Questions about the bible :

[lookout]

Including yourself !

[Adam]

Why are people commenting on this? You're just encouraging him.

It is a good question.

If Sheila was reading a religious book, which encouraged murder, suicide and pre suicide religious cleansing, why wasn't this next to her ?

She would have surely brought such a book with her to WHF if she was as religious as people claim. She was staying there for several days.

[Stephanie]

Jeremy Bamber told Julie Mugford why he'd planted the bible -

106. That evening when they were alone, Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.

"107. The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain. He told Julie Mugford that MacDonald had been paid £2,000 for the killings.

108. As a result of hearing this account, the police arrested not only the appellant but also MacDonald. Their inquiries showed that Macdonald could not have been at the farm that night and he was called by the prosecution to give evidence, that was not disputed, to confirm that he had nothing to do with the shootings.

[Adam]

Jeremy Bamber told Julie Mugford why he'd planted the bible -

106. That evening when they were alone, Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.

"107. The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain. He told Julie Mugford that MacDonald had been paid £2,000 for the killings.

108. As a result of hearing this account, the police arrested not only the appellant but also MacDonald. Their inquiries showed that Macdonald could not have been at the farm that night and he was called by the prosecution to give evidence, that was not disputed, to confirm that he had nothing to do with the shootings.

Thanks. This helps wraps up Bamber's guilt.

I also checked my January 2016 thread 'Julie's WS. Surely she didn't read all of this in the papers'. Her WS mentions the bible, which she could have only found out from Bamber.

It's amazing how once piece of forensic evidence can highlight one persons guilt and another persons innocence, in over 20 ways.

[sherlock]

The only plausible explanation is the bible was planted by Bamber. There are several obvious reasons why he would do this. He also had the time and knew where a bible would be.

As Miller said 'the bible was put next to Sheila for our benefit'.

My page one thread questions were either not answered at all, by one poster,  not answered with sources, or a flippant answer given.

In the last two days, more questions and discoveries have been made, which show Sheila did not fetch or read the bible,  or write a suicide note.

I said a few hours ago, the suicide note is not a huge deal, but Bamber was treading on very thin ice with the bible. And so it's proved.

The bible has been fatal for Bamber.

Adam - you have admitted openly on this forum in other posts that you have absolutely ZERO knowledge of the Bible or religion in general ...

And it is obvious from many of your posts that you in fact do not even have the most basic knowledge of the Bible ...

Yet you constantly state that in your opinion the Bible left open at the scene somehow proves Jeremy Bamber is guilty ...

If the Bible issue is a main reason you consider him guilty then i seriously suggest you rethink your entire stance on this case very carefully indeed ...

To come to a solid conclusion based on something you know absolutely NOTHING about is very weak thinking indeed ...

Take it from me as fact - there is only ONE thing that anyone can safely assume about the Bible that was found at the scene - that is that WHOEVER left it there had a very good knowledge of the Bible and religion ...

The page it was open on make that absolutely clear to anyone who has a good knowledge of the Bible...

If with your complete ignorance of the Bible you wish to argue this point with people who know a great deal about it then with the greatest of respect you need to have a very serious think indeed ...

[Adam]

Nice that people are reading my posts from 14 days ago.

I don't know anything about religion. Or the bible. Which is why I created a thread called 'Questions about the bible'.

The bible highlights Bamber's certain guilt. But if you browse the forum you will see there are hundreds of other reasons why I believe him guilty. There have been at least a dozen closures.

Why would Bamber need good knowledge of the bible and religion, to leave it there ?  Just a bit of research, and he can leave it on a certain page.

[Jane]

Adam - you have admitted openly on this forum in other posts that you have absolutely ZERO knowledge of the Bible or religion in general ...

And it is obvious from many of your posts that you in fact do not even have the most basic knowledge of the Bible ...

Yet you constantly state that in your opinion the Bible left open at the scene somehow proves Jeremy Bamber is guilty ...

If the Bible issue is a main reason you consider him guilty then i seriously suggest you rethink your entire stance on this case very carefully indeed ...

To come to a solid conclusion based on something you know absolutely NOTHING about is very weak thinking indeed ...

Take it from me as fact - there is only ONE thing that anyone can safely assume about the Bible that was found at the scene - that is that WHOEVER left it there had a very good knowledge of the Bible and religion ...

The page it was open on make that absolutely clear to anyone who has a good knowledge of the Bible...

If with your complete ignorance of the Bible you wish to argue this point with people who know a great deal about it then with the greatest of respect you need to have a very serious think indeed ...

