Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: zoe on August 08, 2016, 01:34:AM
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Nothing, zilch, zero.
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Nothing, zilch, zero.
Nothing was found by the police.
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Nothing was found by the police.
..because it was his second home. Don't be ridiculous.
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Thanks guys, nothing, zilch, zero
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Nothing was found by the police.
They weren't looking for a silencer. They were probably overawed by the big Georgian house.
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..because it was his second home. Don't be ridiculous.
What's that got to do with anything?
No evidence of forced entry. No bloody fingerprints or shoe prints. No bloody exhibits found in his first home.
Your the one being ridiculous. Do you still think Robin Bain got those gun clip marks on his finger from a chainsaw? ::)
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No silencer!!! nothing, zilch, zero.
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What's that got to do with anything?
No evidence of forced entry. No bloody fingerprints or shoe prints. No bloody exhibits found in his first home.
Your the one being ridiculous. Do you still think Robin Bain got those gun clip marks on his finger from a chainsaw? ::)
Experts differ, but the marks were consistent with pre-existing damage to the skin surface. You really must take all the evidence in totality and not hone in on soot on Sheila's hand or in this case marks to Robin Bain's thumb when the bigger picture is that he loved his whole family including Arawa, his daughter, who was following in his footsteps by training to be a teacher. Under these circumstances the suicide note is a very sick joke, and when you get older and have more experience of life and people you will understand this. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11136233
As for Jeremy Bamber, it was easy just to leave a window ajar.
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Nothing, zilch, zero.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7204.msg367626.html#msg367626
You are obviously not very well read on the case. Or refuse to look at the evidence. Or are simply a Bamber supporter who as a new poster wants to makes big, wrong soundbite to make an impact, without elaborating on it. Which you know other supporters will support.
David should know better. He knows there is a mountain of forensic evidence against Bamber. Most recently discussing on 'Why Bamber would pull Sheila's leg thread'.
There is a mountain of forensic evidence. Over a hundred pieces. Some in the ibrary above.
Bambers supporters can't even explain how Sheila committed the massacre. But feel free to be the first.
There is no evidence Sheila committed the massacre.
There is also a mountain of circumstantial evidence. Several motives, an opportunity, no alibi and knowledge from the only alive suspect that there was 'something wrong at the farm'. There is also a witness who apparently risked everything because she was apparently jilted.
It is preposturous to believe Sheila ran around like Rambo. Barefooted in her nightie. Killing people with a rabbit rifle and brutally beating a 6.4 man twice as big as her. In all the shooting Neville ringing Bamber and then the police 26 minutes later.
Anyway, I look forward to you're explanation.
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Lol! your long winded thread is also telling me alot about the type of personality YOU are! lol. Where is the forensic evidence that Jeremy Bamber killed his family? not a difficult question is it?
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There is NO forensic evidence whatsoever because t wasn't him who carried out the murders. Even the cops knew and TOLD DB that there was no evidence to suspect JB. The rellies decided that there was when they couldn't bear the thought of a 24 year old " cuckoo " Lording it over them !!
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Lol! your long winded thread is also telling me alot about the type of personality YOU are! lol. Where is the forensic evidence that Jeremy Bamber killed his family? not a difficult question is it?
I just gave you a link to the library.
Everything that shows it was not Sheila, means it was Bamber.
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Nothing, zilch, zero.
And the evidence on Sheila? Spots of blood from the 5 victims? Just one? No, not one, nothing, zilch, zero. Jeremy had time (plenty of time) to get rid of clothes he wore that might have been covered in blood spots - it might explain why he chose to burn his parents clothes in the farm fire pit. We KNOW Sheila's clothes were free from other victims blood, we don't know that Jeremy's were.
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You cannot commit 5 murders without leaving a forensic trial! not possible.
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No silencer!!! nothing, zilch, zero.
So where is the forensic evidence which says Sheila did it?
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You cannot commit 5 murders without leaving a forensic trial! not possible.
Perhaps you can outline, for us, the forensic trail left by Sheila?
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You cannot commit 5 murders without leaving a forensic trial! not possible.
Of course it's possible. Bamber was padded up and shot 4 people without any problems.
The forensic trail shows it was not Sheila anyway.
Anyway. I look forward to you're explanation of how Sheila committed the massacre. To match the crime scene and bullet allocation. Please include Neville's two phone calls and the kitchen fight.
Have I done a breakdown on Bamber committing the massacre ? Of course. Available upon request.
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Perhaps you can outline, for us, the forensic trail left by Sheila?
was there not two investigations and the material from the first was put away as that was when shiela was supposed to have done it.
im sure i read it somewhere but my recall isnt that great but maybe just maybe there is witheld evidence against shiela in these documents.
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was there not two investigations and the material from the first was put away as that was when shiela was supposed to have done it.
im sure i read it somewhere but my recall isnt that great but maybe just maybe there is witheld evidence against shiela in these documents.
I think there undoubtedly were two investigations but if there had been conclusive evidence AGAINST Sheila in the first one, WHY would they have needed to start again -from scratch- in order to manufacture a case against an innocent Jeremy?
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I think there undoubtedly were two investigations but if there had been conclusive evidence AGAINST Sheila in the first one, WHY would they have needed to start again -from scratch- in order to manufacture a case against an innocent Jeremy?
This is the $6,000 question that we'd all like to know.
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This is the $6,000 question that we'd all like to know.
So we have EP -who are known to have cocked up the recent Diana Jones case by being unable to break the alleged murderer- with a cast-iron case against one Sheila Caffell, a paranoid schizophrenic, recently released from a psych unit, and they risk it by trying to frame her innocent brother, who, because he's innocent stands every chance of walking when the case gets to court, leaving EP with heavily egg stained faces, YET again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How does ANY of that make sense?
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And the evidence on Sheila? Spots of blood from the 5 victims? Just one? No, not one, nothing, zilch, zero. Jeremy had time (plenty of time) to get rid of clothes he wore that might have been covered in blood spots - it might explain why he chose to burn his parents clothes in the farm fire pit. We KNOW Sheila's clothes were free from other victims blood, we don't know that Jeremy's were.
exactly caroline we dont know, we cant assume guilt on i dont knows.
far too many mojs on circumstantial and non disclosure
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So we have EP -who are known to have cocked up the recent Diana Jones case by being unable to break the alleged murderer- with a cast-iron case against one Sheila Caffell, a paranoid schizophrenic, recently released from a psych unit, and they risk it by trying to frame her innocent brother, who, because he's innocent stands every chance of walking when the case gets to court, leaving EP with heavily egg stained faces, YET again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How does ANY of that make sense?
mmmmm its difficult isng it. I just wish i could be as sure as you are but its not convincing enough for me.
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mmmmm its difficult isng it. I just wish i could be as sure as you are but its not convincing enough for me.
Well, I guess that you are the only one who knows what it WOULD take to convince you. I have NO idea what might be in those things -allegedly- held under PII, but a rough guess says it could only be something which incriminates Sheila and my original question still stands. WHY, when they had a legitimate culprit, would they chose to set all that to one side -wasting both man-power and public money- to work out a plan to incriminate an entirely innocent person?
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exactly caroline we dont know, we cant assume guilt on i dont knows.
far too many mojs on circumstantial and non disclosure
I can assume it - I do assume it and I'm pretty sure based on circumstantial evidence. Especially the phone calls, the timings etc.
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Just read another sad story about a murder/suicide. Two adults and three children. A gun was found but it's yet to be established as to who'd fired it.
The wife suffered anxiety problems after the youngest child had suffered congenital heart disease and she'd blamed herself for her daughter having lived where others hadn't. There were constant rows in the household due to the heart issues of the younger daughter.
The wife had also suffered from PTSD of which she'd said,never goes and she'd struggled emotionally with the daughter's heart condition.
What does go on in the minds of those whose decision it is to wipe out ALL the family ?
A lovely family,so very sad.
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Well, I guess that you are the only one who knows what it WOULD take to convince you. I have NO idea what might be in those things -allegedly- held under PII, but a rough guess says it could only be something which incriminates Sheila and my original question still stands. WHY, when they had a legitimate culprit, would they chose to set all that to one side -wasting both man-power and public money- to work out a plan to incriminate an entirely innocent person?
Well it might not incriminate shiela but there could be somethi g in them that proves certain things like the movement in the house and the calls.
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Well it might not incriminate shiela but there could be somethi g in them that proves certain things like the movement in the house and the calls.
Hmm? It's always been my understanding that negatives can't be proved.
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So we have EP -who are known to have cocked up the recent Diana Jones case by being unable to break the alleged murderer- with a cast-iron case against one Sheila Caffell, a paranoid schizophrenic, recently released from a psych unit, and they risk it by trying to frame her innocent brother, who, because he's innocent stands every chance of walking when the case gets to court, leaving EP with heavily egg stained faces, YET again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How does ANY of that make sense?
Jane,if police can lay blame on 96 people,how much easier for just 1 person ? When you know how, and also with the backing of a lying woman and a greedy family.
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Jane,if police can lay blame on 96 people,how much easier for just 1 person ? When you know how, and also with the backing of a lying woman and a greedy family.
Lookout, it sometimes sounds as if you WANT the police to have framed Jeremy in order to give you some retrospective revenge on their past misdeeds.
If anything you believe is anywhere CLOSE to being true, there's a whole library, collecting dust, of incriminating evidence against Sheila, which I imagine you believe gives proof of Nevill's alleged call to the police, be it via 999 OR looking up the number like Jeremy. I will never believe, that after their appalling cock up in the Diana Jones case, they'd have once again allowed themselves to be shown up as incompetents by announcing, after a month, that Sheila was a victim, NOT the culprit. NOR do I believe she was as powerful and devious -at 21- as you would have us believe.
As a codicil, IF such evidence had ever existed, it's highly unlikely that it still does. It would have been consigned to an incinerator long since to protect the guilty.......................indeed, hasn't Jeremy said, on several occasions that he has everything there is?
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Hmm? It's always been my understanding that negatives can't be proved.
They can, but in a philosophical sense the burden of proof is on the one who asserts the positive.
If someone tells me scientology is real and xenu exists, the burden is on them to prove it. I am not obliged to prove to them scientology is not real and that xenu does not exist.
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They can, but in a philosophical sense the burden of proof is on the one who asserts the positive.
If someone tells me scientology is real and xenu exists, the burden is on them to prove it. I am not obliged to prove to them scientology is not real and that xenu does not exist.
The nonexistence of the alleged material can't be established beyond reasonable doubt.
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They can, but in a philosophical sense the burden of proof is on the one who asserts the positive.
If someone tells me scientology is real and xenu exists, the burden is on them to prove it. I am not obliged to prove to them scientology is not real and that xenu does not exist.
So Jeremy is obliged to prove he is innocent and to prove that such documents do exist.
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So Jeremy is obliged to prove he is innocent and to prove that such documents do exist.
No the crown has to prove he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. its apparent they don't play fair but what can you do
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No the crown has to prove he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. its apparent they don't play fair but what can you do
I'm talking about now, not then.
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I am looking forward to a breakdown on how Sheila committed the massacre. Which was requested twice to the same poster yesterday on this thread.
This has been asked before but has been asked in this thread as a claim has been made that there is no evidence of Bamber's guilt. So it must be Sheila, right ?
The breakdown can be basic but must match the bullet allocations and body locations and include two rifle chambers/reloads, two phone calls and one fight.
There are over a hundred pieces of forensic evidence which show Sheila did not commit the massacre. Even if there wasn't, the fact that no one can give a breakdown of how Sheila could committ the massacre to match the forensic evidence, is already enough.
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Jeremy is INNOCENT !
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I'm talking about now, not then.
It still applies now. Very few convictions are quashed on the basis of the appellant proving factual innocence.
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It still applies now. Very few convictions are quashed on the basis of the appellant proving factual innocence.
He has to have something compelling enough to get him to the COA.
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He has to have something compelling enough to get him to the COA.
He could prove his innocence, they still wouldn't accept it. Using the sound moderator as justification, works all the time.
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He could prove his innocence, they still wouldn't accept it. Using the sound moderator as justification, works all the time.
That doesn't prove innocence.
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He could prove his innocence, they still wouldn't accept it. Using the sound moderator as justification, works all the time.
If he admitted to his crimes minus the silencer there might be consequences for the relatives.
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If he admitted to his crimes minus the silencer there might be consequences for the relatives.
It's not going to happen Steve.
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Just read another sad story about a murder/suicide. Two adults and three children. A gun was found but it's yet to be established as to who'd fired it.
The wife suffered anxiety problems after the youngest child had suffered congenital heart disease and she'd blamed herself for her daughter having lived where others hadn't. There were constant rows in the household due to the heart issues of the younger daughter.
The wife had also suffered from PTSD of which she'd said,never goes and she'd struggled emotionally with the daughter's heart condition.
What does go on in the minds of those whose decision it is to wipe out ALL the family ?
A lovely family,so very sad.
They seemed the perfect family, but were placed under tremendous stress with the medical bills arising from their daughter's heart condition. It seemed as if the husband's efforts were not deemed enough, though one never knows the full story. http://www.inquisitr.com/3398834/megan-short-mother-of-three-killed-in-murder-suicide-had-planned-to-leave-her-husband-that-day-for-another-woman/
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Adam, why should anyone give you and account of what happened that night, when most of the evidence against Sheila has been placed on a gagging order from the state? again your sentiment means absolutely nothing!!
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Adam, why should anyone give you and account of what happened that night, when most of the evidence against Sheila has been placed on a gagging order from the state? again your sentiment means absolutely nothing!!
No one disputes the body locations, amount of bullets fired and bullet allocation, the two rifle chambers/reloads and the kitchen fight. Neville also made two phone calls to Bamber at 3.10am and Chelmsford police at 3.26am.
A breakdown will be a big boost as this week, no one was even able to explain what Neville was doing when Sheila opened fire.
As said, my breakdown of how Bamber committed the massacre is available upon request. It matches the evidence. Obviously I didn't have to include Neville's two phone calls.
Please provide you're breakdown of how Sheila committed the massacre to match the above undisputed evidence. Thank you.
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No one disputes the body locations, amount of bullets fired and bullet allocation, the two rifle chambers/reloads and kitchen fight. Neville also made two phone calls to Bamber at Chelmsford police at 3.10am and 3.26am.
Please provide you're breakdown to match this. Thank you.
I don't believe what happened in the kitchen could be described as a fight.
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I don't believe what happened in the kitchen could be described as a fight.
42. The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.
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33: In the kitchen the police found Nevill Bamber's body slumped forward over an overturned chair next to the hearth, so that his head was just above a coal scuttle. The police evidence was that there were other chairs and stools upturned and broken crockery, sugar and what appeared to be spots of blood on the floor. A ceiling light lampshade had also been broken. It will be necessary to address further these matter later but on the evidence available at trial, it appeared as though a violent struggle had taken place.
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Id prefer not to speculate on anything to be honest and would rather take advice from an experts opinion who are qualified in whichever field appropriate.
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Id prefer not to speculate on anything to be honest and would rather take advice from an experts opinion who are qualified in whichever field appropriate.
There is no speculating involved. You just say how Sheila would have committed the massacre which matches the accepted published crime scene.
If you can't create a breakdown after trying, or want to miss out Neville's call to Chelmsford police, just say.
