Aftermath, Where is the forensic evidence that Jeremy Bamber killed his family?

[Steve_uk]

Have members seen this video with contributions by Giovanni di Stefano, before he was jailed for fourteen years for deception, fraud and money laundering..  https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU

[Adam]

Well Colin mentions it in his book and he was the person who knew her best, though admittedly not a doctor himself. I don't have the books in front of me but it tallies with an incident in CAL's book where Sheila was walking across the farmyard and just waded into the geese as if they weren't there.

Thanks. Sheila sufferring from Tardrive Dyskinsia is very interesting.

Obviously if Sheila sufferred from Tardrive Dyskinsia,  was 7 stone, could not put sugar in coffee and found it difficult getting up off sofas, it is impossible for her to have committed the massacre with military style, precision, strenght, determination and speed.

[Adam]

Tardive dyskinesia (TD) is a medical term that describes the involuntary sudden, jerky or slow twisting movements of the face and/or body caused as an unwanted side effect of medication (mainly antipsychotic drug.

For example, you may:

Feel self-conscious about movements you make

Feel upset that you can’t control what your body is doing.


Quote: "It is very scary to have pieces of your body doing their own thing and it affects your sense of self. You are no longer in control of your basic human boundaries".

[David1819]

Unless parts of the body are covered or pressed hard on a hard surface...then Livor Mortis does not appear  that's why in an early photo you put up you can see only parts of livor mortis on the man's back.

Yes and those areas you cannot see in the photo of either June or Sheila.

And I've explained to you that Sheila were not in the position we see her when livor moris appeared. The top side of her arms...now showing...was on the ground....hence livor mortis.

And I have explained to you why this is wrong.

1. No blood stain patterns on the floor showing Sheila was moved. They all small circular drops caused by June walking or running in that area. Passive blood drops of JUNES blood type

2. No blood stain patterns on Sheila showing Sheila was moved. If she was moved there would be messy smudges and swipes all over her.

3. You say she was not in that position when Livor mortis appeared. so Jeremy waited around for few hours so he could move Sheila? Firstly it sounds absurd. Secondly that would mean Jeremy would have clean up all blood from the carped showing that he moved the body. Then somehow DI Cook manages to move Sheila's arm after being dead for 10 hours or so. Then you have uncoagulated blood on her neck. And Liver mortis just shows up in one tiny patch, so where did all the other blood go? LOL

There is no need to keep showing me how livor mortis settles, just remember she wasn't on her back soon after death.

Yes she was. 

If Sheila had shot herself twice the rifle would have fell away from her neck the same time she fell back.

And that is exactly what happened. Your trying to shoehorn Jeremy into an impossible situation when the truth is so obvious.

[Steve_uk]

Tardive dyskinesia (TD) is a medical term that describes the involuntary sudden, jerky or slow twisting movements of the face and/or body caused as an unwanted side effect of medication (mainly antipsychotic drug.

For example, you may:

Feel self-conscious about movements you make

Feel upset that you can’t control what your body is doing.


Quote: "It is very scary to have pieces of your body doing their own thing and it affects your sense of self. You are no longer in control of your basic human boundaries".

Absolutely, and though I'm not convinced as Maggie said that Colin was right there is more on the side effects of Haldoperidol here:

Muscle spasms: It is relatively common to experience muscle spasms on this medication. It is an older antipsychotic that is associated with development of extrapyramidal symptoms. If you notice more frequent and uncontrolled spasms, talk to your doctor about it. Muscle spasms can often be a precursor to tardive dyskinesia.

[maggie]

Absolutely, and though I'm not convinced as Maggie said that Colin was right there is more on the side effects of Haldoperidol here:

Muscle spasms: It is relatively common to experience muscle spasms on this medication. It is an older antipsychotic that is associated with development of extrapyramidal symptoms. If you notice more frequent and uncontrolled spasms, talk to your doctor about it. Muscle spasms can often be a precursor to tardive dyskinesia.

H Steve, I wouldn't argue with Colin as obviously he has more knowledge than most about Sheila's physical health however there are different grades of TD. I keep meaning to find Colin's comments on this but haven't gt there yet. 

I know Sheila took Stelazine for  a while which was an old drug very well known to cause TD and I have it in my head that she was also prescribed a drug which prevented or controlled TD but need to find the details on the forum. We do know that Shela wasn't taking a drug for TD at the time of her death as it wasn't present in her body which would question the fact that she still suffered from TD.

We don't know whether changing from Stelazine to Haloperidol helped her or made it worse and may have been the reason she wanted the dose cut down.

