emotions with June and no longer spoke of her or her own children in a derogatory manner with Dr. Ferguson during her second stay at St. Andrew's. As for Julie's statement,it is a warts and all record of her association with Jeremy for almost two years,which leaves no doubt in my mind as to Jeremy's involvement in the White House Farm murders.
Steve, I believe we've already established that you know little of human psychology and whilst it may be possible for you to convince others that you have extensive knowledge, I don't believe it to be a subject on which you and I can hold a conversation.......................I would however be interested to learn your opinion of which occasion BW LIED, because her views of Jeremy are utterly polarized. I truly fail to see how it's possible for him to be BOTH a kind, courteous young man, more caring of her than her own son, yet in the next breath a veritable monster of whom she went in fear.
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steve you have your Justice Jeremy is serving a life sentence. Do you want more.Perhaps for a change you can talk about Julie's bad behaviour allowing this dreadful crime to happen that is of course if she is telling the truth.
Well said Susan. If certain posters believe he is guilty , then he is exactly where he should be . So why waste time on here. What are they afraid of? I think it very unlikely he will get out on a technicality - even if it is proved there was a mis-trial. think it more likely that within the 100s of photos and apparently 1000s of pieces of evidence that the EP have still refused to release there will be something that will prove his position one way or the other. Or someone will break ranks and tell the truth about what happened on the night.It will just take one person to have a conscience and come forward and this will be solved once and for all.
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Steve, I believe we've already established that you know little of human psychology and whilst it may be possible for you to convince others that you have extensive knowledge, I don't believe it to be a subject on which you and I can hold a conversation.......................I would however be interested to learn your opinion of which occasion BW LIED, because her views of Jeremy are utterly polarized. I truly fail to see how it's possible for him to be BOTH a kind, courteous young man, more caring of her than her own son, yet in the next breath a veritable monster of whom she went in fear.
Maybe because he was good at concealing his true feelings after confiding to pupils at Gresham's about his parentage and being labelled "The Bastard" for eight years.
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april Excellent post. steve wants Justice for the 5 victims surely Jeremy serving life is Justice enough what more could he want think you are right about Julie.
Yes Jeremy serving life is justice.
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Well said Susan. If certain posters believe he is guilty , then he is exactly where he should be . So why waste time on here. What are they afraid of? I think it very unlikely he will get out on a technicality - even if it is proved there was a mis-trial. think it more likely that within the 100s of photos and apparently 1000s of pieces of evidence that the EP have still refused to release there will be something that will prove his position one way or the other. Or someone will break ranks and tell the truth about what happened on the night.It will just take one person to have a conscience and come forward and this will be solved once and for all.
And does it not seem crystal clear that if all of that secretly and firmly held onto evidence held ANYTHING AT ALL to further incriminate Jeremy, it would now be in the public domain, if only to stem the shouts of MoJ.
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He was planning the murders for such long time but that never, ever thought about that til he was there wading about killing his closest family. Give us a break Adam, only a vicious psychopath could carry out such a crime ........ that's why he has to be a psychopath even though proven not to be. If he's not a psychopath he couldn't have done it, you know that,, you all know that.
Correct. Things do not always go to plan. Things are missed. Nevill put up a fight. Sheila had to be shot twice.
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Well said Susan. If certain posters believe he is guilty , then he is exactly where he should be . So why waste time on here. What are they afraid of? I think it very unlikely he will get out on a technicality - even if it is proved there was a mis-trial. think it more likely that within the 100s of photos and apparently 1000s of pieces of evidence that the EP have still refused to release there will be something that will prove his position one way or the other. Or someone will break ranks and tell the truth about what happened on the night.It will just take one person to have a conscience and come forward and this will be solved once and for all.
Whether someone will find their conscience pricked with a £1million reward is one thing;how the Bamber is Guilty Brigade spend their leisure time is another. I will say this:Mike has done more with this site in a short space of time than any of those fancy London lawyers spending £200 per hour of clients' money.
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Maybe because he was good at concealing his true feelings after confiding to pupils at Gresham's about his parentage and being labelled "The Bastard" for eight years.
Only it seems, in your mind. Those who've examined him through the years find no trace of any personality disorder..................and in such confined space as he is in it would be more than difficult to hide nuances which could reveal something other.
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He was planning the murders for such long time but that never, ever thought about that til he was there wading about killing his closest family. Give us a break Adam, only a vicious psychopath could carry out such a crime ........ that's why he has to be a psychopath even though proven not to be. If he's not a psychopath he couldn't have done it, you know that,, you all know that.
People have an image of a psychopath as a Jack Nicholson character saying 'Here's Johnny'.
But they can be very charming. As mentioned Hanratty had many supporters. Even when DNA nailed him his supporters claimed it was contaminated. However the only DNA found was Hanratty's. Robert Napper was never suspected & Churchill said he would find Hitler charming if they ever met.
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Only it seems, in your mind. Those who've examined him through the years find no trace of any personality disorder..................and in such confined space as he is in it would be more than difficult to hide nuances which could reveal something other.
The cracks have shown sometimes.
When he lost an appeal Jeremy & other inmates wrote 'Jeremy is innocent' in excrement in Jeremys cell.
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Adam poor Nevill was beaten with the butt of the rifle when he was dead or near death whilst in a sitting position. Had Jeremy been the murderer why would he waste time heating some type of instrument to inflict burns on Nevill's back after death. This was an act of contempt in my eyes somebody felt very let down and abandoned. This is of course my opinion which I am allowed as are you.
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Adam poor Nevill was beaten with the butt of the rifle when he was dead or near death whilst in a sitting position. Had Jeremy been the murderer why would he waste time heating some type of instrument to inflict burns on Nevill's back after death. This was an act of contempt in my eyes somebody felt very let down and abandoned. This is of course my opinion which I am allowed as are you.
I agree. We are all allowed an opinion.
What a pity you are married, otherwise I would cook you a meal.
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People have an image of a psychopath as a Jack Nicholson character saying 'Here's Johnny'.
But they can be very charming. As mentioned Hanratty had many supporters. Even when DNA nailed him his supporters claimed it was contaminated. However the only DNA found was Hanratty's. Robert Napper was never suspected & Churchill said he would find Hitler charming if they ever met.
Indeed they can. However, what they can voice, but IMO, NOT feel, is emotion, so whatever words are being said there is a "deadness" there.
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There was also one window used as a cat flap I believe. The whole family were sitting ducks as Jeremy must have realized. The intolerable dreariness of his weekday existence,mitigated only by intermittent spliffs of cannabis pushed him over the edge as he realized a way out of his predicament,where fear of failing Nevill was the real reason,concealed by the pretence that he was putting them all out of their own misery. Jeremy yearned for a fresh start,which meant destroying everything in his wake. If he could have burned Nevill and June's bodies on the pyre with the bedding and the carpets he would have..
In court a will of Nevill's was shown.
It basically said Jeremy would get his inheritance if he had earnt it. That could mean another 20 years of 14 hour days. Even then he would have to share the will with Sheila & the twins, who had nothing on the farm.
As mentioned June was also thinking about changing her will to give the twins more.
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People have an image of a psychopath as a Jack Nicholson character saying 'Here's Johnny'.
But they can be very charming. As mentioned Hanratty had many supporters. Even when DNA nailed him his supporters claimed it was contaminated. However the only DNA found was Hanratty's. Robert Napper was never suspected & Churchill said he would find Hitler charming if they ever met.
This crime has the hallmarks of a rage killing, not of calculated murders for gain by a psychopath.
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The cracks have shown sometimes.
When he lost an appeal Jeremy & other inmates wrote 'Jeremy is innocent' in excrement in Jeremys cell.
Cracks WILL show..........in us all. It's what makes us human.
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Correct. Things do not always go to plan. Things are missed. Nevill put up a fight. Sheila had to be shot twice.
Did the twins need to be shot eight times all in all?
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In court a will of Nevill's was shown.
It basically said Jeremy would get his inheritance if he had earnt it. That could mean another 20 years of 14 hour days. Even then he would have to share the will with Sheila & the twins, who had nothing on the farm.
As mentioned June was also thinking about changing her will to give the twins more.
I believe that will to have been drawn up whilst Jeremy was still a minor. As an adult he would no longer have been subjected to that stricture.
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Adam two days ago you said Jeremy would have to graft for another 15 years now it has jumped to 20. Nevill at 61 you describe as a frail old man now you are saying he would go on farming till he was 81 make your mind up.
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Did the twins need to be shot eight times all in all?
It makes it look like a rage killing. Or perhaps it was.
Let's ask Jeremy.
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Adam two days ago you said Jeremy would have to graft for another 15 years now it has jumped to 20. Nevill at 61 you describe as a frail old man now you are saying he would go on farming till he was 81 make your mind up.
I said at 61 both Nevill & June would want a bedroom phone. At 21, I wanted a bedroom phone !
When did I mention 15 years ?
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I believe that will to have been drawn up whilst Jeremy was still a minor. As an adult he would no longer have been subjected to that stricture.
Why was it shown it court if it was so outdated ?
Jeremy had said he had seen the wills. Barbara Wilson saying Nevill wanted the safe key moved.
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It makes it look like a rage killing. Or perhaps it was.
Let's ask Jeremy.
I think he might not know. Anyway, he is being described as a cold, calculating murderer who had planned to wipe his entire family off the face of the earth. He would have known he would have to reload the rifle (BTW, that rifle was an odd choice for a somewhat experienced shooter), why "waste" so many bullets on two sleeping little boys - I don´t get it!
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Adam two days ago you said Jeremy would have to graft for another 15 years now it has jumped to 20. Nevill at 61 you describe as a frail old man now you are saying he would go on farming till he was 81 make your mind up.
Neville may cut down on his hours as he got older. But WHF, the caravan park & farm land would still be Nevill's. Jeremy would still be working long hours. It is no secret Jeremy hated farming.
If Nevill & June went into semi retirement, they are eating away at any potential inheritance, holidays etc. An inheritance Jeremy would have to share with three other people he felt did not deserve it.
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Why was it shown it court if it was so outdated ?
Jeremy had said he had seen the wills. Barbara Wilson saying Nevill wanted the safe key moved.
I wasn't aware the will had been updated. Don't you feel it somewhat illogical to leave THAT much to an adult one is SO uncertain of that they're required to prove their worth...................but it would seem reasonable to include such a clause for a child/minor.
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I think he might not know. Anyway, he is being described as a cold, calculating murderer who had planned to wipe his entire family off the face of the earth. He would have known he would have to reload the rifle (BTW, that rifle was an odd choice for a somewhat experienced shooter), why "waste" so many bullets on two sleeping little boys - I don´t get it!
My scenario has Jeremy shooting the twins last.
After reloading the second time he had at least 8 bullets left. Everyone else had been shot several times, except Sheila. Why not the twins ?
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My scenario has Jeremy shooting the twins last.
After reloading the second time he had at least 8 bullets left. Everyone else had been shot several times, except Sheila. Why not the twins ?
Because it makes no sense. Why would he make it more difficult for himself - it must have been daunting enough as it was.
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Because it makes no sense. Why would he make it more difficult for himself - it must have been daunting enough as it was.
Why is shooting the twins 5 & 3 times harder than shooting them both once ?
In my scenario he had already killed his mother, father & sister.
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Because it makes no sense. Why would he make it more difficult for himself - it must have been daunting enough as it was.
A very interesting point, Alias. I wonder if Adam is aware of the reality of the sights, sounds. tastes and smells that would emit from just ONE violent death, let alone 5....................and these were his family and as he WASN'T a psychopath he wouldn't have had the "luxury" of having no feelings.
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Adam go back and read your post 205 and you will see where you said Jeremy would have to work another 15 years now you are saying 20. I did read more of your posts as I flicked through them and I see in one you describe Nevill as a strong strapping ex RAF strong guy in another a frail 61 year old who would need a phone in his bedroom because of the stairs. As I went through your posts I thought to myself how sad I must be to be doing this ;D ;D ;D ;D it is only because it is raining and I cannot go walking :'(
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Why is shooting the twins 5 & 3 times harder than shooting them both once ?
In my scenario he had already killed his mother, father & sister.
Not in mine.
It would have made it harder for him because he would have had to reload the rifle. Renener he had to "control" FIVE people. It didn´t happen though, it is impossible. If Jeremy did not have an accomplice, I cannot see that he could have committed the murders. With an accomplice I can see it.
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Adam go back and read your post 205 and you will see where you said Jeremy would have to work another 15 years now you are saying 20. I did read more of your posts as I flicked through them and I see in one you describe Nevill as a strong strapping ex RAF strong guy in another a frail 61 year old who would need a phone in his bedroom because of the stairs. As I went through your posts I thought to myself how sad I must be to be doing this ;D ;D ;D ;D it is only because it is raining and I cannot go walking :'(
It is the same with Sheila. To make things fit for the nons, they have to flex between making her out to have been a zombielike, weak little woman, and on the other hand a loving mother who was getting her life together.
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Adam wrong again as the investments Nevill had would have increased in value I suspect he was a shrewd business man and the caravan park would have been making a fortune.
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Adam I am not married just winding you up so we can get together. Let me know the time and place I'll be there to kiss and comfort you" ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Alias we have a saying "if the cap fits wear it" that is what Adam does all the time ;D ;D ;D
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Adam go back and read your post 205 and you will see where you said Jeremy would have to work another 15 years now you are saying 20. I did read more of your posts as I flicked through them and I see in one you describe Nevill as a strong strapping ex RAF strong guy in another a frail 61 year old who would need a phone in his bedroom because of the stairs. As I went through your posts I thought to myself how sad I must be to be doing this ;D ;D ;D ;D it is only because it is raining and I cannot go walking :'(
Its not raining here and I just did a walk - and guess what its still groundhog day ;D Adam and Steve against the girls.
I would just like to say that the mention of the Will and that being the motive to me makes no sense - they were not the royal family for goodness sake . What else would they expect except for the assets to be split between both of them. That's what happens.And any way I just done see it as reason enough to kill your whole family ( otherwise there would be hundreds of such murders) . But if you see the evidence of SB illness and the indescribable things she said about her sons (independent statements by people who knew her) then there ,you can see not a motive ( because madness does not need a motive) but a definite build up to a very sad moment.
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There was nothing else he could do to "cover his tracks". Police had burned the carpets and bedding and Jeremy playing the innocent bereaved victim had conned the head of the investigation DCI Taff Jones. June and Nevill were similarly cremated to avoid an exhumation at a later stage. The map of the possible routes to the White House are here: I don't know the area but I assume there are many more possibilities travelling through open countryside.http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/bicycle
But it was you who wrote He returned to the scene of the crime in early September ostensibly to get his passport but far more likely to cover his tracks forensically
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Its not raining here and I just did a walk - and guess what its still groundhog day ;D Adam and Steve against the girls.
I would just like to say that the mention of the Will and that being the motive to me makes no sense - they were not the royal family for goodness sake . What else would they expect except for the assets to be split between both of them. That's what happens.And any way I just done see it as reason enough to kill your whole family ( otherwise there would be hundreds of such murders) . But if you see the evidence of SB illness and the indescribable things she said about her sons (independent statements by people who knew her) then there ,you can see not a motive ( because madness does not need a motive) but a definite build up to a very sad moment.
Jansus, I believe it's much more comfortable, especially for men, to think of killings taking place because of such motives as greed and psychopathy, than to take the unknown path which leads to a mother's feelings that she would indulge in sexual relations with her boy children.
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There was nothing else he could do to "cover his tracks". Police had burned the carpets and bedding and Jeremy playing the innocent bereaved victim had conned the head of the investigation DCI Taff Jones. June and Nevill were similarly cremated to avoid an exhumation at a later stage. The map of the possible routes to the White House are here: I don't know the area but I assume there are many more possibilities travelling through open countryside.http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/bicycle
So the "many" routes of Adam's were reduced by 3 routes when I asked what they were. Now according to this map there are in reality only 2. Either by road or by sea wall. Can we infer from this that Adam was exagerating a great deal when he said that Jeremy could go by "many" routes?
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Adam two days ago you said Jeremy would have to graft for another 15 years now it has jumped to 20. Nevill at 61 you describe as a frail old man now you are saying he would go on farming till he was 81 make your mind up.
No no Susan. Ralph is a frail old man when he fights Jeremy. But he's a strong 6ft farmer when he fights Sheila. ;D
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Yes Jeremy serving life is justice.
If he were the murderer. If not then it is a miscarriage of justice.
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jansus we are suppose to be getting gale force winds this afternoon :'( I agree the assets of the Bambers would have been automatically split between Sheila and Jeremy. What Adam is forgetting that Grannie Speakman was well heeled and old and frail and Jeremy was in that will so he would have got a nice sum there no need to kill his own family for one. I have read witness statements where it is documented that Sheila had episodes of violence and the twins were seen to have bruises and comments were passed by their teachers to Social Workers. Freddi was terrified of her when she had an episode and this is documented as well but as I said Adam will only believe what suits him. :'(
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1199.0.html
Adam and Steve should read this statement again.
I doubt very much if JB was aware of all of this . I still Imagine SBs parents wanting to keep most of this private. It must have been a very sad and difficult time for them. For any family to have to cope with this type of illness must be very stressful. I know what he says about violence towards the family but she had shown violence towards others and unfortunately it could have been that the first time it happened was the last. Murder does not always have a motive. Not in a disturbed mind anyway.
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People have an image of a psychopath as a Jack Nicholson character saying 'Here's Johnny'.
But they can be very charming. As mentioned Hanratty had many supporters. Even when DNA nailed him his supporters claimed it was contaminated. However the only DNA found was Hanratty's. Robert Napper was never suspected & Churchill said he would find Hitler charming if they ever met.
I actually remember the Hanratty case. I was in school at the time. Apparently the whole case hinged upon his victim recognising him. Without looking it up that's all I can remember about it.
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Grahame Adam is prone to exaggerating. ;D
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So the "many" routes of Adam's were reduced by 3 routes when I asked what they were. Now according to this map there are in reality only 2. Either by road or by sea wall. Can we infer from this that Adam was exagerating a great deal when he said that Jeremy could go by "many" routes?
The sea wall route may be ruled out because there was work being done on it in that area.
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Adam,
Would it be fair to suggest that you are a 'patrician'?
Do you identify your self with in some way with authority? Do you believe that miscarriage of justice campaigners are to be opposed, for a greater good? Even though the system has flaws, in the main it works and is good? It's better to sacrifice Jeremy Bamber than to bring the system in to disrepute?
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jansus I have just read the statement again and yes the Bambers would want to keep Sheila's illness quiet as it was a stigma back then. Sure Jeremy would only have heard snippets of how serious it was and a mentally ill person does not have to have a reason to kill something sets them off and they think that is the right thing they are doing. Sheila believed she was ridding the world of evil very very sad indeed.
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Roch
in his dreams he seems to want to solve the Jeremy Bamber case. Sorry EP did this not sure what Adam is trying to prove. Us all wrong I suspect ;D
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jansus I have just read the statement again and yes the Bambers would want to keep Sheila's illness quiet as it was a stigma back then. Sure Jeremy would only have heard snippets of how serious it was and a mentally ill person does not have to have a reason to kill something sets them off and they think that is the right thing they are doing. Sheila believed she was ridding the world of evil very very sad indeed.
Hi Susan,,even today,mental illness is still looked upon as a " plague-like " illness,,and we're no further on with research of brain conditions. Look at all the killings/murders that happen randomly specifically by those who suffer from schizophrenia.
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Hello lookout I agree mental illness is not talked about freely is it and people suffering from this illness are not getting the support they need and deserve. :(
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1199.0.html
Adam and Steve should read this statement again.
I doubt very much if JB was aware of all of this . I still Imagine SBs parents wanting to keep most of this private. It must have been a very sad and difficult time for them. For any family to have to cope with this type of illness must be very stressful. I know what he says about violence towards the family but she had shown violence towards others and unfortunately it could have been that the first time it happened was the last. Murder does not always have a motive. Not in a disturbed mind anyway.
Often schizophrenics target their own families. They start seeing them as enimies who are out to hurt them (Sheila clearly thought her sons could harm her, even kill her!). In some cases it tragically ends in murder. :-\
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Adam,
Would it be fair to suggest that you are a 'patrician'?
Do you identify your self with in some way with authority? Do you believe that miscarriage of justice campaigners are to be opposed, for a greater good? Even though the system has flaws, in the main it works and is good? It's better to sacrifice Jeremy Bamber than to bring the system in to disrepute?
Or as Lord Denning put it, "It is better an innocent man serves a life sentence than the law is seen to be making grave errors."
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april good sleuthing ;D ;D ;D
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But it was you who wrote
If you have the chief of Police on your side and evidence has been erased there is no need to return to the scene of the crime. If you get wind that the investigation is turning then evidently you are going to attempt to cover your tracks.
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Often schizophrenics target their own families. They start seeing them as enimies who are out to hurt them (Sheila clearly thought her sons could harm her, even kill her!). In some cases it tragically ends in murder. :-\
Alias, if we take this a step further to take on board the moral code, regarding sex, with which June imbued Sheila, we may find that Sheila's greatest fear lay in that she MAY be induced -remember her fear that they would seduce her- to have sex with her own sons, the ultimate taboo.
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Alias, if we take this a step further to take on board the moral code, regarding sex, with which June imbued Sheila, we may find that Sheila's greatest fear lay in that she MAY be induced -remember her fear that they would seduce her- to have sex with her own sons, the ultimate taboo.
In hindsight Sheila should not have been allowed to be with Nicholas and Daniel at all. So tragic, she thought Nicholas was a woman hater and had evil in him and would murder her!
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Adam go back and read your post 205 and you will see where you said Jeremy would have to work another 15 years now you are saying 20. I did read more of your posts as I flicked through them and I see in one you describe Nevill as a strong strapping ex RAF strong guy in another a frail 61 year old who would need a phone in his bedroom because of the stairs. As I went through your posts I thought to myself how sad I must be to be doing this ;D ;D ;D ;D it is only because it is raining and I cannot go walking :'(
Fifteen, 20 what is the difference ?
Jeremy hated farming & wanted to be a rich playboy NOW. While he was still young enough to enjoy it.
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No no Susan. Ralph is a frail old man when he fights Jeremy. But he's a strong 6ft farmer when he fights Sheila. ;D
I said in a big house Neville & June would want a bedroom phone.
The pathologist in court said Neville put up a huge fight for life in the kitchen. Unfit ?
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Fifteen, 20 what is the difference ?
Jeremy hated farming & wanted to be a rich playboy NOW. While he was still young enough to enjoy it.
Which seems to be the mantra settled on him by others.
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Alias we have a saying "if the cap fits wear it" that is what Adam does all the time ;D ;D ;D
I prefer stetsons. Preferably one that fits. I like to be a cowboy sometimes.
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Adam 5 years difference ;D told you he was due to inherit from Grannie Speakman who was old and frail and rich ;D
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Fifteen, 20 what is the difference ?
Jeremy hated farming & wanted to be a rich playboy NOW. While he was still young enough to enjoy it.
5 years.
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I prefer stetsons. Preferably one that fits. I like to be a cowboy sometimes.
Perhaps you'd care to talk through your fantasies Adam. I'm a wonderful listener and the soul of discretion :)
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It is the same with Sheila. To make things fit for the nons, they have to flex between making her out to have been a zombielike, weak little woman, and on the other hand a loving mother who was getting her life together.
In my scenario he shot June & the twins in bed. Then beat up a man who had been shot 5 times. Why did he need help ?
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Perhaps you'd care to talk through your fantasies Adam. I'm a wonderful listener and the soul of discretion :)
I can cook both you & Susan a meal.
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Its not raining here and I just did a walk - and guess what its still groundhog day ;D Adam and Steve against the girls.
I would just like to say that the mention of the Will and that being the motive to me makes no sense - they were not the royal family for goodness sake . What else would they expect except for the assets to be split between both of them. That's what happens.And any way I just done see it as reason enough to kill your whole family ( otherwise there would be hundreds of such murders) . But if you see the evidence of SB illness and the indescribable things she said about her sons (independent statements by people who knew her) then there ,you can see not a motive ( because madness does not need a motive) but a definite build up to a very sad moment.
Money is often a reason killings take place.
People do not often kill their families. Which is one reason why it is a high profile case.
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Now there's an offer you can't refuse. A man? cooking a meal. ;D
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In my scenario he shot June & the twins in bed. Then beat up a man who had been shot 5 times. Why did he need help ?
Because he had to control Sheila, I don´t buy that she slept through it all and let herself be shot without the slightest resistance. That does not fly with me.
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Its not raining here and I just did a walk - and guess what its still groundhog day ;D Adam and Steve against the girls.
I would just like to say that the mention of the Will and that being the motive to me makes no sense - they were not the royal family for goodness sake . What else would they expect except for the assets to be split between both of them. That's what happens.And any way I just done see it as reason enough to kill your whole family ( otherwise there would be hundreds of such murders) . But if you see the evidence of SB illness and the indescribable things she said about her sons (independent statements by people who knew her) then there ,you can see not a motive ( because madness does not need a motive) but a definite build up to a very sad moment.
Psychiatrists consulted by the defence all said Sheila was not capable of such a murderous rampage.
People said Sheila looked happy on her last day.
We only have Jeremys word (again) that they discussed fostering that night.
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Because he had to control Sheila, I don´t buy that she slept through it all and let herself be shot without the slightest resistance. That does not fly with me.
She was found in the main bedroom far corner. Maybe she was awake and cowering ? Not sure what was going on. There was a brief struggle & the first bullet fired. She carried on moving so another bullet was fired.
The second bullet killing her instantaneously.
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Hello lookout I agree mental illness is not talked about freely is it and people suffering from this illness are not getting the support they need and deserve. :(
Where I live , in July a ladys son who was 18 was sectioned into a NHS unit because of violent outbursts . He had not been violent before and they wanted help at home because they were at their wits end. But none was available - so he had to go temporarily into a unit. He suffered from epilepsy as well. 5 weeks later the staff left him unattended in the bath. He died. On top of everything else they now have to raise money to represent themselves at an enquiry. So yes I agree even now these types of illness are extremely difficult to deal with.
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Psychiatrists consulted by the defence all said Sheila was not capable of such a murderous rampage.
People said Sheila looked happy on her last day.
We only have Jeremys word (again) that they discussed fostering that night.
They all appear happy,Adam.This is the unpredictability of their illness I'm afraid.They blow hot and cold.
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She was found in the main bedroom far corner. Maybe she was awake and cowering ? Not sure what was going on. There was a brief struggle & the first bullet fired. She carried on moving so another bullet was fired.
The second bullet killing her instantaneously.
All the scenarios people come up with regarding Sheila´s death sound implausible to me. No one has been able to come up with something i find plausible with Jeremy as the killer.
Was Jeremy lying flat on his stomach on the floor beside Sheila when he shot her? Can´t see how else. :o
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Adam wrong again as the investments Nevill had would have increased in value I suspect he was a shrewd business man and the caravan park would have been making a fortune.
Increse or decrease, Jeremy would not inherit until Nevill died.
Nevill would have continued paying for Sheila's expensive flat & the twins schooling. While Jeremy the potential play boy was sitting on a tractor 14 hours a day.
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All the scenarios people come up with regarding Sheila´s death sound implausible to me. No one has been able to come up with something i find plausible with Jeremy as the killer.
Was Jeremy lying flat on his stomach on the floor beside Sheila when he shot her? Can´t see how else. :o
One of the appeals came up with some interesting new information.
This suggested Sheila was leaning against the bedroom wall when she got shot. The force of the bullets would not have resulted in her ending up flat on her back. Her legs must have been pulled afterwards.
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Increse or decrease, Jeremy would not inherit until Nevill died.
Nevill would have continued paying for Sheila's expensive flat & the twins schooling. While Jeremy the potential play boy was sitting on a tractor 14 hours a day.
Are you steve´s twin?
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Psychiatrists consulted by the defence all said Sheila was not capable of such a murderous rampage.
People said Sheila looked happy on her last day.
We only have Jeremys word (again) that they discussed fostering that night.
But you are only speaking of those consulted. Look at those who review the arts, Who is right and who is wrong. Peoples opinions differ.
People SAID "Sheila looked happy on her last day" but scant hours before she'd attacked a man in such a way he stayed in his car., and again, when she spoke ro her aunt, she sounded withdrawn. I suspect, given she'd just been rejected by her ex husband, was "trapped" -read Fergusons psych report- in a place she hated being- that the latter was closer to the truth. With someone whose temperament was as mercurial as Sheila's, I imagine it would have been difficult to tell from one moment to the next HOW she would be.
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I can cook both you & Susan a meal.
How kind ;D
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One of the appeals came up with some interesting new information.
This suggested Sheila was leaning against the bedroom wall when she got shot. The force of the bullets would not have resulted in her ending up flat on her back. Her legs must have been pulled afterwards.
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Views on the above.
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But you are only speaking of those consulted. Look at those who review the arts, Who is right and who is wrong. Peoples opinions differ.
People SAID "Sheila looked happy on her last day" but scant hours before she'd attacked a man in such a way he stayed in his car., and again, when she spoke ro her aunt, she sounded withdrawn. I suspect, given she'd just been rejected by her ex husband, was "trapped" -read Fergusons psych report- in a place she hated being- that the latter was closer to the truth. With someone whose temperament was as mercurial as Sheila's, I imagine it would have been difficult to tell from one moment to the next HOW she would be.
Nevill & June knew Sheila better than most. They invited her over to stay.
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But you are only speaking of those consulted. Look at those who review the arts, Who is right and who is wrong. Peoples opinions differ.
People SAID "Sheila looked happy on her last day" but scant hours before she'd attacked a man in such a way he stayed in his car., and again, when she spoke ro her aunt, she sounded withdrawn. I suspect, given she'd just been rejected by her ex husband, was "trapped" -read Fergusons psych report- in a place she hated being- that the latter was closer to the truth. With someone whose temperament was as mercurial as Sheila's, I imagine it would have been difficult to tell from one moment to the next HOW she would be.
Jeremy going over for supper that night meant he could give the police the 'fostering' story.
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Nevill & June knew Sheila better than most. They invited her over to stay.
They also knew Jeremy better than most. He came to the farm every, yet they had no problem letting him have free access to firearms.
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They also knew Jeremy better than most. He came to the farm every, yet they had no problem letting him have free access to firearms.
Jeremy did not have a front door key.
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Nevill & June knew Sheila better than most. They invited her over to stay.
Keep up Adam. The only reason she was there was because Colin was taking the boys on holiday to Norway and their grandparents wanted to see them before they went......................and even if they did "know" her, I don't recall it being recorded that either of them said she was happy on her last day.
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Jeremy going over for supper that night meant he could give the police the 'fostering' story.
He had supper there frequently, and the foster story conversation, as you call it, most likely took place. Jeremy, a young man, would not have come up with this - he didn´t really care that much about Sheila and her boys, did he? This wouldn´t have entered his mind. I say that that conversation DID take place. It is not strange at all. Colin had a new girlfriend and didn´t want the twins full-time, Sheila was getting too ill to take care of them properly (scizophrenia is a progressive illness). The twins had been in day-foster care earlier. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the anti Bambers keep talking about this as something Jeremy made up. It is stupid!
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well the police must have moved the body then because there is not a wall behind where her body is shown - I think there is some piece of furniture
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Adam,
Would it be fair to suggest that you are a 'patrician'?
Do you identify your self with in some way with authority? Do you believe that miscarriage of justice campaigners are to be opposed, for a greater good? Even though the system has flaws, in the main it works and is good? It's better to sacrifice Jeremy Bamber than to bring the system in to disrepute?
Adam, do you think these are fair questions?
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Keep up Adam. The only reason she was there was because Colin was taking the boys on holiday to Norway and their grandparents wanted to see them before they went.
I am sure you will agree I am keeping up.
If they were worried about Sheila they would not have her stay. If that means not seeing their grand children. So be it.
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Jeremy did not have a front door key.
so? I don't see why that is relevant. My sister has three grown up girls and they don't have keys . I have two grown up children and they do have keys? My sister likes her privacy ( read into that what you want ;)) I am quite happy for my two to come over when they want. I think you are trying to read too much into small things. They may not have let him have a key , but they were happy enough to let him use the guns in the house.
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I am sure you will agree I am keeping up.
If they were worried about Sheila they not have her stay. If that means not seeing their grand children. So be it.
GOD ALMIGHTY!!!! We've got ourselves another as devoid emotional intelligence as Steve. I can only say to that, I hope you see your own grandchildren differently.
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He had supper there frequently, and the foster story conversation, as you call it, most likely took place. Jeremy, a young man, would not have come up with this - he didn´t really care that much about Sheila and her boys, did he? This wouldn´t have entered his mind. I say that that conversation DID take place. It is not strange at all. Colin had a new girlfriend and didn´t want the twins full-time, Sheila was getting too ill to take care of them properly (scizophrenia is a progressive illness). The twins had been in day-foster care earlier. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the anti Bambers keep talking about this as something Jeremy made up. It is stupid!
Again, let's ask Jeremy if the conversation took place.
Not sure there were too many suppers. It was testified in court that Jeremy hated his parents. He had not spoken to June for years. He also told the police Sheila is a nutter & he didn't like her. Barbara Wilson said he had confessed to the caravan robbery, spending most of the money recently.
But that night Jeremy had to have supper at WHF. It would help him deflect attention to Sheila.
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Again, let's ask Jeremy if the conversation took place.
Not sure there were too many suppers. It was testified in court that Jeremy hated his parents. He had not spoken to June for years. He also told the police Sheila is a nutter & he didn't like her. Barbara Wilson said he had confessed to the caravan robbery, spending most of the money recently.
But that night Jeremy had to have supper at WHF. It would help him deflect attention to Sheila.
This is what you claim, yes. I do not agree.
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This is what you claim, yes. I do not agree.
I am just going by what was testified in court.
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Again, let's ask Jeremy if the conversation took place.
Not sure there were too many suppers. It was testified in court that Jeremy hated his parents. He had not spoken to June for years. He also told the police Sheila is a nutter & he didn't like her. Barbara Wilson said he had confessed to the caravan robbery, spending most of the money recently.
But that night Jeremy had to have supper at WHF. It would help him deflect attention to Sheila.
I imagine it far more likely that having worked a 14 hr day it was more convenient for him to eat with his parents that go home and cook for himself. Routine changes at harvest. Routine changes when there are visitors. Had you realized it was also Sheila's first visit to the farm in almost a year?
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In my scenario he shot June & the twins in bed. Then beat up a man who had been shot 5 times. Why did he need help ?
Oh, now he was shot 5 times before he was beaten. ::)
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Again, let's ask Jeremy if the conversation took place.
Not sure there were too many suppers. It was testified in court that Jeremy hated his parents. He had not spoken to June for years. He also told the police Sheila is a nutter & he didn't like her. Barbara Wilson said he had confessed to the caravan robbery, spending most of the money recently.
But that night Jeremy had to have supper at WHF. It would help him deflect attention to Sheila.
"It was testified in court that Jeremy hated his parents" Was Jeremy ASKED how he felt about his parents? YOU were the one who asked if people lied under oath. I feel perfectly certain that you're more than willing to believe Jeremy did. Are you as willing to extend the same view to others?
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I am just going by what was testified in court.
That he had said he hated his parents. A lot of people say they hate their parents and don´t go on to kill them. It doesn´t prove a thing.
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I imagine it far more likely that having worked a 14 hr day it was more convenient for him to eat with his parents that go home and cook for himself. Routine changes at harvest. Routine changes when there are visitors. Had you realized it was also Sheila's first visit to the farm in almost a year?
Jeremy had already seen his 'nutter' sister & the twins earlier in the day. He resented the twins. Doubt he was desparate to see them in the evening. Or Neville & June for that matter.
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That he had said he hated his parents. A lot of people say they hate their parents and don´t go on to kill them. It doesn´t prove a thing.
Nine year olds say it when told off.
Never met any adults who said it.
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Jeremy had already seen his 'nutter' sister & the twins earlier in the day. He resented the twins. Doubt he was desparate to see them in the evening. Or Neville & June for that matter.
OH GOSH, the man must have been something so very simple as HUNGRY and TIRED after many hours of work. This is getting silly!
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Nine year olds say it when told off.
Never met any adults who said it.
I have - I am one of them actually, and my sisters.
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Again, let's ask Jeremy if the conversation took place.
Not sure there were too many suppers. It was testified in court that Jeremy hated his parents. He had not spoken to June for years. He also told the police Sheila is a nutter & he didn't like her. Barbara Wilson said he had confessed to the caravan robbery, spending most of the money recently.
But that night Jeremy had to have supper at WHF. It would help him deflect attention to Sheila.
Adam have never heard the Jrremy hadn't spoken to June for years. As far as I remember Brett went to WHF with Jeremy to meet June and Neville, Julie used to sometimes read the twins bedtime stories, think you've been dreaming.
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OH GOSH, the man must have been something so very simple as HUNGRY and TIRED after many hours of work. This is getting silly!
No, probably more interested in getting fed. Reasonable, wouldn't you think, after a long day?
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Nine year olds say it when told off.
Never met any adults who said it.
I'd have sold my soul to have had someone I could say those words to.
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No, probably more interested in getting fed. Reasonable, wouldn't you think, after a long day?
Every single move, every single word Jeremy did or said is turned and twisted into something sinister - even having supper! :o
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Adam have never heard the Jrremy hadn't spoken to June for years. As far as I remember Brett went to WHF with Jeremy to meet June and Neville, Julie used to sometimes read the twins bedtime stories, think you've been dreaming.
Julies mother Mary Mugford testified this in court. As previously said.
Jeremy called Mary 'mummy' & offered her Junes car after the deaths. Jeremy told Mary that June was thinking of changing her will to give the twins more.
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Every single move, every single word Jeremy did or said is turned and twisted into something sinister - even having supper! :o
Yes Alias, I'm picking that up, AND where there are none obvious, the bottom of the barrel is getting well and truly scraped :D :D :D
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No, probably more interested in getting fed. Reasonable, wouldn't you think, after a long day?
Adam is just making stuff up imo Jeremy spent Christmas day with his parents, June lent him her bike for goodness sake, surely he must have asked her if he could borrow it.
Adam you are another guilter who just spreads myths and lies.
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Adam is just making stuff up imo Jeremy spent Christmas day with his parents, June lent him her bike for goodness sake, surely he must have asked her if he could borrow it.
Adam you are another guilter who just spreads myths and lies.
Can you not call me a lier please.
I am going by what I have read from various sources. Such as Jeremy not speaking to June for years.
No I was not dreaming. It was testified in court as just mentioned.
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I'd have sold my soul to have had someone I could say those words to.
Oh! April xxxxx ((((((((HUGS))))))))) xxxx
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Julies mother Mary Mugford testified this in court. As previously said.
Jeremy called Mary 'mummy' & offered her Junes car after the deaths. Jeremy told Mary that June was thinking of changing her will to give the twins more.
Adam dear, shall we look at that from another direction. Mary SAID Jeremy told her. If we return to your seemingly churlish dismissal of seeing grandchildren because of worry over mental state, MOST parents would lie through their teeth to protect their children. I VERY much doubt that Mary would have wished to see her daughter branded a liar and no one could prove, like much else said by Mugfords, what was actually said, because there, conveniently, was usually no one else there to verify it.
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Every single move, every single word Jeremy did or said is turned and twisted into something sinister - even having supper! :o
Yes that night is very important.
Jeremy heard rabbits ?! He loaded a gun with 10 bullets & went out in the dark to shoot them. But did not fire a shot. Then leaving the gun in the kitchen.
He also apparently heard talk about the twins being fostered.
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Yes that night is very important.
Jeremy heard rabbits ?! He loaded a gun with 10 bullets & went out in the dark to shoot them. Leaving the gun in the kitchen.
He also apparently heard talk about the twins being fostered.
Yes, that is what he says.
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Adam Maggie did not call you a liar she said you made things up a big big difference. You have a vivid imagination and post up inaccuracies like 15 years now 20 and you say it does not matter would do if Jeremy was saying it. You allow yourself mistakes but poor Jeremy could not even look right as far as you are concerned :'(
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Can you not call me a lier please.
I am going by what I have read from various sources. Such as Jeremy not speaking to June for years.
No I was not dreaming. It was testified in court as just mentioned.
Adam, perhaps it would be a good idea to prefix those quoted statements with "It is said that" OR "It is stated" That way there can be no misunderstanding.
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Adam dear, shall we look at that from another direction. Mary SAID Jeremy told her. If we return to your seemingly churlish dismissal of seeing grandchildren because of worry over mental state, MOST parents would lie through their teeth to protect their children. I VERY much doubt that Mary would have wished to see her daughter branded a liar and no one could prove, like much else said by Mugfords, what was actually said, because there, conveniently, was usually no one else there to verify it.
So Mary Mugford is lying under oath ?
Jeremy in court agreed he had a poor relationship with June.
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Can you not call me a lier please.
I am going by what I have read from various sources. Such as Jeremy not speaking to June for years.
No I was not dreaming. It was testified in court as just mentioned.
I haven't called you a liar I said you were making stuff up. I have NEVER heard it mentioned anywhere that Jeremy wasn't speaking to June and hadn't for years. He was speaking to June, where did you read that? Please tell. :)
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So Mary Mugford is lying under oath ?
Jeremy in court agreed he had a poor relationship with June.
So did Sheila. It does say in the doctor´s statement that jansus put up, that Sheila feared June, and that she had an extremely strained relationship with her.
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I haven't called you a liar I said you were making stuff up. I have NEVER heard it mentioned anywhere that Jeremy wasn't speaking to June and hadn't for years. He was speaking to June, where did you read that? Please tell. :)
I was thinking the same, I never heard this before. Where did you see it, Adam?
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So Mary Mugford is lying under oath ?
Jeremy in court agreed he had a poor relationship with June.
Jeremy admitted he had a difficult relationship in the past he stated he had a much better relationship with her over the past 18 months as he understood her better.
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Maggie he wont tell you because he can't. I have asked three times what evidence came to light that the police changed their mind from 4 murders one suicide to 5 murders virtually overnight still no reply.
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Adam Maggie did not call you a liar she said you made things up a big big difference. You have a vivid imagination and post up inaccuracies like 15 years now 20 and you say it does not matter would do if Jeremy was saying it. You allow yourself mistakes but poor Jeremy could not even look right as far as you are concerned :'(
She said I spread lies.
15/20, who cares ? Either way Jeremy would be stuck on his tractor a long time. He did not sit on his tractor much after the murders. Preferring to live it up.
Not even look right. What is that supposed to mean ?
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So Mary Mugford is lying under oath ?
Jeremy in court agreed he had a poor relationship with June.
Why is it SO hard for you to accept that some MAY lie under oath and some won't. I imagine Jeremy's description of his relationship with June was entirely accurate. I think, good woman though she undoubtedly was, she was also a very difficult woman to have a comfortable, easy relationship with. Colin was reluctant to leave his boys in her care because of it.
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I was thinking the same, I never heard this before. Where did you see it, Adam?
I just said it was testified in court.
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Maggie he wont tell you because he can't. I have asked three times what evidence came to light that the police changed their mind from 4 murders one suicide to 5 murders virtually overnight still no reply.
I already answered this. Keep up. You should know anyway.
Silencer, Mugford, relatives, Jeremys reaction. Some of the police were suspicious from the start.
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She said I spread lies.
15/20, who cares ? Either way Jeremy would be stuck on his tractor a long time. He did not sit on his tractor much after the murders. Preferring to live it up.
Not even look right. What is that supposed to mean ?
Adam, I'm beginning to experience your behaviour as childish. Please keep your toys IN the pram :D
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Adam I suggested to you yesterday that Jeremy had no intention of shooting rabbits (you don't hear rabbits unless you are a cat) he wanted out of the kitchen as a young man would find the strained atmosphere quite uncomfortable and would not wish to be present when they were discussing fostering. But it fell on deaf ears by the sound of it.
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I just said it was testified in court.
By whom?
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Why is it SO hard for you to accept that some MAY lie under oath and some won't. I imagine Jeremy's description of his relationship with June was entirely accurate. I think, good woman though she undoubtedly was, she was also a very difficult woman to have a comfortable, easy relationship with. Colin was reluctant to leave his boys in her care because of it.
Yes, Julie, Mary & the pathologist lied.
Jeremy of course did not lie.
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She said I spread lies.
15/20, who cares ? Either way Jeremy would be stuck on his tractor a long time. He did not sit on his tractor much after the murders. Preferring to live it up.
Not even look right. What is that supposed to mean ?
I meant you repeat myths and lies, I didn't call you a liar, you tell us you believe they are truths so please can you tell us where you have read or heard these facts you state as truths, St Adam. ;D
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By whom?
Read my recent posts.
Mary Mugford. Who is of course lying. Under oath.
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Yes, Julie, Mary & the pathologist lied.
Jeremy of course did not lie.
But if YOU are to be believed it's the other way round, isn't it?
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I meant you repeat myths and lies, I didn't call you a liar, you tell us you believe they are truths so please can you tell us where you have read or heard these facts you state as truths, St Adam. ;D
So everything I say I have to say where I read it.
Why should I ? No one else does.
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Yes, Julie, Mary & the pathologist lied.
Jeremy of course did not lie.
Exactly April even though we know Julie was a liar and a thief and a fraudster. How shameful.
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But if YOU are to be believed it's the other way round, isn't it?
Mugford, EP, Mary Mugford, the pathologist, relatives, the courts, appeal courts.
They are all lying.
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Read my recent posts.
Mary Mugford. Who is of course lying. Under oath.
Did she say that Jeremy hadn´t talked to June for a couple of years?
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So everything I say I have to say where I read it.
Why should I ? No one else does.
I feel certain that you're capable of more intelligent response the "Why should I" and POSSIBLY the reason others don't is because they don't just pull bits from books to throw around.
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Adam you said Jeremy tried to look concerned you said he tried to look sad you said he tried to look calm and what I said whatever way he looked was not right by you. Who said you spread lies certainly not me that is one word I never never use, What made the relatives think immediately after the shootings at WHF that Jeremy had murdered his family and stop copying my words. The reason I posted up about you quoted 15 years then 20 years you are making it up as you go on and getting things wrong. Try harder. ;D
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Exactly April even though we know Julie was a liar and a thief and a fraudster. How shameful.
Jeremy was a thief. Robbing the caravan park.
Mugford was the one who told the police about the caravan park.
The jury believed Mugford.
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So everything I say I have to say where I read it.
Why should I ? No one else does.
I and no doubt others would be interested to hear where you read it as many of us haven't heard it before. Most of what is posted on the forum comes from docs, statements etc. on the forum or from books.
Where did you read it am curious, we all have an open mind Adam ;D
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Mugford, EP, Mary Mugford, the pathologist, relatives, the courts, appeal courts.
They are all lying.
You may achieve more by clarifying your own words rather than trying to twist other peoples.
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I feel certain that you're capable of more intelligent response the "Why should I" and POSSIBLY the reason others don't is because they don't just pull bits from books to throw around.
I do not need to justify myself. I get my information from lots of sources.
And I do not accuse people of spreading lies & myths.
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Adam you may recall you were told two days ago by a senior member of this forum that the police approached Julie about the theft at the caravan park plus you are forgetting to mention her cheque book fraud, drug dealing very serious crimes I may add yet was she prosecuted for these crimes no she was not.I could go through your posts again and direct you to it but I do not have the will ;D
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I and no doubt others would be interested to hear where you read it as many of us haven't heard it before. Most of what is posted on the forum comes from docs, statements etc. on the forum or from books.
Where did you read it am curious, we all have an open mind Adam ;D
Because my arguments & information are good & I am not
following the pro Bamber line, people try to discredit what I say.
Susan won't watch Youtube videos in case it upsets her. She will not go beyond this pro Bamber forum. Then she starts attacking my threads.
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I do not need to justify myself. I get my information from lots of sources.
And I do not accuse people of spreading lies & myths.
Lets get this straight, shall we. If you repeat, from WHATEVER source, something which has been found to be questionable, and there are plenty out there, and you fail to mention that source, then, IMO, as YOU have said the words, as opposed to quoting them, it is YOU who is perpetuating the myth/rumour/lie. How are we to know the difference between your thoughts and the authors?
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Jeremy was a thief. Robbing the caravan park.
Mugford was the one who told the police about the caravan park.
The jury believed Mugford.
Yes, Jeremy was a thief when he stole from the caravan park, he was not involved in the cheque fraud carried out by Julie and her mate, that was quite a crime imo. Julie was taken by the police to the bank in order to confess and apologise, she sold her soul to save her skin and her career and banked £25, 000.
Not sure the jury believed her, or many others actually, it was the silencer that convicted Jeremy and we know how discredited that is now.
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Is this verging on getting to be a fight? I think we should all take a deep breath and appreciate each other. I think it is nice of Adam to always answer our questions as we answer him. We are all nice people, just happens that some of us disagree on this case, that´s all. :)
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Adam you may recall you were told two days ago by a senior member of this forum that the police approached Julie about the theft at the caravan park plus you are forgetting to mention her cheque book fraud, drug dealing very serious crimes I may add yet was she prosecuted for these crimes no she was not.I could go through your posts again and direct you to it but I do not have the will ;D
Jeremy was very unconvincing in court. The judge telling him to speak up and repeat things. Perhaps he was lying & everyone else telling the truth.
The prosecution closing speech highlighted that Mugford was much more believable. The jury believed Mugford.
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Adam the only reason Susan will not go to youtube is because I have a very slow connection and it takes too long. The only time I attack your posts is when you contradict yourself on a daily basis and I feel it is only fair I point this out to you. Some of your posts are great and you are posting up information we on the forum have never heard of before ;D
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I do not need to justify myself. I get my information from lots of sources.
And I do not accuse people of spreading lies & myths.
Well dont do it then no one will say it. I apologise if I have offended you. I didn't say they were your lies and myths just meant you should check your facts before repeating stuff which may not be true. ;D
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Yes, Jeremy was a thief when he stole from the caravan park, he was not involved in the cheque fraud carried out by Julie and her mate, that was quite a crime imo. Julie was taken by the police to the bank in order to confess and apologise, she sold her soul to save her skin and her career and banked £25, 000.
Not sure the jury believed her, or many others actually, it was the silencer that convicted Jeremy and we know how discredited that is now.
Did you read Andrew Hunters article from 4 days ago ?
Even Hunter says it is Sheila's blood on the gun.
The appeal is about serial numbers & back marks.
Clucthing at straws.
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Well dont do it then no one will say it. I apologise if I have offended you. I didn't say they were your lies and myths just meant you should check your facts before repeating stuff which may not be true. ;D
How can I check things I read ?
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Adam it was found very difficult to question Julie because of her tears she was so upset she could not speak clearly till she got outside the Court room and posed for the camera beaming all over her face tears soon forgotten :(
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Did you read Andrew Hunters article from 4 days ago.
Even Hunter says it is Sheila's blood on the gun.
The appeal is about serial numbers & back marks.
Clucthing at straws.
I doubt you have any idea what the new application is about. They have discovered lots of new information and evidence I believe. ;D
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Adam the only reason Susan will not go to youtube is because I have a very slow connection and it takes too long. The only time I attack your posts is when you contradict yourself on a daily basis and I feel it is only fair I point this out to you. Some of your posts are great and you are posting up information we on the forum have never heard of before ;D
Zzz
15, 20. Either way it is a long time.
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I doubt you have any idea what the new application is about. They have discovered lots of new information and evidence I believe. ;D
Just going by I read in an article from 4 days ago. The article I posted on here.
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How can I check things I read ?
I'm sure you know what I'm saying Adam. ;D
Can you remember where you read about Jeremy not speaking to June for years? Would love to know .
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Adam you may recall you were told two days ago by a senior member of this forum that the police approached Julie about the theft at the caravan park plus you are forgetting to mention her cheque book fraud, drug dealing very serious crimes I may add yet was she prosecuted for these crimes no she was not.I could go through your posts again and direct you to it but I do not have the will ;D
Didn't Jeremy deal in drugs ? Apparently he was under survilance.
Was Julie dealing cannibis at college ? Hardly scarface.
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Alias I agree lets all love one another. Make love not war is my motto ;D
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I'm sure you know what I'm saying Adam. ;D
Can you remember where you read about Jeremy not speaking to June for years? Would love to know .
For the last time, Mary Mugford testified this in court.
I read it in Wilkes book. I believe it & do not think the book would lie about what was said in court.
Or are Mugford or Wilkes lying ? Or both.
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For the last time, Mary Mugford testified this in court.
I read it in Wilkes book. I believe it & do not think the book would lie about what was said in court.
Or are Mugford or Wilkes lying ? Or both.
I have learned that you should not believe everything you read in books or newspapers. Is there any way to find a transscript of her testimony?
I will try to find it, but not quite sure where to look.
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For the last time, Mary Mugford testified this in court.
I read it in Wilkes book. I believe it & do not think the book would lie about what was said in court.
Or are Mugford or Wilkes lying ? Or both.
I read Wikes' s book but don't remember him ststing that. Maybe when he was younger?
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I have learned that you should not believe everything you read in books or newspapers. Is there any way to find a transscript of her testimony?
I will try to find it, but not quite sure where to look.
Good luck.
I am sure an investigative author was able to find it prior to writing a 5 star book.
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Good luck.
I am sure an investigative author was able to find it prior to writing a 5 star book.
We don´t have her testimony transcribed here in Hartley´s (excellent) thread in the archives.
I think that authors sometimes exaggerate to "sex things up", it is a common occurrence.
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I read Wikes' s book but don't remember him ststing that. Maybe when he was younger?
I am sure Jeremy took his friends to meet Nevill and June and Julie spent time at WHF, june lent him her bike for Julie, they spent one Christmas day with Jeremy and Susette Ford, Brett Collins went to WHF with Jeremy to meet his parents so when was the rift between them?
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Jeremy was very unconvincing in court. The judge telling him to speak up and repeat things. Perhaps he was lying & everyone else telling the truth.
The prosecution closing speech highlighted that Mugford was much more believable. The jury believed Mugford.
But does it NECESSARILY make Jeremy wrong and Julie right OR did she simply use tears to greater effect?
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We don´t have her testimony transcribed here in Hartley´s (excellent) thread in the archives.
I think that authors sometimes exaggerate to "sex things up", it is a common occurrence.
Hi Alias, I read Wilkes in the summer, sure I would have remembered if he stated as fact that Jeremy hadn't spoken to June for years. I shall have to look later. ;D
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I am sure Jeremy took his friends to meet Nevill and June and Julie spent time at WHF, june lent him her bike for Julie, they spent one Christmas day with Jeremy and Susette Ford, Brett Collins went to WHF with Jeremy to meet his parents so when was the rift between them?
It sounds impossible they did not talk to each other for two years. Sorry, I don´t believe it. They would have had to at least talk about practical things regarding the farm.
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Zzz
15, 20. Either way it is a long time.
If a poster has the courtesy to apologize to you for a misunderstanding, it would go a long way if you were to do the same instead of just writing something which denotes boredom, don't you think :)
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Quote: Mary Mugford.
Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. He resented her loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & he was more affectionate to me. He used to call me mummy all the time. He offered me his mothers car just after the shooting. He was going to keep no momentoes & he wanted to sell everything.
Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him to boarding school. He never forgave her for that. Apparently she was a religious maniac. Jeremy told me June was thinking of changing her will in favour of the twins. Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection to him.
Said in court.
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For the last time, Mary Mugford testified this in court.
I read it in Wilkes book. I believe it & do not think the book would lie about what was said in court.
Or are Mugford or Wilkes lying ? Or both.
If the author was quoting, how would they be able to ascertain truth from lie?
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Quote: Mary Mugford.
Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. He resented her loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & he was more affectionate to me. He used to call me mummy all the time. He offered me his mothers car just after the shooting. He was going to keep no momentoes & he wanted to sell everything.
Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him to boarding school. He never forgave her for that. Apparently she was a religious maniac. Jeremy told me June was thinking of changing her will in favour of the twins. Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection to him.
Said in court.
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Lie or truth ?
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Quote: Mary Mugford.
Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. He resented her loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & he was more affectionate to me. He used to call me mummy all the time. He offered me his mothers car just after the shooting. He was going to keep no momentoes & he wanted to sell everything.
Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him to boarding school. He never forgave her for that. Apparently she was a religious maniac. Jeremy told me June was thinking of changing her will in favour of the twins. Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection to him.
Said in court.
This is from the book, right?
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Adam ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;DZZZZZZ to you too and yawn yawn. At least now I know not to reply to your posts ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You make it so obvious when you are loosing the plot ;)
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This is from the book, right?
This is what the book said Mary Mugford said in court.
Do you think a respected investigative author would lie about what someone said in court in a murder trial ?
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Quote: Mary Mugford.
Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. He resented her loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & he was more affectionate to me. He used to call me mummy all the time. He offered me his mothers car just after the shooting. He was going to keep no momentoes & he wanted to sell everything.
Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him to boarding school. He never forgave her for that. Apparently she was a religious maniac. Jeremy told me June was thinking of changing her will in favour of the twins. Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any
affection to him.
Said in court.
Thank you Adam so it was a quote from Julie's mother not a statement by Wilkes. I remember now. She may have said that but not even the Eatons or Robert Boutflour ever mentioned that. I shall take it with a pinch of salt. I wonder if she was proud of her daughter selling her soul for £25, 000 laughing in a photo in the Sun, not one word for the dead just take the money and run. ??????
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This is from the book, right?
Right!!! Happy now? But let me ask you this: Who got inside Jeremy's head to confirm that all/ANY of it was true? The book came out AFTER the trial. The author wanted to make money. Who the hell was there to care about the odd "indiscrepancy" The more titillating the tale, the more books sold.............and the convicted person can't sue.
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This is what the book said Mary Mugford said in court.
Do you think a respected investigative author would lie about what someone said in court in a murder trial ?
I don´t know. I find it hard to believe they didn´t talk for two years - he worked at that farm!
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Lie or truth ?
Could be either, really couldn't it. Very much depends on who/what one feels inclined to believe.
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BTW, Mary Mugford couldn´t have known whether Jeremy and June talked, I don´t believe she saw them together.
So many possibilities of exaggeration: Jeremy could have exaggerated this when talking to her, she could have exaggerated it in her testimony and finally, the author could have exaggerated for max effect. And it still doesn´t make Jeremy a murderer.
Seems like both children of the Bambers had problems with their mentally unstable mother, Sheila and Jeremy both.
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BTW, Mary Mugford couldn´t have known whether Jeremy and June talked, I don´t believe she saw them together.
So many possibilities of exaggeration: Jeremy could have exaggerated this when talking to her, she could have exaggerated it in her testimony and finally, the author could have exaggerated for max effect. And it still doesn´t make Jeremy a murderer.
Seems like both children of the Bambers had problems with their mentally unstable mother, Sheila and Jeremy both.
Alias, when I THINK of the throwaway lines which COULD have incriminated me after my mother died!!! People knew she didn't get on with me, and whilst I never said the words "I hate her" I think many felt I may have had just cause. I think it highly likely Jeremy exaggerated,m especially if he felt he had a sympathetic audience. I probably would have done the same.
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april I agree think Jeremy would just say things for effect and to get attention. I am sure things were not that bad between Jeremy and June and Jeremy would be just full of bravado. It is like when Julie tried to smoother Jeremy I am sure she would not have actually smothered him it was just a gesture or a jealous rage ;D
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april I agree think Jeremy would just say things for effect and to get attention. I am sure things were not that bad between Jeremy and June and Jeremy would be just full of bravado. It is like when Julie tried to smoother Jeremy I am sure she would not have actually smothered him it was just a gesture or a jealous rage ;D
Yes Susan, whilst it wasn't a wonderful mother/son relationship, probably both being a bit of a disappointment to each other, I expect it was tolerable, especially after Jeremy had his own home.
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a couple of questions - I was reading the 2002 documentation and a lot of emphasis was put on the fact that SB had "clean feet" no blood. When did the photos come to light that show this was not true?
I could also see there was a lot of questioning about "contaminated " swabs.In other words apparently the police had not kept all the paperwork in order that went to the labs.
What was the story behind some shoes that she may have been wearing that went missing?
Were the socks ever part of the forensic evidence. Also they said her nails were in tact and manicured but were there photos of her hands? If they hid the photos of her feet did they do the same with her hands ? I don't just mean the ones with the gun , I mean specific ones ?
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april Jeremy would only have to see June at evening meal and I am sure they exchanged words round the table. Think Jeremy got on with Nevill though. June's religious beliefs got in the way of her relationship with Sheila and Jeremy. As I see it even if Jeremy did say all this stuff to Julie's Mother does not make him a murderer.
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Adam have never heard the Jrremy hadn't spoken to June for years. As far as I remember Brett went to WHF with Jeremy to meet June and Neville, Julie used to sometimes read the twins bedtime stories, think you've been dreaming.
I've told him a million billion times not to exagerate.
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Quote: Mary Mugford.
Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. He resented her loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & he was more affectionate to me. He used to call me mummy all the time. He offered me his mothers car just after the shooting. He was going to keep no momentoes & he wanted to sell everything.
Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him to boarding school. He never forgave her for that. Apparently she was a religious maniac. Jeremy told me June was thinking of changing her will in favour of the twins. Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection to him.
Said in court.
Yet another "unbiased" witness. ::)
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Lie or truth ?
An old bag sticking up for her daughter.
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Alias, when I THINK of the throwaway lines which COULD have incriminated me after my mother died!!! People knew she didn't get on with me, and whilst I never said the words "I hate her" I think many felt I may have had just cause. I think it highly likely Jeremy exaggerated,m especially if he felt he had a sympathetic audience. I probably would have done the same.
Even so Alias it is still hearsay and this should have been pointed out in court if that is where it was said.
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You have to wonder about Julie´s mother juuuuust a little bit, after all she brought up a daughter who was fine with posing like that in NOTW. :-\
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BTW, Mary Mugford couldn´t have known whether Jeremy and June talked, I don´t believe she saw them together.
So many possibilities of exaggeration: Jeremy could have exaggerated this when talking to her, she could have exaggerated it in her testimony and finally, the author could have exaggerated for max effect. And it still doesn´t make Jeremy a murderer.
Seems like both children of the Bambers had problems with their mentally unstable mother, Sheila and Jeremy both.
I agree Alias, I think June was a very strong minded woman which makes life difficult for teenagers in any situation. She was also very religious leaving texts around the house, pretty annoying when you're growing up imo.
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Grahame so eloquently put ;D ;D ;D
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You have to wonder about Julie´s mother juuuuust a little bit, after all she brought up a daughter who was fine with posing like that in NOTW. :-\
Agreed Alias, Julie wasn't someone for a mother to be proud of, wonder if her mother knew about the robbery and the check book fraud etc? :-\
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I agree Alias, I think June was a very strong minded woman which makes life difficult for teenagers in any situation. She was also very religious leaving texts around the house, pretty annoying when you're growing up imo.
What she did to Sheila was more than just annoying. Calling your daughter, the Devil´s childm, is unforgivable.
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Agreed Alias, Julie wasn't someone for a mother to be proud of, wonder if her mother knew about the robbery and the check book fraud etc? :-\
Maybe not then, she probably learned about it later. If not on the internet, she would have read articles in newspapers. She most certainly would have seen her daughter posing with her bare behind in NOTW. Wonder if she was proud of her daughter. Wonder if Julie´s sons have seen this - it would be easy for them to find this online.
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What she did to Sheila was more than just annoying. Calling your daughter, the Devil´s childm, is unforgivable.
That's true Alias and without making excuses the Speakmans did seem to veer towards fire and brimstone kind of old fashioned nonconformist religion. Think when Granny Speakman heard of the murders she declared it was 'the devil's work'. The devil was alive and well and living in the Essex countryside. Not at all good to speak to your daughter like that, I agree. :)
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It became quite obvious that Jeremy disliked his family and he could not understand why I was so close to mine. He didn’t like Sheila who he thought was crazy. He told me that she had mental problems and had done some horrible things to him in the past.He would not tell me what she had exactly done to him. Jeremy resented his parents ruling his life and trying to control as well.I in fact told him I couldn’t understand why if he hated them so much he just didn’t clear out. He told me he had too much to lose. He didn’t actually say what he had to lose but I guessed that he would lose the farm and caravan site which he told me he would get one day.Jeremy became very frustrated as he pointed the fact that his parents would not give him things, which he had worked for and had earned. He despised Sheila as she was being kept in a flat in London by her parents with all bills being paid.All Jeremy wanted was money although I told he was lucky at his age to have got what he had.During my Christmas vacation of 1984 which was between the beginning of December to the middle of January 1985 I was staying at the house in Goldhanger. At that time I was also working part time at Sloppy Joes in Colchester. During this period, I can’t remember if it was before or after Christmas, Jeremy made mention of killing his whole family. We were sitting in the house and he basically confided that he didn’t think his parents had done enough for him like buying carpets and furniture for his house. I know for a fact that he had to get a loan from the bank to buy things for the house. When I say for a
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Part of Mugfords WS.
Truth or lie ?
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Fact I mean that is what he told me.I know that he had about £800 saved up during the summer period of 1984 which he spent on things for the house but needed extra from the bank to finish furnishing the house.I remember now that sometime around October or November Jeremy was at home and was very angry about the way he was treated by his parents and in talking to Sheila he wished that he could get rid of them and all the family so he could live his own life. I told him he shouldn’t say such terrible things and I dismissed it as idle talk. From October or November 1984 Jeremy would often complain about his parents and would occasionally mention the fact that he wished they were dead.I remember now that it was just after Christmas 1984 he expanded on how he could kill the whole family. We came ……??… round the farm and he stated that he would like to kill his parents. He also said that he would have to kill Sheila and the twins as well. I asked him why as I could understand him talking about his parents like that but not about Sheila and the twins. I asked him why kill Sheila and the twins as they had done nothing to him. He told me that he deserved everything and Sheila had done nothing on the farm so she didn’t deserve anything. He also said she was crazy and he would be putting her out of her misery and by killing the twins it would be doing them a favour as they would grow up disturbed because of the way they were being brought up.I would mention also that prior to Christmas 1984 I had met Sheilas ex-husband who I know as Colin Caffell. I
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Seems like a young man caught up in the mid 80's 'loadsofmoney' culture & wanting it all. Now.
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Alias/Maggie I am quite perplexed at what Adam is trying to achieve with all the stuff he is posting up to try and discredit Jeremy who is serving a life sentence for murdering all his family. He was found guilty in a Court of Law what is he hoping to achieve by posting all this stuff about Jeremy hated his parents what is he trying to prove.
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Wasn't Jeremys' house at Goldhanger a " freebie ",rental-wise,,courtesy of his father ? Not far from his place of work. Jeremy knew he was more privileged,financially, than most his age. No doubt the upkeep of his car was also funded by Neville.
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Part of Mugfords WS.
Truth or lie ?
Lie. If true: Julie should have been prosecuted for accessory to murder - along with her other crimes.
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He said he had found a way in through a downstairs window which I think he might have said was a kitchen window. He said they would all be shot. He told me he could get out of the house through a window which the latch would close when the window was closed. He said as you close the window the latch drops down making it look as if the window had never been opened.I got very upset and insisted that he did not mention it again.Jeremy did not mention to me about killing his family until Tuesday 6th August 1985.I was at my home in Lewisham when Jeremy phoned me about 10pm.He said to me ‘ Hi honey’ I’ve just phoned up to ask how you are. I said to him I have had a wonderful day at work and that I was really happy and I wanted to make him happy. I asked him how his day had been and he said ‘ As best as can be expected’ as he had spent all day on the tractor; …???… it had been sunny and he had spent all day inside. I assume that he meant he was inside the cab of the tractor all day.I said to him ‘you sound pissed off’. He said I have been thinking on the tractor and the crime will have to be tonight or never. I told him not to be so stupid and that he was only saying this because he had had a bad day on the tractor. He also told me that he had only just got back from work and had had supper with his parents and Sheila and the twins and that was why he late in phoning me.
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What bits are wrong. Or all of it ?
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Lie. If true: Julie should have been prosecuted for accessory to murder - along with her other crimes.
I'll say,Alias. Also the police knowing that she had a previous record for fraud and theft,which they covered up for by way of a bribe via the NOTW. Commonly known as bribery and corruption.
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In the early hours of the morning, I have since found out from a friend of mine, Susan Battersby who was with me then, it was about 3:15am, I was woken up by another house mate Douglas Dale who told me that Jeremy was on the telephone. I got out of bed and went to the phone on the landing and said hello. I felt very dozy and I suppose I was only half awake. He said everything is going well, not to worry there is something wrong at the farm.I told him sleepily to go back to bed and he said bye honey I love you lots. I then put the phone down. I particularly remember the phrase ‘everything is going well’ I then got into bed and laid there for a few minutes when I suddenly came to my senses and realised what he had said.
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Hi lookout yes Jeremy had no outgoings at all just a little food shopping for when Julie came to stay and of course his social life for him and Julie. Everything was funded by Nevill included fuel to run his car/insurance/road tax. His wage was £170 per week and he had an income from his shares in the caravan park not a bad set up for a young lad of 24. He had Grannie Speakmans money to look forward to and she was very old and frail so he was in no rush for his parents money that would just appreciate over the years.
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Some of this is true. The phone call definatly happened.
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How would Mugford know about the window ?
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How would Mugford know about the window ?
She had seen Jeemy use that entrance at some occasion?
Why did the EP need 32 sessions with Julie to get her story together? 32 is a lot, probably more than a full week´s work.
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lookout what a great pity on the day of the murders at WHF Julie admitted she knew he was going to carry out the murders on that evening why oh why did she not warn the family and get Sheila and the boys out of the house and Nevill could have been waiting for him with the police all those lives could have been saved and she would not have had to identify those little boys in the mortuary. Jeremy would have been arrested wearing his wetsuit and gloves and June could have taken her bike back and Julie would still have criminal charges brought against her or maybe they would have been lenient with her for alerting the police and she could still have sold her story. Everything would have turned out the same other than the whole family would have lived.
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Some of this is true. The phone call definatly happened.
Only some of it ?? Meaning the majority of what you're saying,,isn't ! Very selective in your processing.
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lookout what a great pity on the day of the murders at WHF Julie admitted she knew he was going to carry out the murders on that evening why oh why did she not warn the family and get Sheila and the boys out of the house and Nevill could have been waiting for him with the police all those lives could have been saved and she would not have had to identify those little boys in the mortuary. Jeremy would have been arrested wearing his wetsuit and gloves and June could have taken her bike back and Julie would still have criminal charges brought against her or maybe they would have been lenient with her for alerting the police and she could still have sold her story. Everything would have turned out the same other than the whole family would have lived.
She did not know. She said herself she did not think Jeremy was serious.
In a TV interview she said Jeremy liked to say things to shock people.
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Alias it was common knowledge that Jeremy and Sheila often accessed the farm through a window no big deal they did not have a key. ;)
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Only some of it ?? Meaning the majority of what you're saying,,isn't ! Very selective in your processing.
I copied some of her WS. Word for word.
The defence when trying to pick holes in it pre trial admitted it had a 'ring of truth' about it.
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She had seen Jeemy use that entrance at some occasion?
Why did the EP need 32 sessions with Julie to get her story together? 32 is a lot, probably more than a full week´s work.
Do not know about WS. But they will have to be 100% accurate and the witness must be satisfied. They are going to questioned in court about it.
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I copied some of her WS. Word for word.
The defence when trying to pick holes in it pre trial admitted it had a 'ring of truth' about it.
Do you think that Julie could have saved the family? How come Jeremy was so confident she would NOT, carelessly telling her that he was going to kill them? Do you think she was in on it? If Jeremy is indeed the killer, I am 100% sure she was totally in on it!
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Do not know about WS. But they will have to be 100% accurate and the witness must be satisfied. They are going to questioned in court about it.
32 sessions.... They were so incredibly sloppy about all other aspects of this case, why the sudden thorough approach?
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Adam,,are you troubled by the fact that Jeremy has presented new evidence to the CCRC for next year ?
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Do you think that Julie could have saved the family? How come Jeremy was so confident she would NOT, carelessly telling her that he was going to kill them? Do you think she was in on it? If Jeremy is indeed the killer, I am 100% sure she was totally in on it!
If she warned the police about what he was saying, Jeremy would just deny it. Jeremy would then jilt her.
She also had to make a decision on whether he was serious. Not many people carry out such horrific murders.
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Adam,,are you troubled by the fact that Jeremy has presented new evidence to the CCRC for next year ?
Not really. Andrew Hunters article four days ago mentions serial numbers. Clutching at straws. He also says Sheila's blood is on the silencer & he does not hold out much hope.
Maybe Mugford will retract.
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Ha, ha!! How could she not know? She said he had talked about nothing else for around a year. Who jokes about stuff like that for a year??
She didn't know?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
What a pity Jeremy hated all his family.
I had teenage bust ups with my parents & sister. But by the time I was 24 everthing was great. We are all adults.
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If she warned the police about what he was saying, Jeremy would just deny it. Jeremy would then jilt her.
She also had to make a decision on whether he was serious. Not many people carry out such horrific murders.
Fancy her being worried about being jilted by someone who planned to kill 5 members of his family. No young woman would ever stick with someone who was so callous and so frightening.
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Fancy her being worried about being jilted by someone who planned to kill 5 members of his family. No young woman would ever stick with someone who was so callous and so frightening.
Jeremy did have a way with the ladies. Mugford was under his spell.
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I will read some more of my book tonight and give everyone some more updates. I am sure everyone is very excited.
It is the best current book about the WHF murders.
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If she warned the police about what he was saying, Jeremy would just deny it. Jeremy would then jilt her.
She also had to make a decision on whether he was serious. Not many people carry out such horrific murders.
Ummm, probably - but it would have saved the family! What kind of logic is that!!!
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Jeremy did have a way with the ladies. Mugford was under his spell.
I am sorry, but this is BS.
P.S. is Jeremy some kind or sorcerer? "Under his spell to the point of accepting that a whole family is wiped out!" And the nons are FINE with it, good Lord!
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I am sorry, but this is BS.
Both points true. He was good looking & very popular with women.
Having an affair with a much older woman when he was younger.
Mugford was under his spell. I am sure we have all been under someones spell at one point on our lives.
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Both points true. He was good looking & very popular with women.
Having an affair with a much older woman when he was younger.
Mugford was under his spell. I am sure we have all been under someones spell at one point on our lives.
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This is plain crazy. See my modified post above. Crazy the lengths nons are willing to go to to defend miss Mugford.
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Both points true. He was good looking & very popular with women.
Having an affair with a much older woman when he was younger.
Mugford was under his spell. I am sure we have all been under someones spell at one point on our lives.
So he was a good looking guy as are many others, Loads of young men have affairs with older women, Suzette Ford wasn'so much older, she was still a young woman.
We have all experienced young love but I don"t believe it would survive if you realised the object of your affections was a cold blooded killer..
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So he was a good looking guy as are many others, Loads of young men have affairs with older women, Suzette Ford wasn'so much older, she was still a young woman.
We have all experienced young love but I don"t believe it would survive if you realised the object of your affections was a cold blooded killer..
He was not a cold blooded killer until that fateful night. Even after the murders he said Mcdonald did it.
The relationship did not last long afterwards.
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Mugford is married with two children. And a respected teacher now.
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He was not a cold blooded killer until that fateful night. Even after the murders he said Mcdonald did it.
The relationship did not last long afterwards.
IT DOESN´T MATTER IF JULIE THOUGHT McDONALD HAD DONE IT - SHE COULD STILL HAVE SAVED THE FAMILY.
It lasted a whole MONTH, where she had even seen the dead bodies of them all.
I repeat: IF Jeremy did this, Julie was IN on it. Jeremy would NOT have told her about it unless she was IN on it and AGREED with what he was about to do.
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Mugford is married with two children. And a respected teacher now.
She basically fled England to a place she thought wouldn´t know about her past. I suspect the last few years have been hard on her with people going online.
I know teachers who are a-holes - and married people too. What is your point? Julie has a VERY stained past, I cannot respect her!!
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Mugford spent a long time with Stan Jones preparing the WS.
He is an experienced officer and will see a liar a mile off.
He would have made it totally clear to her the implications of lying to the police & in court.
Mugford stood firm.
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Yes he did didn't he, he went FAR beyond the call and coached her well.
I'm sure he most certainly does recognise a liar - he should do!!
So Stan Jones knew Mugford was lying but told her to continue & coached her.
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Mugford could have made a lot money since 1986.
Speaking in more detail about Jeremy, life since the trial & how she feels about that period of her life.
She has kept quiet.
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Mugford could have made a lot money since 1986.
Speaking in more detail about Jeremy, life since the trial & how she feels about that period of her life.
She has kept quiet.
If she had gone out and talked more about this, she could have waved byebye to any teacher job in the future. A few newspaper articles and perhaps a tell-all book would have brought less money than a steady job.
Or has she kept quiet because she was lying in the first place. Fugative Julie.
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Part of Mugfords WS.
Truth or lie ?
Whether it be truth or a lie one wonders if it was true why she stayed with him if he was like that? Certainly not a woman I would trust to give a true testimony of Jeremy.
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Whether it be truth or a lie one wonders if it was true why she stayed with him if he was like that? Certainly not a woman I would trust to give a true testimony of Jeremy.
She isn´t very trustworthy, is she. Criminal and all. The cheque fraud that Jeremy was not involved in at all, she still managed to wipe off on him, as she claimed she did it to impress him.....
Who is the psychopath?
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Fact I mean that is what he told me.I know that he had about £800 saved up during the summer period of 1984 which he spent on things for the house but needed extra from the bank to finish furnishing the house.I remember now that sometime around October or November Jeremy was at home and was very angry about the way he was treated by his parents and in talking to Sheila he wished that he could get rid of them and all the family so he could live his own life. I told him he shouldn’t say such terrible things and I dismissed it as idle talk. From October or November 1984 Jeremy would often complain about his parents and would occasionally mention the fact that he wished they were dead.I remember now that it was just after Christmas 1984 he expanded on how he could kill the whole family. We came ……??… round the farm and he stated that he would like to kill his parents. He also said that he would have to kill Sheila and the twins as well. I asked him why as I could understand him talking about his parents like that but not about Sheila and the twins. I asked him why kill Sheila and the twins as they had done nothing to him. He told me that he deserved everything and Sheila had done nothing on the farm so she didn’t deserve anything. He also said she was crazy and he would be putting her out of her misery and by killing the twins it would be doing them a favour as they would grow up disturbed because of the way they were being brought up.I would mention also that prior to Christmas 1984 I had met Sheilas ex-husband who I know as Colin Caffell. I
So she knew all this back in 1984? But it is obvious that if he did say all that about Sheila and the kids she thought he was joking? But don't you think it rather strange that when his family had all been killed that it still didn't click with her that Jeremy did it? Not until........He dumped her of course. Oh I get it. If Jeremy did do it then she was complicit with it. Or why would she wait until after he dumped her? There definitely something wrong with her testimony. Either she was lying. Or she was in it with him? And if he hadn't dumped her she would have remained silent.
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What bits are wrong. Or all of it ?
Well if it is right, then she was certainly an accessory after the act.
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She isn´t very trustworthy, is she. Criminal and all. The cheque fraud that Jeremy was not involved in at all, she still managed to wipe off on him, as she claimed she did it to impress him.....
Who is the psychopath?
Took the words right out of my mouth, Alias was just going to post the same ........ 'who's the psychpath?' Have thought this before. :D
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In the early hours of the morning, I have since found out from a friend of mine, Susan Battersby who was with me then, it was about 3:15am, I was woken up by another house mate Douglas Dale who told me that Jeremy was on the telephone. I got out of bed and went to the phone on the landing and said hello. I felt very dozy and I suppose I was only half awake. He said everything is going well, not to worry there is something wrong at the farm.I told him sleepily to go back to bed and he said bye honey I love you lots. I then put the phone down. I particularly remember the phrase ‘everything is going well’ I then got into bed and laid there for a few minutes when I suddenly came to my senses and realised what he had said.
Wasn't she the least bit curious as to those cryptic words? "There is something wrong at the farm". The was something wrong at the farm so she told him to go back to bed? It is obvious how she interpreted that message on the night. Everything is going well. Don't worry, but I think there's something wrong at the farm. (What shall I do)
She doesn't count it very important so she tells him to go back to bed. But Jeremy is still concerned and sais to himself. Hmm. It might be nothing. But I'd better phone the police. Perhaps they can help. Phones police: "Hello. I wonder if you can help me etc....."
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How would Mugford know about the window ?
She read it in the newspaper like everybody else. Remember she didn't give her testimony til ages after the event. In fact she said nothing that the newspapers didn't publish.
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She isn´t very trustworthy, is she. Criminal and all. The cheque fraud that Jeremy was not involved in at all, she still managed to wipe off on him, as she claimed she did it to impress him.....
Who is the psychopath?
If she has psychopathic tendencies she could easily condemn him to a life in prison and walk off with the £25, 000 without a backward glance.
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Adam . no offence but you are wasting your time. The posters who think or believe JB is innocent will also think JM is telling lies. She told the N.O.W that he never admitted his guilt to her and also lied in court about the involvement of the police in her visit to the bank to "admit the fraud". She was paid whilst carrying out the 32 interviews with the police. And even if she was telling the truth later - then like BW she was telling lies in her original statements which tied up exactly with what JB said. Like you said earlier money is a good motive for murder . It is also a good motive to lie.
I don't know , perhaps she did believe he did it and was "persuaded " to embellish the story in order for the police to get a conviction as they had very little left to go on. And maybe then she thought that was morally acceptable. But to keep quiet for a month - that's not morally acceptable in my eyes. Also read what the judge said about her testimony, Apparently she was in such a state that her evidence should not be relied on.
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Also strange that she was in such a state whilst giving evidence - but carried out the ID of the bodies and those terrible pictures for the N.O.W without a backward glance.
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She read it in the newspaper like everybody else. Remember she didn't give her testimony til ages after the event. In fact she said nothing that the newspapers didn't publish.
It was murder/suicide. The press did not mention a window.
Bamber was questioned in his interview transcripts about how Mugford knew about the kitchen fight and bible.
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Jeremy did have a way with the ladies. Mugford was under his spell.
Oh yeah yeah. Unfortunately doesn't see that as an excuse to be an accessory after the fact. Oh I am sorry. They didn't bring any charges against her because she was prepared to stand up in court to say Jeremy murdered his whole family. Some spell. ::)
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This is plain crazy. See my modified post above. Crazy the lengths nons are willing to go to to defend miss Mugford.
In reality she was just one shit girlfriend.
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Also strange that she was in such a state whilst giving evidence - but carried out the ID of the bodies and those terrible pictures for the N.O.W without a backward glance.
It seemed as if she just didn't seem to understand acceptable behaviour. The crying may have been put on, manipulation, sympathy chasing? It's possible.
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Mugford is married with two children. And a respected teacher now.
You show me a respectable person and I'll show you a good person who is not respected by society. She does charity work as well. So did Sir Robert Maxwell and he was respectable. Knited even. But he was a crook.
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Mugford spent a long time with Stan Jones preparing the WS.
He is an experienced officer and will see a liar a mile off.
He would have made it totally clear to her the implications of lying to the police & in court.
Mugford stood firm.
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick016.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
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You show me a respectable person and I'll show you a good person who is not respected by society. She does charity work as well. So did Sir Robert Maxwell and he was respectable. Knited even. But he was a crook.
Think it's claimed he was a psychpath, isn't it? Many such people do charitable works to gain power and admiration, makes them look good, doesn't mean they are.
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Adam . no offence but you are wasting your time. The posters who think or believe JB is innocent will also think JM is telling lies. She told the N.O.W that he never admitted his guilt to her and also lied in court about the involvement of the police in her visit to the bank to "admit the fraud". She was paid whilst carrying out the 32 interviews with the police. And even if she was telling the truth later - then like BW she was telling lies in her original statements which tied up exactly with what JB said. Like you said earlier money is a good motive for murder . It is also a good motive to lie.
I don't know , perhaps she did believe he did it and was "persuaded " to embellish the story in order for the police to get a conviction as they had very little left to go on. And maybe then she thought that was morally acceptable. But to keep quiet for a month - that's not morally acceptable in my eyes. Also read what the judge said about her testimony, Apparently she was in such a state that her evidence should not be relied on.
I know this is a pro Bamber forum.
Everything I say people will automatically say the opposite or defend Jeremy. I do not mind that. As long as they do not start accusing me of spreading lies & myths or question my sources. My sources are the same as everyone else's. My eyes.
I like finding out new things about the case. I was questioning why a bike was put outside Jeremys cottage a few days before the murders. Another poster said Jeremy bought it for Julie so she could cycle to the station. How nice.
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I know this is a pro Bamber forum.
Everything I say people will automatically say the opposite or defend Jeremy. I do not mind that. As long as they do not start accusing me of spreading lies & myths or question my sources. My sources are the same as everyone else's. My eyes.
I like finding out new things about the case. I was questioning why a bike was put outside Jeremys cottage a few days before the murders. Another poster said Jeremy bought it for Julie so she could cycle to the station. How nice.
Well it was JM who said it first. Not the poster on the forum.
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Why are you going on about the window? There is NO evidence that anyone got in or out of a window - it was a theory or how he MIGHT have got in/out.
Jeremy was found guilty & has failed to get released.
He got in & out of the windows.
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Actually I did not realise JM did not even go to the police - it was her friend Liz - who told the police JM had been with holding evidence ( after telling JM she had been sleeping with JB) So JM was arrested .It was only at this point that JM admitted drug smuggling amongst other things. So if Liz had not gone to the police JM would not have come forward. Even worse. So was she a fantasist and attention seeker and her lies came back to bite her in the butt?
Also if JB and JM were under observation by the drugs squad - they did not do a very good job did they?
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I know this is a pro Bamber forum.
Everything I say people will automatically say the opposite or defend Jeremy. I do not mind that. As long as they do not start accusing me of spreading lies & myths or question my sources. My sources are the same as everyone else's. My eyes.
I like finding out new things about the case. I was questioning why a bike was put outside Jeremys cottage a few days before the murders. Another poster said Jeremy bought it for Julie so she could cycle to the station. How nice.
Jeremy didn't buy the bike he borrowed it from June for Julie to use to get to the station to do her summer job. Maybe they used sign language if they didn't speak?
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You show me a respectable person and I'll show you a good person who is not respected by society. She does charity work as well. So did Sir Robert Maxwell and he was respectable. Knited even. But he was a crook.
Jimmy saville?
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Jimmy saville?
Exactly, Jansus ...... ugh!!
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Jeremy didn't buy the bike he borrowed it from June for Julie to use to get to the station to do her summer job. Maybe they used sign language if they didn't speak?
;D ;D anyway he admitted to the police he had had a difficult relationship with his mother but said that it had been fine in recent months - also he said he had not seen SC handle a gun - so he was not that clever was he.
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;D ;D anyway he admitted to the police he had had a difficult relationship with his mother but said that it had been fine in recent months - also he said he had not seen SC handle a gun - so he was not that clever was he.
No. Pulling a trigger is ok. But loading, twice.
She must have given Nevill black eyes, damaged jaw, damaged teeth, damaged neck & damaged larynx before the first re load.
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The fact is neither JB or SC seemed to have any signs of having been in a fight or a struggle - so how do you answer that. If you are going to apply the argument to SC then you must do the same to JB.
That's the reason I asked about her nails and hands -but the way the police pictures are shown you can see very little. I am also questioning the marks on her fathers arms - where did they come from ?
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I am still questioning and not just making statements. And can not see how you think JM is so perfect when she was involved in drug smuggling between uk and Canada and also if she had not been arrested did not look as if she had any intention of going to the police. BTW the original taped interviews after her arrest have never been released.
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They look like gouge marks from 'nails' but no nail scraping were taken - at least, that's what the official line is.
Yes that's what I thought , but even in murder suicide you would think that was a basic thing to do , to establish the full picture.
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The fact is neither JB or SC seemed to have any signs of having been in a fight or a struggle - so how do you answer that. If you are going to apply the argument to SC then you must do the same to JB.
That's the reason I asked about her nails and hands -but the way the police pictures are shown you can see very little. I am also questioning the marks on her fathers arms - where did they come from ?
Nevill was awoken by shots going into June. He saw a tall dark man with a gun & started getting out of bed.
Jeremy turned the gun on Nevill. Getting four shots on target but failing to get a head shot. Nevill now realised it was Jeremy & headed downstairs.
Jeremy carried on shooting but only one more bullet came out. Hitting Nevill in the back. There was no time to load or let Nevill use the phone.
Jeremy ran after Nevill & hit him so hard with the rifle butt it dented it. Further brutal blows were made by a fired up Jeremy on a gun shot wounded Nevill. Lamp shades smashed, cuterly falling on the floor.
Eventually Nevill stopped moving. He had two black eyes, damaged teeth, neck, jaw & larynx. The gun was loaded again.
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Part of my scenario in more detail.
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You're going around in circles mate!!
How & when do you think Nevill got his beating from Sheila ?
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I'm not going over this again - I refuse to get sucked into what has become your merry-go-round. And as pointed out - there is an E on the end of Nevill'e'. I'm really not convinced you're a serious poster or if you are extracting the proverbial. If I am wrong, I'll apologise but something don't ring true!!
Don't try to turn the attention on me.
Thought if you believe Jeremy innocent you would have a theory on how Sheila did the beating.
People that think Bamber guilty always say Sheila could not have given Nevill such a beating. Injured or not. And I do not believe he would be beaten after being shot in the head & killed.
Nevill had major head injuries. But was 8 inches taller than Sheila. The pathologist said Nevill put up a big fight.
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I have already told you I HATE scenarios because they are POINTLESS. It doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe - we weren't there!! Your scenario or my scenario doesn't mean anything because neither can be proven either way. It's a waste of energy because it means nothing!!
This is a discussion forum.
Neville got a brutal face beating from Sheila. Discuss.
Susan said it was after he was dead. Meaning he was shot 5 times before reaching the kitchen & then three head shots in the kitchen.
She must have been in a serious rage to give a dead man such a beating.
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I think it is actually Nevill, not Neville... :-[
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Rage? Do you know anything about psychosis? I give up!!
I know nothing sbout psychosis. Enlighten me, rather than just make immature digs.
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Do some research!!
Thanks. Very mature.
In other words you know nothing either.
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Adam can't wait for more updates on the RW book :'( Better get it finished as when Mason Doyle's book is published in the Spring you will not beable to put it down and the forum will be quiet without you ;D ;D ;D
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Morning jansus IMO Julie spent the whole time in Court weeping and spluttering to try and prevent any intensive questioning as she would not be confident about the evidence she was giving. The trial should have been halted for her to compose herself she soon got rid of the tears outside the Court smiling and posing for the press probably thinking about what she was going to spend her £25.000 on she did not show any sadness for the 5 people who had lost their lives to enable her to receive this money. Shame on her.
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Adam can't wait for more updates on the RW book :'( Better get it finished as when Mason Doyle's book is published in the Spring you will not beable to put it down and the forum will be quiet without you ;D ;D ;D
I will read the reviews before buying the book. I always do that.
I will read more of RW book soon.
What happened to Andrew Hunters book ?
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Morning jansus IMO Julie spent the whole time in Court weeping and spluttering to try and prevent any intensive questioning as she would not be confident about the evidence she was giving. The trial should have been halted for her to compose herself she soon got rid of the tears outside the Court smiling and posing for the press probably thinking about what she was going to spend her £25.000 on she did not show any sadness for the 5 people who had lost their lives to enable her to receive this money. Shame on her.
Mugford testified for one and a half days.
The expensive defence lawyers would have grilled her as much as they could. Mugford crying would not have stopped them. Mugford kept to her version.
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Morning Adam
don't know anything about his book. Maybe getting published next year as well. Always best to read reviews before you buy I don't of course as I have so much confidence in Mason Doyle's book ;)
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Adam I have no doubts she stuck to her version. ;D in between the tears.
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You've read Wilkes's book - it made her almost impossible to question!! However, when questioned by the prosecution, no tears - strange that!! I guess she could remember her lines better with the correct prompts! ;)
That is right. The prosecution would be nice to her. The defence less so.
Both would have questioned her using her signed WS. This was written up with experienced police officer Stan Jones. He would have spotted if she was lying straight away.
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Morning Adam
don't know anything about his book. Maybe getting published next year as well. Always best to read reviews before you buy I don't of course as I have so much confidence in Mason Doyle's book ;)
Hunter said five days ago it was Sheila's blood on the silencer. This automatically makes Jeremy gulity.
Maybe Hunter thinks Jeremy had an unfair trial & should be released.
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Adam I am sure if Andrew Hunter thinks Jeremy is Guilty he will not say he had an unfair Trial and should be released. Does not make sense to me. Perhaps your post was a typo error;D Or is that maybe a sarcastic dig at me ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam I am sure if Andrew Hunter thinks Jeremy is Guilty he will not say he had an unfair Trial and should be released. Does not make sense to me. Perhaps your post was a typo error;D Or is that maybe a sarcastic dig at me ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sorry. Not having a dig.
Did you read Hunters article yesterday ? I copied it onto here. He said that it was Sheila's blood on the silencer. There was also a documentary where Hunter was interviewed. He said 'the silencer evidence, yes there it is'. In other words saying it is correct evidence.
The pathologist at court said Sheila could not have walked upstairs after the first shot. There would be no reason for her to put the silencer away. Her arms were too short to fire the gun & two cartridges were found upstairs next to her body.
So how did the silencer with Sheila's blood get into a box in the gun cupboard ?
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Nevill was awoken by shots going into June. He saw a tall dark man with a gun & started getting out of bed.
Jeremy turned the gun on Nevill. Getting four shots on target but failing to get a head shot. Nevill now realised it was Jeremy & headed downstairs.
Jeremy carried on shooting but only one more bullet came out. Hitting Nevill in the back. There was no time to load or let Nevill use the phone.
Jeremy ran after Nevill & hit him so hard with the rifle butt it dented it. Further brutal blows were made by a fired up Jeremy on a gun shot wounded Nevill. Lamp shades smashed, cuterly falling on the floor.
Eventually Nevill stopped moving. He had two black eyes, damaged teeth, neck, jaw & larynx. The gun was loaded again.
Could you please tell me where you got this information from and of course the rest of it? Or does it originate from your own imagination?
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They look like gouge marks from 'nails' but no nail scraping were taken - at least, that's what the official line is.
Yet another oversight. The truth is that the investigation was incomplete. This is the reason that it is a miscarriage of justice. Otherwise there would not be so many people including myself who believe him to be innocent. We're not stupid.
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Could you please tell me where you got this information from and of course the rest of it? Or does it originate from your own imagination?
My imagination.
However it is matching the facts - Neville was shot four times upstairs, once on the stairs, was brutally beaten & shot three times in the head.
How & when do you think Neville got his teeth, jaw, eye, neck & larynx injuries ?
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How & when do you think Nevill got his beating from Sheila ?
Probably, because there were no marks on her (or Jeremy if it comes to it) after he was incapacitated by bullets?
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Probably, because there were no marks on her (or Jeremy if it comes to it) after he was incapacitated by bullets?
So after accuratly firing three bullet shots into Neville's head in the kitchen, she then spent the next few minutes brutally beating a dead man ?
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Don't try to turn the attention on me.
Thought if you believe Jeremy innocent you would have a theory on how Sheila did the beating.
People that think Bamber guilty always say Sheila could not have given Nevill such a beating. Injured or not. And I do not believe he would be beaten after being shot in the head & killed.
Nevill had major head injuries. But was 8 inches taller than Sheila. The pathologist said Nevill put up a big fight.
If he did put up a big fight then where are the marks on Sheila or Jeremy? Just because you do not personally believe something does not make it untrue. There are many people who think otherwise. The hard evidence is (and this is what we must go by) is that there were no marks either on Sheila, or Jeremy which were consistent with a "big fight". Logic: He did not put up a big fight. Conclusion: He was already incapacitated. Pure logic my friend.
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Mugford testified for one and a half days.
The expensive defence lawyers would have grilled her as much as they could. Mugford crying would not have stopped them. Mugford kept to her version.
And most of that time was spent bawling her eyes out. BIG crocodile tears to use a term referring to Jeremy at the funeral. :'(
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Hunter said five days ago it was Sheila's blood on the silencer. This automatically makes Jeremy gulity.
Maybe Hunter thinks Jeremy had an unfair trial & should be released.
No it doesn't. RWB had the same blood group and there are those who believe that it was his blood in the silencer put there by him. I personally do not believe that because there was plenty of Sheila's blood around. It is intriguing though that Jeremy, if it was him did not work out long before the murders that Sheila could not reach the trigger with the silencer on. All in all it doesnot have the distinctive marks of a well planned murder? On the contrary, to me at least it looks rather like a crime of passion. where the murderer lost all control and carried out the murders in some kind of rage? But I could be wrong? Unlike your scenario. ;)
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If he did put up a big fight then where are the marks on Sheila or Jeremy? Just because you do not personally believe something does not make it untrue. There are many people who think otherwise. The hard evidence is (and this is what we must go by) is that there were no marks either on Sheila, or Jeremy which were consistent with a "big fight". Logic: He did not put up a big fight. Conclusion: He was already incapacitated. Pure logic my friend.
He was shot 5 times in the torso upstairs & on the stairs. But was found in the kitchen.
So he had the strenght to get to the kitchen where the pathologist said he put up a big fight for life.
The likelihood is Neville fought in the kitchen with 5 torso bullet wounds.
Surely with those injuries he could still have won a fight with Sheila. Or at least left marks on her. However a young, fit Jeremy is much more likely to carry out a successful beating without getting injured himself.
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So after accuratly firing three bullet shots into Neville's head in the kitchen, she then spent the next few minutes brutally beating a dead man ?
Well it does seem that way yes. He was already "incapacitated" perhaps not yet dead? Perhaps the bullets in the head were the last act by the murderer? The point is that I am trying to explain the lack of injuries on either Sheila or Jeremy. This seems to me to be the most logical answer? We unfortunately are not in the priviledged position of knowing the times of death of each individual person and thus cannot know the order in which they were killed, or when the bullets were fired into them? This is the reason that I cannot be so bold as to give a scenario.
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No it doesn't. RWB had the same blood group and there are those who believe that it was his blood in the silencer put there by him. I personally do not believe that because there was plenty of Sheila's blood around. It is intriguing though that Jeremy, if it was him did not work out long before the murders that Sheila could not reach the trigger with the silencer on. All in all it doesnot have the distinctive marks of a well planned murder? On the contrary, to me at least it looks rather like a crime of passion. where the murderer lost all control and carried out the murders in some kind of rage? But I could be wrong? Unlike your scenario. ;)
He may not have known Sheila's arms were not long enough until the night. He may also not have known about back splatter.
With all windows being locked, Sheila the scapegoat & his police phone call Jeremy would have felt happy about his plan.
My scenario could be wrong.
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He was shot 5 times in the torso upstairs & on the stairs. But was found in the kitchen.
So he had the strenght to get to the kitchen where the pathologist said he put up a big fight for life.
The likelihood is Neville fought in the kitchen with 5 torso bullet wounds.
Surely with those injuries he could still have won a fight with Sheila. Or at least left marks on her. However a young, fit Jeremy is much more likely to carry out a successful beating without getting injured himself.
I very much doubt that even a qualified pathologist could know that? That is what he assumed as there were many injuries on Ralph. But we still have the problem as to why both Sheila and Jeremy had no corresponding marks on them.
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I don't think the pathologist was there was he? He offered an opinion!! However Vanezis was awfully confused because on the day of the autopsy, Sheila had 'bloodied palms' but after Jeremy because a suspect, he forgot all about that and her hands were clean ??? ??? ???
The pathologist does not need to be there.
He will know what a bullet from that gun, shot in the head will do to a human.
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He may not have known Sheila's arms were not long enough until the night. He may also not have known about back splatter.
With all windows being locked, Sheila the scapegoat & his police phone call Jeremy would have felt happy about his plan.
My scenario could be wrong.
You're a nice chap Adam. :)
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I very much doubt that even a qualified pathologist could know that? That is what he assumed as there were many injuries on Ralph. But we still have the problem as to why both Sheila and Jeremy had no corresponding marks on them.
As I said it is much more likely that a young, fit male would be 'mark free' after a fight with Neville.
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So after accuratly firing three bullet shots into Neville's head in the kitchen, she then spent the next few minutes brutally beating a dead man ?
Adam, you amaze me. You come onto this forum. PREACH at at. Argue with every point one of us makes. Give every indication that YOU are the quintessential expert......................and yet it seems you have zero knowledge of mental illness. Have you taken on board NOTHING we've said? It would seem you either haven't OR you're so arrogant that you've chosen to dismiss it as having no meaning. We who have some understanding of mental illness, either through personal experience or education, would be more that willing to share some of that knowledge with you. All you have to do is ask.
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The pathologist does not need to be there.
He will know what a bullet from that gun, shot in the head will do to a human.
Remember the problem? Neither Sheila or Jeremy had marks on them consistent with a big fight with their father. Keep that in mind. Logical questions: (1) Who fought with Ralph? (2) Did Ralph really put up a fight?
Remember if he did there would probably be defensive blows on his hands and arms. Similarly so on either Sheila or Jeremy. Personally may I suggest that he was at least helpless or incapacitated when those injuries were inflicted. And as the shots to his head were at a downward angle (if they were?) then the person who shot him must have been either taller than him, or he was sitting down. Another indication that he was in a helpless position? But as I said, I could be wrong?
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Adam, you amaze me. You come onto this forum. PREACH at at. Argue with every point one of us makes. Give every indication that YOU are the quintessential expert......................and yet it seems you have zero knowledge of mental illness. Have you taken on board NOTHING we've said? It would seem you either haven't OR you're so arrogant that you've chosen to dismiss it as having no meaning. We who have some understanding of mental illness, either through personal experience or education, would be more that willing to share some of that knowledge with you. All you have to do is ask.
So Sheila's condition meant it is very possible that she would brutally spend several minutes beating a dead man - her father. After firing three head shots in the kitchen, each shot hitting it's target.
All because his parents (according to Jeremy) had mentioned fostering that night.
The psychiatrists hired for the defence all said Sheila was not capable of going on such a murderous rampage.
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Remember the problem? Neither Sheila or Jeremy had marks on them consistent with a big fight with their father. Keep that in mind. Logical questions: (1) Who fought with Ralph? (2) Did Ralph really put up a fight?
Remember if he did there would probably be defensive blows on his hands and arms. Similarly so on either Sheila or Jeremy. Personally may I suggest that he was at least helpless or incapacitated when those injuries were inflicted. And as the shots to his head were at a downward angle (if they were?) then the person who shot him must have been either taller than him, or he was sitting down. Another indication that he was in a helpless position? But as I said, I could be wrong?
My scenario (which could be wrong) shows how Jeremy would have avoided injuries.
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So Sheila's condition meant it is very possible that she would brutally spend several minutes beating a dead man - her father. After firing three head shots in the kitchen, each shot hitting it's target.
All because his parents (according to Jeremy) had mentioned fostering that night.
The psychiatrists hired for the defence all said Sheila was not capable of going on such a murderous rampage.
Again, you show supreme lack of understanding. We are not talking about immediacy here. We are talking about a life time of emotional abuse which may have contributed to paranoid schizophrenia, and which because of it's slow onset, Dr F couldn't give a good prognosis for the future. The last time she was seen by a psychiatrist was a FULL 18 weeks prior to her death, during which time, her life was turned, emotionally, upside down and inside out, on top of all that, the meds which MAY have kept her safe, had been cut, without her being monitored, to a point where they may have been totally useless. It's all out there, Adam. READ IT.
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Again, you show supreme lack of understanding. We are not talking about immediacy here. We are talking about a life time of emotional abuse which may have contributed to paranoid schizophrenia, and which because of it's slow onset, Dr F couldn't give a good prognosis for the future. The last time she was seen by a psychiatrist was a FULL 18 weeks prior to her death, during which time, her life was turned, emotionally, upside down and inside out, on top of all that, the meds which MAY have kept her safe, had been cut, without her being monitored, to a point where they may have been totally useless. It's all out there, Adam. READ IT.
So in you're view, yes she was capable.
After shooting Neville 5 times, two of the remaining five bullets were fired into either June or the twins. This may have given Neville time to make those two alledged phone calls.
Sheila then came downstairs and fired the remaining three bullets into Nevilles head while Neville was making his alledged frantic call to Jeremy. Those shots instantly killed Neville. Then Sheila either started her beating on a dead Neville or loaded the gun & went back upstairs, returning later to beat Neville.
Now we are getting somewhere.
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So in you're view, yes she was capable.
After shooting Neville 5 times, two of the remaining five bullets were fired into either June or the twins. This may have given Neville time to make those two alledged phone calls.
Sheila then came downstairs and fired the remaining three bullets into Nevilles head while Neville was making his alledged frantic call to Jeremy. Those shots instantly killed Neville. Then Sheila either started her beating on a dead Neville or loaded the gun & went back upstairs, returning later to beat Neville.
Now we are getting somewhere.
Adam, any ONE of us, when pushed to our limits, would be capable. When we consider the emotional devastation Sheila had experienced during those last 18 weeks without the stable dose of meds which MAY have protected her -and incidentally, these days would probably have resulted in the NHS being sued for negligence- it looks far more likely that she, rather than Jeremy, was responsible, but please feel free to keep coming up with scenarios although you must realize that someone else may already have come up with the correct one. We'll never know, will we.
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Adam, any ONE of us, when pushed to our limits, would be capable. When we consider the emotional devastation Sheila had experienced during those last 18 weeks without the stable dose of meds which MAY have protected her -and incidentally, these days would probably have resulted in the NHS being sued for negligence- it looks far more likely that she, rather than Jeremy, was responsible, but please feel free to keep coming up with scenarios although you must realize that someone else may already have come up with the correct one. We'll never know, will we.
Has Jeremy ever come up with a scenario ?
He says he is 'innocent' & there is 'no question Sheila carried out the murders'.
Critics have always mentioned Nevilles beatings, alledged phone calls in the excitement ,Sheila's lack of gun experience & the found silencer.
Be good to know in detail from Jeremy how Sheila did it on the night. He's had 28 years to think of a scenario.
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Any possibility that some of his injuries could have been caused by falling down or being pushed down stairs? Just a thought.
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Any possibility that some of his injuries could have been caused by falling down or being pushed down stairs? Just a thought.
Hi jansus, that same thought has occured to me. Falling heavily when injured could cause dreadful injuries but Venazis reckoned it was caused by being severely beaten with the rifle butt so without proof we have to go with that.
I agree it is a possibility. :)
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so on the rifle butt there should have been definite evidence of that. Agree that if the person was incapacitated it would have been possible for SC to inflict those injuries.
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Has Jeremy ever come up with a scenario ?
He says he is 'innocent' & there is 'no question Sheila carried out the murders'.
Critics have always mentioned Nevilles beatings, alledged phone calls in the excitement ,Sheila's lack of gun experience & the found silencer.
Be good to know in detail from Jeremy how Sheila did it on the night. He's had 28 years to think of a scenario.
Why would Jeremy have a scenario to offer that's any more realistic than some offered here? Why do you add inverts when you refer to Jeremy's innocence? Have you not stated on many occasions that you have an open mind. I refrain from, although am tempted to use, inverts.
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So Sheila's condition meant it is very possible that she would brutally spend several minutes beating a dead man - her father. After firing three head shots in the kitchen, each shot hitting it's target.
All because his parents (according to Jeremy) had mentioned fostering that night.
The psychiatrists hired for the defence all said Sheila was not capable of going on such a murderous rampage.
,The expert opinions are just that , opinions . I bet all the friends and colleagues of the guy in the lost prophets also would have sworn he was not capable of the evil he inflicted. So having read her past medical history and her violence towards others - I am considering that statement to just be an opinion.
In most court cases you get "experts" giving differing opinions. Also I would imagine that since the time of the trial case studies and medical studies have moved opinions on.
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Why would Jeremy have a scenario to offer that's any more realistic than some offered here? Why do you add inverts when you refer to Jeremy's innocence? Have you not stated on many occasions that you have an open mind. I refrain from, although am tempted to use, inverts.
IF he is innocent then it would be just that , a scenario because he would not have been there to see what happened. If he is guilty then he would have planned "the perfect crime" so his scenario would have been spot on - to prove his innocence.
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so on the rifle butt there should have been definite evidence of that. Agree that if the person was incapacitated it would have been possible for SC to inflict those injuries.
Once shot in the head, yes. He would be dead.
After the torso shots, Neville was fit enough to get downstairs & make two phone calls according to Jeremy. So Neville would have put up a good fight against a much smaller opponent. But Jeremy would not have had much problem overpowering an injured Neville.
But as said by another poster, Sheila's psychotic conditon meant she was capable of spending several minutes beating a dead Neville.
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Why would Jeremy have a scenario to offer that's any more realistic than some offered here? Why do you add inverts when you refer to Jeremy's innocence? Have you not stated on many occasions that you have an open mind. I refrain from, although am tempted to use, inverts.
I read on his official site that Sheila put the silencer away & then went upstairs & shot herself again.
This is poor & Jeremy should fire the writer. Firstly it is agreeing the blood on the silencer is Sheila's.
Two cartridges were found next to Sheila upstairs & her arms were not long enough with the silencer on. The court pathologist also said it was impossible to walk up the stairs after the first shot.
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Why would Jeremy have a scenario to offer that's any more realistic than some offered here? Why do you add inverts when you refer to Jeremy's innocence? Have you not stated on many occasions that you have an open mind. I refrain from, although am tempted to use, inverts.
Jeremys official website has long articles on Mugford, the relatives, new evidence, Sheila etc. Thought he might be able to offer his opinion on how Sheila committed the crime.
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I agree that the above (in bold) is of course VERY unlikely!! However, as Jeremy (or the writer of his website) wasn't there either, there scenario's will be just as bad (or good) as the rest of them. Trying to explain events you weren't party to, is always going to lead to wild speculation.
Personally, I don't think the silencer was EVER on the rifle that night!!
The latest appeal is focusing on the silencer. However that is more to do with serial numbers. Andrew Hunter said it is Sheila's blood on the silencer five days ago.
It was testified in court that it was Sheila's blood. After the trial more tests were done which showed Sheila matching 13 of 17 criteria for it to be her blood.
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I agree that the above (in bold) is of course VERY unlikely!! However, as Jeremy (or the writer of his website) wasn't there either, there scenario's will be just as bad (or good) as the rest of them. Trying to explain events you weren't party to, is always going to lead to wild speculation.
Personally, I don't think the silencer was EVER on the rifle that night!!
My scenario at least matched the crime scene & bullet allocation.
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Has Jeremy ever come up with a scenario ?
He says he is 'innocent' & there is 'no question Sheila carried out the murders'.
Critics have always mentioned Nevilles beatings, alledged phone calls in the excitement ,Sheila's lack of gun experience & the found silencer.
Be good to know in detail from Jeremy how Sheila did it on the night. He's had 28 years to think of a scenario.
Perhaps he was relying on the plain facts and the common sense of the jury to free him. But obviously he didn't count on a lying Julie Mugford and a few silly scenarios dreamed up by the relatives? Just remember that it was not Jeremy who has said all those things about him. But others, all who have something to gain if he is behind bars.
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My scenario at least matched the crime scene & bullet allocation.
How can it if we do not have the exact times of death of each individual?
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Jeremys official website has long articles on Mugford, the relatives, new evidence, Sheila etc. Thought he might be able to offer his opinion on how Sheila committed the crime.
You see that is where some go wrong. They are so taken up with "how" Sheila committed the crime. Yet miss out the fact that she may indeed have done so. Just because they cannot see it themselves does not mean that she didn't do it. Remember Taff Jones a very experienced police officer was thoroughly convinced that it was Sheila who did it right up to his death. He was looking at the crime scene as it was. It was not some of the other officers who thought she did it as Miller said in the documentary. But the relatives who kept pestering him so much that he threatened to have them ejected from the police station. He was there and no one present contradicted him.
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How can it if we do not have the exact times of death of each individual?
The crime scene as it was found upon entry.
If Jeremy committed the murders it was done between 11am - 3am. I suspect around 2am when everyone should be fast asleep. From first bullet to last would have been quick. Maybe less than 10 minutes.
If Sheila committed the crime it could be anytime between 3.26am to when the police forced entry. I suspect the murders were again carried out in quick succession. However she could delay her suicide to any time. But not sure how her blood got on the silencer.
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Perhaps he was relying on the plain facts and the common sense of the jury to free him. But obviously he didn't count on a lying Julie Mugford and a few silly scenarios dreamed up by the relatives? Just remember that it was not Jeremy who has said all those things about him. But others, all who have something to gain if he is behind bars.
Jeremy must be the unluckiest man on earth.
Mugford accused him of murder after he apparently jilted her. His own relatives turned on him & the EP suddenly changed their mind & charged him with murder. All this just after his family had died.
Then the jury could not use common sense & acquit him.
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You see that is where some go wrong. They are so taken up with "how" Sheila committed the crime. Yet miss out the fact that she may indeed have done so. Just because they cannot see it themselves does not mean that she didn't do it. Remember Taff Jones a very experienced police officer was thoroughly convinced that it was Sheila who did it right up to his death. He was looking at the crime scene as it was. It was not some of the other officers who thought she did it as Miller said in the documentary. But the relatives who kept pestering him so much that he threatened to have them ejected from the police station. He was there and no one present contradicted him.
