The bedroom phone, phone calls & Neville.

[maggie]

Or Sheila had heard the noise & wandered into her parents bedroom. Jeremy entering the bedroom from downstairs & taking her by surprise before she had realised what had happened.

I'll ask you again..... I think it was RB who called Jeremy a pansy, some called him a wimp, others said he was gentle and didn't like killing animals. He had no history of violence to girlfriends or anyone else, he has been tested at least 27 times and found to have no Personality Disorders or mental illness so how on earth did he shoot the 5 people closest to him without it affecting him at all? How did he manage to that, it must have been pretty awful in that farmhouse that night?

[Adam]

You will have to ask Jeremy !

There will be conflicting stories of Jeremys relationship with these people. Jeremy will no doubt speak about a loving relationship & idylic countrysides.

Other people have heard about his father being 'ready to be put to pasture' &  'insane mother' who he had not spoken to for years. Sheila he told the police was a 'nutter'  he 'didn't get on with'. Did Jeremy know the twins that well ?

Jeremy did not seem too upset afterwards. Which made the police & relatives even more suspicious.

[Neil]

Unlike riding cross country wearing a wetsuit, or finding a silencer in a cupboard that had already been searched by 5 police officers that when tested, is like the candy store version of forensics, or entering a house through a window and not alerting even the dog and leaving no trace of yourself, or an autopsy report that when in statement form becomes the complete opposite of the written notes of the pathologist, or an open bible placed in a pool of blood that has no stain on the page that was actually resting in it? I could go one but I won't!! Most of these aren't even scenario's, they're 'supposed' to be facts!! Laughable!!

That's all as maybe, but it doesn't deal with the idea that Neville may have left Shelia to roam around the house with a firearm, while he first called Jeremy and then the Police. 

The further points you raise, which are all valid and highly debatable, are probably best discussed on other, more relevant threads.

[Adam]

Unlike riding cross country wearing a wetsuit, or finding a silencer in a cupboard that had already been searched by 5 police officers that when tested, is like the candy store version of forensics, or entering a house through a window and not alerting even the dog and leaving no trace of yourself, or an autopsy report that when in statement form becomes the complete opposite of the written notes of the pathologist, or an open bible placed in a pool of blood that has no stain on the page that was actually resting in it? I could go one but I won't!! Most of these aren't even scenario's, they're 'supposed' to be facts!! Laughable!!

People in wet suits are perfectly capable of riding bikes. Relations have said there are three cross country bike rides to the farm which avoid the main roads. Mugford said Junes bike was first seen by her outside Jeremys house about 4 days before the murders. Bamber did not deny this when interviewed by the police.

It is possible to enter windows quietly. Why should a trace be left ? Gloves can be worn.

[Adam]

That's all as maybe, but it doesn't deal with the idea that Neville may have left Shelia to roam around the house with a firearm, while he first called Jeremy and then the Police. 

The further points you raise, which are all valid and highly debatable, are probably best discussed on other, more relevant threads.

Would Neville go into another room & risk Sheila roaming around the house with a gun ?

Oh sorry I forgot, she was already doing this otherwise two 3am phone calls would not be made.

[Caroline R]

That's all as maybe, but it doesn't deal with the idea that Neville may have left Shelia to roam around the house with a firearm, while he first called Jeremy and then the Police. 

The further points you raise, which are all valid and highly debatable, are probably best discussed on other, more relevant threads.

Why would he suspect that she would kill the family, she was his daughter? She had had psychotic attacks before - why should he think that this one would end in tragedy? I don't think anyone here is in a position to know what Neville would or wouldn't do and people often behave out of character in stressful situations. All of the scenarios are equally possible but at the end of the day, they are also totally useless because 'we weren't there'!!

As for keeping on topic, I think everyone here is guilty of shifting from time to time!!

[Neil]

Why would he suspect that she would kill the family, she was his daughter? She had had psychotic attacks before - why should he think that this one would end in tragedy? I don't think anyone here is in a position to know what Neville would or wouldn't do and people often behave out of character in stressful situations. All of the scenarios are equally possible but at the end of the day, they are also totally useless because 'we weren't there'!!

As for keeping on topic, I think everyone here is guilty of shifting from time to time!!

Because she had one of the guns and was going berserk.