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Id prefer not to speculate on anything to be honest and would rather take advice from an experts opinion who are qualified in whichever field appropriate.
Excluding Nevilles call to the police does not make Bamber guilty. It just means Neville only called Bamber.
But appreciate supporters don't want to give up this card. Although Neville being alive and fully fit at 3.36am, means Sheila had to cram in an hours worth of actions into 15 minutes.
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I don't have to answer to your demands! what is this the Spanish inquisition? bore off!
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I don't have to answer to your demands! what is this the Spanish inquisition? bore off!
It was not a demand.
You're 3 word thread suggested you believe Bamber is innocent. The normal thing to then do is then say how the only other suspect, Sheila, committed the massacre. The crime scene is available.
You've refused although I asked several days ago. As you can't. Therefore you are supporting someone you know killed 5 members of his family.
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Yes, your right Adam as always, well done.
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Yes, your right Adam as always, well done.
Good. Pleased you won't be claiming Bamber is innocent.
Dó you think he shot the twins or June/Neville first ?
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42. The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.
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33: In the kitchen the police found Nevill Bamber's body slumped forward over an overturned chair next to the hearth, so that his head was just above a coal scuttle. The police evidence was that there were other chairs and stools upturned and broken crockery, sugar and what appeared to be spots of blood on the floor. A ceiling light lampshade had also been broken. It will be necessary to address further these matter later but on the evidence available at trial, it appeared as though a violent struggle had taken place.
Yes, Adam, I have read all that.
I meant that bludgeoning someone who has been shot 5 times already is not a 'fight' or a 'violent struggle'. A fight is an exchange of blows or weapons between combatants. In this case it was all one way regardless of who was involved i.e. Sheila or Jeremy.
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Good. Pleased you won't be claiming Bamber is innocent.
Dó you think he shot the twins or June/Neville first ?
Bamber is INNOCENT !!
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Yes, Adam, I have read all that.
I meant that bludgeoning someone who has been shot 5 times already is not a 'fight' or a 'violent struggle'. A fight is an exchange of blows or weapons between combatants. In this case it was all one way regardless of who was involved i.e. Sheila or Jeremy.
If Neville got downstairs and just slumped on top of the coal scuttle after being shot 4 times, why did he have two black eyes, a broken nose, bruising to the cheeks, arms, head, wrist and forearm and marks from the rifle butt ? And why was there so much upturned furniture ?
June was still alive when Sheila returned upstairs, but she didn't get beaten.
If Neville did put up a 'tremendous fight for life' as the judge said and the evidence shows, why was Sheila unmarked ?
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Disarranged kitchen brought about by the raid team when they stormed in------as they do !
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Two black eyes would result from a broken nose, not separate injuries, the result of one.
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Disarranged kitchen brought about by the raid team when they stormed in------as they do !
I can quite see why someone, wishing to create the illusion of a fight having occurred, would deliberately set such a scene. However, I fail to see why such would be necessary for a raid team who may have considered that silence would have been a better bet.
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I can quite see why someone, wishing to create the illusion of a fight having occurred, would deliberately set such a scene. However, I fail to see why such would be necessary for a raid team who may have considered that silence would have been a better bet.
Silence ? Battering a front door down ?
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Disarranged kitchen brought about by the raid team when they stormed in------as they do !
I get it.
The raid team knocked everything over and smashed a light and crockery. Even though they are trained not to disturb a crime scene.
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Two black eyes would result from a broken nose, not separate injuries, the result of one.
I get it.
One punch on the nose will result in a broken nose and two black eyes.
Sheila must have had a strong punch for a 7 stone woman. Or was this the raid team as well.
Why would Sheila do this ? Lebaleb said Neville put up no resistance and just slumped over the coal scuttle.
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I'm prepared to go some way that the Raid Team caused damage but surely not to break the ceiling light?
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I'm prepared to go some way that the Raid Team caused damage but surely not to break the ceiling light?
What made the raid team knock over stools & sugar bowls, smash crockery and a ceiling light ?
They are trained not to and everyone inside WHF was dead.
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i dont have repeat myself, same injury im afraid, you can ask a Dr if you dont agree, probably done with the butt.
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i dont have repeat myself, same injury im afraid, you can ask a Dr if you dont agree, probably done with the butt.
I am not going to ask anyone. You need to provide a source as you said it.
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What made the raid team knock over stools & sugar bowls, smash crockery and a ceiling light ?
They are trained not to and everyone inside WHF was dead.
Because they were crapping themselves. The didn't know every one was dead.
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Because they were crapping themselves. The didn't know every one was dead.
Best not to knock over stools, sugar bowls, smash crockery and ceiling lights then.
Why would they be scared ? They were experienced, padded up and with guns.
Anyway the evidence shows there was a massive kitchen fight between Neville and Bamber. This was straight after Bamber had unloaded all bullets in his opening salvo upstairs.
Unless someone can tell me when the kitchen fight between Sheila and Neville occurred.
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ok ill source myself! had it happen to me kicked in face, two nicely closed up black eyes and an operation to re break my nose to set it, two more black eyes again after op! usually a good whack on the bridge of the nose will do it.
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ok ill source myself! had it happen to me kicked in face, two nicely closed up black eyes and an operation to re break my nose to set it, two more black eyes again after op! usually a good whack on the bridge of the nose will do it.
Sourcing yourself is no good. Sheila was bare footed so kicked no one.
The 2002 appeal does not say Neville's black eyes and broken nose were caused by the rifle butt. Only perhaps the linear marks on his body.
Are you saying a 7 stone woman reached up and gave Neville one punch so hard it broke his nose and gave him two black eyes ?
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Sourcing yourself is no good. Sheila was bare footed so kicked no one.
The 2002 appeal does not say Neville's black eyes and broken nose were caused by the rifle butt. Only perhaps the linear marks on his body.
Are you saying a 7 stone woman reached up and gave Neville one punch so hard it broke his nose and gave him two black eyes ?
If he was already slumped in a chair, she wouldn't have needed to reach up, would she.
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it could have been caused by that, or a punch infact it could of happened when he fell, why make an argument of something that YOU do not agree with or were not their to witness?
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If he was already slumped in a chair, she wouldn't have needed to reach up, would she.
No she would have to kneel down and start punching a dead man. Which wouldn't have disrupted the kitchen. That was all the raid team.
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it could have been caused by that, or a punch infact it could of happened when he fell, why make an argument of something that YOU do not agree with or were not their to witness?
So Neville got his two black eyes and broken nose when he fell ? Or an incredible punch.
Once the bruising to the wrist, arm and cheeks is resolved, the possibility of a fight has gone. After all it was the bumbling raid team who smashed and knocked over everything.
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No she would have to kneel down and start punching a dead man. Which wouldn't have disrupted the kitchen. That was all the raid team.
Why? A punch delivered from standing would deliver with more force than from a kneeling position. I said slumped which doesn't mean 'forwards'. It doesn't mean 'dead'. It possibly means exhausted.
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How do know? his head was in a coal scuttle, where are the pictures that are being held to help Jeremys cause? im not going to speculate on something i never witnessed. all im saying broken nose, black eyes same injury, not separate.
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How do know? his head was in a coal scuttle, where are the pictures that are being held to help Jeremys cause? im not going to speculate on something i never witnessed. all im saying broken nose, black eyes same injury, not separate.
How do I know. Because the crime scene photo shows it.
Have you not seen the crime scene picture of Neville ?
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No, its whitened out so i cant see it !
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=292.15
Nevilles head is over a coal scuttle. So impossible to hit his face with anything if he just slumped there and died.
The broken nose, black eyes and cheek brusing were during a kitchen fight. Sorry Lebaleb.
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Pretty poor crime scene photo for a murder investigation to be able to see, been tampered with too much.
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32:
The discovery of the bodies and the scene within the house 33. In the kitchen the police found Nevill Bamber's body slumped forward over an overturned chair next to the hearth, so that his head was just above a coal scuttle.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=292.15
Nevilles head is over a coal scuttle. So impossible to hit his face with anything if he just slumped there and died.
The broken nose, black eyes and cheek brusing were during a kitchen fight. Sorry Lebaleb.
But it would have been more than possible to hit his face when he was still upright and still alive prior to slumping/being pushed forward into the coal scuttle when he was dead.
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Pretty poor crime scene photo for a murder investigation to be able to see, been tampered with too much.
Both supporters and guilters agree Neville was found slumped with his head just above a coal scuttle.
However some supporters try to say there was no kitchen fight and Neville just collapsed upon arriving in the kitchen.
However it is impossible to hit Nevilles face in this position and give him black eyes, cheek bruisers and a broken nose. And impossible to give him arm and wrist bruises. And pointless doing it if he was lifeless and not fighting back.
So there was a massive kitchen fight with Neville getting brutally beaten. And it was not the raid team who smashed and knocked things over. It occured during the fight.
But how did Sheila remain unmarked ?
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So why is the photo in black and white and grainy, the one above looks of better quality
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So why is the photo in black and white and grainy, the one above looks of better quality
Don't ask me why it's black and white.
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All over the farmhouse-----------------blood.
What became of the blood-soaked footwear that SJ took away,telling AE " she didn't see them ?"
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So why is the photo in black and white and grainy, the one above looks of better quality
Zoe, they're probably reprints of reprints.
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How do you know that a scuffle didn't happen in the bedroom/landing as he tried to disarm her, she never had issues with her father, only her mother and her kids, whatever, he had a window of opportunity to make calls, before she came down stairs after shooting the others
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All over the farmhouse-----------------blood.
What became of the blood-soaked footwear that SJ took away,telling AE " she didn't see them ?"
If they were taken from Sheila's bedroom, why would they be blood soaked?
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but all the other photos are not in black and white and theres a lot of blood in them also.
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How do you know that a scuffle didn't happen in the bedroom/landing as he tried to disarm her, she never had issues with her father, only her mother and her kids, whatever, he had a window of opportunity to make calls, before she came down stairs after shooting the others
The crime scene evidence shows it occurred in the kitchen. The scratched aga paint, smashed ceiling lights and crockery and upturned stools. And Neville died there.
Anyway, pleased you agree there was a huge fight. Some supporters deny one took place. Sheila chose to brutally beat Neville to negate the threat, and didn't get a mark on her.
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Zoe,I think Neville had given up supporting his daughter as because up to the murders June had been seeing her GP for quite some time ( JB had said 6 months,according to his statement ) so Neville's full attention and support was naturally going to be for his wife on this occasion.
I think Neville had been patient enough what with answering Sheila's calls,often in the early hours telling him that she was lonely,or couldn't sleep or both.
It must have been very draining for him at times,then latterly dealing with a sick wife as well. So when the tables turned that her father wasn't having the same interest in her,there'd have been fireworks towards him anyway.
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but all the other photos are not in black and white and theres a lot of blood in them also.
At a guess, they've been enhanced.
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If they were taken from Sheila's bedroom, why would they be blood soaked?
Why would they have been taken otherwise ? For him to wear ?
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Not easy sadly, a friends son got diagnosed with this illness, gave up her whole lifes plans, nearly wrecked her marriage, their lives changed in a whole new direction, smashing lady, horrible when he had episodes thinking everything was bugged people were following him. sad
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enhanced? they've buggered them beyond recognition!!
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My friend's daughter has been in a psychiatric hospital since the beginning of June,and she thought she was being bugged by the CIA. Now it's turned to delusions and she has been violent towards the staff and is now making threats to various people. She's pretty ill,but will no doubt be released " into the community " because of it being a " mild " illness. ::)
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Why would they have been taken otherwise ? For him to wear ?
I have no idea, but somehow I don't see them as squelching with blood when they were removed.
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part and parcel of the illness Sheila was a very disturbed young lady, plus the reduction of her drugs would have been disastrous! she was heading for an episode as stopped taking care of herself and lacked interest in her wee boys, good friend of mine we used to workout with just stabbbed his Mum, she nearly lost her life, but thankfully pulled through, his drugs were altered weeks before, just not like him, saw him leading up to the event could see he was a little more agitated than usual, but never thought he would do such a thing, religion is a big factor in both lives also!
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part and parcel of the illness Sheila was a very disturbed young lady, plus the reduction of her drugs would have been disastrous! she was heading for an episode as stopped taking care of herself and lacked interest in her wee boys, good friend of mine we used to workout with just stabbbed his Mum, she nearly lost her life, but thankfully pulled through, his drugs were altered weeks before, just not like him, saw him leading up to the event could see he was a little more agitated than usual, but never thought he would do such a thing, religion is a big factor in both lives also!
I maintain she was severely depressed and therefore would have lacked the mental energy to kill herself, let alone four others.
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Thats when people DO tend to kill themselves and others! when they are mentally ill
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Thats when people DO tend to kill themselves and others! when they are mentally ill
No, Zoe. Actually,they don't. I've known depressives who can't even raise the energy to get out of bet to go to a therapy session, OR when they have, have sat, blank and silent. They haven't even been able to cry because the depression is too deep for them to feel. The danger point comes when the antidepressants they're prescribed start to kick in and their energy level is lifted.
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I have no idea, but somehow I don't see them as squelching with blood when they were removed.
.!
Because they were carried/sneaked out and not walked in.Dear me !
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i completely disagree with your statement, most people who kill are not in a good place in their lives and are mental health, drugs, jealousy, that is what a criminal barrister told me.
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i completely disagree with your statement, most people who kill are not in a good place in their lives and are mental health, drugs, jealousy, that is what a criminal barrister told me.
My facts come from working with Samaritans, counselling training and working with depressives, but it's your prerogative to take the word of a criminal barrister.
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Thats when people DO tend to kill themselves and others! when they are mentally ill
So most killers are mentally ill?
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Samaritans! personally i do not rate them as an organisation, Napac fantastic, their work is amazing! so if my sister in law hadn't have killed herself while depressed, why did she kill herself then? because she was happy? i have got my own mind, most that kill or kill others are not mentally at a good place, not all go onto kill of course not, but is is a major factor.
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So most killers are mentally ill?
Refrain from twisting my words please
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Samaritans! personally i do not rate them as an organisation, Napac fantastic, their work is amazing! so if my sister in law hadn't have killed herself while depressed, why did she kill herself then? because she was happy? i have got my own mind, most that kill or kill others are not mentally at a good place, not all go onto kill of course not, but is is a major factor.
There are lots of reasons why people kill, but for Jeremy, it was just a means to an end.
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Refrain from twisting my words please
Twisting your words? They were my words - it was a question because that's what your post implied.
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The distinction between fantasy and reality has evidently become blurred. They have got things grossly out of proportion. Jeremy calmly justified the murders to himself as mercy killings, putting them all out of their misery. The same course of action to alleviate his torment didn't apply to him though.
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Im taking it you are an adult? you are desperately trying to get me to make a statement, that all sufferers of mental health issues kill. im not playing your games im afraid.
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i completely disagree with your statement, most people who kill are not in a good place in their lives and are mental health, drugs, jealousy, that is what a criminal barrister told me.
i totally disagree. any human being can kill and for any reason most are just like you and i .love and greed, jealousy.pervertedness .many reasons
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Samaritans! personally i do not rate them as an organisation, Napac fantastic, their work is amazing! so if my sister in law hadn't have killed herself while depressed, why did she kill herself then? because she was happy? i have got my own mind, most that kill or kill others are not mentally at a good place, not all go onto kill of course not, but is is a major factor.