Some of my posts today have been trying to work out how Sheila did it. I have from day one invited Sheila scenarios.
At present it seems the most likely explanation was Neville got shot three times in the head in the kitchen. Then Sheila spent the next few minutes giving a dead Neville two black eyes, damaged teeth, neck, jaw & larynx.
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The crime scene as it was found upon entry.
If Jeremy committed the murders it was done between 11am - 3am. I suspect around 2am when everyone should be fast asleep. From first bullet to last would have been quick. Maybe less than 10 minutes.
If Sheila committed the crime it could be anytime between 3.26am to when the police forced entry. I suspect the murders were again carried out in quick succession. However she could delay her suicide to any time. But not sure how her blood got on the silencer.
And I am not sure how Sheila´s body could look so "fresh" when the photographs were taken in midmorning - June and Nevill´s not so much (!) - if we go by the first option you put up.
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Jeremy must be the unluckiest man on earth.
Mugford accused him of murder after he apparently jilted her. His own relatives turned on him & the EP suddenly changed their mind & charged him with murder. All this just after his family had died.
Then the jury could not use common sense & acquit him.
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Unlucky if innocent.
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I am not sure about the various reports on the silencer tbh -From what I have read if there was blood on it it was a mixture of two peoples blood. Other reports said only a protein was identified which could have belonged to an animal. It definitely could have been contaminated because of the way it got to the police and I am sure if it was today it would not even been accepted as evidence. Also there now appears to be evidence that there was more than one silencer . Also the ballistic reports could not say the bulletts had been fired through a silencer. I would say IMO that if SC did it then she would have been in the throws of a catastrophic episode ( perhaps hearing voices etc) and would really been totally unaware of what she was actually doing - so I can not see that she would have used the silencer at all. If JB did it I can not see why he would have left that evidence and why the police did not find it in their search originally. IMO :)
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Adam My concern is how did the silencer get into the gun cupboard and why were the relatives rooting through cupboards after the murders it was not their house and they found the silencer why did EP not find this crucial evidence and it was not handed over to EP immediately. This should not have been removed from the crime scene by an unauthorised person. Common sense tells you that had Sheila used the silencer she would not have put it back in the cupboard and if Jeremy had used it he would have cleaned it before putting it away or at least take it with him and get rid of it. The police did remove silencers from the scene after the murders. This stray one turned up days after ;) ;) ;)
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Colin Caffell said that the effects of anti-psychotic drug haloperidol had made her uncoordinated and clumsy. Loading and reloading the 10 bullet-magazine and still managing to hit the target 25 times out of 26 shots was not a feat they could realistically attribute to her, even in the grip of a presumed psychotic frenzy.
Adam, you amaze me. You come onto this forum. PREACH at at. Argue with every point one of us makes. Give every indication that YOU are the quintessential expert......................and yet it seems you have zero knowledge of mental illness. Have you taken on board NOTHING we've said? It would seem you either haven't OR you're so arrogant that you've chosen to dismiss it as having no meaning. We who have some understanding of mental illness, either through personal experience or education, would be more that willing to share some of that knowledge with you. All you have to do is ask.
[/quote]
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Adam two members of the Jury were not convinced with Julie or the silencer evidence as they said Not Guilty.
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Colin Caffell said that the effects of anti-psychotic drug haloperidol had made her uncoordinated and clumsy. Loading and reloading the 10 bullet-magazine and still managing to hit the target 25 times out of 26 shots was not a feat they could realistically attribute to her, even in the grip of a presumed psychotic frenzy.
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Adam two members of the Jury were not convinced with Julie or the silencer evidence as they said Not Guilty.
Yes and further appeals have failed.
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Adam My concern is how did the silencer get into the gun cupboard and why were the relatives rooting through cupboards after the murders it was not their house and they found the silencer why did EP not find this crucial evidence and it was not handed over to EP immediately. This should not have been removed from the crime scene by an unauthorised person. Common sense tells you that had Sheila used the silencer she would not have put it back in the cupboard and if Jeremy had used it he would have cleaned it before putting it away or at least take it with him and get rid of it. The police did remove silencers from the scene after the murders. This stray one turned up days after ;) ;) ;)
The relatives were suspicious. So they did their own mini investigation.
The police did a quick check on a murder/suicide case. The silencer was at the back of the gun cupboard in a box.
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Adam,
What are you hoping to achieve on here? It looks like some kind of patrician inspired assistance to the police / authorities?
I'm not sure that constantly regurgitating aspects of the original prosecution case will achieve what you seek? The same can be said for anti-Jeremy anecdotes.
Why are you trying to curry favour with bent coppers and less than honest relatives?
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I am not sure about the various reports on the silencer tbh -From what I have read if there was blood on it it was a mixture of two peoples blood. Other reports said only a protein was identified which could have belonged to an animal. It definitely could have been contaminated because of the way it got to the police and I am sure if it was today it would not even been accepted as evidence. Also there now appears to be evidence that there was more than one silencer . Also the ballistic reports could not say the bulletts had been fired through a silencer. I would say IMO that if SC did it then she would have been in the throws of a catastrophic episode ( perhaps hearing voices etc) and would really been totally unaware of what she was actually doing - so I can not see that she would have used the silencer at all. If JB did it I can not see why he would have left that evidence and why the police did not find it in their search originally. IMO :)
Evidence that there was more than one silencer ? Well there would have been more than one in the house. They were probably all tested after police suspected Jeremy. Only one had Sheila's blood on.
We only have Jeremys word that the rifle did not have a silencer on when he left the house at 10pm.
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Colin Caffell said that the effects of anti-psychotic drug haloperidol had made her uncoordinated and clumsy. Loading and reloading the 10 bullet-magazine and still managing to hit the target 25 times out of 26 shots was not a feat they could realistically attribute to her, even in the grip of a presumed psychotic frenzy.
Yes, that is probably true. However, as you know, Sheila´s dose of Haloperidol had been halved the last time she got it + she had gotten the medication weeks before the murders and was due another dose. So there would hardly been any Haldol left in her system - which is a dangerous state, very, very dangerous.
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Yes, that is probably true. However, as you know, Sheila´s dose of Haloperidol had been halved the last time she got it + she had gotten the medication weeks before the murders and was due another dose. So there would hardly been any Haldol left in her system - which is a dangerous state, very, very dangerous.
Excellent point, Alias. One that many seem to forget about.
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Yes, that is probably true. However, as you know, Sheila´s dose of Haloperidol had been halved the last time she got it + she had gotten the medication weeks before the murders and was due another dose. So there would hardly been any Haldol left in her system - which is a dangerous state, very, very dangerous.
Was it Sheila who requested it was halved ?
Even if it was halved it should still have some effect.
It seems to be agreed that Sheila had the psychotic episode after a conversation about fostering. We only have Jeremy's word this conversation took place.
Jeremy also said Sheila was non responsive & quiet. However suddenly went into a psychotic rage several hours later.
Maybe Sheila might have thought fostering was a good idea ?
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Was it Sheila who requested it was halved ?
Even if it was halved it should still have some effect.
It seems to be agreed that Sheila had the psychotic episode after a conversation about fostering. We only have Jeremy's word this conversation took place.
Jeremy also said Sheila was non responsive & quiet. However suddenly went into a psychotic rage several hours later. Maybe Sheila might have thought fostering was a good idea.
I think that maybe Sheila requested it halved - she didn´t like her medication: how it made her feel, as so many other mentally ill people: they hate their medication, but the alternative is worse. And dangerous in many cases. It was an irresponsible move of the doctor who halved it. Google it, you will see many examples of just how dangerous that is! (I have made a whole thread about this in the past, I think it was back when my username was abs.)
Of course it would not have an effect if it was halved, she got her shot a long time ago and was due the next! Minimal if any.
We don´t know if she had an episode after a conversation about fostering - possibly though. It could have been something else. In any case, Sheila was a very ill person who saw her children and her mother as very dangerous and threatening to herself.
According to everyone who knew Sheila, her moods were erratic and FLUCTUATING - which is typical of schizophrenics, so your point is moot. I don´t even understand that so many nons keep repeating this! Google it....
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Was it Sheila who requested it was halved ?
Even if it was halved it should still have some effect.
It seems to be agreed that Sheila had the psychotic episode after a conversation about fostering. We only have Jeremy's word this conversation took place.
Jeremy also said Sheila was non responsive & quiet. However suddenly went into a psychotic rage several hours later.
Maybe Sheila might have thought fostering was a good idea ?
NO,
Sheila requested a reduction. Permission was sought and granted from Dr F who reduced it by a quarter. For some reason best known to herself, the locum responsible took it upon herself to reduce it by a half, leaving her medically unsupported and in a dangerous place.
Suggest you think long and hard about the circumstances before suggesting that she'd think it a good idea to have her children fostered. She may not have been a world class mother nut she undoubtedly loved her children. She's lost the chance of an ongoing relationship with her biological mother. She's lost the chance of reconciliation with her ex husband. She may have seen her boys as being all she had left.
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Colin Caffell said that the effects of anti-psychotic drug haloperidol had made her uncoordinated and clumsy. Loading and reloading the 10 bullet-magazine and still managing to hit the target 25 times out of 26 shots was not a feat they could realistically attribute to her, even in the grip of a presumed psychotic frenzy.
Adam, you amaze me. You come onto this forum. PREACH at at. Argue with every point one of us makes. Give every indication that YOU are the quintessential expert......................and yet it seems you have zero knowledge of mental illness. Have you taken on board NOTHING we've said? It would seem you either haven't OR you're so arrogant that you've chosen to dismiss it as having no meaning. We who have some understanding of mental illness, either through personal experience or education, would be more that willing to share some of that knowledge with you. All you have to do is ask.
Yet Colin was the one who remarked, "She finally did it"
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Was it Sheila who requested it was halved ?
Even if it was halved it should still have some effect.
It seems to be agreed that Sheila had the psychotic episode after a conversation about fostering. We only have Jeremy's word this conversation took place.
Jeremy also said Sheila was non responsive & quiet. However suddenly went into a psychotic rage several hours later.
It was a locum GP who administered the halved dosage. Wrong for them to have done so, without knowing her. Whether they would have done that without Sheila insisting she felt 'better/worse' is debatable.
Sheila had problems in the days building up to that evening, as many have pointed out to you. The fostering was probably the last straw for Sheila.
Maybe Sheila might have thought fostering was a good idea ?
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NO,
Sheila requested a reduction. Permission was sought and granted from Dr F who reduced it by a quarter. For some reason best known to herself, the locum responsible took it upon herself to reduce it by a half.
Suggest you think long and hard about the circumstances before suggesting that she'd think it a good idea to have her children fostered. She may not have been a world class mother nut she undoubtedly loved her children. She's lost the chance of an ongoing relationship with her biological mother. She's lost the chance of reconciliation with her ex husband. She may have seen her boys as being all she had left.
The twins had been in day foster care at some family. As far as I know, it worked well for all, also Sheila. POSSIBLY she thought it was a good idea, we just don´t know, but if it had worked well in the past, why not?
Her "incident" (if it was Sheila who did this) could have been triggered by something else than the talk about foster care. Jeremy could have been guessing. We are all guessing here.
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I think that maybe Sheila requested it halved - she didn´t like her medication: how it made her feel, as so many other mentally ill people: they hate their medication, but the alternative is worse. And dangerous in many cases. It was an irresponsible move of the doctor who halved it. Google it, you will see many examples of just how dangerous that is! (I have made a whole thread about this in the past, I think it was back when my username was abs.)
Of course it would not have an effect if it was halved, she got her shot a long time ago and was due the next! Minimal if any.
We don´t know if she had an episode after a conversation about fostering - possibly though. It could have been something else. In any case, Sheila was a very ill person who saw her children and her mother as very dangerous and threatening to herself.
According to everyone who knew Sheila, her moods were erratic and FLUCTUATING - which is typical of schizophrenics, so your point is moot. I don´t even understand that so many nons keep repeating this! Google it....
My friend's wife has to make sure her son takes his medication. If she doesn't he won't take it. I wonder if Sheila was the same?
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The twins had been in day foster care at some family. As far as I know, it worked well for all, also Sheila. POSSIBLY she thought it was a good idea, we just don´t know, but if it had worked well in the past, why not?
Her "incident" (if it was Sheila who did this) could have been triggered by something else than the talk about foster care. Jeremy could have been guessing. We are all guessing here.
Indeed we are, Alias, but where fostering had previously worked well, Sheila may not have felt that everything had been taken away from her.
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I think that maybe Sheila requested it halved - she didn´t like her medication: how it made her feel, as so many other mentally ill people: they hate their medication, but the alternative is worse. And dangerous in many cases. It was an irresponsible move of the doctor who halved it. Google it, you will see many examples of just how dangerous that is! (I have made a whole thread about this in the past, I think it was back when my username was abs.)
Of course it would not have an effect if it was halved, she got her shot a long time ago and was due the next! Minimal if any.
We don´t know if she had an episode after a conversation about fostering - possibly though. It could have been something else. In any case, Sheila was a very ill person who saw her children and her mother as very dangerous and threatening to herself.
According to everyone who knew Sheila, her moods were erratic and FLUCTUATING - which is typical of schizophrenics, so your point is moot. I don´t even understand that so many nons keep repeating this! Google it....
Her medication and state of mind is a big issue.
Her ex husband Colin Caffell & other relatives said it made her clumsy and un cordinated. Barely able to put sugar in tea. I assume Colin had seen her recently to hand over the children. However other people say the medication was too weak to prevent the psychotic episode. Psychiatrists hired by the defence all said Sheila was not capable of such a murderous ramage. They would have all been told about her medication.
Jeremy may have believed that no one would swallow Sheila going crazy for no reason. So invented the fostering conversation as a trigger.
Her parents & ex husband certainly were not expecting it.
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My friend's wife has to make sure her son takes his medication. If she doesn't he won't take it. I wonder if Sheila was the same?
Dr F lists this as being one of the reasons Sheila was a difficult patient to treat.
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My friend's wife has to make sure her son takes his medication. If she doesn't he won't take it. I wonder if Sheila was the same?
She was - Her doctor said as much. She didn´t keep their appointmentsm she took her medication irregularly. It is very typical actually. I think they gave her shots because of that - but then a doctor suddenly decided to halve the shot...
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Her medication and state of mind is a big issue.
Her ex husband Colin Caffell & other relatives said it made her clumsy and un cordinated. Barely able to put sugar in tea. I assume Colin had seen her recently to hand over the children. However other people say the medication was too weak to prevent the psychotic episode. Psychiatrists hired by the defence all said Sheila was not capable of such a murderous ramage. They would have all been told about her medication.
Jeremy may have believed that no one would swallow Sheila going crazy for no reason. So invented the fostering conversation as a trigger.
Her parents & ex husband certainly were not expecting it.
Upon learning about the killings, the first thing Colin said was: "So she finally did it..." HE was expecting it.
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My friend's wife has to make sure her son takes his medication. If she doesn't he won't take it. I wonder if Sheila was the same?
Think it is one of the difficulties of schizophrenia that sufferers tend not to take their medication and this is what causes them and others so much trouble.
Seems Sheila wasn't taking her meds as she had cut back drastically on her Haloperidol and the only other meds in her system was traces of cannabis which she had smoked a few days before.
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Indeed we are, Alias, but where fostering had previously worked well, Sheila may not have felt that everything had been taken away from her.
Good point - perhaps she felt trapped at WHF and, once again, the 'parents' were taking over. (Speculation on my part ;))
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She was - Her doctor said as much. She didn´t keep their appointmentsm she took her medication irregularly. It is very typical actually. I think they gave her shots because of that - but then a doctor suddenly decided to halve the shot...
A bit like the psychopaths the doctors let out of prison telling the authorities that they are no longer any danger to the public. Psychiatrists are not the best judges in the world when it comes to summing up people's characters.
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Adam,
What are you hoping to achieve on here? It looks like some kind of patrician inspired assistance to the police / authorities?
I'm not sure that constantly regurgitating aspects of the original prosecution case will achieve what you seek? The same can be said for anti-Jeremy anecdotes.
Why are you trying to curry favour with bent coppers and less than honest relatives?
Good questions here.
Adam?
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Think it is one of the difficulties of schizophrenia that sufferers tend not to take their medication and this is what causes them and others so much trouble.
Seems Sheila wasn't taking her meds as she had cut back drastically on her Haloperidol and the only other meds in her system was traces of cannabis which she had smoked a few days before.
I think as well if Adam does some research on this illness it is rare that someone with Schizophrenia If they do kill , kill strangers. It is more likely family or people who care for them. And yes quite often it is difficult for them to take medication as they quite often do not acknowledge their illness. Also to say she was not capable of the attack is too much of a generalisation. Look at other recorded cases where the families did not think it would happen to them either. Very sad .
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A bit like the psychopaths the doctors let out of prison telling the authorities that they are no longer any danger to the public. Psychiatrists are not the best judges in the world when it comes to summing up people's characters.
That´s right, we see it time and time again!
For me huge alarms go off when I read what Sheila said about her little boys and about her mother. Six-year-olds raping and killing her - come on!
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Hello Roch
I have asked Adam these questions time and time again. No reply. I have reassured him Jeremy Bamber is serving life in prison so why is Adam doing his utmost to prove Jeremy Guilty not making sense to me at all. ???
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Upon learning about the killings, the first thing Colin said was: "So she finally did it..." HE was expecting it.
Why did he let Sheila take the children ?
I have heard that that quote was taken out of context. Colin had heard there had been some trouble at WHF but did not know the details.
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Why did he let Sheila take the children ?
I have heard that that quote was taken out of context. Colin had heard there had been some trouble at WHF but did not know the details.
Good question! He had a new girlfriend, needed alone-time with her? He thought they would be safe because June and Nevill were there.
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Good point - perhaps she felt trapped at WHF and, once again, the 'parents' were taking over. (Speculation on my part ;))
In a written report of an interview with her Dr F says she told him she hated going to the farm.
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Hello Roch
I have asked Adam these questions time and time again. No reply. I have reassured him Jeremy Bamber is serving life in prison so why is Adam doing his utmost to prove Jeremy Guilty not making sense to me at all. ???
I like dicussing a case I am interested in.
I do not need to explain myself.
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Adam yes two Appeals have failed but you never know what the future holds ;D
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I think as well if Adam does some research on this illness it is rare that someone with Schizophrenia If they do kill , kill strangers. It is more likely family or people who care for them. And yes quite often it is difficult for them to take medication as they quite often do not acknowledge their illness. Also to say she was not capable of the attack is too much of a generalisation. Look at other recorded cases where the families did not think it would happen to them either. Very sad .
Has there ever been a case of mother, father, children murdered & then suicide ?
Sheila was seen earlier in the day. Walking with her children. She seemed happy. Oh I forgot, Jeremy said the parents had mentioned fostering.
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Why did he let Sheila take the children ?
I have heard that that quote was taken out of context. Colin had heard there had been some trouble at WHF but did not know the details.
They looked after the children between them with Colin at one time having the lions' share. It was he who drove them to the farm and although he didn't like them to be subjected for long to June's influence, in this instance, he had no choice as he had a new life away from Sheila.
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Why did he let Sheila take the children ?
I have heard that that quote was taken out of context. Colin had heard there had been some trouble at WHF but did not know the details.
He took the twins to WHF because he was working away for a few days, so couldn't have looked after them himself, and he felt they would all be better cared for there. Sheila couldn't cope on her own. That must have been the only option for him as the twins didn't necessarily like being there as June used to make them pray etc. On his return, he was meant to be taking them on holiday to Sweden.
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Good question! He had a new girlfriend, needed alone-time with her? He thought they would be safe because June and Nevill were there.
The defence did not use any psychiatrists in court to testify that Sheila was capable of such a murderous rampage. They could not find any !
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Has there ever been a case of mother, father, children murdered & then suicide ?
Sheila was seen earlier in the day. Walking with her children. She seemed happy. Oh I forgot, Jeremy said the parents had mentioned fostering.
Adam, I find what I'm experiencing as your condescending sarcasm to be singularly unappealing.
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Has there ever been a case of mother, father, children murdered & then suicide ?
Sheila was seen earlier in the day. Walking with her children. She seemed happy. Oh I forgot, Jeremy said the parents had mentioned fostering.
Do you not read newspapers?
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Just seems like too many things Jeremy claims that cannot be verified.
Jeremy left a fully loaded gun by the sofa. Can't be proved.
The gun did not have a silencer on. Can't be proved.
They spoke about fostering at dinner. Can't be proved.
He received a phone call from Neville. Can't be proved.
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The defence did not use any psychiatrists in court to testify that Sheila was capable of such a murderous rampage. They could not find any !
That sounds odd! I don´t think Jeremy had good counsel!
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Do you not read newspapers?
I do but have never seen a crime like this.
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That sounds odd! I don´t think Jeremy had good counsel!
He had the best available. Expensive as well, but he would have got some or all of the money back from the newspaper deal.
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Can I be a pain in the butt and inform that Nevill´s name is spelled without an "e" in the end. :)
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The defence did not use any psychiatrists in court to testify that Sheila was capable of such a murderous rampage. They could not find any !
The facts about the halving of her meds was played down big time. I may be wrong but it could be that it was mentioned for the first time on this forum. NOR was it ever mentioned that she's last been interviewed 18 weeks prior to her death during which time ALL her life circumstances had changed almost out of recognition. As I said before, these days it would certainly have given rise to an enquiry/suing the NHS.
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Alias yes my dear you can be a pain in the butt and you may have noticed I now spell Nevill without and e and have stopped the Ralph see I do as you tell me ;D ;D ;D
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The facts about the halving of her meds was played down big time. I may be wrong but it could be that it was mentioned for the first time on this forum. NOR was it ever mentioned that she's last been interviewed 18 weeks prior to her death during which time ALL her life circumstances had changed almost out of recognition. As I said before, these days it would certainly have given rise to an enquiry/suing the NHS.
It was up to the defence & Jeremy to play it up.
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Adam what newspaper deal he did not get one.
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Alias yes my dear you can be a pain in the butt and you may have noticed I now spell Nevill without and e and have stopped the Ralph see I do as you tell me ;D ;D ;D
Hahaha, I have been so confused about the way his name is spelled, because it is like the wind blows. I myself am guilty as well. I saw the letter June wrote to her family, she wrote, Nevill, then I went to the official Bamber site, there it is Nevill as well.
I trust that June knew how to spell her husband´s name, and Jeremy his father´s. :)
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It was up to the defence & Jeremy to play it up.
Can you tell me HOW you think they could have done so? Jeremy wouldn't have understood Haloperidol from Halitosis and with an eminent psychiatrist not letting on to what had happened.....................do you get my drift? They needed to KNOW about the indiscrepancy before it could be challenged.
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Jeremy had been discussing newspaper figures over a period of time.
The best newspaper deal offer was £40,000. Jeremy was disappointed with this amount considering how much Julie had been offerred if he was convicted.
I do not know which paper but suspect Jeremy engaged with all the tabloids.
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Adam so Julie did make a deal with newspaper before Jeremy was convicted.
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Can you tell me HOW you think they could have done so? Jeremy wouldn't have understood Haloperidol from Halitosis and with an eminent psychiatrist not letting on to what had happened.....................do you get my drift? They needed to KNOW about the indiscrepancy before it could be challenged.
Has this been brought up at appeals ?
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Adam so Julie did make a deal with newspaper before Jeremy was convicted.
Probably a verbal agreement. Standard practice.
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Alias very observant of you and in future it will be Nevill from me ;D I thought Ralph suited him better but I will go with the majority ;D
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Adam do you not watch the news. Mother/Father murdering children then committing suicide is happening all the time :( usually couples who have split up. Google Theresa Riggi a beautiful opera singer with no record of mental illness murdered her three children stabbed each one at least 8 times in Edinburgh then tried to take her own life but her life was saved and she is serving 13 years in a hospital for people who have mental problems she too was saving her children from evil at least another 12 cases on the same site. Read them then you may understand this case a little better.
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took me two minutes to find this
Andre Letellier, 30, whom neighbours said had a history of schizophrenia and roamed the neighbourhood singing and talking to himself, killed his parents and hanged himself.
but I have got a few more important things to do than find more. google is a wonderful thing.
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took me two minutes to find this
Andre Letellier, 30, whom neighbours said had a history of schizophrenia and roamed the neighbourhood singing and talking to himself, killed his parents and hanged himself.
but I have got a few more important things to do than find more. google is a wonderful thing.
I have been googling too and right away found numerous examples of parenticide and filicide. I was about to post links, but then paused. Adam can do this himself if he cares to!
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I have been googling too and right away found numerous examples of parenticide and filicide. I was about to post links, but then paused. Adam can do this himself if he cares to!
Adam seems to have made many requests for us to do donkey work on his behalf :D It maybe that he's accustomed to having people run around after him :D
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Adam seems to have made many requests for us to do donkey work on his behalf :D It maybe that he's accustomed to having people run around after him :D
His mum? :P
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Adam seems to have made many requests for us to do donkey work on his behalf :D It maybe that he's accustomed to having people run around after him :D
I'm sure he knows all this stuff anyway. He likes to wind us all up, I reckon.
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I'm sure he knows all this stuff anyway. He likes to wind us all up, I reckon.
I guess. Like steve_uk a little bit.
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I guess. Like steve_uk a little bit.
Maybe his nephew or something? :)
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Maybe his nephew or something? :)
QUITE possibly! They both like to make things up and present them as fact! Oh, and reading books and quoting them.
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QUITE possibly! They both like to make things up and present them as fact! Oh, and reading books and quoting them.
Can you not accuse me of making things up please.
Everything I have posted is from what I have read from reliable sources, books, witness statements, interview transcripts, forums, articles, youtube, court appeal summaries, even Jeremys own official site.
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Adam do you not watch the news. Mother/Father murdering children then committing suicide is happening all the time :( usually couples who have split up. Google Theresa Riggi a beautiful opera singer with no record of mental illness murdered her three children stabbed each one at least 8 times in Edinburgh then tried to take her own life but her life was saved and she is serving 13 years in a hospital for people who have mental problems she too was saving her children from evil at least another 12 cases on the same site. Read them then you may understand this case a little better.
Mothers & fathers murdering their children all the time. I will be careful at the family Christmas do.
Sheila also murdered her parents. With a gun.
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Can you not accuse me of making things up please.
Everything I have posted is from what I have read from reliable sources, books, witness statements, interview transcripts, forums, articles, youtube, court appeal summaries, even Jeremys own official site.
Not everything you say is substantiated. Sorry if I offended you.
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Mothers & fathers murdering their children all the time. I will be careful at the family Christmas do.
Sheila also murdered her parents. With a gun.
Please google - there are many, many examples of grown children killing their parents. Why should we be running around the internet to accommodate your request for examples of this? It won´t prove a thing one way or the other. Just a waste of time. I don´t get it?
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Adam what about Thersa Riggi stabbed her three children 8 times each. Gun, knife poison what difference it is what is going on in the mind that is the problem not the choice of weapon. Stop splitting hairs.
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His mum? :P
Wrong. Someone disagreed with me. I asked the person to enlighten me on a discussion forum. I was told to research it myself.
I never withold information I know on this caseif it is relevant to the discussion. Such as yesterday about Jeremy hating his mother & the recent Andrew Hunter statememt.
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Mothers & fathers murdering their children all the time. I will be careful at the family Christmas do.
Sheila also murdered her parents. With a gun.
That's because she was at a farm with guns all over the place. No guns, no one killed.
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Please google - there are many, many examples of grown children killing their parents. Why should we be running around the internet to accommodate your request for examples of this? It won´t prove a thing one way or the other. Just a waste of time. I don´t get it?
Alright dear, calm down. I will google.
I only asked a question on a discussion forum.
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Not everything you say is substantiated. Sorry if I offended you.
Ok. We have different views but both know about the case.
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Adam stop being so sensitive you are worse than me ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Alright dear, calm down. I will google.
I only asked a question on a discussion forum.
Now, who calls someone 'dear', unless you're a grandmother?!! ::)
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Now, who calls someone 'dear', unless you're a grandmother?!! ::)
Just because I refuse to do his googling for him!
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Adam stop being so sensitive you are worse than me ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You asked me a question about Jeremy's newspaper deal.
I answered it.
That is what people do on forums. Share information.
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Now, who calls someone 'dear', unless you're a grandmother?!! ::)
Michael Winner :D
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Michael Winner :D
Hey April where did you get those pearls from? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam I was not referring to that your answer about the newspaper deal was fair and square I was talking about your post to Alias. ;D
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Alias I could yodel for him bet he would like that ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You asked me a question about Jeremy's newspaper deal.
I answered it.
That is what people do on forums. Share information.
It's a shame you don't listen, then!
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Let us say I found and posted some links to cases of grown children murdering their parents - then what, Adam? Would it have anything to do with the murders at WHF? Would you be convinced that Sheila killed har family, then herself? I think not! Why should we waste time on this? If you are so interested in other cases, you can easily google them yourself. Always happy to help! ;D
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Hey April where did you get those pearls from? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Patti, they're very lovely, aren't they? I have numerous strands in every colour as long as they're creamy white. My favs are 13mm baroques.
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Patti, they're very lovely, aren't they? I have numerous strands in every colour as long as they're creamy white. My favs are 13mm baroques.
April :) I know nothing about pearls other that they come from the sea and they are beautiful when wearing a black dress. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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April :) I know nothing about pearls other that they come from the sea and they are beautiful when wearing a black dress. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
And every other colour too Patti....................Sorry mods ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam's thread has taken over the forum. Good work Adam.
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And every other colour too Patti....................Sorry mods ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Schhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
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Adam's thread has taken over the forum. Good work Adam.
We did try to highlight your questions earlier, but he ignored them.... ;)
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Now, who calls someone 'dear', unless you're a grandmother?!! ::)
Michael Winner.
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Adam's thread has taken over the forum. Good work Adam.
I think that is OK. Can´t see anything wrong with that. Some threads attract more attention than others, it has always been like that.
Apparently Adam is making some points that make people react - isn´t it just good with some life on the forum? Or is it just me?! :-[
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How would you all feel if I turned the tables and said it was June who'd " kicked off " ? As opposed to it having been Sheila,as whatever had happened to June to have received a black eye previously,,she was also under par,mentally and had the burden of worry over Sheila,the twins and also her husband who was beginning to feel ill with worry too. It's not impossible for June to have snapped when things got more heated,,and I think it was June.or even Neville who fired that first shot to Sheilas' neck.
It was definitely between the three adults.
Not forgetting the fact that because June could never bear children,that alone from her previous years would have left its mark,plus her own past treatment at the clinic/hospital.
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I think that is OK. Can´t see anything wrong with that. Some threads attract more attention than others, it has always been like that.
Apparently Adam is making some points that make people react - isn´t it just good with some life on the forum? Or is it just me?! :-[
I think the same Alias, it adds to debate and when you have a conflicting opinion, that is just what it is and nothing more....It is up to the reader whether they take part or not....I think its a good thing, so long as the post is debated and not the person.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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How would you all feel if I turned the tables and said it was June who'd " kicked off " ? As opposed to it having been Sheila,as whatever had happened to June to have received a black eye previously,,she was also under par,mentally and had the burden of worry over Sheila,the twins and also her husband who was beginning to feel ill with worry too. It's not impossible for June to have snapped when things got more heated,,and I think it was June.or even Neville who fired that first shot to Sheilas' neck.
It was definitely between the three adults.
Not forgetting the fact that because June could never bear children,that alone from her previous years would have left its mark,plus her own past treatment at the clinic/hospital.
I'd be prepared to look at the possibility, Lookout, but would we ever know for conclusively?
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How would you all feel if I turned the tables and said it was June who'd " kicked off " ? As opposed to it having been Sheila,as whatever had happened to June to have received a black eye previously,,she was also under par,mentally and had the burden of worry over Sheila,the twins and also her husband who was beginning to feel ill with worry too. It's not impossible for June to have snapped when things got more heated,,and I think it was June.or even Neville who fired that first shot to Sheilas' neck.
It was definitely between the three adults.
Not forgetting the fact that because June could never bear children,that alone from her previous years would have left its mark,plus her own past treatment at the clinic/hospital.
I have had this thought too after seeing that letter she wrote to Nevill, Sheila and Jeremy - the letter that sounded like a suicide note. She must have been quite depressed when she wrote that, contemplating her own death, writing "if I have to leave you".
But I can´t get very far with that thought, because all the circumstances become too complicated - like what you mention about someone else shot Sheila first - and then what? Sheila herself shot a second time? It gets awfully complicated, and what about the telephone calls?
June was also shot in bed first, that adds to the complications.
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Not one footprint was found belonging to those present or anyone else for that matter,,given the volume of blood that was around.
I also remember reading,ages ago,about how the twins were on the landing. Who would have known that ? I can't even remember where I read it as I'd just joined. With all the racket going on,,it wouldn't have surprised me that the children woke up and got up to see what was going on.It's what children do,,and they hadn't been drugged.
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I think the same Alias, it adds to debate and when you have a conflicting opinion, that is just what it is and nothing more....It is up to the reader whether they take part or not....I think its a good thing, so long as the post is debated and not the person.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Patti, I think it's great to have a conflicting opinion, PROVIDING it is an opinion and not just words pulled from somewhere. We, it seems, are prepared to look at things from all angles, which is much more helpful than someone who sticks rigidly to an opinion which is fundamentally someone elses.
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I have had this thought too after seeing that letter she wrote to Nevill, Sheila and Jeremy - the letter that sounded like a suicide note. She must have been quite depressed when she wrote that, contemplating her own death, writing "if I have to leave you".
But I can´t get very far with that thought, because all the circumstances become too complicated - like what you mention about someone else shot Sheila first - and then what? Sheila herself shot a second time? It gets awfully complicated, and what about the telephone calls?
June was also shot in bed first, that adds to the complications.
Yes,Alias,,that letter read to me like a suicide note,,but how things actually panned out,I'm not sure either,,but I've thought for long enough now that it was a fight to the finish between Sheila and June.I've no doubt whatsoever about that at all. Nothing to do with Jeremy,,but at the same time,nobody gave him a thought,unless Neville twigged that Jeremy would get the blame,so gave him an alibi by ringing him,not thinking that it wouldn't be believed. The most unfortunate circumstances if ever there were any.
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Not one footprint was found belonging to those present or anyone else for that matter,,given the volume of blood that was around.
I also remember reading,ages ago,about how the twins were on the landing. Who would have known that ? I can't even remember where I read it as I'd just joined. With all the racket going on,,it wouldn't have surprised me that the children woke up and got up to see what was going on.It's what children do,,and they hadn't been drugged.
God forbid! I have always taken solace in that the twins never woke up and never knew what was coming to them.
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God forbid! I have always taken solace in that the twins never woke up and never knew what was coming to them.
I know it doesn't bear thinking,Alias,,but I'd definitely read about it,but was always puzzled as to how anyone would have known. The whole argument comes back to the point about times of death,,which when not recorded,leaves a void in the investigation.It's a crucial part of any inquiry,and it just makes me so angry because it's all part and parcel of a near accurate time of death, to discount blame, especially when some poor sod is outside not knowing anything.
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How would you all feel if I turned the tables and said it was June who'd " kicked off " ? As opposed to it having been Sheila,as whatever had happened to June to have received a black eye previously,,she was also under par,mentally and had the burden of worry over Sheila,the twins and also her husband who was beginning to feel ill with worry too. It's not impossible for June to have snapped when things got more heated,,and I think it was June.or even Neville who fired that first shot to Sheilas' neck.
It was definitely between the three adults.
Not forgetting the fact that because June could never bear children,that alone from her previous years would have left its mark,plus her own past treatment at the clinic/hospital.
Interesting. New topic maybe to explore more?
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Interesting. New topic maybe to explore more?
Yes,HME,we could then delve into finding out about June and her personal problems,etc. Bring about a new slant on the investigation.
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If we believe that Nevill made two phone calls then we have to believe that it was Sheila that kicked off,and not June. Nevill told both Jeremy and the police that it was Sheila. Twins were never on the landing,they slept through it...thank god!
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Yes,Alias,,that letter read to me like a suicide note,,but how things actually panned out,I'm not sure either,,but I've thought for long enough now that it was a fight to the finish between Sheila and June.I've no doubt whatsoever about that at all. Nothing to do with Jeremy,,but at the same time,nobody gave him a thought,unless Neville twigged that Jeremy would get the blame,so gave him an alibi by ringing him,not thinking that it wouldn't be believed. The most unfortunate circumstances if ever there were any.
Hi lookout I cannot accept the idea of a fight to the death between June and Sheila. Poor June is covered with blood and looked as though she'd had a long struggle but Sheila showed no signs of having struggled with anyone??
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Hi lookout I cannot accept the idea of a fight to the death between June and Sheila. Poor June is covered with blood and looked as though she'd had a long struggle but Sheila showed no signs of having struggled with anyone??
The reason that Sheila showed no signs of a struggle is that she had hold/control of the weapon that was doing the damage. Nobody stands a chance when the killer is holding a rifle.
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June,as we know,received the full force of the tragedy that night. Why ? Did June fire the first shot at Sheila, from the rifle which was under their bed ?
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I would think it rare if any shooter was marked in any way,unless the opponent was armed too.
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Not one footprint was found belonging to those present or anyone else for that matter,,given the volume of blood that was around.
I also remember reading,ages ago,about how the twins were on the landing. Who would have known that ? I can't even remember where I read it as I'd just joined. With all the racket going on,,it wouldn't have surprised me that the children woke up and got up to see what was going on.It's what children do,,and they hadn't been drugged.
But do we have to believe that? Because whoever did the murder must have stepped in blood somewhere along the line? What if the police when they came crashing clumsily into the door and stepped in the blood could not tell which were their footprints or those of the assailant? So put in their report that there were no footprints. Come on now do we really think that pigs erm police can fly?
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But do we have to believe that? Because whoever did the murder must have stepped in blood somewhere along the line? What if the police when they came crashing clumsily into the door and stepped in the blood could not tell which were their footprints or those of the assailant? So put in their report that there were no footprints. Come on now do we really think that pigs erm police can fly?
Indeed,Graham.
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Grahame when the police came crashing in at WHF they did not treat it as a crime scene as it was 4 murders one suicide. Nothing would have been preserved as such the whole thing was a total shambles even burning carpets etc. I am of the opinion the only people who know what happened is EP and they aint for telling :'(
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Grahame when the police came crashing in at WHF they did not treat it as a crime scene as it was 4 murders one suicide. Nothing would have been preserved as such the whole thing was a total shambles even burning carpets etc. I am of the opinion the only people who know what happened is EP and they aint for telling :'(
Hi Susan,,it's very rare for the police to admit to their own mistakes. So disgusting, as it's cost a man his life while they're busy thinking about their pensions.
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It surely would be easy to tell if the weapon had been used to beat Nevill - blood? Hair? Tissue evidence linked to Nevill? No? Odd!!
The hair on the silencer mysteriously vanished,Caroline. That,,for a start should have been questioned as to why it was handled in such a way that the evidence " escaped ".
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It surely would be easy to tell if the weapon had been used to beat Nevill - blood? Hair? Tissue evidence linked to Nevill? No? Odd!!
You would certainly think so Caroline. Neil's injuries were profound, there surely must have been evidence left on the weapon? If Nevill fell on his face when unconscious he would have been a dead weight and could have done all sorts of damage.
Knew someone who fainted at a bus stop after giving blood and fell against the stone shelter, she broke her jaw and knocked all her teeth out, so it's not an impossibility something similar happened to Neil imo.
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I agree, I don't think there was a 'struggle' i the kitchen or that Nevill was beaten with the rifle. There wouldn't have only been blood and tissue on the rifle but there would have been blood spatter all over the kitchen!!
The blood spatter would have been all over whoever beat him as well.
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No, that's what you would do with the full benefit of hindsight!! Of course it's NOT irrelevant that there is no evidence to prove that the calls did NOT take place. If all documents were released, who knows what could be proven? It's hard to win when the other side is playing with a loaded deck. I'd have thought the guilty side would be asking for ALL evidence/documents to be released to the defence, after-all if he is guilty, there will be nothing in there of any use, there will be no case to argue, you can all re-tighten your already smug smiles, gloat until your hearts are content and we can ask the last person on the forum to switch off the lights!!
No, that's what you would do with the full benefit of hindsight!!
No, that's what I would do if it happened. I would simply not let anyone (never mind someone emotionally disturbed) alone with a loaded gun - not for a second. it's almost impossible to believe anyone would including yourself.
Apologies for being so direct, but would you leave someone alone with a gun with other loved ones in the house and go off to make phone calls at 3am?
Hi Caroline - just catching up.
I can’t find your reply to my question above.
Is it possible you could answer it?
Thanks.
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No, that's what you would do with the full benefit of hindsight!!
No, that's what I would do if it happened. I would simply not let anyone (never mind someone emotionally disturbed) alone with a loaded gun - not for a second. it's almost impossible to believe anyone would including yourself.
Apologies for being so direct, but would you leave someone alone with a gun with other loved ones in the house and go off to make phone calls at 3am?
Hi Caroline - just catching up.
I can’t find your reply to my question above.
Is it possible you could answer it?
Thanks.
May I ask how you would have acted had you NOT known just how mentally disturbed the person was? Sheila was an adult. Her doctors weren't permitted to divulge details of her illness to anyone. It may be possible that June and Nevill's minds wouldn't allow then to contemplate what the full extent of her illness might be. You're correct in that we need the FULL benefit of hindsight, but as yet we don't have it. NOR did they.
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Sorry Lookout, I wasn't talking about the silencer. The premiss is that Nevill was beaten by the rifle butt, that being the case there would have been blood, hair and tissue matching Nevill's type all over it. But no such evidence was discussed at the trial.
That's an interesting observation ,Caroline, especially as the rifle was sent for forensic testing .
It begs the question as to why there is no documentation referring to testing the rifle butt for any evidence but then to rely on that scenario in court . It doesn't ring true that the prosecution would fail to back up their proposed scenario with easily acquired forensics.
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518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.519. Having studied with care the statement of Mr Ismail, we concluded that this was expert evidence capable of belief. Indeed if it had been given and if cross-examination had not revealed flaws in it (which we consider unlikely bearing in mind that there was no application to call any expert evidence to contradict it), had we been on a jury hearing such evidence we might well have been very impressed by it. That evidence in itself could have led to a conclusion of guilt quite apart from the many other matters relied upon by the prosecution at trial. However, we were not satisfied that evidence of this kind was not available at the date of trial if the prosecution had sought to explore these matters and more importantly we thought that Mr Turner was right in his submission that it was very difficult to gauge with sufficient certainty the reaction of a jury to it particularly when we could not judge it against all the related evidence in the trial, which we had not heard.
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Mentioned yesterday by me from the 2002 appeal verdict.
Did Jeremy or the police pull Sheila's legs after the second gun shot & before the photos ?
Or was it Crispy ? ? ?
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Mentioned yesterday by me from the 2002 appeal verdict.
Did Jeremy or the police pull Sheila's legs after the second gun shot & before the photos ?
The police were demonstrably guilty of some manipulation of the crime scene as shown by the photographic evidence and their own half arsed explanations for the discrepancies. Given this do you not consider it a possibility that EP moved Sheila's body?
They are, after all, the only proven manipulators of the crime scene .
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Mentioned yesterday by me from the 2002 appeal verdict.
Did Jeremy or the police pull Sheila's legs after the second gun shot & before the photos ?
How could Jeremy have done ANYTHING to ANY body? If we may imagine a murderer totally oblivious to the sights, sounds, smells and tastes of multiple deaths, this murderer could not be said to be of sound mind. 20 or so psychiatrists have ascertained this is not the case with Jeremy......................which leaves the police.
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Thanks. Thought it must have been those silly police officers.
Pulling legs at a crime scene. Sack the lot of them.
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Thanks. Thought it must have been those silly police officers.
Pulling legs at a crime scene. Sack the lot of them.
Adam, I get the feeling that one or two of us would quite like to do the same to you :D
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Adam why are you acting so childish again I thought you had given that up and was going to behave like a grown up.
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Thanks. Thought it must have been those silly police officers.
Pulling legs at a crime scene. Sack the lot of them.
It was pointed out to you that EP provably moved things in the crime scene .
No doubt you can tell us exactly what Jeremy was thinking as he pulled Sheila down by the legs?
Sorry to say Adam, but we've already got Steve UK on here to entertain us with his speculative and presumptious theories; the fascinating insights into the thoughts and workings of Jeremy's mind and you're just the low rent version
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It was pointed out to you that EP provably moved things in the crime scene .
No doubt you can tell us exactly what Jeremy was thinking as he pulled Sheila down by the legs?
Sorry to say Adam, but we've already got Steve UK on here to entertain us with his speculative and presumptious theories; the fascinating insights into the thoughts and workings of Jeremy's mind and you're just the low rent version
Gringo, HOW eloquent :D
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Thanks Gringo, is it possible for someone to be beaten about the head with some force (as we are led to believe) and yet leave no hair, blood or tissue traces on the rifle and around the location of the attack?
It's also the lack of any paper trail pertaining to this.
As you imply in your question , it would not be possible to leave no trace so why was this not supported with forensics? Did the results perhaps not fit with the story being told ?
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518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.519. Having studied with care the statement of Mr Ismail, we concluded that this was expert evidence capable of belief. Indeed if it had been given and if cross-examination had not revealed flaws in it (which we consider unlikely bearing in mind that there was no application to call any expert evidence to contradict it), had we been on a jury hearing such evidence we might well have been very impressed by it. That evidence in itself could have led to a conclusion of guilt quite apart from the many other matters relied upon by the prosecution at trial. However, we were not satisfied that evidence of this kind was not available at the date of trial if the prosecution had sought to explore these matters and more importantly we thought that Mr Turner was right in his submission that it was very difficult to gauge with sufficient certainty the reaction of a jury to it particularly when we could not judge it against all the related evidence in the trial, which we had not heard.
In actual fact it is highly likely that the police moved her body. Ann Eaton stated that a policeman informed her that Sheila was on the bed together with June next to her with the rifle between her. To be honest the police messed around with the crime scene so much it is very difficult to tell what was moved and what wasn't. But I personally believe that Sheila was moved and that the cops are covering for each other. Which they usually do.
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It's also the lack of any paper trail pertaining to this.
As you imply in your question , it would not be possible to leave no trace so why was this not supported with forensics? Did the results perhaps not fit with the story being told ?
I wonder how many more results fall into the same category.
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Thanks. Thought it must have been those silly police officers.
Pulling legs at a crime scene. Sack the lot of them.
I believe if Ann Eaton is telling the truth about Sheila and June being found on the bed that Sheila was moved from the bed to the floor. And because Jeremy saw two photos of police officers at the scene "horsing about" One urinating against the greenhouse. Another waving some kind of flag or banner out of the skylight in the roof. then the official crime scene photos cannot be believed at all.
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I wonder how many more results fall into the same category.
Quite likely the entire contents of the initial investigation SC/688/85 ;)
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I believe if Ann Eaton is telling the truth about Sheila and June being found on the bed that Sheila was moved from the bed to the floor. And because Jeremy saw two photos of police officers at the scene "horsing about" One urinating against the greenhouse. Another waving some kind of flag or banner out of the skylight in the roof. then the official crime scene photos cannot be believed at all.
So much for respect of the dead ! What a pity all that didn't come out at the trial.
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Quite likely the entire contents of the initial investigation SC/688/85 ;)
The possibility had crossed my mind :)
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In actual fact it is highly likely that the police moved her body. Ann Eaton stated that a policeman informed her that Sheila was on the bed together with June next to her with the rifle between her. To be honest the police messed around with the crime scene so much it is very difficult to tell what was moved and what wasn't. But I personally believe that Sheila was moved and that the cops are covering for each other. Which they usually do.
What's the betting that Adam refuses to engage with your point, or any of the many other points raised by others which clearly demonstrate police tampering of the scene, and instead gives us another ripping yarn which ignores the known facts and instead relies upon supposition and conjecture :)
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Gringo supposition, conjecture and nonsense ;D
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Grahame wonder why the police moved Sheila off the bed onto the floor and wonder why Sheila was on the bed next to June in the first place none of it makes sense to me. Police were totally disgusting behaving so disrespectfully wonder what else they did immature men by the sound of it lacking in brain cells.
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EP later admitted pulling Sheila's nightdress down to save her dignity. For those that do not believe that EP moved and staged Sheila's body,they should read (I think) it is Collins statement. He and another officer stated that when they first saw SC's body,her head was in a different position in relation to the bedside cabinet and they don't recall ANY rifle on or near her body. They raised this matter at the debriefing. Regarding Nevill's injuries,I'm not certain why Adam relates his damaged jaw,larnyx etc to any beating. These injuries were caused by gunshot. Any 'beating' with the rifle or any other object caused linear lacerations to Nevill's head.
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Who was it that told JM that Sheila and June were found on the bed ? Ann Eaton,or the police ?
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Hi tyler good post I did wonder how Nevill got the injuries to his jaw and I think you have explained this very well. Adam likes to make matters as gruesome as he can and is trying to shock the forum with his graphic details. Not working we have heard it all before.
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Hi lookout I was led to believe it was Ann Eaton who said the police had told her they were both found on the bed.
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Hi lookout I was led to believe it was Ann Eaton who said the police had told her they were both found on the bed.
And AE must have been in their company and asking questions for several hours before JM arrived.
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Hi lookout I was led to believe it was Ann Eaton who said the police had told her they were both found on the bed.
You wouldn't really know,Susan,,because AE would have been covering for the cop who originally told her,or how would she have known ? They were all covering each other it seems. Then JM was right up the backsides of those who protected her. Didn't AE try and deny the fact at trial,,that she knew the bodies were on the bed ?
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Lookout,AE told Mugford about June and Sheila allegedly being found on the bed. A copper told this to AE. I forget his name,Mike would remember. I personally believe that it was also AE that gave her the info about the windows and Nevill's alleged massive fight in the kitchen.AE and RWB were gleaning all the info from coppers,possibly Robert Carr? Mugford never told anything to police that she hadn't learned from the relatives or the papers and that is why I do not believe her story.
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Lookout,AE told Mugford about June and Sheila allegedly being found on the bed. A copper told this to AE. I forget his name,Mike would remember. I personally believe that it was also AE that gave her the info about the windows and Nevill's alleged massive fight in the kitchen.AE and RWB were gleaning all the info from coppers,possibly Robert Carr? Mugford never told anything to police that she hadn't learned from the relatives or the papers and that is why I do not believe her story.
I thought the policeman's name was DI Clarke
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Who was it that told JM that Sheila and June were found on the bed ? Ann Eaton,or the police ?
A policeman told Ann Eaton but she cannot recall who.
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518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.519. Having studied with care the statement of Mr Ismail, we concluded that this was expert evidence capable of belief. Indeed if it had been given and if cross-examination had not revealed flaws in it (which we consider unlikely bearing in mind that there was no application to call any expert evidence to contradict it), had we been on a jury hearing such evidence we might well have been very impressed by it. That evidence in itself could have led to a conclusion of guilt quite apart from the many other matters relied upon by the prosecution at trial. However, we were not satisfied that evidence of this kind was not available at the date of trial if the prosecution had sought to explore these matters and more importantly we thought that Mr Turner was right in his submission that it was very difficult to gauge with sufficient certainty the reaction of a jury to it particularly when we could not judge it against all the related evidence in the trial, which we had not heard.
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??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Sorry, I have to go by what the appeal court judges said in their verdict.
I see no reason why the police would move Sheila from the bed to the floor prior to photos being taken. They are not stupid. The appeal judges did not suggest the police had done this Although they did move the gun.
Will be happy to be proved wrong with documentation, just like I have just provided documentation.
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A policeman told Ann Eaton but she cannot recall who.
That's right,Grahame,,but she remembered everything else that she was prompted to remember.
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april great post from Adam best yet ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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What's the betting that Adam refuses to engage with your point, or any of the many other points raised by others which clearly demonstrate police tampering of the scene, and instead gives us another ripping yarn which ignores the known facts and instead relies upon supposition and conjecture :)
Who is this ? I do not recognise this name in the 140 pages of this thread.
I have contributed on virtually all pages on this thread. Answering everyones questions, putting my views across & submitting new information.
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april great post from Adam best yet ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thank you Susan.
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Grahame when the police came crashing in at WHF they did not treat it as a crime scene as it was 4 murders one suicide. Nothing would have been preserved as such the whole thing was a total shambles even burning carpets etc. I am of the opinion the only people who know what happened is EP and they aint for telling :'(
Crashing in ?
The raid team were experienced in what they do. They were not been attacked or shot at, so see no reason why they should crash in.
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Who is this ? I do not recognise this name in the 140 pages of this thread.
I have contributed on virtually all pages on this thread. Answering everyones questions, putting my views across & submitting new information.
Gringo is an excellent " old " poster,Adam.
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april great post from Adam best yet ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes, Susan. That one in particular spoke volumes ;D
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Adam crashing in. Knocked the table over and goodness knows what else they did that was not documented sugar bowl spilled goodness gracious me I do declare. ;D
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lookout don't think Gringo is that old ;D ;D ;D certainly a poster who is well respected and very experienced and knows what he is talking about.
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No, that's what you would do with the full benefit of hindsight!!
No, that's what I would do if it happened. I would simply not let anyone (never mind someone emotionally disturbed) alone with a loaded gun - not for a second. it's almost impossible to believe anyone would including yourself.
Apologies for being so direct, but would you leave someone alone with a gun with other loved ones in the house and go off to make phone calls at 3am?
Hi Caroline - just catching up.
I can’t find your reply to my question above.
Is it possible you could answer it?
Thanks.
Wasn´t it careless in the first place to leave weapons about with a mentally volatile person (well, two, if you count June) and two little boys?
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I see you have neglected to answer the question(s) about lack of evidence on the rifle re: the struggle and beating of Nevill in the kitchen and with reference to the picture I posted - where is it broken?
Thought the butt of the gun was dented.
If Nevilles teeth, jaw, neck & eyes were not damaged by a blunt object, it must have been from bare hands. Or someone wearing gloves. More likely to be Jeremy. Uness the scenario suggested yesterday where Sheila shoots Neville three times & then spends the next few minutes beating him while dead.
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Adam crashing in. Knocked the table over and goodness knows what else they did that was not documented sugar bowl spilled goodness gracious me I do declare. ;D
Knocked a table & sugar bowl over ? Have not read that before.
The crime scene police & raid team were like 'Laurel & Hardy'.
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Adam did you not read tyler's post put up earlier I suggest you do you could learn so much from her. ;D
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Thought the butt of the gun was dented.
If Nevilles teeth, jaw, neck & eyes were not damaged by a blunt object, it must have been from bare hands. Or someone wearing gloves. More likely to be Jeremy. Uness the scenario suggested yesterday where Sheila shoots Neville three times & then spends the next few minutes beating him while dead.
It's just possible that the pathologist knew the difference between bullet wounds and blunt object trauma.
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lookout don't think Gringo is that old ;D ;D ;D certainly a poster who is well respected and very experienced and knows what he is talking about.
I should have said " long-standing " and not old,Susan,,but I know what I meant. ;D ;D Yes,,he is well respected and very knowing.
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Who is this ? I do not recognise this name in the 140 pages of this thread.
I have contributed on virtually all pages on this thread. Answering everyones questions, putting my views across & submitting new information.
I have read most of your ramblings on here and haven't contributed much to this thread so far because your level of debate is witless frankly . You answer barely any questions and this thread is littered with comments from various posters pointing this out so you clearly don't read the thread.
As for not recognising me from previous pages ; are you now the arbiter of who can comment and where on a public forum that you joined 15 days ago?
You also have not submitted new information, you have just gone over old ground(there are other pages on this forum) and are clearly less informed than most posters on here.
:)
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lookout I know what you meant but you know me can't resist a laugh. Gringo knows what we are like ;D ;D ;D
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Adam keep reading you will find it I promise you ;D it is impossible for you to absorb 28 years of information in 15 days ;D
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I have read most of your ramblings on here and haven't contributed much to this thread so far because your level of debate is witless frankly . You answer barely any questions and this thread is littered with comments from various posters pointing this out so you clearly don't read the thread.
As for not recognising me from previous pages ; are you now the arbiter of who can comment and where on a public forum that you joined 15 days ago?
You also have not submitted new information, you have just gone over old ground(there are other pages on this forum) and are clearly less informed than most posters on here.
:)
And over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over....................I guess you know where I'm coming from, don't you :)
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If we believe that Nevill made two phone calls then we have to believe that it was Sheila that kicked off,and not June. Nevill told both Jeremy and the police that it was Sheila. Twins were never on the landing,they slept through it...thank god!
