Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Roch on April 14, 2017, 10:01:PM
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If it was so obvious that Sheila was over-sedated and zombie-like; spilling baked beans and teaspoons of sugar etc. - why did Jeremy not realise that other people were also aware of this presentation; and would therefore question how she could have carried out the killings?
Why did Jeremy assume that his relatives would simply fall in to place and aquiesce in his assertion that Sheila was the killer due to her mental health?
He had known his cousins and uncle / aunty nearly all his life. They had known him and also his sister since they were both tiny. Why did he assume that his relatives would overlook Sheila's obvious zombie status?
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If it was so obvious that Sheila was over-sedated and zombie-like; spilling baked beans and teaspoons of sugar etc. - why did Jeremy not realise that other people were also aware of this presentation; and would therefore question how she could have carried out the killings?
Why did Jeremy assume that his relatives would simply fall in to place and aquiesce in his assertion that Sheila was the killer due to her mental health?
He had known his cousins and uncle / aunty nearly all his life. They had known him and also his sister since they were both tiny. Why did he assume that his relatives would overlook Sheila's obvious zombie status?
Because Sheila's illness was hush hush in the household, as Colin related in his book. The Bambers and the Boutflours didn't socialize as much as is thought anyway, though it was customary for Robert to call into White House Farm on Boxing Day for a sweet sherry.
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If it was so obvious that Sheila was over-sedated and zombie-like; spilling baked beans and teaspoons of sugar etc. - why did Jeremy not realise that other people were also aware of this presentation; and would therefore question how she could have carried out the killings?
Why did Jeremy assume that his relatives would simply fall in to place and aquiesce in his assertion that Sheila was the killer due to her mental health?
He had known his cousins and uncle / aunty nearly all his life. They had known him and also his sister since they were both tiny. Why did he assume that his relatives would overlook Sheila's obvious zombie status?
Sheila and Jeremy weren't that close to the relatives, there was quite an age gap and the relatives weren't fully informed of Sheila's illness. Jeremy could and did say what he liked - all the close family were dead so couldn't argue. Like any criminal, he thought he was cleverer - he wasn't.
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If it was so obvious that Sheila was over-sedated and zombie-like; spilling baked beans and teaspoons of sugar etc. - why did Jeremy not realise that other people were also aware of this presentation; and would therefore question how she could have carried out the killings?
Why did Jeremy assume that his relatives would simply fall in to place and aquiesce in his assertion that Sheila was the killer due to her mental health?
He had known his cousins and uncle / aunty nearly all his life. They had known him and also his sister since they were both tiny. Why did he assume that his relatives would overlook Sheila's obvious zombie status?
Roch the more I read the forum I have started to ask myself was Jeremy clever enough to plan and carry out the murders. One would think if he was guilty he would have behaved quite differently.
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Neither answer makes sense.
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Roch the more I read the forum I have started to ask myself was Jeremy clever enough to plan and carry out the murders. One would think if he was guilty he would have behaved quite differently.
Quite. I realised this long ago! I suspect you did too Susan.
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Neither answer makes sense.
Neither does the notion of a medicated Sheila carry out the murders.
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Neither does the notion of a medicated Sheila carry out the murders.
Then why would he attempt to frame her? It's his nemesis who has claimed she couldn't perform this or that simple task - and as you say, the notion of her killing everyone doesn't make sense. So why did it make sense for Jeremy and why did he rely on it making sense to others?
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If it was so obvious that Sheila was over-sedated and zombie-like; spilling baked beans and teaspoons of sugar etc. - why did Jeremy not realise that other people were also aware of this presentation; and would therefore question how she could have carried out the killings?
Why did Jeremy assume that his relatives would simply fall in to place and aquiesce in his assertion that Sheila was the killer due to her mental health?
He had known his cousins and uncle / aunty nearly all his life. They had known him and also his sister since they were both tiny. Why did he assume that his relatives would overlook Sheila's obvious zombie status?
thats a very good point id never thought of that.
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thats a very good point id never thought of that.
Yes Nugs. More questions than answers this Bamber guilty lark, isn't it?
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Then why would he attempt to frame her? It's his nemesis who has claimed she couldn't perform this or that simple task - and as you say, the notion of her killing everyone doesn't make sense. So why did it make sense for Jeremy and why did he rely on it making sense to others?
It's obvious why he would try to frame her because she had a history of mental health issues - she was a "nutter" remember?
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Then why would he attempt to frame her? It's his nemesis who has claimed she couldn't perform this or that simple task - and as you say, the notion of her killing everyone doesn't make sense. So why did it make sense for Jeremy and why did he rely on it making sense to others?
Because he got wind of the remark she made to June and Barbara Wilson round the breakfast table: "All people are bad and should be killed.". It was manna from heaven for Jeremy who had feigned interest in the Farm for his own evil purposes, but this interest only brought forth the offer from Nevill of farming Little Rentners Farm, done for the best of intentions but would just have entrapped his son in a lifestyle he had not chosen and felt no empathy for. Sheila had had a similar offer from June of managing an antiques shop in the locality, but again these were the parents' ideas of what would be suitable for their children and not the aspirations of individuals who had been spoiled, who didn't understand the value of money and through Nevill's long hours and June's illness never bonded fully with their parents.
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Because he got wind of the remark she made to June and Barbara Wilson round the breakfast table: "All people are bad and should be killed.". It was manna from heaven for Jeremy who had feigned interest in the Farm for his own evil purposes, but this interest only brought forth the offer from Nevill of farming Little Rentners Farm, done for the best of intentions but would just have entrapped his son in a lifestyle he had not chosen and felt no empathy for. Sheila had had a similar offer from June of managing an antiques shop in the locality, but again these were the parents' ideas of what would be suitable for their children and not the aspirations of individuals who had been spoiled, who didn't understand the value of money and through Nevill's long hours and June's illness never bonded fully with their parents.
Sometimes I like the depth of your posts Steve, even though to me, they sometimes go off at a tangent .
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Sheila and Jeremy weren't that close to the relatives, there was quite an age gap and the relatives weren't fully informed of Sheila's illness. Jeremy could and did say what he liked - all the close family were dead so couldn't argue. Like any criminal, he thought he was cleverer - he wasn't.
o if there wernt close to her how could they know so much about the side effects of her medication you cant have it both ways.
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o if there wernt close to her how could they know so much about the side effects of her medication you cant have it both ways.
Didn't David and Anthony admit in Taff Jones' office that Sheila could have committed the crimes, effectively showing that they were ignorant of her illness after all.
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aperantly there not close to jeremy but seem to know everything that jeremy and sheila did rather strange that.
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Didn't David and Anthony admit in Taff Jones' office that Sheila could have committed the crimes, effectively showing that they were ignorant of her illness after all.
so they thought she could of done her husband also thought shhe could of done funny they would all think that if it was impossble for to have done it.
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so they thought she could of done her husband also thought shhe could of done funny they would all think that if it was impossble for to have done it.
Well as I said in a previous post the relatives knew very little of her illness. I prefer to take the verdict of the Harley Street doctor who stated he didn't think she posed a risk to her children. As for Colin, this has been mentioned many times before. The "so she's finally done it" remark made by him on the doorstep upon being confronted by Police Officers pertained to Sheila only, and in fact is consistent with the times Sheila had confided in him the fears over her mental health and suicidal tendencies, thoughts confirmed by Helen Grimster far nearer the time.
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o if there wernt close to her how could they know so much about the side effects of her medication you cant have it both ways.
Who said they did? They didn't know what medication she was taking. They were talking about how she behaved which just proves the notion of over sedation.
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There is no possibility Sheila could have committed the massacre as she was on Haloperidol. It would have probably taken her 5 minutes to walk down the stairs without falling over.
This benefitted Bamber as he knew she would be easy to control later. He had seen her only hours earlier & his & PB's WS's confirm Sheila was unable to physically or mentally function.
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There is no possibility Sheila could have committed the massacre as she was on Haloperidol. It would have probably have taken her 5 minutes to walk down the stairs without falling over.
This benefitted Bamber as he knew she would be easy to control later. He had seen her only hours earlier & his & PB's WS's confirm Sheila was unable to physically or mentally function.
Firstly, if Sheila was 'so easy to control' and this 'benefited Bamber' - how was he unable to correctly shoot her on the first occasion? The most crucial shot he had to make that night - and he couldn't even control her properly or aim it properly. He also knowingly risked having to shoot her more than once -because he knowingly used a low calibre weapon intended for killing vermin.
What rubbish.
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Firstly, if Sheila was 'so easy to control' and this 'benefited Bamber' - how was he unable to correctly shoot her on the first occasion? The most crucial shot he had to make that night - and he couldn't even control her properly or aim it properly. He also knowingly risked having to shoot her more than once -because he knowingly used a low calibre weapon intended for killing vermin.
What rubbish.
What weapon should he have used ?
The second shot was in the exact same position as the first. It was impossible for Sheila to shoot herself twice. Bamber accepted this when interviewed by the police.
Yours & TomG's suggestion that the police fired the second shot after Sheila had been prononced dead, has been dismissed.
Bamber & PB confirmed Sheila was zonked out on the night & going to bed. There is no possibility she could have committed the massacre due to the Haloperidol. You know this.
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What weapon should he have used ?
The second shot was in the exact same position as the first. It was impossible for Sheila to shoot herself twice. Bamber accepted this when interviewed by the police.
B- U - L - L - S - H - I - T Alert!
If the two shots had been suspicious - they would have been suspicious for every copper who walked in to that farmhouse from Harris downwards and viewed Sheila's body - FROM THE VERY OFF. The two shots miraculously only came suspicious much later. They would have been suspicious with immediate effect. The police don't make assumptions and we are talking about tonnes of coppers from divisional commanders and experienced CID to experienced firearms and keen bobbies looking to make a mark. Oh.. and I forgot - also SOC & photography - who's very role is to specifically study and record the scene.
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B- U - L - L - S - H - I - T Alert!
If the two shots had been suspicious - they would have been suspicious for every copper who walked in to that farmhouse from Harris downwards and viewed Sheila's body - FROM THE VERY OFF. The two shots miraculously only came suspicious much later. They would have been suspicious with immediate effect. The police don't make assumptions and we are talking about tonnes of coppers from divisional commanders and experienced CID to experienced firearms and keen bobbies looking to make a mark. Oh.. and I forgot - also SOC & photography - who's very role is to specifically study and record the scene.
I've reported you to the moderators.
Anyway, what weapon should Bamber have used ? You didn't answer.
Some police were suspicious from the beginning. Bamber was arrested after one month. After the evidence had been processed.
What is the problem ?
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I've reported you to the moderators.
Anyway, what weapon should Bamber have used ? You didn't answer.
Some police were suspicious from the beginning. Bamber was arrested after one month. After the evidence had been processed. What is the problem ?
Fuck off you police informant worm. Report me to the moderators for saying that there's a bullshit alert relating to what we are expected to believe from police and prosecution?
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Fuck off you police informant worm. Report me to the moderators for saying that there's a bullshit alert relating to what we are expected to believe from police and prosecution?
I've reported you to the moderators again.
What weapon should Bamber have used. Third request.
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Fuck off you police informant worm. Report me to the moderators for saying that there's a bullshit alert relating to what we are expected to believe from police and prosecution?
Blimey Roch, are you being home schooled by Mike? :o
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Blimey Roch, are you being home schooled by Mike? :o
That's rich coming from you. You labelled me a 'dick' the other night.
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That's rich coming from you. You labelled me a 'dick' the other night.
I was jesting about people having poor opinions of others based on their views on the case. Hence why I then said that Caroline used to be 'orrible but was alright now.
Apologies if you took offence, you haven't previously been so sensitive to such banter.
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I was jesting about people having poor opinions of others based on their views on the case. Hence why I then said that Caroline used to be 'orrible but was alright now.
Apologies if you took offence, you haven't previously been so sensitive to such banter.
I don't think any body likes being called a 'dick' but I will try not to be sensitive. Maybe everybody should report Adam as being a troll - since he is so keen to report others.
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I don't think any body likes being called a 'dick' but I will try not to be sensitive. Maybe everybody should report Adam as being a troll - since he is so keen to report others.
You're as free to put him on ignore, as is he to report to moderators.
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I don't think any body likes being called a 'dick' but I will try not to be sensitive. Maybe everybody should report Adam as being a troll - since he is so keen to report others.
Maybe you should just chill out and get over it.
I'm sure lots of people find particular members irritating. Adam being annoying is I agree somewhat perpetual.
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There is no possibility Sheila could have committed the massacre as she was on Haloperidol. It would have probably taken her 5 minutes to walk down the stairs without falling over.
This benefitted Bamber as he knew she would be easy to control later. He had seen her only hours earlier & his & PB's WS's confirm Sheila was unable to physically or mentally function.
If this was the case why was she seen earlier that day skipping along the lane in high spirits with the twins? If she was that incapable of doing anything then why was she left in charge of 2 small children.?
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If this was the case why was she seen earlier that day skipping along the lane in high spirits with the twins? If she was that incapable of doing anything then why was she left in charge of 2 small children.?
Is it not simply the case that those of a guilty view are more willing to see Sheila as lethargic due to her medication, whereas those with an innocent view are more willing to see her as being full of energy and capable.
Maybe the reality is somewhere in between?
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Is it not simply the case that those of a guilty view are more willing to see Sheila as lethargic due to her medication, whereas those with an innocent view are more willing to see her as being full of energy and capable.
Maybe the reality is somewhere in between?
Finally, some common sense.
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If this was the case why was she seen earlier that day skipping along the lane in high spirits with the twins? If she was that incapable of doing anything then why was she left in charge of 2 small children.?
Skipping along the lane. Have you got a source ?
She went to see Bamber on his tractor. One of the Foakes's saw her & said she was in good spirits.
CC looked after the children & June & Nevill were assisting in looking after the children at WHF.
The WS's of Bamber & PB show Sheila was 'tired', 'non responsive', 'not paying attention', 'easy to control', 'not speaking' & 'going to bed'. Hours before the massacre.
The Haloperidol was having it's nightly effect & it's doubtful anything would wake her. If she did wake, it would take a big effort to walk down the stairs, let alone carry out a military style massacre. My 'Effects of Haloperidol' thread show this.
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Finally, some common sense.
Personally I don't see her being totally incapable of doing anything, if this was the case that she could barely get out of bed I would hope June Neville and Colin would of intervened and Been of the view, if she was incapable of looking after herself, it would be potentially dangerous and totally unfair on 2 young boisterous children to be in the care of someone in this state, yes Sheila was on medication, yes it would of affected her somewhat but I don't see any responsible doctor prescribing a drug to a young mother of twins medication that rendered her incapable of doing anything, even to the point she couldn't hold a conversation.
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Personally I don't see her being totally incapable of doing anything, if this was the case that she could barely get out of bed I would hope June Neville and Colin would of intervened and Been of the view, if she was incapable of looking after herself, it would be potentially dangerous and totally unfair on 2 young boisterous children to be in the care of someone in this state, yes Sheila was on medication, yes it would of affected her somewhat but I don't see any responsible doctor prescribing a drug to a young mother of twins medication that rendered her incapable of doing anything, even to the point she couldn't hold a conversation.
Otherwise.. perhaps her parents would have had no choice but to suggest to her - that needed extra help / assistance with the twins?
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Skipping along the lane. Have you got a source ?
She went to see Bamber on his tractor. One of the Foakes's saw her & said she was in good spirits.
CC looked after the children & June & Nevill were assisting in looking after the children at WHF.
The WS's of Bamber & PB show Sheila was 'tired', 'non responsive', 'not paying attention', 'easy to control', 'not speaking' & 'going to bed'. Hours before the massacre.
The Haloperidol was having it's nightly effect & it's doubtful anything would wake her. If she did wake, it would take a big effort to walk down the stairs, let alone carry out a military style massacre.
They weren't assisting, she was on her own with the twins in good spirits at that time, as a mother myself and a person with what I'd like to think of as common sense, if she was that bad she shouldn't of been left unsupervised, If this were me and they way Sheila was described as behaving no way would my parents of left me with my children by myself.
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I don't think any body likes being called a 'dick' but I will try not to be sensitive. Maybe everybody should report Adam as being a troll - since he is so keen to report others.
Dont worry Roch, he reported me the other day for telling him to p off. No one takes him series Roch but have to agree he is only here to annoy and like Jane said put him on ignore
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Otherwise.. perhaps her parents would have had no choice but to suggest to her - that needed extra help / assistance with the twins?
Exactly, I know my parents would of been of that view., as would I if it were my child/grandchildren.
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Dont worry Roch, he reported me the other day for telling him to p off. No one takes him series Roch but have to agree he is only here to annoy and like Jane said put him on ignore
Thanks. I apologise for overstepping the mark and biting. I have no proof Adam is one thing or another. It's just my interpretation of how he comes across.
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Personally I don't see her being totally incapable of doing anything, if this was the case that she could barely get out of bed I would hope June Neville and Colin would of intervened and Been of the view, if she was incapable of looking after herself, it would be potentially dangerous and totally unfair on 2 young boisterous children to be in the care of someone in this state, yes Sheila was on medication, yes it would of affected her somewhat but I don't see any responsible doctor prescribing a drug to a young mother of twins medication that rendered her incapable of doing anything, even to the point she couldn't hold a conversation.
One of the conundrums with a guilty JB scenario is how Sheila was seemingly easily coerced to lay down and be shot without a struggle, and if this whole 'framing Sheila' plan was premeditated, how could JB have been so confident that the option to do so would be achievable.
Sheila being in a medicated unresponsive state is suggested to overcome this hurdle.
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Is it not simply the case that those of a guilty view are more willing to see Sheila as lethargic due to her medication, whereas those with an innocent view are more willing to see her as being full of energy and capable.
Maybe the reality is somewhere in between?
ABSOLUTELY.................and is the point I've made re Julie in the "Rellies And Retired PO" thread.
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Dont worry Roch, he reported me the other day for telling him to p off. No one takes him series Roch but have to agree he is only here to annoy and like Jane said put him on ignore
I'll report you again if neccessary.
I don't know if you're a guilter or supporter as you don't create threads & I've never read or responded to you're posts. Apart from last week when you incorrectly said Taff Jones wasn't taken off heading the case.
However if you quote my posts in future I have no option but to read them. Feel free to put me on ignore.
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One of the conundrums with a guilty JB scenario is how Sheila was seemingly easily coerced to lay down and be shot without a struggle, and if this whole 'framing Sheila' plan was premeditated, how could JB have been so confident that the option to do so would be achievable.
Sheila being in a medicated unresponsive state is suggested to overcome this hurdle.
I don't see that happening personally, it makes no sense, who would lay down to be executed with their babies on the next room? And at what awkward angle would this weapon of had to be fired at to achieve these wounds? Jeremy would of literally had to get her to sit down then practically lay in front of her to do this? Do you see anyone doing this? Willingly? There were no defence wounds so she would of had to be totally compliant, or this was done at her own hand!? Why take that risk?
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I don't see that happening personally, it makes no sense, who would lay down to be executed with their babies on the next room? And at what awkward angle would this weapon of had to be fired at to achieve these wounds? Jeremy would of literally had to get her to sit down then practically lay in front of her to do this? Do you see anyone doing this? Willingly? There were no defence wounds so she would of had to be totally compliant, or this was done at her own hand!? Why take that risk?
Sheila was easy to control. You know this. Bamber knew this as he had seen her hours earlier.
Anyway, can you explain how Sheila committed the massacre. To match the crime scene. You didn't in my recent thread.
Please include 1/2 phone calls from Nevill. A savage kitchen fight & two rifle chamber/breach/reloads.
You can pretend that Sheila was not on Haloperidol.
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Personally I don't see her being totally incapable of doing anything, if this was the case that she could barely get out of bed I would hope June Neville and Colin would of intervened and Been of the view, if she was incapable of looking after herself, it would be potentially dangerous and totally unfair on 2 young boisterous children to be in the care of someone in this state, yes Sheila was on medication, yes it would of affected her somewhat but I don't see any responsible doctor prescribing a drug to a young mother of twins medication that rendered her incapable of doing anything, even to the point she couldn't hold a conversation.
Lucy, we're given polarized versions of how Sheila was. I believe them all because ALL are possible. I don't believe her to have been a danger to her children in any way OTHER than she was unreliable and unpredictable. THAT is what the various descriptions of her behaviour lead me to believe.
I really don't know what to make of the alleged conversation re child care. The boys lived -for the most part- with Colin. Sheila was on a short visit to the farm -in fact was due to go back on the Thursday because the boys were going away with Colin on Friday- I'm really curious as to exactly WHEN this alleged child care was thought to be needed which in turn, make me suspicious that such a conversation took place. The situation -between Colin, his family, the Bambers and Sheila- was being managed.
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I don't see that happening personally, it makes no sense, who would lay down to be executed with their babies on the next room? And at what awkward angle would this weapon of had to be fired at to achieve these wounds? Jeremy would of literally had to get her to sit down then practically lay in front of her to do this? Do you see anyone doing this? Willingly? There were no defence wounds so she would of had to be totally compliant, or this was done at her own hand!? Why take that risk?
Yes it's a bit of a mystery, but we simply don't know the answer. The drugs may have been a factor or she may have been absolutely petrified after seeing June lying dead on the floor, she may have already seen her children or she may have been threatened that they would be killed if she didn't comply.
I don't know how, in a 'JB guilty scenario' he could be so certain that he would be able to coerce and frame Sheila. I've previously suggested that it may be the case that the option to frame Sheila simply presented itself rather than being the original plan. Just theorising though. :-\
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Sheila was easy to control. You know this.
Anyway, can you explain how Sheila committed the massacre. To match the crime scene. You didn't in my recent thread.
Please include 1/2 phone calls from Nevill. A savage kitchen fight & two rifle chamber/breach/reloads.
You can pretend that Sheila was not on Haloperidol.
Why would I need to pretend Adam? If you read my previous reply I put I accept Sheila was on medication that would of affected her somewhat, to the degree you claim, I don't think that's true, that's my opinion, I'm entitled to it as are you, we don't need to agree which is the whole point of this forum to challenge different views, you come accross as so aggressive, in order to make up a plausible scenario you need to go through every piece much like a jigsaw until it all fits together, for me it's not doing that at all either way right now which is why I'm here.
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One of the conundrums with a guilty JB scenario is how Sheila was seemingly easily coerced to lay down and be shot without a struggle, and if this whole 'framing Sheila' plan was premeditated, how could JB have been so confident that the option to do so would be achievable.
Sheila being in a medicated unresponsive state is suggested to overcome this hurdle.
He couldn't have "known". He could only have planned for and wouldn't have planned for anything he believed might fail. We also have no idea of what sort of threats/coercion was placed on her.