Your prerogative, of course. Depression is like a trough. Depending on where people are in it will define the depths of their depression. It can fall anywhere on a scale of 1 to 10. Those who rate a 10 won't be capable of raising enough energy to kill. Those around 6-8 are in a dangerous place. Those below that are less likely to be contemplating such actions but it's not set in stone and all depressives need support. I'm sorry about your sister in law.
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My facts come from working with Samaritans, counselling training and working with depressives, but it's your prerogative to take the word of a criminal barrister.
your an angel jane.helping people in their hour of need.they have saved many lives .its the best in human beings that give their time to stop people taking their own lives :)
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i totally disagree. any human being can kill and for any reason most are just like you and i .love and greed, jealousy.pervertedness .many reasons
Yes, so if you made a spider diagram you could link all of the above to my reasons for killing
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Your prerogative, of course. Depression is like a trough. Depending on where people are in it will define the depths of their depression. It can fall anywhere on a scale of 1 to 10. Those who rate a 10 won't be capable of raising enough energy to kill. Those around 6-8 are in a dangerous place. Those below that are less likely to be contemplating such actions but it's not set in stone and all depressives need support. I'm sorry about your sister in law.
But not all people are assessed this way, something acts as their trigger at one point in time,things since the 1980s have changed so much for the better, Thanks it was 1994 so a long time ago, although my nieces are thriving and doing well, she was so beautiful.
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Im taking it you are an adult? you are desperately trying to get me to make a statement, that all sufferers of mental health issues kill. im not playing your games im afraid.
Errrr, that's NOT what I asked at all and I'm not desperately trying to get you to make any statement.
You said
Thats when people DO tend to kill themselves and others! when they are mentally ill
So I asked if you thought all killers were mentally ill and NOT if you thought all people with mental health issues were killers!
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Your prerogative, of course. Depression is like a trough. Depending on where people are in it will define the depths of their depression. It can fall anywhere on a scale of 1 to 10. Those who rate a 10 won't be capable of raising enough energy to kill. Those around 6-8 are in a dangerous place. Those below that are less likely to be contemplating such actions but it's not set in stone and all depressives need support. I'm sorry about your sister in law.
With psychotics the depression gives way to a manic phase where the person has masses of energy. They can't sleep and will pace for hours ranting about some delusion that they may feel compelled, or forced by voices, to act upon.
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With psychotics the depression gives way to a manic phase where the person has masses of energy. They can't sleep and will pace for hours ranting about some delusion that they may feel compelled, or forced by voices, to act upon.
Agreed. However, there's nothing to suggest -other than a belief in Jeremy's innocence- that Sheila suffered a psychotic episode. Saying she MAY have isn't proof that she did when there's nothing else to back it up.
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Agreed. However, there's nothing to suggest -other than a belief in Jeremy's innocence- that Sheila suffered a psychotic episode. Saying she MAY have isn't proof that she did when there's nothing else to back it up.
The lack of Rigor Mortis and the absence of Lividity in Shelia make it impossible for JB to have killed her. He was in police custody at the time of her death.
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The lack of Rigor Mortis and the absence of Lividity in Shelia make it impossible for JB to have killed her. He was in police custody at the time of her death.
You've said so, MANY times.
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The lack of Rigor Mortis and the absence of Lividity in Shelia make it impossible for JB to have killed her. He was in police custody at the time of her death.
She was n a state of lividity, that's why her face is discoloured and mottled.
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Agreed. However, there's nothing to suggest -other than a belief in Jeremy's innocence- that Sheila suffered a psychotic episode. Saying she MAY have isn't proof that she did when there's nothing else to back it up.
In CC's statement he says that Dr Furgusen told him Sheila would always have the illness at more frequent intervals. On the drive to WHF she didn't say a word. June told PB that she was worried about Sheila's behavior, taking no interest in the twins. She wasn't acting normally, she just answered yes or no and then left the phone without saying goodnight. She just sat vacantly at the kitchen table. In my experience I would say there was a high likelihood that Sheila would have a psychotic episode, all the warning signs were there. You can't say there is nothing to back it up.
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In CC's statement he says that Dr Furgusen told him Sheila would always have the illness at more frequent intervals. On the drive to WHF she didn't say a word. June told PB that she was worried about Sheila's behavior, taking no interest in the twins. She wasn't acting normally, she just answered yes or no and then left the phone without saying goodnight. She just sat vacantly at the kitchen table. In my experience I would say there was a high likelihood that Sheila would have a psychotic episode, all the warning signs were there. You can't say there is nothing to back it up.
She was acting withdrawn not in the throws of psychosis. She was taking anti psychotic medication, it was found in her system.
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She was n a state of lividity, that's why her face is discoloured and mottled.
It's the poor quality of the pic.that gives that impression.
Saying that,if discolouration was evident,it would still only indicate that her death was no more than a couple of hours before she was found,as LM begins within 2 hours,and the more active prior to death the quicker the onset.
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It's the poor quality of the pic.that gives that impression.
Saying that,if discolouration was evident,it would still only indicate that her death was no more than a couple of hours before she was found,as LM begins within 2 hours,and the more active prior to death the quicker the onset.
It is NOT the poor quality of the picture at all. The pictures of Sheila is of a MUCH higher quality than the one of June which has a high red content. The discolouration on her face and mottled effect is consistent with lividity, however, the picture of June is less clear because of the blood all over her legs, the quality of the picture and the high red content. It doesn't prove that June was in a more pronounced state of lividity than Sheila but that won't stop a certain quarter making the suggestion.
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It is NOT the poor quality of the picture at all. The pictures of Sheila is of a MUCH higher quality than the one of June which has a high red content. The discolouration on her face and mottled effect is consistent with lividity, however, the picture of June is less clear because of the blood all over her legs, the quality of the picture and the high red content. It doesn't prove that June was in a more pronounced state of lividity than Sheila but that won't stop a certain quarter making the suggestion.
As I'd said,lividity begins appx 2 hours after death,so work backwards with the time.
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Discolouration would have been severely pronounced had it been 4 hours and beyond.
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Even June hadn't looked particularly discoloured as though she'd been dead for hours. I'd imagine that if the three adults had been heavily discoloured,the doctor would then have estimated the times of death as it would then have been quite clear to him of the " stages ".
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Speaking of pictures why wasn't Andrew Hunter allowed to use the "full picture"? http://www.essexchronicle.co.uk/spots-blood-proof-jeremy-bamber-s-innocence/story-19941411-detail/story.html
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As I'd said,lividity begins appx 2 hours after death,so work backwards with the time.
Why? I'm not going to pretend I know enough about working out the time of death from a picture. No one here is anywhere near qualified to make such bold statements. The fact is there is evidence of lividity on Sheila but from the picture of June, it is difficult to work out how much (if any), the marks on her legs are down to lividiy.
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Speaking of pictures why wasn't Andrew Hunter allowed to use the "full picture"? http://www.essexchronicle.co.uk/spots-blood-proof-jeremy-bamber-s-innocence/story-19941411-detail/story.html
Why indeed and where did it originate?
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Why indeed and where did it originate?
I thought it might be something to do with the rumour that it showed her private parts. I'm having difficulty noticing the development of lividity I must say. No wonder Dr. Craig didn't give a time of death.
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In CC's statement he says that Dr Furgusen told him Sheila would always have the illness at more frequent intervals. On the drive to WHF she didn't say a word. June told PB that she was worried about Sheila's behavior, taking no interest in the twins. She wasn't acting normally, she just answered yes or no and then left the phone without saying goodnight. She just sat vacantly at the kitchen table. In my experience I would say there was a high likelihood that Sheila would have a psychotic episode, all the warning signs were there. You can't say there is nothing to back it up.
And I would say she was in the depths of depression. There IS evidence to back that up.
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There wouldn't have been any visible lividity under 2 hours. Which is why the doctor didn't give a time of death,but all the more reason why he should have. I can't understand that at all,because that in itself would have immediately excluded Jeremy from the murders.
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It was quite normal behaviour for Sheila. Therein lay the tragedy.
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There wouldn't have been any visible lividity under 2 hours. Which is why the doctor didn't give a time of death,but all the more reason why he should have. I can't understand that at all,because that in itself would have immediately excluded Jeremy from the murders.
well from the above statement ,it seems youve done his job just by looking at a photo you have told us there wouldnt have been visable lividity under 2 hours.but did the doctor comfirm what your saying after all he was at the scene and not studying a photo.
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well from the above statement ,it seems youve done his job just by looking at a photo you have told us there wouldnt have been visable lividity under 2 hours.but did the doctor comfirm what your saying after all he was at the scene and not studying a photo.
The doctor neither did anything nor said anything about times of death,which even in a police doctors language could have just said that they'd been dead a long time,but obviously the indicatons of that weren't there.
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The doctor neither did anything nor said anything about times of death,which even in a police doctors language could have just said that they'd been dead a long time,but obviously the indicatons of that weren't there.
oh i see.i do agree thats not good enough in a case with 5 dead bodies .the doctor should have given an estimate of the time of death
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She was n a state of lividity, that's why her face is discoloured and mottled.
Lividity will only effect the face if one is face down.
She looks rather pale here two. Very much alive also ;D
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYCNtTpWsAA7VsY.jpg)
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Lividity will only effect the face if one is face down.
She looks rather pale here two. Very much alive also ;D
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYCNtTpWsAA7VsY.jpg)
Going by her eyes, VERY made up, too.
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In CC's statement he says that Dr Furgusen told him Sheila would always have the illness at more frequent intervals. On the drive to WHF she didn't say a word. June told PB that she was worried about Sheila's behavior, taking no interest in the twins. She wasn't acting normally, she just answered yes or no and then left the phone without saying goodnight. She just sat vacantly at the kitchen table. In my experience I would say there was a high likelihood that Sheila would have a psychotic episode, all the warning signs were there. You can't say there is nothing to back it up.
i agree with that lebaleb, i think there is a lot to back up why shiela would have or could have had a psychotic episode.
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She reminds me of Georgina in London Weekend Television's Upstairs Downstairs.
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Dates put on Sheila's photo's would have helped in comparing then and now plus it would show various stages of her illness and the changes which occur, because I don't know if it's the makeup but in some pics she looks so different. No two pics are alike.
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i agree with that lebaleb, i think there is a lot to back up why shiela would have or could have had a psychotic episode.
if she ever used violence against somebody i would agree.but she has no record of that
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Neither do a lot of depressives--------on the outside. Violence usually happens behind closed doors.
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Neither do a lot of depressives--------on the outside. Violence usually happens behind closed doors.
would she not tell her doctor if she was having urges to kill. i very much think so
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i agree with that lebaleb, i think there is a lot to back up why shiela would have or could have had a psychotic episode.
The trouble is, you can't explain how she could have committed the massacre.
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Lividity will only effect the face if one is face down.
She looks rather pale here two. Very much alive also ;D
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYCNtTpWsAA7VsY.jpg)
Did you bother to read the article I posted? As the blood settles to the lower part of the body, the skin becomes 'mottled' and that's what is evident on Sheila's face. You can see it, I'm not making it up! The blood on her face is dried and cracked not flowing as some would try to suggest!
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It's a grainy picture. A thin line of blood will eventually crack-------that's nothing new as it has the same effect on a live person too. It's not her neck though,is it ?
The thicker volumes of blood from her neck would have flowed soon after death until settling to its own level to form LM in the lowest area once the heart had stopped beating.
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It's a grainy picture. A thin line of blood will eventually crack-------that's nothing new as it has the same effect on a live person too.
You can keep denying it if you like, the evidence is there. It looks grainy because I have enlarged it, it's certainly less grainy than the one posted of June, who's legs were covered in blood anyway.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39391)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=7296)
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You can keep denying it if you like, the evidence is there. It looks grainy because I have enlarged it, it's certainly less grainy than the one posted of June, who's legs were covered in blood anyway.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39391)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=7296)
Even June's legs didn't show signs of LM,even allowing for the amount of blood.
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Again the side of her face could be light blood smudges, the photos like the others have been tampered with to distort your perceptions. its interesting that normal photos with nothing of interest are of such high quality, you see to me, the dead people ive had the pleasure to see and be around have a very different colour in general than to the colour of Sheila in these pictures.
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Again the side of her face could be light blood smudges, the photos like the others have been tampered with to distort your perceptions. its interesting that normal photos with nothing of interest are of such high quality, you see to me, the dead people ive had the pleasure to see and be around have a very different colour in general than to the colour of Sheila in these pictures.
How has this picture been tampered with?
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Did you bother to read the article I posted? As the blood settles to the lower part of the body, the skin becomes 'mottled' and that's what is evident on Sheila's face. You can see it, I'm not making it up! The blood on her face is dried and cracked not flowing as some would try to suggest!
Blood dries over time. How quickly this happens depends on the surface on which the blood landed, how much blood the spatter contains, and the heat and humidity at the crime scene, but as a rule the outer edges of the stain dry first. Consequently, after the interior portion flakes off or is smeared by an object, a dry blood spatter can skeletonize, that is, leave behind a ring similar in appearance (if not color) to a water ring on a coffee table [source: James et al.]. Patterns of drying help analysts determine how long an assault went on, detect whether it took place all at once or in stages, and nail down possible crime scene contamination [source: Wonder]. Clotting patterns in blood provide similar information and can help nail down the time factor if analysts arrive at the scene before blood can dry. Clotting begins within 3 to 15 minutes, but actual times vary by amount, surface type and environment. Mixed levels of clotting can indicate that multiple blows or gunshots occurred over time [sources: Dutelle, bloodstain pattern evidence. Anita Y. Wonder].
WHAT WOULD BE A REASONABLE
DRYING TIME FOR FLOWS?
Because the drying time of the flows may have
been viewed as important, an exhibit was
made to illustrate timing for flows to leave
faint traces after being wiped. A reasonable
facsimile was approximated for the humidity
and temperature of the stream area where the
vehicle travel terminated. The stream area
was cooler and probably a little more humid
than the test area for the flows. The conclusion
would therefore be that drying would
be within that time or longer. Exact times
for the experiment are purposely not given.
When a court exhibit is necessary to demonstrate
drying times, the experimentation
should be conducted using the parameters of
the specific case. In this situation the result of
TIMING IS EVERYTHING 59
the exercise was that five minutes was insufficient for the degree of drying noted
in the photographs of the victim's face. The exhibit confirmed that the blood
flows occurred, were wiped, and dried over a time period in excess of that available
between the alleged traffic accident and the arrival of the volunteer fireman.
No transfer material to wipe the flows was found in the car.
Conditions of the reconstruction were that fresh human blood, hematocrit
47 percent, was drawn by syringe venipuncture without anticoagulant. Runs
were immediately applied to the reverse side of pigskin suede, which is a
reasonable facsimile to human skin, tilted at 35 degrees, at a temperature of 68° E
At one, two, three, four, and five minutes,
respectively, a latex gloved finger was passed
over the stain. At remaining times a facial
tissue was rubbed through the stain. For
light touching, five minutes was sufficient
drying time but for wiping of the stains,
up to 20 minutes was required under the
conditions of this experiment. After six
and a half minutes the whole sheet was
tilted at 90 ° to see if the flows could change
directions that late
The thin stream of blood running down Sheila's mouth has coagulated while the thicker stream on her neck is not fully coagulated. You can tell by appearance, The outer edges of the blood are more coagulated than the centre.