Although Jeremy told Mary Mugford that June is a religious maniac, he would never try to pin the crime on her. Sheila was much more likely.
Colin Caffell said Jeremy was very interested in Sheila's health situation soon before the night & asked when Sheila was next staying at the farm.
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I love a bit of banter.
But let us all discuss the case rather than get personel.
People do not like me questioning Jeremys innocence & suggesting things. Everyone on here supports Jeremy. Except Steve.
My arguments are good & I know a lot about the case. My arguments are often supported with documentation.
I answer all questions I see. Rather than telling people to research it themselves.
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Although Jeremy told Mary Mugford that June is a religious maniac, he would never try to pin the crime on her. Sheila was much more likely.
Colin Caffell said Jeremy was very interested in Sheila's health situation soon before the night & asked when Sheila was next staying at the farm.
Maybe it was just an annoyance to him when she was staying. Sheila must have been very "needy", I think he could have resented that. He just wanted to know how bad it possibly would get with her. He could even have been afraid of her - the gas-man (or was it an electrician?) and Freddie certainly were.
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Maybe it was just an annoyance to him when she was staying. Sheila must have been very "needy", I think he could have resented that. He just wanted to know how bad it possibly would get with her. He could even have been afraid of her - the gas-man (or was it an electrician?) and Freddie certainly were.
Or maybe her behaviour at the party was giving cause for concern.
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Maybe it was just an annoyance to him when she was staying. Sheila must have been very "needy", I think he could have resented that. He just wanted to know how bad it possibly would get with her. He could even have been afraid of her - the gas-man (or was it an electrician?) and Freddie certainly were.
Why would it be an annoyance ? He worked outside on the farm & lived in a cottage over 3 miles away.
He certainly resented her living in Maida Vale without having to get her hands dirty on the farm.
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Adam keep reading you will find it I promise you ;D it is impossible for you to absorb 28 years of information in 15 days ;D
Adam isn't attempting to absorb information, Susan, or at least not all of it. He only wants the bits that fit his own narrative and as these are so compromised he resorts to storytelling and rehashing old hearsay from third rate books and biased sources :)
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You haven't answered all of the questions at all!! You're cherry picking!!
Sorry I am not perfect.
Ask away.
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I love a bit of banter.
But let us all discuss the case rather than get personel.
People do not like me questioning Jeremys innocence & suggesting things. Everyone on here supports Jeremy. Except Steve.
My arguments are good & I know a lot about the case. My arguments are often supported with documentation.
I answer all questions I see. Rather than telling people to research it themselves.
It's only your opinion that your arguments are good. Frankly, on occasions, they come close to being puerile.
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Adam isn't attempting to absorb information, Susan, or at least not all of it. He only wants the bits that fit his own narrative and as these are so compromised he resorts to storytelling and rehashing old hearsay from third rate books and biased sources :)
My scensrio is a story. It also matched the crime scene & bullet allocation.
Is that the book which I posted the 5 star reviews on here. I was not cherry picking the reviews. They all gave it 5 stars.
What have you read on Jeremy Bamber ?
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Why would it be an annoyance ? He worked outside on the farm & lived in a cottage over 3 miles away.
He certainly resented her living in Maida Vale without having to get her hands dirty on the farm.
I would think that June and Nevill would get stressed out and tired (irritable) with the extra workload with Sheila and the boys at the farm. Since Jeremy worked there, it would have influenced his dayly life.
Absolutely, April, her behavious at the party could have given him cause for concern.
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I would think that June and Nevill would get stressed out and tired (irritable) with the extra workload with Sheila and the boys at the farm. Since Jeremy worked there, it would have influenced his dayly life.
Absolutely, April, her behavious at the party could have given him cause for concern.
Just a thought, Alias, but he may not have seen her for some time and he may have been shocked by what he was seeing.
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Although Jeremy told Mary Mugford that June is a religious maniac, he would never try to pin the crime on her. Sheila was much more likely.
Colin Caffell said Jeremy was very interested in Sheila's health situation soon before the night & asked when Sheila was next staying at the farm.
Is this somehow meant to imply that therefore Jeremy was planning a murder spree ?
So a bloke enquires about the health of his sister in a chat with his brother in law and this leads you to believe ... what?
Are you also aware that on being told the news of Sheila's spree, when it was believed by all that Sheila was responsible, that Colin was not surprised and said words to the effect that "she's finally done it" ?
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Crashing in ?
The raid team were experienced in what they do. They were not been attacked or shot at, so see no reason why they should crash in.
So they didn't use a sledge hammer to brake in? The even admitted to turning over tables and chairs and spilling the sugar. Believe me they always crash into houses when they break through.
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Just a thought, Alias, but he may not have seen her for some time and he may have been shocked by what he was seeing.
Yes, he could also sinply have worried about his sister´s condition!
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My scensrio is a story. It also matched the crime scene & bullet allocation.
Is that the book which I posted the 5 star reviews on here. I was not cherry picking the reviews. They all gave it 5 stars.
What have you read on Jeremy Bamber ?
Bet your dad's bigger than my dad too ;)
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Knocked a table & sugar bowl over ? Have not read that before.
The crime scene police & raid team were like 'Laurel & Hardy'.
No...More like the Keystone Cops.
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I would think that June and Nevill would get stressed out and tired (irritable) with the extra workload with Sheila and the boys at the farm. Since Jeremy worked there, it would have influenced his dayly life.
Absolutely, April, her behavious at the party could have given him cause for concern.
That could be it. Jeremy was concerned.
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That could be it. Jeremy was concerned.
Wouldn´t be the first sibling/family member of a schizophrenic to be concerned....
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I love a bit of banter.
But let us all discuss the case rather than get personel.
People do not like me questioning Jeremys innocence & suggesting things. Everyone on here supports Jeremy. Except Steve.
My arguments are good & I know a lot about the case. My arguments are often supported with documentation.
I answer all questions I see. Rather than telling people to research it themselves.
Well said Adam and I welcome you having your own views and fully support you posting them on here. :)
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Well said Adam and I welcome you having your own views and fully support you posting them on here. :)
Thank you Grahame.
We have disagreed on most points. But discuss the points only.
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My scensrio is a story. It also matched the crime scene & bullet allocation.
Is that the book which I posted the 5 star reviews on here. I was not cherry picking the reviews. They all gave it 5 stars.
What have you read on Jeremy Bamber ?
If you read the ballistics evidence with an uncritical eye you will find that the crime scene and bullet allocation, on which you rely to draw your conclusions, is so compromised it is made worthless.
Are you aware that the police destroyed all ballistics evidence in 1996 just at the time of huge advances in DNA science techniques? Why do you think they did this or do matters such as this not trouble you ?
I have read many things over many years on this case and am not getting into a pissing contest with someone who knew very little 15 days ago by his own own admission.
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We have both read up on the case. Good, we can discuss it & exchange information & views.
Jeremy had been convicted & lost an appeal by 1996. Suspect it was standard practice for things to be disposed.
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It's not!
Tell me more. Or do I have to research it ?
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Wasn´t there a court order to preserve that evidence?
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Yes, there are cases that have been on-going for a lot longer than Jeremy's and the evience is still available. Strange how it was destroyed just as DNA techniques were developing!!
Yes, very strange. ;)
Heard about a similar thing happening in a state in the US. The police officers and prosecutor were all held accountable and punihed for what they did, not to mention, they lost their jobs.
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Tell me more. Or do I have to research it ?
Apparently evidence should not be destroyed where there is an ongoing appeal? It is strange that potentially important evidence was destroyed such as the tapes. But other less important stuff was not destroyed. Methinks the cops were covering their arses?
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Apparently evidence should not be destroyed where there is an ongoing appeal? It is strange that potentially important evidence was destroyed such as the tapes. But other less important stuff was not destroyed. Methinks the cops were covering their arses?
Plus EP are holding out on him by refusing the release of files/documents that are of relevence to the case,and most importantly,,,,,of the UTMOST importance to Jeremy. Why their refusal after so long ?
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Plus EP are holding out on him by refusing the release of files/documents that are of relevence to the case,and most importantly,,,,,of the UTMOST importance to Jeremy. Why their refusal after so long ?
I can only assume that they would reveal a serious misconduct of certain police officers that may result in a full scale inquiry?
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Like Hillsborough,you mean,Grahame,where 13 ex-officers are refusing to co-operate with the inquiry.
If they can do that,,they can do anything,eh.? What chance does Jeremy stand ? How long has that inquiry been now ?
I'm fast losing patience as it's like hitting your head against a brick wall,between the officers concerned and the rellies. Corruption Rules !
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Is this somehow meant to imply that therefore Jeremy was planning a murder spree ?
So a bloke enquires about the health of his sister in a chat with his brother in law and this leads you to believe ... what?
Are you also aware that on being told the news of Sheila's spree, when it was believed by all that Sheila was responsible, that Colin was not surprised and said words to the effect that "she's finally done it" ?
An off the cuff remark similar to Jeremy's claim that the Police had killed his parents.Had Colin or social workers had any grounds to think Sheila a danger to her children they would not have left them in her care.
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An off the cuff remark similar to Jeremy's claim that the Police had killed his parents.Had Colin or social workers had any grounds to think Sheila a danger to her children they would not have left them in her care.
Steve,,come on hun,,how many children are slipping through the net,nowadays ? Too many !
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Steve,,come on hun,,how many children are slipping through the net,nowadays ? Too many !
..and I think political correctness might play some part as social workers are reluctant to take children from ethnic minority or immigrant parents.
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..and I think political correctness might play some part as social workers are reluctant to take children from ethnic minority or immigrant parents.
Nothing to do with ethnics or immigrants,Steve. As I see it,it's mainly whites who abuse/neglect/kill their children. They all need re-training to my mind.
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An off the cuff remark similar to Jeremy's claim that the Police had killed his parents.Had Colin or social workers had any grounds to think Sheila a danger to her children they would not have left them in her care.
Sorry Steve, that won't wash because she's had private psych care and they don't involve themselves with NHS and social services. Colin had the main responsibility for the childrens' care with the minimum of input from SS.
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Nothing to do with ethnics or immigrants,Steve. As I see it,it's mainly whites who abuse/neglect/kill their children. They all need re-training to my mind.
I was thinking of Victoria Climbie,Hamzah Khan and Daniel Pelka.
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I was thinking of Victoria Climbie,Hamzah Khan and Daniel Pelka.
I was also thinking of Daniel,as well as Peter,,all of who were overlooked/ignored by the people who let them down. All the signs were there,the same as with Sheilas' twins when the school-teacher pointed it out. That was in the early 80's this is the 21st century and still happening,,so the problem lies with the social workers and their lack of communication between other professionals.
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I was also thinking of Daniel,as well as Peter,,all of who were overlooked/ignored by the people who let them down. All the signs were there,the same as with Sheilas' twins when the school-teacher pointed it out. That was in the early 80's this is the 21st century and still happening,,so the problem lies with the social workers and their lack of communication between other professionals.
So,,what does it tell you Steve ? That we're no further on with mental illness than we were in the early 80's.
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So,,what does it tell you Steve ? That we're no further on with mental illness than we were in the early 80's.
IMO, Lookout, we've taken a retrograde step.
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..and I think political correctness might play some part as social workers are reluctant to take children from ethnic minority or immigrant parents.
The implications of some of your postings do not suggest that you are a reasonable , fair minded person, Steve :o
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IMO, Lookout, we've taken a retrograde step.
You're telling me,April. Just what is happening ? Or not,as the case maybe.
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Sorry Steve, that won't wash because she's had private psych care and they don't involve themselves with NHS and social services. Colin had the main responsibility for the childrens' care with the minimum of input from SS.
On the contrary;if you read Dr.Ferguson's statements he urged Sheila to continue treatment on the NHS. I also find it unlikely that he would not have informed social services at the first opportunity if he believed Sheila to be capable of harming the boys.
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On the contrary;if you read Dr.Ferguson's statements he urged Sheila to continue treatment on the NHS. I also find it unlikely that he would not have informed social services at the first opportunity if he believed Sheila to be capable of harming the boys.
At least the teacher/s at the twins school put their feelers out to the social services,,which was more in this day and age that they did for poor Daniel Pelka when they saw him rummaging in the bin for food.
The boys were being neglected,Steve.Getting their own breakfasts,dressing themselves and going without a wash. Their drawings reflected their home life,yet nobody picked up on that alone,which should have happened because there was no such thing as PC in those days,but sadly the authorities were as blind then as they are now.
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The implications of some of your postings do not suggest that you are a reasonable , fair minded person, Steve :o
I'd far rather be called politically incorrect and those three children still alive today. I'll say it again:too many social workers are reluctant to take children of immigrants or an ethnic minority background away from their parents lest they be labelled racist..
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I'd far rather be called politically incorrect and those three children still alive today. I'll say it again:too many social workers are reluctant to take children of immigrants or an ethnic minority background away from their parents lest they be labelled racist..
I say tuff to that,,as I'm not a PC person by any means. I do and say what I think best,not what's dictated to me. It wouldn't matter to me what colour the children were,as abuse is abuse and I'd whip them away from harm, no problem.
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She would never have committed suicide in the same room as her mother.
Uhhhhh that is EXACTLY what YOU and 90% of the people on this board believe happened .......you believe Sheila murdered her family then committed suicide in her parent's bedroom.......DUH ..........
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Well done Adam clap clap clap
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Yes, he's managed to cause quite a distraction.
I don't know about a distraction.I'd call it a blooming annoyance,personally, because he completely ignores my posts ! Makes me wonder why.
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I don't know about a distraction.I'd call it a blooming annoyance,personally, because he completely ignores my posts ! Makes me wonder why.
He ignores all the posts he can't answer, Lookout, he's just trolling
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I don't know about a distraction.I'd call it a blooming annoyance,personally, because he completely ignores my posts ! Makes me wonder why.
He doesn't go out of his way to respond to mine either, Lookout.
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Uhhhhh that is EXACTLY what YOU and 90% of the people on this board believe happened .......you believe Sheila murdered her family then committed suicide in her parent's bedroom.......DUH ..........
Lovely to see you posting SirSimeon.
Give yourself a pat on the back ......... Oh!! You just have!!!!!
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Uhhhhh that is EXACTLY what YOU and 90% of the people on this board believe happened .......you believe Sheila murdered her family then committed suicide in her parent's bedroom.......DUH ..........
I don't believe I know you so therefore you don't know me well enough to include me in that 90%.
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He ignores all the posts he can't answer, Lookout, he's just trolling
Hi Gringo,,agreed.
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He doesn't go out of his way to respond to mine either, Lookout.
Speaks volumes,April,,as gringo stated.
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I don't believe I know you so therefore you don't know me well enough to include me in that 90%.
He's a troll April aren't you Daniel?
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He's a troll April aren't you Daniel?
Thought so,Maggie.Instead of admitting defeat,,they change ID to either agree or disagree./Don't see the sense in it myself. Could be Adam too,as Daniel used to also ignore me.
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Well done Adam clap clap clap
He says, in the voice of Crusty the clown. ;D
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Thought so,Maggie.Instead of admitting defeat,,they change ID to either agree or disagree./Don't see the sense in it myself. Could be Adam too,as Daniel used to also ignore me.
Think there's a possibility that could be right Lookout ;D
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Think there's a possibility that could be right Lookout ;D
Same hurried style of posts,Maggie. Repetative too.
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lookout/maggie you are both forgetting Adam is on the forum to prove Jeremy "Guilty" Ha Ha Ha
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lookout/maggie you are both forgetting Adam is on the forum to prove Jeremy "Guilty" Ha Ha Ha
I wouldn't have known if you hadn't told me,Susan. ;D ;D ;D Hee hee hee.
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lookout do you think we should tell him about the Trial ;D ;D ;D Nah let him carry on enjoying himself ;D
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lookout do you think we should tell him about the Trial ;D ;D ;D Nah let him carry on enjoying himself ;D
And the Dickinson Report as well,Susan,,where copies of interviews of JM and her mother were never given to the defence,,along with the many interviews of senior police officers.
I'm wondering whose name/ID he'll use seeing that he's been rumbled and made a backward exit. ???
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If it was to get support or help and I didn't think there was an immediate danger - of course!!
Your statement relates to a situation where there was no immediate danger, so is not relevant to this situation.
Clearly there was an immediate danger "sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun" and all the family were killed - how immediate and dangerous do you want a situation to be :o
Would you also encourage a member of your family over to face the danger of someone with a gun?
This point clearly urks me as to believe one would phone someone in this situation - immediate and dangerous - and bring another person (JB) into such a position - one is on another planet.
JB's lie (the alleged call from Nevill) has many flaws in this made up scenario.
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Hi Nickos, ;) I accept that your reasoning has lead you to the conclusion JB is guilty however, it is only your opinion based on the evidence we know. It is just as easy to believe there is a reasonable possibility of doubt based on available evidence. You can state that the phone call categorically didn't happen but you cannot prove it.
Its true JB is in prison and has been for 28 years so why argue his guilt, he's where you want him to be, so what's the argument? Is it that you are not as certain as you claim to be and your argument is more about keeping yourself convinced than others?
No offence Nick but JB is one of the most securely locked up prisoners in this country and without a miracle will probably remain that way for the rest of his life. Isn't there a teeny weeny doubt that a young man incarcerated at 24 years old and sentenced to the rest of his life in prison may, just may be as innocent as he claims to be?. Have you seriously considered what a disaster this is for him if he is in fact innocent? :)
Hi Nickos, I accept that your reasoning has lead you to the conclusion JB is guilty however, it is only your opinion based on the evidence we know.
Maggie are you basing your reasoning on evidence we don't know?
Hi Maggie,
Just catching up.
You didn't answer my question above?
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The situation was made more dangerous by those who " knew " of Jeremys' intentions,,allegedly.
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lookout Well I do declare Adam has been rumbled. Please elaborate as I am interested ;D
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lookout Well I do declare Adam has been rumbled. Please elaborate as I am interested ;D
He of a few ID's,.Susan. Must think I came up the river on me bike. ;D I tread with trepidation when I see a " new face ". ::)
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HaHaHa lookout or that you fell off a flitting as we say in Yorkshire, or up the Clyde in a banana boat as they say in Scotland ;D ;D ;D
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The evidence appears to suggest that there was some kind of "situation" that included Nevill,Sheila and Nevill's shotgun round about midnight when a witness hears gunshots coming from the area of whf. And of course the fingerprints of both of them were found on the shotgun. It may be that Sheila locked herself in the downstairs bathroom with the rifle and was in a state of psychosis. Nevill,unable to get in the bathroom and worried for her safety may have asked Jeremy to the farm knowing that he could open that bathroom window? Whilst Nevill was speaking to Jeremy,Sheila may have come out the bathroom,gone upstairs and begun shooting at June which caused Nevill to drop the phone and run upstairs where he to was shot. Just a possibility?
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That does indeed seem very likely,tyler.
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By Sheilas' own admission to Doctor Ferguson,,she told him how fearful she was that the twins would kill her,,or her own fear that she would kill them. I'm surprised that the doctor dismissed both these terms of speech which are very real when the patient happens to suffer from a debilitating mental illness. What Sheila had said should have been taken as a " threat " because if I'd been the doctor after events unfolded at the farmhouse,I'd have said straight away without a shadow of a doubt,that Sheila had committed the murders while in a psychotic state.
The doctor even admitted himself that the mention of the twins being fostered would have " tipped her over the edge ".
Sadly,this case only points one way,and that's to poor Sheila with her tortured mind. If only the system hadn't let her and her family down. Because it did,,,abysmally.
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I guess if Dr F had admitted that Sheila was a threat to anyone, questions would be asked about why more wasn't done to prevent the tragedy - like who sanctioned the reduced dosage in her meds. They all stick together in a crisis!!
Caroline, I was about to say that if Sheila had been the threat she feared herself to be, not only was Dr F's diagnosis SERIOUSLY wrong, but her mental state was contributed to ny those mucked up meds. I feel certain they would have taken the view that "dumbing down" was the best course of action, ESPECIALLY if the only lay person to know the extent of her illness was Sheila herself.
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The evidence appears to suggest that there was some kind of "situation" that included Nevill,Sheila and Nevill's shotgun round about midnight when a witness hears gunshots coming from the area of whf. And of course the fingerprints of both of them were found on the shotgun. It may be that Sheila locked herself in the downstairs bathroom with the rifle and was in a state of psychosis. Nevill,unable to get in the bathroom and worried for her safety may have asked Jeremy to the farm knowing that he could open that bathroom window? Whilst Nevill was speaking to Jeremy,Sheila may have come out the bathroom,gone upstairs and begun shooting at June which caused Nevill to drop the phone and run upstairs where he to was shot. Just a possibility?
Yes this does seem logical to me . Then when he realised what was happening he may have been trying to get down to the phone again to get more help.
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Hi Tyler, I agree - if Nevill thought that Sheila was a danger only to herself (ie. not threatening ANYONE else with the rifle/shot gun), then he may have sort 'non-professional' help - not wanting his daughter to face yet another hospital stay. The guiltiers NEVER offer up a reason WHY Sheila's prints were found on the shot gun - perhaps Nickos would like to offer an explanation why ONLY Sheila's and Nevill's prints were found?
I think you may be confusing a shotgun which Nevill usually kept under the bed with the murder weapon which did include at least one fingerprint from Jeremy.
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steve let me tell you tyler does not make mistakes she is far ahead of you or I on this case and it will pay you to take notice of her Sheila's and Nevill's prints were found on the SHOTGUN.
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I guess if Dr F had admitted that Sheila was a threat to anyone, questions would be asked about why more wasn't done to prevent the tragedy - like who sanctioned the reduced dosage in her meds. They all stick together in a crisis!!
Well I must admit that thought did cross my mind,but reading Dr. Ferguson's statements only recently and his further handwritten ones at the request of the Police I believe the doctor to have made an accurate diagnosis,which certainly did not involve Sheila perpetrating any harm whatsoever to her boys.
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I think you may be confusing a shotgun which Nevill usually kept under the bed with the murder weapon which did include at least one fingerprint from Jeremy.
No not at least. Just one. It also included one fingerprint from Sheila. I wonder how that got there?
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Well I must admit that thought did cross my mind,but reading Dr. Ferguson's statements only recently and his further handwritten ones at the request of the Police I believe the doctor to have made an accurate diagnosis,which certainly did not involve Sheila perpetrating any harm whatsoever to her boys.
And how has your own experience of dealing with people who are mentally ill led you to this conclusion?
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No not at least. Just one. It also included one fingerprint from Sheila. I wonder how that got there?
If Sheila ran amok with a gun I would have thought there would be numerous fingerprints of hers on the murder weapon. The Jeremy supporters really haven't thought this through. Far more likely a scenario is Julie's evidence that Jeremy wiped the gun after one of his gloves came off in the fight with Nevill,then when Jeremy placed the rifle in Sheila's hand(my scenario) one of her prints was left.
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If Sheila ran amok witha gun I would have thought there would be numerous fingerprints of hers on the murder weapon. The Jeremy supporters really haven't thought this through. Far more likely a scenario is Julie's evidence that Jeremy wiped the gun after one of his gloves came off in the fight with Nevill,then when Jeremy placed the rifle in Sheila's hand(my scenario) one of her prints was left.
Or more likely still that the plods obliterated most discernible fingerprints..................as you're probably aware.
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Well I must admit that thought did cross my mind,but reading Dr. Ferguson's statements only recently and his further handwritten ones at the request of the Police I believe the doctor to have made an accurate diagnosis,which certainly did not involve Sheila perpetrating any harm whatsoever to her boys.
In would still like to know how you can possibly call ACCURATE, ANYTHING save a persons age and sex, said of them 18 weeks prior to their death. Every statement would HAVE to be qualified with "On the last occasion I saw/ spoke....................."
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And how has your own experience of dealing with people who are mentally ill led you to this conclusion?
He sounds an honest person,as do many others connected with the case,unlike Jeremy's legerdemain in and out of the courtroom.
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He sounds an honest person,as do many others connected with the case,unlike Jeremy's legerdemain in and out of the courtroom.
"He sounds like an honest person................"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Soooooooo sophisticated. Soooooooooo intellectual. C'mon Steve, I know it's close to end of term but I expect better from you.
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"He sounds like an honest person................"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Soooooooo sophisticated. Soooooooooo intellectual. C'mon Steve, I know it's close to end of term but I expect better from you.
I wasn't there at trial.But that is what a trial is based upon.
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Still wondering how you think Sheila's prints got on the shotgun Steve?
Jeremy placed her fingers on the gun after the first shot. Or it could have been immediately after death.
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I wasn't there at trial.But that is what a trial is based upon.
But he didn't actually say that the last time he'd seen her was 18 weeks prior to death. That's pretty close to lying by omission in my book, especially from a professional.
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Not the rifle Steve!! The SHOTGUN??
Well do make it explicit. Jeremy had time to fix the scene as he wanted,whether it was tossing a bible onto the body,digging one of Sheila's false nails from her vanity bag into Nevill's flesh or placing her hand on the shotgun after death. He had many months to plan things out(Stage 4 of catathymic crisis)..
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Well do make it explicit. Jeremy had time to fix the scene as he wanted,whether it was tossing a bible onto the body,digging one of Sheila's false nails from her vanity bag into Nevill's flesh or placing her hand on the shotgun after death. He had many months to plan things out(Stage 4 of catathymic crisis)..
I feel quite certain that if you or I search hard enough we'll find a syndrome suffered by those who have a deep need to find evidence, however implausible, to fit ludicrous scenarios of their own making. Sadly, like all personality disorders, there's no cure :)
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Well do make it explicit. Jeremy had time to fix the scene as he wanted,whether it was tossing a bible onto the body,digging one of Sheila's false nails from her vanity bag into Nevill's flesh or placing her hand on the shotgun after death. He had many months to plan things out(Stage 4 of catathymic crisis)..
????? are you serious? He would plan all that and still make the mistake of telling his girlfriend everything and leaving a silencer in the house for the relatives to find - why on earth would he put her prints on the shotgun when it was not used in the final shootings?
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steve I think for a man who is supposed to be educated your choice of words is appalling. What is your personal problem here as I have said so many times Jeremy is serving life for murder what more do you want.
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Well do make it explicit. Jeremy had time to fix the scene as he wanted,whether it was tossing a bible onto the body,digging one of Sheila's false nails from her vanity bag into Nevill's flesh or placing her hand on the shotgun after death. He had many months to plan things out(Stage 4 of catathymic crisis)..
:-X
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If Sheila ran amok witha gun I would have thought there would be numerous fingerprints of hers on the murder weapon. The Jeremy supporters really haven't thought this through. Far more likely a scenario is Julie's evidence that Jeremy wiped the gun after one of his gloves came off in the fight with Nevill,then when Jeremy placed the rifle in Sheila's hand(my scenario) one of her prints was left.
I don't think you have either. If there were no fingerprints on the gun then it must have been the police who wiped them off. Why? Because (1) there was only one of Sheila's and one of Jeremy's. If Jeremy wanted to pin the murder on Sheila it would have been an easy matter for him to wipe his off and print hers on the gun. (2) He had been handling the gun that night and had admitted so doing. Therefore what would be the point of wiping his prints off. (3) There was one other print on the gun, that of a police officer. Just one mind. Now that points to the police as having wiped the gun of prints. Now why would they have done that you may ask? Theory: Because they had handled the gun much more than they confessed to have done. Just ponder the first and second points and give me an answer to them.
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Jeremy placed her fingers on the gun after the first shot. Or it could have been immediately after death.
What, just one and then wiping his prints off. What was the point of that? "Oh I'd better place one of Sheila's fingers on the gun. That'll convince them. ;D
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Rifle WASN'T wiped at all! There were fingerprints on it but were smeared and so couldn't be lifted. This could have been due to all the handling of rifle by EP or simply due to the gun oil on the rifle,the latter being the reason why Kurt Cobain's prints on his suicide weapon could not be identified,instead coming back as 'inconclusive'.
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I have tried and tried to get this point over to Steve but I bet it STILL not the last time he ties to peddle this myth ;D ;D ;D!!
Caroline, Steve is far more interested in what HE has to say to us than in anything we may say to him.
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Rifle WASN'T wiped at all! There were fingerprints on it but were smeared and so couldn't be lifted. This could have been due to all the handling of rifle by EP or simply due to the gun oil on the rifle,the latter being the reason why Kurt Cobain's prints on his suicide weapon could not be identified,instead coming back as 'inconclusive'.
I bet it was? If there was gun oil on it and Sheila had used it the gun oil would have been on her.
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The jury would have discussed this to
Reasons for Neville not to phone Jeremy -
Jeremy may not answer the phone. If he does it may not be for a long time. It was 3am. Jeremy himself said in the interview transcripts he slept 'like a log' that night.
Jeremy will not be over for a long time. He has to get dressed & drive over.
Neville is putting his son Jeremy in danger. Sheila has gone 'crazy' with a gun.
Neville was big, strong & had been in the army. As the head of the family his pride will make him want to resolve the situation. As Jeremy said, Neville would want to keep things private. If Jeremy knew Neville liked to keep things private, why did he phone the police ?
Jeremy & Sheila did not get on. Jeremy telling the police on the night 'I don't get on with her at all. I don't like her & she does'nt like me'. Jeremy also told the police on the night Sheila is a 'nutter'.
Jeremy has said himself that in 1985 he did not understand Sheila's illness. Neville would have known this & knew Jeremy may be insensitive in a serious situation.
Several people have testified that Jeremy hated his parents. Neville would be aware of this. Would Jeremy be bothered enough to drive over quickly, or drive over at all ? The police have testified that Jeremy was driving very slowly to WHF.
Having Jeremy there would make the situation worse. Barbara Wilson said there was often a bad atmosphere in the house when Jeremy was present.
Neville answered the phone that evening before 10am. He was apparently short & the caller said it sounded like she had interrupted an argument. Had Jeremy been upsetting people ? If so it is doubtful Nevill will ask him back over a few hours later.
Having more people in the house may make Sheila more 'crazy'.
Jeremy did not have a front door key (as far as I know). Was a 'crazy' Sheila going to let Neville answer the front door ? Or was Jeremy going to shout through the letterbox !
Jeremy was not known for being especially brave or macho. Certainly no more so than Neville. As mentioned Jeremy was seen driving very slowly to WHF.
According to Barbara Wilson, Neville knew Jeremy had broken into the caravan site & stole nearly £1,000. Neville & Jeremy's relationship at the time would have been very poor.
Jeremy claimed several years later that there was proof Neville phoned the police. The EP have never said they got a call from Neville. However if Jeremy is correct the police would be more experienced in dealing with this sort of situation. So Neville would not need to call Jeremy.
There is no time for Neville to make a phone call. Dial up phones are slow & the phone numbers in Essex are long. Jeremy may not answer for a long time.
Although Neville was proud, he was not stupid. In this serious situation if he was going to use the phone it would be to dial 999. Why ring Jeremy if the police were coming over ?
In the heat of the moment it is doubtful Neville will think 'let me phone Jeremy who will sort everything out'.
Jeremy had worked a long day at the farm. Tomorrow would be another long day. Neville knew Jeremy needed his rest.
Neville & Sheila got on well. If Neville could not contain her, Jeremy certainly could not.
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Good morning Susan.
You said yesterday you had not read this post. Although at the time you responded to it. Anyway I have put it up again.
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Adam so kind of you and considerate to put up your posts a second time for me. Must go to a dark room and rest ;D ;D ;D
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Adam and by the way I did respond to you yesterday about your post and said they had such a profound effect on me I could not rememeber reading them or indeed responding ;D ;D ;D
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Good morning Susan.
You said yesterday you had not read this post. Although at the time you responded to it. Anyway I have put it up again.
That's a relief. I thought you had a stammer? ;D
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Morning Grahame HaHaHa no Adam does repeats like the BBC I am so lucky to be the special one getting his posts twice ;D ;D ;D
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????? are you serious? He would plan all that and still make the mistake of telling his girlfriend everything and leaving a silencer in the house for the relatives to find - why on earth would he put her prints on the shotgun when it was not used in the final shootings?
There is evidence from the Andrew Hunter book draft that more than one weapon was used. Jeremy had very little experience of the psychology of girls,and considered that he had done enough with the Osea Road robbery and the telephone calls to tie Julie in as an accessory.
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steve I think for a man who is supposed to be educated your choice of words is appalling. What is your personal problem here as I have said so many times Jeremy is serving life for murder what more do you want.
Justice for Colin for one thing who has the right to know the truth. As does Julie.
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I don't think you have either. If there were no fingerprints on the gun then it must have been the police who wiped them off. Why? Because (1) there was only one of Sheila's and one of Jeremy's. If Jeremy wanted to pin the murder on Sheila it would have been an easy matter for him to wipe his off and print hers on the gun. (2) He had been handling the gun that night and had admitted so doing. Therefore what would be the point of wiping his prints off. (3) There was one other print on the gun, that of a police officer. Just one mind. Now that points to the police as having wiped the gun of prints. Now why would they have done that you may ask? Theory: Because they had handled the gun much more than they confessed to have done. Just ponder the first and second points and give me an answer to them.
Well you're ignoring the fact that had Sheila shot the twins,then Sheila,then stood over Nevill in the kitchen threatening him with a gun and forcing him to end the call to Jeremy (a Scott Lomax theory but I digress)not to mention the fight for the control of the rifle Sheila's prints should be all over the gun,as should Jeremy's if he had been out shooting rabbits. If the Police wanted to wipe the gun then why didn't they wipe all the smudged prints off when it was in their possession and put themselves in the clear?
The most likely scenario is that Jeremy panicked when the glove came off in the fight with Nevill(Julie's story),being under the influence of cannabis and cocaine(my theory)not being able to work out just where his prints had made an indenture in the confusion of the night and so had to wipe everything off so that Nevill's prints didn't obfuscate his scenario and he could then ensure that Sheila's at least were left as he ascended the staircase from the kitchen to the vicinity of her bedroom..
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How is Andrew Hunter's book evidence? Just because someone says something, it doesn't make it evidence!! Errm - what is 'the psychology of girls' please enlighten us with your obvious expertise on this little known phenomenon??
His ballistics evidence is worth reading about the bullets which I for one found informative for someone who is not conversant in this area of expertise. I do know a little about the psychology of girls and they can be more devious than teenage boys and a lot harder to read.
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The gun wasn't wiped (for the 50th time) and why would the police want to wipe off 'smudged' prints?? Why were Sheila and Nevill's prints on the shot gun? According to you, he wipes the rifle but misses a couple of clear prints of his own and engineer's a print of Sheila's. Then (in his coke and cannabis induced stupor) he gets the shot gun and engineers a couple of prints from both Sheila and Nevill but leaves none of his own? What part of the grand plan did this fall under? ;D ;D
I think you're confusing two guns: the alleged one left on the settle and the one under Nevill's bed. Maybe Mike can clarify.
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His ballistics evidence is worth reading about the bullets which I for one found informative for someone who is not conversant in this area of expertise. I do know a little about the psychology of girls and they can be more devious than teenage boys and a lot harder to read.
Did the Hunter book make you question the prosecution case , Steve ?
I agree that he clarifies the ballistics evidence so well that you are left with the inescapable conclusion that the ballistics as presented by the prosecution is a fiction . No offence to Mike, who has written extensively and informatively on the ballistics, but I never really got a grip on it until reading Hunter's draft.
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Did the Hunter book make you question the prosecution case , Steve ?
I agree that he clarifies the ballistics evidence so well that you are left with the inescapable conclusion that the ballistics as presented by the prosecution is a fiction . No offence to Mike, who has written extensively and informatively on the ballistics, but I never really got a grip on it until reading Hunter's draft.
Well as I have said before Mike has done a good job with the silencer evidence,which is not to say that the other pillars of the case don't hold up. I don't know what the issue is with Sheila's fingerprints or lack of them on any weapon:we're just going round in circles again.
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Well as I have said before Mike has done a good job with the silencer evidence,which is not to say that the other pillars of the case don't hold up. I don't know what the issue is with Sheila's fingerprints or lack of them on any weapon:we're just going round in circles again.
Do you think that it is likely, from reading the ballistics evidence, that more than one gun was used ?
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Do you think that it is likely, from reading the ballistics evidence, that more than one gun was used ?
It looks like it,because how else would Nevill and June have both 1/2 and 1/4inch bullet holes present in their bodies?http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2441.0.html
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If Sheila was planning to commit suicide, there is no reason to stop Neville making a call. By the time the police arrive, everyone would be dead.
EXACTLY!
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It looks like it,because how else would Nevill and June have both 1/2 and 1/4inch bullet holes present in their bodies?http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2441.0.html
Doesn't this cast doubt on the rest of the case in your opinion?
Once you accept that it is not a one gun crime then surely the rest of the prosecution case melts away .
So much of the prosecution case relies on the killings being a one gun crime that once you accept there was more than one gun used that night the prosecution falls apart . It also gives a more sinister twist to Antony Pargeter's contradictory statements regarding the whereabouts of his own rifle that night . It certainly at least hints towards collusion between AP and EP to be able to present the one gun crime scenario upon which they relied in court .
Does the fabricated ballistic evidence not raise further and disturbing questions to challenge your views on the case ?
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Adam the bedroom phone was not upstairs it was downstairs. Keep up ;D
Adam never said the bedroom phone was upstairs - he has repeatedly stated the bedroom phone was in the kitchen. He responded to another person saying "IF the bedroom phone was upstairs, then...", Key Word IF. Learn to read already.
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Adam never said the bedroom phone was upstairs - he has repeatedly stated the bedroom phone was in the kitchen. He responded to another person saying "IF the bedroom phone was upstairs, then...", Key Word IF. Learn to read already.
EXACTLY!
Caroline has already pointed out to you how ill informed your earlier shouting was.
However, unperturbed by the fact that the applying of reasoning and planning skills to someone having a psychotic episode, is not only ill informed but also exposes your own lack of reasoning skills , you then go on to be rude to yet another poster who has earned somewhat more respect on here than you .
I looked through your 12 postings on this forum and really ought to congratulate you on demonstrating in such short order that you are rude, ill informed, lacking in basic reasoning skills, condescending and have nothing to add or say about the case .
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Doesn't this cast doubt on the rest of the case in your opinion?
Once you accept that it is not a one gun crime then surely the rest of the prosecution case melts away .
So much of the prosecution case relies on the killings being a one gun crime that once you accept there was more than one gun used that night the prosecution falls apart . It also gives a more sinister twist to Antony Pargeter's contradictory statements regarding the whereabouts of his own rifle that night . It certainly at least hints towards collusion between AP and EP to be able to present the one gun crime scenario upon which they relied in court .
Does the fabricated ballistic evidence not raise further and disturbing questions to challenge your views on the case ?
One of the clearest posts ever put up. It is the reason why I have never been able to incorporate the postings of Hartley, Bridget & Vic. This is almost 'Bamber in a nutshell'. It (meaning the prosecution's case) is baloney. You cannot have altered ballistics evidence alongside a guilty Bamber. The two things are completely incompatible.
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One of the clearest posts ever put up. It is the reason why I have never been able to incorporate the postings of Hartley, Bridget & Vic. This is almost 'Bamber in a nutshell'. It (meaning the prosecution's case) is baloney. You cannot have altered ballistics evidence alongside a guilty Bamber. The two things are completely incompatible.
The idea that Hunter would falsely build an argument that the ballistics has been tampered with is a ludicrous proposition.
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What would be the point of him getting there first?
Arriving first would have meant he sped like a bat out of hell to get to the farm because he loved his family and wanted to stop whatever was happening to protect his family
Driving under the speed limit proved he did not care if nutty sister shoot everybody to death
Driving under the speed limit proved Jeremy knew the family was already dead - hence no reason to speed
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Reality Check - What evidence is there to free JB? Answers on a very small postcard!
LOL!
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Many of the points raised here were answered by Mike's imput
LMFAO - ?ROFL - ?ROFLMAO - ?LOL Thanks for the laugh!
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One of the clearest posts ever put up. It is the reason why I have never been able to incorporate the postings of Hartley, Bridget & Vic. This is almost 'Bamber in a nutshell'. It (meaning the prosecution's case) is baloney. You cannot have altered ballistics evidence alongside a guilty Bamber. The two things are completely incompatible.
I am surprised that Steve admitted what he did regarding the ballistics . Usually the guilters have nothing to say on these matters realising that the pretence of a one gun crime is essential to maintain a credible belief in JB's guilt.
How many times have we been told that one of the biggest problems with the innocent side is to explain the lack of residue on Sheila's hands in having to reload at least twice ? In fact I am sure that Steve has raised this as a problem himself(often) before but he has now solved the mystery of a lack of residue on Sheila's hands all on his own if he just cares to joins the dots. We cannot now know if Sheila had to reload at all although the evidence, that Steve now lends such weight to, would suggest that no reloading was required.
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Arriving first would have meant he sped like a bat out of hell to get to the farm because he loved his family and wanted to stop whatever was happening to protect his family
Driving under the speed limit proved he did not care if nutty sister shoot everybody to death
Driving under the speed limit proved Jeremy knew the family was already dead - hence no reason to speed
Your last three postings prove what I previously pointed out about you ::) ::) ::)
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I'm surprised!! Sheila's prints weren't just on the rifle, they were also on one of Nevill's shot guns!!
Well as I have said before Mike has done a good job with the silencer evidence,which is not to say that the other pillars of the case don't hold up. I don't know what the issue is with Sheila's fingerprints or lack of them on any weapon:we're just going round in circles again.
As you accept that it was not a one gun crime and base this on different size entry wounds , how do you not understand the relevance of Sheila's fingerprints on Nevill's shotgun?
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Morning steve Julie knows the truth she stood up in a Court of Law and told it ;D so are you saying now she did/does not know the truth of who murdered the family at WHF.
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LMFAO - ?ROFL - ?ROFLMAO - ?LOL Thanks for the laugh!
Idiot !
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Morning steve Julie knows the truth she stood up in a Court of Law and told it ;D so are you saying now she did/does not know the truth of who murdered the family at WHF.
Susan, good morning :) There really is much value in waiting until morning to answer certain posts, isn't there? Yet again, we have Steve, self styled, quintessential expert on just about EVERYTHING concerned with Jeremy's supposed guilt, the purveyor of the truth, the whole truth and NOTHING like the truth, but make it up as you go, coz they're all so thick and I'm so clever they'll never know, _UK, tripping himself up because several of us ARE bright enough to see that much of the time he's talking, if not out of desperation to exonerate beloved Julie, that sweet virginal girl who existed only in his imagination, OUT OF HIS NETHER REGIONS, but at last has admitted that as she deserves to know the truth, it clearly evaded her, and therefore could not have issued forth from her mouth, whilst she was in the witness box.
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Morning april think steve has spent too much time on the treadmill ;D
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Morning steve Julie knows the truth she stood up in a Court of Law and told it ;D so are you saying now she did/does not know the truth of who murdered the family at WHF.
Morning Susan,,wasn't this part of the idea that JM visited the mortuary,,so that she could " speak to Sheila and ask her what went on ?" Because if the truth was known,JM DID NOT know what went on at all.
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Morning Susan,,wasn't this part of the idea that JM visited the mortuary,,so that she could " speak to Sheila and ask her what went on ?" Because if the truth was known,JM DID NOT know what went on at all.
YES SHE DID, Lookout, coz Jeremy had spent the last year telling her..........................coz she SAID he did :D
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YES SHE DID, Lookout, coz Jeremy had spent the last year telling her..........................coz she SAID he did :D
Mmmmmm,April. ::) I forgot ( koff )
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Morning lookout
sadly you are right Julie IMO was prompted and coerced into testifying against Jeremy obviously the carrots offered her i.e. no criminal charges and a newspaper deal were a great incentive and she was putty in the hands of Stan the Man and maybe she half convinced herself she was speaking the truth. Now years on she would be interested to know the truth :'( steve's words not mine) ;D
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Morning lookout
sadly you are right Julie IMO was prompted and coerced into testifying against Jeremy obviously the carrots offered her i.e. no criminal charges and a newspaper deal were a great incentive and she was putty in the hands of Stan the Man and maybe she half convinced herself she was speaking the truth. Now years on she would be interested to know the truth :'( steve's words not mine) ;D
That woman wouldn't know the truth if it hit her in the eye,Susan. Nor the rellies,either. :o
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lookout think people have the ability to believe what suits them and they convince themselves theirs is the truth. As far as Julie is concerned she knew her truth was not the truth and shame on her for being part of sending an innocent young man to prison for life she must have no soul and is so wrapped up in herself she could not see further than the consequences she may have had to deal with i.e. a criminal record. Stan the Man did a good job :'(
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lookout think people have the ability to believe what suits them and they convince themselves theirs is the truth. As far as Julie is concerned she knew her truth was not the truth and shame on her for being part of sending an innocent young man to prison for life she must have no soul and is so wrapped up in herself she could not see further than the consequences she may have had to deal with i.e. a criminal record. Stan the Man did a good job :'(
Susan,,it takes a very hard-hearted,completely void of emotion person to do as JM did. Every trick in the book was carried out to avoid her having any sort of a black mark against her name,given the career that she had chosen,,with " a little help " from the perjures themselves,aiding and abetting.
No doubt the " arrangement " was soon passed on to all the rellies who then jumped on the bandwagon at the thought of a financial gain for them as well.
I really can't think of a worse,underhanded way of pinning blame on someone for a crime he didn't do.
I have a very low opinion of headworkers.
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lookout people know within themselves what they were guilty of in their part of sending Jeremy to prison for life. I suspect they may not be as comfortable and confident now and will be living in fear what is going to happen in the future regarding the release of Jeremy Bamber and the effect it will have on them.
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lookout people know within themselves what they were guilty of in their part of sending Jeremy to prison for life. I suspect they may not be as comfortable and confident now and will be living in fear what is going to happen in the future regarding the release of Jeremy Bamber and the effect it will have on them.
Susan,,you mentioned not being as comfortable. How right you are,because comparing videos' of Jeremy,DB and BW the other week,,I'd have said that the latter were pretty uncomfortable in comparison.
Their fear of him being release has more to do with their financial situation/outlook,rather than any fear of a " reprisal ".
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I'm surprised!! Sheila's prints weren't just on the rifle, they were also on one of Nevill's shot guns!!
I wonder if when Ralph phoned Jeremy and said that Sheila had got the gun he was referring to the shotgun which he managed to wrestle from her? Just a wild thought that's all.
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I wonder if when Ralph phoned Jeremy and said that Sheila had got the gun he was referring to the shotgun which he managed to wrestle from her? Just a wild thought that's all.
Not a wild thought at all Grahame. It could be nearer the truth than you imagine.
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Morning lookout
sadly you are right Julie IMO was prompted and coerced into testifying against Jeremy obviously the carrots offered her i.e. no criminal charges and a newspaper deal were a great incentive and she was putty in the hands of Stan the Man and maybe she half convinced herself she was speaking the truth. Now years on she would be interested to know the truth :'( steve's words not mine) ;D
She was obviously coached. Just look at the price hanging over her head. The police were in charge of the helm.
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Hi Grahame/lookout I think you could be right about the shotgun.
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I think you should change you name to 'Simplesimon' LOL, ROLF, LMFAO, ROFLMFAO ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
;D
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Hi Grahame/lookout I think you could be right about the shotgun.
I actually think that Sheila realised that it would be a greater sound coming from a shotgun ?,,hence her having held it before changing her mind,,though it would have appeared as though it had been fired at some point. I'm not conversant at all with either shotgun or rifle,but because that first injury to Sheilas' neck was not a whole bullet,,could it have been ammunition fired from a shotgun,,which Sheila originally had hold of ?
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I actually think that Sheila realised that it would be a greater sound coming from a shotgun ?,,hence her having held it before changing her mind,,though it would have appeared as though it had been fired at some point. I'm not conversant at all with either shotgun or rifle,but because that first injury to Sheilas' neck was not a whole bullet,,could it have been ammunition fired from a shotgun,,which Sheila originally had hold of ?
If Sheila had used a shotgun on herself I think it would have blown her head off? The shotgun was not used in the house, as there would have been some evidence in the shape of.....er shotgun marks on the walls/ceilings etc. Perhaps Ralph used it outside for some reason?
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;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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How's this for coincidence:-
Simple MACHINES
-"- MINDS
-"- SIEMON (Sic)
Steve UK's Post #51, re Quote by Martin in 'Off Topic' quote in Starryian......., 1/2way down:-
"What a complete MOBY you are"- which in Cockney Rhyming Slang (CRS) indicates MOBY DICK, the whale and ergo means in derogatory fashion ""YOU PRICK"", Sir Simeon (Idiot), whoever you are?
Compare this with a vverse in a vversion of Simple Simon(from Honda site) :-
"Simple Simon went a'fishing, for to catch a WHALE,
All the water he had got, was in his Mother's pail"
-And now poor (ie no money) Simple Simeon bids us all ADIEU. Sooooo 2's up (VV) Sunbeam!!
" THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS, EVER" -MRDavies.
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If Sheila had used a shotgun on herself I think it would have blown her head off? The shotgun was not used in the house, as there would have been some evidence in the shape of.....er shotgun marks on the walls/ceilings etc. Perhaps Ralph used it outside for some reason?
Morning Grahame , it is quite likely that the shotgun was used and there is evidence to support this scenario. Different size entry wounds on the victims indicate most strongly that more than one type of ammunition was used that night. Sheila's prints on the shotgun show that she handled it at some stage and the evidence trail of the ballistics evidence shows quite clearly that EP switched crime scene ammunition.
Steve UK foolishly admitted last night that after reading Hunter he now accepts that the premise of the one gun crime scenario to be false. I don't think he has thought through what the consequences of this admission are to the credibility of the prosecution case .
As for there being no evidence of a shotgun being used, you can be sure that if EP had needed the shotgun to have been used to implicate JB then there would have been evidence to show this. To find prints on the shotgun indicates that police thought it's use likely or why test it in the first place ?
I would like to see the ballistics evidence used for SC/688/85 when it was regarded as suicide plus four murders because it cannot be the same as that later presented.
There is a reason the ballistics evidence was destroyed by EP in 1996.
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Morning Grahame , it is quite likely that the shotgun was used and there is evidence to support this scenario. Different size entry wounds on the victims indicate most strongly that more than one type of ammunition was used that night. Sheila's prints on the shotgun show that she handled it at some stage and the evidence trail of the ballistics evidence shows quite clearly that EP switched crime scene ammunition.
Steve UK foolishly admitted last night that after reading Hunter he now accepts that the premise of the one gun crime scenario to be false. I don't think he has thought through what the consequences of this admission are to the credibility of the prosecution case .
As for there being no evidence of a shotgun being used, you can be sure that if EP had needed the shotgun to have been used to implicate JB then there would have been evidence to show this. To find prints on the shotgun indicates that police thought it's use likely or why test it in the first place ?
I would like to see the ballistics evidence used for SC/688/85 when it was regarded as suicide plus four murders because it cannot be the same as that later presented.
There is a reason the ballistics evidence was destroyed by EP in 1996.
Hi Gringo. It does appear that the police were very selective about which pieces of evidence they destroyed in 1996? And by destroying the evidence it is an indication in my view at any rate that, that evidence was somehow incriminating towards the police?
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You're a lying piece of shit
Now, now, SirSimeon...
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Doesn't this cast doubt on the rest of the case in your opinion?
Once you accept that it is not a one gun crime then surely the rest of the prosecution case melts away .
So much of the prosecution case relies on the killings being a one gun crime that once you accept there was more than one gun used that night the prosecution falls apart . It also gives a more sinister twist to Antony Pargeter's contradictory statements regarding the whereabouts of his own rifle that night . It certainly at least hints towards collusion between AP and EP to be able to present the one gun crime scenario upon which they relied in court .
Does the fabricated ballistic evidence not raise further and disturbing questions to challenge your views on the case ?
I don't see how the prosecution case falls apart if there were more than one gun used. Jeremy probably entered by the downstairs cloakroom as he had done many times before in the past,thereby passing an array of weapons. The reported hearing of a shot fired in the vicinity of White House Farm around 11:30pm cannot be tied to an exhausted Sheila climbing the stairs to bed.
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So an "exhausted Sheila " couldn't muster up the energy to have quickly rang the police as a " threatening Jeremy " entered the farmhouse ? The phone then was upstairs,remember.
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I am surprised that Steve admitted what he did regarding the ballistics . Usually the guilters have nothing to say on these matters realising that the pretence of a one gun crime is essential to maintain a credible belief in JB's guilt.
How many times have we been told that one of the biggest problems with the innocent side is to explain the lack of residue on Sheila's hands in having to reload at least twice ? In fact I am sure that Steve has raised this as a problem himself(often) before but he has now solved the mystery of a lack of residue on Sheila's hands all on his own if he just cares to joins the dots. We cannot now know if Sheila had to reload at all although the evidence, that Steve now lends such weight to, would suggest that no reloading was required.
But there were 25 shots fired,so even with two guns she has to reload. You've got to explain the blood spatter on the nightie,and so many other unlikely events discussed many times before:the ammunition left out with small children in the house,Nevill's cordless telephone probably tampered with by Jeremy,the removal of the bedroom telephone,the removal of the sights when they would have assisted the shooting of rabbits..
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Morning lookout
sadly you are right Julie IMO was prompted and coerced into testifying against Jeremy obviously the carrots offered her i.e. no criminal charges and a newspaper deal were a great incentive and she was putty in the hands of Stan the Man and maybe she half convinced herself she was speaking the truth. Now years on she would be interested to know the truth :'( steve's words not mine) ;D
Jeremy never confessed,which would totally absolve Julie from the latest vitriol here and set Colin's mind at rest. As the Christmas season is upon us I think this is a task for a religious man,a man of the cloth..
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whose job has been made doubly difficult by Jeremy witnessing first hand how religion affected the lives of his mother and sister.
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As you accept that it was not a one gun crime and base this on different size entry wounds , how do you not understand the relevance of Sheila's fingerprints on Nevill's shotgun?
Because the Prosecution scenario is that Jeremy staged the scene to suit his own ends.
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Jeremy never confessed,which would totally absolve Julie from the latest vitriol here and set Colin's mind at rest. As the Christmas season is upon us I think this is a task for a religious man,a man of the cloth..
Why would he need to Steve? According to Julie, she'd known Just what he had planned for the best part of a year. She must have been sick of hearing it. Might her take on it have been something like implicitly suggesting that he go for what ever it was he was telling her he was planning, kind of like, if we get sick of arguing a point with you, we may say "Yeah Yeah Steve, whatever you say."
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Because the Prosecution scenario is that Jeremy staged the scene to suit his own ends.
No NO Steve!!! That's you bending all evidence and testimony to suit your needs!!!
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I just think that Jeremy was so immature back then that he said things,for the sake of it, to see what sort of a reaction he got.
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I just think that Jeremy was so immature back then that he said things,for the sake of it, to see what sort of a reaction he got.
I'm also sure that if anyone shouted " boo " to him,that he'd jump out of his skin. I think that his flings with older women made him feel more of a man. Then again,it usually indicates that they're looking for a " motherly " figure. Although when the tragedy occurred,he had little choice but to phone JM,as at that juncture, he had no-one else.
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I just think that Jeremy was so immature back then that he said things,for the sake of it, to see what sort of a reaction he got.
Lookout. show off that I feel certain he was, I feel equally certain that the thought his rather, at times, crude behaviour, would impress others. It probably impressed him.
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Morning Grahame , it is quite likely that the shotgun was used and there is evidence to support this scenario. Different size entry wounds on the victims indicate most strongly that more than one type of ammunition was used that night. Sheila's prints on the shotgun show that she handled it at some stage and the evidence trail of the ballistics evidence shows quite clearly that EP switched crime scene ammunition.
Steve UK foolishly admitted last night that after reading Hunter he now accepts that the premise of the one gun crime scenario to be false. I don't think he has thought through what the consequences of this admission are to the credibility of the prosecution case .
As for there being no evidence of a shotgun being used, you can be sure that if EP had needed the shotgun to have been used to implicate JB then there would have been evidence to show this. To find prints on the shotgun indicates that police thought it's use likely or why test it in the first place ?
I would like to see the ballistics evidence used for SC/688/85 when it was regarded as suicide plus four murders because it cannot be the same as that later presented.
There is a reason the ballistics evidence was destroyed by EP in 1996.
I was probably one of the first to read Hunter,but as Caroline stated in a recent post it's not gospel just because he was an MP,though one would assume that you had your facts right before you stood up in the House of Commons. It was the anschutz which was found lying atop Sheila's body and the anschutz which had been left loaded the night before around the settle area and I can't see what material difference a second gun makes if you believe that Jeremy was plotting to kill his family for almost a year..
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steve I think Julie is more in need of a man of the cloth for her to confess her sins of sending an innocent man to prison for a crime she knew he did not commit. She sold her soul for £25.000 and all criminal charges against her dropped and actually left the Court smiling knowing 5 people had lost their lives for her to achieve what she did.