Imo we just don't know for sure if Sheila was suffering from TD at the time of the murders, I agree if she was and it affected her upper body she would have found it very difficult to handle a firearm.

I have seen TD of the face and it is an awful affliction which Sheila would have absolutely hated and I'm sure she would have tried anything to get rid of it. 

 The side effects of the medication Sheila had to take were horrendous and she may have believed they were worse than her illness and to her may have felt like a fate worse than death. 

[Caroline]

Yes and those areas you cannot see in the photo of either June or Sheila.


And I have explained to you why this is wrong.

1. No blood stain patterns on the floor showing Sheila was moved. They all small circular drops caused by June walking or running in that area. Passive blood drops of JUNES blood type

2. No blood stain patterns on Sheila showing Sheila was moved. If she was moved there would be messy smudges and swipes all over her.

3. You say she was not in that position when Livor mortis appeared. so Jeremy waited around for few hours so he could move Sheila? Firstly it sounds absurd. Secondly that would mean Jeremy would have clean up all blood from the carped showing that he moved the body. Then somehow DI Cook manages to move Sheila's arm after being dead for 10 hours or so. Then you have uncoagulated blood on her neck. And Liver mortis just shows up in one tiny patch, so where did all the other blood go? LOL


Yes she was. 


And that is exactly what happened. Your trying to shoehorn Jeremy into an impossible situation when the truth is so obvious.

I think you should have researched livor mortis a little better before spouting off as though you are an expert!

[lookout]

In defence of David,he's not to blame for his side of the information that he posted,but the varying discussions/notes that are abound by the different pathologists/scientists,of which there is.
No two doctors will give the same diagnosis,etc etc.

[Romeo]

1. No blood stain patterns on the floor showing Sheila was moved. They all small circular drops caused by June walking or running in that area. Passive blood drops of JUNES blood type

Haven't you seen the U shaped blood stain above the bible?  It could well be June's, but in that case the bible wasn't there when June walked around the bed as the blood was on the inside of the bible  pages! The blood from Sheila's wounds are on the right side of her nightdress not on the carpet ....none on her left at all!! June lying where she finally fell ,isn't lying straight back unlike SC who has been placed in that position. I am not assuming SC was moved substantially  hence dropping blood everywhere, but she was turned over! (Although some people...me included.. think that NB was shot 4 times in the bedroom and left hardly any or NO blood!)  Also, It's commonly regarded that SC was half sitting at the time of death.
[/color]
2. No blood stain patterns on Sheila showing Sheila was moved. If she was moved there would be messy smudges and swipes all over her. 

I'm not saying SC was moved any distance....just turned over, but yes there is a pattern...her finger prints on her nightdress where her hand had laid
[/b]
3. You say she was not in that position when Livor mortis appeared. so Jeremy waited around for few hours so he could move Sheila?

Livor Mortis starts in 20 -30 minutes. "Movement of a body in the first few hours after death can be evident by patches of lividity on different areas of the body" As for JB waiting a few hours...that's not worth replying too!

 Firstly it sounds absurd. Secondly that would mean Jeremy would have clean up all blood from the carped showing that he moved the body.

Your suggestions, yes Absurd! But that's because you don't want to see any alternative. As I mentioned above....the blood loss from SC was on her NIGHTDRESS not the CARPET![/b]
[/b]
Then somehow DI Cook manages to move Sheila's arm after being dead for 10 hours or so. Then you have uncoagulated blood on her neck. And Liver mortis just shows up in one tiny patch, so where did all the other blood go? LOL   
Perhaps you need your eyes tested as the blood on SC's neck has dried and cracked, and there is more livor mortis present than you can obviously see. Regarding SC being dead 10 hours...think of this as about 8 hours and you'll be nearer the right time. I admit I did at one time think the murders could have been done a lot earlier, but not any more.
[/b]
I've already said that rigor mortis can take as long as 12 hours to become complete starting with the eyes and face. It also all depends on many things such as temperature, and age. I thought you would have known this.

And that is exactly what happened. Your trying to shoehorn Jeremy into an impossible situation when the truth is so obvious.

It's obvious you're not so well informed as I thought you were.

[Romeo]

Thanks. Sheila sufferring from Tardrive Dyskinsia is very interesting.

Obviously if Sheila sufferred from Tardrive Dyskinsia,  was 7 stone, could not put sugar in coffee and found it difficult getting up off sofas, it is impossible for her to have committed the massacre with military style, precision, strenght, determination and speed.