Whilst it remains true that Adam has zero biblical knowledge, I DO have some knowledge. You say that the page on which it was open makes it clear to anyone who has a GOOD knowledge of the bible. GOOD is the key word, don't you think. I was able to type in "Bible verses relating to forgiveness" -something which wouldn't have been available then- the psalm, thus the page on which the bible was opened was not given in any of the copious lists given although I appreciate I didn't view them all. I can only suggest that June -whose knowledge of the bible was far greater than my own- was reading this particular psalm, perhaps it was a favourite, and Jeremy picked up the already opened bible and placed it, as he believed, appropriately. The point I'm trying to make is that if I, who was bought up with regular church and Sunday School attendances and reasonable working knowledge of the bible, now having the availability of search engines at my disposal, was unable to pull out a relevant verse off the top of my head, I'm perfectly certain that Jeremy didn't.

[Jane]

Why would Bamber need good knowledge of the bible and religion, to leave it there ?  Just a bit of research, and he can leave it on a certain page.

How, without a more than average knowledge of the bible, do you imagine Jeremy could have researched an appropriate passage/verse? Searching the bible for relevant passages/verses isn't something one can do from a place of absolute zero and the internet wasn't available then. Given that no priest/vicar has come forward to say Jeremy had enrolled for bible study sessions, could this be a conversation he may have had with June? "Mother, should I ever feel the need to take my inheritance and run, I'll have to get rid of you and Father and Sheila and the boys. As I'd need to make it look as if Sheila had gone mad and done it, I'll also need something to back it up. Perhaps you could recommend a passage/verse or two from that book you've always got in your hands."

[Adam]

How, without a more than average knowledge of the bible, do you imagine Jeremy could have researched an appropriate passage/verse? Searching the bible for relevant passages/verses isn't something one can do from a place of absolute zero and the internet wasn't available then. Given that no priest/vicar has come forward to say Jeremy had enrolled for bible study sessions, could this be a conversation he may have had with June? "Mother, should I ever feel the need to take my inheritance and run, I'll have to get rid of you and Father and Sheila and the boys. As I'd need to make it look as if Sheila had gone mad and done it, I'll also need something to back it up. Perhaps you could recommend a passage/verse or two from that book you've always got in your hands."

Well, if the pages the bible was left open at, were relevant, as people on here claim, Bamber could easily have investigate beforehand. He had been planning the massacre for months.

He could go to a library and read a bible. Buy his own bible and then dispose of it, once read. Or read one of June's bibles.

If June was a religious maniac, as Bamber claimed, she might have told him bits about the bible, when they were on speaking terms. Or he might have done compulsive religious studies at school.

Bamber putting the bible next to Sheila would have been decided beforehand. It was an easy plant. He might as well leave it on an opened page. So he would have investigated an appropriate page.

[Adam]

I suspect that Bamber borrowed one of June's bibles, if he wanted to decide which page to leave it open at. June had four bibles at WHF, so doubtful she would miss one for a day or two.

I doubt the page the bible was left open at highlighted suicide. Otherwise the defence would have brought it up at trial. Even then the prosecution would immediately counter by saying Bamber knew what page to leave it open at.

If the defence were not smart enough to look into the page the bible was left open at, Bamber could ask that question to them. It in no way highlights his guilt, he's just asking a question.

[Jane]

Well, if the pages the bible was left open at, were relevant, as people on here claim, Bamber could easily have investigate beforehand. He had been planning the massacre for months.

He could go to a library and read a bible. Buy his own bible and then dispose of it, once read. Or read one of June's bibles.

If June was a religious maniac, as Bamber claimed, she might have told him bits about the bible, when they were on speaking terms. Or he might have done compulsive religious studies at school.

Bamber putting the bible next to Sheila would have been decided beforehand. It was an easy plant. He might as well leave it on an opened page. So he would have investigated an appropriate page.

Perhaps you should go and find yourself a bible -complete with Old Testament- and try to find a verse appropriate to what Jeremy needed. From a position of absolute zero, PLUS having no real interest in it, it's likely to be time consuming. Reading the bible takes diligence. Not one of Jeremy's strong points, I think.

I doubt that he'd have had any recall of bible verses June may have recited to him and had he found school RI "compulsive" he'd probably have ended up as a vicar!!! I think you must have meant COMPULSORY!!!!!