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Lookout. show off that I feel certain he was, I feel equally certain that the thought his rather, at times, crude behaviour, would impress others. It probably impressed him.
Yes,he was a show-off,April,,which would have indicated immaturity. All done to impress,,or try to,,but at the same time,a harmless individual.
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I'm also sure that if anyone shouted " boo " to him,that he'd jump out of his skin. I think that his flings with older women made him feel more of a man. Then again,it usually indicates that they're looking for a " motherly " figure. Although when the tragedy occurred,he had little choice but to phone JM,as at that juncture, he had no-one else.
I agree with the first part,but why did he say "all is going well" in telephone call number 2..
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steve I think Julie is more in need of a man of the cloth for her to confess her sins of sending an innocent man to prison for a crime she knew he did not commit. She sold her soul for £25.000 and all criminal charges against her dropped and actually left the Court smiling knowing 5 people had lost their lives for her to achieve what she did.
Jeremy had an even bigger deal with a newspaper. Jeremy knew 5 members of his adopted family had lost their lives at, according to his version of events, the hand of his unwell sister.
Yet Jeremy was prepared to sell the memory of all their innocent and lost lives for his own self gratifying profit.
What excuses could be made for such possible character traits?
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I actually think that Sheila realised that it would be a greater sound coming from a shotgun ?,,hence her having held it before changing her mind,,though it would have appeared as though it had been fired at some point. I'm not conversant at all with either shotgun or rifle,but because that first injury to Sheilas' neck was not a whole bullet,,could it have been ammunition fired from a shotgun,,which Sheila originally had hold of ?
I think people on this site should wise up about schizophrenia,get past the connotations of that word and stop associating things nigh on impossible for an individual with this condition in a state of psychosis to have engendered.
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I agree with the first part,but why did he say "all is going well" in telephone call number 2..
Of course the is only Julie to confirm that those were the exact words spoken.
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I think people on this site should wise up about schizophrenia,get past the connotations of that word and stop associating things nigh on impossible for an individual with this condition in a state of psychosis to have engendered.
Ever the smart-a**e with the overblown sense of his own superiority, eh Steve?
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Why would he need to Steve? According to Julie, she'd known Just what he had planned for the best part of a year. She must have been sick of hearing it. Might her take on it have been something like implicitly suggesting that he go for what ever it was he was telling her he was planning, kind of like, if we get sick of arguing a point with you, we may say "Yeah Yeah Steve, whatever you say."
Julie may not have thought him capable of the crime,a position many on this forum take,yet for which Julie has been heinously vilified.
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Julie may not have thought him capable of the crime,a position many on this forum take,yet for which Julie has been heinously vilified.
But then WE hadn't spent a whole year listening to him plan it, SHE according to her, HAD.
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curiousessex I am not for one moment saying Jeremy was whiter than white. IMO he was not guilty of murdering his family and had never confessed that he had to Julie. IMO JUlie was going to benefit by having all criminal charges against dropped and she sold a story which IMO was far from true Jeremy Bamber would have sold his story of what actually happened do I think this was right of course I don't . I don't think it is morally right for anyone to profit by selling details to a newspaper of a tragedy such as the WHF murders. Unfortunatey this is going on all the time and I think for any family to sell a story to a newspaper to profit from their deaths is beyond words I cannot describe. I certainly don't think it was appropriate for a young lady to come out of a Court room where the love of her life and be sent to prison for life for murdering his family actually posing and smiling flashing a leg she should have acted with some decorum and quietly left the scene.
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But then WE hadn't spent a whole year listening to him plan it, SHE according to her, HAD.
Julie was really in a no win situation. An ordinary girl who had been thrust into the limelight. Given what has just been said by Nigella Lawson in relation to being a witness in a high profile Crown Court hearing Julie still managed to stand before the court for examination and cross examination by professional who were representing Jeremy on a very serious charge. They would not have given Julie an easy ride..... no mercies or considerations are given when in court.
Naturally the same applied to Jeremy when under examination and cross examination. In such circumstances Jeremy is still able to offer the reply 'That is what you have got to prove'. Hardly the character traits of a weak, vulnerable, ignorant, misinformed young man. In my opinion a possible insight into a character which is hard, cold, unnerved and without empathy.
Jeremy knew if the case was not proven then he had a very big exclusive newspaper deal to look forward to.
In the end having heard the evidence before them the jury decided the case against Jeremy had been proven.
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Jeremy had an even bigger deal with a newspaper. Jeremy knew 5 members of his adopted family had lost their lives at, according to his version of events, the hand of his unwell sister.
Yet Jeremy was prepared to sell the memory of all their innocent and lost lives for his own self gratifying profit.
What excuses could be made for such possible character traits?
Yet I cannot figure out why a guilty Jeremy would enter in to such a deal. Curious, it may be worth watching 'The money trail' video. I don't think Jeremy's cousins come out whiter than white either.
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Julie was really in a no win situation. An ordinary girl who had been thrust into the limelight. Given what has just been said by Nigella Lawson in relation to being a witness in a high profile Crown Court hearing Julie still managed to stand before the court for examination and cross examination by professional who were representing Jeremy on a very serious charge. They would not have given Julie an easy ride..... no mercies or considerations are given when in court.
Naturally the same applied to Jeremy when under examination and cross examination. In such circumstances Jeremy is still able to offer the reply 'That is what you have got to prove'. Hardly the character traits of a weak, vulnerable, ignorant, misinformed young man. In my opinion a possible insight into a character which is hard, cold, unnerving and without empathy.
Jeremy knew if the case was not proven then he had a very big exclusive newspaper deal to look forward to.
In the end having heard the evidence before them the jury decided the case against Jeremy had been proven.
Here's where we differ. When Jeremy says those words, I see a product of his upbringing. I hear words that his father may have recounted to him on the occasions he talked about what he did in Magistrate's Court. I hear the confidence of the innocent BUT I also hear FEAR. He's standing entirely alone. His entire family has gone. His wider family have revealed what they've been hiding all their life and his ex girlfriend has sold HIS life to save HER career. I see a man shaking in his shoes but he's damned if he'll let anyone know.
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Hello curiousessex I have been given to believe that the Defence had difficulty questioning Miss Julie due to her hysterical sobbing she seemed to recover for the prosecuation. Jeremy Bamber in my opinion was quite an immature arrogant young man who had been brought up in such away he felt quite superior to others he did himself no favours in Court that is for sure but as I have said earlier this did not make him a mass murderer.
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I agree with the first part,but why did he say "all is going well" in telephone call number 2..
We don't know for sure that he did say what he was alleged to have said,Steve.
If you're referring to the phone-box call,,then it's obvious that Jeremy didn't realise the full extent of the tragedy and may have referred to the police involving their findings at that particular time. Was it when the police seemed to want Jeremy out of the way ?
Steve,,you have to remember that five of his family were in the mortuary,,so why do you think Jeremy didn't want to go inside ?
If he'd have murdered them all,,he'd have already seen that they were dead,,so what difference would it have made ? Except it would have probably been more fuel for the guilters if he had have gone inside,,they'd have said he didn't turn a hair,,whereas,if the truth was known,Jeremy had NEVER seen a dead body and didn't wish to do so,,least of all his family.
It didn't bother " Hard-Hearted-Hannah though,did it ?
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Here's where we differ. When Jeremy says those words, I see a product of his upbringing. I hear words that his father may have recounted to him on the occasions he talked about what he did in Magistrate's Court. I hear the confidence of the innocent BUT I also hear FEAR. He's standing entirely alone. His entire family has gone. His wider family have revealed what they've been hiding all their life and his ex girlfriend has sold HIS life to save HER career. I see a man shaking in his shoes but he's damned if he'll let anyone know.
I thought this was a young man who began to live life with a devil-may-care attitude including sexual encounters,and who finally realized he had been rumbled by people smarter than himself.
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Julie was really in a no win situation. An ordinary girl who had been thrust into the limelight. Given what has just been said by Nigella Lawson in relation to being a witness in a high profile Crown Court hearing Julie still managed to stand before the court for examination and cross examination by professional who were representing Jeremy on a very serious charge. They would not have given Julie an easy ride..... no mercies or considerations are given when in court.
Naturally the same applied to Jeremy when under examination and cross examination. In such circumstances Jeremy is still able to offer the reply 'That is what you have got to prove'. Hardly the character traits of a weak, vulnerable, ignorant, misinformed young man. In my opinion a possible insight into a character which is hard, cold, unnerved and without empathy.
Jeremy knew if the case was not proven then he had a very big exclusive newspaper deal to look forward to.
In the end having heard the evidence before them the jury decided the case against Jeremy had been proven.
Hi curious your portrayal of Jeremy's personality implies that you believe him to be a psychopathic/sociopathic kind of personality and I agree for Jeremy Bamber to have carried out the crime he was found guilty of he would need to have at least some type of personality disorder. We hit a problem though when we read that JB has never shown a sign of any personality disorder or mental illness, in fact he emotes more easily than many people who are classed as normal so I can only conclude that appearances can sometimes be deceptive.
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Yet I cannot figure out why a guilty Jeremy would enter in to such a deal. Curious, it may be worth watching 'The money trail' video. I don't think Jeremy's cousins come out whiter than white either.
I have seen the money trail video.
I do not condone what happened post Jeremy being found guilty. These are post event events and would never have occurred had the killings not happened.
The money trail video does not alter the fact Jeremy is the first person in the whole world to know something has happened a White House Farm. How does Jeremy know?
If you believe Nevill rang Jeremy then you believe Jeremy and his version of events whilst also allowing him leeway in getting the credibilities of his rstory incorrect.
If you believe the credibilities of his story regarding the alleged telephone calls are incorrect then in my opinion you need to start asking questions regarding Jeremy's self proclaimed innocence.
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I thought this was a young man who began to live life with a devil-may-care attitude including sexual encounters,and who finally realized he had been rumbled by people smarter than himself.
He was a young man from a "comfortable " background who could afford to live a devil-may-care life. I really don't see what you have against this when one thinks of the escapades some young get up to at university. His lifestyle was no different from sons of my friends. They tend NOT to marry young and hopefully sow enough wild oats pre marriage to satisfy that craving and settle down in their late 20's.
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I thought this was a young man who began to live life with a devil-may-care attitude including sexual encounters,and who finally realized he had been rumbled by people smarter than himself.
Yes,,this is how Jeremy lived his life,Steve,,but unfortunately he wasn't up to speed when it came to the fact that his devil-may-care attitude could come to a stop,not by people who were smarter than he,,but by the craft and cunning of those who he thought were members of his family as well as being his friends who were on his side. As sure as Hell,he'll have learned a lot about people now.
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april quite right I have many young farmers from comfortable backgrouds in my area and this is exactly what they do sow wild oats all over Scotland then marry when they are maybe 30 have children then the cycle starts again. This is the way they are brought up.
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Hi curious your portrayal of Jeremy's personality implies that you believe him to be a psychopathic/sociopathic kind of personality and I agree for Jeremy Bamber to have carried out the crime he was found guilty of he would need to have at least some type of personality disorder. We hit a problem though when we read that JB has never shown a sign of any personality disorder or mental illness, in fact he emotes more easily than many people who are classed as normal so I can only conclude that appearances can sometimes be deceptive.
That may be the case but I am not qualified to say one way or another.
However, it is the case that all psychopathic / sociopathic individuals remain undiagnosed as such until the time as they have been diagnosed. Surely they do not suddenly become psychopathic / sociopathic but have always been so but have remained undiagnosed.
Given the problem what has emoting got to do with psychopathic / sociopathic tendencies?
A question .... would Adolf Hitler (a man who emoted so well a whole nation where inspired by him and elected him to power by the democratic vote) be classed as a psychopath / sociopath?
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I have seen the money trail video.
I do not condone what happened post Jeremy being found guilty. These are post event events and would never have occurred had the killings not happened.
The money trail video does not alter the fact Jeremy is the first person in the whole world to know something has happened a White House Farm. How does Jeremy know?
If you believe Nevill rang Jeremy then you believe Jeremy and his version of events whilst also allowing him leeway in getting the credibilities of his rstory incorrect.
If you believe the credibilities of his story regarding the alleged telephone calls are incorrect then in my opinion you need to start asking questions regarding Jeremy's self proclaimed innocence.
I can see your approach and can remember your take on the case from previous postings. I think what you regard as inaccurate, others might regard as adulterated to fit a purpose. Surely Jeremy Bamber cannot alter the pathologist's findings re blood on Sheila's palms or there having been no rifle on the body before it is on the body, as per the observations of raid team member etc. Jeremy Bamber puts nevill's and Sheila's fingerprints on the shotgun also?
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april quite right I have many young farmers from comfortable backgrouds in my area and this is exactly what they do sow wild oats all over Scotland then marry when they are maybe 30 have children then the cycle starts again. This is the way they are brought up.
Susan, I feel very strongly that much of the problem with Steve's thesis is that he has NO concept of how other strata of society life their lives, NOR what counts as "normal" for others. It feels as if what doesn't fit with his own concepts is wrong, which maybe why he tries so hard to shoehorn Julie into it. He presents her as a woman who spends every day, if not on her knees in the confessional, being of service to others. Maybe this is how he finds it in him to forgive her.
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I can see your approach and can remember your take on the case from previous postings. I think what you regard as inaccurate, others might regard as adulterated to fit a purpose. Surely Jeremy Bamber cannot alter the pathologist's findings re blood on Sheila's palms or there having been no rifle on the body before it is on the body, as per the observations of raid team member etc. Jeremy Bamber puts nevill's and Sheila's fingerprints on the shotgun also?
Of course Jeremy Bamber cannot alter the fact the police messed up their initial actions in relation to the events that Jeremy had reported regarding White Hosue Farm whilst naming his sister with the gun.
Just like Jeremy cannot alter the fact there were very few finger prints (one from Jeremy and one from Sheila) on the rifle Jeremy had admittedly handled the previous evening without wearing gloves and later had been allegedly used by Sheila in the slaying of four family members plus her suicide. Why would Sheila wipe the rifle clean when she is going to commit suicide with it........ to frame Jeremy in anticipation of Jeremy ringing the police?
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Susan, I feel very strongly that much of the problem with Steve's thesis is that he has NO concept of how other strata of society life their lives, NOR what counts as "normal" for others. It feels as if what doesn't fit with his own concepts is wrong, which maybe why he tries so hard to shoehorn Julie into it. He presents her as a woman who spends every day, if not on her knees in the confessional, being of service to others. Maybe this is how he finds it in him to forgive her.
As far as I'm aware Julie stayed loyal to Jeremy for almost two years. No wonder she felt badly let down.
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As far as I'm aware Julie stayed loyal to Jeremy for almost two years. No wonder she felt badly let down.
Steve,there's no law stating that you must " carry on courting ". No rings were involved,no promises or vows.Jeremy was quite at liberty to do as he pleased. It would seem as though that also was a punishable offence which was added into the trial for good measure.
SHE felt let down ??? What about Jeremy ?
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steve yes you are right Julie was a woman scorned. What Jeremy Bamber did to her was not right but what she did to him was appalling and not an excuse for him cheating on her I must admit at the onset I don't think she meant it to go as far as it did but she was at a point of no return her survival became her number one.
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As far as I'm aware Julie stayed loyal to Jeremy for almost two years. No wonder she felt badly let down.
Yes Steve, her desire for the much bigger prize seemingly outweighed her principles. I reiterate: Had he put a ring of enough value on her finger she'd have said NOTHING.
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april think a small ring would have done the trick ;D
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april think a small ring would have done the trick ;D
As long as it was platinum, Susan ;)
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april absolutely all the farmers wives I know wear platinum and drive Range Rovers ;D ;D ;D
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That may be the case but I am not qualified to say one way or another.
However, it is the case that all psychopathic / sociopathic individuals remain undiagnosed as such until the time as they have been diagnosed. Surely they do not suddenly become psychopathic / sociopathic but have always been so but have remained undiagnosed.
Given the problem what has emoting got to do with psychopathic / sociopathic tendencies?
A question .... would Adolf Hitler (a man who emoted so well a whole nation where inspired by him and elected him to power by the democratic vote) be classed as a psychopath / sociopath?
I would have thought that 27+ stringent test by eminent psychologists would have thrown up at least a hint of some sort of personality disorder or mental health disorder but in fact nothing has ever showed up. I don't understand you question about emoting, one of the main features of psychopathy/sociopathy./narcissism is the inability of people suffering these disorders to emote.
Adolf Hitler knew how to press the right buttons addressing a crowd and was no doubt a great manipulator do you need to be a psychopath to be a megalomaniac? He had other people, thugs ?psychopaths? to do his dirty work therefore we aren't sure whether he personally could emote or not and he was never tested for psychopathy, on the other hand Jeremy Bamber has been.
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I would have thought that 27+ stringent test by eminent psychologists would have thrown up at least a hint of some sort of personality disorder or mental health disorder but in fact nothing has ever showed up. I don't understand you question about emoting, one of the main features of psychopathy/sociopathy./narcissism is the inability of people suffering these disorders to emote.
Adolf Hitler knew how to press the right buttons addressing a crowd and was no doubt a great manipulator do you need to be a psychopath to be a megalomaniac? He had other people, thugs ?psychopaths? to do his dirty work therefore we aren't sure whether he personally could emote or not and he was never tested for psychopathy, on the other hand Jeremy Bamber has been.
Maggie, a rider to the above. It always amazes me that whilst 27+ professionals have found nothing amiss regarding Jeremy's personality -and one has to accept that between them they have a modicum of understanding of unnatural psychopathy- we have here those will little OR in some cases NO understanding but they insist that the professionals have got it wrong.
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I would have thought that 27+ stringent test by eminent psychologists would have thrown up at least a hint of some sort of personality disorder or mental health disorder but in fact nothing has ever showed up. I don't understand you question about emoting, one of the main features of psychopathy/sociopathy./narcissism is the inability of people suffering these disorders to emote.
Adolf Hitler knew how to press the right buttons addressing a crowd and was no doubt a great manipulator do you need to be a psychopath to be a megalomaniac? He had other people, thugs ?psychopaths? to do his dirty work therefore we aren't sure whether he personally could emote or not and he was never tested for psychopathy, on the other hand Jeremy Bamber has been.
So whatever Adolf Hitler may or may not have been in terms of any potential mental health issues he still did what he did?
The possibilty of Jeremy being diagnosed with one thing or another whether that be a mental health disorder or a personality trait does not mean he did or did not commit or was involved in any killings. The two things (a diagnosis and the killings) are not conclusively linked.
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Maggie, a rider to the above. It always amazes me that whilst 27+ professionals have found nothing amiss regarding Jeremy's personality -and one has to accept that between them they have a modicum of understanding of unnatural psychopathy- we have here those will little OR in some cases NO understanding but they insist that the professionals have got it wrong.
Bambers site claims that 27 tests have been carried out and nothing has been found. No evidence of this actually being true has ever been presented and there is a lot of rubbish on the Bamber website so I wouldn't jump to the belief that what you're quoting is actually even true.
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Maggie, a rider to the above. It always amazes me that whilst 27+ professionals have found nothing amiss regarding Jeremy's personality -and one has to accept that between them they have a modicum of understanding of unnatural psychopathy- we have here those will little OR in some cases NO understanding but they insist that the professionals have got it wrong.
Imo they have to insist Jerremy Bamber is a psychopath/sociopath in order for their theories to make any sort of sense. It is VERY hard to believe that anyone other than someone with a severe personality disorder would be capableofo carrying out such horrendous crimes on their nearest and dearest and then coolly turn up and meet the police outside the farmhouse a couple of hours later. So we hear that JB is some sort of super psychopath who can deceive the most practiced and experienced psychologists, can pass the tests that check he isn't hiding his psychopathy and generally have never shown any violence in any way to anyone in his life even to the point he's called a 'pansy' by some of his extended rellies because of his hatred of killing anything.
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I don't see how the prosecution case falls apart if there were more than one gun used. Jeremy probably entered by the downstairs cloakroom as he had done many times before in the past,thereby passing an array of weapons. The reported hearing of a shot fired in the vicinity of White House Farm around 11:30pm cannot be tied to an exhausted Sheila climbing the stairs to bed.
Why would EP go to such lengths to fabricate a one gun scenario if it makes no difference ?
You accept that it is fabricated but see no reason to question why ? Intellectual curiosity not your forte is it Steve ?
The hand swabs, dubious as they are, are used by guilters as showing that Sheila could not have reloaded the "one gun" but now we cannot know if she had to.
This is where the magical Pargeter rifle becomes an issue or it should to those curious enough. I call it a magical rifle because if you believe Pargeter then you also believe that his rifle was in two places at the same time . Which leads us to SBJ2 a photograph taken by Stan Jones on the morning of 7/8/85, of the downstairs toilet where Pargeter's rifle was normally kept. This photograph has disappeared. Does none of this make you suspect that the whole scenario put by the prosecution is fabricated?
The issue of Sheila's fingerprints on the shotgun which you dismissed as irrelevant when Caroline raised it with you, when coupled with your admission that there was more than one gun used, is baffling. The implications are obvious and you are being naive or wilfully blind if you cannot see that.
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But there were 25 shots fired,so even with two guns she has to reload. You've got to explain the blood spatter on the nightie,and so many other unlikely events discussed many times before:the ammunition left out with small children in the house,Nevill's cordless telephone probably tampered with by Jeremy,the removal of the bedroom telephone,the removal of the sights when they would have assisted the shooting of rabbits..
Pargeter's rifle held 15 bullets so we don't know if she had to reload .
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Imo they have to insist Jerremy Bamber is a psychopath/sociopath in order for their theories to make any sort of sense. It is VERY hard to believe that anyone other than someone with a severe personality disorder would be capableofo carrying out such horrendous crimes on their nearest and dearest and then coolly turn up and meet the police outside the farmhouse a couple of hours later. So we hear that JB is some sort of super psychopath who can deceive the most practiced and experienced psychologists, can pass the tests that check he isn't hiding his psychopathy and generally have never shown any violence in any way to anyone in his life even to the point he's called a 'pansy' by some of his extended rellies because of his hatred of killing anything.
With the greatest of respect any opinion in this matter and in the scheme of things / in the context of the events that unfolded are irrelevant. Such opinion is not required or necessary before a court of law or jury for a criminal case to be heard.
In any event even if Jeremy does have some kind mental health disorder or specific personality traits they will only have been diagnosed and recognised post event which in all probability says a lot.
The facts remain in the opinion of the Jury and regardless of whether Jeremy is or is not a psychopath / sociopath he was found guilty by a majority verdict of 10 to 2.
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Because the Prosecution scenario is that Jeremy staged the scene to suit his own ends.
But now you accept that some fabrication has taken place by the prosecution, it isn't convincing that Jeremy staged the scene, especially as the accusation is made by those, that even you now accept manipulated the ballistics evidence .
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With the greatest of respect any opinion in this matter and in the scheme of things / in the context of the events that unfolded are irrelevant. Such opinion is not required or necessary before a court of law or jury for a criminal case to be heard.
In any event even if Jeremy does have some kind mental health disorder or specific personality traits they will only have been diagnosed and recognised post event which in all probability says a lot.
The facts remain in the opinion of the Jury and regardless of whether Jeremy is or is not a psychopath / sociopath he was found guilty by a majority verdict of 10 to 2.
What are you on about? He's been tested post event 27 times and does NOT have any psychopathic/sociopathic traits.
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I was probably one of the first to read Hunter,but as Caroline stated in a recent post it's not gospel just because he was an MP,though one would assume that you had your facts right before you stood up in the House of Commons. It was the anschutz which was found lying atop Sheila's body and the anschutz which had been left loaded the night before around the settle area and I can't see what material difference a second gun makes if you believe that Jeremy was plotting to kill his family for almost a year..
Hunter's interpretations and opinions are not gospel . His laying out of the ballistics evidence is factual . From these facts you concluded that it was not a one gun crime because it is clear from the evidence . Opinion doesn't really come into it.
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What are you on about? He's been tested post event 27 times and does NOT have any psychopathic/sociopathic traits.
Why is Jeremy being tested 27 times of any relevance?
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Why would EP go to such lengths to fabricate a one gun scenario if it makes no difference ?
You accept that it is fabricated but see no reason to question why ? Intellectual curiosity not your forte is it Steve ?
The hand swabs, dubious as they are, are used by guilters as showing that Sheila could not have reloaded the "one gun" but now we cannot know if she had to.
This is where the magical Pargeter rifle becomes an issue or it should to those curious enough. I call it a magical rifle because if you believe Pargeter then you also believe that his rifle was in two places at the same time . Which leads us to SBJ2 a photograph taken by Stan Jones on the morning of 7/8/85, of the downstairs toilet where Pargeter's rifle was normally kept. This photograph has disappeared. Does none of this make you suspect that the whole scenario put by the prosecution is fabricated?
The issue of Sheila's fingerprints on the shotgun which you dismissed as irrelevant when Caroline raised it with you, when coupled with your admission that there was more than one gun used, is baffling. The implications are obvious and you are being naive or wilfully blind if you cannot see that.
Gringo, I think Steve would find it emotionally impossible to take on board the possibility of Jeremy's innocence. For him all of this seems to have been about justifying what Julie did and exonerating her for it. I think the only time he MAY accuse her of lying is if she suddenly remembered that she may have made a "mistake" in some of what she said and changed her story, but it would probably be the new version which he'd say was a lie. I think, and of course, it's only my opinion, that for Steve, Jeremy MUST be guilty and must STAY guilty.
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Gringo, I think Steve would find it emotionally impossible to take on board the possibility of Jeremy's innocence. For him all of this seems to have been about justifying what Julie did and exonerating her for it. I think the only time he MAY accuse her of lying is if she suddenly remembered that she may have made a "mistake" in some of what she said and changed her story, but it would probably be the new version which he'd say was a lie. I think, and of course, it's only my opinion, that for Steve, Jeremy MUST be guilty and must STAY guilty.
In the eyes of the law Jeremy is guilty and still remains guilty.
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In the eyes of the law Jeremy is guilty and still remains guilty.
At the moment, but that wasn't my point.
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Why is Jeremy being tested 27 times of any relevance?
In case there's any doubt?!! ::)
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At the moment, but that wasn't my point.
It may not have been your point but it is and remains the most important fact.
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In case there's any doubt?!! ::)
Any doubt of what?
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One can have an undiagnosed mental illness for years,but there has to be signs at some point in their lives,,and if Jeremy was one of these people,there would have been the smallest sign which would have shown itself before now.
Even if there'd been a possibility of him having committed the murders, in all these years,there'd have been an indication of a mental illness,especially as there are cameras 24/7 surveying behaviours and interactions with others.
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Gringo, I think Steve would find it emotionally impossible to take on board the possibility of Jeremy's innocence. For him all of this seems to have been about justifying what Julie did and exonerating her for it. I think the only time he MAY accuse her of lying is if she suddenly remembered that she may have made a "mistake" in some of what she said and changed her story, but it would probably be the new version which he'd say was a lie. I think, and of course, it's only my opinion, that for Steve, Jeremy MUST be guilty and must STAY guilty.
April. that is why I was surprised that Steve admitted that the ballistics convinced him that it wasn't a one gun crime as portrayed by the prosecution. He hasn't thought through the consequences that this has on the prosecution case . He seems to believe that you can remove whole chunks of the official narrative without consequences on the rest of the story.
As I said this is naivete or wilful blindness or quite possibly a bit of both.
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It may not have been your point but it is and remains the most important fact.
For now, but it's beginning to look as if the walls maybe starting to crumble. IMO, the basis of the case was formed on secrets, lies and agendas and Jeremy was only a baby when it started.
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In the eyes of the law Jeremy is guilty and still remains guilty.
What a pointless reply, we wouldn't be discussing the case on this forum otherwise.
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In the eyes of the law Jeremy is guilty and still remains guilty.
So was Sion Jenkins. So what is your point?
In the eyes of the law - is not the same as the absolute truth .
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For now, but it's beginning to look as if the walls maybe starting to crumble. IMO, the basis of the case was formed on secrets, lies and agendas and Jeremy was only a baby when it started.
Hence the extra pressure from those who say that he's guilty. Plus the offering of new evidence to the CCRC,,which,if I'm right,,won't be going down too well.
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One can have an undiagnosed mental illness for years,but there has to be signs at some point in their lives,,and if Jeremy was one of these people,there would have been the smallest sign which would have shown itself before now.
Even if there'd been a possibility of him having committed the murders, in all these years,there'd have been an indication of a mental illness,especially as there are cameras 24/7 surveying behaviours and interactions with others.
Let me get this correct..... so in your opinion the only person who could have comitted such killings would have to be a person who has a mental illness.
In my opinion such logic is insulting and shows a lack of consideration to anyone who may be suffering from any mental illness.
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Plus the offering of new evidence to the CCRC,,which,if I'm right,,won't be going down too well.
Oh please. ;D ;D
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Let me get this correct..... so in your opinion the only person who could have comitted such killings would have to be a person who has a mental illness.
In my opinion such logic is insulting and shows a lack of consideration to anyone who may be suffering from any mental illness.
I think if you read all the posts on here you will find that there is a huge amount of sympathy and empathy with people with mental illness. It is only when it is attributed to JB that people point out SC recorded medical history.And as a lot of posters have family with similar illnesses I find your post quite insulting.
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So was Sion Jenkins. So what is your point?
In the eyes of the law - is not the same as the absolute truth .
I have no problem with Jeremy proving he is innocent and being successful in overturning his conviction.
In fact I have listened to Mike and admitted openly on this forum that in my opinion Mike can prove Jeremy to be innocent.
According to Mike he has the ammunition and evidence to have Jeremy immediately released. For some reason Mike chooses to play games with the information he says he has and which is at his disposal.
Even I will admit again the photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single gun shot wound to the neck will destroy the case of the prosecution. Why keep and restrict such information for so many years when an allegedly innocent man continues to remain in prison.
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April. that is why I was surprised that Steve admitted that the ballistics convinced him that it wasn't a one gun crime as portrayed by the prosecution. He hasn't thought through the consequences that this has on the prosecution case . He seems to believe that you can remove whole chunks of the official narrative without consequences on the rest of the story.
As I said this is naivete or wilful blindness or quite possibly a bit of both.
if any of the offial narrative isnt true that means the conviction is unsafe.
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Let me get this correct..... so in your opinion the only person who could have comitted such killings would have to be a person who has a mental illness.
In my opinion such logic is insulting and shows a lack of consideration to anyone who may be suffering from any mental illness.
I think your opinion misplaced. There are those here who have vast knowledge of and have nursed those with mental illness. You will find no lack of either understanding or consideration amongst them.
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Let me get this correct..... so in your opinion the only person who could have comitted such killings would have to be a person who has a mental illness.
In my opinion such logic is insulting and shows a lack of consideration to anyone who may be suffering from any mental illness.
Lookout doesn't actually say that though and anyway are you the spokesperson for all mentally ill people.
Lookout was replying to the charge made by guilters that JB is a psychopath and pointing out that tests showed that this opinion is not supported by evidence . Don't contrive offence on behalf of others if you can't even be bothered to keep context.
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I think if you read all the posts on here you will find that there is a huge amount of sympathy and empathy with people with mental illness. It is only when it is attributed to JB that people point out SC recorded medical history.And as a lot of posters have family with similar illnesses I find your post quite insulting.
I am sorry if you feel insulted. My post was merely seeking clarification on your opinion based on the previous post you had made.
For the sake of clarity -
Do you believe only a person with a mental illness could have been responsible for the events that occurred at White House Farm on the morning of 7th August 1985?
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Hence the extra pressure from those who say that he's guilty. Plus the offering of new evidence to the CCRC,,which,if I'm right,,won't be going down too well.
no your right lookout it wont.
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Lookout doesn't actually say that though and anyway are you the spokesperson for all mentally ill people.
Lookout was replying to the charge made by guilters that JB is a psychopath and pointing out that tests showed that this opinion is not supported by evidence . Don't contrive offence on behalf of others if you can't even be bothered to keep context.
No I am not a spokesperson for the mentally ill. In fact I have no qualifications to be so and do not claim to have.
However in my opinion whether Jeremy is or is not a psychopath or sociopath does not mean Jeremy is guilty or not guilty of having been heavily involved in the committing of the murders. The two things are not interdependent.
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if any of the offial narrative isnt true that means the conviction is unsafe.
True Nugs, and fabrication on the scale that Steve now agrees took place makes the conviction not only unsafe,but a perversion of the course of justice.
Unsafe can mean that new evidence has come to light which sheds doubt . How do you pass off the wholesale fabrication of the ballistics as a "mistake" ?
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Oh please. ;D ;D
Good to see you're putting your usual sixpenn'orth in,Mat.
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True Nugs, and fabrication on the scale that Steve now agrees took place makes the conviction not only unsafe,but a perversion of the course of justice.
Unsafe can mean that new evidence has come to light which sheds doubt . How do you pass off the wholesale fabrication of the ballistics as a "mistake" ?
well i dont think theres any way on earth you can make a mistake like that.
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I am sorry if you feel insulted. My post was merely seeking clarification on your opinion based on the previous post you had made.
For the sake of clarity -
Do you believe only a person with a mental illness could have been responsible for the events that occurred at White House Farm on the morning of 7th August 1985?
Not necessarily - however it would seem that to kill the children it could be a possibility. Even if someone had a grudge against the family or it was a burglary gone wrong ( both unlikely because according to EP the house was secure ) It would be unlikely that the children would be killed. I also don't think in the case of money being the motive it would be necessary either. But in this case with the medical records of SC making comments about her children ( that were quite sad in my mind) then you don't need a motive . It would be as a result of her very unfortunate illness. Unlike others I still have an open mind.
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Not necessarily - however it would seem that to kill the children it could be a possibility. Even if someone had a grudge against the family or it was a burglary gone wrong ( both unlikely because according to EP the house was secure ) It would be unlikely that the children would be killed. I also don't think in the case of money being the motive it would be necessary either. But in this case with the medical records of SC making comments about her children ( that were quite sad in my mind) then you don't need a motive . It would be as a result of her very unfortunate illness. Unlike others I still have an open mind.
This is where it was easy to blame Jeremy for blaming Sheilas' illness. He'd have been better not mentioning that his sister was ill,,then let the police find out for themselves. It would also have saved the bother of all that waiting outside if the police had gone straight into the farmhouse.
I wouldn't have said anything about Sheila at all.
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Not necessarily - however it would seem that to kill the children it could be a possibility. Even if someone had a grudge against the family or it was a burglary gone wrong ( both unlikely because according to EP the house was secure ) It would be unlikely that the children would be killed. I also don't think in the case of money being the motive it would be necessary either. But in this case with the medical records of SC making comments about her children ( that were quite sad in my mind) then you don't need a motive . It would be as a result of her very unfortunate illness. Unlike others I still have an open mind.
'Not necessarily' - therefore any potential mental illness being related to whoever may have committed the murders is irrelevant as I have stated previously.
Sorry to have caused any potential insult.
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No I am not a spokesperson for the mentally ill. In fact I have no qualifications to be so and do not claim to have.
However in my opinion whether Jeremy is or is not a psychopath or sociopath does not mean Jeremy is guilty or not guilty of having been heavily involved in the committing of the murders. The two things are not interdependent.
Absolutely right - If he was ill it does not mean he did it - and because SC had diagnosed illness plus recorded incidents of violence towards others it does not make her guilty either. However her full history should have been disclosed to the Jury as well as the hearsay evidence against JB . Which I understand it was not.Let me make it clear, although it would seem there was a mis-trial and tampered evidence I don't want JB out on a technicality . IMO his life would not be worth living . So I think EP should be forced under a court order AGAIN to release the information held under PII.
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And a re-trial,Jansus. Nothing less.
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This is where it was easy to blame Jeremy for blaming Sheilas' illness. He'd have been better not mentioning that his sister was ill,,then let the police find out for themselves. It would also have saved the bother of all that waiting outside if the police had gone straight into the farmhouse.
I wouldn't have said anything about Sheila at all.
The fact remains Jeremy did not keep his opinions about Sheila illness to himself. In fact Jeremy was very keen to mention Sheila's illness Almost to the extent that it was a justifiable explanation and reason for the events that Jeremy had been first to exclusively reveal to the outside world. Jeremy specifically and consistently mentions Sheila's illness on a number of occasions including Jeremy's first telephone call to the police, when Jeremy arrives at WHF and meets the police and then again in his statement later that day.
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Sorry to finish the post - the hearsay evidence about what JB was supposed to have thought about farming or hating his family should not have been given credence either ... As I posted before -there is always someone not telling the full truth in a court of law - otherwise there would be no need for trials. So people cant just pick and chose to believe certain people and not others . Just because someone comes across as arrogant in court ( e.g Sion Jenkins) does not make them guilty either. So the most RELIABLE witnesses should be the police , because they are supposed to be independent - and I am sure in most cases they are. But as soon as evidence or statements are tampered with it (IMO) makes the whole case fall apart.
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The fact remains Jeremy did not keep his opinions about Sheila illness to himself. In fact Jeremy was very keen to mention Sheila's illness Almost to the extent that it was a justifiable explanation and reason for the events that Jeremy had been first to exclusively reveal to the outside world. Jeremy specifically and consistently mentions Sheila's illness on a number of occasions including Jeremy's first telephone call to the police, when Jeremy arrives at WHF and meets the police and then again in his statement later that day.
perhaps that came from the words of his father though - and he was re-inforcing the possible danger. Nothing more than that . I don't think he was "justifying" what she did . He was just scared about what she could do. Hence why he was annoyed with the police ( who should have been better equipped than him) going in sooner.
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Absolutely right - If he was ill it does not mean he did it - and because SC had diagnosed illness plus recorded incidents of violence towards others it does not make her guilty either. However her full history should have been disclosed to the Jury as well as the hearsay evidence against JB . Which I understand it was not.Let me make it clear, although it would seem there was a mis-trial and tampered evidence I don't want JB out on a technicality . IMO his life would not be worth living . So I think EP should be forced under a court order AGAIN to release the information held under PII.
It should also be remembered the 'hearsay' rule will also have played into Jeremy's favour. Certain 'hearsay' evidence was not allowed to to be heard in the court or mentioned before the jury at the original trial.
However I believe rules have since changed and such 'hearsay' evidence would be allowed today. Certain 'hearsay' evidence, in my opinion, would make things much more difficult for Jeremy to overcome if there was ever a retrial in the future.
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The fact remains Jeremy did not keep his opinions about Sheila illness to himself. In fact Jeremy was very keen to mention Sheila's illness Almost to the extent that it was a justifiable explanation and reason for the events that Jeremy had been first to exclusively reveal to the outside world. Jeremy specifically and consistently mentions Sheila's illness on a number of occasions including Jeremy's first telephone call to the police, when Jeremy arrives at WHF and meets the police and then again in his statement later that day.
Which causes one to wonder if this had been an ongoing fear that the family had colluded in. As evinced by Colin at the funeral, the wider family knew next to nothing about Sheila's condition. She lived away and was treated even further away so no one knew where she was or why, although during her last stay she wrote one very strange letter to Ann which wasn't responded to. IMO this tragedy may not have happened had her family been more open about the extent of her illness. How well that knowledge would have been received by the wider family is questionable, though.
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'Not necessarily' - therefore any potential mental illness being related to whoever may have committed the murders is irrelevant as I have stated previously.
Sorry to have caused any potential insult.
I still believe that only a person suffering a psychotic episode or someone who has an extreme personality disorder could be capable of murdering their mother and father, sister and 6 year old nephews in cold blood and then turn up outside the farmhouse as cool as a cucumber, showing absolutely no sign of stress or trauma. It's unbelievable in my eyes.
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perhaps that came from the words of his father though - and he was re-inforcing the possible danger. Nothing more than that . I don't think he was "justifying" what she did . He was just scared about what she could do. Hence why he was annoyed with the police ( who should have been better equipped than him) going in sooner.
Maybe he was preparing the ground for what was yet to be seen inside WHF.
Is that why Mike has revealed Jeremy and he used to have great laughs when talking about one of the policeman who allegedly wet himself when they were all running for cover behind a hedge at WHF.
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Which causes one to wonder if this had been an ongoing fear that the family had colluded in. As evinced by Colin at the funeral, the wider family knew next to nothing about Sheila's condition. She lived away and was treated even further away so no one knew where she was or why, although during her last stay she wrote one very strange letter to Ann which wasn't responded to. IMO this tragedy may not have happened had her family been more open about the extent of her illness. How well that knowledge would have been received by the wider family is questionable, though.
April,the family would still have blamed Jeremy,on the pretext that he used his sisters' illness. You can't win with some people no matter how much it's explained to them,,they're firmly fixated with his guilt,there'd be no shifting them.
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I still believe that only a person suffering a psychotic episode or someone who has an extreme personality disorder could be capable of murdering their mother and father, sister and 6 year old nephews in cold blood and then turn up outside the farmhouse as cool as a cucumber, showing absolutely no sign of stress or trauma. It's unbelievable in my eyes.
I'm with you all the way on that one Maggie, and I fail to comprehend how a person with a mental history such as Sheila's, when she'd voiced fears pertaining to evil surrounding her children and her fears of what she might do to them, should be overlooked for someone with NO mental history and so little against him that motives have to be contrived.
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I'm with you all the way on that one Maggie, and I fail to comprehend how a person with a mental history such as Sheila's, when she'd voiced fears pertaining to evil surrounding her children and her fears of what she might do to them, should be overlooked for someone with NO mental history and so little against him that motives have to be contrived.
Exactly April. :)
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I still believe that only a person suffering a psychotic episode or someone who has an extreme personality disorder could be capable of murdering their mother and father, sister and 6 year old nephews in cold blood and then turn up outside the farmhouse as cool as a cucumber, showing absolutely no sign of stress or trauma. It's unbelievable in my eyes.
Therefore it would appear in the context of the eyes of the law you believe Jeremy to have a suffered from a psychotic episode or having some kind of an extreme personality disorder.
Maybe you just do not want to believe Jeremy could have committed the murders.
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April,the family would still have blamed Jeremy,on the pretext that he used his sisters' illness. You can't win with some people no matter how much it's explained to them,,they're firmly fixated with his guilt,there'd be no shifting them.
well they had a very good financial reason to fixate on his guilt
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Therefore it would appear in the context of the eyes of the law you believe Jeremy to have a suffered from a psychotic episode or having some kind of an extreme personality disorder.
Maybe you just do not want to believe Jeremy could have committed the murders.
Why do you want to believe he did? We have Sheila who had previously voiced fears that her children were evil and would commit certain acts on her, She had previously stated that "all people are evil and should die/be killed" We know that her meds were unstable. We know that her prognosis, because of slow onset of psychosis, was poor. We know that during her last 18 weeks her world must have fallen apart AND YET it was chosen to lay this deed on Jeremy, who apart from being a bit more than a Jack the Lad, had done little to suggest that he could possibly commit this crime.
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Therefore it would appear in the context of the eyes of the law you believe Jeremy to have a suffered from a psychotic episode or having some kind of an extreme personality disorder.
Maybe you just do not want to believe Jeremy could have committed the murders.
I do not believe any such thing because Jeremy has not got a mental illness or a personality disorder, if he did have there would be more reason to believe his guilt was likely. It is one of the reasons I do not believe him guilty because I believe a person of sound and healthy mind would not contemplate going into a house to kill 3 adults and two children with no more protection than a vermin gun and crossed fingers. Neither do I believe anyone of healthy sound mind would be able to stand up to the horror and grotesque scenario of killing these people at close range and then coolly turning up outside the farmhouse and chatting to the police. Only a person with a psychopathic personality could behave in such a way imo.
You obviously believe differently but this is my opinion.
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well they had a very good financial reason to fixate on his guilt
Indeed they did nugs,,and that reason shouts down your ear for all it's worth.
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I do not believe any such thing because Jeremy has not got a mental illness or a personality disorder, if he did have there would be more reason to believe his guilt was likely. It is one of the reasons I do not believe him guilty because I believe a person of sound and healthy mind would not contemplate going into a house to kill 3 adults and two children with no more protection than a vermin gun and crossed fingers. Neither do I believe anyone of healthy sound mind would be able to stand up to the horror and grotesque scenario of killing these people at close range and then coolly turning up outside the farmhouse and chatting to the police. Only a person with a psychopathic personality could behave in such a way imo.
You obviously believe differently but this is my opinion.
Yes Maggie, people tend to forget that such carnage would remain in the perpetrators eyes, ears, nose and mouth. God knows for how long they'd smell it and taste it. Yet they have Jeremy, free of psychopathy and with no other personality disorder, apparently cool as a cucumber.
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Why do you want to believe he did? We have Sheila who had previously voiced fears that her children were evil and would commit certain acts on her, She had previously stated that "all people are evil and should die/be killed" We know that her meds were unstable. We know that her prognosis, because of slow onset of psychosis, was poor. We know that during her last 18 weeks her world must have fallen apart AND YET it was chosen to lay this deed on Jeremy, who apart from being a bit more than a Jack the Lad, had done little to suggest that he could possibly commit this crime.
None of the things you have mentioned regarding Sheila make her a murderer or prove Sheila to be a murderer. On the other side it is often stated Jeremy's arrogance, greed and behaviour post events do not make him a murderer. However, in both cases they may provide some clues.
I have re stated tonight if what Mike says he has is true then there is categorical physical proof Jeremy could not have committed the murders which means it must have been Sheila. However, for some unknown reason Mike will not or does not want to physically reveal or share what he says he has alleged he has in his possession.
Currently and consistently, I believe the answer as to whom committed the murdres lies in the timing and the sequence of the telephone calls. Such events all occured before any silencers were found and do not involve any relatives. For me Jeremy's explanations of these events remains inconsistent with both a number of other independent witness statements and the physical telephone technology that was in place at both the telephone exchange and WHF / Goldhanger at the time.
As soon as Jeremy made contact with the police on the morning of 7th August 1985 the murders could only have heavily involved Jeremy or Sheila.
Jeremy got his defence in first when he specifically names Sheila to the police and outside world.
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None of the things you have mentioned regarding Sheila make her a murderer or prove Sheila to be a murderer. On the other side it is often stated Jeremy's arrogance, greed and behaviour post events do not make him a murderer. However, in both cases they may provide some clues.
I have re stated tonight if what Mike says he has is true then there is categorical physical proof Jeremy could not have committed the murders which means it must have been Sheila. However, for some unknown reason Mike will not or does not want to physically reveal or share what he says he has alleged he has in his possession.
Currently and consistently, I believe the answer as to whom committed the murdres lies in the timing and the sequence of the telephone calls. Such events all occured before any silencers were found and do not involve any relatives. For me Jeremy's explanations of these events remains inconsistent with both a number of other independent witness statements and the physical telephone technology that was in place at both the telephone exchange and WHF / Goldhanger at the time.
I don't believe that anything said here on the forum is likely to unlock Jeremy's cell door, HOWEVER I fee certain that you can't be unaware that one of our braver members cut themselves and allowed their blood to drip into a surface which they photographed over several hours as it oxidized thus proving that after several days blood couldn't look like a blob of jam.
Regarding the timing of the calls, I can only say that if they are being held it is more than likely that it will be IN Jeremy's favour rather than against it. WHY hold onto something which could provide unassailable proof of his guilt.
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I don't believe that anything said here on the forum is likely to unlock Jeremy's cell door, HOWEVER I fee certain that you can't be unaware that one of our braver members cut themselves and allowed their blood to drip into a surface which they photographed over several hours as it oxidized thus proving that after several days blood couldn't look like a blob of jam.
Regarding the timing of the calls, I can only say that if they are being held it is more than likely that it will be IN Jeremy's favour rather than against it. WHY hold onto something which could provide unassailable proof of his guilt.
What Mike says he has is nothing to do with the timing of the telephone calls. Mike says he has a photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single gunshot wound to her neck. Such a photograph would prove Jeremy's innocence. Holding onto and not revealing such an item, in my opion, is hardly working in Jeremy's favour as Jeremy remains in prison. According to Mike he has had the alleged photograph for a number of years.
Maybe your opinion is that this is helping Jeremy and will ultimately be in his favour. If the alleged photograph had been revealed when first discovered then a brave forum member may not have had to harm themselves in donating their blood for a photographic experiment.
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None of the things you have mentioned regarding Sheila make her a murderer or prove Sheila to be a murderer. On the other side it is often stated Jeremy's arrogance, greed and behaviour post events do not make him a murderer. However, in both cases they may provide some clues.
I have re stated tonight if what Mike says he has is true then there is categorical physical proof Jeremy could not have committed the murders which means it must have been Sheila. However, for some unknown reason Mike will not or does not want to physically reveal or share what he says he has alleged he has in his possession.
Currently and consistently, I believe the answer as to whom committed the murdres lies in the timing and the sequence of the telephone calls. Such events all occured before any silencers were found and do not involve any relatives. For me Jeremy's explanations of these events remains inconsistent with both a number of other independent witness statements and the physical telephone technology that was in place at both the telephone exchange and WHF / Goldhanger at the time.
As soon as Jeremy made contact with the police on the morning of 7th August 1985 the murders could only have heavily involved Jeremy or Sheila.
Jeremy got his defence in first when he specifically names Sheila to the police and outside world.
Or perhaps what he said was true? >:(
Otherwise it makes him a bit of a simpleton rather than a clever /evil/calculating murderer
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None of the things you have mentioned regarding Sheila make her a murderer or prove Sheila to be a murderer. On the other side it is often stated Jeremy's arrogance, greed and behaviour post events do not make him a murderer. However, in both cases they may provide some clues.
I have re stated tonight if what Mike says he has is true then there is categorical physical proof Jeremy could not have committed the murders which means it must have been Sheila. However, for some unknown reason Mike will not or does not want to physically reveal or share what he says he has alleged he has in his possession.
Currently and consistently, I believe the answer as to whom committed the murdres lies in the timing and the sequence of the telephone calls. Such events all occured before any silencers were found and do not involve any relatives. For me Jeremy's explanations of these events remains inconsistent with both a number of other independent witness statements and the physical telephone technology that was in place at both the telephone exchange and WHF / Goldhanger at the time.
As soon as Jeremy made contact with the police on the morning of 7th August 1985 the murders could only have heavily involved Jeremy or Sheila.
Jeremy got his defence in first when he specifically names Sheila to the police and outside world.
on your reasoning the police have no reason not to release the information they have either?
And why did they destroy evidence against a court order - and was the original file lost in a burglary as they alleged? And why was one police officer in tears when being questioned in the subsequent investigation. Nothing to hide? then release the info and let JB ( in your eyes ) waste his time.
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Or perhaps what he said was true? >:(
Otherwise it makes him a bit of a simpleton rather than a clever /evil/calculating murderer
If it was true then it would be consistent with what three other independent witnesses have stated.
If it was true then what Jeremy has said would be consistent with the telephone technology that was at WHF and his cottage in Goldhanger.
Unfortunately what Jeremy has said is inconsistent with both........ not just one but both the above and all the above.
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What Mike says he has is nothing to do with the timing of the telephone calls. Mike says he has a photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single gunshot wound to her neck. Such a photograph would prove Jeremy's innocence. Holding onto and not revealing such an item, in my opion, is hardly working in Jeremy's favour as Jeremy remains in prison. According to Mike he has had the alleged photograph for a number of years.
Maybe your opinion is that this is helping Jeremy and will ultimately be in his favour. If the alleged photograph had been revealed when first discovered then a brave forum member may not have had to harm themselves in donating their blood for a photographic experiment.
You're addressing these points to the wrong person. I suggest you take them up with Mike.
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on your reasoning the police have no reason not to release the information they have either?
And why did they destroy evidence against a court order - and was the original file lost in a burglary as they alleged? And why was one police officer in tears when being questioned in the subsequent investigation. Nothing to hide? then release the info and let JB ( in your eyes ) waste his time.
Well that is not strictly true as the police may have some legitimate reasons for not releasing some or all or the information they have. The answer is I do not know whether any information is being withheld when it should be released.
Of course if it is the case information should be released then it should be released.
I do not think you can blame the police or offer the actions of the police as a valid and reasoned excuse for Mike not revealing information he has alleged he has which would prove Jeremy to be innocent.
In fact thinking about it if Mike were to reveal what he alleges he has the alleged state agency corruption involving the entire Criminal Justice System would, in my opinion, subsequently come crumpling down. There would be so much controversy and uproar the police and all would be forced to reveal absolutely everything they have in relation to Jeremy Bamber. I would go so far as predicting it would be the end of Essex Police in its current form with a merger with a neighbouring force being the most likely outcome.
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You're addressing these points to the wrong person. I suggest you take them up with Mike.
I was specifically responding to your post and included some specifically detailed reasoning in explanation.
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I do not believe any such thing because Jeremy has not got a mental illness or a personality disorder, if he did have there would be more reason to believe his guilt was likely. It is one of the reasons I do not believe him guilty because I believe a person of sound and healthy mind would not contemplate going into a house to kill 3 adults and two children with no more protection than a vermin gun and crossed fingers. Neither do I believe anyone of healthy sound mind would be able to stand up to the horror and grotesque scenario of killing these people at close range and then coolly turning up outside the farmhouse and chatting to the police. Only a person with a psychopathic personality could behave in such a way imo.
You obviously believe differently but this is my opinion.
Has the above paragraph been written with full knowledge of the catathymic crisis thread?
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Has the above paragraph been written with full knowledge of the catathymic crisis thread?
It would seem to me that proving catathymic crisis is as possible as proving someone died whilst in the grip of a nightmare.
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Has the above paragraph been written with full knowledge of the catathymic crisis thread?
Yes. I dont accept your theory Steve, sorry.
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I do not believe any such thing because Jeremy has not got a mental illness or a personality disorder, if he did have there would be more reason to believe his guilt was likely. It is one of the reasons I do not believe him guilty because I believe a person of sound and healthy mind would not contemplate going into a house to kill 3 adults and two children with no more protection than a vermin gun and crossed fingers. Neither do I believe anyone of healthy sound mind would be able to stand up to the horror and grotesque scenario of killing these people at close range and then coolly turning up outside the farmhouse and chatting to the police. Only a person with a psychopathic personality could behave in such a way imo.
You obviously believe differently but this is my opinion.
Jeremy hated his immediate family & also resented Sheila & the twins.
He was greedy, impatient & thought he could get away with it. He did not need a personality disorder to carry out the killings. Just a bike, loose window & loaded gun. It was worth the risk. His reaction after the murders showed he was not bothered.
Two 6 year olds, one 61 year old woman, one small woman & one man. All asleep. No problem. Just shoot them in the head with a silencer on while they sleep. Things did not quite go to plan. But he was so pleased with his nights work he boasted to Mugford at 3.12.
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stop posting in statements. its your opinion and nothing else. If anything makes me sway towards JBs innocence its your posts.
Go and watch groundhog day . I seriously think you are in it.
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Jeremy hated his immediate family & also resented Sheila & the twins.
He was greedy, impatient & thought he could get away with it. He did not need a personality disorder to carry out the killings. Just a bike, loose window & loaded gun. It was worth the risk. His reaction after the murders showed he was not bothered.
Two 6 year olds, one 61 year old woman, one small woman & one man. All asleep. No problem. Just shoot them in the head with a silencer on while they sleep. Things did not quite go to plan. But he was so pleased with his nights work he boasted to Mugford at 3.12.
No he didn't Adam. He often played with the twins.
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No he didn't Adam. He often played with the twins.
How sweet. Wherd did you read that ?
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Jeremy hated his immediate family & also resented Sheila & the twins.
He was greedy, impatient & thought he could get away with it. He did not need a personality disorder to carry out the killings. Just a bike, loose window & loaded gun. It was worth the risk. His reaction after the murders showed he was not bothered.
Two 6 year olds, one 61 year old woman, one small woman & one man. All asleep. No problem. Just shoot them in the head with a silencer on while they sleep. Things did not quite go to plan. But he was so pleased with his nights work he boasted to Mugford at 3.12.
Do you know what IMO means ? Do you know what discussion means? Do you know what forums are for? No I thought not. ::)
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Jeremy hated his immediate family & also resented Sheila & the twins.
He was greedy, impatient & thought he could get away with it. He did not need a personality disorder to carry out the killings. Just a bike, loose window & loaded gun. It was worth the risk. His reaction after the murders showed he was not bothered.
Two 6 year olds, one 61 year old woman, one small woman & one man. All asleep. No problem. Just shoot them in the head with a silencer on while they sleep. Things did not quite go to plan. But he was so pleased with his nights work he boasted to Mugford at 3.12.
It's unforgivable really.
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It's unforgivable really.
What is?
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What is?
The crime,and Jeremy's attempt to make money out of any opportunity,whether it's Osea Road,the jewellery robbery in New Zealand,the White House murders or his pursual of a miscarriage of justice claim.
