Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: lookout on September 03, 2016, 10:49:PM
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A handwritten note was found by police on the bedside table in Sheila's bedroom on either the 7th or the 8th of August 1985.
Reference to this had been entered in the exhibit list but the officer who found it had failed to include reference to it in his statement.
When the note re-emerged it was given to " Taff " Jones,but when under the supervision of another senior officer it was filed away and marked illegible.
It appears that this note/letter and its contents had been written during the killing and also while waiting for the police to arrive. The notes/letters are quite lengthy and addressed to " Mummy " ( Christine ) as being referred to as a blood relative in the letter. June was described as " Mother " in the letter.
There's also a number of angry references to her ex-husband,Colin Caffell'
Sheila had also indicated that she'd be in " the other world after the police arrive " and she'd gone on to say " my babys-sic- and me go to our rest ".
Then she speaks of " us " the family " going into a deep trench " after the police arrive.
Further reference spoke about " digging deep and a lot of blood will come out ".
A preliminary overview of material handed to an expert in handwriting believes the material was written in the hand of Sheila Caffell.
A secondary report by a Forensic Psychologist could be commissioned on the letter's content to shed light on the state of mind of Sheila,with the result/confirmation that the thoughts which were written down indicates that Sheila killed the family then took her own life.
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A handwritten note was found by police on the bedside table in Sheila's bedroom on either the 7th or the 8th of August 1985.
Reference to this had been entered in the exhibit list but the officer who found it had failed to include reference to it in his statement.
When the note re-emerged it was given to " Taff " Jones,but when under the supervision of another senior officer it was filed away and marked illegible.
It appears that this note/letter and its contents had been written during the killing and also while waiting for the police to arrive. The notes/letters are quite lengthy and addressed to " Mummy " ( Christine ) as being referred to as a blood relative in the letter. June was described as " Mother " in the letter.
There's also a number of angry references to her ex-husband,Colin Caffell'
Sheila had also indicated that she'd be in " the other world after the police arrive " and she'd gone on to say " my babys-sic- and me go to our rest ".
Then she speaks of " us " the family " going into a deep trench " after the police arrive.
Further reference spoke about " digging deep and a lot of blood will come out ".
A preliminary overview of material handed to an expert in handwriting believes the material was written in the hand of Sheila Caffell.
A secondary report by a Forensic Psychologist could be commissioned on the letter's content to shed light on the state of mind of Sheila,with the result/confirmation that the thoughts which were written down indicates that Sheila killed the family then took her own life.
:)) :))
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What's so funny ?
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A handwritten note was found by police on the bedside table in Sheila's bedroom on either the 7th or the 8th of August 1985.
Reference to this had been entered in the exhibit list but the officer who found it had failed to include reference to it in his statement.
When the note re-emerged it was given to " Taff " Jones,but when under the supervision of another senior officer it was filed away and marked illegible.
It appears that this note/letter and its contents had been written during the killing and also while waiting for the police to arrive. The notes/letters are quite lengthy and addressed to " Mummy " ( Christine ) as being referred to as a blood relative in the letter. June was described as " Mother " in the letter.
There's also a number of angry references to her ex-husband,Colin Caffell'
Sheila had also indicated that she'd be in " the other world after the police arrive " and she'd gone on to say " my babys-sic- and me go to our rest ".
Then she speaks of " us " the family " going into a deep trench " after the police arrive.
Further reference spoke about " digging deep and a lot of blood will come out ".
A preliminary overview of material handed to an expert in handwriting believes the material was written in the hand of Sheila Caffell.
A secondary report by a Forensic Psychologist could be commissioned on the letter's content to shed light on the state of mind of Sheila,with the result/confirmation that the thoughts which were written down indicates that Sheila killed the family then took her own life.
Don't get me wrong lookout and I'm not for one moment doubting that you have a source, but none of this was made available to the numerous authors of the books on the case and it would be explosive material were it ever to be published.
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If a suicide note had been found, the police would have told the relatives when the relatives raised suspicions about Jeremy.
I thought the 'note' inside the bible was the suicide note? That is what has been claimed for a good while now.
Pure fantasy that any suicide note was found.
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What's so funny ?
sorry lookout it was a mistake .ive been on the scotch.i meant to put smiles :)
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If a suicide note had been found, the police would have told the relatives when the relatives raised suspicions about Jeremy.
I thought the 'note' inside the bible was the suicide note? That is what has been claimed for a good while now.
Pure fantasy that any suicide note was found.
There was also Sheila's diary entry "I didn't mean to be horrible to Jeremy.". Snippets have been alluded to but if something more substantial does exist it's all been brushed under the carpet.
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A handwritten note was found by police on the bedside table in Sheila's bedroom on either the 7th or the 8th of August 1985.
Reference to this had been entered in the exhibit list but the officer who found it had failed to include reference to it in his statement.
When the note re-emerged it was given to " Taff " Jones,but when under the supervision of another senior officer it was filed away and marked illegible.
It appears that this note/letter and its contents had been written during the killing and also while waiting for the police to arrive. The notes/letters are quite lengthy and addressed to " Mummy " ( Christine ) as being referred to as a blood relative in the letter. June was described as " Mother " in the letter.
There's also a number of angry references to her ex-husband,Colin Caffell'
Sheila had also indicated that she'd be in " the other world after the police arrive " and she'd gone on to say " my babys-sic- and me go to our rest ".
Then she speaks of " us " the family " going into a deep trench " after the police arrive.
Further reference spoke about " digging deep and a lot of blood will come out ".
A preliminary overview of material handed to an expert in handwriting believes the material was written in the hand of Sheila Caffell.
A secondary report by a Forensic Psychologist could be commissioned on the letter's content to shed light on the state of mind of Sheila,with the result/confirmation that the thoughts which were written down indicates that Sheila killed the family then took her own life.
Where is this from Lookout?
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Don't get me wrong lookout and I'm not for one moment doubting that you have a source, but none of this was made available to the numerous authors of the books on the case and it would be explosive material were it ever to be published.
Steve,I've just said on Roch's thread that I made re-written/deciphered copies of the said letters.The thread is on the forum somewhere unless it's been deleted. There were loads of references to " mummy " and it begins " Mummy Darling ". There's all kinds of gobble-de-gook but I'd managed to try and work it out. It mentions police and also the Sun newspaper,reporting the said crime. Pretty jumbled.
I remember the poster,tyler,saying she didn't think there was any significance,but it did remain to puzzle me.
Just remembered what tyler said and that JB had said it wasn't Sheila's writing.
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Where is this from Lookout?
peterpan i think
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Where is this from Lookout?
give you one guess Caroline,
We need to raise £1,530 in 28 days to pay for a forensic report on a series of handwritten pages by Sheila Caffell found at the scene. We believe this is a suicide letter.
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Where is this from Lookout?
The CT. I could have told them this 3/4 years ago.
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give you one guess Caroline,
We need to raise £1,530 in 28 days to pay for a forensic report on a series of handwritten pages by Sheila Caffell found at the scene. We believe this is a suicide letter.
If it's a suicide letter, why do they need it tested, it should say something like "couldn't go one, killed everyone ect etc."
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The CT. I could have told them this 3/4 years ago.
I remember that thing you're talking about and it wasn't a suicide not from Sheila or even from Sheila.
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if taffy was given such a letter he would not have let it out of his sight and jb would not be where he is today :)
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If it's a suicide letter, why do they need it tested, it should say something like "couldn't go one, killed everyone ect etc."
Why should it say what you think it should have said ? They don't always you know.It wasn't a film,it was the real thing.
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I remember that thing you're talking about and it wasn't a suicide not from Sheila or even from Sheila.
Is it a passage from the Bible people are talking about? http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/sheila-s-suicide-note
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if taffy was given such a letter he would not have let it out of his sight and jb would not be where he is today :)
Nobody could read or understand the damn thing. Illegible is what was said !!
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Nobody could read or understand the damn thing. Illegible is what was said !!
so what makes them claim it was a suicide not.it could be a shopping list :))
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If it's a suicide letter, why do they need it tested, it should say something like "couldn't go one, killed everyone ect etc."
Get the feeling that this will be the most ambiguous suicide note of all time?
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Is it a passage from the Bible people are talking about? http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/sheila-s-suicide-note
No Steve,this is different altogether. There aren't any Bible quotes in these notes/letters.
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Get the feeling that this will be the most ambiguous suicide note of all time?
Forget it then,eh ?
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i think justice has summed it up it was a money making ploy.a bit of fleecing :)
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Say for instance it was a note in Sheila's handwriting....what' not to say JB made her write it before murdering her, so pointing suspicion on Sheila.
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Say for instance it was a note in Sheila's handwriting....what' not to say JB made her write it before murdering her, so pointing suspicion on Sheila.
That's interesting Romeo but I don't think she was in any state to do anything at 2:00am in the morning.
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Say for instance it was a note in Sheila's handwriting....what' not to say JB made her write it before murdering her, so pointing suspicion on Sheila.
blimey now yor saying he had enough time to sit over shiela and make her write pages and pages of rambling suicide notes. I do t think so!
Lookout are you saying these notes were available 3/4 years ago but the ct have only just been given them? I am very confused?
Can someone explain the story regarding these letters so i can get to grips with it thanks.
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That's interesting Romeo but I don't think she was in any state to do anything at 2:00am in the morning.
The excerpts of alleged content provided doesn't really match something that would be dictated by an aggressor.
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blimey now yor saying he had enough time to sit over shiela and make her write pages and pages of rambling suicide notes. I do t think so!
Lookout are you saying these notes were available 3/4 years ago but the ct have only just been given them? I am very confused?
Can someone explain the story regarding these letters so i can get to grips with it thanks.
Were these notes hidden from the defense? I understand theyhad them, so whatschanged? Is it the ct deciding that they need to look into this further or is it jbs lawyers using the ct to raise thd funds. Were ghese notes andwhat was written in thdm e er form part of an appeal.
Sorry for all the questions buf if this really is a suicide note and a police officer handed them in butthey were omitted from trial evidence that is really dodgy imo.
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Were these notes hidden from the defense? I understand theyhad them, so whatschanged? Is it the ct deciding that they need to look into this further or is it jbs lawyers using the ct to raise thd funds. Were ghese notes andwhat was written in thdm e er form part of an appeal.
Sorry for all the questions buf if this really is a suicide note and a police officer handed them in butthey were omitted from trial evidence that is really dodgy imo.
Google Jeremy Bamber and then click on the link for official website
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Google Jeremy Bamber and then click on the link for official website
[/quote
ive read what it says on the ct website but im still confused
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blimey now yor saying he had enough time to sit over shiela and make her write pages and pages of rambling suicide notes. I do t think so!
I don't believe the suicide note story anyway.....they are just after more people paying up within 28 days! But, surmising there was a note in Sheila's handwriting...... when do you think she wrote it then? Before, after, or during the murders, because as you say it would take ages to write pages and pages of rambling suicide notes...or don't you believe it either.
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I don't believe the suicide note story anyway.....they are just after more people paying up within 28 days! But, surmising there was a note in Sheila's handwriting...... when do you think she wrote it then? Before, after, or during the murders, because as you say it would take ages to write pages and pages of rambling suicide notes...or don't you believe it either.
well she could of wrote it after she had killed everyone else couldnt she but where is the pen with blood stains on it. She had the time i would think but certainly jb wouldnt have.unless she wrote it all before she killed everyone then there wouldnt be any evidence on this pen would there.
However if what is being said about her and her children going to rest etc then imo it blows a big hole in sc innocence.
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Google Jeremy Bamber and then click on the link for official website
ive read what it says on the ct website but im still confused
Reading between the lines. Police came to be in possession of handwritten notes, which they then shelved, either because they were illegible or because they didn't support the prosecution of Jeremy Bamber. The campaign team are claiming that the content of these notes only became available some time after the 2002 appeal. For some reason, despite having been in the hands of official campaigners since 2011, only now in 2016 is the content within being focused upon for forensic testing.
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Reading between the lines. Police came to be in possession of handwritten notes, which they then shelved, either because they were illegible or because they didn't support the prosecution of Jeremy Bamber. The campaign team are claiming that the content of these notes only became available some time after the 2002 appeal. For some reason, despite having been in the hands of official campaigners since 2011, only now in 2016 is the content within being focused upon for forensic testing.
oh ok it was the timings i couldnt get my head around. But thanks i get it now.
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Say for instance it was a note in Sheila's handwriting....what's not to say JB made her write it before murdering her, so pointing suspicion on Sheila.
He's never brought it up at trial or appeal.
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He's never brought it up at trial or appeal.
I think the point may be that this is evidence which has been concealed from the Defence.
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He's never brought it up at trial or appeal.
do we know if there has ever been reference to these notes in any of the photographs
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The OS says the suicide note was rather weirdly in Junes bible.
Anyway, I look forward to the source for this.
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blimey now yor saying he had enough time to sit over shiela and make her write pages and pages of rambling suicide notes. I do t think so!
Lookout are you saying these notes were available 3/4 years ago but the ct have only just been given them? I am very confused?
Can someone explain the story regarding these letters so i can get to grips with it thanks.
we dont know for sure how much time he had or took.but thanks to caroline for catching him out on the wallet we know he was in no hurry.he accused ep of stealing neville's wallet with the money inside
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Say for instance it was a note in Sheila's handwriting....what' not to say JB made her write it before murdering her, so pointing suspicion on Sheila.
Romeo,JB has seen the letter/notes and said it wasn't Sheila's writing. Neither did he admit it was his own,so that theory is blown out of the water.
Scribbled notes were left/placed all around the farmhouse in an " odd " sort of a way,now who had been responsible for this ? Not JB I'm sure. I honestly don't think that he'd realised just how desperately ill Sheila was as by writing her thoughts and leaving them around the place was the only way of expressing how she'd felt.
What JB wouldn't have known or realised at the time is that when the mind is affected so is the handwriting reflecting the state of the mind.
In my lifetime, knew of two people who left notes in various areas of either the workplace or the home. The letters/notes had reflected their feelings and were easier to put on paper than face up to whom the notes were intended for.
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Romeo,JB has seen the letter/notes and said it wasn't Sheila's writing. Neither did he admit it was his own,so that theory is blown out of the water.
Scribbled notes were left/placed all around the farmhouse in an " odd " sort of a way,now who had been responsible for this ? Not JB I'm sure. I honestly don't think that he'd realised just how desperately ill Sheila was as by writing her thoughts and leaving them around the place was the only way of expressing how she'd felt.
What JB wouldn't have known or realised at the time is that when the mind is affected so is the handwriting reflecting the state of the mind.
In my lifetime, knew of two people who left notes in various areas of either the workplace or the home. The letters/notes had reflected their feelings and were easier to put on paper than face up to whom the notes were intended for.
crispy could have written them,but on a serious note did she only start this habit that night or morning because no one mentions her doing it before ,iam sure she must have been through these episodes before but no mention of excessive note writing :)
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The letters that I'd copied,because I thought,or knew they were relevant,are " creepy " in a way as they give you a feel for how the writers mind was at the time,spoken in past,present and future tense and I felt that they were a significant enough clue in what had happened that night without the need for further investigating.
They were very telling and if someone from EP had taken the trouble to decipher the letter,then there'd have been no case to answer.
I'm now thinking it was Jan who I'd pm'd about feeling uneasy about the letters. I know I'd mentioned it to someone.
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crispy could have written them,but on a serious note did she only start this habit that night or morning because no one mentions her doing it before ,iam sure she must have been through these episodes before but no mention of excessive note writing :)
Don't you think it odd that when Sheila wrote to AE from her hospital bed saying that " no longer were the CIA after her as she'd joined the CND ?"
It's on this forum that little scraps of paper with notes of sorts were written on them. The writer of the notes could possibly have been June as she lived there and when Sheila had been due a visit,they'd be there in various localities,quite possibly Biblical in tone preaching morality etc. June was a depressive too don't forget.
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It was actually 12 months last May that I mentioned this letter," The meeting with the Sun newspaper ",the named thread on here,but when or where it was first seen,I'm not sure.
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I think the point may be that this is evidence which has been concealed from the Defence.
It was concealed Steve. Simply because nobody took the time to study it or have it deciphered by a handwriting expert. It had been filed away and forgotten about.
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These notes dotted around the house were June's "phylacteries", according to Roger Wilkes.
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These notes dotted around the house were June's "phylacteries", according to Roger Wilkes.
Thanks Steve,supposedly meaning Biblical scriptures ? Or similar. I knew I'd read about this foible of hers.
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Also in the notes was the number 3-------describing the 3 of them,mother and twins. Then a birth date-3.3.57.
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Did anyone ever get to the bottom of the capital letters and numbers written on a scrap of paper in what looked like black felt pen?
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I don't suppose so Steve. The number 3 had been significant on there too. It should be matched up with the handwritten note/s,of which there appears to be more than I'd copied.
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Are you talking about this Lookout?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5372.msg233732.html#msg233732
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Just read the OS on this subject and they are talking about this note.
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Are you talking about this Lookout?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5372.msg233732.html#msg233732
Yes,that's the one,but seemingly there's more.
Thanks for that Caroline.
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Thanks Caroline, it bought me up to date on the notes.
Lookout, you certainly put some time into trying to decipher the words.....well done you!
time to have a look at them myself now! ::)
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Hartley is very knowledgeable about this, perhaps he will give his opinion.
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The letter ends with a plea to help comfort her mother as her strength is slipping and she,Sheila will be unable to give help in another world. Help her please were the last words.
Is that signature,Bambi ?
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These notes dotted around the house were June's "phylacteries", according to Roger Wilkes.
so they have nothing to do with sheila or the crime
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These notes dotted around the house were June's "phylacteries", according to Roger Wilkes.
There have been many authors who give there spin on things. None have any more knowledge than you or me.
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Which begs the question,did NONE of these authors wish/want to be right in their estimations of " who'd done it ?" All non-committal-------------which is the safest bet when you're an author,but if it's about the same crime,then they're all going to be similarly written,so what's the point ?
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Just trying to sell books Lookout.
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Which begs the question,did NONE of these authors wish/want to be right in their estimations of " who'd done it ?" All non-committal-------------which is the safest bet when you're an author,but if it's about the same crime,then they're all going to be similarly written,so what's the point ?
Well to be fair to them they couldn't examine evidence which wasn't in the public domain.
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Well to be fair to them they couldn't examine evidence which wasn't in the public domain.
Granted,but shouldn't at least one have waited ? The books would then have appeared less biased towards guilt.
I'm not sure but I heard that Scott Lomax was writing another book which could quite possibly be on more up to date material as he himself will be more knowledgeable about recent findings that have come to light.
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The letter ends with a plea to help comfort her mother as her strength is slipping and she,Sheila will be unable to give help in another world. Help her please were the last words.
Is that signature,Bambi ?
The manic writing on page 2 looks like
“To make it look like he is such a good man when all the time his is NO GOOD, NO GOOD, Of course he can make himself look good to the …..”
The next part looks like
“ex husband of mine HOW DARE HE SAY NOT TO BUY MY SONS”
Can't make the next bit out but it goes on to say;
“Oh so sorry mummy, here I go again getting angry but he never was any good” :o
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Could we have the links again please? Does anyone know whether it is for sure Sheila's handwriting?
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Could we have the links again please? Does anyone know whether it is for sure Sheila's handwriting?
Bumped up the original thread.
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The notes could have well been written by June. She had opened her home and heart to two children.
What a disappointment they must have been for her. They must have appeared to be so ungrateful.
One was behaving like the village bike, the other had only his interests at heart.
The poor woman must have felt like a failure, no wonder she turned to religion
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I'm still following bits that I haven't seen,such as---" so please get investigating this you will --- more than you ever bargained for.
My mother was brought up by the Law,she has lived by it all of her life.Please help her ."
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There is no suicide note.
The CT are just trying to create publicity. And get some money.
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You may be right Adam, but I am not convinced.
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The notes could have well been written by June. She had opened her home and heart to two children.
What a disappointment they must have been for her. They must have appeared to be so ungrateful.
One was behaving like the village bike, the other had only his interests at heart.
The poor woman must have felt like a failure, no wonder she turned to religion
Handwriting of both females will have to be scrutinised I imagine. Especially as JB hadn't recognised the writing being from Sheila's hand------although the girl clearly wouldn't have been in her right mind which would have affected her writing,like that of a drunk who's lost all control.
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There is no suicide note.
The CT are just trying to create publicity. And get some money.
Of course they are. Why 28 days to raise the funds? They want to create a quick buzz, knowing that this will fool no one but supporters... but that is okay that is who they want the money from. Anyone funding the CT need help.
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Did anyone ever get to the bottom of the capital letters and numbers written on a scrap of paper in what looked like black felt pen?
There were pleas on that piece of paper too----------Please Please Please,3 times. In the letter she's pleading for her mother as the realisation of what she's done partly sinks in.
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And it's costing over £,1500 to sort this out ? I'd do it for nothing !
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Of course they are. Why 28 days to raise the funds? They want to create a quick buzz, knowing that this will fool no one but supporters... but that is okay that is who they want the money from. Anyone funding the CT need help.
Seems a scam to me Mat.
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Seems a scam to me Mat.
That " scam " was in police hands because nobody could make head nor tail of it ( the writing ) That's not to say it still wasn't an exhibit,it was,but was filed away and now that it's getting an airing------nobody believes it and is calling it a scam. It's got an exhibit number. I give up !!
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That " scam " was in police hands because nobody could make head nor tail of it ( the writing ) That's not to say it still wasn't an exhibit,it was,but was filed away and now that it's getting an airing------nobody believes it and is calling it a scam. It's got an exhibit number. I give up !!
No Lookout, not the writing, but the appeal for money. :)
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No Lookout, not the writing, but the appeal for money. :)
Okay,I've just realised that. The charges from Forensic teams are obscene,it's not the fault of CT as they're a non-profit organisation. Though the guilters would have us all believe that CT are raking it in. ::)
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You should see the astronomical charges that investigators,etc charge for dealing with this ! Now that IS a scam !
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Okay,I've just realised that. The charges from Forensic teams are obscene,it's not the fault of CT as they're a non-profit organisation. Though the guilters would have us all believe that CT are raking it in. ::)
Forensic teams. ;D The mere thought that the CT are asking for MONEY for forensic tests on these letters is abysmal...... What can they find ? Nothing. Nothing can come of forensic tests on decades old letters. The only point in the whole thing is to get more money.
and don't forget it's urgent. They need it within 28 days. ;D
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Forensic teams. ;D The mere thought that the CT are asking for MONEY for forensic tests on these letters is abysmal...... What can they find ? Nothing. Nothing can come of forensic tests on decades old letters. The only point in the whole thing is to get more money.
and don't forget it's urgent. They need it within 28 days. ;D
Why? Does it turn into pumpkin after 28 days.
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Forensic teams. ;D The mere thought that the CT are asking for MONEY for forensic tests on these letters is abysmal...... What can they find ? Nothing. Nothing can come of forensic tests on decades old letters. The only point in the whole thing is to get more money.
and don't forget it's urgent. They need it within 28 days. ;D
Wonder what's happened to all profits from pen sales? ;)
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Forensic teams. ;D The mere thought that the CT are asking for MONEY for forensic tests on these letters is abysmal...... What can they find ? Nothing. Nothing can come of forensic tests on decades old letters. The only point in the whole thing is to get more money.
and don't forget it's urgent. They need it within 28 days. ;D
You'd be surprised at what cold cases can throw up years later. Men have been released on " old information " being " found ".
CT will make nothing,they wouldn't be allowed to run the business as a profitable organisation which I'm sure they'll have gone into through Trudi's husband being a company director for a number of years.
Then again,there's a big difference in there being a slim chance or no chance at all to Wishing and Hoping that JB doesn't have a chance ! I rather feel it's the latter with most,sounds that way to me.
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Forensic teams. ;D The mere thought that the CT are asking for MONEY for forensic tests on these letters is abysmal...... What can they find ? Nothing. Nothing can come of forensic tests on decades old letters. The only point in the whole thing is to get more money.
and don't forget it's urgent. They need it within 28 days. ;D
Even if Sheila did write the letters (and I actually think she probably did), so what? They don't mention murdering the family, they seem to be a rant about Colin - in fact, she is asking for her 'mother' to be cared for. She wouldn't be asking that if she had just shot her. She makes no mention of her father or the twins in the past tense and the phone number isn't even an Essex number. They could have been written anytime.
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Wonder what's happened to all profits from pen sales? ;)
It will have been ploughed into the coffers of paying a QC,barrister,solicitor,prison official,forensics et al.
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It will have been ploughed into the coffers of paying a QC,barrister,solicitor,prison official,forensics et al.
i dont think prison officials will be taking jb's or ct's money.
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It will have been ploughed into the coffers of paying a QC,barrister,solicitor,prison official,forensics et al.
Oh, sorry Lookout I thought they were doing it Pro Bono?
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Even if Sheila did write the letters (and I actually think she probably did), so what? They don't mention murdering the family, they seem to be a rant about Colin - in fact, she is asking for her 'mother' to be cared for. She wouldn't be asking that if she had just shot her. She makes no mention of her father or the twins in the past tense and the phone number isn't even an Essex number. They could have been written anytime.
They don't have to mention murder for in Sheila's mind she was sending them to a better place.Sheila had already spoken to Ferguson about killing and even he hadn't taken that threat as real ::) Her reason for being concerned about her mother stems from her mind being jolted into reality as she saw her in the bedroom beneath the light and would have shown dreadful fear at what she'd done.
The phone number is immaterial and probably didn't mean anything to Sheila at the time,but it had been tried by a past member who just got the unobtainable tone.
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Why? Does it turn into pumpkin after 28 days.
I think after 28 days...the suicide note turns back into a letter. ;D
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i dont think prison officials will be taking jb's or ct's money.
It's someone who works on behalf of prisoners.
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I think after 28 days...the suicide note turns back into a letter. ;D
Of the suicide type.
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Of the suicide type.
How is that a suicide note?
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It's someone who works on behalf of prisoners.
but if that someone also works for the prison service they wouldnt be allowed to take money .it would be taken as a bribe if they were a prison official :)
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How is that a suicide note?
i agree.the title of this thread is misleading.nothing in them notes mentions suicide
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How is that a suicide note?
It depends how you interpret it. Because it's garbled it would indicate that Sheila wasn't in her right mind.It was hurried,mixed up and a desperate call for help. Had it been written the day before,the housekeeper would have seen it or the other nosy one who gets things wrong-----on purpose.
A suicide note doesn't have to contain the fact that someone is about to kill or take their own lives.
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It depends how you interpret it. Because it's garbled it would indicate that Sheila wasn't in her right mind.It was hurried,mixed up and a desperate call for help. Had it been written the day before,the housekeeper would have seen it or the other nosy one who gets things wrong-----on purpose.
A suicide note doesn't have to contain the fact that someone is about to kill or take their own lives.
well how can you call it a suicide note if it doesnt contain the above
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I know something, don't ring that number at the end, I've just bought 3 pens and a mug and a JB t shirt. :o :-X :-X
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I know something, don't ring that number at the end, I've just bought 3 pens and a mug and a JB tea shirt. :o :-X :-X
I wonder what a JB t shirt would actually look like?
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well how can you call it a suicide note if it doesnt contain the above
You've obviously not taken the trouble to read the letter, though IF you have,you won't have used your imagination as one paragraph mentions " police from Chelmsford",which could be taken that she'd overheard her father ringing them up,but I don't expect you or others to go into that.
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You've obviously not taken the trouble to read the letter, though IF you have,you won't have used your imagination as one paragraph mentions " police from Chelmsford",which could be taken that she'd overheard her father ringing them up,but I don't expect you or others to go into that.
no your right ive not read them cause i cant make head nor tail of them.but thats a big leap to suggest because chelmsford and police are mentioned it means she heard neville ring them :)
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no your right ive not read them cause i cant make head nor tail of them.but thats a big leap to suggest because chelmsford and police are mentioned it means she heard neville ring them :)
So where's the harm in putting two and two together ? You do it to suit yourself don't you ?
You're bound to be dismissive of everything that involves JB's innocence. It's human nature when others do it too !
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So where's the harm in putting two and two together ? You do it to suit yourself don't you ?
You're bound to be dismissive of everything that involves JB's innocence. It's human nature when others do it too !
no harm in putting 2 n 2 together as long as one comes up with 4
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One thing it does show is that whoever wrote those notes was very very poorly.
It is amazing what handwriting experts can achieve nowadays. I couldnt make head nor tail of it but i suspect they could.
I really dont see why it bothers guilters so much that the ct do whatever they can for jb, i find it disturbing behaviour of us supposedly intelligent debators that we have to resort to slagging off the c.t. there really isnt any need for it as it will probably turn out to be of non evidential value anyway.
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I know something, don't ring that number at the end, I've just bought 3 pens and a mug and a JB t shirt. :o :-X :-X
:)) :)) sounds like a master fleecing operation justice
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:)) :)) sounds like a master fleecing operation justice
Gawd,you're so stupid.
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Gawd,you're so stupid.
thank you lookout thats something we both have in common ;) :)
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:)) :)) sounds like a master fleecing operation justice
Quite right Sami, Stock market floatations next?
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This article is in todays Express.
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/707781/Jeremy-Bamber-supporters-claim-police-ignored-sister-suicide-note-white-farm-essex
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/707781/Jeremy-Bamber-supporters-claim-police-ignored-sister-suicide-note-white-farm-essex
Brilliant. Thanks Mat.
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jb's spokesman talking rubbish as usual .theres no evidence sheila was violent.end of story
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jb's spokesman talking rubbish as usual .theres no evidence sheila was violent.end of story
They speak about burn marks on the twins. :-\
Shame on the express for a few points in that article. Why didn't the express post the letters? They do know that they have been readily available online for a long time now.
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There'll be more---------------sit tight.
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There'll be more---------------sit tight.
Lookout, the article means nothing. It is the CT saying "WE THINK". What would that testing do to undermine any of the evidence the CCRC believe in and have upheld? Nothing. You get excited time and time again whenever you see Bambers name in the press because you think it means something and that something is happening. You've been doing this for years now.
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They speak about burn marks on the twins. :-\
Shame on the express for a few points in that article. Why didn't the express post the letters? They do know that they have been readily available online for a long time now.
There translation is rubbish. They suggest that one part states "“dig down deep and a lot of blood will come out.”
There is no way that word is 'blood' - it is difficult to read but that word is one of the easiest and it says DIRT!
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so far we have seen in the tabloids blood flowing from sheilas wounds,sheilas feet with blood on them,and now this.when will it stop ,for the familys sake
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There translation is rubbish. They suggest that one part states "“dig down deep and a lot of blood will come out.”
There is no way that word is 'blood' - it is difficult to read but that word is one of the easiest and it says DIRT!
" Blood coming out " is in another paragraph.
They need me to translate it not two-bit forensics. Experience before expertise every time.
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" Blood coming out " is in another paragraph.
They need me to translate it not two-bit forensics. Experience before expertise every time.
Where does it say that? I've looked at all of it and it says nothing of the sort.
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" Blood coming out " is in another paragraph.
They need me to translate it not two-bit forensics. Experience before expertise every time.
I don't recall reading that configuration of words anywhere it that letter.
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I don't recall reading that configuration of words anywhere it that letter.
I'll refer to the oracle,just a minute.
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I'll refer to the oracle,just a minute.
and not earth dirt.
" digging deep and a lot of blood will come out "-------must be another part to the letter/notes as CT did say it was a long letter. I've only got part of it obviously which refers to digging the dirt as in a scandal,which carries on to say that" the public will know that my Darling Mummy will !"
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and not earth dirt.
" digging deep and a lot of blood will come out "-------must be another part to the letter/notes as CT did say it was a long letter. I've only got part of it obviously which refers to digging the dirt as in a scandal,which carries on to say that" the public will know that my Darling Mummy will !"
Ha, ha! So she wrote the same line in ANOTHER letter (not available to read - of course) only she swapped 'dirt' for 'blood'? Rather convenient don't you think? It's the same letter and the word is DIRT.
Also, who puts a phone number on a suicide note? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ha, ha! So she wrote the same line in ANOTHER letter (not available to read - of course) only she swapped 'dirt' for 'blood'? Rather convenient don't you think? It's the same letter and the word is DIRT.
Also, who puts a phone number on a suicide note? ;D ;D ;D ;D
And who, living in the Ross On Wye area, can we stick what on to? We could weave a wonderful story here, couldn't we? ;)
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And who, living in the Ross On Wye area, can we stick what on to? We could weave a wonderful story here, couldn't we? ;)
I'm sure it will happen.
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And who, living in the Ross On Wye area, can we stick what on to? We could weave a wonderful story here, couldn't we? ;)
i think its similar to lookouts other post ,where sheila hears neville saying chelmsford police and writes it down in a letter
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I'm sure it will happen.
i think its similar to lookouts other post ,where sheila hears neville saying chelmsford police and writes it down in a letter
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ha, ha! So she wrote the same line in ANOTHER letter (not available to read - of course) only she swapped 'dirt' for 'blood'? Rather convenient don't you think? It's the same letter and the word is DIRT.
Also, who puts a phone number on a suicide note? ;D ;D ;D ;D---------someone who's crackers. :)) :)) :))
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I'm beginning to think that Sheila wasn't half as sick as some on here !!
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I'm beginning to think that Sheila wasn't half as sick as some on here !!
You're the one who keeps labouring the point of how sick you believe she was.
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the title of the topic is misleading.how many suicide notes were there cause ive never heard of anybody leaving more than'1' :)
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You're the one who keeps labouring the point of how sick you believe she was.
Deranged I'd have said,exacerbated by the unnecessary cocktail of drugs that caused her to be so.
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the title of the topic is misleading.how many suicide notes were there cause ive never heard of anybody leaving more than'1' :)
Well she could have been influenced by her mother, who left the same phylacteries scattered around the house, the psychiatric phenomenon folie a deux springing to mind.
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Well she could have been influenced by her mother, who left the same phylacteries scattered around the house, the psychiatric phenomenon folie a deux springing to mind.
i dont know steve ,did june write suicide notes
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Well she'd been controlled by her mother in her short life so all her jumbled and garbled thoughts would have been hastily written and as the letter states quite clearly that the Police and the Sun newspaper will learn of the tragedy ( messy business ). This is what Sheila was trying to say. So so sad.
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i dont know steve ,did june write suicide notes
No only notes with religious messages dotted around the house, and I don't think this is a suicide note either. Sheila was far too tired to write that last night.
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Well she'd been controlled by her mother in her short life so all her jumbled and garbled thoughts would have been hastily written and as the letter states quite clearly that the Police and the Sun newspaper will learn of the tragedy ( messy business ). This is what Sheila was trying to say. So so sad.
She speaks well of her mother in all those letters. Are you translating letter we haven't see? ;D ;D ;D
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I find it more than feasible for it being a suicide letter,from one who'd been afraid of speaking out and who'd told everyone she befriended that " she didn't get on with her mother ". A woman who was so oppressed when she was at WHF that her feelings came to a head.
Even the psychiatrist hadn't taken her seriously when she told him she was afraid she might hurt/harm her sons and had spoken of suicide. This SHOULD have been looked upon as a threat as it is today.
Jeremy can't be blamed for writing it,can he ?
