The bedroom phone, phone calls & Neville.

[susan]

lookout  jeremy's innocence was the cause of his downfall i.e dumping Julie and handing over the keys to the relatives.  Had Jeremy been guilty of this horrendous crime and shared his intentions with Julie and left a silencer with blood on it in the gun cupboard he would never have dumped Julie or handed the keys over to anyone.

[lookout]

lookout  jeremy's innocence was the cause of his downfall i.e dumping Julie and handing over the keys to the relatives.  Had Jeremy been guilty of this horrendous crime and shared his intentions with Julie and left a silencer with blood on it in the gun cupboard he would never have dumped Julie or handed the keys over to anyone.

Susan,,he'd have hung on to those keys to return and trace his steps if he'd had committed the crime. After all it was night-time and anything could have been forgotten/misplaced. Artificial lighting isn't like daylight when you're up to no good.
Same old story though,Susan,,people might be academics/public school and all that, but common sense isn't always their strongest point,,and Jeremy was behind the door when that was dished out. He hadn't developed the knack of " seeing through " people,especially those who were out to damage him. Neville would have eventually taught him I'm sure.
I would go as far as to say that there isn't a bad bone in Jeremys' body,and the sooner the powers that be see this,the better for Jeremy.

[susan]

lookout  I think to a certain extent Jeremy did have a sheltered upbringing he was kept away from local children had he mixed with kids from different backgrouds he may have learnt not to be as trusting and accepting things at face value he could see no wrong in people.  He was afterall just a boy who had not had to grow up as some at that age had he had everything provided for him but did work hard on the farm and would have made a first class farmer and Ralph knew that. Now Julie in that department had everything that Jeremy lacked she saw opportunities and took them she was all out to make a better life for herself and had her eye on being the next Mrs. Bamber.  I think maybe Jeremy felt controlled and after the murders he needed to break free of her and do his own thing but she was not going to allow that was she.

[lookout]

lookout  I think to a certain extent Jeremy did have a sheltered upbringing he was kept away from local children had he mixed with kids from different backgrouds he may have learnt not to be as trusting and accepting things at face value he could see no wrong in people.  He was afterall just a boy who had not had to grow up as some at that age had he had everything provided for him but did work hard on the farm and would have made a first class farmer and Ralph knew that. Now Julie in that department had everything that Jeremy lacked she saw opportunities and took them she was all out to make a better life for herself and had her eye on being the next Mrs. Bamber.  I think maybe Jeremy felt controlled and after the murders he needed to break free of her and do his own thing but she was not going to allow that was she.

He was sheltered and shielded,Susan. I can remember years ago we had a family friend who brother and I grew up with. He'd had a more or less sheltered life,and bigger and older than us,was still a kid at heart who liked nothing better than playing tricks and pranks on us all the time. His favourite was Halloween,when he told mum to tell us kids he wasn't able to come. We were really disappointed as it wouldn't be the same without him. Anyway,because he was full of fun and surprises,,he leapt out at us from under coats in the hall,,and had this awful mask on. I screamed of course because he frightened me to death,,and he was bent double,laughing. He was like this until he went to Germany after he'd joined the Army in the 50's.  This is how I imagine Jeremy to have been. Full of fun and mischief. Still a big kid.

[susan]

lookout  Again I agree with you Jeremy was just a kid at heart and never really grew up.  Think after the horrendous murders of his entire family he maybe felt overwhelmed by it all as he knew he was out on his own the farm to run and think at first he did not face upto the situation and went a little wild with his friends he was just running away from his responsibilties but would have dealt with things given time.

[ngb1066]

The  hoops the Defence must now jump through to show Sheila's guilt evince a feeling of desperation which has not been manifest since my time on this forum at least. We now have a girl whose last words to Auntie Pam betrayed no malevoence whatsoever but only her customary weariness as she prepared for bed in an environment where admittedly she did not feel at home,yet now we have Sheila deciding to kill all there and then and changing into her nightie after the slaughter for the only reason it suits the Defence's scenario so to do.  It still does not explain why there is no blood spatter from the first shot in the kitchen(to humour the Defence for a moment)when she moves upstairs apparently out of view of Police at the scene.