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But you don't mind Julie making money out of it?
I have condemned Julie for that,or any other interested parties who stood to gain if the verdict went the other way for that matter..
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The crime,and Jeremy's attempt to make money out of any opportunity,whether it's Osea Road,the jewellery robbery in New Zealand,the White House murders or his pursual of a miscarriage of justice claim.
What jewellry robbery ..... that's hearsay at best, Osea Road ...... would like to know the real truth about how that came about.
I think it's pretty unforgiveable how you quote hearsay or your own thoughts as fact.
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What jewellry robbery ..... that's hearsay at best, Osea Road ...... would like to know the real truth about how that came about.
I think it's pretty unforgiveable how you quote hearsay or your own thoughts as fact.
We've sifted through an awful lot of evidence which is damning to Jeremy's cause,ambiguous at best.Jeremy was forced to admit to the Osea Road robbery to conceal a greater crime.
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We've sifted through an awful lot of evidence which is damning to Jeremy's cause,ambiguous at best.Jeremy was forced to admit to the Osea Road robbery to conceal a greater crime.
But evidence which is ambiguous is not evidence which proves anything as it is open to interpretation and is not fact as you know.
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We've sifted through an awful lot of evidence which is damning to Jeremy's cause,ambiguous at best.Jeremy was forced to admit to the Osea Road robbery to conceal a greater crime.
How on earth could one crime conceal another crime. Forgive me for being blunt. But that reasoning doesn't make sense?
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Morning steve
have not got a clue what you are talking about one crime to conceal another does not make any sense at all.
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How on earth could one crime conceal another crime. Forgive me for being blunt. But that reasoning doesn't make sense?
Sounds good Grahame/Susan just doesn't really mean anything ;D
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Sounds good Grahame/Susan just doesn't really mean anything ;D
How's about "Full of sound and fury and signifying NOTHING"? I think that's a fairly appropriate and accurate fit, don't you :D
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How's about "Full of sound and fury and signifying NOTHING"? I think that's a fairly appropriate and accurate fit, don't you :D
Pretty damn appropriate, April. ;D
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Jeremy did not own up to the Osea Road burglary until he realized Julie had told the Police about it. Remember at this stage under interrogation Jeremy has no exact knowledge of what was in Julie's statement. But we do know a little of Jeremy's mindset when he told Julie "it's important to tell the truth as much as possible" after Police had left Goldhanger that first day.
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Just fancy, Injudicious Julie bragging to "Loose Lips (coppers nark) Liz RIMINGTON", about her shopping 'Spree' with her mate, and the Caravan Site break-in with her bloke, who as it happened, had apparently been 'shagging' said Liz, who was already familiar with 'ace 'tec' Stan 'the Brain' Jones.
The brain boggles when Liz is associated with the Blaggards, possibly via Mr Cock, the accountant.
One simply could not make this up!
"THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS, EVER". - MRDavies.
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The family were killed AFTER the call - deliberations on how serious the situation was would have come BEFORE and as none of us know how things panned out just BEFORE the shootings, you can't say what is or isn't relevant.
Only in your scenario (and no need to shout) - there was no call, so how could they be killed after it? - I believe all the family (including Sheila) were killed well before 3am by Bamber.
I cannot, and simply will not, accept that Nevill would have left an emotional girl with a loaded gun - I am gob smacked that anyone can accept this.
Or that anyone can accept Nevill asking his son over to face an armed person - that has gone crazy - surely you must see my point here.
Nevill would have disarmed Sheila first (if any of this happened of course which it didn't) protecting her not only from herself first, but also all those apparently still alive (which of course they weren't)
The whole story from Bamber is made up, and it's clear to me at least that it is due to the points I have raised on this subject, plus there is no proof to corroborate his story - so game over - Bamber stays in! :P
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Hi Tyler, I agree -
1)if Nevill thought that Sheila was a danger only to herself (ie. not threatening ANYONE else with the rifle/shot gun), then he may have sort 'non-professional' help - not wanting his daughter to face yet another hospital stay.
2)The guiltiers NEVER offer up a reason WHY Sheila's prints were found on the shot gun - perhaps Nickos would like to offer an explanation why ONLY Sheila's and Nevill's prints were found?
Absolute rubbish! Only a danger to herself - unbelievable, so leave her alone, on her own, having gone crazy with a loaded gun - this thinking is off the planet - He would have tried to disarm her.
But this again is irrelevant to me as Nevill never left Sheila alone with a gun, or made a phone call to Bamber - as they were all dead!
As for your second point, why should we give you an explanation why Sheilas prints were found on the SHOTGUN (as opposed to the rifle).
You give us your explanation and I will reply.
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I have condemned Julie for that,or any other interested parties who stood to gain if the verdict went the other way for that matter..
I don't really condem Julie for this. It is how things are done in high profile trials. The press would have hounded her. If she ignored them they would have hounded her mother & friends.
She was naturally quite pretty but looked slutty in the article. Mind you it was the NOTW.
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Only in your scenario (and no need to shout) - there was no call, so how could they be killed after it? - I believe all the family (including Sheila) were killed well before 3am by Bamber.
I cannot, and simply will not, accept that Nevill would have left an emotional girl with a loaded gun - I am gob smacked that anyone can accept this.
Or that anyone can accept Nevill asking his son over to face an armed person - that has gone crazy - surely you must see my point here.
Nevill would have disarmed Sheila first (if any of this happened of course which it didn't) protecting her not only from herself first, but also all those apparently still alive (which of course they weren't)
The whole story from Bamber is made up, and it's clear to me at least that it is due to the points I have raised on this subject, plus there is no proof to corroborate his story - so game over - Bamber stays in! :P
I have said several times there was no call from Neville & gave 19 reasons why Neville would not phone Jeremy. The judge called the alledged phone call mysterious.
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Doesn't this cast doubt on the rest of the case in your opinion?
Once you accept that it is not a one gun crime then surely the rest of the prosecution case melts away .
So much of the prosecution case relies on the killings being a one gun crime that once you accept there was more than one gun used that night the prosecution falls apart . It also gives a more sinister twist to Antony Pargeter's contradictory statements regarding the whereabouts of his own rifle that night . It certainly at least hints towards collusion between AP and EP to be able to present the one gun crime scenario upon which they relied in court .
Does the fabricated ballistic evidence not raise further and disturbing questions to challenge your views on the case ?
Isn't this also the stance of the defence - I don't recall them putting up a multi-gun counter scenario.
You can't simply blame a one gun scenario on the prosecution.
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Isn't this also the stance of the defence - I don't recall them putting up a multi-gun counter scenario.
You can't simply blame a one gun scenario on the prosecution.
Who else can you blame it on ?
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None of the things you have mentioned regarding Sheila make her a murderer or prove Sheila to be a murderer. On the other side it is often stated Jeremy's arrogance, greed and behaviour post events do not make him a murderer. However, in both cases they may provide some clues.
I have re stated tonight if what Mike says he has is true then there is categorical physical proof Jeremy could not have committed the murders which means it must have been Sheila. However, for some unknown reason Mike will not or does not want to physically reveal or share what he says he has alleged he has in his possession.
Currently and consistently, I believe the answer as to whom committed the murdres lies in the timing and the sequence of the telephone calls. Such events all occured before any silencers were found and do not involve any relatives. For me Jeremy's explanations of these events remains inconsistent with both a number of other independent witness statements and the physical telephone technology that was in place at both the telephone exchange and WHF / Goldhanger at the time.
As soon as Jeremy made contact with the police on the morning of 7th August 1985 the murders could only have heavily involved Jeremy or Sheila.
Jeremy got his defence in first when he specifically names Sheila to the police and outside world.
Curious Hi, good to hear from you again.
Let's be clear, Mike has no such evidence - it's simply a ruse.
If he has got it then show it.
If he hasn't (which he hasn't) let's just drop it!
See my strap line below ;)
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Who else can you blame it on ?
The boogie!!
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Yeah you have said that about a million times now, you don't believe the call took place and that Jeremy is guilty. I think we all got that. As for me and quite a few others - we do believe he got the call and that he's not guilty!! End of argument really! However, if his guilt is 'all' so crystal clear, I don't understand why you're here?
Well if I keep repeating it it might sink in: however you have made up your mind and I have mine.
You keep repeating yourself about his innocence, and I don't see why I can't keep repeating myself about his guilt - over and out - you don't have to reply ::)
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You're AGAIN talking about what YOU might do and you're doing so with the FULL benefit of hindsight. You have no idea what Nevill would or wouldn't do and applying the outcome of events to the whole scenario. It may not have erupted into a life death struggle from the start - events may have evolved. You know no more than I do and so if my suggestion is 'absolute rubbish' so indeed is yours!!
I asked you the question about the shotgun, why shouldn't you answer it? Afraid so say that 'Sheila must have handled it'?
No, I am talking about what I believe a rational farmer (well most people) would do - you simply refuse to accept my rationale because it doesn't fit with your theory.
Afraid - what of?
If Sheilas finger print was found on a shotgun so what? - it's as meaningful as your palm print on the bible theory - it means nothing!!
You tell me what it means?
Maybe Nevill asked Sheila to move the shotgun during her stay at whf to a safer place in the house away from the twins; or
Maybe Sheila went to fetch the shotgun to repel JB whilst he was gunning down June?
JB kills them all and then replaces the shotgun where ever it was found - we can make stories up all day long?
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Do you know what IMO means ? Do you know what discussion means? Do you know what forums are for? No I thought not. ::)
Adam´s posts more and more come across as some kind of lobbying to smear Jeremy Bamber - he is writing in repeat as if he were paid for it. Perhaps he is.
Something significant in Jeremy´s case may come up soon. I think that is what it is all about.
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Adam´s posts more and more come across as some kind of lobbying to smear Jeremy Bamber - he is writing in repeat as if he were paid for it. Perhaps he is.
Something significant in Jeremy´s case may come up soon. I think that is what it is all about.
There's definitely something in the wind with him,Alias. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks it a bit " iffy ". The messenger,eh ?
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I have said several times there was no call from Neville & gave 19 reasons why Neville would not phone Jeremy. The judge called the alleged phone call mysterious.
Hi Adam,
I support your thinking and the 19 point list.
Some seem to not accept the obvious!
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Hi Adam,
I support your thinking and the 19 point list.
Some seem to not accept the obvious!
Hi Nickos :)
Where are these points on this thread.... :-*
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Hi Nickos :)
Where are these points on this thread.... :-*
Page 66.
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Hi Nickos :)
Where are these points on this thread.... :-*
Hi Patti, to save you looking..... :-*
Reasons for Neville not to phone Jeremy (edit: by Adam) -
1) Jeremy may not answer the phone. If he does it may not be for a long time. It was 3am. Jeremy himself said in the interview transcripts he slept 'like a log' that night.
2) Jeremy will not be over for a long time. He has to get dressed & drive over.
3) Neville is putting his son Jeremy in danger. Sheila has gone 'crazy' with a gun.
4) Neville was big, strong & had been in the army. As the head of the family his pride will make him want to resolve the situation. As Jeremy said, Neville would want to keep things private. If Jeremy knew Neville liked to keep things private, why did he phone the police ?
5) Jeremy & Sheila did not get on. Jeremy telling the police on the night 'I don't get on with her at all. I don't like her & she does'nt like me'. Jeremy also told the police on the night Sheila is a 'nutter'.
6) Jeremy has said himself that in 1985 he did not understand Sheila's illness. Neville would have known this & knew Jeremy may be insensitive in a serious situation.
7) Several people have testified that Jeremy hated his parents. Neville would be aware of this. Would Jeremy be bothered enough to drive over quickly, or drive over at all ? The police have testified that Jeremy was driving very slowly to WHF.
8) Having Jeremy there would make the situation worse. Barbara Wilson said there was often a bad atmosphere in the house when Jeremy was present.
9) Neville answered the phone that evening before 10am. He was apparently short & the caller said it sounded like she had interrupted an argument. Had Jeremy been upsetting people ? If so it is doubtful Nevill will ask him back over a few hours later.
10) Having more people in the house may make Sheila more 'crazy'.
11) Jeremy did not have a front door key (as far as I know). Was a 'crazy' Sheila going to let Neville answer the front door ? Or was Jeremy going to shout through the letterbox !
12) Jeremy was not known for being especially brave or macho. Certainly no more so than Neville. As mentioned Jeremy was seen driving very slowly to WHF.
13) According to Barbara Wilson, Neville knew Jeremy had broken into the caravan site & stole nearly £1,000. Neville & Jeremy's relationship at the time would have been very poor.
14) Jeremy claimed several years later that there was proof Neville phoned the police. The EP have never said they got a call from Neville. However if Jeremy is correct the police would be more experienced in dealing with this sort of situation. So Neville would not need to call Jeremy.
15) There is no time for Neville to make a phone call. Dial up phones are slow & the phone numbers in Essex are long. Jeremy may not answer for a long time.
16) Although Neville was proud, he was not stupid. In this serious situation if he was going to use the phone it would be to dial 999. Why ring Jeremy if the police were coming over ?
17) In the heat of the moment it is doubtful Neville will think 'let me phone Jeremy who will sort everything out'.
18) Jeremy had worked a long day at the farm. Tomorrow would be another long day. Neville knew Jeremy needed his rest.
19) Neville & Sheila got on well. If Neville could not contain her, Jeremy certainly could not.
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Thank you Nickos.... ;D ;D ;D ;D :-*
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Neville in the excitement may not have thought of 19 reasons.
He may have just thought of one or two of these. That would still be enough to stop him phoning.
Sub conciously he may have most or some of these reasons in his mind. Phoning Jeremy would never have crossed his mind.
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Phoning the police, maybe. But no one from EP have ever said they got a call from Neville.
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Could you not find 20 Adam lol I must reply to this I like a challenge.... :P
1) Jeremy may not answer the phone. But he might If he does it may not be for a long time. It was 3am. This can be argued against Jeremy himself said in the interview transcripts he slept 'like a log' that night.
2) Jeremy will not be over for a long time. He has to get dressed & drive over. He would in fact be quicker than the police.
3) Neville is putting his son Jeremy in danger. Sheila has gone 'crazy' with a gun. Not really at this point if this was the case Neville would need his son's support and would not want the police involved at all.
4) Neville was big, strong & had been in the army. As the head of the family his pride will make him want to resolve the situation. As Jeremy said, Neville would want to keep things private. You answered your question to the above If Jeremy knew Neville liked to keep things private, why did he phone the police ? Maybe he couldn't be arsed after his 12 shift at the farm
5) Jeremy & Sheila did not get on. Jeremy telling the police on the night 'I don't get on with her at all. I don't like her & she does'nt like me'. Jeremy also told the police on the night Sheila is a 'nutter'. Untrue in all respect...Jeremy was the one who took her home from CC's party. Shelia had visited Jeremy that day with the twins and sat with twins in the tractor like normal brothers do. This was in the statement of a farmhand who witnessed this.
6) Jeremy has said himself that in 1985 he did not understand Sheila's illness. Neville would have known this & knew Jeremy may be insensitive in a serious situation. True
7) Several people have testified that Jeremy hated his parents. There is also statements that contradict this Neville would be aware of this. Would Jeremy be bothered enough to drive over quickly, or drive over at all ? The police have testified that Jeremy was driving very slowly to WHF. He was told to wait for them.
8) Having Jeremy there would make the situation worse. Barbara Wilson said there was often a bad atmosphere in the house when Jeremy was present. This is possible but hardly cause to commit murder
9) Neville answered the phone that evening before 10am. He was apparently short & the caller said it sounded like she had interrupted an argument. Had Jeremy been upsetting people ? If so it is doubtful Nevill will ask him back over a few hours later. Can you prove that Jeremy was there when BW called? Was he not on the phone to Julie round about that time?
10) Having more people in the house may make Sheila more 'crazy'. This is possible
11) Jeremy did not have a front door key (as far as I know). Was a 'crazy' Sheila going to let Neville answer the front door ? Or was Jeremy going to shout through the letterbox ! tut!!
12) Jeremy was not known for being especially brave or macho. Certainly no more so than Neville. As mentioned Jeremy was seen driving very slowly to WHF. Correct Jeremy was not a brave person and did not enjoy killing animals did he.
13) According to Barbara Wilson, Neville knew Jeremy had broken into the caravan site & stole nearly £1,000. Neville & Jeremy's relationship at the time would have been very poor. We don't know this for certain.
14) Jeremy claimed several years later that there was proof Neville phoned the police. The EP have never said they got a call from Neville. However if Jeremy is correct the police would be more experienced in dealing with this sort of situation. So Neville would not need to call Jeremy. The calls cannot be proved, but I really do think that there was not enough pressure on BT to delve into the calls.
15) There is no time for Neville to make a phone call. Dial up phones are slow & the phone numbers in Essex are long. Jeremy may not answer for a long time. The phone numbers were the same in every County, surely lol
16) Although Neville was proud, he was not stupid. In this serious situation if he was going to use the phone it would be to dial 999. Why ring Jeremy if the police were coming over ? I think this was addressed earlier on?
17) In the heat of the moment it is doubtful Neville will think 'let me phone Jeremy who will sort everything out'. We don't know what he might have been thinking at the time.
18) Jeremy had worked a long day at the farm. Tomorrow would be another long day. Neville knew Jeremy needed his rest. No comment
19) Neville & Sheila got on well. If Neville could not contain her, Jeremy certainly could not. Again we don't know this and its pure speculation.
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Adam really!!! does not mean to say they did not get one ;) ;) ;)
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Caroline did the same thing you have just done Patti.
Neville would have to agree with you on each of the 19 points.
If he agreed with me on just one or two points, he would surely not phone Jeremy.
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Neville in the excitement may not have thought of 19 reasons.
He may have just thought of one or two of these. That would still be enough to stop him phoning.
Sub conciously he may have most or some of these reasons in his mind. Phoning Jeremy would never have crossed his mind.
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Caroline did the same thing you have just done Patti.
Neville would have to agree with you on each of the 19 points.
If he agreed with me on just one or two points, he would surely not phone Jeremy.
Adam, you will probably think me picky but Nevill Bamber was NOT in the army, he had been a fighter pilot in the RAF for a couple of years before being invalided out after breaking his back. He would not be trained heavily in one to one combat only enough to be able to handle himself if he came down in enemy territory and any experience he had was over 40 years before. So that part of that point is null and void I am afraid.
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Curious Hi, good to hear from you again.
Let's be clear, Mike has no such evidence - it's simply a ruse.
If he has got it then show it.
If he hasn't (which he hasn't) let's just drop it!
See my strap line below ;)
I do agree with you on that . But why in one statement does it appear that the family were told the same thing by the police? It would take me a while to find it - but it is in a statement.
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Caroline did the same thing you have just done Patti.
Neville would have to agree with you on each of the 19 points.
If he agreed with me on just one or two points, he would surely not phone Jeremy.
Caroline is a good girl like me, she also likes a challenge ;)....You can't categorically say Neville would not phone Jeremy....You don't know and neither do I..We do know Jeremy phoned Julie and she told him to go back to bed....and Jeremy phoned the police. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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number on page 249
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,497.msg8443.html#msg8443
for Nickos- The police tell the family how SC was found
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Caroline did the same thing you have just done Patti.
Neville would have to agree with you on each of the 19 points.
If he agreed with me on just one or two points, he would surely not phone Jeremy.
Adam I could think of 19 reasons why you should stop posting the same thing over and over again. But I guess that would not stop you either .You cant apply logic to free will - or even over someone elses mind
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Adam I could think of 19 reasons why you should stop posting the same thing over and over again. But I guess that would not stop you either .You cant apply logic to free will - or even over someone elses mind
LOL.............................
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Adam I could think of 19 reasons why you should stop posting the same thing over and over again. But I guess that would not stop you either .You cant apply logic to free will - or even over someone elses mind
I'm afraid Adam doesn't think that anyone else should have an opinion as to what went on at WHF.
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Caroline is a good girl like me, she also likes a challenge ;)....You can't categorically say Neville would not phone Jeremy....You don't know and neither do I..We do know Jeremy phoned Julie and she told him to go back to bed....and Jeremy phoned the police. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well as stated there are several reasons why Neville would not phone Jeremy.
Did Jeremy say Neville said 'Sheila's gone crazy & she's got the gun' ? This suggests either Sheila is firing the gun or is threatening to. Either way, Neville would be caught in the moment trying to resolve the situation. He would have no choice.
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Well as stated there are several reasons why Neville would not phone Jeremy.
Did Jeremy say Neville said 'Sheila's gone crazy & she's got the gun' ? This suggests either Sheila is firing the gun or is threatening to. Either way, Neville would be caught in the moment trying to resolve the situation. He would have no choice.
None of you 19 reasons are neccessarily true. It is just you guessing, nothing more.
Nevill (according to JB) said that Sheila had the gun, not that she was firing it. If she had been shooting, I think he would have said so in the call, not just "she´s got".
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Neville would also be fully fit at this time.
There was no blood on the phone & the judge said Neville would have difficulty speaking with his injuries.
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Alias think the Judge at Trial agreed with all Adam's 19 points ;D ;D ;D ;D if not he should have done and the Trial would have been over much quicker.
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None of you 19 reasons are neccessarily true. It is just you guessing, nothing more.
Nevill (according to JB) said that Sheila had the gun, not that she was firing it. If she had been shooting, I think he would have said so in the call, not just "she´s got".
Some of the 19 points are facts.
Neville did answer the phone around 10am.
People in court tesified that Neville hated his parents.
Jeremy did say Neville liked to keep things in the family.
Jeremy did phone the police.
Jeremy had worked a long day on the farm.
The caravan site was broken into. Jeremy had not been prosecuted at this time.
Jeremy said in court he had a poor relationship with June.
Jeremy may not answer a ringing phone.
Jeremy will not be over for a long time.
Jeremy did not have a key to WHF.
Neville was putting his son in danger.
Dial up phones are slow. The numbers in Essex are long.
Jeremy has said recently he did not understand Sheila's illness.
Jeremy may not answer a ringing phone for a long time.
Neville was big & strong and the head of the family.
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Neville would also be fully fit at this time.
There was no blood on the phone & the judge said Neville would have difficulty speaking with his injuries.
What else did your friend the judge have to say ?
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He was not very nice to Jeremy after the guilty verdict was said.
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He was not very nice to Jeremy after the guilty verdict was said.
Judges for the prosecution aren't known to be nice to those on the receiving end,no matter who they are.
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None of you 19 reasons are neccessarily true. It is just you guessing, nothing more.
Nevill (according to JB) said that Sheila had the gun, not that she was firing it. If she had been shooting, I think he would have said so in the call, not just "she´s got".
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Some of the 19 points are facts.
Neville did answer the phone around 10am.
People in court tesified that Neville hated his parents.
Jeremy did say Neville liked to keep things in the family.
Jeremy did phone the police.
Jeremy had worked a long day on the farm.
The caravan site was broken into. Jeremy had not been prosecuted at this time.
Jeremy said in court he had a poor relationship with June.
Jeremy may not answer a ringing phone.
Jeremy will not be over for a long time.
Jeremy did not have a key to WHF.
Neville was putting his son in danger.
Dial up phones are slow. The numbers in Essex are long.
Jeremy has said recently he did not understand Sheila's illness.
Jeremy may not answer a ringing phone for a long time.
Neville was big & strong and the head of the family.
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?????? you are joking :o. You have had answers - have you not worked out the case does not hinge on the call? Unless you are a physic you have no idea what he was thinking -do you?
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?????? you are joking :o. You have had answers - have you not worked out the case does not hinge on the call? Unless you are a physic you have no idea what he was thinking -do you?
Ohhhh!!! Is THAT what he keeps re posting for. I thought he was just looking for new ways of being irritatingly boringly irritating :D
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Responding to Alias saying 'none of the points are neccessarily true' .
They are.
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Responding to Alias saying 'none of the points are neccessarily true' .
They are.
You are posting them as resons for Nevill not to call Jeremy - that means that none of them are neccessarily true:
For instance, Jeremy did not have a key to WHF, so you claim that that might have been a reason fot Nevill not to call him. I say: you are guessing.
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Responding to Alias saying 'none of the points are neccessarily true' .
They are.
only in your mind >:(. strange t0 you think JB could get back to his house in double quick time after murders - but it would take him a long time to get toto do the return journey the same place to help his father. :o
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You are posting them as resons for Nevill not to call Jeremy - that means that none of them are neccessarily true:
For instance, Jeremy did not have a key to WHF, so you claim that that might have been a reason fot Nevill not to call him. I say: you are guessing.
They are facts. Neville may have ignored these facts & still phoned Jeremy. But it is very unlikely.
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only in your mind >:(. strange t0 you think JB could get back to his house in double quick time after murders - but it would take him a long time to get toto do the return journey the same place to help his father. :o
When did I say anything about double quick time ?
When someone is having an amazing & unexpected psychotic episode with a gun, 30 seconds is a long time. Jeremy is at least 10 minutes away if he left straight away & drove quickly. He didn't.
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When did I say anything about double quick time ?
When someone is having an amazing & unexpected psychotic episode with a gun, 30 seconds is a long time. Jeremy is at least 10 minutes away if he left straight away & drove quickly. He didn't.
But Sheila's episodes of psychosis can't be described as "unexpected" She had been hospitalized twice in 6 months for exactly that, and following her first stay, Dr F commented that because of the initial slow onset, the prognosis wasn't good. Despite this, she slipped through the net and her meds were reduced to what can only be described as a catastrophically dangerous level without ANYONE monitoring their effects. Because Dr F chose to disregard what she'd told him about her fears regarding her relationship with her children, it's possible to "isolate" into immediacy, what he said of her following her death, but if one adds in the variables that were conveniently left out, one sees a rather different picture..................and that's without taking into consideration the effects on her the last emotionally devastating 18 weeks of her life would have had.
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But Sheila's episodes of psychosis can't be described as "unexpected" She had been hospitalized twice in 6 months for exactly that, and following her first stay, Dr F commented that because of the initial slow onset, the prognosis wasn't good. Despite this, she slipped through the net and her meds were reduced to what can only be described as a catastrophically dangerous level without ANYONE monitoring their effects. Because Dr F chose to disregard what she'd told him about her fears regarding her relationship with her children, it's possible to "isolate" into immediacy, what he said of her following her death, but if one adds in the variables that were conveniently left out, one sees a rather different picture..................and that's without taking into consideration the effects on her the last emotionally devastating 18 weeks of her life would have had.
Good morning April,,there was no getting away from it that Sheila was a very sick woman. Made worse by the fact that far less was known about the illness than is now,though having said that,,we're not that further advanced regarding illnesses affecting the brain except that there have been improvements in containing certain conditions with up to date medications.
The biggest problem still remains for anyone who is suffering from psychological impairment is making sure that medication is taken regularly and as prescribed by the provider. As in Sheilas' case,this was being missed for whatever reason,,and I'll stick my neck out by saying that it was because of the side-effects that most medications carry,,then you have to take other products to counteract this. On top of being sporadic with her medication,Sheila also took opiates,which would add insult to injury because cannabis and cocaine don't mix with certain prescription medications.
We don't know how long Sheila had been taking cannabis and cocaine,,but they will have left their mark on the brain,,and most know that these patients are very clever at hiding the fact that all is well,as visually,they can look well,which is deceiving.
Those of us who know how psychologically unbalanced people act,,know that their moods are very unpredictable,as are their actions and they can change in a matter of minutes if they hear something that they don't want to hear.
As DF had said,,the turning point in the discussion over the childrens' welfare/futures,could/would have been the main cause of the catastrophic outcome.
Not one person in that courtroom had any idea of how seriously ill Sheila was,,and that latterly,prior to the tragedy,her condition had deteriorated,,something which was stated by the doctor. Sadly,there was no support for anyone.Neither was there any understanding about paranoid schizophrenia in general.
I should imagine that both June and Neville found it very difficult in dealing with Sheila,and their lack of understanding in a comparatively " modern illness " was beyond them.Both parents had been hard-working,,were getting on in years and were having to try and cope with not only the farm and its workers,but Sheilas' erratic behaviour and also lack of ability to see to the twins,,which would have been left to June. I would think that the strain on both parents would have been evident towards the end,,as mental illness alone is a lot to take on,particularly at their time of life.
I'd have said that things kicked off as soon as Jeremy had left.First with the arguing,,then we all know how it sadly ended.
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Was not aware I was back at school.
Having my posts crossed out & red marks put all over it. Find it a bit disrespectful to be honest.
Anyway. Most of my 19 reasons are also facts. As Jeremy put it, Neville couldn't have done it, wouldn't have done it & did not do it.
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Was not aware I was back at school.
Having my posts crossed out & red marks put all over it. Find it a bit disrespectful to be honest.
Anyway. Most of my 19 reasons are also facts. As Jeremy put it, Neville couldn't have done it, wouldn't have done it & did not do it.
I suspect it may be because you often give the impression that you haven't yet LEFT school.
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HaHaHa april you are sharp today my girl ;D ;D ;D we shall start putting Adam on the naughty step ;D
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?????? you are joking :o. You have had answers - have you not worked out the case does not hinge on the call? Unless you are a physic you have no idea what he was thinking -do you?
On the contrary: the purported telephone call is one of the pivotal points of the trial. If it occurred then Jeremy should walk free. If not it was the excuse Jeremy needed to get in on the act whilst using the Police as his alibi and it makes him guilty.
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Was not aware I was back at school.
Having my posts crossed out & red marks put all over it. Find it a bit disrespectful to be honest.
Anyway. Most of my 19 reasons are also facts. As Jeremy put it, Neville couldn't have done it, wouldn't have done it & did not do it.
Disrespectful,indeed ? That's rich coming from you !
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On the contrary: the purported telephone call is one of the pivotal points of the trial. If it occurred then Jeremy should walk free. If not it was the excuse Jeremy needed to get in on the act whilst using the Police as his alibi and it makes him guilty.
A pathetic alibi if he had been planning this all year? Surely not the "clever" man that he was purported to be.
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The housekeeper had called the phones the " musical phones " as one never knew where the phones were going to be plugged in from one day to another,and it would appear that the Chief Supt lied about having used it on the morning of the 7th. At the 2002 appeal,he'd denied having rang the Chief Constable that morning,,but evidence found in 2004 proved that the Chief Supt.Harris,,had indeed used the phone to call Simpson.
This phone, presumably,would have had blood on it,,unless the idiot wiped it before he made the call.
It was the morning of the search of the farmhouse.
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The housekeeper had called the phones the " musical phones " as one never knew where the phones were going to be plugged in from one day to another,and it would appear that the Chief Supt lied about having used it on the morning of the 7th. At the 2002 appeal,he'd denied having rang the Chief Constable that morning,,but evidence found in 2004 proved that the Chief Supt.Harris,,had indeed used the phone to call Simpson.
This phone, presumably,would have had blood on it,,unless the idiot wiped it before he made the call.
It was the morning of the search of the farmhouse.
I wonder who was responsible for the "musical phones" and whether this threw Nevill off his guard about there not being a telephone in the master bedroom? I have also asked myself why Pamela telephoned so late to what was after all a working farm,hence all occupants in the habit of retiring early.
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I wonder who was responsible for the "musical phones" and whether this threw Nevill off his guard about there not being a telephone in the master bedroom? I have also asked myself why Pamela telephoned so late to what was after all a working farm,hence all occupants in the habit of retiring early.
Never thought about that - actually a good question. Why did she phone so late? It is not late for me, but I get your point that it is late for a farming family especially during harvest time.
Has she ever said that she had some worries about her sister and her family that night? Maybe she had a hunch/premonition - it does happen.
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According to Jean Boutell,,it was nothing unusual to find the phones in different areas of the farmhouse.
The one which was found under the magazines,,jeremy knew to be working perfectly,,so no mystery there as far as he was concerned,he was just aware that it was in working order,so nothing suspicious there at all.
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I wonder who was responsible for the "musical phones" and whether this threw Nevill off his guard about there not being a telephone in the master bedroom? I have also asked myself why Pamela telephoned so late to what was after all a working farm,hence all occupants in the habit of retiring early.
I would agree with you that it was a rather unseemly time to make a (non urgent) phone call. One or two reasons come to mind. 1. It was an habitual thing between the families. 2. It was a call which was intended for earlier. 3. News of Sheila's disturbing behaviour had filtered through.
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A pathetic alibi if he had been planning this all year? Surely not the "clever" man that he was purported to be.
What other alibi could he get ?
He had probably sounded out Mugford when speaking about his plans. But knew Mugford would not help. A lookout for a caravan break in is one thing. ..
No other friends would get involved in something this horrific.
He could stay at a friends house & try to sneak out for a couple of hours without being noticed. That is risky. The locations of friends houses may also be poor.
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Hello Adam hope you are not expecting a gift of Caithness glass like steve you are getting a wooden spoon a very large one ;D ;D ;D Happy Days.
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Even if BT confirmed their had been a call from WHF to Jeremy, it could be Jeremy calling himself.
I understand in the 80's the phone at Jeremys house would ring until he got home & answered it.
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Adam yes it rang to different tunes this time of year Jingle Bells ;D
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Even if BT confirmed their had been a call from WHF to Jeremy, it could be Jeremy calling himself.
I understand in the 80's the phone at Jeremys house would ring until he got home & answered it.
He had an answerphone at Bourtree Cottage Adam. I think the BIGB have had the upper hand these past few days.
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He had an answerphone at Bourtree Cottage Adam. I think the BIGB have had the upper hand these past few days.
Jeremy managed to answer the phone before Neville could leave a message.
A pity as a message would have cleared him.
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That is an interesting point.
Where was Jeremys phone & how many rings did it make before the answer machine messsge came on ?
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On the contrary: the purported telephone call is one of the pivotal points of the trial. If it occurred then Jeremy should walk free. If not it was the excuse Jeremy needed to get in on the act whilst using the Police as his alibi and it makes him guilty.
well even as there is an apparent log showing a call from his father to the police - no one choses to believe that either - even though the words are different , the age is different and the times are different . So now after all these years unless the operatives come forward I cant see the answer to getting the proof. However the silencer which was the main point he was convicted on and the ballistics evidence, that is a different matter.
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Must admit I have never answered a phone at 3 in the morning.
No one I know will call me at that time. It is either a crank, wrong number or a sales person.
Jeremy said he slept 'like a log' that night. When I sleep like a log, nothing wakes me up.
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Must admit I have never answered a phone at 3 in the morning.
No one I know will call me at that time. It is either a crank, wrong number or a sales person.
Jeremy said he slept 'like a log' that night. When I sleep like a log, nothing wakes me up.
So now you are comparing yourself to Jeremy? :o So you sleep like a log and would not have woken up. Well that's that point proven then.
Whereas I would answer the phone at that time as I would think it might be an emergency. Funny how we are all different.
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He had an answerphone at Bourtree Cottage Adam. I think the BIGB have had the upper hand these past few days.
Why answer the phone at 3am if he had an answering machine ? Let the phone ring & listen to the message as it is being said. Once you realise Neville is in distress, pick the receiver up.
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Adam if this sales person is a female phoning you at 3 a.m. in the morning I bet I can guess she is not selling double glazing ;D ;D ;D ;D just hang up ;)
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So now you are comparing yourself
Jeremy sleeping 'like a log' still managed to answer the phone before the answer machine clicked in.
Rather than not hearing it or ignoring it.
A shame for Jeremy as a saved message from Neville on his phone would clear him.
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More bad luck for Jeremy.
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A lot of people were taken in by Hanratty. Even when the DNA matched his people said the DNA was contaminated. However the only DNA found was Hanratty's.
I doubt it. Hanratty had an alibi (that placed him elsewhere), but it wasn't believed. The main alternative suspect didn't have an alibi.
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Must admit I have never answered a phone at 3 in the morning.
No one I know will call me at that time. It is either a crank, wrong number or a sales person.
Jeremy said he slept 'like a log' that night. When I sleep like a log, nothing wakes me up.
Is your brain incapable of extending itself beyond your self?
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Jeremy does not seem the type to answer the phone at 3am in case there was a family emergency.
That is why he would have bought an answer machine.
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Jeremy managed to answer the phone before Neville could leave a message.
A pity as a message would have cleared him.
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Why answer the phone at 3am if he had an answering machine ? Let the phone ring & listen to the message as it is being said. Once you realise Neville is in distress, pick the receiver up.
But YOU can't. You're asleep. Nothing wakes YOU. YOU sleep like a log, so should it be an emergency, TOUGH!!!!!
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Jeremy does not seem the type to answer the phone at 3am in case there was a family emergency.
That is why he would have bought an answer machine.
grasping at straws springs to mind. It seems that you are very much in tune with his mind, very alike. You seem to know everything he thinks and every decision he makes. Its amazing.
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Jeremy managed to answer the phone before Neville could leave a message.
A pity as a message would have cleared him.
How do you know he switched it on at night?
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Any information on this April ?
Steve says Jeremy had an answer machine. Jeremy probably had a hi tec quiet phone rather than a loud dial up.
If it was in another room, how did a 'sleeping like a log' Jeremy get to it before the answer machine clicked in ? And how would he hear it ?
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Jeremy does not seem the type to answer the phone at 3am in case there was a family emergency.
That is why he would have bought an answer machine.
Not many posts back you were resenting being treated as if you were still at school. If you persist in convincing us that you are, you'll be treated as such.
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Why answer the phone at 3am if he had an answering machine ? Let the phone ring & listen to the message as it is being said. Once you realise Neville is in distress, pick the receiver up.
Sorry, but this is just silly!
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A saved message from Neville would have cleared Jeremy.
Bad luck or a curious coincidence ?
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Any information on this April ?
Steve says Jeremy had an answer machine. Jeremy probably had a hi tec quiet phone rather than a loud dial up.
If it was in another room, how did a 'sleeping like a log' Jeremy get to it before the answer machine clicked in ? And how would he hear it ?
You appear to be the one who believes he has all the answers, so go look. It's tiring in the extreme to search for information for you when all you're capable of is arguing with the findings OR asking puerile questions for which unless one was there, there can be no answer other than supposition.
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. . . there is an apparent log showing a call from his father to the police - no one choses to believe that . . .
We've seen it, but the jury never saw it. Its wording wasn't discussed at the trial.
Why answer the phone at 3am if he had an answering machine?
That's a reasonable question, but we don't know whether the answering machine was in use at the time. Jeremy seems not to have been asked about that and not to have made any comment about it either. Some people routinely disconnect their answering machine when they get home.
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You appear to be the one who believes he has all the answers, so go look. It's tiring in the extreme to search for information for you when all you're capable of is arguing with the findings OR asking puerile questions for which unless one was there, there can be no answer other than supposition.
It is a reasonable question. One you do not have the answer to.
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They are all reasonable points Adam makes. From what we know of Jeremy he couldn't wait to get away from the farm on a daily basis,his car always being described as speeding away from the farm. I would have thought under these circumstances even at 3am Jeremy would have been the type to wait for the caller to speak and then pick up,thus leaving some record of Nevill's call.
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steve when Jeremy arrived home from work he would turn the answering machine off until the following morning. IMO.
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grasping at straws springs to mind. It seems that you are very much in tune with his mind, very alike. You seem to know everything he thinks and every decision he makes. Its amazing.
Cluthing at straws ? Some answering machines click into action within three rings. Jeremy would have had to be awake to answer it in time.
Oh sorry he was. As he had already phoned Mugford. So why tell the police & courts Nevilles call woke him up ?
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steve when Jeremy arrived home from work he would turn the answering machine off until the following morning. IMO.
Why turn an answering machine off & on ? It will be permanently on.
If Jeremys phone was not in his bedroom, he did not receive Nevilles call.
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Adam I know people who turn their answering machine off and I know some who forget to turn it back on. Reader will explain he is the expert on phones etc.,
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Phone rings at 3am:
Some people hear it. Some do not.
People who hear it either ignore it or answer it.
Some people will let it ring & then listen to the message in real time. Either going back to sleep or picking the phone up while the caller is still speaking.
However Jeremy woke up instantly from a deep sleep, perhaps got out of bed to go into another room, then answered the phone before Neville had a chance to start leaving a message.
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steve when Jeremy arrived home from work he would turn the answering machine off until the following morning. IMO.
That's possible. He gave details of the television programmes he watched,so we know he did not fall asleep in his chair as some after a hard day's work are wont to do. Was the programme on miscarriages the trigger,with Jeremy recollecting Sue Ford's miscarriages and the children Jeremy never had,whilst Sheila had two installed at the White House that very moment. Did Jeremy reach for the cocaine as he steeled himself for that dastardly nocturnal journey and a way out of his current lifestyle which could only be endured at best through the ingestion of central nervous system stimulants,as he determined there and then that he would henceforth be master of his own destiny..
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Adam go and look and do not expect poor april to do all your research she has done so much for you already ;D
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They are all reasonable points Adam makes. From what we know of Jeremy he couldn't wait to get away from the farm on a daily basis,his car always being described as speeding away from the farm. I would have thought under these circumstances even at 3am Jeremy would have been the type to wait for the caller to speak and then pick up,thus leaving some record of Nevill's call.
Steve, nothing in the first part of your post in any way proves that Jeremy "couldn't wait to get away from the farm" MOST young men drive to fast because MOST young men like to show off. For the second part, I wonder just how many of us would have ignored a 3 am phone call. The timing itself suggests emergency to me, especially back then when cold calls weren't the accepted norm.
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Adam go and look and do not expect poor april to do all your research she has done so much for you already ;D
I thought people shared information on discussion forums.
Look at my 'judges summing up' & my thread yesterday. Lots of information I provided.
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That's possible. He gave details of the television programmes he watched,so we know he did not fall asleep in his chair as some after a hard day's work are wont to do. Was the programme on miscarriages the trigger,with Jeremy recollecting Sue Ford's miscarriages and the children Jeremy never had,whilst Sheila had two installed at the White House that very moment. Did Jeremy reach for the cocaine as he steeled himself for that dastardly nocturnal journey and a way out of his current lifestyle which could only be endured at best through the ingestion of central nervous system stimulants,as he determined there and then that he would henceforth be master of his own destiny..
The police found the information Jeremy gave on the TV programmes he said he watched were not correct.
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I thought people shared information on discussion forums.
Look at my 'judges summing up' & my thread yesterday. Lots of information I provided.
What do you mean? It´s just your opinion, at least the "judge´s summing up" - don´t know what thread you put up yesterday, so I wouldn´t know about that.
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Steve, nothing in the first part of your post in any way proves that Jeremy "couldn't wait to get away from the farm" MOST young men drive to fast because MOST young men like to show off. For the second part, I wonder just how many of us would have ignored a 3 am phone call. The timing itself suggests emergency to me, especially back then when cold calls weren't the accepted norm.
That's possible but to me Jeremy is in some time warp engendered firstly by his parents' lifestyle and then public school in which time seems to stand still. An answerphone would be a technological breakthrough of sorts for Jeremy,which is part of his foolproof plan to outwit everyone and escape the farming lifestyle to boot.
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That's possible. He gave details of the television programmes he watched,so we know he did not fall asleep in his chair as some after a hard day's work are wont to do. Was the programme on miscarriages the trigger,with Jeremy recollecting Sue Ford's miscarriages and the children Jeremy never had,whilst Sheila had two installed at the White House that very moment. Did Jeremy reach for the cocaine as he steeled himself for that dastardly nocturnal journey and a way out of his current lifestyle which could only be endured at best through the ingestion of central nervous system stimulants,as he determined there and then that he would henceforth be master of his own destiny..
Steve you've offered us so MANY triggers!!!!! Strange, when you think that we don't need to look for them with Sheila. They're glaringly obvious.
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steve from what I remember about young men of 24 the last thing they yearn for is children they do not like to be tied down and as I said earlier farmers from Jeremy's background like to sow their wild oats until they are about 30 then the children come along. It is also my opinion that young men of that age don't fall asleep in the chair at the side of the fire or TV that is a more mature mans trait in other words and old guy. ;D
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Steve, nothing in the first part of your post in any way proves that Jeremy "couldn't wait to get away from the farm" MOST young men drive to fast because MOST young men like to show off. For the second part, I wonder just how many of us would have ignored a 3 am phone call. The timing itself suggests emergency to me, especially back then when cold calls weren't the accepted norm.
A lot of people would ignore a 3am phone call.
A lot of people 'sleeping like a log' would not hear it.
A lot of people with answering machines would let it do it's job.
A lot of people would not get to the phone before the answering machine clicked in.
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april poor Jeremy driving too fast to get away from the farm then driving too slow not wanting to get back to the farm he cannot win :'(
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A lot of people would ignore a 3am phone call.
A lot of people 'sleeping like a log' would not hear it.
A lot of people with answering machines would let it do it's job.
A lot of people would not get to the phone before the answering machine clicked in.
And some people would Adam so it is a poor argument imo.
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That's possible but to me Jeremy is in some time warp engendered firstly by his parents' lifestyle and then public school in which time seems to stand still. An answerphone would be a technological breakthrough of sorts for Jeremy,which is part of his foolproof plan to outwit everyone and escape the farming lifestyle to boot.
Steve, at the time I was married to someone who just HAD to have every new innovation which came onto the market. Jeremy wasn't JUST out of school, he's spent enough time at NEETC to know ALL about the latest, must have gadgets that young men couldn't live without.
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Perhaps Jeremy did not receive a call from Neville ?
Judge Drake did call it 'mysterious'.
But Jeremy said he is innocent.
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april poor Jeremy driving too fast to get away from the farm then driving too slow not wanting to get back to the farm he cannot win :'(
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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steve from what I remember about young men of 24 the last thing they yearn for is children they do not like to be tied down and as I said earlier farmers from Jeremy's background like to sow their wild oats until they are about 30 then the children come along. It is also my opinion that young men of that age don't fall asleep in the chair at the side of the fire or TV that is a more mature mans trait in other words and old guy. ;D
But Jeremy's catchphrase was "let's make babies" and it was under his instruction that Sue Ford allegedly became pregnant,possibly not wanting more children after already having three of her own.
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A lot of people would ignore a 3am phone call.
A lot of people 'sleeping like a log' would not hear it.
A lot of people with answering machines would let it do it's job.
A lot of people would not get to the phone before the answering machine clicked in.
I would and do always answer calls in the night as I never know who in my family or friends may be in trouble and need help.
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And some people would Adam so it is a poor argument imo.
You think Jeremy woke up, got up & answered the phone before Neville could leave a message.
What bad luck for Jeremy.
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Adam have you got an autocue ;D ;D ;D
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A lot of people would ignore a 3am phone call.
JUST AS MANY WOULDN'T
A lot of people 'sleeping like a log' would not hear it.
JUST AS MANY WOULD
A lot of people with answering machines would let it do it's job.
RARELY, I SUSPECT, AT THAT HOUR
A lot of people would not get to the phone before the answering machine clicked in.
JUST AS MANY WOULD
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You think Jeremy woke up, got up & answered the phone before Neville could leave a message.
What bad luck for Jeremy.
As mentioned before we do NOT know if the machine was switched on or how long the phone rang before it switched to the answer machine.
You make far too many assumptions Adam.
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I would and do always answer calls in the night as I never know who in my family or friends may be in trouble and need help.
But Sheila was a 'nutter' who got everything for nothing, Neville 'ready to be put to pasture' & June a 'religious maniac' he never spoke to.
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steve when a man says lets make babies I know what is on his mind and it aint babies ;D ;D ;D it is just a polite way of you know what wink wink ;) ;) ;)
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But Sheila was a 'nutter' who gotveverything for nothing, Neville 'ready to be put to pasture' & June a 'religious maniac' he never spoke to.
As I said, you make too many assumptions, you quote phrases and facts from things you have read which may very well be no more than hearsay and then present it all as the truth.
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But Jeremy's catchphrase was "let's make babies" and it was under his instruction that Sue Ford allegedly became pregnant,possibly not wanting more children after already having three of her own.
I'm truly not certain what "pillow talk" between ex lovers can add to the debate. Things get said between the sheets which have no relevance to anything in the cold light of day.
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As mentioned before we do NOT know if the machine was switched on or how long the phone rang before it switched to the answer machine.
You make far too many assumptions Adam.
Well I asked if anyone had any information on this important issue. Susan said I should not ask.
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But Jeremy's catchphrase was "let's make babies" and it was under his instruction that Sue Ford allegedly became pregnant,possibly not wanting more children after already having three of her own.
I find that in bad taste Adam as Suzette Ford had a number of miscarriages when she was with Jeremy. Jeremy as an adopted child may very well have had a strong urge to have a child with a blood connection, in my experience that's quite usual and understandable.
It's a pity you turn all your arguments into a sneer imo
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A lot of people would ignore a 3am phone call.
A lot of people 'sleeping like a log' would not hear it.
A lot of people with answering machines would let it do it's job.
A lot of people would not get to the phone before the answering machine clicked in.
In my opinion and experience MOST people would answer a phonecall at 3am for the simple reason that it is an unusual time for a call and could be an emergency.
"Sleeping like a log" is just an expression and sleep varies from person to person. None of us know if Jeremy was easily awoken. It is a waste of time pondering this!
I don´t think a lot of people would let an answering machine do its job when the phone rings at 3am, same reason as the first paragraph. Besides, we don´t know whether Jeremy had turned off his answering machine, whether it was full or whatever. You cannot prove anything by this.
You don´t know how Jeremy´s answering machine operated. You don´t know whether it was on or off.
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Let's be generous & say the phone rang 5 times before the answer machine clicked.
It will take 3 or 4 rings until someone wakes up from sleeping 'like a log'. Once you realise the phone is ringing you then either ignore it, or check the time & put the light on while still waking up. Either way the answer machine has started working.
So why was there no message from Neville on Jeremys answer machine ?
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I find that in bad taste Adam as Suzette Ford had a number of miscarriages when she was with Jeremy. Jeremy as an adopted child may very well have had a strong urge to have a child with a blood connection, in my experience that's quite usual and understandable.
It's a pity you turn all your arguments into a sneer imo
That was Steves post.
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steve when a man says lets make babies I know what is on his mind and it aint babies ;D ;D ;D it is just a polite way of you know what wink wink ;) ;) ;)
That may be true,but Sue Ford is reported as having suffered three miscarriages so it's evident they were trying for children.
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Hi Maggie sorry I did not intend to turn the lets make babies into a joke but I just don't think Jeremy would have been ready or mature enough to be a Father and it was not long after he took a year out in New Zealand. I know so many young men of that age who become Fathers due to being careless and they are not ready to be tied down. But who knows had he become a Father how different his life would have been.
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But Sheila was a 'nutter' who got everything for nothing, Neville 'ready to be put to pasture' & June a 'religious maniac' he never spoke to.
Is this case close to you personally? You started out here by saying that you had an open mind, but progressively you spew more and more venom, which comes across as pure hatred of Jeremy, a man you allegedly don´t know.
It puzzles me. I have no feelings regarding Jeremy. I do not know him. I am not 100% sure he did not commit the murders, but most things tell me he did not. I might be wrong, he may have done it (with an accomplice for me to see it as possible at all). I don´t love him, I don´t hate him - he is a man who is possibly in jail for life for a crime he did not commit, and that is why this case interests me.
Don´t understand the venom.
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I find that in bad taste Adam as Suzette Ford had a number of miscarriages when she was with Jeremy. Jeremy as an adopted child may very well have had a strong urge to have a child with a blood connection, in my experience that's quite usual and understandable.
It's a pity you turn all your arguments into a sneer imo
I'm not sneering:in fact had Jeremy been successful at having children with Sue Ford it might have saved a good deal of heartache..
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Let's be generous & say the phone rang 5 times before the answer machine clicked.
It will take 3 or 4 rings until someone wakes up from sleeping 'like a log'. Once you realise the phone is ringing you then either ignore it, or check the time & put the light on while still waking up. Either way the answer machine has started working.
So why was there no message from Neville on Jeremys answer machine ?
It was turned off. Now, stop this.
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In my opinion and experience MOST people would answer a phonecall at 3am for the simple reason that it is an unusual time for a call and could be an emergency.
"Sleeping like a log" is just an expression and sleep varies from person to person. None of us know if Jeremy was easily awoken. It is a waste of time pondering this!
I don´t think a lot of people would let an answering machine do its job when the phone rings at 3am, same reason as the first paragraph. Besides, we don´t know whether Jeremy had turned off his answering machine, whether it was full or whatever. You cannot prove anything by this.
You don´t know how Jeremy´s answering machine operated. You don´t know whether it was on or off.
Jeremy had an answering machine. It would be permanently on.
An answering machine would be espescially benificial in the 80's at night. It would stop a phone continuously ringing.
Jeremy receiving a call from Neville when he had an answering machine makes it even less likely Neville made the 'mysterious' call.
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Perhaps Jeremy did not receive a call from Neville ?
Judge Drake did call it 'mysterious'.
But Jeremy said he is innocent.
Not much of an alibi is it? Silly Bamber. And after planning it for a whole year as well. ::)
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Jeremy had an answering machine. It would be permanently on.
An answering machine would be espescially benificial in the 80's at night. It would stop a phone continuously ringing.
Jeremy receiving a call from Neville when he had an answering machine makes it even less likely Neville made the 'mysterious' call.
You do not know any of this, yet you go on and on and on about it, It is getting tedious. I think we have all answered you on this point.
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That was Steves post.
Oh okay sorry Adam. ;)
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steve that is not true many males are careless and get their woman pregnant as a result of this. I would say Jeremy was just an immature boy and not ready to be a Father but as you said maybe if he had what a difference it would have made.
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It was turned off. Now, stop this.
I have never met one person who turns their answering machine off & on.
His answering machine was on. Read my post above. Neville would have to leave a message.
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You think Jeremy woke up, got up & answered the phone before Neville could leave a message.
What bad luck for Jeremy.
That's a good point actually. I wonder how many times Jeremy's answer phone was set to ring before being picked up? That I think deserves an answer. Anyone?
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Is this case close to you personally? You started out here by saying that you had an open mind, but progressively you spew more and more venom, which comes across as pure hatred of Jeremy, a man you allegedly don´t know.
It puzzles me. I have no feelings regarding Jeremy. I do not know him. I am not 100% sure he did not commit the murders, but most things tell me he did not. I might be wrong, he may have done it (with an accomplice for me to see it as possible at all). I don´t love him, I don´t hate him - he is a man who is possibly in jail for life for a crime he did not commit, and that is why this case interests me.
Don´t understand the venom.
Alias can't you see the venom comes from the very man you purport to defend? Sheila never said any such things about her relatives. Jeremy was a City boy,an outsider lucky to live in a low crime environment,which I see in the latest Halifax survey is a situation which pertains to this day.
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Hi Maggie sorry I did not intend to turn the lets make babies into a joke but I just don't think Jeremy would have been ready or mature enough to be a Father and it was not long after he took a year out in New Zealand. I know so many young men of that age who become Fathers due to being careless and they are not ready to be tied down. But who knows had he become a Father how different his life would have been.
You didn't offend me at all susan, I was just reminding Adam but I got that wrong as well because it was Steve's post. Oh well, just ignore me ;D ;D ;D
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Maggie OK we will pretend you are not there ;D
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You do not know any of this, yet you go on and on and on about it, It is getting tedious. I think we have all answered you on this point.
You have not answered me.
I asked which room was Jeremys phone in & how many rings did it take until the answer machine started working.
Also the type of phone he had.
No one answered except Susan who said I should check myself.
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Maggie OK we will pretend you are not there ;D
I;m sort of not Susan ;D ;D
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You have not answered me.
I asked which room was Jeremys phone in & how many rings did it take until the answer machine started working.
Also the type of phone he had.
No one answered except Susan who said I should check myself.
So why haven't you?
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Alias can't you see the venom comes from the very man you purport to defend? Sheila never said any such things about her relatives. Jeremy was a City boy,an outsider lucky to live in a low crime environment,which I see in the latest Halifax survey is a situation which pertains to this day.
Jeremy was a farmer´s son, a country boy, not a city boy.
I haven´t seen any venom from Jeremy - I don´t think he committed the murders. Can´t be 100% sure, but I cannot see how he could have done it. I don´t think I use much time "defending" Jeremy, just talking about aspects of this case. It is not personal for me as it seems to be for some of you here.
I think it is a possible GRAVE moj, that is why I took an interest in the case.
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Is this case close to you personally? You started out here by saying that you had an open mind, but progressively you spew more and more venom, which comes across as pure hatred of Jeremy, a man you allegedly don´t know.
It puzzles me. I have no feelings regarding Jeremy. I do not know him. I am not 100% sure he did not commit the murders, but most things tell me he did not. I might be wrong, he may have done it (with an accomplice for me to see it as possible at all). I don´t love him, I don´t hate him - he is a man who is possibly in jail for life for a crime he did not commit, and that is why this case interests me.
Don´t understand the venom.
good post- I agree entirely
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You have not answered me.