A study published in the International Journal of Legal Medicine reported that a blood drop on a hard surface in a typical indoor setting at 20 degrees Celsius is completely dry in 60 minutes. Increasing the temperature to 24 degrees Celsius reduces the drying time to only 30 minutes
One thin stream of dry blood is perfectly consistent with absence of lividity showing Sheila died just over two hours before these photos were taken.
Sheila was responsible. No matter how many poppies Jeremy was picking outside
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Blood dries over time. How quickly this happens depends on the surface on which the blood landed, how much blood the spatter contains, and the heat and humidity at the crime scene, but as a rule the outer edges of the stain dry first. Consequently, after the interior portion flakes off or is smeared by an object, a dry blood spatter can skeletonize, that is, leave behind a ring similar in appearance (if not color) to a water ring on a coffee table [source: James et al.]. Patterns of drying help analysts determine how long an assault went on, detect whether it took place all at once or in stages, and nail down possible crime scene contamination [source: Wonder]. Clotting patterns in blood provide similar information and can help nail down the time factor if analysts arrive at the scene before blood can dry. Clotting begins within 3 to 15 minutes, but actual times vary by amount, surface type and environment. Mixed levels of clotting can indicate that multiple blows or gunshots occurred over time [sources: Dutelle, bloodstain pattern evidence. Anita Y. Wonder].
WHAT WOULD BE A REASONABLE
DRYING TIME FOR FLOWS?
Because the drying time of the flows may have
been viewed as important, an exhibit was
made to illustrate timing for flows to leave
faint traces after being wiped. A reasonable
facsimile was approximated for the humidity
and temperature of the stream area where the
vehicle travel terminated. The stream area
was cooler and probably a little more humid
than the test area for the flows. The conclusion
would therefore be that drying would
be within that time or longer. Exact times
for the experiment are purposely not given.
When a court exhibit is necessary to demonstrate
drying times, the experimentation
should be conducted using the parameters of
the specific case. In this situation the result of
TIMING IS EVERYTHING 59
the exercise was that five minutes was insufficient for the degree of drying noted
in the photographs of the victim's face. The exhibit confirmed that the blood
flows occurred, were wiped, and dried over a time period in excess of that available
between the alleged traffic accident and the arrival of the volunteer fireman.
No transfer material to wipe the flows was found in the car.
Conditions of the reconstruction were that fresh human blood, hematocrit
47 percent, was drawn by syringe venipuncture without anticoagulant. Runs
were immediately applied to the reverse side of pigskin suede, which is a
reasonable facsimile to human skin, tilted at 35 degrees, at a temperature of 68° E
At one, two, three, four, and five minutes,
respectively, a latex gloved finger was passed
over the stain. At remaining times a facial
tissue was rubbed through the stain. For
light touching, five minutes was sufficient
drying time but for wiping of the stains,
up to 20 minutes was required under the
conditions of this experiment. After six
and a half minutes the whole sheet was
tilted at 90 ° to see if the flows could change
directions that late
The thin stream of blood running down Sheila's mouth has coagulated while the thicker stream on her neck is not fully coagulated. You can tell by appearance, The outer edges of the blood are more coagulated than the centre.
A study published in the International Journal of Legal Medicine reported that a blood drop on a hard surface in a typical indoor setting at 20 degrees Celsius is completely dry in 60 minutes. Increasing the temperature to 24 degrees Celsius reduces the drying time to only 30 minutes
One thin stream of dry blood is perfectly consistent with absence of lividity showing Sheila died just over two hours before these photos were taken.
Sheila was responsible. No matter how many poppies Jeremy was picking outside
Toss!
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only in your mind david .
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How can LM be in her face when liquid finds the lowest level which was her back if she was found face up ? LM on the side of the face would have indicated that she had been lying in that position from death,which she wasn't.
LM is when the blood drains to the lowest point ( back ),thus drawing it from her face to leave it a pale colour which remains like that.
A two hour process.
If Dr Craig had depressed a thumb/finger in her arm he'd have also had an idea of time of death.
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Toss!
Of course it is Caroline ::)
Lets ignore forensic science and embrace your brilliant intuition ;D
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How can LM be in her face when liquid finds the lowest level which was her back if she was found face up ? LM on the side of the face would have indicated that she had been lying in that position from death,which she wasn't.
LM is when the blood drains to the lowest point ( back ),thus drawing it from her face to leave it a pale colour which remains like that.
A two hour process.
If Dr Craig had depressed a thumb/finger in her arm he'd have also had an idea of time of death.
How does the blood get to the lower levels Lookout?
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Of course it is Caroline ::)
Lets ignore forensic science and embrace your brilliant intuition ;D
Forensic science? Like Sheila extracting 'purge' a few hours after death? get back to your bedroom lab David and play nice! ::)
You should get yourself on of these!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/161993750477?lpid=122&chn=ps&googleloc=9046707&poi=&campaignid=628893806&device=c&adgroupid=28312585266&rlsatarget=pla-184497820626&adtype=pla&crdt=0
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ausAAOSwQYZW1ZqA/$_35.JPG?set_id=880000500F)
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With regard to #151 I have read that lividity starts on the face, neck arms and shoulders first. Isn't that lividity above and below the eyes which I first thought was make-up or light bruising?
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How does the blood get to the lower levels Lookout?
It literally settles/stagnates and is drawn to those areas which are in contact with the floor/ground ( back,bottom and backs of legs ) if they're lying in their back because there's no circulation to give colour to the upper part of the body,thus leaving the face pale. Settling to the lowest point which creates the LM.
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With regard to #151 I have read that lividity starts on the face, neck arms and shoulders first. Isn't that lividity above and below the eyes which I first thought was make-up or light bruising?
Yes it is Steve, the blood settles at the lowest part of the body, but it has to get there first. The mottling is the blood moving to the lowest level and it discoloured because the blood isn't oxygenated.
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With regard to #151 I have read that lividity starts on the face, neck arms and shoulders first. Isn't that lividity above and below the eyes which I first thought was make-up or light bruising?
The face remains pale Steve.
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When a patient dies on a ward,the body is collected roughly an hour maybe longer,in order for relatives to say their goodbyes. There is never LM.
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The face remains pale Steve.
So it magically turns pale dose it? The blood has to drain to the lower part of the body, it doesn't just drop!
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So it magically turns pale dose it? The blood has to drain to the lower part of the body, it doesn't just drop!
Yes and the process completes in around 6 hours
The photos show an obvious state of lividity in June but its only just beginning in Sheila. Meaning she could only have died around two hours after the photos were taken. Had she died 7 hours ago the Lividity will be apparent and fixed like that of June. But its not.
(http://image.slidesharecdn.com/pmi-140425060727-phpapp01/95/post-mortem-interval-7-638.jpg?cb=1398406233)
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Yes and the process completes in around 6 hours
The photos show an obvious state of lividity in June but its only just beginning in Sheila. Meaning she could only have died around two hours after the photos were taken. Had she died 7 hours ago the Lividity will be apparent and fixed like that of June. But its not.
(http://image.slidesharecdn.com/pmi-140425060727-phpapp01/95/post-mortem-interval-7-638.jpg?cb=1398406233)
No they don't! ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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So it magically turns pale dose it? The blood has to drain to the lower part of the body, it doesn't just drop!
I should know with having worked at the hospital. No magic about it,it's the process of death.
Sad to say but I've lost count how many I've seen.
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I should know with having worked at the hospital. No magic about it,it's the process of death.
Sad to say but I've lost count how many I've seen.
So someone's face is pink and in the last breath it turns white?
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So someone's face is pink and in the last breath it turns white?
Pink ? I think not. Those in the throes of death are white,some having a mask-like or waxy appearance.
The blood drains from their face because of lack of circulation and as the breathing gets more shallow there's less and less oxygen so cells start to die off. Their pallor is evident beyond about an hour and a half to two hours.
Cell breakdown is immediate after death.
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Pink ? I think not. Those in the throes of death are white,some having a mask-like or waxy appearance.
The blood drains from their face because of lack of circulation and as the breathing gets more shallow there's less and less oxygen so cells start to die off. Their pallor is evident beyond about an hour and a half to two hours.
Cell breakdown is immediate after death.
If someone has been shot and were fit and healthy before death, their face would be pink upon death. Therefore the blood has to 'drain' from their face, it's not immediate.
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No they don't! ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
So your saying June died when Jeremy was outside with the police also? The mystery thickens :o ::)
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So your saying June died when Jeremy was outside with the police also? The mystery thickens :o ::)
No, I'm saying those pictures you posted don't prove your point.
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David, Livor Mortis is usually at it's maximum in 6.12 hours. Sheila without a doubt has livor mortis on her left shoulder....as shown in the photos of her on this site. Having been moved from on her front shortly after death livor mortis would have been distributed to other parts of her body ie. her back which we cannot see, also the underneath of her legs where livor mortis settled.
Regarding Rigor Mortis, It's perfectly natural that Sheila's whole body wasn't set by the time the Police moved her arm.
Rigor Stage.... normally lasts 8.12. hours after which time the body is completely stiff.
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Closing argument used by Vincent Bugliosi in the double murder trial of Alan Palliko and Sandra Stockton in 1967. There wasn't a single piece of forensic evidence in that case - not even a dodgy silencer! This is the man who prosecuted Charles Manson also - he's no fool.
“I think that counsels’ problem is that they misconceive what circumstantial evidence is all about. Circumstantial evidence is not, as they claim, like a chain. You could have a chain spanning the Atlantic Ocean from Nova Scotia to Bordeaux, France, consisting of millions of links, and with one weak link that chain is broken.
“Circumstantial evidence to the contrary, is like a rope. And each fact is a strand of that rope. And as the prosecution piles one fact upon another we add strands and we add strength to that rope. If one strand breaks – and I’m not conceding for one moment that any strand has broken in this case – but if one strand does break, the rope is not broken. The strength of the rope is barely diminished. Why? Because there are so many other strands of almost steel-like strength that the rope is still more than strong enough to bind these two defendants to justice. That’s what circumstantial evidence is all about.”
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Closing argument used by Vincent Bugliosi in the double murder trial of Alan Palliko and Sandra Stockton in 1967. There wasn't a single piece of forensic evidence in that case - not even a dodgy silencer! This is the man who prosecuted Charles Manson also - he's no fool.
“I think that counsels’ problem is that they misconceive what circumstantial evidence is all about. Circumstantial evidence is not, as they claim, like a chain. You could have a chain spanning the Atlantic Ocean from Nova Scotia to Bordeaux, France, consisting of millions of links, and with one weak link that chain is broken.
“Circumstantial evidence to the contrary, is like a rope. And each fact is a strand of that rope. And as the prosecution piles one fact upon another we add strands and we add strength to that rope. If one strand breaks – and I’m not conceding for one moment that any strand has broken in this case – but if one strand does break, the rope is not broken. The strength of the rope is barely diminished. Why? Because there are so many other strands of almost steel-like strength that the rope is still more than strong enough to bind these two defendants to justice. That’s what circumstantial evidence is all about.”
Yes I have read this before, its well known. This does not apply to Jeremy's situation at all. There is no rope at all, Just a spiders web of lies. That is why you never bothered to post "the massive list" because its too embarrassing and you know it wont stand up to scrutiny. ;D
Not only that but the times of death between June and Sheila cuts any circumstantial rope totally in half, no matter how thick it is.
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Yes I have read this before, its well known. This does not apply to Jeremy's situation at all. There is no rope at all, Just a spiders web of lies. That is why you never bothered to post "the massive list" because its too embarrassing and you know it wont stand up to scrutiny. ;D
There's a huge list why Jeremy is guilty. He was frustrated with a life where the standard of living he required was always out of reach, where he was expected to graft on the Farm when as he perceived it Sheila was living it up in Moreshead Mansions with nothing to do all day save lie in bed. He caught wind of the seriousness of her illness probably from Barbara Wilson, who may have told him his sister's thoughts that "all people are bad and should be killed." Rather than expressing sympathy as most family members would have done he conceived a plan, dictated at various stages those preceding six months to Julie.
In a sense we know the outline of that plan, which according to Jeremy post-event was the "perfect crime". This tells us that things did run smoothly, the first time he was truly in control after an early years experiencing nothing but alienation on the Farm, eight years at Gresham's as an automaton, further ordering around at Sloppy Joe's and Little Chef, the foreign trips where his parents ultimately controlled the purse strings and back to farming, to which he was tied by the terms of his father's will until he died.
It's important to understand that he had followed orders all his life and was never in a position to give them. It's why I exonerate Julie to some extent because taking orders was anathema and he vowed things would be different with his parents out of the way. Sheila would be set up as patsy, but she and the twins were a mere appendage: the main goal was the liquidation of his parents as retribution for the way he perceived he had been treated all those years: abandoned at birth, neglected at home due to June's illness and her inability to empathize, packed off to Gresham's for eight years, where every school holiday the estrangement became ever more severe, until finally he admitted to Julie "they have forfeited the right to live the way they have treated me."
As his confabulation became ever more vehement and Sheila's illness became all the more severe his resolution became stronger, strangling rats with his bare hands as the family folie a trois spread, the murder plans now seemingly a part of his daily routine as he sat inside the cannabis haze of the tractor and pondered his future. With the lightning strike on the Farm and Nevill's non-functioning mobile telephone coinciding with Sheila's visit it really was "now or never" as he told Julie, the chemical excitants exercising far more wayward control of his brain than his parents ever did in life.
And there we have it. No telephone call from Nevill because Jeremy was the ineffectual nonentity who went through the motions, who wouldn't use the crop sprayer, who wouldn't wear a shirt and tie at his father's request and who was only in the rank he occupied due to an accident of birth. Nevill couldn't conceal his disappointment at how his son had turned out and Jeremy felt it, though by now the time for self-recrimination had long since passed. No use of a gun by his gullible schizophrenic sister, a recovering anorexic suffering from Tardive Dyskinesia, whose coordination issues precluded her from driving, from pouring a drink without using two hands to steady the glass and who was thoroughly dependent on her rich parents the same way Jeremy was, though a gulf in colloquy existed between the two. It's why Jeremy can't bear the sight or sound of religion as he looks back in retrospect at the perceived damage it inflicted on mother and sister, why there is no sentiment of Christian repentance and why he hangs onto some feeling of superiority as in his own mind he emerged unscathed from that folie a trois and reverts to obeying orders from his prison cell where a sense of normalcy once again pervades.
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There's a huge list why Jeremy is guilty. He was frustrated with a life where the standard of living he required was always out of reach, where he was expected to graft on the Farm when as he perceived it Sheila was living it up in Moreshead Mansions with nothing to do all day save lie in bed. He caught wind of the seriousness of her illness probably from Barbara Wilson, who may have told him his sister's thoughts that "all people are bad and should be killed." Rather than expressing sympathy as most family members would have done he conceived a plan, dictated at various stages those preceding six months to Julie.
In a sense we know the outline of that plan, which according to Jeremy post-event was the "perfect crime". This tells us that things did run smoothly, the first time he was truly in control after an early years experiencing nothing but alienation on the Farm, eight years at Gresham's as an automaton, further ordering around at Sloppy Joe's and Little Chef, the foreign trips where his parents ultimately controlled the purse strings and back to farming, to which he was tied by the terms of his father's will until he died.
