Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on November 28, 2025, 10:51:AM
-
Meets Tora Tompkinson. Too drowsy to get off sofa without help.
Wants parents to finance trip to France. Tora & her family to look after Sheila and the twins as Sheila too drowsy.
Trip to France rejected by Nevill, June, CC & Tora. Sheila too drowsy.
Attends CC's party. Too drowsy to engage with anyone.
Driven to WHF by CC. Too drowsy ro engage with CC or her children.
Seen walking ackwardly and with lipstick on her teeth. Too drowsy to maintain herself.
Conversations about fostering in kitchen. Too drowsy to respond.
Sheila drowsy enough for Jeremy to say to Julie 'tonights the night'.
Given phone by June to speak to PB. Too drowsy to speak for 3 minutes.
Phone taken back by June. PB told June is concerned about Sheila's lack of interest in anything. Due to drowsiness.
June says Sheila has gone to bed.
Sleeping in the bed furthest from the door, her drowsiness likely to make her oblivious to the goings on a few yards away.
-
Done in chronological order. Happy to amend or add.
-
'Wants parents to finance trip to France'.
----------
We've all wanted that or something similar!
-
From Bambers perspective he would have not undertook a massacre with Shelia as the scapegoat if he knew she was out with the fairies.
Relatives saying stuff like " Couldn't make beans on toast " Is neither here or there, she could certainly wrap cigarettes and cannabis joints.
There's a wealth of evidence that Shelia was living somewhat a normal life although chaotic. Despite her hospital stays. She was undertaking manual jobs and dating men and planning holidays.
The biggest Achilles heel for Jeremy Bamber is Shelia being able to overpower Nevill and the beating Nevill took.
-
From Bambers perspective he would have not undertook a massacre with Shelia as the scapegoat if he knew she was out with the fairies.
Relatives saying stuff like " Couldn't make beans on toast " Is neither here or there, she could certainly wrap cigarettes and cannabis joints.
There's a wealth of evidence that Shelia was living somewhat a normal life although chaotic. Despite her hospital stays. She was undertaking manual jobs and dating men and planning holidays.
The biggest Achilles heel for Jeremy Bamber is Shelia being able to overpower Nevill and the beating Nevill took.
Believe Bamber felt he was in a good position. Pre massacre.
Sheila would put up no resistance. Then it was about persuading the police who didn't know her. He started persuading them straight away.
The relatives became more suspiscious when finding out Sheila had re loaded & fought Nevill. They still needed the luck of getting access to WHF due to Bamber being away.
-
Believe Bamber felt he was in a good position. Pre massacre.
For me it was a case of riding heavily on her mental health difficulties and being able to present himself as a well spoken plausible concerned relative.
Mental health awareness in the 80s was heavily stigmatised. People had very little understanding of it. It would have been quite easy to insinute Shelia due to her track history of mental health problems.
However as I said if he knew and he knew others knew of her being a literal vegtable including Colin) he was taking a massive gamble in this regard.
-
Be surprised if Sheila woke mid massacre. If the twins had to wake her in the mornings so she could take them to school, doubt the downstairs attack woke her.
But Bamber could deal with either eventuality.
-
Be surprised if Sheila woke mid massacre. If the twins had to wake her in the mornings so she could take them to school, doubt the downstairs attack woke her.
But Bamber could deal with either eventuality.
For me from Bambers perspective in his mind wouldn't be carrying it out, it's the second phase and getting it put to bed in getting believed. That's the main aim.
-
For me what damages Bamber is him insinuating her going " Target shooting with me all the time " And then later admitting he " Had never seen her fire a gun as an adult"
Was it ever established they went shooting together in their adolsence?
-
He would be hopeing to get lucky & not have the relatives suspect him. If they did suspect him, what could they do?
He needed to keep Julie on board for 3 months. If they then split up she may think it was too late to go to the police. But once the silencer results came back, the police would start interviewing Julie. She would crack quickly. Anyway he kept her on board for less than a month.
As far as on the night inside WHF goes, he will settle for a Sheila that will put up no resistance.