I asked which room was Jeremys phone in & how many rings did it take until the answer machine started working.
Also the type of phone he had.
No one answered except Susan who said I should check myself.
Really, we have no way of knowing, do we? It is hard to discuss something on which we have zero information!
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Adam I only said you should check yourself because I felt april was getting weary of looking up things for you and she needs a little rest ;D
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Alias/jansus I second that entirely ;D
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Alias can't you see the venom comes from the very man you purport to defend? Sheila never said any such things about her relatives. Jeremy was a City boy,an outsider lucky to live in a low crime environment,which I see in the latest Halifax survey is a situation which pertains to this day.
Actually, Steve, NO. Any venom appears to emanate from yourself. It appears that I'm not alone in my feeling that for you this is personal. We don't know what Sheila may, or not have said about her parents, but if we examine the life she seemed to want to lead and compare it with the life her parents wanted her to lead, I imagine that, like most young who are trying to assert themselves on the world, her view of them was less than favourable.
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We've seen it, but the jury never saw it. Its wording wasn't discussed at the trial.
That's a reasonable question, but we don't know whether the answering machine was in use at the time. Jeremy seems not to have been asked about that and not to have made any comment about it either. Some people routinely disconnect their answering machine when they get home.
Sorry I should have been clearer - I meant steve and adam chose to ignore those logs - or anything else that they chose ;)
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I have never met one person who turns their answering machine off & on.
His answering machine was on. Read my post above. Neville would have to leave a message.
Where is the proof his answer machine was switched on and how many rings it had ?
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Adam you have met one now ;D ;D ;D
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Jeremy´s phone was by the kitchen door downstairs - he says so himself in a radio interview from prison.
So that is cleared up - happy to help, and don´t come back at me, Adam, in atteck mode saying I don´t answer you.
More than that I don´t know. (just listened to the interview.)
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Jeremy´s phone was by the kitchen door downstairs - he says so himself in a radio interview from prison.
So that is cleared up - happy to help, and don´t come back at me, Adam, in atteck mode saying I don´t answer you.
More than that I don´t know. (just listened to the interview.)
Thanks for that Alias ;) I believe Jeremy's cottage was very small so he wouldn't have been far away from it even if he was asleep upstairs.
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Thanks for that Alias ;) I believe Jeremy's cottage was very small so he wouldn't have been far away from it even if he was asleep upstairs.
I was just about to write that - his house was tiny.
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Actually, Steve, NO. Any venom appears to emanate from yourself. It appears that I'm not alone in my feeling that for you this is personal. We don't know what Sheila may, or not have said about her parents, but if we examine the life she seemed to want to lead and compare it with the life her parents wanted her to lead, I imagine that, like most young who are trying to assert themselves on the world, her view of them was less than favourable.
Sheila went without protest to char for Ann Eaton at the behest of June. She was a good-natured,easily-led if sick young woman,rather vacant who liked to do her nails and look pretty. She wouldn't touch a gun in case a nail broke. We have several witnesses including James Richards,John Seabrook,Chris Nevill, not to mention Julie and her crowd who knew Jeremy's behaviour and attitude towards his family.
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apparently according to her friend and confidant she had a deep dislike of her step mother
Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend. She was apologizing to Tara for a religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously. During the call the phone went dead. Sheila suddenly became hysterical mumbling about the phone bugged. She became like someone possessed ranting and raving. She was striking herself and beating the wall with her fists.I tried to calm her but she did not seem to hear me...
(3) - I became extremely frightened not only for her but for myself...
(4) - She kept talking about the devil and god, and stating that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her...
(5) - I contacted her ex- mother in law and asked her to come around. This aggravated the situation and Sheila became even more violent and abusive...
so why do you decide to pick and chose the bits that you think fit your case?????
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Sheila went without protest to char for Ann Eaton at the behest of June. She was a good-natured,easily-led if sick young woman,rather vacant who liked to do her nails and look pretty. She wouldn't touch a gun in case a nail broke. We have several witnesses including James Richards,John Seabrook,Chris Nevill, not to mention Julie and her crowd who knew Jeremy's behaviour and attitude towards his family.
First question, Steve. HOW do you know she went without protest. Whilst it may have turned out favourably, I find it hard to believe that any fashion/NAIL conscious young woman would welcome being offered as a char for another family member. If she wouldn't touch a gun in case a nail broke, she sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to do housework.
I would follow that the only reason that we don't know what Sheila may, or not have had to say about her parents, is because nobody was asked. By the time it went to trial, Sheila had become the victim so it stands to reason that nobody would WISH to know anything which would cloud her reputation as a quiescent, but troubled daughter.
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Sheila went without protest to char for Ann Eaton at the behest of June. She was a good-natured,easily-led if sick young woman,rather vacant who liked to do her nails and look pretty. She wouldn't touch a gun in case a nail broke. We have several witnesses including James Richards,John Seabrook,Chris Nevill, not to mention Julie and her crowd who knew Jeremy's behaviour and attitude towards his family.
Why do you say Sheila was vacant? Is this because she was pretty Steve or just to reinforce the fact that her vacant appearance around the time of the murders was not unusual? I am sure Sheila had plenty about her as her natural family were intelligent, successful people. Unfortunately Sheila's illness was a tragedy in her life imo it began developing in her teens causing her problems managing her life and increasing dramatically after the birth of the twins.
Julie's 'crowd' were not close friends of Jeremy's but just aquaintances, they had no idea about Jeremy's real life and relationship with his parents. imo
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Jeremy had an answering machine. It would be permanently on.
Adam - you stated the above- as a fact- where is the proof??????
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jansus it says that on his autocue so he keeps reading whatever comes up that is why he repeats himself so much ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Sheila went without protest to char for Ann Eaton at the behest of June. She was a good-natured,easily-led if sick young woman,rather vacant who liked to do her nails and look pretty. She wouldn't touch a gun in case a nail broke. We have several witnesses including James Richards,John Seabrook,Chris Nevill, not to mention Julie and her crowd who knew Jeremy's behaviour and attitude towards his family.
This is very condescending towards Sheila. I think she was a lot deeper than you think and a lot smarter. You basically paint a picture of her as a babbling zombie-like idiot.
Posts like this make me feel sad for Sheila.
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Why do you say Sheila was vacant? Is this because she was pretty Steve or just to reinforce the fact that her vacant appearance around the time of the murders was not unusual? I am sure Sheila had plenty about her as her natural family were intelligent, successful people. Unfortunately Sheila's illness was a tragedy in her life imo it began developing in her teens causing her problems managing her life and increasing dramatically after the birth of the twins.
Julie's 'crowd' were not close friends of Jeremy's but just aquaintances, they had no idea about Jeremy's real life and relationship with his parents. imo
Well said, Maggie. She came from an intelligent, successful family, but pretty girls cannot be smart, can they?! <---- irony (not sure everyone around here understand irony. ;))
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Well said, Maggie. She came from an intelligent, successful family, but pretty girls cannot be smart, can they?! <---- irony (not sure everyone around here understand irony. ;))
Some of us are quite well versed in it, Alias :D
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Some of us are quite well versed in it, Alias :D
Yes, aren´t we just that! ;D ;D 8)
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apparently according to her friend and confidant she had a deep dislike of her step mother
Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend. She was apologizing to Tara for a religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously. During the call the phone went dead. Sheila suddenly became hysterical mumbling about the phone bugged. She became like someone possessed ranting and raving. She was striking herself and beating the wall with her fists.I tried to calm her but she did not seem to hear me...
(3) - I became extremely frightened not only for her but for myself...
(4) - She kept talking about the devil and god, and stating that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her...
(5) - I contacted her ex- mother in law and asked her to come around. This aggravated the situation and Sheila became even more violent and abusive...
so why do you decide to pick and chose the bits that you think fit your case?????
I am fully aware of schizophrenia(please get over that word along with the other 99% of the population). The salient point is statistically they represent far more of a harm to themselves than others and in my opinion Sheila falls within this category.
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I am fully aware of schizophrenia(please get over that word along with the other 99% of the population). The salient point is statistically they represent far more of a harm to themselves than others and in my opinion Sheila falls within this category.
I have absolutely no need to "get over that word" Steve. and I'll go a step further and agree with your "statistics" BUT having done stats, I'm more than aware of how they can be made to work, so whilst I can go along with sufferers representing more harm to themselves than others, it doesn't by ANY stretch of the imagination mean that they DON'T represent danger to others if they feel threatened, be it real or imagined.
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First question, Steve. HOW do you know she went without protest. Whilst it may have turned out favourably, I find it hard to believe that any fashion/NAIL conscious young woman would welcome being offered as a char for another family member. If she wouldn't touch a gun in case a nail broke, she sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to do housework.
I would follow that the only reason that we don't know what Sheila may, or not have had to say about her parents, is because nobody was asked. By the time it went to trial, Sheila had become the victim so it stands to reason that nobody would WISH to know anything which would cloud her reputation as a quiescent, but troubled daughter.
Much of it did come out in court,a tightrope the Defence trod so as not to blacken the Police's reputation. Sheila asked Ann to take a photograph of her so as to spare June's feelings. She discharged herself from hospital so her birth mother would not meet her in such a location.
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Much of it did come out in court,a tightrope the Defence trod so asnot to blacken the Police's reputation. sheila asked Ann to take a photograph of her so as to spare June's feelings. She discharged herself from hospital so her birth mother would not meet her in such a location.
Steve, "much of it" is nowhere NEAR enough when the judge reminded the jury that the perpetrator could only be EITHER Sheila or Jeremy. That being the case, EVERYTHING pertaining to Sheila SHOULD have been revealed, NOT just the sanitized bits and it seems there was as much reason for Sheila to be on trial, as Jeremy.
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Adam I only said you should check yourself because I felt april was getting weary of looking up things for you and she needs a little rest ;D
People either know something or they don't. I ask questions sometimes. It is a discussion forum.I do not ask anyone to look up things for me.
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my question 2586?
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Jeremy´s phone was by the kitchen door downstairs - he says so himself in a radio interview from prison.
So that is cleared up - happy to help, and don´t come back at me, Adam, in atteck mode saying I don´t answer you.
More than that I don´t know. (just listened to the interview.)
Kitchen door downstairs. Thank you.
That is very interesting.
Firstly it makes it even less likely Neville will call. He will know Jeremy is fast asleep. His phone is downstairs. If he does answer, it will not be for a long time.
Secondly there is no possibility Jeremy will wake up, decide to answer the phone, turn the lights on and walk downstairs, before the answer machine has come on.
Neville did 'Not' make the call.
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People either know something or they don't. I ask questions sometimes. It is a discussion gorum.I do not ask anyone to look up things for me.
Then why point out that you've not received an answer? Can you not accept that maybe NO answer means precisely that and you're not required to keep re posting as a reminder.
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Kitchen door downstairs. Thank you.
That is very interesting.
Firstly it makes it even less likely Neville will call. He will know Jeremy is fast asleep. His phone is downstairs. If he does answer, it will not be for a long time.
Secondly there is no possibility Jeremy will wake up, decide to answer the phone, turn the lights on and walk downstairs, before the answer machine has come on.
Neville did 'Not' make the call.
But this is only what's going on in YOUR mind. You CANNOT know what others do/think.
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Then why point out that you've not received an answer? Can you not accept that maybe NO answer means precisely that and you're not required to keep re posting as a reminder.
Another poster said all my questions had been answered. None had.
One has been answered recently - the location of Jeremys phone.
Does anyone know how many rings it had until the answer machine came on. Also whether it was a loud or quiet phone. I am not asking anyone to research for it.
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Another poster said all my questions had been answered. None had.
One has been answered recently - the location of Jeremys phone.
Does anyone know how many rings it had until the answer machine came on. Also whether it was a loud or quiet phone. I am not asking anyone to research for it.
But you ARE pushing your luck!!!!!!!!!!
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But this is only what's going on in YOUR mind. You CANNOT know what others do/think.
Come on April.
Jeremy has a phone downstairs. If he has a trendy quiet phone & his bedroom door is shut, he will not hear it.
If he does hear it, there is no way he will reach it before Neville has started or even finished his message.
So why was there no message ?
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Another poster said all my questions had been answered. None had.
One has been answered recently - the location of Jeremys phone.
Does anyone know how many rings it had until the answer machine came on. Also whether it was a loud or quiet phone. I am not asking anyone to research for it.
OK, now I am getting seriously peed off! How the f#%&" would we know that?! What is wrong with you? Why don´t you write to Jeremy and ask him, I´ve been told he answers all letters, now leave us alone with your stupid questions!
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OK, now I am getting seriously peed off! How the f#%&" would we know that?! What is wrong with you? Why don´t you write to Jeremy and ask him, I´ve been told he answers all letters, now leave us alone with your stupid questions!
This is a Jeremy Bamber forum. People know things I don't & vice versa.
It is extremley important.
The fact that Jeremy had an answer phone & his phone was downstairs means it is even less likely Neville phoned him.
Jeremy has been lying for 28 years.
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This is a Jeremy Bamber forum. People know things I don't & vice versa.
It is extremley important.
The fact that Jeremy had an answer phone & his phone was downstairs means it is even less likely Neville phoned him.
Jeremy has been lying for 28 years.
Write to him and ask him. You know very well that asking us is moot and that no one here knows how long or how loud Jeremy´s phone rang before it went to answering machine, IF AM was on, IF perhaps it was full and could not take more messages.
Ask him, stop asking us, I am sure he will answer you. Happy to help.
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I am fully aware of schizophrenia(please get over that word along with the other 99% of the population). The salient point is statistically they represent far more of a harm to themselves than others and in my opinion Sheila falls within this category.
Why? She could equally fall into the other category? That is the problem with schitzophrenia isn't it, the fact that no one knows how they react?
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Come on April.
Jeremy has a phone downstairs. If he has a trendy quiet phone & his bedroom door is shut, he will not hear it.
If he does hear it, there is no way he will reach it before Neville has started or even finished his message.
So why was there no message ?
Well, firstly we're talking about 1985 and I had no trouble in hearing my downstairs phone prior to the "luxury" of having one in the bedroom. I don't recall having the option of a "trendy quiet" phone. I slept with the bedroom door open because old cottages become extremely hot in high summer.
Your argument is entirely hypothetical because you're ASSUMING and to make any part of it fit, ALL your assumptions will have to fall into place.
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Jeremys answer machine will be permanently on. Turning an answering machine off & on. Ridiculous.
However if questioned Jeremy will say it was off as he would not be able to explain why there was no message.
So how many rings would Neville let the phone ring for without getting an answer ? Ten, eight, fifty ? Not forgetting Sheila has 'gone crazy & has got the gun'.
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Well, firstly we're talking about 1985 and I had no trouble in hearing my downstairs phone prior to the "luxury" of having one in the bedroom. I don't recall having the option of a "trendy quiet" phone. I slept with the bedroom door open because old cottages become extremely hot in high summer.
Your argument is entirely hypothetical because you're ASSUMING and to make any part of it fit, ALL your assumptions will have to fall into place.
"trendy quiet phone"... Almost sounds like someone jealous Jeremy...
What is a "trendy quiet phone" anyway - how did they sound back in the eighties? LOL I AM laughing now actually! ;D
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Come on April.
Jeremy has a phone downstairs. If he has a trendy quiet phone & his bedroom door is shut, he will not hear it.
If he does hear it, there is no way he will reach it before Neville has started or even finished his message.
So why was there no message ?
I wonder why the question referring to the answer phone was not asked in court? Was it that there was nothing on it? Or was it that there was something on it yet the prosecution held that evidence back?
The reason that I am curious is that if there was nothing on the answering machine and that was confirmed in court then the judge would not have referred to it as the "mysterious" phone call. For they would have known for sure that he did not receive that call.
Why then didn't they present the answering machine as evidence? For Jeremy could have been cross examined about whether it was on or off. But if it was on as you suggest, then why was this not stated in court?
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Well, firstly we're talking about 1985 and I had no trouble in hearing my downstairs phone prior to the "luxury" of having one in the bedroom. I don't recall having the option of a "trendy quiet" phone. I slept with the bedroom door open because old cottages become extremely hot in high summer.
Your argument is entirely hypothetical because you're ASSUMING and to make any part of it fit, ALL your assumptions will have to fall into place.
That is right. I will not assume unless I can justify this.
To be honest, Jeremy said himself when interviewed by police he phoned Julie first. He then said he was not sure before eventually saying he phoned her afterwards. Why did he phone her at all ? Jeremy said 'no comment'.
This explains why there was no message on Jeremys answering machine. He was already awake after returning from WHF.
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"trendy quiet phone"... Almost sounds like someone jealous Jeremy...
What is a "trendy quiet phone" anyway - how did they sound back in the eighties? LOL I AM laughing now actually! ;D
Alias, in 1985, to my knowledge/memory, phones RANG and if they didn't we called the telephone people who fiddled around with them till either they DID ring OR they gave us a new one. House phones weren't "trendy" and cream ones were thought to be very chic. Mobiles which were just becoming popular were the size of house bricks.
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I wonder why the question referring to the answer phone was not asked in court? Was it that there was nothing on it? Or was it that there was something on it yet the prosecution held that evidence back?
The reason that I am curious is that if there was nothing on the answering machine and that was confirmed in court then the judge would not have referred to it as the "mysterious" phone call. For they would have known for sure that he did not receive that call.
Why then didn't they present the answering machine as evidence? For Jeremy could have been cross examined about whether it was on or off. But if it was on as you suggest, then why was this not stated in court?
I suspect Jeremy or his lawyer drawing up his WS realised that having a working answering machine on a downstairs phone would be disasterous for him. There is no way he would have answered the phone before the answering machine had worked.
So Jeremy would have stated the answering machine was unplugged. There is no way the prosecution can prove otherwise.
Plugging & unplugging an answering machine. Ridiculous.
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I wonder why Jeremy was not questioned by the police about the answering machine? Surely this would have presented an ideal opportunity to prove that he was lying about the phone call?
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I suspect Jeremy or his lawyer drawing up his WS realised that having a working answering machine on a downstairs phone would be disasterous for him. There is no way he would have answered the phone before the answering machine had worked.
So Jeremy would have stated the answering machine was unplugged. There is no way the prosecution can prove otherwise.
Plugging & unplugging answering an answering machine. Ridiculous.
But surely the prosecution could have cross examined him? It wasn't entirely up to his lawyer.
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Here is Jeremy´s trendy life in the eighties! HAHAHA, enjoy, Adam! ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptbJZ9HBw2k#t=28
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"trendy quiet phone"... Almost sounds like someone jealous Jeremy...
What is a "trendy quiet phone" anyway - how did they sound back in the eighties? LOL I AM laughing now actually! ;D
Jeremy did like to have the latest gadgets. Sun bed & a TV with Teletext !
On the murder night he was asked if he would like to take the dog. His reply 'I won't have that animal in my house, damaging my stereo equipment. Get rid of it. Have it put down. I hate the fucking thing'.
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Jeremy did like to have the latest gadgets. Sun bed & a TV with Teletext !
On the murder night he was asked if he would like to take the dog. His reply 'I won't have that animal in my house, damaging my stereo equipment. Get rid of it. Have it put down. I hate the fucking thing'.
You have been after me for not answering questions (which I had actually, just not to your satisfaction).
I asked you a question yesterday, I didn´t see the answer. I asked: are you and judge Drake friends?
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I wonder why Jeremy was not questioned by the police about the answering machine? Surely this would have presented an ideal opportunity to prove that he was lying about the phone call?
Hi Grahame I seem to remember the police took the answer machine and maybe also the phone away to examine. They checked up on it and then we didn't hear anymore about it. :-\
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You have been after me for not answering questions (which I had actually, just not to your satisfaction).
I asked you a question yesterday, I didn´t see the answer. I asked: are you and judge Drake friends?
We are not. But I think we would have got on well.
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Here is Jeremy´s trendy life in the eighties! HAHAHA, enjoy, Adam! ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptbJZ9HBw2k#t=28
HaHa!! Alias! That's about right ;D
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Not only did Jeremy hate his family. He hated Crispy to.
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We are not. But I think we would have got on well.
D'you think you would have appreciated some of his more bizzare behaviour?
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But surely the prosecution could have cross examined him? It wasn't entirely up to his lawyer.
Jeremy could just stick to his story. The answering machine was off & I went downstairs & answered the phone.
What bad luck his answering machine was off. If it was on, Neville would have left a message, proving Jeremys innocence.
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Not only did Jeremy hate his family. He hated Crispy to.
Crispy and Jeremy didn't get on I believe, Crispy used to bite Jeremy, he was by this time very old and may have been kept alive too long as some dogs are.
If Jeremy had killed 5 people in the farmhouse and he hated Crispy, surely he would have shot the hated little dog, if he was able to murder 5 people the way it's said he did then he would surely have killed Crispy without a second thought?
Think AE had him put down as she didn't want him either. Poor old Crispy was probably totally and irretreveably traumatised, it was possably the only option.
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Jeremy would not have bothered with the dog that night. He had more important targets.
When BT opened the phone line, all they could hear was Crispy barking.
Or was it Sheila ?
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Here is Jeremy´s trendy life in the eighties! HAHAHA, enjoy, Adam! ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptbJZ9HBw2k#t=28
But that was 1989. More relevant to Jeremy Bamber was Material Girl(November 1984) and Eurovision 1985("there's always a weak one,always a strong one") as he steeled himself for his dastardly deed and eyed up Anji Greaves.
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Modern answering machines stop recording if you pick up the receiver. If JB had a machine that didn't do that, he would probably have turned it off whenever he got home. Some answering machines didn't have an on/off feature, but they could easily be turned off anyway, as they all relied on mains power (via an adapter).
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Jeremy could just stick to his story. The answering machine was off & I went downstairs & answered the phone.
What bad luck his answering machine was off. If it was on, Neville would have left a message, proving Jeremys innocence.
But how do we know it had no message on it. The answering machine was not entered as evidence. So we cannot say if it was on or off?
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We are not. But I think we would have got on well.
Until he passed sentance no doubt and then he would be really nasty to you? ;D
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Jeremy would not have bothered with the dog that night. He had more important targets.
When BT opened the phone line, all they could hear was Crispy barking.
Or was it Sheila ?
I wonder why he was barking?
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But how do we know it had no message on it. The answering machine was not entered as evidence. So we cannot say if it was on or off?
The Police examined the tape I believe,though I don't have the link.I must have read it on here.
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The Police examined the tape I believe,though I don't have the link.I must have read it on here.
That could indicate that it was off that night then?
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That could indicate that it was off that night then?
Mike will know. I think it was his original post.
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But how do we know it had no message on it. The answering machine was not entered as evidence. So we cannot say if it was on or off?
So Neville did leave a message on it ? But Jeremy said he spoke to Neville.
The prosecution probably thought there was no mileage in introducing it. There is no way anyone can tell whether the answer machine was plugged in that night. Jeremy will say it was unplugged as it supports his story of answering the phone.
Unplugging answering machines. What next unplugging the washing machine & kettle when not in use ?
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When I had a plug in answer machine I never turned it off once.
If I am out, it did it's job.
If at home, I picked the phone up if I felt like it. Otherwise letting the answer machine do it's stuff.
If in bed I definatly would let the answering machine earn it's money. Mind you at 3am I would not here the phone anyway. Especially if 'sleeping like a log'.
There was no call from Neville.
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But how do we know it had no message on it. The answering machine was not entered as evidence. So we cannot say if it was on or off?
The police confiscated the answer machine and examined it, they said there was no message on it.
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Adam not sure Judge Drake would agree with you on that one ;D
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Adam after reading your posts from last night maybe you should start asking people for help as your posts are repetitive to say the least biased and inaccurate. Happy days.
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Why answer the phone at 3am if he had an answering machine ? Let the phone ring & listen to the message as it is being said. Once you realise Neville is in distress, pick the receiver up.
When the phone rings at 3am in the morning,it usually indicates one thing,,and that's an emergency/death. When I used to work nights,this was the time,sadly,that those who were expected to die,did so,as it's the lowest point,timewise, in a persons' life,particularly those who are unwell in some way.
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I do hope that those who oppose Jeremys' innocence saw the news this morning of the posthumous award given to the man responsible for cracking the Enigma Code,,thus avoiding two more years of the brutal WW2 war. Alan Turing was granted the pardon,after having confessed years ago that he was a homosexual,then who consequently ended his own life because " it was a deadly crime ".
I seem to remember that RWB made much of the friendship of Jeremy and Brett Collins,,and who took it upon himself to broadcast the fact to everyone,that it was another " deadly crime " against Jeremy,,and one which was added to all the other hearsay and tangled tales from one nasty man.
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Morning lookout
heard the news and I immediately thought of Jeremy and the insinuations he had to tolerate. The world has some very wicked people in it. Happy Christmas to you and pusskins xx
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Morning lookout
heard the news and I immediately thought of Jeremy and the insinuations he had to tolerate. The world has some very wicked people in it. Happy Christmas to you and pusskins xx
Morning Susan,,I too thought immediately of Jeremy and the way he was treated and spoken about,as though he was some sort of leper. Of course,Jeremy would just annoy everyone,knowing that he'd " upset and annoyed " them by dressing up and using make-up,,that was his way of sending his message across,instead of telling them all to bog off and mind their own business.
Yes,,the world is an evil place at times. A Happy Christmas to you as well,and to all the surrogate pets.xx
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When the phone rings at 3am in the morning,it usually indicates one thing,,and that's an emergency/death. When I used to work nights,this was the time,sadly,that those who were expected to die,did so,as it's the lowest point,timewise, in a persons' life,particularly those who are unwell in some way.
I would agree lookout that a phone ringing at 3am always seems ominous and the urge to answer is very strong.
Could imagine Jeremy hearing the phone and getting to it and answering while he was still half asleep.
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Maggie Jeremy would be half asleep at 3 a.m. but would answer the phone as would most other than Adam ;D He now has an answering machine ;D and an autocue ;D
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You're talking about what YOU would do. You obviously believe that everyone is like you - it could have been off for all sorts of reasons but if it was an integral part of the plan, all he had to do was remove it from view. However, there it was, still in place!!
There was a call from Nevill.
Adam seems to lack the ability to see beyond his own, somewhat limited!!! frame of reference.
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Dictionary definition of 'mysterious' -
Difficult or impossible to understand, explain, or identify.
Nevilles alledged phone call was certainly those things.
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Adam after reading your posts from last night maybe you should start asking people for help as your posts are repetitive to say the least biased and inaccurate. Happy days.
Just wanted to know how Jeremy woke up, got out of bed & to the downstairs phone before the answering machine started working.
No one had a definate answer, but apparently it is normal to unplug answering machines.
What bad luck for Jeremy as a saved message from Neville would have cleared him.
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Dictionary definition of 'mysterious' -
Difficult or impossible to understand, explain, or identify.
Nevilles alledged phone call was certainly those things.
Only in your mind! Not in ours . Go and get on with your Christmas .
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Adam get your autocue updated ;D ;D ;D Happy Christmas.
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Only in your mind! Not in ours . Go and get on with your Christmas .
It is not in my mind. It is in a dictionary.
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I do agree with you on that . But why in one statement does it appear that the family were told the same thing by the police? It would take me a while to find it - but it is in a statement.
The irony that I am prepared to accept is that maybe, and only maybe, Sheila was at one stage on the bed when the police entered the bedroom - this does not exclude JB from killing her, but adds to the scene confusion and the list of errors carried out by EP (i.e possibly moving her - as they did the rifle by their own admission).
However Sheila could have been on the floor and Chinese whispers were later misinterpreted by Ann (and others) as to where Sheila was first seen on entering the bedroom.
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None of you 19 reasons are neccessarily true. It is just you guessing, nothing more.
Nevill (according to JB) said that Sheila had the gun, not that she was firing it. If she had been shooting, I think he would have said so in the call, not just "she´s got".
Not necessarily true, but all to me are reasonably logical. We are all guessing to some degree on here.
And whilst we are on my pet subject, if Sheila was shooting there is even less chance Nevill would be on the phone (bearing in mind there is no way Nevill would be on the phone with a person gone crazy with a gun - sorry I just had to add the last bit :-[ - I hope Caroline has me on ignore ;D)
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The irony that I am prepared to accept is that maybe, and only maybe, Sheila was at one stage on the bed when the police entered the bedroom - this does not exclude JB from killing her, but adds to the scene confusion and the list of errors carried out by EP (i.e possibly moving her - as they did the rifle by their own admission).
However Sheila could have been on the floor and Chinese whispers were later misinterpreted by Ann (and others) as to where Sheila was first seen on entering the bedroom.
Hi Nikos )
I believe that at some point it was possible that Sheila was placed on the bed. The fact they photographed the floor under her body suggests she had been moved. It could well have been when the funeral directors had come to take her, or Sheila was moved to take the photograph. There is one if you read Macdonnell's report.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Not necessarily true, but all to me are reasonably logical. We are all guessing to some degree on here.
And whilst we are on my pet subject, if Sheila was shooting there is even less chance Nevill would be on the phone (bearing in mind there is no way Nevill would be on the phone with a person gone crazy with a gun - sorry I just had to add the last bit :-[ - I hope Caroline has me on ignore ;D)
I don´t believe Sheila had started shooting when Nevill called - that would have been difficult, I agree. And yes, of course I am guessing!
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You're doing the same thing ;D ;D
The print on the shot gun means nothing? You simply don't have an good enough explanation so you dismiss it..
Your 'repel' theory is just simply ridiculous but you know that!! You just can't explain it so you ridicule. You did the same thing with the bible print.
Yes, it means nothing, you now give me your reasons for why it means something?
You seem to avoid a lot of my questions, but I try to answer yours - just because you don't like or understand the answers is more your problem ;D
Yes the repel was just thrown in, but you don't dismiss my other theory of Nevill asking Sheila to move the shotgun (at anytime during her and the twins stay).
So let's hear your theory about Sheila's print on the shotgun?
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You support his 19 reasons? They don't even make any sense!! ;D ;D
Yes, they make sense to me - If they don't to you maybe its because of limited reasoning or common sense ;D ::)
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I don´t believe Sheila had started shooting when Nevill called - that would have been difficult, I agree. And yes, of course I am guessing!
Hi Alias, a balanced reply, thanks.
The forum, as you know, is simply a case of comparing theories and some get a bit heated.
Do you believe in the phone call from Nevill to JB (and the call from Nevill to EP)?
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Hi Nikos )
I believe that at some point it was possible that Sheila was placed on the bed. The fact they photographed the floor under her body suggests she had been moved.
It could well have been when the funeral directors had come to take her, or Sheila was moved to take the photograph. There is one if you read Macdonnell's report.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hi Patti x,
The scene was messed up a lot by EP, but this imo does not clear JB, but it can help those who are trying to get him released (of course imo all for the wrong reasons).
It's interesting that you refer to a picture of sheila on the bed mentioned in Macdonnell's report.
Your reference is to Sheila being placed on the bed (and a photo then taken), where of course some suggest the photo was of Sheila on the bed BEFORE she was photographed on the floor, giving rise to EP having stage managed Sheila when this is nothing of the sort.
To me this is clearly where some have got the idea that this picture of SC carries some weight in support of JB, when it's simply a shot of her taken later that morning.
Patti can you please cut and paste this part of Macdonnell's report? x
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Hi Patti x,
The scene was messed up a lot by EP, but this imo does not clear JB, but it can help those who are trying to get him released (of course imo all for the wrong reasons).
It's interesting that you refer to a picture of sheila on the bed mentioned in Macdonnell's report.
Your reference is to Sheila being placed on the bed (and a photo then taken), where of course some suggest the photo was of Sheila on the bed BEFORE she was photographed on the floor, giving rise to EP having stage managed Sheila when this is nothing of the sort.
To me this is clearly where some have got the idea that this picture of SC carries some weight in support of JB, when it's simply a shot of her taken later that morning.
Patti can you please cut and paste this part of Macdonnell's report? x
Hi Nikos :)
I never said that Macdonnell had said there was a photo of Sheila on the bed...What I meant was that there is a photograph taken of the floor underneath her body and it is possible that the body was moved onto the bed at this point....
Pay attention or I wont kiss you under the mistletoe :-* ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I don´t believe Sheila had started shooting when Nevill called - that would have been difficult, I agree. And yes, of course I am guessing!
The judge said Neville would have been fit when phoning Jeremy. The pathologist said with his injuries after being beaten, Neville would have had difficulty speaking. However Jeremy told Colin Caffel that Neville sounded injured when on the phone. So why was there no blood on the phone ?
In court Jeremy changed to saying Neville sounded concerned, not injured.
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Hi Nikos :)
I never said that Macdonnell had said there was a photo of Sheila on the bed...What I meant was that there is a photograph taken of the floor underneath her body and it is possible that the body was moved onto the bed at this point....
Pay attention or I wont kiss you under the mistletoe :-* ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes miss - sorry miss - now standing by my bed for said kiss - mistletoe in hand :-*
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I don´t believe Sheila had started shooting when Nevill called - that would have been difficult, I agree. And yes, of course I am guessing!
What was Sheila doing when Neville called ?
Holding the family hostage ? Er no because Neville was in the kitchen phoning Jeremy.
Shooting June & the twins ? Er no because Neville would not ring up Jeremy in that situation.
Locking herself in a room with the gun ? Er no, Neville & June would just wait outside & either talk her around, or restrain her when she opens the door. Anyway June was shot while her head was on the pillow.
So what was she doing ?
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The judge said Neville would have been fit when phoning Jeremy. The pathologist said with his injuries after being beaten, Neville would have had difficulty speaking. However Jeremy told Colin Caffel that Neville sounded injured when on the phone. So why was there no blood on the phone ?
In court Jeremy changed to saying Neville sounded concerned, not injured.
Hi Adam :)
Where does CC say that? I have just read his statement that is in the archives and he does not say anything like that at all....Can you expand on this please. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Yes miss - sorry miss - now standing by my bed for said kiss - mistletoe in hand :-*
Nikos ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I would agree lookout that a phone ringing at 3am always seems ominous and the urge to answer is very strong.
Could imagine Jeremy hearing the phone and getting to it and answering while he was still half asleep.
Maybe Jeremys tractor had missed a bit.
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Hi Alias, a balanced reply, thanks.
The forum, as you know, is simply a case of comparing theories and some get a bit heated.
Do you believe in the phone call from Nevill to JB (and the call from Nevill to EP)?
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent056.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
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Hi Adam :)
Where does CC say that? I have just read his statement that is in the archives and he does not say anything like that at all....Can you expand on this please. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Colin Caffell testified that 'Jeremy had left him with the impression that Neville was already wounded when he telephoned'.
On oath in the trial Jeremy had said he could not recall Neville being injured.
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It is part of the judges summing up.
In the 'judges summing up' thread.
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What was Sheila doing when Neville called ?
Holding the family hostage ? Er no because Neville was in the kitchen phoning Jeremy.
Shooting June & the twins ? Er no because Neville would not ring up Jeremy in that situation.
Locking herself in a room with the gun ? Er no, Neville & June would just wait outside & either talk her around, or restrain her when she opens the door. Anyway June was shot while her head was on the pillow.
So what was she doing ?
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Anyone ?
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Anyone ?
What? :)
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Grahame You called ;D
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Adam Yes I'm here ;D
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What exactly was Sheila doing when Neville phoned Jeremy ?
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The conclusion I've come to is that the relatives appeared to know an awful lot that went on ? They practically put the case together ! How was that,I wonder ?
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The conclusion I've come to is that the relatives appeared to know an awful lot that went on ? They practically put the case together ! How was that,I wonder ?
The relatives did not believe Sheila was capable of the murders. The only other suspects were Jeremy & Crispy.
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The relatives did not believe Sheila was capable of the murders. The only other suspects were Jeremy & Crispy.
Is that why CC said " she's finally done it ?"
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Colin Caffell testified that 'Jeremy had left him with the impression that Neville was already wounded when he telephoned'.
On oath in the trial Jeremy had said he could not recall Neville being injured.
Left him with the impression is not saying that Jeremy had told him that he was injured.... ??? 8) ;)
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The relatives did not believe Sheila was capable of the murders. The only other suspects were Jeremy & Crispy.
It was crispy. He barked orders all over the place.
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It was crispy. He barked orders all over the place.
Of course,Grahame,,the operator heard it. ;D
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. . . errors carried out by EP (i.e possibly moving her - as they did the rifle by their own admission).
On this forum, we have two photographs of her body on the floor, with not just the rifle (and her right arm) differently positioned, but the rest of her body moved slightly as well.
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Adam,Judge did not say Nevill was fit when he made phonecall. Prosecution alleged that Nevill received the facial shot upstairs and that would have rendered him unable to speak to anyone. Defence allege he received that shot downstairs 'after' telephone call. Nevill's facial injuries ie damaged jaw etc were due to a gunshot wound and NOT from any beating as you keep stating. Have told you this before,so stop posting inaccuracies!
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Adam,Judge did not say Nevill was fit when he made phonecall. Prosecution alleged that Nevill received the facial shot upstairs and that would have rendered him unable to speak to anyone. Defence allege he received that shot downstairs 'after' telephone call. Nevill's facial injuries ie damaged jaw etc were due to a gunshot wound and NOT from any beating as you keep stating. Have told you this before,so stop posting inaccuracies!
How on earth can they say a thing like that Tyler? No one knows when he received the facial shot.
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I have not read that Neville was not beaten. Jeremys supporters say Sheila did this after shooting & killing Neville in the head downstairs.
Neville had two black eyes. Damaged jaw, teeth, neck & larynx. The rifle had a dent on, probably from Nevilles head. The judge said the rifle caused some severe injuries to Neville. Not sure how three rifle bullets causes all those injuries to Neville.
I do not believe Neville was shot in the head upstairs. The pathologist in court said a head shot would make it not possible to go up or down stairs.
The four shots upstairs hit Neville in the torso. Another shot on the stairs hit Neville in the back. There was then a big kitchen fight between a fired up Jeremy who had run out of bullets & an injured Neville.The judge said Neville put up a fight for life. Jeremy had to stop him using the phone so there was no time to load.
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I have not read that Neville was not beaten. Jeremys supporters say Sheila did this after shooting & killing Neville in the head downstairs.
Neville had two black eyes. Damaged jaw, teeth, neck & larynx. The rifle had a dent on, probably from Nevilles head. The judge said the rifle caused some severe injuries to Neville. Not sure how three rifle bullets causes all those injuries to Neville.
I do not believe Neville was shot in the head upstairs. The pathologist in court said a head shot would make it not possible to go up or down stairs.
The four shots upstairs hit Neville in the torso. Another shot on the stairs hit Neville in the back. There was then a big kitchen fight between Jeremy (who had run out of bullets) & Neville.The judge said Neville put up a fight for life.
The butt of the rifle had a piece chipped out of it from either hitting Nevill, or from hitting a surrounding object.
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Grahame, the piece of wood from the butt of the rifle (Anschutz) - possibly broken off in the melee from striking the Aga, was this used to wedge the door, in front of which Nevill was slumped?
Has JB ever said a wedge was used for keeping that door open?
"THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS, EVER!" - MRDavies.
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Grahame, the piece of wood from the butt of the rifle (Anschutz) - possibly broken off in the melee from striking the Aga, was this used to wedge the door, in front of which Nevill was slumped?
Has JB ever said a wedge was used for keeping that door open?
"THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS, EVER!" - MRDavies.
We need a new wedge to keep this door open. Ah! I know. We'll just strike this gun against the Aga and use that. ;D ;D
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I have not read that Neville was not beaten. Jeremys supporters say Sheila did this after shooting & killing Neville in the head downstairs.
Neville had two black eyes. Damaged jaw, teeth, neck & larynx. The rifle had a dent on, probably from Nevilles head. The judge said the rifle caused some severe injuries to Neville. Not sure how three rifle bullets causes all those injuries to Neville.
I do not believe Neville was shot in the head upstairs. The pathologist in court said a head shot would make it not possible to go up or down stairs.
The four shots upstairs hit Neville in the torso. Another shot on the stairs hit Neville in the back. There was then a big kitchen fight between a fired up Jeremy who had run out of bullets & an injured Neville.The judge said Neville put up a fight for life. Jeremy had to stop him using the phone so there was no time to load.
So what happened to the blood, hair and tissue which would have been attached?
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So what happened to the blood, hair and tissue which would have been attached?
It's an interesting question April. There's no record of tests and results on the rifle butt, just a suggestion the injuries were caused by beating. Shots to Nevills head could have caused trauma injuries such as black eyes. Nevill was a heavy weight, if he fell heavily on his face he could have suffered severe injuries. :-\
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Would a rifle butt blow on the head leave any evidence. It is not like a knife going into someones flesh.
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Would a rifle butt blow on the head leave any evidence. It is not like a knife going into someones flesh.
I can't imagine why you think it wouldn't. It isn't unknown for a person to be killed that way. I could demonstrate on your head if you'd like me to prove my point.
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That would be nice.
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That would be nice.
If you've ever banged your head to the point where blood has flowed, and it doesn't require a knife, you'll know that the scalp bleeds very freely. Under the fleshless skin are a myriad of blood vessels which quickly give up their contents. I wouldn't have hit you very hard. I wouldn't have needed to.
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If you've ever banged your head to the point where blood has flowed, and it doesn't require a knife, you'll know that the scalp bleeds very freely. Under the fleshless skin are a myriad of blood vessels which quickly give up their contents. I wouldn't have hit you very hard. I wouldn't have needed to.
Don't bang my face and ruin my good looks.
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Don't bang my face and ruin my good looks.
That would be too cruel.
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If you've ever banged your head to the point where blood has flowed, . . . you'll know that the scalp bleeds very freely. Under the fleshless skin are a myriad of blood vessels which quickly give up their contents.
The "fleshless skin"? What other type of skin were you distinguishing it from? Anyway, the blood vessels in the scalp are mostly small, so though bleeding can occur quite easily, it's likely not to be very heavy.
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The "fleshless skin"? What other type of skin were you distinguishing it from? Anyway, the blood vessels in the scalp are mostly small, so though bleeding can occur quite easily, it's likely not to be very heavy.
Facial and mouth injuries bleed profusely.
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The "fleshless skin"? What other type of skin were you distinguishing it from? Anyway, the blood vessels in the scalp are mostly small, so though bleeding can occur quite easily, it's likely not to be very heavy.
You should have seen my scalp when I banged my head on a tap. Blood everywhere. ;D
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You should have seen my scalp when I banged my head on a tap. Blood everywhere. ;D
Ow! Ow! Ow! Grahame, i felt that!!
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The "fleshless skin"? What other type of skin were you distinguishing it from? Anyway, the blood vessels in the scalp are mostly small, so though bleeding can occur quite easily, it's likely not to be very heavy.
In most other areas of the body, with the exception of the shins, there is flesh. Shins, like the scalp, bleed freely when the skin tears and can be difficult to hold together. Having coped with tears in the scalp, I can vouch for how how long they can go on bleeding.
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In most other areas of the body, with the exception of the shins, there is flesh. Shins, like the scalp, bleed freely when the skin tears and can be difficult to hold together. Having coped with tears in the scalp, I can vouch for how how long they can go on bleeding.
Yeah April have had bright red hair myself :)
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The head needs a lot of blood for obvious reasons and there is something like a third of the bodies blood running through the head at any one time. Head cuts 'generally' bleed more than any other.
Your telling me ;D Got the t shirt on that.
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I would have thought that "flesh" is either muscular tissue or similar tissue, rather than skin, making "fleshless skin" unclear. There are various parts of the body where the skin is just above the bone, such as ankle, knee, backs of fingers, elbow, scalp, etc., and also areas where the skin is rather thin and easily lifted, such as the inside of the wrist. However, I fail to see why there would be a significant association with bleeding, which must relate significantly to the blood vessels that are damaged. I referred to the scalp, not the entire head.
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Your telling me ;D Got the t shirt on that.
And I just got it all over me when the doctor's surgery deposited the patient on me to clean up!!!!!!!!!!!
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I would have thought that "flesh" is either muscular tissue or similar tissue, rather than skin, making "fleshless skin" unclear. There are various parts of the body where the skin is just above the bone, such as ankle, knee, backs of fingers, elbow, scalp, etc., and also areas where the skin is rather thin and easily lifted, such as the inside of the wrist. However, I fail to see why there would be a significant association with bleeding, which must relate significantly to the blood vessels that are damaged.
Do, PLEASE, STOP splitting hairs (pun noted) You don't have to take my/our word for it. Please feel free to try and experiment for yourself.
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This is my hubby last year,a few hours after receiving a 5 inch head wound
Tyler, WOW!!!!! He must have been lucky to survive that.
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You should have seen my scalp when I banged my head on a tap. Blood everywhere. ;D
Quite a lot of blood pours from any head injury,no matter how small,,and sometimes looks worse than the wound actually is.
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Tyler, WOW!!!!! He must have been lucky to survive that.
Indeed April,he lost 3 pints of blood.Had to throw away the clothes he was wearing,they were soaked!
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Quite a lot of blood pours from any head injury,no matter how small,,and sometimes looks worse than the wound actually is.
Lookout, I felt sure that this fact was generally accepted. I fail to see the point that Reader is making.
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Indeed April,he lost 3 pints of blood.Had to throw away the clothes he was wearing,they were soaked!
So I guess that you, too, have difficulty in understanding Reader's point.
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This is my hubby last year,a few hours after receiving a 5 inch head wound
My word,tyler,that was a close call. Fearful.
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Hi april/tyler
I googled the subject and all the information that came up indicated that head wounds would result in heavy blood loss. Maybe we are misunderstanding Reader as he is so accurate in all his posts and I fail to see how he got this wrong.
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The "fleshless skin"? What other type of skin were you distinguishing it from? Anyway, the blood vessels in the scalp are mostly small, so though bleeding can occur quite easily, it's likely not to be very heavy.
Susan, thought you might be interested in this.
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Fell off a cliff outside our house in Iceland, quite a distance down, and I AM lucky that I survived that! I landed in some gravel on my forehead. I remember the blood streaming down my face and into my eyes as I ran up to the house. There was a trail of blood. LOTS of blood!
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april please tell Susan what Susan thinks Reader may be interested in. :'(
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Alias I am so pleased you survived your fall because I like you on the forum and would not have had the pleasure of your intelligent posts to Adam ;D and all the other entertainment you bring to this forum xx
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april please tell Susan what Susan thinks Reader may be interested in. :'(
Not QUITE certain what it is you're asking of me, Susan, but as you pointed out to me that Reader never gets it wrong I thought I you might be interested to see the one time he/she may have done, in which it's stated that blood loss from a scalp wound is unlikely to be heavy.
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april don't worry as I am not certain what I am asking of you either and I will just forget I ever asked you at all perhaps Reader will know what I am asking ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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april understand you now. See what happens when I spend all day drinking guinness and cider ;D ;D ;D ;D you would not wish to meet me under the influence ;) ;) ;) ;) just ask Maggie ;D
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Alias I am so pleased you survived your fall because I like you on the forum and would not have had the pleasure of your intelligent posts to Adam ;D and all the other entertainment you bring to this forum xx
So am I! However, I have stopped communicating with Adam, because it makes me dizzy to go round and round and round, so I will be quite boring for now. ;D
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Alias you could never never be BORING ;D yes I know what you mean think Adam is planning to poison me :'(
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So am I! However, I have stopped communicating with Adam, because it makes me dizzy to go round and round and round, so I will be quite boring for now. ;D
You are of course also invited over for a meal Alias.
You and Susan may want to attend together in case I also have a rifle.
Do you like Paella ?
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Caroline..a cooker fell on his head lol and yes,he is okay. It knocked some sense into him as he don't argue with cookers anymore. Seriously though,he was very brave as he is used to it from his years of getting into fights. He is a good boy these days now though!
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Caroline,cooker fell off the back of his truck whilst he was unloading at the scrapyard x
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Caroline,cooker fell off the back of his truck whilst he was unloading at the scrapyard x
Sounds totally horrendous tyler.
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Caroline,cooker fell off the back of his truck whilst he was unloading at the scrapyard x
Hmm..Yes..I see..A cooker ..."fell off the back of a lorry". ::) I had a load of buns and cakes that fell off the back of a lorry once. True. ;D
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Hmm..Yes..I see..A cooker ..."fell off the back of a lorry". ::) I had a load of buns and cakes that fell off the back of a lorry once. True. ;D
That would have been a softer landing Grahame ;D
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Not if they were 'rock buns' ;D ;D ;D ;D (yeah, I know!! :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ ;D ;D)
And slab cake ;D ;D
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And slab cake ;D ;D
OR pound cake ;D ;D
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Hmm..Yes..I see..A cooker ..."fell off the back of a lorry". ::) I had a load of buns and cakes that fell off the back of a lorry once. True. ;D
We used to wait for a coal lorry turning a sharp bend. ;D Then collect the spoils.
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Yes, it means nothing, you now give me your reasons for why it means something?
You seem to avoid a lot of my questions, but I try to answer yours - just because you don't like or understand the answers is more your problem ;D
Yes the repel was just thrown in, but you don't dismiss my other theory of Nevill asking Sheila to move the shotgun (at anytime during her and the twins stay).
So let's hear your theory about Sheila's print on the shotgun?
Hey Caroline have you been partying a lot - you seem to have over looked my post (when you have answered or made other posts).
So let's hear your theory about Sheila's print on the shotgun?
I won't give up ;) ;D
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Hey Caroline have you been partying a lot - you seem to have over looked my post (when you have answered or made other posts).
So let's hear your theory about Sheila's print on the shotgun?
I won't give up ;) ;D
Hmmmmm, let me think .......... Oh I know, she must have picked it up at some point? ;D ;D ;D ;D Hardly a revelation!! :)
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Hmmmmm, let me think .......... Oh I know, she must have picked it up at some point? ;D ;D ;D ;D Hardly a revelation!! :)
Wow that's quite a theory. Maybe she didn't pick it up, but just pressed her finger/thumb against it to fool us all ;)
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Wow that's quite a theory. Maybe she didn't pick it up, but just pressed her finger/thumb against it to fool us all ;)
Nah!! I'd say she picked it up -however, we would need to know how man prints were found. Just one? Or many? Or were there others that could have been hers but not clear enough to identify (as with the rifle)? ;)
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The jury would have discussed this to
Reasons for Neville not to phone Jeremy -
Jeremy may not answer the phone. If he does it may not be for a long time. It was 3am. Jeremy himself said in the interview transcripts he slept 'like a log' that night.
Jeremy will not be over for a long time. He has to get dressed & drive over.
Neville is putting his son Jeremy in danger. Sheila has gone 'crazy' with a gun.
Neville was big, strong & had been in the army. As the head of the family his pride will make him want to resolve the situation. As Jeremy said, Neville would want to keep things private. If Jeremy knew Neville liked to keep things private, why did he phone the police ?
Jeremy & Sheila did not get on. Jeremy telling the police on the night 'I don't get on with her at all. I don't like her & she does'nt like me'. Jeremy also told the police on the night Sheila is a 'nutter'.
Jeremy has said himself that in 1985 he did not understand Sheila's illness. Neville would have known this & knew Jeremy may be insensitive in a serious situation.
Several people have testified that Jeremy hated his parents. Neville would be aware of this. Would Jeremy be bothered enough to drive over quickly, or drive over at all ? The police have testified that Jeremy was driving very slowly to WHF.
Having Jeremy there would make the situation worse. Barbara Wilson said there was often a bad atmosphere in the house when Jeremy was present.
Neville answered the phone that evening before 10am. He was apparently short & the caller said it sounded like she had interrupted an argument. Had Jeremy been upsetting people ? If so it is doubtful Nevill will ask him back over a few hours later.
Having more people in the house may make Sheila more 'crazy'.
Jeremy did not have a front door key (as far as I know). Was a 'crazy' Sheila going to let Neville answer the front door ? Or was Jeremy going to shout through the letterbox !
Jeremy was not known for being especially brave or macho. Certainly no more so than Neville. As mentioned Jeremy was seen driving very slowly to WHF.
According to Barbara Wilson, Neville knew Jeremy had broken into the caravan site & stole nearly £1,000. Neville & Jeremy's relationship at the time would have been very poor.
Jeremy claimed several years later that there was proof Neville phoned the police. The EP have never said they got a call from Neville. However if Jeremy is correct the police would be more experienced in dealing with this sort of situation. So Neville would not need to call Jeremy.
There is no time for Neville to make a phone call. Dial up phones are slow & the phone numbers in Essex are long. Jeremy may not answer for a long time.
Although Neville was proud, he was not stupid. In this serious situation if he was going to use the phone it would be to dial 999. Why ring Jeremy if the police were coming over ?
In the heat of the moment it is doubtful Neville will think 'let me phone Jeremy who will sort everything out'.
Jeremy had worked a long day at the farm. Tomorrow would be another long day. Neville knew Jeremy needed his rest.
Neville & Sheila got on well. If Neville could not contain her, Jeremy certainly could not.
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For Droosie who mentioned the phone calls the other day.
Neville would just need to think of one reason not to phone. That is if he had time. After all 'Sheila has gone crazy (in her nightie) & has got the gun'.
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For Droosie who mentioned the phone calls the other day.
Neville would just need to think of one reason not to phone. That is if he had time. After all 'Sheila has gone crazy (in her nightie) & has got the gun'.
Have you also explained that VERY LITTLE of what you say -EVER- is documented fact, merely your own interpretation of it.
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If I ring someone. The phone may not be answered. Fact.
If sleeping like a log, with my phone downstairs. My phone may not be answered. Or if answered it will be after several rings. Fact.
Etc.
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If I ring someone. The phone may not be answered. Fact.
If sleeping like a log, with my phone downstairs. My phone may not be answered. Or if answered it will be after several rings. Fact.
Etc.
Thank-you for sharing that.
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I have just been thanked by April. Fact.
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Adam thought when we discussed this earlier we decided 5 rings as the phone was at the bottom of the stairs in a very small house or did you say 25 cannot quite remember. ;D
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Adam we are all thankful you share your thoughts with us ;D
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Sleeping like a log upstairs. Bedroom door perhaps shut. It would take me 50 rings. But my answer machine would have kicked in within 3- 5 rings.
Oh I forgot, Jeremy had turned his answering machine off.
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Adam I knew your amount of rings had a 5 in it somewhere ;D
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For Droosie who mentioned the phone calls the other day.
Neville would just need to think of one reason not to phone. That is if he had time. After all 'Sheila has gone crazy (in her nightie) & has got the gun'.
Thank you for clarifying that Adam, this thread is an interesting read. Lots of opinions and ideas.
I still lean to "guilty as charged" simply because Jeremy had the motive, the means and the opportunity. Plus a lot of what he said after just does not add up for me.
I don't want an innocent man behind bars but equally I don't want a man capable and willing of shooting two six year old children in the head walking free. I still tend towards guilt in Jeremy's case.
Granted the original police investigation was botched because...well they dealt with things differently then AND they thought they were dealing with murders/suicide.
Dunno WHAT to think about Julie Mugford....she and I are about the same age....I thik back to those times and wonder if I could have acted as she did...knowing that two children had been murdered. No I could not have done...I would have gone straight to the police if I thought my boyfriend had been guilty of such a heinous crime.
Then again she says he told her that a hit man did the killing......personally if I had been in her position I wold have been very very afraid.
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...personally if I had been in her position I wold have been very very afraid.
Apparently she was very afraid, of Essex Police.
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Morning Droosie
Julie has stated she knew for about one year prior to the murders that Jeremy intended to carry out this horrendous crime why did she not try and stop it. Julie was not afraid of Jeremy are you forgetting she tried to smoother him with a pillow and threw soap at his head in the supermarket not the actions of a woman afraid I would say. What was Jeremy's motive for slaying his family I would ask you. He was provided with a house, car shares in the caravan park due to inherit from Grannie Speakman think he had enough to be going on with don't you? Don't forget all his expenses were paid by his Dad and he had a good salary and a very good lifestyle.
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Thank you for clarifying that Adam, this thread is an interesting read. Lots of opinions and ideas.
I still lean to "guilty as charged" simply because Jeremy had the motive, the means and the opportunity. Plus a lot of what he said after just does not add up for me.
I don't want an innocent man behind bars but equally I don't want a man capable and willing of shooting two six year old children in the head walking free. I still tend towards guilt in Jeremy's case.
Granted the original police investigation was botched because...well they dealt with things differently then AND they thought they were dealing with murders/suicide.
Dunno WHAT to think about Julie Mugford....she and I are about the same age....I thik back to those times and wonder if I could have acted as she did...knowing that two children had been murdered. No I could not have done...I would have gone straight to the police if I thought my boyfriend had been guilty of such a heinous crime.
Then again she says he told her that a hit man did the killing......personally if I had been in her position I wold have been very very afraid.
Do not foget about the mountain of forensic & circumstantial evidence.