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No only notes with religious messages dotted around the house, and I don't think this is a suicide note either. Sheila was far too tired to write that last night.
yes that sounds right steve
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https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/707781/Jeremy-Bamber-supporters-claim-police-ignored-sister-suicide-note-white-farm-essex/amp&ved=0ahUKEwiBp9293_zOAhWBWywKHaEYBpAQiJQBCBswAA&usg=AFQjCNHwDgs9AsZqRbg8SXMbp3nuWJ77MA
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It says it was written in the period between Sheila killing everyone, and the police arriving. It also says it is 'several hand written pages'. Sheila was certainly busy between 3.26am - 3.48am.
It says it was found in Sheila Caffells bedroom. So she didn't sleep in the main bedroom then ?
The OS were previously saying the note in the bible was a suicide note. Now they are saying Sheila left it in her bedroom. Although read the bible and killed herself in another room.
Is there a source of the exhibits list saying 'hand written note' or something to that effect ?
Which policeman seized it ?
It says the letter has been revealed to campaigners in 2011. Was it included in the 2012 CCRC application ?
After being revealed to campaigners in 2011, it is surprising that it has not come to the publics awareness until 2016. And that 5 years later there is suddenly a request to raise money for forensic tests.
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It seems that Sheila killed everyone and then went into her bedroom to write a suicide note of several pages which would have taken several minutes. No one has seen the suicide note.
Then went into the main bedroom with the rifle but without the suicide note she had just written. Meaning the suicide note may not be read by anyone.
Then got another persons bible, read it in the dark and shot herself. Twice.
Then put the bible on top of her blood and moved along the floor two feet after the second shot.
I'm not convinced.
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The way you work things out I'm not surprised that you're not convinced. You never will be at your rate.
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If Sheila wrote the suicide note in her bedroom, then wanted to read June's bible before killing herself, wouldn't it have been easier to leave the rifle and suicide note in her bedroom and go and fetch June's bible ?
Instead, after writing the suicide note of several pages, she left it where it may never be read. Then took the rifle into the main bedroom to read June's bible and kill herself.
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June had 4 bibles in WHF. Where were the other 3 pre massacre ?
Thought one would be in Sheila's room, espescially if she read the bible.
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The way you work things out I'm not surprised that you're not convinced. You never will be at your rate.
There is nothing about these notes that makes them sound like suicide notes after killing the family. Looks to me like someone has trawled through this forum and found Mike's post. In their haste they haven't translated them properly have have seen all kinds of things that simply aren't there - like BLOOD when the work is DIRT!
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There is nothing about these notes that makes them sound like suicide notes after killing the family. Looks to me like someone has trawled through this forum and found Mike's post. In their haste they haven't translated them properly have have seen all kinds of things that simply aren't there - like BLOOD when the work is DIRT!
Oh dear,something to repeatedly cling on to now---------the Blood. It's obvious that there are more ramblings in the letter than is seen in Mike's post.
I have things in my copies that aren't even mentioned and " dirt " is written a few times,such as " digging up the dirt that the public will know about ". Explain that one !!
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Oh dear,something to repeatedly cling on to now---------the Blood. It's obvious that there are more ramblings in the letter than is seen in Mike's post.
I have things in my copies that aren't even mentioned and " dirt " is written a few times,such as " digging up the dirt that the public will know about ". Explain that one !!
You explain it in terms of the murders? She's not talking about the murders, she talks about Colin being a 'womaniser' and asking someone to 'investigate' something but nothing about the deaths of the family. She leaves a phone number and talks VERY WELL of her mother. This is another desparate attempt to pass something off as a suicide letter. The letter in the bible was supposed to be a suicide note, turns out it was written by JUNE and that she wrote lots of these notes. The letters and numbers were supposed to be a suicide note but it's just a garbled mess. Now this ...... laughable. I wonder why the CT didn't bother to send the newspaper copies of these notes? ;) ;D ;D ;D
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You explain it in terms of the murders? She's not talking about the murders, she talks about Colin being a 'womaniser' and asking someone to 'investigate' something but nothing about the deaths of the family. She leaves a phone number and talks VERY WELL of her mother. This is another desparate attempt to pass something off as a suicide letter. The letter in the bible was supposed to be a suicide note, turns out it was written by JUNE and that she wrote lots of these notes. The letters and numbers were supposed to be a suicide note but it's just a garbled mess. Now this ...... laughable. I wonder why the CT didn't bother to send the newspaper copies of these notes? ;) ;D ;D ;D
The letters speak of the psychiatrist looking after her mother and also tells of the psychiatrist giving strength in preparation for when the Sun and Police call. It sounds to me that Sheila was doing the " tidying up " re-arrangeing bodies etc in preparation--------for what ? All are covered in blood apart from herself as she awaits photographers and police.
Final words- "He,SYC,won't let anything happen. Famous last words,eh ?
What you FAIL to understand is that the writer was deranged when writing these notes ( unless you can't tell the difference of course )
Sheila was writing as though God was with her when she'd said " I've come to you because God told me to mummy calm.We are both here with you Bless mummy don't let him see you so hurt.I don't mind him being here while I'm with you ". Sheila speaks of mummy ( Christine ) and mother ( June ).
Sheila also tells " mummy "" that she'll soon be looking at her picture in the paper,but you'll be given a lovely portrait of myself and the twins soon "
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The letters speak of the psychiatrist looking after her mother and also tells of the psychiatrist giving strength in preparation for when the Sun and Police call. It sounds to me that Sheila was doing the " tidying up " re-arrangeing bodies etc in preparation--------for what ? All are covered in blood apart from herself as she awaits photographers and police.
Final words- "He,SYC,won't let anything happen. Famous last words,eh ?
What you FAIL to understand is that the writer was deranged when writing these notes ( unless you can't tell the difference of course )
Sheila was writing as though God was with her when she'd said " I've come to you because God told me to mummy calm.We are both here with you Bless mummy don't let him see you so hurt.I don't mind him being here while I'm with you ". Sheila speaks of mummy ( Christine ) and mother ( June ).
Sheila also tells " mummy "" that she'll soon be looking at her picture in the paper,but you'll be given a lovely portrait of myself and the twins soon "
how did she manage to rearrange bodies without getting any blood on her :)
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The letters speak of the psychiatrist looking after her mother and also tells of the psychiatrist giving strength in preparation for when the Sun and Police call. It sounds to me that Sheila was doing the " tidying up " re-arrangeing bodies etc in preparation--------for what ? All are covered in blood apart from herself as she awaits photographers and police.
Final words- "He,SYC,won't let anything happen. Famous last words,eh ?
What you FAIL to understand is that the writer was deranged when writing these notes ( unless you can't tell the difference of course )
Sheila was writing as though God was with her when she'd said " I've come to you because God told me to mummy calm.We are both here with you Bless mummy don't let him see you so hurt.I don't mind him being here while I'm with you ". Sheila speaks of mummy ( Christine ) and mother ( June ).
Sheila also tells " mummy "" that she'll soon be looking at her picture in the paper,but you'll be given a lovely portrait of myself and the twins soon "
Ha, ha! That's just your slant Lookout. Why woud she be saying June was being looked after by a psychiatrist when she had just shot her dead?
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how did she manage to rearrange bodies without getting any blood on her :)
That would account for the broken shower as she'd washed the blood from her,but she still walked through it.
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Ha, ha! That's just your slant Lookout. Why woud she be saying June was being looked after by a psychiatrist when she had just shot her dead?
It's what the deranged letter says. ::)
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I can't believe how bloody thick you all are---------or is it something else ??
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I can't believe how bloody thick you all are---------or is it something else ??
Rude. I can't believe how gullible you are. Where is your sense? ;D
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Rude. I can't believe how gullible you are. Where is your sense? ;D
Gullible ? Oh yes.I'm going to listen to you lot aren't I ?? Always right are you ?
If you must know, my sense has depleted with most of your excuses/theories and gobble-de-gook not to mention snide remarks thrown in for good measure.
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Gullible ? Oh yes.I'm going to listen to you lot aren't I ?? Always right are you ?
If you must know, my sense has depleted with most of your excuses/theories and gobble-de-gook not to mention snide remarks thrown in for good measure.
As, I imagine, has ours with yours. If there's any derangement here, it's your take how the letter is written and what it means. A woman SO deranged that she takes time out to extract "SYC" as a diminutive of psychiatrist!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, right..................NOT!!!
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I can't believe how bloody thick you all are---------or is it something else ??
Who are you aiming that at?
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Gullible ? Oh yes.I'm going to listen to you lot aren't I ?? Always right are you ?
If you must know, my sense has depleted with most of your excuses/theories and gobble-de-gook not to mention snide remarks thrown in for good measure.
If you weren't someone found of throwing out snide remarks on a regular basis, you might have a point, however, if anyone challenges your posts, the reply is always steeped in vinegar.
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"It is estimated that 25–30% of suicides are accompanied by a note. According to Gelder, Mayou and Geddes (2005) one in six leaves a suicide note".
Sheila must have been the 1 in 6. I bet most of those would leave their note next to them. Espescially if they had written pages and it's the last thing they do.
Surprising she left a note as she had just killed her closest relatives.
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If you weren't someone found of throwing out snide remarks on a regular basis, you might have a point, however, if anyone challenges your posts, the reply is always steeped in vinegar.
Yours are always curt and acidic too !! I'm ALWAYS on my guard when I post,whatever it's about,particularly lately on this thread ! Why,when something hits the headlines you start ?? It's ALWAYS so predictable and it's also so unnecessary too.
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Yours are always curt and acidic too !! I'm ALWAYS on my guard when I post,whatever it's about,particularly lately on this thread ! Why,when something hits the headlines you start ?? It's ALWAYS so predictable and it's also so unnecessary too.
Right back at ya, Lookout ;)
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Yours are always curt and acidic too !! I'm ALWAYS on my guard when I post,whatever it's about,particularly lately on this thread ! Why,when something hits the headlines you start ?? It's ALWAYS so predictable and it's also so unnecessary too.
I haven't been rude to you at all - I spent my time looking for the bloody thread for you so I can't be that much of a bitch!
However, the info on the OS is incorrect, stating that the letter says blood when it actually says dirt changes the context and the CT are good at that. Rather than defending it, you should want the TRUTH to be reported. Reporting inaccurate information won't help Jeremy and people aren't stupid!
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"Most notes, however, average the length of a normal paragraph, 120-160 words."
It seems Sheila is in a small percentage in many aspects of her suicide note -
Was one of the 1 in 6 of people that actually left a note prior to committing suicide.
Is in the minority of people that wrote pages in her suicide note, rather than a paragraph which most people do. Although she only had 22 minutes.
Surely only 1 in a 100 would write a suicide note just before committing suicide. Then leave it where it may not be found for 30 years.
The suicide note is after she had killed her four closest relatives.
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Rude. I can't believe how gullible you are. Where is your sense? ;D
:)) :)) ;)
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Oh dear , part of the reason I came off the forum is still prevalent I am sad to see. For your information I am not sure what what the campaign team are playing at. I asked them to release some more of the notes , because if they are the ones a lot of us spent time deciphering then I don't think they are even from the time of the crime . They were apparently written afterwards by a medium? And we're not Sheila's handwriting. However if this is incorrect information and they were seen at the appeal in 2011 as claimed then perhaps I am wrong.
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The way you work things out I'm not surprised that you're not convinced. You never will be at your rate.
does adam know we can read!
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give you one guess Caroline,
We need to raise £1,530 in 28 days to pay for a forensic report on a series of handwritten pages by Sheila Caffell found at the scene. We believe this is a suicide letter.
They are still appealing for £1530 on his website, you would have thought they would have raised this amount by now? It's not a lot to ask for, but not raising this amount says a lot about what support he has? He nearly robbed this amount from the caravan park in the 80s.
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You explain it in terms of the murders? She's not talking about the murders, she talks about Colin being a 'womaniser' and asking someone to 'investigate' something but nothing about the deaths of the family. She leaves a phone number and talks VERY WELL of her mother. This is another desparate attempt to pass something off as a suicide letter. The letter in the bible was supposed to be a suicide note, turns out it was written by JUNE and that she wrote lots of these notes. The letters and numbers were supposed to be a suicide note but it's just a garbled mess. Now this ...... laughable. I wonder why the CT didn't bother to send the newspaper copies of these notes? ;) ;D ;D ;D
what would you call someone then caroline who wrote notes/letters like that. It clearly isnt written by someone taking thier time about what the want to say. They are clearly from someone that isnt in tbier right minds. Wether or not its a suicide note we would have to see but certainly some of the comments are quite odd. I mean who says me and my babies are going to our rest (sorry probably not word for word) .
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Rude. I can't believe how gullible you are. Where is your sense? ;D
gullible or not you cannot deny the letters are written from someone who is clearly very unwell.
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Oh dear , part of the reason I came off the forum is still prevalent I am sad to see. For your information I am not sure what what the campaign team are playing at. I asked them to release some more of the notes , because if they are the ones a lot of us spent time deciphering then I don't think they are even from the time of the crime . They were apparently written afterwards by a medium? And we're not Sheila's handwriting. However if this is incorrect information and they were seen at the appeal in 2011 as claimed then perhaps I am wrong.
They are the same ones - where did you hear about the medium Jan?
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Oh dear , part of the reason I came off the forum is still prevalent I am sad to see. For your information I am not sure what what the campaign team are playing at. I asked them to release some more of the notes , because if they are the ones a lot of us spent time deciphering then I don't think they are even from the time of the crime . They were apparently written afterwards by a medium? And we're not Sheila's handwriting. However if this is incorrect information and they were seen at the appeal in 2011 as claimed then perhaps I am wrong.
Good to see you Jan and yes,it figures that the letters/notes could come from a medium-----same difference when I said deranged. ;D ;D ;D Both CC and Sheila were into things like that,quite the opposite of being religious I feel.
I do remember when the letter/s were first displayed that you had reservations about them then.
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They are still appealing for £1530 on his website, you would have thought they would have raised this amount by now? It's not a lot to ask for, but not raising this amount says a lot about what support he has? He nearly robbed this amount from the caravan park in the 80s.
i agree justice.i think the expression 'hasnt got a pot to piss in' sounds right :))
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Ironic to think that the oodles of money will follow him out of jail.
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Good to see you Jan and yes,it figures that the letters/notes could come from a medium-----same difference when I said deranged. ;D ;D ;D Both CC and Sheila were into things like that,quite the opposite of being religious I feel.
I do remember when the letter/s were first displayed that you had reservations about them then.
That's a hell of a segway, Lookout. Yesterday they were written by Sheila and ONLY Sheila!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) ::)
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They are the same ones - where did you hear about the medium Jan?
I wrote to Jeremy with some ideas about what they said. It was what he inferred. However he obviously thought they were not notes found by the police so would have dismissed them . If that has been shown not to be true then of course they would be looked at in a different light. I think that is the key. Where did they actually come from?
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I do remember JB saying that it wasn't Sheila's writing,but who knows,even he didn't know nor realise that she was as ill as she was so therefore he wouldn't have recognised her writing in that particular manner.
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That's a hell of a segway, Lookout. Yesterday they were written by Sheila and ONLY Sheila!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) ::)
I still maintain that they were. Even mediums write clearer than that.
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I still maintain that they were. Even mediums write clearer than that.
Yet you say they could have come from a medium. Are you keeping your options open by suggesting Sheila contacted one from the Great Beyond?
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I do remember JB saying that it wasn't Sheila's writing,but who knows,even he didn't know nor realise that she was as ill as she was so therefore he wouldn't have recognised her writing in that particular manner.
I agree if the source can be proved. If they were just produced without him knowing where they came from then of course he would have dismissed them. But if they came from the police evidence it is a different matter. The source is the key. That is what I am not clear about.
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Yet you say they could have come from a medium. Are you keeping your options open by suggesting Sheila contacted one from the Great Beyond?
I don't believe in all that-------only those with issues visit mediums.
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Ironic to think that the oodles of money will follow him out of jail.
barry george .didnt get a penny and it will be the same for jb.you can always give him a few bob ;D
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All it is/was is a ploy for the campaign team to get him In the headlines again and to get more money from you, I bet full well Bamber doesn't know what they are doing half the time? Hope someone gets in touch with the newspapers and tells them what's happening.
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Yet you say they could have come from a medium. Are you keeping your options open by suggesting Sheila contacted one from the Great Beyond?
No need for sarcasm . I don't think any of us can judge unless we know where the notes came from or how Jeremy came to see them in the first place. Or what information he has now.
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All it is/was is a ploy for the campaign team to get him In the headlines again and to get more money from you, I bet full well Bamber doesn't know what they are doing half the time? Hope someone gets in touch with the newspapers and tells them what's happening.
spot on justice ;)
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Why doesn't someone from here contact the Express if they feel so strongly about it. ? You've all got enough to say on here.
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All it is/was is a ploy for the campaign team to get him In the headlines again and to get more money from you, I bet full well Bamber doesn't know what they are doing half the time? Hope someone gets in touch with the newspapers and tells them what's happening.
I have asked the campaign team for some answers , but also I need to dig deep into my old paperwork to see what I can find about what Jeremy said to me.
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The thing I don't understand is why the campaign team are not expressly saying where the notes came from . If they were in the evidence and were the suicide note listed ( which it was). Then it must only have been written before the murders . But if they just appeared much later then I am confused.
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I have asked the campaign team for some answers , but also I need to dig deep into my old paperwork to see what I can find about what Jeremy said to me.
yes jan but you must keep in mind jb is a proven liar
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Why doesn't someone from here contact the Express if they feel so strongly about it. ? You've all got enough to say on here.
If I could prove they were lying I would, but until we can it would be hard, you see lookout, I deal in truth and honesty not make believe.
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If I could prove they were lying I would, but until we can it would be hard, you see lookout, I deal in truth and honesty not make believe.
:)) :)) ;)
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No need for sarcasm . I don't think any of us can judge unless we know where the notes came from or how Jeremy came to see them in the first place. Or what information he has now.
Jan, yesterday Lookout, having wrongly translated them, was doing a Nuh nuh nuhnuh nuh act because SHEILA's suicide note(S) -Lookout having seen and read notes unavailable to others- had been released. Yesterday she had NO doubts that Sheila had written them. I believe she used the word "deranged" of her, frequently. However, today she say that it's possible that a medium wrote the words...................and you say there's no need for sarcasm!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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If I could prove they were lying I would, but until we can it would be hard, you see lookout, I deal in truth and honesty not make believe.
So do I deal in truth and honesty. Isn't there proof enough on here for you ?
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Jan, yesterday Lookout, having wrongly translated them, was doing a Nuh nuh nuhnuh nuh act because SHEILA's suicide note(S) -Lookout having seen and read notes unavailable to others- had been released. Yesterday she had NO doubts that Sheila had written them. I believe she used the word "deranged" of her, frequently. However, today she say that it's possible that a medium wrote the words...................and you say there's no need for sarcasm!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes but I only said "possible" . As usual facts are hard to come by. I was not even sure they were the same notes . I will reserve judgement until I know where they came from.
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yes jan but you must keep in mind jb is a proven liar
With all due respect "Sami". It was Jeremy that indicated he did not think it was Sheila's writing because of the source. And it is the campaign team that are pursuing this . So I will reserve judgement at this stage . But thank you for your comments. :)
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So do I deal in truth and honesty. Isn't there proof enough on here for you ?
Quite right there is proof on here, I think that is why, under no pressure, more and more people have changed from innocent to guilty.
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Quite right there is proof on here, I think that is why, under no pressure, more and more people have changed from innocent to guilty.
Not me
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Nor me either.
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Not me
Good on you
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some people are like taff jones.too proud to admit when they are wrong :)
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some people are like taff jones.too proud to admit when they are wrong :)
Thats right Sami, the people who write to him I would not expect to change stance, unless eventually they see through his lies.
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Thats right Sami, the people who write to him I would not expect to change stance.
they might learn once the fleecing starts.we know what happened to poor daisey
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if taffy was given such a letter he would not have let it out of his sight and jb would not be where he is today :)
It's just one more case to them anyway all in a day's work.
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Why the need to pass remarks all the time ? What's it done for ?
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they might learn once the fleecing starts.we know what happened to poor daisey
A lot who thought Bamber innocent said Daisy did not exist or didn't want it to be true, but Aunt Agatha pointed out that Daisy did exist, all she was doing was trying to warn other people Sami. Like you said poor Daisy.
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Whatever " Daisy " thinks or says doesn't alter the fact that AA still supports Jeremy.
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some people are like taff jones.too proud to admit when they are wrong :)
If you are going to be brave and accuse, then just say who.
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they might learn once the fleecing starts.we know what happened to poor daisey
When does that start then in your experience.? Just so I am ready you understand.
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When does that start then in your experience.? Just so I am ready you understand.
you yell me .or ask daisy
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"Most notes, however, average the length of a normal paragraph, 120-160 words."
It seems Sheila is in a small percentage in many aspects of her suicide note -
Was one of the 1 in 6 of people that actually left a note prior to committing suicide.
Is in the minority of people that wrote pages in her suicide note, rather than a paragraph which most people do. Although she only had 22 minutes.
Surely only 1 in a 100 would write a suicide note just before committing suicide. Then leave it where it may not be found for 30 years.
The suicide note is after she had killed her four closest relatives.
So what is your premise as to when she actually wrote the "alleged" note? Where is your concrete evidence she only had 22 minutes? Did you miss me?
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I wrote to Jeremy with some ideas about what they said. It was what he inferred. However he obviously thought they were not notes found by the police so would have dismissed them . If that has been shown not to be true then of course they would be looked at in a different light. I think that is the key. Where did they actually come from?
There seems to be some confusion here (deliberate or not), the handwritten note described a illegible is (I am sure) this one ....
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=24796;image)
It is described as being found of Sheila's dressing table and has reference number DRH/42. It makes more sense for this note to be described as 'illegible' as the others may be difficult to read but they are not illegible.
You post about the medium makes sense with the above in mind.
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I think the allegation might be the note was started before the Wednesday morning and added to continually, though to my mind it does look like the ramblings of an individual from one session. Not sure where the table in her bedroom fits in though, unless we're back to the lounge or kitchen.
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Quite right there is proof on here, I think that is why, under no pressure, more and more people have changed from innocent to guilty.
And what proof is that Justice? ::)
Try finding an answer to this that fits the prosecution case. And I need answers no excuses 8)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7810.msg370156.html#msg370156 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7810.msg370156.html#msg370156)
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I think the allegation might be the note was started before the Wednesday morning and added to continually, though to my mind it does look like the ramblings of an individual from one session. Not sure where the table in her bedroom fits in though, unless we're back to the lounge or kitchen.
There was a suicide note mentioned in evidence at one stage but then it did seem to disappear. But I am not convinced this is the note. But yes she could , if in a disturbed state, be writing it at any time since she arrived at whf
F
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A lot who thought Bamber innocent said Daisy did not exist or didn't want it to be true, but Aunt Agatha pointed out that Daisy did exist, all she was doing was trying to warn other people Sami. Like you said poor Daisy.
This Daisy got in touch with me out the blue several month ago. She is a nutcase
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There seems to be some confusion here (deliberate or not), the handwritten note described a illegible is (I am sure) this one ....
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=24796;image)
It is described as being found of Sheila's dressing table and has reference number DRH/42. It makes more sense for this note to be described as 'illegible' as the others may be difficult to read but they are not illegible.
You post about the medium makes sense with the above in mind.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,197.0.html
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yea thanks when i need advice on manners i will ask you.as for getting to know you .i decline your invitation no offence.good night
None taken . Good night to you . :)
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,197.0.html
I agree there is confusion. But at one point on an evidence list there was suicide note listed. What would make them think that was a suicide note? As usual EP are the cause of doubt by their record keeping.
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I agree there is confusion. But at one point on an evidence list there was suicide note listed. What would make them think that was a suicide note? As usual EP are the cause of doubt by their record keeping.
They perhaps looked at it as being a suicide note due to where it was found?
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Why keep the letters mothballed though ?
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I agree there is confusion. But at one point on an evidence list there was suicide note listed. What would make them think that was a suicide note? As usual EP are the cause of doubt by their record keeping.
Another reference to the suicide note below (apparently found by Hammersley) and referenced as DRH/42 (the note above). Campion suggests that he was given this information by the 'consultancy campaign' - if this is the campaign team, then they know which note was on the bedside table.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2205.msg67559.html#msg67559
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Another reference to the suicide note below (apparently found by Hammersley) and referenced as DRH/42 (the note above). Campion suggests that he was given this information by the 'consultancy campaign' - if this is the campaign team, then they know which note was on the bedside table.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2205.msg67559.html#msg67559
Didn't Campion start another thread on the alleged suicide note if my memory serves me well?
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Yes,I think Campion's thread is in here somewhere.
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Another reference to the suicide note below (apparently found by Hammersley) and referenced as DRH/42 (the note above). Campion suggests that he was given this information by the 'consultancy campaign' - if this is the campaign team, then they know which note was on the bedside table.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2205.msg67559.html#msg67559
Was that the current campaign team though? Was hammersley the on who said he did not find it? Thought to mean the silencer? Perhaps he meant the note?
You know me well enough and I feel the campaign team are being evasive about this . So at the moment I am genuinely confused.
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Didn't Campion start another thread on the alleged suicide note if my memory serves me well?
There was an old thread where we did try and analyse the notes I am referring to . Quite a few of us contributed. That might jog my rusty memory a bit.
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There's a thread---------DC1470,which refers to Hammersley. Also a pdf which comp won't open ?
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Didn't Campion start another thread on the alleged suicide note if my memory serves me well?
That is Campions thread.
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I'm still here 'Lookout'!
Not been well...but fine now. :)
SORRY IF THIS IS OUTDATED NOW..... but I've been trying to decipher the last letter Mike put up....only some of it here. But looks like there was trouble at the farm!
? MUMMY, PLEASE DON’T BREAK YOUR HEART YOU WILL BE OK
SYC IS LOOKING AFTER YOU. THESE PEOPLE IN AUTHORITY WILL BE ROUND FARM
WHY DO YOU THINK I (WE? )COME TO YOU BECAUSE GOD TOLD ME I HAD TO CALM you NOW. MUMMY CALM. WE ARE BOTH HERE WITH YOU
BLESS VINCENT MUMMY DON’T LET HIM SEE YOU SO HURT
I DON’T EXPECT HIM BEING HERE WHILE I CALM YOU. SYC IS ALSO GIVING YOU STRENGTH SO YOU ARE READY WHEN THE SUN AND POLICE CALL BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO.
MY DEAREST MOTHER, I NO YOU WERE UPSET ??? VINCENT I SMACKED YOU ROTTEN AND ROBUST TWINS RE LAUGHING TWO THEY LEFT ??? UPSET
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I'm still here 'Lookout'!
Not been well...but fine now. :)
SORRY IF THIS IS OUTDATED NOW..... but I've been trying to decipher the last letter Mike put up....only some of it here. But looks like there was trouble at the farm!
? MUMMY, PLEASE DON’T BREAK YOUR HEART YOU WILL BE OK
SYC IS LOOKING AFTER YOU. THESE PEOPLE IN AUTHORITY WILL BE ROUND FARM
WHY DO YOU THINK I (WE? )COME TO YOU BECAUSE GOD TOLD ME I HAD TO CALM you NOW. MUMMY CALM. WE ARE BOTH HERE WITH YOU
BLESS VINCENT MUMMY DON’T LET HIM SEE YOU SO HURT
I DON’T EXPECT HIM BEING HERE WHILE I CALM YOU.SYC IS ALSO GIVING YOU STRENGTH SO YOU ARE READY WHEN THE SUN AND POLICE CALL BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO.
MY DEAREST MOTHER, I NO YOU WERE UPSET ??? VINCENT I SMACKED YOU ROTTEN AND ROBUST TWINS RE LAUGHING TWO THEY LEFT ??? UPSET
Were is this letter posted? :-\
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The link that Caroline put up and bumped the other day.....2014 on here.
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The link that Caroline put up and bumped the other day.....2014 on here.
Yeah I got it. thanks :) will have a look.
Are there no other documents from Sheila's writing to compare?
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David, there are 5 notes....the one I've part de-ciphered is the last note that Mike put up....further down than the rest. This was supposedly one that Taff Jones had.
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David, there are 5 notes....the one I've part de-ciphered is the last note that Mike put up....further down than the rest. This was supposedly one that Taff Jones had.
Here is my attempt at the first 10 lines of the first note Mike uploaded. Each question marks represents one word I can't guess or read.
? STOP LOOKING AT MY
PICTURE YOU WILL BREAK YOUR HEART
? ? ? REMEMBER I AM
YOUR DAUGHTER ? ? ?
? 3.3.57 ? NO ONE ?
? ? ? ? YOU ? ?
THE ? ? ? PHONE ?
LOVE TO BE IN ? SOON AND GET THE
DAILY BLESS ? ? ALL
? AS I SAID BEFORE ? ?
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The written information is " several pages long " as stated by CT,so whatever we have already on the forum only counts for half or even a quarter of the original,so who are we to argue about the contents when there's more to come ?
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I'm still here 'Lookout'!
Not been well...but fine now. :)
SORRY IF THIS IS OUTDATED NOW..... but I've been trying to decipher the last letter Mike put up....only some of it here. But looks like there was trouble at the farm!
? MUMMY, PLEASE DON’T BREAK YOUR HEART YOU WILL BE OK
SYC IS LOOKING AFTER YOU. THESE PEOPLE IN AUTHORITY WILL BE ROUND FARM
WHY DO YOU THINK I (WE? )COME TO YOU BECAUSE GOD TOLD ME I HAD TO CALM you NOW. MUMMY CALM. WE ARE BOTH HERE WITH YOU
BLESS VINCENT MUMMY DON’T LET HIM SEE YOU SO HURT
I DON’T EXPECT HIM BEING HERE WHILE I CALM YOU. SYC IS ALSO GIVING YOU STRENGTH SO YOU ARE READY WHEN THE SUN AND POLICE CALL BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO.
MY DEAREST MOTHER, I NO YOU WERE UPSET ??? VINCENT I SMACKED YOU ROTTEN AND ROBUST TWINS RE LAUGHING TWO THEY LEFT ??? UPSET
yes but for how long if lookout gets her way ;)
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Started already ?
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Started already ?
started what.its not an insult or a threat just an obsevation :)
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started what.its not an insult or a threat just an obsevation :)
What about YOUR attitude towards Jan last night ? Forgotten already ?
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What about YOUR attitude towards Jan last night ? Forgotten already ?
what about it
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What about YOUR attitude towards Jan last night ? Forgotten already ?
Don't worry lookout . I am ok. :)
I can cope . People who make personal digs have their own problems. They won't become my problems.
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I wonder who Vincent is. Could it possibly be the Christian name of Christine's husband?
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I remember trying to fathom out who Vincent was. Apart from a Saint or an Island,I don't know.
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If Jan is right about the medium, it explains what syc means.
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If Jan is right about the medium, it explains what syc means.
what does syc mean?
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what does syc mean?
Shortened version of P--syc--hiatrist. In my book,anyway.
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Shortened version of P--syc--hiatrist. In my book,anyway.
Or psychic.
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Or psychic.
You have it your way,I'll have it mine. Med. would have sufficed.
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You have it your way,I'll have it mine. Med. would have sufficed.
::)
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This is what I got from the top half of the second note
LOVES TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE
IT WAS SUCH A GOOD ?
YET ALL THE TIME HE IS
NO GOOD TO GOD AND HE CAN MAKE
HIMSELF LOOK GOOD TO THE
PRESS TELE ? ? GONE. HE
LOVES PUBLICITY
Will try reading the rest later
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This is what I got from the top half of the second note
LOVES TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE
IT WAS SUCH A GOOD ?
YET ALL THE TIME HE IS
NO GOOD TO GOD AND HE CAN MAKE
HIMSELF LOOK GOOD TO THE
PRESS TELE ? ? GONE. HE
LOVES PUBLICITY
Will try reading the rest later
Blimey even that's different to what I've got. How many notes were there ? ;D
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Filed as " illegible " ! Tut tut tut,the MOST important clue in a suicide !
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Filed as " illegible " ! Tut tut tut,the MOST important clue in a suicide !
You go there girl. Keep plugging away.
As Sharon Osbourne said to an X Factor contestent who had just got 4 'no's, - 'never give up'.
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You go there girl. Keep plugging away.
As Sharon Osbourne said to an X Factor contestdent who had just got 4 'no's, - 'never give up'.
Is there a point to your post ? Or are you just having a dig?
There was a suicide note registered in exhibits , but due to lack of detail we don't know for sure which note it was. Personally I don't think it was the one mentioned by the CT , because we have no trail of the OS at the moment . So I would like to see more evidence about how exactly it came to light .
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The note:-
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The note:-
Let's have a go at deciphering these notes...
please + don't break your heart. You will be OK. Syc is looking after you. Those people in authority will be round soon. Why do you think I came to you because God told me I had to calm my mummy, calm...
We are here ______ with you...
Syc is also giving you strength so you are ready when the sun and police call because they are going to...
My dearest mother. I know you were upset _____ it started your...
You are presently with yourselves in bed...
Syc is teaching you...
He won't let anything get mummy. I have got your eyes. Are you looking at my picture in the paper, bet you will then ______ a lovely portrait of myself + twins _______ ...
I know you are trying to calm down...
So mummy, please put this paper away and stop crying please, everything is going to be OK...
She _______ is not my blood relative...
So please get everything this you will eventually have them...
My mother was brought up by the law. She has loved all of us all her life. Help her. She needs so much comfort and I cannot give her this when in the other world. I am going to finish now as my mother's strength is slipping. Help her please. Bambs. 01989 4197...
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Filed as " illegible " ! Tut tut tut,the MOST important clue in a suicide !
What is?
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bletchley park is shut down now i think.iam sure they could have helped :)
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bletchley park is shut down now i think.iam sure they could have helped :)
Unless the scrawl can be increased in size in some way I think we're wasting our time.
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Unless the scrawl can be increased in size in some way I think we're wasting our time.
..which wouldn't be a first now I come to reflect.
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What is?
To find a suicide note.What else ?
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To find a suicide note.What else ?
Cept we don't know that these are suicide notes because DRH/42 is this note!
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Cept we don't know that these are suicide notes because DRH/42 is this note!
I 'm not talking about that one.
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You said yourself that the children did that.
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Please, please, please, on coded note ('DRH/42), use of word ' please' replicated in hand written note. Was handwritten note on bedside cabinet, or amongst pages of Bible, Commencing with 'Love one another'?
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..which wouldn't be a first now I come to reflect.
yes that sounds right steve
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Please, please, please, on coded note ('DRH/42), use of word ' please' replicated in hand written note. Was handwritten note on bedside cabinet, or amongst pages of Bible, Commencing with 'Love one another'?
The N M D top line could be Nicholas Mummy Daniel. Second line Bamber Grandad. The please repeated might be a pleading for some kind of trip the twins wanted to embark upon. It's heartbreaking.
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When added together, the five three's add up to 15 - same total of additional bullets needed to kill everyone (15 ) + 10 = 25...
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There's also a J for Jeremy.
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The N M D top line could be Nicholas Mummy Daniel. Second line Bamber Grandad. The please repeated might be a pleading for some kind of trip the twins wanted to embark upon. It's heartbreaking.
I think its very possible, its the one of the twins practicing/learning to write
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When added together, the five three's add up to 15 - same total of additional bullets needed to kill everyone (15 ) + 10 = 25...
That's not how a young woman's mind works who likes to paint her nails and be told she looks pretty.
