Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: snow66! on September 24, 2023, 09:18:PM
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Yes,i am referring to the 'Aga' marks again,and what I mean is, that the fact that there are three of them makes it easier to match them to the source.I will also try and point out again why I believe the marks are very important.I am aware that most members see the marks as irrelevent,even supporters,nevertheless I will have another go at trying to point out why I think they would have been a game changer if they had been presented at trial and how they could be now.
Anyway,as I see it,proving that the Aga made the marks shouldn't cause much problem,as I said the fact that there are three marks limits the available sources of heat at WHF capable of causing the marks that night.One mark,yes,quite impossible to tie to any specific object,even two would be tricky.But three burns,which match the shape and spacing within millimetres of an image taken on pig skin from the Aga handles? The chances that another source of heat could have made similar marks must surely be astronomical!
As I say,that is the beauty of THREE marks,and not just marks,BURN MARKS.Think about it,Yvonne Hartley quite rightly pointed out that there were very few, if any,other sources of heat anywhere else in the WHF.And even if there were,just how would they manage to make contact with Nevills neck? Either Nevill lay against a heat source or someone held a hot object against him,he definately didn't take something and brand himself.
And even if someone did heat an object and burn Nevill,why would the burns be the same spacings as the image taken from the Aga on the pig skin?
Also,it has been proven by Boyce that if you place someone on their side in front of an Aga their neck is in line with the hot Aga knobs.
So,sorry to be so boring,but I believe that most reasonable people will conclude that the Aga cooker was indeed the cause of the marks on Nevills back.
Yet the likes of Jane continues to reject the Aga evidence by putting her fingers in her ears and uttering La,La,La,rather than facing the truth. [Sorry Jane,but tit for tat ^-^].
Now,for those of you who may have accepted that the Aga made the marks,let us look at what this could mean.What if the jury had known that the Aga made the marks,and that they took several minutes or maybe even hours to form,surely this would have had a profound effect on whether it was safe to convict Bamber?
And just how could Justice Drake have dismissed the burns to Nevill? He couldn't!
Just think it through and you may see the significance that the three little marks may have had at JBs trial.
Nevill lying against the Aga for any length of time doesn't fit well with a JB scenario,and we all know it.
The police scenario sent to the DPP has JB chasing Nevill to the kitchen then shooting him while slumped over the scuttle,if the Aga burns are accepted how are they going to fit in with Nevill lying against the Aga for some time? Not easy,just doesn't work,does it?
No,what the CCRC must,and have to do,is realise that the Aga burns is new evidence and decide the impact they would have had on the jury in 1986.They will also have to supply a new credible JB scenario around the marks,and if they continue to claim that the police did not move Nevill upon entry then for me a credible scenario is nigh on impossible.
So,to round things up,the police will either have to produce a credible scenario to the CCRC regarding the marks or admit they lied at trial by the fact that they moved Nevill upon entry.
As for this trumping the silencer evidence or Sheila's hands being clean,well it has to,the blood was inconclusive and Sheila washing her hands is no big deal whatsoever.The bottom line is,if the Aga burns prove that JB could not have been present at WHF when the shootings occurred then the silencer evidence is erroneous,simple as that!
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When you manage to get yourself up close and intimate enough with an AGA to use it daily and to lay down in front of it, in the position in which you believe Nevill to have been placed, wearing PJs exactly like his, and remaining in that position until the requisite marks occur, then have someone take a picture so you can show us, you might give Boyce's theory some credence. I emphatically do NOT believe that there are three hot places on an AGA, close enough together, which will burn someone's neck. Of course, the real point is that such proves little. It certainly doesn't make JB innocent. It was Nevill's blood in the coal scuttle.
Contrary to your demands of them, the CCRC doesn't HAVE to do anything.
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When you manage to get yourself up close and intimate enough with an AGA to use it daily and to lay down in front of it, in the position in which you believe Nevill to have been placed, wearing PJs exactly like his, and remaining in that position until the requisite marks occur, then have someone take a picture so you can show us, you might give Boyce's theory some credence. I emphatically do NOT believe that there are three hot places on an AGA, close enough together, which will burn someone's neck. Of course, the real point is that such proves little. It certainly doesn't make JB innocent. It was Nevill's blood in the coal scuttle.
Contrary to your demands of them, the CCRC doesn't HAVE to do anything.
Thanks Jane,you have made your views on the 'alleged' Aga burns clear.
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Contrary to your demands of them, the CCRC doesn't HAVE to do anything.
The CCRC are in crisis. Precisely because there are too many occasions were they don't do anything.. just as you suggest.
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When you manage to get yourself up close and intimate enough with an AGA to use it daily and to lay down in front of it, in the position in which you believe Nevill to have been placed, wearing PJs exactly like his, and remaining in that position until the requisite marks occur, then have someone take a picture so you can show us, you might give Boyce's theory some credence. I emphatically do NOT believe that there are three hot places on an AGA, close enough together, which will burn someone's neck. Of course, the real point is that such proves little. It certainly doesn't make JB innocent. It was Nevill's blood in the coal scuttle.
Contrary to your demands of them, the CCRC doesn't HAVE to do anything.
Aga's can get hot in places they shouldn't Jane, as I have posted before two people with Aga's I know confirm this.
I found this:
Is your Aga range cooker too hot on the outside but too cold on the inside? It's probably the insulation...
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The question is ultimately is this evidence strong enough to get a ccrc referral.
I don't think it is. In trying to overturn the original verdict
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The question is ultimately is this evidence strong enough to get a ccrc referral.
I don't think it is. In trying to overturn the original verdict
It is only one part of the referral remember ILB,and it definately wont hurt anyway.
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Just one other thing,for those of you who vehemently disagree that the Aga made the marks to Nevills back on the night of the shooting,just what DO you think made them?
Or are you in denial that they were made that night at all?
Or worse,do you believe that no matter what made them that they are of no importance to the case and dont have to be included in any scenario.
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It is only one part of the referral remember ILB,and it definately wont hurt anyway.
I agree snow it's a part of submission
I don't want to take your thread off topic but the key for me is Julie mugford.
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I agree snow it's a part of submission
I don't want to take your thread off topic but the key for me is Julie mugford.
Yes,you have pointed that out many times ILB.I think a lot about her evidence,maybe she just didn't know if JB did it or not.How could she,she wasn't with him that night.She may have simply been influenced by others,very tricky to judge.
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Yes,you have pointed that out many times ILB.I think a lot about her evidence,maybe she just didn't know if JB did it or not.How could she,she wasn't with him that night.She may have simply been influenced by others,very tricky to judge.
The fact of the matter is she went to court and gave evidence against him that he had confessed to the murders.
Anthony Arlidge leading counsel at trial is on record stating this is the strongest piece of evidence the crown had
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The fact of the matter is she went to court and gave evidence against him that he had confessed to the murders.
Anthony Arlidge leading counsel at trial is on record stating this is the strongest piece of evidence the crown had
Yes,but she did say everything sort of indirectly ILB,like the alleged confession ,it was more like him saying 'there must be something wrong with me' apparently,rather than'ok,ok I confess,it was me,I killed my family'. Nothing like that is ever mentioned ANYWHERE,ANYTIME that I have seen,is it?
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Yes,i am referring to the 'Aga' marks again,and what I mean is, that the fact that there are three of them makes it easier to match them to the source.I will also try and point out again why I believe the marks are very important.I am aware that most members see the marks as irrelevent,even supporters,nevertheless I will have another go at trying to point out why I think they would have been a game changer if they had been presented at trial and how they could be now.
Anyway,as I see it,proving that the Aga made the marks shouldn't cause much problem,as I said the fact that there are three marks limits the available sources of heat at WHF capable of causing the marks that night.One mark,yes,quite impossible to tie to any specific object,even two would be tricky.But three burns,which match the shape and spacing within millimetres of an image taken on pig skin from the Aga handles? The chances that another source of heat could have made similar marks must surely be astronomical!
As I say,that is the beauty of THREE marks,and not just marks,BURN MARKS.Think about it,Yvonne Hartley quite rightly pointed out that there were very few, if any,other sources of heat anywhere else in the WHF.And even if there were,just how would they manage to make contact with Nevills neck? Either Nevill lay against a heat source or someone held a hot object against him,he definately didn't take something and brand himself.
And even if someone did heat an object and burn Nevill,why would the burns be the same spacings as the image taken from the Aga on the pig skin?
Also,it has been proven by Boyce that if you place someone on their side in front of an Aga their neck is in line with the hot Aga knobs.
So,sorry to be so boring,but I believe that most reasonable people will conclude that the Aga cooker was indeed the cause of the marks on Nevills back.
Yet the likes of Jane continues to reject the Aga evidence by putting her fingers in her ears and uttering La,La,La,rather than facing the truth. [Sorry Jane,but tit for tat ^-^].
Now,for those of you who may have accepted that the Aga made the marks,let us look at what this could mean.What if the jury had known that the Aga made the marks,and that they took several minutes or maybe even hours to form,surely this would have had a profound effect on whether it was safe to convict Bamber?
And just how could Justice Drake have dismissed the burns to Nevill? He couldn't!
Just think it through and you may see the significance that the three little marks may have had at JBs trial.
Nevill lying against the Aga for any length of time doesn't fit well with a JB scenario,and we all know it.
The police scenario sent to the DPP has JB chasing JB to the kitchen then shooting him while slumped over the scuttle,if the Aga burns are accepted how are they going to fit in Nevill lying against the Aga for some time? Not easy,just doesn't work,does it?
No,what the CCRC must,and have to do,is realise that the Aga burns is new evidence and decide the impact they would have had on the jury in 1986.They will also have to supply a new credible JB scenario around the marks,and if they continue to claim that the police did not move Nevill upon entry then for me a credible scenario is nigh on impossible.
So,to round things up,the police will either have to produce a credible scenario to the CCRC regarding the marks or admit they lied at trial by the fact that they moved Nevill upon entry.
As for this trumping the silencer evidence or Sheila's hands being clean,well it has to,the blood was inconclusive and Sheila washing her hands is no big deal whatsoever.The bottom line is,if the Aga burns prove that JB could not have been present at WHF when the shootings occurred then the silencer evidence is erroneous,simple as that!
Heating the pig skin should have formed similar or identical marks - where's the pig skin?
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It is good that Snow has found an angle in looking for a technicality for Bamber.
Just repeatedly saying the hundreds of pieces of forensic & circumstantial evidence is wrong and everyone lied will never work.
However the aga burns theory is just properganda.
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Aga's can get hot in places they shouldn't Jane, as I have posted before two people with Aga's I know confirm this.
I found this:
Is your Aga range cooker too hot on the outside but too cold on the inside? It's probably the insulation...
Isn't this just grabbing at straws? Our AGA is circa 1930, it's serviced yearly. The only times that there are blips is when the oil is low, thus it isn't as hot as it should be. I would assume that the Bambers. too, had theirs serviced regularly, and, as yet, no one has come forward to say their model was regularly troublesome, OR that the insulation wasn't sufficient, which points to IF there had been one of those one off blips to which you refer, it would have been extremely coincidental.
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If it didn't get hot, the pig skin wouldn't have burned. Is this argument about different fuel or something?
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If it didn't get hot, the pig skin wouldn't have burned. Is this argument about different fuel or something?
Surely, irrelevant of the fuel creating it, hot is hot is hot? But I'm pretty certain that during summer months, the Bamber AGA would have been turned down to its lowest heat producing capacity. They wouldn't have needed it to heat the kitchen or radiators in other rooms. They wouldn't have needed it for cooking. They probably wouldn't have needed it to heat water. We were told that Boyce carried out his experiment under strict scientific conditions. Exactly how would he have known how hot the Bamber AGA was on that particular night? The only way I can think of is that he started from cold and kept upping the temperature until it burned the pigskin. Might that suggest Nevill was indeed, tortured?
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Yes,i am referring to the 'Aga' marks again,and what I mean is, that the fact that there are three of them makes it easier to match them to the source.I will also try and point out again why I believe the marks are very important.I am aware that most members see the marks as irrelevent,even supporters,nevertheless I will have another go at trying to point out why I think they would have been a game changer if they had been presented at trial and how they could be now.
Anyway,as I see it,proving that the Aga made the marks shouldn't cause much problem,as I said the fact that there are three marks limits the available sources of heat at WHF capable of causing the marks that night.One mark,yes,quite impossible to tie to any specific object,even two would be tricky.But three burns,which match the shape and spacing within millimetres of an image taken on pig skin from the Aga handles? The chances that another source of heat could have made similar marks must surely be astronomical!
As I say,that is the beauty of THREE marks,and not just marks,BURN MARKS.Think about it,Yvonne Hartley quite rightly pointed out that there were very few, if any,other sources of heat anywhere else in the WHF.And even if there were,just how would they manage to make contact with Nevills neck? Either Nevill lay against a heat source or someone held a hot object against him,he definately didn't take something and brand himself.
And even if someone did heat an object and burn Nevill,why would the burns be the same spacings as the image taken from the Aga on the pig skin?
Also,it has been proven by Boyce that if you place someone on their side in front of an Aga their neck is in line with the hot Aga knobs.
So,sorry to be so boring,but I believe that most reasonable people will conclude that the Aga cooker was indeed the cause of the marks on Nevills back.
Yet the likes of Jane continues to reject the Aga evidence by putting her fingers in her ears and uttering La,La,La,rather than facing the truth. [Sorry Jane,but tit for tat ^-^].
Now,for those of you who may have accepted that the Aga made the marks,let us look at what this could mean.What if the jury had known that the Aga made the marks,and that they took several minutes or maybe even hours to form,surely this would have had a profound effect on whether it was safe to convict Bamber?
And just how could Justice Drake have dismissed the burns to Nevill? He couldn't!
Just think it through and you may see the significance that the three little marks may have had at JBs trial.
Nevill lying against the Aga for any length of time doesn't fit well with a JB scenario,and we all know it.
The police scenario sent to the DPP has JB chasing JB to the kitchen then shooting him while slumped over the scuttle,if the Aga burns are accepted how are they going to fit in Nevill lying against the Aga for some time? Not easy,just doesn't work,does it?
No,what the CCRC must,and have to do,is realise that the Aga burns is new evidence and decide the impact they would have had on the jury in 1986.They will also have to supply a new credible JB scenario around the marks,and if they continue to claim that the police did not move Nevill upon entry then for me a credible scenario is nigh on impossible.
So,to round things up,the police will either have to produce a credible scenario to the CCRC regarding the marks or admit they lied at trial by the fact that they moved Nevill upon entry.
As for this trumping the silencer evidence or Sheila's hands being clean,well it has to,the blood was inconclusive and Sheila washing her hands is no big deal whatsoever.The bottom line is,if the Aga burns prove that JB could not have been present at WHF when the shootings occurred then the silencer evidence is erroneous,simple as that!
The stuff of fantasy land.
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I agree snow it's a part of submission
Its snow good!
I don't want to take your thread off topic but the key for me is Julie mugford.
Don't then.
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Its snow good!
Don't then.
Bit bitchy....
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Bit bitchy....
If that's your interpretation...
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It is good that Snow has found an angle in looking for a technicality for Bamber.
Just repeatedly saying the hundreds of pieces of forensic & circumstantial evidence is wrong and everyone lied will never work.
However the aga burns theory is just properganda.
Thanks for that Adam.
ILB
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Heating the pig skin should have formed similar or identical marks - where's the pig skin?
I dont know Zoso,hopefully with the CCRC.
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It is good that Snow has found an angle in looking for a technicality for Bamber.
Just repeatedly saying the hundreds of pieces of forensic & circumstantial evidence is wrong and everyone lied will never work.
However the aga burns theory is just properganda.
Propaganda or not Adam the issue of the burns is with the CCRC,so look out.
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Have to agree with the Silk in the theroux documentary
" has to be something of a slam dunk nature "
Unfortunately nothing I have seen so far is of that magnitude in all aspects.
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The stuff of fantasy land.
Thanks Cutes!
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Propaganda or not Adam the issue of the burns is with the CCRC,so look out.
We dont need to look out. We will hear the thump when the 'statement of reasons' lands with Bamber's people: D-I-S-M-I-S-S-E-D!
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I dont know Zoso,hopefully with the CCRC.
Well, the actual pig skin would have decomposed, but he should have pictures, why didn't he reveal images in his video?
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We dont need to look out. We will hear the thump when the 'statement of reasons' lands with Bamber's people: D-I-S-M-I-S-S-E-D!
I tend to agree.
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Well, the actual pig skin would have decomposed, but he should have pictures, why didn't he reveal images in his video?
I honestly dont know why he didn't show the results Zoso.
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Well, the actual pig skin would have decomposed, but he should have pictures, why didn't he reveal images in his video?
He does actually show the pig skin in the video Zoso,you can see two of the marks at least.
Have another peep.
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Matt Harris who made the Boyce video and seems to be a supporter announced that he was making a documentary on the Bamber case.
Anyone heard anything about it as of yet?
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Matt Harris who made the Boyce video and seems to be a supporter announced that he was making a documentary on the Bamber case.
Anyone heard anything about it as of yet?
Think it was in very early stages but then fell by the wayside.
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I honestly dont know why he didn't show the results Zoso.
So you're blindly supporting something?
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Think it was in very early stages but then fell by the wayside.
Thanks Roch,thats a pity.
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Thanks Roch,thats a pity.
Par for the course for Bamber supporters. We are the underdogs. It's like Sunderland Vs Brazil. They have all the resources, hidden documents, media assistance, power etc.
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Par for the course for Bamber supporters. We are the underdogs. It's like Sunderland Vs Brazil. They have all the resources, hidden documents, media assistance, power etc.
Very true!
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So you're blindly supporting something?
Put it any way you like Zoso,I trust Boyce.
If his findings turn out to be rubbish feel free to call me a gullible idiot,I wont mind!
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Par for the course for Bamber supporters. We are the underdogs. It's like Sunderland Vs Brazil. They have all the resources, hidden documents, media assistance, power etc.
Many years ago Jeremy told me that when the COLP investigation was taking place ( believe it was 91 when it took place ) the system moved him to HMP Frankland purposefully ( a category A prison just outside of Durham ) when his legal team were based obviously in his native Essex and London.
He said this was done to jeopardize the communication and cause him hassle. This was pre internet and written communication was the norm. ( at least from a category A prisoner perspective ) And knowing the system like I do I believe he was correct.
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Many years ago Jeremy told me that when the COLP investigation was taking place ( believe it was 91 when it took place ) the system moved him to HMP Frankland purposefully ( a category A prison just outside of Durham ) when his legal team were based obviously in his native Essex and London.
He said this was done to jeopardize the communication and cause him hassle. This was pre internet and written communication was the norm. ( at least from a category A prisoner perspective ) And knowing the system like I do I believe he was correct.
That wasn't the time his family appealed his Cat status was it ILB and he was moved back to Cat A was it?
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Many years ago Jeremy told me that when the COLP investigation was taking place ( believe it was 91 when it took place ) the system moved him to HMP Frankland purposefully ( a category A prison just outside of Durham ) when his legal team were based obviously in his native Essex and London.
He said this was done to jeopardize the communication and cause him hassle. This was pre internet and written communication was the norm. ( at least from a category A prisoner perspective ) And knowing the system like I do I believe he was correct.
Listened to a podcast this morning, Shaun Attwood talking to Stephen Gillen, who was in Long Lartin, he said Fred Lowe was one of the most Dangerous Prisoners?
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Put it any way you like Zoso,I trust Boyce.
If his findings turn out to be rubbish feel free to call me a gullible idiot,I wont mind!
It does look like the Aga made the marks Snow, but I tend to believe that Nevil got the burns/marks while laying unconscious against it while the crime was taking place and he was not moved from the floor to the chair by the police?
If this is the case this to me strongly points to Sheila? If Nevil was against the Aga wounded Bamber would just finish him off where he lay.
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Listened to a podcast this morning, Shaun Attwood talking to Stephen Gillen, who was in Long Lartin, he said Fred Lowe was one of the most Dangerous Prisoners?
Fred lowe was a brick shithouse built Scottish bloke who had got lifed off in the late 70s early 80s. He was ferried all over the CAT A establishments spending much time down the block He died a few years ago in Wakefield.
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Fred lowe was a brick shithouse built Scottish bloke who had got lifed off in the late 70s early 80s. He was ferried all over the CAT A establishments spending much time down the block He died a few years ago in Wakefield.
This Gillan guy seems a character as well, iv'e listened to one Podcast he's done with Shaun Attwood and i think he did another. Another good podcast with Shaun, was from a retired Governor 4, she's another character Vanessa Frake. She started off at Holloway and then went to the men's prison at Wormwood Scrubs.
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This Gillan guy seems a character as well, iv'e listened to one Podcast he's done with Shaun Attwood and i think he did another. Another good podcast with Shaun, was from a retired Governor 4, she's another character Vanessa Frake. She started off at Holloway and then went to the men's prison at Wormwood Scrubs.
The scrubs is a shithole, I've never spent time there but I've heard from many a friend and acquittance who have.
