Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on January 13, 2016, 02:15:PM
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Did Sheila read the bible ? A source please.
Did Sheila get her extreme religious views from the bible. If so, which part ?
Did Sheila have her own religious books which gave her extreme religious views ?
If Sheila didn't read anything religious, or bring anything to WHF, how did she get her extreme religious views.
Did Sheila bring her own religious books to WHF. If not, why not ?
If Sheila had her own religious books, why didn't she use one of these prior to committing suicide ?
If Sheila didn't bring her own religious books to WHF and did not read any, why was the bible next to her ?
Is it common for religious people who have committed suicide, to read the bible beforehand ?
Was Sheila calm and controlled enough to decide to get the bible before committing suicide ?
Was the light in the main bedroom on ?
Did Sheila know where the bible was ?
Would Sheila read her mothers bible, who she had just killed ?
If the bible was a part of Sheila's religious readings, why didn't she have her own bible ?
What page was the bible left open at . Did it relate to pre suicide reading ?
Why was blood on the bible if Sheila read it before shooting herself ?
If Sheila didn't read the bible after collecting it, before committing suicide, why did she bother going to get it ?
How did the bible end up on top of Sheila's blood on the carpet (TAC) ?
Would Sheila only decide to get the bible after killing four other people ?
When did Sheila write the alleged suicide note inside the bible ?
There are now claims of a suicide note in Sheila's bedroom. Are the CT going to withdraw claims a suicide note was in the bible ?
Did Bamber know about June's bible ?
Would Bamber putting the bible next to Sheila support a religious murder/suicide theory ?
Would Bamber be in control enough to put the bible next to Sheila ?
Does the bible support suicide ?
Does the bible support murder ?
Does the bible support ritualistic cleansing ?
Could Sheila read the bible in the dark ?
Why did Sheila shoot herself once upstairs. Read the bible and then go downstairs ? As claimed by the OS.
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Did Sheila read the bible ?
Did Sheila get her extreme religious views from the bible. If so, which part ?
Did Sheila have her own religious books which gave her extreme religious views ?
Did Sheila bring her own religious books to WHF. If not, why not ?
If Sheila had her own religious books, why didn't she use one of these prior to committing suicide ?
If Sheila didn't bring her own religious books to WHF and did not read any, why was the bible next to her ?
Is it common for religious people who have committed suicide, to read the bible beforehand ?
If Sheila didn't read the bible, why is it next to her ?
Was Sheila calm and controlled enough to decide to get the bible before committing suicide ?
Did Sheila know where the bible was ?
If the bible was a part of Sheila's religious readings, why didn't she have her own bible ?
What page was the bible left open at . Did it relate to pre suicide reading ?
Why was blood on the bible if Sheila read it before shooting herself ?
If Sheila didn't read the bible after collecting it, before committing suicide, why did she bother going to get it ?
How did the bible end up on top of Sheila's blood on the carpet (TAC) ?
Would Sheila only decide to get the bible after killing four other people ?
Why would an alleged suicide note be left inside the bible, and perhaps never read ?
When did Sheila write the alleged suicide note ?
Did Bamber know about June's bible ?
Would Bamber putting the bible next to Sheila support a religious murder/suicide theory ?
are you being serious? :o
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Did Sheila read the bible ?
Did Sheila get her extreme religious views from the bible. If so, which part ?
Did Sheila have her own religious books which gave her extreme religious views ?
Did Sheila bring her own religious books to WHF. If not, why not ?
If Sheila had her own religious books, why didn't she use one of these prior to committing suicide ?
If Sheila didn't bring her own religious books to WHF and did not read any, why was the bible next to her ?
Is it common for religious people who have committed suicide, to read the bible beforehand ?
Was Sheila calm and controlled enough to decide to get the bible before committing suicide ?
Did Sheila know where the bible was ?
If the bible was a part of Sheila's religious readings, why didn't she have her own bible ?
What page was the bible left open at . Did it relate to pre suicide reading ?
Why was blood on the bible if Sheila read it before shooting herself ?
If Sheila didn't read the bible after collecting it, before committing suicide, why did she bother going to get it ?
How did the bible end up on top of Sheila's blood on the carpet (TAC) ?
Would Sheila only decide to get the bible after killing four other people ?
Why would an alleged suicide note be left inside the bible, and perhaps never read ?
When did Sheila write the alleged suicide note ?
Did Bamber know about June's bible ?
Would Bamber putting the bible next to Sheila support a religious murder/suicide theory ?
Did Sheila read the bible ? Yes
Did Sheila get her extreme religious views from the bible. If so, which part ? Impossible to know
Did Sheila have her own religious books which gave her extreme religious views ? Maybe her Dr could answer that question
Did Sheila bring her own religious books to WHF. If not, why not ? The bibles are all the same
If Sheila had her own religious books, why didn't she use one of these prior to committing suicide ? Same answer as above
If Sheila didn't bring her own religious books to WHF and did not read any, why was the bible next to her ? She did read the bible
Is it common for religious people who have committed suicide, to read the bible beforehand ? Yes
Was Sheila calm and controlled enough to decide to get the bible before committing suicide ?
If Shelia did commit suicide then the bible is one the root causes it, belief in afterlife and heaven ect
Did Sheila know where the bible was ?
yes
If the bible was a part of Sheila's religious readings, why didn't she have her own bible ?
Who said she didn't
What page was the bible left open at . Did it relate to pre suicide reading ?
Psalm 51-55
1
Have mercy on me, O God, in your great goodness; •
according to the abundance of your compassion
blot out my offences.
2
Wash me thoroughly from my wickedness •
and cleanse me from my sin.
3
For I acknowledge my faults •
and my sin is ever before me.
4
Against you only have I sinned •
and done what is evil in your sight,
5
So that you are justified in your sentence •
and righteous in your judgement.
6
I have been wicked even from my birth, •
a sinner when my mother conceived me.
7
Behold, you desire truth deep within me •
and shall make me understand wisdom
in the depths of my heart.
8
Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean; •
wash me and I shall be whiter than snow.
9
Make me hear of joy and gladness, •
that the bones you have broken may rejoice.
10
Turn your face from my sins •
and blot out all my misdeeds.
11
Make me a clean heart, O God, •
and renew a right spirit within me.
12
Cast me not away from your presence •
and take not your holy spirit from me.
13
Give me again the joy of your salvation •
and sustain me with your gracious spirit;
14
Then shall I teach your ways to the wicked •
and sinners shall return to you.
15
Deliver me from my guilt, O God,
the God of my salvation, •
and my tongue shall sing of your righteousness.
16
O Lord, open my lips •
and my mouth shall proclaim your praise.
17
For you desire no sacrifice, else I would give it; •
you take no delight in burnt offerings.
18
The sacrifice of God is a broken spirit; •
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
19
O be favourable and gracious to Zion; •
build up the walls of Jerusalem.
20
Then you will accept sacrifices offered in righteousness,
the burnt offerings and oblations; •
then shall they offer up bulls on your altar.
Psalm 52
1
Why do you glory in evil, you tyrant, •
while the goodness of God endures continually?
2
You plot destruction, you deceiver; •
your tongue is like a sharpened razor.
3
You love evil rather than good, •
falsehood rather than the word of truth.
4
You love all words that hurt, •
O you deceitful tongue.
5
Therefore God shall utterly bring you down; •
he shall take you and pluck you out of your tent
and root you out of the land of the living.
6
The righteous shall see this and tremble; •
they shall laugh you to scorn, and say:
7
'This is the one who did not take God for a refuge, •
but trusted in great riches and relied upon wickedness.'
8
But I am like a spreading olive tree in the house of God; •
I trust in the goodness of God for ever and ever.
9
I will always give thanks to you for what you have done; •
I will hope in your name,
for your faithful ones delight in it.
Psalm 53
1
The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' •
Corrupt are they, and abominable in their wickedness;
there is no one that does good.
2
God has looked down from heaven upon the children of earth, •
to see if there is anyone who is wise and seeks after God.
3
They are all gone out of the way;
all alike have become corrupt; •
there is no one that does good, no not one.
4
Have they no knowledge, those evildoers, •
who eat up my people as if they ate bread,
and do not call upon God?
5
There shall they be in great fear,
such fear as never was; •
for God will scatter the bones of the ungodly.
6
They will be put to shame, •
because God has rejected them.
7
O that Israel's salvation would come out of Zion! •
When God restores the fortunes of his people
then will Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.
Psalm 54
1
Save me, O God, by your name •
and vindicate me by your power.
2
Hear my prayer, O God; •
give heed to the words of my mouth.
3
For strangers have risen up against me,
and the ruthless seek after my life; •
they have not set God before them.
4
Behold, God is my helper; •
it is the Lord who upholds my life.
5
May evil rebound on those who lie in wait for me; •
destroy them in your faithfulness.
6
An offering of a free heart will I give you •
and praise your name, O Lord, for it is gracious.
7
For he has delivered me out of all my trouble, •
and my eye has seen the downfall of my enemies.
Psalm 55
1
Hear my prayer, O God; •
hide not yourself from my petition.
2
Give heed to me and answer me; •
I am restless in my complaining.
3
I am alarmed at the voice of the enemy •
and at the clamour of the wicked;
4
For they would bring down evil upon me •
and are set against me in fury.
5
My heart is disquieted within me, •
and the terrors of death have fallen upon me.
6
Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, •
and a horrible dread has overwhelmed me.
7
And I said: 'O that I had wings like a dove, •
for then would I fly away and be at rest.
8
'Then would I flee far away •
and make my lodging in the wilderness.
9
'I would make haste to escape •
from the stormy wind and tempest.'
10
Confuse their tongues, O Lord, and divide them, •
for I have seen violence and strife in the city.
11
Day and night they go about on her walls; •
mischief and trouble are in her midst.
12
Wickedness walks in her streets; •
oppression and guile never leave her squares.
13
For it was not an open enemy that reviled me, •
for then I could have borne it;
14
Nor was it my adversary that puffed himself up against me, •
for then I would have hid myself from him.
15
But it was even you, one like myself, •
my companion and my own familiar friend.
16
We took sweet counsel together •
and walked with the multitude in the house of God.
17
Let death come suddenly upon them;
let them go down alive to the Pit; •
for wickedness inhabits their dwellings, their very hearts.
18
As for me, I will call upon God •
and the Lord will deliver me.
19
In the evening and morning and at noonday
I will pray and make my supplication, •
and he shall hear my voice.
20
He shall redeem my soul in peace
from the battle waged against me, •
for many have come upon me.
21
God, who is enthroned of old,
will hear and bring them down; •
they will not repent, for they have no fear of God.
22
My companion stretched out his hands against his friend •
and has broken his covenant;
23
His speech was softer than butter, though war was in his heart; •
his words were smoother than oil, yet are they naked swords.
24
Cast your burden upon the Lord and he will sustain you, •
and will not let the righteous fall for ever.
25
But those that are bloodthirsty and deceitful, O God, •
you will bring down to the pit of destruction.
26
They shall not live out half their days, •
but my trust shall be in you, O Lord.
Why was blood on the bible if Sheila read it before shooting herself ?
blood on her hands or blood spatter
How did the bible end up on top of Sheila's blood on the carpet (TAC) ?
We don't know if its Shelia's blood or not
Would Sheila only decide to get the bible after killing four other people ?
Dont know :-\
Why would an alleged suicide note be left inside the bible, and perhaps never read ?
We don't know the contents so I am not going to jump to a conclusion
When did Sheila write the alleged suicide note ?
We don't know if it is a suicide note
Did Bamber know about June's bible ?
I would assume so
Would Bamber putting the bible next to Sheila support a religious murder/suicide theory ?
No if you want to support a religious murder/suicide theory you should use a book on decorating cookies ;)
(http://tidymom.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Decorating-Cookies.jpg)
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Did Sheila read the bible ? Yes
Did Sheila get her extreme religious views from the bible. If so, which part ? Impossible to know
Did Sheila have her own religious books which gave her extreme religious views ? Maybe her Dr could answer that question
Did Sheila bring her own religious books to WHF. If not, why not ? The bibles are all the same
If Sheila had her own religious books, why didn't she use one of these prior to committing suicide ? Same answer as above
If Sheila didn't bring her own religious books to WHF and did not read any, why was the bible next to her ? She did read the bible
Is it common for religious people who have committed suicide, to read the bible beforehand ? Yes
Was Sheila calm and controlled enough to decide to get the bible before committing suicide ?
If Shelia did commit suicide then the bible is one the root causes it, belief in afterlife and heaven ect
Did Sheila know where the bible was ?
yes
If the bible was a part of Sheila's religious readings, why didn't she have her own bible ?
Who said she didn't
What page was the bible left open at . Did it relate to pre suicide reading ?
Psalm 51-55
1
Have mercy on me, O God, in your great goodness; •
according to the abundance of your compassion
blot out my offences.
2
Wash me thoroughly from my wickedness •
and cleanse me from my sin.
3
For I acknowledge my faults •
and my sin is ever before me.
4
Against you only have I sinned •
and done what is evil in your sight,
5
So that you are justified in your sentence •
and righteous in your judgement.
6
I have been wicked even from my birth, •
a sinner when my mother conceived me.
7
Behold, you desire truth deep within me •
and shall make me understand wisdom
in the depths of my heart.
8
Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean; •
wash me and I shall be whiter than snow.
9
Make me hear of joy and gladness, •
that the bones you have broken may rejoice.
10
Turn your face from my sins •
and blot out all my misdeeds.
11
Make me a clean heart, O God, •
and renew a right spirit within me.
12
Cast me not away from your presence •
and take not your holy spirit from me.
13
Give me again the joy of your salvation •
and sustain me with your gracious spirit;
14
Then shall I teach your ways to the wicked •
and sinners shall return to you.
15
Deliver me from my guilt, O God,
the God of my salvation, •
and my tongue shall sing of your righteousness.
16
O Lord, open my lips •
and my mouth shall proclaim your praise.
17
For you desire no sacrifice, else I would give it; •
you take no delight in burnt offerings.
18
The sacrifice of God is a broken spirit; •
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
19
O be favourable and gracious to Zion; •
build up the walls of Jerusalem.
20
Then you will accept sacrifices offered in righteousness,
the burnt offerings and oblations; •
then shall they offer up bulls on your altar.
Psalm 52
1
Why do you glory in evil, you tyrant, •
while the goodness of God endures continually?
2
You plot destruction, you deceiver; •
your tongue is like a sharpened razor.
3
You love evil rather than good, •
falsehood rather than the word of truth.
4
You love all words that hurt, •
O you deceitful tongue.
5
Therefore God shall utterly bring you down; •
he shall take you and pluck you out of your tent
and root you out of the land of the living.
6
The righteous shall see this and tremble; •
they shall laugh you to scorn, and say:
7
'This is the one who did not take God for a refuge, •
but trusted in great riches and relied upon wickedness.'
8
But I am like a spreading olive tree in the house of God; •
I trust in the goodness of God for ever and ever.
9
I will always give thanks to you for what you have done; •
I will hope in your name,
for your faithful ones delight in it.
Psalm 53
1
The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' •
Corrupt are they, and abominable in their wickedness;
there is no one that does good.
2
God has looked down from heaven upon the children of earth, •
to see if there is anyone who is wise and seeks after God.
3
They are all gone out of the way;
all alike have become corrupt; •
there is no one that does good, no not one.
4
Have they no knowledge, those evildoers, •
who eat up my people as if they ate bread,
and do not call upon God?
5
There shall they be in great fear,
such fear as never was; •
for God will scatter the bones of the ungodly.
6
They will be put to shame, •
because God has rejected them.
7
O that Israel's salvation would come out of Zion! •
When God restores the fortunes of his people
then will Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.
Psalm 54
1
Save me, O God, by your name •
and vindicate me by your power.
2
Hear my prayer, O God; •
give heed to the words of my mouth.
3
For strangers have risen up against me,
and the ruthless seek after my life; •
they have not set God before them.
4
Behold, God is my helper; •
it is the Lord who upholds my life.
5
May evil rebound on those who lie in wait for me; •
destroy them in your faithfulness.
6
An offering of a free heart will I give you •
and praise your name, O Lord, for it is gracious.
7
For he has delivered me out of all my trouble, •
and my eye has seen the downfall of my enemies.
Psalm 55
1
Hear my prayer, O God; •
hide not yourself from my petition.
2
Give heed to me and answer me; •
I am restless in my complaining.
3
I am alarmed at the voice of the enemy •
and at the clamour of the wicked;
4
For they would bring down evil upon me •
and are set against me in fury.
5
My heart is disquieted within me, •
and the terrors of death have fallen upon me.
6
Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, •
and a horrible dread has overwhelmed me.
7
And I said: 'O that I had wings like a dove, •
for then would I fly away and be at rest.
8
'Then would I flee far away •
and make my lodging in the wilderness.
9
'I would make haste to escape •
from the stormy wind and tempest.'
10
Confuse their tongues, O Lord, and divide them, •
for I have seen violence and strife in the city.
11
Day and night they go about on her walls; •
mischief and trouble are in her midst.
12
Wickedness walks in her streets; •
oppression and guile never leave her squares.
13
For it was not an open enemy that reviled me, •
for then I could have borne it;
14
Nor was it my adversary that puffed himself up against me, •
for then I would have hid myself from him.
15
But it was even you, one like myself, •
my companion and my own familiar friend.
16
We took sweet counsel together •
and walked with the multitude in the house of God.
17
Let death come suddenly upon them;
let them go down alive to the Pit; •
for wickedness inhabits their dwellings, their very hearts.
18
As for me, I will call upon God •
and the Lord will deliver me.
19
In the evening and morning and at noonday
I will pray and make my supplication, •
and he shall hear my voice.
20
He shall redeem my soul in peace
from the battle waged against me, •
for many have come upon me.
21
God, who is enthroned of old,
will hear and bring them down; •
they will not repent, for they have no fear of God.
22
My companion stretched out his hands against his friend •
and has broken his covenant;
23
His speech was softer than butter, though war was in his heart; •
his words were smoother than oil, yet are they naked swords.
24
Cast your burden upon the Lord and he will sustain you, •
and will not let the righteous fall for ever.
25
But those that are bloodthirsty and deceitful, O God, •
you will bring down to the pit of destruction.
26
They shall not live out half their days, •
but my trust shall be in you, O Lord.
Why was blood on the bible if Sheila read it before shooting herself ?
blood on her hands or blood spatter
How did the bible end up on top of Sheila's blood on the carpet (TAC) ?
We don't know if its Shelia's blood or not
Would Sheila only decide to get the bible after killing four other people ?
Dont know :-\
Why would an alleged suicide note be left inside the bible, and perhaps never read ?
We don't know the contents so I am not going to jump to a conclusion
When did Sheila write the alleged suicide note ?
We don't know if it is a suicide note
Did Bamber know about June's bible ?
I would assume so
Would Bamber putting the bible next to Sheila support a religious murder/suicide theory ?
No if you want to support a religious murder/suicide theory you should use a book on decorating cookies ;)
(http://tidymom.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Decorating-Cookies.jpg)
you must have been up all night writing that post david.its hope he doesnt ask a simmilar question :))
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Great to have some attempts at answering. And good that you admitted you couldn't answer some of the questions.
Now I just need some sources.
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Source 1:
Sheila read the bible.
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Source 2:
Bibles will all be the same.
But are all religious books the same ? Which is really the question
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Source 3:
The bible is often read by people prior to committing suicide.
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Source 4:
Sheila knew where the bible was.
It is impossible to prove or disprove this. However there has been a recent claim, that for some reason there were four bibles at WHF. Which is strange as all bibles are the same.
A source confirming there were four bibles at WHF would be good.
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Source 5:
Sheila had her own bible with her. If she apparently read the bible, she would have brought it with her. So would have used her own, rather than June's. Bibles are very personal things.
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Its all here on the forum or you can use google . It was in the statements about the descriptions of all the different bibles.Do your own research - and if you don't I will assume you are not really interested in the answers
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Source 6:
How did Sheila have blood on her hands she transferred to the bible, but the rest of her was mark free.
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Source 7:
It was not Sheila's blood on the carpet the bible landed on TAC.
-
Source 8:
As a treat I will provide the source.
Bamber did know about June's bible. It's in his police interview transcripts.
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Source 7:
How did Sheila have blood on her hands she transferred to the bible, but the rest of her was mark free.
? How do you think? You have seen the photos and I don't think the blood was identified as hers ? I am not sure what testing they did except finger prints?
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Source 9:
As a treat I will provide the source.
Bamber did know about June's bible. It's in his police interview transcripts.
? so you are asking questions that you know the answer to?
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Source 9:
That a person attempting to frame someone for murder/suicide partly on religious grounds, would put a book on decorating cookies next to the deceased person.
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Source 8:
It was not Sheila's blood the bible land on. TAC.
adam you will have em up allnight again
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Source 10:
The page the bible was at.
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Source 10:
That a person attempting to frame someone for murder/suicide partly on religious grounds, would put a book on decorating cookies next to the deceased person.
ahhh did you misunderstand Davids post?
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ahhh did you misunderstand Davids post?
David copied and pasted a long poem or whatever it is.
Just need a source that was the page the bible was on.
-
adam you will have em up allnight again
Thanks to everyone in advance for providing the answers and sources.
Obviously all these questions must be comprehensively answered.
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David said Sheila read the bible. And no one knows whether she had brought her own bible with her.
You would expect Sheila to bring her own bible. As they are personal things and she was staying at WHF for a long time.
So it was a surprise she used June's bible prior to committing suicide. She had just shot June 7 times.
The only explanation is she didn't bring a bible to WHF as she didn't read one. And that Bamber rather obviously put the bible next to Sheila.
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David said Sheila read the bible. And no one knows whether she had brought her own bible with her.
You would expect Sheila to bring her own bible. As they are personal things and she was staying at WHF for a long time.
So it was a surprise she used June's bible prior to committing suicide. She had just shot June 7 times.
The only explanation is she didn't bring a bible to WHF as she didn't read one. And that Bamber rather obviously put the bible next to Sheila.
imo sheila didnt even see that bible let alone read it .remember she was in a psychotic fit and in that fit she had time to thumb through the bible and have a good read than it was back to the fit to shoot herself.
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David copied and pasted a long poem or whatever it is.
Just need a source that was the page the bible was on.
there are threads in 2011 called "the bible" and the photos of the page it was open at are on there and in the archives. Use the search button.
Interesting about the cleansing referral when you read what ferguson said in court
court, Dr Ferguson said: ‘Sheila had a very strong belief that she had evil in her mind and her adopted mother also had evil in her mind and they both needed the evil to be cleansed… She was… caught up with the idea that the Devil had taken her over and given her the power to direct the Devil’s evil not only on to other people but particularly her twin sons… She had complex ideas about having sex with her twin sons. She thought her sons would seduce her and saw the devil in both of them. In particular, she thought Nicholas was a woman-hater and a potential murderer.’ Merely a matter of days before the shootings, a psychiatric report noted that her illness was centred on her children whom she referred to ‘the Devil’s children.’ Dr Ferguson also wrote in his report that Sheila had expressed suicidal ideation
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David copied and pasted a long poem or whatever it is.
Just need a source that was the page the bible was on.
That 'long poem or whatever it was' is the contents of the two pages that were open
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imo sheila didnt even see that bible let alone read it .remember she was in a psychotic fit and in that fit she had time to thumb through the bible and have a good read than it was back to the fit to shoot herself.
Most posters have referred to that as a possibility not a fact .It could just be that she was clinically severely depressed and thought everyone would be better off without her and if she could not have her sons no one could . No one knows it is all supposition and assumption. But one thing that Jeremy did not lie about was that she was ill and whatever the truth she should be sympathised with and not be the subject of sarcasm.
What do you think about Fergusons comments ?
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Source 9:
That a person attempting to frame someone for murder/suicide partly on religious grounds, would put a book on decorating cookies next to the deceased person.
I was being sarcastic as I considered your question rather silly and self explanatory
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That 'long poem or whatever it was' is the contents of the two pages that were open
I think from his post he may not be familiar with the bible at all ?
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there are threads in 2011 called "the bible" and the photos of the page it was open at are on there and in the archives. Use the search button.
Interesting about the cleansing referral when you read what ferguson said in court
court, Dr Ferguson said: ‘Sheila had a very strong belief that she had evil in her mind and her adopted mother also had evil in her mind and they both needed the evil to be cleansed… She was… caught up with the idea that the Devil had taken her over and given her the power to direct the Devil’s evil not only on to other people but particularly her twin sons… She had complex ideas about having sex with her twin sons. She thought her sons would seduce her and saw the devil in both of them. In particular, she thought Nicholas was a woman-hater and a potential murderer.’ Merely a matter of days before the shootings, a psychiatric report noted that her illness was centred on her children whom she referred to ‘the Devil’s children.’ Dr Ferguson also wrote in his report that Sheila had expressed suicidal ideation
Which IS odd because Dr Ferguson stated that whilst, during her first breakdown, her conversations were all about her relationships with her children/.family, during her second breakdown she barely mentioned them. Given that after she left his care for the second time he never saw her again, I have to wonder from where his information came.
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David said Sheila read the bible. And no one knows whether she had brought her own bible with her.
You would expect Sheila to bring her own bible. As they are personal things and she was staying at WHF for a long time.
So it was a surprise she used June's bible prior to committing suicide. She had just shot June 7 times.
The only explanation is she didn't bring a bible to WHF as she didn't read one. And that Bamber rather obviously put the bible next to Sheila.
why would she bring her own bible when there were 4 at the house?
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Which IS odd because Dr Ferguson stated that whilst, during her first breakdown, her conversations were all about her relationships with her children/.family, during her second breakdown she barely mentioned them. Given that after she left his care for the second time he never saw her again, I have to wonder from where his information came.
It came from this forum - that's all I can say
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Most posters have referred to that as a possibility not a fact .It could just be that she was clinically severely depressed and thought everyone would be better off without her and if she could not have her sons no one could . No one knows it is all supposition and assumption. But one thing that Jeremy did not lie about was that she was ill and whatever the truth she should be sympathised with and not be the subject of sarcasm.
What do you think about Fergusons comments ?
As well as a deteriorating condition which I've read too. Which, reading between the lines sounds as though everything had been done that could be done.
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there are threads in 2011 called "the bible" and the photos of the page it was open at are on there and in the archives. Use the search button.
Interesting about the cleansing referral when you read what ferguson said in court
court, Dr Ferguson said: ‘Sheila had a very strong belief that she had evil in her mind and her adopted mother also had evil in her mind and they both needed the evil to be cleansed… She was… caught up with the idea that the Devil had taken her over and given her the power to direct the Devil’s evil not only on to other people but particularly her twin sons… She had complex ideas about having sex with her twin sons. She thought her sons would seduce her and saw the devil in both of them. In particular, she thought Nicholas was a woman-hater and a potential murderer.’ Merely a matter of days before the shootings, a psychiatric report noted that her illness was centred on her children whom she referred to ‘the Devil’s children.’ Dr Ferguson also wrote in his report that Sheila had expressed suicidal ideation
if he knew all that yet didnt section her .than he should be charged with failing to provide proper care for sheila.sheila had expressed suicidal ideation.fair enough.did she express thoughts of killing others
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I think from his post he may not be familiar with the bible at all ?