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But, she wrote the handwritten notes, where she talks about not being able to help her mother because she is going to be in the other world. Mummy wasn't loosing strength, Mummy didn't need helping, but Mother did, mother did, please help her, please, when the authorities come, and they will be coming, the sun and the police, She (mother) is not my blood relative...
My mother was brought up by the law. She has loved all of us all her life. Help her. She needs so much comfort and I cannot give her this when in the other world. I am going to finish now as my mother's strength is slipping. Help her please. Bambs. 01989 4197....
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But, she wrote the handwritten notes, where she talks about not being able to help her mother because she is going to be in the other world. Mummy wasn't loosing strength, Mummy didn't need helping, but Mother did, mother did, please help her, please, when the authorities come, and they will be coming, the sun and the police, She (mother) is not my blood relative...
My mother was brought up by the law. She has loved all of us all her life. Help her. She needs so much comfort and I cannot give her this when in the other world. I am going to finish now as my mother's strength is slipping. Help her please. Bambs. 01989 4197....
Sheila wrote this in the past tense, and prior to her own death:-
My mother was brought up by the law. She has loved all of us all her life. Help her. She needs so much comfort and I cannot give her this when in the other world. I am going to finish now as my mother's strength is slipping. Help her please. Bambs. 01989 4197...
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That's not how a young woman's mind works who likes to paint her nails and be told she looks pretty.
That was part of her trouble,staying like that after the twins were born,then looking after them as well as providing for them. There aren't many mums around who have boisterous twin boys and look like a model 24/7. I think that got Sheila down as well as everything else,as she'd put it " losing her figure ".
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Sheila wrote this in the past tense, and prior to her own death:-
My mother was brought up by the law. She has loved all of us all her life. Help her. She needs so much comfort and I cannot give her this when in the other world. I am going to finish now as my mother's strength is slipping. Help her please. Bambs. 01989 4197...
I wonder who's telephone number she recorded at the end of the note?
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That was part of her trouble,staying like that after the twins were born,then looking after them as well as providing for them. There aren't many mums around who have boisterous twin boys and look like a model 24/7. I think that got Sheila down as well as everything else,as she'd put it " losing her figure ".
it very likely did get her down,but she never killed anyone not even herself :)
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it very likely did get her down,but she never killed anyone not even herself :)
Neither did Jeremy :)
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Neither did Jeremy :)
that leaves only crispy
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I wonder who's telephone number she recorded at the end of the note?
01989 is area code for Ross on Wye!
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Well, police originally believed that Sheila 'had' killed four others, and then herself - until the game changer was introduced by the relatives, after Julie Mugford came forward with a different account that was subsequently abandoned. We now know that the Boutflour children, David and Ann, introduced the key silencer evidence from 11th September onwards, and that Mugford had been coaxed forward four days earlier. Let us not forget, that Mugford first witness statement was recorded in a third person presentation, and that soon after the Boutflour children sought to introduce 'dodgy silencer' evidence between 11th and 14th September 1985, that Jeremy was bailed by the Magistrates. In hindsight, this silencer evidence and a significantly different interpretation of Mugford original account became a game changer. I have witnessedmyself the way a person's input can be recorded in a different way when it comes to gathering evidence. It all depends upon the mindset of the police officers who are receiving or recording 'that' evidence. This is what happened in the so called Bamber case. Whilst ever the case was being investigated as 'four murders and a suicide' under 'SC/688/85' police sought to gather and present the evidence in variously different ways and formats to support such a view. Or, in other words, police had a particular mindset at this time, and when seeking to obtain witness statements police paraphrased what witnesses had to say in a manner befitting that overall approach. However, once the nature of the investigation altered in a 'five murder' case, under 'SC/786/85' police gathered the evidence and presented it differently. It all depends on the perception of a situation as to how evidence will be gathered and presented, by the police and the prosecuting authorities. In most cases, there is usually only one perception adopted, but in the so called Bamber case, there are two contradicting ones...
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Are the hand written notes posted in this thread part of Sheila's suicide notes?
Yes, they are - they were recovered from inside the pages of the blue Bible positioned next to her body as shown in several crime scene photographs. The other coded note ('DRH/42) was found on her bedside cabinet. In the original investigation when it was being conducted as 'four murders and a suicide' both sets of notes were treated as Sheila's suicide note, but when the case changed and became 'SC/786/85', these latter hand written notes became detached because it's content contradicted the suggestion that she had been killed by Jeremy...
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Are the hand written notes posted in this thread part of Sheila's suicide notes?
Yes, they are - they were recovered from inside the pages of the blue Bible positioned next to her body as shown in several crime scene photographs. The other coded note ('DRH/42) was found on her bedside cabinet. In the original investigation when it was being conducted as 'four murders and a suicide' both sets of notes were treated as Sheila's suicide note, but when the case changed and became 'SC/786/85', these latter hand written notes became detached because it's content contradicted the suggestion that she had been killed by Jeremy...
So Mike you are definitely saying these notes were inside the bible ? So where were they "found " eventually? And when? The campaign team are not clear about this . If they were found in the boxes of evidence why have they no police evidence number references? I just want to clarify who found the notes , where were they found and when did Jeremy know about them?
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Jan,I think both you and I knew of these notes/letters nigh on three years ago as did Jeremy but because he'd dismissed them as not being his sister's writing,the subject fizzled out. I'd had reservations about them simply because they'd been written by someone who was " ill ",including June.
It's possible that with Poppy's experience of being involved with mental health,that she had explained to JB that because Sheila hadn't been in her right mind,that her writing as well as the content would reflect this.
It's obvious that JB hadn't known just how unwell Sheila had been that had made such a turnaround in her life,even down to her writing/wording. I'd imagine it came as a shock to him considering the earlier lifestyle that she'd led.
Any man of 24 doesn't always have a clue about what goes on within the home because those who are/were in JB's financial position are out and about enjoying themselves.Show me a 24 year old who isn't.
I don't understand the delay in producing these letters now ?
I can remember someone off the forum ringing that phone number of Ross-on-Wye and getting a non-obtainable sound. Could have been that " actor " who rang WHF that night,or Sheila had rang him,not sure which.
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Jan,I think both you and I knew of these notes/letters nigh on three years ago as did Jeremy but because he'd dismissed them as not being his sister's writing,the subject fizzled out. I'd had reservations about them simply because they'd been written by someone who was " ill ",including June.
It's possible that with Poppy's experience of being involved with mental health,that she had explained to JB that because Sheila hadn't been in her right mind,that her writing as well as the content would reflect this.
It's obvious that JB hadn't known just how unwell Sheila had been that had made such a turnaround in her life,even down to her writing/wording. I'd imagine it came as a shock to him considering the earlier lifestyle that she'd led.
Any man of 24 doesn't always have a clue about what goes on within the home because those who are/were in JB's financial position are out and about enjoying themselves.Show me a 24 year old who isn't.
I don't understand the delay in producing these letters now ?
I can remember someone off the forum ringing that phone number of Ross-on-Wye and getting a non-obtainable sound. Could have been that " actor " who rang WHF that night,or Sheila had rang him,not sure which.
What actor?
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What actor?
He was mentioned in one of the books,and I've forgotten his damn name.He had a small part in Coronation street some years ago,possibly a cameo part.
I'll see if I can find his name.
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Jan,I think both you and I knew of these notes/letters nigh on three years ago as did Jeremy but because he'd dismissed them as not being his sister's writing,the subject fizzled out. I'd had reservations about them simply because they'd been written by someone who was " ill ",including June.
It's possible that with Poppy's experience of being involved with mental health,that she had explained to JB that because Sheila hadn't been in her right mind,that her writing as well as the content would reflect this.
It's obvious that JB hadn't known just how unwell Sheila had been that had made such a turnaround in her life,even down to her writing/wording. I'd imagine it came as a shock to him considering the earlier lifestyle that she'd led.
Any man of 24 doesn't always have a clue about what goes on within the home because those who are/were in JB's financial position are out and about enjoying themselves.Show me a 24 year old who isn't.
I don't understand the delay in producing these letters now ?
I can remember someone off the forum ringing that phone number of Ross-on-Wye and getting a non-obtainable sound. Could have been that " actor " who rang WHF that night,or Sheila had rang him,not sure which.
For whatever reason I don't think Jeremy thought the notes had been found in the house either. So the "source" is vital. Notice that everything in the press refers to his supporters not him. Someone must know where and when they were discovered.
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For whatever reason I don't think Jeremy thought the notes had been found in the house either. So the "source" is vital. Notice that everything in the press refers to his supporters not him. Someone must know where and when they were discovered.
Yes,the " supporters " which I read over and over again and personally came to the conclusion that " someone " had come forward with what THEY knew.
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He was mentioned in one of the books,and I've forgotten his damn name.He had a small part in Coronation street some years ago,possibly a cameo part.
I'll see if I can find his name.
On looking for this guy's name,I came across a post of 2011 telling of " two calls to unknown number/s had made by Sheila at WHF before she killed herself ( of course ) while the line was still open and being monitered.
There is reference to this,as follows :
" At 05.40am,just 5 minutes after the report that the TFU were engaged in conversation with someone inside the farmhouse,the BT operator was asked by Essex Police to once again check the line inside the farmhouse ( which had been previously confirmed as being off the hook ) and at that time the operator reported that the telephone was now engaged-----05.40 am.
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What actor?
Don Hawkins-------he'd played the part of Stan and Hilda Ogden's son many years ago.
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The notes came to light as part of the 'COLP' investigation, but not stumbled upon for two decades because they were concealed amongst the cache of documents in my possession. It was me who sent copies of the notes to JB...
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The notes came to light as part of the 'COLP' investigation, but not stumbled upon for two decades because they were concealed amongst the cache of documents in my possession. It was me who sent copies of the notes to JB...
So unfortunately we don't have any reference to these notes by EP at all except that the illegible suicide note could refer to these notes or the piece of paper with numbers and please written on it. So unfortunately no one can prove they were in the house on the night of the murders even if they are proved to be Sheila's writing? Unless one of the officers admits he found the notes after the murders it makes things a bit difficult.
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So unfortunately we don't have any reference to these notes by EP at all except that the illegible suicide note could refer to these notes or the piece of paper with numbers and please written on it. So unfortunately no one can prove they were in the house on the night of the murders even if they are proved to be Sheila's writing? Unless one of the officers admits he found the notes after the murders it makes things a bit difficult.
There exists ledgers of all documentary evidence obtained as part of the two investigations ('SC/886/85'), and 'SC/786/85') and most of the documents seized by Essex police. The hand written suicide notes including the coded note from the bedside cabinet, and the other handwritten notes from inside the two Bibles in the main bedroom, were part of a file / folder, numbered '75'...
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There exists ledgers of all documentary evidence obtained as part of the two investigations ('SC/886/85'), and 'SC/786/85') and most of the documents seized by Essex police. The hand written suicide notes including the coded note from the bedside cabinet, and the other handwritten notes from inside the two Bibles in the main bedroom, were part of a file / folder, numbered '75'...
I'm glad that you have comfirmed that it was the 'coded' note that was found on the bedside cabinet.
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I'm glad that you have comfirmed that it was the 'coded' note that was found on the bedside cabinet.
The other hand written notes, were inside the pages of the black covered bible and the blue covered bible. The note which was seized from inside the pages of the blue bible, commenced with ' love one another', whilst the other hand written notes were found in the black covered bible. Originally one of these bibles had the exhibit reference DRH/33, whilst the other had the exhibit reference, DRH/44...
Eventually, both bibles were merged into the same exhibit reference, DRH/44, which enabled the prosecuting authorities to conceal the existence of the black covered bible which contained Sheila's suicide notes. These notes, which came from the missing black covered bible, were originally earmarked ltem No.75, but cops introduced hand swabs by that number (75), when they resubmitted the hand swabs which had originally been item No.17 (but they got rejected at the lab' on the 9th August 1985...
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PS Adams notes from his COLP interview makes mention of the fact that during conversations he had at the scene with PC Collins and other firearm officers whilst all were present inside the bedroom before they left the scene to retire from duty, that it appeared that both June and Sheila had been bible reading before the inevitable happened. Well, they certainly weren't sharing the same bible - the blue bible belonged to June Bamber, and the black covered bible was being used by Sheila...
Once the nature of the investigation changed, the black bible and Sheila's suicide notes were considered to be surplus to requirements...
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PS Adams notes from his COLP interview makes mention of the fact that during conversations he had at the scene with PC Collins and other firearm officers whilst all were present inside the bedroom before they left the scene to retire from duty, that it appeared that both June and Sheila had been bible reading before the inevitable happened. Well, they certainly weren't sharing the same bible - the blue bible belonged to June Bamber, and the black covered bible was being used by Sheila...
Once the nature of the investigation changed, the black bible and Sheila's suicide notes were considered to be surplus to requirements...
I can't see June the traditionalist reading the New English Bible somehow. Maybe she had been reading it to the twins?
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PS Adams notes from his COLP interview makes mention of the fact that during conversations he had at the scene with PC Collins and other firearm officers whilst all were present inside the bedroom before they left the scene to retire from duty, that it appeared that both June and Sheila had been bible reading before the inevitable happened. Well, they certainly weren't sharing the same bible - the blue bible belonged to June Bamber, and the black covered bible was being used by Sheila...
Once the nature of the investigation changed, the black bible and Sheila's suicide notes were considered to be surplus to requirements...
I understand you had examples of Sheila's handwriting , did you ever compare the two?
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I can't see June the traditionalist reading the New English Bible somehow. Maybe she had been reading it to the twins?
What happened to the black covered Bible, and it's contents?
Both Bibles were found in the bedroom, the blue Bible was on the floor to the left of the bed (as viewed from the foot of the bed), the black Bible was originally supposed to have been on top of Sheila's body when her body was on the bed. Now, this is interesting since where was that black covered Bible normally kept? I seem to recollect that according to the house cleaner, that one of these two Bibles was considered to be June Bambers personal Bible, kept in the main bedroom, whilst the other black covered Bible was normally kept downstairs in the kitchen. We know that Sheila was downstairs in the kitchen by reference to the contemporaneously recorded police message log contents (7.37 and 7.38am), plus her bloodstained undergarment was soaking in a bucket of cold water there in the kitchen. Seems to me that Sheila took the black covered Bible from downstairs in the kitchen where it was normally kept, and took it upstairs with her after she recovered and fled upstairs to the bedroom, and that these handwritten suicide notes were contained within the pages of 'that' Bible...
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I understand you had examples of Sheila's handwriting , did you ever compare the two?
Yes, I do...
The contents of the handwritten suicide notes were not written by June Bamber, or Ralph Bamber that's a fact. Since, why would June or Ralph be contemplating the authorities and the police arriving at the farm and their photographs appearing in the Sun newspaper? Why would June Bamber be calling her mum, mother and mummy as though she was speaking about two different people?
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Yes, I do...
The contents of the handwritten suicide notes were not written by June Bamber, or Ralph Bamber that's a fact. Since, why would June or Ralph be contemplating the authorities and the police arriving at the farm and their photographs appearing in the Sun newspaper? Why would June Bamber be calling her mum, mother and mummy as though she was speaking about two different people?
Why would a suicide note talk about someone they have just murdered as though they were alive and not mention others? There is once reference of 'go to our rest', however, that depends on something being made public.
You say they were found in the other bible? Yet Sheila had the blue bible by her side, why wouldn't she choose to die with her note next to her? I don't believe they are suicide notes at all.
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Why would a suicide note talk about someone they have just murdered as though they were alive and not mention others? There is once reference of 'go to our rest', however, that depends on something being made public.
You say they were found in the other bible? Yet Sheila had the blue bible by her side, why wouldn't she choose to die with her note next to her? I don't believe they are suicide notes at all.
She's referring to her biological mother
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What happened to the black covered Bible, and it's contents?
Both Bibles were found in the bedroom, the blue Bible was on the floor to the left of the bed (as viewed from the foot of the bed), the black Bible was originally supposed to have been on top of Sheila's body when her body was on the bed. Now, this is interesting since where was that black covered Bible normally kept? I seem to recollect that according to the house cleaner, that one of these two Bibles was considered to be June Bambers personal Bible, kept in the main bedroom, whilst the other black covered Bible was normally kept downstairs in the kitchen. We know that Sheila was downstairs in the kitchen by reference to the contemporaneously recorded police message log contents (7.37 and 7.38am), plus her bloodstained undergarment was soaking in a bucket of cold water there in the kitchen. Seems to me that Sheila took the black covered Bible from downstairs in the kitchen where it was normally kept, and took it upstairs with her after she recovered and fled upstairs to the bedroom, and that these handwritten suicide notes were contained within the pages of 'that' Bible...
I also have recollections of the black bound Bible. The same one possibly being an older one which contained illustrations and could possibly have been shown to the twins because of the pictures which explained various chapters within it.
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She's referring to her biological mother
The note is supposed to be addressed TO mummy (her biological mother) but REFERS to her 'mother' which is supposed to be June. It doesn't read like a suicide note at all and it wasn't found on the bedside cabinet as suggested by the CT. They aren't 'illegible' because even people here have been able to translate most of them. The only illegible note is the one with letters and numbers, I believe that EP were referring to this note which WAS found on the bedside cabinet. One is being passed off as the other to make them seem more legitimate.
According to Jan, even Jeremy has previously stated that he doesn't think they were found at the scene, nor were they written by Sheila.
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I'm glad my letters don't look like that. ;D People would definitely think I'd gone barmy.
I'd question the sanity of the writer/author that's for sure. It's written as spoken,in dribs and drabs and no specific order.
It's not that EP found them " illegible ",it was that they were too idle to be bothered deciphering it,as afterall,ANY note whatever its contents is treated as a suicide note where there HAS been a suicide.
This was the HUGE mistake which had been made in the Gilfoyle case where diaries belonging to the deceased were kept " under wraps " for 16 years while Eddie was festering in prison.
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On looking for this guy's name,I came across a post of 2011 telling of " two calls to unknown number/s had made by Sheila at WHF before she killed herself ( of course ) while the line was still open and being monitered.
There is reference to this,as follows :
" At 05.40am,just 5 minutes after the report that the TFU were engaged in conversation with someone inside the farmhouse,the BT operator was asked by Essex Police to once again check the line inside the farmhouse ( which had been previously confirmed as being off the hook ) and at that time the operator reported that the telephone was now engaged-----05.40 am.
Now, that couldn't happen unless there was still someone alive inside the farmhouse at 'that' time, trying to use the phone, or who was using the telephone. Surely, the operator was asked to keep a check on how long the engaged tone lasted?
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(Folder 57) - Item 75...
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I'm finding these notes intriguing! The one where Sheila writes in large letters de-ciphers to.....
? TO TESTIFIED TO EX HUSBAND OF MINE WHAT TO DO.
HOW DARE HE SAY NOT TO BRING MY SONS WITH ME THEY'RE WHERE THEY BELONG WITH ME HE NEVER WANTED THEM. OH SO SORRY MUMMY HERE I GO AGAIN GETTING ANGRY BUT HE NEVER WAS ANY GOOD.....
Not quite finished the last line.
This note is obviously about Shelia's ex husband Colin. June was worried in the months prior to the murders about the twins being taken into care, was this because Colin wanted the children and the argument on the night of the murders wasn't between Sheila and her parents, ( as the note obviously states Sheila wants to keep the twins, as did her parents) but instead Sheila and her parents discussing ways to help Sheila keep the boys from Colin having them full time. I'm even wondering if Colin bought up the subject again when he took them to WHF on the previous Sunday. I think Sheila was working with her parents over this, not against as JB states!
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I'm finding these notes intriguing! The one where Sheila writes in large letters de-ciphers to.....
? TO TESTIFIED TO EX HUSBAND OF MINE WHAT TO DO.
HOW DARE HE SAY NOT TO BRING MY SONS WITH ME THEY'RE WHERE THEY BELONG WITH ME HE NEVER WANTED THEM. OH SO SORRY MUMMY HERE I GO AGAIN GETTING ANGRY BUT HE NEVER WAS ANY GOOD.....
Not quite finished the last line.
This note is obviously about Shelia's ex husband Colin. June was worried in the months prior to the murders about the twins being taken into care, was this because Colin wanted the children and the argument on the night of the murders wasn't between Sheila and her parents, ( as the note obviously states Sheila wants to keep the twins, as did her parents) but instead Sheila and her parents discussing ways to help Sheila keep the boys from Colin having them full time. I'm even wondering if Colin bought up the subject again when he took them to WHF on the previous Sunday. I think Sheila was working with her parents over this, not against as JB states!
Good observation, Romeo. There are several ways that letter can be interpreted. Suicide isn't one of them.
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I'm finding these notes intriguing! The one where Sheila writes in large letters de-ciphers to.....
? TO TESTIFIED TO EX HUSBAND OF MINE WHAT TO DO.
HOW DARE HE SAY NOT TO BRING MY SONS WITH ME THEY'RE WHERE THEY BELONG WITH ME HE NEVER WANTED THEM. OH SO SORRY MUMMY HERE I GO AGAIN GETTING ANGRY BUT HE NEVER WAS ANY GOOD.....
Not quite finished the last line.
This note is obviously about Shelia's ex husband Colin. June was worried in the months prior to the murders about the twins being taken into care, was this because Colin wanted the children and the argument on the night of the murders wasn't between Sheila and her parents, ( as the note obviously states Sheila wants to keep the twins, as did her parents) but instead Sheila and her parents discussing ways to help Sheila keep the boys from Colin having them full time. I'm even wondering if Colin bought up the subject again when he took them to WHF on the previous Sunday. I think Sheila was working with her parents over this, not against as JB states!
The last line say's 'He was a womaniser'
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The last line say's 'He was a womaniser'
Yes,and that was obvious-----even on his wedding night.!
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Yes,and that was obvious-----even on his wedding night.!
I'm just translating the sentence, not passing judgement.
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The last line say's 'He was a womaniser'
Of course!! Thanks Caroline. :)
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Of course!! Thanks Caroline. :)
Here to help ;) ;D
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I'm just translating the sentence, not passing judgement.
Of course you are.
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Good observation, Romeo. There are several ways that letter can be interpreted. Suicide isn't one of them.
We'll leave that to the experts,shall we ?
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(Folder 57) - Item 75...
I can't even decipher that one with my online magnifiying facility let alone my reading one. Jam-jar bottoms next for me.How frustrating and annoying. ( don't suppose binoculars would work :( )
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We'll leave that to the experts,shall we ?
As I've previously said, right back at ya, Lookout ;)
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We'll leave that to the experts,shall we ?
which experts do you have in mind
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Good observation, Romeo. There are several ways that letter can be interpreted. Suicide isn't one of them.
I'm not sure how I would interpret them Jane but they should be looked at by a professional. An expert will be able to have a much better idea than us.
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I'm not sure how I would interpret them Jane but they should be looked at by a professional. An expert will be able to have a much better idea than us.
As we've seen, Notsure, experts don't always agree.
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As we've seen, Notsure, experts don't always agree.
In your case,it depends what they do or don't agree on depending on your stance,doesn't it ?
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As we've seen, Notsure, experts don't always agree.
I'm unsure how the handwriting expert is going to be able to give his opinion on if the note is a suicide letter or not.... Perhaps once they have raised funds to decipher the letter and learn if it is Sheilas handwriting or not, they will then begin raising MORE funds for another expert to tell us that the content is a suicide note.
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In your case,it depends what they do or don't agree on depending on your stance,doesn't it ?
As, I imagine, it does with your own, Lookout
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I'm unsure how the handwriting expert is going to be able to give his opinion on if the note is a suicide letter or not.... Perhaps once they have raised funds to decipher the letter and learn if it is Sheilas handwriting or not, they will then begin raising MORE funds for another expert to tell us that the content is a suicide note.
I wonder what they'll think up to raise funds for that ;D ;D
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Why the sour-grapes all the time ? It gets so tedious.Ever thought of giving someone a chance,or aren't you made that way ?
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Why the sour-grapes all the time ? It gets so tedious.Ever thought of giving someone a chance,or aren't you made that way ?
Give who a chance?
Bamber? I believe him to be a child killer. Why would I give him a chance? I've listened to what he has to say and I do not believe it. That's enough chance for a convicted child killer.
The CT? I have listened to what they have to say, seen their devious behaviour and the ways they are willing to claim falseties for a child killer.
Why should I give chances to people like that??! No thanks.
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I'm finding these notes intriguing! The one where Sheila writes in large letters de-ciphers to.....
? TO TESTIFIED TO EX HUSBAND OF MINE WHAT TO DO.
HOW DARE HE SAY NOT TO BRING MY SONS WITH ME THEY'RE WHERE THEY BELONG WITH ME HE NEVER WANTED THEM. OH SO SORRY MUMMY HERE I GO AGAIN GETTING ANGRY BUT HE NEVER WAS ANY GOOD.....
Not quite finished the last line.
This note is obviously about Shelia's ex husband Colin. June was worried in the months prior to the murders about the twins being taken into care, was this because Colin wanted the children and the argument on the night of the murders wasn't between Sheila and her parents, ( as the note obviously states Sheila wants to keep the twins, as did her parents) but instead Sheila and her parents discussing ways to help Sheila keep the boys from Colin having them full time. I'm even wondering if Colin bought up the subject again when he took them to WHF on the previous Sunday. I think Sheila was working with her parents over this, not against as JB states!
Where is all this from? I do think the letters are written by Sheila because she has signed it "Bambs", which Colin said she preferred, or at least it's what her friends called her and not "Bambi" as the Press labelled her.
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Caroline put the link up to the letters Steve, I'll post it here again in a mo. I hadn't seen them before, but in my mind they do make sense, it's just that Sheila's handwriting is terrible.
Here's the link to earlier posts on this site.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5372.msg233732.html#msg233732
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Caroline put the link up to the letters Steve, I'll post it here again in a mo. I hadn't seen them before, but in my mind they do make sense, it's just that Sheila's handwriting is terrible.
Here's the link to earlier posts on this site.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5372.msg233732.html#msg233732
I can make out the "he is no good bit" but how do you know it's referring to Colin? As far as the Sun newspaper and Police mentioned in the same sentence it's hardly likely to be a suicide note. I wonder if Jeremy threatened his sister with exposure of the photographs whilst she was still alive?
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Give who a chance?
Bamber? I believe him to be a child killer. Why would I give him a chance? I've listened to what he has to say and I do not believe it. That's enough chance for a convicted child killer.
The CT? I have listened to what they have to say, seen their devious behaviour and the ways they are willing to claim falseties for a child killer.
Why should I give chances to people like that??! No thanks.
You said Bamber,I didn't ! I was actually referring to Trudi and her team along with those who are going to do the testing of these letters. Let them do it first before you all start whinging.
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You said Bamber,I didn't ! I was actually referring to Trudi and her team along with those who are going to do the testing of these letters. Let them do it first before you all start whinging.
I don't think people like Trudi deserve anymore chances after their bake offs and graveside videos plus all of the erroneous information on their website to hook people into the incorrect narrative that they want people to believe. Shame on them.
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I don't think people like Trudi deserve anymore chances after their bake offs and graveside videos plus all of the erroneous information on their website to hook people into the incorrect narrative that they want people to believe. Shame on them.
Why don't you tell her that ??
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I'd rather rely on Trudi and Co. than any guilters !
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I can make out the "he is no good bit" but how do you know it's referring to Colin? As far as the Sun newspaper and Police mentioned in the same sentence it's hardly likely to be a suicide note. I wonder if Jeremy threatened his sister with exposure of the photographs whilst she was still alive?
I am certain in my own mind these are not suicide notes.
It does say EX HUSBAND Steve, and also speaks of her 'Sons'. I also mentioned in an earlier post saying ....could JB have threatened to sell the photos of Sheila when she was alive... I'm now also wondering if Sheila's ex (Colin) found out about the photo's and was going to use them against her in his bid for total custody of the twins.
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I'd rather rely on Trudi and Co. than any guilters !
I think Poppy Miller is far more effective as she seems to do research rather than just be a friendly ear for Jeremy when he telephones from prison.
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I think Poppy Miller is far more effective as she seems to do research rather than just be a friendly ear for Jeremy when he telephones from prison.
I like Poppy,she's a clever woman. You're right,she certainly has done a lot of research and is independent of the CT team.
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Give who a chance?
Bamber? I believe him to be a child killer. Why would I give him a chance? I've listened to what he has to say and I do not believe it. That's enough chance for a convicted child killer.
The CT? I have listened to what they have to say, seen their devious behaviour and the ways they are willing to claim falseties for a child killer.
Why should I give chances to people like that??! No thanks.
well said mat :)
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I don't think people like Trudi deserve anymore chances after their bake offs and graveside videos plus all of the erroneous information on their website to hook people into the incorrect narrative that they want people to believe. Shame on them.
I agree Mat 100%!
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Whether or not Trudi's idea's of the bake-off and the graveside were the best ways of channeling publicity,it worked. It got people talking and thinking,and though I wasn't particularly impressed with the bake-off I understood the concept behind it,where others didn't.
To those who continued to condemn the issues,it's become a constant reminder that if all else fails they've still got these two issues in which to " have a go " about, regardless of the heading in question. In other words, it's become like another excuse to try and justify JB's guilt where there may just be a hint that there's a chance of his freedom---------------as in this particular thread regarding possible suicide notes.
" We'll just throw in the bake-off and graveside card ",mentality. I call it diversity.
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Whether or not Trudi's idea's of the bake-off and the graveside were the best ways of channeling publicity,it worked. It got people talking and thinking,and though I wasn't particularly impressed with the bake-off I understood the concept behind it,where others didn't.
To those who continued to condemn the issues,it's become a constant reminder that if all else fails they've still got these two issues in which to " have a go " about, regardless of the heading in question. In other words, it's become like another excuse to try and justify JB's guilt where there may just be a hint that there's a chance of his freedom---------------as in this particular thread regarding possible suicide notes.
" We'll just throw in the bake-off and graveside card ",mentality. I call it diversity.
They need to convince celebrities of JBs innocence, and those celebrities need to be strong minded and vocal about it.
If it was not for Jonny Depp and Metallica. The West Memphis Three would still be in prison today.
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They need to convince celebrities of JBs innocence, and those celebrities need to be strong minded and vocal about it.
If it was not for Jonny Depp and Metallica. The West Memphis Three would still be in prison today.
Yes I agree, it needs a strong voice and someone not afraid to speak out,like actor Brian Blessed or Terry Waite who'd had experience of being held hostage against his will.
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Whether or not Trudi's idea's of the bake-off and the graveside were the best ways of channeling publicity,it worked. It got people talking and thinking,and though I wasn't particularly impressed with the bake-off I understood the concept behind it,where others didn't.
To those who continued to condemn the issues,it's become a constant reminder that if all else fails they've still got these two issues in which to " have a go " about, regardless of the heading in question. In other words, it's become like another excuse to try and justify JB's guilt where there may just be a hint that there's a chance of his freedom---------------as in this particular thread regarding possible suicide notes.
" We'll just throw in the bake-off and graveside card ",mentality. I call it diversity.
I haven't mentioned the Bake Off once and have stuck to the topic. You can't claim every pience of paper found at the scene are suicide notes with any degree of credibility. The note in the bible was supposed to be a suicide note, turns out it was a note written by June. The letters and numbers note found on the bedside cabinet was supposed to be a suicide note, police labled it as such and then described it as 'Illegible'. The 'illegible' note was the one given the ref DRH/42. People can pretend that these notes were found at the scene but there is no evidence of that and as Jan has said, she asked Jeremy about them and he said he didn't believe they were found at the scene or that they were written by Sheila. The CT have done their own translation but suggesting a particular word say's 'blood' when it clearly say's 'dirt' doesn't win them any favours but I guess that's why they haven't posted the notes on the OS.
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I haven't mentioned the Bake Off once and have stuck to the topic. You can't claim every pience of paper found at the scene are suicide notes with any degree of credibility. The note in the bible was supposed to be a suicide note, turns out it was a note written by June. The letters and numbers note found on the bedside cabinet was supposed to be a suicide note, police labled it as such and then described it as 'Illegible'. The 'illegible' note was the one given the ref DRH/42. People can pretend that these notes were found at the scene but there is no evidence of that and as Jan has said, she asked Jeremy about them and he said he didn't believe they were found at the scene or that they were written by Sheila. The CT have done their own translation but suggesting a particular word say's 'blood' when it clearly say's 'dirt' doesn't win them any favours but I guess that's why they haven't posted the notes on the OS.
I didn't say that you personally had mentioned the bake-off,but you certainly agreed with that which Mat wrote,as he'd mentioned it.
However,because there appears to be more notes than we've seen,it's very possible that " blood " would have been mentioned because anyone with half an eye would see the difference in the two written words of " blood " and " dirt ".
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I haven't mentioned the Bake Off once and have stuck to the topic. You can't claim every pience of paper found at the scene are suicide notes with any degree of credibility. The note in the bible was supposed to be a suicide note, turns out it was a note written by June. The letters and numbers note found on the bedside cabinet was supposed to be a suicide note, police labled it as such and then described it as 'Illegible'. The 'illegible' note was the one given the ref DRH/42. People can pretend that these notes were found at the scene but there is no evidence of that and as Jan has said, she asked Jeremy about them and he said he didn't believe they were found at the scene or that they were written by Sheila. The CT have done their own translation but suggesting a particular word say's 'blood' when it clearly say's 'dirt' doesn't win them any favours but I guess that's why they haven't posted the notes on the OS.
As you know I am doubting these notes - however why would the police record "suicide" note on a piece of paper on numbers and please written on it? Why did they just not say note with numbers and scribbles. Does not really make sense.
Personally having with hours( with others) spent trying to decipher the notes I would not bother until a handwriting expert determines if Sheila could have written it. Then we would need to know for sure where it was found.
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As you know I am doubting these notes - however why would the police record "suicide" note on a piece of paper on numbers and please written on it? Why did they just not say note with numbers and scribbles. Does not really make sense.
Personally having with hours( with others) spent trying to decipher the notes I would not bother until a handwriting expert determines if Sheila could have written it. Then we would need to know for sure where it was found.
Because the note was found on her bedside table and they knew she had mental health problems. They later decided it was illegible. They questioned the fact that it MAY have been a suicide note.
I agree Jan, there is no point in accepting they are suicide notes until there is evidence of that. It is crucial to know where they were found as that might suggest when they were written.
When you asked JB about them, can you remember exactly what he said?
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Because the note was found on her bedside table and they knew she had mental health problems. They later decided it was illegible. They questioned the fact that it MAY have been a suicide note.
I agree Jan, there is no point in accepting they are suicide notes until there is evidence of that. It is crucial to know where they were found as that might suggest when they were written.
When you asked JB about them, can you remember exactly what he said?
No , and I am not sure whether I kept the correspondence , but it was basically what I said , he did not recognise the writing and he had no proof of the source.
I personally think this is the campaign team trying to eliminate or include them as appropriate . Ok fair enough , but going to the press? Sorry I don't agree with that .
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Maybe the letters went to the press in the hope that there would be a response of sorts from those who attended the investigation ?
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Maybe the letters went to the press in the hope that there would be a response of sorts from those who attended the investigation ?
If EP have kept quiet about every question they have been asked so far then I don't think they are going to come forward now. And if this is proved not to be Sheila's writing then I think going to the press will make the CT team look bad. Just get it tested first. if they know the source definitely, then I think to raise the money would not be difficult , but I don't think they do.