It's where Jeremy began his sentence after conviction
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In fact all CAT B locals are shitholes in my experience. HMP Winson green ( Birmingham) was the pits, worst time of my life.
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It does look like the Aga made the marks Snow, but I tend to believe that Nevil got the burns/marks while laying unconscious against it while the crime was taking place and he was not moved from the floor to the chair by the police?
If this is the case this to me strongly points to Sheila? If Nevil was against the Aga wounded Bamber would just finish him off where he lay.
Thanks Rob.Yes,the Aga marks point to a guilty Sheila and the guilters know this,that is why they refuse to accept Boyce's findings.
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It does look like the Aga made the marks Snow, but I tend to believe that Nevil got the burns/marks while laying unconscious against it while the crime was taking place and he was not moved from the floor to the chair by the police?
If this is the case this to me strongly points to Sheila? If Nevil was against the Aga wounded Bamber would just finish him off where he lay.
I favour this take on the Aga being responsible for the marks.
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Bamber used the nearest items to him - chair/stool.
Then lifted Nevill into place. He was strong enough.
This was so he could pull his pyjama top up, burn his back and shoot him in the head 4 more times.
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There is no possibility Nevill laid on a cold aga door & burnt his back.
Then the police put his pyjama top on and moved him.
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Thanks Rob.Yes,the Aga marks point to a guilty Sheila and the guilters know this,that is why they refuse to accept Boyce's findings.
Been there loads of times with these so called experts Snow, i haven't even bothered to look at this Boyce guy's claims. I remember and NGB will remeber when a Dr Caruso from Aizona, an expert concluded that the three burns to Nevill's neck were consistent with contact with the heated end of the rifle, without either the silencer or the end cap fitted. Pig Skin was used in this test as well.
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Bamber used the nearest items to him - chair/stool.
Then lifted Nevill into place. He was strong enough.
This was so he could pull his pyjama top up, burn his back and shoot him in the head 4 more times.
Thanks Adam
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Thanks Adam
My pleasure.
You need to find a focus for a technicality. Snow has found the aga.
If you are not going to visit the Sea Wall, let the forum know what it is.
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My pleasure.
You need to find a focus for a technicality. Snow has found the aga.
If you are not going to visit the Sea Wall, let the forum know what it is.
Please let me know your stance by tonight then, then I will happily oblige
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Please let me know your stance by tonight then, then I will happily oblige
Just saying all evidence is wrong and all witnesses lied won't work.There is too much of it.
Technicalities can work. Although not in this case so far.
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Just saying all evidence is wrong and all witnesses lied won't work.
There is too much of it.
Technicalities can work. Although not in this case so far.
Just the same as you, looking at the case and offering logical reasoning. You from your perspective. Me from mine
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Been there loads of times with these so called experts Snow, i haven't even bothered to look at this Boyce guy's claims. I remember and NGB will remeber when a Dr Caruso from Aizona, an expert concluded that the three burns to Nevill's neck were consistent with contact with the heated end of the rifle, without either the silencer or the end cap fitted. Pig Skin was used in this test as well.
The thing is HB, if the Aga did make the marks then this is in Bambers favour,however if it had been accepted long ago that the rifle barrel made the marks it still would not have proven who was holding the rifle at the time,hence the findings would have favoured no one.
Nevill lying against the Aga has to favour Bamber unless you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry.Even then the police would have some explaining to do.
And one other thing,if Bamber killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga he would have known what made the marks,and it goes without saying that he must have known that the rifle did not make the marks.So why waste precious time and money trying to prove that the rifle DID make the marks?
Senseless surely.
I have always thought that its the things that JB hasn't known about or brought up that points to his innocence.
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Just the same as you, looking at the case and offering logical reasoning. You from your perspective. Me from mine
You need to accept the incriminating evidence is correct. But look for a technicality.
But choosing something Bamber has already tried won't work.
That is why I suggested you visit the Sea Wall at night.
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You need to accept the incriminating evidence is correct. But look for a technicality.
But choosing something Bamber has already tried won't work.
That is why I suggested you visit the Sea Wall at night.
You have failed in your objective in convincing me Jeremy Bamber is a gulity man.
What has Bamber tried?
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You have failed in your objective in convincing me Jeremy Bamber is a gulity man.
What has Bamber tried?
It is not me trying to convince you. It is the evidence.
Bamber has appealed in 89 & 2002. CCRC submissions in 2012 & 2021.
The details are in each of these.
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Doesn't anyone see,that if Bamber did kill Nevill and leave him by the Aga,then OBVIOUSLY he would have known that the police moved Nevill.so why wait 37 years before suggesting to Boyce that the Aga may have made the marks? Why not suggest the Aga made them before his trial and therefore prove that the police moved Nevill? He would most likely have been aquitted even if guilty.
The fact that JB did not mention the Aga as the possible source of the marks for all these years MUST surely prove that JB did NOT know what made the marks and did not kill Nevill and leave him against the Aga,hence if the Aga DID make the marks the only one who knew that is dead-Sheila.
So it isn't just the Aga marks for me that point to JBs innocence,its the sequence of events that has unfolded in the last 38 years.
So for me,if the Aga burns are accepted,surely logic tells us that JB must surely be innocent.
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It is not me trying to convince you. It is the evidence.
Bamber has appealed in 89 & 2002. CCRC submissions in 2012 & 2021.
The details are in each of these.
He has one full appeal in 2002
In 1989 leave was refused be a single judge prior to a COA full hearing
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Par for the course for Bamber supporters. We are the underdogs. It's like Sunderland Vs Brazil. They have all the resources, hidden documents, media assistance, power etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyvZlsBQr-c :'(
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The thing is HB, if the Aga did make the marks then this is in Bambers favour,however if it had been accepted long ago that the rifle barrel made the marks it still would not have proven who was holding the rifle at the time,hence the findings would have favoured no one.
Nevill lying against the Aga has to favour Bamber unless you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry.Even then the police would have some explaining to do.
And one other thing,if Bamber killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga he would have known what made the marks,and it goes without saying that he must have known that the rifle did not make the marks.So why waste precious time and money trying to prove that the rifle DID make the marks?
Senseless surely.
I have always thought that its the things that JB hasn't known about or brought up that points to his innocence.
Proving that the Aga made those marks would be near on impossible from the photo's Snow, especially when you have had previous experts all say different things. Vanezis was unsure, Knight didn't even think they was Burn marks he thought they was Bruises and the Arizona test expert has already given his opinion that they was caused by the rifle, if anything i thought this would have carried more weight for Jeremy with the CCRC, especially saying that they was caused without the silencer attached. i think the Dickinson report leans more to and attribute's the marks to a poker.?
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As for this trumping the silencer evidence or Sheila's hands being clean,well it has to,the blood was inconclusive and Sheila washing her hands is no big deal whatsoever.The bottom line is,if the Aga burns prove that JB could not have been present at WHF when the shootings occurred then the silencer evidence is erroneous,simple as that!
For Sheila to be the Killer she must have pre planned what she was going to do, first she had to find the silencer and attach it to the rifle [because Jeremy said he went to shoot Rabbits without it being on the rifle] we can only assume this was in the cupboard according to Jeremy, she had to kill everyone possibly with the silencer fitted, because it's possible that there was mixture of June's and Neville's blood also inside the silencer? Even, Even if Sheila's blood wasn't in the silencer, she then had to put the silencer back in the cupboard in a box and wash her hands before commiting suicide?
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Doesn't anyone see,that if Bamber did kill Nevilland leave him by the Aga,then OBVIOUSLY he would have known that the police moved Nevill.so why wait 37 years before suggesting to Boyce that the Aga may have made the marks? Why not suggest the Aga made them before his trial and therefore prove that the police moved Nevill? He would most likely have been aquitted even if guilty.
The fact that JB did not mention the Aga as the possible source of the marks for all these years MUST surely prove that JB did NOT know what made the marks and did not kill Nevill and leave him against the Aga,hence if the Aga DID make the marks the only one who knew that is dead-Sheila.
So it isn't just the Aga marks for me that point to JBs innocence,its the sequence of events that has unfolded in the last 38 years.
So for me,if the Aga burns are accepted,surely logic tells us that JB must surely be innocent.
Snow, have you never heard of reverse psychology? ie, JB didn't mention.................because having such knowledge would have put him closer to being the culprit. Not that I believe the AGA was the cause of NB's marks, but let's be honest, how many AGA users/owns do you know who've received burns to their necks/backs through contact with their appliance?
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It seems that Boyce's pig flesh experiment (2011) was turned down by the High Court (2013). It's also said that JB has all the information on what was dismissed, and why, but refuses to release them.
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Yes,i am referring to the 'Aga' marks again,and what I mean is, that the fact that there are three of them makes it easier to match them to the source.I will also try and point out again why I believe the marks are very important.I am aware that most members see the marks as irrelevent,even supporters,nevertheless I will have another go at trying to point out why I think they would have been a game changer if they had been presented at trial and how they could be now.
Anyway,as I see it,proving that the Aga made the marks shouldn't cause much problem,as I said the fact that there are three marks limits the available sources of heat at WHF capable of causing the marks that night.One mark,yes,quite impossible to tie to any specific object,even two would be tricky.But three burns,which match the shape and spacing within millimetres of an image taken on pig skin from the Aga handles? The chances that another source of heat could have made similar marks must surely be astronomical!
As I say,that is the beauty of THREE marks,and not just marks,BURN MARKS.Think about it,Yvonne Hartley quite rightly pointed out that there were very few, if any,other sources of heat anywhere else in the WHF.And even if there were,just how would they manage to make contact with Nevills neck? Either Nevill lay against a heat source or someone held a hot object against him,he definately didn't take something and brand himself.
And even if someone did heat an object and burn Nevill,why would the burns be the same spacings as the image taken from the Aga on the pig skin?
Also,it has been proven by Boyce that if you place someone on their side in front of an Aga their neck is in line with the hot Aga knobs.
So,sorry to be so boring,but I believe that most reasonable people will conclude that the Aga cooker was indeed the cause of the marks on Nevills back.
Yet the likes of Jane continues to reject the Aga evidence by putting her fingers in her ears and uttering La,La,La,rather than facing the truth. [Sorry Jane,but tit for tat ^-^].
Now,for those of you who may have accepted that the Aga made the marks,let us look at what this could mean.What if the jury had known that the Aga made the marks,and that they took several minutes or maybe even hours to form,surely this would have had a profound effect on whether it was safe to convict Bamber?
And just how could Justice Drake have dismissed the burns to Nevill? He couldn't!
Just think it through and you may see the significance that the three little marks may have had at JBs trial.
Nevill lying against the Aga for any length of time doesn't fit well with a JB scenario,and we all know it.
The police scenario sent to the DPP has JB chasing JB to the kitchen then shooting him while slumped over the scuttle,if the Aga burns are accepted how are they going to fit in with Nevill lying against the Aga for some time? Not easy,just doesn't work,does it?
No,what the CCRC must,and have to do,is realise that the Aga burns is new evidence and decide the impact they would have had on the jury in 1986.They will also have to supply a new credible JB scenario around the marks,and if they continue to claim that the police did not move Nevill upon entry then for me a credible scenario is nigh on impossible.
So,to round things up,the police will either have to produce a credible scenario to the CCRC regarding the marks or admit they lied at trial by the fact that they moved Nevill upon entry.
As for this trumping the silencer evidence or Sheila's hands being clean,well it has to,the blood was inconclusive and Sheila washing her hands is no big deal whatsoever.The bottom line is,if the Aga burns prove that JB could not have been present at WHF when the shootings occurred then the silencer evidence is erroneous,simple as that!
The pathologist said Nevill's found position (as per soc images) was consistent with rm. At what point do you believe Nevill was lying against the Aga?
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Snow, have you never heard of reverse psychology? ie, JB didn't mention.................because having such knowledge would have put him closer to being the culprit. Not that I believe the AGA was the cause of NB's marks, but let's be honest, how many AGA users/owns do you know who've received burns to their necks/backs through contact with their appliance?
So speaks Mystic Jane mind reader extraordinaire.
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Doesn't anyone see,that if Bamber did kill Nevill and leave him by the Aga,then OBVIOUSLY he would have known that the police moved Nevill.so why wait 37 years before suggesting to Boyce that the Aga may have made the marks? Why not suggest the Aga made them before his trial and therefore prove that the police moved Nevill? He would most likely have been aquitted even if guilty.
The fact that JB did not mention the Aga as the possible source of the marks for all these years MUST surely prove that JB did NOT know what made the marks and did not kill Nevill and leave him against the Aga,hence if the Aga DID make the marks the only one who knew that is dead-Sheila.
So it isn't just the Aga marks for me that point to JBs innocence,its the sequence of events that has unfolded in the last 38 years.
So for me,if the Aga burns are accepted,surely logic tells us that JB must surely be innocent.
I fully support Snow's reasoning on this aspect of the case. I have more say on this and will post later.
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I fully support Snow's reasoning on this aspect of the case. I have more say on this and will post later.
I doubt the CCRC/CoA will support Snow's reasoning on this apsect of the case. Why would they when the HO and defence pathologists confirmed soc images of Nevill's found position align with rm?
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I fully support Snow's reasoning on this aspect of the case.I have more say on this and will post later.
Please do us all a favour and make it brief.
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I doubt the CCRC/CoA will support Snow's reasoning on this apsect of the case. Why would they when the HO and defence pathologists confirmed soc images of Nevill's found position align with rm?
PV is a crook and a patsy.
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Please do us all a favour and make it brief.
It will be a view. I do not believe in answering complex questions with one liners. Still playing silly games I see.
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PV is a crook and a patsy.
And your evidence for the above?
Pathologist for the defence, Prof Knight, fact checked all Vanezis' trial testimony.
Vanezis trial testimony was not even harmful to Bamber.
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It will be a view. I do not believe in answering complex questions with one liners. Still playing silly games I see.
There's nothing remotely complex about the marks on Nevill's back in relation to the case. They are a non-feature.
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Vanezis trial testimony was not even harmful to Bamber.
It was extremely harmful to Bamber. He lied about the existence of fight wounds on Sheila Caffell.
It is not my 'perception' that the wounds exist. Anymore than it is my perception regarding Sheila's hair colour. We don't need Vidal Sassoon to have worked with her body post mortem, to tell us what colour Sheila's hair was.
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It was extremely harmful to Bamber. He lied about the existence of fight wounds on Sheila Caffell.
Did Prof Knight for the defence lie too?
Why did these so-called "fight wounds" not feature in Vanezis pm notes? This was at a time all concerned thought it was murder/suicide.
I tell what is harmful to Bamber: spurious claims that simply do not stack up with all the known facts.
It is not my 'perception' that the wounds exist. Anymore than it is my perception regarding Sheila's hair colour. We don't need Vidal Sassoon to have worked with her body post mortem, to tell us what colour Sheila's hair was.
We might if it was coloured and case relevant.
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Did Prof Knight for the defence lie too?
Why did these so-called "fight wounds" not feature in Vanezis pm notes? This was at a time all concerned thought it was murder/suicide.
I tell what is harmful to Bamber: spurious claims that simply do not stack up with all the known facts.
We might if it was coloured and case relevant.
If anyone can show me evidence of what Knight was tasked to do, in respect of negatives, crime scene and post mortem images, then please do so. Even better if there's any evidence of the methods he used for such examinations.
As for spurious claims, I would have thought the negatives are negatives. They are inanimate objects which record a snapshot from one or two days in August 1985. As such, I do not think the label spurious can be applied to them.
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Think it was in very early stages but then fell by the wayside.
I believe the documentary is still planned.
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At what point do you believe Nevill was lying against the Aga?
Personally I'm with Rob on this, IF the Aga was responsible. I'm not sure why Boyce chose to narrow down the options.
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There's nothing remotely complex about the marks on Nevill's back in relation to the case. They are a non-feature.
Exactly, they don't answer who the killer is - they just create more questions which can't be answered. Boyce's claim that it mean Nevill was moved by the police is ridiculous and I would tell him that myself
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Exactly, they don't answer who the killer is - they just create more questions which can't be answered. Boyce's claim that it mean Nevill was moved by the police is ridiculous and I would tell him that myself
Boyce's claim may be erroneous. But that doesn't exclude the Aga being the cause of the marks. If Boyce's claim is erroneous, but the Aga did cause the marks, then that impacts upon the sequence and circumstances of events.
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Boyce's claim may be erroneous. But that doesn't exclude the Aga being the cause of the marks. If Boyce's claim is erroneous, but the Aga did cause the marks, then that impacts upon the sequence and circumstances of events.
Both pathologists agreed soc images of Nevill are consistent with rm. The idea Nevill was on the floor wedged against the Aga with the police moving him as per soc images is a complete non-starter.
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Personally I'm with Rob on this, IF the Aga was responsible. I'm not sure why Boyce chose to narrow down the options.
Boyce is a ballistics expert not a pathologist. 11 years ago Boyce was claiming the marks were caused by the barrel of the rifle having been heated up.
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Both pathologists agreed soc images of Nevill are consistent with rm. The idea Nevill was on the floor wedged against the Aga with the police moving him as per soc images is a complete non-starter.
You haven't read my post properly CC.
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Boyce is a ballistics expert not a pathologist. 11 years ago Boyce was claiming the marks were caused by the barrel of the rifle having been heated up.
Yes but three problems occurred.
Firstly, the peer reviewer advised more experimentation was required to confirm this - but the CT ran out of time / funding.
Secondly, the only way to heat the end of the barrel to sufficient temperature would be by using the Aga.
Thirdly, in more recent times the Aga itself has come into focus as a potential cause.
Point 1 somehow allowed the CCRC to ghost all the expert evidence regarding Sheila's throat. Which has been left unchallenged.
Start at the oldest articles on CCRC Watch and work your way up. Only then will you understand the claptrap about the blood in the SM being stronger than the burns experts.
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You haven't read my post properly CC.
What point are you endeavouring to make then?
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What point are you endeavouring to make then?
Boyce's suggestions that the police moved Nevill and that the Aga caused the burns are not mutually exclusive. On the info we have so far, the Aga can cause the burns without police moving Nevill.
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Boyce's suggestions that the police moved Nevill and that the Aga caused the burns are not mutually exclusive. On the info we have so far, the Aga can cause the burns without police moving Nevill.
Boyce needs to stick to his area of expertise.
There's no evidence the police moved Nevill. Both pathologists agreed rm was consistent with his found position.
Numerous means of heating a metal implement to inflict burns but there's no evidence of it happening here.
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Boyce needs to stick to his area of expertise.
There's no evidence the police moved Nevill. Both pathologists agreed rm was consistent with his found position.
Numerous means of heating a metal implement to inflict burns but there's no evidence of it happening here.
The original clam from MT was that Nevill was toppled when they forced entry. He claimed that's why the coal scuttle was used.
I'm not that interested in the Aga evidence tbh. I'm more of a wounds man myself... if you hadn't already guessed.
Anyway, thought you would have at least checked the Manchester video on my profile and commented about it on the relevant thread 😏
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Boyce needs to stick to his area of expertise.
There's no evidence the police moved Nevill. Both pathologists agreed rm was consistent with his found position.
Numerous means of heating a metal implement to inflict burns but there's no evidence of it happening here.
Except for the 3 marks on Nevill's back.
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Except for the 3 marks on Nevill's back.
Oh yes you reminded me the marks are burns!
Pathologists could not be sure they were recent.
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The original clam from MT was that Nevill was toppled when they forced entry. He claimed that's why the coal scuttle was used.
I'm not that interested in the Aga evidence tbh. I'm more of a wounds man myself... if you hadn't already guessed.
Anyway, thought you would have at least checked the Manchester video on my profile and commented about it on the relevant thread 😏
MT? Michael Turner? Nuff said.
I'll have a look at your tagline.
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MT? Michael Turner? Nuff said.
I'll have a look at your tagline.
Mike Tesko.
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Proving that the Aga made those marks would be near on impossible from the photo's Snow, especially when you have had previous experts all say different things. Vanezis was unsure, Knight didn't even think they was Burn marks he thought they was Bruises and the Arizona test expert has already given his opinion that they was caused by the rifle, if anything i thought this would have carried more weight for Jeremy with the CCRC, especially saying that they was caused without the silencer attached. i think the Dickinson report leans more to and attribute's the marks to a poker.?
Not so hard to prove what made the marks from photos really HB,the beauty is that they have survived and have a tape measure along side the marks showing the EXACT spacings between them which is crucial when comparing them with the images on Boyces pig skin.
How can the CCRC study the images of Nevills back and the pig skin images and deny that the marks were made by the same source? Not a chance if the spacings are identical surely?
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Not so hard to prove what made the marks from photos really HB,the beauty is that they have survived and have a tape measure along side the marks showing the EXACT spacings between them which is crucial when comparing them with the images on Boyces pig skin.
How can the CCRC study the images of Nevills back and the pig skin images and deny that the marks were made by the same source? Not a chance if the spacings are identical surely?