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Yes it's a bit of a mystery, but we simply don't know the answer. The drugs may have been a factor or she may have been absolutely petrified after seeing June lying dead on the floor, she may have already seen her children or she may have been threatened that they would be killed if she didn't comply.
I don't know how, in a 'JB guilty scenario' he could be so certain that he would be able to coerce and frame Sheila. I've previously suggested that it may be the case that the option to frame Sheila simply presented itself rather than being the original plan. Just theorising though. :-\
I know, I guess we will never really know, I just have a hard time thinking a woman would accept this, she had no defence wounds so if the boys had already been killed she had not got into a physical altercation with anyone, surely there would of been some kind of physical contact on her part?
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Why would I need to pretend Adam? If you read my previous reply I put I accept Sheila was on medication that would of affected her somewhat, to the degree you claim, I don't think that's true, that's my opinion, I'm entitled to it as are you, we don't need to agree which is the whole point of this forum to challenge different views, you come accross as so aggressive, in order to make up a plausible scenario you need to go through every piece much like a jigsaw until it all fits together, for me it's not doing that at all either way right now which is why I'm here.
So you agree that Sheila could not have committed the massacre. Good.
Bamber could easily have moved Sheila a few feet. He had lots of options.
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Lucy, we're given polarized versions of how Sheila was. I believe them all because ALL are possible. I don't believe her to have been a danger to her children in any way OTHER than she was unreliable and unpredictable. THAT is what the various descriptions of her behaviour lead me to believe.
I really don't know what to make of the alleged conversation re child care. The boys lived -for the most part- with Colin. Sheila was on a short visit to the farm -in fact was due to go back on the Thursday because the boys were going away with Colin on Friday- I'm really curious as to exactly WHEN this alleged child care was thought to be needed which in turn, make me suspicious that such a conversation took place. The situation -between Colin, his family, the Bambers and Sheila- was being managed.
I believe the conversation did take place, it would of had to, June had asked her friend to pray for Sheila and said she wanted her to come and form an opinion of her health, this was a worried mother/gramdparenti
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I know, I guess we will never really know, I just have a hard time thinking a woman would accept this, she had no defence wounds so if the boys had already been killed she had not got into a physical altercation with anyone, surely there would of been some kind of physical contact on her part?
I occurs to me that she probably was unaware that the boys were dead. Surely, had she known -had she SEEN them- her first instincts would have been to have held them?
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So you agree that Sheila could not have committed the massacre. Good.
Bamber could easily have moved Sheila a few feet. He had lots of options.
That's not what I said is it Adam? Seriously? Is that best you can come up with? And if he moved her after shooting her there would of been blood smears, t was said she was shot sitting up and had not moved after the first shot was fired.
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I occurs to me that she probably was unaware that the boys were dead. Surely, had she known -had she SEEN them- her first instincts would have been to have held them?
My thoughts exactly, Jane.
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I know, I guess we will never really know, I just have a hard time thinking a woman would accept this, she had no defence wounds so if the boys had already been killed she had not got into a physical altercation with anyone, surely there would of been some kind of physical contact on her part?
I understand your concerns, but I do think that it's possible that Sheila simply froze out of fear, as Jane just mentioned, we don't know what (if any) threats were used to coerce Sheila.
Looking at this in isolation, it seems fairly reasonable to consider the alternative of Sheila being responsible.
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I believe the conversation did take place, it would of had to, June had asked her friend to pray for Sheila and said she wanted her to come and form an opinion of her health, this was a worried mother/gramdparenti
The direct & indirect evidence from PB, BW, Sheila, June & Nevill , hours before the massacre show there was no fostering conversation.
It's obvious why Bamber said there was. Although he made a mistake saying Sheila was 'non responsive' & 'not paying attention'. As the judge said the alledged conversation cannot be used as a reason for the massacre.
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I occurs to me that she probably was unaware that the boys were dead. Surely, had she known -had she SEEN them- her first instincts would have been to have held them?
That's a fair point.
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Who said they did? They didn't know what medication she was taking. They were talking about how she behaved which just proves the notion of over sedation.
who said they did well they did when the said she couldent biol a kettle or make beans on toast if they wernt close to her how the hell would they know that.
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That's not what I said is it Adam? Seriously? Is that best you can come up with? And if he moved her after shooting her there would of been blood smears, t was said she was shot sitting up and had not moved after the first shot was fired.
If she was effected 'somewhat' by the moderate level of Haloperidol she was on, which is normal, she did not commit the massacre. And was easy to control.
I don't see what the problem is.
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I believe the conversation did take place, it would of had to, June had asked her friend to pray for Sheila and said she wanted her to come and form an opinion of her health, this was a worried mother/gramdparenti
Yes, I agree. However, from what I've been given to understand of June's personality, "worried" -on a permanent basis- is an accurate description. I don't see how, with the children's daily care being catered for -albeit somewhat imperfectly- MORE child care -unless the suggestion was that she should give up all rights to them? Unlikely, I'd have thought- was an option.
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I understand your concerns, but I do think that it's possible that Sheila simply froze out of fear, as Jane just mentioned, we don't know what (if any) threats were used to coerce Sheila.
Looking at this in isolation, it seems fairly reasonable to consider the alternative of Sheila being responsible.
Agreed, god knows what would go through someone's mind in this situation, I feel though as a mother myself you would of had to kill me to get to my children I would of fought for them, why wasn't she in their room? Why did she run out and leave them? Unless she knew they were dead? Why were they still sleeping soundly with one still sucking their thumb? (I get goosebumps writing that it's so horrendous), how on earth did they not wake up? There was shots being fired, and physical fights it would of been very loud. This bit Troubles me.
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If she was effected 'somewhat' by the moderate level of Haloperidol she was on, which is normal, she did not commit the massacre. And was easy to control.
I don't see what the problem is.
That's because your to stubborn or ignorant to consider any other view, which is fine. Do you have first hand knowledge or have you personally dealt with someone on this amount of drug and with this psychiatric condition?
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who said they did well they did when the said she couldent biol a kettle or make beans on toast if they wernt close to her how the hell would they know that.
Nugs you can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre. How do I know ? Because you haven't.
Sheila was on Haloperidol. She could not perform basic functions.
The relatives knew as they knew Sheila. Her best friend said a week before the massacre Sheila needed help getting off sofa's.
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Yes, I agree. However, from what I've been given to understand of June's personality, "worried" -on a permanent basis- is an accurate description. I don't see how, with the children's daily care being catered for -albeit somewhat imperfectly- MORE child care -unless the suggestion was that she should give up all rights to them? Unlikely, I'd have thought- was an option.
But if her illness was under control why the need for it at all? Maybe June knew she was heading for another breakdown! Hence the conversation? Just a thought?.
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That's because your to stubborn or ignorant to consider any other view, which is fine. Do you have first hand knowledge or have you personally dealt with someone on this amount of drug and with this psychiatric condition?
No but I created a thread. Which showed 60+ side effects. Did you not see it ? It's a very powerful drug.
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Agreed, god knows what would go through someone's mind in this situation, I feel though as a mother myself you would of had to kill me to get to my children I would of fought for them, why wasn't she in their room? Why did she run out and leave them? Unless she knew they were dead? Why were they still sleeping soundly with one still sucking their thumb? (I get goosebumps writing that it's so horrendous), how on earth did they not wake up? There was shots being fired, and physical fights it would of been very loud. This bit Troubles me.
I've never been entirely certain that the picture that's been painted of "two sleeping angels" who never woke, to be the correct one -I'm a realist- but on the few occasions I've mentioned this, I've been jumped on from a great height for the suggestion that it was any other way. I understand that some people don't want to see it any other way.
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Nugs you can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre. How do I know ? Because you haven't.
Sheila was on Haloperidol. She could not perform basic functions.
The relatives knew as they knew Sheila. Her best friend said a week before the massacre Sheila needed help getting off sofa's.
No Adam, if she couldn't get off the sofa how was she clothes shopping with the boys and June? Why was she left unsupervised with her children? How utterly careless would that be ?
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I've never been entirely certain that the picture that's been painted of "two sleeping angels" who never woke, to be the correct one -I'm a realist- but on the few occasions I've mentioned this, I've been jumped on from a great height for the suggestion that it was any other way. I understand that some people don't want to see it any other way.
I know, these children didn't even stir during this massacre? Why not? My children would of been up and screaming their heads off (god forbid)
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No but I created a thread. Which showed 60+ side effects. Did you not see it ? It's a very powerful drug.
Agreed, but how she's described is to conflicting and/or exaggerated
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Agreed, god knows what would go through someone's mind in this situation, I feel though as a mother myself you would of had to kill me to get to my children I would of fought for them, why wasn't she in their room? Why did she run out and leave them? Unless she knew they were dead? Why were they still sleeping soundly with one still sucking their thumb? (I get goosebumps writing that it's so horrendous), how on earth did they not wake up? There was shots being fired, and physical fights it would of been very loud. This bit Troubles me.
You are right, it is horrendous, I guess having looked at this for so long I've gotten used too used to it, almost like reading about characters in a book.
The twins not waking up is odd. Perhaps they were the first victims?
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No Adam, if she couldn't get off the sofa how was she clothes shopping with the boys and June? Why was she left unsupervised with her children? How utterly careless would that be ?
Shopping with the boys & June ? Source please. I have a source for the sofa.
Sheila couldn't perform basic functions. She was on Haloperidol. Committing an intense, physical, lengthy, complicated, emotional massacre was impossible. Even if fully fit as Nevill was up & awake.
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But if her illness was under control why the need for it at all? Maybe June knew she was heading for another breakdown! Hence the conversation? Just a thought?.
It's possible that June was projecting. PERHAPS it was June who wasn't coping. Perhaps she was voicing her own fears. For a woman with her own mental frailties to cope with, having two small, boisterous boys and their lethargic mother to cope with, in the middle of harvest, upsetting the balance of her routine, would, I imagine, have been difficult.
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Nugs you can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre. How do I know ? Because you haven't.
Sheila was on Haloperidol. She could not perform basic functions.
The relatives knew as they knew Sheila. Her best friend said a week before the massacre Sheila needed help getting off sofa's.
Maybe you should read what Colin has to say about how much -little- the relatives knew of Sheila's illness.
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Sheila was easy to control. You know this. Bamber knew this as he had seen her hours earlier.
Anyway, can you explain how Sheila committed the massacre. To match the crime scene. You didn't in my recent thread.
Please include 1/2 phone calls from Nevill. A savage kitchen fight & two rifle chamber/breach/reloads.
You can pretend that Sheila was not on Haloperidol.
Adam who told you Sheila was easy to control?
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You are right, it is horrendous, I guess having looked at this for so long I've gotten used too used to it, almost like reading about characters in a book.
The twins not waking up is odd. Perhaps they were the first victims?
Yes the twins (& June) not waking is odd.
Sheila was going so 'crazy' an 'awake' Nevill phoned Bamber & the fifth furthest away police station.
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No but I created a thread. Which showed 60+ side effects. Did you not see it ? It's a very powerful drug.
she side efects dont effect everybody drugs effect people in diffrent ways .
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Shopping with the boys & June ? Source please. I have a source for the sofa.
Sheila couldn't perform basic functions. She was on Haloperidol. Committing an intense, physical, lengthy, complicated, emotional massacre was impossible. Even if fully fit as Nevill was up & awake.
It's in carol Ann lees book near the beginning, they were shopping for trousers for the boys, the man said she didn't speak and recoiled in horror when on leaving she turned round and smiled with bright Red lipstick smeared all over her teeth,
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Yes the twins (& June) not waking is odd.
Sheila was going so 'crazy' an 'awake' Nevill phoned Bamber & the fifth furthest away police station.
Adam maybe Jeremy was in shock due to the phone call from his Dad and did not know quite what to do and needed time to decide if this was urgent or just Sheila having a "moment" we don't know what he felt like if indeed he received a call.
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she side efects dont effect everybody drugs effect people in diffrent ways .
I know. All the 60+ side effects would make it impossible for Sheila to commit the massacre. Whether she was suffering from 20 or 30 of them.
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You are right, it is horrendous, I guess having looked at this for so long I've gotten used too used to it, almost like reading about characters in a book.
The twins not waking up is odd. Perhaps they were the first victims?
That's a point I've pushed on several occasions. We believe what we first hear/read if we believe the person telling/writing A) has more knowledge than we of the subject B) is telling the truth. Thus it was when I first joined, I believed that pictures were available which would see Jeremy released withing weeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and following that line, THUS it was, that Jeremy was able to convince police that Sheila, because of her mental history, was capable of using a gun proficiently enough to kill. We accept what we're told and go on repeating it like a mantra until we stop and question.
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It's in carol Ann lees book near the beginning, they were shopping for trousers for the boys, the man said she didn't speak and recoiled in horror when on leaving she turned round and smiled with bright Red lipstick smeared all over her teeth,
Lucy I remember that now she was quite capable of shopping her over sedation must not have kicked in at that stage.
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You are right, it is horrendous, I guess having looked at this for so long I've gotten used too used to it, almost like reading about characters in a book.
The twins not waking up is odd. Perhaps they were the first victims?
I can't see how they would of slept through Hartley, I have 4 boys under 11 and we wake in the night my husband and I know not to flush the toilet as that alone wakes them? Why go for the twins first though?, they were the least threat in the house? No one went in that room after they were murdered as there was no blood smears/spatters on the carpet so not one of the adults checked them during this? Why not? They surely would of been first port of call for any caring mother/grandparent?
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Adam maybe Jeremy was in shock due to the phone call from his Dad and did not know quite what to do and needed time to decide if this was urgent or just Sheila having a "moment" we don't know what he felt like if indeed he received a call.
What's that got to do with the twins not waking while an awake Nevill was trying to control a 'crazy' Sheila.
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Firstly, if Sheila was 'so easy to control' and this 'benefited Bamber' - how was he unable to correctly shoot her on the first occasion? The most crucial shot he had to make that night - and he couldn't even control her properly or aim it properly. He also knowingly risked having to shoot her more than once -because he knowingly used a low calibre weapon intended for killing vermin.
What rubbish.
I think he was anxious to get the whole thing over with after shooting over twenty times already, he was probably on a cocktail of narcotics from cannabis to cocaine so on a euphoric high and just wanted to dispatch Sheila as quickly as possible before she had time to worry about the twins. He had to use the Anschutz because it tallied with the uncorroborated story from his mouth about leaving the weapon on the settle.
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Lucy I remember that now she was quite capable of shopping her over sedation must not have kicked in at that stage.
If she was that sedated and didn't have any interest in anything, the last thing she would of done was go shopping surely!
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B- U - L - L - S - H - I - T Alert!
If the two shots had been suspicious - they would have been suspicious for every copper who walked in to that farmhouse from Harris downwards and viewed Sheila's body - FROM THE VERY OFF. The two shots miraculously only came suspicious much later. They would have been suspicious with immediate effect. The police don't make assumptions and we are talking about tonnes of coppers from divisional commanders and experienced CID to experienced firearms and keen bobbies looking to make a mark. Oh.. and I forgot - also SOC & photography - who's very role is to specifically study and record the scene.
Maybe they were overcome after seeing four dead bodies then a pretty young girl in that position and averted their eyes in sorrow.
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I can't see how they would of slept through Hartley, I have 4 boys under 11 and we wake in the night my husband and I know not to flush the toilet as that alone wakes them? Why go for the twins first though?, they were the least threat in the house? No one went in that room after they were murdered as there was no blood smears/spatters on the carpet so not one of the adults checked them during this? Why not? They surely would of been first port of call for any caring mother/grandparent?
I agree the twins may have woken while Nevill was trying to control a 'crazy' Sheila & ringing Bamber & the fifth furthest away police station. But they didn't.
There is no reason why the twins would wake from Bamber. The only noise was downstairs in a big house.
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I think he was anxious to get the whole thing over with after shooting over twenty times already, he was probably on a cocktail of narcotics from cannabis to cocaine so on a euphoric high and just wanted to dispatch Sheila as quickly as possible before she had time to worry about the twins. He had to use the Anschutz because it tallied with the uncorroborated story from his mouth about leaving the weapon on the settle.
I agree Roch, everyone says Jeremy was a good shot that's why they were all on target, but, he couldn't shoot a willing victim sitting in front of him at point blank range? Really....
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It's in carol Ann lees book near the beginning, they were shopping for trousers for the boys, the man said she didn't speak and recoiled in horror when on leaving she turned round and smiled with bright Red lipstick smeared all over her teeth,
So she couldn't even put lipstick on her lips.
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I agree Roch, everyone says Jeremy was a good shot that's why they were all on target, but, he couldn't shoot a willing victim sitting in front of him at point blank range? Really....
Sheila couldn't shoot herself twice. Bamber accepted this.
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If this was the case why was she seen earlier that day skipping along the lane in high spirits with the twins? If she was that incapable of doing anything then why was she left in charge of 2 small children.?
I haven't been able to corroborate this incident. There's evidence from Len Foakes that she appeared normal, but contrary evidence from house painter Michael Horsnell at Vaulty Manor that she had severe mobility problems, as Adam has stated.
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I agree the twins may have woken while Nevill was trying to control a 'crazy' Sheila & ringing Bamber & the fifth furthest away police station. But they didn't.
There is no reason why the twins would wake from Bamber. The only noise was downstairs in a big house.
No it wasn't June was shot 7 times she'd got out of bed after she'd been shot and had bruises from hitting the door frame, and we are supposed to believe Sheila didn't even scream? Was totally compliant and over sedated to the point she made no noise? Let alone June, she must of been in horrendous pain and the shooter would of been upstairs at that point to
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I know. All the 60+ side effects would make it impossible for Sheila to commit the massacre. Whether she was suffering from 20 or 30 of them.
only if she was suffring from all of them and theres no real evdence she was.
davids allready qauted a long list of killers who were on the same medication if it was impossble for her to comit murder while taking it surely it should of been imposble for them as well.
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Sheila couldn't shoot herself twice. Bamber accepted this.
Yes she could it's not unheard of in suicides
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If she was that sedated and didn't have any interest in anything, the last thing she would of done was go shopping surely!
Lucy, it's not a question of what she would -or not- have done. That implies that she'd have made a choice. I think it was a question of her just going with the flow. I don't see her as spaced out as Adam would like to have us believe she was but I don't see her as making many decisions for herself, either. Especially when she was with her parents as it's quite natural for us to return to being the children we'd once been when we're with them.
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I haven't been able to corroborate this incident. There's evidence from Len Foakes that she appeared normal, but contrary evidence from house painter Michael Horsnell at Vaulty Manor that she had severe mobility problems, as Adam has stated.
The geese walking incident?
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So she couldn't even put lipstick on her lips.
Clearly she could, but it was all Over her teeth as well, she obviously didn't care what she looked like
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I can't see how they would of slept through Hartley, I have 4 boys under 11 and we wake in the night my husband and I know not to flush the toilet as that alone wakes them? Why go for the twins first though?, they were the least threat in the house? No one went in that room after they were murdered as there was no blood smears/spatters on the carpet so not one of the adults checked them during this? Why not? They surely would of been first port of call for any caring mother/grandparent?
All kids are different I guess, but my little one will wake at the flush of a loo also.
We'll never know, but I think that there are scenarios that would fit with the twins being the first victims, there may then never have been an opportunity for one of the adults to check on them.
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Lucy, it's not a question of what she would -or not- have done. That implies that she'd have made a choice. I think it was a question of her just going with the flow. I don't see her as spaced out as Adam would like to have us believe she was but I don't see her as making many decisions for herself, either. Especially when she was with her parents as it's quite natural for us to return to being the children we'd once been when we're with them.
Agreed, It would seem she was very compliant with June, I see what you mean by the projection, I think June was very worried about herself and Sheila.
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only if she was suffring from all of them and theres no real evdence she was.
davids allready qauted a long list of killers who were on the same medication if it was impossble for her to comit murder while taking it surely it should of been imposble for them as well.
:) So Sheila had to be sufferring from every one of the 60+ side effects, to not be able to commit the massacre. Not just 20 or 30.
Thanks Nugs.
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Yes she could it's not unheard of in suicides
Lucy I have researched the two shot suicide and it does happen. Tyler a member here posted an excellent link on this but I cannot find it
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No it wasn't June was shot 7 times she'd got out of bed after she'd been shot and had bruises from hitting the door frame, and we are supposed to believe Sheila didn't even scream? Was totally compliant and over sedated to the point she made no noise? Let alone June, she must of been in horrendous pain and the shooter would of been upstairs at that point to
Lucy, who has said that "we're supposed to believe"? NONE of us has ANY idea of how the carnage unfolded.
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Yes she could it's not unheard of in suicides
The pathologist said Sheila could not have fired the second shot.
Bamber accepted this when the police interviewed him.
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I know, these children didn't even stir during this massacre? Why not? My children would of been up and screaming their heads off (god forbid)
The most likely scenario in fitting with these circs - is that Sheila shot the twins prior to the disturbances involving her parents.
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if she couldent of done it becose of medication why did her husband think she had done it.
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Personally I don't see her being totally incapable of doing anything, if this was the case that she could barely get out of bed I would hope June Neville and Colin would of intervened and Been of the view, if she was incapable of looking after herself, it would be potentially dangerous and totally unfair on 2 young boisterous children to be in the care of someone in this state, yes Sheila was on medication, yes it would of affected her somewhat but I don't see any responsible doctor prescribing a drug to a young mother of twins medication that rendered her incapable of doing anything, even to the point she couldn't hold a conversation.
This was the reality of her condition; she could barely get out of bed. She would save what little energy she had for the twins' weekend visits, but midweek she was a mess and needed her Maida Vale friends to let her know her hair needed washing, her make up needed applying and her body smelt. All stemmed from the Haloperidol, on which she had overdosed if anything, and the tablets she took caused tremors, making it very difficult for her to have chambered a rifle, let alone shot it with any degree of accuracy.
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All kids are different I guess, but my little one will wake at the flush of a loo also.
We'll never know, but I think that there are scenarios that would fit with the twins being the first victims, there may then never have been an opportunity for one of the adults to check on them.
I personally think it was Neville who took the first shots, he was the greatest threats, maybe he ran downstairs honestly thinking she wouldn't hurt her boys. Whatever happened something was going on in the farm that night, Neville was rude on the phone which was unheard of, Sheila didn't say goodnight on the phone to her aunt. Something was brewing and Jeremy wasn't there.
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Lucy I have researched the two shot suicide and it does happen. Tyler a member here posted an excellent link on this but I cannot find it
The pathologist said Sheila could not have fired the second shot. Bamber accepted this when the police told him. It's in the police interviews.
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Yes she could it's not unheard of in suicides
Indeed, the pathologist Vanesiz states that 8% of gun related suicides he has been involved with had more than a single shot and in Sheilas case, the two shots didn't concern him.