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If EP have kept quiet about every question they have been asked so far then I don't think they are going to come forward now. And if this is proved not to be Sheila's writing then I think going to the press will make the CT team look bad. Just get it tested first. if they know the source definitely, then I think to raise the money would not be difficult , but I don't think they do.
Oh dear,putting the cart before the horse is never good really,unless there is a strong argument about it being Sheila's handwriting,which can be compared by a mere layman if there are other letters to compare them to.
I don't really understand the use of forensics to carry out this task though,except that it would be a guarantee that they were authentic using a signature of proof.
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Oh dear,putting the cart before the horse is never good really,unless there is a strong argument about it being Sheila's handwriting,which can be compared by a mere layman if there are other letters to compare them to.
I don't really understand the use of forensics to carry out this task though,except that it would be a guarantee that they were authentic using a signature of proof.
I think they would need a professional opinion because just a side by side comparison may not be enough.
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I think they would need a professional opinion because just a side by side comparison may not be enough.
They used to be known as handwriting experts,forensics didn't come into it. That's where the high fee comes in. :(
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They used to be known as handwriting experts,forensics didn't come into it. That's where the high fee comes in. :(
Who knows perhaps there will be forensics on the paper as well ? I guess there would be prints? But I have no idea how long after the event they would be traceable ?
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Who knows perhaps there will be forensics on the paper as well ? I guess there would be prints? But I have no idea how long after the event they would be traceable ?
I thought of fingerprints myself at first,but if they've been handled by various people then that cancels that out straightaway. I suppose the only possibility is whether the same pen/biro is found to be on other notes/letters written in Sheila's hand.
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I thought of fingerprints myself at first,but if they've been handled by various people then that cancels that out straightaway. I suppose the only possibility is whether the same pen/biro is found to be on other notes/letters written in Sheila's hand.
Oh I don't know if the police found the note surely they used gloves??????
Some hope.
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I think the main issue regarding these notes is that they need confirmation of sheila mental state and anyone who looks at them know that they are written by someone very unstable. They need it confirmed that it is shields handwriting and then another expert to give an opinion on her mental state. Either way if they get that that's something else they can include in the next appeal.
I can't see how any of us can deny that if confirmed they were written by shiela and were recent they show that shiela really was still very unwell.
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Oh I don't know if the police found the note surely they used gloves??????
Some hope.
Some hope indeed. ::)
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I think the main issue regarding these notes is that they need confirmation of sheila mental state and anyone who looks at them know that they are written by someone very unstable. They need it confirmed that it is shields handwriting and then another expert to give an opinion on her mental state. Either way if they get that that's something else they can include in the next appeal.
I can't see how any of us can deny that if confirmed they were written by shiela and were recent they show that shiela really was still very unwell.
I agree with that.
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I think the main issue regarding these notes is that they need confirmation of sheila mental state and anyone who looks at them know that they are written by someone very unstable. They need it confirmed that it is shields handwriting and then another expert to give an opinion on her mental state. Either way if they get that that's something else they can include in the next appeal.
I can't see how any of us can deny that if confirmed they were written by shiela and were recent they show that shiela really was still very unwell.
Yes,I can go along with that.
Mental health is really horrendous as I've just learned that someone I've known for years has had to be sectioned and has been an in-patient for quite some time. There was no indication whatsoever a year ago that there was anything wrong.A clever woman who was part of the family and who now doesn't recognise her own son. Absolutely tragic. Granted,she's getting on in years but it still doesn't excuse the suddeness in which the illness had developed or appeared. It's frightening. Her son lives with her and had just mentioned about her having been " a bit down " but he'd put it down to the anniversary of her husband's death some years ago.
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I think the main issue regarding these notes is that they need confirmation of sheila mental state and anyone who looks at them know that they are written by someone very unstable. They need it confirmed that it is shields handwriting and then another expert to give an opinion on her mental state. Either way if they get that that's something else they can include in the next appeal.
I can't see how any of us can deny that if confirmed they were written by shiela and were recent they show that shiela really was still very unwell.
And if they weren't?
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if I was 100% convinced they were found in the house on the day of the murders then I would pay the money myself just to shut you all up ! ;D
there you are Mike a challenge to you .
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I like that. :)) :)) :))
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if I was 100% convinced they were found in the house on the day of the murders then I would pay the money myself just to shut you all up ! ;D
there you are Mike a challenge to you .
I'd give you half if I thought they were kosher.
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I'd give you half if I thought they were kosher.
As they were supposed to turn up in the colp investigation I might have a search around
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If Sheila was not able to write a legible note, I'm not sure how she managed a terminator type massacre.
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It seems Trudies weekly vlogs have stopped.
Not because there is nothing to discuss. There is lots to discuss. But because it was doing more harm than good.
A new tactic is perhaps to make outrageous claims to the media. If a national newspaper bites, it creates publicity and discussion.
Everyone knows Sheila didn't write a suicide note, pages long between 3.26am - 3.48am. However a CT member getting this claim into a newspaper will give supporters something to cling onto.
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It seems Trudies weekly vlogs have stopped.
Not because there is nothing to discuss. There is lots to discuss. But because it was doing more harm than good.
A new tactic is perhaps to make outrageous claims to the media. If a national newspaper bites, it creates publicity and discussion.
Everyone knows Sheila didn't write a suicide note, pages long between 3.26am - 3.48am. However a CT member getting this claim into a newspaper will give supporters something to cling onto.
That's because Sheila remained alive until police began the raid. Plenty of time to write a suicide note several pages long.
The timings of post mortem hypostasis and the uncoagulated blood on Shelia's neck prove this.
(https://s11.postimg.org/k7kqkux77/livcompare2.jpg)
(https://s14.postimg.org/d6xcaayi9/timeofonset.jpg)
PSM/SLI/SMM/BAMBER
3 August 2005
Secretary of State for the
Home Department,
2 Marsham Street,
London, SW1P 4DF
And By Fax : 020 7035 4745
Dear Sirs,
Re: Jeremy BAMBER
Application for Prerogative of Pardon
We act for Mr. Jeremy Bamber whom, as you will be personally aware, was convicted on the 28th October 1986 of five counts of murder by a majority verdict of 10 to 2 following a 19 day trial in the Crown Court at Chelmsford before Mr. Justice Drake and a jury.
He was sentenced to life imprisonment with a recommendation that he serve a minimum of 25 years.
Pursuant to his trial he sought Leave to Appeal against his Conviction but his Application was refused on the papers by the Single Judge and on the 20th March 1989 the Full Court, presided over by the then Lord Chief Justice Lane, heard his renewed Application for Leave.
The Court dismissed the said Application.
Under Section 9 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1995 the Criminal Cases Review Commission referred the matter back to the Court of Appeal and on the 12th December 2002 Lord Justice Kay delivered a 100 page Judgement dismissing the said appeal.
It is of course true to say that the matter is currently again with the Criminal Cases Review Commission on new evidence based upon the abysmal failure on behalf of the Crown Prosecution Service and, more importantly, the Essex Police in disclosure.
It is correct to say that perhaps slightly less than one quarter of the 4 million or so documents still have not been disclosed to the Defence, although in the 38 boxes of papers that we received, it is also true to say there were a number of documents and, more importantly, photographs contained within which did not form part of the Defence papers either at (a) trial (b) the 1989 appeal and (c) the 2002 appeal.
Applications have been made to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and, as we have stated, it is absolutely correct to state that those investigations are ongoing. However, certain information has recently come to light which concerns a photograph which was discovered by ourselves amongst the papers, namely a post mortem photograph of Sheila Caffell’s wounds and the blood flow from her neck taking into consideration that the said blood flow was fresh and certainly, as per the photograph, could be deemed to be extremely recent.
That is a subject matter which is attracting the attention of the Criminal Cases Review Commission.
On the 28th July 2005 amongst the papers was discovered a Witness Statement from PC Peter Woodcock ATS 426 which, although dated 20th September 1985, refers to his visit to the scene of the crime at 7.34 am in the morning. In short this Witness Statement which, whilst we cannot be 100% certain did not form part of the trial bundle, certainly must be deemed corroborative of the photograph that we discovered which definitely did not form part of the trial bundle.
PC Woodcock states the following :
“She had what appeared to be two bullet holes under her chin and blood leaking from both sides of her mouth down her cheeks”.
This Statement clearly is corroborative to the photographs of Sheila Caffell with blood leaking down from her neck which we submitted to the Commission and which, at the cost of being again repetitive, there was a clear and distinct failure on the part of the Crown to disclose to the Defence.
The Statement of PC Woodcock who was the first officer to enter the house at 7.34 am states that there was “blood leaking from both sides of her mouth down her cheeks”. We know from his Witness Statement this was at 7.34 am. We also know from common medical knowledge that blood flowing the way that (a) the photograph proves and (b) evidence by the Statement of PC Woodcock, namely of leaking and or flowing, clearly confirms that at a very maximum, the time of death must have been 1 ½ hours from the time of either (a) the discovery of the body which was within 10 minutes of 7.34 am or (b) the photograph which we know was taken between 8.30 and 9.20 am on the said day of the tragedy.
That being the case and that evidence now being available, quite frankly, make it impossible for our client to have been responsible for the said murders.
Quite apart from this, there are the radio and telephone logs, again that were not disclosed to the Defence and to which the Chief Prosecutor, Mr. Anthony Arlidge QC has written to us confirming that he has never had sight of the said logs, which show (a) that at approximately 5.24 am there was conversation and movement by the police with someone inside the house, and (b) that upon entry to the house there was a “dead male and dead female body in the kitchen”.
The Prosecution allege that Sheila Caffell was found upstairs but the documents by the police, which they failed to disclose not only to the Defence but also to their own Prosecutor, tell a very different story.
The questions to be asked are that if indeed Sheila Caffell was found downstairs, how she then found herself upstairs by the time that PC Woodcock allegedly states that he found her.
Quite apart from the deplorable state of affairs and the fact that our client has now been 20 years in prison for a crime that it is evidently clear now by (a) the photographic evidence that the Crown failed to disclose, and (b) the corroboration of the blood flow by PC Woodcock in a Statement dated almost a year after the event and which, as we have stated, whilst we cannot be 100% certain was not disclosed, certainly the amount of documentation still covertly maintained by the Crown, over 600,000 pieces of paper, goes to the heart of the merits of our request.
It is of course true to say, as we have already perhaps overstated, that there is an Application to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and that, ultimately, this matter may find itself back to the Court of Appeal. Nevertheless, our client continues to be in custody and, as you will also be aware, last year was savagely attacked with a knife by an inmate for reasons that have never really been ascertained and which the Authorities almost invariably were aware that the assailant was a man of extreme danger.
In short, our client continues his detention, notwithstanding all of the above factors because perhaps there is really no system upon which any Authority, even the Crown Prosecution Service, the Police or the Court, can effect a release without the implementation of the 1995 Criminal Appeal Act and the Criminal Cases Review Commission making a referral.
In all the circumstances, we take the view that the appropriate course is for the Secretary of State for the Home Department in the exercise of his Prerogative Powers to grant a Pardon.
The exercise of this Prerogative Power to Pardon does not necessarily have to be a free pardon but can be conditional or in the form of a remission or a partial remission of sentence :
R –v- Secretary of State for the Home Department. Ex p. Bentley [1994] QB 349. Moreover, the Crown may exercise the prerogative right of granting a reprieve, which can be effected by announcing its pleasure in any way: 2 Hale PC 412. Since at least 1830 constitutionally the Crown has acted in the matter of reprieve on the uncontrolled responsibility of the Home Secretary: see Mackintosh “The British Cabinet” (2nd Ed) page 328 note 4; Sir Edward Troup “The Home Office” (Whitehall series) Chapter V. (referred to in Halsbury’s Laws of England 4th Ed Volume 8(2) paragraph 825, footnote1).
We are of course aware that this is perhaps one of the most high profile cases in recent British criminal history and that, according to papers we have seen, the Director of Public Prosecutions and Attorney General and the then Secretary of State for the Home Department certainly played a role. There are no allegations of misfeasance in public office save that there is clearly reference to the fact that the Secretary of State was made aware of the events from the beginning and was copied on correspondence between the then Prosecution, which was initiated in those days by the police, although there is no evidence that after 2002 the Secretary of State played any part in this whatsoever, other than of course the role of fixing the tariff.
In light of this evidence and in light of the way upon which matters have progressed and clearly the unsatisfactory situation on disclosure and the evidence found by ourselves and submitted to the Criminal Cases Review Commission now clearly suggest that Jeremy Bamber is not only technically and as a matter of law not guilty of these offences (the sheer size of the 600,000 or more pages of documents which the Crown failed to disclose is in itself per se a point of appeal) but that the simple photograph at the scene of the crime taken of Sheila Caffell with blood pouring from her neck and now the corroboration from the police officer Woodcock confirming that “blood was leaking from both sides of her mouth down her cheeks” show that since Mr. Bamber was with the police from 3 am and the cause of death having been ascertained as two bullet wounds and the oozing, leaking, flowing of blood taken in evidence make it impossible for Jeremy Bamber to be factually guilty of murder.
The use of the prerogative pardon, it is conceded, must be one that is administered with care and consideration. There is a real anger and a real fear that if a serious miscarriage of justice continues to be done and the public confidence in the criminal justice system must be one that when the Crown or the Executive understand and realise that a potential miscarriage of justice is apparent and not remedied, then the implications for the Crown and the Executive can be reflected upon the public confidence in the criminal justice system.
It is for these reasons that the Secretary of State is required to adopt the prerogative of pardon with the proviso and the understanding that it is in the form of remission of sentence. The quest for Mr. Bamber continues with the Criminal Cases Review Commission and can indeed continue until such time as the courts make an ultimate decision.
In the case of Susan May, the Parole Board duly released Miss May on parole notwithstanding her continued protestations of innocence and continued application currently with the Criminal Cases Review Commission.
Under normal circumstances, we would ask, and we do so in the alternative, for the Secretary of State to refer the matter to the Parole Board in a similar manner to that of Susan May with a view to releasing Mr. Bamber on licence if the Secretary of State feels that the time has not yet arrived when the prerogative of pardon cam be adopted. That being so, our prime objective is to (a) place information before the Secretary of State and (b) a formal application for the Secretary of State to use the prerogative of pardon and release Mr. Bamber forthwith.
This will in no way, as we have stated, interfere with the current ongoing Application to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and, in our view and taking into consideration that within the 4 million or so documents, notwithstanding that over 600,000 documents have failed to be disclosed, but one critical key factor was never dealt with either during the time of the investigation, the trial, the two appeals and to date.
Professor Vanezis who was the pathologist never stated in his Report his opinion on the time of death. We would have thought this would have been crucial and critical but it is evidently clear that the pathologies at the scene of the crime having witnessed and seen and in fact ordering photographs to be taken, having seen blood flowing from the neck of Sheila Caffell and then invariably reviewing the Witness Statements of the police (save of course for the Witness Statement dated 20th September 1985 of PC Woodcock had not been disclosed to the pathologist and of course the close up photograph of Sheila Caffell not having been disclosed to the pathologist), he could never have failed to give even a basic estimate of time of death.
It is clear when one reviews the scene of crime photographs that, for example, on June Bamber there is undoubtedly dried blood by the time the photographs were taken. However Sheila Caffell was a different story which was in itself, without even precise medical qualification, shows to the untrained eye that the time of death was fairly recent, otherwise the blood would not be flowing or leaking.
Under those circumstances, it would be wholly wrong and inequitable for Jeremy Bamber to remain a single day longer in custody when there is this specific doubt. The only mechanism which allows our client’s release is either the grant of parole licence by the Parole Board (which can take up to nine months) or the prerogative of pardon by the Secretary of State.
Whilst of course, to coin a phrase, beggars cannot be choosers, and this is not a situation where such should be the case, we will of course accept an urgent and immediate referral to the Parole Board by the Secretary of State but the preferable and more obvious avenue is clearly that, in this case, the Secretary of State must apply the prerogative of pardon.
This we kindly request to be done on an urgent basis.
We take this opportunity of thanking you for your kind consideration.
Yours faithfully,
PAUL MARTIN & CO.
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If Sheila was not able to write a legible note, I'm not sure how she managed a terminator type massacre.
Have you actually read the note in question ? There is a lot of writing and a lot of words ? It may only be illegible because we are not seeing the original?
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Writing long posts in red will not convince anyone Sheila was alive until the raid team entered WHF.
But if she was, did she write the suicide note in her bedroom while the police were outside. Then go into the main bedroom to read the bible. Then shoot herself . Were the lights on in both those rooms ?
Then Sheila went into the kitchen to wait until the raid team entered. Why ? No one knows. Then went upstairs and shot herself.
Or did all this happen and then the police shot her, as Mike said.
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Writing long posts in red will not convince anyone Sheila was alive until the raid team entered WHF.
But if she was, did she write the suicide note in her bedroom while the police were outside. Then go into the main bedroom to read the bible. Then shoot herself . Were the lights on in both those rooms ?
Then go to the kitchen. Then wait until the raid team entered. Then go upstairs and shoot herself. Or did the police shoot her as Mike said.
She shot herself. It's the photos that matter.
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She shot herself. It's the photos that matter.
I thought the reason the police framed Bamber was because they did not want to admit they shot her. Although they had already got away with framing Sheila. For a month.
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Writing long posts in red will not convince anyone Sheila was alive until the raid team entered WHF.
But if she was, did she write the suicide note in her bedroom while the police were outside. Then go into the main bedroom to read the bible. Then shoot herself . Were the lights on in both those rooms ?
Then Sheila went into the kitchen to wait until the raid team entered. Why ? No one knows. Then went upstairs and shot herself.
Or did all this happen and then the police shot her, as Mike said.
Actually what David has posted is quite convincing. And as for your question only EP know the answer to that.
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I was given to understand that EP had to hand over requested files,etc once a court order had been implemented ?
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And if they weren't?
sorry only just came back online.
Well if they weren't written recently they clearly weren't suicide notes But they would still show shields mental state of mind.
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Writing long posts in red will not convince anyone Sheila was alive until the raid team entered WHF.
But if she was, did she write the suicide note in her bedroom while the police were outside. Then go into the main bedroom to read the bible. Then shoot herself . Were the lights on in both those rooms ?
Then Sheila went into the kitchen to wait until the raid team entered. Why ? No one knows. Then went upstairs and shot herself.
Or did all this happen and then the police shot her, as Mike said.
did you actually read David's post adam,? It's quite interesting, try reading it you might learn something
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I thought the reason the police framed Bamber was because they did not want to admit they shot her. Although they had already got away with framing Sheila. For a month.
I am not sure you do think that? Or have you changed your mind?
There are a lot of possible reasons why they changed track. All of which you are aware of.
After all if we knew the answers we would not be here discussing them would we?
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I am not sure you do think that? Or have you changed your mind?
There are a lot of possible reasons why they changed track. All of which you are aware of.
After all if we knew the answers we would not be here discussing them would we?
It would have to be a huge conspiracy for Police to change track including the recipients of Nevill's call plus those involved with staging Sheila's body, all at a time when their boss DCI Taff Jones was perfectly content with the four murders and a suicide theory.
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It would have to be a huge conspiracy for Police to change track including the recipients of Nevill's call plus those involved with staging Sheila's body, all at a time when their boss DCI Taff Jones was perfectly content with the four murders and a suicide theory.
Science can rule people out
Just like Jeremy is ruled about by reasons mentioned above. The same applies to the police they are ruled out because Sheila's wounds are contact wounds and the ammunition used matches the rifle on her body and not the police weapons.
This leaves just one person left and that is herself.
It is what it always has appeared to be, but many people badly wanted it to be another story and for the last 31 years they have succeeded. :(
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It would have to be a huge conspiracy for Police to change track including the recipients of Nevill's call plus those involved with staging Sheila's body, all at a time when their boss DCI Taff Jones was perfectly content with the four murders and a suicide theory.
Or just pressure from the family and the press when all their errors came to light. Perhaps they just did not want to look stupid twice? After all a lot of the evidence had been destroyed by them , or not treated properly , so they were in a difficult position.
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Science can rule people out
Just like Jeremy is ruled about by reasons mentioned above. The same applies to the police they are ruled out because Sheila's wounds are contact wounds and the ammunition used matches the rifle on her body and not the police weapons.
This leaves just one person left and that is herself.
It is what it always has appeared to be, but many people badly wanted it to be another story and for the last 31 years they have succeeded. :(
David do you really think:
1) Nevill telephoned his son in the middle of the night to say there was an emergency at the Farm which necessitated his son's diplomatic skills?
2) The Police on duty at Chelmsford deliberately concealed a telephone call from Nevill, which would confirm their boss's initial supposition that Sheila was the killer?
3) Jeremy loved his parents, was blissfully happy with his status at the Farm and had the patience to wait another twenty years for his inheritance, half of which would be shared with a sister he despised?
4) Sheila in the state she was in writing the letters(thanks to Adam for this point) was truly capable of loading a magazine, firing a gun, reloading a magazine, not missing with any of the bullets and all the other paraphernalia involving firearms which I cannot begin to think about?
5) That the gasman on the Monday who witnessed a typical placid domestic scene and Sheila after skipping along with her sons on the Farm perimeter on the Tuesday really had malice in her heart towards them?
6) That Julie, James Richards, Susan Battersby and Liz Rimington ,all of whose anecdotes condemn Jeremy from the words of his own mouth all lied because they had some secret vendetta against this nondescript Walter Mittty-like character who thought then and still thinks to this day that he did everyone a favour by destroying five lives in three generations of one family?
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David do you really think:
1) Nevill telephoned his son in the middle of the night to say there was an emergency at the Farm which necessitated his son's diplomatic skills?
2) The Police on duty at Chelmsford deliberately concealed a telephone call from Nevill, which would confirm their boss's initial supposition that Sheila was the killer?
3) Jeremy loved his parents, was blissfully happy with his status at the Farm and had the patience to wait another twenty years for his inheritance, half of which would be shared with a sister he despised?
4) Sheila in the state she was in writing the letters(thanks to Adam for this point) was truly capable of loading a magazine, firing a gun, reloading a magazine, not missing with any of the bullets and all the other paraphernalia involving firearms which I cannot begin to think about?
5) That the gasman on the Monday who witnessed a typical placid domestic scene and Sheila after skipping along with her sons on the Farm perimeter on the Tuesday really had malice in her heart towards them?
6) That Julie, James Richards, Susan Battersby and Liz Rimington ,all of whose anecdotes condemn Jeremy from the words of his own mouth all lied because they had some secret vendetta against this nondescript Walter Mittty-like character who thought then and still thinks to this day that he did everyone a favour by destroying five lives in three generations of one family?
good points excellent post steve
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David do you really think:
1) Nevill telephoned his son in the middle of the night to say there was an emergency at the Farm which necessitated his son's diplomatic skills?
2) The Police on duty at Chelmsford deliberately concealed a telephone call from Nevill, which would confirm their boss's initial supposition that Sheila was the killer?
3) Jeremy loved his parents, was blissfully happy with his status at the Farm and had the patience to wait another twenty years for his inheritance, half of which would be shared with a sister he despised?
4) Sheila in the state she was in writing the letters(thanks to Adam for this point) was truly capable of loading a magazine, firing a gun, reloading a magazine, not missing with any of the bullets and all the other paraphernalia involving firearms which I cannot begin to think about?
5) That the gasman on the Monday who witnessed a typical placid domestic scene and Sheila after skipping along with her sons on the Farm perimeter on the Tuesday really had malice in her heart towards them?
6) That Julie, James Richards, Susan Battersby and Liz Rimington ,all of whose anecdotes condemn Jeremy from the words of his own mouth all lied because they had some secret vendetta against this nondescript Walter Mittty-like character who thought then and still thinks to this day that he did everyone a favour by destroying five lives in three generations of one family?
All points you make except number two have to be true. as for number two I have already explained the possibilities
The idea of Neville ringing the police is not outrageous. Its either version A or version B
Version A - If Neville didn't call the police, it would mean they accidently wrote down the logs to make it appear Neville rang them.
Version B - If Neville did ring the police, It would mean the operators received a call from a "Jeremy Bamber" and a "Mr Bamber", In the mist of confusion believed "Mr Bamber" and "Jeremy Bamber" were the same caller when in fact "Mr Bamber" was Neville Bamber. Since both callers would describe the same situation and in short time intervals it would be possible mistake for the operators to make, specially at that time of night.
Simple 8)
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David do you really think:
1) Nevill telephoned his son in the middle of the night to say there was an emergency at the Farm which necessitated his son's diplomatic skills?
2) The Police on duty at Chelmsford deliberately concealed a telephone call from Nevill, which would confirm their boss's initial supposition that Sheila was the killer?
3) Jeremy loved his parents, was blissfully happy with his status at the Farm and had the patience to wait another twenty years for his inheritance, half of which would be shared with a sister he despised?
4) Sheila in the state she was in writing the letters(thanks to Adam for this point) was truly capable of loading a magazine, firing a gun, reloading a magazine, not missing with any of the bullets and all the other paraphernalia involving firearms which I cannot begin to think about?
5) That the gasman on the Monday who witnessed a typical placid domestic scene and Sheila after skipping along with her sons on the Farm perimeter on the Tuesday really had malice in her heart towards them?
6) That Julie, James Richards, Susan Battersby and Liz Rimington ,all of whose anecdotes condemn Jeremy from the words of his own mouth all lied because they had some secret vendetta against this nondescript Walter Mittty-like character who thought then and still thinks to this day that he did everyone a favour by destroying five lives in three generations of one family?
no3 does not need to be true either.
no6 has been proven even without evidence of JBs innocence
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no3 does not need to be true either.
no6 has been proven even without evidence of JBs innocence
It hasn't at all. All you have "proved" is that some of Julie's testimony was duplicated elsewhere, except that where it didn't match what was in the papers you've castigated her for that as well. You and your supporters just cannot bring yourselves to comprehend the kind of man we are dealing with here, which is why Jeremy was smiling to the female jurors almost thirty years ago as he stood in the dock with an air of overweening self-confidence at having committed the perfect crime, whilst Nevill, June, Sheila, Nicholas and Daniel lay silently in their graves waiting for somebody to speak up for them.
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It hasn't at all. All you have "proved" is that some of Julie's testimony was duplicated elsewhere, except that where it didn't match what was in the papers you've castigated her for that as well. You and your supporters just cannot bring yourselves to comprehend the kind of man we are dealing with here, which is why Jeremy was smiling to the female jurors almost thirty years ago as he stood in the dock with an air of overweening self-confidence at having committed the perfect crime, whilst Nevill, June, Sheila, Nicholas and Daniel lay silently in their graves waiting for somebody to speak up for them.
I find it odd that you refuse to challenge the forensics that exonerate the man. Then bring up minor extracts that have not only already been deemed unreliable but that in the end they prove little or nothing at all. Then you put forward a version of events that contradicts the forensics evidence you give no answer for. Then in the final bid to convince me you make an appeal to emotion. (A Logical Fallacy)
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I find it odd that you refuse to challenge the forensics that exonerate the man. Then bring up minor extracts that have not only already been deemed unreliable but that in the end they prove little or nothing at all. Then you put forward a version of events that contradicts the forensics evidence you give no answer for. Then in the final bid to convince me you make an appeal to emotion. (A Logical Fallacy)
But there is no forensic evidence which exonerates Jeremy. I don't recall any forensic evidence discussed in the 2002 appeal which had any credibility whatsoever. Far more to the point is the remoteness of Sheila ever having fired a gun and the pathetic story Jeremy spun that first morning at Goldhanger, which I advise you to reread and count the tissue of lies as you go along.
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But there is no forensic evidence which exonerates Jeremy. I don't recall any forensic evidence discussed in the 2002 appeal which had any credibility whatsoever. Far more to the point is the remoteness of Sheila ever having fired a gun and the pathetic story Jeremy spun that first morning at Goldhanger, which I advise you to reread and count the tissue of lies as you go along.
How about you read what I posted earlier today
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113)
And read it carefully and thoroughly
To be honest Steve I would much rather Jeremy be guilty, as he spent 30 years in Jail and him being innocent only compounds the tragedy, however following the evidence impartially I find his guilt is actually impossible.
You have put too much emotional investment in the idea of Sheila being a victim, So I find debating the facts with you rather difficult and rather pointless TBH. :-\
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How about you read what I posted earlier today
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113)
And read it carefully and thoroughly
To be honest Steve I would much rather Jeremy be guilty, as he spent 30 years in Jail and him being innocent only compounds the tragedy, however following the evidence impartially I find his guilt is actually impossible.
You have put too much emotional investment in the idea of Sheila being a victim, So I find debating the facts with you rather difficult and rather pointless TBH. :-\
I am not going to tit for tat with you as I am not on my first year's teaching practice. I see from an article here that livor mortis can be delayed by up to sixteen hours:
Lividity is a dark purple discoloration of the skin resulting from the gravitational pooling of blood in the veins and capillary beds of the dependent parts of the corpse. Synonyms include livor mortis, hypostasis, postmortem lividity, and, in the older literature, postmortem suggillations. Lividity is present in all corpses, although it may be inconspicuous in some. The med-icolegal importance of lividity lies in its color, as an indicator of cause of death, and in its distribution, as an indicator of body position. The development of livor is too variable to serve as a useful indicator ofthe postmortem interval, but the tradition of evaluating it remains entrenched in forensic practice.
Most authorities agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity, on average, at around 12 h postmortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed, i.e. confluent. Hypostasis begins to form immediately after death, but it may not be visible for some time. Ordinarily its earliest appearance, as dull red patches, is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 h. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and become confluent within 14 h postmortem, to reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h. Faint lividity may appear shortly before death in individuals with terminal circulatory failure. Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
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Livor as well as rigor can also be accelerated due to a person's activity prior to death. Such as Sheila running around,up and down stairs as adrenaline increases which has a reaction in the blood,so even if a timescale had been given to her death,it could have been later than the approximation.
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I am not going to tit for tat with you as I am not on my first year's teaching practice. I see from an article here that livor mortis can be delayed by up to sixteen hours:
Lividity is a dark purple discoloration of the skin resulting from the gravitational pooling of blood in the veins and capillary beds of the dependent parts of the corpse. Synonyms include livor mortis, hypostasis, postmortem lividity, and, in the older literature, postmortem suggillations. Lividity is present in all corpses, although it may be inconspicuous in some. The med-icolegal importance of lividity lies in its color, as an indicator of cause of death, and in its distribution, as an indicator of body position. The development of livor is too variable to serve as a useful indicator ofthe postmortem interval, but the tradition of evaluating it remains entrenched in forensic practice.
Most authorities agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity, on average, at around 12 h postmortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed, i.e. confluent. Hypostasis begins to form immediately after death, but it may not be visible for some time. Ordinarily its earliest appearance, as dull red patches, is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 h. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and become confluent within 14 h postmortem, to reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h. Faint lividity may appear shortly before death in individuals with terminal circulatory failure. Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
Excellent post Steve
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Steve has always written excellent posts.
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I am not going to tit for tat with you as I am not on my first year's teaching practice. I see from an article here that livor mortis can be delayed by up to sixteen hours:
Lividity is a dark purple discoloration of the skin resulting from the gravitational pooling of blood in the veins and capillary beds of the dependent parts of the corpse. Synonyms include livor mortis, hypostasis, postmortem lividity, and, in the older literature, postmortem suggillations. Lividity is present in all corpses, although it may be inconspicuous in some. The med-icolegal importance of lividity lies in its color, as an indicator of cause of death, and in its distribution, as an indicator of body position. The development of livor is too variable to serve as a useful indicator ofthe postmortem interval, but the tradition of evaluating it remains entrenched in forensic practice.
Most authorities agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity, on average, at around 12 h postmortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed, i.e. confluent. Hypostasis begins to form immediately after death, but it may not be visible for some time. Ordinarily its earliest appearance, as dull red patches, is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 h. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and become confluent within 14 h postmortem, to reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h. Faint lividity may appear shortly before death in individuals with terminal circulatory failure. Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
You seem to be forgetting that the reasons for it being delayed in rare circumstances do not apply to Shelia. She is not a child she is not elderly nor does she have chronic anemia. Caroline tried using these excuses, then when it became apparent to her that Sheila fits none of the criteria, She now refuses to answer the question. Because if she gives the only valid answer she will have to admit Jeremy is innocent.
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Scientifically it's obvious that L&R is quicker in someone who's been more active because of their overall circulation and health of the blood. As in Sheila having been a physically fit person,naturally any sign/s of either would be visible in quite a shorter space of time than that of someone who'd have been bedridden or inactive.
Veins,arteries and capillaries would have been clear of clots/plaque and other debris which tend to hold back the natural flow of blood settling to its lowest point.
It's a bit like " treading on a hosepipe " which interrupts the normal flow of water. The same applies to how blood reacts during free-flow or a medical condition which halts the natural flow so it's bound to take longer at the L&R stage.
I'll stick to the original notes that Sheila had only been dead a couple of hours,if that, before the team broke in
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Is it really impossible for us to have understanding for where each "side " is coming from ?
Is it not obvious that people are posting what they believe? Its so obvious that no one would defend a child killer unless they genuinely felt there had been a miscarriage of justice and on the opposite side posters of course feel that defending him is wrong because they think he is guilty.
Also Our impressions of his personality are just that -I have been speaking to someone who knew him who said that he was a polite well mannered young man and not a womaniser at all .
So try and stick to the facts - of which there are few and far between and have a bit of mutual respect.
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David do you really think:
1) Nevill telephoned his son in the middle of the night to say there was an emergency at the Farm which necessitated his son's diplomatic skills?
2) The Police on duty at Chelmsford deliberately concealed a telephone call from Nevill, which would confirm their boss's initial supposition that Sheila was the killer?
3) Jeremy loved his parents, was blissfully happy with his status at the Farm and had the patience to wait another twenty years for his inheritance, half of which would be shared with a sister he despised?
4) Sheila in the state she was in writing the letters(thanks to Adam for this point) was truly capable of loading a magazine, firing a gun, reloading a magazine, not missing with any of the bullets and all the other paraphernalia involving firearms which I cannot begin to think about?
5) That the gasman on the Monday who witnessed a typical placid domestic scene and Sheila after skipping along with her sons on the Farm perimeter on the Tuesday really had malice in her heart towards them?
6) That Julie, James Richards, Susan Battersby and Liz Rimington ,all of whose anecdotes condemn Jeremy from the words of his own mouth all lied because they had some secret vendetta against this nondescript Walter Mittty-like character who thought then and still thinks to this day that he did everyone a favour by destroying five lives in three generations of one family?
looking at a film of the house and knowing that the family also had other properties I would think that risking life in jail against waiting for his share of what was a large inheritance does not make any sense .
I know what you will say to that though.
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I never could see Jeremy in that light. Even the grannie's days were numbered at the time and though a share of her estate would have gone to June,Jeremy would have known that for the rest of his life he'd have been comfortable anyway. He wasn't the type to have risked his future at that stage.In all honesty the thought of " seeing off " his whole family would not have entered his head.
This case wasn't about money,properties or assets !
Nobody will like this either !
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looking at a film of the house and knowing that the family also had other properties I would think that risking life in jail against waiting for his share of what was a large inheritance does not make any sense .
I know what you will say to that though.
Steve applies a nonsensical inequitable prejudice against Jeremy
For example Jeremy saying "it's important to have money whilst you're young" is considered to be watertight and damning evidence.