Have you heard his latest piece of evidence against Jeremy? He claims the bible must have been plated by Jeremy because Shelia would not have been able to find the bible in a house that big.
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As well as a deteriorating condition which I've read too. Which, reading between the lines sounds as though everything had been done that could be done.
Lookout, I wonder what more he could be expected to have done? She was a private patient so he couldn't keep her there against her will. He had medicated her in a way he believed to be appropriate. She had positive feelings about her future life. I believe he'd put some counselling sessions in place for her and he'd arranged for psychiatric nurses to visit her. It sounds as if everything was done that COULD have been done...................That's not to say it was enough but his hands were tied by the Bambers' refusal to use the NHS.
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Have you heard his latest piece of evidence against Jeremy? He claims the bible must have been plated by Jeremy because Shelia would not have been able to find the bible in a house that big.
I mostly only answer those posts of Adam's quoted by others, which is how I noticed his ignorance of the bible. Judging by the opening post Adam is amusing himself at your expense. He appears to have prepared a set of questions which have no positive answer -they're ambiguous- so no one is going to be able to answer them correctly but he'll probably be sniggering at your efforts.
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Lookout, I wonder what more he could be expected to have done? She was a private patient so he couldn't keep her there against her will. He had medicated her in a way he believed to be appropriate. She had positive feelings about her future life. I believe he'd put some counselling sessions in place for her and he'd arranged for psychiatric nurses to visit her. It sounds as if everything was done that COULD have been done...................That's not to say it was enough but his hands were tied by the Bambers' refusal to use the NHS.
Jane,you can take a horse to water,etc etc,and this is possibly what Dr Ferguson was referring to as Sheila wasn't compliant in following up with anything.The ball was in her court if she'd ever wished to get better and he'd have known of the consequences of her refusals.
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why would she bring her own bible when there were 4 at the house?
Well I have just asked for a source that there were four bibles.
As I said bibles are personal things.
Anyway Sheila would certainly have been reading more warped religious material. She massacred her whole family. Except Bamber. It is a surprise she didn't bring this reading material with her.
She didn't just commit this crime because of the alleged supper conversation. June's bible was next to her.
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I think from his post he may not be familiar with the bible at all ?
Correct.
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Jane,you can take a horse to water,etc etc,and this is possibly what Dr Ferguson was referring to as Sheila wasn't compliant in following up with anything.The ball was in her court if she'd ever wished to get better and he'd have known of the consequences of her refusals.
Which must beg the question, did he believe she was still capable of making that decision? His position was an invidious one. The Bambers, paying for her care, would surely have been entitled to know -to have received a report- on her treatment. However, Sheila was an adult so patient confidentiality would kick in. She was no longer married to Colin so similar restrictions would apply there. If she made no effort for herself, I guess she'd have been on her own................ which is probably how she felt when Christine didn't scoop her up and fly her back to Canada and Colin declined a reconciliation.
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I was being sarcastic as I considered your question rather silly and self explanatory
These questions must be answered comprehensively. Everything about the bible points to Bamber.
And you must provide you're promised detailed 2016 breakdown of how Sheila committed the massacre. To match the crime scene. 99th request. Bamber's had a bad few weeks on here and needs a boost.
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if he knew all that yet didnt section her .than he should be charged with failing to provide proper care for sheila.sheila had expressed suicidal ideation.fair enough.did she express thoughts of killing others
Please don't quote this as fact, but it's possible, that as she was there -in the clinic- for 4 weeks, it was the private sector's form of section. I have never heard it said that she expressed thoughts of KILLING others but I think she expressed fears of harming the boys during her first breakdown.
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if he knew all that yet didnt section her .than he should be charged with failing to provide proper care for sheila.sheila had expressed suicidal ideation.fair enough.did she express thoughts of killing others
In his last statement he did say he saw her in March and I think he thought she had been discharged too early or something to that affect .
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Have you heard his latest piece of evidence against Jeremy? He claims the bible must have been plated by Jeremy because Shelia would not have been able to find the bible in a house that big.
I hope he is not a law student. Genuinely I hope he is not.
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Well I have just asked for a source that there were four bibles.
As I said bibles are personal things.
Anyway Sheila would certainly have been reading more warped religious material. She massacred her whole family. Except Bamber. It is a surprise she didn't bring this reading material with her.
She didn't just commit this crime because of the alleged supper conversation. June's bible was next to her.
I am not falling for your little tricks any more - ITS HERE ON THE FORUM - USE THE SEARCH BUTTON
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These questions must be answered comprehensively. Everything about the bible points to Bamber.
And you must provide you're promised detailed 2016 breakdown of how Sheila committed the massacre. To match the crime scene. 99th request. Bamber's had a bad few weeks on here and needs a boost.
Jeremy has not had a bad few weeks on here ? How can he need a boost? That's a weird comment?
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In his last statement he did say he saw her in March and I think he thought she had been discharged too early or something to that affect .
She left a week earlier that he would have liked but she didn't want her first meeting with Christine to take place in a psych clinic. I have no idea WHEN their first meeting was so I'm prepared to think it MAY have been a rouse on Sheila's part to leave.
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Well I have just asked for a source that there were four bibles.
As I said bibles are personal things.
Anyway Sheila would certainly have been reading more warped religious material. She massacred her whole family. Except Bamber. It is a surprise she didn't bring this reading material with her.
She didn't just commit this crime because of the alleged supper conversation. June's bible was next to her.
Bibles are not personal things. You can find them in hotel rooms sometimes in some countries
And who are you to say that Sheila would be reading warped religious material?
All anyone can say is what she told her medical team and others about her thoughts? She also thought the CIA were after her - that had nothing to do with religion. I think again whether or not she was responsible that you are showing very little regard or respect for Sheila and her illness . Whatever the truth, she was a victim .
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She left a week earlier that he would have liked but she didn't want her first meeting with Christine to take place in a psych clinic. I have no idea WHEN their first meeting was so I'm prepared to think it MAY have been a rouse on Sheila's part to leave.
I think he is covered as far as responsibility because I think there was supposed to be a further referral and anyway I guess she was free to discontinue any treatment if she so wanted if she was not sectioned at the time.
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"Anyway Sheila would certainly have been reading more warped religious material. She massacred her whole family. Except Bamber. It's a surprise she didn't bring this material with her" Perhaps you can provide the source of Sheila's choice of reading material or a title.
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It just seems a huge factor of Sheila's alleged suicide/murder was religion. And of course the alleged supper conversation.
Yet she obviously didn't bring any religious books with her. Or did, but chose to find and use June's bible and not use her own book/s.
Anyway, things will become clearer when David provides my ten source requests.
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It just seems a huge factor of Sheila's alleged suicide/murder was religion. And of course the alleged supper conversation.
Yet she obviously didn't bring any religious books with her. Or did, but chose to find and use June's bible and not use her own book/s.
Anyway, things will become clearer when David provides my ten source requests.
No Adam you asked the questions - you find the sources .And as we have said many times before anything that is said regarding what went on in the house unless supported by direct evidence is purely supposition or assumption. Just because someone has an opinion and then you think you have proved it wrong does not mean that you are right.
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No Adam you asked the questions - you find the sources .And as we have said many times before anything that is said regarding what went on in the house unless supported by direct evidence is purely supposition or assumption. Just because someone has an opinion and then you think you have proved it wrong does not mean that you are right.
Oh no the questions I asked all brutally highlight Bamber's guilt, if cannot be answered. So must be comprehensively answered.
David made a stab but admitted he could not answer or guessed several answers. I'm sure he is looking for his sources now.
I've never seen a source that Sheila read the bible, or there were four bibles at WHF etc. But have been told this is the case. So look forward to the sources.
My post earlier today on this thread thanked everyone for their assistance.
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Oh no the questions I asked all brutally highlight Bamber's guilt, if cannot be answered. So must be comprehensively answered.
David made a stab but admitted he could not answer or guessed several answers. I'm sure he is looking for his sources now.
I've never seen a source that Sheila read the bible, or there were four bibles at WHF etc. But have been told this is the case. So look forward to the sources.
My post earlier today on this thread thanked everyone for their assistance.
I don't think so . :)
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I don't think so . :)
I wonder how Adam thinks it possible for anyone to give him satisfactory answers to questions whose ONLY answers -because there appear to be no KNOWN answers- are the ones he chooses to apply.
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"Would Sheila only decide to get the bible after killing four other people ?
Dont know :-\"
A good example. We don't know if she was reading the bible before with her mother . We don't know if she was responsible whether she was alive for a sort time or a long time after the murders?
A more important question why did two officers say the bible was not in the position photographed?
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"Would Sheila only decide to get the bible after killing four other people ?
Dont know :-\"
A good example. We don't know if she was reading the bible before with her mother . We don't know if she was responsible whether she was alive for a sort time or a long time after the murders?
A more important question why did two officers say the bible was not in the position photographed?
"Would Sheila only decide to get the bible after killing four other people"? A prime example of a question whose only answer is the one Adam CHOOSES to apply and given the nature of the beast it'll be the opposite of what anyone else gives.................IF anyone else bothers.
Re the position of the bible. It would carry more weight if the two officers actually SAID what position the bible had previously occupied.
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I don't think so . :)
He must be working on his detailed reconstruction of how Sheila committed the massacre.
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With a guilty Bamber it's easy to explain the bible.
He knew where it was.
He wanted to enhance the religious aspect of the frame.
Sheila didn't have any of her own religious books. Or he didn't bother checking. So used June's bible.
I believe it is likely he would check to see if Sheila had any religious books he could use. It would enhance the framing attempt.
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https://youtu.be/SH48WKZLTtc
The campaign team are suggesting the note inside the bible is a suicide note.
However they do not answer my questions on it.
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The police say the bible was left open at pages 656/657. The CT then say this cannot be verified.
They complain about alleged non disclosure, then when things are disclosed say it cannot be verified.
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I wonder who was supposed to read to read the alleged suicide note ? She had killed her immediate family, except Bamber.
CC maybe. But why leave a note for him but kill her father ?
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"Would Sheila only decide to get the bible after killing four other people"? A prime example of a question whose only answer is the one Adam CHOOSES to apply and given the nature of the beast it'll be the opposite of what anyone else gives.................IF anyone else bothers.
Re the position of the bible. It would carry more weight if the two officers actually SAID what position the bible had previously occupied.
they did I think - about 12" away at waist height .
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https://youtu.be/SH48WKZLTtc
The campaign team are suggesting the note inside the bible is a suicide note.
However they do not answer my questions on it.
that is because EP listed suicide note on one of their lists - but it could have been the coded note that has been on the forum loads of times I am sure you have seen it. Also there is a handwritten note seen in the bible but it is not known whose writing it is - it could just be junes bible class notes . So there you are I am being fair - but blame EP for lack of clarity NOT the CT .
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that is because EP listed suicide note on one of their lists - but it could have been the coded note that has been on the forum loads of times I am sure you have seen it. Also there is a handwritten note seen in the bible but it is not known whose writing it is - it could just be junes bible class notes . So there you are I am being fair - but blame EP for lack of clarity NOT the CT .
It COULD have been a question of making two and two make five. They found what they'd been conditioned to find-four murders and a suicide- so when the found the "suicide" holding a bible which appeared to contain a handwritten note -possibly because they were as ignorant of the bible as Adam appears to be- they assumed it was a suicide note as opposed to possible references of verses June may have intended to be part of her bible study class. It maybe worth noting that whilst it may have been listed as a suicide note, nothing of it's contents were ever revealed. Nothing was mentioned in the press and it wasn't bought up in court. Surely, a hand written suicide note, by Sheila, would have gone a long way to proving Jeremy was innocent?
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that is because EP listed suicide note on one of their lists - but it could have been the coded note that has been on the forum loads of times I am sure you have seen it. Also there is a handwritten note seen in the bible but it is not known whose writing it is - it could just be junes bible class notes . So there you are I am being fair - but blame EP for lack of clarity NOT the CT .
And in the same breath blame the CT for using that lack of clarity for their own propaganda purposes.
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I'd like to know how soon before the tragedy did June write her letter,to be opened on her death.
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It COULD have been a question of making two and two make five. They found what they'd been conditioned to find-four murders and a suicide- so when the found the "suicide" holding a bible which appeared to contain a handwritten note -possibly because they were as ignorant of the bible as Adam appears to be- they assumed it was a suicide note as opposed to possible references of verses June may have intended to be part of her bible study class. It maybe worth noting that whilst it may have been listed as a suicide note, nothing of it's contents were ever revealed. Nothing was mentioned in the press and it wasn't bought up in court. Surely, a hand written suicide note, by Sheila, would have gone a long way to proving Jeremy was innocent?
Carol Ann Lee was able to find out what was written on the note inside the bible - if she was able to find out, then I am sure it was no great secret. However, to maintain the notion of a suicide note (and I don't believe EP could have been referring to the letters and numbers note that make no sense (looks as though one of the twins wrote it anyway)), it helps to maintain the myth that Sheila killed herself. The note was in June's bible, so must have been written by her - EP wouldn't have known that at the time so wrongly thought it might be a suicide note because it was found next to Sheila.
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Carol Ann Lee was able to find out what was written on the note inside the bible - if she was able to find out, then I am sure it was no great secret. However, to maintain the notion of a suicide note (and I don't believe EP could have been referring to the letters and numbers note that make no sense (looks as though one of the twins wrote it anyway)), it helps to maintain the myth that Sheila killed herself. The note was in June's bible, so must have been written by her - EP wouldn't have known that at the time so wrongly thought it might be a suicide note because it was found next to Sheila.
When I first joined the forum the suicide note was accepted as fact.
I agree imo there was no suicide note, a p art from anything it doesn't make any sense that a psychotic and seriously disturbed Sheila would bother. In her head she would surely either believe she had killed hideous 'things' to save herself and boys or she was back in reality and too horrified at the carnage she found she or someone else had done.... just my thoughts.
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No I agree with the above - the coded note could just have been written by the boys and the note in the bible by June . However we don't know that for sure because there was no description - hence the REMOTE possibility there was one
But in the beginning I think a suicide note if it existed would have been copied and available . Then the police could have resisted the pressure from the family without any question.
Personally I think her diaries would have been more interesting.
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No I agree with the above - the coded note could just have been written by the boys and the note in the bible by June . However we don't know that for sure because there was no description - hence the REMOTE possibility there was one
But in the beginning I think a suicide note if it existed would have been copied and available . Then the police could have resisted the pressure from the family without any question.
Personally I think her diaries would have been more interesting.
100% agreed :)
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'Clearly seen protruding from the pages of the Bible in more than one photograph is a handwritten note, which overwhelmingly supports the notion of a murder-suicide. It is reasonable to suggest this could be a suicide note from Sheila'.
The OS believes it is a suicide note. However they also say there were 'conversations with Sheila inside WHF'.
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https://youtu.be/WOC7xxz_PQE
This is the only thing that has Sheila reading something religious. It certainly wasn't the bible.
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This thread has not been as productive as my other threads.Which us a pity as I thank everyone early on for clearing everything up.
One poster answered some of my questions in red, but did not include requested sources. Another poster who demands primary sources, told me to find the requested sources myself. Although the reason I was asking for the sources is because I have not found any.
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I have to conclude that -
Sheila did not read the bible.
She may have read more extreme religious books.
She may have brought other religious books to WHF. Bamber either not checking, or not knowing what book page to leave another book open on.
There was one bible at WHF, not four. Which makes sense.
Sheila may not have known where the bible was.
Sheila would not have stopped to use the bible while in a spontaneous rage, after killing four people and brutally beating one person.
Sheila would not know what to look for in the bible, pre suicide.
The blood underneath the bible was Sheila's.
The blood on and inside the bible was not Sheila's as her hands were clean. She would not have attempted to read the bible after the first shot, then washed her hands.
The note inside the bible was not a suicide note.
The bible was put next to Sheila as an obvious attempt to enhance the religious aspect of the frame. By Bamber.
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I have to conclude that -
Sheila did not read the bible.
She may have read more extreme religious books.
She may have brought other religious books to WHF. Bamber either not checking, or not knowing what book page to leave another book open on.
There was one bible at WHF, not four. Which makes sense.
Sheila may not have known where the bible was.
Sheila would not have stopped to use the bible while in a spontaneous rage, after killing four people and brutally beating one person.
Sheila would not know what to look for in the bible, pre suicide.
The blood underneath the bible was Sheila's.
The blood on and inside the bible was not Sheila's as her hands were clean. She would not have attempted to read the bible after the first shot, then washed her hands.
The note inside the bible was not a suicide note.
The bible was put next to Sheila as an obvious attempt to enhance the religious aspect of the frame. By Bamber.
well that just shows how wrong you can be .
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In AE's scribbled contemporaneous notes she'd had Sheila on the bed with the Bible on her chest and the rifle beside her.
How did she know ?
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Adam - I have to conclude you are one very lazy person - Or could I be wrong?. The information is out there - you are either not interested or can not be bothered which is it?
And what is YOUR source for your conclusion about Sheilas personal reading matter?
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Oooooh,there's mention of the black covered Bible which I last saw nearly 4 years ago. Thank goodness I wasn't dreaming.
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Thank you Jan. Good, there were 4 bibles. Which is a bit weird, as David said they are all the same.
Interesting that she said she had never seen Sheila with any of the bibles. This suggests she either had her own bible, or didn't read the bible at all.
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For the hundredth time,there were 5 Bibles in the farmhouse which June had placed in specified areas downstairs and upstairs.
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Thank you Jan. Good, there were 4 bibles. Which is a bit weird, as David said they are all the same.
Interesting that she said she had never seen Sheila with any of the bibles. This suggests she either had her own bible, or didn't read the bible at all.
You are joking ????
Do you even know about old testament and new testament???? Don't you know the different covers contain the same thing?
And did you see who wrote the statement? She did not live at the house?
Did you read Sheilas Doctors statements ? About how she found religion and how she saw evil ? Did you know she thought the CIA were after her?
I have to CONCLUDE that you are not interested in facts at all .
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You are joking ????
Do you even know about old testament and new testament???? Don't you know the different covers contain the same thing?
And did you see who wrote the statement? She did not live at the house?
Did you read Sheilas Doctors statements ? About how she found religion and how she saw evil ? Did you know she thought the CIA were after her?
I have to CONCLUDE that you are not interested in facts at all .
Jan will you calm down.
As said earlier in the thread, I know nothing about religion.
So David was wrong saying all bibles are the same.
I know Sheila had warped religious thoughts. She was supposed to have massacred her family partly because of this.
So the four bibles were different. Sheila then had to decide which of the four bibles were appropriate for her, pre massacre. And then find it. Thought she would have brought her own. Although Jean Boutell said she never saw her with one.
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Thank you Jan. Good, there were 4 bibles. Which is a bit weird, as David said they are all the same.
Interesting that she said she had never seen Sheila with any of the bibles. This suggests she either had her own bible, or didn't read the bible at all.
The same as in they hold the same contents!
Bibles have different designs and sizes but the contents within is the same.
(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/dos-biblias-10917465.jpg)
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I have to conclude that -
Sheila did not read the bible.
She may have read more extreme religious books.
She may have brought other religious books to WHF. Bamber either not checking, or not knowing what book page to leave another book open on.
There was one bible at WHF, not four. Which makes sense.
Sheila may not have known where the bible was.
Sheila would not have stopped to use the bible while in a spontaneous rage, after killing four people and brutally beating one person.
Sheila would not know what to look for in the bible, pre suicide.
The blood underneath the bible was Sheila's.
The blood on and inside the bible was not Sheila's as her hands were clean. She would not have attempted to read the bible after the first shot, then washed her hands.
The note inside the bible was not a suicide note.
The bible was put next to Sheila as an obvious attempt to enhance the religious aspect of the frame. By Bamber.
I believe it was Jane who said your arguments actually do Jeremy a favour. now I see why ;D
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Jan will you calm down.
As said earlier in the thread, I know nothing about religion.
So David was wrong saying all bibles are the same.
I know Sheila had warped religious thoughts. She was supposed to have massacred her family partly because of this.
So the four bibles were different. Sheila then had to decide which of the four bibles were appropriate for her, pre massacre. And then find it. Thought she would have brought her own. Although Jean Boutell said she never saw her with one.
I am calm , just amazed at your posts.
No you don't know - you assume.
The only things we know about her thoughts are from her doctor and we don't KNOW what happened on the night . They are only suggestions or possibilities . She could have been delusional - she could have been clinically depressed they are possibilities. How you can reach any conclusions about how her mind worked is beyond me.
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Thank you Jan. Good, there were 4 bibles. Which is a bit weird, as David said they are all the same.
Interesting that she said she had never seen Sheila with any of the bibles. This suggests she either had her own bible, or didn't read the bible at all.
Don't you think you should now update your list of conclusions and reduce it to facts? That should not take long.
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I believe it was Jane who said your arguments actually do Jeremy a favour. now I see why ;D
Well Jane J supported Bamber for 29 years. And fiercely defended him on here when I joined, for several months. The forum was 90% pro Bamber with most people agreeing with Mikes posts.
She then became a guilter, prior to Scipio joining. Eventually saying she had to spend too much time defending Bamber. A bit like you are always doing. Often by putting up silly pictures of people laughing.
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Well Jane J supported Bamber for 29 years. And fiercely defended him on here when I joined, for several months. The forum was 90% pro Bamber with most people agreeing with Mikes posts.
She then became a guilter, prior to Scipio joining. Eventually saying she had to spend too much time defending Bamber. A bit like you are always doing. Often by putting up silly pictures of people laughing.
People are entitled to their opinion Adam and I have to admit, I like the pictures that David posts - they make me laugh. Where's your sense of humour?
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I am calm , just amazed at your posts.
No you don't know - you assume.
The only things we know about her thoughts are from her doctor and we don't KNOW what happened on the night . They are only suggestions or possibilities . She could have been delusional - she could have been clinically depressed they are possibilities. How you can reach any conclusions about how her mind worked is beyond me.
Well the only thing we know about her thoughts, is what the doctor said. This thread is about the bible.
None of her warped thoughts about her children would have come from the bible. There is no evidence she read the bible and certainly nothing to suggest she would have looked for it prior to killing herself.
So my list above is assuming. What else can anyone do ?
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Well the only thing we know about her thoughts, is what the doctor said. This thread is about the bible.
None of her warped thoughts about her children would have come from the bible. There is no evidence she read the bible and certainly nothing to suggest she would have looked for it prior to killing herself.
So my list above is assuming. What else can anyone do ?
Not assume maybe? :-\
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Well the only thing we know about her thoughts, is what the doctor said. This thread is about the bible.
None of her warped thoughts about her children would have come from the bible. There is no evidence she read the bible and certainly nothing to suggest she would have looked for it prior to killing herself.
So my list above is assuming. What else can anyone do ?
It is very common for people suffering from P.S. to have religious, fire and brimstone type delusions and hallucinations. She had been around religious people all her life, no doubt had Religious Instruction at school, that would be enough for her delusions, hallucinations etc. to manifest that way. There is no clear reason why so many people with P.S. have such delusions. It may have had nothing to do with June's religious fervour or it may have been the cause. :-\
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As a child,Sheila would have June reading passages from the Bible as opposed to bedtime stories and this practice gave Sheila nightmares,etc and it generally set the scene for the horrors of the " devil " which would come to dominate her life.
June was totally unwell !
This comes from Claire Powell's book.
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It is very common for people suffering from P.S. to have religious, fire and brimstone type delusions and hallucinations. She had been around religious people all her life, no doubt had Religious Instruction at school, that would be enough for her delusions, hallucinations etc. to manifest that way. There is no clear reason why so many people with P.S. have such delusions. It may have had nothing to do with June's religious fervour or it may have been the cause. :-\
I can say that when my cousin started an episode, it was usually with some kind of religious tirade. Being delusional, voices in ones head could easily be attributed to some supernatural being.
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I found this when I was working at a mental hospital. Some of the women were " creepy " when they called out to Biblical characters. Septimus was one woman's " favourite " as she'd said he used to appear when she called him. The Seventh Sign.
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I can say that when my cousin started an episode, it was usually with some kind of religious tirade. Being delusional, voices in ones head could easily be attributed to some supernatural being.
I guess it makes sense that if people hear or see things that aren't visible, they will assume a religious element.
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I guess it makes sense that if people hear or see things that aren't visible, they will assume a religious element.
Voices in the head, especially when they are tellng you to do things, are quite often linked to the Devil and God, good and evil. Whether rightly or wrongly. Does make you wonder how many of the people suffering from such would state it is the devil/God telling them to do such things if it wasn't such a wide known diagnosis.
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Voices in the head, especially when they are tellng you to do things, are quite often linked to the Devil and God, good and evil. Whether rightly or wrongly. Does make you wonder how many of the people suffering from such would state it is the devil/God telling them to do such things if it wasn't such a wide known diagnosis.
In my brothers case, there wasn't a religious element at all. I guess everyone is different.
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As a child,Sheila would have June reading passages from the Bible as opposed to bedtime stories and this practice gave Sheila nightmares,etc and it generally set the scene for the horrors of the " devil " which would come to dominate her life.
June was totally unwell !
This comes from Claire Powell's book.
I won't ask how you know. You got it from CP. I WILL ask, though, from where CP got her information. She wasn't there during Sheila's childhood and I can't imagine that ANY member of the family would be so disrespectful of June's memory to pass on erroneous information about her.
Just a little add on. I actually LOVED bible stories when I was a child.
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Voices in the head, especially when they are tellng you to do things, are quite often linked to the Devil and God, good and evil. Whether rightly or wrongly. Does make you wonder how many of the people suffering from such would state it is the devil/God telling them to do such things if it wasn't such a wide known diagnosis.
Or might it simply be our conscience having a did at us?
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Or might it simply be our conscience having a did at us?
Quite likely.
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I won't ask how you know. You got it from CP. I WILL ask, though, from where CP got her information. She wasn't there during Sheila's childhood and I can't imagine that ANY member of the family would be so disrespectful of June's memory to pass on erroneous information about her.
Just a little add on.
I actually LOVED bible stories when I was a child.
--------------not about the devil though,which Sheila had to endure.
I too enjoyed Divinity at school and at Sunday school and also at a Mission church. I have a Bible and also know off by heart all the Hymns,but I wouldn't dream of encouraging/forcing others to prefer the teachings from a Bible to a good, children's story book .Sheila was spooked as a youngster because she was so impressionable,more so than most I expect.
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I won't ask how you know. You got it from CP. I WILL ask, though, from where CP got her information. She wasn't there during Sheila's childhood and I can't imagine that ANY member of the family would be so disrespectful of June's memory to pass on erroneous information about her.
Just a little add on. I actually LOVED bible stories when I was a child.
I hope you do ask where CP's information came from----------get back to me on it.
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I hope you do ask where CP's information came from----------get back to me on it.
My own powers of reasoning suggest that which can be neither proved nor denied is put out there under the heading of literary licence.
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My own powers of reasoning suggest that which can be neither proved nor denied is put out there under the heading of literary licence.
Meaning that like the press authors can elaborate and fabricate to their hearts content until such time that someone comes down on them like a ton of bricks-----------I hope.
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Meaning that like the press authors can elaborate and fabricate to their hearts content until such time that someone comes down on them like a ton of bricks-----------I hope.