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I haven't been able to corroborate this incident. There's evidence from Len Foakes that she appeared normal, but contrary evidence from house painter Michael Horsnell at Vaulty Manor that she had severe mobility problems, as Adam has stated.
I'm always interested to know what others understand as being "normal".
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The pathologist said Sheila could not have fired the second shot.
Bamber accepted this when the police interviewed him.
Adam could you give me a link for these statements please
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The pathologist said Sheila could not have fired the second shot.
Bamber accepted this when the police interviewed him.
No he didn't, he said she would of still been alive and had to of been for a time due to the blood pooling in her neck after the first shot
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I personally think it was Neville who took the first shots, he was the greatest threats, maybe he ran downstairs honestly thinking she wouldn't hurt her boys. Whatever happened something was going on in the farm that night, Neville was rude on the phone which was unheard of, Sheila didn't say goodnight on the phone to her aunt. Something was brewing and Jeremy wasn't there.
So Nevill was shot by Sheila & then spent 5/10 minutes ringing up Bamber & EP ?
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Otherwise.. perhaps her parents would have had no choice but to suggest to her - that needed extra help / assistance with the twins?
But she didn't have day to day control of them-this is what Jeremy didn't know and why his fostering story is preposterous. It was possible June suggested hiring some of the village girls to babysit as had happened in the past, but it just wasn't in any grandparents' remit to take charge of the twins without agreement from Colin, which would not have been forthcoming.
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No he didn't, he said she would of still been alive and had to of been for a time due to the blood pooling in her neck after the first shot
If bamber shot her why wait a while for the second shot! Why not finish it there and then? Or Sheila could of shot her self and sat there dazed and in tremendous pain and shot herself again to finish it off.
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Adam could you give me a link for these statements please
You need to read the police interviews. And also watch the 'Inheritance Killers' video. Both of which I've put on here.
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The most likely scenario in fitting with these circs - is that Sheila shot the twins prior to the disturbances involving her parents.
This is what I'm leaning towards. There would be no going back after that.
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One of the conundrums with a guilty JB scenario is how Sheila was seemingly easily coerced to lay down and be shot without a struggle, and if this whole 'framing Sheila' plan was premeditated, how could JB have been so confident that the option to do so would be achievable.
Sheila being in a medicated unresponsive state is suggested to overcome this hurdle.
She was woken in the middle of the night and probably led by the hand or at gunpoint and spun a tale of intruders, a story which lasted a matter of seconds and Sheila in her fragile state totally unawares. The two shots scenario suggests to me that all was done in a rush, which is why the mistake was made.
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So Nevill was shot by Sheila & then spent 5/10 minutes ringing up Bamber & EP ?
It said in the statement apparently Neville sounded distressed on the phone, didn't need to take up to 10 mins at all
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Adam could you give me a link for these statements please
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44956;image)
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If bamber shot her why wait a while for the second shot! Why not finish it there and then? Or Sheila could of shot her self and sat there dazed and in tremendous pain and shot herself again to finish it off.
How do you know when Bamber fired the second shot ?
You can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre. Although I generously said you can pretend Sheila was not on Haloperidol.
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It said in the statement apparently Neville sounded distressed on the phone, didn't need to take up to 10 mins at all
Bamber said he was 'sleeping like a log'. So several minutes. Then another 5 minutes giving EP details. Nevill could not speak after the upstairs shots.
At least you have started a scenario. Nevill made the phone calls after being shot.
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How do you know when Bamber fired the second shot ?
You can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre. Although I generously said you can pretend Sheila was not on Haloperidol.
Adam you can't make up stuff to suit you, as already agreed I have never said Sheila wasn't on haloperidol, you can't explain it either as you weren't there, neither was I, stop getting so irate and read things properly, no need for me to pretend anything at all.
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Adam you can't make up stuff to suit you, as already agreed I have never said Sheila wasn't on haloperidol, you can't explain it either as you weren't there, neither was I, stop getting so irate and read things properly, no need for me to pretend anything at all.
I've given a scenario of how Bamber committed the massacre. It matches the crime scene.
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I've given a scenario of how Bamber committed the massacre. It matches the crime scene.
Okay then, explain why Neville was rude on the phone earlier in the evening which was unheard of? Sheila was off on the phone to her aunt, her bed wasn't slept in and witness said something was going on that night, when Jeremy wasn't there?
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Bamber said he was 'sleeping like a log'. So several minutes. Then another 5 minutes giving EP details. Nevill could not speak after the upstairs shots.
At least you have started a scenario. Nevill made the phone calls after being shot.
I don't get this though, because phones only ring a certain amount of times before the line goes dead?.
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Agreed, god knows what would go through someone's mind in this situation, I feel though as a mother myself you would of had to kill me to get to my children I would of fought for them, why wasn't she in their room? Why did she run out and leave them? Unless she knew they were dead? Why were they still sleeping soundly with one still sucking their thumb? (I get goosebumps writing that it's so horrendous), how on earth did they not wake up? There was shots being fired, and physical fights it would of been very loud. This bit Troubles me.
Possibly because they were killed first. Jeremy had time to check the routine from the Sunday night so despatched them quickly. He would not have wanted them running around the landing. It is such a shocking crime which is why he will never be released.
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This is what I'm leaning towards. There would be no going back after that.
Can you imagine June's reaction - upon realising that Sheila had possibly shot the twins?
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Okay then, explain why Neville was rude on the phone earlier in the evening which was unheard of? Sheila was off on the phone to her aunt, her bed wasn't slept in and witness said something was going on that night, when Jeremy wasn't there?
If Sheila had 'morphed' into the teenaged girl she'd once been -argumentative, belligerent, uncooperative- sullen- it's perfectly possible that Nevill, after working all day, was fed up to the back teeth.
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No Adam, if she couldn't get off the sofa how was she clothes shopping with the boys and June? Why was she left unsupervised with her children? How utterly careless would that be ?
Did you hear of shopkeeper Barry Parker's account of that visit? Sheila was described as "vague and distant", she showed no interest in the children, she had lipstick smudged over her teeth. She did manage to speak, saying "I like them" when referring to the boys' new pumps, but it seemed as usual that June was the one in charge.
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I don't get this though, because phones only ring a certain amount of times before the line goes dead?.
We've talked about this on many occasions. Caroline actually managed to contact someone who was in charge of the exchange. Can't recall the details. Suffice to say things were very different, then, to how they are, now.
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I don't get this though, because phones only ring a certain amount of times before the line goes dead?.
Especially once Bamber's answering machine came on. But apparently Bamber had turned his answering machine off that night. So Nevill waited, and waited. While blood poured from his 4 shots.
Then Nevill rang EP 16 minutes later.
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We've talked about this on many occasions. Caroline actually managed to contact someone who was in charge of the exchange. Can't recall the details. Suffice to say things were very different, then, to how they are, now.
I haven't seen that. Apologies
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I haven't seen that. Apologies
No worries, Lucy :)
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Sheila and Jeremy weren't that close to the relatives, there was quite an age gap and the relatives weren't fully informed of Sheila's illness. Jeremy could and did say what he liked - all the close family were dead so couldn't argue. Like any criminal, he thought he was cleverer - he wasn't.
Presumably though, if he had witnessed her struggling due to various meds - he must have factored in that he would not be the only person who had witnessed this. Therefore, there might be a risk in attempting to infer that events were the result of a frenzied killing spree by Sheila.
I think the truth is closer to what Hartley has expressed - which is that there were times when she was struggling and times when she seemed brighter and more spritely.
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Did you hear of shopkeeper Barry Parker's account of that visit? Sheila was described as "vague and distant", she showed no interest in the children, she had lipstick smudged over her teeth. She did manage to speak, saying "I like them" when referring to the boys' new pumps, but it seemed as usual that June was the one in charge.
Yes that's what I was referring to, I agree Sheila was very compliant with June.
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I personally think it was Neville who took the first shots, he was the greatest threats, maybe he ran downstairs honestly thinking she wouldn't hurt her boys. Whatever happened something was going on in the farm that night, Neville was rude on the phone which was unheard of, Sheila didn't say goodnight on the phone to her aunt. Something was brewing and Jeremy wasn't there.
Remember it had to be thought that Nevill had made a call, and there was no bedroom telephone. He either had to be marched downstairs to the vicinity of the kitchen telephone or Jeremy had to replace one from the kitchen back to the bedroom before he left.
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Presumably though, if he had witnessed her struggling due to various meds - he must have factored in that he would not be the only person who had witnessed this. Therefore, there might be a risk in attempting to infer that events were the result of a frenzied killing spree by Sheila.
I think the truth is closer to what Hartley has expressed - which is that there were times when she was struggling and times when she seemed brighter and more spritely.
I think given that June had said she wanted her friend or family member to pray for Sheila and asked for someone to come and form an opinion of her health as he was so worried, June knew Sheila was heading for another breakdown, and the person who was sat at the table and said Sheila was very quiet an blurted out all people are evil and should be killed, they knew something was brewing.
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Remember it had to be thought that Nevill had made a call, and there was no bedroom telephone. He either had to be marched downstairs to the vicinity of the kitchen telephone or Jeremy had to replace one from the kitchen back to the bedroom before he left.
Maybe Nevill was planning to leave a message on Bamber's answering machine. Although Bamber had turned it off that night.
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Remember it had to be thought that Nevill had made a call, and there was no bedroom telephone. He either had to be marched downstairs to the vicinity of the kitchen telephone or Jeremy had to replace one from the kitchen back to the bedroom before he left.
Steve can you explain please not sure if I've missed something here.
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I'm always interested to know what others understand as being "normal".
Len Foakes saw Sheila at 12:30pm on the Tuesday with one of the boys and Crispy. She smiled to him and said "Hello Len". June took her to see Elizabeth Smith that afternoon and again all appeared normal. The usual routine for Nicholas and Daniel was for them to go up to bed at 7:30pm after their bath. Probably a bit early but they were only six years old.
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If bamber shot her why wait a while for the second shot! Why not finish it there and then? Or Sheila could of shot her self and sat there dazed and in tremendous pain and shot herself again to finish it off.
He probably dithered as to what to do. Sheila's hand would have involuntarily gone up to her neck, which is where the smudging occurred. He then probably put the weapon in her hand and squeezed the trigger for the second shot.
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Okay then, explain why Neville was rude on the phone earlier in the evening which was unheard of? Sheila was off on the phone to her aunt, her bed wasn't slept in and witness said something was going on that night, when Jeremy wasn't there?
He was probably tired after a hard day, Jeremy had left without collecting the last load of rape and with Sheila showing no interest in the twins he may have felt that too much of the childcare burden was falling on his wife. The fact that he asked Barbara why she had not come in that day suggests that the problem was about workload. One wonders to what extent Nevill understood his daughter's illness.
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Len Foakes saw Sheila at 12:30pm on the Tuesday with one of the boys and Crispy. She smiled to him and said "Hello Len". June took her to see Elizabeth Smith that afternoon and again all appeared normal. The usual routine for Nicholas and Daniel was for them to go up to bed at 7:30pm after their bath. Probably a bit early but they were only six years old.
So going by that, "Hello Len" means 'normal'? Elizabeth Smith thinks "all appeared normal" but the shop keeper who saw her prior to her visit with ES, clearly didn't think lipstick on teeth was 'normal'. It really becomes a little confusing, doesn't it?
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I think given that June had said she wanted her friend or family member to pray for Sheila and asked for someone to come and form an opinion of her health as he was so worried, June knew Sheila was heading for another breakdown, and the person who was sat at the table and said Sheila was very quiet an blurted out all people are evil and should be killed, they knew something was brewing.
Jeremy Bamber is in prison because he would have inherited. Once his mam and dad were killed, there was nobody to protect him from Robert Boutflour and his daughter. His daughter had already labelled Jeremy as a 'threat' (to their livelihoods) prior to the killings. This is a very telling event (IMO) - as it clearly marks Jeremy's card. Some of Jeremy's own behaviour has simply reinforced the relatives' suspicion of him. The result being - anything that could be gleaned from events that pointed towards Sheila was dismissed. Everything that could be interpreted as pointing towards Jeremy was soaked up and fed upon in a kind of frenzy.
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Can you imagine June's reaction - upon realising that Sheila had possibly shot the twins?
There's no evidence June left the master bedroom, being pinned to the pillow by Jeremy's first salvo. He would then have to scamper back downstairs to reload, which is totally unrealistic for Sheila to accomplish.
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Nevill could have rushed downstairs already injured wanting to phone the police or Jeremy for help but hot on his tail was Sheila I seem to recall blood was found on the worktop by the phone.
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Okay then, explain why Neville was rude on the phone earlier in the evening which was unheard of? Sheila was off on the phone to her aunt, her bed wasn't slept in and witness said something was going on that night, when Jeremy wasn't there?
Sheila wasn't off with PB. She just spent 3 - 4 minutes saying 'yes' or 'no'. Almost certainly because she was on Haloperidol.
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If Sheila had 'morphed' into the teenaged girl she'd once been -argumentative, belligerent, uncooperative- sullen- it's perfectly possible that Nevill, after working all day, was fed up to the back teeth.
I think she had passed that stage Jane. She now found it an effort to speak, she looked for like-minded people whichever place she frequented but found no solace anywhere. Her conversation with Helen Grimster in which she mentions suicide is indicative of her mental state.
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Yes that's what I was referring to, I agree Sheila was very compliant with June.
Yes sorry Lucy I did read your post after I had posted mine.
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Nevill could have rushed downstairs already injured wanting to phone the police or Jeremy for help but hot on his tail was Sheila I seem to recall blood was found on the worktop by the phone.
Hot on Nevill's tail was Sheila ? :). She was on Haloperidol.
After being shot 4 times & unable to speak, it was too late for Nevill to spend 5 minutes phoning Bamber. Then 16 minutes later another 5 minutes phoning the fifth furthest police station.
You know this.
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Maybe Nevill was planning to leave a message on Bamber's answering machine. Although Bamber had turned it off that night.
Adam stop being sarcastic.
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Steve can you explain please not sure if I've missed something here.
Well Jeremy needed an alibi and his plan was to return to the Farm as quickly as possible after the murders so in effect Police would be his alibi. The pretext he came up with to get him back there was the telephone call from his dad requesting his assistance. As has been mentioned here one gets into a very convoluted scenario with the telephone call because it has to be made before Nevill's larynx is broken in the struggle, and he has to be out of the master bedroom in order to make it due to the absence of the telephone in that room.
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Hot on Nevill's tail was Sheila ? :). She was on Haloperidol.
After being shot 4 times & unable to speak, it was too late for Nevill to spend 5 minutes phoning Bamber. Then 16 minutes later another 5 minutes phoning the fifth furthest police station.
You know this.
Adam how do you know Sheila was unable to speak sadly nobody can tell us as they are dead :( so you can offer no proof of this just like I can off no proof Sheila murdered her family.
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Adam how do you know Sheila was unable to speak sadly nobody can tell us as they are dead :( so you can offer no proof of this just like I can off no proof Sheila murdered her family.
Because he was shot 4 times upstairs. Which meant he could not speak.
Have you not read up on the case ?
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Well Jeremy needed an alibi and his plan was to return to the Farm as quickly as possible after the murders so in effect Police would be his alibi. The pretext he came up with to get him back there was the telephone call from his dad requesting his assistance. As has been mentioned here one gets into a very convoluted scenario with the telephone call because it has to be made before Nevill's larynx is broken in the struggle, and he has to be out of the master bedroom in order to make it due to the absence of the telephone in that room.
Agree, Neville wasn't shot in bed, so where was he when his wife and grandchildren and potentially daughter were being slaughtered.? Was Sheila downstairs messing about with the gun? He went downstairs? Had he been to bed? It's so confusing?
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Jeremy Bamber is in prison because he would have inherited. Once his mam and dad were killed, there was nobody to protect him from Robert Boutflour and his daughter. His daughter had already labelled Jeremy as a 'threat' (to their livelihoods) prior to the killings. This is a very telling event (IMO) - as it clearly marks Jeremy's card. Some of Jeremy's own behaviour has simply reinforced the relatives' suspicion of him. The result being - anything that could be gleaned from events that pointed towards Sheila was dismissed. Everything that could be interpreted as pointing towards Jeremy was soaked up and fed upon in a kind of frenzy.
But Jeremy was tied to the Farm under the terms of his father's will. He could only escape from his life of drudgery upon his death. Nevill had left his estate to June, so with a double murder that's how Jeremy would inherit. He had already told Dorothy Foakes he wasn't going to share anything with Sheila, and so it transpired. Had the twins lived they would have been entitled to Sheila's share.
This is how Jeremy Bamber's mind worked, it's how it worked 31 years ago and it's how it works to this day.
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Adam stop being sarcastic.
Don't tell me what to do.
You're knowledge of the case is appalling, considering you have been following the case longer than me. You need to read up on it rather than trying ti tell me what to do.
And please submit you're scenario of how Sheila committed the massacre. Which you said you had. In 2014.
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Sheila wasn't off with PB. She just spent 3 - 4 minutes saying 'yes' or 'no'. Almost certainly because she was on Haloperidol.
Or she was brooding over a pending massacre? 'tonight's the night' is probably what was in Sheila's head - not Jeremy's.
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I think given that June had said she wanted her friend or family member to pray for Sheila and asked for someone to come and form an opinion of her health as he was so worried, June knew Sheila was heading for another breakdown, and the person who was sat at the table and said Sheila was very quiet an blurted out all people are evil and should be killed, they knew something was brewing.
Yes the Bambers had taken their eye off the ball, their hands full with Sheila's problems. Then came Jeremy..
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Agree, Neville wasn't shot in bed, so where was he when his wife and grandchildren and potentially daughter were being slaughtered.? Was Sheila downstairs messing about with the gun? He went downstairs? Had he been to bed? It's so confusing?
You confuse yourself.
The Bamber scenario is very simple. And matches the crime scene. But all high profile cases will have conspiracy theorists.
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Or she was brooding over a pending massacre? 'tonight's the night' is probably what was in Sheila's head - not Jeremy's.
:)
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Jeremy Bamber is in prison because he would have inherited. Once his mam and dad were killed, there was nobody to protect him from Robert Boutflour and his daughter. His daughter had already labelled Jeremy as a 'threat' (to their livelihoods) prior to the killings. This is a very telling event (IMO) - as it clearly marks Jeremy's card. Some of Jeremy's own behaviour has simply reinforced the relatives' suspicion of him. The result being - anything that could be gleaned from events that pointed towards Sheila was dismissed. Everything that could be interpreted as pointing towards Jeremy was soaked up and fed upon in a kind of frenzy.
I believe much -if not, ALL- of what Ann has to say about Jeremy, to have been a parrot of what RWB said of him. I'm inclined to believe there was no little animosity on RWB's part, towards Nevill. It had been RWB who'd arranged for Nevill to work on the Speakman farm, but it seems that because of Nevill's financial position, he'd become far more affluent than RWB, to the point where it was he, rather than RWB who appeared to be the controlling force. Their positions, despite RWB being the elder AND married to the eldest sister, seem to have reversed. It's possible that RWB saw much of what the then childless, Bambers had accrued, as eventually finding its way to his side of the family. The advent of Sheila and Jeremy would have put paid to such notions. It's easy to imagine him grumbling/muttering, to Ann and David, about every penny the Bambers appeared to be 'wasting' on the adopted pair., when his two could have put it to much better use if it had been theirs............or his! I have no problem with this. It's how some families are. I'm very reliably told that it's how MOST wealthy families are. It's certainly how MANY families are when it comes to the inclusion of adopted children..........................but it doesn't mean that Jeremy is innocent.
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So going by that, "Hello Len" means 'normal'? Elizabeth Smith thinks "all appeared normal" but the shop keeper who saw her prior to her visit with ES, clearly didn't think lipstick on teeth was 'normal'. It really becomes a little confusing, doesn't it?
Maybe the elderly widow didn't notice her lipstick or her mobility issues, which she undoubtedly was suffering from that Tuesday.
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Or she was brooding over a pending massacre? 'tonight's the night' is probably what was in Sheila's head - not Jeremy's.
That's what I think...
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I believe much -if not, ALL- of what Ann has to say about Jeremy, to have been a parrot of what RWB said of him. I'm inclined to believe there was no little animosity on RWB's part, towards Nevill. It had been RWB who'd arranged for Nevill to work on the Speakman farm, but it seems that because of Nevill's financial position, he'd become far more affluent than RWB, to the point where it was he, rather than RWB who appeared to be the controlling force. Their positions, despite RWB being the elder AND married to the eldest sister, seem to have reversed. It's possible that RWB saw much of what the then childless, Bambers had accrued, as eventually finding its way to his side of the family. The advent of Sheila and Jeremy would have put paid to such notions. It's easy to imagine him grumbling/muttering, to Ann and David, about every penny the Bambers appeared to be 'wasting' on the adopted pair., when his two could have put it to much better use if it had been theirs............or his! I have no problem with this. It's how some families are. I'm very reliably told that it's how MOST wealthy families are. It's certainly how MANY families are when it comes to the inclusion of adopted children..........................but it doesn't mean that Jeremy is innocent.
Of course this is all relative, because with Mabel Speakman's estate to be divided between Pamela and June Robert was hardly in the poorhouse..
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That's what I think...
I certainly don't!
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I think she had passed that stage Jane. She now found it an effort to speak, she looked for like-minded people whichever place she frequented but found no solace anywhere. Her conversation with Helen Grimster in which she mentions suicide is indicative of her mental state.
I'm inclined to agree with you, Steve. I was just looking for a reason for why Nevill sounded 'short' during a phone call.
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Agree, Neville wasn't shot in bed, so where was he when his wife and grandchildren and potentially daughter were being slaughtered.? Was Sheila downstairs messing about with the gun? He went downstairs? Had he been to bed? It's so confusing?
Nevill was shot four times in the master bedroom and on the landing. June was shot whilst sitting up from her bed.
Is there a scenario where this can fit Sheila, given that Nevill has already (allegedly) called Jeremy saying that Sheila is going berserk/crazy with the gun?
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Nevill was shot four times in the master bedroom and on the landing. June was shot whilst sitting up from her bed.
Is there a scenario where this can fit Sheila, given that Nevill has already (allegedly) called Jeremy saying that Sheila is going berserk/crazy with the gun?
Nope!
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Nope!
All whilst the twins are fast asleep.
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Of course this is all relative, because with Mabel Speakman's estate to be divided between Pamela and June Robert was hardly in the poorhouse..
Indeed Steve. I concur. But wealth is relative, isn't it? RWB's children went to state schools. Their training was technical as opposed to academic. They were both put to work at the family business. I don't recall that either of them enjoyed gap years, OR were financed for doing nothing, by RWB.