However when it comes to Sheila saying "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed" there is some excuse or another to render it irrelevant.
Had the term "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed" been applied to Jeremy instead of Sheila. I have no doubt that it would form part of Steve's principal reasons to justify his position on guilt.
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Exactly,David.
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Is it really impossible for us to have understanding for where each "side " is coming from ?
Is it not obvious that people are posting what they believe? Its so obvious that no one would defend a child killer unless they genuinely felt there had been a miscarriage of justice and on the opposite side posters of course feel that defending him is wrong because they think he is guilty.
Also Our impressions of his personality are just that -I have been speaking to someone who knew him who said that he was a polite well mannered young man and not a womaniser at all .
So try and stick to the facts - of which there are few and far between and have a bit of mutual respect.
justice has also spoken to people who know jb ,a priest and a pyschiatrist who both claim he is guilty and very cunning.you can ask him when he returns from holiday
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I never could see Jeremy in that light. Even the grannie's days were numbered at the time and though a share of her estate would have gone to June,Jeremy would have known that for the rest of his life he'd have been comfortable anyway. He wasn't the type to have risked his future at that stage.In all honesty the thought of " seeing off " his whole family would not have entered his head.
This case wasn't about money,properties or assets !
Nobody will like this either !
yes it was all about a mentaly ill woman who killed members of her family
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Steve applies a nonsensical inequitable prejudice against Jeremy
For example Jeremy saying "it's important to have money whilst you're young" is considered to be watertight and damning evidence.
However when it comes to Sheila saying "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed" there is some excuse or another to render it irrelevant.
Had the term "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed" been applied to Jeremy instead of Sheila. I have no doubt that it would form part of Steve's principal reasons to justify his position on guilt.
Perhaps we could weigh up Sheila's comment against Jeremy's, when he tells RWB that he could easily kill his parents.
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Perhaps we could weigh up Sheila's comment against Jeremy's, when he tells RWB that he could easily kill his parents.
If Jeremy is innocent then we can probably assume that this is not true and was said to blacken jeremys character - it is I believe one persons word against another.
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justice has also spoken to people who know jb ,a priest and a pyschiatrist who both claim he is guilty and very cunning.you can ask him when he returns from holiday
I have spoken to justice in the past thank you.
All I was pointing out is there are varying opinions about Jeremy . As confirmed by several witnesses in several books as well.
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If Jeremy is innocent then we can probably assume that this is not true and was said to blacken jeremys character - it is I believe one persons word against another.
BW and RWB aren't generally considered to be reliable witnesses on this forum so perhaps both comments should be treated with some caution?
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Neville phones Jeremy.....Neville phones Police......Neville done a lot of phoning on the night of the murders, and all whilst havoc was occurring in the house! I don't think so!
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Neville phones Jeremy.....Neville phones Police......Neville done a lot of phoning on the night of the murders, and all whilst havoc was occurring in the house! I don't think so!
If life threatening havoc was occurring in your house and you felt you could not handle the situation what would you do Romeo?
If I was in a house full of strangers id run out the house and over hills to safety, But if it was my family id have to call for help, running from the scene is not an option in that situation
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Neville phones Jeremy.....Neville phones Police......Neville done a lot of phoning on the night of the murders, and all whilst havoc was occurring in the house! I don't think so!
The second call does not have to have taken place for Jeremy to be innocent?
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If life threatening havoc was occurring in your house and you felt you could not handle the situation what would you do Romeo?
If I was in a house full of strangers id run out the house and over hills to safety, But if it was my family id have to call for help, running from the scene is not an option in that situation
If life threatening havoc was occurrng in my house I certainly wouldn't stand phoning anyone! Anyone with an iota of sense would do what they could and try to stop it!
What do you think was happening whilst Neville was on the phone? Was the killer just standing waiting until Neville had finished both phone calls.... of course not! In this type of situation split minute decisions are made.... there is no time to make phone calls...JB is lying.
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If life threatening havoc was occurrng in my house I certainly wouldn't stand phoning anyone! Anyone with an iota of sense would do what they could and try to stop it!
What do you think was happening whilst Neville was on the phone? Was the killer just standing waiting until Neville had finished both phone calls.... of course not! In this type of situation split minute decisions are made.... there is no time to make phone calls...JB is lying.
Your answer contradicts the question.
You feel you cannot handle the situation thus don't believe you can stop it so you call for help.
What do I think Neville was doing? I have explained that here
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7861.msg372798.html#msg372798 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7861.msg372798.html#msg372798)
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The second call does not have to have taken place for Jeremy to be innocent?
Oh but the supposed phone call to the police was important in the fact that JB insisted both he and his father had rung the police on the night of the murders..... One phone call to the Police would have been enough, but no..JB had to try and prove he was at home so said his father had rung him as well.
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Your answer contradicts the question.
You feel you cannot handle the situation thus don't believe you can stop it so you call for help.
What do I think Neville was doing? I have explained that here
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7861.msg372798.html#msg372798 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7861.msg372798.html#msg372798)
David, what you can't or don't want to see is the fact havoc was happening in that house that night, and according to JB...Sheila was going mad with a gun.... it is therefore stupid to say whilst all this was going on Neville rang JB! Why would Neville ring JB if he had rung the police? Why would Neville ring the Police if he'd rung JB..... it's common sense that there just wasn't time!
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David, what you can't or don't want to see is the fact havoc was happening in that house that night, and according to JB...Sheila was going mad with a gun.... it is therefore stupid to say whilst all this was going on Neville rang JB! Why would Neville ring JB if he had rung the police? Why would Neville ring the Police if he'd rung JB..... it's common sense that there just wasn't time!
On the contrary. Sheila has to go to the office cupboard reload the rifle plus there are other targets in the house. For all you know she could have locked herself in a room with the gun and was threatning to kill herself after dispatching the twins. This prompts Neville to call for assistance. Also its not necessary for Neville to call the police BTW. You fail to consider the variables
What you cant or don't want to see is this
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113)
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Neville phones Jeremy.....Neville phones Police......Neville done a lot of phoning on the night of the murders, and all whilst havoc was occurring in the house! I don't think so!
:)) :)) ;)
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Your scenario of Sheila's movements on the night just doesn't hold water!
On the contrary. Sheila has to go to the office cupboard reload the rifle plus there are other targets in the house. For all you know she could have locked herself in a room with the gun and was threatning to kill herself after dispatching the twins. This prompts Neville to call for assistance. Also its not necessary for Neville to call the police BTW. You fail to consider the variables
What you cant or don't want to see is this
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113)
David, your scenario of Sheila's movements on the night just doesn't hold water with me! You assume the phone was in the position it was found earlier in the evening, there were 12 rifle cartridges/bullets found in the main bedroom, and one on the landing. indicating Nevelle was shot 4 times in the bedroom. The box of rifle cartridges were on the kitchen unit, not in the cupboard.
Then of course we have the liver mortis....your baby... Sorry David, but it looks like your reading the wrong info there.
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On the contrary. Sheila has to go to the office cupboard reload the rifle plus there are other targets in the house. For all you know she could have locked herself in a room with the gun and was threatning to kill herself after dispatching the twins. This prompts Neville to call for assistance. Also its not necessary for Neville to call the police BTW. You fail to consider the variables
What you cant or don't want to see is this
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7866.msg374113.html#msg374113)
sheila does not need to go to any cupboard because jb very kindly loaded the rifle for her and also left the rest of the contents of that ammo box on the side board .when asked about the ammo.he said the box was full or nearly full .than they pointed out to him there was too many bullets left on the side for sheila to have fired 25 shots useing the ammo from that box.interestingly he said he couldnt explain that and i dont know how that came about.he did not say sheila could have used some bullets from the office cupboard
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Oh but the supposed phone call to the police was important in the fact that JB insisted both he and his father had rung the police on the night of the murders..... One phone call to the Police would have been enough, but no..JB had to try and prove he was at home so said his father had rung him as well.
Correct me if I am wrong but he only said that when the discrepancy in the logs came to light and I guess he thought it made sense because he had tried to call his father back and the line was engaged? Because he would not know what had happened between his father calling him and him arriving at whf would he?
So in his ordinal statements he never said his father had definitely called the police did he? That was never claimed?
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David, what you can't or don't want to see is the fact havoc was happening in that house that night, and according to JB...Sheila was going mad with a gun.... it is therefore stupid to say whilst all this was going on Neville rang JB! Why would Neville ring JB if he had rung the police? Why would Neville ring the Police if he'd rung JB..... it's common sense that there just wasn't time!
How do you those words did not mean she was threatening to kill herself? There was no mention of anyone being shot ?
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sheila does not need to go to any cupboard because jb very kindly loaded the rifle for her and also left the rest of the contents of that ammo box on the side board .when asked about the ammo.he said the box was full or nearly full .than they pointed out to him there was too many bullets left on the side for sheila to have fired 25 shots useing the ammo from that box.interestingly he said he couldnt explain that and i dont know how that came about.he did not say sheila could have used some bullets from the office cupboard
So in this meticulously planned crime , in which he planned every call to the minute , his alibis , the destruction of all forensic evidence connecting him to the crime ( there was none) he missed the ammunition and the silencer which are the two most important things . really ?
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So in this meticulously planned crime , in which he planned every call to the minute , his alibis , the destruction of all forensic evidence connecting him to the crime ( there was none) he missed the ammunition and the silencer which are the two most important things . really ?
He didn't pan every call to the minute, he let slip that he called Julie before the police and has given different times for when he called the police.
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He didn't pan every call to the minute, he let slip that he called Julie before the police and has given different times for when he called the police.
Or in the panic and shock of everything he just forgot.
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sheila does not need to go to any cupboard because jb very kindly loaded the rifle for her and also left the rest of the contents of that ammo box on the side board .when asked about the ammo.he said the box was full or nearly full .than they pointed out to him there was too many bullets left on the side for sheila to have fired 25 shots useing the ammo from that box.interestingly he said he couldnt explain that and i dont know how that came about.he did not say sheila could have used some bullets from the office cupboard
Yes she does. The untouched ammunition on the table shows she had to go the gun cupboard. Infact its very possible Neville or June put the rifle away, so in that scenario when Sheila goes to get the gun she knows of an alternative source of ammunition. Having grown up on the property she would be all to familiar.
he did not say sheila could have used some bullets from the office cupboard because he didn't have clue what happened or how events unfolded.
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Perhaps we could weigh up Sheila's comment against Jeremy's, when he tells RWB that he could easily kill his parents.
Except that nobody was present to verify whether that was said or not. Just ask yourself who are people going to believe-------------exactly !
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Yes she does. The untouched ammunition on the table shows she had to go the gun cupboard. Infact its very possible Neville or June put the rifle away, so in that scenario when Sheila goes to get the gun she knows of an alternative source of ammunition. Having grown up on the property she would be all to familiar.
he did not say sheila could have used some bullets from the office cupboard because he didn't have clue what happened or how events unfolded.
It's about one of the only consistent statements that more than one person said the guns would always be put away at night ( although not locked away) so the whole scenario of Jeremy leaving the rifle out on purpose was a nonsense . And I understand there was ammunition in the cupboard with the gun .
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Yes she does. The untouched ammunition on the table shows she had to go the gun cupboard. Infact its very possible Neville or June put the rifle away, so in that scenario when Sheila goes to get the gun she knows of an alternative source of ammunition. Having grown up on the property she would be all to familiar.
he did not say sheila could have used some bullets from the office cupboard because he didn't have clue what happened or how events unfolded.
did the police find any loose bullets or empty cartridge boxes realating to the murder weapon apart from the bullets on the side board.i also disagree that sheila would know where to find alternative source of ammo let alone how to load a mag and prime the weapon
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Is it really impossible for us to have understanding for where each "side " is coming from ?
Is it not obvious that people are posting what they believe? Its so obvious that no one would defend a child killer unless they genuinely felt there had been a miscarriage of justice and on the opposite side posters of course feel that defending him is wrong because they think he is guilty.
Also Our impressions of his personality are just that -I have been speaking to someone who knew him who said that he was a polite well mannered young man and not a womaniser at all .
So try and stick to the facts - of which there are few and far between and have a bit of mutual respec
great post jan
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great post jan
I second that,a good post.
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Correct me if I am wrong but he only said that when the discrepancy in the logs came to light and I guess he thought it made sense because he had tried to call his father back and the line was engaged? Because he would not know what had happened between his father calling him and him arriving at whf would he?
So in his ordinal statements he never said his father had definitely called the police did he? That was never claimed?
Of course you’re right Jan, JB didn’t say his father had rung the police until the discrepancy over the police logs came to light. But JB knew only too well that his father couldn’t have rung the Police, which is why the Police Logs were questioned by JB’s team after JB queried them. It suited JB to then claim his father had rung the Police by pointing out the address of WHF on one of the Logs, this of course was the address JB gave the Police himself of where the incident had taken place, plus the name of his father on initially ringing the police with the information.
Going back to the phone calls, JB’s plan was to ring the Police saying that his father had rung him…just one phone call…. phone then off hook. But after the Logs were queried JB claimed that two phone calls were made. This proved a wrong decision, as it wasn’t possible for NB to make two phone calls at the same time….
03 26 am NB rings JB ( ten minutes later JB rings Police) 03.36am JB rings Police
03.26 am NB rings Police LOG
The first phone call Police log made by JB states at bottom of log …message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber.
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Of course you’re right Jan, JB didn’t say his father had rung the police until the discrepancy over the police logs came to light. But JB knew only too well that his father couldn’t have rung the Police, which is why the Police Logs were questioned by JB’s team after JB queried them. It suited JB to then claim his father had rung the Police by pointing out the address of WHF on one of the Logs, this of course was the address JB gave the Police himself of where the incident had taken place, plus the name of his father on initially ringing the police with the information.
Going back to the phone calls, JB’s plan was to ring the Police saying that his father had rung him…just one phone call…. phone then off hook. But after the Logs were queried JB claimed that two phone calls were made. This proved a wrong decision, as it wasn’t possible for NB to make two phone calls at the same time….
03 26 am NB rings JB ( ten minutes later JB rings Police) 03.36am JB rings Police
03.26 am NB rings Police LOG
The first phone call Police log made by JB states at bottom of log …message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber.
I agree with most of what you say but Jeremy said Neville rang at 03:10.
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How do you those words did not mean she was threatening to kill herself? There was no mention of anyone being shot ?
I don't think that there was a call from NB to JB. Or come to that a call from NB to the Police. We only have JB's word that it happened at all. ( See further post regarding this )
In fact I believe the only phone call made that night was from JB to the Police.
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I agree with most of what you say but Jeremy said Neville rang at 03:10.
OK Caroline :) But wasn't it around 3.10 am that JB was supposed to have rung Julie? Damn clocks were either fast or slow that night! ;D
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Your scenario of Sheila's movements on the night just doesn't hold water!
David, your scenario of Sheila's movements on the night just doesn't hold water with me! You assume the phone was in the position it was found earlier in the evening, there were 12 rifle cartridges/bullets found in the main bedroom, and one on the landing. indicating Nevelle was shot 4 times in the bedroom. The box of rifle cartridges were on the kitchen unit, not in the cupboard.
Then of course we have the liver mortis....your baby... Sorry David, but it looks like your reading the wrong info there.
In other words you have no answer for it?
To be fair I understand your doubtfulness to my claims since you are relatively new to this. Once you dig deeper you may start to realise the prosecution case is a hoax. Nevertheless I suggest you bare in mind it is not just the hypostasis but the blood coagulation also. In case you did not read it the documents I posted yesterday are below.
PSM/SLI/SMM/BAMBER
3 August 2005
Secretary of State for the
Home Department,
2 Marsham Street,
London, SW1P 4DF
And By Fax : 020 7035 4745
Dear Sirs,
Re: Jeremy BAMBER
Application for Prerogative of Pardon
We act for Mr. Jeremy Bamber whom, as you will be personally aware, was convicted on the 28th October 1986 of five counts of murder by a majority verdict of 10 to 2 following a 19 day trial in the Crown Court at Chelmsford before Mr. Justice Drake and a jury.
He was sentenced to life imprisonment with a recommendation that he serve a minimum of 25 years.
Pursuant to his trial he sought Leave to Appeal against his Conviction but his Application was refused on the papers by the Single Judge and on the 20th March 1989 the Full Court, presided over by the then Lord Chief Justice Lane, heard his renewed Application for Leave.
The Court dismissed the said Application.
Under Section 9 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1995 the Criminal Cases Review Commission referred the matter back to the Court of Appeal and on the 12th December 2002 Lord Justice Kay delivered a 100 page Judgement dismissing the said appeal.
It is of course true to say that the matter is currently again with the Criminal Cases Review Commission on new evidence based upon the abysmal failure on behalf of the Crown Prosecution Service and, more importantly, the Essex Police in disclosure.
It is correct to say that perhaps slightly less than one quarter of the 4 million or so documents still have not been disclosed to the Defence, although in the 38 boxes of papers that we received, it is also true to say there were a number of documents and, more importantly, photographs contained within which did not form part of the Defence papers either at (a) trial (b) the 1989 appeal and (c) the 2002 appeal.
Applications have been made to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and, as we have stated, it is absolutely correct to state that those investigations are ongoing. However, certain information has recently come to light which concerns a photograph which was discovered by ourselves amongst the papers, namely a post mortem photograph of Sheila Caffell’s wounds and the blood flow from her neck taking into consideration that the said blood flow was fresh and certainly, as per the photograph, could be deemed to be extremely recent.
That is a subject matter which is attracting the attention of the Criminal Cases Review Commission.
On the 28th July 2005 amongst the papers was discovered a Witness Statement from PC Peter Woodcock ATS 426 which, although dated 20th September 1985, refers to his visit to the scene of the crime at 7.34 am in the morning. In short this Witness Statement which, whilst we cannot be 100% certain did not form part of the trial bundle, certainly must be deemed corroborative of the photograph that we discovered which definitely did not form part of the trial bundle.
PC Woodcock states the following :
“She had what appeared to be two bullet holes under her chin and blood leaking from both sides of her mouth down her cheeks”.
This Statement clearly is corroborative to the photographs of Sheila Caffell with blood leaking down from her neck which we submitted to the Commission and which, at the cost of being again repetitive, there was a clear and distinct failure on the part of the Crown to disclose to the Defence.
The Statement of PC Woodcock who was the first officer to enter the house at 7.34 am states that there was “blood leaking from both sides of her mouth down her cheeks”. We know from his Witness Statement this was at 7.34 am. We also know from common medical knowledge that blood flowing the way that (a) the photograph proves and (b) evidence by the Statement of PC Woodcock, namely of leaking and or flowing, clearly confirms that at a very maximum, the time of death must have been 1 ½ hours from the time of either (a) the discovery of the body which was within 10 minutes of 7.34 am or (b) the photograph which we know was taken between 8.30 and 9.20 am on the said day of the tragedy.
That being the case and that evidence now being available, quite frankly, make it impossible for our client to have been responsible for the said murders.
Quite apart from this, there are the radio and telephone logs, again that were not disclosed to the Defence and to which the Chief Prosecutor, Mr. Anthony Arlidge QC has written to us confirming that he has never had sight of the said logs, which show (a) that at approximately 5.24 am there was conversation and movement by the police with someone inside the house, and (b) that upon entry to the house there was a “dead male and dead female body in the kitchen”.
The Prosecution allege that Sheila Caffell was found upstairs but the documents by the police, which they failed to disclose not only to the Defence but also to their own Prosecutor, tell a very different story.
The questions to be asked are that if indeed Sheila Caffell was found downstairs, how she then found herself upstairs by the time that PC Woodcock allegedly states that he found her.
Quite apart from the deplorable state of affairs and the fact that our client has now been 20 years in prison for a crime that it is evidently clear now by (a) the photographic evidence that the Crown failed to disclose, and (b) the corroboration of the blood flow by PC Woodcock in a Statement dated almost a year after the event and which, as we have stated, whilst we cannot be 100% certain was not disclosed, certainly the amount of documentation still covertly maintained by the Crown, over 600,000 pieces of paper, goes to the heart of the merits of our request.
It is of course true to say, as we have already perhaps overstated, that there is an Application to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and that, ultimately, this matter may find itself back to the Court of Appeal. Nevertheless, our client continues to be in custody and, as you will also be aware, last year was savagely attacked with a knife by an inmate for reasons that have never really been ascertained and which the Authorities almost invariably were aware that the assailant was a man of extreme danger.
In short, our client continues his detention, notwithstanding all of the above factors because perhaps there is really no system upon which any Authority, even the Crown Prosecution Service, the Police or the Court, can effect a release without the implementation of the 1995 Criminal Appeal Act and the Criminal Cases Review Commission making a referral.
In all the circumstances, we take the view that the appropriate course is for the Secretary of State for the Home Department in the exercise of his Prerogative Powers to grant a Pardon.
The exercise of this Prerogative Power to Pardon does not necessarily have to be a free pardon but can be conditional or in the form of a remission or a partial remission of sentence :
R –v- Secretary of State for the Home Department. Ex p. Bentley [1994] QB 349. Moreover, the Crown may exercise the prerogative right of granting a reprieve, which can be effected by announcing its pleasure in any way: 2 Hale PC 412. Since at least 1830 constitutionally the Crown has acted in the matter of reprieve on the uncontrolled responsibility of the Home Secretary: see Mackintosh “The British Cabinet” (2nd Ed) page 328 note 4; Sir Edward Troup “The Home Office” (Whitehall series) Chapter V. (referred to in Halsbury’s Laws of England 4th Ed Volume 8(2) paragraph 825, footnote1).
We are of course aware that this is perhaps one of the most high profile cases in recent British criminal history and that, according to papers we have seen, the Director of Public Prosecutions and Attorney General and the then Secretary of State for the Home Department certainly played a role. There are no allegations of misfeasance in public office save that there is clearly reference to the fact that the Secretary of State was made aware of the events from the beginning and was copied on correspondence between the then Prosecution, which was initiated in those days by the police, although there is no evidence that after 2002 the Secretary of State played any part in this whatsoever, other than of course the role of fixing the tariff.
In light of this evidence and in light of the way upon which matters have progressed and clearly the unsatisfactory situation on disclosure and the evidence found by ourselves and submitted to the Criminal Cases Review Commission now clearly suggest that Jeremy Bamber is not only technically and as a matter of law not guilty of these offences (the sheer size of the 600,000 or more pages of documents which the Crown failed to disclose is in itself per se a point of appeal) but that the simple photograph at the scene of the crime taken of Sheila Caffell with blood pouring from her neck and now the corroboration from the police officer Woodcock confirming that “blood was leaking from both sides of her mouth down her cheeks” show that since Mr. Bamber was with the police from 3 am and the cause of death having been ascertained as two bullet wounds and the oozing, leaking, flowing of blood taken in evidence make it impossible for Jeremy Bamber to be factually guilty of murder.
The use of the prerogative pardon, it is conceded, must be one that is administered with care and consideration. There is a real anger and a real fear that if a serious miscarriage of justice continues to be done and the public confidence in the criminal justice system must be one that when the Crown or the Executive understand and realise that a potential miscarriage of justice is apparent and not remedied, then the implications for the Crown and the Executive can be reflected upon the public confidence in the criminal justice system.
It is for these reasons that the Secretary of State is required to adopt the prerogative of pardon with the proviso and the understanding that it is in the form of remission of sentence. The quest for Mr. Bamber continues with the Criminal Cases Review Commission and can indeed continue until such time as the courts make an ultimate decision.
In the case of Susan May, the Parole Board duly released Miss May on parole notwithstanding her continued protestations of innocence and continued application currently with the Criminal Cases Review Commission.
Under normal circumstances, we would ask, and we do so in the alternative, for the Secretary of State to refer the matter to the Parole Board in a similar manner to that of Susan May with a view to releasing Mr. Bamber on licence if the Secretary of State feels that the time has not yet arrived when the prerogative of pardon cam be adopted. That being so, our prime objective is to (a) place information before the Secretary of State and (b) a formal application for the Secretary of State to use the prerogative of pardon and release Mr. Bamber forthwith.
This will in no way, as we have stated, interfere with the current ongoing Application to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and, in our view and taking into consideration that within the 4 million or so documents, notwithstanding that over 600,000 documents have failed to be disclosed, but one critical key factor was never dealt with either during the time of the investigation, the trial, the two appeals and to date.
Professor Vanezis who was the pathologist never stated in his Report his opinion on the time of death. We would have thought this would have been crucial and critical but it is evidently clear that the pathologies at the scene of the crime having witnessed and seen and in fact ordering photographs to be taken, having seen blood flowing from the neck of Sheila Caffell and then invariably reviewing the Witness Statements of the police (save of course for the Witness Statement dated 20th September 1985 of PC Woodcock had not been disclosed to the pathologist and of course the close up photograph of Sheila Caffell not having been disclosed to the pathologist), he could never have failed to give even a basic estimate of time of death.
It is clear when one reviews the scene of crime photographs that, for example, on June Bamber there is undoubtedly dried blood by the time the photographs were taken. However Sheila Caffell was a different story which was in itself, without even precise medical qualification, shows to the untrained eye that the time of death was fairly recent, otherwise the blood would not be flowing or leaking.
Under those circumstances, it would be wholly wrong and inequitable for Jeremy Bamber to remain a single day longer in custody when there is this specific doubt. The only mechanism which allows our client’s release is either the grant of parole licence by the Parole Board (which can take up to nine months) or the prerogative of pardon by the Secretary of State.
Whilst of course, to coin a phrase, beggars cannot be choosers, and this is not a situation where such should be the case, we will of course accept an urgent and immediate referral to the Parole Board by the Secretary of State but the preferable and more obvious avenue is clearly that, in this case, the Secretary of State must apply the prerogative of pardon.
This we kindly request to be done on an urgent basis.
We take this opportunity of thanking you for your kind consideration.
Yours faithfully,
PAUL MARTIN & CO.
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OK Caroline :) But wasn't it around 3.10 am that JB was supposed to have rung Julie? Damn clocks were either fast or slow that night! ;D
The times are all over the place Romeo. Jeremy originally said he called the police at 03:26 as in Wests log, however, with the (so called) finding of a second log the time changed to 03:36 to fit in a call from Neville. The way that it is written, most people think that it was the log written by Bonnett that was 'discovered' in 2004. This is however, not the case - the Bonnett log was made available to the jury and West read from his own log in the witness stand. If Jeremy didn't know about West's log, how was he able to claim he called the police at 03:26? If the log was hidden he couldn't know the time West indicated he received the call.
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Of course you’re right Jan, JB didn’t say his father had rung the police until the discrepancy over the police logs came to light. But JB knew only too well that his father couldn’t have rung the Police, which is why the Police Logs were questioned by JB’s team after JB queried them. It suited JB to then claim his father had rung the Police by pointing out the address of WHF on one of the Logs, this of course was the address JB gave the Police himself of where the incident had taken place, plus the name of his father on initially ringing the police with the information.
Going back to the phone calls, JB’s plan was to ring the Police saying that his father had rung him…just one phone call…. phone then off hook. But after the Logs were queried JB claimed that two phone calls were made. This proved a wrong decision, as it wasn’t possible for NB to make two phone calls at the same time….
03 26 am NB rings JB ( ten minutes later JB rings Police) 03.36am JB rings Police
03.26 am NB rings Police LOG
The first phone call Police log made by JB states at bottom of log …message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber.
If you had been in jail for 30 years for a crime you did not commit and were convinced you had been framed ( whether true or not) and battled against the dinasour justice system in this country then I think it is understandable that you would jump on any discrepancy you could find .and if you felt the legal system had failed you then you would try every method possible to try and get your story heard ( I am not including the campaign team methods in that) .
But of course some posters believe the reason he has spent thousands of hours trawling through every document is that he is so disturbed he believes he did not do it. Even though he did.
Let's hope we get an answer to that conundrum one day.
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I don't think that there was a call from NB to JB. Or come to that a call from NB to the Police. We only have JB's word that it happened at all. ( See further post regarding this )
In fact I believe the only phone call made that night was from JB to the Police.
i agree romeo
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Neville's call to the 5th furthest away police station claim was a publicity stunt, 25 years after the massacre. Just as Sheila's suicide note is.
The Mirror and Express both biting.
Bamber had another two years to include Neville's call to the 5th furthest away police station in his 2012 CCRC application. He didn't.
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Neville's call to the 5th furthest away police station claim was a publicity stunt, 25 years after the massacre. Just as Sheila's suicide note is.
The Mirror and Express both biting.
Bamber had another two years to include Neville's call to the 5th furthest away police station in his 2012 CCRC application. He didn't.
The suicide note is being publicised by the campaign team .Rightly or wrongly to raise funds to include it or reject it from future appeals . If you read posts you will find that not all of us think the call from Neville happened or that the note was found in the house. But that does not prove guilt or innocence.
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In other words you have no answer for it?
To be fair I understand your doubtfulness to my claims since you are relatively new to this. Once you dig deeper you may start to realise the prosecution case is a hoax. Nevertheless I suggest you bare in mind it is not just the hypostasis but the blood coagulation also. In case you did not read it the documents I posted yesterday are below.
It's no good trying to blind me with science David!.... :)) Just looking at the date of the first letter tells me it's 11 years old....and JB didn't get a pardon then!
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It's amazing that Bamber called the 5th furthest away police station.
But even more amazing that Neville would call the exact same 5th furthest away police station. Sixteen minutes after he 'amazingly called Bamber. Did Neville also get out 'Yellow Pages' ?
This claim is made mainly because there was a '3' instead of a '2' on separate logs.
To be fair, Holly from Red and David have both agreed Neville didn't phone Chelmsford.
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But of course some posters believe the reason he has spent thousands of hours trawling through every document is that he is so disturbed he believes he did not do it. Even though he did.
Let's hope we get an answer to that conundrum one day.
I'm one of those that believe the above Jan. The trouble with JB's account of things is he thought he was so clever in every respect. It wasn't a sudden decision he made that night, it was a calculated plan that took ages to put together.
On the other hand, Sheila was a schizophrenic who had spent time in hospital ( so had a label attached to her ) so she went crazy that night, although she had never attempted anything like this before even in a psychotic taste. .... during this psychotic state she was rational enough to reload the rifle several times, and also leave no clues to the fact she had committed the murders. All we have is JB's account of his sister's mind...... poor Sheila was a sitting duck for JB.
Let's hope we get an answer to that conundrum one day. ....So do I :)
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I'm one of those that believe the above Jan. The trouble with JB's account of things is he thought he was so clever in every respect. It wasn't a sudden decision he made that night, it was a calculated plan that took ages to put together.
On the other hand, Sheila was a schizophrenic who had spent time in hospital ( so had a label attached to her ) so she went crazy that night, although she had never attempted anything like this before even in a psychotic taste. .... during this psychotic state she was rational enough to reload the rifle several times, and also leave no clues to the fact she had committed the murders. All we have is JB's account of his sister's mind...... poor Sheila was a sitting duck for JB.
Let's hope we get an answer to that conundrum one day. ....So do I :)
Not quite correct in one respect there is a lot of documented references to Sheila's state of mind and no evidence that Jeremy understood her illness enough to use it in a complicated murder plan. Sheila had used violence before on more than one occasion . And to say she had never attempted anything like this before ? Well neither had Jeremy , and for whichever one it was it would have been the first and last time wouldn't it?
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It's no good trying to blind me with science David!.... :)) Just looking at the date of the first letter tells me it's 11 years old....and JB didn't get a pardon then!
How can you blind someone with science?
The date is not relevant and like you the Home Office gave no justified reason for rejecting it. They are just leaving the problem to simmer ie living in denial
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violence against who on more than one occasion
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Not quite correct in one respect there is a lot of documented references to Sheila's state of mind and no evidence that Jeremy understood her illness enough to use it in a complicated murder plan. Sheila had used violence before on more than one occasion . And to say she had never attempted anything like this before ? Well neither had Jeremy , and for whichever one it was it would have been the first and last time wouldn't it?
Most inheritance killers have not committed serious crimes before. Thread already created.
Although Bamber had committed a staged crime against his family and there were rumours about crimes abroad and drug smuggling. Actually he smuggled drugs just after the massacre.
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violence against who on more than one occasion
Freddi emani and in Colin's book he talked about physical arguments between them stating he was surprised they had not killed each other. There were reports from the doctors as well that mentioned possible violence against the children , but not confirmed .
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Most inheritance killers have not committed serious crimes before. Thread already created.
Although Bamber had committed a staged crime against his family and there were rumours about crimes abroad and drug smuggling. Actually he smuggled drugs just after the massacre.
Most ? So not all then?
And also rumours of crimes abroad should not be enough to convict a person.
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Most inheritance killers have not committed serious crimes before. Thread already created.
Although Bamber had committed a staged crime against his family and there were rumours about crimes abroad and drug smuggling. Actually he smuggled drugs just after the massacre.
He never smuggled drugs. The fact you still by this BS is beyond me
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He never smuggled drugs. The fact you still by this BS is beyond me
He smuggled cannabis just after the massacre.
Claire Powell's book said he boasted about smuggling heroin. Thread already created.
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Adam
How and why does the rifle with no silencer fit perfectly onto the muzzle imprint?
How comes there is a straight line going across underneath the entrance wound, Like Sheila's index finger has pulled the rifle to her left?
If you believe Jeremy killed Sheila with the silencer can you please put forward an alternative explanation for this bloodstain pattern?
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Most ? So not all then?
And also rumours of crimes abroad should not be enough to convict a person.
There is no record of the abroad crimes being mentioned at trial.
The caravan break in and Julies minor cheque book fraud with Susan Battersby two years earlier were brought up at trial.
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Freddi emani and in Colin's book he talked about physical arguments between them stating he was surprised they had not killed each other. There were reports from the doctors as well that mentioned possible violence against the children , but not confirmed .
But she didn't use violence against Freddie.....he just felt that she could on one particular occasion. If he had felt she was a threat why would he still be her friend?
Sheila's doctors also said they wouldn't have thought Sheila would use violence against her twins.
The problem here is that the people who find JB innocent are using all of the symptoms of a schizophrenic and applying them to Sheila on the night of the murders. Yes she had schizophrenia but having spent recent time in hospital before the murders her illness was under control. Her slowness and lack of conversation is proof of this.
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Why inheritance killers have little or no criminal history:
They are too scared to get involved in other criminal activities. Believing they will get caught.
They believe they might be disinherited if caught being in other criminal activities.
Their parents are rich and are not involved with criminals. So the inheritance killer has not got any criminal contacts to get involved with.
The inheritance killer already had a decent lifestyle courtesy of their parents.
The inheritance killer is not clever enough to get involved in criminal activities.
The inheritance killer is already free and able to commit the inheritance killing, meaning they have no or a minimal criminal past.
The easiest way to achieve wealth is through killing the family, so no reason to commit other crimes.
The inheritance killer has daily and unrestricted access to their targets. Unlike in other potential crimes.
The inheritance killer knows their targets strong and weak points. Unlike in other potential crimes.
The inheritance killer has tried going straight but are now desperate for the money, due to failed businesses - Steve Benson.
The inheritance killer is greedy and does not want to wait for inheritance. But does not want to commit other crimes due to a far greater risk and lesser financial reward.
The inheritance killer feels they are being treated unfairly by the family. Which motivates them to commit a major crime against them.
The inheritance killer does not believe they will be a suspect as it's their family and they have never been violent towards them.