You now have to prove who moved his body then Snow, because the police who first entered the House say his head was in the coal scuttle and his body was on the chair, this claim backed up by photo's.
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Snow, have you never heard of reverse psychology? ie, JB didn't mention.................because having such knowledge would have put him closer to being the culprit. Not that I believe the AGA was the cause of NB's marks, but let's be honest, how many AGA users/owns do you know who've received burns to their necks/backs through contact with their appliance?
I hear what your saying Jane,but it simply doesn't stand up.
There were very few sources of heat at the WHF,so JB or anyone else mentioning the Aga as a possible source of the burne to Nevill would have caused no suspicion whatsoever, ZERO! Not in 1985 nor any time since,so why o why would Bamber keep quiet about something that could work in his favour ie,that the police moved Nevill? Ridiculous.
Its the same as the Bible,if guilty he smearsd it with bloody fingerprints,left a note in it and opened it at a specific place,yet when his defence team were lied to and told that the Bible had been destroyed before the trial JB made no fuss about this.Doesn't logic tell us that JB had no idea of the importance of the Bible and thats why he didn't make a fuss about its alleged destruction?
Truthfully,in all likelyhood if the Bible and its evidence had been given to the defence instead of being hidden away it would have had a dramatic effect on the outcome at trial.
So the bottom line for me is,if the Aga burns are accepted by the CCRC Bamber is innocent whether the police moved Nevill or not.
Let me explain,if Nevill lay against the Aga unconcious for several minutes or hours then got up and was shot to death on the chair/scuttle this points to an innocent Bamber because obviously JB would not waste time waiting hours for the marks to form.He would have killed everyone as quick as possible and fled the scene.Only Sheila fits into this scenario as she was in the house all night.
Now,if JB killed Nevill and left him against the Aga and fled,this means that the police moved Nevill after entry, and that takes us back to the argument of keeping quiet about the source of the marks for 37 years and the fact that the police must have moved Nevill.,both facts that JB must have been aware of all these years,yet like the Bible did not use the knowledge to his advantage.Ridiculous,as I say.
Now I know that very few members give the marks much importance,but if they are accepted I think the prosecution case against JB is severely weakened.The marks are bad,bad news that only point to a guilty Sheila,they scream out that Bamber is innocent.
So it doesn't really matter if the police moved Bamber or not,nor who's scanario is nearest to the truth,if the Aga made the marks Bamber must logically be innocent,and I think a re-trial would convince a jury of this.
As for users burning their neck on an Aga Jane,I would imagine this happens fairly regularly amongst those who take a bucket and snuggle up to them! ^-^
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Boyce's claim may be erroneous. But that doesn't exclude the Aga being the cause of the marks. If Boyce's claim is erroneous, but the Aga did cause the marks, then that impacts upon the sequence and circumstances of events.
But you can't PROVE either, nor that it impacts on anything. All it does it create a whole new set of questions, but none of those exonerate Bamber.
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You now have to prove who moved his body then Snow, because the police who first entered the House say his head was in the coal scuttle and his body was on the chair, this claim backed up by photo's.
If you check my posts HB,you will find that I have never claimed that the police moved Nevill.
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Not so hard to prove what made the marks from photos really HB,the beauty is that they have survived and have a tape measure along side the marks showing the EXACT spacings between them which is crucial when comparing them with the images on Boyces pig skin.
How can the CCRC study the images of Nevills back and the pig skin images and deny that the marks were made by the same source? Not a chance if the spacings are identical surely?
You haven't seen Boyce's pig skin and that 'brief' look at it in the video showed two marks. Even if you could prove 100% that the marks came from the Aga (which I doubt), how does that exonerate Bamber?
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You haven't seen Boyce's pig skin and that 'brief' look at it in the video showed two marks. Even if you could prove 100% that the marks came from the Aga (which I doubt), how does that exonerate Bamber?
I have tried to explain how it exonerates Bamber from every possible angle Zoso,sorry that it has had no effect on you.
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I have tried to explain how it exonerates Bamber from every possible angle Zoso,sorry that it has had no effect on you.
The police wouldn't put Nevill's pyjama top on. Then move him onto the coal scuttle/chair.
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The police wouldn't put Nevill's pyjama top on. Then move him onto the coal scuttle/chair.
Adam,I dont believe ANYONE lifted Nevill on to the chair/scuttle!
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Adam,I dont believe ANYONE lifted Nevill on to the chair/scuttle!
Good.
The aga door would be hot. It is so thick all the heat stays inside.
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Adam,I dont believe ANYONE lifted Nevill on to the chair/scuttle!
So how is Bamber exonerated?
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If you check my posts HB,you will find that I have never claimed that the police moved Nevill.
I never said you did, i said you have to prove who moved him from the AGA to the chair where the police found him. Anyone can make any claim, proving it is another thing. Different experts have all given their idea's as well, it's not proof though.
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Good.
The aga door would be hot. It is so thick all the heat stays inside.
Its the handles that got hot Adam,maybe they are made of different matal than the doors and conduct heat better?
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I have tried to explain how it exonerates Bamber from every possible angle Zoso,sorry that it has had no effect on you.
How?
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I never said you did, i said you have to prove who moved him from the AGA to the chair where the police found him. Anyone can make any claim, proving it is another thing. Different experts have all given their idea's as well, it's not proof though.
Exactly, even if you could prove it was the Aga, Bamber could have killed everyone earlier and STILL moved Nevill before leaving the house.
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It is correct that the pathologist does not say any of Nevill's injuries were from falling onto the coal scuttle
They were either bullets or from the rifle butt.
This confirms Bamber placed him onto the coal scuttle/chair. To get good access to his back and head.
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Adam,I dont believe ANYONE lifted Nevill on to the chair/scuttle!
How does the AGA burn him Snow if he's in the chair and his back is away from the AGA?
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I never said you did, i said you have to prove who moved him from the AGA to the chair where the police found him. Anyone can make any claim, proving it is another thing. Different experts have all given their idea's as well, it's not proof though.
A few of us think that Nevill lay against the Aga having been knocked out by Sheila before getting uo himself and ending up on the chair/scuttle.
We dont think anyone moved Nevill HB,he simply ended up on the chair/scuttle by his own steam.
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Exactly, even if you could prove it was the Aga, Bamber could have killed everyone earlier and STILL moved Nevill before leaving the house.
Depends how long the burns took to form Zoso.
We are waiting for the answer from Boyce/CT.
Bamber definately wouldn't have left Nevill lying against the Aga for hours before moving him and exiting the house.
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A few of us think that Nevill lay against the Aga having been knocked out by Sheila before getting uo himself and ending up on the chair/scuttle.
We dont think anyone moved Nevill HB,he simply ended up on the chair/scuttle by his own steam.
So he was shot 8 times and attacked in the kitchen.
Fell against the aga for hours.
Then got up, put his pyjama top on and fell onto the coal scuttle/chair.
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So he was shot 8 times and attacked in the kitchen.
Fell against the aga for hours.
Then got up, put his pyjama top on and fell onto the coal scuttle/chair.
Nevill was knocked out and fell against the Aga before regaining conciousness and being shot several times and beaten before slumping on the chair/scuttle where he received the final four head shots.
The only person to see Nevill lying against the Aga was Sheila,and she is dead,that is why it has taken so long to work out what made the marks.
Clear Adam?
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Nevill was knocked out and fell against the Aga before regaining conciousness and being shot several times and beaten before slumping on the chair/scuttle where he received the final four head shots.
The only person to see Nevill lying against the Aga was Sheila,and she is dead,that is why it has taken so long to work out what made the marks.
Clear Adam?
So he was shot 4 times and beaten in the kitchen.
He falls on a cold aga door.
He wakes up, puts his pyjama top on. Goes back downstairs and falls onto the coal scuttle without knocking it over.
Sheila is still alive and shoots him 4 more times.
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Depends how long the burns took to form Zoso.
We are waiting for the answer from Boyce/CT.
Bamber definately wouldn't have left Nevill lying against the Aga for hours before moving him and exiting the house.
How would you know? If not Bamber, then who? You just said you didn't say it was the police but you have hinted at it - who else could have moved him?
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How would you know? If not Bamber, then who? You just said you didn't say it was the police but you have hinted at it - who else could have moved him?
Himself Zoso!
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So he was shot 4 times and beaten in the kitchen.
He falls on a cold aga door.
He wakes up, puts his pyjama top on. Goes back downstairs and falls onto the coal scuttle without knocking it over.
Sheila is still alive and shoots him 4 more times.
Nevill was knocked out and fell against the Aga before he received any gun shot wounds Adam.
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Nevill was knocked out and fell against the Aga before regaining conciousness and being shot several times and beaten before slumping on the chair/scuttle where he received the final four head shots.
The only person to see Nevill lying against the Aga was Sheila,and she is dead,that is why it has taken so long to work out what made the marks.
Clear Adam?
Nothing wrong with having a theory Snow, the CCRC don't work on idea's and theories though Snow. they work on the basis of evidence submitted and it would have a ’real possibility’ that an appeal court would quash the conviction, otherwise it just gets binned.
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Nevill was knocked out and fell against the Aga before he received any gun shot wounds Adam.
Oh, it gets better, so he was knocked out, burned on the AGA, went upstairs and got shot four times, came down stairs and got shot again?
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Its the handles that got hot Adam,maybe they are made of different matal than the doors and conduct heat better?
No! They are not!
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Depends how long the burns took to form Zoso.
We are waiting for the answer from Boyce/CT.
Bamber definately wouldn't have left Nevill lying against the Aga for hours before moving him and exiting the house.
They'd take a very long time on a semi warm appliance. No need for it to be hotter than that overnight in summer.
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No! They are not!
I always thought the hottest part of the AGA was at the top of the oven Jane? Imagine inventing a cooker that burns you evertime you open the frigging door?
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Nevill was knocked out and fell against the Aga before he received any gun shot wounds Adam.
So a fully fit Nevill fought Sheila and got knocked out.
Regained conciousness, went upstairs, put his pyjama top on, got shot 8 times, then fell head first into the coal scuttle & did not knock it over.
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Oh, it gets better, so he was knocked out, burned on the AGA, went upstairs and got shot four times, came down stairs and got shot again?
Its not only the scenario to incorporate the Aga marks though HB,as I have pointed out the CCRC will have to explain why JB didn't use all the information about the killings over the years to his advantage if he's guilty ie.the police moving Nevill and the Bible.
You have to consider the whole picture of what Bambers actions have been over the last 38 years,ie,wasting time paying experts to prove that the rifle barrel made the marks to Nevills back when he knew full well it was the Aga.
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Oh, it gets better, so he was knocked out, burned on the AGA, went upstairs and got shot four times, came down stairs and got shot again?
Yes,thats it HB.
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I always thought the hottest part of the AGA was at the top of the oven Jane? Imagine inventing a cooker that burns you evertime you open the frigging door?
It certainly is HB! I left a casserole in the bottom oven for around 7 hours. It came out beautifully cooked. I could manage to take it out without oven gloves.
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They'd take a very long time on a semi warm appliance. No need for it to be hotter than that overnight in summer.
Thanks Jane,thats what we wanted to hear,slow burns.Thanks.
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Thanks Jane,thats what we wanted to hear,slow burns.Thanks.
That's the point, Snow. It didn't burn. On an appliance,running at full heat. It was still possible for me to open the door and remove the contents from the oven with unprotected hands.
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Yes,thats it HB.
So she overpowered Neville and knocked him out before he was injured or shot then? She then leaves him knocked out, lets him regain Consciousness and then shoots him after coming round?
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That's the point, Snow. It didn't burn. On an appliance,running at full heat. It was still possible for me to open the door and remove the contents from the oven with unprotected hands.
But it only took a minute to remove the contents Jane,try holding the handle tightly for half an hour or so.
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So she overpowered Neville and knocked him out before he was injured or shot then? She then leaves him knocked out, lets him regain Consciousness and then shoots him after coming round?
Yes,thats it HB,except I am not quite sure what you mean by overpowered Nevill?
This was the very start of things,Sheila and Nevill may have ended up arguing before she flew into a rage and lashed out unexpectedly at Nevill before he could defend himself,no overpowering as such!
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But it only took a minute to remove the contents Jane,try holding the handle tightly for half an hour or so.
I'm sure the CCRC commissioners are trying it as we post ::)
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I'm sure the CCRC commissioners are trying it as we post ::)
Yes,joking appart Cutie,I am sure they are.
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I hear what your saying Jane,but it simply doesn't stand up.
There were very few sources of heat at the WHF,so JB or anyone else mentioning the Aga as a possible source of the burne to Nevill would have caused no suspicion whatsoever, ZERO! Not in 1985 nor any time since,so why o why would Bamber keep quiet about something that could work in his favour ie,that the police moved Nevill? Ridiculous.
Its the same as the Bible,if guilty he smearsd it with bloody fingerprints,left a note in it and opened it at a specific place,yet when his defence team were lied to and told that the Bible had been destroyed before the trial JB made no fuss about this.Doesn't logic tell us that JB had no idea of the importance of the Bible and didn't make a fuss about its alleged destruction?
Truthfully,in all likelyhood if the Bible and its evidence had been given to the defence instead of being hidden away it would have had a dramatic effect on the outcome at trial.
So the bottom line for me is,if the Aga burns are accepted by the CCRC Bamber is innocent whether the police moved Nevill or not.
Let me explain,if Nevill lay against the Aga unconcious for several minutes or hours then got up and was shot to death on the chair/scuttle this points to an innocent Bamber because obviously JB would not waste time waiting hours for the marks to form.He would have killed everyone as quick as possible and fled the scene.Only Sheila fits into this scenario as she was in the house all night.
Now,if JB killed Nevill and left him against the Aga and fled,this means that the police moved Nevill after entry, and that takes us back to the argument of keeping quiet about the source of the marks for 37 years and the fact that the police must have moved Nevill.,both facts that JB must have been aware of all these years,yet like the Bible did not use the knowledge to his advantage.Ridiculous,as I say.
Now I know that very few members give the marks much importance,but if they are accepted I think the prosecution case against JB is severely weakened.The marks are bad,bad news that only point to a guilty Sheila,they scream out that Bamber is innocent.
So it doesn't really matter if the police moved Bamber or not,nor who's scanario is nearest to the truth,if the Aga made the marks Bamber must logically be innocent,and I think a re-trial would convince a jury of this.
As fer users burning their neck on an Aga Jane,I would imagine this happens fairly regularly amongst those who take a bucket and snuggle up to them! ^-^
You seem oblivious that both sides agree on certain facts, as testified at trial, and that your scenarios do not fit with these facts.
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Yes,thats it HB,except I am not quite sure what you mean by overpowered Nevill?
This was the very start of things,Sheila and Nevill may have ended up arguing before she flew into a rage and lashed out unexpectedly at Nevill before he could defend himself,no overpowering as such!
Oh right my mistake, she just gave him one or two and she took no blows herself, knocked him out, he then burnt his back on the AGA while he was knocked out cold, came around, he then went upstairs and she shot him four times, he ran down stairs and she shot him four times again and he landed with his head in the Coal scuttle? Is this your theory Snow, or is it Boyce's and the CT's as well, because you say you and a few others?
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You seem oblivious that both sides agree on certain facts, as testified at trial, and that your scenarios do not fit with these facts.
Can you expand a little on that Cutie?
Do not fit with the facts?
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Oh right my mistake, she just gave him one or two and she took no blows herself, knocked him out, he then burnt his back on the AGA while he was knocked out cold, came around, he then went upstairs and she shot him four times, he ran down stairs and she shot him four times again and he landed with his head in the Coal scuttle? Is this your theory Snow, or is it Boyce's and the CT's as well, because you say you and a few others?
No,this theory has nothing to do with Boyce or the CT HB,they argue that the police moved Nevill from the Aga upon entry and proped him up on the chair/scuttle.
The others I reffer to are Rob and Roch,although Rob thinks Nevill was toppled to the floor from behind the kitchen door when the police entered and they duly proped him up on the chair scuttle.I tend to disagree with this because of the position needed to inflict the final head shots and because of the blood trails. But it is quite possible and would explain the precarious position of Nevill.
Cutie seems to be the only other member who thinks Nevill slumped onto the chair/scuttle on his own accord,but obviously thinks the rest of the scenario comes from fantasy land.
So,yes this is bacically a scenario made up by Rob,Roch and myself,whether any other members give it any credence I do not know HB,but it has nothing to do with Boyce or the CT,indeed they have not released a detailed scenario involving the Aga burns as far as I know.They are simply concentrating on the police changing the crime scene by allegedly moving Nevill as far as I can tell,this seems to be the route they are going down.
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The pathologist said Nevill's found position (as per soc images) was consistent with rm. At what point do you believe Nevill was lying against the Aga?
Right from the kick off Cutie,when he regained conciousness he made the phone call/s before his mouth was injured.Then headed upstairs to face a hail of bullets that sent him back to the kitchen.
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I always thought the hottest part of the AGA was at the top of the oven Jane? Imagine inventing a cooker that burns you evertime you open the frigging door?
Yes, but only if you lay against it was several hours - which apparently also cures concussion - who would have thought!!
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After several months I am starting to piece together Snow's aga scenario -
Sheila wakes Nevill. But not June and the twins.
Nevill goes downstairs bare footed and topless.
Nevill and Sheila argue. Sheila picks up a rifle for shooting rabbits. Nevill does not instantly reclaim this.
Sheila catches Nevill by surprise with some head blows.
Nevill lays unconcious against a cold aga door for several hours.
Nevill wakes and decides not to go upstairs
He starts ringing Bamber's AM from the kitchen. He eventually answers & Nevill says 11 words before putting the phone down.
Nevill does not ring Chelmsford Police.
Nevill eventually goes upstairs and puts his pyjama top on.
Sheila is upstairs and still has the rifle. She shoots him 4 times from inches and feet away.
Sheila chases Nevill downstairs where they fight. Sheila overpowers Nevill & gives him 40+ wounds.
Nevill falls head first into the coal scuttle. He does not knock it over or sustain related head injuries from doing this.
Sheila shoots him 4 more times.
Nevill is now in the perfect position to have his back burnt. But this has already happened from laying against a cold aga door for several hours.
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No,this theory has nothing to do with Boyce or the CT HB,they argue that the police moved Nevill from the Aga upon entry and proped him up on the chair/scuttle.
The others I reffer to are Rob and Roch,although Rob thinks Nevill was toppled to the floor from behind the kitchen door when the police entered and they duly proped him up on the chair scuttle.I tend to disagree with this because of the position needed to inflict the final head shots and because of the blood trails. But it is quite possible and would explain the precarious position of Nevill.
Cutie seems to be the only other member who thinks Nevill slumped onto the chair/scuttle on his own accord,but obviously thinks the rest of the scenario comes from fantasy land.
So,yes this is bacically a scenario made up by Rob,Roch and myself,whether any other members give it any credence I do not know HB,but it has nothing to do with Boyce or the CT,indeed they have not released a detailed scenario involving the Aga burns as far as I know.They are simply concentrating on the police changing the crime scene by allegedly moving Nevill as far as I can tell,this seems to be the route they are going down.
Thanks Snow, I'm more inclined to think they were inflicted now and i know i mentioned the poker before, but iv'e since found out that there was a poker alongside the AGA as well as in the cupboard, makes sense really to have the poker on hand at the side of a burner?
In the Dickerson report it states, there was also a Poker alongside of the AGA in the Kitchen shown in Potogragh 12?
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No,this theory has nothing to do with Boyce or the CT HB,they argue that the police moved Nevill from the Aga upon entry and proped him up on the chair/scuttle.
The others I reffer to are Rob and Roch,although Rob thinks Nevill was toppled to the floor from behind the kitchen door when the police entered and they duly proped him up on the chair scuttle.I tend to disagree with this because of the position needed to inflict the final head shots and because of the blood trails. But it is quite possible and would explain the precarious position of Nevill.
Cutie seems to be the only other member who thinks Nevill slumped onto the chair/scuttle on his own accord,but obviously thinks the rest of the scenario comes from fantasy land.
So,yes this is bacically a scenario made up by Rob,Roch and myself,whether any other members give it any credence I do not know HB,but it has nothing to do with Boyce or the CT,indeed they have not released a detailed scenario involving the Aga burns as far as I know.They are simply concentrating on the police changing the crime scene by allegedly moving Nevill as far as I can tell,this seems to be the route they are going down.
There is no way he was 'toppled'.
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There is no way he was 'toppled'.
Then he must have toppled himself.
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No,this theory has nothing to do with Boyce or the CT HB,they argue that the police moved Nevill from the Aga upon entry and proped him up on the chair/scuttle.
Both pathologists agree Nevill's found position, as depicted in soc images. was consistent with rm. Had he been lying along the Aga with the police moving him this would not be so.
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No,this theory has nothing to do with Boyce or the CT HB,they argue that the police moved Nevill from the Aga upon entry and proped him up on the chair/scuttle.