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Don't tell me what to do.
You're knowledge of the case is appalling, considering you have been following the case longer than me. You need to read up on it rather than trying ti tell me what to do.
And please submit you're scenario of how Sheila committed the massacre. Which you said you had. In 2014.
Adam I agree my knowledge on the case is appalling considering I have been on the forum longer than you and my knowledge is rubbish oh dear think I spent too much time larking around with my friends Did I have a scenario in 2014 so long ago forgot what it is and don't be so touchy I was not really telling you what to do it was merely a suggestion don't be sarcastic it shows you in a bad light but be sarcastic if you want :)
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I believe much -if not, ALL- of what Ann has to say about Jeremy, to have been a parrot of what RWB said of him. I'm inclined to believe there was no little animosity on RWB's part, towards Nevill. It had been RWB who'd arranged for Nevill to work on the Speakman farm, but it seems that because of Nevill's financial position, he'd become far more affluent than RWB, to the point where it was he, rather than RWB who appeared to be the controlling force. Their positions, despite RWB being the elder AND married to the eldest sister, seem to have reversed. It's possible that RWB saw much of what the then childless, Bambers had accrued, as eventually finding its way to his side of the family. The advent of Sheila and Jeremy would have put paid to such notions. It's easy to imagine him grumbling/muttering, to Ann and David, about every penny the Bambers appeared to be 'wasting' on the adopted pair., when his two could have put it to much better use if it had been theirs............or his! I have no problem with this. It's how some families are. I'm very reliably told that it's how MOST wealthy families are. It's certainly how MANY families are when it comes to the inclusion of adopted children..........................but it doesn't mean that Jeremy is innocent.
The fact that Uncle Bobby's side of the family are not painted in a very good light doesn't make Jeremy innocent. It doesn't make Sheila innocent either.
Mike Tesko once labelled Julie Mugford as 'Girlfriend from Hell'. I think Bobby was 'Uncle from Hell'. After June and Nevill were correctly judged by police to have been killed by their daughter - he set about framing their son for the killings.
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I certainly don't!
No body said you had to caroline.
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All whilst the twins are fast asleep.
The twins had to of been shot first otherwise they wouldn't of still been in bed sucking their thumbs (allegedly)
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The fact that Uncle Bobby's side of the family are not painted in a very good light doesn't make Jeremy innocent. It doesn't make Sheila innocent either.
Mike Tesko once labelled Julie Mugford as 'Girlfriend from Hell'. I think Bobby was 'Uncle from Hell'. After June and Nevill were correctly judged by police to have been killed by their daughter - he set about framing their son for the killings.
Well, as the judge said. "It was either Sheila or Jeremy". It was in MT's best interests to turn Jeremy into putty in Julie's hands. It suited the picture of him he wished us to see. I'm inclined, for very personal reasons, to see RWB as the "Uncle from Hell". I'm also HIGHLY suspicious of any father who is happy to be quoted as saying that he has the right to expect total obedience from his adult children, but whilst framing someone is neither moral nor ethical, it doesn't create innocence where there is guilt.
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Nevill was shot four times in the master bedroom and on the landing. June was shot whilst sitting up from her bed.
Is there a scenario where this can fit Sheila, given that Nevill has already (allegedly) called Jeremy saying that Sheila is going berserk/crazy with the gun?
Did the throat shot come first then? Why is their blood on the kitchen worktop by the phone? Neville was right by it given the blood staining. And phone was off the hook on polices arrival.
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Did the throat shot come first then? Why is their blood on the kitchen worktop by the phone? Neville was right by it given the blood staining. And phone was off the hook on polices arrival.
Leave aside the throat shot, Lucy. Before it got that far, it would likely have taken out teeth, jaw, part of the cheek and tongue, leaving a mouthful of blood. D'you STILL think he could have made a phone call AND stood and waited for Jeremy to answer, or not?
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From post 171 onwards - the title of this thread changes. How has that happened?
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From post 171 onwards - the title of this thread changes. How has that happened?
Someone must have changed it when they replied.
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Did the throat shot come first then? Why is their blood on the kitchen worktop by the phone? Neville was right by it given the blood staining. And phone was off the hook on polices arrival.
The four shots in the kitchen were all fatal, so yes the two shots to his face were upstairs.
Are you certain there was blood on the worktop near the phone? There is blood on the floor and what appears to be blood on the worktop near the bullets, but it isn't mentioned anywhere so it may not be.
The phone off the hook could be staged, there is no blood on the phone.
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The four shots in the kitchen were all fatal, so yes the two shots to his face were upstairs.
Are you certain there was blood on the worktop near the phone? There is blood on the floor and what appears to be blood on the worktop near the bullets, but it isn't mentioned anywhere so it may not be.
The phone off the hook could be staged, there is no blood on the phone.
Only from the crime scene photos, it looks like a smeared hand print, agreed the phone could of been staged or it could of been dropped, thing is if Jeremy did it why mention a phone call why make it up? It serves no purpose really, why didn't he wait until the bodies were discovered in the morning?
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Only from the crime scene photos, it looks like a smeared hand print, agreed the phone could of been staged or it could of been dropped, thing is if Jeremy did it why mention a phone call why make it up? It serves no purpose really, why didn't he wait until the bodies were discovered in the morning?
The phone call is his alibi. Although it was also his noose, as it limited the possible culprits down to him or Sheila.
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Only from the crime scene photos, it looks like a smeared hand print, agreed the phone could of been staged or it could of been dropped, thing is if Jeremy did it why mention a phone call why make it up? It serves no purpose really, why didn't he wait until the bodies were discovered in the morning?
Presumably you mean this photo?
I'm not convinced that the marks above the drawer on the left is actually blood. It isn't documented anywhere, I think it's just wear and tear.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4536;image)
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The phone call is his alibi. Although it was also his noose, as it limited the possible culprits down to him or Sheila.
I see that, I just can't decide either way there's so much for and against on both sides I'm more inclined to believe it's Sheila though:
I used to do homecare I looked after a schizophrenic man, I did his evening call nothing was amiss he seemed in good spirits although up and down during the week. I returned in the morning and couldn't get in, I called the police and they went in and he'd slit his own wrists and bled out, all is not always as it appears, I would never of thought for a minute he was capable of that.
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Presumably you mean this photo?
I'm not convinced that the marks above the drawer on the left is actually blood. It isn't documented anywhere, I think it's just wear and tear.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4536;image)
I agree. I think it was a much used draw and the finger marks are the result. Get a new cleaner, I'd say!!!
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I see that, I just can't decide either way there's so much for and against on both sides I'm more inclined to believe it's Sheila though:
I used to do homecare I looked after a schizophrenic man, I did his evening call nothing was amiss he seemed in good spirits although up and down during the week. I returned in the morning and couldn't get in, I called the police and they went in and he'd slit his own wrists and bled out, all is not always as it appears, I would never of thought for a minute he was capable of that.
There is nothing which suggests Sheila committed the massacre. There is a forensic evidence library incriminating Bamber on this forum.
Conspiracy therorists try to big up minor things. Such as Bamber moving a Sheila on Haloperidol a few feet from her bed. Although can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre.
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There is nothing which suggests Sheila committed the massacre. There is a forensic evidence library incriminating Bamber on this forum.
Conspiracy therorists try to big up minor things. Such as Bamber moving a Sheila on Haloperidol a few feet from her bed. Although can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre.
Adam you are obsessed with haloperidol, it's not the only factor in all of this!
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There is nothing which suggests Sheila committed the massacre.
Conspiracy therorists try to big up minor things.
There was a wealth of evidence indicating Sheila. The police could not destroy it all and some remains. Some is actually on this forum in plain sight. It has even been debated on (to some extent).
In short, Sheila killed everyone by retaining control of a loaded weapon. The injuries sustained by the other two adults, dramatically reduced any physical advantage that they may have had, either individually or collectively.
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There was a wealth of evidence indicating Sheila. The police could not destroy it all and some remains. Some is actually on this forum in plain sight. It has even been debated on (to some extent).
In short, Sheila killed everyone by retaining control of a loaded weapon. The injuries sustained by the other two adults, dramatically reduced any physical advantage that they may have had, either individually or collectively.
Sorry Roch., but I can't support that Nevill would have left Sheila with a gun pointed at her mother, and she could only have shot one person at a time. If she'd shot him first and he'd managed to get past her to go downstairs, wounded, he could just as easily hurled himself at her.
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Sorry Roch., but I can't support that Nevill would have left Sheila with a gun pointed at her mother, and she could only have shot one person at a time. If she'd shot him first and he'd managed to get past her to go downstairs, wounded, he could just as easily hurled himself at her.
Even though you may have genuine concerns - whatever the course of events and whatever the sequence of events that took place - the result was as I have stated above. It is not really possible to work out the dynamics of a mother and father being woken and confronted by an armed daughter; who may or may not have been hallucinating.
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There was a wealth of evidence indicating Sheila. The police could not destroy it all and some remains. Some is actually on this forum in plain sight. It has even been debated on (to some extent).
In short, Sheila killed everyone by retaining control of a loaded weapon. The injuries sustained by the other two adults, dramatically reduced any physical advantage that they may have had, either individually or collectively.
Roch, what one piece or pieces of evidence make you think Sheila? I personally think it was her to, I can't see her laying down to be shot in the neck totally compliant.
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Even though you may have genuine concerns - whatever the course of events and whatever the sequence of events that took place - the result was as I have stated above. It is not really possible to work out the dynamics of a mother and father being woken and confronted by an armed daughter; who may or may not have been hallucinating.
The result would have been far MORE guaranteed had it been an armed son they were confronting.
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Roch, what one piece or pieces of evidence make you think Sheila? I personally think it was her to, I can't see her laying down to be shot in the neck totally compliant.
Lucy, I think you only can't see it, because you don't believe you'd have done it. You need to have BEEN Sheila -in her head, living her life- before you can say what she'd have done.
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Even though you may have genuine concerns - whatever the course of events and whatever the sequence of events that took place - the result was as I have stated above. It is not really possible to work out the dynamics of a mother and father being woken and confronted by an armed daughter; who may or may not have been hallucinating.
But do you accept that she would have to reload the weapon and as Jane says beat her father to it? https://youtu.be/xG1TPk6cvPc
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Lucy, I think you only can't see it, because you don't believe you'd have done it. You need to have BEEN Sheila -in her head, living her life- before you can say what she'd have done.
So would everyone else have to of been Jeremy to say what he would of done?
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So would everyone else have to of been Jeremy to say what he would of done?
I think what Jane means is that mental illness manifests itself in a variety of forms, and whilst undoubtedly women have killed their families though gunshots before it remains an extremely rare means of extermination by the female gender.
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So would everyone else have to of been Jeremy to say what he would of done?
I have tried, Lucy. My job was about understanding what OTHERS would be capable of doing/feeling. In order not to be any part of this, it meant having to leave outside the door, any of "me".
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I think what Jane means is that mental illness manifests itself in a variety of forms, and whilst undoubtedly women have killed their families though gunshots before it remains an extremely rare means of extermination by the female gender.
That's a huge part of it, Steve. Someone whom has a mental/psychological problem can give you the weirdest of thoughts in a perfectly concise way which they totally believe. It can be very difficult to hang on to self under those circumstances.
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But do you accept that she would have to reload the weapon and as Jane says beat her father to it? https://youtu.be/xG1TPk6cvPc
Boyce showed how lightweight and easy the weapon was to use and load. During the confrontation with her parents, they received gunshot wounds while Sheila did not.
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Boyce showed how lightweight and easy the weapon was to use and load. During the confrontation with her parents, they received gunshot wounds while Sheila did not.
"Lightweight and easy................to use and load" is entirely relative, Roch. I expect, that to a gun handler, such was the case. However, Sheila wasn't a gun handler. It's perfectly understandable that Sheila wouldn't have sustained any injuries. Jeremy had organized it to look as if Sheila had carried out the murders before turning the gun on herself.
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"Lightweight and easy................to use and load" is entirely relative, Roch. I expect, that to a gun handler, such was the case. However, Sheila wasn't a gun handler. It's perfectly understandable that Sheila wouldn't have sustained any injuries. Jeremy had organized it to look as if Sheila had carried out the murders before turning the gun on herself.
How did Jeremy know she wouldn't of attacked him? Got in the way? Thrown herself over her boys? If this is the case she would of needed to be shot first so not to attack him? Or she would of had defence wounds that would of proved she wasnr the killer, Jeremy didn't know how she'd react, it's a massive risk to take.
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Roch, what one piece or pieces of evidence make you think Sheila? I personally think it was her to, I can't see her laying down to be shot in the neck totally compliant.
Is that you're basis for believing Sheila comnitted the massacre ?That a fit young man holding a rifle couldn't move her a few feet & shoot her.
Sheila was asleep & on Haloperidol. So wouldn't of had a clue what was happening.
You can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre. You've just said Nevill phoned Bamber & the police 16 minutes later after he was shot 4 times. Which was impossible as he couldn't speak. Sheila couldn't brutally beat Nevill. He was 15 stone & 6.4.
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From post 171 onwards - the title of this thread changes. How has that happened?
I have changed it back.
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How did Jeremy know she wouldn't of attacked him? Got in the way? Thrown herself over her boys? If this is the case she would of needed to be shot first so not to attack him? Or she would of had defence wounds that would of proved she wasnr the killer, Jeremy didn't know how she'd react, it's a massive risk to take.
Lucy, we all take massive risks on a daily basis -someone driving a car could have a heart attack and drive their car into us on the pavement. We could slip whist carrying a knife, cut an artery and bleed to death- it's part of life. Of course there were things he wouldn't 'know' but the difference here is that there doesn't appear to have been anything he didn't believe he could handle.
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How did Jeremy know she wouldn't of attacked him? Got in the way? Thrown herself over her boys? If this is the case she would of needed to be shot first so not to attack him? Or she would of had defence wounds that would of proved she wasnr the killer, Jeremy didn't know how she'd react, it's a massive risk to take.
I asked the same thing several months ago. How did he know that she would not have become a wildcat in defence of her children (not forgetting the other two adults needing to be also dealt with). It's proposterous. One injury received by Jeremy and the game is up.
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Is that you're basis for believing Sheila comnitted the massacre ?That a fit young man holding a rifle couldn't move her a few feet & shoot her.
Sheila was asleep & on Haloperidol. So wouldn't of had a clue what was happening.
You can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre. You've just said Nevill phoned Bamber & the police 16 minutes later after he was shot 4 times. Which was impossible as he couldn't speak. Sheila couldn't brutally beat Nevill. He was 15 stone & 6.4.
When did I say that? And you think it's impossible for a man already incapacitated to be beaten with a rifle? Really?
Stop putting words in my mouth Adam your getting right on my nerves.
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Sorry Roch., but I can't support that Nevill would have left Sheila with a gun pointed at her mother, and she could only have shot one person at a time. If she'd shot him first and he'd managed to get past her to go downstairs, wounded, he could just as easily hurled himself at her.
Jane I can assure you that if a armed person was trying to kill you, you would run like the clappers.
I know and I did.
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Jane I can assure you that if a armed person was trying to kill you, you would run like the clappers.
I know and I did
It's a case of fight or flight it's human nature, a loaded gun being pointed at you you would try to get away as fast as possible I'm sure
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Jane I can assure you that if a armed person was trying to kill you, you would run like the clappers.
I know and I did.
You're speaking of yourself. With Nevill's background, he'd have hardly been likely to do the same, leaving his wife and family to the mercy of the shooter.
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Sheila was neither physically ill nor incapable. Her mental state was a different kettle of fish. This I know only too well,sadly.
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You're speaking of yourself. With Nevill's background, he'd have hardly been likely to do the same, leaving his wife and family to the mercy of the shooter.
Jane you have NEVER been in that position so you cannot possibly know.
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Jane you have NEVER been in that position so you cannot possibly know.
Oh, I'd have run -I think- unless I'd been paralyzed with fear, that is. In can't believe Nevill would have A) run B) stayed and done nothing.
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I asked the same thing several months ago. How did he know that she would not have become a wildcat in defence of her children (not forgetting the other two adults needing to be also dealt with). It's proposterous. One injury received by Jeremy and the game is up.
He didn't, how did he know she wouldn't of picked up another one of the many guns in the house? Call the police? Incapacitate him? Wound him somehow? How did he know they'd all be asleep? He apparently knew there had been a heated discussion that night so casually pops round breaks in through a window when he may have been greeted with any one of them? How would he explain that away?
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He didn't, how did he know she wouldn't of picked up another one of the many guns in the house? Call the police? Incapacitate him? Wound him somehow? How did he know they'd all be asleep? He apparently knew there had been a heated discussion that night so casually pops round breaks in through a window when he may have been greeted with any one of them? How would he explain that away?
Sheila call the police or fire a gun while Bamber is trying to commit a 2am massacre ?
Bamber had a strategy which I've just briefly put on another thread. It all seems straight forward to me.
He will be aware of unlikely difficulties but was prepared to take the small risks for the huge rewards.
The only difficulty he ended up facing was Nevill waking seconds before fatal shots.
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He didn't, how did he know she wouldn't of picked up another one of the many guns in the house? Call the police? Incapacitate him? Wound him somehow? How did he know they'd all be asleep? He apparently knew there had been a heated discussion that night so casually pops round breaks in through a window when he may have been greeted with any one of them? How would he explain that away?
I imagine he was VERY certain that she didn't know how to handle guns...............and if she had been, he have assumed that they weren't loaded. As I've said, this is, mostly, about OUR concerns. Jeremy WOULD have believed that everything necessary was in place. Those things which are of concern to us probably never entered his head.
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Sheila call the police or fire a gun while Bamber is trying to commit a 2am massacre ?
Bamber had a stategy which I've just briefly put on another thread. It all seems straight forward to me.
He will be aware of unlikely difficulties but was prepared to take the small risks for the huge rewards.
Yes Adam we all know how I comrehensible this is, lord knows how poor Sheila managed to get out of bed and into her parents room with the amount of bloody haloperidol she was tAking
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Yes Adam we all know how I comrehensible this is, lord knows how poor Sheila managed to get out of bed and into her parents room with the amount of bloody haloperidol she was tAking
I'm sure Bamber helped.
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Yes Adam we all know how I comrehensible this is, lord knows how poor Sheila managed to get out of bed and into her parents room with the amount of bloody haloperidol she was tAking
Hi Lucy I thought Sheila had had her dose reduced. JB was taking a great risk carrying out the murders and trying to stage the scene that Sheila had done it.
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Yes Adam we all know how I comrehensible this is, lord knows how poor Sheila managed to get out of bed and into her parents room with the amount of bloody haloperidol she was tAking
Lucy, whilst I'm certain she couldn't have run a marathon, I'm equally certain she managed to get out of bed unaided.
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Quite. I realised this long ago! I suspect you did too Susan.
Spot on
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B- U - L - L - S - H - I - T Alert!
If the two shots had been suspicious - they would have been suspicious for every copper who walked in to that farmhouse from Harris downwards and viewed Sheila's body - FROM THE VERY OFF. The two shots miraculously only came suspicious much later. They would have been suspicious with immediate effect. The police don't make assumptions and we are talking about tonnes of coppers from divisional commanders and experienced CID to experienced firearms and keen bobbies looking to make a mark. Oh.. and I forgot - also SOC & photography - who's very role is to specifically study and record the scene.
Well at least you respond to bullshit
I just skip over it
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Maybe you should just chill out and get over it.
I'm sure lots of people find particular members irritating. Adam being annoying is I agree somewhat perpetual.
Surely it's busy over at Osea shouldn't you be there
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Lucy, whilst I'm certain she couldn't have run a marathon, I'm equally certain she managed to get out of bed unaided.
Adam is of the view she was not capable, i was being sarcastic.
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Adam is of the view she was not capable, i was being sarcastic.
OK 8) :)
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Hi Lucy I thought Sheila had had her dose reduced. JB was taking a great risk carrying out the murders and trying to stage the scene that Sheila had done it.
I know Susan, I was being sarcastic because Adam is of the view Sheila could barely toilet herself I imagine
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OK 8) :)
That was my inner teen right there stomping her feet lol
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I know Susan, I was being sarcastic because Adam is of the view Sheila could barely toilet herself I imagine
Hahaha sorry Lucy I picked you up wrong :)
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Surely it's busy over at Osea shouldn't you be there
Hey, how did you know where I was, are you stalking me? :o
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That was my inner teen right there stomping her feet lol
Glad to know she's still there, Lucy ;D
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Hey, how did you know where I was, are you stalking me? :o
Ha Ha, she's in the next caravan?
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Sheila and Jeremy weren't that close to the relatives, there was quite an age gap and the relatives weren't fully informed of Sheila's illness. Jeremy could and did say what he liked - all the close family were dead so couldn't argue. Like any criminal, he thought he was cleverer - he wasn't.
That's where I have a problem , they hadn't got a clue about jeremy or shiela, they made big assumptions on a minute bit of information they did have about her. I don't believe for a minute that they really knew how shiela illness was affecting her and neither did many others.
I think we've created the scene where shiela was unable to do anything and didn't have any coordination from the family who really did not know what it was doing to her and feel guilters have just decided this is tge truth and that shiela wasn't capable. !Ithink it is really iimportant for all her medical records to be released so we can see if it is in fact true or not.
I do find It odd that guilters will not consider that her illness could have been the reason she did it and that it was completely possible that she was more than capable .
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Jane I can assure you that if a armed person was trying to kill you, you would run like the clappers.
I know and I did.
I can agree with that Buddy, but you were probably faced with a different enemy and weapon and not in your own domain?
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Ha Ha, she's in the next caravan?
;D
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Roch the more I read the forum I have started to ask myself was Jeremy clever enough to plan and carry out the murders. One would think if he was guilty he would have behaved quite differently.
I totally agree susan, I don't think he was that unhinged for use of a better word. He was a bit if a player and thought he was a bit special. But I don't see anything in any of the evidence we have available that would convince me that he hated his parents and family so much that he would slaughter them all and then behave as he did.
A lot is made of his behaviour after the event, ie he got the police to burn everything, not true, they instigated that. Over reaction at the funeral, you know what it's one if those isn't it. My 24 year old son would have been devastated one minute and drowning his sorrows tge next.
It's like everyone has something to say when something like this happens and everything's exaggerated. Your mind starts to question itself, like we'll he did go away and he smiled in the funeral car and he smiled in the police van. Well what reaction is normal. Normal to one person isnt normal to another. The media didn't help either and so it went on.
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Neither does the notion of a medicated Sheila carry out the murders.
sorry I'm only just catching up on this thread and I realise I'm way behind. I'm not convinced at all that an over medicated shiela wasn't capable of this in fact I think if you look at her illness as a whole she was more than capable.