The inheritance have a minimal or no criminal record, so will not be a suspect of a major crime.
It is a one off crime for them. The financial benefit being great.
The inheritance killer has strong personal feelings of hatred or resentment towards their targets. But no strong feelings to commit other crimes against other people.
The inheritance killer believes they are going to be disinherited. So can motivate themselves to commit one crime for one big reward.
Other crimes will have smaller rewards. An inheritance killing often has a huge reward. So despite no or a minor criminal history, they can motivate themselves to carry out an inheritance killing.
The inheritance killer has already successfully committed minor crimes against their targets. Meaning they had no need to commit major crimes prior to their inheritance killing.
The inheritance killer is younger and stronger than their targets. Other crimes may result in injuries to themselves.
They believe their targets may not fight back. Unlike in other crimes.
An inheritance killing can be done when the killer is ready. There are no time deadlines.
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How can you blind someone with science?
The date is not relevant and like you the Home Office gave no justified reason for rejecting it. They are just leaving the problem to simmer ie living in denial
if you blind someone with science, you confuse them by using technical language that they are not likely to understand But as I said....you can't do that to me. :))
Regarding your other comment....Perhaps the home office have more information on the crime than you do!
I cannot understand why you feel the Police and all Authorities had a grudge against JB ...... they took his word for what had happened at the time, then Julie Mugford gave her statement....but she was apparently told what to say by the Police....why? their job was to solve the case regardless of who committed the murders. Yes, mistakes were made by the Police, but they were in JB's favour!
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Not quite correct in one respect there is a lot of documented references to Sheila's state of mind and no evidence that Jeremy understood her illness enough to use it in a complicated murder plan. Sheila had used violence before on more than one occasion . And to say she had never attempted anything like this before ? Well neither had Jeremy , and for whichever one it was it would have been the first and last time wouldn't it?
JB knew enough of Sheila's illness to tell the Police, when he rang them about his father contacting him, that she was a schizophrenic and had gone mad before......when was that then?... Yes, Sheila had delusions regarding god...but she hadn't ever attacked anyone only slapped her husband's face.
Regarding JB He also had lost his temper with Julie Mugford and stolen money from his family, the latter affecting his family.
No, this does not mean either of the siblings were capable of murder but the outward ramifications look worse for JB.
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Not quite correct in one respect there is a lot of documented references to Sheila's state of mind and no evidence that Jeremy understood her illness enough to use it in a complicated murder plan. Sheila had used violence before on more than one occasion . And to say she had never attempted anything like this before ? Well neither had Jeremy , and for whichever one it was it would have been the first and last time wouldn't it?
This seems like a fair point and would explain why Jeremy's first plan of preference was to burn the Farm down. After Sheila's second bout of illness in March 1985 the time was ripe and when she spent weeks recuperating he must have seen the pitiful state she was in at close hand. Of course in order for him not to share the inheritance the twins had to die as well.
Sorry but this is the nature of the man we are dealing with.
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Freddi emani and in Colin's book he talked about physical arguments between them stating he was surprised they had not killed each other. There were reports from the doctors as well that mentioned possible violence against the children , but not confirmed .
I don't recall this quote, nor the ones from the doctors.
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Freddi emani and in Colin's book he talked about physical arguments between them stating he was surprised they had not killed each other. There were reports from the doctors as well that mentioned possible violence against the children , but not confirmed .
I have only ever seen that mentioned on here.
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Bamber told a policeman on the night that Sheila had committed child abuse on the twins. Bamber had not reported it.
He has not said this since.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7004.msg328743.html#msg328743
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Freddi emani and in Colin's book he talked about physical arguments between them stating he was surprised they had not killed each other. There were reports from the doctors as well that mentioned possible violence against the children , but not confirmed .
Oh c'mon Jan!!! Someone says they were surprised they had not killed each other!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We ALL have used expansive descriptions of situations -some nationalities/people are renown for passionate speech- but we only speak from our own experience of what we feel the situation MAY be -"I couldn't breathe" "I thought I was going to die" "It was HUGE" "It took HOURS".
If Colin was frustrated enough by Sheila's behaviours, it's more than possible, that on those occasions, when they they resorted to physical arguments, he wanted/ thought he wanted, to kill her, ergo, he would have believed she would have wanted to do the same to him.
Interesting that doctors speak only of POSSIBLE violence. I'd say they were covering themselves.
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Signs of the times,I'd have said. " POSSIBLE " in 1985 would be replaced by a more positive description in 2016,meaning that violence would have been applied to men back then. Even murder by women was virtually unheard of. I'm not sure,after 1985,when it was that a woman/women had committed infanticide/familicide,but it gradually became a more publicised horror and was on the increase.
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Signs of the times,I'd have said. " POSSIBLE " in 1985 would be replaced by a more positive description in 2016,meaning that violence would have been applied to men back then. Even murder by women was virtually unheard of. I'm not sure,after 1985,when it was that a woman/women had committed infanticide/familicide,but it gradually became a more publicised horror and was on the increase.
I expect you would, Lookout. I remain convinced, however, that "possible" covers all eventualities.
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I expect you would, Lookout. I remain convinced, however, that "possible" covers all eventualities.
" Possible " is a negative word to me,like " thought " ",might ", " could ",etc etc.
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Its in the book - I am not going to read it all again . like everything else it has been discussed on here before .
The fact is there were recorded incidences of violence with Sheila .
So I was just letting the OP know that the post was not quite correct.
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Digressing slightly,there's a " Tonight " programme this evening at 7.30,ITV called " Careless Killings ",which focusses on those suffering from mental illness who end up in serious crimes.
Worth watching,I imagine,if it also explains what the trigger is.
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“During the call the phone went dead. Sheila suddenly became hysterical, mumbling about the phone being bugged. She became like someone possessed ranting and raving. She was striking herself and beating the wall with her fists. I tried to calm her but she did not seem to hear me. I became extremely frightened not only for her but for myself. She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her step mother said he in fact loved her. I contacted her ex-mother in law and asked her to come round. This aggravated the situation and Sheila became even more violent and abusive. Her mother in law called and found a prescription for Sheila’s drugs and asked me to get them for her. I went to the chemist and when I retuned I was met at the front door by the mother in law who was leaving. She told me Sheila had kicked her out. I went in and tried to pacify Sheila but was unable to do so. I became extremely concerned for my own safety. I telephoned Sheila’s Doctor and a short while later one of her partners arrived. Sheila refused to let him examine her shouting that he was trying to poison her. By this time she had become completely irrational. The doctor eventually left without being able to do anything. Being unable to do anything I contacted another doctor who arrived shortly afterwards. Again he was unable to do anything because Sheila would not allow him near her.
He wrote a short note which he handed to me and asked me to hand to Sheila’s GP and gave her a stronger drug, whilst the first doctor was there Tara’s husband called to collect his daughter who was staying with Sheila. I had arranged for this as I felt something nasty might happen. I was extremely scared for everyone’s safety. At that time I felt that Sheila may use violence towards someone."
Freddie goes on to say that after Sheila came out of hospital, he discussed that episode with her and she could not remember anything about it and that she believed he had made it up. He also recalled that during the psychotic episode he witnessed, Sheila could not recognise anyone who came to the flat and “believed everyone was trying to hurt or kill her.”
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Notice she did not recognise anyone. So the logic that she would not attack her family could be misplaced .
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I've also read this, do you not think Sheila's doctor's would have sectioned her that night if they felt she was a danger to her children and other people? I know Sheila was sent to hospital the next day, but if anyone was in immediate danger she would have been taken in hospital that night.
Much later her doctor...Doctor Ferguson reflected.....
'It never crossed my mind that she would act out any aggression towards her children. It was all to do with mental aberration rather than physical manifestations of anger or acting out that anger'.
Doctor Ferguson also states... The correlation between schizophrenia and violence is small but significant. Around 2 per cent of the population without mental health problems will commit a serious violent act.; for schizophrenia sufferers that figure stands at 8 per cent, a lower number than for those with depression or a personality disorder.
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I've also read this, do you not think Sheila's doctor's would have sectioned her that night if they felt she was a danger to her children and other people? I know Sheila was sent to hospital the next day, but if anyone was in immediate danger she would have been taken in hospital that night.
Much later her doctor...Doctor Ferguson reflected.....
'It never crossed my mind that she would act out any aggression towards her children. It was all to do with mental aberration rather than physical manifestations of anger or acting out that anger'.
Doctor Ferguson also states... The correlation between schizophrenia and violence is small but significant. Around 2 per cent of the population without mental health problems will commit a serious violent act.; for schizophrenia sufferers that figure stands at 8 per cent, a lower number than for those with depression or a personality disorder.
unfortunately you could say that about a lot of children that have unfortunately been released back to parents who have then suffered at the hands of their parents . The system was not perfect then and is not perfect now.
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No doctor/psychiatrist can ever say for certain that a psychotic attack won't end in disaster.
A lot would depend on the situation they were in at the time.Obviously if the patient felt aggravated,or if there were a few people around trying to help, sadly instead of helping it makes the patient worse ( I know this from experience ) then they will attack.
If Neville had been there with her,one to one,it would have helped calm her.
There's no knowing what a person will do during a psychotic attack.Nobody yet has got around to reading their minds.
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I've also read this, do you not think Sheila's doctor's would have sectioned her that night if they felt she was a danger to her children and other people? I know Sheila was sent to hospital the next day, but if anyone was in immediate danger she would have been taken in hospital that night.
Much later her doctor...Doctor Ferguson reflected.....
'It never crossed my mind that she would act out any aggression towards her children. It was all to do with mental aberration rather than physical manifestations of anger or acting out that anger'.
Doctor Ferguson also states... The correlation between schizophrenia and violence is small but significant. Around 2 per cent of the population without mental health problems will commit a serious violent act.; for schizophrenia sufferers that figure stands at 8 per cent, a lower number than for those with depression or a personality disorder.
[/
I guess you are also aware that there was talk that she might have be to be admitted to hospital in July 1985?
So the concerns were obviously ongoing.
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Its in the book - I am not going to read it all again . like everything else it has been discussed on here before .
The fact is there were recorded incidences of violence with Sheila .
So I was just letting the OP know that the post was not quite correct.
I have just read what Colin said in his book (page 144 - 145) and actually, he said the opposite. He said she had a fiery temper BUT not physically violent. He said Sheila would never be physically violent to anyone and takes the blame for most of what was initially said in the newspapers and a lot of what he said was down to anger and grief.
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I have just read what Colin said in his book (page 144 - 145) and actually, he said the opposite. He said she had a fiery temper BUT not physically violent. He said Sheila would never be physically violent to anyone and takes the blame for most of what was initially said in the newspapers and a lot of what he said was down to anger and grief.
I stand suitably corrected , but he did say the bit about killing each other. Plus he was the one person who did not seem to stand up for Sheila and say she could not ha pave possibly done it. I thought he said violence under the surface . Those words definitely ring a bell. But it is some time since I have read the book. She also herself was afraid she would be violent towards the twins.
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“During the call the phone went dead. Sheila suddenly became hysterical, mumbling about the phone being bugged. She became like someone possessed ranting and raving. She was striking herself and beating the wall with her fists. I tried to calm her but she did not seem to hear me. I became extremely frightened not only for her but for myself. She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her step mother said he in fact loved her. I contacted her ex-mother in law and asked her to come round. This aggravated the situation and Sheila became even more violent and abusive. Her mother in law called and found a prescription for Sheila’s drugs and asked me to get them for her. I went to the chemist and when I retuned I was met at the front door by the mother in law who was leaving. She told me Sheila had kicked her out. I went in and tried to pacify Sheila but was unable to do so. I became extremely concerned for my own safety. I telephoned Sheila’s Doctor and a short while later one of her partners arrived. Sheila refused to let him examine her shouting that he was trying to poison her. By this time she had become completely irrational. The doctor eventually left without being able to do anything. Being unable to do anything I contacted another doctor who arrived shortly afterwards. Again he was unable to do anything because Sheila would not allow him near her.
He wrote a short note which he handed to me and asked me to hand to Sheila’s GP and gave her a stronger drug, whilst the first doctor was there Tara’s husband called to collect his daughter who was staying with Sheila. I had arranged for this as I felt something nasty might happen. I was extremely scared for everyone’s safety. At that time I felt that Sheila may use violence towards someone."
Freddie goes on to say that after Sheila came out of hospital, he discussed that episode with her and she could not remember anything about it and that she believed he had made it up. He also recalled that during the psychotic episode he witnessed, Sheila could not recognise anyone who came to the flat and “believed everyone was trying to hurt or kill her.”
Well, if a person were skeptical, they could wonder if this incident influenced Jeremy. Sheila wasn't violent to anyone, she sounds scared and confused more than anything but she didn't attack anyone or pick up a weapon in any kind of threat.
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I stand suitably corrected , but he did say the bit about killing each other. Plus he was the one person who did not seem to stand up for Sheila and say she could not ha pave possibly done it. I thought he said violence under the surface . Those words definitely ring a bell. But it is some time since I have read the book. She also herself was afraid she would be violent towards the twins.
She was worried that her illness could be hurtful to others and I think that speaks volumes. Not sure how many times I have told that I would kill him. People say this al of the time but they aren't talking literally.
Colin had no reason to believe what he was being told was anything other than the truth. I guess he has a lot of feelings to come to terms with. If anyone would have been bewildered, it would have been Colin.
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Found a post from skippy where he said Colin said Sheila had struck him.
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She was worried that her illness could be hurtful to others and I think that speaks volumes. Not sure how many times I have told that I would kill him. People say this al of the time but they aren't talking literally.
Colin had no reason to believe what he was being told was anything other than the truth. I guess he has a lot of feelings to come to terms with. If anyone would have been bewildered, it would have been Colin.
Yes , so that goes for Jeremy as well. So that discounts his alleged threats against his parents then.
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Yes , so that goes for Jeremy as well. So that discounts his alleged threats against his parents then.
There is a difference between saying that you're planning on killing your family and using the term in the way most of us use it.
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if you blind someone with science, you confuse them by using technical language that they are not likely to understand But as I said....you can't do that to me. :))
Regarding your other comment....Perhaps the home office have more information on the crime than you do!
I cannot understand why you feel the Police and all Authorities had a grudge against JB ...... they took his word for what had happened at the time, then Julie Mugford gave her statement....but she was apparently told what to say by the Police....why? their job was to solve the case regardless of who committed the murders. Yes, mistakes were made by the Police, but they were in JB's favour!
What kind of excuse is that? Its simple maths!
Very well. I put it into an easy chart for you. Comparing the development of hypostasis in hours post mortem by various experts and the mean upper limits and lower limits of those figures and compare them to the time required for JB to be guilty.
As you can see the time of death does not fit. If it doesn't fit you must acquit!
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There is a difference between saying that you're planning on killing your family and using the term in the way most of us use it.
So now you be live Julie then? Because that's the only person who heard it in a particular context and not a through away remark.
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What kind of excuse is that? Its simple maths!
Very well. I put it into an easy chart for you. Comparing the development of hypostasis in hours post mortem by various experts and the mean upper limits and lower limits of those figures and compare them to the time required for JB to be guilty.
As you can see the time of death does not fit. If it doesn't fit you must acquit!
David is this the new slogan for your avatar?
I repeat the link I posted yesterday here:
Most authorities agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity, on average, at around 12 h postmortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed, i.e. confluent. Hypostasis begins to form immediately after death, but it may not be visible for some time. Ordinarily its earliest appearance, as dull red patches, is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 h. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and become confluent within 14 h postmortem, to reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h. Faint lividity may appear shortly before death in individuals with terminal circulatory failure. Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
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David is this the new slogan for your avatar?
I repeat the link I posted yesterday here:
Most authorities agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity, on average, at around 12 h postmortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed, i.e. confluent. Hypostasis begins to form immediately after death, but it may not be visible for some time. Ordinarily its earliest appearance, as dull red patches, is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 h. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and become confluent within 14 h postmortem, to reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h. Faint lividity may appear shortly before death in individuals with terminal circulatory failure. Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
Who are most authorities?
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David is this the new slogan for your avatar?
I repeat the link I posted yesterday here:
Most authorities agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity, on average, at around 12 h postmortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed, i.e. confluent. Hypostasis begins to form immediately after death, but it may not be visible for some time. Ordinarily its earliest appearance, as dull red patches, is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 h. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and become confluent within 14 h postmortem, to reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h. Faint lividity may appear shortly before death in individuals with terminal circulatory failure. Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
As I have already pointed out to you, the reasons for a posssible delay in development do not apply to Sheila.
In fact one of the reasons does apply to June (old age) but that still has not prevented the obvious visual appearance in the photos of June.
Thus the time of death does not fit. If it doesn't fit you must acquit! 8)
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What kind of excuse is that? Its simple maths!
Very well. I put it into an easy chart for you. Comparing the development of hypostasis in hours post mortem by various experts and the mean upper limits and lower limits of those figures and compare them to the time required for JB to be guilty.
As you can see the time of death does not fit. If it doesn't fit you must acquit!
yes a couple of photos will get jb released :)) :)) :))
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Who are most authorities?
I suppose one takes internet links at face value. http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/postmortem-interval/
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David is this the new slogan for your avatar?
I repeat the link I posted yesterday here:
Most authorities agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity, on average, at around 12 h postmortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed, i.e. confluent. Hypostasis begins to form immediately after death, but it may not be visible for some time. Ordinarily its earliest appearance, as dull red patches, is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 h. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and become confluent within 14 h postmortem, to reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h. Faint lividity may appear shortly before death in individuals with terminal circulatory failure. Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
Good post Steve! I've posted the same kind of thing, but David won't see the obvious, that Sheila had been dead for hours. I like his table though ;)
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So now you be live Julie then? Because that's the only person who heard it in a particular context and not a through away remark.
The Court did!
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I suppose one takes internet links at face value. http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/postmortem-interval/
I see no evidence that June was in a heightend state of lividity - however, for the sake of argument, the first shot caused a 'substantial' haemorrhage when the bullett caught her jugular and the article you posted states;
Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
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Pity Sheila's and the children's drawings weren't under scrutiny as well as the handwriting.
Sheila's drawings as an 11 year old had spooked Colin when he first visited WHF,and we all know what 5/6 year old drawings were like. Odd being the operative word for them.
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I see no evidence that June was in a heightend state of lividity - however, for the sake of argument, the first shot caused a 'substantial' haemorrhage when the bullett caught her jugular and the article you posted states;
Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
Well said Caroline.....wish we had a 'Like' button :)
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Are we now saying that June hadn't been dead for hours ?
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Are we now saying that June hadn't been dead for hours ?
They both had.
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They both had.
No------they'd have been peuce all over. ( purple )
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How long do you think they had been dead then Lookout?
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I don't remember one of the many officers mentioning a stench.Which there would have been after " hours ".
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I remember reading that they opened the windows......probably the smell.
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How long do you think they had been dead then Lookout?
Sheila hadn't been dead much above a couple of hours.June only slightly longer,but no way for hours,that's ridiculous. I've seen bodies which have been dead for hours and believe me they DON'T look like Sheila and June.
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Good post Steve! I've posted the same kind of thing, but David won't see the obvious, that Sheila had been dead for hours. I like his table though ;)
Not only do the reasons for a possible delay not apply to Sheila how about you actually read what is posted
Most authorities agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity, on average, at around 12 h postmortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed, i.e. confluent. Hypostasis begins to form immediately after death, but it may not be visible for some time. Ordinarily its earliest appearance, as dull red patches, is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 h. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and become confluent within 14 h postmortem, to reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h. Faint lividity may appear shortly before death in individuals with terminal circulatory failure. Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
Even if post mortem hypostasis was delayed in a "rare" situation of 3 hours. That gives another 3.5 hours for it to develop still. Not to mention that the causes for a delay do not apply to Sheila but they do in June and hers is clearly visible. What Steve has posted is actually shooting him in the foot.
Plus with the 7.5 hours benchmark I am being very generous to the prosecution here. This gives Jeremy very little time to finish engineering the scene then to peddle is arse pronto in the night back home over the fields then to clean himself up and do the final acting rehearsals. A more reasonable time frame would be 8.25 hours.
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I remember reading that they opened the windows......probably the smell.
None of the officers mentioned a smell which pertained to them having been dead for hours. The Aga had been going so it would have been stuffy.
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I see no evidence that June was in a heightend state of lividity - however, for the sake of argument, the first shot caused a 'substantial' haemorrhage when the bullett caught her jugular and the article you posted states;
Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
substantial and massive have two separate meanings. June received more blood loss form haemorrhage having been shot 6 times. yet it still never prevented it from forming.
substantial: adjective "of considerable importance, size, or worth"
massive: adjective "exceptionally large"
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yes a couple of photos will get jb released :)) :)) :))
Anything that proved time of death would.
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Anything that proved time of death would.
The most vital information overlooked.JB would not be in prison if this had been implemented.
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Not only do the reasons for a possibly not apply to Sheila how about you actually read what is posted
Most authorities agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity, on average, at around 12 h postmortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed, i.e. confluent. Hypostasis begins to form immediately after death, but it may not be visible for some time. Ordinarily its earliest appearance, as dull red patches, is 20-30 min after death, but this may be delayed for up to 2, or rarely 3 h. The patches of livor then deepen, increase in intensity, and become confluent within 14 h postmortem, to reach a maximum extent and intensity within about 6-10 h, but sometimes as early as 3 h or as late as 16 h. Faint lividity may appear shortly before death in individuals with terminal circulatory failure. Conversely, the development of lividity may be delayed in persons with chronic anemia or massive terminal hemorrhage.
Even if post mortem hypostasis was delayed in a "rare" situation of 3 hours. That gives another 3.5 hours for it to develop still. Not to mention that the causes for a delay do not apply to Sheila but they do in June and hers is clearly visible. What Steve has posted is actually shooting him in the foot.
Plus with the 7.5 hours benchmark I am being very generous to the prosecution here. This gives Jeremy very little time to finish engineering the scene then to peddle is arse pronto in the night back home over the fields then to clean himself up and do the final acting rehearsals. A more reasonable time frame would be 8.25 hours.
The quality of the photographs is poor but you can just make out some slight discolouration on Sheila's face which at first glance looks like make-up.
As for the bit highlighted in bold, don't get me going again on the prodigal son who hied by bicycle in the deadliest hours of night to that sequestered Georgian mansion, converted that morning into a charnel house of death..
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The quality of the photographs is poor but you can just make out some slight discolouration on Sheila's face which at first glance looks like make-up.
As for the bit highlighted in bold, don't get me going again on the prodigal son who hied by bicycle in the deadliest hours of night to that sequestered Georgian mansion, converted that morning into a charnel house of death..
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substantial and massive have two separate meanings. June received more blood loss form haemorrhage having been shot 6 times. yet it still never prevented it from forming.
substantial: adjective "of considerable importance, size, or worth"
massive: adjective "exceptionally large"
OMG! Riduculous ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Steve....is the chap in the photo above laughing at the suggestion of another appeal by Jeremy Bamber's Team. :)) :))
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..the Devil incarnate, whose lethal plan could not be prevented by the parents who had adopted him and who only wanted the best for him, yet who through a lethal combination of indulgence and neglect had unsettled him as he struggled to find his place in the social hierarchy of the times..
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substantial and massive have two separate meanings. June received more blood loss form haemorrhage having been shot 6 times. yet it still never prevented it from forming.
substantial: adjective "of considerable importance, size, or worth"
massive: adjective "exceptionally large"
I'd have said that a few of June's wounds had been caused after death or she'd have been really saturated.
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Steve....is the chap in the photo above laughing at the suggestion of another appeal by Jeremy Bamber's Team. :)) :))
David breaks the monotony if nothing else.
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OMG! Riduculous ;D ;D ;D ;D
I know you are ;D
Is the ignore feature malfunctioning? you seem to be reading my posts ???
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..and as Jeremy chased his father down the staircase that August morning in his deadly game, Nevill leaving his bloodied fingermarks on the blue and white chequered worktop before realizing it was a dead end and he was caught like a wild animal in a trap, Jeremy too an untamed beast as he bashed Nevill with the rifle stock, revenge for all those unproductive years of interminable lectures at Gresham's School.
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Two different things? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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..and as Jeremy chased his father down the staircase that August morning in his deadly game, Nevill leaving his bloodied fingermarks on the blue and white chequered worktop before realizing it was a dead end and he was caught like a wild animal in a trap, Jeremy too an untamed beast as he bashed Nevill with the rifle stock, revenge for all those unproductive years of interminable lectures at Gresham's School.
Yet you cannot explain how he kills Sheila while he is in police custody. Was David Bain his accomplice hiding in the coal shed?
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Anything that proved time of death would.
But lividity doesn't prove time of death. Even if the pictures were of decent quality (which the one of June is not), there is June's age to consider, the fact that her legs were covered in blood and the fact that Sheila has suffered a substantial heamorrhage after the first shot.
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Jeremy had betrayed his mother, a Judas in her midst, her death effectuated in part by the cocktail of cannabis and cocaine now working through his central nervous system upon which he had become dependent and affording him the stimulus he needed to complete his assignment, the destruction of five including two nephews without taint who had done their uncle no harm, who were London boys like him and who lived and died together..
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Two different things? ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes. Massive haemorrhage will delay post mortem hypostasis because so much blood is lost. This does not apply to Sheila or June (Obviously) despite June taking three times as many bullets as Sheila.
But you never fail to find an excuse for things ::)
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Yes. Massive haemorrhage will delay post mortem hypostasis because so much blood is lost. This does not apply to Sheila or June (Obviously) despite June taking three times as many bullets as Sheila.
But you never fail to find an excuse for things ::)
It does apply to Sheila. You can pretend it doesn't though and keep posting your grainy picture as proof ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It does apply to Sheila. You can pretend it doesn't though and keep posting your grainy picture as proof ;D ;D ;D ;D
Your desperation has no limits. The amount of hemmorage has not and cannot drain enough blood from the body to cause a difference. just like with June (Obviously). The lack of hypostasis is corroborated by the uncoagulated blood and the lack of rigour mortis
You now cling on to semantics as a final refuge to justify your absurd reasons for believing Jeremy is guilty. why am I not surprised? ::)
http://the-difference-between.com/massive/substantial (http://the-difference-between.com/massive/substantial)
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One has to ask the question why Jeremy, as he reflected on his chair at Goldhanger and five lives hung in the balance. Were you reminded of Suzette's children, with whom you used to construct a Lego tractor, but who had now absconded with the only woman you really loved and who never contacted you again, or were your thoughts on the miscarriage she suffered and deprived you of your child?
Was Jeremy pleased with the flow of proceedings as he stood outside hour after hour, his now restrained emotion waiting for the outlet Julie afforded as the action moved to Goldhanger and he stifled a chuckle behind closed doors, a compliant Julie transfixed by this man's aura of evil?
Would Angie Greaves have made him any happier installed at Moreshead Mansions, revived and regenerated for a time by the effervescence of the London crowd, or would that relationship too have ended in tatters as Jeremy headed off to a far-flung Tibetan monastery with Roland Pargeter, the only individual on the Farm he could to some degree relate to, a voluntary banishment keeping him content until some other sublunary calamity led inexorably to his own destruction, as Julie's Ariel now fled, yet with Jeremy's Prospero still enslaved?
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Your desperation has no limits. The amount of hemmorage has not and cannot drain enough blood from the body to cause a difference. just like with June (Obviously). The lack of hypostasis is corroborated by the uncoagulated blood and the lack of rigour mortis
You now cling on to semantics as a final refuge to justify your absurd reasons for believing Jeremy is guilty. why am I not surprised? ::)
Rubbish - your theory is in tatters and you know it!! You're making silly excuses and YOU are the one arguing about sematics - they are massive and substantial are synonyms but you can argue that they are different if you want to look even more foolish!
Sheila had a substantial heamorrhage which can effect the process of lividity! FACT!
If your theory was presented to the CCRC - they would dismiss it!
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Yes. Massive haemorrhage will delay post mortem hypostasis because so much blood is lost. This does not apply to Sheila or June (Obviously) despite June taking three times as many bullets as Sheila.
Not so quick David....Please read my post now!
A cadaveric spasm can sometimes occur when a person is instantly killed by violent means (such as by a gunshot to the head or a stab to the heart). It doesn't happen when a person is killed by being burned to death. The key thing is that the person's skeletal muscles have to be working at the moment of death. In the spasm, the person's muscles seize up; the condition can be (and sometimes is) mistaken for rigor mortis. June had ( obviously ) walked around before she was shot between the eyes. Looks like June could have had a Cadaveric spasm which means it's not rigor mortis hence the time of her death cannot be assumed as being earlier than Sheila's David, Plus of course Sheila has Livor Mortis
This condition can be useful to crime scene investigators because whatever the person was holding at the moment they were killed will be literally clutched in a death grip; such items can include hanks of hair or rags of clothing from their murderer.
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Rubbish - your theory is in tatters and you know it!! You're making silly excuses and YOU are the one arguing about sematics - they are massive and substantial are synonyms but you can argue that they are different if you want to look even more foolish!
Sheila had a substantial heamorrhage which can effect the process of lividity! FACT!
If your theory was presented to the CCRC - they would dismiss it!
June has three times as many gunshots wounds, has lost more blood and is elderly. Did that delay the hypostasis for seven hours? NO. Once again your lack of logic prevails
I guess you don't let reality get in the way of your agenda ;D
Substantial is a synonym of massive.
As adjectives the difference between substantial and massive is that substantial is having to substance; actually existing; real; as, substantial life while massive is of or pertaining to a large mass; weighty, heavy, or bulky.
As nouns the difference between substantial and massive is that substantial is anything having substance; an essential part while massive is (mineralogy) a homogeneous mass of rock, not layered and without an obvious crystal structure.
http://the-difference-between.com/massive/substantial (http://the-difference-between.com/massive/substantial)
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David and his 'Hypostasis'. :-\
Writing long posts, in red ink and posting nice pictures or diagrams will not convince any guilters Sheila was still alive when the raid team entered WHF. However if Bamber were ever released on these grounds and the experts admitted they were wrong after 31 years, that would be food for thought.
Discovering a 'forensic evidence breakthrough' and not saying what it is was more effective. Even Scipio resurfaced on Red for that. The first time he had resurfaced since reading a thread from Wiggy.
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Not so quick David....Please read my post now!
A cadaveric spasm can sometimes occur when a person is instantly killed by violent means (such as by a gunshot to the head or a stab to the heart). It doesn't happen when a person is killed by being burned to death. The key thing is that the person's skeletal muscles have to be working at the moment of death. In the spasm, the person's muscles seize up; the condition can be (and sometimes is) mistaken for rigor mortis. June had ( obviously ) walked around before she was shot between the eyes. Looks like June could have had a Cadaveric spasm which means it's not rigor mortis hence the time of her death cannot be assumed as being earlier than Sheila's David, Plus of course Sheila has Livor Mortis
This condition can be useful to crime scene investigators because whatever the person was holding at the moment they were killed will be literally clutched in a death grip; such items can include hanks of hair or rags of clothing from their murderer.
So therefore as I've been saying,that a spasm,and or a jolt from the firing of the rifle would not have caused it to " settle " where it was allegedly found-----------resting quite comfortably on her chest !
In truth,the rifle hadn't been found where pictured.
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So therefore as I've been saying,that a spasm,and or a jolt from the firing of the rifle would not have caused it to " settle " where it was allegedly found-----------resting quite comfortably on her chest !
In truth,the rifle hadn't been found where pictured.
I agree with you Lookout. One thing I'm pretty sure about is that Sheila was moved and stage managed, how much and by whom is an on going debate but I cannot believe Sheila died in that position.
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I agree with you Lookout. One thing I'm pretty sure about is that Sheila was moved and stage managed, how much and by whom is an on going debate but I cannot believe Sheila died in that position.
Of that,I have no doubt.
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When something is,or appears too good to be true---it usually is,girls.
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When something is,or appears too good to be true---it usually is,girls.
Yep.
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well at least we have two officers who said that as well. Its about the only thing we agree on .
Which is a shame because a lot of people said JB stage managed it , but I don't think we are looking at the crime scene as it was found whoever is guilty.
Jan
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June has three times as many gunshots wounds, has lost more blood and is elderly. Did that delay the hypostasis for seven hours? NO. Once again your lack of logic prevails
I guess you don't let reality get in the way of your agenda ;D
Substantial is a synonym of massive.
As adjectives the difference between substantial and massive is that substantial is having to substance; actually existing; real; as, substantial life while massive is of or pertaining to a large mass; weighty, heavy, or bulky.
As nouns the difference between substantial and massive is that substantial is anything having substance; an essential part while massive is (mineralogy) a homogeneous mass of rock, not layered and without an obvious crystal structure.
http://the-difference-between.com/massive/substantial (http://the-difference-between.com/massive/substantial)
What absolute guff! You're desparately trying to deny what was said in the autopsy just to bolster your argument. Semantics won't help you! There s a vast (massive SUBSTANTIAL) difference to being shot in the leg or arm etc. and being shot in the jugular. Sheila suffering a SUBSTANTIAL haemorrhage meets the criteria for reduced hypostasis - even though, I don't believe that the photographs show that she had reduced hypostasis in comparison with a grainy red tinted photograph of June.
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well at least we have two officers who said that as well. Its about the only thing we agree on .
Which is a shame because a lot of people said JB stage managed it , but I don't think we are looking at the crime scene as it was found whoever is guilty.
Jan
That's who I think did stage manage it.
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That's who I think did stage manage it.
oh yes . Of course you do .
But as the police said the gun was not in the position shown in the photos I tend to disagree.
hey ho its a free world .
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Yes. Massive haemorrhage will delay post mortem hypostasis because so much blood is lost. This does not apply to Sheila or June (Obviously) despite June taking three times as many bullets as Sheila.
But you never fail to find an excuse for things ::)
The difference you fail to acknowledge is this. EITHER one of the two shots to Sheila would undoubtedly have killed her, a shot to the jugular, the first, causing a massively substantial/substantially massive haemorrhage taking a little longer but ultimately having the same outcome as the second, a shot to the brain, although there is no clear indication of how long there was between shots. Only one of the many body shots sustained by June would have caused her death, none causing her to haemorrhage.
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The difference you fail to acknowledge is this. EITHER one of the two shots to Sheila would undoubtedly have killed her, a shot to the jugular, the first, causing a massively substantial/substantially massive haemorrhage taking a little longer but ultimately having the same outcome as the second, a shot to the brain, although there is no clear indication of how long there was between shots. Only one of the many body shots sustained by June would have caused her death, none causing her to haemorrhage.
Are you saying then that the shots to June were not that accurate then - so not the work of an expert shot?
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Are you saying then that the shots to June were not that accurate then - so not the work of an expert shot?
I guess I'm saying that the shots to June were meant to look as if someone had inflicted them as opposed to her having committed suicide.
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That's who I think did stage manage it.
No,on the contrary,IF JB had done it,or even an outsider,they'd have just chucked the rifle on the floor to make it look as though the women fought between them,and without trace of JB's presence/evidence,EP would have been even more baffled.
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No,on the contrary,IF JB had done it,or even an outsider,they'd have just chucked the rifle on the floor to make it look as though the women fought between them,and without trace of JB's presence/evidence,EP would have been even more baffled.
Who, including Jeremy, would dream of thinking up a scenario in which two women fight....................although I understand some men have sexual fantasies along those lines.