The others I reffer to are Rob and Roch,although Rob thinks Nevill was toppled to the floor from behind the kitchen door when the police entered and they duly proped him up on the chair scuttle.I tend to disagree with this because of the position needed to inflict the final head shots and because of the blood trails. But it is quite possible and would explain the precarious position of Nevill.
Cutie seems to be the only other member who thinks Nevill slumped onto the chair/scuttle on his own accord,but obviously thinks the rest of the scenario comes from fantasy land.
So,yes this is bacically a scenario made up by Rob,Roch and myself,whether any other members give it any credence I do not know HB,but it has nothing to do with Boyce or the CT,indeed they have not released a detailed scenario involving the Aga burns as far as I know.They are simply concentrating on the police changing the crime scene by allegedly moving Nevill as far as I can tell,this seems to be the route they are going down.
The average height of a UK man is 5' 9". Nevill at 6' 4" was considerably taller than average. If you consider the photo of Nevill and June with their respective dogs at their feet you will also appreciate he had very long legs. So no I do not think it suprising that a man of his statue fell across the chair as depicted in soc images. As far as I am aware the prosecution case against Bamber does not involve him re-staging Nevill.
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The average height of a UK man is 5' 9". Nevill at 6' 4" was considerably taller than average. If you consider the photo of Nevill and June with their respective dogs at their feet you will also appreciate he had very long legs. So no I do not think it suprising that a man of his statue fell across the chair as depicted in soc images. As far as I am aware the prosecution case against Bamber does not involve him re-staging Nevill.
He doesn't fall across the chair though does he? He is literally perched on the chair ( turned on its side ) in a up right slouching position with his face literally planted in the coal scuttle
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He doesn't fall across the chair though does he? He is literally perched on the chair ( turned on its side ) in a up right slouching position with his face literally planted in the coal scuttle
What's remarkable about it?
Neither the police, prosecution or defence have ever contested Nevill's found position.
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What's remarkable about it?
Neither the police, prosecution or defence have ever contested Nevill's found position.
I don't recall me saying it was remarkable?
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Both pathologists agree Nevill's found position, as depicted in soc images. was consistent with rm. Had he been lying along the Aga with the police moving him this would not be so.
Your slipping Cutes,Nevill was not dead when he was lying against the Aga,so no rigor setting in!
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Yes, but only if you lay against it was several hours - which apparently also cures concussion - who would have thought!!
Truth is often stranger than fiction Zoso.
The Aga burns may have been a twist of fate which may finally free Bamber.
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The average height of a UK man is 5' 9". Nevill at 6' 4" was considerably taller than average. If you consider the photo of Nevill and June with their respective dogs at their feet you will also appreciate he had very long legs. So no I do not think it suprising that a man of his statue fell across the chair as depicted in soc images. As far as I am aware the prosecution case against Bamber does not involve him re-staging Nevill.
Cutie,for heavens sake,how many times do I have to tell you that I am with you on this.
NEVILL SLUMPED ONTO THE CHAIR/SCUTTLE BY HIMSELF!
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Truth is often stranger than fiction Zoso.
The Aga burns may have been a twist of fate which may finally free Bamber.
There's no evidence the marks were even burns let alone caused by the Aga.
I guarantee you 100% this will go nowhere with the CCRC. But when the CCRC rightly throw it out you and others here will be up in arms 'The CCRC are corrupt etc, etc.' :'(
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There's no evidence the marks were even burns let alone caused by the Aga.
I guarantee you 100% this will go nowhere with the CCRC. But when the CCRC rightly throw it out you and others here will be up in arms 'The CCRC are corrupt etc, etc.' :'(
I doubt I will make a song and dance if their thrown out Cutie,but no matter what if the images taken from the Aga are identically spaced as those on Nevills back I will always believe the Aga made the marks no matter what the CCRC or anyone else concludes.
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The prosecution case against Bamber. No mention of staging Nevill or burning his back. Those who wish to support Bamber need to tackle the prosecution case.
151. The prosecution relied upon the following areas of evidence:
i) The appellant's expressed dislike of his family;
ii) His speaking of his plans to kill his family and thereafter his confessions to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford;
iii) The finding of his mother's bicycle at Goldhanger;
iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to explain these findings;
v) Because on the facts of the case it could only have been the appellant or Sheila Caffell who carried out the killings, the factors below proved they were not the responsibility of the appellant's sister:
a) Although seriously mentally ill, there had been no indication of any deterioration in her mental health in the days before the killings. Neither had she expressed any recent suicidal thoughts and the expert evidence was that she would not have harmed her children or her father;
b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;
c) She would not have been able physically to have overcome her father (who was fit, strong and 6' 4" tall) during the struggle which undoubtedly took place before his death in the kitchen;
d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;
e) Hand swabs from her body did not reveal the levels of lead to be expected in somebody who must have re-loaded the magazine of the gun on at least two occasions; and
f) Her clothing was relatively clean and she was not injured in the way that might be expected of somebody involved in a struggle. Her long fingernails were still intact and undamaged.
vi) The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself. The following aspects of the evidence established it was still in place on the gun when the appellant's sister was murdered:
a) The blood grouping analysis proved (on the particular facts of the case) that Sheila Caffell's blood was inside the moderator; and
b) Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;
d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and
e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.
viii) He stood to inherit considerable sums of money.
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I doubt I will make a song and dance if their thrown out Cutie,but no matter what if the images taken from the Aga are identically spaced as those on Nevills back I will always believe the Aga made the marks no matter what the CCRC or anyone else concludes.
You're entitled to believe what you want but I can assure you the CCRC will not be entertaining any submissions that do not meet the criteria. Claims that Nevill sustained burns from lying by the Aga and/or the police moved him are complete non-starters.
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After several months I am starting to piece together Snow's aga scenario -
Sheila wakes Nevill. But not June and the twins.
Nevill goes downstairs bare footed and topless.
Nevill and Sheila argue. Sheila picks up a rifle for shooting rabbits. Nevill does not instantly reclaim this.
Sheila catches Nevill by surprise with some head blows.
Nevill lays unconcious against a cold aga door for several hours.
Nevill wakes and decides not to go upstairs
He starts ringing Bamber's AM from the kitchen. He eventually answers & Nevill says 11 words before putting the phone down.
Nevill does not ring Chelmsford Police.
Nevill eventually goes upstairs and puts his pyjama top on.
Sheila is upstairs and still has the rifle. She shoots him 4 times from inches and feet away.
Sheila chases Nevill downstairs where they fight. Sheila overpowers Nevill & gives him 40+ wounds.
Nevill falls head first into the coal scuttle. He does not knock it over or sustain related head injuries from doing this.
Sheila shoots him 4 more times.
Nevill is now in the perfect position to have his back burnt. But this has already happened from laying against a cold aga door for several hours.
Hopefully Snow confirms if this scenario is correct.
Otherwise please correct me and I will amend.
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Hopefully Snow confirms if this scenario is correct.
Otherwise please correct me and I will amend.
Obviously its the gist of it Adam but with bits twisted around for sarcasm as you well know.
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What's remarkable about it?
Neither the police, prosecution or defence have ever contested Nevill's found position.
Until now. Just because it has never been contested does not make it the truth. I am just a poster on a website and I contest it.
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Until now. Just because it has never been contested does not make it the truth. I am just a poster on a website and I contest it.
Well you are not the only one Bubo,most members think Nevills body was staged.
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Until now. Just because it has never been contested does not make it the truth. I am just a poster on a website and I contest it.
Its up to you how you waste your time.
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Obviously its the gist of it Adam but with bits twisted around for sarcasm as you well know.
Sarcasm Snow?
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Sarcasm Snow?
Cold Aga door Adam? You are the master or wry sarcasm.
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Thanks Snow, I'm more inclined to think they were inflicted now and i know i mentioned the poker before, but iv'e since found out that there was a poker alongside the AGA as well as in the cupboard, makes sense really to have the poker on hand at the side of a burner?
In the Dickerson report it states, there was also a Poker alongside of the AGA in the Kitchen shown in Potogragh 12?
Yes,there is no doubt that everyone was stumped by the burns to Nevills neck back at the time of the shootings and were quite rightly looking at all items which could have possibly made them,but I believe we finally have the answer HB.
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Yes,there is no doubt that everyone was stumped by the burns to Nevills neck back at the time of the shootings and were quite rightly looking at all items which could have possibly made them,but I believe we finally have the answer HB.
Your thread is called 'The Beauty of Three Marks' - Boyce's pig skin has two.
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Cold Aga door Adam? You are the master or wry sarcasm.
Oven doors are made to be hot. Inside.
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Cold Aga door Adam? You are the master or wry sarcasm.
It's not boing to be boiling it's arse off in the early hours of the morning, is it?
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Cold Aga door Adam? You are the master or wry sarcasm.
Exactly why are you taking the word of someone who's already had one theory chucked out? I suggested, when you first started talking AGAs, that you didn't have to take my word, all you needed to do was fine someone who owned one and position yourself in front of it in the same way as you'd have us believe NB was laid and you'd have your answer without the need to rely on Boyce.
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It's not boing to be boiling it's arse off in the early hours of the morning, is it?
You do not nor cannot know whether the boiler had been filled to produce plenty of extra hot water for the additional guests the next morning or if because of the late showering by NB and the twins being bathed left the hot tank depleted. Nor can you know what had been burned by the police while NB was still by the Aga.
I am sure Boyce will have done a series of tests at different temperatures at the very least so as not to face ridicule if he only did one. Your simplistic approach and denigration of Boyce is dare I say it pathetic. I recently pointed out this to Mystic Jane who was claiming Boyce had manipulated his results to get the answer he wanted
I think there is more info on the possible Aga burns than has been divulged. It would make sense to get some idea of how long it took to get burns that were approximately the same size and shape as NB's. So one of two possible ways to do this would be a series of tests at say one hour intervals. the second would be to remove the pigskin momentarily at internals and take a picture. If NB's burns took less than four hours JB must be innocent since he could not have been there when NB came in contact with the Aga.
Just to do one test would lay Boyce open to questions he could not answer. like how long does this process take.If he could not answer he would look a fool because it would be argued that the burns could have taken 6 hours say which would still mean JB could be Liable and guilty.
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Exactly why are you taking the word of someone who's already had one theory chucked out? I suggested, when you first started talking AGAs, that you didn't have to take my word, all you needed to do was fine someone who owned one and position yourself in front of it in the same way as you'd have us believe NB was laid and you'd have your answer without the need to rely on Boyce.
A rubbish post and a rubbish suggestion. You have criticised Boyce before. Are you now claiming you are an Aga burns expert as well as a mind reader?
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Exactly why are you taking the word of someone who's already had one theory chucked out? I suggested, when you first started talking AGAs, that you didn't have to take my word, all you needed to do was fine someone who owned one and position yourself in front of it in the same way as you'd have us believe NB was laid and you'd have your answer without the need to rely on Boyce.
The scientist who peer reviewed said that more tests were needed to confirm. The CT ran out of time and money.
Boyce is someone who is trying to find more pieces of the jigsaw. You on the other hand want such pieces to remain hidden.
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Exactly why are you taking the word of someone who's already had one theory chucked out? I suggested, when you first started talking AGAs, that you didn't have to take my word, all you needed to do was fine someone who owned one and position yourself in front of it in the same way as you'd have us believe NB was laid and you'd have your answer without the need to rely on Boyce.
Yes thats a good point Jane,you have made me think of something now.
You could do a make shift test by placing a substance on the parts of the handles pointed out by Boyce and lie against it as you say,ie,felt pen or water paint to get an image on your neck,then have someone hold a tape measure next to the marks and take a photo ,then print it on here.
Excelent idea Jane,well done.
Problem is,I dont know a soul with an Aga,and of course it would have to be the same model.
Does yours look like the same model Jane? If so,might I be as bold as ask you to carry out the experiment?
Anyway,excelent idea Jane,a mirror image in ink or paint.Youv'e got me excited now!
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The scientist who peer reviewed said that more tests were needed to confirm. The CT ran out of time and money.
Boyce is someone who is trying to find more pieces of the jigsaw. You on the other hand want such pieces to remain hidden.
And top up his pension.
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And top up his pension.
As was Annabelle Darlow or whatever her name is, when she was happy to stop documents and images of sound moderators from being released to the defence. I'm sure public are grateful.
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The scientist who peer reviewed said that more tests were needed to confirm. The CT ran out of time and money.
Boyce is someone who is trying to find more pieces of the jigsaw. You on the other hand want such pieces to remain hidden.
Not hidden, just not crushed into the wrong space.
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And top up his pension.
Can't fault him, make any penny you can in this day and age !
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Anyway,I think Jane has come up with a brilliant idea ,telling people to lie against their Agas and get a mirror image in ink or paint on their neck.
Now supporters and guilters up and down the country can join in with Boyce and safely take an image from the Aga handles while the oven is cold,and then get someone to hold a tape measure or ruler along side it and take a photo.
Yes,thanks to Jane's suggestion many readers of the forum will be checking the results of their experiments as we speak,looking at the photos in the archive here and comparing the measurements and shape of the marks.
Great idea,hopefully we will see some of the results posted here and elsewhere on the web.
Jane will probably be posting her results very soon.
Thanks again for the suggestion Jane,truly brilliant idea,why didn't anyone think of this before?
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It's not boing to be boiling it's arse off in the early hours of the morning, is it?
Doesn't need to be Zoso,very slow burns,probably forming sometime between 11.00-3.00.
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Doesn't need to be Zoso,very slow burns,probably forming sometime between 11.00-3.00.
Good grief he was out for a long time Snow, he phoned Bamber at three, most cases usually are out for about 15 to 30 mins. If they out longer it can lead to Concussion and brain damage or coma?
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Good grief he was out for a long time Snow, he phoned Bamber at three, most cases usually are out for about 15 to 30 mins. If they out longer it can lead to Concussion and brain damage or coma?
I think Snow is referring to the Aga heat timing not the time NB was out for the count.
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I think Snow is referring to the Aga heat timing not the time NB was out for the count.
,very slow burns,probably forming sometime between 11.00-3.00.
Slow Burns ,very slow burns,probably forming sometime between 11.00-3.00.
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Good grief he was out for a long time Snow, he phoned Bamber at three, most cases usually are out for about 15 to 30 mins. If they out longer it can lead to Concussion and brain damage or coma?
Yep, this is what I have tried to indicate but it's falling on deaf ears.
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I think Snow is referring to the Aga heat timing not the time NB was out for the count.
The idea from this or was, that Neville was supposed to be unconciouss for a period leaned against the AGA, slow burning to make the marks. All three knobs producing the same heat at the same time to make the three marks. Snow now suggests this could have happened between the hours 11.00 till 3.00am.
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I think Snow is referring to the Aga heat timing not the time NB was out for the count.
No,I WAS referring to the time Nevill may have been unconcious Bubo,but its only guess work till we get confirmation of how long the burns took to form.
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No,I WAS referring to the time Nevill may have been unconcious Bubo,but its only guess work till we get confirmation of how long the burns took to form.
Thank you Snow.
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.....''The length of time that a person is knocked out for typically depends on the severity of the traumatic brain injury.According to Headway,if someone is unconscious for less than 15 minutes,their traumatic brain injury is considered mild.A loss of consciousness between 15 minutes and six hours is considered a moderate traumatic brain injury,and between six hours and 48 hours is severe traumatic brain injury.''
So you can be knocked out for any length of time really!
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.....''The length of time that a person is knocked out for typically depends on the severity of the traumatic brain injury.According to Headway,if someone is unconscious for less than 15 minutes,their traumatic brain injury is considered mild.A loss of consciousness between 15 minutes and six hours is considered a moderate traumatic brain injury,and between six hours and 48 hours is severe traumatic brain injury.''
So you can be knocked out for any length of time really!
I am afraid I now find your reasoning of 11.00pm to 03.00am faulty. If this were the case he would have phoned the police immediately he recovered and would have mentioned it to JB if he called him at 03.10, rather than talking about the gun in the first instance. There is also no evidence to support NB being shot in the bedroom apart from the staging of the shell casings which was part of the overall scene setting. Only hard and fast guilt supporters believe NB was shot in the bedroom.
Try this from CAL.
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I am afraid I now find your reasoning of 11.00pm to 03.00am faulty. If this were the case he would have phoned the police immediately he recovered and would have mentioned it to JB if he called him at 03.10, rather than talking about the gun in the first instance. There is also no evidence to support NB being shot in the bedroom apart from the staging of the shell casings which was part of the overall scene setting. Only hard and fast guilt supporters believe NB was shot in the bedroom.
Try this from CAL.
I'd say I was one of those and I don't believe he was shot in the bedroom.
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I am afraid I now find your reasoning of 11.00pm to 03.00am faulty. If this were the case he would have phoned the police immediately he recovered and would have mentioned it to JB if he called him at 03.10, rather than talking about the gun in the first instance. There is also no evidence to support NB being shot in the bedroom apart from the staging of the shell casings which was part of the overall scene setting. Only hard and fast guilt supporters believe NB was shot in the bedroom.
Try this from CAL.
Thanks Bubo,I may re-write a scenario just to make things clear.I didn't say that Nevill was shot in the bedroom,I believe he only made it to the top of the stairs or there about before being shot.
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Nevill and June received there first 5/4 shots in/by the bed.
Not surprising as Bamber entered the bedroom around 2am.
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Nevill and June received there first 5/4 shots in/by the bed.
Not surprising as Bamber entered the bedroom around 2am.
You've only said that six thousand times already
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Both managed to leave there beds and were found bare footed in there sleeping attire.
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Both managed to leave there beds and were found bare footed in there sleeping attire.
Yes,I suppose youv'e got a point there Adam.So in my scenario I will have Nevill getting out of bed and going down to the kitchen where he finds Sheila and things kick off.
Yes,we have to take his attire into account.
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Yes Nevill probably heard Sheila moving about the house when she went to soak in her knickers.
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Yep, this is what I have tried to indicate but it's falling on deaf ears.
Of course Nevill may have woken up with concussion and brain damage Zoso,but he died soon after anyway remember,so it would have made no difference.
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Of course Nevill may have woken up with concussion and brain damage Zoso,but he died soon after anyway remember,so it would have made no difference.
He couldn't have, he made a phone call to Bamber after being out cold for four hours and nursing three burn marks to his back and never mentioned anything to JB.
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Of course Nevill may have woken up with concussion and brain damage Zoso,but he died soon after anyway remember,so it would have made no difference.
So how would he have been coherent enough to be lucid when making a phone call?
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He couldn't have, he made a phone call to Bamber after being out cold for four hours and nursing three burn marks to his back and never mentioned anything to JB.
We dont know yet how long the burns took to form HB,but if they occurred before Nevill phoned JB at 3.10 we have roughly four hours or so to play with,about 11.00 until 3.00.Boyce will have carried out experiments to determine this,although,as Bubo has pointed out,Boyce is working on the assumption that Nevill was already dead while he lying against the Aga,and besides,how do you get a living person to lie against a hot Aga and be experimented on?
Anyway,we will just have to wait and see what Boyce has come up with.
As for the marks,they seemed to be deep third degree burns with the skin destroyed so Nevill would have felt no pain from them and been oblivious to their existence,besides,his attention would have focussed on his thumping sore head.
As for making the call to JB,we dont know the severity of the brain trauma caused by the blow to the head.Amnesia may not have been present,all he may have remembered was Sheila smashing the rifle over his head,hence'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun,youv'e got to help'. Thats obviously all he would have known at that stage and therefore slammed down the phone to rush upstairs and see just what Sheila had done.
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So how would he have been coherent enough to be lucid when making a phone call?
The brain is a complicated thing Jane,remember the soldier in 'Tumbledown'? He could still talk as they airlifted him from the battle scene.
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The first thing Nevill would do after waking is look for Sheila and check on June, Daniel & Nicholas.
He had been knocked out by Sheila holding a rifle.
He certainly wouldn't start ringing Bamber's AM. Then put his pyjama top on.
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Agree with Snow Nevill did not ring the police.
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Agree with Snow Nevill did not ring the police.
Just JB Adam? Thats good enough.
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Just JB Adam? Thats good enough.
Pity Nevill didn't leave the door open for him.
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The brain is a complicated thing Jane,remember the soldier in 'Tumbledown'? He could still talk as they airlifted him from the battle scene.
But clearly couldn't walk around, let alone climb stairs. He mentioned nothing to Bamber?? This has more holes than a Swiss cheese
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We dont know yet how long the burns took to form HB,but if they occurred before Nevill phoned JB at 3.10 we have roughly four hours or so to play with,about 11.00 until 3.00.Boyce will have carried out experiments to determine this,although,as Bubo has pointed out,Boyce is working on the assumption that Nevill was already dead while he lying against the Aga,and besides,how do you get a living person to lie against a hot Aga and be experimented on?
Anyway,we will just have to wait and see what Boyce has come up with.
As for the marks,they seemed to be deep third degree burns with the skin destroyed so Nevill would have felt no pain from them and been oblivious to their existence,besides,his attention would have focussed on his thumping sore head.