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Because he got wind of the remark she made to June and Barbara Wilson round the breakfast table: "All people are bad and should be killed.". It was manna from heaven for Jeremy who had feigned interest in the Farm for his own evil purposes, but this interest only brought forth the offer from Nevill of farming Little Rentners Farm, done for the best of intentions but would just have entrapped his son in a lifestyle he had not chosen and felt no empathy for. Sheila had had a similar offer from June of managing an antiques shop in the locality, but again these were the parents' ideas of what would be suitable for their children and not the aspirations of individuals who had been spoiled, who didn't understand the value of money and through Nevill's long hours and June's illness never bonded fully with their parents.
or it could be that she really believed that. !
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Hey, how did you know where I was, are you stalking me? :o
No I go there all the time. My friend has a caravan there
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No I go there all the time. My friend has a caravan there
I went there once about six years ago, so it must have been someone else you spotted. :-\
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No I go there all the time. My friend has a caravan there
Remember us to Anne
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That's where I have a problem , they hadn't got a clue about jeremy or shiela, they made big assumptions on a minute bit of information they did have about her. I don't believe for a minute that they really knew how shiela illness was affecting her and neither did many others.
I think we've created the scene where shiela was unable to do anything and didn't have any coordination from the family who really did not know what it was doing to her and feel guilters have just decided this is tge truth and that shiela wasn't capable. !Ithink it is really iimportant for all her medical records to be released so we can see if it is in fact true or not.
I do find It odd that guilters will not consider that her illness could have been the reason she did it and that it was completely possible that she was more than capable .
But you don't need to take the relatives' word for it. There was Michael Horsnell, Barry Parker and Barbara Wilson, who saw how she walked before she left for her holiday.
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Remember us to Anne
Nothing wrong in " pretending " to be her friend,justice ;)
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Firstly, if Sheila was 'so easy to control' and this 'benefited Bamber' - how was he unable to correctly shoot her on the first occasion? The most crucial shot he had to make that night - and he couldn't even control her properly or aim it properly. He also knowingly risked having to shoot her more than once -because he knowingly used a low calibre weapon intended for killing vermin.
What rubbish.
At the risk of getting my head bitten off (although I'm kind of used it it), he couldn't have used a shot gun because it required loading too often and he risked being over powered. You don't know that the two shots to Sheila happened because he couldn't over power her. He may have thought the first shot was enough to kill her but them realised she wasn't dead (for whatever reason) and ha to make the decision whether or not to risk leaving her to die from the first wound or shoot her again. We know what he decided.
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Fuck off you police informant worm. Report me to the moderators for saying that there's a bullshit alert relating to what we are expected to believe from police and prosecution?
I've wanted to say those words many times roch
This has tickled me
He's absolutely infuriating. Using sarcasm in ever single one of his
Posts as if we are blooming stupid then reports us for responding. Madness
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I've wanted to say those words many times roch
This has tickled me
He's absolutely infuriating. Using sarcasm in ever single one of his
Posts as if we are blooming stupid then reports us for responding. Madness
Notsure, if he gets to you that badly, put him on ignore. You certainly won't be alone.
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I've wanted to say those words many times roch
This has tickled me
He's absolutely infuriating. Using sarcasm in ever single one of his
Posts as if we are blooming stupid then reports us for responding. Madness
I think he's a " nark ". Take no notice.
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At the risk of getting my head bitten off (although I'm kind of used it it), he couldn't have used a shot gun because it required loading too often and he risked being over powered. You don't know that the two shots to Sheila happened because he couldn't over power her. He may have thought the first shot was enough to kill her but them realised she wasn't dead (for whatever reason) and ha to make the decision whether or not to risk leaving her to die from the first wound or shoot her again. We know what he decided.
I did ask Roch, three times what other rifle/gun Bamber could have used. I got no response.
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Bamber had to use the rifle for shooting vermin as the murder weapon. Otherwise he couldn't claim he went out to shoot rabbits.
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Bamber had to use the rifle for shooting vermin as the murder weapon. Otherwise he couldn't claim he went out to shoot rabbits.
Good point, it had to leave it loaded for Sheila to errrr find.
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The rifle was also the best weapon as there was a possibility of completing the massacre without having to reload. Although that didn't happen & guilters take joy in disputing that Sheila could chamber, breach & reload. Twice.
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The rifle was also the best weapon as there was a possibility of completing the massacre without having to reload. Although that didn't happen & guilters take joy in disputing that Sheila could chamber, breach & reload. Twice.
They never answer these points Adam. It was all accomplished as if by magic..
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I think he's a " nark ". Take no notice.
He is, you can tell by the "one up" all the time.
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He is, you can tell by the "one up" all the time.
And the continual threats to report at the drop of a hat.
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Remember us to Anne
I do lots of digging when I'm there it's really interesting talking to people that have had caravans for years
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[quote ;)author=lookout link=topic=8280.msg393962#msg393962 date=1492278159]
;)
Nothing wrong in " pretending " to be her friend,justice ;)
[/quote] :)
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I've wanted to say those words many times roch
This has tickled me
He's absolutely infuriating. Using sarcasm in ever single one of his
Posts as if we are blooming stupid then reports us for responding. Madness
Not sure please don't tell me you read his posts
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They never answer these points Adam. It was all accomplished as if by magic..
I don't mind Roch saying Bamber would not have used a low calibre weapon, even though it would mean the rabbit story could not be introduced.
However, obviously I then expected Roch to say what was a better rifle/gun for Bamber. Espescially after I asked him three times.
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Not sure please don't tell me you read his posts
Haha I can't help it, it's weird isn't it. I normally skip
Past his posts as I know they will be full of sarcasm. Sometimes I just can't help myself
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Haha I can't help it, it's weird isn't it. I normally skip
Past his posts as I know they will be full of sarcasm. Sometimes I just can't help myself
Isn't that called masochism?
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I do lots of digging when I'm there it's really interesting talking to people that have had caravans for years
I think that's what I miss more than anything, nice place nice area, nice people. Peldon Rose, Company Shed, Five Lakes and Bonners Barn for me fruit and Veg. Beaches are not that great, not a patch on Northumberland and Cornwall.
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I think that's what I miss more than anything, nice place nice area, nice people. Peldon Rose, Company Shed, Five Lakes and Bonners Barn for me fruit and Veg. Beaches are not that great, not a patch on Northumberland and Cornwall.
Hi justice how ya doing? do you still have your caravan for your jaunts :)
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Haha I can't help it, it's weird isn't it. I normally skip
Past his posts as I know they will be full of sarcasm. Sometimes I just can't help myself
Lol x
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Hahaha I,m addicted and always getting row hehehe X
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I think that's what I miss more than anything, nice place nice area, nice people. Peldon Rose, Company Shed, Five Lakes and Bonners Barn for me fruit and Veg. Beaches are not that great, not a patch on Northumberland and Cornwall.
We went to the peldon rose last Sunday, lovely
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Isn't that called masochism?
I don't know is it? 😅😅😅
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We went to the peldon rose last Sunday, lovely
Had you been to Mersea Lucy?
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Had you been to Mersea Lucy?
Yes justice. I grew up in Maldon, stables my horse at darcy and goldhanger at wagers for a time, my parents still live there, I'm here right now actually, we always take our boys crabbing at mersea.
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Yes justice. I grew up in Maldon, stables my horse at darcy and goldhanger at wagers for a time, my parents still live there, I'm here right now actually, we always take our boys crabbing at mersea.
We will have to chat sometime, my daughter has justed texted she is at my favourite Chinese in Colly, Chef Canton. I had friends who were lifeguards at your local swimming baths, there was an incident there once that put me off being a lifeguard ever again.
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We will have to chat sometime, my daughter has justed texted she is at my favourite Chinese in Colly, Chef Canton. I had friends who were lifeguards at your local swimming baths, there was an incident there once that put me off being a lifeguard ever again.
Yes do, my dad lived in Colchester for a while, he was group news editor of the papers at the time, although he lived in Maldon at the time, chef canton is lovely :)
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Bamber had to use the rifle for shooting vermin as the murder weapon. Otherwise he couldn't claim he went out to shoot rabbits.
Adam why did Jeremy have to talk about a loaded rifle at all he could have just left it for Sheila to find but I would have thought with young children in the house Nevill may have put the rifle away.
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Adam why did Jeremy have to talk about a loaded rifle at all he could have just left it for Sheila to find but I would have thought with young children in the house Nevill may have put the rifle away.
Exactly, why would he leave a loaded rifle in reach of 2 young boys?
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Exactly, why would he leave a loaded rifle in reach of 2 young boys?
I don't think he did Lucy, it was all part of his pre planning, I don't think it was a spontaneous killing but pre planned, things would go wrong along the way, but Bamber new all along wiping his family out he would be a suspect, got to be, the only survivor would be a suspect, what better alibi than to let a third party find the bodies while your outside with the police, so the pre planning was before during and after? Just my take on it Lucy
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Hi justice how ya doing? do you still have your caravan for your jaunts :)
Hi Susan, should have been at Bolton Abbey this weekend, but had to put it off.
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There are some who are still saying that the rifle was left on the table------even Jeremy himself said that in his statement,so I'd be asking who moved it after Jeremy had left for home ?
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Hi Susan, should have been at Bolton Abbey this weekend, but had to put it off.
Hi justice that is a shame I just love Bolton Abbey it has something special :)
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There are some who are still saying that the rifle was left on the table------even Jeremy himself said that in his statement,so I'd be asking who moved it after Jeremy had left for home ?
lookout I would think Nevill would have removed it to a safe place in view of the twins staying.
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lookout I would think Nevill would have removed it to a safe place in view of the twins staying.
How would he know where it was then? Could he risk breaking in, crispy waking up and barking alerting Neville, whilst rummaging around in the dark looking for a weapon,
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How would he know where it was then? Could he risk breaking in, crispy waking up and barking alerting Neville, whilst rummaging around in the dark looking for a weapon,
Lucy that is an excellent point I had never thought of that before but if Nevill had removed the rifle Jeremy risked being discovered before he was armed another reason maybe why it was Sheila she was in the house Crispy would not have barked if she was moving around.
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lookout I would think Nevill would have removed it to a safe place in view of the twins staying.
This is the part that we can't get round because he may,or may not have had the chance to have put it into the cupboard before it was possibly taken from him.
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This is the part that we can't get round because he may,or may not have had the chance to have put it into the cupboard before it was possibly taken from him.
lookout maybe he just moved it to a safer place not the gun cupboard but somewhere visible but out of reach of the twins.
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Lucy that is an excellent point I had never thought of that before but if Nevill had removed the rifle Jeremy risked being discovered before he was armed another reason maybe why it was Sheila she was in the house Crispy would not have barked if she was moving around.
Neville could of come down armed if he thought there was an intruder broken in, he could of shot Jeremy before Jeremy had even armed himself!!!
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Why would he risk breaking in unarmed waking crispy up eating Neville to an intruder, then rummaging round for a gun in the dark with a dog yapping at his feet? Neville would of been downstairs like a shot and possibly could of found the rifle before Jeremy, if Neville moved it, he knew where it was, Jeremy didn't.
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Neville could of come down armed if he thought there was an intruder broken in, he could of shot Jeremy before Jeremy had even armed himself!!!
Quite easily. I think Neville was on his guard anyway.
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Quite easily. I think Neville was on his guard anyway.
We keep a coshh under our bed, any noise and my husbands downstairs with it in seconds, normally a cat lol
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Quite easily. I think Neville was on his guard anyway.
But not on his guard with Sheila? The whole rabbit story is a red herring he could have left the gun hid and loaded anywhere, he could have told Neville he was taking the gun to shoot rabbits and hid it somewhere?
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We keep a coshh under our bed, any noise and my husbands downstairs with it in seconds, normally a cat lol
It shouldn't be like that though,should it ? :(
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We keep a coshh under our bed, any noise and my husbands downstairs with it in seconds, normally a cat lol
Do you live in an isolated area in an easily accessed house, Lucy.
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It shouldn't be like that though,should it ? :(
lookout that is awful for poor Lucy I would be a nervous wreck lots to be said living up here in the Highlands :)
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It shouldn't be like that though,should it ? :(
Probably not but with 4 babies in the house you can't be to careful, I'd have to be dead to let anyone near them
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Just on a side note, anyone who likes Real Crime, go to Podcast and Real Crime Profile, listen to Jim Clemente ex FBI and Laura Richards, great listening Criminal Profile analysis. Headphones on and listen away FREE
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How would he know where it was then? Could he risk breaking in, crispy waking up and barking alerting Neville, whilst rummaging around in the dark looking for a weapon,
As there's no one to verify it, we have no way of knowing WHAT he did with the rifle. He HAD to say he left it where Sheila could get it in order for Sheila to have got hold of it in the story he told. All that was really necessary was for it to be somewhere HE could locate it.
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Probably not but with 4 babies in the house you can't be to careful, I'd have to be dead to let anyone near them
Lucy quite right Mothers are naturally protective to their babies even in the animal world cats/dogs etc protect their young with their life (where is the Father I ask off making more baby kittens and puppies hahaha) Bet you are a lovely Mum X
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Probably not but with 4 babies in the house you can't be to careful, I'd have to be dead to let anyone near them
I'll say. You'd guard them with our life.
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But not on his guard with Sheila? The whole rabbit story is a red herring he could have left the gun hid and loaded anywhere, he could have told Neville he was taking the gun to shoot rabbits and hid it somewhere?
Quite a few red-herrings-------that actually made up a case.
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lookout that is awful for poor Lucy I would be a nervous wreck lots to be said living up here in the Highlands :)
Yes,of course Susan. I have a direct alarm which is well worth the money for staying safe. The Highlands are beautiful. I don't think there's a nicer place. Even in Australia they have the Highlands and only for Kangaroo Valley,you'd think you were in Scotland.
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Lucy quite right Mothers are naturally protective to their babies even in the animal world cats/dogs etc protect their young with their life (where is the Father I ask off making more baby kittens and puppies hahaha) Bet you are a lovely Mum X
Lucy quite right Mothers are naturally protective to their babies even in the animal world cats/dogs etc protect their young with their life (where is the Father I ask off making more baby kittens and puppies hahaha) Bet you are a lovely Mum X
He's as protective over the boys as me, although not as anxious as I am, we live in a nice area but we have side doors and back doors and front doors , it stems from when we lived in our old house I was siting in the living room breastfeeding the baby and there were 2 men in our garden looking through our back doors, I called 999 and am there had been. A burglary that morning 2 doors down and the man had woke to find them upstairs in his house. Paul had just gone to work so they must of been watching, they get in by surprise me a tool that turns your key in the lock from the outside, I've never been so scared.
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Do you live in an isolated area in an easily accessed house, Lucy.
Easily accessible jane but not isolated, we have 4 doors down stairs x
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I'll say. You'd guard them with our life.
This is what concerns me with Sheila, why was she not in their room? No defence wounds and willingly shot?
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He's as protective over the boys as me, although not as anxious as I am, we live in a nice area but we have side doors and back doors and front doors , it stems from when we lived in our old house I was siting in the living room breastfeeding the baby and there were 2 men in our garden looking through our back doors, I called 999 and am there had been. A burglary that morning 2 doors down and the man had woke to find them upstairs in his house. Paul had just gone to work so they must of been watching, they get in by surprise me a tool that turns your key in the lock from the outside, I've never been so scared.
Thats awful Lucy no wonder he has a cosh.
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He's as protective over the boys as me, although not as anxious as I am, we live in a nice area but we have side doors and back doors and front doors , it stems from when we lived in our old house I was siting in the living room breastfeeding the baby and there were 2 men in our garden looking through our back doors, I called 999 and am there had been. A burglary that morning 2 doors down and the man had woke to find them upstairs in his house. Paul had just gone to work so they must of been watching, they get in by surprise me a tool that turns your key in the lock from the outside, I've never been so scared.
Oh,get a panic alarm. It's not on having to live your life being scared like that,it's awful.
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This is what concerns me with Sheila, why was she not in their room? No defence wounds and willingly shot?
It may be that it wasn't the senior Bambers' policy to have children and adults sleeping in the same room, in which case I imagine Sheila would have followed their rules.
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It may be that it wasn't the senior Bambers' policy to have children and adults sleeping in the same room, in which case I imagine Sheila would have followed their rules.
Would she not of ran to them on waking? They had deprecate rooms though. X
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Oh,get a panic alarm. It's not on having to live your life being scared like that,it's awful.
We live in a little village now and crime is low, but I'm extra cautious now, luckily all our neighbours all look out for each other, it's just my worst fear, our room is at the back so anyone coming up would get to the children first.
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Thats awful Lucy no wonder he has a cosh.
Certainly s**t me up justice lol x
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Would she not of ran to them on waking? They had deprecate rooms though. X
Ran? Hmm? Haloperidol effects? I can't imagine that she wouldn't have tried to get to them, though. Not certain what are "deprecate" rooms?
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Ran? Hmm? Haloperidol effects? I can't imagine that she wouldn't have tried to get to them, though. Not certain what are "deprecate" rooms?
Sorry Jane my screen has cracked on my phone and it's started doing random things, the touch screen needs replacing, I meant separate,
Where was Sheila's room in relation to the tWins?
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We live in a little village now and crime is low, but I'm extra cautious now, luckily all our neighbours all look out for each other, it's just my worst fear, our room is at the back so anyone coming up would get to the children first.
Its not Jaywick is it Lucy? When you said crime was low. Ha Ha only joking, when me and the wife went to live down that area we went to look at house in Jaywick, obviously we didn't know the area, we had looked at property in Lexden, Ipswich road and someone told us about this property in Jaywick, I couldn't get away fast enough. Did you ever go in Silk Road Lucy?
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Sorry Jane my screen has cracked on my phone and it's started doing random things, the touch screen needs replacing, I meant separate,
Where was Sheila's room in relation to the tWins?
Not sure, Lucy. There are diagrams here but one has to be more adept, than I, to read them. I have a feeling that they MAY have been positioned somewhere between their mother and their grandparents.
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Not sure, Lucy. There are diagrams here but one has to be more adept, than I, to read them. I have a feeling that they MAY have been positioned somewhere between their mother and their grandparents.
Diagrams are in here Jane and Lucy.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html
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Its not Jaywick is it Lucy? When you said crime was low. Ha Ha only joking, when me and the wife went to live down that area we went to look at house in Jaywick, obviously we didn't know the area, we had looked at property in Lexden, Ipswich road and someone told us about this property in Jaywick, I couldn't get away fast enough. Did you ever go in Silk Road Lucy?
Definitely not jaywick lol! Lexden is a nice area, yes I did go there a lot, haven't been for a few years though.
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Definitely not jaywick lol! Lexden is a nice area, yes I did go there a lot, haven't been for a few years though.
I had a friend who worked in there, all the diagrams are in here Lucy.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html
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Diagrams are in here Jane and Lucy.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html
Thanks Justice. Will take a closer look in the morning!!!
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Thanks Justice. Will take a closer look in the morning!!!
Ok Jane x Remember when someone is a bore, put them on ignore lol
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Ok Jane x Remember when someone is a bore, put them on ignore lol
Have done exactly that, Justice x
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I had a friend who worked in there, all the diagrams are in here Lucy.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html
From what I can make out. Sheila and June's rooms are opposite each other the twins in the middle so whoever came up the stairs would get to them first?.
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I had a friend who worked in there, all the diagrams are in here Lucy.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html
From what I can make out. Sheila and June's rooms are opposite each other the twins in the middle so whoever came up the stairs would get to them first?.
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From what I can make out. Sheila and June's rooms are opposite each other the twins in the middle so whoever came up the stairs would get to them first?.
I thought Sheila and the twins' room were at opposite ends of the corridor with the master bedroom in between, though having a connecting door through to the twins' room, but I may be wrong.
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From what I can make out. Sheila and June's rooms are opposite each other the twins in the middle so whoever came up the stairs would get to them first?.
You have to remember Lucy there is more than one staircase.
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I thought Sheila and the twins' room were at opposite ends of the corridor with the master bedroom in between, though having a connecting door through to the twins' room, but I may be wrong.
It. Looks like the main bedroom and Sheila's room were connected by a room or corridor, with the twins one at the other end?
One staircase was blocked wasn't it? Who would the shooter come to first if they were all in bed?
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Why would he risk breaking in unarmed waking crispy up eating Neville to an intruder, then rummaging round for a gun in the dark with a dog yapping at his feet? Neville would of been downstairs like a shot and possibly could of found the rifle before Jeremy, if Neville moved it, he knew where it was, Jeremy didn't.
The bathroom window was loose or already ajar.
Crispy was not guard dog. Asleep & maybe locked in another rooom. Thread created.
Nevill was in bed asleep. It was 2am.
Bamber knew WHF & knew where the rifle was.
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It's alright posters trying to think up potential minor obstacles for Bamber. Providing they can then provide a Sheila scenario. But a lot of supporters refuse to budge & create one.
Bamber completing the massacre was 10x easier than for Sheila.
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He didn't, how did he know she wouldn't of picked up another one of the many guns in the house? Call the police? Incapacitate him? Wound him somehow? How did he know they'd all be asleep? He apparently knew there had been a heated discussion that night so casually pops round breaks in through a window when he may have been greeted with any one of them? How would he explain that away?
An then locks the window while still inside the farmhouse, before somehow exiting from it.
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That's where I have a problem , they hadn't got a clue about Jeremy or sheila, they made big assumptions on a minute bit of information they did have about her. I don't believe for a minute that they really knew how Sheila's illness was affecting her and neither did many others.
I think we've created the scene where sheila was unable to do anything and didn't have any coordination from the family who really did not know what it was doing to her and feel guilters have just decided this is the truth and that sheila wasn't capable. I think it is really important for all her medical records to be released so we can see if it is in fact true or not.
I do find It odd that guilters will not consider that her illness could have been the reason she did it and that it was completely possible that she was more than capable .
Great post.
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An then locks the window while still inside the farmhouse, before somehow exiting from it.
The kitchen window could be banged shut from outside. Twenty sources supplied.
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The kitchen window could be banged shut from outside. Twenty sources supplied.
I think you need to carefully watch this video. The window could not be secured from the outside. Read and listen to what the police stated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65t__yHjAjk
I wish to God you were banned from this forum.
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I think you need to carefully watch this video. The window could not be secured from the outside. Read and listen to what the police stated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65t__yHjAjk
I wish to God you were banned from this forum.
I have reported you to the moderators again.
Showing a CT video means nothing. Twenty independent sources said the kitchen window could be banged shut from outside. It was part of the prosecution case.
Keep up.
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I have reported you to the moderators again.
Showing a CT video means nothing. Twenty independent sources said the kitchen window could be banged shut from outside. It was part of the prosecution case.
Keep up.