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Morning Adam
please elaborate on this MOUNTAIN of forensic evidence. Also this point is for Droosie Julie gave her sleeping tablets to Jeremy research this and see what he was going to do with them.
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1: Uncontaminated hands and nightdress completely free of any gunfire residue or gun oil. In fact no contaminants of any sort indicated that Sheila never handled the rifle let alone fired it 25 times in quick succession and reloaded its magazine at least twice.
2. Uncontaminated feet. Sheila's feet were completely clean and free of blood or any other contaminants evidencing the fact that she had been in bed when the attack took place and thereafter only walked on carpet. She could never have been downstairs in the kitchen that morning.
3. Uncut feet. Nevill Bamber was brutally attacked in the kitchen after having been shot several times in the upstairs bedroom. During the assault in the kitchen a glass lampshade was smashed leaving glass fragments all over the floor. Had Sheila taken part in that attack the soles of her feet or the soles of her slippers would have been pock marked with glass fragments. Sheila's feet were unmarked as were the soles of her slippers.
4. Only one fingerprint on the rifle evidencing the fact that Sheila did not wield it or fire it. Had she shot herself twice as alleged by some her thumbprint would have been on the trigger since she would have to had pushed it. It wasn't.
5. It is almost certain that blood and DNA belonging to Sheila was found in the sound moderator. Group 'A' human blood matching Sheila was recovered from the sound moderator in 1985. Later, advances in forensic science methods led to the recovery of DNA from inside the sound moderator which returned 17 markers out of 20 as a match to Sheila which was substantially better than the maximum coincidence rate of thirteen. Sheila could not have shot herself with the sound moderator attached nor could she have returned it to the gun cupboard after shooting herself twice in the throat.
6. Sheila was in good spirits, looking forward to the future as a family again. Her doctor and her ex husband stated that she was not capable of hurting her father or her children.
7. Two gunshots to her neck. Hardly indicative of a suicide especially when the first one would have incapacitated her. It is also noticeable that the gun and magazine were empty when found. Was that another coincidence that Sheila just happened to use the last bullet and had no others on her person?
8. No marks or injuries following a fight. Sheila was tiny compared to the 6' 2" Nevill. She could not have fought with him without sustaining some sort of injury or damage to her clothing.
9. Sheila had traces of cannabis in her system rendering her calm and docile, not violent or murderous.
10. Sheila had run out of her procyclidine which counteracts the effects of her medication haloperidol. Without this she would have been very shaky and uncoordinated (as described by various witnesses) and would not have had the control needed to get off 25 shots without missing one never mind trying to reload an awkward magazine in between time.
11. Sheila was unfamiliar with the rifle or any firearm for that matter and would have been unable to make 25 target shots.
12. If Sheila had shot herself in the throat and had remained conscious, there would have been blood in her mouth and throat with resultant blood spatter everywhere as she struggled to breathe. Her fingers would have touched the burning wound and ended up covered in blood as would have her face and neck. The blood trails running from this wound would have been smudged yet it was not. There was no secondary blood staining to her face or neck when the police initially found her. The inside of her hands and her finger tips did not have any blood staining. Sheila therefore was not conscious after the first shot and most certainly did not fire the second one.
13. Sheila's body was found on the far side of the master bedroom away from everyone. Had she committed suicide as some allege it is more than likely that she would have done so beside her children and not remote from them.
14. Perfectly manicured nails and all intact and unbroken. If Sheila had used the rifle and loaded it at least once she would have ended up with some nail damage. There was none.
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Thank you for clarifying that Adam, this thread is an interesting read. Lots of opinions and ideas.
I still lean to "guilty as charged" simply because Jeremy had the motive, the means and the opportunity. Plus a lot of what he said after just does not add up for me.
I don't want an innocent man behind bars but equally I don't want a man capable and willing of shooting two six year old children in the head walking free. I still tend towards guilt in Jeremy's case.
Granted the original police investigation was botched because...well they dealt with things differently then AND they thought they were dealing with murders/suicide.
Dunno WHAT to think about Julie Mugford....she and I are about the same age....I thik back to those times and wonder if I could have acted as she did...knowing that two children had been murdered. No I could not have done...I would have gone straight to the police if I thought my boyfriend had been guilty of such a heinous crime.
Then again she says he told her that a hit man did the killing......personally if I had been in her position I wold have been very very afraid.
Droosie hello. I think, whatever our stance we can agree that Julie was a girl who thought with her head rather than her heart. I imagine her agenda, despite perhaps being emotionally drawn towards teaching, was to become the wife of a wealthy man and I suspect that it was with this goal in mind she was prepared to put all other considerations aside. I think we must admire her for being one very cool cookie. Not only did she go to identify the bodies, explaining that she wanted to "talk" to Sheila to ask her what had happened!!! but having performed the task, after smoking a cigarette, she requested a second viewing!!!
Like you, I'd have run a mile from any man who as much as hinted a violence. I can only imagine that this cool headed woman could envisage a carrot so large and juicy that it kept her not only at his side, but in his bed. I've said MANY times previously that had Jeremy not dumped her -the seriousness of their relationship possibly being only in HER head- he would probably STILL be a free man. I think she made good her statement that if she couldn't have him, no one else would.
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Please see page 1 of the 'Judges curious coincidences' thread for circimstantial evidence.
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Adam I am awaiting to hear about this MOUNTAIN of forensic evidence it is only fair to a new member like Droosie you back your statements up with some facts she is going to get the wrong impression about the case.
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People speak as if Julie was with Jeremy for two years after the murder.
She was with him for one month. She was caught in the eye of hurricane. Press all over WHF, police & relatives around. Funerals to atend. She said she loved Jeremy & was under his spell. She probably did not want to believe he had paid Matthew Mcdonald.
Jeremy said in his interview transcripts that his relationship with Julie had been in decline for around six months before the murders.
Jilted love ? Julie would have been pleased to escape after being in turmoil after the massacre.
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Adam I am awaiting to hear about this MOUNTAIN of forensic evidence it is only fair to a new member like Droosie you back your statements up with some facts she is going to get the wrong impression about the case.
Derrr. I have just posted 14 points.
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Adam pity she did not escape earlier and report Jeremy's intended plans to the police or even Ralph Bamber strange how she waited till after he dumped her for another a woman scorned Adam dangerous enemy to have and Jeremy Bamber may have been many things but not stupid.
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People speak as if Julie was with Jeremy for two years after the murder.
She was with him for one month. She was caught in the eye of hurricane. Press all over WHF, police & relatives around. Funerals to atend. She said she loved Jeremy & was under his spell. She probably did not want to believe he had paid Matthew Mcdonald.
Jeremy said in his interview transcripts that his relationship with Julie had been in decline for around six months before the murders.
Jilted love ? Julie would have been pleased to escape after being in turmoil after the massacre.
So if as you say the relationship had been in decline even MORE reason why JB would not tell Julie that he was involved in the murders?!
Why would he make that monumental mistake when in your world he had been planning all this for months?
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Derr Adam the points you copied elsewhere are not related to forensic evidence just indulge me and name just 5 of them other than the dodgy silencer and are you forgetting what happened to the forensic evidence it was all BURNT against the Courts instructions why would this be Adam. Now I am awaiting just 5 of your points relating to forensic evidence. I am a very patient lady.
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Derrr. I have just posted 14 points.
Derrr - we have been through all those before - and a lot of them actually are contradictory to the experts in the case - and they can not all be telling lies can they?
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1: Uncontaminated hands and nightdress completely free of any gunfire residue or gun oil. In fact no contaminants of any sort indicated that Sheila never handled the rifle let alone fired it 25 times in quick succession and reloaded its magazine at least twice.
2. Uncontaminated feet. Sheila's feet were completely clean and free of blood or any other contaminants evidencing the fact that she had been in bed when the attack took place and thereafter only walked on carpet. She could never have been downstairs in the kitchen that morning.
3. Uncut feet. Nevill Bamber was brutally attacked in the kitchen after having been shot several times in the upstairs bedroom. During the assault in the kitchen a glass lampshade was smashed leaving glass fragments all over the floor. Had Sheila taken part in that attack the soles of her feet or the soles of her slippers would have been pock marked with glass fragments. Sheila's feet were unmarked as were the soles of her slippers.
4. Only one fingerprint on the rifle evidencing the fact that Sheila did not wield it or fire it. Had she shot herself twice as alleged by some her thumbprint would have been on the trigger since she would have to had pushed it. It wasn't.
5. It is almost certain that blood and DNA belonging to Sheila was found in the sound moderator. Group 'A' human blood matching Sheila was recovered from the sound moderator in 1985. Later, advances in forensic science methods led to the recovery of DNA from inside the sound moderator which returned 17 markers out of 20 as a match to Sheila which was substantially better than the maximum coincidence rate of thirteen. Sheila could not have shot herself with the sound moderator attached nor could she have returned it to the gun cupboard after shooting herself twice in the throat.
6. Sheila was in good spirits, looking forward to the future as a family again. Her doctor and her ex husband stated that she was not capable of hurting her father or her children.
7. Two gunshots to her neck. Hardly indicative of a suicide especially when the first one would have incapacitated her. It is also noticeable that the gun and magazine were empty when found. Was that another coincidence that Sheila just happened to use the last bullet and had no others on her person?
8. No marks or injuries following a fight. Sheila was tiny compared to the 6' 2" Nevill. She could not have fought with him without sustaining some sort of injury or damage to her clothing.
9. Sheila had traces of cannabis in her system rendering her calm and docile, not violent or murderous.
10. Sheila had run out of her procyclidine which counteracts the effects of her medication haloperidol. Without this she would have been very shaky and uncoordinated (as described by various witnesses) and would not have had the control needed to get off 25 shots without missing one never mind trying to reload an awkward magazine in between time.
11. Sheila was unfamiliar with the rifle or any firearm for that matter and would have been unable to make 25 target shots.
12. If Sheila had shot herself in the throat and had remained conscious, there would have been blood in her mouth and throat with resultant blood spatter everywhere as she struggled to breathe. Her fingers would have touched the burning wound and ended up covered in blood as would have her face and neck. The blood trails running from this wound would have been smudged yet it was not. There was no secondary blood staining to her face or neck when the police initially found her. The inside of her hands and her finger tips did not have any blood staining. Sheila therefore was not conscious after the first shot and most certainly did not fire the second one.
13. Sheila's body was found on the far side of the master bedroom away from everyone. Had she committed suicide as some allege it is more than likely that she would have done so beside her children and not remote from them.
14. Perfectly manicured nails and all intact and unbroken. If Sheila had used the rifle and loaded it at least once she would have ended up with some nail damage. There was none.
Hey Adam, I'll give you your due. When it comes to saturated regurgitating of tired, prosecution cliches... you da man. 8)
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Hi Roch you are forgetting Adam is a programmed parrot ;D ;D ;D
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Derrr. I have just posted 14 points.
Unfortunately, everyone of your 14 points can be challenged, most are no more than assumptions and some can be challenged due to recently discovered evidence. Any one can come to a conclusion based on their own or others assumptions then sift through to find any thing to prove their point ignoring anything which may query their fixed position.
think I'm wasting my time. :'(
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So if as you say the relationship had been in decline even MORE reason why JB would not tell Julie that he was involved in the murders?!
Why would he make that monumental mistake when in your world he had been planning all this for months?
Well he did not say he did it, but paid Matthew Mcdonald. If Julie went to the police with this story, Jeremy would know that Mcdonald would have an alibi. Which shoots down Julie's claim.
Julie's diaries & interview transcripts say Jeremy said he was 'watertight' & it was an 'open & shut case'. He told Julie the police will never believe her if she went to the police. Something she threatened to do at the end.
Jeremy thought he had committed the perfect murder. Jeremy being Jeremy had to boast to someone. He felt Julie was sufficiently under his spell. So much so that he rang her straight afterwards at 3am.
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Adam - it was reported by the relatives that the shower head was not in its normal position.
You do not Know 100% that SC was not wandering around the house when the police were outside or what she was doing. There is a video to prove that one of the policemen lied about the incident of seeing someone at the window - as he completely changes his story.
you do not know 100% about what the story was behind the black canvas shoes that were removed fromWHF .
you know there are photos showing some blood on her feet - you have seen the contradictory evidence about her hands with your own eyes.
you know there were witnesses to her having used a gun before.
Etc Etc etc.
you especially know about the two shots as you have been given expert evidence.
So why do you insist on repeating the same thing over and over again?
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Mugford 'did not' know Jeremy was intending to kill his family.
She knew he hated and resented them. However she always dismissed his plans as waffle. On TV Julie said Jeremy liked to say things to shock people.
Jeremy's silly plan to drug & burn the house down was thought to be not feasible. Even if Jeremy wanted to get rid of his family, Julie would have felt Jeremy was not clever enough.
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Well he did not say he did it, but paid Matthew Mcdonald. If Julie went to the police with this story, Jeremy would know that Mcdonald would have an alibi. Which shoots down Julie's claim.
Julie's diaries & interview transcripts say Jeremy said he was 'watertight' & it was an 'open & shut case'. He told Julie the police will never believe her if she went to the police. Something she threatened to do at the end.
Jeremy thought he had committed the perfect murder. Jeremy being Jeremy had to boast to someone. He felt Julie was sufficiently under his spell. So much so that he rang her straight afterwards at 3am.
but according to your previous posts he had been talking about killing his parents before - on several occasions - so the above does not even make sense - especially if the relationship was in decline. And why did it take 30 plus police interviews for this "truth" to come out? I don't believe for one minute that knowing all of what you say she knew she could go and identify those poor children knowing he was involved . And in the end it was not even her who told the police it was her friend. In which case she had no conscience and should have been charged with being an accessory.
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Adam - it was reported by the relatives that the shower head was not in its normal position.
You do not Know 100% that SC was not wandering around the house when the police were outside or what she was doing. There is a video to prove that one of the policemen lied about the incident of seeing someone at the window - as he completely changes his story.
you do not know 100% about what the story was behind the black canvas shoes that were removed fromWHF .
you know there are photos showing some blood on her feet - you have seen the contradictory evidence about her hands with your own eyes.
you know there were witnesses to her having used a gun before.
Etc Etc etc.
you especially know about the two shots as you have been given expert evidence.
So why do you insist on repeating the same thing over and over again?
Sheila did a lot between 3.26 - 3.48. Firing 26 accurrate shots. Beating Neville. Showering. Putting the silencer neatly away. Then shooting herself twice.
The judge said there were no bullet noises after 3.48 when the police arrived. Therefore Sheila shot herself beforehand. Or was murdered.
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No bullet noises? I thought it was reported by an "expert" that the noise from that gun would not have even been heard in the next room let alone outside ? Even with the moderator on? It was not a shotgun you know.
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Black canvas shoes ?
Anthony Pargeter said he saw the rifle with the silencer attached the weekend before the murders. If the gun was not used over the next few days, there is no reason to take it off. The silencer should stay on the gun anyway. It is used for shooting vermin, so why take it off ?
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The feet photos do not show any cuts, marks. Blood ? Not really.
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Black canvas shoes ?
Anthony Pargeter said he saw the rifle with the silencer attached the weekend before the murders. If the gun was not used over the next few days, there is no reason to take it off. The silencer should stay on the gun anyway. It is used for shooting vermin, so why take it off ?
So, where is your proof Anthony Pargeter is telling the truth? Why is Pargeter's word stronger than anyone elses?
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but according to your previous posts he had been talking about killing his parents before - on several occasions - so the above does not even make sense - especially if the relationship was in decline. And why did it take 30 plus police interviews for this "truth" to come out? I don't believe for one minute that knowing all of what you say she knew she could go and identify those poor children knowing he was involved . And in the end it was not even her who told the police it was her friend. In which case she had no conscience and should have been charged with being an accessory.
Please see above post on this page.
Thought Julie was being very kind identifying the bodies.
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So, where is your proof Anthony Pargeter is telling the truth? Why is Pargeter's word stronger than anyone elses?
Sorry. I forgot. The relatives all lied to frame Jeremy.
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Sorry. I forgot. The relatives all lied to frame Jeremy.
That is a pretty offensive remark Adam. All I am asking is why is one person's word more trusted than anothers, surely in a situation such as this all things are equally possible and should be considered because we don't know. We can assume but we don't know.
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That is a pretty offensive remark Adam. All I am asking is why is one person's word more trusted than anothers, surely in a situation such as this all things are equally possible and should be considered because we don't know. We can assume but we don't know.
I tell you what someone said (it is in Jeremys interview transcript). Because it does not supportJeremy you say he is not telling the truth.
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Sorry. I forgot. The relatives all lied to frame Jeremy.
Why wouldn't they? None of them could lie straight in bed. Here's some copy and pasting just for you Adam, albeit off-topic:
I told the police that one of the topics of conversation on the evening of the 6th of August 1985 was what could be done in the best interests of Sheila. DI Ainsley quoted me as saying “there was mention of foster parents along with other solutions.” He goes on to say “Jeremy is the only source of such a suggestion. . . he has been active in spreading this misinformation. . . . every person is agreed that this in an outrageous suggestion and would never have been suggested or entertained.” [by Sheila or the Bamber family]
When DI Ainsley wrote this important report he knew this was not true. Foster care had previously been arranged and statements had been obtained by Essex police but the jury was never to know about these. There were two separate foster families who had both given statements about their foster care of Daniel and Nicholas when Sheila had been unable to cope previously. These arrangements had been made with the aid of three different social workers who all made statements but none of these were disclosed to my Defence team at trial. During the 2002 appeal preparations a statement was disclosed to the Defence from a social worker named Lloyd who could not be traced. It is now clear that the social worker’s name was Floyd, the disclosed material made her last name unreadable, other copies now show her actual name.
DI Ainsley had full knowledge from these statements that foster care arrangements had been used over a number of years to assist Sheila in looking after the twins. So it is hardly surprising that such arrangements would have been suggested by my parents to help Sheila during a difficult time after her discharge from hospital.
Pamela Boutflour says in her 12th August 1985 statement that “June told me that she was very worried about Sheila.” And that “Sheila had no interest in anything including the twins. . . She would like me to see her and form an opinion about her health. . . I gathered Sheila was acting oddly.” Pamela was relating to the police the conversation she’d had with her sister June at 10pm on the 6th of August 1985. I had already gone home so could not have influenced my Mum’s call to Pamela. I could not have known what had been discussed during this call.
Barbara Wilson in her 12th September 1985 statement says that she phoned Nevill at 09:30pm when “he was not his usual cheerful self, giving short yes/no answers. I thought something must have been wrong and felt under the impression I had interrupted something possibly an argument by the way he sounded.” Again, I knew nothing of this call and could not have influenced my Dad’s behaviour towards the secretary or known about this phone call’s contents as I had already gone home. So, two independent witnesses had formed the opinion that all was not as it should have been.
The statements of social workers and foster carers would have exposed the false testimony told by Ann and Peter Eaton, Robert Boutflour and David Boutflour who had all said that fostering would not have been a possibility considered for Sheila. The family had had very little contact with Sheila in 6 years. Without having these statements my Defence team could not cross examine these people about the foster care issue. If they had done, the relatives as key prosecution witnesses and benefactors of the estate upon my conviction would have been discredited. Similarly if they had been questioned about the financial situation regarding the estate and the land which my father had purchased from Peter Eaton to help them when they were in financial difficulty, their motive not to tell the truth would have been clear.
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Morning jansus correct a rifle shot makes very little noise and that is a fact ADAM.
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I tell you what someone said (it is in Jeremys interview transcript). Because it does not supportJeremy you say he is not telling the truth.
I didn't say he wasn't telling the truth I am saying he MAY not be telling the truth. If I told you something by pm there is no reason for you to blindly believe I was telling the truth, surely? I may be or may not be or I may be mistaken etc. You have to keep an open mind.
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Morning jansus correct a rifle shot makes very little noise and that is a fact ADAM.
The judge would have gone by what was said in court in a 19 day trial. The information given to him must have been wrong. Sloppy work all round.
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I didn't say he wasn't telling the truth I am saying he MAY not be telling the truth. If I told you something by pm there is no reason for you to blindly believe I was telling the truth, surely? I may be or may not be or I may be mistaken etc. You have to keep an open mind.
Pargeter just has to prove he was at the house the weekend before the murders. It is up to the jurors & police whether he saw the rifle. People often tell the truth when making statements as witnesses to police or testifying in court.
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Mugford 'did not' know Jeremy was intending to kill his family.
She knew he hated and resented them. However she always dismissed his plans as waffle. On TV Julie said Jeremy liked to say things to shock people.
Jeremy's silly plan to drug & burn the house down was thought to be not feasible. Even if Jeremy wanted to get rid of his family, Julie would have felt Jeremy was not clever enough.
So she provided him with the sleeping pills just in case he SHOULD wish to kill them, did she?
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So she provide him with the sleeping pills just in case he SHOULD wish to kill them, did she?
Jeremy said no. She brought the pills for her own medication.
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Adam, any chance of a reply to post 2788, regarding the oh so truthful relatives?
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Pargeter just has to prove he was at the house the weekend before the murders. It is up to the jurors & police whether he saw the rifle. People often tell the truth when making statements as witnesses to police or testifying in court.
I am not disagreeing but you are accepting his words as gospel while I am leaving a possibility he was mistaken. Beyond that, if the sights were off we have no idea why, or who removed them ...... that is a fact.
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Jeremy said no. She brought the pills for her own medication.
Stop making it up as you go. She got the prescription from her gp. She took ONE and knowing what she said Jeremy had planned, just HAPPENED to convey to him that she had sleeping pills that she wasn't taking. Given that she wasn't taking them, and given that she says she KNEW what Jeremywas planning, HOW did the find their way to Jeremy's house when she visited?
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Stop making it up as you go. She got the prescription from her gp. She took ONE and knowing what she said Jeremy had planned, just HAPPENED to convey to him that she had sleeping pills that she wasn't taking. Given that she wasn't taking them, and given that she says she KNEW what Jeremywas planning, HOW did the find their way to Jeremy's house when she visited?
Good point. Jeremy must have asked Julie to bring them over. He wanted to see if they were atrong enough to knock out his family. He realised they were not. So worked out his murder/suicide plan.
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Good point. Jeremy must have asked Julie to bring them over. He wanted to see if they were atrong enough to knock out his family. He realised they were not. So worked out his murder/suicide plan.
So you're admitting she was an accessory?
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So you're admitting she was an accessory?
Well she dismissed his plans, telling him not to be stupid. She brought the pills over months beforehand upon Jeremys request. Not believing he would do anything sinister with them. Julie said on TV 'Jeremy said things to shock people'.
Jeremy in his interview transcipts said the pills were at WHF for a period.
There is no evidence she assisted Jeremy in any way on the murder night or in preparation of the murder night.
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Good point. Jeremy must have asked Julie to bring them over. He wanted to see if they were atrong enough to knock out his family. He realised they were not. So worked out his murder/suicide plan.
So you're saying that IF what she said was the truth, OF HER OWN VOLITION, having freedom of choice, she provided him with the potential means of killing his family. What would that make her Adam? That's right. Clever you. It makes her an accessory!!!!!
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Adam, in case you'd forgotten/thought to slither out of it, you've yet to respond to post 2788.
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So you're saying that IF what she said was the truth, OF HER OWN VOLITION, having freedom of choice, she provided him with the potential means of killing his family. What would that make her Adam? That's right. Clever you. It makes her an accessory!!!!!
Accessory to what. No one was drugged with sleeping pills & no house was burnt down.
Jeremy said the pills were at WHF for Julies medication.
So there is no evidence that Julie can be charged for conspiracy to murder. She also volunteed this information to the police.
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Well she dismissed his plans, telling him not to be stupid. She brought the pills over months beforehand upon Jeremys request. Not believing he would do anything sinister with them. Julie said on TV 'Jeremy said things to shock people'.
Jeremy in his interview transcipts said the pills were at WHF for a period.
There is no evidence she assisted Jeremy in any way on the murder night or in preparation of the murder night.
I'm not talking about the murder night but she admits he discussed using sleeping pills to drug the family before setting the house of fire to KILL them. She provided the sleeping pills!! Doesn't that make her an accessory? She is 'actively' engaging in one of his plans whether she thinks he is being serious or not. But who would go to the trouble of obtaining the pills in the first place if they didn't have a reason for doing so and who would give them to someone talking about using them as part of a murder plot? Even if you think Jeremy is guilty, trying to defend this action just makes you sound bloody minded!!
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Accessory to what. No one was drugged with sleeping pills & no house was burnt down.
Jeremy said the pills were at WHF for Julies medication.
So there is no evidence that Julie can be charged for conspiracy to murder.
It shows that she was willing to take an active part in a plan to murder the family IF such a plan were ever devised!
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I'm not talking about the murder night but she admits he discussed using sleeping pills to drug the family before setting the house of fire to KILL them. She provided the sleeping pills!! Doesn't that make her an accessory? She is 'actively' engaging in one of his plans whether she thinks he is being serious or not. But who would go to the trouble of obtaining the pills in the first place if they didn't have a reason for doing so and who would give them to someone talking about using them as part of a murder plot? Even if you think Jeremy is guilty, trying to defend this action just makes you sound bloody minded!!
My understanding is Julie already had the pills. After Jeremy found out he asked for some.
Julie talked Jeremy out of the drugging, house burning idea. Saying there were valuble uninsured items, it would be difficult to set such a big house on fire & someone might see the big house burning. Jeremy also realised the pills were not strong enough after trying them.
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My understanding is Julie already had the pills. After Jeremy found out he asked for some.
Julie talked Jeremy out of the drugging, house burning idea. Saying there were valuble uninsured items, it would be difficult to set such a big house on fire & someone might see the big house burning. Jeremy also realised the pills were not strong enough after trying them.
Adam, wearing my counsellor cloak, I can only tell you that IF Julie said what YOU are saying she did, she was actually giving him permission to look for another way of doing it because NOWHERE have you said that she told him how wicked a thought it was and if he mentioned it again, she'd leave him. OH. She couldn't, could she, because SHE'D provided him with the sleeping pills.
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Do people believe Julie indirectly motivated Jeremy to commit the crimes ?
I mentioned before that she continuously dismissed his plans. Even on the night she said 'don't be so stupid' & 'go to bed'. Not being taken seriously again may have been the final motivator.
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My understanding is Julie already had the pills. After Jeremy found out he asked for some.
Julie talked Jeremy out of the drugging, house burning idea. Saying there were valuble uninsured items, it would be difficult to set such a big house on fire & someone might see the big house burning. Jeremy also realised the pills were not strong enough after trying them.
Eh? That's not what happened at all - that's not even what she said happened!!!! She didn't say she had the pills first! And she said he actually TRIED to drug his parents but that the pills didn't work and it was HE who realised about valuables being destroyed. Stop trying to rewrite things to suit your argument - we aren't idiots here!!
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Adam, wearing my counsellor cloak, I can only tell you that IF Julie said what YOU are saying she did, she was actually giving him permission to look for another way of doing it because NOWHERE have you said that she told him how wicked a thought it was and if he mentioned it again, she'd leave him. OH. She couldn't, could she, because SHE'D provided him with the sleeping pills.
She did ask Jeremy to not speak about it & said she did not like him speaking about it. But Jeremy's hatred & resentment was too strong.
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Do people believe Julie indirectly motivated Jeremy to commit the crimes ?
I mentioned before that she continuously dismissed his plans. Even on the night she said 'don't be so stupid' & 'go to bed'. Not being taken seriously again may have been the final motivator.
Someone who would continually JUST dismiss such plans is in my mind, either lying or frankly a complete idiot!
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Eh? That's not what happened at all - that's not even what she said happened!!!! She didn't say she had the pills first! And she said he actually TRIED to drug his parents but that the pills didn't work and it was HE who realised about valuables being destroyed. Stop trying to rewrite things to suit your argument - we aren't idiots here!!
Whose pills were they ? Why didn't Jeremy just get his own pills if Julie did not have any ?
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Do people believe Julie indirectly motivated Jeremy to commit the crimes ?
I mentioned before that she continuously dismissed his plans. Even on the night she said 'don't be so stupid' & 'go to bed'. Not being taken seriously again may have been the final motivator.
[/quote
A rather STUPID question given that most of us don't believe Jeremy committed the crime anyway. However, in her fantasy world of "Loads a money" Julie MAY have dreamed that he might.
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Someone who would continually JUST dismiss such plans is in my mind, either lying or frankly a complete idiot!
This may also explain the 3am call. After Julie had again dismissed his talk earlier on, he wanted to boast that he was not just all talk.
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Whose pills were they ? Why didn't Jeremy just get his own pills if Julie did not have any ?
Why don't you go and read Julie's statement. You post rubbish of your own making insisting it's truth, yet ask US questions that if you had any real interest in this case, you'd know the answers to.
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Why don't you go and read Julie's statement. You post rubbish of your own making insisting it's truth, yet ask US questions that if you had any real interest in this case, you'd know the answers to.
Jeremy said in the interview transcript the sleeping pills were Julie's medication. So they were Julies.
Julie said some were given to Jeremy. He tried them on himself but thought they were useless.
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Whose pills were they ? Why didn't Jeremy just get his own pills if Julie did not have any ?
If the pills were ever in the equation and not dreamed up out of Julie's vivid imagination - he obviously didn't need to get his own pills - Julie obliged!!
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If the pills were ever in the equation and not dreamed up out of Julie's vivid imagination - he obviously didn't need to get his own pills - Julie obliged!!
The pills did exist.
Julie said so in her statement.
Jeremy said so in his interview transcript.
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Whose pills were they ? Why didn't Jeremy just get his own pills if Julie did not have any ?
Jeremy said in the interview transcript the sleeping pills were Julie's medication. So they were Julies.
Julie said some were given to Jeremy. He tried them on himself but thought they were useless.
So why the need to ask the question in the first place?
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So why the need to ask the question in the first place?
I asked the question.
Then remembered I had read Julies WS & Jeremys interview transcripts.
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Julie on TV after the conviction said Jeremy planned to drug the family & burn the house down.
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Do my eyes deceive me or is Adam not going to answer post 2788? That's fine if he is not.
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Julie on TV after the conviction said Jeremy planned to drug the family & burn the house down.
Did she also say she provided him with the means to do it? By the way Post 2788 is waiting for an answer from you. Thus far, your reticence to do so speaks volumes.
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Sorry Roch was too busy answering everyone else.
What point are you making ?
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Julie lied to the police, courts & on TV. Naughty girl.
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Sorry Roch was too busy answering everyone else.
What point are you making ?
It's alright. It doesn't matter. You post from a stance where everyone tells the truth except Jeremy, police are completely open about all evidence available to them and relatives are knowledgeble regarding Sheila / her illness. The piece I copy and pasted highlights that Police withheld from the defence, statements from social services that undermined the relatives arguments / supported JB's claims. But just forget it. I know you're not really that interested.
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It's alright. It doesn't matter. You post from a stance where everyone tells the truth except Jeremy, police are completely open about all evidence available to them and relatives are knowledgeble regarding Sheila / her illness. The piece I copy and pasted highlights that Police withheld from the defence, statements from social services that undermined the relatives arguments / supported JB's claims. But just forget it. I know you're not really that interested.
Why didn't Jeremys highly paid defence team get this information from Sheila's social workers.
The defence did consult several psychiatrists. None said Sheila was capable of going on such a murderous rampage. One also said Jeremy was a psychopath. Able to block out his crime from his mind.
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It's alright. It doesn't matter. You post from a stance where everyone tells the truth except Jeremy, police are completely open about all evidence available to them and relatives are knowledgeble regarding Sheila / her illness. The piece I copy and pasted highlights that Police withheld from the defence, statements from social services that undermined the relatives arguments / supported JB's claims. But just forget it. I know you're not really that interested.
So true. We showed him proof before about JM visit to the bank as well and he was not interested in that either. Or answer my question about how many police interviews she had. He stated in a post earlier that I had to convince him of JB innocence- but as far as I am concerned that is not my objective . Mine is to ask questions on the forum and hopefully learn from other peoples extensive research on the case. I am not here to make any judgement - what would be the point?
I am yet to understand what Adams objective is? It is certainly not to read peoples replies - or even comment on them. Expecially my "scenario" ( and I thought he loved those") where he is accused of a crime based on a murder weapon that was contaminated - and what his reaction would be?
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So true. We showed him proof before about JM visit to the bank as well and he was not interested in that either. Or answer my question about how many police interviews she had. He stated in a post earlier that I had to convince him of JB innocence- but as far as I am concerned that is not my objective . Mine is to ask questions on the forum and hopefully learn from other peoples extensive research on the case. I am not here to make any judgement - what would be the point?
I am yet to understand what Adams objective is? It is certainly not to read peoples replies - or even comment on them. Expecially my "scenario" ( and I thought he loved those") where he is accused of a crime based on a murder weapon that was contaminated - and what his reaction would be?
I responded to you're scenario. It had lots of holes in.
I also responded to Rochs post.
Contaminated evidence. Proof please.
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It's alright. It doesn't matter. You post from a stance where everyone tells the truth except Jeremy, police are completely open about all evidence available to them and relatives are knowledgeble regarding Sheila / her illness. The piece I copy and pasted highlights that Police withheld from the defence, statements from social services that undermined the relatives arguments / supported JB's claims. But just forget it. I know you're not really that interested.
Everyone telling the truth except Jeremy is more realistic than everyone lying except Jeremy.
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Why didn't Jeremys highly paid defence team get this information from Sheila's social workers.
That is a very good question. However, it does not have any bearing on the fact that Police were able to obtain such information, presumably when the case was being investigated as four murders and one suicide, then withheld the information.
The defence did consult several psychiatrists. None said Sheila was capable of going on such a murderous rampage. One also said Jeremy was a psychopath. Able to block out his crime from his mind.
This isn't my area but I expect it will be challenged.
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Everyone telling the truth except Jeremy is more realistic than everyone lying except Jeremy.
But that's a bit like saying that it's more realsitic for the Cardiff Three to have been lying, while all the police officers and prosecution witnesses were telling the truth. Come on Adam, surely you must see the holes in your reasoning?
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I responded to you're scenario. It had lots of holes in.
I also responded to Rochs post.
Contaminated evidence. Proof please.
handling the moderator with a hanky for a start. Admitted in the police statement. The way the moderator was put in the boot of the families car and taken out of WHF before being handled to the police.
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Julie on TV after the conviction said Jeremy planned to drug the family & burn the house down.
Did she mention that she supplied the drugs?
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handling the moderator with a hanky for a start. Admitted in the police statement. The way the moderator was put in the boot of the families car and taken out of WHF before being handled to the police.
It was accepted in court. So considered not contaminated.
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It was accepted in court. So considered not contaminated.
Hypothetical question:
If it was accepted in a court that 'Piltdown Man' was a genuine fossil, would that mean that it wasn't a hoax?
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Hypothrtical question:
If it was accepted in a court that 'Piltdown Man' was a genuine fossil, would that mean that it wasn't a hoax?
;D
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It was accepted in court. So considered not contaminated.
So Adam - if that was you - and the only bit of "evidence" had been handled in that way and did not apparently get to the lab until about 6 weeks later - would you just have put your hands up and said "fair cop guv"
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Why didn't Jeremys highly paid defence team get this information from Sheila's social workers.
The defence did consult several psychiatrists. None said Sheila was capable of going on such a murderous rampage. One also said Jeremy was a psychopath. Able to block out his crime from his mind.
FFS Adam, this has been visited time and time again. The answer to the first question is beyond the remit of anyone here. As for the psychiatrists, none had ever seen her and were basing what the said on the report of Dr F who had seen her for the last time 18 weeks prior to her death. Mental illness is so volatile that it can change in an instant especially when meds are unbalanced, as were Sheila's.
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Why didn't Jeremys highly paid defence team get this information from Sheila's social workers.
The defence did consult several psychiatrists. None said Sheila was capable of going on such a murderous rampage. One also said Jeremy was a psychopath. Able to block out his crime from his mind.
this question is irrelevant. You have just been shown the evidence - it exists. end of your argument.
And you only choose to quote which expert suits you. JB has passed tests that show he is not a psychopath.
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FFS Adam, this has been visited time and time again. The answer to the first question is beyond the remit of anyone here. As for the psychiatrists, none had ever seen her and were basing what the said on the report of Dr F who had seen her for the last time 18 weeks prior to her death. Mental illness is so volatile that it can change in an instant especially when meds are unbalanced, as were Sheila's.
That is not the courts or juries fault. They made a decision on the evidence at the time. Guilty.
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That is not the courts or juries fault. They made a decision on the evidence at the time. Guilty.
It sounds as if you're saying that it really is of no consequence if the evidence is flawed and whatever the jury decide, despite being given the wrong information, should be adhered to and if the poor sod in the dock is innocent, tough luck if he's found guilty, it's just the way the cookie crumbles.
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It sounds as if you're saying that it really is of no consequence if the evidence is flawed and whatever the jury decide, despite being given the wrong information, should be adhered to and if the poor sod in the dock is innocent, tough luck if he's found guilty, it's just the way the cookie crumbles.
If Sheila had not seen a social worker for 18 weeks. That cannot change. The psychiatrists used by the defence can just use the information available. Or the highly paid defence can find other information.
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Perfectly beleivable scenario for me -
Jeremy rides to WHF - He had a bike & knew the routes.
He gets through the bathroom window without making a noise - He is used to getting in. Found hacksaw used earlier to ensure a quiet entry.
The phones are disabled & gun picked up.
He starts shooting a sleeping June - Blood on the pillow (5)
Neville wakes & gets up & is shot - Torso shots (4)
Neville heads to the kitchen - Back shot (1)
He is caught up and beaten - Gun is now empty. Nevilles black eyes, damaged jaw.
Gun re loaded and Neville shot again - Head shots (3)
June has staggered out of bed. She is shot again (2)
Sheila is woken & told she needs to go into the main bedroom. She is immediatly pulled to the floor, held down & shot. Still alive she is shot again - Two bullet wounds (2)
The twins are shot while sleeping - Found in bed (eight).
Silencer taken off - Not found on gun.
A gun & bible is put on & by Sheila - Both found on/by her.
Bedroom phone brought downstairs & plugged in - No blood on phone.
Kitchen phone hidden - Found under newpapers. In working order.
Silencer put in box in gun cupboard - Found in a box in the gun cupboard.
Exit out of the kitchen window - Lockable from outside.
Back home, wash & get ready to make phone calls.
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For Graheme.
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If Sheila had not seen a social worker for 18 weeks. That cannot change. The psychiatrists used by the defence can just use the information available. Or the highly paid defence can find other information.
Where did you read that I'd mentioned social workers? I have NO idea when she'd last seen one and unlike you, I don't make it up if I don't know, but I WILL repeat that which I do and it remains FACT that the ONLY psychiatrist to have had ANY contact with her had seen her for the last time 18 weeks prior to her death and could only base his finding on what he saw then. Information, or NOT, gleaned by the defence is NOT my responsibility.
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Where did you read that I'd mentioned social workers? I have NO idea when she'd last seen one and unlike you, I don't make it up if I don't know, but I WILL repeat that which I do and it remains FACT that the ONLY psychiatrist to have had ANY contact with her had seen her for the last time 18 weeks prior to her death and could only base his finding on what he saw then. Information, or NOT, gleaned by the defence is NOT my responsibility.
Psychiatrists, social workers. If no one had seen her for 18 weeks, that's a fact. The courts discuss facts.
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Adam pity you don't follow the Court and speak facts ;D
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Psychiatrists, social workers. If no one had seen her for 18 weeks, that's a fact. The courts discuss facts.
Do you need to have the difference explained to you? Such a pity that the jury weren't told that she hadn't been seen by psychiatrist for 18 weeks.
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Do you need to have the difference explained to you? Such a pity that the jury weren't told that she hadn't been seen by psychiatrist for 18 weeks.
Maybe they were told that.
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Maybe they were told that.
Just one of several things the jury weren't privy to which could have changed the outcome of the trial.
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Just one of several things the jury weren't privy to which could have changed the outcome of the trial.
How do you know they were not told that ?
People on here make a big thing about it. The defence were not stupid so would have mentioned it to try to create reasonable doubt.
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It seems you're still reticent to respond to Post 2788. I can't imagine why when you're usually so vociferous.
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How do you know they were not told that ?
People on here make a big thing about it. The defence were not stupid so would have mentioned it to try to create reasonable doubt.
Go look it up for yourself Adam.
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It seems you're still reticent to respond to Post 2788. I can't imagine why when you're usually so vociferous.
I did respond. Next.
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I did respond. Next.
NO, you didn't. You made an avoidance tactic.
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Yeah right.
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Yeah right.
So glad you're being truthful enough to admit it.
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Did not answer my question in 2838 either.
It seems to me that he believes that if he believes a person is guilty it does not matter by what means they are convicted . The ends justify the means . And I think that just about sums up his attitude. And I have a feeling that is just how the relatives felt. I get the feeling in their minds they decided JB was guilty - so whatever way he got put away - it was ok with them.
That is why it will not matter what we put before Adam - he has made up his mind. End of.
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Did not answer my question in 2838 either.
It seems to me that he believes that if he believes a person is guilty it does not matter by what means they are convicted . The ends justify the means . And I think that just about sums up his attitude. And I have a feeling that is just how the relatives felt. I get the feeling in their minds they decided JB was guilty - so whatever way he got put away - it was ok with them.
That is why it will not matter what we put before Adam - he has made up his mind. End of.
Jansus, nor has he responded to 2842.
I think Adam is a proponent of Noble Cause Corruption -that they may convict the wrong person seems not to concern him- and he appears to have little or no interest in what others may think.
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Hi Girls you are lucky if Adam answers any of your posts I am still waiting from 2 weeks ago :'( :'( :'(
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Hi Girls you are lucky if Adam answers any of your posts I am still waiting from 2 weeks ago :'( :'( :'(
I answer all questions. Do not tell lies.
This is a pro Jeremy site. So people get very upset with me as my arguments supporting his conviction are so strong. It is hard to answer every point as there are often 3 or 4 people bombarding me at the same time.
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Sorry Roch was too busy answering everyone else.
What point are you making ?
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My reply to 2788. Further posts were written. Read the thread.
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It sounds as if you're saying that it really is of no consequence if the evidence is flawed and whatever the jury decide, despite being given the wrong information, should be adhered to and if the poor sod in the dock is innocent, tough luck if he's found guilty, it's just the way the cookie crumbles.
What flawed information ?
As said several times. There is a mountain of forensic & circumstantial evidence. Too many curious coincidences, a motive & opportunity. The jury convicted & appeals have failed.
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Adam excuse me but I may be many things but certainly not a liar you only answer selective posts and do I care no you still have not given me 5 items which constituted forensic evidence not hearsay or circumstantial. Lets have them. Many posters on the forum know you do not answer all posts just the ones that suit you and do not ever again accuse me of telling lies I find that very insulting to say the least >:(
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I answer all questions. Do not tell lies.
This is a pro Jeremy site. So people get very upset with me as my arguments supporting his conviction are so strong. It is hard to answer every point as there are often 3 or 4 people bombarding me at the same time.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but your arguments are far from strong we get upset for quite the opposite reason, your arguments are rubbish I'm afraid.
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Adam excuse me but I may be many things but certainly not a liar you only answer selective posts and do I care no you still have not given me 5 items which constituted forensic evidence not hearsay or circumstantial. Lets have them. Many posters on the forum know you do not answer all posts just the ones that suit you and do not ever again accuse me of telling lies I find that very insulting to say the least >:(
Show me the post from two weeks ago I did not answer.
I was not online two weeks ago anyway so how could I answer.
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What flawed information ?
As said several times. There is a mountain of forensic & circumstantial evidence. Too many curious coincidences, a motive & opportunity. The jury convicted & appeals have failed.
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That is my answer to 2838 Janus.
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I answer all questions. Do not tell lies.
This is a pro Jeremy site. So people get very upset with me as my arguments supporting his conviction are so strong. It is hard to answer every point as there are often 3 or 4 people bombarding me at the same time.
Bwah, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D That's not the reason Adam, I can assure you of that. The reason is because keep regurgitating the same stuff and repeating myths!!
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Bwah, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D That's not the reason Adam, I can assure you of that. The reason is because keep regurgitating the same stuff and repeating myths!!
Which keeps getting responded to.
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"As said several times. There is a mountain of forensic & circumstantial evidence. Too many curious coincidences, a motive & opportunity
right lets break this down shall we
1) circumstantial evidence- does not prove murder
2) curious co-incidences - do not prove murder
3) motive - it has been pointed out many times before he was due another inheritance - so these murders were a huge unnecessary risk and you are using your constant character assasination to back this one up
4) opportunity - Lots of people have opportunity - you have to link all three tings together - and every method of returning to his house - destroying the evidence etc have been discounted.
5) forensic evidence that JB did it ( not that SC did not) please elaborate on this one point please ?
If you are back to the silencer then my original question still stands.
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I answer all questions. Do not tell lies.
This is a pro Jeremy site. So people get very upset with me as my arguments supporting his conviction are so strong. It is hard to answer every point as there are often 3 or 4 people bombarding me at the same time.
NO Adam, you're very wrong. Your arguments are FAR from strong. They're frequently childish and regularly not properly thought through. As for your not telling lies, I suppose it depends on how one defines lying.
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"As said several times. There is a mountain of forensic & circumstantial evidence. Too many curious coincidences, a motive & opportunity
right lets break this down shall we
1) circumstantial evidence- does not prove murder
2) curious co-incidences - do not prove murder
3) motive - it has been pointed out many times before he was due another inheritance - so these murders were a huge unnecessary risk and you are using your constant character assasination to back this one up
4) opportunity - Lots of people have opportunity - you have to link all three tings together - and every method of returning to his house - destroying the evidence etc have been discounted.
5) forensic evidence that JB did it ( not that SC did not) please elaborate on this one point please ?
If you are back to the silencer then my original question still stands.
Everything added together proves murder.
Do you want me to post the 14 forensic points again ? The 2002 appeal also suggested Sheilas legs had been pulled after the second shot. Again already posted.
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Adam I have posted at least 6 posts today that did warrant an answer the other 6 maybe not. The 2 weeks was a sweeping statement whenever it was you ignored my posts and I have better things to do than trawl through them looking to see if you have responded.
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Which keeps getting responded to.
Actually I find it very therapeutic because every time I respond to your posts I am more and more convinced that JB is innocent . So thank you from the bottom of my heart. :-*
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Adam I have posted at least 6 posts today that did warrant an answer the other 6 maybe not. The 2 weeks was a sweeping statement whenever it was you ignored my posts and I have better things to do than trawl through them looking to see if you have responded.
So there is no post from two weeks ago.
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Everything added together proves murder.
Do you want me to post the 14 forensic points again ? The 2002 appeal also suggested Sheilas legs had been pulled after the second shot. Again already posted.
Don't bother Adam. You must have, by now, a fairly clear indication of what we ALL think of your arrogant and childish posts. We can't all be wrong. We have no problem with those who think Jeremy is guilty, it's what healthy debate is about. You have yet to contribute to it because you play by your own rules.
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No one answered my question on how animal blood could get so deep inside a silencer. Contact shots are unlikely on animals. Which are why silencers are used. Jeremy has previously claimed it is animal blood.
How the hell did human blood get so deep inside the silencer ? It must be family members as the gun probably never left the grounds of WHF. If not Sheila's blood, why put the silencer neatly away in the middle of murderous rampage ? However it is almost certainly Sheilas blood. Meaning...
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So there is no post from two weeks ago.
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Adam stop being childish never mind the posts from earlier answer the 6 from today. Then I will deal with earlier posts.
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After making a fuss about an alledged unanswered post from two weeks ago I thought it would be easy for you to find it. Obviously not.
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Show me the six from today.
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Everything added together proves murder.
Do you want me to post the 14 forensic points again ? The 2002 appeal also suggested Sheilas legs had been pulled after the second shot. Again already posted.
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NO ADAM it does not PROVE murder - I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.
Also already posted evidence from the police themselves that the scene had been "moved"
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jansus that is the same effect Adam's posts have on me any doubts I may have had are gone now and I am one hundred percent he is innocent. Maybe we should now refer to him as Sir Adam ;D ;D ;D Have you noticed how he is trying to shift the 6 posts not responded to by him to me to something 2 weeks back ;D ;D ;D ;D
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No one answered my question on how animal blood could get so deep inside a silencer. Contact shots are unlikely on animals. Which are why silencers are used. Jeremy has previously claimed it is animal blood.
How the hell did human blood get so deep inside the silencer ? It must be family members as the gun probably never left the grounds of WHF. If not Sheila's blood, why put the silencer neatly away in the middle of murderous rampage ? However it is almost certainly Sheilas blood. Meaning...
Seems like you choose to ignore that Sheila shared her blood type with RWB .
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##
NO ADAM it does not PROVE murder - I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.
Also already posted evidence from the police themselves that the scene had been "moved"
Mountains of forensic & circumstantial evidence. Motive, opportunity, court testimonies, curious coincidences, convictions, appeal rejections.
What more do you want blood !?
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Adam go back and look they started with a response you put upto Droosie this morning quite easy just go back on my posts and you will see them and stop being lazy and trying to wriggle out of things like you do.
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jansus that is the same effect Adam's posts have on me any doubts I may have had are gone now and I am one hundred percent he is innocent. Maybe we should now refer to him as Sir Adam ;D ;D ;D Have you noticed how he is trying to shift the 6 posts not responded to by him to me to something 2 weeks back ;D ;D ;D ;D
You brought up the two week old post. Which is a lie, unless proven otherwise.
Show me the six posts from today please.
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Adam go back and look they started with a response you put upto Droosie this morning quite easy just go back on my posts and you will see them and stop being lazy and trying to wriggle out of things like you do.
You made the claim. You provide the proof. That is how things work.
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Mountains of forensic & circumstantial evidence. Motive, opportunity, court testimonies, curious coincidences, convictions, appeal rejections.
What more do you want blood !?
Would be marginally better and less of an irritant that some of your posts which amount to nothing more than the same old same old.....................
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Adam you are right again I am just making a fuss about you not answering my posts please forgive me it will not happen again shall I walk on burning coals for you my mighty one how dare I suggest you are not perfect ;D ;D ;D
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Seems like you choose to ignore that Sheila shared her blood type with RWB .
No one mentioned his name after the tests were carried out.
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How the hell did human blood get so deep inside the silencer ?
I'd like to hear from Ron, Ann, David & co regarding that.
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I'd like to hear from Ron, Ann, David & co regarding that.
You agree with Jeremy that the relatives framed him ?
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Adam have you ever thought of becoming a comic you make claims all the time and as yet you have provided no proof and never can as your posts have no credence and do not even make sense this is why I am not pushing you for replies to my numerous posts. I suppose because all your posts are repeats copied from elsewhere you feel it is only necessary to give one reply to 50 posts suppose that could be right. Saves space on the forum.
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I'd like to hear from Ron, Ann, David & co regarding that.
Have to agree it's a good question and I agree the above named may have some imput there.
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No one mentioned his name after the tests were carried out.
Are you saying she didn't?
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Adam have you ever thought of becoming a comic you make claims all the time and as yet you have provided no proof and never can as your posts have no credence and do not even make sense this is why I am not pushing you for replies to my numerous posts. I suppose because all your posts are repeats copied from elsewhere you feel it is only necessary to give one reply to 50 posts suppose that could be right. Saves space on the forum.
Focus on the case. Not me. Reading outside of this forum & not waiting for an unpublished book will give you a better understanding. Oh sorry I forgot you do not want to read anything horrible about Jeremy in case it upsets you.
Show me you're unanswered posts. I will happily answer them. As I always do.
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Are you saying she didn't?
Who is she ?
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Adam stop trying to be smart it does not suit you nor does being funny so forget that as well just grow up ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Susan I find it quite worrying that you have been the most polite and accommodating person concerning Adams posts. You have a lot more patience than me - and yet now he has turned on you.
Bad show I say. Its just not cricket. I think Adam should treat your posts with more respect. >:(
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Susan I find it quite worrying that you have been the most polite and accommodating person concerning Adams posts. You have a lot more patience than me - and yet now he has turned on you.
Bad show I say. Its just not cricket. I think Adam should treat your posts with more respect. >:(
I just post about Jeremy.
Other people focus on me. So I respond.
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perhaps its when you reply with "derr" and other such comments that you annoy people .
Its just childish.
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jansus very kind of you to say so I have tried to be nice and sometimes have a joke with him as I do others but the last straw for me is when he made an inference that I was a liar to me that is the biggest insult you can give me. He has ignored most of my posts other than the ones he finds he can be insulting so I have now decided to ignore him as I cannot deal with rude people. Thank you jansus for your kind remarks. :-*
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jansus very kind of you to say so I have tried to be nice and sometimes have a joke with him as I do others but the last straw for me is when he made an inference that I was a liar to me that is the biggest insult you can give me. He has ignored most of my posts other than the ones he finds he can be insulting so I have now decided to ignore him as I cannot deal with rude people. Thank you jansus for your kind remarks. :-*
you are welcome - I appreciate all your posts - they are always interesting and well informed .
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jansus thank you for the compliment it is funny you have not been on the forum so long but I feel you know so much about the case and talk so much sense I am learning from you. Thank you.
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jansus very kind of you to say so I have tried to be nice and sometimes have a joke with him as I do others but the last straw for me is when he made an inference that I was a liar to me that is the biggest insult you can give me. He has ignored most of my posts other than the ones he finds he can be insulting so I have now decided to ignore him as I cannot deal with rude people. Thank you jansus for your kind remarks. :-*
Hi jansus, have to agree it's not acceptable for Adam to call Susie a liar.l We should be able to disagree without using such insults.
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Maggie he is like a child when he knows he is loosing he has to lash out with insults joking and having fun is acceptable but calling somebody a liar IMO is the lowest of the low my parents would have skinned me alive if they had heard me use that word. But hey ho it takes all kinds and we have a lovely bunch of posters on here and we all respect each other irrespective of our views.
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Maggie he is like a child when he knows he is loosing he has to lash out with insults joking and having fun is acceptable but calling somebody a liar IMO is the lowest of the low my parents would have skinned me alive if they had heard me use that word. But hey ho it takes all kinds and we have a lovely bunch of posters on here and we all respect each other irrespective of our views.
Show me you're posts which you claim I have not responded to. It is not hard to do.
I have already asked you twice.
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Maggie he is like a child when he knows he is loosing he has to lash out with insults joking and having fun is acceptable but calling somebody a liar IMO is the lowest of the low my parents would have skinned me alive if they had heard me use that word. But hey ho it takes all kinds and we have a lovely bunch of posters on here and we all respect each other irrespective of our views.
Susan, I'm afraid I came perilously close to saying it of Adam, because if there's anything I like less that being called a liar, it's hearing them said of others. I can use many euphemisms for what Adam does but sometimes it's difficult to remain polite when he seems to take such joy in doing it.
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April believe me many times I have wanted to call Adam many things (a liar not being one of them) but have too much respect for my fellow human beings to revert to such language and I may have been banned as well ;D ;D ;D ;D
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April believe me many times I have wanted to call Adam many things (a liar not being one of them) but have too much respect for my fellow human beings to revert to such language and I may have been banned as well ;D ;D ;D ;D
Trouble is, Susan, I have the same respect for the person I hear Adam slagging off and he is in no position to defend himself.
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Perfectly beleivable scenario for me -
Jeremy rides to WHF - He had a bike & knew the routes.
He gets through the bathroom window without making a noise - He is used to getting in. Found hacksaw used earlier to ensure a quiet entry.
The phones are disabled & gun picked up.
He starts shooting a sleeping June - Blood on the pillow (5)
Neville wakes & gets up & is shot - Torso shots (4)
Neville heads to the kitchen - Back shot (1)
He is caught up and beaten - Gun is now empty. Nevilles black eyes, damaged jaw.
Gun re loaded and Neville shot again - Head shots (3)
June has staggered out of bed. She is shot again (2)
Sheila is woken & told she needs to go into the main bedroom. She is immediatly pulled to the floor, held down & shot. Still alive she is shot again - Two bullet wounds (2)
The twins are shot while sleeping - Found in bed (eight).
Silencer taken off - Not found on gun.
A gun & bible is put on & by Sheila - Both found on/by her.
Bedroom phone brought downstairs & plugged in - No blood on phone.
Kitchen phone hidden - Found under newpapers. In working order.
Silencer put in box in gun cupboard - Found in a box in the gun cupboard.
Exit out of the kitchen window - Lockable from outside.
Back home, wash & get ready to make phone calls.
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My Jeremy scenario without the mysterious phone calls.
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My Jeremy scenario without the mysterious phone calls.
If you look at the diagram of the shots to Nevill you will see that he was not shot in the back at all.
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On consideration Sheila was found in the far corner of the bedroom. With no where to run. So possible she was not lead by Jeremy.