If what they say can't be proved or denied, what you suggest may be easier said that done, but what I don't understand, Lookout, is that we had a conversation about this only the other day, during which you agreed that there was no truth in the implication that Sheila was burgling country houses, ergo, any stories about the dynamic between family members when Sheila was a child must be treated with the same scepticism.
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If what they say can't be proved or denied, what you suggest may be easier said that done, but what I don't understand, Lookout, is that we had a conversation about this only the other day, during which you agreed that there was no truth in the implication that Sheila was burgling country houses, ergo, any stories about the dynamic between family members when Sheila was a child must be treated with the same scepticism.
The same goes for the police investigation-------------to be treated with scepticism.
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The same goes for the police investigation-------------to be treated with scepticism.
But the police aren't employing sensationalism to sell books.
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But the police aren't employing sensationalism to sell books.
Really ? How do you think reporters get their info after a tragedy,etc ? And so it goes on from there.
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Many ex. or retired police officers have turned to writing books--------about what they THINK they know.
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Many ex. or retired police officers have turned to writing books--------about what they THINK they know.
I reiterate, Lookout. WHOMSOEVER the author. If what they choose to write can neither be proved nor denied they can do it safely. It's entirely up to the gullibility of the reader whether or not they choose to believe it.
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that is one good thing about the book by CAL - she lists all her sources . However some are still a bit fuzzy in their memory so to speak .
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that is one good thing about the book by CAL - she lists all her sources . However some are still a bit fuzzy in their memory so to speak .
Weeell, after 30 years...................
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And how old is CAL ? Not in her dotage I wouldn't think. Memory ? Fuzzy ?
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And how old is CAL ? Not in her dotage I wouldn't think. Memory ? Fuzzy ?
I imagine we're talking about her sources' memories.
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I imagine we're talking about her sources' memories.
Whatever her sources,I imagine that if she's studied the case in-depth and in order to get the proper information,then the sources of her information shouldn't be that far from her mind to write as near as dammit,an accurate recollection.
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Whatever her sources,I imagine that if she's studied the case in-depth and in order to get the proper information,then the sources of her information shouldn't be that far from her mind to write as near as dammit,an accurate recollection.
Surely, when authors aren't at the SOC, they must rely on those who were, ie their SOURCE. If they write OTHER that what's been told them their source would have every right to deny having said it.
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Surely, when authors aren't at the SOC, they must rely on those who were, ie their SOURCE. If they write OTHER that what's been told them their source would have every
right to deny having said it.------------There'll be a lot of that in the coming months.
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right to deny having said it.------------There'll be a lot of that in the coming months.
YAWWN. NOT holding my breath. Done it TOOOO many times.
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YAWWN. NOT holding my breath. Done it TOOOO many times.
Oh I'd breathe easy if I were you,there's a lot riding on this for it not to be a success.
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Oh I'd breathe easy if I were you,there's a lot riding on this for it not to be a success.
Could not the same have been said of all the other attempts?
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Could not the same have been said of all the other attempts?
They were before further info had been gathered,besides one attempt having been scuppered.
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They were before further info had been gathered,besides one attempt having been scuppered.
I seem to recall that in every previous attempt it was claimed they had "new info."
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I seem to recall that in every previous attempt it was claimed they had "new info."
New brooms this time as well as ultra-new info,such as that which had been inadvertantly slipped in amongst the docs. which had been requested by JB from EP.
One man on his own,namely,Simon McKay couldn't possibly have achieved what the numbers presently can,although he did well. There's always safety in numbers 4th time around,is it ?
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New brooms this time as well as ultra-new info,such as that which had been inadvertantly slipped in amongst the docs. which had been requested by JB from EP.
One man on his own,namely,Simon McKay couldn't possibly have achieved what the numbers presently can,although he did well. There's always safety in numbers 4th time around,is it ?
And hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
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And hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Not necessarily. Hope is,or can be a powerful word,especially to those who are suffering illness,etc. They live in hope of a cure or some respite.
Not to have hope is sad.
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Not necessarily. Hope is,or can be a powerful word,especially to those who are suffering illness,etc. They live in hope of a cure or some respite.
Not to have hope is sad.
Very true, Lookout.
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Whatever her sources,I imagine that if she's studied the case in-depth and in order to get the proper information,then the sources of her information shouldn't be that far from her mind to write as near as dammit,an accurate recollection.
I was talking about Bews for example he changes his mind like his socks. He is only one .
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I was talking about Bews for example he changes his mind like his socks. He is only one .
That's bad news when you're a cop.
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I thought that is what notebooks are for - in fact they are the Original source ;D So I don't think it is right that relevant bits of information can be added or taken away later .
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I thought that is what notebooks are for - in fact they are the Original source ;D So I don't think it is right that relevant bits of information can be added or taken away later .
I would imagine that most of the time, it's not convenient to stand there taking notes and most write events up later when it is convenient.
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I would imagine that most of the time, it's not convenient to stand there taking notes and most write events up later when it is convenient.
Yes I am aware of that but they would be written up ASAP . Where as a lot of the statements were not written until Sept. I would just like to compare them with the statements
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No excuse for original notebooks not to have been given. Why rewrite and rewrite logs etc what was the purpose of that?
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That wasn't on at all. Everything should be entered as it happened and how the scene was found. Without the need for alterations etc,or embellishments. Dated and timed. No copies no editing.
This was a murder scene,not a practice-----------it was for real.
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There was no evidence SC was religious until maybe the last few weeks of her life. She never attended bible classes or even church on a regular basis. CC said SC showed no interest in religion during their marriage.
Source, another forum.
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There was no evidence SC was religious until maybe the last few weeks of her life. She never attended bible classes or even church on a regular basis. CC said SC showed no interest in religion during their marriage.
Source, another forum.
Except that in the letter she wrote Ann from St Andrew's she said that she'd found God. It maybe that she also said that she felt he had work for her to do/she wanted to do God's work.
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If -
There was no evidence Sheila was religious.
She never attended bible classes or church.
Had no interest in religion during her marriage.
It is very surprising the bible was found next to her.
But wait, it must have been Sheila that put if there. The OS says the note inside was a suicide note.
Then again, the OS also says Sheila was having a chat with the police outside.
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If -
There was no evidence Sheila was religious.
She never attended bible classes or church.
Had no interest in religion during her marriage.
It is very surprising the bible was found next to her.
But wait, it must have been Sheila that put if there. The OS says the note inside was a suicide note.
Then again, the OS also says Sheila was having a chat with the police outside.
Her Doctor would disagree with you. She was a diagnosed schizophrenic.
Strange religious beliefs is a symptom of Schizophrenia
"Patients with schizophrenia also exhibit religious delusions and hallucinations. Further, there is some evidence to suggest that religion influences the level of psychopathology. Religion and religious practices also influence social integration, risk of suicide attempts, and substance use."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4031576/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4031576/)"
She believed her children were possessed by Satan! you don't often hear that from an atheist now do you?
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Her Doctor would disagree with you. She was a diagnosed schizophrenic.
Strange religious beliefs is a symptom of Schizophrenia
"Patients with schizophrenia also exhibit religious delusions and hallucinations. Further, there is some evidence to suggest that religion influences the level of psychopathology. Religion and religious practices also influence social integration, risk of suicide attempts, and substance use."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4031576/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4031576/)"
She believed her children were possessed by Satan! you don't often hear that from an atheist now do you?
None of that relates to the bible.
It was a classic framing plant by Bamber. Trying to incorporate a religious element into Sheila's decision to massacre her family. And herself.
Sheila doing what she did because of an alleged fostering conversation was never going to be enough. The judge saying so in his summing up. The two things combined were never enough either.
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None of that relates to the bible.
It was a classic framing plant by Bamber. Trying to incorporate a religious element into Sheila's decision to massacre her family. And herself.
Sheila doing what she did because of an alleged fostering conversation was never going to be enough. The judge saying so in his summing up. The two things combined were never enough either.
How does faith in Christianity and belief in the Devil not relate to the bible? ???
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If -
There was no evidence Sheila was religious.
She never attended bible classes or church.
Had no interest in religion during her marriage.
It is very surprising the bible was found next to her.
But wait, it must have been Sheila that put if there. The OS says the note inside was a suicide note.
Then again, the OS also says Sheila was having a chat with the police outside.
There is the letter she wrote Ann. Saying one has found God are hardly the words of an atheist.
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I wonder if there was a Bible where Sheila had lived,particularly when she was with Colin ? I very much doubt it.
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Sheila's words that she " had found God " was to appease her mother in trying to build bridges. Poor girl.
How sad that someone was forced to live with two personalities ! The Sheila who'd enjoyed life with her friends and family,then had to revert to lectures on morals,praying and the skewed world of her mother's religious rantings.
Enough to send anyone over the edge. To say nothing of how it must have affected Neville having to deal with two entirely different personalities.
I DON'T think Sheila was particularly religious. Only that she HAD to be when visiting WHF.
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Sheila's words that she " had found God " was to appease her mother in trying to build bridges. Poor girl.
How sad that someone was forced to live with two personalities ! The Sheila who'd enjoyed life with her friends and family,then had to revert to lectures on morals,praying and the skewed world of her mother's religious rantings.
Enough to send anyone over the edge. To say nothing of how it must have affected Neville having to deal with two entirely different personalities.
I DON'T think Sheila was particularly religious. Only that she HAD to be when visiting WHF.
I believe it to be entirely wrong to deny or disallow anyone's feelings. If Sheila said that she'd found God -for whatEVER reason- who are we to say otherwise? It's just possible that "finding God" MAY have been responsible for her silence. Perhaps it was to do with a quiet inner peace? Please note that I'm NOT giving this possible explanation as fact. I just feel it has as much value as imminent psychosis.
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I believe it to be entirely wrong to deny or disallow anyone's feelings. If Sheila said that she'd found God -for whatEVER reason- who are we to say otherwise? It's just possible that "finding God" MAY have been responsible for her silence. Perhaps it was to do with a quiet inner peace? Please note that I'm NOT giving this possible explanation as fact. I just feel it has as much value as imminent psychosis.
Sorry,but I'm sticking with my own opinions on Sheila, who'd been manipulated by her mother regarding the Bible. As a child,Sheila was impressionable,as most children are,and because she'd had it drummed into her on the " good and evil " and the word of the Bible, didn't mean that she too had religion on her mind. This is where the split personality came in. Sheila had been an entirely different person at WHF than in the company of her closest friends/family. Religion drove the poor girl so mad that it became at the forefront of her life and took over her thoughts. Sheila herself WASN'T religious,she had been driven that way and she hadn't been strong enough to tell her mother that enough was enough.That had been left to Colin. No wonder he dreaded Sheila as did the twins,visiting WHF. God help them.
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I believe it to be entirely wrong to deny or disallow anyone's feelings. If Sheila said that she'd found God -for whatEVER reason- who are we to say otherwise? It's just possible that "finding God" MAY have been responsible for her silence. Perhaps it was to do with a quiet inner peace? Please note that I'm NOT giving this possible explanation as fact. I just feel it has as much value as imminent psychosis.
If Sheila wanted to appease her mother, she would have written the letter to her mother.
Also http://psychologyinfo.com/schizophrenia/ - schizophrenia is NOT 'a split personality'
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Sorry,but I'm sticking with my own opinions on Sheila, who'd been manipulated by her mother regarding the Bible. As a child,Sheila was impressionable,as most children are,and because she'd had it drummed into her on the " good and evil " and the word of the Bible, didn't mean that she too had religion on her mind. This is where the split personality came in. Sheila had been an entirely different person at WHF than in the company of her closest friends/family. Religion drove the poor girl so mad that it became at the forefront of her life and took over her thoughts. Sheila herself WASN'T religious,she had been driven that way and she hadn't been strong enough to tell her mother that enough was enough.That had been left to Colin. No wonder he dreaded Sheila as did the twins,visiting WHF. God help them.
I'm sure you are, but your opinion is no more FACTUAL than is mine. The difference is that you're presenting YOUR opinion as fact whereas I'm offering a possibility. Just for the record, whilst those with schizophrenia hear voices, I don't believe them to have dual personalities. Should that be the case, MANY of us who felt the need to hide who we were from our parents would all; be suffering the same thing.
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If Sheila wanted to appease her mother, she would have written the letter to her mother.
Also http://psychologyinfo.com/schizophrenia/ - schizophrenia is NOT 'a split personality'
The same as a split personality ( which I reckon that Sheila had ) isn't always schizophrenia.
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I'm sure you are, but your opinion is no more FACTUAL than is mine. The difference is that you're presenting YOUR opinion as fact whereas I'm offering a possibility. Just for the record, whilst those with schizophrenia hear voices, I don't believe them to have dual personalities. Should that be the case,
MANY of us who felt the need to hide who we were from our parents would all; be suffering the same thing.
-------------not necessarily.The mind is a very complex thing between individuals.
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The same as a split personality ( which I reckon that Sheila had ) isn't always schizophrenia.
Those with split personalities almost NEVER have control over when their alter ego emerges. To date, NO ONE has come forward to suggest this of Sheila.
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-------------not necessarily.The mind is a very complex thing between individuals.
How come, then, that "not necessarily" can apply to all who have this experience, OTHER than Sheila?
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Because a person " hears voices " doesn't mean that they have schizophrenia either. Any sort of a trauma can cause such. A bereavement for instance where the bereaved person hears the voice of the one who's deceased. Lack of sleep is another cause.
When the body is at its lowest ebb as in depression,the mind can play tricks and imagination runs rife.
I've never fully believed that Sheila suffered schizophrenia and have always believed/felt that she was over-medicated.
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Lord knows,Sheila had enough trauma's in her life,beginning not long after she was born.
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Because a person " hears voices " doesn't mean that they have schizophrenia either. Any sort of a trauma can cause such. A bereavement for instance where the bereaved person hears the voice of the one who's deceased. Lack of sleep is another cause.
When the body is at its lowest ebb as in depression,the mind can play tricks and imagination runs rife.
I've never fully believed that Sheila suffered schizophrenia and have always believed/felt that she was over-medicated.
And I don't believe you even consider that, whilst she HAD been mentally ill, the medication she was on MAY have been keeping her relatively stable, and she was, at that time, simply depressed. It occurs to me that to keep Sheila responsible for what occurred, it's NECESSARY for her to be mentally ill, or at least, ill with something, because the one thing she CAN'T be allowed to be is well.
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There is the letter she wrote Ann. Saying one has found God are hardly the words of an atheist.
I don't know why Adam is trying to downplay Sheila's religious beliefs in order to back up the idea the bible was planted was Jeremy. Since he had already established by his genius forensic observations that Sheila could not have found the bible in a house that big ;)
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And I don't believe you even consider that, whilst she HAD been mentally ill, the medication she was on MAY have been keeping her relatively stable, and she was, at that time, simply depressed. It occurs to me that to keep Sheila responsible for what occurred, it's NECESSARY for her to be mentally ill, or at least, ill with something, because the one thing she CAN'T be allowed to be is well.
You sound like her mother was when June had told Sheila while she was recuperating at WHF, that " she didn't know what it was like to be ill " ( CP's book ). Probably because June was doing all the fetching and carrying for someone less than half her age while Sheila sat back doing nothing. Even less as time went on as what happens when someone is in the depths of depression.
Neither women understood each other,and it would have seemed didn't want to except latterly for Sheila when she'd said that she'd found God. Other than that Sheila was no Bible basher.
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Those with split personalities almost NEVER have control over when their alter ego emerges. To date, NO ONE has come forward to suggest this of Sheila.
I think we're referring to multiple personality syndrome for which there is only anecdotal evidence and certainly ZERO evidence of Sheila suffering from it. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I think we're referring to multiple personality syndrome for which there is only anecdotal evidence and certainly ZERO evidence of Sheila suffering from it. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think she has been diagnosed with almost every mental illness over the years.
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I don't know why Adam is trying to downplay Sheila's religious beliefs in order to back up the idea the bible was planted was Jeremy. Since he had already established by his genius forensic observations that Sheila could not have found the bible in a house that big ;)
Well my question on page one was 'did Sheila know where the bible was' ?
There was a strong possibility she did not.
In her psychotic rage, shooting four people in the head, and smashing Neville's head in, there was also a strong possibility she wouldn't remember where it was. Or not even bother to think about using it.
But of course she had a read, before putting the bible onto her own blood. Before shooting herself. Twice.
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Well my question on page one was 'did Sheila know where the bible was' ?
There was a strong possibility she did not.
In her psychotic rage, shooting four people in the head, and smashing Neville's head in, there was also a strong possibility she wouldn't remember where it was. Or not even bother to think about using it.
But of course she had a read, before putting the bible onto her own blood. Before shooting herself. Twice.
Of course she did - it used to be her home and as you well know there were 4 bibles.And two officers said when they saw the body the bible was not in that position - so who knows.
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Well my question on page one was 'did Sheila know where the bible was' ?
There was a strong possibility she did not.
Based on what evidence? (your opinions do not count as evidence)
In her psychotic rage, shooting four people in the head, and smashing Neville's head in, there was also a strong possibility she wouldn't remember where it was. Or not even bother to think about using it.
But of course she had a read, before putting the bible onto her own blood. Before shooting herself. Twice.
Again please show evidence
Its never been proven who's blood it was on the bible
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I don't need to give evidence to back up opinions. Just as you didn't give any sources when responding to some of my questions in red ink, on page one. Apart from a long extract from the bible, which apparently was the page Sheila had the bible on.
However when I state facts I always give a source upon request.
It seems that you are not going to give the promised detailed account of how Sheila committee the massacre. As you can't. Which is a shame. But feel free to prove me wrong, with the source.
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It seems Bamber's supporters are more interested in trying to discredit the mountain of evidence against him, rather than showing how Sheila is guilty.
That is fair enough, but just say he's guilty but should be released as the evidence is flawed. Rather than he's innocent.
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You sound like her mother was when June had told Sheila while she was recuperating at WHF, that " she didn't know what it was like to be ill " ( CP's book ). Probably because June was doing all the fetching and carrying for someone less than half her age while Sheila sat back doing nothing. Even less as time went on as what happens when someone is in the depths of depression.
Neither women understood each other,and it would have seemed didn't want to except latterly for Sheila when she'd said that she'd found God. Other than that Sheila was no Bible basher.
Here you go again. Quoting CP as being the definitive truth.
A) CP wasn't there
B) The words don't sound anything like the June who's been described
C) HAD June been the sort of mother who used those words, she'd have made certain they weren't witnessed.
I don't know what point you're trying to make by saying I sound like June -I'm certainly not denying that Sheila was ill. Depression is a serious and debilitating illness- who certainly wasn't denying her illness when she was willing to pay for her private care.
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Well my question on page one was 'did Sheila know where the bible was' ?
There was a strong possibility she did not.
In her psychotic rage, shooting four people in the head, and smashing Neville's head in, there was also a strong possibility she wouldn't remember where it was. Or not even bother to think about using it.
But of course she had a read, before putting the bible onto her own blood. Before shooting herself. Twice.
Sheila WOULD have known where 5 Bibles were placed within the farmhouse,she'd lived there and would have found one in her sleep,but I very much doubt that she'd have been looking for one. If anyone,it would have been June who'd had one to hand right by her bed.
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Sheila WOULD have known where 5 Bibles were placed within the farmhouse,she'd lived there and would have found one in her sleep,but I very much doubt that she'd have been looking for one. If anyone,it would have been June wh o'd had one to hand right by her bed.
I agree Lookout, it would be surprising to me if June didn't have a bible by her bed and it would be far more likely in my mind that it would be June who would have grabbed the bible and maybe dropped it close to where it was found but that prompts many more questions we don't have the answer for about the blood on the carpet where Sheila was found :-\
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I agree Lookout, it would be surprising to me if June didn't have a bible by her bed and it would be far more likely in my mind that it would be June who would have grabbed the bible and maybe dropped it close to where it was found but that prompts many more questions we don't have the answer for about the blood on the carpet where Sheila was found :-\
Yes indeed Maggie.
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Another question about the bible is the campaign team are saying Sheila was downstairs in the kitchen when the police entered WHF. Although the blood line evidence from her neck disputes this.
However the bible was upstairs, covered in blood and on Sheila's carpet blood.
It is clear that Sheila would apparently read the bible prior to committing suicide. So why go downstairs without the rifle after the first shot?
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One thing is for sure, people cannot claim Sheila shot herself first in the kitchen.
The bible was open, covered in blood and on top of Sheila's carpet blood. The bible was upstairs.
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3. 'At some point, Sheila recovers consciousness, and leaving the kitchen and through the main hallway she ascends the main staircase to the master bedroom and shoots herself with the rifle which WPC Jeapes and PC Brown had seen leaning against the window'.
This is from the OS. They are not saying Sheila shot herself in the kitchen. This would be unwise as there were no reports of a rifle being seen in the kitchen.
So what they are claiming is Sheila got and read the bible (in the dark) just before shooting herself upstairs.
When the first shot didn't kill her, rather than fire the second shot, she decided to go downstairs. Why ? No one knows.
When the police entered WHF, Sheila then decided to go back upstairs to shoot herself. Why ? No one knows.
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Sheila MAY have shot herself just the once !
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Sheila MAY have shot herself just the once !
So who shot her a second time Lookout? June? So who shot June between the eyes and THEN placed the rifle on Sheila's body? ;D ;D ;D ;D ::)
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So who shot her a second time Lookout? June? So who shot June between the eyes and THEN placed the rifle on Sheila's body? ;D ;D ;D ;D ::)
Sheila shot herself the second time after she'd shot her mother between the eyes,as at that point June had been propped up sitting against the door before sliding down flat on the floor.
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Sheila shot herself the second time after she'd shot her mother between the eyes,as at that point June had been propped up sitting against the door before sliding down flat on the floor.
Interesting. With a shattered spine after she's shot herself, she managed to lift the rifle and aim it accurately between he mother's eyes, then with equal accuracy managed to shoot herself dead. One has to wonder, with that degree of accuracy, why she couldn't have managed it the first time.
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Interesting. With a shattered spine after she's shot herself, she managed to lift the rifle and aim it accurately between he mother's eyes, then with equal accuracy managed to shoot herself dead. One has to wonder, with that degree of accuracy, why she couldn't have managed it the first time.
Mother and daughter were only a couple of yards away from each other,if that and finally facing each other while sitting on the floor,it's not impossible that after the first shot of Sheila's,for her to rise up and shoot her mother between the eyes before aiming the rifle towards herself for the final shot.
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Mother and daughter were only a couple of yards away from each other,if that and finally facing each other while sitting on the floor,it's not impossible that after the first shot of Sheila's,for her to rise up and shoot her mother between the eyes before aiming the rifle towards herself for the final shot.
Even though Vanezis says he NOW believe, that she never moved after the first shot. I know that's not what he initially said, however, he IS entitled to rethink and re-evaluate his thinking.
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Mother and daughter were only a couple of yards away from each other,if that and finally facing each other while sitting on the floor,it's not impossible that after the first shot of Sheila's,for her to rise up and shoot her mother between the eyes before aiming the rifle towards herself for the final shot.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Even though Vanezis says he NOW believe, that she never moved after the first shot. I know that's not what he initially said, however, he IS entitled to rethink and re-evaluate his thinking.
If Sheila had already been sitting when the first shot was delivered,she'd hardly have moved far,nor much,in order to shoot her mother between the eyes. In fact any movement was negligable so far as her first injury was concerned,all she had to do was aim.
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If Sheila had already been sitting when the first shot was delivered,she'd hardly have moved far,nor much,in order to shoot her mother between the eyes. In fact any movement was negligable so far as her first injury was concerned,all she had to do was aim.
If Sheila was sitting WHERE?!!!! June started off from the other side of the bed. She'd have needed to be close, ie, got round to Sheila's side of the bed with shot legs PLUS other gun injuries. OK, MAYBE. But she sure as HELL didn't make it back to the door where she was found when the final shot was placed.
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If Sheila was sitting WHERE?!!!! June started off from the other side of the bed. She'd have needed to be close, ie, got round to Sheila's side of the bed with shot legs PLUS other gun injuries. OK, MAYBE. But she sure as HELL didn't make it back to the door where she was found when the final shot was placed.
Can you account for the drips of blood around the area where Sheila was and also those found at the window area of the " sewing room " ? Injured or not,June was still able to wander even though it seemed that Sheila hadn't/couldn't.
Sheila would have been sitting propped up with her back against the bedside cabinet,while June would only have been a yard away sitting with her back to the bedroom door which leads to downstairs.
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Can you account for the drips of blood around the area where Sheila was and also those found at the window area of the " sewing room " ? Injured or not,June was still able to wander even though it seemed that Sheila hadn't/couldn't.
Sheila would have been sitting propped up with her back against the bedside cabinet,while June would only have been a yard away sitting with her back to the bedroom door which leads to downstairs.
So a seated and wounded Sheila manages to fire a shot between her mothers eyes as she is seated diagonally opposite her. Hmm. Remembering that a double bed is between them, are you suggesting that Sheila managed to stand and walk to the point where she had June in her sights OR perhaps she took the shot by crawling under the bed and aiming from there. Even allowing for the fact that I'm dicalculea, I KNOW that a double bed is longer and wider than one yard and the HAS to have been at least the width of the bed between them when the last shot was taken because A) June couldn't have moved anywhere when she was dead and B ) Vanezis says Sheila didn't move after her first wound.
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So a seated and wounded Sheila manages to fire a shot between her mothers eyes as she is seated diagonally opposite her. Hmm. Remembering that a double bed is between them, are you suggesting that Sheila managed to stand and walk to the point where she had June in her sights OR perhaps she took the shot by crawling under the bed and aiming from there. Even allowing for the fact that I'm dicalculea, I KNOW that a double bed is longer and wider than one yard and the HAS to have been at least the width of the bed between them when the last shot was taken because A) June couldn't have moved anywhere when she was dead and B ) Vanezis says Sheila didn't move after her first wound.
Ha, ha! was just going to post that the bed was between them - good post Jane :)
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Two more questions to add to the 21 from my thread post -
According to supporters, Sheila had to have read the bible while the police were outside WHF. Could Sheila read the bible in the dark ?
According to supporters, Sheila may well have written a suicide note after the police arrived. The massacre would have taken up most of her 22 minutes. Could Sheila write in the dark ?
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Two more questions to add to the 21 from my thread post -
According to supporters, Sheila had to have read the bible while the police were outside WHF. Could Sheila read the bible in the dark ?
According to supporters, Sheila may well have written a suicide note after the police arrived. The massacre would have taken up most of her 22 minutes. Could Sheila write in the dark ?
To be fair Adam, I don't recall anyone making a fuss about Sheila reading the bible OR that she wrote a suicide note?
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https://youtu.be/SH48WKZLTtc
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http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible
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Well there are 14 threads on the bible. Created by a variety of posters.
There has also been five threads on the suicide note. None started by me.
This thread has also got 13 pages of a response.
So not sure how you can claim no one has made a fuss about either.
The bible is a big thing as it highlights certain guilt. The suicide note is just an optimistic post trial claim by Bamber.
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Well there are 14 threads on the bible. Created by a variety of posters.
There has also been five threads on the suicide note. None started by me.