It's important to understand that he had followed orders all his life and was never in a position to give them. It's why I exonerate Julie to some extent because taking orders was anathema and he vowed things would be different with his parents out of the way. Sheila would be set up as patsy, but she and the twins were a mere appendage: the main goal was the liquidation of his parents as retribution for the way he perceived he had been treated all those years: abandoned at birth, neglected at home due to June's illness and her inability to empathize, packed off to Gresham's for eight years, where every school holiday the estrangement became ever more severe, until finally he admitted to Julie "they have forfeited the right to live the way they have treated me."
As his confabulation became ever more vehement and Sheila's illness became all the more severe his resolution became stronger, strangling rats with his bare hands as the family folie a trois spread, the murder plans now seemingly a part of his daily routine as he sat inside the cannabis haze of the tractor and pondered his future. With the lightning strike on the Farm and Nevill's non-functioning mobile telephone coinciding with Sheila's visit it really was "now or never" as he told Julie, the chemical excitants exercising far more wayward control of his brain than his parents ever did in life.
And there we have it. No telephone call from Nevill because Jeremy was the ineffectual nonentity who went through the motions, who wouldn't use the crop sprayer, who wouldn't wear a shirt and tie at his father's request and who was only in the rank he occupied due to an accident of birth. Nevill couldn't conceal his disappointment at how his son had turned out and Jeremy felt it, though by now the time for self-recrimination had long since passed. No use of a gun by his gullible schizophrenic sister, a recovering anorexic suffering from Tardive Dyskinesia, whose coordination issues precluded her from driving, from pouring a drink without using two hands to steady the glass and who was thoroughly dependent on her rich parents the same way Jeremy was, though a gulf in colloquy existed between the two. It's why Jeremy can't bear the sight or sound of religion as he looks back in retrospect at the perceived damage it inflicted on mother and sister, why there is no sentiment of Christian repentance and why he hangs onto some feeling of superiority as in his own mind he emerged unscathed from that folie a trois and reverts to obeying orders from his prison cell where a sense of normalcy once again pervades.
There is a significant reason why he is not guilty.
There is no fully developed post-mortem hypostasis (Lividity) in Sheila's body. Lividity starts to become visible in 2 hours and completes in around 6 hours. These photos were taken when Jeremy was in police custody for over 7 hours. For Jeremy to be guilty, post-mortem hypostasis (Lividity) has to be fully apparent in Sheila as it is June. The fact Lividity is only just barely starting in Sheila shows she died around two hours after these photos were taken. Roughly the exact same time the police broke the door down. Sheila killed herself as the police began breaking down the kitchen door. This made her realise she had no other option but to take her own life.
It does not matter what happened at Jeremy's school, What he allegedly thought of his parents, What mood he was in one particular day at Little Chef, where he went on holiday's or how he liked his eggs on toast. Its IMPOSSIBLE for him to have killed Sheila
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"Tardive dyslexia is a difficult-to-treat and often incurable form of dyskinesia, a disorder resulting in involuntary, repetitive body movements. In this form of dyskinesia, the involuntary movements are tardive, meaning they have a slow or belated onset.
In some cases, an individual's legs can be so affected that walking becomes difficult or impossible."
This seems to match AE saying Sheila could not put sugar into coffee. And Sheila's best friend saying Sheils found it difficult getting off sofas.
Steve do you have a source that Sheila sufferred from Tardrive dyslexia ?
I already have a source that she was a recovering anorexic.
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Pink ? I think not. Those in the throes of death are white,some having a mask-like or waxy appearance.
The blood drains from their face because of lack of circulation and as the breathing gets more shallow there's less and less oxygen so cells start to die off. Their pallor is evident beyond about an hour and a half to two hours.
Cell breakdown is immediate after death.
Sheila was shot twice, her body would have been extremely traumatised by the first shot. In such a situation the body shuts down all non essential organs as blood drains from such areas and is redirected to protect the organs essential for life such as heart, liver, kidneys. I would think she would already have had extreme pallor because of such trauma before the second shot. I also think this is a reason why Sheila would be unable to function to any degree after the first shot, not because of pain because it's unlikely she would have felt it initially but because of the lack of blood i.e.. oxygen to her brain would have caused her to faint if she had attempted to raise her head or stand.
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"Tardive dyslexia is a difficult-to-treat and often incurable form of dyskinesia, a disorder resulting in involuntary, repetitive body movements. In this form of dyskinesia, the involuntary movements are tardive, meaning they have a slow or belated onset.
In some cases, an individual's legs can be so affected that walking becomes difficult or impossible."
This seems to match AE saying Sheila could not put sugar into coffee. And Sheila's best friend saying Sheils found it difficult getting off sofas.
Steve do you have a source that Sheila sufferred from Tardrive dyslexia ?
I already have a source that she was a recovering anorexic.
Sorry but I am not convinced that Sheila suffered from Tardive Dyskensia but rather she suffered from tremor. Dyskensia particularly affects the face causing facial involuntary movements which are repetitive and akin to gurning. Much comment has been made about Sheila's facial beauty and never a mention of such facial movements. Antipsychotic drugs can cause tremor and its possible Stelazine was the culprit and why it was discontinued and Haloperidol was prescribed in its place. We don't know whether a change of drug stopped the tremors because we only have Ann Eaton's 'beans on toast' statement that she had such problems.
We do know Sheila wore makeup and apparently smoked roll ups so she must have had a fair degree of control in her hands. :-\
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Yes I have read this before, its well known. This does not apply to Jeremy's situation at all. There is no rope at all, Just a spiders web of lies. That is why you never bothered to post "the massive list" because its too embarrassing and you know it wont stand up to scrutiny. ;D
Not only that but the times of death between June and Sheila cuts any circumstantial rope totally in half, no matter how thick it is.
Times of death? Don't make me laugh! Are you suggesting that David had succeeded where all other have failed and have worked out the time of death by some grainy old picture posted on the internet? OMG! You really have lost the plot! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I didn't post the list because you refused to make the same for Sheila.
The rope stands firm!
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You can bet your life that appx times of death are listed somewhere. It would be unthinkable not to when such a huge case emerged.
It's been a sticking point with me from day one as it's the first thing which is recorded/reported in any death and if I'd been the relatives I'd have kicked off about it. This is why I say that the time of death is written down somewhere.
As I've said before,one of the first questions we were asked on the ward,by relatives was what time of death,particularly if the deceased had been seen to have been " well " the day before.
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You can bet your life that appx times of death are listed somewhere. It would be unthinkable not to when such a huge case emerged.
It's been a sticking point with me from day one as it's the first thing which is recorded/reported in any death and if I'd been the relatives I'd have kicked off about it. This is why I say that the time of death is written down somewhere.
As I've said before,one of the first questions we were asked on the ward,by relatives was what time of death,particularly if the deceased had been seen to have been " well " the day before.
They may well be Lookout, but David hasn't discovered anything. ;D ;D ;D
This reminded me of David ..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6zWjUhfj-M ;D ;D ;D
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I used to love Monty Python. That and Black Adder.
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I didn't post the list because you refused to make the same for Sheila.
No Caroline, you didn't post "The Massive List" because it does not exist and you know it. You simply mentioned its existence, but it was nothing but a hollow confidence trick.
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No Caroline, you didn't post "The Massive List" because it does not exist and you know it. You simply mentioned its existence, but it was nothing but a hollow confidence trick.
I do wish you'd massage your ego in private. We don't all wish to be participants.
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No Caroline, you didn't post "The Massive List" because it does not exist and you know it. You simply mentioned its existence, but it was nothing but a hollow confidence trick.
No David, I didn't post it because you refused to even attempt to do the same in respect to Sheila. I still have the list!
Like I said, as a detective you would make a smashing traffic warden! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pMeuOMtMEUw/Ve9vA9QsZtI/AAAAAAAALIA/MgrLwkgFphQ/s1600/Be%2BA%2BPI.gif)
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"Tardive dyslexia is a difficult-to-treat and often incurable form of dyskinesia, a disorder resulting in involuntary, repetitive body movements. In this form of dyskinesia, the involuntary movements are tardive, meaning they have a slow or belated onset.
In some cases, an individual's legs can be so affected that walking becomes difficult or impossible."
This seems to match AE saying Sheila could not put sugar into coffee. And Sheila's best friend saying Sheils found it difficult getting off sofas.
Steve do you have a source that Sheila sufferred from Tardrive dyslexia ?
I already have a source that she was a recovering anorexic.
Well Colin mentions it in his book and he was the person who knew her best, though admittedly not a doctor himself. I don't have the books in front of me but it tallies with an incident in CAL's book where Sheila was walking across the farmyard and just waded into the geese as if they weren't there.
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Sorry but I am not convinced that Sheila suffered from Tardive Dyskensia but rather she suffered from tremor. Dyskensia particularly affects the face causing facial involuntary movements which are repetitive and akin to gurning. Much comment has been made about Sheila's facial beauty and never a mention of such facial movements. Antipsychotic drugs can cause tremor and its possible Stelazine was the culprit and why it was discontinued and Haloperidol was prescribed in its place. We don't know whether a change of drug stopped the tremors because we only have Ann Eaton's 'beans on toast' statement that she had such problems.
We do know Sheila wore makeup and apparently smoked roll ups so she must have had a fair degree of control in her hands. :-\
Yes I think that's right Maggie. However we don't know how long it took her to make her toilet.
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There is a significant reason why he is not guilty.
There is no fully developed post-mortem hypostasis (Lividity) in Sheila's body. Lividity starts to become visible in 2 hours and completes in around 6 hours. These photos were taken when Jeremy was in police custody for over 7 hours. For Jeremy to be guilty, post-mortem hypostasis (Lividity) has to be fully apparent in Sheila as it is June. The fact Lividity is only just barely starting in Sheila shows she died around two hours after these photos were taken. Roughly the exact same time the police broke the door down. Sheila killed herself as the police began breaking down the kitchen door. This made her realise she had no other option but to take her own life.
It does not matter what happened at Jeremy's school, What he allegedly thought of his parents, What mood he was in one particular day at Little Chef, where he went on holiday's or how he liked his eggs on toast. Its IMPOSSIBLE for him to have killed Sheila
No it isn't IMPOSSIBLE!
One thing is for sure either Sheila didn't do anything strenuous before death, such as desperately struggling with her father as Rigor Mortis would have set in straight away, and David says it hadn't as the police moved her arm.
Physical exertion just before death: When someone dies while engaged in something strenuous, such as exercising or attempting not to drown, rigor mortis can set in at once. This instant onset is sometimes called cadaveric spasm. It happens because at the time of death, the person's muscles were out of oxygen energy and ATP.
OR.... Sheila's arm was moved by police because Rigor Mortis wasn't complete after 9 hours.
Timeline of Rigor Mortis
There are many factors to consider when examining rigor mortis in order to come to any conclusions or findings about a person's death. This is the general timeline that rigor mortis will follow under regular conditions:
0 to 8 Hours: The body starts to stiffen, but is still movable
8 to 12 Hours: Muscles become completely stiff
12 to 24 Hours: Muscles stay stiff
24 to 36 Hours: Stiffness dissipates and muscles become flexible
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It suggests to me that they weren't long dead(a matter of minutes) before he telephoned Julie to let her know just what he had achieved. If this was around 3:12am then we can work on that time to when PC Bird took the photographs of the corpses.
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Steve, JB would also have had to shower and get home. so perhaps a bit longer than a few minutes.
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No David, I didn't post it because you refused to even attempt to do the same in respect to Sheila. I still have the list!
Like I said, as a detective you would make a smashing traffic warden! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pMeuOMtMEUw/Ve9vA9QsZtI/AAAAAAAALIA/MgrLwkgFphQ/s1600/Be%2BA%2BPI.gif)
:)) :)) :))
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No it isn't IMPOSSIBLE!
One thing is for sure either Sheila didn't do anything strenuous before death, such as desperately struggling with her father as Rigor Mortis would have set in straight away, and David says it hadn't as the police moved her arm.
Physical exertion just before death: When someone dies while engaged in something strenuous, such as exercising or attempting not to drown, rigor mortis can set in at once. This instant onset is sometimes called cadaveric spasm. It happens because at the time of death, the person's muscles were out of oxygen energy and ATP.
OR.... Sheila's arm was moved by police because Rigor Mortis wasn't complete after 9 hours.
Timeline of Rigor Mortis
There are many factors to consider when examining rigor mortis in order to come to any conclusions or findings about a person's death. This is the general timeline that rigor mortis will follow under regular conditions:
0 to 8 Hours: The body starts to stiffen, but is still movable
8 to 12 Hours: Muscles become completely stiff
12 to 24 Hours: Muscles stay stiff
24 to 36 Hours: Stiffness dissipates and muscles become flexible
There is no Lividity present. Certainly not where you suggest because gravity does not force blood upwards it pulls it downwards. Your getting mixed up between livor mortis and rigour mortis
No physical altercation happened in the kitchen. The evidence was put there afterwards.
https://youtu.be/yPRd912xv9M?t=9m30s (https://youtu.be/yPRd912xv9M?t=9m30s)
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There was physical evidence of the ceiling light fitting smashed. There were so many people as we're constantly being told traipsing round the Farm it's possible the red paint debris got caught on someone's shoe before the official photographs were taken.
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It suggests to me that they weren't long dead(a matter of minutes) before he telephoned Julie to let her know just what he had achieved.
The photographs show Sheila died around the time the police knocked the kitchen door down at 7.30AM. What part of this do you not understand Steve?
If this was around 3:12am then we can work on that time to when PC Bird took the photographs of the corpses.
DI Cook arrived at WHF at 9.20AM. He is the one that moved Sheila's arm between these photos. They were taken around 7 hours after Police and Jeremy got to the farm
(http://users.skynet.be/dosscrim/jeremybamber/Sheila_Caffell_crime_scene.jpg)
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The photographs show Sheila died around the time the police knocked the kitchen door down at 7.30AM. What part of this do you not understand Steve?
DI Cook arrived at WHF at 9.20AM. He is the one that moved Sheila's arm between these photos. They were taken around 7 hours after Police and Jeremy got to the farm
(http://users.skynet.be/dosscrim/jeremybamber/Sheila_Caffell_crime_scene.jpg)
What absolute rubbish! When will you learn that your claims mean nothing - the evidence shows nothing of the sort! You can keep saying it as often as you like but it means nothing. What part of THAT do you not understand?
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Oh Dear... David even you agreed that you could just see Livor Mortis in earlier posts. I'm not confused with Livor Mortis and Rigor Mortis, this shows on Sheila's left shoulder just above the top of her nightdress. there are photo's on this site to prove this, and it's much easier to see than June's as there is so much blood on her legs. The reason that this appears on top of her shoulder is because she was turned over after her shoulder had laid on the floor....hence the blood would have settled underneath her shoulder before she was turned over and faced upwards.
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I always thought that Sheila's watch had come assunder and that part of the strap was under the bedside cabinet.
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No Lookout that was Neville's in the kitchen.