[Alias]

Jeremy had to show that Sheila had been moving around the house. Why not put her in the main bedroom, where two other people had been shot ? The first 'rushed' shot didn't kill her. Resulting in the second shot.

Would there be blood on Jeremy to transfer to Sheila's bedroom ? The twins & Junes killings were straight forward. Nevilles killing was more difficult but Jeremy could always take his shoes off before getting Sheila.

Sheila may not have heard anything, especially if the bedroom door was shut.  The twins & Junes killings were quick. The kitchen fight was downstairs & may have been quick.

Not that quick, it would all have taken time. It is just a normal house, not some sort of huge bunker or manson. It would have been noisy, very noisy. Sheila could not have slept through that - my opinion.

[Caroline R]

Because she had one of the guns and was going berserk.

That's not what he said in the call to Jeremy!! He said, 'Sheila has gone crazy, she has got the gun' which is quite different to going crazy 'with' a gun!! There is no mention of the word 'berserk' relating to the call he made to Jeremy.

[tyler]

Jeremy had to show that Sheila had been moving around the house. Why not put her in the main bedroom, where two other people had been shot ? The first 'rushed' shot didn't kill her. Resulting in the second shot.

Would there be blood on Jeremy to transfer to Sheila's bedroom ? The twins & Junes killings were straight forward. Nevilles killing was more difficult but Jeremy could always take his shoes off before getting Sheila.

Sheila may not have heard anything, especially if the bedroom door was shut.  The twins & Junes killings were quick. The kitchen fight was downstairs & may have been quick.

June's killing was quick? How so? She managed to get out of bed,made her way around the bed and back again before she was killed with a shot between the eyes in the doorway. I certainly wouldn't call that a quick killing!

[Caroline R]

People in wet suits are perfectly capable of riding bikes[. Relations have said there are three cross country bike rides to the farm which avoid the main roads. Mugford said Junes bike was first seen by her outside Jeremys house about 4 days before the murders. Bamber did not deny this when interviewed by the police.

It is possible to enter windows quietly. Why should a trace be left ? Gloves can be worn.

I know he didn't deny it, he borrowed it for Julie!! The rest is as good as fiction!!

[Martin]

What prompts Neville to phone Jeremy? You seem to be suggesting that the first shots are fired while he is in conversation with Jeremy.  If it were the case, that at the the moment he made the call Shelia was running around the house with a gun, would he not have first tried to disarm her?

Why phone Jeremy first, before calling the Police?

That's a stupid question.

I’m not saying he must have heard shots. He may have heard something to make him think that he ought to phone the police, that's all.

In Bonnett's log he says "My daughter has gone berserk." I think you are one of those people who deliberately confuse the two logs, to make it sound as if the Bamber supporters think that Nevill would have phoned Jeremy after things had escalated to that point. Sneaky!

HIS ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION COULD HAVE CHANGED DURING HIS CALL TO JEREMY.

[Martin]

There have been claims that rigor mortis is visible in photographs of Nevill, June and the twins, and that those of Sheila Caffell show no rigor or lividity. This claim does not seem ever to have been adduced by a medical professional rather than a layperson.


Officers observed that wet blood had pooled in the crook of Sheila’s right arm. Congealed blood had also formed in the aperture of the lower neck wound. One possibility is that when Sheila was moved by officers at the scene, this plug became detached, and allowed blood accumulated within Sheila’s neck, viscous but not yet congealed, to run thickly beyond the entrance of the wound.

This post is copied from an article by Ian Stephens, better known as starryian, at this blog.

http://crimeheartsandcoronets.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html

Here is the relavant passage

There have been claims that rigor mortis is visible in photographs of Nevill, June and the twins, and that those of Sheila Caffell show no rigor or lividity. This claim does not seem ever to have been adduced by a medical professional rather than a layperson.

A consistent feature of objections to the Crown case is that they rest upon arguments from personal incredulity. Surely the blood on Sheila’s neck couldn’t look as “fresh” as it does in the photographs if she’d been dead for at least six hours?

Well, yes, it could. Officers observed that wet blood had pooled in the crook of Sheila’s right arm. Congealed blood had also formed in the aperture of the lower neck wound. One possibility is that when Sheila was moved by officers at the scene, this plug became detached, and allowed blood accumulated within Sheila’s neck, viscous but not yet congealed, to run thickly beyond the entrance of the wound.