This thread has also got 13 pages of a response.
So not sure how you can claim no one has made a fuss about either.
The bible is a big thing as it highlights certain guilt. The suicide note is just an optimistic post trial claim by Bamber.
Just because it has been discussed in the past - doesn't mean all supporters have it locked into their own theories. It might help if you added words like 'SOME' supporters instead of lumping people ALL under the one banner.
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Just because it has been discussed in the past - doesn't mean all supporters have it locked into their own theories. It might help if you added words like 'SOME' supporters instead of lumping people ALL under the one banner.
All supporters have to believe the bible was fetched and read by Sheila. And my 21 questions (now 23) must be adequately answered ( which they haven't). Otherwise the bible was a plant.
Supporters have the option of going along with the suicide note allegation. Or not.
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All supporters have to believe the bible was fetched and read by Sheila. And my 21 questions (now 23) must be adequately answered ( which they haven't). Otherwise the bible was a plant.
Supporters have the option of going along with the suicide note allegation. Or not.
No they don't, when I was a supporter, I didn't think Sheila had sat reading the bible and didn't believe there was a suicide note.
When I worked off-shore, I used to keep a bible in my rucksack because I don't like flying. Never read it though. Sheila 'could' have simply held it for comfort. This could be true whether she or Jeremy were the shooter.
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No they don't, when I was a supporter, I didn't think Sheila had sat reading the bible and didn't believe there was a suicide note.
When I worked off-shore, I used to keep a bible in my rucksack because I don't like flying. Never read it though. Sheila 'could' have simply held it for comfort. This could be true whether she or Jeremy were the shooter.
Held it for comfort ? But other posters have said it just fell next to Sheila.
If she didn't read it, bit of a coincidence she fetched it, and that it was on a page which posters David and Sherlock have said is the page people read prior to suicides. And covered in blood.
Sheila could have been holding the bible if Bamber was the killer ? Did he let her go and get it before shooting her ?
As I said, the suicide note is optional. Supporters are entitled to believe Bamber and the OS are being ridiculous again.
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Held it for comfort ? But other posters have said it just fell next to Sheila.
If she didn't read it, bit of a coincidence she fetched it, and that it was on a page which posters David and Sherlock have said is the page people read prior to suicides. And covered in blood.
Sheila could have been holding the bible if Bamber was the killer ? Did he let her go and get it before shooting her ?
As I said, the suicide note is optional. Supporters are entitled to believe Bamber and the OS are being ridiculous again.
You're asking for a crystal ball and answers to question no one can answer. You can make as many lists as you like but at the end of the day, they are lists of your opinion - nothing more. But don't presume to know what other people believe just because they're a supporter.
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All supporters have to believe the bible was fetched and read by Sheila. And my 21 questions (now 23) must be adequately answered ( which they haven't). Otherwise the bible was a plant.
Supporters have the option of going along with the suicide note allegation. Or not.
WHY must they HAVE to? Maybe no one feels the desire to answer questions they're told "must be adequately answered" Supporters also have the option of whether to respond to such questions -or NOT.
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The Bible views suicide as equal to murder, which is what it is—self-murder. God is the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die. We should say with the psalmist, “My times are in your hands” (Psalm 31:15).
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So, according to the Bible, suicide is a sin. It is not the “greatest” sin—it is no worse than other evils, in terms of how God sees it, and it does not determine a person's eternal destiny. However, suicide definitely has a deep and lasting impact on those left behind. The painful scars left by a suicide do not heal easily. May God grant His grace to each one who is facing trials today (Psalm 67:1).
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The solution to despair and hopelessness is not suicide, but faith in God.
We wait in hope for the LORD; he is our help and our shield. In him our hearts rejoice, for we trust in his holy name. May your unfailing love rest upon us, O LORD, even as we put our hopeing you (Psalms 33:20-22).
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The Bible views suicide as equal to murder, which is what it is—self-murder. God is the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die. We should say with the psalmist, “My times are in your hands” (Psalm 31:15).
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There can be no doubt that the act of killing oneself is a sin, in light of theSixth Commandment. God says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13), and suicide is murdering oneself.
If this is what the bible is saying about suicide, then it must take an even bigger stance against taking another persons life/murder.
If Sheila had breached the philosophy of the bible so badly, why then use it ?
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It seems surprising that Sheila would read the bible, considering the bible does not believe in suicide.
It is also surprising that if Sheila was reading the bible, she did not use the bible to help her out of any difficult times. As the bible says a person should do. Rather than commit multiple murder.
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I have had a quick search for the verses David mentioned on page 1. To see if they relate to murder or suicide. But have not found anything.
I'll have another look later.
At present all we have is claims that Sheila read the bible. However no sources have been provided supporting this.
Obviously if there is nothing in the bible supporting why an alleged bible reading Sheila would use it after the massacre, and before her suicide, then Bamber is guilty.
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I have had a quick search for the verses David mentioned on page 1. To see if they relate to murder or suicide. But have not found anything.
I'll have another look later.
At present all we have is claims that Sheila read the bible. However no sources have been provided supporting this.
Obviously if there is nothing in the bible supporting why an alleged bible reading Sheila would use it after the massacre, and before her suicide, then Bamber is guilty.
So if Sheila didn't read the bible, Jeremy is guilty? I do think he's guilty but would struggle to make that argument with any conviction! ;D ;D ;D
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So if Sheila didn't read the bible, Jeremy is guilty? I do think he's guilty but would struggle to make that argument with any conviction! ;D ;D ;D
Of course it shows Bamber's certain guilt.
There is no evidence she read the bible.
However there is evidence above that the bible believes murder and suicide is a sin, and is going against the religions faith. So if she read it, she would not commit murder/suicide in the first place. And certainly not read it during the massacre.
There is also no evidence that people read the pages the bible was open at, after murder or prior to suicide.
The only two options are -
Bamber planted it.
The bible fell next to Sheila. She picked it up with bloodied hands, opened it and put it on top of her own blood.
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The Bible wasn't planted,it was thrown down in anger.
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There can be no doubt that the act of killing oneself is a sin, in light of theSixth Commandment. God says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13), and suicide is murdering oneself.
If this is what the bible is saying about suicide, then it must take an even bigger stance against taking another persons life/murder.
If Sheila had breached the philosophy of the bible so badly, why then use it ?
The bible doesn't say thy shall not commit suicide.
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The Bible wasn't planted,it was thrown down in anger.
By Jeremy do you mean or Sheila?
I take it you mean by Sheila?
If it was thrown down in anger how did it land on her body?
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The Bible wasn't planted,it was thrown down in anger.
In which case, it was likely to have opened randomly OR not opened at all. There's no way that Sheila could throw anything in anger -or any other way- after she was dead. She would have had to have killed June before she killed herself. Why would one of the police at the scene have thrown down the bible in anger. Is there any one else you can think of who could have?
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In which case, it was likely to have opened randomly OR not opened at all. There's no way that Sheila could throw anything in anger -or any other way- after she was dead. She would have had to have killed June before she killed herself. Why would one of the police at the scene have thrown down the bible in anger. Is there any one else you can think of who could have?
Exactly Jane. Totally agree.
It was planted by JB - and/or he attempted to set the scene...
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The Bible tells us murder is wrong... but what does it say about suicide? These Bible verses on suicide tell us that we should respect our bodies. We are God's creations, we shouldn't die before our time or forsake God's will just because things are tough.
So even though we face challenges, always seek out light and truth. Don't stray and consider dark things such as suicide. It is not in God's will. Treat your body as a temple!
Exodus 20:13 You shall not kill.
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The Bible tells us murder is wrong... but what does it say about suicide? These Bible verses on suicide tell us that we should respect our bodies. We are God's creations, we shouldn't die before our time or forsake God's will just because things are tough.
So even though we face challenges, always seek out light and truth. Don't stray and consider dark things such as suicide. It is not in God's will. Treat your body as a temple!
Exodus 20:13 You shall not kill.
Are you quoting from a bible or are these your beliefs Adam?
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Are you quoting from a bible or are these your beliefs Adam?
I am copying from things I have just read online.
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I am copying from things I have just read online.
So they aren't what you believe then?
Are you trying to show if Sheila had a faith in a god she wouldn't have murdered and ended her own life?
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In summary.
There is no evidence Sheila read the bible.
If she did, the bible breaches that murder and suicide is wrong, and you should use you're faith to overcome problems.
There is no evidence that people read the pages the bible was open on, after murder, or prior to suicide.
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So they aren't what you believe then?
Are you trying to show if Sheila had a faith in a god she wouldn't have murdered and ended her own life?
I am not religious.
Yes, not murdered or committed suicide. However if she did do both of these, why then read someone else's bible that doesn't believe in either ?
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I am not religious.
Yes, not murdered or committed suicide. However if she did do both of these, why then read someone else's bible that doesn't believe in either ?
Agreed.
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I am not religious.
Yes, not murdered or committed suicide. However if she did do both of these, why then read someone else's bible that doesn't believe in either ?
What!
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You have lost touch with reality Peroit.
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My thread, my thread, my tread. my thread my thread, like nobody has suggested this before.
Sorry just my THREAD.
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The Bible tells us murder is wrong... but what does it say about suicide? These Bible verses on suicide tell us that we should respect our bodies. We are God's creations, we shouldn't die before our time or forsake God's will just because things are tough.
So even though we face challenges, always seek out light and truth. Don't stray and consider dark things such as suicide. It is not in God's will. Treat your body as a temple!
Exodus 20:13 You shall not kill.
If you're saying religious people don't commit suicide or murder anyone - you way off target. Sheila reading the bible or not reading it, has no bearing on anyone's guilt or innocence. Bamber staged the bible probably as an after thought - end of. You're going off on a tangent and are struggling to make sense.
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If you're saying religious people don't commit suicide or murder anyone - you way off target. Sheila reading the bible or not reading it, has no bearing on anyone's guilt or innocence. Bamber staged the bible probably as an after thought - end of. You're going off on a tangent and are struggling to make sense.
Caroline, the Bible tends to be all things to all people. We're told about "an eye for an eye" but we're also told to "turn the other cheek". I truly believe that it's within one's own psychology as to how the words are interpreted.
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The only plausible explanation is the bible was planted by Bamber. There are several obvious reasons why he would do this. He also had the time and knew where a bible would be.
As Miller said 'the bible was put next to Sheila for our benefit'.
My page one thread questions were either not answered at all, by one poster, not answered with sources, or a flippant answer given.
In the last two days, more questions and discoveries have been made, which show Sheila did not fetch or read the bible, or write a suicide note.
I said a few hours ago, the suicide note is not a huge deal, but Bamber was treading on very thin ice with the bible. And so it's proved.
The bible has been fatal for Bamber.
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The only plausible explanation is the bible was planted by Bamber. There are several obvious reasons why he would do this. He also had the time and knew where a bible would be.
As Miller said 'the bible was put next to Sheila for our benefit'.
My page one thread questions were either not answered at all, by one poster, not answered with sources, or a flippant answer given.
In the last two days, more questions and discoveries have been made, which show Sheila did not fetch or read the bible, or write a suicide note.
I said a few hours ago, the suicide note is not a huge deal, but Bamber was treading on very thin ice with the bible. And so it's proved.
The bible has been fatal for Bamber.
You really are in a world of your own. Carry On Threading! ;D ;D ;D
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My page one thread questions were either not answered at all, by one poster, not answered with sources, or a flippant answer given.
Make your mind up. Which one was it? Might it have been all three?
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Relating to the shower thread I have just created is another question about the bible.
If Sheila read religious books which suggested ritualistic cleansing, why wasn't this book next to Sheila ?
The bible was next to Sheila which does not support ritualistic cleansing, suicide or murder.
Anyway there is more than enough information for a double closure of the bible and suicide note allegations. The bible closure being fatal.
Hopefully today there will be closure on the shower allegation.
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Why are people commenting on this? You're just encouraging him.
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Including yourself !
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Why are people commenting on this? You're just encouraging him.
It is a good question.
If Sheila was reading a religious book, which encouraged murder, suicide and pre suicide religious cleansing, why wasn't this next to her ?
She would have surely brought such a book with her to WHF if she was as religious as people claim. She was staying there for several days.
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Jeremy Bamber told Julie Mugford why he'd planted the bible -
106. That evening when they were alone, Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.
"107. The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain. He told Julie Mugford that MacDonald had been paid £2,000 for the killings.
108. As a result of hearing this account, the police arrested not only the appellant but also MacDonald. Their inquiries showed that Macdonald could not have been at the farm that night and he was called by the prosecution to give evidence, that was not disputed, to confirm that he had nothing to do with the shootings.
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Jeremy Bamber told Julie Mugford why he'd planted the bible -
106. That evening when they were alone, Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.
"107. The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain. He told Julie Mugford that MacDonald had been paid £2,000 for the killings.
108. As a result of hearing this account, the police arrested not only the appellant but also MacDonald. Their inquiries showed that Macdonald could not have been at the farm that night and he was called by the prosecution to give evidence, that was not disputed, to confirm that he had nothing to do with the shootings.
Thanks. This helps wraps up Bamber's guilt.
I also checked my January 2016 thread 'Julie's WS. Surely she didn't read all of this in the papers'. Her WS mentions the bible, which she could have only found out from Bamber.
It's amazing how once piece of forensic evidence can highlight one persons guilt and another persons innocence, in over 20 ways.
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The only plausible explanation is the bible was planted by Bamber. There are several obvious reasons why he would do this. He also had the time and knew where a bible would be.
As Miller said 'the bible was put next to Sheila for our benefit'.
My page one thread questions were either not answered at all, by one poster, not answered with sources, or a flippant answer given.
In the last two days, more questions and discoveries have been made, which show Sheila did not fetch or read the bible, or write a suicide note.
I said a few hours ago, the suicide note is not a huge deal, but Bamber was treading on very thin ice with the bible. And so it's proved.
The bible has been fatal for Bamber.
Adam - you have admitted openly on this forum in other posts that you have absolutely ZERO knowledge of the Bible or religion in general ...
And it is obvious from many of your posts that you in fact do not even have the most basic knowledge of the Bible ...
Yet you constantly state that in your opinion the Bible left open at the scene somehow proves Jeremy Bamber is guilty ...
If the Bible issue is a main reason you consider him guilty then i seriously suggest you rethink your entire stance on this case very carefully indeed ...
To come to a solid conclusion based on something you know absolutely NOTHING about is very weak thinking indeed ...
Take it from me as fact - there is only ONE thing that anyone can safely assume about the Bible that was found at the scene - that is that WHOEVER left it there had a very good knowledge of the Bible and religion ...
The page it was open on make that absolutely clear to anyone who has a good knowledge of the Bible...
If with your complete ignorance of the Bible you wish to argue this point with people who know a great deal about it then with the greatest of respect you need to have a very serious think indeed ...
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Nice that people are reading my posts from 14 days ago.
I don't know anything about religion. Or the bible. Which is why I created a thread called 'Questions about the bible'.
The bible highlights Bamber's certain guilt. But if you browse the forum you will see there are hundreds of other reasons why I believe him guilty. There have been at least a dozen closures.
Why would Bamber need good knowledge of the bible and religion, to leave it there ? Just a bit of research, and he can leave it on a certain page.
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Adam - you have admitted openly on this forum in other posts that you have absolutely ZERO knowledge of the Bible or religion in general ...
And it is obvious from many of your posts that you in fact do not even have the most basic knowledge of the Bible ...
Yet you constantly state that in your opinion the Bible left open at the scene somehow proves Jeremy Bamber is guilty ...
If the Bible issue is a main reason you consider him guilty then i seriously suggest you rethink your entire stance on this case very carefully indeed ...
To come to a solid conclusion based on something you know absolutely NOTHING about is very weak thinking indeed ...
Take it from me as fact - there is only ONE thing that anyone can safely assume about the Bible that was found at the scene - that is that WHOEVER left it there had a very good knowledge of the Bible and religion ...
The page it was open on make that absolutely clear to anyone who has a good knowledge of the Bible...
If with your complete ignorance of the Bible you wish to argue this point with people who know a great deal about it then with the greatest of respect you need to have a very serious think indeed ...
Whilst it remains true that Adam has zero biblical knowledge, I DO have some knowledge. You say that the page on which it was open makes it clear to anyone who has a GOOD knowledge of the bible. GOOD is the key word, don't you think. I was able to type in "Bible verses relating to forgiveness" -something which wouldn't have been available then- the psalm, thus the page on which the bible was opened was not given in any of the copious lists given although I appreciate I didn't view them all. I can only suggest that June -whose knowledge of the bible was far greater than my own- was reading this particular psalm, perhaps it was a favourite, and Jeremy picked up the already opened bible and placed it, as he believed, appropriately. The point I'm trying to make is that if I, who was bought up with regular church and Sunday School attendances and reasonable working knowledge of the bible, now having the availability of search engines at my disposal, was unable to pull out a relevant verse off the top of my head, I'm perfectly certain that Jeremy didn't.
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Why would Bamber need good knowledge of the bible and religion, to leave it there ? Just a bit of research, and he can leave it on a certain page.
How, without a more than average knowledge of the bible, do you imagine Jeremy could have researched an appropriate passage/verse? Searching the bible for relevant passages/verses isn't something one can do from a place of absolute zero and the internet wasn't available then. Given that no priest/vicar has come forward to say Jeremy had enrolled for bible study sessions, could this be a conversation he may have had with June? "Mother, should I ever feel the need to take my inheritance and run, I'll have to get rid of you and Father and Sheila and the boys. As I'd need to make it look as if Sheila had gone mad and done it, I'll also need something to back it up. Perhaps you could recommend a passage/verse or two from that book you've always got in your hands."
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How, without a more than average knowledge of the bible, do you imagine Jeremy could have researched an appropriate passage/verse? Searching the bible for relevant passages/verses isn't something one can do from a place of absolute zero and the internet wasn't available then. Given that no priest/vicar has come forward to say Jeremy had enrolled for bible study sessions, could this be a conversation he may have had with June? "Mother, should I ever feel the need to take my inheritance and run, I'll have to get rid of you and Father and Sheila and the boys. As I'd need to make it look as if Sheila had gone mad and done it, I'll also need something to back it up. Perhaps you could recommend a passage/verse or two from that book you've always got in your hands."
Well, if the pages the bible was left open at, were relevant, as people on here claim, Bamber could easily have investigate beforehand. He had been planning the massacre for months.
He could go to a library and read a bible. Buy his own bible and then dispose of it, once read. Or read one of June's bibles.
If June was a religious maniac, as Bamber claimed, she might have told him bits about the bible, when they were on speaking terms. Or he might have done compulsive religious studies at school.
Bamber putting the bible next to Sheila would have been decided beforehand. It was an easy plant. He might as well leave it on an opened page. So he would have investigated an appropriate page.
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I suspect that Bamber borrowed one of June's bibles, if he wanted to decide which page to leave it open at. June had four bibles at WHF, so doubtful she would miss one for a day or two.
I doubt the page the bible was left open at highlighted suicide. Otherwise the defence would have brought it up at trial. Even then the prosecution would immediately counter by saying Bamber knew what page to leave it open at.
If the defence were not smart enough to look into the page the bible was left open at, Bamber could ask that question to them. It in no way highlights his guilt, he's just asking a question.
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Well, if the pages the bible was left open at, were relevant, as people on here claim, Bamber could easily have investigate beforehand. He had been planning the massacre for months.
He could go to a library and read a bible. Buy his own bible and then dispose of it, once read. Or read one of June's bibles.
If June was a religious maniac, as Bamber claimed, she might have told him bits about the bible, when they were on speaking terms. Or he might have done compulsive religious studies at school.
Bamber putting the bible next to Sheila would have been decided beforehand. It was an easy plant. He might as well leave it on an opened page. So he would have investigated an appropriate page.
Perhaps you should go and find yourself a bible -complete with Old Testament- and try to find a verse appropriate to what Jeremy needed. From a position of absolute zero, PLUS having no real interest in it, it's likely to be time consuming. Reading the bible takes diligence. Not one of Jeremy's strong points, I think.
I doubt that he'd have had any recall of bible verses June may have recited to him and had he found school RI "compulsive" he'd probably have ended up as a vicar!!! I think you must have meant COMPULSORY!!!!!
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Perhaps you should go and find yourself a bible -complete with Old Testament- and try to find a verse appropriate to what Jeremy needed. From a position of absolute zero, PLUS having no real interest in it, it's likely to be time consuming. Reading the bible takes diligence. Not one of Jeremy's strong points, I think.
I doubt that he'd have had any recall of bible verses June may have recited to him and had he found school RI "compulsive" he'd probably have ended up as a vicar!!! I think you must have meant COMPULSORY!!!!!
Apologies, being young and not posting on here 12 hours a day, I said compulsive, rather than compulsory.
Bamber spent months planning the massacre. So would have the diligence to go through the bible. The potential reward for diligence on all aspects for him were high.
Either the page the bible was left open at, had no relevance to suicide, or it did have relevance which Bamber could easily have found out. Either way it points to a plant.
As mentioned the bible does not support suicide or murder. So Sheila certainly would not know what page to look for, as she didn't read it. Or if she did, wouldn't go against it's preachings and commit murder/suicide.
Anyway, Lookout will be posting soon. Enjoy.
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Apologies, being young and not posting on here 12 hours a day, I said compulsive, rather than compulsory.
Bamber spent months planning the massacre. So would have the diligence to go through the bible. The potential reward for diligence on all aspects for him were high.
Either the page the bible was left open at, had no relevance to suicide, or it did have relevance which Bamber could easily have found out. Either way it points to a plant.
As mentioned the bible does not support suicide or murder. So Sheila certainly would not know what page to look for, as she didn't read it. Or if she did, wouldn't go against it's preachings and commit murder/suicide.
Anyway, Lookout will be posting soon. Enjoy.
Apologies accepted but I see no correlation between your alleged age, and the time you spend here with your grammatical error.
I very much doubt that Jeremy had the diligence to apply himself to such a task.
That the bible was either relevant or not, I believe can be accepted.
Certainly, the bible -of itself- denotes neither suicide nor murder.
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I suspect that Bamber borrowed one of June's bibles, if he wanted to decide which page to leave it open at. June had four bibles at WHF, so doubtful she would miss one for a day or two.
I doubt the page the bible was left open at highlighted suicide. Otherwise the defence would have brought it up at trial. Even then the prosecution would immediately counter by saying Bamber knew what page to leave it open at.
If the defence were not smart enough to look into the page the bible was left open at, Bamber could ask that question to them. It in no way highlights his guilt, he's just asking a question.
Adam - to be clear the page the Bible was open at is not really relevant to suicide - it is in fact relevant to murder and specifically seeking God's forgiveness after having committed murder ...
To re quote myself from a previous post
"This afternoon i have spent 2 hours talking with the Church of England Vicar Reverend Richard Fisher - he is the Vicar of St Johns Church in Loughton, Essex.
I asked him if a Christian had murdered someone what passage of the Bible would they turn to for comfort and/or forgiveness.
He told me what i already knew - Psalm 51
He has been a Vicar for 26 years - he knows what he is talking about more than ANYONE who has had any involvement in this case ..."
So i hope you and others can now take this as fact ...
You are right to suggest that Jeremy Bamber may have researched and/or known this - but he did not bring this up at trial. His lawyer did try to make enquiries about the pages significance and this might or might not have been at Jeremy's suggestion - we simply do not know ...
His defence team failed badly in not pursuing this further - they tried to raise it in his 2002 appeal but the "expert" opinion they got was sadly lacking on this point - it is a shame they did not ask the Reverend Richard Fisher to give his opinion instead ...
I am happy that you have stated you are a young person - i had come to the conclusion that you are indeed a young person - and the fullest of respect to you for being such an active member of these forums at a young age - it shows you care about important issues in society ...
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Apologies, being young and not posting on here 12 hours a day, I said compulsive, rather than compulsory.
Bamber spent months planning the massacre. So would have the diligence to go through the bible. The potential reward for diligence on all aspects for him were high.
Either the page the bible was left open at, had no relevance to suicide, or it did have relevance which Bamber could easily have found out. Either way it points to a plant.
As mentioned the bible does not support suicide or murder. So Sheila certainly would not know what page to look for, as she didn't read it. Or if she did, wouldn't go against it's preachings and commit murder/suicide.
Anyway, Lookout will be posting soon. Enjoy.
Sheila might well have known of the pages significance - she definitely had an interest in God and the Bible etc ...
She might have gone against the Bible's teachings regarding murder and if she had it is perfectly possible she would have turned to this particular page to seek forgiveness ...
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Whilst it remains true that Adam has zero biblical knowledge, I DO have some knowledge. You say that the page on which it was open makes it clear to anyone who has a GOOD knowledge of the bible. GOOD is the key word, don't you think. I was able to type in "Bible verses relating to forgiveness" -something which wouldn't have been available then- the psalm, thus the page on which the bible was opened was not given in any of the copious lists given although I appreciate I didn't view them all. I can only suggest that June -whose knowledge of the bible was far greater than my own- was reading this particular psalm, perhaps it was a favourite, and Jeremy picked up the already opened bible and placed it, as he believed, appropriately. The point I'm trying to make is that if I, who was bought up with regular church and Sunday School attendances and reasonable working knowledge of the bible, now having the availability of search engines at my disposal, was unable to pull out a relevant verse off the top of my head, I'm perfectly certain that Jeremy didn't.
It is possible June was reading the Bible and had it open at this page - i am sure she had read every page of the Bible many times ...
But as you can see from my reply to Adam above it is for sure very relevant to seeking forgiveness after having committed murder - which is why i rule this particular possibility out - this edition of the Bible has roughly 1,344 pages and even accounting for the fact it was open at a double page still leaves only a 1 in 672 chance of it being open at this page by random coincidence ...
And that is too unlikely for even Sherlock to consider possible ...
And of course from our limited knowledge of Jeremy it would appear unlikely that he would have had the required knowledge - but as Adam said he had plenty of time (if guilty) to prepare and research - so it is a possibility ...
Another possibility is that if a hitman was involved then the hitman would have had this knowledge - from Sheilas account of Jeremy's confession to her he allegedly stated that the hitman had planted the Bible to make it look like Sheila did it - although the alleged confession made no mention of the relevance of the particular page it was left open at ...
The only certain fact (barring a 1 in 672 coincidence) is that whoever committed (or ordered) the murders had the required knowledge of the relevance of this page (Psalm 51) ...
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Adam - to be clear the page the Bible was open at is not really relevant to suicide - it is in fact relevant to murder and specifically seeking God's forgiveness after having committed murder ...
To re quote myself from a previous post
"This afternoon i have spent 2 hours talking with the Church of England Vicar Reverend Richard Fisher - he is the Vicar of St Johns Church in Loughton, Essex.
I asked him if a Christian had murdered someone what passage of the Bible would they turn to for comfort and/or forgiveness.
He told me what i already knew - Psalm 51
He has been a Vicar for 26 years - he knows what he is talking about more than ANYONE who has had any involvement in this case ..."
So i hope you and others can now take this as fact ...
You are right to suggest that Jeremy Bamber may have researched and/or known this - but he did not bring this up at trial. His lawyer did try to make enquiries about the pages significance and this might or might not have been at Jeremy's suggestion - we simply do not know ...