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Who, including Jeremy, would dream of thinking up a scenario in which two women fight....................although I understand some men have sexual fantasies along those lines.
I don't think I'M talking " sexual fantasies " here------------far from it.
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As in a vicious cat-fight between two women. The most horrendous scene you could imagine.
The only " sex " mentioned is that in Essex !
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As in a vicious cat-fight between two women. The most horrendous scene you could imagine.
The only " sex " mentioned is that in Essex !
I still can't think WHY Jeremy, let alone an "outsider" would think up a scenario in which two women would fight to the death.
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David and his 'Hypostasis'. :-\
Writing long posts, in red ink and posting nice pictures or diagrams will not convince any guilters Sheila was still alive when the raid team entered WHF. However if Bamber were ever released on these grounds and the experts admitted they were wrong after 31 years, that would be food for thought.
Discovering a 'forensic evidence breakthrough' and not saying what it is was more effective. Even Scipio resurfaced on Red for that. The first time he had resurfaced since reading a thread from Wiggy.
:)) :)) ;)
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As in a vicious cat-fight between two women. The most horrendous scene you could imagine.
The only " sex " mentioned is that in Essex !
would the pair catfighting not transfer each others blood on their nighties.women normally scatch i didnt see any on either womans face
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would the pair catfighting not transfer each others blood on their nighties.women normally scatch i didnt see any on either womans face
Yes,you're right,June's face was perfectly clean. No fingermarks around her neck and no mark left after the bullet pierced her forehead.
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Yes,you're right,June's face was perfectly clean.
no your right her face had blood on it but 'no' scratchies
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I still can't think WHY Jeremy, let alone an "outsider" would think up a scenario in which two women would fight to the death.
The MAIN scenario is throwing the rifle down and NOT placing it on Sheila's body !!
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The MAIN scenario is throwing the rifle down and NOT placing it on Sheila's body !!
The placing of the rifle on Sheila's body is suggestive of her having committed suicide. Throwing the rifle down would be more suggestive of her having been murdered.
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The placing of the rifle on Sheila's body is suggestive of her having committed suicide. Throwing the rifle down would be more suggestive of her having been murdered.
D'oh ! You've missed the point entirely. ::)
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No,on the contrary,IF JB had done it,or even an outsider,they'd have just chucked the rifle on the floor to make it look as though the women fought between them,and without trace of JB's presence/evidence,EP would have been even more baffled.
No they wouldn't. Not many people would believe June had anything to do with it, or put up much of a fight considering the serious injuries she sustained whilst still in bed.
June walked around the side of the bed. That's all.
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D'oh ! You've missed the point entirely. ::)
Would you care to explain the point, then, please?
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The placing of the rifle on Sheila's body is suggestive of her having committed suicide. Throwing the rifle down would be more suggestive of her having been murdered.
So you are now saying that Jeremy did not stage the scene ? I am not sure I am understanding your post. So if certain officers are right and the gun was not placed on her , then that to you is more indicative of Jeremy's guilt?
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The placing of the rifle on Sheila's body is suggestive of her having committed suicide. Throwing the rifle down would be more suggestive of her having been murdered.
Seems clear to me.
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I guess I'm saying that the shots to June were meant to look as if someone had inflicted them as opposed to her having committed suicide.
Personally I am not sure that there was actually any plan that a murderer could make which would anticipate the victims reactions to bring shot in any shape or form. It could just be that the shooter was firing random shots at a moving target. Perhaps not so experienced with a gun.
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That's one way of putting it.
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Personally I am not sure that there was actually any plan that a murderer could make which would anticipate the victims reactions to bring shot in any shape or form. It could just be that the shooter was firing random shots at a moving target. Perhaps not so experienced with a gun.
Well, I think we may take it as a given that the victims wouldn't have appreciated being shot. June wasn't moving when she received her first shots. Each one found a mark. Certainly it was made to look like the work of an inexperienced shooter.
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What's so funny ?
He gets the giggles a lot apparently . I am sure there is a reason for that particular sense of humour. Not sure what it is though.
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Effeminism,nervousness or wind.Take your pick
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Well, I think we may take it as a given that the victims wouldn't have appreciated being shot. June wasn't moving when she received her first shots. Each one found a mark. Certainly it was made to look like the work of an inexperienced shooter.
That makes Jeremy much more intelligent than a lot of people imply when it suits them . So he deliberately shot June in that way to make it look like Sheila .Never thought of that before.
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That makes Jeremy much more intelligent than a lot of people imply when it suits them . So he deliberately shot June in that way to make it look like Sheila .Never thought of that before.
The whole scenario was designed to make it appear to be Sheila's work. He'd hardly have made it look as if he'd been responsible. I'm really surprised that you'd not thought that out for yourself.
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The whole scenario was designed to make it appear to be Sheila's work. He'd hardly have made it look as if he'd been responsible. I'm really surprised that you'd not thought that out for yourself.
That makes the police even more stupid then , so obvious and yet they missed all the clues. And give me a break , it took you long enough to work it out and obviously I am behind you in time and studying the case .
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Seriously,what sort of an idiot would MAKE it look like suicide ?
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Seriously,what sort of an idiot would MAKE it look like suicide ?
Errr, someone who wanted to make it LOOK like a suicide? ::)
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That makes the police even more stupid then , so obvious and yet they missed all the clues. And give me a break , it took you long enough to work it out and obviously I am behind you in time and studying the case .
We have to take on board that we have the luxury of hindsight. All the police had, at the time, was the in formation fed to them by Jeremy who made a very fine job of telling them how competent was his mentally ill sister at handling fire arms.
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Seriously,what sort of an idiot would MAKE it look like suicide ?
To disguise murder.
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We have to take on board that we have the luxury of hindsight. All the police had, at the time, was the in formation fed to them by Jeremy who made a very fine job of telling them how competent was his mentally ill sister at handling fire arms.
I thought EP got all their information from the ones who didn't know the Bamber family ?
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I thought EP got all their information from the ones who didn't know the Bamber family ?
Ep got their first information from Bamber outside the farmhouse as he wove his tale.
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I thought EP got all their information from the ones who didn't know the Bamber family ?
Are you telling us that you were unaware that Jeremy stood outside WHF with the police giving them the low down on Sheila's mental state and her competency with guns?
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Ep got their first information from Bamber outside the farmhouse as he wove his tale.
Even bigger tales came from the relatives.
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Even bigger tales came from the relatives.
But Jeremy got there first LONG before anyone else.
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But Jeremy got there first LONG before anyone else.
Surprised he was not still out of breath from the bike ride across the field in the dark and hiding all the evidence on the way.
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Surprised he was not still out of breath from the bike ride across the field in the dark and hiding all the evidence on the way.
Don't think any of us have ever thought he used the bike or that he hid anything along the way.
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Surprised he was not still out of breath from the bike ride across the field in the dark and hiding all the evidence on the way.
Not sure who is saying he used the bike. HOW he got there no one knows. Nor does it need to be proven HOW he got there for him to be guilty... but for a counter to your posts about him being out of breath... At his age? I have friends that age that do a lot of cycling, 60/70 miles in a day in the summer when they go to France. My aunt in her sixties goes along too. Your post probably wasn't serious and was probably just a snipe at Jane - but on the off chance it was serious a few miles on a bike wouldn't be an issue for someone of that age. Far from it really.
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Surprised he was not still out of breath from the bike ride across the field in the dark and hiding all the evidence on the way.
He followed the police in his car. I don't recall suggesting he road a bike.
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Surprised he was not still out of breath from the bike ride across the field in the dark and hiding all the evidence on the way.
He worked up an appetite though when he drove the Police back to Bourtree Cottage.
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He worked up an appetite though when he drove the Police back to Bourtree Cottage.
Yes,a dockers breakfast--the full Monty.
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Ha ha rising to the bait.
I was just playing you all at your own game. You seem all to be getting more like Adam every day . So much fun.
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Ha ha rising to the bait.
I was just playing you all at your own game. You seem all to be getting more like Adam every day . So much fun.
Not sure why you would want to get a rise if you don't like back biting? Surely that is encouraging it?
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Not sure who is saying he used the bike. HOW he got there no one knows. Nor does it need to be proven HOW he got there for him to be guilty... but for a counter to your posts about him being out of breath... At his age? I have friends that age that do a lot of cycling, 60/70 miles in a day in the summer when they go to France. My aunt in her sixties goes along too. Your post probably wasn't serious and was probably just a snipe at Jane - but on the off chance it was serious a few miles on a bike wouldn't be an issue for someone of that age. Far from it really.
..though I did read somewhere he had a gammy knee, which prevented him from excelling at sport at Gresham's. It may be one explanation for his pretentiousness in other social situations.
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Not sure why you would want to get a rise if you don't like back biting? Surely that is encouraging it?
Yes of course I am. Or was it a double bluff?
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Yes of course I am. Or was it a double bluff?
Well, only you know your motives. :-\
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Well, only you know your motives. :-\
Motives? You make it sound like a crime. Perhaps you are thinking too deeply.
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I have just read what Colin said in his book (page 144 - 145) and actually, he said the opposite. He said she had a fiery temper BUT not physically violent. He said Sheila would never be physically violent to anyone and takes the blame for most of what was initially said in the newspapers and a lot of what he said was down to anger and grief.
In his statement he said Sheila was violent against him.
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In his statement he said Sheila was violent against him.
And in his book he explains why he said it and also that it wasn't true.
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Compare the letter in which Sheila had sent from Japan,to those which are being investigated at present.
There's a marked difference in the layout of the one to Colin,even though it goes off on a tangent where she states that those around her were " scared of her because of the staring " and she wanted to go home because of " odd " feelings that she had.
Anyone who can fly that distance can't have much wrong with them ! Competition too much ?
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Compare the letter in which Sheila had sent from Japan,to those which are being investigated at present.
There's a marked difference in the layout of the one to Colin,even though it goes off on a tangent where she states that those around her were " scared of her because of the staring " and she wanted to go home because of " odd " feelings that she had.
Anyone who can fly that distance can't have much wrong with them ! Competition too much ?
There have to be at least 6 years between those letters being written.
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And in his book he explains why he said it and also that it wasn't true.
Remind me? So Colin lied in his statement?
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Remind me? So Colin lied in his statement?
No he didn't lie in his statement, he said it wasn't true that Sheila was violent towards another person and that is exactly what he said in his statement and in his book. In his book he is referring to newspaper reports that suggested Sheila was violent and felt responsible that some of the things he said might have contributed to it.
He has made it CLEAR that she was violent to anyone - she had a temper but usually took it out on inanimate objects. Even though that is made clear, even now, people still use it to suggest she was violent so I can see why he might feel responsible.
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She would also be violent towards me and smash up my prize possessions.
That's what he said , the and is relevant , he did not say by smashing up my prize possessions.
I think he just regretted saying it.
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She would also be violent towards me and smash up my prize possessions.
That's what he said , the and is relevant , he did not say by smashing up my prize possessions.
I think he just regretted saying it.
Well that is your interpretation but I would rather believe what HE said, given that he's the one who had the experience.
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There have to be at least 6 years between those letters being written.
So ?
Long enough time in fact in which to change !
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So ?
Long enough time in fact in which to change !
In fact,in 2013,you'd said yourself that the apology to Jeremy for being horrible was more or less a precursor for what was about to happen.
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I had a look around and the quote about Jeremy is about the only thing I can find from the diaries. There is nothing to say whether the defence saw them at all but a mention they they were held under PII at one stage . And I know there is adicrepancy about when or if the family got them back. But it did seem that she wrote personal things in the diaries that would have embarrassed her family so it seems odd that there is nothing relevant in there at all , even if it was to back up medical reports about her state of mind.
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Motives? You make it sound like a crime. Perhaps you are thinking too deeply.
No, that's how you too it - perhaps you're thinking too deeply. People have motives in their everyday life - it doesn't just relate to crime.
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Motives in their everyday life ? Such as ? I don't live by motives even if you do.
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In fact,in 2013,you'd said yourself that the apology to Jeremy for being horrible was more or less a precursor for what was about to happen.
How VERY interesting. The woman who seems to lack the ability to use quotes and can't do links, is suddenly -miraculously- able to trawl through three years of my posts to pull out one in particular...................or should that be, she enlisted someone to do it on her behalf?
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How VERY interesting. The woman who seems to lack the ability to use quotes and can't do links, is suddenly -miraculously- able to trawl through three years of my posts to pull out one in particular...................or should that be, she enlisted someone to do it on her behalf?
I don't have to enlist anyone at all.I'm quite capable of doing a search,except that I wasn't looking for that particular post of yours,it just loomed out at me. It wasn't just your posts either,so don't feel flattered,but judging by your tone,you appear embarrassed.
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Well that is your interpretation but I would rather believe what HE said, given that he's the one who had the experience.
[/quot
Yes well we are all , I repeat all entitled to our own opinion.
I think that the violence under the surface comment , the original statement, the fact he was surprised sometimes had not killed each other does indicate that she could be violent. Perhaps he was embarrassed that he had not suspected the "truth" until informed . Like you say only he knows , so both of our anologies are only interpretations.
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I don't have to enlist anyone at all.I'm quite capable of doing a search,except that I wasn't looking for that particular post of yours,it just loomed out at me. It wasn't just your posts either,so don't feel flattered,but judging by your tone,you appear embarrassed.
I can't imagine why you'd think so. So I changed my mind and had the humility to admit I'd been wrong previously.
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Well that is your interpretation but I would rather believe what HE said, given that he's the one who had the experience.
[/quot
Yes well we are all , I repeat all entitled to our own opinion.
I think that the violence under the surface comment , the original statement, the fact he was surprised sometimes had not killed each other does indicate that she could be violent. Perhaps he was embarrassed that he had not suspected the "truth" until informed . Like you say only he knows , so both of our anologies are only interpretations.
OR he's a drama queen.
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I can't imagine why you'd think so. So I changed my mind and had the humility to admit I'd been wrong previously.
You were right previously, Its in the present you are wrong.
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You were right previously, Its in the present you are wrong.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.
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One advantage of changing camps , you are bound to be right at some point .
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I suppose there's that about it Jan.
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One advantage of changing camps , you are bound to be right at some point .
despite snides remarks being aimed at jane.i say well done jane you have the courage to admit being wrong in the past.if only taffy had the same.some on here think they are above making mistakes.they know who they are :)
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despite snides remarks being aimed at jane.i say well done jane you have the courage to admit being wrong in the past.if only taffy had the same.some on here think they are above making mistakes.they know who they are :)
Jane and Caroline are not worried. They have said so several times. They confirmed no one can afford to be sensitive on this site . They both give as good as they get. Like they said to me if you take offence block the poster and don't come on a site like this one. It's simple .
Probably why quite a lot of the original posters have gone.
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Now back to the note . I was going to ask mike a couple of questions , how was it found during the colp investigation? Also does he know if the defence were aware of Sheila's diaries?
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Jane and Caroline are not worried. They have said so several times. They confirmed no one can afford to be sensitive on this site . They both give as good as they get. Like they said to me if you take offence block the poster and don't come on a site like this one. It's simple .
Probably why quite a lot of the original posters have gone.
I believe it helps if one can remain emotionally detached on a forum like this where, because of the subject matter, feelings are likely to run high. Nevertheless, Sami's kind and generous words were appreciated.
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Motives in their everyday life ? Such as ? I don't live by motives even if you do.
So you have no motivation? How sad.
"Motivation
Ambition, Goals
How to Get Motivated
Motivation is literally the desire to do things. It's the difference between waking up before dawn to pound the pavement and lazing around the house all day. It's the crucial element in setting and attaining goals—and research shows you can influence your own levels of motivation and self-control. So figure out what you want, power through the pain period, and start being who you want to be."
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One advantage of changing camps , you are bound to be right at some point .
That's one more than some! ;)
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I can't imagine why you'd think so. So I changed my mind and had the humility to admit I'd been wrong previously.
You changed your mind after looking at both sides Jane - some will never budge because admitting they were wrong just isn't in their nature!
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Some will budge if and when they have information that convinces them . That's the point. Personally I have no problem changing my mind. I would be only to pleased to settle this in my own mind .
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Some will budge if and when they have information that convinces them . That's the point. Personally I have no problem changing my mind. I would be only to pleased to settle this in my own mind .
From what you say, it appears you already have.
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Some will budge if and when they have information that convinces them . That's the point. Personally I have no problem changing my mind. I would be only to pleased to settle this in my own mind .
Good luck with that!
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Good luck with that!
Thanks. :)
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Jane and Caroline are not worried. They have said so several times. They confirmed no one can afford to be sensitive on this site . They both give as good as they get. Like they said to me if you take offence block the poster and don't come on a site like this one. It's simple .
Probably why quite a lot of the original posters have gone.
Would you like to point out where we have said this?
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Would you like to point out where we have said this?
If you post the photo then you decide how many smilies to add or not, however, please refrain from telling me what to do - this makes it clear that you do have an attitude. If you don't like what I post, no need to read it.
If you're offended by this, you should see the site I got it from! It's a debate - chill out!
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If you post the photo then you decide how many smilies to add or not, however, please refrain from telling me what to do - this makes it clear that you do have an attitude. If you don't like what I post, no need to read it.
If you're offended by this, you should see the site I got it from! It's a debate - chill out!
Oh yeah, she totally tells you not to come on the site there. Stop fibbing Jan. You take a sentence someone says and turn it into three sentences.
There is an obsession on this site with putting words into guilters mouths. ;D
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Oh yeah, she totally tells you not to come on the site there. Stop fibbing Jan. You take a sentence someone says and turn it into three sentences.
There is an obsession on this site with putting words into guilters mouths. ;D
------Quite the reverse I'd have said !
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You changed your mind after looking at both sides Jane - some will never budge because admitting they were wrong just isn't in their nature!
Jane changed her mind because you did. With her head stuck up your backside she had no option but to be dragged onto the guilt ship
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If you post the photo then you decide how many smilies to add or not, however, please refrain from telling me what to do - this makes it clear that you do have an attitude. If you don't like what I post, no need to read it.
If you're offended by this, you should see the site I got it from! It's a debate - chill out!
So where did I tell you to stay off the forum?
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Oh yeah, she totally tells you not to come on the site there. Stop fibbing Jan. You take a sentence someone says and turn it into three sentences.
There is an obsession on this site with putting words into guilters mouths. ;D
Oh mat I am so disappointed that you also feel the need to wade in . This is not the only post where I have been told this . But personally I can't be bothered to push that search button again.
Again if you have a problem with me just pm me .
You know from the past I have always been honest with you and I am sure the posters who have since I came back called me sniping, holier than thou etc etc don't need back up from you . They are quite capable of making their point on their own .
Now back to the thread please.
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If you post the photo then you decide how many smilies to add or not, however, please refrain from telling me what to do - this makes it clear that you do have an attitude. If you don't like what I post, no need to read it.
If you're offended by this, you should see the site I got it from! It's a debate - chill out!
NOWHERE in that quote which you haven't properly quoted does Caroline voice the opinion that you shouldn't be on the forum. Also would you please find a post in which i have voiced that opinion.
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Jane changed her mind because you did. With her head stuck up your backside she had no option but to be dragged onto the guilt ship
i think I would know if Jane's head was up there. What's up? Are you jealous that you only have Lookout and a resentful Jan for company? Grow up people, if your theory is shit, just revise it!
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Oh mat I am so disappointed that you also feel the need to wade in . This is not the only post where I have been told this . But personally I can't be bothered to push that search button again.
Again if you have a problem with me just pm me .
You know from the past I have always been honest with you and I am sure the posters who have since I came back called me sniping, holier than thou etc etc don't need back up from you . They are quite capable of making their point on their own .
Now back to the thread please.
I'm not sniping - but as a guilter I have been accused in the past of telling people to leave the forum - it's a tactic and a bit of a shitty one - I am just saying the post you quoted from Caroline doesn't tell you to leave the forum. Not one bit.
If you are going to accuse people - back it up or take it back.
But I can understand why you'd want to get back on topic.
Jane changed her mind because you did. With her head stuck up your backside she had no option but to be dragged onto the guilt ship
These people only like you because you are on their side. If you were saying things they didn't like they would snipe at you too, it's very superficial sometimes. A bit like "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"
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i think I would know if Jane's head was up there. What's up? Are you jealous that you only have Lookout and a resentful Jan for company? Grow up people, if your theory is shit, just revise it!
Caroline that is exceedingly rude. Even for you. Why on earth should I be resentful?
what of ?
Your post does not even make sense.
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Oh mat I am so disappointed that you also feel the need to wade in . This is not the only post where I have been told this . But personally I can't be bothered to push that search button again.
Again if you have a problem with me just pm me .
You know from the past I have always been honest with you and I am sure the posters who have since I came back called me sniping, holier than thou etc etc don't need back up from you . They are quite capable of making their point on their own .
Now back to the thread please.
This isn't the only post you've been told what? Where in that post did I tell you to stay off the forum? You're certainly NOT being honest now!
Post where I told you to stay off the forum or have the guts to apologise!
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Oh mat I am so disappointed that you also feel the need to wade in . This is not the only post where I have been told this . But personally I can't be bothered to push that search button again.
Again if you have a problem with me just pm me .
You know from the past I have always been honest with you and I am sure the posters who have since I came back called me sniping, holier than thou etc etc don't need back up from you . They are quite capable of making their point on their own .
Now back to the thread please.
How dare you have the temerity to say "Back to the thread" after you throw out accusations about Caroline and me and when asked to substantiate them, back off in a condescending manner.
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Caroline that is exceedingly rude. Even for you. Why on earth should I be resentful?
what of ?
Your post does not even make sense.
Whatever Jan, can you now post where I told you to leave the forum?
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Whatever Jan, can you now post where I told you to leave the forum?
whatever ? Are you a teenager ?
I am doing what you suggested I am not reading your posts . I am blocking you . No doubt you will get quoted by your friend and I will have the unfortunate experience of having to read your posts . But I just want to discuss the case . Not get involved in your silly little games .
W
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whatever ? Are you a teenager ?
I am doing what you suggested I am not reading your posts . I am blocking you . No doubt you will get quoted by your friend and I will have the unfortunate experience of having to read your posts . But I just want to discuss the case . Not get involved in your silly little games .
W
As you can't produce evidence of what you're accusing us of saying and you're too damned ignorant to apologize, blocking both of us is probably the best -and only- course of action for you.
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As you can't produce evidence of what you're accusing us of saying and you're too damned ignorant to apologize, blocking both of us is probably the best -and only- course of action for you.
Of course you can join in as well . Nothing changes .
As predicted .
You can dish it out but you can't take it .
.
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Of course you can join in as well . Nothing changes .
As predicted .
You can dish it out but you can't take it .
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I'd call that projection, Jan. You've done nothing BUT dish (sh)it out since you came back.
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whatever ? Are you a teenager ?
I am doing what you suggested I am not reading your posts . I am blocking you . No doubt you will get quoted by your friend and I will have the unfortunate experience of having to read your posts . But I just want to discuss the case . Not get involved in your silly little games .
W
So I didn't tell you to leave the forum and you don't have the grace to apologise. Block me PLEASE!
You started the games with your sniping because I corrected you over Colin, another one who can't stand being wrong!
You don't have to read my posts - but you will ;)
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i think I would know if Jane's head was up there.
We all know. its rather obvious
if your theory is shit, just revise it!
Then take your own advice and make revised editions of trailergate, walletgate and Poppybacon bouquet. ::)
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We all know. its rather obvious
Then take your own advice and make revised editions of trailergate, walletgate and Poppybacon bouquet. ::)
I won't be making any revisions. You but can keep reading my posts, you might get another report out of it ;) ;D
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Thinking back on these letters of Sheila's,Jeremy could easily have said " yes,it's Sheila's writing ",but he didn't,instead,when shown them a couple or so years ago,he'd said not and more or less,unknowingly, dismissed the fact that they could have helped towards his release.
Simply because he didn't recognise that her writing would have altered along with her mental state,something that he didn't give a thought to,so he was being HONEST in his refusal to accept that the writing was that of Sheila's.
I sincerely hope that all goes well in securing him part of the freedom he so deserves. A few steps forward is better than none at all.
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Thinking back on these letters of Sheila's,Jeremy could easily have said " yes,it's Sheila's writing ",but he didn't,instead,when shown them a couple or so years ago,he'd said not and more or less,unknowingly, dismissed the fact that they could have helped towards his release.
Simply because he didn't recognise that her writing would have altered along with her mental state,something that he didn't give a thought to,so he was being HONEST in his refusal to accept that the writing was that of Sheila's.
I sincerely hope that all goes well in securing him part of the freedom he so deserves. A few steps forward is better than none at all.
A guilty man would have preyed upon these letters in a bid to gain freedom not dismiss them.
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Thinking back on these letters of Sheila's,Jeremy could easily have said " yes,it's Sheila's writing ",but he didn't,instead,when shown them a couple or so years ago,he'd said not and more or less,unknowingly, dismissed the fact that they could have helped towards his release.
Simply because he didn't recognise that her writing would have altered along with her mental state,something that he didn't give a thought to,so he was being HONEST in his refusal to accept that the writing was that of Sheila's.
I sincerely hope that all goes well in securing him part of the freedom he so deserves. A few steps forward is better than none at all.
Yesterday at 3.02 you maintained that Sheila's brained "was not addled at all" in which case there's have been nothing but her own possible sense of the dramatic to alter her writing.
Perhaps you could clarify whether you believe that Sheila was in the midst of a psychotic episode, as you've previously maintained OR, as you now seem to think, because she had a mind of her own and had stopped taking drugs she deemed to be no longer necessary, she was in full mental control.
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Thinking back on these letters of Sheila's,Jeremy could easily have said " yes,it's Sheila's writing ",but he didn't,instead,when shown them a couple or so years ago,he'd said not and more or less,unknowingly, dismissed the fact that they could have helped towards his release.
Simply because he didn't recognise that her writing would have altered along with her mental state,something that he didn't give a thought to,so he was being HONEST in his refusal to accept that the writing was that of Sheila's.
I sincerely hope that all goes well in securing him part of the freedom he so deserves. A few steps forward is better than none at all.
What would be the point of saying they were Sheila's handwriting? If he was lying he'd be found out when they were analysed.
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Yesterday at 3.02 you maintained that Sheila's brained "was not addled at all" in which case there's have been nothing but her own possible sense of the dramatic to alter her writing.
Perhaps you could clarify whether you believe that Sheila was in the midst of a psychotic episode, as you've previously maintained OR, as you now seem to think, because she had a mind of her own and had stopped taking drugs she deemed to be no longer necessary, she was in full mental control.
Anxiety,frustration and fear when writing can alter the way one writes,it doesn't necessarily have to be a psychotic episode or an addled brain.
If these letters had been written prior to the murders of that night then the urge to do so ( murder ) would be gee'd on in order to carry it through because of how they were worded.
We all know that the worse time for writing anything is when you're angry,as not only does your writing change,but the content too sometimes doesn't make sense but it doesn't mean to say that you have a health issue.
Sheila would also have been suffering the withdrawal symptoms from not taking her prescribed medication for a few days when having Haldol only, in her system.
It was mentioned yesterday that her medication was being reduced anyway,so whoever had reviewed this step had obviously thought that her condition didn't warrant the high doses as was first prescribed.
I think it's still questionable as to whether her condition was as bad as has been made out.
No harm in me having my own views is there ? How sad that you have to track my posts, to time as well.
Was that a tit for tat move on your part because I found an old post of yours yesterday ?? Mmmm.
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What would be the point of saying they were Sheila's handwriting? If he was lying he'd be found out when they were analysed.
Chances are,they wouldn't have been analysed.
Strange they weren't destroyed if it was thought the letters meant nothing !
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Anxiety,frustration and fear when writing can alter the way one writes,it doesn't necessarily have to be a psychotic episode or an addled brain.
If these letters had been written prior to the murders of that night then the urge to do so ( murder ) would be gee'd on in order to carry it through because of how they were worded.
We all know that the worse time for writing anything is when you're angry,as not only does your writing change,but the content too sometimes doesn't make sense but it doesn't mean to say that you have a health issue.
Sheila would also have been suffering the withdrawal symptoms from not taking her prescribed medication for a few days when having Haldol only, in her system.
It was mentioned yesterday that her medication was being reduced anyway,so whoever had reviewed this step had obviously thought that her condition didn't warrant the high doses as was first prescribed.
I think it's still questionable as to whether her condition was as bad as has been made out.
No harm in me having my own views is there ? How sad that you have to track my posts, to time as well.
Was that a tit for tat move on your part because I found an old post of yours yesterday ?? Mmmm.
NO! Purely because what you said today was SO contrary to what you'd so VERY recently, said.
The reduction of her meds has been done to death. It seems possible that the extremely high dose she was on might only be appropriate for those newly admitted to hospital. I very much doubt she'd have had withdrawal symptoms from not taking a drug only designed to counteract symptoms she was no longer experiencing.
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Thinking back on these letters of Sheila's,Jeremy could easily have said " yes,it's Sheila's writing ",but he didn't,instead,when shown them a couple or so years ago,he'd said not and more or less,unknowingly, dismissed the fact that they could have helped towards his release.
Simply because he didn't recognise that her writing would have altered along with her mental state,something that he didn't give a thought to,so he was being HONEST in his refusal to accept that the writing was that of Sheila's.
I sincerely hope that all goes well in securing him part of the freedom he so deserves. A few steps forward is better than none at all.
I don't think it was just that . I don't think he was convinced of the source of the letters.
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Chances are,they wouldn't have been analysed.
Strange they weren't destroyed if it was thought the letters meant nothing !
And yet they were supposed to have destroyed evidence that did mean something?
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Chances are,they wouldn't have been analysed.
Strange they weren't destroyed if it was thought the letters meant nothing !
As I said before I was told they were found during the COLP investigation , so I am not sure if the defence saw the notes , if they were in exsistance at the time of the crime.. Hence why they were not analysed.
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NO! Purely because what you said today was SO contrary to what you'd so VERY recently, said.
The reduction of her meds has been done to death. It seems possible that the extremely high dose she was on might only be appropriate for those newly admitted to hospital. I very much doubt she'd have had withdrawal symptoms from not taking a drug only designed to counteract symptoms she was no longer experiencing.
There'd been other drugs in which she should have been taking,not only those that counteracted the side-effects. There's a list of them somewhere.
The contradictions have been created by those,particularly Ferguson who'd originally given her a HIGH dose intramuscularly of Haldol and in the same breath told one and all that she didn't prove to be a danger-------------then why the high dose injection if that wasn't the case ? Was it a " just in case ?" Or did any of them know what they were doing ? Which naturally gives the impression that how Sheila was being treated was more an " experiment " than the full knowledge of what she was suffering from. I'm fully aware that medication for mental health issues is very hit and miss initially and what might appear as schizophrenia turns out to be severe depression brought on by the myriad of problems which frought Sheila's life.
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There'd been other drugs in which she should have been taking,not only those that counteracted the side-effects. There's a list of them somewhere.
The contradictions have been created by those,particularly Ferguson who'd originally given her a HIGH dose intramuscularly of Haldol and in the same breath told one and all that she didn't prove to be a danger-------------then why the high dose injection if that wasn't the case ? Was it a " just in case ?" Or did any of them know what they were doing ? Which naturally gives the impression that how Sheila was being treated was more an " experiment " than the full knowledge of what she was suffering from. I'm fully aware that medication for mental health issues is very hit and miss initially and what might appear as schizophrenia turns out to be severe depression brought on by the myriad of problems which frought Sheila's life.
The autopsy report give a comprehensive list of what was found in her system. There was nothing, other than a trace of marijuana, that hadn't been prescribed. It MAY be that it was the norm, back then, to prescribe high doses of certain drugs related to mental health -just in case??- since when such may have been deemed unnecessary.
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The autopsy report give a comprehensive list of what was found in her system. There was nothing, other than a trace of marijuana, that hadn't been prescribed. It MAY be that it was the norm, back then, to prescribe high doses of certain drugs related to mental health -just in case??- since when such may have been deemed unnecessary.
Mental health back then was more or less covered up and like in the Bamber household,wasn't spoken about. It's only this century that it's been recognised and brought to the fore to make people aware that it does exist. Newer drugs and an attitude without stigma is being practised widely so that those who think they have a problem can freely speak about it to their GP who can then advise them.
There certainly isn't the " shame " as there used to be. After assessment each type of problem is treated with the appropriate drug suitable for that particular illness,instead of a one size fits all approach as it once was.
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Years ago the spoken word was " he/she's gone a bit funny ",which more or less covered everything.
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Mental health back then was more or less covered up and like in the Bamber household,wasn't spoken about. It's only this century that it's been recognised and brought to the fore to make people aware that it does exist. Newer drugs and an attitude without stigma is being practised widely so that those who think they have a problem can freely speak about it to their GP who can then advise them.
There certainly isn't the " shame " as there used to be. After assessment each type of problem is treated with the appropriate drug suitable for that particular illness,instead of a one size fits all approach as it once was.
I can only say, from what's been said by experts and lay people alike, that I believe that Sheila was a PS. I've wrestled with her being bi-polar but it doesn't sit well with her imaginings of the religious kind which seemed to manifest themselves during her unmedicated states.
I still hold that she was depressed, despite what was said yesterday about her having a new job/home/money to look forward to. NONE of us can say -nor has the right- what causes depression in another person. Depression happens.
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Years ago the spoken word was " he/she's gone a bit funny ",which more or less covered everything.
Mental health may be more spoken about these days , however the treatment is still lacking unfortunately .
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And yet they were supposed to have destroyed evidence that did mean something?
Maybe they didn't think a suicide note was damning? ;D
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Mental health may be more spoken about these days , however the treatment is still lacking unfortunately .
You're telling me,even 30 odd years on we haven't gained much ground.
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You're telling me,even 30 odd years on we haven't gained much ground.
With mental health? Or the Bamber case.
Sorry. ;D :-[
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A young mother in America starts a prison sentence for drowning her toddler son so that she didn't have to share custody with his father.
Reports of abuse 5 days prior to the child's murder were unfounded after the mother had been visited by police and social workers. Talks of her attempted suicide were also questionable.
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A young mother in America starts a prison sentence for drowning her toddler son so that she didn't have to share custody with his father.
Reports of abuse 5 days prior to the child's murder were unfounded after the mother had been visited by police and social workers. Talks of her attempted suicide were also questionable.
And there are many reports of parents being killed by their son.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173491/Suspect-18-admits-stabbed-parents-death-home.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/16-year-old-son-accused-killing-parents-texas-home-article-1.1900890
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tyler-hadley-who-killed-his-parents-at-17-then-threw-party-sentenced-to-life/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/teen-accused-of-killing-parents-after-dad-handcuffed-him-in-house-party-dispute/
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Well of course,murder knows no bounds when it comes to gender.
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And there are many reports of parents being killed by their son.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173491/Suspect-18-admits-stabbed-parents-death-home.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/16-year-old-son-accused-killing-parents-texas-home-article-1.1900890
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tyler-hadley-who-killed-his-parents-at-17-then-threw-party-sentenced-to-life/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/teen-accused-of-killing-parents-after-dad-handcuffed-him-in-house-party-dispute/
None of these terrible tragedies happen in a vacuum but are the culmination of years of alleged abuse of some sort. To my mind this only strengthens the case against Jeremy Bamber and his year-long planning of murder.