As for making the call to JB,we dont know the severity of the brain trauma caused by the blow to the head.Amnesia may not have been present,all he may have remembered was Sheila smashing the rifle over his head,hence'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun,youv'e got to help'. Thats obviously all he would have known at that stage and therefore slammed down the phone to rush upstairs and see just what Sheila had done.
I don't think they were deep, it was suggested hot enough to burn through Pyjama's and not burn them, but hot enough to superficially burn the skin? Knight thought they were Bruises and Rivlin put to Vanezis that they were almost certainly NOT burn marks, they show none of the features of burn marks, such as for example peeling of the skin margins, it was suggested by Vanezis that it was almost like a tattooing of the skin.
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But clearly couldn't walk around, let alone climb stairs. He mentioned nothing to Bamber?? This has more holes than a Swiss cheese
What could he have mentioned to Bamber Zoso?
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I don't think they were deep, it was suggested hot enough to burn through Pyjama's and not burn them, but hot enough to superficially burn the skin? Knight thought they were Bruises and Rivlin put to Vanezis that they were almost certainly NOT burn marks, they show none of the features of burn marks, such as for example peeling of the skin margins, it was suggested by Vanezis that it was almost like a tattooing of the skin.
It's rather Bizzare really, the Prosecution at trial said they were burn Marks and the defence argued that they wasn't, now they want to overturn his conviction and argue they are burn marks afterall caused by the AGA and want to blame the police for moving him or Sheila knocked him unconciouss for hours before killing him. Rivlin, "These marks are almost certainly not burn marks" "they show none of the features of burns"
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What could he have mentioned to Bamber Zoso?
Sheila's going crazy, she's just wacked me and knocked me out for hours and iv'e burnt my f...ing back ;D ;D ;D Now she's running around with a rifle.
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It's rather Bizzare really, the Prosecution at trial said they were burn Marks and the defence argued that they wasn't, now they want to overturn his conviction and argue they are burn marks afterall caused by the AGA and want to blame the police for moving him or Sheila knocked him unconciouss for hours before killing him. Rivlin, "These marks are almost certainly not burn marks" "they show none of the features of burns"
Let's imagine Knight was right. Where does that leave Vanezis? How can Vanezis not know that 'they show none of the features of burns'?
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Let's imagine Knight was right. Where does that leave Vanezis? How can Vanezis not know that 'they show none of the features of burns'?
Vanezis thought they were burn Marks in his opinion, Rivlin isn't a burns expert and knight conceded that unlike Vanezis he didn't see the body.
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I don't think they were deep, it was suggested hot enough to burn through Pyjama's and not burn them, but hot enough to superficially burn the skin? Knight thought they were Bruises and Rivlin put to Vanezis that they were almost certainly NOT burn marks, they show none of the features of burn marks, such as for example peeling of the skin margins, it was suggested by Vanezis that it was almost like a tattooing of the skin.
If they were bruises HB we are back to coincidences,ie,someone inflicted three bruises that mirror the image taken from the Aga,and bruises that happen to be slap bang in the same position on Nevills back were he to have layed down with his back against the oven.
I think you know that there is no getting away from the fact that the Aga did indeed make the marks HB.
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If they were bruises HB we are back to coincidences,ie,someone inflicted three bruises that mirror the image taken from the Aga,and bruises that happen to be slap bang in the same position on Nevills back were he to have layed down with his back against the oven.
I think you know that there is no getting away from the fact that the Aga did indeed make the marks HB.
Snow, I'm beginning to think you're doing a wind up!
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If they were bruises HB we are back to coincidences,ie,someone inflicted three bruises that mirror the image taken from the Aga,and bruises that happen to be slap bang in the same position on Nevills back were he to have layed down with his back against the oven.
I think you know that there is no getting away from the fact that the Aga did indeed make the marks HB.
It was the defence who thought and insisted they were bruises, Vanezis said in his opinion they were burns, theyv'e argued the toss they were Bruises and now admit they were wrong by arguing that they are Burns, so the prosecution was right afterall don't you think?
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It was the defence who thought and insisted they were bruises, Vanezis said in his opinion they were burns, theyv'e argued the toss they were Bruises and now admit they were wrong by arguing that they are Burns, so the prosecution was right afterall don't you think?
Bamber has always said they are burns.
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If they were bruises HB we are back to coincidences,ie,someone inflicted three bruises that mirror the image taken from the Aga,and bruises that happen to be slap bang in the same position on Nevills back were he to have layed down with his back against the oven.
I think you know that there is no getting away from the fact that the Aga did indeed make the marks HB.
It was the Defence suggestion that they was Bruises caused by Prodding.
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I don't think they were deep, it was suggested hot enough to burn through Pyjama's and not burn them, but hot enough to superficially burn the skin? Knight thought they were Bruises and Rivlin put to Vanezis that they were almost certainly NOT burn marks, they show none of the features of burn marks, such as for example peeling of the skin margins, it was suggested by Vanezis that it was almost like a tattooing of the skin.
Can you provide a source for who suggested this? Thanks. Further you are presupposing he was wearing the top when up against the Aga. There is a significant tear in his PJ top. This type of damage occurs when cloth is caught on a sharp object and both the weft and warp of the material fractures in a semi rectangular shape. It is therefore possible that his top was caught on something as part of a struggle say and to release himself he allowed it to be removed from his body to give himself greater freedom of movement.
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Snow, I'm beginning to think you're doing a wind up!
Not so Jane!
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Sheila's going crazy, she's just wacked me and knocked me out for hours and iv'e burnt my f...ing back ;D ;D ;D Now she's running around with a rifle.
None of which comes under the heading of "Phone a friend". It's phone the emergency services PDQ!!!!
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Can you provide a source for who suggested this? Thanks. Further you are presupposing he was wearing the top when up against the Aga. There is a significant tear in his PJ top. This type of damage occurs when cloth is caught on a sharp object and both the weft and warp of the material fractures in a semi rectangular shape. It is therefore possible that his top was caught on something as part of a struggle say and to release himself he allowed it to be removed from his body to give himself greater freedom of movement.
I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, your suggesting that he was up against the AGA. Yes i know there was a tear in the PJ's about 2 inch from the marks.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44913;image
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Can you provide a source for who suggested this? Thanks. Further you are presupposing he was wearing the top when up against the Aga. There is a significant tear in his PJ top. This type of damage occurs when cloth is caught on a sharp object and both the weft and warp of the material fractures in a semi rectangular shape. It is therefore possible that his top was caught on something as part of a struggle say and to release himself he allowed it to be removed from his body to give himself greater freedom of movement.
Or a tear big enough to insert a hot object if the PJ's was to oneside?
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It was the Defence suggestion that they was Bruises caused by Prodding.
I think if you look at the photo of the burn marks in the archive you will see that they are not bruises caused by prodding HB,or if they are,they have been made by two seperate items ie,the top mark is larger and more oval than the other two.
Surely if someone was prodding Nevill the marks would all be uniform,yet they are not.
Now lying against the Aga on the other hand,that is a different matter all together,obviously the main handle is indeed going to make a bigger more oval mark than the other two smaller points of contact.
Dont you agree HB?
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I think if you look at the photo of the burn marks in the archive you will see that they are not bruises caused by proding HB,or if they are,they have been made by two seperate items ie,the top mark is larger and more oval than the other two.
Surely if someone was proding Nevill the marks would all be uniform,yet they are not.
Now lying against the Aga on the other hand,that is a different matter all together,obviously the main handle is indeed going to make a bigger more oval mark than the other two smaller points of contact.
Dont you agree HB?
So your more experienced than Knight and Rivlin then, they seen quite a few photo's of the marks, more than the one your looking at and he thinks they are Bruises. The defence argued that they was bruises at trial.
I would say, Vanezis was right all all along wouldn't you agree, in his opinion they were burns, Vanezis was spot on, because this guy Boyce and Bamber now wants the CCRC to look into the marks as Burns.
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So your more experienced than Knight and Rivlin then, they seen quite a few photo's of the marks, more than the one your looking at and he thinks they are Bruises. The defence argued that they was bruises at trial.
I would say, Vanezis was right all all along wouldn't you agree, in his opinion they were burns, Vanezis was spot on, because this guy Boyce and Bamber now wants the CCRC to look into the marks as Burns.
Yes,of course Vanezis was right about them being burns HB,but like everyone else involved,including JB,he just couldn't work out what made them.
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Yes,of course Vanezis was right about them being burns HB,but like everyone else involved,including JB,he just couldn't work out what made them.
Bamber made the burns.
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Yes,of course Vanezis was right about them being burns HB,but like everyone else involved,including JB,he just couldn't work out what made them.
Well done you, you’ve solved it for him. You must write and tell him your findings.
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So your more experienced than Knight and Rivlin then, they seen quite a few photo's of the marks, more than the one your looking at and he thinks they are Bruises. The defence argued that they was bruises at trial.
I would say, Vanezis was right all all along wouldn't you agree, in his opinion they were burns, Vanezis was spot on, because this guy Boyce and Bamber now wants the CCRC to look into the marks as Burns.
And again that takes us back to why JB wasted many years arguing that they were either bruises or were made by the rifle if he knew the Aga made them HB? As you say he even paid experts in America hoping for some sort of breakthrough.
In my eyes it can only mean one thing HB,Bamber simply did not know what made the marks to Nevills back because he simply wasn't in the WHF on the night of the murders to witness Nevill lying against the Aga.Therefore it follows that he is innocent.
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And again that takes us back to why JB wasted many years arguing that they were either bruises or were made by the rifle if he knew the Aga made them HB? As you say he even paid experts in America hoping for some sort of breakthrough.
In my eyes it can only mean one thing HB,Bamber simply did not know what made the marks to Nevills back because he simply wasn't in the WHF on the night of the murders to witness Nevill lying against the Aga.Therefore it follows that he is innocent.
Yes, like I say write to him and tell him how you’ve solved it for him.
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And again that takes us back to why JB wasted many years arguing that they were either bruises or were made by the rifle if he knew the Aga made them HB? As you say he even paid experts in America hoping for some sort of breakthrough.
In my eyes it can only mean one thing HB,Bamber simply did not know what made the marks to Nevills back because he simply wasn't in the WHF on the night of the murders to witness Nevill lying against the Aga.Therefore it follows that he is innocent.
Can we have your Sheila Scenario in full Snow?
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Well done you, you’ve solved it for him. You must write and tell him your findings.
Nothing to do with me HB.
I believe Bamber himself suggested the Aga as a possible source of the burns and that is when the CT and Boyce investigated.I am not sure who exactly worked out that the handles were responsible for the burns,but I.am sure that all will be revieled in due course HB.
As for Vanezis,I would imagine that he has already heard about the Aga evidence.
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Can we have your Sheila Scenario in full Snow?
Yes,of course HB,maybe tomorrow,time allowing.
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Yes,of course HB,maybe tomorrow,time allowing.
Doesn't matter if you haven’t got time Snow, I’m away for a while anyway.
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Doesn't matter if you haven’t got time Snow, I’m away for a while anyway.
No problem HB.
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I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, your suggesting that he was up against the AGA. Yes i know there was a tear in the PJ's about 2 inch from the marks.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44913;image
Thanks for that. PV thought they were burns because he knew they were burns. From what I have seen and found together with the wounds issue raised by Roch and BR it is clear he was part of the cover-up but not part of the framing
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Thanks for that. PV thought they were burns because he knew they were burns. From what I have seen and found together with the wounds issue raised by Roch and BR it is clear he was part of the cover-up but not part of the framing
He must have been part of the framing Bubo.
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He must have been part of the framing Bubo.
He knew JB was being framed but if you study his writings and court evidence he did not say or write anything which was untrue and he even tried to show he was sympathetic towards JB by his comments about the scene staging and how SC would have to have been drugged to let JB kill her. His wording and phraseology was always very carefully constructed.
He did not act in anyway in constructing evidence physical or written which was used to convict JB. He played no part in the silencer ruse. He did not forge witness statements or 'turn' JM and get her freedom from prosecution for her misdeeds. He played no part in the Aga surround scratches or the window position ruse. He is culpable for concealing a crime and allowing a miscarriage of justice.
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Thanks for that. PV thought they were burns because he knew they were burns. From what I have seen and found together with the wounds issue raised by Roch and BR it is clear he was part of the cover-up but not part of the framing
If the police moved Nevill after entry,would they have known all along that the Aga made the burns Bubo? And possibly Vanezis too?
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If the police moved Nevill after entry,would they have known all along that the Aga made the burns Bubo? And possibly Vanezis too?
Of course. I would like to think that my suggestion made in 2015 to the journalist and my efforts on this forum played some part in the decision to examine the burns issue scientifically.
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He knew JB was being framed but if you study his writings and court evidence he did not say or write anything which was untrue and he even tried to show he was sympathetic towards JB by his comments about the scene staging and how SC would have to have been drugged to let JB kill her. His wording and phraseology was always very carefully constructed.
He did not act in anyway in constructing evidence physical or written which was used to convict JB. He played no part in the silencer ruse. He did not forge witness statements or 'turn' JM and get her freedom from prosecution for her misdeeds. He played no part in the Aga surround scratches or the window position ruse. He is culpable for concealing a crime and allowing a miscarriage of justice.
He lied about Sheila's wounds. He omitted mention of June's wounds. His testimony about Sheila's wrist and hand is disgraceful. He was answering questions from a judge who had already been involved in two MOJ's. Vanezis' career took off after the Bamber trial.
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He lied about Sheila's wounds. He omitted mention of June's wounds. His testimony about Sheila's wrist and hand is disgraceful. He was answering questions from a judge who had already been involved in two MOJ's. Vanezis' career took off after the Bamber trial.
He is guilty of omission. The judge and prosecutor phrased their questions so that he could answer without perjuring himself. His autopsy is crap and I have found errors beyond the fact that he concealed the extent of SC's and June's injuries.
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Of course. I would like to think that my suggestion made in 2015 to the journalist and my efforts on this forum played some part in the decision to examine the burns issue scientifically.
Quite possibly Bubo,quite possible that you were the origin of the idea.
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He is guilty of omission. The judge and prosecutor phrased their questions so that he could answer without perjuring himself. His autopsy is crap and I have found errors beyond the fact that he concealed the extent of SC's and June's injuries.
I have proved that he used his autopsy report to conceal the bullet fired by the TFG. It is contained within my posts and will revisit this aspect if requested.
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What could he have mentioned to Bamber Zoso?
If your assertion is that the first thing he does after waking up due to hours of unconsciousness - then I suspect he'd have mentioned 'that'. Personally, I think he'd be more inclined to go looking for Sheila to see what she might have done while he was 'out'. The you have a problem of when he called Bamber, so I guess you have to make him do that first - what he allegedly says. doesn't make sense.
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If they were bruises HB we are back to coincidences,ie,someone inflicted three bruises that mirror the image taken from the Aga,and bruises that happen to be slap bang in the same position on Nevills back were he to have layed down with his back against the oven.
I think you know that there is no getting away from the fact that the Aga did indeed make the marks HB.
But they don't 'mirror' anything, the pig skin has just two burn marks and I notice that the guy who back he is using to demonstrate, has his head off the floor. Would love to know how that would work for an unconscious Nevill and how he managed to keep his back solidly against the AGA door for hours?
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If your assertion is that the first thing he does after waking up due to hours of unconsciousness - then I suspect he'd have mentioned 'that'. Personally, I think he'd be more inclined to go looking for Sheila to see what she might have done while he was 'out'. The you have a problem of when he called Bamber, so I guess you have to make him do that first - what he allegedly says. doesn't make sense.
Nevill laying on the cold aga door prior to the police putting his pyjama top on and moving him for no reason is more likely.
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He is guilty of omission. The judge and prosecutor phrased their questions so that he could answer without perjuring himself. His autopsy is crap and I have found errors beyond the fact that he concealed the extent of SC's and June's injuries.
You're forgetting he was cross-examined by Rivlin supported by the defence pathologist.
Of course you have ::) You're overlooking that Vanezis testimony was fact checked by Knight so basically you're saying two pathologists were crap and you know more ::)
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I have proved that he used his autopsy report to conceal the bullet fired by the TFG. It is contained within my posts and will revisit this aspect if requested.
Only to your delusional self.
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He lied about Sheila's wounds. He omitted mention of June's wounds. His testimony about Sheila's wrist and hand is disgraceful. He was answering questions from a judge who had already been involved in two MOJ's. Vanezis' career took off after the Bamber trial.
You seem to overlook the fact the defence pathologist heard the testimony and can raise anything with the defence for cross-examination.
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Yes,of course Vanezis was right about them being burns HB,but like everyone else involved,including JB,he just couldn't work out what made them.
There's no evidence they were even sustained on 7th Aug. You're forgetting marks on skin take on a completely difference appearance post death.
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You're forgetting he was cross-examined by Rivlin supported by the defence pathologist.
Of course you have ::) You're overlooking that Vanezis testimony was fact checked by Knight so basically you're saying two pathologists were crap and you know more ::)
I am talking about documentation errors not his testimony.
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You're forgetting he was cross-examined by Rivlin supported by the defence pathologist.
Of course you have ::) You're overlooking that Vanezis testimony was fact checked by Knight so basically you're saying two pathologists were crap and you know more ::)
So the judge and prosecutor phrased their questions so he could answer without perjuring himself? Of whom are we speaking? Vanezis or RWB?
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But they don't 'mirror' anything, the pig skin has just two burn marks and I notice that the guy who back he is using to demonstrate, has his head off the floor. Would love to know how that would work for an unconscious Nevill and how he managed to keep his back solidly against the AGA door for hours?
It is possible that he was pinned in that position by the kitchen chairs and the table which were disturbed in a struggle, He fell between the furniture and the Aga and was trapped.
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You seem to overlook the fact the defence pathologist heard the testimony and can raise anything with the defence for cross-examination.
Post 15689
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11976.msg552429.html#msg552429
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So the judge and prosecutor phrased their questions so he could answer without perjuring himself? Of whom are we speaking? Vanezis or RWB?
The Judge had form for assisting in wrongful convictions in the early and late 70's. Yes, the prosecutor for Bamber assisted witnesses to withhold facts.
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The Judge had form for assisting in wrongful convictions in the early and late 70's. Yes, the prosecutor for Bamber assisted witnesses to withhold facts.
You may call it "withholding facts", but I'm willing to bet that both prosecutors and defenders see it only as extracting needful answers to posed questions. We've all seen witnesses cut off/prevented? from going further, than necessary, with their responses -and I very much doubt that such is fiction. Both legal teams know exactly what the want to extract from the witness and they have no intention of allowing loose tongues to get in the way.
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It is possible that he was pinned in that position by the kitchen chairs and the table which were disturbed in a struggle, He fell between the furniture and the Aga and was trapped.
It is if you would like to make up a whole new crime scene.
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You may call it "withholding facts", but I'm willing to bet that both prosecutors and defenders see it only as extracting needful answers to posed questions. We've all seen witnesses cut off/prevented? from going further, than necessary, with their responses -and I very much doubt that such is fiction. Both legal teams know exactly what the want to extract from the witness and they have no intention of allowing loose tongues to get in the way.
I am talking about this case. Not other cases. Conniving to hide facts during a prosecution can lead to MOJ's. If in other cases a defence team connives to withhold facts to secure an acquittal, then such behaviour can lead to wrongful acquittals.
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It is if you would like to make up a whole new crime scene.
It's not making a whole new crime scene, just one element of it.
In fairness the position he was found in suggests strongly that he was manouvered there. The laws of gravity suggesting nothing could be an alternative. However all interpretations must remain open
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It is if you would like to make up a whole new crime scene.
Not make up a new one just showing how the one presented was constructed in the kitchen and main bedroom by pointing to evidence that suggests manipulation.
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It's not making a whole new crime scene, just one element of it.
In fairness the position he was found in suggests strongly that he was manouvered there. The laws of gravity suggesting nothing could be an alternative. However all interpretations must remain open
My comment was was to Bubo?
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Not make up a new one just showing how the one presented was constructed in the kitchen and main bedroom by pointing to evidence that suggests manipulation.
Nothing suggest that Nevill was trapped against the AGA.
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I am talking about this case. Not other cases. Conniving to hide facts during a prosecution can lead to MOJ's. If in other cases a defence team connives to withhold facts to secure an acquittal, then such behaviour can lead to wrongful acquittals.
With all the twists and turns to make things fit, I'm not sure what case we'er even discussing here!
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With all the twists and turns to make things fit, I'm not sure what case we'er even discussing here!
It starts with Judge Jane at post 254 😏
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It starts with Judge Jane at post 254 😏
Really! And there was I, thinking it was about supporters desperately searching for a nothing they could make something from.
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Really! And there was I, thinking it was about supporters desperately searching for a nothing they could make something from.
You think a judge / prosecutor involved in about 27 or so wrongful convictions is nothing.
You think a prosecutor who uses slight of hand in the courtroom to conceal a blood group match with the patriarch of the prosecution witnesses, is nothing.
You think that Vanezis' testimony that he thinks the cut on Sheila's forefinger might be smearing, is nothing.