I am requesting to forum administrator and moderator that you be banned from the forum on the grounds that you are a well known pest and troll.
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I think you need to carefully watch this video. The window could not be secured from the outside. Read and listen to what the police stated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65t__yHjAjk
I wish to God you were banned from this forum.
Roch, I sincerely hope that wish doesn't include me and I hope that if you have a problem with me we can discuss it.
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I think you need to carefully watch this video. The window could not be secured from the outside. Read and listen to what the police stated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65t__yHjAjk
I wish to God you were banned from this forum.
Hi Roch
thanks for posting that link about the windows I have never seen it before and leaves me again in doubt about Jeremy's conviction :(
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Roch, I sincerely hope that wish doesn't include me and I hope that if you have a problem with me we can discuss it.
No it does not include you Jane.
I'm not trying to rule over people's opinions here. But this member has a horrendous record of being a troll. He does not serve any purpose here either way. Hartley is / has been a formidable and effective guilty poster on this forum - but I would never in a million years request him to be banned - because unlike Adam - he is not and never has been a troll. People with a guilty opinion should be allowed to post on this forum as much as people with an innocent or undecided opinion. But Adam's tactics are deliberate disruption. Sorry Adam - but this forum would be miles better without you and without anybody else taking up your mantle.
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Hi Roch
thanks for posting that link about the windows I have never seen it before and leaves me again in doubt about Jeremy's conviction :(
It's a CT video. For the gullible.
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It's a CT video. For the gullible.
On what grounds in this video in particluar - is the information held within - for the gullible?
Back up your claims
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No it does not include you Jane.
I'm not trying to rule over people's opinions here. But this member has a horrendous record of being a troll. He does not serve any purpose here either way. Hartley is / has been a formidable and effective guilty poster on this forum - but I would never in a million years request him to be banned - because unlike Adam - he is not and never has been a troll. People with a guilty opinion should be allowed to post on this forum as much as people with an innocent or undecided opinion. But Adam's tactics are deliberate disruption. Sorry Adam - but this forum would be miles better without you and without anybody else taking up your mantle.
I have reported you to the moderators again.
It's very easy to beat you in a debate.
You say Sheila 'definately committed the massacre'. Then say 'you can't explain Nevill's phone calls'.
You say 'Ainsley 100% concealed evidence' then say you 'don't know what motivated him'.
You say Bamber 'chose the wrong weapon', then give no alternative weapon. Despite three requests.
You know this, which is why you are focusing on me. Only you know why you still support Bamber. But if you do, I'll just keep beating you in debates.
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I have reported you to the moderators again.
It's very easy to beat you in a debate.
You say Sheila 'definately committed the massacre'. Then say 'you can't explain Nevill's phone calls'.
You say 'Ainsley concealed evidence' then say you 'don't know what motivated him'.
You say Bamber 'chose the wrong weapon', then give no alternative weapon. Despite three requests.
You know this, which is why you are focusing on me. Only you know why you still support Bamber. But if you do, I'll just keep beating you in debates.
I think you would be more at home on the red forum. Your efforts will be appreciated there.
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It's a CT video. For the gullible.
Adam sorry I don't agree with the statement you have just made Roch could never be described as gullible me yes but not Roch.
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Adam sorry I don't agree with the statement you have just made Roch could never be described as gullible me yes but not Roch.
The kitchen window could be banged shut from outside. You know this.
Jan asked me for 10 (yes 10) independent sources once. I supplied them that afternoon. However more independent sources have since been found.
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That's where I have a problem , they hadn't got a clue about jeremy or shiela, they made big assumptions on a minute bit of information they did have about her. I don't believe for a minute that they really knew how shiela illness was affecting her and neither did many others.
I think we've created the scene where shiela was unable to do anything and didn't have any coordination from the family who really did not know what it was doing to her and feel guilters have just decided this is tge truth and that shiela wasn't capable. !Ithink it is really iimportant for all her medical records to be released so we can see if it is in fact true or not.
I do find It odd that guilters will not consider that her illness could have been the reason she did it and that it was completely possible that she was more than capable .
Yes,I think it's important that we see Sheila's medical history----not to pry or gloat but to get a picture/idea of her overall behaviour on her initial admission to the clinic/hospital. Whether her admission had first been a voluntary decision ? Information in this area of mental health would then give an insight into her,what appeared to have been, complex problems.
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Roch's just upset that people are now asking him to justify his bold 'definately'/100% statements.
I said I was 100% certain Sheila was the killer. Not 100% certain that Jeremy had no foreknowledge and/or provided no assistance. A suggested example I gave, for providing such assistance, was concocting a reason to leave out a loaded weapon for her.
I once made the fatal mistake of taking you off ignore. I'll not make that mistake again.
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Great post.
Agreed great post
Every one of Sheila's medical records needs to be released
I see NO reason for that NOT to happen
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Hi Roch
thanks for posting that link about the windows I have never seen it before and leaves me again in doubt about Jeremy's conviction :(
Thank you Susan
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I was having a really good time debating this yesterday, now it's turned into a squabble again, why can't we just debate on the case instead. :-(
Hopefully David will supply his 5th scenario attempt of how Sheila committed the massacre. That will give everyone something to debate.
He's been working on it for 4 months & it's got diagrams.
Or you could always supply a scenario. Just saying Bamber is innocent because he may have found moving Sheila a few feet difficult would only result in a one minute debate by a jury.
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Hopefully David will supply his 5th scenario attempt of how Sheila committed the massacre. That will give everyone something to debate.
He's been working on it for 4 months & it's got diagrams.
Or you could always supply a scenario. Just saying Bamber is innocent because he may have found moving Sheila a few feet difficult would only result in a one minute debate by a jury.
When did I say that Adam!? Why on earth would he have had to move her?
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When did I say that Adam!? Why on earth would he have had to move her?
Because she was in bed. Behind a closed door. Asleep. Sedated & on Haloperidol.
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Which is where she'd shot herself-----------in bed,rifle between her and her mother.
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Because she was in bed. Behind a closed door. Asleep. Sedated & on Haloperidol.
Not true
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Because she was in bed. Behind a closed door. Asleep. Sedated & on Haloperidol.
::)
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::)
Great info, considering Sheila already thought "all people wee bad and needed to be killed" and was suicidal just proves people can and do act on this,
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Not true
Really ? Tell me more.
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::)
What's this got to do with Sheila being -
In bed at 2am.
Asleep at 2am.
Behind a closed door. At 2am.
On Haloperidol. Undisputed.
Under sedation. Undisputed.
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Really ? Tell me more.
Adam are you saying he dragged her out of bed and she didn't even wake during any of this?
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Adam are you saying he dragged her out of bed and she didn't even wake during
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If Sheila had actually nodded off,then wakened,she'd have had the mother of all psychotic attacks after a drug induced sleep. Hallucinations are a FACT after such a slumber,as well as the urge for violent attacks.
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Adam are you saying he dragged her out of bed and she didn't even wake during any of this?
There have been numerous threads on how Bamber would get Sheila a few feet.
But if you believe she woke & walked to where she was shot, that is fine.
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Sheila was also known not to have slept well during the night as she used to phone her father from her own home,at all hours of the morning and it would have been her most vulnerable time after probably spending most of the daytime sleeping. This is the usual pattern of those who take anti-psychotic or similar drugs.
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::)
I wish the Defence would make up its mind whether Sheila was full of Haloperidol or not! As for the windows, here's the relevant extract from Carol Ann Lee's book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zV3WCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=DC+Barlow+windows+white+house+farm&source=bl&ots=jPIUL0C9y-&sig=DTyenuXYCy4DpS47E6uQj4bxumA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7qfDq9qjTAhVTsBQKHaMNDZQQ6AEIOjAH#v=onepage&q=DC%20Barlow%20windows%20white%20house%20farm&f=false
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But not on his guard with Sheila? The whole rabbit story is a red herring he could have left the gun hid and loaded anywhere, he could have told Neville he was taking the gun to shoot rabbits and hid it somewhere?
And of course his story of the could be true. Sheila could have seen the gun on the table
The fact that June told Pam that Sheila had gone to bed may not have been true, after all her bhed had not been slept in.
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And of course his story of the could be true. Sheila could have seen the gun on the table
The fact that June told Pam that Sheila had gone to bed may not have been true, after all her bhed had not been slept in.
How do you know Sheila's bed had not been slept in ?
Why would it not be true that Sheila had gone to bed if June told PB this ?
If Sheila did not go to bed, what was she doing between 10pm - 3am. And why was she found bare footed in a nightdress ?
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How do you know Sheila's bed had not been slept in ?
Why would it not be true that Sheila had gone to bed if June told PB this ?
If Sheila did not go to bed, what was she doing between 10pm - 3am. And why was she found bare footed in a nightdress ?
The photos look like a bed that had not been slept in, Sheila could of gone upstairs rendering June to believe she had retired for the night, we don't know what she was doing, we don't know what time this massacre was committed, it could of been midnight!
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The photos look like a bed that had not been slept in, Sheila could of gone upstairs rendering June to believe she had retired for the night, we don't know what she was doing, we don't know what time this massacre was committed, it could of been midnight!
Well Nevill was awake at 3.10am. As he phoned Bamber. So the massacre was committed afterwards.
So Sheila stayed awake, bare footed & in her nightdress between 10pm - 3.10am. Although under sedation & on Haloperidol.
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Well Nevill was awake at 3.10am. As he phoned Bamber. So the massacre was committed afterwards.
So Sheila stayed awake, bare footed & in her nightdress between 10pm - 3.10am. Although under sedation & on Haloperidol.
Maybe she did, I've sat in my nightwear many times until the early hours reading etc as I couldn't sleep, she was either on sedation OR haleperidol or was she on more than haloperidol?
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Didn't David and Anthony admit in Taff Jones' office that Sheila could have committed the crimes, effectively showing that they were ignorant of her illness after all.
How very convenient that Ann couldn't remember what was discussed, when she relayed this point to COLP.
They can go on telly and corroborate the prosecution's case under Ainsley - but they cant remember the police's case regarding Sheila.
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Maybe she did, I've sat in my nightwear many times until the early hours reading etc as I couldn't sleep, she was either on sedation OR haleperidol or was she on more than haloperidol?
She was prescribed the anti-psychotic drug Stelazine during her initial stay at St. Andrew's in 1983. Upon her readmission in March 1985 she took Anafranil, an anti-depressant, Haloperidol, which I'm assuming is another anti-psychotic drug but stronger than Stelazine (Lookout will correct me here if I err) and Procyclidine to counteract the side-effects such as tremors.
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How very convenient that Ann couldn't remember what was discussed, when she relayed this point to COLP.
They can go on telly and corroborate the prosecution's case under Ainsley - but they cant remember the police's case regarding Sheila.
But Sheila wasn't on trial-Jeremy was. The concomitant of the telephone call lie was that it gave him knowledge of the crimes at a very early stage. Was he dithering so that he had to telephone Julie in the middle of the night or was it confirmation to her that he had executed his evil plan?
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Maybe she did, I've sat in my nightwear many times until the early hours reading etc as I couldn't sleep, she was either on sedation OR haleperidol or was she on more than haloperidol?
Whilst Adam differentiates between being sedated and being on Haloperidol, it's actually the Haloperidol which is the sedative. She stopped taking the (oral) meds which countered the side effects of Haloperidol because with the reduced dosage of it, presumably the side effects weren't as pronounced.
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Whilst Adam differentiates between being sedated and being on Haloperidol, it's actually the Haloperidol which is the sedative. She stopped taking the (oral) meds which countered the side effects of Haloperidol because with the reduced dosage of it, presumably the side effects weren't as pronounced.
That's why I was getting confused thanks jane. So she would of been less lethargic?
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That's why I was getting confused thanks jane. So she would of been less lethargic?
Less lethargic than what? It's relative, Lucy. Remember, she was still over sedated.
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Less lethargic than what? It's relative, Lucy. Remember, she was still over sedated.
To what point though? Because some people describe her as normal, others disturbed, was she that up and down?
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To what point though? Because some people describe her as normal, others disturbed, was she that up and down?
I'm not convinced that she was. Whilst I don't believe she was as wide as 1 and 10 on the spectrum, I think she may have veered between 2.5 and 5, but neither would make her full joie de vivre.
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if she was uncorditnated and lathragic how come she managed to scare the shit out the gas man.
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if she was uncorditnated and lathragic how come she managed to scare the shit out the gas man.
I'm uncertain about the veracity of this story. Do we know when it occurred? Where might the boys have been when this was going on? Do we have a WS from the gentleman in question, or might it be yet another of those stories like the one centred around the Greek Monastery?
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It's a fabrication. The gas man came on the Monday morning and saw a typical domestic scene with the boys playing happily.
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It's a fabrication. The gas man came on the Monday morning and saw a typical domestic scene with the boys playing happily.
Thanks, Steve. Slowly, slowly, the myths become demolished :)
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It's a fabrication. The gas man came on the Monday morning and saw a typical domestic scene with the boys playing happily.
The Greek monastery I find absurd, did the gas man make a statement? How did this come to light?.
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Maybe she did, I've sat in my nightwear many times until the early hours reading etc as I couldn't sleep, she was either on sedation OR haleperidol or was she on more than haloperidol?
So Sheila was reading for 5 hours. On the bed.
Maybe she was reading one of her religious books. Although chose to read June's bible in the dark before killing herself.
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So Sheila was reading for 5 hours. On the bed.
Maybe she was reading one of her religious books. Although chose to read June's bible in the dark before killing herself.
Hahaha Adam you are quite a little comedian :))
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Hahaha Adam you are quite a little comedian :))
Your hilarious Adam!
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It's a fabrication. The gas man came on the Monday morning and saw a typical domestic scene with the boys playing happily.
how did you discover it was a fabrication its never been disputed before.
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It was the electric man who came to read the meter. It's featured in a link called " the Innocent Man ",which was written by David Shaw. He goes into detail of what occurred on that particular occasion. I believe the electric man made a statement,but like everything else,must be under lock and key.
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well lookouts given a source whats your source.
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well lookouts given a source whats your source.
I'm told that David Shaw is an alias for someone here.
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It was the electric man who came to read the meter. It's featured in a link called " the Innocent Man ",which was written by David Shaw. He goes into detail of what occurred on that particular occasion. I believe the electric man made a statement,but like everything else,must be under lock and key.
But not mentioned anywhere else - odd that. ::)
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I'm told that David Shaw is an alias for someone here.
who told you that.
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who told you that.
If I know it, presumably, so, too, do others.
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well lookouts given her source im just waiting for steves.
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The matter regarding the electric meter man is mentioned in the European Convention of Human Rights :
Article 6-Fair Trial,where it states that the right to have witness examined had been denied of Jeremy when the prosecution had used PII ( a gagging order ) preventing statements for the defence,such as that of the visit of the electric meter reader who had witnessed one of Sheila's psychotic attacks hours prior to the murders.
Ewen Smith had taken a witness statement from the employee and had then found out that he'd made a statement to the original investigating officer,only for it not to be disclosed to Jeremy or his legal team and also not listed under PII rules.
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I'm told that David Shaw is an alias for someone here.
who is he an alias for then.
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Is it any wonder that justice will never prevail as long as you have those who are prepared to lie through their teeth,or fabricate ( same thing ) thus denying those who are honest,a just and fair trial,for the sake of pure unadulterated GREED !
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The matter regarding the electric meter man is mentioned in the European Convention of Human Rights :
Article 6-Fair Trial,where it states that the right to have witness examined had been denied of Jeremy when the prosecution had used PII ( a gagging order ) preventing statements for the defence,such as that of the visit of the electric meter reader who had witnessed one of Sheila's psychotic attacks hours prior to the murders.
Ewen Smith had taken a witness statement from the employee and had then found out that he'd made a statement to the original investigating officer,only for it not to be disclosed to Jeremy or his legal team and also not listed under PII rules.
are so 2 sources then.
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are so 2 sources then.
Well, 3 if you count the investigating officer as well as Ewen Smith and David Shaw.
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I was referring to the statement of the gas man, who has been wrongly depicted as giving a defamatory statement about Sheila. I have read about this electricity man but I don't think it's in any of the books, nor can I find the statement in the library here, but am open to persuasion that the incident happened.
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I was referring to the statement of the gas man, who has been wrongly depicted as giving a defamatory statement about Sheila. I have read about this electricity man but I don't think it's in any of the books, nor can I find the statement in the library here, but am open to persuasion that the incident happened.
So it was the gas-man as well ?
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So it was the gas-man as well ?
How about the milkman? The paperboy? The fish seller? The encyclopedia salesman? The Ringtons Tea man? I'm sure they were all their that day! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Opps, I almost forgot the postman! :o
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So it was the gas-man as well ?
Sorry the incident to which I was referring was the visit of Douglas Pike:
On Monday morning, around 10 o' clock, Douglas Pike called at the farm to collect the faulty cordless telephone from the kitchen; it had been a replacement for the original one, damaged during the lightning strikes. Sheila greeted him at the back door. He noticed Nicholas and Daniel: "I was very impressed, as a grandfather, by the way that the two boys were behaving. They were standing at the end of the kitchen table making paper flags and colouring them in with pencils". Pike left thinking what a happy family they seemed.
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" A happy family ",on the surface,as per hundreds of so-called " happy families ".
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Sorry the incident to which I was referring was the visit of Douglas Pike:
On Monday morning, around 10 o' clock, Douglas Pike called at the farm to collect the faulty cordless telephone from the kitchen; it had been a replacement for the original one, damaged during the lightning strikes. Sheila greeted him at the back door. He noticed Nicholas and Daniel: "I was very impressed, as a grandfather, by the way that the two boys were behaving. They were standing at the end of the kitchen table making paper flags and colouring them in with pencils". Pike left thinking what a happy family they seemed.
I don't believe that there was any gas/electricity man.
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How about the milkman? The paperboy? The fish seller? The encyclopedia salesman? The Ringtons Tea man? I'm sure they were all their that day! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Opps, I almost forgot the postman! :o
Don't forget the Corona man ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I don't believe that there was any gas/electricity man.
You'd better get in touch with Ewen Smith then. It's the only way of finding out.
What I've written was from a document concerning the European Human Rights Act,so it's not my fault that you don't even believe documentation which you forever bleat about as never being available following posts made by certain posters,including myself.
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Don't forget the Corona man ;D ;D ;D ;D
Who? Not heard of him Jane but no doubt he was there that day! There was a queue I hear! :o
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Who? Not heard of him Jane but no doubt he was there that day! There was a queue I hear! :o
Ooops! I'm either showing my age OR the man selling fizzy drinks was still doing his rounds in the depths of deepest, darkest Essex. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It's a fabrication. The gas man came on the Monday morning and saw a typical domestic scene with the boys playing happily.
(https://s9.postimg.org/mje6fxiz3/electric.jpg)
The gas man came on the Monday morning and saw a typical domestic scene
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
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(https://s9.postimg.org/mje6fxiz3/electric.jpg)
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
Where is the extract taken from?
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I don't believe that there was any gas/electricity man.
Once again the phrase
'I don't believe'
So just say you don't know
You do or you dont
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Once again the phrase
'I don't believe'
So just say you don't know
You do or you dont
I'll say what the hell I like.
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David if you'd followed the argument today you'd realize that some members are disputing the authenticity of that story.
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I don't believe you
The subject of the photos of Sheila has been discussed on this forum for years
Take you own advice!
"Once again the phrase
'I don't believe'
So just say you don't know
You do or you dont"
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
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Where is the extract taken from?
Probably the investigating officer who never" coughed".I think it only surfaced in 2003 !
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Probably the investigating officer who never" coughed".I think it only surfaced in 2003 !
I can't find it in any of the books lookout and scrutinizing it again I can't see why the housekeeper or Barbara didn't let the electrician in, then June appears out of nowhere when she's normally off on her travels doing charity work.
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Ooops! I'm either showing my age OR the man selling fizzy drinks was still doing his rounds in the depths of deepest, darkest Essex. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I remember the Corona Man Jane, he was orange and very sparkly. Obvs didn't venture up to the wild wastelands of the NE. ;D
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I can't find it in any of the books lookout and scrutinizing it again I can't see why the housekeeper or Barbara didn't let the electrician in, then June appears out of nowhere when she's normally off on her travels doing charity work.
Probably the reason it wasn't in past publications is self evident as it didn't show up until 2003,or even later,before publication of CP's,Colin's or Wilkes books.
Then when the information did become available,those books which are biased,such as PH and CAL's weren't likely to give that part an airing.
Whether it's mentioned in Lomax's,I don't know. ( can't remember )
As for nobody else being in at the time,it could well have been tea-time and June had appeared on the off-chance returning from her " duties " in time to catch the meter-reader,perhaps.
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I remember the Corona Man Jane, he was orange and very sparkly. Obvs didn't venture up to the wild wastelands of the NE. ;D
His poor horse would never have made it that far, Maggie., but he could have made it in his lorry ;D
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(https://s9.postimg.org/mje6fxiz3/electric.jpg)
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
I don't see that as a "typical domestic", why the need to mention her not taking her medication if she was acting normally?
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I don't see that as a "typical domestic", why the need to mention her not taking her medication if she was acting normally?
That sentence about the medication proves this whole things is BS - Sheila was taking her medication!
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That sentence about the medication proves this whole things is BS - Sheila was taking her medication!
Why would a random person bring that up caroline? How would they know anything about medication Sheila may or may not be taking? She was a stranger. Seems June felt the need to condone her behaviour somewhat. Maybe she hadn't taken it, how was Sheila outside screaming and shouting when she was so "over sedated" she couldn't get off the sofa?
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That sentence about the medication proves this whole things is BS - Sheila was taking her medication!
She couldn't have avoided it had she wanted to. It was injected.
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I don't see that as a "typical domestic", why the need to mention her not taking her medication if she was acting normally?
Sheila didn't take all of the medication which had been prescribed to her anyway.
June would have made that as an excuse for her behaviour.You would do/say that if you were protecting someone's mental health,wouldn't you ? It wouldn't have been the sort of illness that you'd broadcast,especially if you'd been June who was very private. Although this was the problem,because nobody knew about Sheila's outbursts,nobody would have believed Jeremy would they ?
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Sheila didn't take all of the medication which had been prescribed to her anyway.
June would have made that as an excuse for her behaviour.You would do/say that if you were protecting someone's mental health,wouldn't you ? It wouldn't have been the sort of illness that you'd broadcast,especially if you'd been June who was very private. Although this was the problem,because nobody knew about Sheila's outbursts,nobody would have believed Jeremy would they ?
Clearly not, she was trying to protect her, which is what mothers do, she was either to over sedated to the point she couldn't get off the sofa OR hadnt taken her meds (which had been halved) which left her prone to violent outbursts, it can't be both ways? Which one was it?