[Adam]

Perhaps you should go and find yourself a bible -complete with Old Testament- and try to find a verse appropriate to what Jeremy needed. From a position of absolute zero, PLUS having no real interest in it, it's likely to be time consuming. Reading the bible takes diligence. Not one of Jeremy's strong points, I think.

I doubt that he'd have had any recall of bible verses June may have recited to him and had he found school RI "compulsive" he'd probably have ended up as a vicar!!! I think you must have meant COMPULSORY!!!!!

Apologies, being young and not posting on here 12 hours a day, I said compulsive, rather than compulsory.

Bamber spent months planning the massacre. So would have the diligence to go through the bible. The potential reward for diligence on all aspects for him were high.

Either the page the bible was left open at, had no relevance to suicide, or it did have relevance which Bamber could easily have found out. Either way it points to a plant.

As mentioned the bible does not support suicide or murder. So Sheila certainly would not know what page to look for, as she didn't read it. Or if she did, wouldn't go against it's preachings and commit murder/suicide.

Anyway, Lookout will be posting soon. Enjoy.

[Jane]

Apologies, being young and not posting on here 12 hours a day, I said compulsive, rather than compulsory.

Bamber spent months planning the massacre. So would have the diligence to go through the bible. The potential reward for diligence on all aspects for him were high.

Either the page the bible was left open at, had no relevance to suicide, or it did have relevance which Bamber could easily have found out. Either way it points to a plant.

As mentioned the bible does not support suicide or murder. So Sheila certainly would not know what page to look for, as she didn't read it. Or if she did, wouldn't go against it's preachings and commit murder/suicide.

Anyway, Lookout will be posting soon. Enjoy.

Apologies accepted but I see no correlation between your alleged age, and the time you spend here with your grammatical error.

I very much doubt that Jeremy had the diligence to apply himself to such a task.

That the bible was either relevant or not, I believe can be accepted.

Certainly, the bible -of itself- denotes neither suicide nor murder.

[sherlock]

I suspect that Bamber borrowed one of June's bibles, if he wanted to decide which page to leave it open at. June had four bibles at WHF, so doubtful she would miss one for a day or two.

I doubt the page the bible was left open at highlighted suicide. Otherwise the defence would have brought it up at trial. Even then the prosecution would immediately counter by saying Bamber knew what page to leave it open at.

If the defence were not smart enough to look into the page the bible was left open at, Bamber could ask that question to them. It in no way highlights his guilt, he's just asking a question.

Adam - to be clear the page the Bible was open at is not really relevant to suicide - it is in fact relevant to murder and specifically seeking God's forgiveness after having committed murder ...

To re quote myself from a previous post

"This afternoon i have spent 2 hours talking with the Church of England Vicar Reverend Richard Fisher - he is the Vicar of St Johns Church in Loughton, Essex.
I asked him if a Christian had murdered someone what passage of the Bible would they turn to for comfort and/or forgiveness.
He told me what i already knew - Psalm 51
He has been a Vicar for 26 years - he knows what he is talking about more than ANYONE who has had any involvement in this case ..."


So i hope you and others can now take this as fact ...

You are right to suggest that Jeremy Bamber may have researched and/or known this - but he did not bring this up at trial. His lawyer did try to make enquiries about the pages significance and this might or might not have been at Jeremy's suggestion - we simply do not know ...

His defence team failed badly in not pursuing this further - they tried to raise it in his 2002 appeal but the "expert" opinion they got was sadly lacking on this point - it is a shame they did not ask the Reverend Richard Fisher to give his opinion instead ...

I am happy that you have stated you are a young person - i had come to the conclusion that you are indeed a young person - and the fullest of respect to you for being such an active member of these forums at a young age - it shows you care about important issues in society ...

[sherlock]

Apologies, being young and not posting on here 12 hours a day, I said compulsive, rather than compulsory.

Bamber spent months planning the massacre. So would have the diligence to go through the bible. The potential reward for diligence on all aspects for him were high.

Either the page the bible was left open at, had no relevance to suicide, or it did have relevance which Bamber could easily have found out. Either way it points to a plant.

As mentioned the bible does not support suicide or murder. So Sheila certainly would not know what page to look for, as she didn't read it. Or if she did, wouldn't go against it's preachings and commit murder/suicide.

Anyway, Lookout will be posting soon. Enjoy.

Sheila might well have known of the pages significance - she definitely had an interest in God and the Bible etc ...

She might have gone against the Bible's teachings regarding murder and if she had it is perfectly possible she would have turned to this particular page to seek forgiveness ...