You think the same pathologist waded in on behalf of the government, against about 13 doctors, regarding the lack of blood in the Dr David Kelly suicide, is nothing.
You think the same pathologist providing expert evidence in another wrongful conviction, is nothing.
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Nothing suggest that Nevill was trapped against the AGA.
That is because he was restaged.
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You think a judge / prosecutor involved in about 27 or so wrongful convictions is nothing.
You think a prosecutor who uses slight of hand in the courtroom to conceal a blood group match with the patriarch of the prosecution witnesses, is nothing.
You think that Vanezis' testimony that he thinks the cut on Sheila's forefinger might be smearing, is nothing.
You think the same pathologist waded in on behalf of the government, against about 13 doctors, regarding the lack of blood in the Dr David Kelly suicide, is nothing.
You think the same pathologist providing expert evidence in another wrongful conviction, is nothing.
I had always thought after the first shot Sheila reached involuntarily for her neck with her forefinger. By this stage Jeremy had already had his "mental blank" with the bashing of Nevill with the rifle butt, so unsurprising he misjudged the placement of the first bullet. He made no such mistake with the second.
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You think a judge / prosecutor involved in about 27 or so wrongful convictions is nothing.
You think a prosecutor who uses slight of hand in the courtroom to conceal a blood group match with the patriarch of the prosecution witnesses, is nothing.
You think that Vanezis' testimony that he thinks the cut on Sheila's forefinger might be smearing, is nothing.
You think the same pathologist waded in on behalf of the government, against about 13 doctors, regarding the lack of blood in the Dr David Kelly suicide, is nothing.
You think the same pathologist providing expert evidence in another wrongful conviction, is nothing.
WOW!! Do I, indeed? How clever of you, Roch! Looks like you could be next to be awarded the Booby prize of being named Mystic.
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That is because he was restaged.
He was staged - by Bamber.
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Doesn't matter if you haven’t got time Snow, I’m away for a while anyway.
iv'e delayed or might have to cancel my trip now Snow.
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My comment was was to Bubo?
You have often interjected your view when I have been in conversation with Adam.
It's a forum
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He was staged - by Bamber.
In your opinion
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He was staged - by Bamber.
Why would JB need to stage NB? He could have left him where he died. I suppose one could try to make a case for staging SC since according to guilt supporters he needed to make her look like the perpetrator. NB restaging is a silly argument with no basis in reason and a few posts ago you were arguing he had been nowhere near the Aga and it was impossible. Your arguments get thinner by the day. The only ones who would need to restage him would be EP.
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You have often interjected your view when I have been in conversation with Adam.
It's a forum
So what, you thought I was talking to you on a specific point, I wasn't! You tend to ignore direct questions when they ARE put to you, especially about providing evidence but on this occasion, I wasn't talking to you!
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Why would JB need to stage NB? He could have left him where he died. I suppose one could try to make a case for staging SC since according to guilt supporters he needed to make her look like the perpetrator. NB restaging is a silly argument with no basis in reason and a few posts ago you were arguing he had been nowhere near the Aga and it was impossible. Your arguments get thinner by the day. The only ones who would need to restage him would be EP.
But the police staging the victims left right and centre is a sensible argument? ;D ;D
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So what, you thought I was talking to you on a specific point, I wasn't! You tend to ignore direct questions when they ARE put to you, especially about providing evidence but on this occasion, I wasn't talking to you!
About a photograph of Shelia and Mabel Speakman from 1985?
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iv'e delayed or might have to cancel my trip now Snow.
OK,thanks for the info HB.
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About a photograph of Shelia and Mabel Speakman from 1985?
THAT and what happened when you wrote to Bamber about the AP?
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Why would JB need to stage NB? He could have left him where he died. I suppose one could try to make a case for staging SC since according to guilt supporters he needed to make her look like the perpetrator. NB restaging is a silly argument with no basis in reason and a few posts ago you were arguing he had been nowhere near the Aga and it was impossible. Your arguments get thinner by the day. The only ones who would need to restage him would be EP.
Why would the police?? Your arguments are a none starter but you really believe they might be of value to those in the know ;D
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THAT and what happened when you wrote to Bamber about the AP?
Can you not conduct self research?
The use of capitals don't hammer home a point.
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Bamber only staged Sheila.
He lifted Nevill for two obvious reasons.
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Why would the police?? Your arguments are a none starter but you really believe they might be of value to those in the know ;D
They needed to get access to the fire box on the Aga to burn items used in the restaging and later to retrieve any remnants, which became DB2 fire debris.
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THAT and what happened when you wrote to Bamber about the AP?
Chapter 31 of CAL mentions the answer machine.
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Chapter 31 of CAL mentions the answer machine.
Please quote.
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As discussed on countless occassions the AM does not prevent Jeremy Bamber from recieving a call from Nevill Bamber.
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As discussed on countless occassions the AM does not prevent Jeremy Bamber from recieving a call from Nevill Bamber.
No, but it makes possible a call from Jeremy at White House Farm to his answerphone at Goldhanger.
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Chapter 31 of CAL mentions the answer machine.
Please quote.
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Otherwise can ILB post the page on here.
He often posts pages from CAL's book. Surprised he hasn't done on this issue. He thought the issue was worthy of him writing to Bamber.
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No, but it makes possible a call from Jeremy at White House Farm to his answerphone at Goldhanger.
It also makes it much less likely Nevill would phone him. Or that he would get to speak to Bamber.
The CT have always been silent on the AM. Which is not surprising.
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Please quote.
Virginia Greaves had left a message on the answer machine at Bourtree Cottage. She and Jeremy had dated briefly when his relationship with Suzette was on the wane. Now working as a personnel assistant in London, she needed new accommodation and was interested in Sheila's flat. Jeremy suggested meeting up and collected her on Friday evening.
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Virginia Greaves had left a message on the answer machine at Bourtree Cottage. She and Jeremy had dated briefly when his relationship with Suzette was on the wane. Now working as a personnel assistant in London, she needed new accommodation and was interested in Sheila's flat. Jeremy suggested meeting up and collected her on Friday evening.
That you. That is conclusive.
Very damaging for Bamber.
Diaappointed but not surprised ILB kept this quiet.
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That you. That is conclusive.
Very damaging for Bamber.
Diaappointed but not surprised ILB kept this quiet.
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Virginia Greaves had left a message on the answer machine at Bourtree Cottage. She and Jeremy had dated briefly when his relationship with Suzette was on the wane. Now working as a personnel assistant in London, she needed new accommodation and was interested in Sheila's flat. Jeremy suggested meeting up and collected her on Friday evening.
This is not saying he had an AM pre massacre.
Supporters have always claimed he bought an AM after the massacre.
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This is not saying he had an AM pre massacre.
Supporters have always claimed he bought an AM after the massacre.
I have always claimed that having an AM didn't make a bit of difference given that he could awake like anybody else could before the AM kicked in
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I do wish someone like CAL would confirm he had an AM pre massacre. It is a very important point.
Her book is long enough and was released over 30 years after the massacre.
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I do wish someone like CAL would confirm he had an AM pre massacre. It is a very important point.
Her book is long enough and was released over 30 years after the massacre.
It really isn't
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I have always claimed that having an AM didn't make a bit of difference given that he could awake like anybody else could before the AM kicked in
Within 3 - 8 rings. I don't think so.
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Suspect both Wilkes & CAL believe people will correctly know Bamber had an AM pre & post massacre. There is enough supporting evidence.
It is only really hardcore supporters who argue differently.
Guest29835 always argued he bought an AM after the massacre. But had no proof. He knew how damaging it was.
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ILB seems to accept he had an AM pre massacre. But claims this is not damaging to him.
The CT disagree & have kept silent on this for 38 years.
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Within 3 - 8 rings. I don't think so.
Have you got a source of three to eight rings ?
AE tried phoning Bourtree post massacre, read her August WS. She makes no mention of an AM
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ILB seems to accept he had an AM pre massacre. But claims this is not damaging to him.
The CT disagree & have kept silent on this for 38 years.
I don't see it as a detriment to Bamber
Having had an AM and been woken up in the middle of the night via landline myself.
Just a tool to be used against Bamber
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This is not saying he had an AM pre massacre.
Supporters have always claimed he bought an AM after the massacre.
I took it to mean the answerphone was already there. He took the video recorder from the lounge at White House Farm and replaced it with one he had at Bourtree Cottage from Radio Rentals. This might suggest that he wasn't splashing out on gadgets post-murders. As another anecdote Mike Teskowski claimed on several occasions that police had retrieved tapes from Jeremy's answerphone shortly after the tragedy.
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I don't see it as a detriment to Bamber
Having had an AM and been woken up in the middle of the night via landline myself.
Just a tool to be used against Bamber
But one would have thought there would have been a denial of the Prosecution's scenario had he been devoid of one.
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But one would have thought there would have been a denial of the Prosecution's scenario had he been devoid of one.
If it had been such a strong point it would have been brought up in cross examination of Bamber. The 999 point certainly was.
Having read the cross examination Transcript there is no mention of the AM.
It was never rendered detrimental
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I took it to mean the answerphone was already there. He took the video recorder from the lounge at White House Farm and replaced it with one he had at Bourtree Cottage from Radio Rentals. This might suggest that he wasn't splashing out on gadgets post-murders. As another anecdote Mike Teskowski claimed on several occasions that police had retrieved tapes from Jeremy's answerphone shortly after the tragedy.
Yes there is a mountain of evidence Bamber had an AM pre massacre. Which I have posted.
Both CambridgeCutie and Guest29835 have always said he got one after the massacre. Although have no evidence.
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I agree with Guest29835 & the CT rather than ILB on this.
The AM is very incriminating.
However disagree with Guest29835 that he bought the AM after the massacre.
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Five obvious reasons why it is very incriminating -
Nevill would not ring Bamber's AM.
Bamber would not wake from 3-8 rings.
Bamber would not get to the phone within 3-8 rings.
Nevill would give up after 1 or 2 attempts if he did even attempt.
Bamber could make a received call from WHF to Goldhanger.
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Nevill would also be aware Bamber would be 'sleeping like a log'.
No point in ringing at all.
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Have you got a source of three to eight rings ?
AE tried phoning Bourtree post massacre, read her August WS. She makes no mention of an AM
Standard time.
AE does say Bamber responded.
Brett left a message just after the massacre saying he was coming over.
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What is more possible is Nevill to ring Bamber's AM once and leave a message.
Bamber may wake from a combination of phone ringing & shouting voice message.
Or he may just wake up early naturally anyway. Play Nevill's message & then call the police etc.
Then he would have had a record of Nevill's message for the police.
More possible but that certainly did not happen.
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Virginia Greaves had left a message on the answer machine at Bourtree Cottage. She and Jeremy had dated briefly when his relationship with Suzette was on the wane. Now working as a personnel assistant in London, she needed new accommodation and was interested in Sheila's flat. Jeremy suggested meeting up and collected her on Friday evening.
Surely this is evidence of an AM some time after the event going by the wording?
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Surely this is evidence of an AM some time after the event going by the wording?
It's ambiguous. Nowhere is it mentioned that he bought one post-murders, and why would he draw attention to himself had the answerphone been part of the murder plan? Carol Ann Lee is specific about the video recorders so why not be on the subject of the answerphone?
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It's ambiguous. Nowhere is it mentioned that he bought one post-murders, and why would he draw attention to himself had the answerphone been part of the murder plan? Carol Ann Lee is specific about the video recorders so why not be on the subject of the answerphone?
Given his situation post 07/08 it would make sense to get one because of all the issues that would arise. Phone calls from all and sundry and having to deal with all the issues related to the farm, finances, solicitors etc. etc. He could have purchased lots of things why would an AM be any more important than say a brief case or a new radio tape player for his car. The video recorder was removed from WHF.
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Given his situation post 07/08 it would make sense to get one because of all the issues that would arise. Phone calls from all and sundry and having to deal with all the issues related to the farm, finances, solicitors etc. etc. He could have purchased lots of things why would an AM be any more important than say a brief case or a new radio tape player for his car. The video recorder was removed from WHF.
I don't really accept that. The point about the video recorder was it replaced the one he was renting, so he was saving money. There would be a lull until probate was granted and in the interim he would not have access to much cash, hence the attempt to flog nude photographs of his dead sister. As for Jeremy taking charge of White House Farm, it's a bit of a stretch. He installed Peter Eaton as temporary manager and was in any case determined to sell up as soon as was practicable.
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I don't really accept that. The point about the video recorder was it replaced the one he was renting, so he was saving money. There would be a lull until probate was granted and in the interim he would not have access to much cash, hence the attempt to flog nude photographs of his dead sister. As for Jeremy taking charge of White House Farm, it's a bit of a stretch. He installed Peter Eaton as temporary manager and was in any case determined to sell up as soon as was practicable.
Even though PE was in charge he would still have 'a mountain' as Adam would say of administration work to undertake and he would have lots of people trying to contact him involving all sorts of issues. Not the nude photos argument again. Anything to blacken him. I thought this had been put to bed and in any case it has no bearing on the case itself with regard to guilt or innocence. There is no evidence he possessed an AM pre 07/08
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Can you not conduct self research?
The use of capitals don't hammer home a point.
My research is on the forum because that's the point of it. The reason you won't answer is because he clearly didn't bother to reply to you. You're the one who said you would share what he said. The use of caps clearly does hammer the point because you noticed it. I'll repeat my initial post - my post wasn't in response to you - you made a mistake in your reply, you could have just said 'ok' - it saves so much BS!
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Even though PE was in charge he would still have 'a mountain' as Adam would say of administration work to undertake and he would have lots of people trying to contact him involving all sorts of issues. Not the nude photos argument again. Anything to blacken him. I thought this had been put to bed and in any case it has no bearing on the case itself with regard to guilt or innocence. There is no evidence he possessed an AM pre 07/08
You see I would accept this had Jeremy made it plain that he was staying in situ at White House Farm. As it was he decamped to Moreshead Mansions in haste, a property he had inherited as a direct consequence of the tragedy.
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You see I would accept this had Jeremy made it plain that he was staying in situ at White House Farm. As it was he decamped to Moreshead Mansions in haste, a property he had inherited as a direct consequence of the tragedy.
You have no soul Steve. He wanted to be away from all the hullabaloo, the gossiping, the memories and local press intrusion. He wanted to be away from it all. A perfectly normal human reaction. All you can see thorough your blackened heart is deceit and cold calculating behaviour.
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They needed to get access to the fire box on the Aga to burn items used in the restaging and later to retrieve any remnants, which became DB2 fire debris.
So they restaged in order to restage? So why did they restage in the first place?
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You have no soul Steve. He wanted to be away from all the hullabaloo, the gossiping, the memories and local press intrusion. He wanted to be away from it all. A perfectly normal human reaction. All you can see thorough your blackened heart is deceit and cold calculating behaviour.
And you don't see any of that in all of the people you have linked to your conspiracy?
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And you don't see any of that in all of the people you have linked to your conspiracy?
How many people have the police fit up in 70's / 80's etc? Power corrupts. They are protected.
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So they restaged in order to restage? So why did they restage in the first place?
I did not realise you had such a poor command of the English language. They moved him once There was other restaging which gave rise to the need to burn items. I have already outlined that the main bedroom was another part of the restaging.
Not make up a new one just showing how the one presented was constructed in the kitchen and main bedroom by pointing to evidence that suggests manipulation.
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You have no soul Steve. He wanted to be away from all the hullabaloo, the gossiping, the memories and local press intrusion. He wanted to be away from it all. A perfectly normal human reaction. All you can see thorough your blackened heart is deceit and cold calculating behaviour.
I write from the heart. You can't have it both ways: either Jeremy bought an answerphone post-murders to deal with the administration inheriting a farm entailed, or he wanted to get away from it all, in which case an answerphone is the last thing he would have purchased.
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And you don't see any of that in all of the people you have linked to your conspiracy?
Not at all. I see crooked police who rather than admit their mistake chose to frame a young innocent man and have refused to this day to put their hands up. They have worked tirelessly to protect their malfeasance.
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I write from the heart. You can't have it both ways: either Jeremy bought an answerphone post-murders to deal with the administration inheriting a farm entailed, or he wanted to get away from it all, in which case an answerphone is the last thing he would have purchased.
No. People have answer phones and switch them off when at home and retrieve messages when they return say from holiday. Things/life were/was not as fast paced in those days and I know that is how I and family and friends tended to use them. He could catch up on things when he was back at home for a meeting etc. He could switch back on at a time of his choosing
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I did not realise you had such a poor command of the English language. They moved him once There was other restaging which gave rise to the need to burn items. I have already outlined that the main bedroom was another part of the restaging.
Why would you know about my many talents? I know your theory, no need to explain it again, it's doesn't get any less silly in the retelling.
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How many people have the police fit up in 70's / 80's etc? Power corrupts. They are protected.
One size doesn't fit all. How many did they not fit up?
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Why would you know about my many talents? I know your theory, no need to explain it again, it's doesn't get any less silly in the retelling.
If you know my theory then your post was a stupid response because you had to have known there was other restaging and this points to even sillier behaviour or childish pointless points scoring.
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One size doesn't fit all. How many did they not fit up?
You are trying to make it seem that this 'fitting up' behaviour was a daily occurrence. It was a feature that was more prevalent in the past and history shows this.
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My research is on the forum because that's the point of it. The reason you won't answer is because he clearly didn't bother to reply to you. You're the one who said you would share what he said. The use of caps clearly does hammer the point because you noticed it. I'll repeat my initial post - my post wasn't in response to you - you made a mistake in your reply, you could have just said 'ok' - it saves so much BS!
I noticed it because I read your response.
You would argue today is Tuesday!
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I noticed it because I read your response.
You would argue today is Tuesday!
The response that wasn't QUOTED TO YOU!
I would argue today was Tuesday, if it was TUESDAY. If someone asked you what day it was, you'd ask them to do their research. It's so much easier to just admit you 'don't know'.
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The response that wasn't QUOTED TO YOU!
I would argue today was Tuesday, if it was TUESDAY. If someone asked you what day it was, you'd ask them to do their research. It's so much easier to just admit you 'don't know'.
I know the photo of Shelia and Mabel Speakman is from 1985.
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I know the photo of Shelia and Mabel Speakman is from 1985.
The rest of us don't.
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The rest of us don't.
Are you Arthur Scargill now?
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Are you Arthur Scargill now?
Not last time I looked ........ hang on ................. Nope definitely not (phew!!).
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Not last time I looked ........ hang on ................. Nope definitely not (phew!!).
I'm not a student in a school, I'm also not carrying out a university assignment, and neither am I writing a true crime bio. It's a internet forum.
However I know the photograph is from 1985 from my research I have undertaken. If you choose not to believe that. Then that is fine.
Fundamentally it's a picture of Shelia with her grandmother Mabel Speakman.t's not a tool used to promote the innocence of Bamber. It has little value in that regard.
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You may be interested to know that Roger Wilkes book provides little or anything in sources. And that's from working in conjecture alongside the convicted man on the book! Although of course it is a none biased book and not an innocent pro one
I actually enjoyed it and prefer it to CALS
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Bamber made the burns.
This is roughly where the Tear was on Neville's PJ's Adam, probably in line with the burns but 2 inch to one side, imagine the PJ's being stretched or misjointed on his back during a struggle, looks big enough to insert an hot object through the hole? Is it a coincidence? There was a Poker at the side of the Aga and there was the rifle, two instruments that could have been used?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=38321;image
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This is roughly where the Tear was on Neville's PJ's Adam, probably in line with the burns but 2 inch to one side, imagine the PJ's being stretched or misjointed on his back during a struggle, looks big enough to insert an hot object through the hole? Is it a coincidence? There was a Poker at the side of the Aga and there was the rifle, two instruments that could have been used?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=38321;image
That's a good point! Boyce used bare pig skin (and could still only manage two burns) but NB was wearing his PJ top!!
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This is roughly where the Tear was on Neville's PJ's Adam, probably in line with the burns but 2 inch to one side, imagine the PJ's being stretched or misjointed on his back during a struggle, looks big enough to insert an hot object through the hole? Is it a coincidence? There was a Poker at the side of the Aga and there was the rifle, two instruments that could have been used?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=38321;image
I think experts have ruled out the poker as having made the marks. The Aga scenario is interesting.
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I'm not a student in a school, I'm also not carrying out a university assignment, and neither am I writing a true crime bio. It's a internet forum.
However I know the photograph is from 1985 from my research I have undertaken. If you choose not to believe that. Then that is fine.
Fundamentally it's a picture of Shelia with her grandmother Mabel Speakman.t's not a tool used to promote the innocence of Bamber. It has little value in that regard.
It's not a case of believing but not very long ago, you were asking Adam to post proof of someone making the seawall journey at night. If you're not willing to post proof of your own research, then why should anyone else? What kind of reference material would the forum have if everyone just made claims and posted no evidence or sources?