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Oh Dear... David even you agreed that you could just see Livor Mortis in earlier posts. I'm not confused with Livor Mortis and Rigor Mortis, this shows on Sheila's left shoulder just above the top of her nightdress. there are photo's on this site to prove this, and it's much easier to see than June's as there is so much blood on her legs. The reason that this appears on top of her shoulder is because she was turned over after her shoulder had laid on the floor....hence the blood would have settled underneath her shoulder before she was turned over and faced upwards.
Anyone who thinks this woman just died from this picture is just deluded.
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I always thought that Sheila's watch had come assunder and that part of the strap was under the bedside cabinet.
She was wearing her watch.
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What absolute rubbish! When will you learn that your claims mean nothing - the evidence shows nothing of the sort! You can keep saying it as often as you like but it means nothing. What part of THAT do you not understand?
The only person that sais rubbish is you.
You expect me to ignore the photographs and forensic science to just blindly follow your poor feeble minded judgement? I think not
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The photographs show Sheila died around the time the police knocked the kitchen door down at 7.30AM. What part of this do you not understand Steve?
DI Cook arrived at WHF at 9.20AM. He is the one that moved Sheila's arm between these photos. They were taken around 7 hours after Police and Jeremy got to the farm
(http://users.skynet.be/dosscrim/jeremybamber/Sheila_Caffell_crime_scene.jpg)
are the photos time stamped cause thats the only way your claim about when she died can be proved/your wasteing your time on here ,you should be working for the police as a photo expert :)) :)) :))
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Thanks for the photo Caroline....it is soo obvious in your photo that livor mortis is present.
Actually thanks also David, as your photo looks as though Sheila has livor mortis on her arms ...yes on the upper side....'cos she has been turned over after death.
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The only person that sais rubbish is you.
You expect me to ignore the photographs and forensic science to just blindly follow your poor feeble minded judgement? I think not
Forensic science? The only person making these claims is YOU and you're NOT a forensic scientist! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I don't just smell bacon from Jeremy's HAM acting, I smell bull shit from the pretend forensic lab set up in your bedroom! 8)
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Oh Dear... David even you agreed that you could just see Livor Mortis in earlier posts. I'm not confused with Livor Mortis and Rigor Mortis, this shows on Sheila's left shoulder just above the top of her nightdress. there are photo's on this site to prove this, and it's much easier to see than June's as there is so much blood on her legs. The reason that this appears on top of her shoulder is because she was turned over after her shoulder had laid on the floor....hence the blood would have settled underneath her shoulder before she was turned over and faced upwards.
yes i agree romeo and well spotted.it explains why the blood trails run where there do ;)
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Oh Dear... David even you agreed that you could just see Livor Mortis in earlier posts.
If you look very closely you can just about see it start to develop. If Sheila had died around 3am it would have been fully developed
The reason that this appears on top of her shoulder is because she was turned over after her shoulder had laid on the floor....hence the blood would have settled underneath her shoulder before she was turned over and faced upwards.
This did not happen. There are no blood stains that show this ever took place. Ive already told you this >:(
Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back.
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Taff Jones...in his notes...says there was a lot of blood on the floor near Sheila, also how is it that the blood is only on the right side of Sheila's nightdress if she wasn't lying on her right side at some point?
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Taff Jones...in his notes...says there was a lot of blood on the floor near Sheila, also how is it that the blood is only on the right side of Sheila's nightdress if she wasn't lying on her right side at some point?
Its Junes blood. She was shot several times (non fatally) got out of the bed and ran round the room and back to towards the door before collapsing. She was then shot several times later
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Its Junes blood. She was shot several times (non fatally) got out of the bed and ran round the room and back to towards the door before collapsing. She was then shot several times later
I don't know whether to laugh or cry..
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry..
I'm laughing, best laugh I have had in ages - David has become a megalomaniac;D ;D ;D ;D ;D. I'm off, I stand reading any more of this bullshit.
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry..
The blood on the carpet was tested, It was Junes blood type.
The bloodstain patterns on June's nightdress show she moved around after being shot.
The photos show a trail of blood that starts at Junes side of the bed, goes round the room to the other side of the bed, then leads back to where June's body lay.
Its not rocket science Steve
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The blood on the carpet was tested, It was Junes blood type.
The bloodstain patterns on June's nightdress show she moved around after being shot.
The photos show a trail of blood that starts at Junes side of the bed, goes round the room to the other side of the bed then leads back to where Junes body lay.
Its not rocket science, Steve
She was peppered with bullets in bed, bullets whose trajectory pierced the pillow. God knows how she felt at that point and she certainly wasn't doing any running in any direction. Jeremy couldn't know how many bullets he would need to kill humans, having heretofore practised only on the peachicks roaming the Farm, and was surprised to see her still alive when he came back up after despatching Nevill downstairs, so he gave her one last blast between the eyes within close proximity, which is how her DNA became lodged in the silencer.
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Nor me Steve!
David, which direction is the blood going from Sheila's wounds? I'll answer that for you....it's falling to the right.which means Sheila was on her right side at some point after being shot.
June did not go right around the bed! she only started to walk around this way, she wouldn't have been in the position she was found if she was coming back towards the door when shot and killed.
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Nor me Steve!
David, which direction is the blood going from Sheila's wounds? I'll answer that for you....it's falling to the right.which means Sheila was on her right side at some point after being shot.
June did not go right around the bed! she only started to walk around this way, she wouldn't have been in the position she was found if she was coming back towards the door when shot and killed.
No the blood is running down! Look at both sides of her mouth. The neck wounds only run downwards towards the right because the wounds are more the right than the left. Gravity will take the blood in the path of least resistance
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She was peppered with bullets in bed, bullets whose trajectory pierced the pillow. God knows how she felt at that point and she certainly wasn't doing any running in any direction. Jeremy couldn't know how many bullets he would need to kill humans, having heretofore practised only on the peachicks roaming the Farm, and was surprised to see her still alive when he came back up after despatching Nevill downstairs, so he gave her one last blast between the eyes within close proximity, which is how her DNA became lodged in the silencer.
So how does me manage to kill Sheila around 7AM when he is outside with police Steve?
Maybe he had David Bain hiding in his room ready to finish the job for 7.30? ::)
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So how does me manage to kill Sheila around 7AM when he is outside with police Steve?
Maybe he had David Bain hiding in his room ready to finish the job for 7.30? ::)
The call to Police from Jeremy's cottage to PC West at Chelmsford at 3:26am or 3:36am depending on your point of view(and incidentally the only call from a Bamber that morning) could have meant a time of death for his five victims at 3:00am. As has been pointed out to you from the photograph there is lividity on the shoulder and around the eye and the cracked blood has dried.
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The call to Police from Jeremy's cottage to PC West at Chelmsford at 3:26am or 3:36am depending on your point of view(and incidentally the only call from a Bamber that morning) could have meant a time of death for his five victims at 3:00am. As has been pointed out to you from the photograph there is lividity on the shoulder and around the eye and the cracked blood has dried.
The thin stream of blood down her mouth can dry in under an hour.
Blood dries over time. How quickly this happens depends on the surface on which the blood landed, how much blood the spatter contains, and the heat and humidity at the crime scene, but as a rule the outer edges of the stain dry first. Consequently, after the interior portion flakes off or is smeared by an object, a dry blood spatter can skeletonize, that is, leave behind a ring similar in appearance (if not color) to a water ring on a coffee table [source: James et al.]. Patterns of drying help analysts determine how long an assault went on, detect whether it took place all at once or in stages, and nail down possible crime scene contamination [source: Wonder]. Clotting patterns in blood provide similar information and can help nail down the time factor if analysts arrive at the scene before blood can dry. Clotting begins within 3 to 15 minutes, but actual times vary by amount, surface type and environment. Mixed levels of clotting can indicate that multiple blows or gunshots occurred over time [sources: Dutelle, bloodstain pattern evidence. Anita Y. Wonder].
WHAT WOULD BE A REASONABLE
DRYING TIME FOR FLOWS?
Because the drying time of the flows may have
been viewed as important, an exhibit was
made to illustrate timing for flows to leave
faint traces after being wiped. A reasonable
facsimile was approximated for the humidity
and temperature of the stream area where the
vehicle travel terminated. The stream area
was cooler and probably a little more humid
than the test area for the flows. The conclusion
would therefore be that drying would
be within that time or longer. Exact times
for the experiment are purposely not given.
When a court exhibit is necessary to demonstrate
drying times, the experimentation
should be conducted using the parameters of
the specific case. In this situation the result of
TIMING IS EVERYTHING 59
the exercise was that five minutes was insufficient for the degree of drying noted
in the photographs of the victim's face. The exhibit confirmed that the blood
flows occurred, were wiped, and dried over a time period in excess of that available
between the alleged traffic accident and the arrival of the volunteer fireman.
No transfer material to wipe the flows was found in the car.
Conditions of the reconstruction were that fresh human blood, hematocrit
47 percent, was drawn by syringe venipuncture without anticoagulant. Runs
were immediately applied to the reverse side of pigskin suede, which is a
reasonable facsimile to human skin, tilted at 35 degrees, at a temperature of 68° E
At one, two, three, four, and five minutes,
respectively, a latex gloved finger was passed
over the stain. At remaining times a facial
tissue was rubbed through the stain. For
light touching, five minutes was sufficient
drying time but for wiping of the stains,
up to 20 minutes was required under the
conditions of this experiment. After six
and a half minutes the whole sheet was
tilted at 90 ° to see if the flows could change
directions that late
The thin stream of blood running down Sheila's mouth has coagulated while the thicker stream on her neck is not fully coagulated. You can tell by appearance, The outer edges of the blood are more coagulated than the centre.
A study published in the International Journal of Legal Medicine reported that a blood drop on a hard surface in a typical indoor setting at 20 degrees Celsius is completely dry in 60 minutes. Increasing the temperature to 24 degrees Celsius reduces the drying time to only 30 minutes
One thin stream of dry blood is perfectly consistent with absence of lividity showing Sheila died just over two hours before these photos were taken.
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No the blood is running down! Look at both sides of her mouth. The neck wounds only run downwards towards the right because the wounds are more the right than the left. Gravity will take the blood in the path of least resistance
Yes....Gravity took the blood from the neck wounds to the right down onto the right side of her nightdress and across her right arm in two strips.....Sheila was on her right at some point....so moved!
JB obviously killed Sheila before leaving the house and ringing the police....why do you think he was the only one left alive....chance or planning? Did you know that JB made a point of asking CC if the twins were going to the farm that weekend, this was because it was a chance to have them all under the same roof!
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David your article only proves how long it takes for blood to dry.....the point is how long had it been dry 1 hour or 10 hours? it was certainly cracked.
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David your article only proves how long it takes for blood to dry.....the point is how long had it been dry 1 hour or 10 hours? it was certainly cracked.
The thin stream of blood by her mouth has very much coagulated yes that can take less than 60 minutes. But if you look at the thicker stream of blood by her neck, You can see the outer edges are more coagulated than the inside area of the stream.
Dr Maloni and Dr Cavalli concluded that based on the photographs of the blood, Sheila could only have died after 5.30am no sooner. Its in Italian but I will try and find the English translation for you.
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Police moved her hand and nightie because her private parts were showing and this is when some of the blood could have pooled in that way.
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Police moved her hand and nightie because her private parts were showing and this is when some of the blood could have pooled in that way.
They only moved her arm and hand to get a good photo of the stains underneath. Nothing else
DI Cook moved her hand and arm. Since he arrived at the scene at 9.20am we can get an idea of when that photo was taken :)
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The thin stream of blood by her mouth has very much coagulated yes that can take less than 60 minutes. But if you look at the thicker stream of blood by her neck, You can see the outer edges are more coagulated than the inside area of the stream.
Dr Maloni and Dr Cavalli concluded that based on the photographs of the blood, Sheila could only have died after 5.30am no sooner. Its in Italian but I will try and find the English translation for you.
And yet this picture was taken at the same time.
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I don't know the author of this piece and it's probably been posted a hundred times before but it makes some interesting points. One which has stuck in my mind just now is the twins, whom one Police Officer upon discovery thought were sleeping and he was determined not to wake them up until the whole thing had been cleared up.
There was simply no need for Jeremy to shoot them. He wanted the whole fortune to himself, which is why he did. http://bambermugfordaccomplicestomurder.blogspot.com.es/2012/04/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html
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I don't know the author of this piece and it's probably been posted a hundred times before but it makes some interesting points. One which has stuck in my mind just now is the twins, whom one Police Officer upon discovery thought were sleeping and he was determined not to wake them up until the whole thing had been cleared up.
There was simply no need for Jeremy to shoot them. He wanted the whole fortune to himself, which is why he did. http://bambermugfordaccomplicestomurder.blogspot.com.es/2012/04/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html
The twins were shot in their sleep. Suggesting they were the first victims. This points to a murderess who believed they were possessed by the devil. Not a murderer who was seeking fortune.
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The twins were shot in their sleep. Suggesting they were the first victims. This points to a murderess who believed they were possessed by the devil. Not a murderer who was seeking fortune.
The murderer would have had to share his fortune had the twins survived.
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Heading for a mental wobble, on a bad comedown from illegal drugs, got sketchy had an illness anyway, couldn't cope with her emotions on top of medication that had been altered! went crazy.End of
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Caroline why are your pictures different? did you alter them?
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Heading for a mental wobble, on a bad comedown from illegal drugs, got sketchy had an illness anyway, couldn't cope with her emotions on top of medication that had been altered! went crazy.End of
4 of those criteria apply equally to Jeremy.
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was jeremy on medication then? or just a casual weed smoker?big difference
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was jeremy on medication then? or just a casual weed smoker?big difference
He was moody without cannabis.
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The only person that sais rubbish is you.
You expect me to ignore the photographs and forensic science to just blindly follow your poor feeble minded judgement? I think not
It occurs to me that since you "borrowed" someones else's work and ran with it as your own, you've set yourself up as being an expert EVERYTHING ie. detective -or might that be defective, doctor -or perhaps dictator, pathologist -apologist for, psychologist -or more correctly FARtologist, blower of hot air, photographer -who sees things which don't exist. There's more than a whiff here of, if not, delusions of grandeur, someone who is hoping to see his name/someone else's work credited as being his and/OR maybe/hopefully suitable reward of a financial nature.
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Its Junes blood. She was shot several times (non fatally) got out of the bed and ran round the room and back to towards the door before collapsing. She was then shot several times later
It's the way ya tell'em. Did it amuse you to tell us about the poor woman RUNNING to and fro, not only with a BODY peppered with bullets, but with one, if not in her LEG, possibly in her knee?
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Heading for a mental wobble, on a bad comedown from illegal drugs, got sketchy had an illness anyway, couldn't cope with her emotions on top of medication that had been altered! went crazy.End of
How come nothing illegal, save traces of cannabis, was found at autopsy?
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The twins were shot in their sleep. Suggesting they were the first victims. This points to a murderess who believed they were possessed by the devil. Not a murderer who was seeking fortune.
totally disagree .you have no PROOF what so ever the twins were killed first .because they were asleep they were shot first how do you work that out.its your opinion they were shot first.jb would not be messing about with the twins when 3 adults needed subduing
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If I remember rightly,it was the pathologist who'd first suggested that the twins died first. What do you say to that ? Disbelieve those who know ?