His defence team failed badly in not pursuing this further - they tried to raise it in his 2002 appeal but the "expert" opinion they got was sadly lacking on this point - it is a shame they did not ask the Reverend Richard Fisher to give his opinion instead ...
I am happy that you have stated you are a young person - i had come to the conclusion that you are indeed a young person - and the fullest of respect to you for being such an active member of these forums at a young age - it shows you care about important issues in society ...
I suspect that vicars have as many differing opinions as do doctors. I don't know how you might have put the question to the Rev Richard Fisher, but if you asked if someone seeking God's forgiveness would turn to a specific Psalm, the answer will undoubtedly be in the affirmative. However, if you asked an open question, you'd probably still be listening to the options. To test this out I'll ask my friend -who is a vicar- the open question.
It occurs to be that you may be incredibly naive in some of the conclusions you arrive at. Not everyone is a vicar and not everyone tell the truth. I live in hope that you actually see things rather more clearly and that your tongue is firmly in your cheek ;)
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I suspect that vicars have as many differing opinions as do doctors. I don't know how you might have put the question to the Rev Richard Fisher, but if you asked if someone seeking God's forgiveness would turn to a specific Psalm, the answer will undoubtedly be in the affirmative. However, if you asked an open question, you'd probably still be listening to the options. To test this out I'll ask my friend -who is a vicar- the open question.
It occurs to be that you may be incredibly naive in some of the conclusions you arrive at. Not everyone is a vicar and not everyone tell the truth. I live in hope that you actually see things rather more clearly and that your tongue is firmly in your cheek ;)
To be clear i did not mention Psalm 51 - i simply asked what passage of the Bible some one would turn to in these circumstances - he came up straight away with Psalm 51 - it came from him and not me ...
I am very far from naive and so you know the Rev Richard Fisher really is a Church of England Vicar with 26 years experience :
"https://loughtonchurch.org.uk/?page_id=147"
I would highly recommend anyone to attend one of his Services ...
I would of course be interested to hear your Vicar friends opinion on the matter ...
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To be clear i did not mention Psalm 51 - i simply asked what passage of the Bible some one would turn to in these circumstances - he came up straight away with Psalm 51 - it came from him and not me ...
I am very far from naive and so you know the Rev Richard Fisher really is a Church of England Vicar with 26 years experience :
"https://loughtonchurch.org.uk/?page_id=147"
I would highly recommend anyone to attend one of his Services ...
I would of course be interested to hear your Vicar friends opinion on the matter ...
My comment had nothing to do with the Rev Richard Fisher. Is he you local vicar or did you just pick one at random?
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My comment had nothing to do with the Rev Richard Fisher. Is he you local vicar or did you just pick one at random?
You surely were not suggesting that Adam was lying about being a young person ?
Along with others on this forum i will not answer any questions that may or may not help to identify me ...
And if i did tell you who my local Vicar is you might be somewhat surprised ...
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You surely were not suggesting that Adam was lying about being a young person ?
Along with others on this forum i will not answer any questions that may or may not help to identify me ...
And if i did tell you who my local Vicar is you might be somewhat surprised ...
You're surely not suggesting I was?
Hm, probably wise...............especially if you have anything to hide OR you value your privacy.
Varry intarestink.
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You surely were not suggesting that Adam was lying about being a young person ?
Along with others on this forum i will not answer any questions that may or may not help to identify me ...
And if i did tell you who my local Vicar is you might be somewhat surprised ...
Personally, I wouldn't care.
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Most scenarios would result in June's bible not being next to Sheila -
Sheila did not read the bible.
She read the bible but it frowns upon murder / suicide.
She read other religious books which supported murder/suicide, so would read these prior to suicide.
She had her own bible.
She read the bible and then put it back where she found it.
She read the bible but did not want to read June's, who she had just killed.
She was not calm enough to read anything after killing five people and having a violent kitchen fight.
She did not have a torch to read the bible in the dark upstairs bedroom. The police would have seen the bedroom light go on.
She did not read the bible before murdering everyone. So why read it before committing suicide ?
The murder suicide was planned by Sheila and she had read the bible earlier in the evening. So no reason why it should be next to her on the floor.
The most plausible reason the bible was next to Sheila, is it was an easy plant for Bamber.
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Sheila wasn't interested in the Bible. It was only her mother.
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Sheila wasn't interested in the Bible. It was only her mother.
Do you think Bamber planted the bible next to her ?
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No I don't.
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No I don't.
Who do you believe put the bible next to Sheila ?
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Her mother-------who else ?
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Her mother-------who else ?
You think June was killed AFTER Sheila? If Sheila is the killer - How does that work? :-\
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What's more,it was thrown down as opposed to it having been put/placed down. Unless it had been bookmarked in any way,and I'm not talking about which pages the blood was there,it didn't fall in any particular page which has been quoted as being from Psalm 51 onwards.
Even the Bible had done the rounds,like the rifle had----on the chest,by her side,then on the floor.
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What's more,it was thrown down as opposed to it having been put/placed down. Unless it had been bookmarked in any way,and I'm not talking about which pages the blood was there,it didn't fall in any particular page which has been quoted as being from Psalm 51 onwards.
Even the Bible had done the rounds,like the rifle had----on the chest,by her side,then on the floor.
But haven't you claimed that the photos of Sheila show her as having died more recently than the others - due to no rigor mortis?
If your claim is that JUNE put the bible near a dead SHEILA who are you claiming killed June?
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Most scenarios would result in June's bible not being next to Sheila -
Sheila did not read the bible.
She read the bible but it frowns upon murder / suicide.
She read other religious books which supported murder/suicide, so would read these prior to suicide.
She had her own bible.
She read the bible and then put it back where she found it.
She read the bible but did not want to read June's, who she had just killed.
She was not calm enough to read anything after killing five people and having a violent kitchen fight.
She did not have a torch to read the bible in the dark upstairs bedroom. The police would have seen the bedroom light go on.
She did not read the bible before murdering everyone. So why read it before committing suicide ?
The murder suicide was planned by Sheila and she had read the bible earlier in the evening. So no reason why it should be next to her on the floor.
The most plausible reason the bible was next to Sheila, is it was an easy plant for Bamber.
Adam just admit it. Your a hardcore Jeremy supporter and campaign team member deliberately spreading countless idiotic arguments across the forum to make the prosecution and the pro guilt look bad.
No well meaning honest person would make arguments this stupid!
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My sentiments too.
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Adam just admit it. Your a hardcore Jeremy supporter and campaign team member deliberately spreading countless idiotic arguments across the forum to make the prosecution and the pro guilt look bad.
No well meaning honest person would make arguments this stupid!
Us guilters also have a guilter who is posting as a supporter. ;D ;D
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Adam just admit it. Your a hardcore Jeremy supporter and campaign team member deliberately spreading countless idiotic arguments across the forum to make the prosecution and the pro guilt look bad.
No well meaning honest person would make arguments this stupid!
ive long suspected this.
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But haven't you claimed that the photos of Sheila show her as having died more recently than the others - due to no rigor mortis?
If your claim is that JUNE put the bible near a dead SHEILA who are you claiming killed June?
Can't you work anything out,or is it that you won't bother ?
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Can't you work anything out,or is it that you won't bother ?
I just don't want to accuse you of saying something you're not - because then you will accuse me of putting word into your mouth.
I think you're talking along the disgraceful lines AGAIN of June being involved in the killings.
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I just don't want to accuse you of saying something you're not - because then you will accuse me of putting word into your mouth.
Excuse me,but you are STILL putting words into my mouth because I didn't say the latter,I've no need to, but you seemingly have otherwise you wouldn't have said what you did "I think you're talking along the disgraceful lines AGAIN of June being involved in the killings.
"
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Adam just admit it. Your a hardcore Jeremy supporter and campaign team member deliberately spreading countless idiotic arguments across the forum to make the prosecution and the pro guilt look bad.
No well meaning honest person would make arguments this stupid!
You just can't dispute my points. So just focus on me. Like you did after I made 18 (now 20) irrefutable facts why Bamber could easily cycle 3 miles. But if you can dispute them, feel free.
Can you please submit you're detailed account of how Sheila committed the massacre. If you can't, just say.
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adam youve been cought now just admit it.
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What's more,it was thrown down as opposed to it having been put/placed down. Unless it had been bookmarked in any way,and I'm not talking about which pages the blood was there,it didn't fall in any particular page which has been quoted as being from Psalm 51 onwards.
Even the Bible had done the rounds,like the rifle had----on the chest,by her side,then on the floor.
June threw the bible down and it landed on Sheila's blood ? Is it June's blood all over the bible then ?
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Excuse me,but you are STILL putting words into my mouth because I didn't say the latter,I've no need to, but you seemingly have otherwise you wouldn't have said what you did "I think you're talking along the disgraceful lines AGAIN of June being involved in the killings.
Well maybe someone else can explain what you mean for you since you seem to only willing to HINT. How an ALIVE June can place the bible by a dead Sheila......It's clear what you're getting at as you've posted it before.
It's just more shame on you really.
June threw the bible down and it landed on Sheila's blood ? Is it June's blood all over the bible then ?
Doesn't explain the long held position that Sheila apparently doesn't have rigor mortis (from her photo) yet now she was apparently dead BEFORE June.
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Sheila wasn't interested in the Bible. It was only her mother.
This refutes David's post which says Sheila read the bible.
Neither of you have provided sources.
In this case I will go by my own judgement, the OS and CT Youtube videos. None of which provide any sources that Sheila read the bible. Therefore I agree with you're post.
However I believe the bible next to Sheila was a plant by Bamber. Rather than June putting it there.
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Well maybe someone else can explain what you mean for you since you seem to only willing to HINT. How an ALIVE June can place the bible by a dead Sheila......It's clear what you're getting at as you've posted it before.
It's just more shame on you really.
Doesn't explain the long held position that Sheila apparently doesn't have rigor mortis (from her photo) yet now she was apparently dead BEFORE June.
Isn't it obvious that June had wandered around before her death,when she'd trailed droplets of blood on the carpet near to where Sheila had lain ? Then would have dropped the Bible near to Sheila before dropping to the floor herself ? Then soon after would have been when Sheila delivered to herself,the second shot ? Sheila was the last one to die.
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Us guilters also have a guilter who is posting as a supporter. ;D ;D
I could never guess who that person is mat ;)
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This refutes David's post which says Sheila read the bible.
Neither of you have provided sources.
In this case I will go by the OS and CT Youtube videos. None of which provide any sources that Sheila read the bible.
What's with this bible stuff you keep making demands for sources about, Adam? I have suggested the possibility that a terrified Sheila MAY have turned to it for comfort. You, as a.......... what? Atheist, heathen, agnostic, or simply ignorant of Christian principles, clearly disagree. Because neither I nor anyone else was there, unlike you, neither I, nor others can make sweeping claims or judgements therefore, although there will be NO sources, I guess it's up for grabs. I suppose that makes everyone's views either as likely -or unlikely- as your own.
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ive long suspected this.
His avatar is a photo of Jeremy, Plus his signature 'Shelia's gone crazy and has got the gun' all makes sense now
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I could never guess who that person is mat ;)
Oh I think you could! ;D
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You just can't dispute my points. So just focus on me. Like you did after I made 18 (now 20) irrefutable facts why Bamber could easily cycle 3 miles. But if you can dispute them, feel free.
Can you please submit you're detailed account of how Sheila committed the massacre. If you can't, just say.
You points don't prove anything so what is there to dispute?
Now that you have been exposed as a covert Bamber supporter hell bent on destroying the guilters credibility, this explains why you are so desperate to see my more detailed account of how Shelia committed the massacre.
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What's with this bible stuff you keep making demands for sources about, Adam? I have suggested the possibility that a terrified Sheila MAY have turned to it for comfort. You, as a.......... what? Atheist, heathen, agnostic, or simply ignorant of Christian principles, clearly disagree. Because neither I nor anyone else was there, unlike you, neither I, nor others can make sweeping claims or judgements therefore, although there will be NO sources, I guess it's up for grabs. I suppose that makes everyone's views either as likely -or unlikely- as your own.
Well my thread post asked 'Did Sheila read the bible' ? I had never read whether she did or not.
David instantly said in red 'Yes'. But did not provide a source.
Lookout has today said Sheila did not read the bible. But has also not provided a source.
As I said, my view is she did not read the bible. Although if a source is found that she did, it's also bad news for Bamber. As the bible frowns upon murder and suicide.
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Isn't it obvious that June had wandered around before her death,when she'd trailed droplets of blood on the carpet near to where Sheila had lain ? Then would have dropped the Bible near to Sheila before dropping to the floor herself ? Then soon after would have been when Sheila delivered to herself,the second shot ? Sheila was the last one to die.
The logistics don't work, Lookout. We have an injured June -we know the first shots happened whilst she was in bed- walking to the end of her 6ft long bed, across the bottom of this bed which could have been up to 6ft wide and along the other 6ft long side to drop a bible on a supposedly dead Sheila who is on the floor. She then has to make her way back. She'd have been a seriously long way from Sheila by the time she was near the bedroom door and because she'd have been shielded from Sheila by the height of the bed, Sheila, who Vanezis now says didn't move after the first shot, would either have had to have crawled under the bed or stood up to deliver the fatal shot to June.
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You points don't prove anything so what is there to dispute?
Now that you have been exposed as a covert Bamber supporter hell bent on destroying the guilters credibility, this explains why you are so desperate to see my more detailed account of how Shelia committed the massacre.
Well 20 'facts' on why Bamber would not find it difficult to cycle certainly refutes you're post suggesting it was a problem for him. A post which had no supporting facts from you.
You just focus on me because you can't refute my facts. And you haven't.
And can you please provide you're detailed account of how Sheila committed the massacre. You've had about 4 months to work it out since saying you were going to provide it. If you can't, just say.
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What's with this bible stuff you keep making demands for sources about, Adam? I have suggested the possibility that a terrified Sheila MAY have turned to it for comfort.
There is another possibility I have considered, This can actually work for either Jeremy guilty or Innocent.
The bible is left open on the bedside table were Neville sleeps. Part of the bible is off the edge of the table like this
(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/%E5%9C%A8%E6%A1%8C%E8%BE%B9%E7%BC%98%E7%9A%84%E4%B9%A0%E5%AD%97%E7%B0%BF-50704048.jpg)
When Shelia is either murdered or commits suicide, as she falls back her head knocks or drags it off the table and lands right by her.
Possibility in my opinion
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Well my thread post asked 'Did Sheila read the bible' ? I had never read whether she did or not.
David instantly said in red 'Yes'. But did not provide a source.
Lookout has today said Sheila did not read the bible. But has also not provided a source.
As I said, my view is she did not read the bible. Although if a source is found that she did, it's also bad news for Bamber. As the bible frowns upon murder and suicide.
Adam, why would YOU as opposed to any of US have read of it, one way or the other. Who is there, do you think, who COULD provide a source? You and Lookout say she did not. I say she MAY have. This, at least, is probably something Jeremy can rest easy about.
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His avatar is a photo of Jeremy, Plus his signature 'Shelia's gone crazy and has got the gun' all makes sense now
Who on earth can that be?
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Adam, why would YOU as opposed to any of US have read of it, one way or the other. Who is there, do you think, who COULD provide a source? You and Lookout say she did not. I say she MAY have. This, at least, is probably something Jeremy can rest easy about.
Well David and Lookout obviously have a source. Otherwise they would not say she did or didn't read the bible.
Hopefully they will both provide their sources and everyone can decide which is the more credible source.
Although David is now claiming the bible fell open onto the floor. On a specific page. On Sheila's blood and somehow got blood all over it.
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There is another possibility I have considered, This can actually work for either Jeremy guilty or Innocent.
The bible is left open on the bedside table were Neville sleeps. Part of the bible is off the edge of the table like this
(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/%E5%9C%A8%E6%A1%8C%E8%BE%B9%E7%BC%98%E7%9A%84%E4%B9%A0%E5%AD%97%E7%B0%BF-50704048.jpg)
When Shelia is either murdered or commits suicide, as she falls back her head knocks or drags it off the table and lands right by her.
Possibility in my opinion
I agree that is a possibility, I have wondered before if the bible was on the bed and fallen onto the floor at some point. :-\
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Well David and Lookout obviously have a source. Otherwise they would not say she did or didn't.
Hopefully they will both provide their sources and everyone can decide which is the more credible source. Although David is now claiming the bible fell open onto the floor.
You have said she didn't. What is your source for claiming this? I can accept the possibility that the bible may have fallen on the floor.
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I agree that is a possibility, I have wondered before if the bible was on the bed and fallen onto the floor at some point. :-\
Maggie
that makes good sense to me.
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You have said she didn't. What is your source for claiming this? I can accept the possibility that the bible may have fallen on the floor.
In my view she didn't. For various reasons which I have mentioned. Some in post 267. Not to support my own view of guilt, as it's just as damaging to Bamber if she did read it.
David answered my thread question with a definitive 'yes', in red. Stating it as a fact but did not provide a source. He now is suggesting it fell open onto Sheila's blood and somehow got covered in blood.
Lookout today said she did not read the bible and stated it as a fact rather than an opinion. But has not provided a source.
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In my view she didn't. For various reasons which I have mentioned. Some in post 267. Not to support my own view of guilt, as it's just as damaging to Bamber if she did read it.
David answered my thread question with a definitive 'yes', in red. Stating it as a fact but did not provide a source. He now is suggesting it fell open onto Sheila's blood and somehow got covered in blood.
Lookout today said she did not read the bible and stated it as a fact rather than an opinion. But has not provided a source.
We can ONLY make suggestions. As no one can vouch for what happened there can be no source. If David had a rethink it's all to the good. His suggestion is sound.
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I have found Colin mentioning Shelia's Religious beliefs in a letter he wrote to Neville. That's good enough for me.
I have read several times that Shelia began studying the bible with June at one time tho I cannot remember were.
Iv anyone wants to know more about Shelias interest in religion you would probably find more good sources or answers in either Dr Furgusons statements, Barbra Wilsons statements or colins book rainbows end
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We can ONLY make suggestions. As no one can vouch for what happened there can be no source. If David had a rethink it's all to the good. His suggestion is sound.
No one can vouch for what happened. However there could be sources for whether she read it before the massacre.
I don't know why David would answer 'yes' in red ink, if he had no source. He must have panicked after seeing the thread questions and instantly answered in a way that defended Bamber. None of his other answers had a source, 😇except one. Although I did request them.
In my view Bamber planted the bible. Rather than it amazingly falling open, next to Sheila, onto her blood and covering itself in blood.
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No one can vouch for what happened. However there could be sources for whether she read it before the massacre.
I don't know why David would answer 'yes' in red ink, if he had no source. He must have panicked after seeing the thread questions and instantly answered in a way that defended Bamber.
In my view Bamber planted the bible. Rather than it amazingly falling open, onto Sheila's blood and covering itself in blood.
That's what would happen if the bible was left on the bedside table, partially off the corner. The idea of Neville leaving a bible by his bedside table is nothing odd if you ask me.
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I have found Colin mentioning Shelia's Religious beliefs in a letter he wrote to Neville. That's good enough for me.
I have read several times that Shelia began studying the bible with June at one time tho I cannot remember were.
Iv anyone wants to know more about Shelias interest in religion you would probably find more good sources or answers in either Dr Furgusons statements, Barbra Wilsons statements or colins book rainbows end
Perhaps you could post the letter? It's possible that because Colin was angry when he wrote the letter he may have made some exaggerations OR perhaps Sheila had for her own "Rescue me" agenda?
It's possible that at some point June managed to persuade Sheila to study the bible with her but I would have thought it would have been sporadic as opposed to regular?
Over time I've picked up that Sheila's views of religion may only have materialized when she was ill. A not uncommon feature with PS.
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I have found Colin mentioning Shelia's Religious beliefs in a letter he wrote to Neville. That's good enough for me.
I have read several times that Shelia began studying the bible with June at one time tho I cannot remember were.
Iv anyone wants to know more about Shelias interest in religion you would probably find more good sources or answers in either Dr Furgusons statements, Barbra Wilsons statements or colins book rainbows end
It was never lost nor was it sent.
Cannot remember where - doesn't hold water David.
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It was never lost nor was it sent.
Cannot remember where - doesn't hold water David.
I'm afraid it does, specially when there are multiple sources to corroborate it. Such as Dr Fergusons statements I quote
"Both June and Shelia suffered delusional states of religion"
"She said he had some religious feelings - she had found God and felt relaxed"
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I'm afraid it does, specially when there are multiple sources to corroborate it. Such as Dr Fergusons statements I quote
"Both June and Shelia suffered delusional states of religion"
"She said he had some religious feelings - she had found God and felt relaxed"
I don't doubt, that at SOME time, Dr Ferguson said those words of both June and Sheila. However, they should be put into context. Dr Ferguson only saw these women when they were ill.
God featured hugely in June's life. None of her friends would contradict this fact. God was her guiding force and as such, in times of stress, it was to Him she turned -some might hit the bottle, chain smoke, or use food in varying degrees. I suspect that part of the problem, for June, was that when she became stressed/ill to the point where she couldn't function, she felt she'd let God down, rather than He had let her down. What is absolutely certain is that God was as big a part of June's life whether she was ill or well.
You haven't made clear, during which stay in hospital, the words you quote were said of Sheila, but "................she had found God and felt relaxed" certainly doesn't fit the Sheila described by one and all during the last two weeks of her life. If we go back to her last stay in hospital, she was very eager to get out because she didn't want her biological mother to see her there. I have no hesitation in believing that Sheila would have tried "God" as a way of placating June, but other than during her breakdowns, I really don't think she ever developed the kind of "relationship" with Him that June had.
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What I'm trying to say is that the Bible had been forced upon Sheila from a very early start in her life when her mother was trying to teach morals and such like and more or less how one should be guided by the teachings of it. Sheila had been vulnerable enough to take part of it in particularly towards the end of her life when things had got so bad in her life that her mind struggled with the thought of separating good from evil.
If Sheila had been in a household where no Bibles existed,then she'd have been an entirely different person. There'd been no sign of any Bibles where she'd lived and if it had been the case that she too had been religious minded,then there'd have been a Bible or two at her apartment. All Sheila was doing was repeating what her mother had told her and if she hadn't have died when she did,she'd have been an utter mess suffering what her mother did and having to withstand years of therapy and counselling for religious psychosis which is harder to treat within the mental health programme.
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I'm afraid it does, specially when there are multiple sources to corroborate it. Such as Dr Fergusons statements I quote
"Both June and Shelia suffered delusional states of religion"
"She said he had some religious feelings - she had found God and felt relaxed"
I'm afraid it doesn't - if it doesn't stand for Lookout, it doesn't stand for you either.
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I don't doubt, that at SOME time, Dr Ferguson said those words of both June and Sheila. However, they should be put into context. Dr Ferguson only saw these women when they were ill.
God featured hugely in June's life. None of her friends would contradict this fact. God was her guiding force and as such, in times of stress, it was to Him she turned -some might hit the bottle, chain smoke, or use food in varying degrees. I suspect that part of the problem, for June, was that when she became stressed/ill to the point where she couldn't function, she felt she'd let God down, rather than He had let her down. What is absolutely certain is that God was as big a part of June's life whether she was ill or well.
You haven't made clear, during which stay in hospital, the words you quote were said of Sheila, but "................she had found God and felt relaxed" certainly doesn't fit the Sheila described by one and all during the last two weeks of her life. If we go back to her last stay in hospital, she was very eager to get out because she didn't want her biological mother to see her there. I have no hesitation in believing that Sheila would have tried "God" as a way of placating June, but other than during her breakdowns, I really don't think she ever developed the kind of "relationship" with Him that June had.
If all this depends on what someone said (at some point) - Jeremy said he wanted to kill his parents frequently throughout the year preceding their deaths - they ended up dead.
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What I'm trying to say is that the Bible had been forced upon Sheila from a very early start in her life when her mother was trying to teach morals and such like and more or less how one should be guided by the teachings of it. Sheila had been vulnerable enough to take part of it in particularly towards the end of her life when things had got so bad in her life that her mind struggled with the thought of separating good from evil.
If Sheila had been in a household where no Bibles existed,then she'd have been an entirely different person. There'd been no sign of any Bibles where she'd lived and if it had been the case that she too had been religious minded,then there'd have been a Bible or two at her apartment. All Sheila was doing was repeating what her mother had told her and if she hadn't have died when she did,she'd have been an utter mess suffering what her mother did and having to withstand years of therapy and counselling for religious psychosis which is harder to treat within the mental health programme.
I agree with much of what you say, however, there is nothing to indicate Sheila had a difficult relationship with God, OTHER than when she was ill. We have documented proof that she was ill on two occasions. We can't presume to reach conclusions on anything other than that.
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Ha! What kind of counter argument is that? I can sense your desperation ;D
Your using xxxxxxx xx x xxxxxxxxx? I almost fell out my chair!
Sorry Caroline but I have to issue you one a ricky facepalm for that ^-^
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
You said "I have read several times that Sheila had begun studying the Bible with June..............but I can't remember where." Caroline is PERFECTLY correct in saying that such a statement doesn't hold water coming from you, any more than it's a water container when it's delivered by Lookout. No one is denying that what you say MAY be true, whilst there remains no documentation and whilst your memory is vague, it can't be assumed to be.
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Ha! What kind of counter argument is that? I can sense your desperation ;D
Your using xxxxxxx xx x xxxxxxxxx? I almost fell out my chair!
I don't think you should be laughing at Caroline for 'you' missing the point. ???
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You said "I have read several times that Sheila had begun studying the Bible with June..............but I can't remember where." Caroline is PERFECTLY correct in saying that such a statement doesn't hold water coming from you, any more than it's a water container when it's delivered by Lookout. No one is denying that what you say MAY be true, whilst there remains no documentation and whilst your memory is vague, it can't be assumed to be.
What I say IS true. There remains documentation on this very forum for all to see. If quoting in written text is not convincing enough for you. Below I have attached the relevant parts of Dr Ferguson's statements to Essex police one is from the 8th of August the other is from the 18th September 1985. Its not coming from me is since I am and quoting directing from Dr Ferguson its his words not mine.
Happy now? 8)
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I think the religion bit was used as a prop during certain times in Sheila's behaviour,particularly when she was being confronted or to get out of a situation. Whichever way you look at it,it was more a cry for help than the fact that she was,herself,religious.
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What I say IS true. There remains documentation on this very forum for all to see. If quoting in written text is not convincing enough for you. Below I have attached the relevant parts of Dr Ferguson's statements to Essex police one is from the 8th of August the other is from the 18th September 1985. Its not coming from me is since I am and quoting directing from Dr Ferguson its his words not mine.
Happy now? 8)
I'm not sure I am, you said:
I have read several times that Shelia began studying the bible with June at one time tho I cannot remember were.
Where have you read this several times?
The fact that YOU have read it, but YOU cannot remember where, isn't exactly compelling. :-\
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I'm not sure I am, you said:
Where have you read this several times?
The fact that YOU have read it, but YOU cannot remember where, isn't exactly compelling. :-\
Colin's statements to police.