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It's not a case of believing but not very long ago, you were asking Adam to post proof of someone making the seawall journey at night. If you're not willing to post proof of your own research, then why should anyone else? What kind of reference material would the forum have if everyone just made claims and posted no evidence or sources?
Adam offered up 1000 sources of people who had supposably cycled the sea wall.
He offered that information not me.
I know it isn't true. So I just asked him to prove all 1000, he in the event just gave one.
You don't accept my photograph. That's fine. Nothing about the photograph proves Jeremy's innocence. It's just a bloody photo of Shelia and Mabel from 85.
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It's not a case of believing but not very long ago, you were asking Adam to post proof of someone making the seawall journey at night. If you're not willing to post proof of your own research, then why should anyone else? What kind of reference material would the forum have if everyone just made claims and posted no evidence or sources?
I did post proof. Months ago - Gunfire Graffiti.
ILB says he lied.
RB also says it's easy to see at night.
ILB says RB lied.
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Adam offered up 1000 sources of people who had supposably cycled the sea wall.
He offered that information not me.
I know it isn't true. So I just asked him to prove all 1000, he in the event just gave one.
You don't accept my photograph. That's fine. Nothing about the photograph proves Jeremy's innocence. It's just a bloody photo of Shelia and Mabel from 85.
Why has no one ever said the Sea Wall cannot be cycled at night?
Hundreds would have been there over the last 38 years. Interested in or working on the case.
You saying it is dismissed as you have never been there. Day or night.
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I think experts have ruled out the poker as having made the marks. The Aga scenario is interesting.
It was suggested Steve at trial, because there was a poker next to the Aga, this could have been used, also it was included in the Dickenson Report? Rather a coincidence that the tear is at the same level on the PJ's as the marks though? This could explain why the PJ's was still on him?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5981;image
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It was suggested Steve at trial, because there was a poker next to the Aga, this could have been used, also it was included in the Dickenson Report? Rather a coincidence that the tear is at the same level on the PJ's as the marks though? This could explain why the PJ's was still on him?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5981;image
If Neville is slumped forward as per picture and his arms are dangling down in the drooped position, this would stretch the PJ fabric and open up the hole exposing the bare skin? Try it?
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If Neville is slumped forward as per picture and his arms are dangling down in the drooped position, this would stretch the PJ fabric and open up the hole exposing the bare skin? Try it?
By leaning forward as per Neville, with his arms drooping down, this in turn pulls on his lats and broadens his back which would stretch the PJ's exposing the hole in the PJ to bare skin.
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I did post proof. Months ago - Gunfire Graffiti.
ILB says he lied.
RB also says it's easy to see at night.
ILB says RB lied.
His source was picked apart by me. Reference his own words and timings and picture sources.
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Why has no one ever said the Sea Wall cannot be cycled at night?
Hundreds would have been there over the last 38 years. Interested in or working on the case.
Was initially a 1000
Adam gave ' one source '
999 to go.
Adam offered 1000 sources. I never prompted him to do so.
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His source was picked apart by me. Reference his own words and timings and picture sources.
Two sources. Of course you did - 'they lied'.
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Was initially a 1000
Adam gave ' one source '
999 to go.
Adam offered 1000 sources. I never prompted him to do so.
Why has no one from either side ever said the Sea Wall cannot be cycled at night?
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Why has no one from either side ever said the Sea Wall cannot be cycled at night?
They have according to you.
999, without you producing any.
But why would anyone when common sense dictates otherwise?
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Worth another read
The thing is HB, if the Aga did make the marks then this is in Bambers favour,however if it had been accepted long ago that the rifle barrel made the marks it still would not have proven who was holding the rifle at the time,hence the findings would have favoured no one.
Nevill lying against the Aga has to favour Bamber unless you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry.Even then the police would have some explaining to do.
And one other thing,if Bamber killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga he would have known what made the marks,and it goes without saying that he must have known that the rifle did not make the marks.So why waste precious time and money trying to prove that the rifle DID make the marks?
Senseless surely.
I have always thought that its the things that JB hasn't known about or brought up that points to his innocence.
Of course if JB had left NB by the AGA he would know the police had moved him and he would have directed his thinking and strategy to expose this but in a way that did not implicate him if he was guilty
If innocent and naïve he would not have considered it at all after all he knew it was SC and with her mental issues, easily capable For most of the time since the tragedy efforts have been made to re-address key issues but has been hampered and restricted by lack of disclosure and the pace of the legal systems.
From the start I have tried to develop an alternative narrative to that put up by the police and which is documented in law.
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The thing is HB, if the Aga did make the marks then this is in Bambers favour,however if it had been accepted long ago that the rifle barrel made the marks it still would not have proven who was holding the rifle at the time,hence the findings would have favoured no one.
Nevill lying against the Aga has to favour Bamber unless you believe that the police moved Nevill upon entry.Even then the police would have some explaining to do.
And one other thing,if Bamber killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga he would have known what made the marks,and it goes without saying that he must have known that the rifle did not make the marks.So why waste precious time and money trying to prove that the rifle DID make the marks?
Senseless surely.
I have always thought that its the things that JB hasn't known about or brought up that points to his innocence.
In the early stages JB was trying to prove that the rifle did not have a SM fitted. The SM evidence and JM's testimony were the only real evidence against him and had to be challenged. All the other information was according to Steve-UK purely circumstantial.
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Worth another read
Of course if JB had left NB by the AGA he would know the police had moved him and he would have directed his thinking and strategy to expose this but in a way that did not implicate him if he was guilty
If innocent and naïve he would not have considered it at all after all he knew it was SC and with her mental issues, easily capable For most of the time since the tragedy efforts have been made to key issues but has been hampered and restricted by lack of disclosure and the pace of the legal systems.
From the start I have tried to develop an alternative narrative to that put up by the police and which is documented in law.
Exactly,well said Bubo. JBs actions regarding the burns to Nevill and also the blue Bible have to point to his innocence surely!
When he was told the Bible had been destroyed before his trial he made little fuss,yet he must have set the Bible up with finger prints and possibly the suicide note that Stan Jones spoke of,this was his alibi,yet he just accepted that the police had destroyed it.
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Exactly,well said Bubo. JBs actions regarding the burns to Nevill and also the blue Bible have to point to his innocence surely!
When he was told the Bible had been destroyed before his trial he made little fuss,yet he must have set the Bible up with finger prints and possibly the suicide note that Stan Jones spoke of,this was his alibi,yet he just accepted that the police had destroyed it.
Thanks Snow. It is ridiculous to suggest that JB would test for signs of life. He would not waste precious time. Even George tells us that he was acting with time constraints.
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Thanks Snow. It is ridiculous to suggest that JB would test for signs of life. He would not waste precious time. Even George tells us that he was acting with time constraints.
I think the likes of Carruso and Vanezis should be speaking up and giving their opinion about the Aga evidence Bubo.
Still,I suppose that would be inapropriate while the evidence is being considered at the moment by the CCRC!
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Exactly,well said Bubo. JBs actions regarding the burns to Nevill and also the blue Bible have to point to his innocence surely!
When he was told the Bible had been destroyed before his trial he made little fuss,yet he must have set the Bible up with finger prints and possibly the suicide note that Stan Jones spoke of,this was his alibi,yet he just accepted that the police had destroyed it.
The bible was very incriminating for Bamber.
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The bible was very incriminating for Bamber.
Why is that Adam?
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Why is that Adam?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11067.msg557921.html#msg557921
All in the COA list.
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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11067.msg557921.html#msg557921
All in the COA list.
Nothing damming their, it was the fire arms officers who said the bible had been moved when looking at the crime scene photos.
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I think the likes of Carruso and Vanezis should be speaking up and giving their opinion about the Aga evidence Bubo.
Still,I suppose that would be inapropriate while the evidence is being considered at the moment by the CCRC!
I would be very surprised if the legal and CT team had not sourced a second opinion to confirm PB's findings. I have already commented on Carruso here.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,12203.msg562828.html#msg562828
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I would be very surprised if the legal and CT team had not sourced a second opinion to confirm PB's findings. I have already commented on Carruso here.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,12203.msg562828.html#msg562828
Ah yes,of course Bubo, Forgot.
Whose George?
George Carusso?
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I think the likes of Carruso and Vanezis should be speaking up and giving their opinion about the Aga evidence Bubo.
Still,I suppose that would be inapropriate while the evidence is being considered at the moment by the CCRC!
Dr Carruso has since passed away due to cancer.
I doubt they would think much of what Boyce is saying. Carruso was a head surgeon at the Phoenix Medical Center Burns unit and Vanezis needs no introduction. Boyce is not experienced or qualified in wounds that are not firearm related. Moreover his initial findings supported what Carruso and Vanezis have said in the past.
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Dr Carruso has since passed away due to cancer.
I doubt they would think much of what Boyce is saying. Carruso was a head surgeon at the Phoenix Medical Center Burns unit and Vanezis needs no introduction. Boyce is not experienced or qualified in wounds that are not firearm related. Moreover his initial findings supported what Carruso and Vanezis have said in the past.
OK thanks for the info Dave.
So you think the rifle made the burns too?
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I would be very surprised if the legal and CT team had not sourced a second opinion to confirm PB's findings. I have already commented on Carruso here.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,12203.msg562828.html#msg562828
How about him falling onto the Aga, during the fight, Jeremy leaving a Nevill close to death, whilst proceeding upstairs to despatch the rest of the family, then finishing him off upon egress of the building?
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How about him falling onto the Aga, during the fight, Jeremy leaving a Nevill close to death, whilst proceeding upstairs to despatch the rest of the family, then finishing him off upon egress of the building?
Why would JB leave him near to death Steve,why wouldn't he make sure before going upstairs?
And if he was that near death how did he end up on the chair scuttle?
How long are you talking about leaving Nevill lying there? Fifteen minutes?
We are led to believe the burns took considerably longer to form,albeit we dont have all the details yet!
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OK thanks for the info Dave.
So you think the rifle made the burns too?
Considering the largest mark has a an unburned area in the centre. I don't really see what else could have caused it. Also you can see in the top right that the burn mark is bleeding slightly. There is no blood on the AGA handle as far as I can see.
(https://i.ibb.co/92PzK2K/mark.jpg)
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Considering the largest mark has a an unburned area in the centre. I don't really see what else could have caused it. Also you can see in the top right that the burn mark is bleeding slightly. There is no blood on the AGA handle as for as I can see.
(https://i.ibb.co/92PzK2K/mark.jpg)
Did both Pathologists who examined the photo or Vanezis who examined Neville’s body mention the fact that the top mark was bleeding, I can’t remember reading it that’s all?
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Considering the largest mark has a an unburned area in the centre. I don't really see what else could have caused it. Also you can see in the top right that the burn mark is bleeding slightly. There is no blood on the AGA handle as far as I can see.
(https://i.ibb.co/92PzK2K/mark.jpg)
But remember Vanezis said the burns were in the midline of the back Dave,full of bunps and dips surely?
The bleeding may have occured after Nevill got up and moved his head up down or sideways.Or if he was moved later on by the police. No real necessity for the wounds to bleed before they were stretched upon movement is there Dave?
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But remember Vanezis said the burns were in the midline of the back Dave,full of bunps and dips surely?
The bleeding may have occured after Nevill got up and moved his head up down or sideways.Or if he was moved later on by the police. No real necessity for the wounds to bleed before they were stretched upon movement is there Dave?
Am I reading it right Snow, are you now saying the burn mark was bleeding? Who says the skin was broken to cause bleeding, please post the documents, how I understand it, the skin wasn’t broken, hence why they was asking if they were old wounds at trial, also there was no peeling. From a first aid point of view, very rare you got bleeding from first degree burns, might from second degree burns, but that’s deeper into the skin, first degree burns are usually in the epidermis, the blood is in the next layer called the dermis. The difference with a burn is the heat actually stops the blood from flowing. Anyway, you seem to have read what Vanezis has documented, so I will be corrected when you post where he say’s the wounds were bleeding?
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Am I reading it right Snow, are you now saying the burn mark was bleeding? Who says the skin was broken to cause bleeding, please post the documents, how I understand it, the skin wasn’t broken, hence why they was asking if they were old wounds at trial, also there was no peeling. From a first aid point of view, very rare you got bleeding from first degree burns, might from second degree burns, but that’s deeper into the skin, first degree burns are usually in the epidermis, the blood is in the next layer called the dermis. The difference with a burn is the heat actually stops the blood from flowing. Anyway, you seem to have read what Vanezis has documented, so I will be corrected when you post where he say’s the wounds were bleeding?
It is Dave who talks about bleeding in post 368 HB.
Do we know if the burns were 1st,2nd or 3rd degree?
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It is Dave who talks about bleeding in post 368 HB.
Do we know if the burns were 1st,2nd or 3rd degree?
Do we know if anyone other than Boyce, Boo, and you think they're burns?
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Do we know if anyone other than Boyce, Boo, and you think they're burns?
What else Jane?
I thought most claimed they were burns,either by the Aga or the rifle barrel?
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What else Jane?
I thought most claimed they were burns,either by the Aga or the rifle barrel?
If 'most' are honest, it's probably more about what they don't believe, ie, I don't believe it had anything to do with the Aga. As for the rifle, I don't know.
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Can I suggest that the reason for the appearance of an unburnt centre to the top burn is caused by two factors. 1 the shape 2 the handle probably has a heat retardant coating which due to use has been eroded at the edges.
The common types of heat-resistant coatings used for metal surfaces are: silicone-, ceramic-, epoxy-, zinc-, aluminium-, and phenolic resin-based coatings. These coatings typically provide excellent heat resistance, thermal protection, and corrosion protection on metal surfaces.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=8cOlRPaq&id=5917EA275B074D03C2939929C0E921EA5CCD172D&thid=OIP.8cOlRPaq1Tiz3B4jtrHIbgAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.riversideranges.co.uk%2fimages%2fproduct%2f140%2f1%2fAGA_Fire_Door_T_Handle_Chrome_For_Traditional_AGA_Ashpit_Door-removebg-preview-removebg-preview.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.f1c3a544f6aad538b3dc1e23b6b1c86e%3frik%3dLRfNXOoh6cApmQ%26pid%3dImgRaw%26r%3d0&exph=577&expw=433&q=aga+door+handles&simid=607997924869612438&FORM=IRPRST&ck=40AE4C2A451141D08E99A6FE243309D5&selectedIndex=10&itb=0&qpvt=aga+door+handles
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Can I suggest that the reason for the appearance of an unburnt centre to the top burn is caused by two factors. 1 the shape 2 the handle probably has a heat retardant coating which due to use has been eroded at the edges.
The common types of heat-resistant coatings used for metal surfaces are: silicone-, ceramic-, epoxy-, zinc-, aluminium-, and phenolic resin-based coatings. These coatings typically provide excellent heat resistance, thermal protection, and corrosion protection on metal surfaces.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=8cOlRPaq&id=5917EA275B074D03C2939929C0E921EA5CCD172D&thid=OIP.8cOlRPaq1Tiz3B4jtrHIbgAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.riversideranges.co.uk%2fimages%2fproduct%2f140%2f1%2fAGA_Fire_Door_T_Handle_Chrome_For_Traditional_AGA_Ashpit_Door-removebg-preview-removebg-preview.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.f1c3a544f6aad538b3dc1e23b6b1c86e%3frik%3dLRfNXOoh6cApmQ%26pid%3dImgRaw%26r%3d0&exph=577&expw=433&q=aga+door+handles&simid=607997924869612438&FORM=IRPRST&ck=40AE4C2A451141D08E99A6FE243309D5&selectedIndex=10&itb=0&qpvt=aga+door+handles
Quite possible Bubo,quite possible.
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Can I suggest that the reason for the appearance of an unburnt centre to the top burn is caused by two factors. 1 the shape 2 the handle probably has a heat retardant coating which due to use has been eroded at the edges.
The common types of heat-resistant coatings used for metal surfaces are: silicone-, ceramic-, epoxy-, zinc-, aluminium-, and phenolic resin-based coatings. These coatings typically provide excellent heat resistance, thermal protection, and corrosion protection on metal surfaces.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=8cOlRPaq&id=5917EA275B074D03C2939929C0E921EA5CCD172D&thid=OIP.8cOlRPaq1Tiz3B4jtrHIbgAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.riversideranges.co.uk%2fimages%2fproduct%2f140%2f1%2fAGA_Fire_Door_T_Handle_Chrome_For_Traditional_AGA_Ashpit_Door-removebg-preview-removebg-preview.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.f1c3a544f6aad538b3dc1e23b6b1c86e%3frik%3dLRfNXOoh6cApmQ%26pid%3dImgRaw%26r%3d0&exph=577&expw=433&q=aga+door+handles&simid=607997924869612438&FORM=IRPRST&ck=40AE4C2A451141D08E99A6FE243309D5&selectedIndex=10&itb=0&qpvt=aga+door+handles
I wanted to rewrite the article i put up, glad you seen it, i didn't think i had put it down right, i hadn't got time to rewrite it. Vanezis states that the top mark is oval and the centre is white, now if you was leaning against a door knob the centre would also come into contact with your skin and cause a burn, unless of course the centre was HOLLOW? Especially if you was layed and pressed into the oven door knob.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37388;image
Ask yourself, why is the centre of the Mark white compared to the outer edges of the top Mark, the only explanation can be, that the object used to inflict this mark must have a hollow centre and doesn't come into contact with Neville's skin, where as the door knob has a solid centre and would come in contact with his skin.
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Can I suggest that the reason for the appearance of an unburnt centre to the top burn is caused by two factors. 1 the shape 2 the handle probably has a heat retardant coating which due to use has been eroded at the edges.
The common types of heat-resistant coatings used for metal surfaces are: silicone-, ceramic-, epoxy-, zinc-, aluminium-, and phenolic resin-based coatings. These coatings typically provide excellent heat resistance, thermal protection, and corrosion protection on metal surfaces.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=8cOlRPaq&id=5917EA275B074D03C2939929C0E921EA5CCD172D&thid=OIP.8cOlRPaq1Tiz3B4jtrHIbgAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.riversideranges.co.uk%2fimages%2fproduct%2f140%2f1%2fAGA_Fire_Door_T_Handle_Chrome_For_Traditional_AGA_Ashpit_Door-removebg-preview-removebg-preview.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.f1c3a544f6aad538b3dc1e23b6b1c86e%3frik%3dLRfNXOoh6cApmQ%26pid%3dImgRaw%26r%3d0&exph=577&expw=433&q=aga+door+handles&simid=607997924869612438&FORM=IRPRST&ck=40AE4C2A451141D08E99A6FE243309D5&selectedIndex=10&itb=0&qpvt=aga+door+handles
BUBO is responding to an article i had written but taken down to rewrite.
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Can I suggest that the reason for the appearance of an unburnt centre to the top burn is caused by two factors. the handle probably has a heat retardant coating which due to use has been eroded at the edges.
The common types of heat-resistant coatings used for metal surfaces are: silicone-, ceramic-, epoxy-, zinc-, aluminium-, and phenolic resin-based coatings. These coatings typically provide excellent heat resistance, thermal protection, and corrosion protection on metal surfaces.
;D ;D ;D Best one yet.
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I wanted to rewrite the article i put up, glad you seen it, i didn't think i had put it down right, i hadn't got time to rewrite it. Vanezis states that the top mark is oval and the centre is white, now if you was leaning against a door knob the centre would also come into contact with your skin and cause a burn, unless of course the centre was HOLLOW? Especially if you was layed and pressed into the oven door knob.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37388;image
Ask yourself, why is the centre of the Mark white compared to the outer edges of the top Mark, the only explanation can be, that the object used to inflict this mark must have a hollow centre that doesn't come into contact with Neville's skin, where as the door knob has a solid centre and would come in contact with his skin.
Wrong
My explanation is also valid and since the handle is convex and not concave your explanation falls. Metals can be coated with retardant materials as my quote shows. You just don't like my explanation.
You will never change stance even when presented with strong evidence.
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If 'most' are honest, it's probably more about what they don't believe, ie, I don't believe it had anything to do with the Aga. As for the rifle, I don't know.
If it was the rifle barrel Jane,where would it be heated up in the Aga?
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If it was the rifle barrel Jane,where would it be heated up in the Aga?
Much faster to use the heat core than hold it upright on the hottest burner.
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I wanted to rewrite the article i put up, glad you seen it, i didn't think i had put it down right, i hadn't got time to rewrite it. Vanezis states that the top mark is oval and the centre is white, now if you was leaning against a door knob the centre would also come into contact with your skin and cause a burn, unless of course the centre was HOLLOW? Especially if you was layed and pressed into the oven door knob.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37388;image
Ask yourself, why is the centre of the Mark white compared to the outer edges of the top Mark, the only explanation can be, that the object used to inflict this mark must have a hollow centre and doesn't come into contact with Neville's skin, where as the door knob has a solid centre and would come in contact with his skin.
That is a misquote.
He says "the uppermost one was approximately oval in shape measuring 5/8" and had a slightly pale central area" In other words there was a small amount of discoloration. Do not misquote to enhance your arguments.