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totally disagree .you have no PROOF what so ever the twins were killed first .because they were asleep they were shot first how do you work that out.its your opinion they were shot first.jb would not be messing about with the twins when 3 adults needed subduing
I agree Sami, it's just more bluster from David who thinks he's a leg end in his own lunch time. No one knows who died first.
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I agree Sami, it's just more bluster from David who thinks he's a leg end in his own lunch time. No one knows who died first.
Vanezis seemed to think so ? Afterall it was he who saw them not us ( fortunately )
He who has 9 letters after his name.
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Vanezis seemed to think so ? Afterall it was he who saw them not us ( fortunately )
He who has 9 letters after his name.
Vanezis didn't go to the crime scene and went by what he was told by police.
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Vanezis didn't go to the crime scene and went by what he was told by police.
It was someone other than the police who'd said so.
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Vanezis seemed to think so ? Afterall it was he who saw them not us ( fortunately )
He who has 9 letters after his name.
yes is it the same person who couldnt establish the time of death.he also has no proof twins were shot first no evidence whatso ever to points to that its his opinion
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yes is it the same person who couldnt establish the time of death.he also has no proof twins were shot first no evidence whatso ever to points to that its his opinion
I think they were shot last with whatever was left in the rifle, which is why one was shot 5 times and the other only 3.
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do the letters after his name spell bungaler because it should also be written after his name
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The pathologist at trial said it was not possible to establish the time of death for anyone.
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The pathologist at trial said it was not possible to establish the time of death for anyone.
David seems to think he can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I think they were shot last with whatever was left in the rifle, which is why one was shot 5 times and the other only 3.
i agree caroline ,simply because they were no threat they could hardly run out of a locked whf.the best they could have done if one was awake would be to hide and jb would have soon found and dispatched him.they wouldnt have been able to dail 999 cause jb had already disconnected the phone
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yes is it the same person who couldnt establish the time of death.he also has no proof twins were shot first no evidence whatso ever to points to that its his opinion
Just testing. Ah,so you don't believe that professionals get it right all the time,even with one of the country's most publicised murders ? Doesn't say much of all those who were involved in the investigation does it,especially Vanezis the most " decorated " man ?
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I think they were shot last with whatever was left in the rifle, which is why one was shot 5 times and the other only 3.
I doubt that Sheila was counting. There was a stray bullet in the bedroom indicating reloading went on there.
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Just testing. Ah,so you don't believe that professionals get it right all the time,even with one of the country's most publicised murders ? Doesn't say much of all those who were involved in the investigation does it,especially Vanezis the most " decorated " man ?
no human being gets it right every time impossible.his mistakes or carelessness was because like some others he believed jb's story
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I doubt that Sheila was counting. There was a stray bullet in the bedroom indicating reloading went on there.
No but Jeremy was!
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totally disagree .you have no PROOF what so ever the twins were killed first .because they were asleep they were shot first how do you work that out.its your opinion they were shot first.jb would not be messing about with the twins when 3 adults needed subduing
I have already explained to you why the twins died first, I have written this in detail before. Why repeat myself?
You apply the most senseless double standards. When you are shown anything that shows Jeremy did not commit the crime, you demand I show you an array of authoritative evidence and sources, once that is provided, you then find excuses not to accept it. However if someone spouts a few lines of ignorant half-baked reasons for why Jeremy did commit the crime, You cheerfully praise and accept it without question. ::)
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No but Jeremy was!
How about you stop yelling all these myopic one liners, and find a plausible explanation as to how Sheila can have no developed post mortem hypostasis in her arms and legs after being dead for over 7 hours ::)
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How about you stop yelling all these myopic one liners, and find a plausible explanation as to how Sheila can have no developed post mortem hypostasis in her arms and legs after being dead for over 7 hours ::)
She has.
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I have already explained to you why the twins died first, I have written this in detail before. Why repeat myself?
You apply the most senseless double standards. When you are shown anything that shows Jeremy did not commit the crime, you demand I show you an array of authoritative evidence and sources, once that is provided, you then find excuses not to accept it. However if someone spouts a few lines of ignorant half-baked reasons for why Jeremy did commit the crime, You cheerfully praise and accept it without question. ::)
ive read your reasons and its utter nonsense .laughable.they were first because they were sleeping in their beds :)) :)) :)) :))
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I doubt that Sheila was counting. There was a stray bullet in the bedroom indicating reloading went on there.
a stray bullet means there was reloading going on .how did you work that one out :)
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a stray bullet means there was reloading going on .how did you work that one out :)
How else would an un-fired bullet get into the twins room?
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Would JB have left an empty bullet box/container in the bedroom ? Was it fingerprinted ?
Why would JB have needed to have carried loose bullets ?
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She has.
She has not. ;D
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She has on her arm....and I don't mean the blood!
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Here.....
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Here.....
I don't know what you are seeing or where you are looking. But whatever it is its not postmortem lividity because it does not appear in just one isolated spot. it appears all over the body
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Unless parts of the body are covered or pressed hard on a hard surface...then Livor Mortis does not appear that's why in an early photo you put up you can see only parts of livor mortis on the man's back.
And I've explained to you that Sheila were not in the position we see her when livor moris appeared. The top side of her arms...now showing...was on the ground....hence livor mortis.
There is no need to keep showing me how livor mortis settles, just remember she wasn't on her back soon after death. Do you really believe Sheila's position shown doesn't look staged. It looks like she died perfectly straight! Only her head in an different angle, and the back of her nightdress is pulled up where she was positioned after death. If Sheila had shot herself twice the rifle would have fell away from her neck the same time she fell back.
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Have members seen this video with contributions by Giovanni di Stefano, before he was jailed for fourteen years for deception, fraud and money laundering.. https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU
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Well Colin mentions it in his book and he was the person who knew her best, though admittedly not a doctor himself. I don't have the books in front of me but it tallies with an incident in CAL's book where Sheila was walking across the farmyard and just waded into the geese as if they weren't there.
Thanks. Sheila sufferring from Tardrive Dyskinsia is very interesting.
Obviously if Sheila sufferred from Tardrive Dyskinsia, was 7 stone, could not put sugar in coffee and found it difficult getting up off sofas, it is impossible for her to have committed the massacre with military style, precision, strenght, determination and speed.
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Tardive dyskinesia (TD) is a medical term that describes the involuntary sudden, jerky or slow twisting movements of the face and/or body caused as an unwanted side effect of medication (mainly antipsychotic drug.
For example, you may:
Feel self-conscious about movements you make
Feel upset that you can’t control what your body is doing.
Quote: "It is very scary to have pieces of your body doing their own thing and it affects your sense of self. You are no longer in control of your basic human boundaries".
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Unless parts of the body are covered or pressed hard on a hard surface...then Livor Mortis does not appear that's why in an early photo you put up you can see only parts of livor mortis on the man's back.
Yes and those areas you cannot see in the photo of either June or Sheila.
And I've explained to you that Sheila were not in the position we see her when livor moris appeared. The top side of her arms...now showing...was on the ground....hence livor mortis.
And I have explained to you why this is wrong.
1. No blood stain patterns on the floor showing Sheila was moved. They all small circular drops caused by June walking or running in that area. Passive blood drops of JUNES blood type
2. No blood stain patterns on Sheila showing Sheila was moved. If she was moved there would be messy smudges and swipes all over her.
3. You say she was not in that position when Livor mortis appeared. so Jeremy waited around for few hours so he could move Sheila? Firstly it sounds absurd. Secondly that would mean Jeremy would have clean up all blood from the carped showing that he moved the body. Then somehow DI Cook manages to move Sheila's arm after being dead for 10 hours or so. Then you have uncoagulated blood on her neck. And Liver mortis just shows up in one tiny patch, so where did all the other blood go? LOL
There is no need to keep showing me how livor mortis settles, just remember she wasn't on her back soon after death.
Yes she was. ;D
If Sheila had shot herself twice the rifle would have fell away from her neck the same time she fell back.
And that is exactly what happened. Your trying to shoehorn Jeremy into an impossible situation when the truth is so obvious.
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Tardive dyskinesia (TD) is a medical term that describes the involuntary sudden, jerky or slow twisting movements of the face and/or body caused as an unwanted side effect of medication (mainly antipsychotic drug.
For example, you may:
Feel self-conscious about movements you make
Feel upset that you can’t control what your body is doing.
Quote: "It is very scary to have pieces of your body doing their own thing and it affects your sense of self. You are no longer in control of your basic human boundaries".
Absolutely, and though I'm not convinced as Maggie said that Colin was right there is more on the side effects of Haldoperidol here:
Muscle spasms: It is relatively common to experience muscle spasms on this medication. It is an older antipsychotic that is associated with development of extrapyramidal symptoms. If you notice more frequent and uncontrolled spasms, talk to your doctor about it. Muscle spasms can often be a precursor to tardive dyskinesia.
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Absolutely, and though I'm not convinced as Maggie said that Colin was right there is more on the side effects of Haldoperidol here:
Muscle spasms: It is relatively common to experience muscle spasms on this medication. It is an older antipsychotic that is associated with development of extrapyramidal symptoms. If you notice more frequent and uncontrolled spasms, talk to your doctor about it. Muscle spasms can often be a precursor to tardive dyskinesia.
H Steve, I wouldn't argue with Colin as obviously he has more knowledge than most about Sheila's physical health however there are different grades of TD. I keep meaning to find Colin's comments on this but haven't gt there yet.
I know Sheila took Stelazine for a while which was an old drug very well known to cause TD and I have it in my head that she was also prescribed a drug which prevented or controlled TD but need to find the details on the forum. We do know that Shela wasn't taking a drug for TD at the time of her death as it wasn't present in her body which would question the fact that she still suffered from TD. :-\
We don't know whether changing from Stelazine to Haloperidol helped her or made it worse and may have been the reason she wanted the dose cut down.
Imo we just don't know for sure if Sheila was suffering from TD at the time of the murders, I agree if she was and it affected her upper body she would have found it very difficult to handle a firearm.
I have seen TD of the face and it is an awful affliction which Sheila would have absolutely hated and I'm sure she would have tried anything to get rid of it.
The side effects of the medication Sheila had to take were horrendous and she may have believed they were worse than her illness and to her may have felt like a fate worse than death.
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Yes and those areas you cannot see in the photo of either June or Sheila.
And I have explained to you why this is wrong.
1. No blood stain patterns on the floor showing Sheila was moved. They all small circular drops caused by June walking or running in that area. Passive blood drops of JUNES blood type
2. No blood stain patterns on Sheila showing Sheila was moved. If she was moved there would be messy smudges and swipes all over her.
3. You say she was not in that position when Livor mortis appeared. so Jeremy waited around for few hours so he could move Sheila? Firstly it sounds absurd. Secondly that would mean Jeremy would have clean up all blood from the carped showing that he moved the body. Then somehow DI Cook manages to move Sheila's arm after being dead for 10 hours or so. Then you have uncoagulated blood on her neck. And Liver mortis just shows up in one tiny patch, so where did all the other blood go? LOL
Yes she was. ;D
And that is exactly what happened. Your trying to shoehorn Jeremy into an impossible situation when the truth is so obvious.
I think you should have researched livor mortis a little better before spouting off as though you are an expert!
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In defence of David,he's not to blame for his side of the information that he posted,but the varying discussions/notes that are abound by the different pathologists/scientists,of which there is.
No two doctors will give the same diagnosis,etc etc.
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1. No blood stain patterns on the floor showing Sheila was moved. They all small circular drops caused by June walking or running in that area. Passive blood drops of JUNES blood type
Haven't you seen the U shaped blood stain above the bible? ::) It could well be June's, but in that case the bible wasn't there when June walked around the bed as the blood was on the inside of the bible pages! The blood from Sheila's wounds are on the right side of her nightdress not on the carpet ....none on her left at all!! June lying where she finally fell ,isn't lying straight back unlike SC who has been placed in that position. I am not assuming SC was moved substantially hence dropping blood everywhere, but she was turned over! (Although some people...me included.. think that NB was shot 4 times in the bedroom and left hardly any or NO blood!) Also, It's commonly regarded that SC was half sitting at the time of death.
[/color]
2. No blood stain patterns on Sheila showing Sheila was moved. If she was moved there would be messy smudges and swipes all over her.
I'm not saying SC was moved any distance....just turned over, but yes there is a pattern...her finger prints on her nightdress where her hand had laid
[/b]
3. You say she was not in that position when Livor mortis appeared. so Jeremy waited around for few hours so he could move Sheila?
Livor Mortis starts in 20 -30 minutes. "Movement of a body in the first few hours after death can be evident by patches of lividity on different areas of the body" As for JB waiting a few hours...that's not worth replying too!
Firstly it sounds absurd. Secondly that would mean Jeremy would have clean up all blood from the carped showing that he moved the body.
Your suggestions, yes Absurd! But that's because you don't want to see any alternative. As I mentioned above....the blood loss from SC was on her NIGHTDRESS not the CARPET![/b]
[/b]
Then somehow DI Cook manages to move Sheila's arm after being dead for 10 hours or so. Then you have uncoagulated blood on her neck. And Liver mortis just shows up in one tiny patch, so where did all the other blood go? LOL
Perhaps you need your eyes tested as the blood on SC's neck has dried and cracked, and there is more livor mortis present than you can obviously see. Regarding SC being dead 10 hours...think of this as about 8 hours and you'll be nearer the right time. I admit I did at one time think the murders could have been done a lot earlier, but not any more.
[/b]
I've already said that rigor mortis can take as long as 12 hours to become complete starting with the eyes and face. It also all depends on many things such as temperature, and age. I thought you would have known this.
And that is exactly what happened. Your trying to shoehorn Jeremy into an impossible situation when the truth is so obvious.
It's obvious you're not so well informed as I thought you were.
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Thanks. Sheila sufferring from Tardrive Dyskinsia is very interesting.
Obviously if Sheila sufferred from Tardrive Dyskinsia, was 7 stone, could not put sugar in coffee and found it difficult getting up off sofas, it is impossible for her to have committed the massacre with military style, precision, strenght, determination and speed.
I found a passage about this in Colin's book.
What Bambs’s psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, did not explain to me at either of our meetings were the usual side effects of these major tranquillisers, also known as neuroleptics, and a neuroleptic-induced brain disease called Tardive Dyskinesia. Which would develop as a result of prolonged use of them.
Bamb’s had been on various combinations, in often high does, for the best part of two years.
It's so sad that Sheila's family didn't know about, and understand, this was what was happening to Sheila and why she appeared as she did to many people...poor girl!
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I think you should have researched livor mortis a little better before spouting off as though you are an expert!
I did research it. is Shelia elderly? No is Shelia a child? No
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I did research it. is Shelia elderly? No is Shelia a child? No
It doesn't say JUST just children and the elderly, the article gives a FOR INSTANCE. Lividity isn't used to to determine time of death because it's an even Worse indicator than rigor mortis - that's what the experts say David and you're no where ner one of those!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It occurs to me that since you "borrowed" someones else's work and ran with it as your own, you've set yourself up as being an expert EVERYTHING ie. detective -or might that be defective, doctor -or perhaps dictator, pathologist -apologist for, psychologist -or more correctly FARtologist, blower of hot air, photographer -who sees things which don't exist. There's more than a whiff here of, if not, delusions of grandeur, someone who is hoping to see his name/someone else's work credited as being his and/OR maybe/hopefully suitable reward of a financial nature.
