Questions about the bible :

[lookout]

The top and bottom of it is that EP didn't have a clue ! They probably picked out a page in which they thought would be relevant to a suicide case. Just because the page happened to have had blood on it didn't mean that it had been opened at that particular passage of the Bible.
Then Eureka,EP had found the clue they were looking for. What a load of tosh !

[sherlock]

Sherlock, there are several points I'd like to raise, but ONE stands out above all others.

You keep talking about how Psalm 51 is highly relevant to what happened that night and how this would be known by anyone with knowledge of the Bible. Before we go any further, I'm going to say that such a person would be FAR more likely to be June, NOT Sheila.

I think it's safe to say that I had way more religious instruction than did Sheila but I can only quote 2 Psalms and I only know the number of one of those. No prizes for guessing which, but NEITHER is a plea for forgiveness after having committed murder. Why would it be? Who of us would suspect we/family/friends would ever need to make such a request. Which of us would instil in a child, the means of asking forgiveness for having committed murder, when, if we're going to insist that certain Psalms are learned, there are so many more to choose from?  It isn't a Psalm which would automatically be known, which is why, IF the page is relevant, not just being MADE to be, it would have been JUNE who was aware of it.

I hope we can discuss all of your points one by one - so lets start with this point first - then discuss your other points ...

I agree that June would have been far more likely to have known Psalm 51 than Sheila - she would have studied the Bible far more than most people i am sure ...

But we know that June did not commit the murders ...

And if Sheila had killed someone else in the house before June then i cannot see that even June would have started reading Psalm 51 to Sheila - highly improbable ...

So for those reasons i rule out entirely the possibility that it was June who had turned to Psalm 51 ...

And for reasons explained in previous posts i KNOW that Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ie seeking forgiveness after having committed murder ...

All we know about Sheila for sure is that she had at least some interest in religion and would have at least read some of the Bible at some point in her life - it is possible she had read or studied it a lot but equally possible she had only read / studied it in a very minor way ...

But even if she only had limited knowledge of the Bible it is perfectly conceivable that by chance one of the things she had learned was the significance of Psalm 51 and it had stuck in her mind ...

For example during religious education at school or maybe during a church sermon a teacher or Vicar had been discussing Psalm 51 and it's meaning - she might well have remembered this ...

I do doubt however that she on her own had been reading the Bible and had worked out it's significance - unless she was using a very modern translation of the Bible - this is because the old fashioned words used in the older versions (specifically the word bloodguilt) would be hard for someone of Sheilas generation to fully understand unless it was explained to her by a knowledgeable religious person ...

It is perfectly possible however that Sheila may have read a modern translation of the Bible which instead of using the word bloodguilt would have spelt it out in plain english ie "guilt for having killed someone ..."

I am very interested to hear your other points relating to my posts in this thread ...

What i have posted is of course only theory - however it seems perfectly possible to me at this point ...

If you or others can point out how where or why this theory falls down then i would be grateful ...

As you know i have an open mind as to the events of that night ...

[lookout]

I hope we can discuss all of your points one by one - so lets start with this point first - then discuss your other points ...

I agree that June would have been far more likely to have known Psalm 51 than Sheila - she would have studied the Bible far more than most people i am sure ...

But we know that June did not commit the murders ...

And if Sheila had killed someone else in the house before June then i cannot see that even June would have started reading Psalm 51 to Sheila - highly improbable ...

So for those reasons i rule out entirely the possibility that it was June who had turned to Psalm 51 ...

And for reasons explained in previous posts i KNOW that Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ie seeking forgiveness after having committed murder ...

All we know about Sheila for sure is that she had at least some interest in religion and would have at least read some of the Bible at some point in her life - it is possible she had read or studied it a lot but equally possible she had only read / studied it in a very minor way ...

But even if she only had limited knowledge of the Bible it is perfectly conceivable that by chance one of the things she had learned was the significance of Psalm 51 and it had stuck in her mind ...

For example during religious education at school or maybe during a church sermon a teacher or Vicar had been discussing Psalm 51 and it's meaning - she might well have remembered this ...