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What I say IS true. There remains documentation on this very forum for all to see. If quoting in written text is not convincing enough for you. Below I have attached the relevant parts of Dr Ferguson's statements to Essex police one is from the 8th of August the other is from the 18th September 1985. Its not coming from me is since I am and quoting directing from Dr Ferguson its his words not mine.
Happy now? 8)
OK. So we have Dr Ferguson saying, Aug 8th, that Sheila and June suffered the same symptoms but for different reasons. Hardly difinitve, is it? In September he's describing how Sheila was when she was readmitted. One has to assume that, if she was still exhibiting the same symptoms -the reason for her admission- at the time of her release, he wouldn't have released her. He actually CAN'T say what she was like after she left the hospital because he never saw her again, ergo, no conclusions can be drawn about her relationship with God at the time of her death.
Colin, in this context, can't be said to be entirely reliable. A) He no longer lived with Sheila. B) He was an atheist so the very mention of "God" was probably anathema to him.
You still have not told us from where you received the knowledge that Sheilahad been studying the Bible with June.
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Colin's statements to police.
I've just read all of his statements which are available on this forum, including the hand written ones.
(see here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1560.msg47922.html#msg47922 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1560.msg47922.html#msg47922) )
I may be mistaken, but I didn't see any mention of Sheila and June studying the bible together.
Any ideas? ???
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Colin's statements to police.
As you have proved to be incorrect about Colin saying that June and Sheila studied the bible together (which was what I was referring to) - I throw Ricky Palm Face - back in your face. All you have posted is that Colin said she found religion - most of the forum could have told you that. You did this with something else - I shall have to dig it up! :P
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
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Colin's statements to police.
It's interesting that all Colin has to say is that "she mentioned (it) to me." It doesn't actually sound as if they had a conversation about it.
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I've just read all of his statements which are available on this forum, including the hand written ones.
(see here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1560.msg47922.html#msg47922 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1560.msg47922.html#msg47922) )
I may be mistaken, but I didn't see any mention of Sheila and June studying the bible together.
Any ideas? ???
Its most probable that I read such a statement from an author or journalist using such sources as Colins statements ect to put together that narrative. If I ever come across it again I will let you know.
However it only takes common sense and logic to work out that Shelia had read the bible at some stage. You have multiple sources confirming Shelia's religious beliefs in God and Jesus ect now there is only one source one can go to obtain such beliefs that is reading the Bible or being read testimony from the Bible. If someone believes in Jesus then the Bible is significant to them because that is the story of Jesus and the fabric of the faith itself.
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Its most probable that I read such a statement from an author or journalist using such sources as Colins statements ect to put together that narrative. If I ever come across it again I will let you know.
However it only takes common sense and logic to work out that Shelia had read the bible at some stage. You have multiple sources confirming Shelia's religious beliefs in God and Jesus ect now there is only one source one can go to obtain such beliefs that is reading the Bible or being read testimony from the Bible. If someone believes in Jesus then the Bible is significant to them because that is the story of Jesus and the fabric of the faith itself.
You're missing the point (and I think deliberately) NO ONE is suggesting that Sheila hadn't read from the bible but YOU said you have read that June and Sheila studied it TOGETHER and your back up for that is 'that you read it somewhere'. Perhaps you should take your own advice? ;)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7183.msg339368.html#msg339368
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Its most probable that I read such a statement from an author or journalist using such sources as Colins statements ect to put together that narrative. If I ever come across it again I will let you know.
However it only takes common sense and logic to work out that Shelia had read the bible at some stage. You have multiple sources confirming Shelia's religious beliefs in God and Jesus ect now there is only one source one can go to obtain such beliefs that is reading the Bible or being read testimony from the Bible. If someone believes in Jesus then the Bible is significant to them because that is the story of Jesus and the fabric of the faith itself.
You appear to be trying to create something out of this which isn't there simply to prove your own point. many of us who'd been bought up with regular church/Sunday school/R.E. lessons in school, can probably quote those bible passages, as adults, that we had to learn by heart, as children. We CAN'T unlearn or unhappen them, whether, or not, we believe in Jesus. I very much doubt that Sheila was the potential Evangelist you're trying to present her as being.
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OK. So we have Dr Ferguson saying, Aug 8th, that Sheila and June suffered the same symptoms but for different reasons. Hardly difinitve, is it? In September he's describing how Sheila was when she was readmitted. One has to assume that, if she was still exhibiting the same symptoms -the reason for her admission- at the time of her release, he wouldn't have released her. He actually CAN'T say what she was like after she left the hospital because he never saw her again, ergo, no conclusions can be drawn about her relationship with God at the time of her death.
Colin, in this context, can't be said to be entirely reliable. A) He no longer lived with Sheila. B) He was an atheist so the very mention of "God" was probably anathema to him.
You still have not told us from where you received the knowledge that Sheilahad been studying the Bible with June.
You along with Caroline apply an unbalanced, non-objective and blatently preferential standards to the evidence. You argue that Jeremy is guilty because of what person A B C and D said and so
forth, but when presented with witness statements of equal if not more validity that seems to cast doubt on Jeremy's conviction you find excuses to ignore the evidence such as its not definitive or in-depth enough and come up with any rational to downplay its significance or at best you may GRUDGINGLY admit the evidence is more than adequate; Whereas you ENTHUSIASTICALLY point out (and often greatly exaggerate) not definitive, vague and even scarcely credible statements from people that seem to point to Jeremy being the guilty party.
Thus it is a clear double standard whereby for you the standards for evidence implicating Jeremy is lenient and accommodating but the standard for evidence in Jeremy's defence is strictly unharmonious rigid and convoluted.
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You along with Caroline apply an unbalanced, non-objective and blatently preferential standards to the evidence. You argue that Jeremy is guilty because of what person A B C and D said and so
forth, but when presented with witness statements of equal if not more validity that seems to cast doubt on Jeremy's conviction you find excuses to ignore the evidence such as its not definitive or in-depth enough and come up with any rational to downplay its significance or at best you may GRUDGINGLY admit the evidence is more than adequate; Whereas you ENTHUSIASTICALLY point out (and often greatly exaggerate) not definitive, vague and even scarcely credible statements from people that seem to point to Jeremy being the guilty party.
Thus it is a clear double standard whereby for you the standards for evidence implicating Jeremy is lenient and accommodating but the standard for evidence in Jeremy's defence is strictly unharmonious rigid and convoluted.
Clearly you just make things up! You're now deciding why YOU think WE think he's guilty. You've gone off on some weird tangent and are trying to downplay the fact that you can't back-up your own argument. Not sure how you think Sheila must be guilty beause she might have read the bible at some point?
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
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You along with Caroline apply an unbalanced, non-objective and blatently preferential standards to the evidence. You argue that Jeremy is guilty because of what person A B C and D said and so
forth, but when presented with witness statements of equal if not more validity that seems to cast doubt on Jeremy's conviction you find excuses to ignore the evidence such as its not definitive or in-depth enough and come up with any rational to downplay its significance or at best you may GRUDGINGLY admit the evidence is more than adequate; Whereas you ENTHUSIASTICALLY point out (and often greatly exaggerate) not definitive, vague and even scarcely credible statements from people that seem to point to Jeremy being the guilty party.
Thus it is a clear double standard whereby for you the standards for evidence implicating Jeremy is lenient and accommodating but the standard for evidence in Jeremy's defence is strictly unharmonious rigid and convoluted.
I'd say exactly the same of you. You're cherry picking. Jeremy is guilty for no OTHER reason than than his guilt. The most I've done is a very local straw poll in which one out of five people -all of whom had connections to the family- believed Jeremy innocent and mused that it could be a microcosm of a wider viewpoint.
I can quite see why you might not want anyone to look too closely at those pieces of evidence which aren't definitive -I might say I did exactly the same when I thought Jeremy was innocent- and you seem to conveniently forget that I've argued with Adam from both sides.
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I'd say exactly the same of you. You're cherry picking. Jeremy is guilty for no OTHER reason than than his guilt. The most I've done is a very local straw poll in which one out of five people -all of whom had connections to the family- believed Jeremy innocent and mused that it could be a microcosm of a wider viewpoint.
I can quite see why you might not want anyone to look too closely at those pieces of evidence which aren't definitive -I might say I did exactly the same when I thought Jeremy was innocent- and you seem to conveniently forget that I've argued with Adam from both sides.
We have both argued the case from both sides but even when I thought him innocent, there were things I wasn't comfortable with. I am not comfortable about the silencer now that I believe he's guilty but regardless of whether there is any forensic evidence - there is too much circumstantial evidence for him to be innocent and Jeremy isn't good at answering difficult questions - an innocent man wouldn't have a problem.
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We have both argued the case from both sides but even when I thought him innocent, there were things I wasn't comfortable with. I am not comfortable about the silencer now that I believe he's guilty but regardless of whether there is any forensic evidence - there is too much circumstantial evidence for him to be innocent and Jeremy isn't good at answering difficult questions - an innocent man wouldn't have a problem.
I'm not entirely convinced that David1819 -a fan of Queen Victoria, maybe?- believes Jeremy is innocent.
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I'd say exactly the same of you. You're cherry picking. Jeremy is guilty for no OTHER reason than than his guilt. The most I've done is a very local straw poll in which one out of five people -all of whom had connections to the family- believed Jeremy innocent and mused that it could be a microcosm of a wider viewpoint.
I can quite see why you might not want anyone to look too closely at those pieces of evidence which aren't definitive -I might say I did exactly the same when I thought Jeremy was innocent- and you seem to conveniently forget that I've argued with Adam from both sides.
My objectivity is razor sharp, I don't conclude Jeremy is guilty or innocent because the evidence is not satisfactory hence why the case is controversial to this day.
If I could prove Jeremy is guilty and when I say prove guilty I mean to the standard that no one takes any interest in this case because the uncertainty is effectively gone and his campaign team abandons him etc then that would be great however I cant see that happening and there is 0.01% there is anything hidden waiting to be exposed that will reveal all one way or another.
Too many people are against Jeremy on this forum, and when asked to give a good argument for his guilt they produce no valid answer so I tend argue in his favour for the sake of balance. If you read my conversations with Holly on the red forum you will see that I point out the possibility of Jeremy's guilt to her on multiple occasions, I am no partisan or fanatic the idea of Jeremy being guilty does cross my mind you know ;D
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My objectivity is razor sharp, I don't conclude Jeremy is guilty or innocent because the evidence is not satisfactory hence why the case is controversial to this day.
If I could prove Jeremy is guilty and when I say prove guilty I mean to the standard that no one takes any interest in this case because the uncertainty is effectively gone and his campaign team abandons him etc then that would be great however I cant see that happening and there is 0.01% there is anything hidden waiting to be exposed that will reveal all one way or another.
Too many people are against Jeremy on this forum, and when asked to give a good argument for his guilt they produce no valid answer so I tend argue in his favour for the sake of balance. If you read my conversations with Holly on the red forum you will see that I point out the possibility of Jeremy's guilt to her on multiple occasions, I am no partisan or fanatic
the idea of Jeremy being guilty does cross my mind you know ;D
-------------you've got to say that haven't you ? ::)
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My objectivity is razor sharp, I don't conclude Jeremy is guilty or innocent because the evidence is not satisfactory hence why the case is controversial to this day.
If I could prove Jeremy is guilty and when I say prove guilty I mean to the standard that no one takes any interest in this case because the uncertainty is effectively gone and his campaign team abandons him etc then that would be great however I cant see that happening and there is 0.01% there is anything hidden waiting to be exposed that will reveal all one way or another.
Too many people are against Jeremy on this forum, and when asked to give a good argument for his guilt they produce no valid answer so I tend argue in his favour for the sake of balance. If you read my conversations with Holly on the red forum you will see that I point out the possibility of Jeremy's guilt to her on multiple occasions, I am no partisan or fanatic the idea of Jeremy being guilty does cross my mind you know ;D
It sounds as if you don't care strongly, one way or the other and your arguments, as a result, lack sincerity.
That's a somewhat immovable wall you're banging your head against. You demand definitive proof of guilt but you can't provide definitive proof of innocence.
Would you not expect that people are likely to be against a person they believed guilty of a heinous crime? Many here are way more serious than you, about their beliefs, on which ever side they fall. By flitting from forum to forum for arguments' sake, you reduce it to some kind of joke.
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My objectivity is razor sharp, I don't conclude Jeremy is guilty or innocent because the evidence is not satisfactory hence why the case is controversial to this day.
If I could prove Jeremy is guilty and when I say prove guilty I mean to the standard that no one takes any interest in this case because the uncertainty is effectively gone and his campaign team abandons him etc then that would be great however I cant see that happening and there is 0.01% there is anything hidden waiting to be exposed that will reveal all one way or another.
Too many people are against Jeremy on this forum, and when asked to give a good argument for his guilt they produce no valid answer so I tend argue in his favour for the sake of balance. If you read my conversations with Holly on the red forum you will see that I point out the possibility of Jeremy's guilt to her on multiple occasions, I am no partisan or fanatic the idea of Jeremy being guilty does cross my mind you know ;D
Good for you - but stick to the facts! ;)
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We have both argued the case from both sides but even when I thought him innocent, there were things I wasn't comfortable with. I am not comfortable about the silencer now that I believe he's guilty but regardless of whether there is any forensic evidence - there is too much circumstantial evidence for him to be innocent and Jeremy isn't good at answering difficult questions - an innocent man wouldn't have a problem.
In regards to you messaging Jeremy, In my opinion you questioning him on various if not many details about the case made him feel you were questioning him on a presumption of guilt. And if you cant prove your innocence why would he bother spending time answering you? You clearly asked him difficult questions thus exposing your motive was not to support him
He will have people writing to him allot with covert motives to try and pick at him. Even well meaning supporters tell me they sometimes write to him and get no reply, So either he has no time or he is paranoid about their motives.
You might want to try writing to him again with a different name/address and use a different tone and be patient building rappor, You will have to manipulate Jeremy into thinking you are on his side 100% otherwise he wont bother, guilty or innocent he has better things to do.
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.......So either he has no time ............ he has better things to do.
Seems unlikely. :P
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In regards to you messaging Jeremy, In my opinion you questioning him on various if not many details about the case made him feel you were questioning him on a presumption of guilt. And if you cant prove your innocence why would he bother spending time answering you? You clearly asked him difficult questions thus exposing your motive was not to support him
He will have people writing to him allot with covert motives to try and pick at him. Even well meaning supporters tell me they sometimes write to him and get no reply, So either he has no time or he is paranoid about their motives.
You might want to try writing to him again with a different name/address and use a different tone and be patient building rappor, You will have to manipulate Jeremy into thinking you are on his side 100% otherwise he wont bother, guilty or innocent he has better things to do.
Given that you have read NONE of the letters I sent your opinion is as worthy as your claim that June and Sheila read the bible together.
You might want to write to him yourself and apply your own advice. Although I have to say, Jeremy isn't a celebrity and has nothing better to do.
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Given that you have read NONE of the letters I sent your opinion is as worthy as your claim that June and Sheila read the bible together.
You might want to write to him yourself and apply your own advice. Although I have to say, Jeremy isn't a celebrity and has nothing better to do.
suit yourself
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Seems unlikely. :P
Jobs to earn money, Jobs to keep privileges etc
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Jobs to earn money, Jobs to keep privileges etc
Are you really trying to argue that Jeremy has a shortage of time?
Okay then. :P
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suit yourself
I always do!
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Given that you have read NONE of the letters I sent your opinion is as worthy as your claim that June and Sheila read the bible together.
You might want to write to him yourself and apply your own advice. Although I have to say, Jeremy isn't a celebrity and has nothing better to do.
have you put your corospondence on the forum.
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have you put your corospondence on the forum.
Why would I do that? I have posted various salient points but I wouldn't post a whole letter.
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why put them here. so we can all read them then could judge his faluire to reply much more clearly.
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why put them here. so we can all read them then could judge his faluire to reply much more clearly.
You must be joking! Write to him yourself and post your own letters. I have posted the relevant pieces when necessary. Talk about being nosey! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You must be joking! Write to him yourself and post your own letters. I have posted the relevant pieces when necessary. Talk about being nosey! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
why not put them up you can take your personal details off easly.
and as i said it would be much easiror to judge his falure to reply.
i have no real desire to talk him.
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why not put them up you can take your personal details off easly.
and as i said it would be much easiror to judge his falure to reply.
i have no real desire to talk him.
I surprised that you can't see anything wrong with your request - it won't be happening, like I said, write to him yourself. I'll give you a clue though - for the failure to reply, there was no letter hence it was 'a failure' to reply! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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i certanly cant see anything wrong with that request seing ass your saying to people well youve never read the letters why not give them a chance to.
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I think the religion bit was used as a prop during certain times in Sheila's behaviour,particularly when she was being confronted or to get out of a situation. Whichever way you look at it,it was more a cry for help than the fact that she was,herself,religious.
There can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life.
Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate.
Therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally.
Therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51.
I would be surprised if Jeremy knew the significance of Psalm 51- but for all we know he MIGHT have done.
It is more likely that Sheila knew than Jeremy knew - but both are possible.
Almost the only fact i am certain of in this case is that whoever committed the murders beyond doubt knew the significance of Psalm 51 ...
According to the 2002 Appeal Court Judges what happened is this :
The Bible was open at Psalm 51 and had blood on the page ...
The Bible was then closed - they know this because on the facing page was an identical bloodstain - so it MUST have been closed to cause this identical stain on both pages ...
The Bible was then found open on a different page - if you go by the crime scene photos - because in the photos it is clear it was not open at Psalm 51 - there were too many pages on either side of the open section for it to have been left open at Psalm 51 ...
Make of it what you will but if Jeremy or a third party killer had left it open they would have surely left it open on Psalm 51 - after all Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ...
Much more likely is that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51 - that is how the blood got on that particular page - she then either :
a) turned to another page of the Bible
b) closed the Bible and then dropped it - it then fell open at another page ...
The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it ...
I am however obviously aware that there is a lot of other evidence than just the Bible to consider in this case ...
If you don't get 100% what i am saying about the Bible then with the greatest of respect you ARE missing the point - i am not wrong about this in any way shape or form ...
I am happy to answer any questions about this or to try and explain what i mean more clearly if you want - but don't make the mistake of thinking i am wrong about the Bible - because i am not ...
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There can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life.
Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate.
Therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally.
Therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51.
I would be surprised if Jeremy knew the significance of Psalm 51- but for all we know he MIGHT have done.
It is more likely that Sheila knew than Jeremy knew - but both are possible.
Almost the only fact i am certain of in this case is that whoever committed the murders beyond doubt knew the significance of Psalm 51 ...
According to the 2002 Appeal Court Judges what happened is this :
The Bible was open at Psalm 51 and had blood on the page ...
The Bible was then closed - they know this because on the facing page was an identical bloodstain - so it MUST have been closed to cause this identical stain on both pages ...
The Bible was then found open on a different page - if you go by the crime scene photos - because in the photos it is clear it was not open at Psalm 51 - there were too many pages on either side of the open section for it to have been left open at Psalm 51 ...
Make of it what you will but if Jeremy or a third party killer had left it open they would have surely left it open on Psalm 51 - after all Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ...
Much more likely is that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51 - that is how the blood got on that particular page - she then either :
a) turned to another page of the Bible
b) closed the Bible and then dropped it - it then fell open at another page ...
The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it ...
I am however obviously aware that there is a lot of other evidence than just the Bible to consider in this case ...
If you don't get 100% what i am saying about the Bible then with the greatest of respect you ARE missing the point - i am not wrong about this in any way shape or form ...
I am happy to answer any questions about this or to try and explain what i mean more clearly if you want - but don't make the mistake of thinking i am wrong about the Bible - because i am not ...
Wow Sherlock I am impressed. You have clearly done allot of homework on the case now.
To be honest when I saw your name pop up I was expecting some lunacy like Your Sweeney Theory not a well thought out logical argument like this. Well done :))
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We have both argued the case from both sides but even when I thought him innocent, there were things I wasn't comfortable with. I am not comfortable about the silencer now that I believe he's guilty but regardless of whether there is any forensic evidence - there is too much circumstantial evidence for him to be innocent and Jeremy isn't good at answering difficult questions - an innocent man wouldn't have a problem.
If the silencer was planted by David Boutflour - which i have reason to believe it was - then it is possible the relatives persuaded Julie that Jeremy did it - and persuaded themselves that he could not be allowed to get away with it - this could well explain Julies "confession" ...
As i have explained in previous posts it is perfectly possible Sheila may have had a shower after the murders ...
Without the silencer evidence and Julies "confession" and with the possibility of Sheila having had a shower to "wash away her sins" - what evidence of Jeremy's guilt would be left ?
Not a lot at all by my calculations ...
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The bible was an obvious and easy plant by Bamber.
Saying Sheila went crazy because of an alleged supper conversation was incredibly weak. As confirmed by the judge. So Bamber tried to bulk up his frame with the bible, as confirmed by Bob Miller.
There is no evidence Sheila read the bible. If she did, she would have her own. She certainly wouldn't take June's, who she had just killed. The bible frowns upon murder suicide. So she got any ideas from more extreme religious books, which would be next to her instead.
My recent thread shows Sheila's murder / suicide had to be pre planned. So she would have done her reading beforehand.
Forensically, the bible provides a mountain of incriminating evidence against Bamber. Which has been posted on this thread.
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The bible was an obvious and easy plant by Bamber.
Saying Sheila went crazy because of an alleged supper conversation was incredibly weak. As confirmed by the judge. So Bamber tried to bulk up his frame with the bible, as confirmed by Bob Miller.
There is no evidence Sheila read the bible. If she did, she would have her own. She certainly wouldn't take June's, who she had just killed. The bible frowns upon murder suicide. So she got any ideas from more extreme religious books, which would be next to her instead.
My recent thread shows Sheila's murder / suicide had to be pre planned. So she would have done her reading beforehand.
Forensically, the bible provides a mountain of incriminating evidence against Bamber. Which has been posted on this thread.
What on earth are you basing this on - please explain ...
As you admit you know next to nothing about the Bible or religion ...
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If the silencer was planted by David Boutflour - which i have reason to believe it was - then it is possible the relatives persuaded Julie that Jeremy did it - and persuaded themselves that he could not be allowed to get away with it - this could well explain Julies "confession" ...
As i have explained in previous posts it is perfectly possible Sheila may have had a shower after the murders ...
Without the silencer evidence and Julies "confession" and with the possibility of Sheila having had a shower to "wash away her sins" - what evidence of Jeremy's guilt would be left ?
Not a lot at all by my calculations ...
There is a mountain of forensic and circumstantial evidence against Bamber. Probably more than in 99% of other cases.
There is one alive suspect who had several motives and knew there was something wrong at the farm.
It is impossible to explain how Sheila committed the massacre. Unless you wish to attempt to prove me wrong.
It's easy to say how Bamber did it. To match the crime scene. I know, my post is on the forum
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The bible was an obvious and easy plant by Bamber.
Saying Sheila went crazy because of an alleged supper conversation was incredibly weak. As confirmed by the judge. So Bamber tried to bulk up his frame with the bible, as confirmed by Bob Miller.
There is no evidence Sheila read the bible. If she did, she would have her own. She certainly wouldn't take June's, who she had just killed. The bible frowns upon murder suicide. So she got any ideas from more extreme religious books, which would be next to her instead.
My recent thread shows Sheila's murder / suicide had to be pre planned. So she would have done her reading beforehand.
Forensically, the bible provides a mountain of incriminating evidence against Bamber. Which has been posted on this thread.
I have NEVER said or believed that ...
If Sheila did it it because of 2 reasons :
a) Her mental health problems
b) the side effects of the medication she was on - i have researched the side effects of these types of medications and this type of out of character murderous behaviour is a known possible side effect - research it yourself BEFORE replying negatively please ...
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Forensically, the bible provides a mountain of incriminating evidence against Bamber. Which has been posted on this thread.
Like Sheila's fingerprints found on the bible?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-whVHET9LEX4/UPu2KikYDUI/AAAAAAAAADw/RlwgWOIQ4vM/s1600/504975715.jpg)
I am sure this already has a place in your "forensic library" ::)
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The bible was an obvious and easy plant by Bamber.
Saying Sheila went crazy because of an alleged supper conversation was incredibly weak. As confirmed by the judge. So Bamber tried to bulk up his frame with the bible, as confirmed by Bob Miller.
There is no evidence Sheila read the bible. If she did, she would have her own. She certainly wouldn't take June's, who she had just killed. The bible frowns upon murder suicide. So she got any ideas from more extreme religious books, which would be next to her instead.
My recent thread shows Sheila's murder / suicide had to be pre planned. So she would have done her reading beforehand.
Forensically, the bible provides a mountain of incriminating evidence against Bamber. Which has been posted on this thread.
You admit yourself to knowing NOTHING about the Bible - and with respect your point here is not only wrong it is logically so far out as to be humorous - you are VERY wrong in what you say here ...
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Like Sheila's fingerprints found on the bible?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-whVHET9LEX4/UPu2KikYDUI/AAAAAAAAADw/RlwgWOIQ4vM/s1600/504975715.jpg)
I am sure this already has a place in your "forensic library" ::)
Where does it state that it was Sheila's? Could have been June's!
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The bible was an obvious and easy plant by Bamber.
Saying Sheila went crazy because of an alleged supper conversation was incredibly weak. As confirmed by the judge. So Bamber tried to bulk up his frame with the bible, as confirmed by Bob Miller.
There is no evidence Sheila read the bible. If she did, she would have her own. She certainly wouldn't take June's, who she had just killed. The bible frowns upon murder suicide. So she got any ideas from more extreme religious books, which would be next to her instead.
My recent thread shows Sheila's murder / suicide had to be pre planned. So she would have done her reading beforehand.
Forensically, the bible provides a mountain of incriminating evidence against Bamber. Which has been posted on this thread.
What forensic evidence ? Your logic is on a par with your knowledge of the Bible and religion ie zero points on both counts ...
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I have NEVER said or believed that ...
If Sheila did it it because of 2 reasons :
a) Her mental health problems
b) the side effects of the medication she was on - i have researched the side effects of these types of medications and this type of out of character murderous behaviour is a known possible side effect - research it yourself BEFORE replying negatively please ...
Do you believe Sheila pre planned the massacre ?
Or she suddenly woke up, got up, woke up Neville, went into a rage which Neville amazingly couldn't stop. So he errr rang Bamber !
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How did the bible end up on top of Sheila's blood ?
It must have been after someone pulled her legs after the second shot ;D
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What forensic evidence ? Your logic is on a par with your knowledge of the Bible and religion ie zero points on both counts ...
You obvioisly haven't read large chunks of this thread. Simply dropping in with you're statements now and again.
The bible on it's own is enough to convict Bamber. However there is a mountain of other incriminating forensic evidence.
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Do you believe Sheila pre planned the massacre ?
Or she suddenly woke up, got up, woke up Neville, went into a rage which Neville amazingly couldn't stop. So he errr rang Bamber !
No i do not believe Sheila pre planned the murder ...
If Sheila committed the murders then it seems most likely that she was running about the house with the gun - but had not shot anybody ...
At that point Neville phoned Jeremy expecting that between them they could calm her down - maybe Nevilles normal ability to calm Sheila down wasn't working - and he assumed that Jeremy might be able to help out ..