Ha, ha! Remember Jane, David did one work for a policeman - he was probably his window cleaner but work is work! ;) ;D ;D
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Have members seen this video with contributions by Giovanni di Stefano, before he was jailed for fourteen years for deception, fraud and money laundering.. https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU
So why is this relevant to Jeremy Bamber because his legal team at the time were convicted of shenanigans out of his control? still doesn't make the man guilty.
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1. No blood stain patterns on the floor showing Sheila was moved. They all small circular drops caused by June walking or running in that area. Passive blood drops of JUNES blood type
Haven't you seen the U shaped blood stain above the bible? ::) It could well be June's, but in that case the bible wasn't there when June walked around the bed as the blood was on the inside of the bible pages! The blood from Sheila's wounds are on the right side of her nightdress not on the carpet ....none on her left at all!! June lying where she finally fell ,isn't lying straight back unlike SC who has been placed in that position. I am not assuming SC was moved substantially hence dropping blood everywhere, but she was turned over! (Although some people...me included.. think that NB was shot 4 times in the bedroom and left hardly any or NO blood!) Also, It's commonly regarded that SC was half sitting at the time of death.
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2. No blood stain patterns on Sheila showing Sheila was moved. If she was moved there would be messy smudges and swipes all over her.
I'm not saying SC was moved any distance....just turned over, but yes there is a pattern...her finger prints on her nightdress where her hand had laid
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3. You say she was not in that position when Livor mortis appeared. so Jeremy waited around for few hours so he could move Sheila?
Livor Mortis starts in 20 -30 minutes. "Movement of a body in the first few hours after death can be evident by patches of lividity on different areas of the body" As for JB waiting a few hours...that's not worth replying too!
Firstly it sounds absurd. Secondly that would mean Jeremy would have clean up all blood from the carped showing that he moved the body.
Your suggestions, yes Absurd! But that's because you don't want to see any alternative. As I mentioned above....the blood loss from SC was on her NIGHTDRESS not the CARPET![/b]
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Then somehow DI Cook manages to move Sheila's arm after being dead for 10 hours or so. Then you have uncoagulated blood on her neck. And Liver mortis just shows up in one tiny patch, so where did all the other blood go? LOL
Perhaps you need your eyes tested as the blood on SC's neck has dried and cracked, and there is more livor mortis present than you can obviously see. Regarding SC being dead 10 hours...think of this as about 8 hours and you'll be nearer the right time. I admit I did at one time think the murders could have been done a lot earlier, but not any more.
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I've already said that rigor mortis can take as long as 12 hours to become complete starting with the eyes and face. It also all depends on many things such as temperature, and age. I thought you would have known this.
And that is exactly what happened. Your trying to shoehorn Jeremy into an impossible situation when the truth is so obvious.
It's obvious you're not so well informed as I thought you were.
I am well informed. And you can be also by just reading the evidence I read.
Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back. COA 2002
The above is another inconvenient aspect of evidence that Caroline likes to ignore because it demonstrates the obvious. Sheila shot herself
More trail transcripts below if you want to read more :)
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I found a passage about this in Colin's book.
What Bambs’s psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, did not explain to me at either of our meetings were the usual side effects of these major tranquillisers, also known as neuroleptics, and a neuroleptic-induced brain disease called Tardive Dyskinesia. Which would develop as a result of prolonged use of them.
Bamb’s had been on various combinations, in often high does, for the best part of two years.
It's so sad that Sheila's family didn't know about, and understand, this was what was happening to Sheila and why she appeared as she did to many people...poor girl!
Obviously CC's book is a primary source.
There is no possibilty Sheila could have committed the massacre. Even in the 0.1% chance she did wake up in the middle of the night and decide she wanted to.
She was a recovering anorexic and 7 stone. The pictures show she was almost child like.
She had no experience of weapons and would not know how to chamber, load and put the silencer on or take it off.
She had co ordination problems and sufferred from Tardrive Dyskenisia. She couldn't put sugar in coffee and found it difficult getting up off chairs. The medication would just make her drowsy.
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Well done David :)
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Obviously CC's book is a primary source.
There is no possibilty Sheila could have committed the massacre. Even in the 0.1% chance she did wake up in the middle of the night and decide she wanted to.
She was a recovering anorexic and 7 stone. The pictures show she was almost child like.
Obviously CC's book is a primary source.
There is no possibilty Sheila could have committed the massacre. Even in the 0.1% chance she did wake up in the middle of the night and decide she wanted to.
She was a recovering anorexic and 7 stone. The pictures show she was almost child like.
She had no experience of weapons and would not know how to chamber, load and put the silencer on or take it off.
She never went to bed
she never woke up
just because she was light doesn't stop her from being very strong in a rage
lots of experience with weapons being farmers daughter
her medication had been altered
l
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The evidence shows both Sheila and Neville went to bed. Both bare footed on pyjamas and nightdress.
She was 7 stone. Neville was 15.
Both CC and Bamber said she had no / limited experience with guns.
Her medication would make her drowsy and uncordinated. She sufferred from Tardrive Dyskinsia.
There is no possibilty Sheila could have committed the massacre. And ridiculous that Neville would ever consider calling Bamber.
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and? explained in earlier threads, going over the same old ground yet again!!
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So why is this relevant to Jeremy Bamber because his legal team at the time were convicted of shenanigans out of his control? still doesn't make the man guilty.
It's not relevant and I have conceded that there may be points to answer regarding the photos, if only they were of higher quality. The video does put Jeremy's crimes in some kind of context, however.
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Yes, your right Adam as always, well done.
Sarcasm? look it up!!!
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I am well informed. And you can be also by just reading the evidence I read.
Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back. COA 2002
The above is another inconvenient aspect of evidence that Caroline likes to ignore because it demonstrates the obvious. Sheila shot herself
How do you make that out then?! Read what Judge Drake said under the side heading (E) Vanezis replied to the Judge's question by agreeing with the Judge when he said... "you couldn't say if it was suicide or murder" As for Sheila sitting up, I told you that last night! Actually I said SC was half sitting, but never the less sitting up. Of course she fell back when shot, but SC didn't fall back from a sitting position and end up with her legs laid out perfectly straight and then position the gun under her chin. the gun is where it is because it was placed there!!
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Nothing zilch, He never killed his family!!
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There is already a thread on Sheila sitting up when shot. Everyone seems to agree this was the case.
She could not fall back as she was leaning against something.
There was a slim chance she would fall sideways if what she was leaning against was not giving her solid support. However her body position shows she didn't.
But there was no way her lower body would move forward along the ground over two feet when dead. It seems everyone agrees her legs were pulled after the second shot. Some supporters claiming it was the police.
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Sarcasm? look it up!!!
I'm sorry but you agreed with me that because you can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre, it means Bamber is guilty. Which is basic common sense. So I don't know why you are disputing Bamber's guilt.
Luckily it's easy to explain how Bamber committed the massacre. To match the crime scene.
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It is a good point that Sheila's legs were so straight and together.
They would be straight and together if someone pulled them.
If she shot herself sitting up, her legs would be wide apart and pulled up towards her body by Sheila. So most of her legs were off the ground. This is so she can balance herself and put the rifle in front of her on the floor, under her chin.
However her legs were found straight and close together.
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It is good that post 284 has an expert at trial saying Sheila was sitting up when shot. Obviously leaning against the bedside cabinet.
There now just needs to be an expert to say how a rifle shot to the neck propels a lifeless persons lower body forward along the floor for well over two feet.
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I'm sorry but you agreed with me that because you can't explain how Sheila committed the massacre, it means Bamber is guilty. Which is basic common sense. So I don't know why you are disputing Bamber's guilt.
Luckily it's easy to explain how Bamber committed the massacre. To match the crime scene.
Really Adam? Can you please explain how Jeremy managed to kill Sheila, When the crime scene photos demonstrate she died around 7am. How does Jeremy manage to kill someone inside the farm when he is outside with the police? easy to explain you say ::)
It is a good point that Sheila's legs were so straight and together.
They would be straight and together if someone pulled them.
If she shot herself sitting up, her legs would be wide apart and pulled up towards her body by Sheila. So most of her legs were off the ground. This is so she can balance herself and put the rifle in front of her on the floor, under her chin.
However her legs were found straight and close together.
More nonsense from you. The two photos below
Eric Harris & Dyland Klebold - Gunshot suicides to face/neck, Legs straight and close together
(http://65.media.tumblr.com/51a0af0341030a19d539d7c47d1a1e71/tumblr_o404qz3hHU1shfywgo2_500.jpg)
Kurt Cobain - Gunshot suicide to face/neck, also Legs straight and close together
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2593393.1460130891!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/cobain-10-years.jpg)
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Really Adam? Can you please explain how Jeremy managed to kill Sheila, When the crime scene photos demonstrate she died around 7am. How does Jeremy manage to kill someone inside the farm when he is outside with the police? easy to explain you say ::)
More nonsense from you. The two photos below
Eric Harris & Dyland Klebold - Gunshot suicides to face/neck, Legs straight and close together
(http://65.media.tumblr.com/51a0af0341030a19d539d7c47d1a1e71/tumblr_o404qz3hHU1shfywgo2_500.jpg)
Kurt Cobain - Gunshot suicide to face/neck, also Legs straight and close together
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2593393.1460130891!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/cobain-10-years.jpg)
Oh sorry I forgot. You have made another 'forensic evidence breakthrough'.
You're photos somehow show Sheila had been dead a short time. Don't tell us. Write to Bamber and the courts. Although they have already seen the photos.
The pictures you just posted of totally unrelated deaths just shows one person with open legs, another in hunched position on his side and another photo just shows one leg.
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JB couldn't commit murders or anything else when he wasn't even inside the farmhouse-------he was outside for hours with police officers.
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JB couldn't commit murders or anything else when he wasn't even inside the farmhouse-------he was outside for hours with police officers.
:)
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:)
;D
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:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
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JB couldn't commit murders or anything else when he wasn't even inside the farmhouse-------he was outside for hours with police officers.
Yeah ;D ;D ;D ;D
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JB couldn't commit murders or anything else when he wasn't even inside the farmhouse-------he was outside for hours with police officers.
Why do you believe Sheila stayed alive until the raid team entered ?
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Yeah ;D ;D ;D ;D
It's quite true. You can't be in two places at once.
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Why do you believe Sheila stayed alive until the raid team entered ?
Because when the raid team entered Sheila hadn't been dead long,which was the " noise " that was heard after entrance--------the firing of the last bullet.That's when the team realised that there were others upstairs.
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Because when the raid team entered Sheila hadn't been dead long,which was the " noise " that was heard after entrance--------the firing of the last bullet.That's when the team realised that there were others upstairs.
Sorry I meant why did Sheila choose to stay alive for several hours after killing everyone else, if she wanted to commit murder/suicide.
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Sorry I meant why did Sheila choose to stay alive for several hours after killing everyone else, if she wanted to commit murder/suicide.
Because in her mind she'd done the right thing by her boys in defending what was " evil " in that household.
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So where is the forensic evidence which says Sheila did it?
This was to be my response. Is Sheila supposed to have showered after the murders? What was she wearing whilst commiting the crime?
There's no forensic evidence linking Sheila.
But only Bamber had the time and oppurtunity to shower AND dispose of any incriminating evidence.
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This was to be my response. Is Sheila supposed to have showered after the murders? What was she wearing whilst commiting the crime?
There's no forensic evidence linking Sheila.
But only Bamber had the time and oppurtunity to shower AND dispose of any incriminating evidence.
Do I believe that Sheila had time to bath? yes.
Do I believe that Sheila was the shooter? no.
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Do I believe that Sheila had time to bath? yes.
Do I believe that Sheila was the shooter? no.
Time to bath, I agree. But do what with the clothes she was wearing. I can agree that she had the oppurunity to have showered. But not dispose of her clothes.
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Do I believe that Sheila had time to bath? yes.
Do I believe that Sheila was the shooter? no.
Sheila only had 22 minutes to do everything if you believe Neville phoned Chelmsford police. It would have taken her over an hour.
If you take away Neville's call she may achieved everything in time if working with SAS esq efficiency.
You're call.
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Time to bath, I agree. But do what with the clothes she was wearing. I can agree that she had the oppurunity to have showered. But not dispose of her clothes.
Hiya Mat :) Why would she worry about disposing of bloodied clothes? She put her undies in soak. Odd, don't you think if she intended suicide?
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Hiya Mat :) Why would she worry about disposing of bloodied clothes? She put her undies in soak. Odd, don't you think if she intended suicide?
Hello you!
Not only WHY would she.. but WHERE?
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Sheila only had 22 minutes to do everything if you believe Neville phoned Chelmsford police. It would have taken her over an hour.
If you take away Neville's call she may achieved everything in time if working with SAS esq efficiency.
You're call.
I already said I do not think Sheila committed the murders.
KEEP UP. Your call.
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Hello you!
Not only WHY would she.. but WHERE?
Supporters will say she put them in the Aga, but I don't believe that fits with psychosis -given that she soaked the undies- OR depression.
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I already said I do not think Sheila committed the murders.
KEEP UP. Your call.
Yes but you need to have valid reasons. You're threads, posts and knowledge of the subject are and is xxxxxxxx.
Saying Bamber should have 'lobbed Julie overboard'. Or claiming Neville was asleep when Sheila started shooting June. Then denying saying it.
Do you believe Neville called Chelmsford police ?
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Yes but you need to have valid reasons. You're threads, posts and knowledge of the subject are and is xxxxxxxx.
Saying Bamber should have 'lobbed Julie overboard'. Or claiming Neville was asleep when Sheila started shooting June. Then denying saying it.
Do you believe Neville called Chelmsford police ?
I bow to your superior knowledge. NOT.
You are xxxxxxxxx, and long winded to boot. People only read half your posts, as insomnia kicks in..
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I bow to your superior knowledge. NOT.
You are xxxxxxxxx, and long winded to boot. People only read half your posts, as insomnia kicks in..
i think we should stick to the topic personal insults are not needed and they only stir up a far worse response :)
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Said the pot to the kettle.
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Said the pot to the kettle.
if that remark is aimed at me ,than i should make it clear i never start the insults only respond to them.i much prefer being civil to 'all' forum members :)
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if that remark is aimed at me ,than i should make it clear i never start the insults only respond to them.i much prefer being civil to 'all' forum members :)
Sami, it's called 'cause and effect'. Someone -deliberately?- CAUSES the sort of conditions which EFFECT retaliation.
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Sami, it's called 'cause and effect'. Someone -deliberately?- CAUSES the sort of conditions which EFFECT retaliation.
i see, thank you jane :)
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I'm not sure where the Columbine Massacre fits in with the White House Farm murders, except that all three perpetrators were bullied. It just makes me think how important it seems for young people to want to belong to a group and what tribulation they undergo if they feel they have been ostracized.
Senior management in schools are far too preoccupied with figures and not with dealing with what can become a life or death issue.
http://www.local10.com/family/13-year-old-commits-suicide-says-he-was-bullied
We don't have such good quality photos at White House Farm. What I thought was purplish makeup on Sheila's face might well be the start of lividity. We have no pictures of her back, neither have we clear pictures of June and none of Nevill and the twins(for obvious reasons).