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I'm sure she wasn't just on haloperidol? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Clearly not, she was trying to protect her, which is what mothers do, she was either to over sedated to the point she couldn't get off the sofa OR hadnt taken her meds (which had been halved) which left her prone to violent outbursts, it can't be both ways? Which one was it?
Lucy, the drug which over sedated her was Haloperidol which was administered by injection. She took other drugs orally to counter act the side effects of Haloperidol. Presumably once the dose of Haloperidol was halved, so, too, were its side effects, so she may not have felt the need to take the oral meds.
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I'm sure she wasn't just on haloperidol? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Her anti-psych drug was haloperidol. Unless someone can produce an official document the electrician/gas man, is just a myth.
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Why would a random person bring that up caroline? How would they know anything about medication Sheila may or may not be taking? She was a stranger. Seems June felt the need to condone her behaviour somewhat. Maybe she hadn't taken it, how was Sheila outside screaming and shouting when she was so "over sedated" she couldn't get off the sofa?
Lucy, we have to put this incident in the same place as all the other BS. We KNOW she was over sedated. Uncommunicative and lethargic. Taking no interest in helping June or caring for the children. There are those who wish her to be a screaming Banshee and this story, like others, has probably been concocted to portray her as such.
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Why would a random person bring that up caroline? How would they know anything about medication Sheila may or may not be taking? She was a stranger. Seems June felt the need to condone her behaviour somewhat. Maybe she hadn't taken it, how was Sheila outside screaming and shouting when she was so "over sedated" she couldn't get off the sofa?
I am saying I don't believe there was a random person ie. no electrician called that day, just like the monastery - it didn't happen.
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Take you own advice!
"Once again the phrase
'I don't believe'
So just say you don't know
You do or you dont"
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
Yes. Now you're getting the hang of it. ;D
(https://media.giphy.com/media/ylyUQlzbyRPAqPaHOo/giphy.gif)
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Yes. Now you're getting the hang of it. ;D
(https://media.giphy.com/media/ylyUQlzbyRPAqPaHOo/giphy.gif)
Of what?
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Clearly not, she was trying to protect her, which is what mothers do, she was either to over sedated to the point she couldn't get off the sofa OR hadnt taken her meds (which had been halved) which left her prone to violent outbursts, it can't be both ways? Which one was it?
Sheila was a young woman and would have by-passed the calming effects of her medication because it was nearing the end of its potency as she'd been nearly due for another injection,a week away,and because it had been halved to what she'd been used to it wouldn't have had the same doping effect anyway. It would have if she'd been June's age.
I believe this has all been spelled out in minute detail for the " non-believers " on another forum,but they still refuse to believe that she could still have outbursts.
Sheila,in her own way was trying to get back control of her life rather than drugs taking over and by her asking for a reduction she'd felt that she was getting back on track for her intentions on what was about to follow before her children went away with Colin and his girlfriend and her under sufference staying at WHF before their return.
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Lucy, we have to put this incident in the same place as all the other BS. We KNOW she was over sedated. Uncommunicative and lethargic.
::) ::) ::) ::)
I'm really not certain what you see as being "heavily medicated" Sheila, if anything was UNDER medicated.
Most of us are now fully cognisant of the dangers of playing "Russian Roulette" with anti psychotic drugs which need to be very carefully monitored. Whilst back in 1985 the general public were ignorant of this fact, it's my contention that the "experts" weren't. Might it therefore have given jurors some pause for thought had they known what effect the sudden HALVING of this drug could have on a person .
(https://media.giphy.com/media/xYQLwxhFaS4Xm/giphy.gif)
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::) ::) ::) ::)
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David I'm confused, are you taking the p out of what I'm saying, what are your thoughts?
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Lucy,see the year of those posts.Contradictory or what ?
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Lucy,see the year of those posts.Contradictory or what ?
Oh I see now, sorry I've had a long day lol thanks lookout :o
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Oh I see now, sorry I've had a long day lol thanks lookout :o
That's okay Lucy.All you can do is laugh really. It just makes a mockery of those concerned though. :o
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Well, we now apparently have Sheila asking to have her drugs reduced because she's already planning to slaughter her boys and parents. Convenient then that she should have a psychotic episode just as she's about to put the plan into action, don't you think?
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That's okay Lucy.All you can do is laugh really. It just makes a mockery of those concerned though. :o
She was either under sedated or over sedated you can't have it both ways x
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She was either under sedated or over sedated you can't have it both ways x
Exactly Lucy. And they can't have the behaviours caused by both states going on at the same time.
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Exactly Lucy. And they can't have the behaviours caused by both states going on at the same time.
So which was it Jane? This is where it's so conflicting and confusing?.
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She was either under sedated or over sedated you can't have it both ways x
Neither one way or 'other really,but drugs affect each individual in a different way. Sheila would have had enough angst inside her to have done what she did,mark my word.
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She was either under sedated or over sedated you can't have it both ways x
Neither one way or t'other really,but drugs affect each individual in a different way. Sheila would have had enough angst inside her to have done what she did,mark my word.
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Neither one way or t'other really,but drugs affect each individual in a different way. Sheila would have had enough angst inside her to have done what she did,mark my word.
I believe that to,
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So which was it Jane? This is where it's so conflicting and confusing?.
Ya pays ya money, Lucy. Ya takes ya choice. Do you want to believe that Sheila deliberately asked to have her meds reduced because she planned, at that early stage, to kill her entire family. OR do you want to believe what all her friends said of her during her last fortnight ie she was unwashed, her hair was dirty, her clothes were dirty and she ignored her children. Colin attests to her silence all the way to WHF. Jeremy say she was unresponsive. June expresses concern about her behaviour.
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Ya pays ya money, Lucy. Ya takes ya choice. Do you want to believe that Sheila deliberately asked to have her meds reduced because she planned, at that early stage, to kill her entire family. OR do you want to believe what all her friends said of her during her last fortnight ie she was unwashed, her hair was dirty, her clothes were dirty and she ignored her children. Colin attests to her silence all the way to WHF. Jeremy say she was unresponsive. June expresses concern about her behaviour.
No I don't believe she pre planned it, she didn't ignore the children as she was out with them alone earlier that day, and had been shopping with them and June, June I agree expresses great concern, what do you make of the remark at the table out of the blue that "all people are evil and need to be killed?"
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No I don't believe she pre planned it, she didn't ignore the children as she was out with them alone earlier that day, and had been shopping with them and June, June I agree expresses great concern, what do you make of the remark at the table out of the blue that "all people are evil and need to be killed?"
That she wanted attention and due to her looks having faded was finding it difficult to get. The removal of the bedroom telephone, if not pre-planned was certainly fortuitous, and I have my suspicions that a hand held mobile telephone can be broken by an electric storm. In any case there was no explanation for the removal of the sights on the gun, which was primed for murder.
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That she wanted attention and due to her looks having faded was finding it difficult to get. The removal of the bedroom telephone, if not pre-planned was certainly fortuitous, and I have my suspicions that a hand held mobile telephone can be broken by an electric storm. In any case there was no explanation for the removal of the sights on the gun, which was primed for murder.
Jeremy said they never used the sights on it, the bedroom telephone is strange, would you not
Notice if your bedroom telephone was missing? I'm more inclined to believe it had been removed due to the others being fixed and relocated then just put in the study by Neville.
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No I don't believe she pre planned it, she didn't ignore the children as she was out with them alone earlier that day, and had been shopping with them and June, June I agree expresses great concern, what do you make of the remark at the table out of the blue that "all people are evil and need to be killed?"
I believe the children went to see Jeremy in the tractor. I assume she went with them. Yes, she went shopping with June. She allegedly took scant notice of what was happening around her and her make up was skewed. We're told that the remark re people being evil came out of the blue, but it's difficult to get a handle on the exact words. They tend to change with the telling. I find it strange that no one asked her to explain. That's the trouble with 'sound bites'. They're simply THERE.
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Jeremy said they never used the sights on it, the bedroom telephone is strange, would you not
Notice if your bedroom telephone was missing? I'm more inclined to believe it had been removed due to the others being fixed and relocated then just put in the study by Neville.
Anthony Pargeter saw the sights on it shortly before the murders. Jeremy isn't really a good source for backing up information.
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Anthony Pargeter saw the sights on it shortly before the murders. Jeremy isn't really a good source for backing up information.
Neither was Pargeter.!!
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Anthony Pargeter saw the sights on it shortly before the murders. Jeremy isn't really a good source for backing up information.
And pargeter was? Where were the sights when the house was searched?
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The same man,AP, sued his own family because they were fleecing him.
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That's okay Lucy.All you can do is laugh really. It just makes a mockery of those concerned though. :o
OMG! You're the most contradictory person on the forum. All it take is a little homework to learn about the drug. Many of us back then took what was written here as reliable information from people who were seeking the truth. Turns out that unless the source is independent and an official document, much of what is claimed here is BS. Looking through old posts and throwing them up in order to goad, is ridiculous, given that changing sides mean a re-evaluation and as one obtains more knowledge on a subject old assumptions are are also re-evaluated. Perhaps we can drag up some of your contradictions?
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Neither one way or 'other really,but drugs affect each individual in a different way. Sheila would have had enough angst inside her to have done what she did,mark my word.
They affected Sheila in the 'over sedated' way. Yes, her behaviour was full of angst - not ONE person mentioned anything other than she was subdued. Make it up if you like - it won't help!
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No I don't believe she pre planned it, she didn't ignore the children as she was out with them alone earlier that day, and had been shopping with them and June, June I agree expresses great concern, what do you make of the remark at the table out of the blue that "all people are evil and need to be killed?"
Only Roch has suggested Sheila pre planned the massacre. However this was apparently only pre planned in Sheila's head during & just after supper on the massacre night.
This is the reason why Sheila was so non responsive that night. Rather than being on Haloperidol.
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I believe Sheila timed the massacre before their stay at WHF ended and the twins went away from her !
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I believe Sheila timed the massacre before their stay at WHF ended and the twins went away from her !
If Sheila wanted to kill herself and the twins, it would have been far easier to do it at her flat and in a much less violent way. Taking on June and Nevill was a risk and if she had aforethought, I'm sure she would have factored that in.
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If Sheila wanted to kill herself and the twins, it would have been far easier to do it at her flat and in a much less violent way. Taking on June and Nevill was a risk and if she had aforethought, I'm sure she would have factored that in.
Yes that's a good point Caroline.
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If Sheila wanted to kill herself and the twins, it would have been far easier to do it at her flat and in a much less violent way. Taking on June and Nevill was a risk and if she had aforethought, I'm sure she would have factored that in.
Because guns were to hand at WHF,it would have been an easier,quicker process than anything she'd have used at her flat. Besides,her mother wouldn't have been there to antagonise her into doing anything as drastic.
The stage was already set at WHF and Sheila had put thought into it,probably more so during and after supper as the discussion got more heated.
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If Sheila planned the massacre there is no reason why Nevill would be awake & able to make phone call/s. She just needed to go downstairs, pick up the rifle & then go upstairs to shoot him.
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Of what?
Posting Ricky Gifs.
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If Sheila wanted to kill herself and the twins, it would have been far easier to do it at her flat and in a much less violent way. Taking on June and Nevill was a risk and if she had aforethought, I'm sure she would have factored that in.
How on earth can you be sure of this? ::)
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If Sheila wanted to kill herself and the twins, it would have been far easier to do it at her flat and in a much less violent way. Taking on June and Nevill was a risk and if she had aforethought, I'm sure she would have factored that in.
Perhaps being at the farm (where she was less happy) and around her mam (with her religiosity etc); and the rejection by Colin; and the recent contact with her birth mother; and the reduction in her anti-psychotic; and fact there were farm weapons - became a lethal combination regarding her mental health. Factor in an added conversation about extra assistance for the twins etc (which took place at the farm - not in London).
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Perhaps being at the farm (where she was less happy) and around her mam (with her religiosity etc); and the rejection by Colin; and the recent contact with her birth mother; and the reduction in her anti-psychotic; and fact there were farm weapons - became a lethal combination regarding her mental health. Factor in an added conversation about extra assistance for the twins etc (which took place at the farm - not in London).
Nothing to support that at the time, she was suffering from 'religiosity' that was when she was in hospital. What rejection by Colin? Regardless of the reduction, she was still on a high dose and even though her next injection was due, she still had a medium dose in her system when she died. I think the semi-auto would have been the last choice of weapon as she didn't know how to use it. We only have Jeremy's word that such a conversation took place - June had no say in how the twins were brought up, Colin had custody.
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Perhaps being at the farm (where she was less happy) and around her mam (with her religiosity etc); and the rejection by Colin; and the recent contact with her birth mother; and the reduction in her anti-psychotic; and fact there were farm weapons - became a lethal combination regarding her mental health. Factor in an added conversation about extra assistance for the twins etc (which took place at the farm - not in London).
It's actually a point that WHF had weapons. While Sheila's flat didn't. But she could have found other ways to kill 6 year old boys at her flat.
However you shot you're bolt by not responding to any of the points on the 'Sheila planning the massacre' thread. Which was specifically created after you said Sheila was so quiet at supper because she was planning in her head to kill everyone, rather than because of being on Haloperidol.
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Perhaps being at the farm (where she was less happy) and around her mam (with her religiosity etc); and the rejection by Colin; and the recent contact with her birth mother; and the reduction in her anti-psychotic; and fact there were farm weapons - became a lethal combination regarding her mental health. Factor in an added conversation about extra assistance for the twins etc (which took place at the farm - not in London).
Then Factor in the fact she was found inside the farm (locked from the inside) with the gun in her arms. Everyone else shot with excessive overkill (typical of a psychotic shooter) With no credible evidence to indicate this was staged. No evidence that Jeremy has the forensic knowledge to stage the crime in such a convincing fashion. Followed by evidence showing Sheila died while Jeremy was outside with the police.
More or less sums it all up.
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Then Factor in the fact she was found inside the farm (locked from the inside) with the gun in her arms. Everyone else shot with excessive overkill (typical of a psychotic shooter) With no credible evidence to indicate this was staged. No evidence that Jeremy has the forensic knowledge to stage the crime in such a convincing fashion. Followed by 'NO' evidence showing Sheila died while Jeremy was outside with the police.
More or less sums it all up.
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If Sheila had pre planned the massacre, she wouldn't be bare footed in a nightie. She had to walk around a big house & perhaps overcome resistance.
Nevill wouldn't wake. If he did, there would be a life or death struggle before he had the chance to make any phone calls. Sheila would attempt to kill him straight away as she had already made up her mind.
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Then Factor in the fact she was found inside the farm (locked from the inside) with the gun in her arms. Everyone else shot with excessive overkill (typical of a psychotic shooter) With no credible evidence to indicate this was staged. No evidence that Jeremy has the forensic knowledge to stage the crime in such a convincing fashion. Followed by evidence showing Sheila died while Jeremy was outside with the police.
More or less sums it all up.
There is evidence she was staged - because TFG members expressed serious, collective concerns to their superiors that body / bible / gun had been moved from their original positions witnessed by TFG.
The concerns led to a question and answer session. The TFG did what they could to complain - but were effectively 'slapped down'. Which ties in with the info given in the opinion on here, regarding police culture at that time.
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There is evidence she was staged - because TFG members expressed serious, collective concerns to their superiors that body / bible / gun had been moved from their original positions witnessed by TFG.
The concerns led to a question and answer session. The TFG did what they could to complain - but were effectively 'slapped down'. Which ties in with the info given in the opinion on here, regarding police culture at that time.
Police disturbing the scene is not evidence of a murder made to look like a suicide. The blood running down her dress shows she was sitting upwards while the shots were fired.
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If Sheila had pre planned the massacre, she wouldn't be bare footed in a nightie. She had to walk around a big house & perhaps overcome resistance.
Nevill wouldn't wake. If he did, there would be a life or death struggle before he had the chance to make any phone calls. Sheila would attempt to kill him straight away as she had already made up her mind.
Day clothes while shooting, shower/nightdress after,and because of the state of the showerhead and Sheila having been a tall girl,that's what would have happened.
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Day clothes while shooting, shower/nightdress after,and because of the state of the showerhead and Sheila having been a tall girl,that's what would have happened.
Oh yes, I forgot. Sheila had a shower after the massacre.
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Oh yes, I forgot. Sheila had a shower after the massacre.
Well you would shower,wouldn't you,as no way on earth would she have remained completely blood-free after killing two adults ?
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Police disturbing the scene is not evidence of a murder made to look like a suicide. The blood running down her dress shows she was sitting upwards while the shots were fired.
It is evidence of police tampering with the crime scene prior to the official photography. One TFG officer who viewed Sheila's body had 'no recollection of a gun'. When you consider the position of the gun atop her body in the crime scene photos - that is a staggering observation.
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Well you would shower,wouldn't you,as no way on earth would she have remained completely blood-free after killing two adults ?
That is true. Why would Sheila care if she was going to kill herself ?
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Well you would shower,wouldn't you,as no way on earth would she have remained completely blood-free after killing two adults ?
Exactly ;)
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Well you would shower,wouldn't you,as no way on earth would she have remained completely blood-free after killing two adults ?
Ha, ha! ;D ;)
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It is evidence of police tampering with the crime scene prior to the official photography. One TFG officer who viewed Sheila's body had 'no recollection of a gun'. When you consider the position of the gun atop her body in the crime scene photos - that is a staggering observation.
Can you supply the source for this ?
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It is evidence of police tampering with the crime scene prior to the official photography. One TFG officer who viewed Sheila's body had 'no recollection of a gun'. When you consider the position of the gun atop her body in the crime scene photos - that is a staggering observation.
One? Did they forget to tell this individual to 'tow the line' ;)
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Not sure what Roch is implying by claiming one police officer said he saw Sheila without the rifle across her.
I can only assume he's saying the police shot her with the murder weapon. Twice.
A more plausible explanation is the police officer saw Sheila after the photos had been taken of her & after the rifle had been taken off.
All will become clearer when Roch posts the source.
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Perhaps being at the farm (where she was less happy) and around her mam (with her religiosity etc); and the rejection by Colin; and the recent contact with her birth mother; and the reduction in her anti-psychotic; and fact there were farm weapons - became a lethal combination regarding her mental health. Factor in an added conversation about extra assistance for the twins etc (which took place at the farm - not in London).
I must say when I found my birth mother, granted she didn't want to know me it was one of the most upsetting times in my life and I had a lot of conflicting emotions, and was very up and down, don't forget Sheila had also had a miscarriage and blamed herself, another trying time for a woman, she may of felt her remaining children she was going to lose, her parents didn't understand her and the rejection from Colin after the rejection at birth would of severely impacted her self worth, couple this with a severe mental problem and mind altering drugs, it's a recipe for disaster. The most sane of minds would probably of found this difficult to deal with let alone a paranoid schizophrenic.
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That is true. Why would Sheila care if she was going to kill herself ?
Adam some suicide victims prefer to meet their maker clean and often they shower can you not remember the story Patti told us about her Aunt who committed suicide she went to great lengths with her appearance and clothing.
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Well you would shower,wouldn't you,as no way on earth would she have remained completely blood-free after killing two adults ?
Hello lookout some posters think this is funny but I believe she did shower after the murders.
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Adam some suicide victims prefer to meet their maker clean and often they shower can you not remember the story Patti told us about her Aunt who committed suicide she went to great lengths with her appearance and clothing.
Being found bare footed in her nightie is not going to great lenghts. It's more an appearance of someone who had just got out of bed.
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One? Did they forget to tell this individual to 'tow the line' ;)
I think another officer mentioned the rifle being beside her. Not sure if that was Miller or one of the TFG. Just to clarify, the TFG would have been the first officers to view Sheila's crime scene in the bedroom. That is the context of these complaints. I'm not sure whether they were shown photos of the crime scene at a debriefing session and this is were the concerns arose - or whether they viewed the crime scene more than once and this is how the concerns arose.
Can you please explain to the idiot one here what I'm getting at - as he clearly doesn't understand (I had the misfortune of seeing on of his posts) :))
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Being found bare footed in her nightie is not going to great lenghts. It's more an appearance of someone who had just got out of bed.
Adam do you think a young lady would wear a nightie like that the nightie is more befitting to a lady of June's age :)
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I must say when I found my birth mother, granted she didn't want to know me it was one of the most upsetting times in my life and I had a lot of conflicting emotions, and was very up and down, don't forget Sheila had also had a miscarriage and blamed herself, another trying time for a woman, she may of felt her remaining children she was going to lose, her parents didn't understand her and the rejection from Colin after the rejection at birth would of severely impacted her self worth, couple this with a severe mental problem and mind altering drugs, it's a recipe for disaster. The most sane of minds would probably of found this difficult to deal with let alone a paranoid schizophrenic.
Sheila wasn't rejected by her birth mother - far from it. She has miscarried more than six years previous. What rejection from Colin? What 'mind altering dugs'? If you're talking about her medication, it was doing what it was supposed to do.
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Adam do you think a young lady would wear a nightie like that the nightie is more befitting to a lady of June's age :)
Are you saying that after killing June, Sheila had a shower and then put on one of June's spare nighties ?
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I think another officer mentioned the rifle being beside her. Not sure if that was Miller or one of the TFG. Just to clarify, the TFG would have been the first officers to view Sheila's crime scene in the bedroom. That is the context of these complaints. I'm not sure whether they were shown photos of the crime scene at a debriefing session and this is were the concerns arose - or whether they viewed the crime scene more than once and this is how the concerns arose.
Can you please explain to the idiot one here what I'm getting at - as he clearly doesn't understand (I had the misfortune of seeing on of his posts) :))
Can you provide a source that one of the police officers saw Sheila without a rifle (2nd request).
I don't recall you ever supplying sources to you're long posts. Just saying you're 'not sure if it was Miller' is not enough.
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Sheila wasn't rejected by her birth mother - far from it. She has miscarried more than six years previous. What rejection from Colin? What 'mind altering dugs'? If you're talking about her medication, it was doing what it was supposed to do.
Why was she adopted then and not kept? The rejection from Colin where he had a new girlfriend and told her he wasn't getting back with her!! The mind altering drugs meaning haloperidol the ones that altered her mind to the point she had no interest in anything????
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Why was she adopted then and not kept? The rejection from Colin where he had a new girlfriend and told her he wasn't getting back with her!! The mind altering drugs meaning haloperidol the ones that altered her mind to the point she had no interest in anything????
Rejection by a man ? It happens & is called life.
She certainly was not rejected by Nevill & June. Who were paying for a London flat, treatment & other expences. But a bit of a mistakes inviting her over for a free summer holiday at WHF though.
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Why was she adopted then and not kept? The rejection from Colin where he had a new girlfriend and told her he wasn't getting back with her!! The mind altering drugs meaning haloperidol the ones that altered her mind to the point she had no interest in anything????