Sheila shot June upstairs whilst Neville was phoning Jeremy - he therefore hang up and instantly dialled the Police ...
Having spoke to the Police he then ran straight upstairs to the bedroom to help out ...
Sheila then shot him 4 times in the bedroom ...
He started to run back downstairs ...
Sheila shot him on the stairs - once ...
She then shot him 3 more times in the kitchen and battered him with the gun ...
This is only a theory of course - can you see any holes in it ?
Is there any reason any one why that chain of events could not have taken place ?
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You obvioisly haven't read large chunks of this thread. Simply dropping in with you're statements now and again.
The bible on it's own is enough to convict Bamber. However there is a mountain of other incriminating forensic evidence.
Only in YOUR mind Adam ...
What forensic evidence Adam ? Look up the word forensic in a dictionary ...
And then tell me what FORENSIC evidence there was ...
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Only in YOUR mind Adam ...
What forensic evidence Adam ? Look up the word forensic in a dictionary ...
And then tell me what FORENSIC evidence there was ...
Blood, finger prints and a possible palm print. Someone also closed the bible when the blood was wet because there is a partial mirror image of the finger prints. This doesn't point necessarily to Jeremy but Adam is right about there being forensic evidence - just not that it could have convicted Jeremy.
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How did the bible end up on top of Sheila's blood ?
It must have been after someone pulled her legs after the second shot ;D
If the blood underneath the Bible was Sheilas (how do you know it was ?) then ...
She shot herself once with the Bible on her chest ...
She bled on to the carpet ...
She shot herself for the second time shortly afterwards ...
The Bible fell from her chest to the floor either just before or just after the second shot ...
When it fell it opened up as per the crime scene photos ...
Any holes in that theory Adam ?
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Blood, finger prints and a possible palm print. Someone also closed the bible when the blood was wet because there is a partial mirror image of the finger prints. This doesn't point necessarily to Jeremy but Adam is right about there being forensic evidence - just not that it could have convicted Jeremy.
There was as you say certain forensics found - but nothing that could help in identifying who did it ...
Adam was totally wrong therefore to say that there was INCRIMINATING forensic evidence ...
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No i do not believe Sheila pre planned the murder ...
If Sheila committed the murders then it seems most likely that she was running about the house with the gun - but had not shot anybody ...
At that point Neville phoned Jeremy expecting that between them they could calm her down - maybe Nevilles normal ability to calm Sheila down wasn't working - and he assumed that Jeremy might be able to help out ..
Sheila shot June upstairs whilst Neville was phoning Jeremy - he therefore hang up and instantly dialled the Police ...
Having spoke to the Police he then ran straight upstairs to the bedroom to help out ...
Sheila then shot him 4 times in the bedroom ...
He started to run back downstairs ...
Sheila shot him on the stairs - once ...
She then shot him 3 more times in the kitchen and battered him with the gun ...
This is only a theory of course - can you see any holes in it ?
Is there any reason any one why that chain of events could not have taken place ?
Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
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Where does it state that it was Sheila's? Could have been June's!
The reference number is Shelia's fingerprint the same print and reference number used to identify her print ON the gun!
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
Someone was running about the house with the gun - could well have been Sheila ...
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Just re read Sherlocks post.
I've never heard a poster say Neville heard Sheila firing upstairs shots while he was on the phone to Bamber. Then rather than run upstairs, Neville then spends at least 5 minutrs phoning the police !
Sheila will be out of bullets. And June dead. But at least Neville can restrain Sheila upstairs, can't he ?
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The reference number is Shelia's fingerprint the same print and reference number used to identify her print ON the gun!
I have argued long and hard that Sheila's prints and palm print were on the bible David - I am winding you up! ::) - I knew you would bite! ;) ;D
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
Her mental health and the side effects of the medication ...
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
We don't know this - in fact Neville was in the habit of relaxing downstairs late at night - he might well have been awake downstairs when Sheila started going mad ...
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
In YOUR mind Adam - not mine -he might well have phoned Jeremy before Sheila started shooting - obviously not after though ...
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Sherlock my window thread today has Bamber standing at the bottom of the stairs. Holding a loaded rifle. Everyone asleep.
His cycle ride and window entrance would be simple and quiet. Threads created.
Feel free to tell me what problems Bamber would now encounter.
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
Not true - he says Neville phoned him about 3.10 or so - meaning Neville would have phoned the Police at about 3.11 or 3.12 ...
It was Jeremy who phoned the Police at 3.26 - i believe the call lasted 10 minutes and ended at 3.36 ...
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Not true - he says Neville phoned him about 3.10 or so - meaning Neville would have phoned the Police at about 3.11 or 3.12 ...
It was Jeremy who phoned the Police at 3.26 - i believe the call lasted 10 minutes and ended at 3.36 ...
The OS says Neville called the police at 3.26am.
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Not true - he says Neville phoned him about 3.10 or so - meaning Neville would have phoned the Police at about 3.11 or 3.12 ...
It was Jeremy who phoned the Police at 3.26 - i believe the call lasted 10 minutes and ended at 3.36 ...
Well that's strange because Jeremy is now arguing that he called the police at 03:36! Wonder why when Jeremy called the police, he wasn't told that the incident had already been reported? ::)
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
Neville would have called the Police because the incident had just changed from a manageable within the family situation to a situation requiring Police involvement ...
I am saying that Neville heard the first shot whilst on the phone to Jeremy - he therefore hung up so as to phone the Police for help ...
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
Not true ...
The loaded gun had according to Jeremy between 7 and 10 bullets in it ...
The first 3 or 4 were fired at June ...
The next 3 to 7 bullets were fired into Neville ...
A reload in the kitchen and then Neville was finished off and possibly June was shot again - if not already shot 4 times by then ...
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Neville would have called the Police because the incident had just changed from a manageable within the family situation to a situation requiring Police involvement ...
I am saying that Neville heard the first shot whilst on the phone to Jeremy - he therefore hung up so as to phone the Police for help ...
Sheila starts shooting. Neville hears this. So cuts off his call to Bamber to.....phone the police !
If Neville was so frightened of Sheila firing a weak rifle and had to call the police. Why did he go upstairs ? And why did Sheila still have four bullets left ? Sheila would have used them all on June and the twins.
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
Neville Bamber was a brave man and probably thought he could tackle Sheila - he took that chance and it didn't pay off ...
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Not true ...
The loaded gun had according to Jeremy between 7 and 10 bullets in it ...
The first 3 or 4 were fired at June ...
The next 3 to 7 bullets were fired into Neville ...
A reload in the kitchen and then Neville was finished off and possibly June was shot again - if not already shot 4 times by then ...
No one knows the order of the bullets upstairs.
June and the twins were shot 15 times.
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
He could have run downstairs to simply take cover - having already been shot 3 times - it was in fact the most sensible place to run ...
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Neville Bamber was a brave man and probably thought he could tackle Sheila - he took that chance and it didn't pay off ...
Neville was so brave he rang the police after his family started getting shot.
But over five minutes later he wanders upstairs unprotected. He probably assummed Sheila in her rage had used up all the bullets.
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Sheila was running about the house with a weak rifle she had never used before. I suppose we have all been guilty of running around our parents house holding a rifle, bare footed and in our PJ's at least once in our lives. Haven't we ?
She was bare foot in her nightie. So had obviously gone to bed. What made her wake up and go on this horrific rampage. It certainly wasn't the alleged supper conversation which the judge dismissed. Or anyone else in WHF. They were all asleep.
Bit of a surprise no one else woke while Sheila was running around the house.
Oh yes, Bamber was a real help when he eventually answered Neville's 'mysterious' call. There are 40 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. Thread created.
Bamber is saying Neville phoned him at 3.10am. Then Neville phoned the police at 3.26am. Or is it 3.36am. Bamber keeps changing times. Anyway why did Neville call the police if Sheila started shooting when Neville was on the phone to Bamber. Are you saying Neville heard the shots but still phoned the police. Or didn't hear the shots but still cut his call off to Bamber abruptly.
If Sheila started shooting while Neville was on the phone, she would be out of bullets by the time Neville got upstairs. Especially if Neville called the police while the shooting took place.
Neville runs upstairs, unprotected. And allows Sheila to get within inches of him and shoot him four times. He then runs downstairs for some unexplained reason. Rather than confront Sheila upstairs in an attempt to save his wife, grand children, daughter and himself.
He had bravely confronted Sheila and as any fighter pilot would know - getting the "enemy" to pursue you whilst moving away from your "friends" is the best way to protect them - by getting Sheila to pursue him down the stairs he was physically taking her further away from his family ..
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He could have run downstairs to simply take cover - having already been shot 3 times - it was in fact the most sensible place to run ...
How Bamber committed the massacre is much more straight forward. Thread already created.
No ridiculous scenarios that simply did not happen.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6549.msg295006.html#msg295006
Page 1.
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Just re read Sherlocks post.
I've never heard a poster say Neville heard Sheila firing upstairs shots while he was on the phone to Bamber. Then rather than run upstairs, Neville then spends at least 5 minutrs phoning the police !
Sheila will be out of bullets. And June dead. But at least Neville can restrain Sheila upstairs, can't he ?
From the details of his alleged call to the Police it might well have taken 1 minute - not 5
He may well have heard a shot but still not believed the shot had actually been at a person - he probably believed she had just fired in the air - serious enough to instantly call the Police - but not so serious as to run upstairs without phoning the Police first ...
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From the details of his alleged call to the Police it might well have taken 1 minute - not 5
He may well have heard a shot but still not believed the shot had actually been at a person - he probably believed she had just fired in the air - serious enough to instantly call the Police - but not so serious as to run upstairs without phoning the Police first ...
So Sheila fired just one shot upstairs now. In the air. In her rage. So he didn't hear any other shots upstairs
Bamber said his call to the police lasted about 10 minutes. Neville called the same police station.
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Sherlock my window thread today has Bamber standing at the bottom of the stairs. Holding a loaded rifle. Everyone asleep.
His cycle ride and window entrance would be simple and quiet. Threads created.
Feel free to tell me what problems Bamber would now encounter.
As you say Adam it is possible that Jeremy committed the murders ...
But as i say Adam - it is ALSO perfectly possible that Sheila did ...
Just because it is possible that Jeremy committed the murders does NOT mean that he in fact did so ...
He was convicted largely because it appeared that Sheila could not have done it - but as i have said it is in fact very possible that she could have done ...
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The OS says Neville called the police at 3.26am.
Don't believe everything you read on the OS ...
Jeremy phoned the Police at 3.26
He said it took him some considerable minutes between receiving the call from Neville and actually phoning the Police himself ...
Nevilles phone call if it took place would definitely have been well before 3.26 ...
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Well that's strange because Jeremy is now arguing that he called the police at 03:36! Wonder why when Jeremy called the police, he wasn't told that the incident had already been reported? ::)
Jeremy, the Police and Julie Mugford and friends all gave highly unreliable timings for the phone calls -
Jeremy was confused about the timings of the calls ...
The Police say the times as recorded on the log/s was down to a clerical error ...
Julie and friends all gave different times initially and then changed their version of the times later ...
However Jeremy was clear that there was a lot of minutes between Neville phoning him and him then phoning the Police ...
I believe Jeremy most likely phoned the Police at 3.26 and the call ended at 3.36 - but that is just my best guess based on the evidence ...
I therefore calculate that Neville would have called Jeremy at about 3.10 and the Police around 3.11 or 3.12 ...
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Don't believe everything you read on the OS ...
Jeremy phoned the Police at 3.26
He said it took him some considerable minutes between receiving the call from Neville and actually phoning the Police himself ...
Nevilles phone call if it took place would definitely have been well before 3.26 ...
I don't believe what I read on the OS. However it says Bamber called the police at 3.36am.
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Like Sheila's fingerprints found on the bible?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-whVHET9LEX4/UPu2KikYDUI/AAAAAAAAADw/RlwgWOIQ4vM/s1600/504975715.jpg)
I am sure this already has a place in your "forensic library" ::)
This is a reference to a form such as the one below. On the form below only prints are noted as being found on the rifle, yet a number of items are listed as being tested.
I suspect the same thing will be true of the form which is referenced in your attachement, i.e. the bible will be listed but not as having positive prints.
A case of passing something off as saying something that it does not.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4452.0;attach=33007;image)
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So Sheila fired just one shot upstairs now. In the air. In her rage. So he didn't hear any other shots upstairs
Bamber said his call to the police lasted about 10 minutes. Neville called the same police station.
If you actually read my posts you will realise how silly some of your comments appear - try to look at what other posters are actually saying before replying ...
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As you say Adam it is possible that Jeremy committed the murders ...
But as i say Adam - it is ALSO perfectly possible that Sheila did ...
Just because it is possible that Jeremy committed the murders does NOT mean that he in fact did so ...
He was convicted largely because it appeared that Sheila could not have done it - but as i have said it is in fact very possible that she could have done ...
There is no plausible scenario of how Sheila did it.
You are making things up as you go along. Now saying Sheila fired just one shot in the air upatairs. And that Neville only spent one minute on the phone to the police.
Bamber's committing the massacre is straight forward. I don't know why people try to complicate things by claiming Sheila could do it.
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If you actually read my posts you will realise how silly some of your comments appear - try to look at what other posters are actually saying before replying ...
You said Nevilles call to the police would last one minute. He called the same station as Bamber, who said his call lasted ten minutes.
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You said Nevilles call to the police would last one minute. He called the same station as Bamber, who said his call lasted ten minutes.
I was talking about your bizzare and wrong claim regarding Sheila having fired into the air ...
I never said that Adam - you did ...
I actually said this might have been what Neville thought had happened when he heard the first shot ...
Which is why i said you need to pay attention to what other posters are actually saying if you don't want to appear silly ...
Anyway good night Adam - and may God bless you ...
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This is a reference to a form such as the one below. On the form below only prints are noted as being found on the rifle, yet a number of items are listed as being tested.
I suspect the same thing will be true of the form which is referenced in your attachement, i.e. the bible will be listed but not as having positive prints.
A case of passing something off as saying something that it does not.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4452.0;attach=33007;image)
This form you have posted makes no sense.
Time of arrival is dated 7/8/85 yet it mentions a silencer not discovered until supposedly the 10/8/85.
Then it mentions Mathew Macdonald arrested yet he not arrested until a much later date around September. Then you have 25 shell casings mentioned on a report for positive results? ???
Since the police made efforts to deny the existence of photographs of the bible its perfectly reasonable that they make efforts to deny the existence of fingerprint results for the same purpose.
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This form you have posted makes no sense.
Time of arrival is dated 7/8/85 yet it mentions a silencer not discovered until supposedly the 10/8/85.
Then it mentions Mathew Macdonald arrested yet he not arrested until a much later date around September. Then you have 25 shell casings mentioned on a report for positive results? ???
Since the police made efforts to deny the existence of photographs of the bible its perfectly reasonable that they make efforts to deny the existence of fingerprint results for the same purpose.
I posted the form to show an example of the type of form which was referred to in the cropped attachment that you posted.
The reason was to show you that the form lists a number of items that were tested, but fingerprints were only found on the rifle. Therefore, your claim that your attachment showed that the bible contained fingerprints is simply incorrect.
On a side note and a different subject, the fact that the form does not makes sense to YOU, is irrelevant. The time of arrival is the time that Davidson arrived at WHF.
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I posted the form to show an example of the type of form which was referred to in the cropped attachment that you posted.
The reason was to show you that the form lists a number of items that were tested, but fingerprints were only found on the rifle. Therefore, your claim that your attachment showed that the bible contained fingerprints is simply incorrect.
On a side note and a different subject, the fact that the form does not makes sense to YOU, is irrelevant. The time of arrival is the time that Davidson arrived at WHF.
Nonsense, just because one form has the bible absent from a list does not preclude the bible was examined for prints elsewhere or at another date.
What is important to note; if the bullet casings had been tested and no prints found would that not make a good argument that the culprit wore gloves therefore the killer is not Shelia? That sounds plausible to me. However prosecutors never used such an argument so I'm not going to jump to a conclusion here :-\
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Nonsense, just because one form has the bible absent from a list does not preclude the bible was examined for prints elsewhere or at another date.
What is important to note; if the bullet casings had been tested and no prints found would that not make a good argument that the culprit wore gloves therefore the killer is not Shelia? That sounds plausible to me. However prosecutors never used such an argument so I'm not going to jump to a conclusion here :-\
I think you are becoming a bit of a troll and trying to argue that black is white. To make your apparently feigned obtuseness worse, you are choosing to be somewhat rude with your responses, labeling people ridiculous or that they are talking nonsense.
It is quite clear that the cropped attachment that you posted:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-whVHET9LEX4/UPu2KikYDUI/AAAAAAAAADw/RlwgWOIQ4vM/s1600/504975715.jpg)
..... refers to a form where a number of items are listed as being tested for fingerprints, one of the items is noted as being the bible. The name of the form and lab reference number are also provided.
It does not however indicate whether fingerprints were actually discovered on the bible, which is what you were originally claiming.
Your responses and rudeness to myself and other members is becoming a bit boring and is a bit of a shame really.
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There can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life.
Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate.
Therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally.
Therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51.
I would be surprised if Jeremy knew the significance of Psalm 51- but for all we know he MIGHT have done.
It is more likely that Sheila knew than Jeremy knew - but both are possible.
Almost the only fact i am certain of in this case is that whoever committed the murders beyond doubt knew the significance of Psalm 51 ...
According to the 2002 Appeal Court Judges what happened is this :
The Bible was open at Psalm 51 and had blood on the page ...
The Bible was then closed - they know this because on the facing page was an identical bloodstain - so it MUST have been closed to cause this identical stain on both pages ...
The Bible was then found open on a different page - if you go by the crime scene photos - because in the photos it is clear it was not open at Psalm 51 - there were too many pages on either side of the open section for it to have been left open at Psalm 51 ...
Make of it what you will but if Jeremy or a third party killer had left it open they would have surely left it open on Psalm 51 - after all Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ...
Much more likely is that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51 - that is how the blood got on that particular page - she then either :
a) turned to another page of the Bible
b) closed the Bible and then dropped it - it then fell open at another page ...
The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it ...
I am however obviously aware that there is a lot of other evidence than just the Bible to consider in this case ...
If you don't get 100% what i am saying about the Bible then with the greatest of respect you ARE missing the point - i am not wrong about this in any way shape or form ...
I am happy to answer any questions about this or to try and explain what i mean more clearly if you want - but don't make the mistake of thinking i am wrong about the Bible - because i am not ...
Sherlock, there are several points I'd like to raise, but ONE stands out above all others.
You keep talking about how Psalm 51 is highly relevant to what happened that night and how this would be known by anyone with knowledge of the Bible. Before we go any further, I'm going to say that such a person would be FAR more likely to be June, NOT Sheila.
I think it's safe to say that I had way more religious instruction than did Sheila but I can only quote 2 Psalms and I only know the number of one of those. No prizes for guessing which, but NEITHER is a plea for forgiveness after having committed murder. Why would it be? Who of us would suspect we/family/friends would ever need to make such a request. Which of us would instil in a child, the means of asking forgiveness for having committed murder, when, if we're going to insist that certain Psalms are learned, there are so many more to choose from? It isn't a Psalm which would automatically be known, which is why, IF the page is relevant, not just being MADE to be, it would have been JUNE who was aware of it.
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The top and bottom of it is that EP didn't have a clue ! They probably picked out a page in which they thought would be relevant to a suicide case. Just because the page happened to have had blood on it didn't mean that it had been opened at that particular passage of the Bible.
Then Eureka,EP had found the clue they were looking for. What a load of tosh !
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Sherlock, there are several points I'd like to raise, but ONE stands out above all others.
You keep talking about how Psalm 51 is highly relevant to what happened that night and how this would be known by anyone with knowledge of the Bible. Before we go any further, I'm going to say that such a person would be FAR more likely to be June, NOT Sheila.
I think it's safe to say that I had way more religious instruction than did Sheila but I can only quote 2 Psalms and I only know the number of one of those. No prizes for guessing which, but NEITHER is a plea for forgiveness after having committed murder. Why would it be? Who of us would suspect we/family/friends would ever need to make such a request. Which of us would instil in a child, the means of asking forgiveness for having committed murder, when, if we're going to insist that certain Psalms are learned, there are so many more to choose from? It isn't a Psalm which would automatically be known, which is why, IF the page is relevant, not just being MADE to be, it would have been JUNE who was aware of it.
I hope we can discuss all of your points one by one - so lets start with this point first - then discuss your other points ...
I agree that June would have been far more likely to have known Psalm 51 than Sheila - she would have studied the Bible far more than most people i am sure ...
But we know that June did not commit the murders ...
And if Sheila had killed someone else in the house before June then i cannot see that even June would have started reading Psalm 51 to Sheila - highly improbable ...
So for those reasons i rule out entirely the possibility that it was June who had turned to Psalm 51 ...
And for reasons explained in previous posts i KNOW that Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ie seeking forgiveness after having committed murder ...
All we know about Sheila for sure is that she had at least some interest in religion and would have at least read some of the Bible at some point in her life - it is possible she had read or studied it a lot but equally possible she had only read / studied it in a very minor way ...
But even if she only had limited knowledge of the Bible it is perfectly conceivable that by chance one of the things she had learned was the significance of Psalm 51 and it had stuck in her mind ...
For example during religious education at school or maybe during a church sermon a teacher or Vicar had been discussing Psalm 51 and it's meaning - she might well have remembered this ...
I do doubt however that she on her own had been reading the Bible and had worked out it's significance - unless she was using a very modern translation of the Bible - this is because the old fashioned words used in the older versions (specifically the word bloodguilt) would be hard for someone of Sheilas generation to fully understand unless it was explained to her by a knowledgeable religious person ...
It is perfectly possible however that Sheila may have read a modern translation of the Bible which instead of using the word bloodguilt would have spelt it out in plain english ie "guilt for having killed someone ..."
I am very interested to hear your other points relating to my posts in this thread ...
What i have posted is of course only theory - however it seems perfectly possible to me at this point ...
If you or others can point out how where or why this theory falls down then i would be grateful ...
As you know i have an open mind as to the events of that night ...
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I hope we can discuss all of your points one by one - so lets start with this point first - then discuss your other points ...
I agree that June would have been far more likely to have known Psalm 51 than Sheila - she would have studied the Bible far more than most people i am sure ...
But we know that June did not commit the murders ...
And if Sheila had killed someone else in the house before June then i cannot see that even June would have started reading Psalm 51 to Sheila - highly improbable ...
So for those reasons i rule out entirely the possibility that it was June who had turned to Psalm 51 ...
And for reasons explained in previous posts i KNOW that Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ie seeking forgiveness after having committed murder ...
All we know about Sheila for sure is that she had at least some interest in religion and would have at least read some of the Bible at some point in her life - it is possible she had read or studied it a lot but equally possible she had only read / studied it in a very minor way ...
But even if she only had limited knowledge of the Bible it is perfectly conceivable that by chance one of the things she had learned was the significance of Psalm 51 and it had stuck in her mind ...
For example during religious education at school or maybe during a church sermon a teacher or Vicar had been discussing Psalm 51 and it's meaning - she might well have remembered this ...
I do doubt however that she on her own had been reading the Bible and had worked out it's significance - unless she was using a very modern translation of the Bible - this is because the old fashioned words used in the older versions (specifically the word bloodguilt) would be hard for someone of Sheilas generation to fully understand unless it was explained to her by a knowledgeable religious person ...
It is perfectly possible however that Sheila may have read a modern translation of the Bible which instead of using the word bloodguilt would have spelt it out in plain english ie "guilt for having killed someone ..."
I am very interested to hear your other points relating to my posts in this thread ...
What i have posted is of course only theory - however it seems perfectly possible to me at this point ...
If you or others can point out how where or why this theory falls down then i would be grateful ...
As you know i have an open mind as to the events of that night ...
-----------After 30 years ??
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The top and bottom of it is that EP didn't have a clue ! They probably picked out a page in which they thought would be relevant to a suicide case. Just because the page happened to have had blood on it didn't mean that it had been opened at that particular passage of the Bible.
Then Eureka,EP had found the clue they were looking for. What a load of tosh !
It was the only page to have blood on the actual pages - and as the 2002 Appeal Court Judges explained it had a mirror image of the blood stain on the opposite page ...
They therefore concluded that it HAD to have been opened at that page (Psalm 51) at some point on that night ...
They are of course 100% correct about that - there is NO other possibility - not even a remote one ...
So we can all be certain that at some point on that night after blood had been shed the Bible had been open at Psalm 51 ..
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-----------After 30 years ??
I am sorry but i do not have a clue by what you mean when you say "after 30 years ?"
If you can explain what you mean using other words then i will attempt to answer you ...
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It was the only page to have blood on the actual pages - and as the 2002 Appeal Court Judges explained it had a mirror image of the blood stain on the opposite page ...
They therefore concluded that it HAD to have been opened at that page (Psalm 51) at some point on that night ...
They are of course 100% correct about that - there is NO other possibility - not even a remote one ...
So we can all be certain that at some point on that night after blood had been shed the Bible had been open at Psalm 51 ..
Because I've maintained that the Bible had been thrown down as opposed to it having been placed there,it was just a fluke that it had been left open at that/those particular pages unless it had been bookmarked,otherwise those pages would not have been bloodstained.
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Plus the fact that Jeremy wouldn't have known one end of the Bible from the other-------to those saying that he'd put it there purposely.
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Because I've maintained that the Bible had been thrown down as opposed to it having been placed there,it was just a fluke that it had been left open at that/those particular pages unless it had been bookmarked,otherwise those pages would not have been bloodstained.
As i have said in a previous post - the Bible was in fact not found open at that page - the crime scene photo actually show that it was not open at that page when found - because in the photo there are too many pages either side of the open section for that to have been possible ...
As the Appeal Court Judges said - it had been open at that page at some point that night after blood had been shed ...
You are therefore very possibly right that the Bible had been thrown down - and the pages it was found open at were not at all relevant ...
However as i have said in a previous post it is perfectly conceivable that Sheila had the Bible on her chest when she shot herself the first time - and the Bible fell off her chest and opened at those random pages either just before or just after she shot herself for the second time ...
When you say it was just a fluke that it was open at Psalm 51 please bear in mind that there are roughly 1344 pages in that version of the Bible - even accounting for the fact of double pages it still leaves only a one in 672 chance that the Bible was open at Psalm 51 by coincidence - so for me i rule out entirely it being open at Psalm 51 by a fluke ...
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I am sorry but i do not have a clue by what you mean when you say "after 30 years ?"
If you can explain what you mean using other words then i will attempt to answer you ...
When you posted as having " an open mind ". Meaning that after 30 years you still don't know one way or the other ?
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As i have said in a previous post - the Bible was in fact not found open at that page - the crime scene photo actually show that it was not open at that page when found - because in the photo there are too many pages either side of the open section for that to have been possible ...
As the Appeal Court Judges said - it had been open at that page at some point that night after blood had been shed ...
You are therefore very possibly right that the Bible had been thrown down - and the pages it was found open at were not at all relevant ...
However as i have said in a previous post it is perfectly conceivable that Sheila had the Bible on her chest when she shot herself the first time - and the Bible fell off her chest and opened at those random pages either just before or just after she shot herself for the second time ...