The press deal has been discussed many times here but to recapitulate: Julie was hounded with reporters at her place of work and home and consulted a solicitor as how best to get rid of them. A deal was arranged whereby Julie would be left alone were she to agree to a deal which was to be signed after the trial,not before as has been alleged. A similar deal was available to Jeremy conditional on acquittal,along with Anji Greaves waiting in a suite at a Park Lane hotel with champagne in an ice bucket and a banner reading "Faith,Truth,Justice..Welcome Home Jeremy". Of course as it turned out Jeremy was heading not for the Hilton but Wormwood Scrubs,but the intention to profit out of the five murders was there. Of course as soon as the guilty verdict came through the Press pack dispersed along with Anji herself.

How do you know?

[lookout]

lookout  Again I agree with you Jeremy was just a kid at heart and never really grew up.  Think after the horrendous murders of his entire family he maybe felt overwhelmed by it all as he knew he was out on his own the farm to run and think at first he did not face upto the situation and went a little wild with his friends he was just running away from his responsibilties but would have dealt with things given time.

Susan,,he'd have been in shock,,but given his stoical background,stiff upper lip and all that,,he'd have learned to curb his emotions to a certain extent. He didn't even have time to grieve,so hadn't really taken in the enormity of what had happened. I feel terribly sorry for him. There was all the arranging to be done with everything,,with very little assistance I'd bet,,so in actual fact he'd have been grateful for having a friend such as Brett Collins to see him through his darkest time.
It was a lot to take in when you think about it,,on such young shoulders,,and the more I think of " the others ",the more I get annoyed at the scheming that must have gone on.

[susan]

lookout the fact Jeremy had no family to help him with all the arrangements would have made the situation much harder it was such an horrific event at WHF and Jeremy would not be able to absorb the enormity of what had happened and the fact he was left to sort everything out with no help from anyone.  Think he did appreciate help from Brett Collins Julie would not have been any help as she wanted to control him.  Wonder if Jeremy and Brett kept in touch after poor Jeremy was jailed.

[HMEssex]

lookout the fact Jeremy had no family to help him with all the arrangements would have made the situation much harder it was such an horrific event at WHF and Jeremy would not be able to absorb the enormity of what had happened and the fact he was left to sort everything out with no help from anyone.  Think he did appreciate help from Brett Collins Julie would not have been any help as she wanted to control him.  Wonder if Jeremy and Brett kept in touch after poor Jeremy was jailed.

I've often wondered that too.  Does anyone know what happened to him afterwards, or where he is now?

Perhaps as he was the main instigator of trying to sell photos of Sheila (or did all the talking apparently), he decided to keep a very low profile as this has been used since to vilify Jeremy.  Yet I believe he was one of the defendants at the court, who was NOT called to give evidence/character reference for Jeremy.

[susan]

Hello HMEssex  I wondered often what happened to Brett.  I did read he was not called as a character witness as it was thought it would not look good for Jeremy due to Brett's sexual preference.  Also Jeremy's ex girlfriend was a character witness not called as she was married with two children and way back then it was not accepted in Society for a guy to live with a married woman.  Maybe they got it wrong and should have called these people.

[lookout]

I've often wondered that too.  Does anyone know what happened to him afterwards, or where he is now?

Perhaps as he was the main instigator of trying to sell photos of Sheila (or did all the talking apparently), he decided to keep a very low profile as this has been used since to vilify Jeremy.  Yet I believe he was one of the defendants at the court, who was NOT called to give evidence/character reference for Jeremy.

Brett Collins lives in New Zealand,and did have a business of sorts in car sales I think. Patti knows more.