Stephens also mocks the Bamber supporters for thinking that Nevill would have phoned the police in a “hail of bullets.”

There is something darkly comic about the image of Nevill Bamber, under a hale of bullets, leafing through the phone book to get hold of the number for his local station instead of dialling 999.

As a Magistrate he might well have had the local police number in his head.

As for the hail of bullets, that shows typical guilter dishonesty. Of course, the idea is that Nevill would have made the phone call to Jeremy before anyone had been shot and phoned the police when it seemed to him that Sheila had gone “berserk.”

[mike tesko]

Jeremy's call to police (3:36am) - (1) - "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", (3) - "He has got the gun, he has gone crazy, come quickly"...

When Jeremy was arrested and interviewed, he challenged the wording recorded in phone log 3:36am, by insisting that when he spoke to police on that occasion, that he did not say, (1) - Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", he told his interviewers that his fathers words were almost certainly, (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", and that it was the person who received his call who changed "She" into "Sheila"...

Now, if this is true, and I have previously argued with Jeremy regarding this on many occasions, face to face, over the phone, and in correspondence, then lets say it was the recipient of Jeremys call to police at 3:36am who changed, "She" into "Sheila", it surely infers that the recipient of Jeremys call at 3:36am, was privy to information received earlier in the form of Ralph Bambers telephone call to police timed at 3:26am, where he said, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns"...

The privilege of knowing what had been said at the time of Ralphs call to police (3:26am) had a bearing on the way information given by Jeremy in his call to police (3:36am) was altered, from (2) -  "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", into (1) - "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly"...

Changing what was said by Jeremy at the time of his call (3:36am) was designed to make it appear that Jeremy had planted the idea in the minds of the police, that Sheila had shot everyone, and that she must have then gone on to take her own life, when all along, if Jeremy did not mention Sheila by name, but had merely said, (2) - "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", how was Jeremy to know to whom his father was referring to at the time of his fathers call to him (3:25am), and at the time of his call to police (3:36am). By the same token, when Ralph made his call to police (3:26am) and he told them, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns", surely it must be clear to everyone that police knew it was Mr Bambers daughter who was going berserk back at the farmhouse, so that by the time Jeremy gets around to making his own call (3:36am) to police, the police already know who the "She" is, that Jeremy makes mention of when he spoke to police in his 3:36am telephone call to them, which permits the recipient of Jeremys call to substitute the wording, "She", for "Sheila"...

If this is what happened, then it helps to establish that police received two telephone calls that morning, one from the scene at 3:26am, where Ralph Bamber told police, "My daughter has got hold of one of my guns", and another telephone call 10 minutes later, made by Jeremy to police, where he told them, (2) - " She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly" - both logs were eventually merged into the same one, without an explanation for why a crucial part of what Jeremy had told police (She), was altered (Sheila)...

[Martin]

Hi Neil. Sheila could have sneaked upstairs and started shooting whilst Nevill was on phone to JB. However,I don't agree with the part in Martin's scenario that Nevill hears shooting and calls the Police. Surely he would have dropped the phone and ran to his wife's aid - not waste precious time listing all the weapons in the house to EP down the phone line?

Suppose there were three stages of escalation.

1 Sheila is quarrelling with Nevill downstairs and at some point gets the gun and goes upstairs with it.

Nevill is concerned and thinks of phoning the police but decides against it. Police cars and all the rest might upset her still more and there would be a story in the local papers. So he decides to phone Jeremy.

2 While talking to Jeremy, he hears something which makes him think that the situation is more grave than he thought, so he thinks he had better phone the police after all.

3  He rushes upstairs to find out what is happening. It’s important to remember that he would not naturally assume that Sheila would shoot his wife. Even if he had heard shots he would not know what Sheila was shooting at. He would not have got the full picture until he saw the scene in the bedroom.

This is where pro guilt people go wrong. They appear to assume that if Sheila had taken the gun Nevill would immediately assume that her intention was to shoot other family members. That doesn’t have any compelling logic behind it. I would imagine that his first thought would be for Sheila’s own safety. He might well have feared that she might shoot herself.

People with mental health problems are far more likely to commit suicide than to kill other family members. He would have been thinking about what might be the best course of action to help her, not about storming at her to save the others.