The way single mothers were viewed in 1958 was very different from now. Back then, having a child out of wedlock was seen a a disgrace and bringing shame on a good family. Christine's very middle class parents arranged for her to give birth in a private clinic. She MAY have had -or felt she had- no choice. Equally, she may have voluntarily relinquished her baby, hoping to give her a better life. She and Colin had been divorced almost 6 years so I doubt that she suddenly felt rejected. Her autopsy revealed that the only drug present in her system -of any significance- was Haloperidol.
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And a trace of cannabis,which would have had to have been in her system for nigh-on 6 weeks,the length of time it remains in the system,so withdrawal symptoms of this would also have featured. Maybe she'd wanted her father to open up the safe where there'd been a supply of it ??
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While AE was busy scrutinising Jeremy's dilated pupils,was she also aware that Sheila had been a cannabis smoker too ?
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Latterly,Sheila had been smoking heavily------evidence by her stained fingers. If her cannabis smoking had increased,then her withdrawal symptoms would have been chronic not to say manic as well.
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For 'the stooge'. I cant 100% avoid your posts - as I can see them when I'm not logged in. There is no quick-fix I'm afraid. Though I can think of one particular quick-fix that I have already suggested. BTW - which rock are you going to crawl under when the truth comes out? I cant imagine we'll see much of you on here - as you will no longer have a purpose or role.
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Latterly,Sheila had been smoking heavily------evidence by her stained fingers. If her cannabis smoking had increased,then her withdrawal symptoms would have been chronic not to say manic as well.
But of course, there's NO evidence, other than that TRACE which could have been in her system 6 weeks, that she was a heavy cannabis user.
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The theory of the cannabis in the safe came from when Roland Pargeter was helping on the farm,Neville had caught him smoking it,so took it off him and sent him packing.
" Roly " as he was known, hadn't believed that Jeremy had murdered his family,and supported him until he left London to stay in Ibiza. Like Sheila,he'd only been married for 3 years before divorcing his wife. I think his ex-wife and child live abroad somewhere.
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The theory of the cannabis in the safe came from when Roland Pargeter was helping on the farm,Neville had caught him smoking it,so took it off him and sent him packing.
" Roly " as he was known, hadn't believed that Jeremy had murdered his family,and supported him until he left London to stay in Ibiza. Like Sheila,he'd only been married for 3 years before divorcing his wife. I think his ex-wife and child live abroad somewhere.
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/roly-partgeter
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Ah yes,Portugal. It's AP who lives in Ibiza.
This is the thing with harvest-times on farms that there are so many casual workers coming and going you couldn't possibly keep check of who was who,quite dodgy really. Some chequered backgrounds too.
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Are you saying that after killing June, Sheila had a shower and then put on one of June's spare nighties ?
Adam did I suggest that what a totally ridiculous thing to say ::)
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Adam did I suggest that what a totally ridiculous thing to say ::)
"Adam do you think a young lady would wear a nightie like that the nightie is more befitting to a lady of June's age :)".
Explain what you meant.
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If Sheila wanted to kill herself and the twins, it would have been far easier to do it at her flat and in a much less violent way. Taking on June and Nevill was a risk and if she had aforethought, I'm sure she would have factored that in.
Yes obviously when you are planning to kill your self you are in a really logical mindset
Get real
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That she wanted attention and due to her looks having faded was finding it difficult to get. The removal of the bedroom telephone, if not pre-planned was certainly fortuitous, and I have my suspicions that a hand held mobile telephone can be broken by an electric storm. In any case there was no explanation for the removal of the sights on the gun, which was primed for murder.
You are joking
There was no evidence of her looks fading
She was still stunningly beautiful on the day she died
Just a shame Colin didn't not realise how desperately ill his wife was
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Perhaps being at the farm (where she was less happy) and around her mam (with her religiosity etc); and the rejection by Colin; and the recent contact with her birth mother; and the reduction in her anti-psychotic; and fact there were farm weapons - became a lethal combination regarding her mental health. Factor in an added conversation about extra assistance for the twins etc (which took place at the farm - not in London).
Good post and how I see things
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There is evidence she was staged - because TFG members expressed serious, collective concerns to their superiors that body / bible / gun had been moved from their original positions witnessed by TFG.
The concerns led to a question and answer session. The TFG did what they could to complain - but were effectively 'slapped down'. Which ties in with the info given in the opinion on here, regarding police culture at that time.
The handling of this case has been diabolical
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I must say when I found my birth mother, granted she didn't want to know me it was one of the most upsetting times in my life and I had a lot of conflicting emotions, and was very up and down, don't forget Sheila had also had a miscarriage and blamed herself, another trying time for a woman, she may of felt her remaining children she was going to lose, her parents didn't understand her and the rejection from Colin after the rejection at birth would of severely impacted her self worth, couple this with a severe mental problem and mind altering drugs, it's a recipe for disaster. The most sane of minds would probably of found this difficult to deal with let alone a paranoid schizophrenic.
Lucy at the time this case was heard nobody had instant access to the Internet
It's easy to google mothers that kill themselves and their children
It happens more than you think
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Yes obviously when you are planning to kill your self you are in a really logical mindset
Get real
What the hell do you know about suicide? You truly are an xxxxxxxx xxxx!
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You are joking
There was no evidence of her looks fading
She was still stunningly beautiful on the day she died
Just a shame Colin didn't not realise how desperately ill his wife was
Ann Eaton said she saw crow's feet around her eyes where once she never needed make up. Nurse Caroline Heath said she looked a mess a few weeks before the tragedy. I would agree that away from the bright lights and party lifestyle she was young enough still to regain her looks.
As for Jeremy, there never was a cross word said between him and his parents and he loved the farmwork.. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1935.0.html
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"Adam do you think a young lady would wear a nightie like that the nightie is more befitting to a lady of June's age :)".
Explain what you meant.
Adam I guess your knowledge on ladies nightwear attire is very limited :)
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Adam I guess your knowledge on ladies nightwear attire is very limited :)
Don't kid yourself,Susan,he probably wears them. :)) :)) :))
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Adam I guess your knowledge on ladies nightwear attire is very limited :)
Nighties from 1985 is not my specialist subject. But never too late to learn.
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Nighties from 1985 is not my specialist subject. But never too late to learn.
Adam I thought not but do enjoy learning hehehe :)
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Adam I thought not but do enjoy learning hehehe :)
I will be able to impress people with my knowledge over dinner.
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Don't kid yourself,Susan,he probably wears them. :)) :)) :))
Hahaha lookout nice one never thought of that wee willy winky what a thought :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
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I will be able to impress people with my knowledge over dinner.
Adam hope your dinner table is full :))
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For 'the stooge'. I cant 100% avoid your posts - as I can see them when I'm not logged in. There is no quick-fix I'm afraid. Though I can think of one particular quick-fix that I have already suggested. BTW - which rock are you going to crawl under when the truth comes out? I cant imagine we'll see much of you on here - as you will no longer have a purpose or role.
Thanks for the links, Roch. Seems that "the stooge" hasn't seen them or chosen not to comment, probably because they support entirely what you have said.
That it was members of the TFG, who as a group were unhappy with the position of Sheila's body, gun and bible in the video of photographs they viewed compared to the positions they recalled from the raid, is fairly indicative.
Where it may be plausible that PC plod as an individual may be mistaken in recollecting the position of a gun, it is less believable that a Tactical Firearms Group would all collectively get this wrong and coincidentally get the same details wrong and in the same way.
It does tend to lead in the direction that the Sheila's body and the gun have been re-staged by persons after the TFG have left. A concern seemingly shared by members of the TFG.
What is also noticeable from the links provided is the unanimity amongst the TFG that they were dealing with a murder/suicide.
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For 'the stooge'. I cant 100% avoid your posts - as I can see them when I'm not logged in. There is no quick-fix I'm afraid. Though I can think of one particular quick-fix that I have already suggested. BTW - which rock are you going to crawl under when the truth comes out? I cant imagine we'll see much of you on here - as you will no longer have a purpose or role.
Thanks. Don't know why you called me a stooge. I only asked for a source after you said one policeman said he saw Sheila without the rifle.
Either put me on ignore, or don't. Make up you're mind. It makes no difference to me as I will respond to you're posts as usual. Saying you're doing it & then responding to my posts is what Jan used to do. Pretending you have to read my posts when not logged in doesn't wash as you can stay logged in all the time. As I do. Or 'ignore' them when not logged in.
I couldn't read most of those sources & certainly saw nothing that said a policeman saw Sheila without the rifle. Not that it matters as the rifle was taken off Sheila after the photos were taken.
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Thanks for the links, Roch. Seems that "the stooge" hasn't seen them or chosen not to comment, probably because they support entirely what you have said.
That it was members of the TFG, who as a group were unhappy with the position of Sheila's body, gun and bible in the video of photographs they viewed compared to the positions they recalled from the raid, is fairly indicative.
Where it may be plausible that PC plod as an individual may be mistaken in recollecting the position of a gun, it is less believable that a Tactical Firearms Group would all collectively get this wrong and coincidentally get the same details wrong and in the same way.
It does tend to lead in the direction that the Sheila's body and the gun have been re-staged by persons after the TFG have left. A concern seemingly shared by members of the TFG.
What is also noticeable from the links provided is the unanimity amongst the TFG that they were dealing with a murder/suicide.
It seems totally logical to assert that the TFG operation and/or its immediate aftermath experienced pretty serious complications.
It is obvious that, after TFG had initially viewed the scene, police have either introduced a weapon to the scene or re-positioned a weapon that was originally at the side of Sheila's corpse, so that it has instead ended-up atop her corpse. When you consider Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for over 30 years for leaving said rifle atop Sheila - it's pretty shocking. Obviously when police introduced / moved the rifle, they could never have foresaw that it would result in the victim's brother being sent to prison.
The bible has also ended up mostly covering a very distinctive bloodstain - one suggestion being a pool of blood from Sheila having been placed in the recovery position. I think the Dickinson report suggests that the bible may have been accidentally re-positioned by a TFG member opening one of the doors - however it seems a convenient coincidence, that the door just happened to push the bible over the distinctive bloodstain! Not forgetting the bloodied palm print - Which, for some inextricable reason police have not wanted to include in the case against Jeremy.
I'm not sure what they're getting at re position of head / table but there is a picture in the archive which demonstrates the trajectory of shots is not in line with the positioning of Sheila's head / neck wounds.
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What EP should have done after Jeremy had " blamed " his sister and the relatives had " blamed " Jeremy,would/should have been to have investigated and documented Sheila's social history,medical history and mental history.They failed to do this.
Predeterminal circumstances are vital in determining the causes and manner of the death/s,as well as documentation of medical intervention.
The investigator should always document known circumstances and medical intervention preceding death.
The mental history should have consisted of behavioural issues,hospitalisation and medications. Any documented history of suicide attempts,ideations and or gestures.
Documented health professionals,psychiatrists,psychologists,counsellors and those who treated the decedent. Obtain relevant records.
This information then assists the investigator to evaluate the state of mind of the decedent and contributes to the cause,manner and circumstances of death.
The easiest thing in the world is to point a finger at the last man standing,though how EP could possibly have done so without a scrap of evidence to have proved he was the murderer I fail to understand.
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It seems totally logical to assert that the TFG operation and/or its immediate aftermath experienced pretty serious complications.
It is obvious that, after TFG had initially viewed the scene, police have either introduced a weapon to the scene or re-positioned a weapon that was originally at the side of Sheila's corpse, so that it has instead ended-up atop her corpse. When you consider Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for over 30 years for leaving said rifle atop Sheila - it's pretty shocking. Obviously when police introduced / moved the rifle, they could never have foresaw that it would result in the victim's brother being sent to prison.
The bible has also ended up mostly covering a very distinctive bloodstain - one suggestion being a pool of blood from Sheila having been placed in the recovery position. I think the Dickinson report suggests that the bible may have been accidentally re-positioned by a TFG member opening one of the doors - however it seems a convenient coincidence, that the door just happened to push the bible over the distinctive bloodstain! Not forgetting the bloodied palm print - Which, for some inextricable reason police have not wanted to include in the case against Jeremy.
I'm not sure what they're getting at re position of head / table but there is a picture in the archive which demonstrates the trajectory of shots is not in line with the positioning of Sheila's head / neck wounds.
From what I read Police have admitted moving the rifle from atop Sheila's body to the windowsill and back. As for the bible, I can't see what a palm print from Sheila would prove, even if it did exist.
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From what I read Police have admitted moving the rifle from atop Sheila's body to the windowsill and back. As for the bible, I can't see what a palm print from Sheila would prove, even if it did exist.
Where does it say the police moved the rifle to the window and then back on Sheila ?
The police did agree they moved Sheila's lower arm slightly after the first photograph. This was to show marks on her. The photo's show this.
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Where does it say the police moved the rifle to the window and then back on Sheila ?
The police did agree they moved Sheila's lower arm slightly after the first photograph. This was to show marks on her. The photo's show this.
I'm sure it's somewhere-will check. It's when PC Bird photographed the gun by the window, or so I thought.
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From what I read Police have admitted moving the rifle from atop Sheila's body to the windowsill and back. As for the bible, I can't see what a palm print from Sheila would prove, even if it did exist.
Steve - what members of the raid team are trying to express here - is that when they discovered Sheila upstairs (approximately 2 hours before police photography began) - there was no rifle atop her body. There was probably a rifle at her side (as noted by one TFG member and PI Miller). It was not positioned directly over her corpse, as seen in the crime scene photographs. This was done later, after TFG had discovered, witnessed and mentally noted the scene (hence their concerns upon being later shown a video of crime scene photos).
Therefore - the crime scene was staged by police officers who acted after TFG operation had finished but before police official photography had began.
Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for over 30 years based on a crime scene staged by police.
With regard to the bloodied palm print on the bible: At which point during a masscare carried out by Jeremy Bamber - did one of his victims reach for the bible with a bloodied palm? It makes more sense to imagine Sheila, in a moment of respite after the killings, to have picked up the bible her self - with a bloodied palm.
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I'm sure it's somewhere-will check. It's when PC Bird photographed the gun by the window, or so I thought.
I recommend you or someone else finds the source. Otherwise it didn't happen.
Guliters saying the police took the rifle off Sheila, then put it back on her for the photographs will have supporters getting very excited.with conspiracy theories.
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It seems totally logical to assert that the TFG operation and/or its immediate aftermath experienced pretty serious complications.
It is obvious that, after TFG had initially viewed the scene, police have either introduced a weapon to the scene or re-positioned a weapon that was originally at the side of Sheila's corpse, so that it has instead ended-up atop her corpse. When you consider Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for over 30 years for leaving said rifle atop Sheila - it's pretty shocking. Obviously when police introduced / moved the rifle, they could never have foresaw that it would result in the victim's brother being sent to prison.
The bible has also ended up mostly covering a very distinctive bloodstain - one suggestion being a pool of blood from Sheila having been placed in the recovery position. I think the Dickinson report suggests that the bible may have been accidentally re-positioned by a TFG member opening one of the doors - however it seems a convenient coincidence, that the door just happened to push the bible over the distinctive bloodstain! Not forgetting the bloodied palm print - Which, for some inextricable reason police have not wanted to include in the case against Jeremy.
I'm not sure what they're getting at re position of head / table but there is a picture in the archive which demonstrates the trajectory of shots is not in line with the positioning of Sheila's head / neck wounds.
Thank you Roch all this important information is being fed to a very famous documentary maker
But to do this case any justice there has to be a series not a one of programme
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Thank you Roch all this important information is being fed to a very famous documentary maker
But to do this case any justice there has to be a series not a one of programme
A decent documentary on this case could have wiped-out the prosecuton's case several years ago. But to go that indepth - you need something of the qaulity of 'Rough Justice'. That kind of program hasn't been commissioned for a long time. The angle they used to take was very questioning and critical. That just doesn't happen in modern programs of that length.
The police and prosecution have always been able to rely on the relatives crying 'murderer'. It's a tactic they have used to great effect to impede the truth and protect the staus quo.
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Steve - what members of the raid team are trying to express here - is that when they discovered Sheila upstairs (approximately 2 hours before police photography began) - there was no rifle atop her body. There was probably a rifle at her side (as noted by one TFG member and PI Miller). It was not positioned directly over her corpse, as seen in the crime scene photographs. This was done later, after TFG had discovered, witnessed and mentally noted the scene (hence their concerns upon being later shown a video of crime scene photos).
Therefore - the crime scene was staged by police officers who acted after TFG operation had finished but before police official photography had began.
Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for over 30 years based on a crime scene staged by police.
With regard to the bloodied palm print on the bible: At which point during a masscare carried out by Jeremy Bamber - did one of his victims reach for the bible with a bloodied palm? It makes more sense to imagine Sheila, in a moment of respite after the killings, to have picked up the bible her self - with a bloodied palm.
I seem to recall a video with retired Mick Gradwell from the Lancashire Police mentioning the movement of the rifle, but I was unaware it was deliberately staged, just removed and put back. As for the bible it could easily have been an accoutrement of Sheila's which she brought to the master bedroom on Jeremy's suggestion or was in situ already, and which became bloody upon discharge of the rifle when she wiped her jaw involuntarily after the first shot. I can't see that on its own the exhibit is proof of her exclusive involvement.
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I seem to recall a video with retired Mick Gradwell from the Lancashire Police mentioning the movement of the rifle, but I was unaware it was deliberately staged, just removed and put back. As for the bible it could easily have been an accoutrement of Sheila's which she brought to the master bedroom on Jeremy's suggestion or was in situ already, and which became bloody upon discharge of the rifle when she wiped her jaw involuntarily after the first shot. I can't see that on its own the exhibit is proof of her exclusive involvement.
You need to provide a source. Otherwise it didn't happen.
Mick Gradwell has only said on video the police made mistakes but it is a safe conviction.
I don't believe the police moved the rifle to the window & then put it back on Sheila for the photographs. Why would they ?
Of course the police moved the rifle after pictures had been taken of Sheila. Which is when the picture of the rifle by the window would be taken.
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You need to provide a source. Otherwise it didn't happen.
Mick Gradwell has only said on video the police made mistakes but it is a safe conviction.
I don't believe the police moved the rifle to the window & then put it back on Sheila for the photographs. Why would they ?
Of course the police moved the rifle after pictures had been taken of Sheila. Which is when the picture of the rifle by the window would be taken.
The rifle was moved, but I'm not sure under what circumstances.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/30/jeremy-bamber-appeal-murders-evidence
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The rifle was moved, but I'm not sure under what circumstances.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/30/jeremy-bamber-appeal-murders-evidence
I like this - "Forensic scientists found that a page of one officer's official statement had been "typed using a different typewriter"
This article does not say the rifle was taken off Sheila & put by the window, then put back on her for the crime scene photograhers.
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A decent documentary on this case could have wiped-out the prosecuton's case several years ago. But to go that indepth - you need something of the qaulity of 'Rough Justice'. That kind of program hasn't been commissioned for a long time. The angle they used to take was very questioning and critical. That just doesn't happen in modern programs of that length.
The police and prosecution have always been able to rely on the relatives crying 'murderer'. It's a tactic they have used to great effect to impede the truth and protect the staus quo.
I know of 2 great documentary makers that would be perfect to put together a series on the Bamber case
The timing is perfect because of the success of the Nefix making a murder (not a rushed one hour programme)
Just imagine what someone could do with 6 hour long episodes
Every now and then I lose interest in this case because the 'authorities' make it clear they are going to block any chance of this conviction being overturned
But because of the abuse hurled at a lot of people on this forum that believe there is a good chance this is an unsafe conviction I am all fired up again
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I know of 2 great documentary makers that would be perfect to put together a series on the Bamber case
The timing is perfect because of the success of the Nefix making a murder (not a rushed one hour programme)
Just imagine what someone could do with 6 hour long episodes
Every now and then I lose interest in this case because the 'authorities' make it clear they are going to block any chance of this conviction being overturned
But because of the abuse hurled at a lot of people on this forum that believe there is a good chance this is an unsafe conviction I am all fired up again
We have no video of the trial :( . Trial footage is what makes making a murder so good. Same with the jinx. But I agree there needs to be a long documentary made on this case. At least three episodes an hour each.
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We have no video of the trial :( . Trial footage is what makes making a murder so good. Same with the jinx. But I agree there needs to be a long documentary made on this case. At least three episodes an hour each.
David what are your views On making a murderer?
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David what are your views On making a murderer?
Hi Lucy, go to Podcast and there are about 6x episodes to listen to about Making a Murderer, Jim Clemente and Laura Richards, they take it stage by stage brilliant to listen to 2 professional analysts views. It's on Real Crime Profile. Also if you search in Podcast there are 2 series on WHF but not by these 2 people.
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Hi Lucy, go to Podcast and there are about 6x episodes to listen to about Making a Murderer, Jim Clemente and Laura Richards, they take it stage by stage brilliant to listen to 2 professional analysts views. It's on Real Crime Profile. Also if you search in Podcast there are 2 series on WHF but not by these 2 people.
Thanks justice I watched maki.g a murderer twice have you seen it?
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Thanks justice I watched maki.g a murderer twice have you seen it?
Hi Lucy, yes I watched it twice as well, listen to the Podcasts and then tell me what you think? Remember Netflix only showed you what they wanted you to see to make better viewing, but at the end of the day Steven should get a re trial and Brendan should never have been convicted, that's my view anyway lol.
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A decent documentary on this case could have wiped-out the prosecuton's case several years ago. But to go that indepth - you need something of the qaulity of 'Rough Justice'. That kind of program hasn't been commissioned for a long time. The angle they used to take was very questioning and critical. That just doesn't happen in modern programs of that length.
The police and prosecution have always been able to rely on the relatives crying 'murderer'. It's a tactic they have used to great effect to impede the truth and protect the staus quo.
I thought Rough Justice was discredited after the Sheila Bowler and Eddie Gilfoyle programmes.
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The 'Crimes that shook Britain' is the closest thing to a 'Rough Justice' type programme for Bamber.
With support from Allison, Hunter, Tatchel & Lomax I'm surprised they have not managed to persuade anyone to make a total pro Bamber documentary on the case. Or maybe CTSB was that documentary, which Hunter was in. Eric Allison has also appeared in news programmes.
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Yes it's interesting going through old posts
Remember posting this Caroline
He had just gone through a traumatic event!! I don't blame him for wanting to get away and the trips were hardly 'lavish'. The farm was being managed and what ever he sold, the item were HIS to sell!! Sheila was only left 10 grand in Nevill's will and the twins weren't mentioned. This is where 'research' comes in handy and not just repeating what a badly made documentary had to say.
Did you know that Jeremy inherited the Farm only on condition that he was working satisfactorily on it before Nevill's demise and that Nevill's money was left to June?