Questions about the bible :

[Adam]

From the details of his alleged call to the Police it might well have taken 1 minute - not 5

He may well have heard a shot but still not believed the shot had actually been at a person - he probably believed she had just fired in the air - serious enough to instantly call the Police - but not so serious as to run upstairs without phoning the Police first ...

So Sheila fired just one shot upstairs now. In the air. In her rage. So he didn't hear any other shots upstairs

Bamber said his call to the police lasted about 10 minutes. Neville called the same police station.

[sherlock]

Sherlock my window thread today has Bamber standing at the bottom of the stairs. Holding a loaded rifle. Everyone asleep.

His cycle ride and window entrance would be simple and quiet. Threads created.

Feel free to tell me what problems Bamber would now encounter.

As you say Adam it is possible that Jeremy committed the murders ...

But as i say Adam - it is ALSO perfectly possible that Sheila did ...

Just because it is possible that Jeremy committed the murders does NOT mean that he in fact did so ...

He was convicted largely because it appeared that Sheila could not have done it - but as i have said it is in fact very possible that she could have done ...

[sherlock]

The OS says Neville called the police at 3.26am.

Don't believe everything you read on the OS ...

Jeremy phoned the Police at 3.26

He said it took him some considerable minutes between receiving the call from Neville and actually phoning the Police himself ...

Nevilles phone call if it took place would definitely have been well before 3.26 ...

[sherlock]

Well that's strange because Jeremy is now arguing that he called the police at 03:36! Wonder why when Jeremy called the police, he wasn't told that the incident had already been reported? 

Jeremy, the Police and Julie Mugford and friends all gave highly unreliable timings for the phone calls -

Jeremy was confused about the timings of the calls ...

The Police say the times as recorded on the log/s was down to a clerical error ...

Julie and friends all gave different times initially and then changed their version of the times later ...

However Jeremy was clear that there was a lot of minutes between Neville phoning him and him then phoning the Police ...

I believe Jeremy most likely phoned the Police at 3.26 and the call ended at 3.36 - but that is just my best guess based on the evidence ...

I therefore calculate that Neville would have called Jeremy at about 3.10 and the Police around 3.11 or 3.12 ...

[Adam]

Don't believe everything you read on the OS ...

Jeremy phoned the Police at 3.26

He said it took him some considerable minutes between receiving the call from Neville and actually phoning the Police himself ...

Nevilles phone call if it took place would definitely have been well before 3.26 ...

I don't believe what I read on the OS. However it says Bamber called the police at 3.36am.

[guest2181]

Like Sheila's fingerprints found on the bible? 



I am sure this already has a place in your "forensic library" 

This is a reference to a form such as the one below. On the form below only prints are noted as being found on the rifle, yet a number of items are listed as being tested.

I suspect the same thing will be true of the form which is referenced in your attachement, i.e. the bible will be listed but not as having positive prints.

A case of passing something off as saying something that it does not.

[sherlock]

So Sheila fired just one shot upstairs now. In the air. In her rage. So he didn't hear any other shots upstairs

Bamber said his call to the police lasted about 10 minutes. Neville called the same police station.

If you actually read my posts you will realise how silly some of your comments appear - try to look at what other posters are actually saying before replying ...

[Adam]

As you say Adam it is possible that Jeremy committed the murders ...

But as i say Adam - it is ALSO perfectly possible that Sheila did ...

Just because it is possible that Jeremy committed the murders does NOT mean that he in fact did so ...

He was convicted largely because it appeared that Sheila could not have done it - but as i have said it is in fact very possible that she could have done ...

There is no plausible scenario of how Sheila did it.

You are making things up as you go along. Now saying Sheila fired just one shot in the air upatairs. And that Neville only spent one minute on the phone to the police.

Bamber's committing the massacre is straight forward. I don't know why people try to complicate things by claiming Sheila could do it.

[Adam]

If you actually read my posts you will realise how silly some of your comments appear - try to look at what other posters are actually saying before replying ...

You said Nevilles call to the police would last one minute. He called the same station as Bamber, who said his call lasted ten minutes.

[sherlock]

You said Nevilles call to the police would last one minute. He called the same station as Bamber, who said his call lasted ten minutes.

I was talking about your bizzare and wrong claim regarding Sheila having fired into the air ...

I never said that Adam - you did ...

I actually said this might have been what Neville thought had happened when he heard the first shot ...

Which is why i said you need to pay attention to what other posters are actually saying if you don't want to appear silly ...

Anyway good night Adam - and may God bless you ...

[David1819]

This is a reference to a form such as the one below. On the form below only prints are noted as being found on the rifle, yet a number of items are listed as being tested.

I suspect the same thing will be true of the form which is referenced in your attachement, i.e. the bible will be listed but not as having positive prints.

A case of passing something off as saying something that it does not.

This form you have posted makes no sense.

Time of arrival is dated 7/8/85 yet it mentions a silencer not discovered until supposedly the 10/8/85.
Then it mentions Mathew Macdonald arrested yet he not arrested until a much later date around September. Then you have 25 shell casings mentioned on a report for positive results? 

Since the police made efforts to deny the existence of photographs of the bible its perfectly reasonable that they make efforts to deny the existence of fingerprint results for the same purpose.