I do doubt however that she on her own had been reading the Bible and had worked out it's significance - unless she was using a very modern translation of the Bible - this is because the old fashioned words used in the older versions (specifically the word bloodguilt) would be hard for someone of Sheilas generation to fully understand unless it was explained to her by a knowledgeable religious person ...

It is perfectly possible however that Sheila may have read a modern translation of the Bible which instead of using the word bloodguilt would have spelt it out in plain english ie "guilt for having killed someone ..."

I am very interested to hear your other points relating to my posts in this thread ...

What i have posted is of course only theory - however it seems perfectly possible to me at this point ...

If you or others can point out how where or why this theory falls down then i would be grateful ...









As you know i have an open mind as to the events of that night ...

-----------After 30 years ??

[sherlock]

The top and bottom of it is that EP didn't have a clue ! They probably picked out a page in which they thought would be relevant to a suicide case. Just because the page happened to have had blood on it didn't mean that it had been opened at that particular passage of the Bible.
Then Eureka,EP had found the clue they were looking for. What a load of tosh !

It was the only page to have blood on the actual pages - and as the 2002 Appeal Court Judges explained it had a mirror image of the blood stain on the opposite page ...

They therefore concluded that it HAD to have been opened at that page (Psalm 51) at some point on that night ...

They are of course 100% correct about that - there is NO other possibility - not even a remote one ...

So we can all be certain that at some point on that night after blood had been shed the Bible had been open at Psalm 51 ..

[sherlock]

-----------After 30 years ??

I am sorry but i do not have a clue by what you mean when you say "after 30 years ?"

If you can explain what you mean using other words then i will attempt to answer you ...

[lookout]

It was the only page to have blood on the actual pages - and as the 2002 Appeal Court Judges explained it had a mirror image of the blood stain on the opposite page ...

They therefore concluded that it HAD to have been opened at that page (Psalm 51) at some point on that night ...

They are of course 100% correct about that - there is NO other possibility - not even a remote one ...

So we can all be certain that at some point on that night after blood had been shed the Bible had been open at Psalm 51 ..

Because I've maintained that the Bible had been thrown down as opposed to it having been placed there,it was just a fluke that it had been left open at that/those particular pages unless it had been bookmarked,otherwise those pages would not have been bloodstained.

[lookout]

Plus the fact that Jeremy wouldn't have known one end of the Bible from the other-------to those saying that he'd put it there purposely.

[sherlock]

Because I've maintained that the Bible had been thrown down as opposed to it having been placed there,it was just a fluke that it had been left open at that/those particular pages unless it had been bookmarked,otherwise those pages would not have been bloodstained.

As i have said in a previous post - the Bible was in fact not found open at that page - the crime scene photo actually show that it was not open at that page when found - because in the photo there are too many pages either side of the open section for that to have been possible ...

As the Appeal Court Judges said - it had been open at that page at some point that night after blood had been shed ...

You are therefore very possibly right that the Bible had been thrown down - and the pages it was found open at were not at all relevant ...

However as i have said in a previous post it is perfectly conceivable that Sheila had the Bible on her chest when she shot herself the first time - and the Bible fell off her chest and opened at those random pages either just before or just after she shot herself for the second time ...

When you say it was just a fluke that it was open at Psalm 51 please bear in mind that there are roughly 1344 pages in that version of the Bible - even accounting for the fact of double pages it still leaves only a one in 672 chance that the Bible was open at Psalm 51 by coincidence - so for me i rule out entirely it being open at Psalm 51 by a fluke ...

[lookout]

I am sorry but i do not have a clue by what you mean when you say "after 30 years ?"

If you can explain what you mean using other words then i will attempt to answer you ...

When you posted as having " an open mind ". Meaning that after 30 years you still don't know one way or the other ?

[guest2181]

As i have said in a previous post - the Bible was in fact not found open at that page - the crime scene photo actually show that it was not open at that page when found - because in the photo there are too many pages either side of the open section for that to have been possible ...

As the Appeal Court Judges said - it had been open at that page at some point that night after blood had been shed ...

You are therefore very possibly right that the Bible had been thrown down - and the pages it was found open at were not at all relevant ...

