The bedroom phone, phone calls & Neville.

[Caroline R]

This was the electricity man who also noticed a quiet family scene with the twins playing happily. Sheila was past the first phase of incarceration at St. Andrew's with the fantasies about the twins which Jeremy may well have got wind of in 1983, and discharged herself so her natural mother would not meet her in such a place. I don't know about the other weapon(I'm assuming it's the one Nevill kept under the bed),but more telling was Anthony Pargeter's evidence about noticing the new Anschutz in the gun cupboard ten days before the murders with the sights attached,and don't tell me Sheila unscrewed these along with everything else she was supposed to have done. The only explanation I have is that Jeremy removed them to prime this weapon for murder.

That's right Steve, if you can't answer the question or point being made, completely change it, answer a different one and change the emphasis!! 

[Jane]

I said the defence consulted several psychiatrists to see if they felt Sheila was capable of going on such a murderous rampage. They all said 'no'.

And I responded by telling you that Sheila hadn't been seen by a psychiatrist for 18 weeks PRIOR to her death by which time her meds were up the creek, the hopes she'd treasured had been dashed, and she was an entirely different person, psychologically from the one they'd based their assessment on. It seems that you've chosen to ignore these facts.

[Steve_uk]

And I responded by telling you that Sheila hadn't been seen by a psychiatrist for 18 weeks PRIOR to her death by which time her meds were up the creek, the hopes she'd treasured had been dashed, and she was an entirely different person, psychologically from the one they'd based their assessment on. It seems that you've chosen to ignore these facts.

She told Helen Grimster she got on better with Colin since the divorce. In addition she could see the twins whenever she wanted(disproving Jeremy's adoption lies). Her vacant stare and behaviour noticed by Caroline Heath a week before her death and noticed by others at Colin's party a week later and by the Tiptree shopkeeper on the Tuesday was symptomatic of a person still with Haloperidol in her system,not someone who was off medication altogether.

[Adam]

She told Helen Grimster she got on better with Colin since the divorce. In addition she could see the twins whenever she wanted(disproving Jeremy's adoption lies). Her vacant stare and behaviour noticed by Caroline Heath a week before her death and noticed by others at Colin's party a week later and by the Tiptree shopkeeper on the Tuesday was symptomatic of a person still with Haloperidol in her system,not someone who was off medication altogether.

Does'nt that drug make you slower ?

[Adam]

And I responded by telling you that Sheila hadn't been seen by a psychiatrist for 18 weeks PRIOR to her death by which time her meds were up the creek, the hopes she'd treasured had been dashed, and she was an entirely different person, psychologically from the one they'd based their assessment on. It seems that you've chosen to ignore these facts.

We have gone through this yesterday. The defence could also speak to all Sheilas friends, former social worker & relatives to find out more about her recent state. Jeremy would have known some of them.

18 months ? Perhaps she was better !

[Adam]

Oh. So you haven't examined or seen the logs yourself then? Please search the forum and look at the logs yourself with your own eyes. Then answer me.

A respected book from an investigative researcher is good enough for me.

Have the defence denied this ?

[Adam]

You obviously haven't experienced police corruption? They all close ranks to cover one colleague believe me.

Why frame Jeremy ? They already had the case sewn up as murder/suicide.

Was Jeremy a known gangster & criminal they were desparate to put inside,  who had slipped through their fingers before ? No. The police believed his murder/suicide theory at first & Jeremy always made them coffee when they visited.

I do not believe a few relatives could pressurise the police into doing something they did not beleive.

[Adam]

They were wrong. Corrupt lot all in each other's pockets that lot.

So the courts are also corupt now ?

I believe Jeremy had a fair trial. It lasted 19 days. All evidence available at the time was submitted. Jeremy had very expensive lawyers & chose to take the stand himself.

Mary Mugford, Julie's mother took the stand at the trial.

She said Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad & sending him to boarding school. Jeremy & June apparently never spoke.  He also felt June loved the twins more. He even called Mary Mugford 'mummy' instead & offered Mary Junes car after the shootings.

Jeremy had told Mary that June was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons.


Always a shame when mothers & sons do not get on.

[Jane]

Grahame I reread Dr. Hugh Ferguson's statements last night and there's nothing incriminating there against Sheila and her alleged propensity for violence. The chapter Adam cites does mention that the Defence canvassed several psychiatrists as to the possibility that Sheila might have exploded in a psychotic episode and you can bet your life that any such evidence helpful to them would have been used. I can well understand why these psychiatrists would request anonymity along with one who insisted Jeremy demonstrated psychopathic traits which is what put Rivlin and Lawson in such a pessimistic frame of mind just as the trial was about to begin.

If they'd have canvassed 100 psychiatrists, NONE could do more than base their assessment on the person who was seen 18 full weeks PRIOR to her death, at which time it wasn't known that her meds weren't balanced. What was known was that she had a positive outlook and hopes of a bright future. How could they possibly judge the person she became after all those hopes were dashed when they'd never seen her.

If you see your doctor tomorrow and he gives you a clean bill of health based on your visit, how can he possibly know how you'll be 18 weeks down the line if you life circumstances change?

[grahameb]

Grahame I reread Dr. Hugh Ferguson's statements last night and there's nothing incriminating there against Sheila and her alleged propensity for violence. The chapter Adam cites does mention that the Defence canvassed several psychiatrists as to the possibility that Sheila might have exploded in a psychotic episode and you can bet your life that any such evidence helpful to them would have been used. I can well understand why these psychiatrists would request anonymity along with one who insisted Jeremy demonstrated psychopathic traits which is what put Rivlin and Lawson in such a pessimistic frame of mind just as the trial was about to begin.

Interesting. Thank you Steve.

[grahameb]

But she never struck him. Was Sheila getting her cannabis and cocaine from him(allegedly).It wouldn't surprise me..

That's funny. Getting my fix from the gasman.

[nugnug]

So the courts are also corupt now ?

I believe Jeremy had a fair trial. It lasted 19 days. All evidence available at the time was submitted. Jeremy had very expensive lawyers & chose to take the stand himself.

no there not corrupt now they have always been corrupt.

ask the Birmingham 6.

[Jane]

She told Helen Grimster she got on better with Colin since the divorce. In addition she could see the twins whenever she wanted(disproving Jeremy's adoption lies). Her vacant stare and behaviour noticed by Caroline Heath a week before her death and noticed by others at Colin's party a week later and by the Tiptree shopkeeper on the Tuesday was symptomatic of a person still with Haloperidol in her system,not someone who was off medication altogether.

This was around the same time that she ran screaming from the Monastery and attacked the utility man, was it? I'm not certain how you draw the conclusion that it's been suggested that she was off meds entirely.

[grahameb]

She told Helen Grimster she got on better with Colin since the divorce. In addition she could see the twins whenever she wanted(disproving Jeremy's adoption lies). Her vacant stare and behaviour noticed by Caroline Heath a week before her death and noticed by others at Colin's party a week later and by the Tiptree shopkeeper on the Tuesday was symptomatic of a person still with Haloperidol in her system,not someone who was off medication altogether.

But didn't he tell her on the way from London to WHF that there was no chance of then getting back together, but she thought there was still a chance that they could get back together? That could have finally tipped her over the edge. Especially if a certain conversation took place the evening before the murders concerning the fostering of her children? Perhaps Adam should preface his scenario with the possibility of those events?

[grahameb]

Does'nt that drug make you slower ?

The doctor halved the dose.