[guest2181]

This form you have posted makes no sense.

Time of arrival is dated 7/8/85 yet it mentions a silencer not discovered until supposedly the 10/8/85.
Then it mentions Mathew Macdonald arrested yet he not arrested until a much later date around September. Then you have 25 shell casings mentioned on a report for positive results? 

Since the police made efforts to deny the existence of photographs of the bible its perfectly reasonable that they make efforts to deny the existence of fingerprint results for the same purpose.

I posted the form to show an example of the type of form which was referred to in the cropped attachment that you posted.

The reason was to show you that the form lists a number of items that were tested, but fingerprints were only found on the rifle. Therefore, your claim that your attachment showed that the bible contained fingerprints is simply incorrect.

On a side note and a different subject, the fact that the form does not makes sense to YOU, is irrelevant. The time of arrival is the time that Davidson arrived at WHF.

[David1819]

I posted the form to show an example of the type of form which was referred to in the cropped attachment that you posted.

The reason was to show you that the form lists a number of items that were tested, but fingerprints were only found on the rifle. Therefore, your claim that your attachment showed that the bible contained fingerprints is simply incorrect.

On a side note and a different subject, the fact that the form does not makes sense to YOU, is irrelevant. The time of arrival is the time that Davidson arrived at WHF.

Nonsense, just because one form has the bible absent from a list does not preclude the bible was examined for prints elsewhere or at another date.

What is important to note; if the bullet casings had been tested and no prints found would that not make a good argument that the culprit wore gloves therefore the killer is not Shelia? That sounds plausible to me. However prosecutors never used such an argument so I'm not going to jump to a conclusion here 

[guest2181]

Nonsense, just because one form has the bible absent from a list does not preclude the bible was examined for prints elsewhere or at another date.

What is important to note; if the bullet casings had been tested and no prints found would that not make a good argument that the culprit wore gloves therefore the killer is not Shelia? That sounds plausible to me. However prosecutors never used such an argument so I'm not going to jump to a conclusion here 

I think you are becoming a bit of a troll and trying to argue that black is white. To make your apparently feigned obtuseness worse, you are choosing to be somewhat rude with your responses, labeling people ridiculous or that they are talking nonsense.

It is quite clear that the cropped attachment that you posted:



..... refers to a form where a number of items are listed as being tested for fingerprints, one of the items is noted as being the bible. The name of the form and lab reference number are also provided.

It does not however indicate whether fingerprints were actually discovered on the bible, which is what you were originally claiming.

Your responses and rudeness to myself and other members is becoming a bit boring and is a bit of a shame really.

[Jane]

There can be no doubt that Sheila had an interest in religion - at least at certain points of her life.
Dr Ferguson's statements alone make that crystal clear - beyond reasonable debate.
Therefore she would have read the Bible at least occasionally.
Therefore she MIGHT have known the significance of Psalm 51.
I would be surprised if Jeremy knew the significance of Psalm 51- but for all we know he MIGHT have done.
It is more likely that Sheila knew than Jeremy knew - but both are possible.

Almost the only fact i am certain of in this case is that whoever committed the murders beyond doubt knew the significance of Psalm 51 ...

According to the 2002 Appeal Court Judges what happened is this :

The Bible was open at Psalm 51 and had blood on the page ...

The Bible was then closed - they know this because on the facing page was an identical bloodstain - so it MUST have been closed to cause this identical stain on both pages ...

The Bible was then found open on a different page - if you go by the crime scene photos - because in the photos it is clear it was not open at Psalm 51 - there were too many pages on either side of the open section for it to have been left open at Psalm 51 ...

Make of it what you will but if Jeremy or a third party killer had left it open they would have surely left it open on Psalm 51 - after all Psalm 51 is highly relevant to the events of that night ...

Much more likely is that after committing murder Sheila turned to Psalm 51 - that is how the blood got on that particular page - she then either :

a) turned to another page of the Bible
b) closed the Bible and then dropped it - it then fell open at another page ...

The Bible evidence alone therefore points to it being MUCH more likely that Sheila did it ...

I am however obviously aware that there is a lot of other evidence than just the Bible to consider in this case ...

If you don't get 100% what i am saying about the Bible then with the greatest of respect you ARE missing the point - i am not wrong about this in any way shape or form ...

I am happy to answer any questions about this or to try and explain what i mean more clearly if you want - but don't make the mistake of thinking i am wrong about the Bible - because i am not ...

Sherlock, there are several points I'd like to raise, but ONE stands out above all others.

You keep talking about how Psalm 51 is highly relevant to what happened that night and how this would be known by anyone with knowledge of the Bible. Before we go any further, I'm going to say that such a person would be FAR more likely to be June, NOT Sheila.

I think it's safe to say that I had way more religious instruction than did Sheila but I can only quote 2 Psalms and I only know the number of one of those. No prizes for guessing which, but NEITHER is a plea for forgiveness after having committed murder. Why would it be? Who of us would suspect we/family/friends would ever need to make such a request. Which of us would instil in a child, the means of asking forgiveness for having committed murder, when, if we're going to insist that certain Psalms are learned, there are so many more to choose from?  It isn't a Psalm which would automatically be known, which is why, IF the page is relevant, not just being MADE to be, it would have been JUNE who was aware of it.