When you say it was just a fluke that it was open at Psalm 51 please bear in mind that there are roughly 1344 pages in that version of the Bible - even accounting for the fact of double pages it still leaves only a one in 672 chance that the Bible was open at Psalm 51 by coincidence - so for me i rule out entirely it being open at Psalm 51 by a fluke ...
Ages ago, I suggested that the bible might not have been opened and closed to cause the 'mirrored blood stains', but blood had simply soaked through a number of pages, so that when it was later opened you would get the effect of the mirrored stains.
If that makes sense. :-\
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Plus the fact that Jeremy wouldn't have known one end of the Bible from the other-------to those saying that he'd put it there purposely.
We simply do not know what Jeremy's knowledge of the Bible was ...
At his public school he would have had religious education and a daily 1 hour religious assembly ...
But if it had been Jeremy then surely the Bible would have actually been found open at the significant page ie Psalm 51 - and not a random page ...
Unless he left it open at Psalm 51 on Sheila's chest and it simply slipped off her chest and fell open at the random page after he had left ...
In my opinion the Bible and Psalm 51 make it much more likely that Sheila did it than Jeremy ...
But both are a possibility ...
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Ages ago, I suggested that the bible might not have been opened and closed to cause the 'mirrored blood stains', but blood had simply soaked through a number of pages, so that when it was later opened you would get the effect of the mirrored stains.
If that makes sense. :-\
See here:
Just throwing this out there, but I've had a hard time understanding why there are mirrored blood stains on the pages of the bible, we all assume that the bible has been closed and then opened, producing this mirrored effect.
Is it not possible, or even more likely, that the blood stains were caused by soaking through pages rather than being closed and opened? Meaning the bible photographed in the open position, is not at the same page it was found.
What do you think? It would also explain the blood stain on the top right page which should be on the top left, which it would be if you turned the page.
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When you posted as having " an open mind ". Meaning that after 30 years you still don't know one way or the other ?
Exactly.
I and many many others are still unsure - as was the original 10 - 2 Jury ...
I have only been researching this case for about 4 or 5 years - and even then only on a very part time basis - my total research time probably only amounts at a guess to about 12 weeks of actual time ...
It is a very hard case to be absolutely sure on - it is a bit like an optical illusion - you look at it from one perspective and it appears obvious that Jeremy was responsible for the murders - but then you look at it from a different perspective and it seems equally clear that Sheila did it ...
Hopefully the truth will become clear in time ...
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We simply do not know what Jeremy's knowledge of the Bible was ...
At his public school he would have had religious education and a daily 1 hour religious assembly ...
But if it had been Jeremy then surely the Bible would have actually been found open at the significant page ie Psalm 51 - and not a random page ...
Unless he left it open at Psalm 51 on Sheila's chest and it simply slipped off her chest and fell open at the random page after he had left ...
In my opinion the Bible and Psalm 51 make it much more likely that Sheila did it than Jeremy ...
But both are a possibility ...
Jeremy wouldn't have studied the Bible to the extent that his mother did,whether he was taught RE at school or not. He'd probably had and heard enough of the rantings from his mother when he was growing up and too much of a good thing,just isn't in that respect.
No way would the Bible have displaced from a still,deceased person,let alone fall on the relevant page.
June would have been reading that particular Bible as it was hers,but would have been more likely to have been reading about morality rather than killing.
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Ages ago, I suggested that the bible might not have been opened and closed to cause the 'mirrored blood stains', but blood had simply soaked through a number of pages, so that when it was later opened you would get the effect of the mirrored stains.
If that makes sense. :-\
The 2002 Appeal Court Judges were sure it had in fact been open at Psalm 51 ...
Surely if the blood had soaked through it would have also soaked through onto other pages a well ...
The only page that ANY blood was found on was Psalm 51 - and an EXACT mirror image of the stain was found on the page opposite ...
It is very clear therefore that the Bible had been open at Psalm 51 after blood had been shed that night ..
You are exactly right to think this is a very important point in this case ...
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The 2002 Appeal Court Judges were sure it had in fact been open at Psalm 51 ...
Surely if the blood had soaked through it would have also soaked through onto other pages a well ...
The only page that ANY blood was found on was Psalm 51 - and an EXACT mirror image of the stain was found on the page opposite ...
It is very clear therefore that the Bible had been open at Psalm 51 after blood had been shed that night ..
You are exactly right to think this is a very important point in this case ...
I'm not convinced.
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This is a reference to a form such as the one below. On the form below only prints are noted as being found on the rifle, yet a number of items are listed as being tested.
I suspect the same thing will be true of the form which is referenced in your attachement, i.e. the bible will be listed but not as having positive prints.
A case of passing something off as saying something that it does not.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4452.0;attach=33007;image)
The 2002 appeal judgement states the following:
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
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Therefore no prints or fibres from JB as having handled it---------because he wasn't there.
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Jeremy wouldn't have studied the Bible to the extent that his mother did,whether he was taught RE at school or not. He'd probably had and heard enough of the rantings from his mother when he was growing up and too much of a good thing,just isn't in that respect.
No way would the Bible have displaced from a still,deceased person,let alone fall on the relevant page.
June would have been reading that particular Bible as it was hers,but would have been more likely to have been reading about morality rather than killing.
As i have said in a previous post the Bible was NOT found open at the relevant page (Psalm 51) - it was found open at a random page ...
What we do know is that it had been open at the relevant page (Psalm 51) at some point after blood had been shed that night ...
It was not June who had been reading Psalm 51 - i have stated in a previous post why we can rule this out ...
It is possible the Jeremy had picked up the knowledge about Psalm 51 at some point - but much more likely that Sheila had an understanding and knowledge of Psalm 51 ...
It is possible that the Bible had slipped off Sheila's chest - things like that do happen - it's also very possible that Sheila had read Psalm 51 then turned to another page (the one it was found open at) before shooting herself - leaving the Bible by her side in the position it was found ...
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I'm not convinced.
This is from the 2002 Appeal Court Judges :
407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.
408. The pages on which the heavy staining appears in these photographs are pages including part or all of Psalms 51-55. It is said that these pages are significant and represented "Sheila Caffell's suicide note". A number of passages are highlighted and it will suffice if we give one example, taken from verse 14 of Psalm 51:
"Save me from blood guiltiness O God…"
The Appeal Court Judges were convinced about the Bible having been opened at Psalm 51 at some point after blood had been shed that night ...
They were not allowed at appeal to consider the relevance of Psalm 51 because as they went on to say the Bible had been available at trial for the defence to inspect - which unfortunately they did not do ... they had such a large amount of work to do and such limited time they simply overlooked it or did not get round to doing it in time ...
The defence only noticed the Psalm 51 point when photographs were disclosed after the trial - but like the Appeal Court Judges said - the Bible itself was available for the defence to inspect at trial - had they chosen to do so ...
Appeal Court Judges are only allowed to consider new evidence that was not available at trial ...
They were therefore simply not allowed to consider it's relevance during the appeal - and the Jury were never told about Psalm 51 or it's huge significance ...
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I was talking about your bizzare and wrong claim regarding Sheila having fired into the air ...
I never said that Adam - you did ...
I actually said this might have been what Neville thought had happened when he heard the first shot ...
Which is why i said you need to pay attention to what other posters are actually saying if you don't want to appear silly ...
Anyway good night Adam - and may God bless you ...
So Sheila's running around the house. In her nightie. Bare footed. Holding a rifle. As I said, we've all been guilty of doing that.
Neville cannot control her and rings Bamber. Although there are 40 reasons not to. Neville then now hears just one gun shot upstairs. He assumes Sheila is just shooting into the air ;D. So he then decides to spend ten minutes ringing the police. Leaving Sheila upstairs shooting into the air !
June and the twins of course stayed in bed during this time.
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So Sheila's running around the house. In her nightie. Bare footed. Holding a rifle. As I said, we've all been guilty of doing that.
Neville cannot control her and rings Bamber. Although there are 40 reasons not to. Neville then now hears just one gun shot upstairs. He assumes Sheila is just shooting into the air ;D. So he then decides to spend ten minutes ringing the police.
June and the twins of course stayed in bed during this time.
If Sheila is guilty and going mad why wouldn't she be running about the house with a gun, i her nightie and barefoot ? Maybe she put the nightie on after her shower later in any case ...
It is also possible that Neville did not phone the Police ...
Maybe he phoned Jeremy - heard a shot upstairs - hung up the phone and ran upstairs to help out ...
After listening to you in fact i now think this is more likely - you are right - if he heard a shot upstairs he would not waste time phoning the Police - he would run straight upstairs ...
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This is from the 2002 Appeal Court Judges :
407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.
408. The pages on which the heavy staining appears in these photographs are pages including part or all of Psalms 51-55. It is said that these pages are significant and represented "Sheila Caffell's suicide note". A number of passages are highlighted and it will suffice if we give one example, taken from verse 14 of Psalm 51:
"Save me from blood guiltiness O God…"
The Appeal Court Judges were convinced about the Bible having been opened at Psalm 51 at some point after blood had been shed that night ...
They were not allowed at appeal to consider the relevance of Psalm 51 because as they went on to say the Bible had been available at trial for the defence to inspect - which unfortunately they did not do ... they had such a large amount of work to do and such limited time they simply overlooked it or did not get round to doing it in time ...
The defence only noticed the Psalm 51 point when photographs were disclosed after the trial - but like the Appeal Court Judges said - the Bible itself was available for the defence to inspect at trial - had they chosen to do so ...
Appeal Court Judges are only allowed to consider new evidence that was not available at trial ...
They were therefore simply not allowed to consider it's relevance during the appeal - and the Jury were never told about Psalm 51 or it's huge significance ...
That isn't actually entirely correct, you seem to have been a little selective.
The consideration of Ground 9 needs to be read in it's entirety:
Ground 9 – the Bible 405. Ground 9 is an allegation of non-disclosure relating to the Bible found beside Sheila Caffell's body. The precise complaint is that the prosecution failed to disclose at trial the pages at which the Bible had been opened. Mr Turner draws attention to two distinct matters, two photographs of the Bible and documents relating to an inquiry made to a local Rector about the relevant pages.
406. Photographs of the scene, which were before the jury at trial, clearly showed the Bible lying open but face down beside Sheila Caffell's body. Since the Bible was face down, it is not possible to ascertain from these photographs the pages at which the Bible lay open.
407. Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known. It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police. The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.
408. The pages on which the heavy staining appears in these photographs are pages including part or all of Psalms 51-55. It is said that these pages are significant and represented "Sheila Caffell's suicide note". A number of passages are highlighted and it will suffice if we give one example, taken from verse 14 of Psalm 51:
"Save me from blood guiltiness O God…"
409. The evidence suggests that the two photographs were not brought to the attention of the defence and Mr Turner once more submits that the only explanation for this is wilful concealment by the police.
410. In addition complaint is made that a visit to discuss the relevant pages with the local Rector was not disclosed to the defence. This allegation stems from documents which came to light during the subsequent inquiries. These documents record that on a day ,which seems to be early in the inquiry into the shootings, DC Barlow was instructed by DI Miller to see the Rector to see if there was any significance in the open pages. Since at that stage the case was thought to be one in which Sheila Caffell had committed suicide, such an inquiry seems a natural one to have made. The only record of the outcome of that instruction appears in a note made by DC Barlow at a much later date which reads:
"I did see the Rector but he couldn't help us in any way on (the) point…"
411. Mr Barlow has since that time been forced to retire from the police force following a severe stroke. He does not now think that he did see the Rector. However, so far as we can tell, his record quoted above was not drawn to his attention and we conclude that he did see the Rector. We are not, however, surprised that a fruitless inquiry made almost 17 years ago does not stick in his memory following his enforced retirement from the police.
412. Mr Turner submits that there was a duty on the prosecution not only to disclose the photographs but also the fact of the visit to the Rector.
413. The only value of the photographs would be if the Bible itself was not available for inspection since if it was, the page at which it was open could very readily be found. We permitted both Mr Terzeon, the defence solicitor at trial, and Mr Edmund Lawson QC, junior counsel at trial, to give evidence about this aspect of the case. Mr Terzeon suggested that he had particularly wanted to ascertain the pages at which the Bible was open. He said that as a result he had asked the police and been told that the pages were not known. When he was asked why he had not looked at the Bible itself, he said that it was his recollection that it had been missing at the time.
414. If Mr Terzeon's recollection was right, we find it astonishing that nowhere is this recorded in any document nor does Mr Edmund Lawson have any recollection of any such problem. The fact that the police had lost an exhibit at some stage that the defence were anxious to view is we suggest the sort of detail that tends to stick in trial counsel's mind even when other details fade. Further Mr Terzeon had no recollection of the Bible being produced at trial as it undoubtedly was. If it had been missing and if the defence were attaching to it the importance that he now suggests, it must surely have come to his attention and would, we have no doubt, been carefully scrutinised. Such scrutiny would inevitably have revealed the relevant pages because the pages were so heavily bloodstained. Blood had also dripped down the edges of the pages on one of the sides when it was opened. Thus by turning to the end of this mark on the page edges one could immediately identify the bloodstained pages with little effort.
415. We are satisfied that whilst Mr Terzeon is doing his best to assist the court, his recollection in this regard is faulty. Even if he was right, any deficiency in this regard would have been cured when the Bible was produced at trial.
416. The fact that the defence made no play of the Bible's pages may very well have something to do with another aspect of the matter. The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial.
417. The explanation why the pages at which the Bible was open was not explored by the defence may be explicable by these matters. Counsel with the experience of Mr Rivlin QC, and with his acknowledged reputation for thoroughness, may well have decided that far from helping these matters might have presented a yet further major hurdle for the appellant to overcome and consequently decided to leave well alone. In any event we are satisfied that production of the original exhibit provided all the information that the photographs would have revealed and that there was no failure to disclose in this respect.
418. The information that the Rector had been visited was, on all the available evidence, of no help to anyone. The record shows that he could not help in any way. Thus there was nothing that could assist the defence and accordingly nothing that required to be disclosed.
419. We are satisfied, therefore, that there was no failure by the prosecution to disclose any material in this regard that required to be disclosed. Even if we had reached a different conclusion, we fail to see how it would have assisted the appellant. The pages only became relevant if Sheila Caffell had turned them up but that begged the very question that the jury were going to have to answer, namely who killed Sheila Caffell. Was it Sheila Caffell who opened the Bible as a part of her suicide or Jeremy Bamber who did it as part of a plan to make it look as if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide? Mr Turner suggests that if it was the appellant it is remarkable that he did not himself pursue this aspect of the matter. However for the appellant to suggest that these pages were of some critical significance required him to know what they were. If he was the killer, he could hardly make any great play of this aspect of the case without risking others realising that he had more knowledge about the matter than he would have had if he was innocent.
420. For these reasons, but particularly because we are satisfied that there was no failure to disclose matters of significance this ground fails. We should add that we were asked to hear evidence from Dr Ferguson in respect of the significance of these pages but we are satisfied that the evidence was available to the defence at trial and that in any event Dr Ferguson could not assist on the critical question as to who chose to open the Bible at this page. We, therefore, declined to hear this evidence.
421. For the sake of completeness, we should record that those acting for the appellant had obtained a statement from Dr Gillingham, a theologian, dealing with the theological significance of the pages at which the Bible was open. No application was made to us to admit this evidence. If it had been, we would have rejected the application. Such evidence could have been obtained for the trial because we are satisfied that the relevant passages could have been obtained by those acting for the appellant. In any event we do not consider that this evidence would have been admissible at trial because there was no evidence to suggest that Sheila Caffell had any particular theological training or expertise which would have enabled her to read more into the passages than would have been apparent to the jury from looking at the passages themselves. Further we have no doubt at all that even if admissible, this evidence could not have had any impact on the jury's verdict.
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If Sheila is guilty and going mad why wouldn't she be running about the house with a gun, i her nightie and barefoot ? Maybe she put the nightie on after her shower later in any case ...
It is also possible that Neville did not phone the Police ...
Maybe he phoned Jeremy - heard a shot upstairs - hung up the phone and ran upstairs to help out ...
After listening to you in fact i now think this is more likely - you are right - if he heard a shot upstairs he would not waste time phoning the Police - he would run straight upstairs ...
But the phone was off the hook! The phone was off the hook deliberately to give weight to Jeremy's claim that Nevill called him - thus giving the impression that when the shooting started, he was a couple of miles away in GH.
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There can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life.
Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate.
Therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally.
Therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51.
I would be surprised if Jeremy knew the significance of Psalm 51- but for all we know he MIGHT have done.
It is more likely that Sheila knew than Jeremy knew - but both are possible.
Almost the only fact i am certain of in this case is that whoever committed the murders beyond doubt knew the significance of Psalm 51 ...
According to the 2002 Appeal Court Judges what happened is this :
The Bible was open at Psalm 51 and had blood on the page ...
The Bible was then closed - they know this because on the facing page was an identical bloodstain - so it MUST have been closed to cause this identical stain on both pages ...
The Bible was then found open on a different page - if you go by the crime scene photos - because in the photos it is clear it was not open at Psalm 51 - there were too many pages on either side of the open section for it to have been left open at Psalm 51 ...
Make of it what you will but if Jeremy or a third party killer had left it open they would have surely left it open on Psalm 51 - after all Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ...
Much more likely is that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51 - that is how the blood got on that particular page - she then either :
a) turned to another page of the Bible
b) closed the Bible and then dropped it - it then fell open at another page ...
The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it ...
I am however obviously aware that there is a lot of other evidence than just the Bible to consider in this case ...
If you don't get 100% what i am saying about the Bible then with the greatest of respect you ARE missing the point - i am not wrong about this in any way shape or form ...
I am happy to answer any questions about this or to try and explain what i mean more clearly if you want - but don't make the mistake of thinking i am wrong about the Bible - because i am not ...
The second point I'd like to raise is this.
You say "there can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life". You omit to say that the only documented times were when she had breakdowns, and whilst "Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate", Dr Ferguson never saw her at times OTHER than when she was in the grip of breakdowns. I fail to see how, from this, you reach the conclusion that "therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally", even less the speculation that "therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51". I believe you're perfectly correct in "being surprised if Jeremy knew the significance.......". I don't imagine that compulsory RE(Scripture) lessons and assemblies held him in thrall.
You say "it's more likely that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51..............." which she could only do if she knew of it's existence and there is nothing which encourages me to believe she did. You've suggested that she could have heard it used as a sermon text in church!!!!! Are you serious? I must ask my clerical friends how many would preach a sermon about a Psalm written by a man seeking God's forgiveness for having condemned his lover's husband to his certain death.
You say "The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it..." which is exactly what Jeremy wanted to convey.
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The second point I'd like to raise is this.
You say "there can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life". You omit to say that the only documented times were when she had breakdowns, and whilst "Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate", Dr Ferguson never saw her at times OTHER than when she was in the grip of breakdowns. I fail to see how, from this, you reach the conclusion that "therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally", even less the speculation that "therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51". I believe you're perfectly correct in "being surprised if Jeremy knew the significance.......". I don't imagine that compulsory RE(Scripture) lessons and assemblies held him in thrall.
You say "it's more likely that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51..............." which she could only do if she knew of it's existence and there is nothing which encourages me to believe she did. You've suggested that she could have heard it used as a sermon text in church!!!!! Are you serious? I must ask my clerical friends how many would preach a sermon about a Psalm written by a man seeking God's forgiveness for having condemned his lover's husband to his certain death.
You say "The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it..." which is exactly what Jeremy wanted to convey.
I completely agree Jane - it is FAR MORE likely that Psalm 51 was a complete coincidence.
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I think you are becoming a bit of a troll and trying to argue that black is white. To make your apparently feigned obtuseness worse, you are choosing to be somewhat rude with your responses, labeling people ridiculous or that they are talking nonsense.
Your responses and rudeness to myself and other members is becoming a bit boring and is a bit of a shame really.
I Apologise if that's how I come across, I do not do it intentionally.
Nevertheless anything abusive I may say is just a mild curry compared to the heated comments the women frequently throw at eachother on a regular if not daily basis.
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I Apologise if that's how I come across, I do not do it intentionally.
Nevertheless anything abusive I may say is just a mild curry compared to the heated comments the women frequently throw at eachother on a regular if not daily basis.
Thankfully, the instigator is no longer in our midst.
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I Apologise if that's how I come across, I do not do it intentionally.
Nevertheless anything abusive I may say is just a mild curry compared to the heated comments the women frequently throw at eachother on a regular if not daily basis.
I think we just fight like with like and that's because of years of personal comments and defensiveness just because we think Bamber is guilty and argue our case well.
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It is interesting that Bamber said when interviewed, he had handled a bible.
I suspect he knew he had handled it on the night without gloves.
He wasn't religious at all and called June a 'religious maniac'. His reason for handling the bible ? To hit Crispy with !
Poor Crispy:
He witnesses a horrific massacre. Probably terrified he might get shot himself. Especially as Bamber used to hit him with June's bible.
Then gets left alone inside WHF for several hours.
Bamber then tells the police to 'get rid of it' or 'put it down' as he 'hated the thing' and didn't want it messing up his stero equipment'.
Either before or after Crispy is put down, Crispy is accused of firing the second shot !
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Poor Crispy.
He witnesses a horrific massacre. Probably terrified he might get shot himself. Especially as Bamber used to hit him with June's bible.
Then gets left alone inside WHF for several hours.
Bamber then tells the police to 'get rid of it' or 'put it down' as he 'hated the thing' and didn't want it messing up his stero equipment'.
Either before or after Crispy is put down, Crispy is accused of firing the second shot.
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Poor Crispy.
He witnesses a horrific massacre. Probably terrified he might get shot himself. Especially as Bamber used to hit him with June's bible.
Then gets left alone inside WHF for several hours.
Bamber then tells the police to 'get rid of it' or 'put it down' as he 'hated the thing' and didn't want it messing up his stero equipment'.
Either before or after Crispy is put down, Crispy is accused of firing the second shot.
not only firing but hitting the bullseye he,s one clever dog and a crack shot :))
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Sheila didn't read the Bible as she wasn't the religious one. It was only after her last stay in hospital in March 1985 that she told AE that " she'd found God ".Other than that,Sheila was NOT the religious one in the family. It was June who suffered from religious psychosis,which had been diagnosed on her last admission to hospital.
Colin's book will explain this.
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Sheila didn't read the Bible as she wasn't the religious one. It was only after her last stay in hospital in March 1985 that she told AE that " she'd found God ".Other than that,Sheila was NOT the religious one in the family. It was June who suffered from religious psychosis,which had been diagnosed on her last admission to hospital.
Colin's book will explain this.
But June appears to have had a deeply religious, if somewhat skewed, faith.
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Sheila didn't read the Bible as she wasn't the religious one. It was only after her last stay in hospital in March 1985 that she told AE that " she'd found God ".Other than that,Sheila was NOT the religious one in the family. It was June who suffered from religious psychosis,which had been diagnosed on her last admission to hospital.
Colin's book will explain this.
Why was a bloodied bible found next to her if she didn't read it ?
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But June appears to have had a deeply religious, if somewhat skewed, faith.
Yes--------religious psychosis.
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Why was a bloodied bible found next to her if she didn't read it ?
that bible was smeared with blood by jb.but had he known what has been posted about sc not reading bibles he may not have planted it
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Why was a bloodied bible found next to her if she didn't read it ?
Because it must have been June who was reading it,mustn't it ? Her blood was on it.
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Because it must have been June who was reading it,mustn't it ? Her blood was on it.
Says?
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Says?
Did it not match June's grouping ? It certainly wasn't Jeremy's that's for sure.
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Yes--------religious psychosis.
So are you saying she was in a permanently psychotic state?
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So are you saying she was in a permanently psychotic state?
This is quite possible,as latterly she'd been attending her GP regularly,but until I can find out about her medication,I obviously can't say for sure,but there is more to her illness than meets the eye in my opinion.
My friend's daughter had been " suffering " for 5 years ( seriously ) that we know about,though her behaviour before that was questionable,and only now is she in hospital receiving treatment. We await her full diagnosis,but the poor woman called herself a Saint and she's also proving to be violent and her mother isn't allowed to visit her in case there's an inflammatory situation as the woman's illness centres around her mother ?
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This is quite possible,as latterly she'd been attending her GP regularly,but until I can find out about her medication,I obviously can't say for sure,but there is more to her illness than meets the eye in my opinion.
My friend's daughter had been " suffering " for 5 years ( seriously ) that we know about,though her behaviour before that was questionable,and only now is she in hospital receiving treatment. We await her full diagnosis,but the poor woman called herself a Saint and she's also proving to be violent and her mother isn't allowed to visit her in case there's an inflammatory situation as the woman's illness centres around her mother ?
She was taking anti-psychosis meds and showing all the signs of doing so.
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Because it must have been June who was reading it,mustn't it ? Her blood was on it.
So it was June who put the bible next to Sheila. So June was still alive after Sheila shot herself ?
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This is quite possible,as latterly she'd been attending her GP regularly,but until I can find out about her medication,I obviously can't say for sure,but there is more to her illness than meets the eye in my opinion.
My friend's daughter had been " suffering " for 5 years ( seriously ) that we know about,though her behaviour before that was questionable,and only now is she in hospital receiving treatment. We await her full diagnosis,but the poor woman called herself a Saint and she's also proving to be violent and her mother isn't allowed to visit her in case there's an inflammatory situation as the woman's illness centres around her mother ?
If this is the girl you've spoken about, I'm glad for all concerned, that she's now in hospital. However, June was a fully functioning member of society.
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She was taking anti-psychosis meds and showing all the signs of doing so.
Oh right,thanks for that. So they must have been working too ;D
Do you know what the medication was ? If not I'll get in touch with Trudi.
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Oh right,thanks for that. So they must have been working too ;D
Do you know what the medication was ? If not I'll get in touch with Trudi.
Eh? Her medication id documented Lookout ::)
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Eh? Her medication id documented Lookout ::)
How come I've never seen it after having asked umpteen times over the years ? Documented where ?
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How come I've never seen it after having asked umpteen times over the years ? Documented where ?
She was taking Haloperidol - you have commented on her meds numerous times by name.
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How come I've never seen it after having asked umpteen times over the years ? Documented where ?
Lookout, you've discussed Sheila's meds many times.
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She was taking Haloperidol - you have commented on her meds numerous times by name.
I'm talking about June.
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come on now this is very basic stuff.well known
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I'm talking about June.
Ha, ha!! That explains it then ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ha, ha!! That explains it then ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's why I said I'd get in touch with Trudi. ::) Dearie me.I bet you thought I'd gone loop-de-loop :)) :)) :))
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That's why I said I'd get in touch with Trudi. ::) Dearie me.I bet you thought I'd gone loop-de-loop :)) :)) :))
I did indeed - BUT as it turned out, I didn't read far enough back. Soz! ;D ;D ;D
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I did indeed - BUT as it turned out, I didn't read far enough back. Soz! ;D ;D ;D
That's okay,as I realised you'd mis-read it. ;)
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That's okay,as I realised you'd mis-read it. ;)
:)
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The 28 bible questions on page 1 of this thread could be discussed in one episode of Jackies 6 part documentary.
I did copy & paste the questions onto the documentary thread. But they were removed.