However as i have said in a previous post it is perfectly conceivable that Sheila had the Bible on her chest when she shot herself the first time - and the Bible fell off her chest and opened at those random pages either just before or just after she shot herself for the second time ...

When you say it was just a fluke that it was open at Psalm 51 please bear in mind that there are roughly 1344 pages in that version of the Bible - even accounting for the fact of double pages it still leaves only a one in 672 chance that the Bible was open at Psalm 51 by coincidence - so for me i rule out entirely it being open at Psalm 51 by a fluke ...

Ages ago, I suggested that the bible might not have been opened and closed to cause the 'mirrored blood stains', but blood had simply soaked through a number of pages, so that when it was later opened you would get the effect of the mirrored stains.

If that makes sense. 

[sherlock]

Plus the fact that Jeremy wouldn't have known one end of the Bible from the other-------to those saying that he'd put it there purposely.

We simply do not know what Jeremy's knowledge of the Bible was ...

At his public school he would have had religious education and a daily 1 hour religious assembly ...

But if it had been Jeremy then surely the Bible would have actually been found open at the significant page ie Psalm 51 - and not a random page ...

Unless he left it open at Psalm 51 on Sheila's chest and it simply slipped off her chest and fell open at the random page after he had left ...

In my opinion the Bible and Psalm 51 make it much more likely that Sheila did it than Jeremy ...

But both are a possibility ...

[guest2181]

Ages ago, I suggested that the bible might not have been opened and closed to cause the 'mirrored blood stains', but blood had simply soaked through a number of pages, so that when it was later opened you would get the effect of the mirrored stains.

If that makes sense. 

See here:

Just throwing this out there, but I've had a hard time understanding why there are mirrored blood stains on the pages of the bible, we all assume that the bible has been closed and then opened, producing this mirrored effect.

Is it not possible, or even more likely, that the blood stains were caused by soaking through pages rather than being closed and opened? Meaning the bible photographed in the open position, is not at the same page it was found.

What do you think? It would also explain the blood stain on the top right page which should be on the top left, which it would be if you turned the page.

[sherlock]

When you posted as having " an open mind ". Meaning that after 30 years you still don't know one way or the other ?

Exactly.

I and many many others are still unsure - as was the original 10 - 2 Jury ...

I have only been researching this case for about 4 or 5 years - and even then only on a very part time basis - my total research time probably only amounts at a guess to about 12 weeks of actual time ...

It is a very hard case to be absolutely sure on - it is a bit like an optical illusion - you look at it from one perspective and it appears obvious that Jeremy was responsible for the murders  - but then you look at it from a different perspective and it seems equally clear that Sheila did it ...

Hopefully the truth will become clear in time ...

[lookout]

We simply do not know what Jeremy's knowledge of the Bible was ...

At his public school he would have had religious education and a daily 1 hour religious assembly ...

But if it had been Jeremy then surely the Bible would have actually been found open at the significant page ie Psalm 51 - and not a random page ...

Unless he left it open at Psalm 51 on Sheila's chest and it simply slipped off her chest and fell open at the random page after he had left ...

In my opinion the Bible and Psalm 51 make it much more likely that Sheila did it than Jeremy ...

But both are a possibility ...

Jeremy wouldn't have studied the Bible to the extent that his mother did,whether he was taught RE at school or not. He'd probably had and heard enough of the rantings from his mother when he was growing up and too much of a good thing,just isn't in that respect.

No way would the Bible have displaced from a still,deceased person,let alone fall on the relevant page.

June would have been reading that particular Bible as it was hers,but would have been more likely to have been reading about morality rather than killing.

[sherlock]

Ages ago, I suggested that the bible might not have been opened and closed to cause the 'mirrored blood stains', but blood had simply soaked through a number of pages, so that when it was later opened you would get the effect of the mirrored stains.

If that makes sense. 

The 2002 Appeal Court Judges were sure it had in fact been open at Psalm 51 ...

Surely if the blood had soaked through it would have also soaked through onto other pages a well ...

The only page that ANY blood was found on was Psalm 51 - and an EXACT mirror image of the stain was found on the page opposite ...

It is very clear therefore that the Bible had been open at Psalm 51 after blood had been shed that night ..

You are exactly right to think this is a very important point in this case ...