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None of these terrible tragedies happen in a vacuum but are the culmination of years of alleged abuse of some sort. To my mind this only strengthens the case against Jeremy Bamber and his year-long planning of murder.
There is no reliable evidence he planned a murder. All of Mugfords testimony can be traced to their source none of it comes from Jeremy.
Who did he have murder Sheila while he was outside?
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There is no reliable evidence he planned a murder. All of Mugfords testimony can be traced to their source none of it comes from Jeremy.
Who did he have murder Sheila while he was outside?
He made sure all were dead, something Sheila in psychosis would not have done. He went back to finish off June, bashed Nevill unnecessarily and after all the hard work botched the shot to Sheila, so had to repeat, which only made it look all the more the mess that it was.
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He made sure all were dead, something Sheila in psychosis would not have done.
Now your really making things up.
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Now your really making things up.
Sheila was weary and ready for bed. She was tired at the two weekend parties, tired on the Sunday journey down, tired in the Tiptree shop, tired at the kitchen table and tired when asked to speak to Auntie Pam. I really can't explain it all further to you..
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Sheila was weary and ready for bed. She was tired at the two weekend parties, tired on the Sunday journey down, tired in the Tiptree shop, tired at the kitchen table and tired when asked to speak to Auntie Pam. I really can't explain it all further to you..
Tired of life perhaps?
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Cops originally believed the killer was Sheila herself, there's an old saying 'rely on your first instincts'...
(1) - http://www.wikihow.com/Follow-Your-Intuition
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If Bamber had been the killer, why would the prosecution and the police try to hide and conceal the bloodied finger and hand marks that were present at seven key locations, (1) the front lower part of Sheila's nightdress, (2) on the bible, (3) on the edge of the kitchen worktop near the ammunition and the telephone, (4) upon one of the 30 live rounds in the kitchen, (5) upon an empty cartridge box found in the gun cupboard, (6) upon the throat of June Bamber, and (7) on the top part of Sheila's right hand?
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If Bamber had been the killer, why would the prosecution and the police try to hide and conceal the bloodied finger and hand marks that were present at seven key locations, (1) the front lower part of Sheila's nightdress, (2) on the bible, (3) on the edge of the kitchen worktop near the ammunition and the telephone, (4) upon one of the 30 live rounds in the kitchen, (5) upon an empty cartridge box found in the gun cupboard, (6) upon the throat of June Bamber, and (7) on the top part of Sheila's right hand?
The hand of the killer certainly had blood upon it (7), the hand of the killer certainly attempted to throttle June Bamber (6) the hand of the killer may have handled an empty cartridge box (5), the hand of the killer certainly handled additional bullets whch needed putting into the gun (4), the hand of the killer was capable of making the bloodied marks on the edge of the kitchen worktop (3), and the bible (2), and lets not forget, that the bloodied hand of the killer certainly could have made the marks on the front lower part of the nightdress (1)...
Seems to me, that the deliberate attempt on the part of the prosecution, police and their witnesses to falsely claim that Sheila Caffells hands and feet were spotlessly clean, was designed to divert attention away fom these seven key locations where bloodied hand / fingermarks had been found and identified but not relied upon in any part of the prosecutions case. Worse still, if Sheila had not been responsible for making any of these marks, then why wasn't any of this key evidence introduced and used to help promote the idea that Bamber was the killer?
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Why wasnt any blood transferred onto the hand swabs (75) purportedly examined at the lab two months later?
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Why wasnt any blood transferred onto the hand swabs (75) purportedly examined at the lab two months later?
Funny how the original hand swabs (17) were rejected at the lab' on the 9th August 1985, because of a fear that some form of cross contamination occurred beforehand - this contamination no longer being an issue by the time the swabs reappeared in the 'guise of lab' item 75...
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Funny how the original hand swabs (17) were rejected at the lab' on the 9th August 1985, because of a fear that some form of cross contamination occurred beforehand - this contamination no longer being an issue by the time the swabs reappeared in the 'guise of lab' item 75...
Oh, I get it now...
The contamination 'evaporated', along with 'spirit used to test for the presence of lead deposit', hence why there appeared to be such a drastic difference in the levels of lead deposit on the swabs taken from Sheila Caffell two months before swabs were taken from testees at the lab' only a matter of days before all the swabs which were tested produced the dramatic differences...
The 'evaporation' of the contamination that was present when the swabs in the form of item 17 were taken to the lab' and rejected on the 9th August 1985, absent two months later upon the same hand swabs by which time the swabs had become item 75...
Testees hand swabs were only a couple of days old, by comparison...
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Getting back to the letters,a psychiatric expert in the forensics of letters written by a suicide patient will distinguish between a letter which had been written as being " despondent " or one which indicated insanity. Because the addressee was " Mummy ",it would indicate that the murders/suicide was an act of blame for which had Sheila survived,she'd have faced a prison sentence as the letter would have proved her sane when she wrote them. Sheila was also angry towards Colin,another act of blame included in the letter. Added together,these proved that there were relationship problems as well as others,in which the author tries to justify their own feelings and not those of others.
Sheila also told those that she'd met/befriended that she didn't get on with her mother,so the seed of blame and despondency was already planted. Many who knew Sheila had been fully aware of this,including her psychiatrist.
I can't imagine or envisage that anyone contemplating suicide would write a " composition " on their life before taking it !
Forensic psychiatry has come a long way since the mid-80's and if the said letters hadn't been ignored in the first place Jeremy wouldn't be where he is now. Apart from other aspects of the case !!
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5 days to go before the 1st of October? http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/
Someone can't count!
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Donations:
"We need to raise £1,530 in 28 days (before the 1st October), to pay for a forensic report on a series of handwritten pages by Sheila Caffell found at the scene. We believe this is a suicide letter".
Does this mean the CT have dismissed the possibility that the note in the bible was a suicide note. Or are they keeping their options open ?
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CT haven't dismissed anything and they're well on track regarding forensics.
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Is there a source of these hand written notes. I mean a police document saying it was there.
The only source I have seen is from the OS.
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Is there a source of these hand written notes. I mean a police document saying it was there.
The only source I have seen is from the OS.
I believe it was itemised/logged as part of scene of crime.
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I believe it was itemised/logged as part of scene of crime.
No, that was the note with the letters and numbers, which I have previously already posted in this thread.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=24796;image)
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No, that was the note with the letters and numbers, which I have previously already posted in this thread.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=24796;image)
That's not illegible though,is it ?
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Interesting letter Trudy has written to the Justice Minister regarding the non disclosure and requesting a meeting.
whether we believe him guilty or innocent, Essex police seem to think they are above the law. That cant be right. You would think there would be a legal angle on this but it doesn't say they are taking that route does it.
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No, that was the note with the letters and numbers, which I have previously already posted in this thread.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=24796;image)
Is this supposed to be a suicide note ?
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Interesting letter Trudy has written to the Justice Minister regarding the non disclosure and requesting a meeting.
whether we believe him guilty or innocent, Essex police seem to think they are above the law. That cant be right. You would think there would be a legal angle on this but it doesn't say they are taking that route does it.
So that's why Trudie has stopped posting vlogs.
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Interesting letter Trudy has written to the Justice Minister regarding the non disclosure and requesting a meeting.
whether we believe him guilty or innocent, Essex police seem to think they are above the law. That cant be right. You would think there would be a legal angle on this but it doesn't say they are taking that route does it.
There's more from the prosecution which contains false evidence regarding the window catches. The " supposed route " through which JB had exited. One minute EP had stated that everywhere had been locked/secured from the inside,the next they'd said he'd got out that way.
Did this " escape " occur a month later after it was said it was a murder ?
The window catches could only have been secured from the inside but the jury had been told that the windows were closed,but no mention of being secured. All windows were inspected by DCI Jones and found to have been secured from the inside !
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Is this supposed to be a suicide note ?
NO.
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There's more from the prosecution which contains false evidence regarding the window catches. The " supposed route " through which JB had exited. One minute EP had stated that everywhere had been locked/secured from the inside,the next they'd said he'd got out that way.
Did this " escape " occur a month later after it was said it was a murder ?
The window catches could only have been secured from the inside but the jury had been told that the windows were closed,but no mention of being secured. All windows were inspected by DCI Jones and found to have been secured from the inside !
No Lookout. There are 20 sources which say the kitchen window could be banged shut from outside.
The police on the night said all windows appeared to be shut. Apart from the upstairs small window. This was correct.
This issue has been closed for years.
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Interesting letter Trudy has written to the Justice Minister regarding the non disclosure and requesting a meeting.
whether we believe him guilty or innocent, Essex police seem to think they are above the law. That cant be right. You would think there would be a legal angle on this but it doesn't say they are taking that route does it.
Cannot see this happening, we have a system in place that Bamber uses called the CCRC and they have all the powers to do this for him, put there by the government.
What will the CCRC do to investigate my case?
The CCRC was created specially to review cases where someone says they have been the victim of a miscarriage of justice. We have special legal powers under section 17 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1995 which mean we can get any information that we need from any public body in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This means that we can get sensitive information from organisations like social services, the armed forces and intelligence agencies. We can obtain material that the police and the prosecution did not have to disclose to the defence (including Public Interest Immunity or PII material) and information from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority and others.
We will use our special legal powers to get the information we think we need to review a case. We may use any information to investigate a case, but we will always be very careful about releasing sensitive information to anyone outside the CCRC.
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No Lookout. There are 20 sources which say the kitchen window could be banged shut from outside.
The police on the night said all windows appeared to be shut. Apart from the upstairs small window. This was correct.
This issue has been closed for years.
WRONG ! The window can't secure itself after being " banged shut ",as just because that happens doesn't mean that it's in the same position if it had been secured from the inside--------which is what was first established by " Taff " Jones.
On the contrary, it's an issue which is being brought up in this next appeal.
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That's not illegible though,is it ?
illegible
adjective
1.
unable to be read or deciphered
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Trudi has launched the Crowdjustice which is a Crowdfunded public interest law which serves those involved with MOJ's/wrong-doings and is being used worldwide to raise funds in order to secure a third appeal for JB. This will run until the 29th of October when funds reaching £4,000 will be used to overturn this terrible injustice.
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WRONG ! The window can't secure itself after being " banged shut ",as just because that happens doesn't mean that it's in the same position if it had been secured from the inside--------which is what was first established by " Taff " Jones.
On the contrary, it's an issue which is being brought up in this next appeal.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6217.msg292259.html#msg292259
The issue is closed.
The CCRC will not hear his application if his points are this weak.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6217.msg292259.html#msg292259
The issue is closed.
The CCRC will not hear his application if his points are this weak.
No issues are closed when preparing for a third appeal----------don't be silly.It's re-opened again !
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illegible
adjective
1.
unable to be read or deciphered
::) I know what it means. What I said was that what you put on screen wasn't illegible.Now do you understand ? You're hard going at times.
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Cannot see this happening, we have a system in place that Bamber uses called the CCRC and they have all the powers to do this for him, put there by the government.
What will the CCRC do to investigate my case?
The CCRC was created specially to review cases where someone says they have been the victim of a miscarriage of justice. We have special legal powers under section 17 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1995 which mean we can get any information that we need from any public body in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This means that we can get sensitive information from organisations like social services, the armed forces and intelligence agencies. We can obtain material that the police and the prosecution did not have to disclose to the defence (including Public Interest Immunity or PII material) and information from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority and others.
We will use our special legal powers to get the information we think we need to review a case. We may use any information to investigate a case, but we will always be very careful about releasing sensitive information to anyone outside the CCRC.
Yes they have the power to do what you say but if you read it it clearly states the ep are not complying.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6217.msg292259.html#msg292259
The issue is closed.
The CCRC will not hear his application if his points are this weak.
you wish
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Yes they have the power to do what you say but if you read it it clearly states the ep are not complying.
If it's there they have the power to get it, doesn't matter if EP comply, they have special legal powers to get any information they need, that's why I said I cannot see the Justice minister meeting Trudy, the government set up the CCRC to deal fairly with MOJ, The CCRC is independent of everyone.
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If it's there they have the power to get it, doesn't matter if EP comply, they have special legal powers to get any information they need, that's why I said I cannot see the Justice minister meeting Trudy, the government set up the CCRC to deal fairly with MOJ, The CCRC is independent of everyone.
That was the idea.
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::) I know what it means. What I said was that what you put on screen wasn't illegible.Now do you understand ? You're hard going at times.
I highlighted the word DECIPHERED or are you telling us you know exactly what that note means?
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I highlighted the word DECIPHERED or are you telling us you know exactly what that note means?
I was actually referring to the letters and not that note.
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I was actually referring to the letters and not that note.
Adam asked
Is there a source of these hand written notes. I mean a police document saying it was there.
The only source I have seen is from the OS.
You replied
I believe it was itemised/logged as part of scene of crime.
I said
No, that was the note with the letters and numbers, which I have previously already posted in this thread.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=24796;image)
You then said
That's not illegible though,is it ?
I then said
illegible
adjective
1.
unable to be read or deciphered
You replied
::) I know what it means. What I said was that what you put on screen wasn't illegible.Now do you understand ? You're hard going at times.
My reply
I highlighted the word DECIPHERED or are you telling us you know exactly what that note means?
And finally
I was actually referring to the letters and not that note.
Basically you suggested the 'so called' suicide notes were given a crime reference, they weren't. The note with the crime reference was the one I posted. I believe it is THIS note that was described as 'illegible' because it can't be deciphered.
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I would have said that the letters were illegible,but not the notes that contain letters and numbers,which are legible. It's what they denote,rather than their illegibility ?
Illegible is when you can't make out the words in a letter,such as I was referring to.
We can all make out the letters and numbers as they're plain enough to see ( legible ) but what we don't know are their origins or what they represent. These aren't the ones which are being investigated.
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I would have said that the letters were illegible,but not the notes that contain letters and numbers,which are legible. It's what they denote,rather than their illegibility ?
Illegible is when you can't make out the words in a letter,such as I was referring to.
We can all make out the letters and numbers as they're plain enough to see ( legible ) but what we don't know are their origins or what they represent. These aren't the ones which are being investigated.
I posted the dictionary explanation for you but here it is again
illegible
adjective
1.
unable to be read or deciphered
You can't DECIPHER meaning from the note and as such it is ILLEGIBLE. You can argue all you like but the note with letters and numbers was found on the bedside table and given a crime reference number (picture already posted). Not the notes that people on this forum have been able to translate (as have the CP - although shoving in words that were never written for good measure), as such they can't be illegible.
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If it's there they have the power to get it, doesn't matter if EP comply, they have special legal powers to get any information they need, that's why I said I cannot see the Justice minister meeting Trudy, the government set up the CCRC to deal fairly with MOJ, The CCRC is independent of everyone.
The CCRC r underfundand stressed beyond belief with the weight of applications. They are also a government quango.
They asked for the information was told it couldn't be located. End of that's wrong by both ep and the CCRC.
wet her you believe him innocent or guilty justice I cant see why you wouldn't want the information to be disclosed.
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The CCRC r underfundand stressed beyond belief with the weight of applications. They are also a government quango.
They asked for the information was told it couldn't be located. End of that's wrong by both ep and the CCRC.
wet her you believe him innocent or guilty justice I cant see why you wouldn't want the information to be disclosed.
I don't think I said I wouldn't want the information disclosed, I merely pointed out I cannot see the Justice minister meeting Trudi, the CCRC advertise that they have all these powers to get whatever information they require, can you tell me what Jeremy asked for that couldn't be located?
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I don't think I said I wouldn't want the information disclosed, I merely pointed out I cannot see the Justice minister meeting Trudi, the CCRC advertise that they have all these powers to get whatever information they require, can you tell me what Jeremy asked for that couldn't be located?
Yes, I would like to know that too.
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Yes, I would like to know that too.
I think it's the hand written logs of the calls to the police Caroline?
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The CCRC r underfundand stressed beyond belief with the weight of applications. They are also a government quango.
They asked for the information was told it couldn't be located. End of that's wrong by both ep and the CCRC.
wet her you believe him innocent or guilty justice I cant see why you wouldn't want the information to be disclosed.
[/quoteAusterity has hit everyone not just the CCRC, every government department, every Council will tell you they are underfunded this is the world we live in. Having said that there are not many Countries would let someone have appeal after appeal after appeal, maybe if they stopped or limited the appeals the CCRC would not be so weighted down with applications?
Greater understanding or resources in the justice system about miscarriage's of justice in the first place might help prevent the falsely accused in the first place, this is the general feeling within Government.
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I think it's the hand written logs of the calls to the police Caroline?
I thought he had all of that. Otherwise why claim since 2010 that Neville called the same police station Bamber called. Which was the fifth furthest away police station ?
The logs are in one of the campaigns Youtube videos.
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https://youtu.be/JuiXtdq51Bg
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I thought he had all of that. Otherwise why claim since 2010 that Neville called the same police station Bamber called. Which was the fifth furthest away police station ?
The logs are in one of the campaigns Youtube videos.
I don't know if it is these Adam, maybe Notsure could tell us?
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http://tinyurl.com/Bamber-Petition-Page
This seems to be it.
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I thought he had all of that. Otherwise why claim since 2010 that Neville called the same police station Bamber called. Which was the fifth furthest away police station ?
The logs are in one of the campaigns Youtube videos.
They want the originals not just copies . I guess so they can be checked for any amendments that might not be obvious on copies .
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They want the originals not just copies . I guess so they can be checked for any amendments that might not be obvious on copies .
Oh yes. They may have amended the logs to hide that Neville had also called the fifth furthest away police station.
The logs on Youtube look original to me. Both handwritten. There are enough differences for the CT to jump on.
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Oh yes. They may have amended the logs to hide that Neville had also called the fifth furthest away police station.
The logs on Youtube look original to me. Both handwritten. There are enough differences for the CT to jump on.
You believe what you want-----I'm prepared to wait for the TRUTH.
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I don't think I said I wouldn't want the information disclosed, I merely pointed out I cannot see the Justice minister meeting Trudi, the CCRC advertise that they have all these powers to get whatever information they require, can you tell me what Jeremy asked for that couldn't be located?
read the letter on the website justice it explains all in that.
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I think it's in the letter Trudy wrote to the Justice secretary, I certainly read it o the ct site.
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Oh yes. They may have amended the logs to hide that Neville had also called the fifth furthest away police station.
The logs on Youtube look original to me. Both handwritten. There are enough differences for the CT to jump on.
I never said anything of the sort. Just explains why they may want to see the originals.
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Just as I'd hoped,a forensic psychiatrist is going to examine the letters to establish if they are indeed of a suicidal nature. A handwriting expert is used in the initial process.
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The notes would have been written since Sheila had left her own home and within the time she was at WHF, most probably on the night of the murders,as she wouldn't have brought them with her. They weren't the sort of notes/letters that one carries around in your handbag.
Beyond a doubt,they were of an admission of her intention,written in the past,present and future.
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The notes would have been written since Sheila had left her own home and within the time she was at WHF, most probably on the night of the murders,as she wouldn't have brought them with her. They weren't the sort of notes/letters that one carries around in your handbag.
Beyond a doubt,they were of an admission of her intention,written in the past,present and future.
Beyond a doubt eh? Bold statement - we'll return to this at a later date.
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Beyond a doubt eh? Bold statement - we'll return to this at a later date.
That's fine by me.
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That's fine by me.
The CT said they have samples of Sheila's handwriting, I wonder why they aren't willing to post this on the OS? I wonder if it's because they know that copies of the letters are online so we'd be able to compare them ourselves?
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The CT said they have samples of Sheila's handwriting, I wonder why they aren't willing to post this on the OS? I wonder if it's because they know that copies of the letters are online so we'd be able to compare them ourselves?
I don't think they'll be posting things in fits and starts,they'll wait until they have a " full house " of evidence and even then I don't think we'll be hearing anything that could jeopardise any forthcoming appeal.
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I don't think they'll be posting things in fits and starts,they'll wait until they have a " full house " of evidence and even then I don't think we'll be hearing anything that could jeopardise any forthcoming appeal.
Yes, that must be the reason ;D
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The notes would have been written since Sheila had left her own home and within the time she was at WHF, most probably on the night of the murders,as she wouldn't have brought them with her. They weren't the sort of notes/letters that one carries around in your handbag.
Beyond a doubt,they were of an admission of her intention,written in the past,present and future.
Lookout, you've managed to rewrite the case out of recognition, single-handed. You even manage to stand apart from other supporters but I suspect that's where you enjoy being.
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Lookout, you've managed to rewrite the case out of recognition, single-handed. You even manage to stand apart from other supporters but I suspect that's where you enjoy being.
I'm my own person,Jane with my own thoughts and don't even always agree with other supporters,so there
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I'm my own person,Jane with my own thoughts and don't even always agree with other supporters,so there
No need to point it out to me, Lookout. That's exactly what I said in my previous post.
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I've no idea why so much is being made of this?
Only a few weeks ago I finally received a box containing letters, cards, emails and books the police had seized following SH's death in custody.
After scanning through some of the items, I found several letters written by SH, one or two were copies of letters he appears to have sent others?
One of the letters is addressed to me and is dated 19th February 2014. It was never sent. He states in the letter he has put in an application to see a doctor as he had pains in his liver and kidneys which he thinks are linked to his previous overdose?
The police appear to have not thought this to have been of any evidential value to the Inquest, nor indeed did the Coroner? Presuming of course she was made aware of the letter?
The prison did not disclose anything about the application?
However it is recorded SH did not see anyone from healthcare in the 23 days leading up to his death.
I have been told this would have made no difference to the Inquest; I am therefore certain any note or letter written by Sheila will make no difference to Jeremy Bamber's campaign.
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Police records confirm that Sheila was present in the kitchen (7.37and 7.38am), and that her body was not upstairs in any bedroom by 8.10am. Additionally the rifle which was later photographed in Sheila's possession by 'DC 'Oakey (25) and PC Bird (26, onward) was confirmed resting against a first floor window by 7.15am...
No lies, no bullshit, but good old fashioned police records, containing information which the cops and the CPS daren't risk informing the jury which tried the matter about...
Why?
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There was a letter left to Sheila's birth mother,Christine, before the deaths which never came to light and was removed along with the other letters. An action was raised to obtain the said letter during the investigation, but no further action was ever taken.
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There was a letter left to Sheila's birth mother,Christine, before the deaths which never came to light and was removed along with the other letters. An action was raised to obtain the said letter during the investigation, but no further action was ever taken.
Another letter? :o
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Another letter? :o
Yes,but it's being kept quiet,obviously until all letters have been " tested ",then we'll hear next year.
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Sheila had described herself as having a " Madonna Complex ". I wonder why she saw herself as such ?
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Sheila had described herself as having a " Madonna Complex ". I wonder why she saw herself as such ?
Well even Doctor Ferguson was stumped on that one. Did she see herself as deep down virtuous rather than the Devil's Child her mother had painted her?
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Well even Doctor Ferguson was stumped on that one. Did she see herself as deep down virtuous rather than the Devil's Child her mother had painted her?
Maybe Dr.Ferguson wasn't up to speed with the variations which mental health could show itself. I wouldn't have gone as far as diagnosing schizophrenia myself,rather a personality disorder which the Madonna Complex covers a multitude of different problems. Narcissism for starters,where Sheila,when modelling,had to fit the part and constantly asked for reassurance. Short-term anorexia,which could have happened after the twins were born when she worried that she'd put on too much weight. Prior to that,her breast augmentation which proved that she wasn't happy with the way she'd looked.( I wonder who paid for that ? ) A high-maintenance girl which led her to her mental health problems.
To have openly admitted of having such a complex tells me that she knew what she was at,whereas having deeper problems such as schizophrenia a patient can't tell you what's wrong and most of the time they're in denial anyway.
Virtuous she wasn't,with her drug dabbling,etc. June would have had that quality which she was trying to project onto Sheila,but Sheila rebelled and went in opposite directions,but at the same time fighting with herself because of the control that her mother had over her.
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Maybe Dr.Ferguson wasn't up to speed with the variations which mental health could show itself. I wouldn't have gone as far as diagnosing schizophrenia myself,rather a personality disorder which the Madonna Complex covers a multitude of different problems. Narcissism for starters,where Sheila,when modelling,had to fit the part and constantly asked for reassurance. Short-term anorexia,which could have happened after the twins were born when she worried that she'd put on too much weight. Prior to that,her breast augmentation which proved that she wasn't happy with the way she'd looked.( I wonder who paid for that ? ) A high-maintenance girl which led her to her mental health problems.
To have openly admitted of having such a complex tells me that she knew what she was at,whereas having deeper problems such as schizophrenia a patient can't tell you what's wrong and most of the time they're in denial anyway.
Virtuous she wasn't,with her drug dabbling,etc. June would have had that quality which she was trying to project onto Sheila,but Sheila rebelled and went in opposite directions,but at the same time fighting with herself because of the control that her mother had over her.
I agree with a lot of this and the chronology-I think Sheila first felt she was going round the bend during the Japan modelling assignment and asked Colin to book her an appointment with a psychiatrist on her return. But I do believe schizophrenia did manifest itself and I don't know how it does develop, whether over time or suddenly you find yourself seeing a religious vision(which disappears with medication). I can't form any other diagnosis when you think you're Joan of Arc and you're banging yourself against the wall other than for it not to be schizophrenia, which in those days was controlled by drugs which stopped the hallucinations but which brought other unpleasant side-effects in their wake.
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I agree with a lot of this and the chronology-I think Sheila first felt she was going round the bend during the Japan modelling assignment and asked Colin to book her an appointment with a psychiatrist on her return. But I do believe schizophrenia did manifest itself and I don't know how it does develop, whether over time or suddenly you find yourself seeing a religious vision(which disappears with medication). I can't form any other diagnosis when you think you're Joan of Arc and you're banging yourself against the wall other than for it not to be schizophrenia, which in those days was controlled by drugs which stopped the hallucinations but which brought other unpleasant side-effects in their wake.
I believe that there's a clue here to Sheila having previously seen a psychiatrist. It simply isn't possible for one to decide, of one's own volition, to see a specific consultant without first having seen a GP. However, once the consultant has been seen, a call to their secretary is usually all that is necessary.
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I believe that there's a clue here to Sheila having previously seen a psychiatrist. It simply isn't possible for one to decide, of one's own volition, to see a specific consultant without first having seen a GP. However, once the consultant has been seen, a call to their secretary is usually all that is necessary.
I agree Jane, Sheila must have seen a psychiatrist before this event otherwise she would have had to have seen her GP initially on her return from Japan.
I believe schizophrenia develops over time but the symptoms can be masked.. Like many diseases it tends to begin to show symptoms in teenage years after puberty and would be exacerbated in a young woman by pregnancy. An early symptom of P.S. is chaotic behaviour which Sheila seems to have suffered from in her early teenage years, however chaos and similar symptoms can be dismissed as expected 'teenage' behaviour.
Sadly P.S. is often only recognised and diagnosed after a suicide attempt.
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Always supposing,and it's becoming pretty clear that Sheila wrote the letters,are they the ramblings of a sane person or not ?
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Always supposing,and it's becoming pretty clear that Sheila wrote the letters,are they the ramblings of a sane person or not ?
Clear? Is it? ???
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Clear? Is it? ???
Definite, I should have said, so as not to cause you confusion.
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Definite, I should have said, so as not to cause you confusion.
No, what you should have done is explain why you said that given that there is no evidence that Sheila wrote them in the first place. Also, if it's been 'kept quite' that there was 'yet another' note found at the scene, how come you know about it and if you were told (by someone) and that it should be 'kept quiet', how come you're posting it on the iternet? Seems to me that Sheila didn't have time to kill anyone, she was too busy writing notes!
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Always supposing,and it's becoming pretty clear that Sheila wrote the letters,are they the ramblings of a sane person or not ?
Do we know if the letters are definitely in Sheila's handwriting? Is there a specimen of her writing, and if so, where is it?
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Do we know if the letters are definitely in Sheila's handwriting? Is there a specimen of her writing, and if so, where is it?
I don't believe we do. I seem to think that at one time there was talk of a medium being involved? Whilst it may be possible to say whether the writing is male or female, there being no genetic familial link, I don't see how the writing can be said to be Sheila's..................albeit, it's genuinely SOMEONE'S writing.
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Do we know if the letters are definitely in Sheila's handwriting? Is there a specimen of her writing, and if so, where is it?
Hi Mendoza, no we don't that it is Sheila's handwriting. The CT have a copy of her handwriting but chose not to post a copy of it on the OS.
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Are we panicking ? Tut tut.
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Hi Mendoza, no we don't that it is Sheila's handwriting. The CT have a copy of her handwriting but chose not to post a copy of it on the OS.
I'm sure they'll tell you if you ask nicely.
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Are we panicking ? Tut tut.
Not in the slightest
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Maybe we should all just have an open mind regarding the alleged notes and their provenance etc. On the one hand, it doesn't seem credible that the notes would be forged, either contemporary with events or thirty years after the fact. If the notes were forged contemporary with events, then they could have been used as prosecution evidence against Jeremy Bamber (didn't the police have Sheila's diaries etc?). The fact that the notes weren't laid at Bamber's door in 1985 - suggests there was no concern at the time - with regard to the notes having been forged. It would be a bit crazy for the defence to forge rambling notes that contain a suicidal ideation - and then expend valuable funds (not easily gained) on having such notes examined by expert/s?
Having said that - we do not know in advance what said expert/s will suggest or conclude. It will present a puzzle if the notes cannot be linked with Sheila - as who else would have been writing such notes?
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Not in the slightest
::)
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Maybe we should all just have an open mind regarding the alleged notes and their provenance etc. On the one hand, it doesn't seem credible that the notes would be forged, either contemporary with events or thirty years after the fact. If the notes were forged contemporary with events, then they could have been used as prosecution evidence against Jeremy Bamber (didn't the police have Sheila's diaries etc?). The fact that the notes weren't laid at Bamber's door in 1985 - suggests there was no concern at the time - with regard to the notes having been forged. It would be a bit crazy for the defence to forge rambling notes that contain a suicidal ideation - and then expend valuable funds (not easily gained) on having such notes examined by expert/s?
Having said that - we do not know in advance what said expert/s will suggest or conclude. It will present a puzzle if the notes cannot be linked with Sheila - as who else would have been writing such notes?
Regarding your last paragraph,let's hope that the forensic experts compare handwritten notes/letters from other members of the family besides Sheila.
I must add that when one ? of the letters was shown to Jeremy a few years ago,he didn't recognise it as being Sheila's handwriting and it appeared he was quite adamant that it wasn't. Jan will bear me out on that.
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Surely,if JB was guilty,he'd have leapt at the idea that it was Sheila's writing ?
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Surely,if JB was guilty,he'd have leapt at the idea that it was Sheila's writing ?
I would have thought so... yes.
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What I do find odd is that there were two letters written by two women referring to their " deaths ". The other being the one which June had written,to be read after her death,which,presumably,Jeremy has in his possession. It's on the forum somewhere and begins : " My Darlings ".
I've often wondered when that was written and where it was " found " ?
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Hi Mendoza, no we don't that it is Sheila's handwriting. The CT have a copy of her handwriting but chose not to post a copy of it on the OS.
Thank you Jane and Caroline. Even if the note is found to have been written by Sheila, I don't think it could be proved that it was a suicide note, as it seems to be just vague ramblings really. IMO, it wouldn't get Jeremy's case to the CoA. Anyway, she could have written it at any time, not necessarily on that night, as there's no date on it.
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Thank you Jane and Caroline. Even if the note is found to have been written by Sheila, I don't think it could be proved that it was a suicide note, as it seems to be just vague ramblings really. IMO, it wouldn't get Jeremy's case to the CoA. Anyway, she could have written it at any time, not necessarily on that night, as there's no date on it.
The notes may precede the killings in close proximity. Sheila references her birth mother Christine - whom she had only met a couple of weeks earlier. The stated intent that Sheila and her 'babies' would 'go to their rest' indicates that the twins were with her - and she envisages this event will take place quite soon.
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Thank you Jane and Caroline. Even if the note is found to have been written by Sheila, I don't think it could be proved that it was a suicide note, as it seems to be just vague ramblings really. IMO, it wouldn't get Jeremy's case to the CoA. Anyway, she could have written it at any time, not necessarily on that night, as there's no date on it.
Would you have thought that these " vague ramblings " were normal then ?
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Surely,if JB was guilty,he'd have leapt at the idea that it was Sheila's writing ?
No one would just take his word for it.
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No one would just take his word for it.
So it obviously is her writing then if that's what you think ?
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So it obviously is her writing then if that's what you think ?
Eh? That isn't the note that was given a reference it was this one. Clearly the one mentioned on thr CT website isn't illegible' as they list what it say's. This the illegible note (we've been here before) - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,197.msg520.html#msg520
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Would you have thought that these " vague ramblings " were normal then ?
I think that Sheila was in the throes of clinical depression certainly, and this allied to her schizophrenia would possibly have led her to scrawl notes like this in her anguish. I don't see it as a suicide note though, as it is just too vague. Also, if this was found at the scene, why hasn't it come to the defence notice before.
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I think that Sheila was in the throes of clinical depression certainly, and this allied to her schizophrenia would possibly have led her to scrawl notes like this in her anguish. I don't see it as a suicide note though, as it is just too vague. Also, if this was found at the scene, why hasn't it come to the defence notice before.
Apparently the Police filed it away as illegible. I do find the reference to the Police coming(or whatever the words) unsettling, though with Mike's conversation with Bamber coming to light about the "clever bastard" remark, sussing that he might have carried out Sheila's intentions, revealing.
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I think that Sheila was in the throes of clinical depression certainly, and this allied to her schizophrenia would possibly have led her to scrawl notes like this in her anguish. I don't see it as a suicide note though, as it is just too vague. Also, if this was found at the scene, why hasn't it come to the defence notice before.
Too vague ? Sheila had already previously told Dr Ferguson that " she could kill her children,and that one of them would rape and murder her ",so it looks like he too thought she was being vague----------or only kidding, so he ignored her,like you would ?
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Too vague ? Sheila had already previously told Dr Ferguson that " she could kill her children,and that one of them would rape and murder her ",so it looks like he too thought she was being vague----------or only kidding, so he ignored her,like you would ?
When did she say that Lookout?
Jeremy had also mentioned wanting to kill his parents so .....
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When did she say that Lookout?
Jeremy had also mentioned wanting to kill his parents so .....
In one of Ferguson's reports. It's entered in her medical reports,Jeremy's wasn't.
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In one of Ferguson's reports. It's entered in her medical reports,Jeremy's wasn't.
Yes, in what year Lookout?
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Yes, in what year Lookout?
Does it matter in what year ? I'D worry about the fact she said it !!
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In one of Ferguson's reports. It's entered in her medical reports,Jeremy's wasn't.
That would be the one from 1983, during her first stay, I believe. Dr Ferguson says that, in her second visit, in 1985 she hardly mentioned her family/children.
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That would be the one from 1983, during her first stay, I believe. Dr Ferguson says that, in her second visit, in 1985 she hardly mentioned her family/children.
And so ?
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And so ?
If she didn't mention it during her second visit, why would he have been concerned that she still had thoughts about it?
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If she didn't mention it during her second visit, why would he have been concerned that she still had thoughts about it?
Because ONCE should have been enough to have rung alarm bells when a patient has been sectioned !
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Because ONCE should have been enough to have rung alarm bells when a patient has been sectioned !
As it did. Under her FIRST section and was duly noted.