The bedroom phone, phone calls & Neville.

[susan]

Morning Adam


I have not heard anything that you post before aint life exciting 

[susan]

Adam why do you have to be sarcastic so much make your point and we will either agree or disagree.  You seem to have a personal problem with Jeremy did you know him or what.  No point in you trying to solve this case he was found GUILTY in a Court of Law and is serving life in prison what more do you want.  You told me you came on this forum with an open mind I have yet to see that.

[Nickos]

Yeah but.  Lets say at this point Neville had not been injured at all and he wanted Jeremy's support because Sheila was behaving somewhat silly with a rifle/gun.

We can speculate that if Neville used the phone to call Jeremy, she might have felt betrayed by her father just like she did when Freddie phoned her doctor when she became ill that night.  Freddie clearly says in his statement that she went more berserk when I used the phone. Could this have been the case when her father phoned Jeremy? Could she have pressed the cut off button on the phone? It is possible. 

What is not possible of course is that Neville had any injuries at this point. 

Patti, come on - "somewhat silly with a "loaded" rifle/gun. Anyone with an ounce of gun eticate (and Nevill would have known this) would not leave anyone alone at 3am in the morning with a loaded gun (and known to be emotionally disturbed).

He would have disarmed her and then possibly called JB to come over and help after Sheila was disarmed, but still possibly upset. Not leave poor Sheila alone with a loaded gun and call his son over to face what was a significant danger.

The story about a phone call from Nevill is simply a lie.

And of course there is no evidence to prove a call from Nevill to JB took place, or strong enough evidence to show Nevill called the police (999 or otherwise).

And before anyone says there is no evidence to prove either of these calls did not take place this argument is irrelevant as JB is in prison.

Prove either call took place and JB is out, and in over 27 years this has not been possible.

[Nickos]

I think in a situation when someone has just grabbed a gun and you don't know what they are going to do with it  you would want some support from another family member as soon as possible. At that point he probably would not believe his own daughter would actually fire at the family , perhaps he thought she might just fire "madly" at walls or furniture - or perhaps he did think she would harm herself , but at that point even he might not realise the full extent of what she was about to do. So I agree perhaps he thought he could contain her , and let JB in. But within minutes the situation changed.

I believe Nevill with his RAF and farming background would have been logical and pragmatic about dealing with an emotionally disturbed daughter with a loaded gun.

The time between a loaded gun being not active and then active is less than one second. One cannot afford any time to someone with a loaded gun.

I don't believe Nevill would have been undecided about what to do, hesitating over drawn out phone calls, leaving others in the house unprotected, running to the kitchen, etc. 

Being a rifle owner myself there is no way I would ask support from another member of my family (to add living at a different address) knowing I would be bringing them in to danger. No Way!

There is always the danger Sheila could simply have shot herself. I would have disarmed my daughter to not only protect the other members of the family in the house, but also from herself.

[Nickos]

Why is the phone off the hook ?

Family support from Jeremy ? That is like asking Oliver Reed to support a recovering alcoholic !

 

[Nickos]

Adam I believe Oliver Reed is dead

McG, He is , but nothing to do with JB on this occasion 

[campion]

Deja Vu,
IMO we are going round the Mulberry Bush in this latest part of this Topic.
Many of the points raised here were answered by Mike's imput to questions raised in the Threads:-
        The Riddle of the Backstairs,  and
        The Mystery of Photograph 13 (that being the Polaroid, or Instammatic photo taken very early on the morning of the massacre, in the 'backkitchen, den, or as Jeremy referred to it, the laundry room', by one of the initial Raid Party ( at approximately 5.25am).
Further to what has been discussed hitherto, may I ask you to ponder the following:-
   a) anthony Pargeter left WHF on the Thursday previous to the Shootings, taking the bolt of his gun with him.(It is thought this is surprising, since the "Glorious Twelfth" was imminent, and AP with his shooting prowess,would very likely be participating).
   b) the Farm Secretary, Barbara Wilson was on leave for some time prior to the Shootings.
It seems likely to me that, in the time available until Sheila and her twins arrived at WHF, Nevill will have arranged for the enhanced Security arrangements to be carried out -viz A) The telephone Alarm System, and B) The matter of changing the lock and fitting of inner security facility, to the door to the Yard. The various other external doors were fitted with bolts T&B, and could be considered secure.

JB most likely would be aware of this. So, too, would be any Third Parties, who may well have been cognisant of another means of facilitating access, and whom may have been so prepared.

Please put 'Thinking Caps on'.

           "THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS. EVER!"  MRD.