I found a passage about this in Colin's book.

What Bambs’s psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, did not explain to me at either of our meetings were the usual side effects of these major tranquillisers, also known as neuroleptics, and a neuroleptic-induced brain disease called Tardive Dyskinesia.  Which would develop as a result of prolonged use of them.
Bamb’s had been on various combinations, in often high does, for the best part of two years.

It's so sad that Sheila's family didn't know about, and understand, this was what was happening to Sheila and why she appeared as she did to many people...poor girl!

[David1819]

I think you should have researched livor mortis a little better before spouting off as though you are an expert!

I did research it. is Shelia elderly? No is Shelia a child? No

[Caroline]

I did research it. is Shelia elderly? No is Shelia a child? No

It doesn't say JUST just children and the elderly, the article gives a FOR INSTANCE. Lividity isn't used to to determine time of death because it's an even Worse indicator than rigor mortis - that's what the experts say David and you're no where ner one of those!! 

[Caroline]

It occurs to me that since you "borrowed" someones else's work and ran with it as your own, you've set yourself up as being an expert EVERYTHING ie. detective -or might that be defective, doctor -or perhaps dictator, pathologist -apologist for, psychologist -or  more correctly FARtologist, blower of hot air, photographer -who sees things which don't exist. There's more than a whiff here of, if not, delusions of grandeur, someone who is hoping to see his name/someone else's work credited as being his and/OR maybe/hopefully suitable reward of a financial nature.

Ha, ha! Remember Jane, David did one work for a policeman - he was probably his window cleaner but work is work! 

[zoe]

Have members seen this video with contributions by Giovanni di Stefano, before he was jailed for fourteen years for deception, fraud and money laundering..  https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU

So why is this relevant to Jeremy Bamber because his legal team at the time were convicted of shenanigans out of his control? still doesn't make the man guilty.

[David1819]

1. No blood stain patterns on the floor showing Sheila was moved. They all small circular drops caused by June walking or running in that area. Passive blood drops of JUNES blood type

Haven't you seen the U shaped blood stain above the bible?  It could well be June's, but in that case the bible wasn't there when June walked around the bed as the blood was on the inside of the bible  pages! The blood from Sheila's wounds are on the right side of her nightdress not on the carpet ....none on her left at all!! June lying where she finally fell ,isn't lying straight back unlike SC who has been placed in that position. I am not assuming SC was moved substantially  hence dropping blood everywhere, but she was turned over! (Although some people...me included.. think that NB was shot 4 times in the bedroom and left hardly any or NO blood!)  Also, It's commonly regarded that SC was half sitting at the time of death.
[/color]
2. No blood stain patterns on Sheila showing Sheila was moved. If she was moved there would be messy smudges and swipes all over her. 

I'm not saying SC was moved any distance....just turned over, but yes there is a pattern...her finger prints on her nightdress where her hand had laid
[/b]
3. You say she was not in that position when Livor mortis appeared. so Jeremy waited around for few hours so he could move Sheila?

Livor Mortis starts in 20 -30 minutes. "Movement of a body in the first few hours after death can be evident by patches of lividity on different areas of the body" As for JB waiting a few hours...that's not worth replying too!

 Firstly it sounds absurd. Secondly that would mean Jeremy would have clean up all blood from the carped showing that he moved the body.

Your suggestions, yes Absurd! But that's because you don't want to see any alternative. As I mentioned above....the blood loss from SC was on her NIGHTDRESS not the CARPET![/b]
[/b]
Then somehow DI Cook manages to move Sheila's arm after being dead for 10 hours or so. Then you have uncoagulated blood on her neck. And Liver mortis just shows up in one tiny patch, so where did all the other blood go? LOL   
Perhaps you need your eyes tested as the blood on SC's neck has dried and cracked, and there is more livor mortis present than you can obviously see. Regarding SC being dead 10 hours...think of this as about 8 hours and you'll be nearer the right time. I admit I did at one time think the murders could have been done a lot earlier, but not any more.
[/b]
I've already said that rigor mortis can take as long as 12 hours to become complete starting with the eyes and face. It also all depends on many things such as temperature, and age. I thought you would have known this.

And that is exactly what happened. Your trying to shoehorn Jeremy into an impossible situation when the truth is so obvious.

It's obvious you're not so well informed as I thought you were.

I am well informed. And you can be also by just reading the evidence I read.

Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back. COA 2002

The above is another inconvenient aspect of evidence that Caroline likes to ignore because it demonstrates the obvious. Sheila shot herself

More trail transcripts below if you want to read more