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Much faster to use the heat core than hold it upright on the hottest burner.
Heat core?
Hottest burner?
None the wiser Jane!
Could you be a bit less technical! ie,. do you mean furnace and hot plate?
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Much faster to use the heat core than hold it upright on the hottest burner.
Don't touch the outer edges of your AGA oven knob handle Jane, your door knob heat resistant coating may be worn away, its ok to pull from the middle though?
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Don't touch the outer edges of your AGA oven knob handle Jane, your door knob heat resistant coating may be worn away, its ok to pull from the middle though?
I rather imagine it probably is, HB. It's a model from1930ish! Just think how many hands have handled it!!
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That is a misquote.
He says "the uppermost one was approximately oval in shape measuring 5/8" and had a slightly pale central area" In other words there was a small amount of discoloration. Do not misquote to enhance your arguments.
A pale color is a color that is whitish to the point of being almost colorless.
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I rather imagine it probably is, HB. It's a model from1930ish! Just think how many hands have handled it!!
It's probably too late then Jane, youv'e took the heat resistant coating from off your handle.
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It's probably too late then Jane, youv'e took the heat resistant coating from off your handle.
D'ya think I should invest in some of those super heavyweight gloves before I get burned? Dr Gustav Dalen, Aga's inventor, was totally blind. He created it because he thought the cooker his wife was using was dangerous. D'ya think he wore super heavyweight gloves to prevent him getting burned?
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D'ya think I should invest in some of those super heavyweight gloves before I get burned? Dr Gustav Dalen, Aga's inventor, was totally blind. He created it because he thought the cooker his wife was using was dangerous. D'ya think he wore super heavyweight gloves to prevent him getting burned?
Should certainly come with a warning, Do not touch the handle when the cooker is on, or do not refuel with coal once lit. You wouldn't want an AGA in the house with Children.
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It's probably too late then Jane, youv'e took the heat resistant coating from off your handle.
Do not be facetious because you are losing the argument. All metals can be plated. Everyone is familiar with wear and tear on say copper plating, silver plating and chrome plating. Plating with heat retardant is no different. and I quoted these materials.
QUOTE
Heat-resistant coatings are designed to tolerate high or extreme temperatures without compromising the integrity of the underlying coated surfaces. They serve as barriers between the extreme heat and the coated surfaces. They function as thermal barriers, preventing or slowing the transfer of heat to the underlying surfaces.
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Do not be facetious because you are losing the argument. All metals can be plated. Everyone is familiar with wear and tear on say copper plating, silver plating and chrome plating. Plating with heat retardant is no different. and I quoted these materials.
QUOTE
Heat-resistant coatings are designed to tolerate high or extreme temperatures without compromising the integrity of the underlying coated surfaces. They serve as barriers between the extreme heat and the coated surfaces. They function as thermal barriers, preventing or slowing the transfer of heat to the underlying surfaces.
Odd, don't you think, that an Aga which had its beginnings in the 1930's, and is in daily use, has never been in need of anything other than a yearly service.
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Odd, don't you think, that an Aga which had its beginnings in the 1930's, and is in daily use, has never been in need of anything other than a yearly service.
So they've not recommend changing the door handles due to wear and tear then Jane and heat resistant coating [HRC] as it's known loss?
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So they've not recommend changing the door handles due to wear and tear then Jane and heat resistant coating [HRC] as it's known loss?
Have just asked my partner, who's known it much longer than I. He says he doesn't believe such to be possible. Basically, he describes it as "a large block of iron which holds its heat".
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Have just asked my partner, who's known it much longer than I. He says he doesn't believe such to be possible. Basically, he describes it as "a large block of iron which holds its heat".
Thanks Jane, it's the same old story fresh evidence that proves..................BS. We know that the raid team all found Neville in the seated position and signed statements as such, we know that Liver Mortis was consistant with the position Neville was found in, not only that, Neville was still in situ at 1.15pm at WHF and hadn't been moved, this could mean nearly ten hours after death and Full Liver Mortis could possibly be established. We also know that, the top mark on Neville is consitant with an object that has an hollow centre, leaving the white/pale centre patch to Neville's skin unlike what the solid iron door knob would leave.
The more outlandish the claims, the worse it gets for Jeremy Bamber, June shot Sheila, the police shot June, Neville was moved from in front of the AGA to the chair [to burn materials] the police shot Sheila for a recoverable wound, a 410 shotgun was fired in the Kitchen.....................the BS is endless.
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Thanks Jane, it's the same old story fresh evidence that proves..................BS. We know that the raid team all found Neville in the seated position and signed statements as such, we know that Liver Mortis was consistant with the position Neville was found in, not only that, Neville was still in situ at 1.15pm at WHF and hadn't been moved, this could mean nearly ten hours after death and Full Liver Mortis could possibly be established. We also know that, the top mark on Neville is consitant with an object that has an hollow centre, leaving the white/pale centre patch to Neville's skin unlike what the solid iron door knob would leave.
The more outlandish the claims, the worse it gets for Jeremy Bamber, June shot Sheila, the police shot June, Neville was moved from in front of the AGA to the chair [to burn materials] the police shot Sheila for a recoverable wound, a 410 shotgun was fired in the Kitchen.....................the BS is endless.
A photo showing a handle where the plating has worn from constant use. Notice it is worn at the edge.
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Thanks Jane, it's the same old story fresh evidence that proves..................BS. We know that the raid team all found Neville in the seated position and signed statements as such, we know that Liver Mortis was consistant with the position Neville was found in, not only that, Neville was still in situ at 1.15pm at WHF and hadn't been moved, this could mean nearly ten hours after death and Full Liver Mortis could possibly be established. 1 We also know that, the top mark on Neville is consitant with an object that has an hollow centre, leaving the white/pale centre patch to Neville's skin unlike what the solid iron door knob would leave.
The more outlandish the claims, the worse it gets for Jeremy Bamber, 2 June shot Sheila, the police shot June, Neville was moved from in front of the AGA to the chair [to burn materials] the police shot Sheila for a recoverable wound, 3 a 410 shotgun was fired in the Kitchen.....................the BS is endless.
Talk about bullshit. 1 Since when have you been a forensic scientist to the extent you can make such claims. The so called hollow centre was more likely due to an area of contact where the Heat Retardant plating had not been eroded. 2 As far as I am aware nobody has claimed that June shot SC. 3 I only suggested I did not claim a 410 shotgun had been fired.
You misquote and mislead all the time. This is not the first time I have pointed out how you operate. You twist the facts to support your claims. You seem to have taken a leaf out of George's playbook. Is this a feature of guilt supporter posting.
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A photo showing a handle where the plating has worn from constant use. Notice it is worn at the edge.
Clearly a different model from ours. Other than the 3 inch chrome handle, which one would have to kneel on the floor to get a close look at, and which I'm told was to facilitate the removal of ash prior to conversion, the only other chrome fitting is the towel rail, which stands proud of the hotplates, which acts as a towel rail and guards against burns which might be incurred by touching the areas around the hotplates. It shows no discernible signs of wear.
As for the Bambers having their model rechromed? If you take a look at their kitchen, in general, and the minor chaos therein -typical of every rustic farmhouse kitchen I've visited- I very much doubt they'd have been too bothered about a bit of wear and tear on anything, which is true of "old money". It's the "nouveau riche" who turn such places into sterile, but 'upmarket' designer spaces.
Possibly the need to rechrome such a piffling area, the edge of a handle!! as is shown in your picture, is down to a mild case of OCD?
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Clearly a different model from ours. Other than the 3 inch chrome handle, which one would have to kneel on the floor to get a close look at, and which I'm told was to facilitate the removal of ash prior to conversion, the only other chrome fitting is the towel rail, which stands proud of the hotplates, which acts as a towel rail and guards against burns which might be incurred by touching the areas around the hotplates. It shows no discernible signs of wear.
As for the Bambers having their model rechromed? If you take a look at their kitchen, in general, and the minor chaos therein -typical of every rustic farmhouse kitchen I've visited- I very much doubt they'd have been too bothered about a bit of wear and tear on anything, which is true of "old money". It's the "nouveau riche" who turn such places into sterile, but 'upmarket' designer spaces.
Possibly the need to rechrome such a piffling area, the edge of a handle!! as is shown in your picture, is down to a mild case of OCD?
Why do you not stick to the facts. A completely useless post. The coating/plating on that AGA handle would not be chrome. It would be a heat retardant like those I quoted. No body has suggested that it should have been replated.
I strongly suggest that you go back to crystal ball gazing.
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Why do you not stick to the facts. A completely useless post. The coating/plating on that AGA handle would not be chrome. It would be a heat retardant like those I quoted. No body has suggested that it should have been replated.
I strongly suggest that you go back to crystal ball gazing.
No mention of heat retardant, it's just CHROME.
https://www.riversideranges.co.uk/shop-our-products/chrome-parts/aga-fire-door-t-handle-chrome-traditional-aga-ashpit-door/
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Why do you not stick to the facts. A completely useless post. The coating/plating on that AGA handle would not be chrome. It would be a heat retardant like those I quoted. No body has suggested that it should have been replated.
I strongly suggest that you go back to crystal ball gazing.
You really do take the need for oneupmanship to new heights! And let's be honest, whilst what I've said is fact, all you've got is theory!
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Talk about bullshit. 1 Since when have you been a forensic scientist to the extent you can make such claims. The so called hollow centre was more likely due to an area of contact where the Heat Retardant plating had not been eroded. 2 As far as I am aware nobody has claimed that June shot SC. 3 I only suggested I did not claim a 410 shotgun had been fired.
You misquote and mislead all the time. This is not the first time I have pointed out how you operate. You twist the facts to support your claims. You seem to have taken a leaf out of George's playbook. Is this a feature of guilt supporter posting.
Well BUBO BUBO, your Mr so called Expert Phillip Boyce made the same claim as me 12 years back, take alook at this video 3mins in.............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeLsEeE0zTI
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2 As far as I am aware nobody has claimed that June shot SC.
From BUBO........................To develop my thinking further I offer the following.
June was not trying to Kill SC, rather she was trying to stop her from beating NB. She says she will shoot but SC in her psychotic state ignores her. June fires the 410 and SC is hit at the margins of the spray dispersal and or by ricochet..................................Question ; Could June have summoned the ambulance at 06.09 because she had wounded SC.
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June was shot 5 times in bed. As the cartridges and bed sheets show.
This is not surprising as it was around 2am.
Bamber was not taking any chances as to whether she was dead or not later on. So fired shots 6 & 7.
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Well BUBO BUBO, your Mr so called Expert Phillip Boyce made the same claim as me 12 years back, take alook at this video 3mins in.............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeLsEeE0zTI
The issue of the burns was that the firing of the rifle did not create enough heat to cause the burns but if heated to 200c it could. The main thrust of the investigation was that the SM was not used when SC was shot. The matter of the burns was left unresolved. "It is not known how the rifle became that hot".
However there is another possibility irrespective of the base material or any plating.
Aga door handles can indeed get quite hot. If you’re experiencing excessive heat, it might be due to worn-out insulation or missing door washers. These washers help reduce heat transfer, so replacing them could improve efficiency.
Given Jane's suggestion about the lack of maintenance by the family in general this may indeed have caused the oval burn mark. Without a test as to which parts of the handle would get the hottest we cannot be certain but nevertheless it does not rule out the handle.
As well as the handle the door can become heated by other means as is shown here.
https://www.blakeandbull.co.uk/pages/how-to-replace-the-door-washers-on-an-aga-range-cooker
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From BUBO........................To develop my thinking further I offer the following.
June was not trying to Kill SC, rather she was trying to stop her from beating NB. She says she will shoot but SC in her psychotic state ignores her. June fires the 410 and SC is hit at the margins of the spray dispersal and or by ricochet..................................Question ; Could June have summoned the ambulance at 06.09 because she had wounded SC.
Clearly this was about some possibilities. I was only theorising not claiming. The warning shot was not aimed at her per se
Talk about bullshit. 1 Since when have you been a forensic scientist to the extent you can make such claims. The so called hollow centre was more likely due to an area of contact where the Heat Retardant plating had not been eroded. 2 As far as I am aware nobody has claimed that June shot SC. 3 I only suggested I did not claim a 410 shotgun had been fired.
You misquote and mislead all the time. This is not the first time I have pointed out how you operate. You twist the facts to support your claims. You seem to have taken a leaf out of George's playbook. Is this a feature of guilt supporter posting.
You prove my point about misquoting. I did not claim either of the points you raise as fact they were just hypothesising and that is clear from the full wording.
HB quote
The more outlandish the claims, the worse it gets for Jeremy Bamber, June shot Sheila, the police shot June, Neville was moved from in front of the AGA to the chair [to burn materials] the police shot Sheila for a recoverable wound, a 410 shotgun was fired in the Kitchen.....................the BS is endless.
[/quote]
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Wrong
My explanation is also valid and since the handle is convex and not concave your explanation falls. Metals can be coated with retardant materials as my quote shows. You just don't like my explanation.
You will never change stance even when presented with strong evidence.
So says Mr Oneupmanship! I hope posters have noted that they key word is "can", which is rather different from "are". Ours definitely does not have such coating, and I'll hazard a guess that the Bambers didn't either -although I rather wish it had because if the handles had been so 'treated', your 'theory is blown out of the water. Might it not also follow that if we wished to have such a coating, it would require the services of an Aga engineer. Re-chroming or applying "retardant materials"? It makes little difference.
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The issue of the burns was that the firing of the rifle did not create enough heat to cause the burns but if heated to 200c it could. The main thrust of the investigation was that the SM was not used when SC was shot. The matter of the burns was left unresolved. "It is not known how the rifle became that hot".
However there is another possibility irrespective of the base material or any plating.
Aga door handles can indeed get quite hot. If you’re experiencing excessive heat, it might be due to worn-out insulation or missing door washers. These washers help reduce heat transfer, so replacing them could improve efficiency.
Given Jane's suggestion about the lack of maintenance by the family in general this may indeed have caused the oval burn mark. Without a test as to which parts of the handle would get the hottest we cannot be certain but nevertheless it does not rule out the handle.
As well as the handle the door can become heated by other means as is shown here.
https://www.blakeandbull.co.uk/pages/how-to-replace-the-door-washers-on-an-aga-range-cooker
The only maintenance an Aga requires is a yearly service, and there's nothing to say the Bambers didn't. Are you just doing this to be Agamentative?
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Clearly this was about some possibilities. I was only theorising not claiming. The warning shot was not aimed at her per se
You prove my point about misquoting. I did not claim either of the points you raise as fact they were just hypothesising and that is clear from the full wording.
HB quote
The more outlandish the claims, the worse it gets for Jeremy Bamber, June shot Sheila, the police shot June, Neville was moved from in front of the AGA to the chair [to burn materials] the police shot Sheila for a recoverable wound, a 410 shotgun was fired in the Kitchen.....................the BS is endless.
In other words, your talking BULLSHIT like i claimed.
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So they've not recommend changing the door handles due to wear and tear then Jane and heat resistant coating [HRC] as it's known loss?
No, HB! And if it was considered to be important, for safety reasons, they'd send them out from the factory, already coated, wouldn't they?
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In other words, your talking BULLSHIT like i claimed.
Hypothesising is not bullshit but deliberately misquoting is.
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Hypothesising is not bullshit but deliberately misquoting is.
Did you not say "June fired the 402(?) and SC was hit"? Can you clarify why it is that your BS is labelled as hypothesis, whilst everyone else is claimed to have been "misquoting", lying, or talking BS?
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Did you not say "June fired the 402(?) and SC was hit"? Can you clarify why it is that your BS is labelled as hypothesis, whilst everyone else is claimed to have been "misquoting", lying, or talking BS?
It is clear from the whole text that I was hypothesising. Unlike guilt supporters I am willing to open my mind to alternative narratives. I agree with the CT.
"An untruthful and inaccurate scenario was then created by the police at a later stage in an attempt to implicate Jeremy Bamber"
Please give some examples. I strongly object to misquoting my position. I have asked the moderators on numerous occasions to reprimand Adam who is the worst offender. Incidentally Rob had a run in with him for the same reason. But I will if I am so minded, point out these misquotes and any posts which misrepresent the written facts as lies.
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It is clear from the whole text that I was hypothesising. Unlike guilt supporters I am willing to open my mind to alternative narratives. I agree with the CT.
"An untruthful and inaccurate scenario was then created by the police at a later stage in an attempt to implicate Jeremy Bamber"
Please give some examples. I strongly object to misquoting my position. I have asked the moderators on numerous occasions to reprimand Adam who is the worst offender. Incidentally Rob had a run in with him for the same reason. But I will if I am so minded, point out these misquotes and any posts which misrepresent the written facts as lies.
Mmm? Well, perhaps before constantly pointing the finger at other posters' perceived lack intelligence if they disagree with your 'claims' -if you don't believe me, you only have to read your posts- you might care care to look at yourself?
It seems to me that, if you feel backed into a corner, you claim hypothesis. However, rarely is such obvious in your posts which appear to be claiming fact.
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Mmm? Well, perhaps before constantly pointing the finger at other posters' perceived lack intelligence if they disagree with your 'claims' -if you don't believe me, you only have to read your posts- you might care care to look at yourself?
It seems to me that, if you feel backed into a corner, you claim hypothesis. However, rarely is such obvious in your posts which appear to be claiming fact.
You get the feeling BUBO is embarassed by their past claims, Bubo can call it whatever they want, i call it out for what it is.
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You get the feeling BUBO is embarassed by their past claims, Bubo can call it whatever they want, i call it out for what it is.
Who do you mean by 'their'. I do not agree wholeheartedly with the CT and from what they say without access to materials they have I have some reservations. As far as Boyce is concerned I think he has acted within the remit he was given and the facts that were available at that time.
As Maynard Keynes said
The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping from the old ones.
When the facts change I change my mind
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Who do you mean by 'their'. I do not agree wholeheartedly with the CT and from what they say without access to materials they have I have some reservations. As far as Boyce is concerned I think he has acted within the remit he was given and the facts that were available at that time.
As Maynard Keynes said
The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping from the old ones.
When the facts change I change my mind
Well first i don't know if your a man or a woman and second by saying THEIR i mean belonging to. Any ideas you put out there, you have to own them or say it's the usual BUBO LOCKS
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Who do you mean by 'their'. I do not agree wholeheartedly with the CT and from what they say without access to materials they have I have some reservations. As far as Boyce is concerned I think he has acted within the remit he was given and the facts that were available at that time.
As Maynard Keynes said
The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but in escaping from the old ones.
When the facts change I change my mind
Boyce has not Addressed who moved him and why, he hasn't took into Account the Police statements and he hasn't took into account the Patholigist report on Neville Bamber, he has just had his Palms crossed with more silver and produced a poorly made video going against his original claims.
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Mmm? Well, perhaps before constantly pointing the finger at other posters' perceived lack intelligence if they disagree with your 'claims' -if you don't believe me, you only have to read your posts- you might care care to look at yourself?
It seems to me that, if you feel backed into a corner, you claim hypothesis. However, rarely is such obvious in your posts which appear to be claiming fact.
Not true. I stand by my current theory and will defend it. If I make other claims I will say if its an hypothesis or use words like could, maybe, perhaps.
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Well first i don't know if your a man or a woman and second by saying THEIR i mean belonging to. Any ideas you put out there, you have to own them or say it's the usual BUBO LOCKS
“I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.” – Socrates
Do not make crude remarks.
Socrates also said. When the argument is lost the loser turns to slander
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“I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.” – Socrates
Do not make crude remarks.
Socrates also said. When the argument is lost the loser turns to slander
The bullshitter is neither on the side of the true or the side of the false. His eye is not on the FACTS at all. He does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no ATTENTION to it at all. By virtue of this, bullshit is a greater enemy of the TRUTH than lies are.
The Bullshitter......Mark on Aga = pellet = 410 used = June shot sheila with the 410
Bullshit...... to talk nonsense to especially with the intention of deceiving or misleading
BY HARDY BOY
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“I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.” – Socrates
Do not make crude remarks.
Socrates also said. When the argument is lost the loser turns to slander
Perhaps Socrates had a personality which was capable of putting things in a way which made people think? He admits to not being able to teach, but I very much doubt that he preached because such would have had the opposite effect on his listener/reader.
It's been my experience that when one's argument isn't going well! we very often resort to belittlement and derision of those who disagree.
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“I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.” – Socrates
Do not make crude remarks.
Socrates also said. When the argument is lost the loser turns to slander
You're comparing yourself to Socrates? ;D
As for your ... opps, sorry, Socrates 'other quote' - How many times have you called Adam names?
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You're comparing yourself to Socrates? ;D
As for your ... opps, sorry, Socrates 'other quote' - How many times have you called Adam names?
That is a stupid response. I am merely stating his thinking and his understanding of the human condition.
Quote
If you want to be wrong follow the masses.
To find yourself think for yourself
Lies are the greatest murder. They kill the truth.
I notice you did not charge me for quoting Maynard Keynes.