[maggie]

Patti, come on - "somewhat silly with a "loaded" rifle/gun. Anyone with an ounce of gun eticate (and Nevill would have known this) would not leave anyone alone at 3pm in the morning with a loaded gun (and known to be emotionally disturbed).
He would have disarmed her and then possibly called JB to come over and help after Sheila was disarmed, but still possibly upset. Not leave poor Sheila alone with a loaded gun and call his son over to face what was a significant danger.
The story about a phone call from Nevill is simply a lie.
And of course there is no evidence to prove a call from Nevill to JB took place, or strong enough evidence to show Nevill called the police (999 or otherwise).
And before anyone says there is no evidence to prove either of these calls did not take place this argument is irrelevant as JB is in prison.
Prove either call took place and JB is out, and in over 27 years this has not been possible.

Hi Nickos, I accept that your reasoning has lead you to the conclusion JB is guilty however, it is only your opinion based on the evidence we know. It is just as easy to believe there is a reasonable possibility of doubt based on available evidence. You can state that the phone call categorically didn't happen but you cannot prove it.
Its true JB is in prison and has been for 28 years so why argue his guilt, he's where you want him to be, so what's the argument?  Is it that you are not as certain as you claim to be and your argument is more about keeping yourself convinced than others?
No offence Nick but JB is one of the most securely locked up prisoners in this country and without a miracle will probably remain that way for the rest of his life. Isn't there a teeny weeny doubt that a young man incarcerated at 24 years old and sentenced to the rest of his life in prison may, just may be as innocent as he claims to be?. Have you seriously considered what a disaster this is for him if he is in fact innocent?

[susan]

Naughty Nickos Oliver Reed gave me more laughs than Adam well maybe not

[maggie]

I believe Nevill with his RAF and farming background would have been logical and pragmatic about dealing with an emotionally disturbed daughter with a loaded gun.
The time between a loaded gun being not active and the active is less than one second. One cannot afford any time to someone with a loaded gun.
I don't believe Nevill would have been undecided about what to do, hesitating over drawn out phone calls, leaving others in the house unprotected, running to the kitchen, etc. 
Being a rifle owner myself there is no way I would ask support from another member of my family (to add living at a different address) knowing I would be bringing them in to danger. No Way!
There is always the danger Sheila could simply have shot herself. I would have disarmed my daughter to not only protect the other members of the family in the house, but also from herself.

Hi Nickos have said this before but you ignore it.
The fact is Nevill was a fighter pilot in North Africa during the war, he flew for a couple of years before having an accident and breaking his back. He was trained to fly and fight in a plane not on the ground in one to one combat and not with hand guns. They needed to know how to survive if brought down in enemy territory but not how to defend yourself against your own daughter, its ludicrous to suggest what Nevill did for a couple of years 40 years before would have any bearing on how he would have behaved that day. My dad did a spell in North Africa, based in Palestine with the RAF but he was in heavy bombers, would that have helped him to deal with me in my 20s if I attacked him with a gun?, Certainly not, no doubt about that he would have tried to reason and if I was beyond reason I would have shot him.

[campion]

Tres apposite Caroline, good to see you indulging in a Bit of 'ankle biting'.

The Truth of the 'Calls' is out there, and indeed will come OUT.
Also, I am eagerly awaiting the putting up of 'Z's photo of Sheila apparently still alive with a solitary wound to her neck, ON THE BED,,!,,!

            "THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS, EVER !"

[maggie]

Thanks Camps but I think people forget that we're all sitting here with the benefit of hindsight and no one knows what they would do until faced with something. A few years ago my dad had a massive heart attack right in front of me and even though I had done CPR training as part of my off-shore survival course, it didn't even enter my head to try it - such was the shock. As it turned out, it wouldn't have made a great deal of difference given the damage to his heart - but I still always wonder "What if?" Before Had someone asked me what I would do in this situation prior - I'd have had all of the answers!!

So true Caroline, shock affects people in very diffdrent ways but in my experience it tends to slow us down rather than speed us up.

[grahameb]

The pathologist said Neville would have had difficulty speaking from his teeth, neck, jaw and larynx injuries.

This means Neville phoned Jeremy before his non bullet injuries. The phone suddenly going dead suggests Sheila put her hand over the phone. Neville would automatically put the phone on the hook himself.

Would Sheila really be able to win a fight with Neville, even if Neville had been shot in the torso ?  Sheila did not have a mark on her.

If Sheila didn't have a mark on her suggesting that she didn't fight with Ralph, then the same rule must if you follow the same argument apply to Jeremy by default.

[grahameb]

If I had committed the crime I would certainly try to arrive after the police.

If I was already there the police could claim I had been there for hours & rang from WHF.

What, with all the doors locked from inside?

[grahameb]

If Jeremy arrives after the police that suits Jeremy. Sadly for him the police passed his car driving very slowly.

Why didn't he just wait a few minutes then set out? Simples.