[susan]

Hello lookout  just had a thought last time Mason Doyle was on the forum he said his research had taken him to New Zealand.  I wonder who he went to see!!! have to wait for the book the suspense is killing me

[Adam]

There are striking similarities in both cases as regards denial. Whether or not Hanratty was actually a clinical psychopath will probably never be known, what we do know is that the DNA found at the crime scene matched his,  and therefore there is a extremely high probability that Hanratty is a murderer and a rapist. I believe the rape may be the cause of Hanratty's reluctance to admit to the crime, rather than the murder.  Who knows?

Bamber I believe, denies it persistently for several reasons. First and foremost he is aware that an admission of any sort would, almost certainly condemn him to a whole life tariff with virtually no hope of a retrial, Denial, however, affords Bamber the possibility - at least in theory - that his case may be referred to the Court of Appeal and he could be released, even on a technicality. 

Secondly, Bamber's overbearing arrogance. This well-documented and clearly obnoxious side to Bamber's personality, I believe played and continues to play a huge part in his reluctance to admit that he is responsible for this heinous crime. Put simply, he simply cannot admit to himself and others that he is a cowardly murderer who ambushed 5 defenseless people one man , two women and two children.

Lastly I believe that Bamber has portrayed himself - as narcissistic psychopaths often do - in the role of the victim. In was not him who committed the murders but his sister. Everyone else is lying. His relatives are trying to frame him. The police are out to get him. Anyone but him. This is one of the key traits of a psychopath - Denial and then shifting the blame. Psychopaths are adept at this.

However, there is one last aspect to why I think Bamber persistently denies responsibility and readers may find this somewhat strange; Bamber has such total contempt for those people that he so brutally murdered, that he feels they are unworthy of his imprisonment for their murder. He feels it is highly unjust that a man such as himself should spend any time at all incarcerated just because of them. In effect Bamber may feel a sense of injustice not for the fact that he is serving time for murder, but because the people that he murdered are unworthy of the time he is serving. They were nothing to him and therefore any punishment thats is administered should follow suit. To any right-thinking individual it sounds extremely strange. However, to a narcissistic psychopath this type of thinking makes perfect sense.

[grahameb]

The  hoops the Defence must now jump through to show Sheila's guilt evince a feeling of desperation which has not been manifest since my time on this forum at least. We now have a girl whose last words to Auntie Pam betrayed no malevoence whatsoever but only her customary weariness as she prepared for bed in an environment where admittedly she did not feel at home,yet now we have Sheila deciding to kill all there and then and changing into her nightie after the slaughter for the only reason it suits the Defence's scenario so to do.  It still does not explain why there is no blood spatter from the first shot in the kitchen(to humour the Defence for a moment)when she moves upstairs apparently out of view of Police at the scene.

The press deal has been discussed many times here but to recapitulate: Julie was hounded with reporters at her place of work and home and consulted a solicitor as how best to get rid of them. A deal was arranged whereby Julie would be left alone were she to agree to a deal which was to be signed after the trial,not before as has been alleged. A similar deal was available to Jeremy conditional on acquittal,along with Anji Greaves waiting in a suite at a Park Lane hotel with champagne in an ice bucket and a banner reading "Faith,Truth,Justice..Welcome Home Jeremy". Of course as it turned out Jeremy was heading not for the Hilton but Wormwood Scrubs,but the intention to profit out of the five murders was there. Of course as soon as the guilty verdict came through the Press pack dispersed along with Anji herself.

This cannot be true. Because when she was asked before the trial if she had made a deal with any newspaper she replied that she had not and did not intend making any deal. One week after the trial. In fact in next Sunday's NOTW the article appeared. Not only that but I believe in the first appeal she was again asked when the deal was made, she replied that she could not remember. I cannot believe that such a deal could be struck and signed for so soon after the trial complete with sexy pictures. I think she was a liar.

[Adam]

Interesting post above, not written by me.

What is everyones views ?