-
For me what damages Bamber is him insinuating her going " Target shooting with me all the time " And then later admitting he " Had never seen her fire a gun as an adult"
Was it ever established they went shooting together in their adolsence?
Only to shooting parties. Sheila only once shot from a gun, with David Boutflour holding the rifle alongside.
The target shooting allegation was a lie, and a dangerous one. Similarly with the Porsche conversation. Jeremy gets careless because he's cock-a-hoop he's accomplished his mission. He further becomes off guard when Julie arrives and he chuckled behind closed doors.
-
He would be hopeing to get lucky & not have the relatives suspect him. If they did suspect him, what could they do?
He needed to keep Julie on board for 3 months. If they then split up she may think it was too late to go to the police. But once the silencer results came back, the police would start interviewing Julie. She would crack quickly. Anyway he kept her on board for less than a month.
As far as on the night inside WHF goes, he will settle for a Sheila that will put up no resistance.
Do you think the plan always was to dump Julie post massacre?
-
He would be hopeing to get lucky & not have the relatives suspect him. If they did suspect him, what could they do?
Well that turned out well for him.
-
He would be hopeing to get lucky & not have the relatives suspect him. If they did suspect him, what could they do?
Don't know to be honest.
There was a frosty atmosphere between himself and the relarives in particular AE pre massacre, money disputes etc. Osea problems etc
He himself called them " Fucking vultures"
Within hours of the massacre, AE was disbeliving him reference the foster conversation.
I would have thought he would have closed them off completley to WHF to be honest. He had the descretion to do so.
-
Do you think the plan always was to dump Julie post massacre?
He was going to buy her off, with the promise of managing a wine bar in a fashionable area of London. The tragic irony was June had the money to set her son up in such an establishment whilst she was still alive. However, Nevill was insistent that his son would only inherit his estate should he be performing the farming function at the time of his death. Jeremy hurried the clock on somewhat.
As for Julie, her conscience was pricked. One can't exactly deduce what transpired between them both post-massacre, but it became apparent to her following the weekend spent with Colin and the dinner at Blazer's Restaurant, Blackheath that there was some psychological condition afflicting him. Maybe he could never have held down a job permanently, as evidenced by his comment that perhaps he should join cousin Roly in some far-flung Buddist monastery, at home the excitement of the chase the motivator rather than the sexual act itself. In any event, the break up was inevitable at some point, one feels, and the truth would out, though from which party first will remain moot.
-
Don't know to be honest.
There was a frosty atmosphere between himself and the relarives in particular AE pre massacre, money disputes etc. Osea problems etc
He himself called them " Fucking vultures"
Within hours of the massacre, AE was disbeliving him reference the foster conversation.
I would have thought he would have closed them off completley to WHF to be honest. He had the descretion to do so.
He did, but the farm had been a bane ever since childhood, returning to that desolate landscape after incarceration at that other alien environment, Gresham's School. No wonder the alienation increased year on year, as those intimate strangers at White House Farm became ever distant, to the point he could endure no more. Following the Suzette break up and the miscarriages, which he blamed squarely on the stress induced by his parents, he vowed to exact revenge, and the extermination plan began to germinate in what already was a detached and unbalanced mind.
-
He was going to buy her off, with the promise of managing a wine bar in a fashionable area of London. The tragic irony was June had the money to set her son up in such an establishment whilst she was still alive. However, Nevill was insistent that his son would only inherit his estate should he be performing the farming function at the time of his death. Jeremy hurried the clock on somewhat.
As for Julie, her conscience was pricked. One can't exactly deduce what transpired between them both post-massacre, but it became apparent to her following the weekend spent with Colin and the dinner at Blazer's Restaurant, Blackheath that there was some psychological condition afflicting him. Maybe he could never have held down a job permanently, as evidenced by his comment that perhaps he should join cousin Roly in some far-flung Buddist monastery, the excitement of the chase the motivator rather than the sexual act itself. In any event, the break up was inevitable at some point, one feels, and the truth would out, though from which party first will remain moot.
His Valium intake post massacre may have not been for show, he may have been shocked by what he had actually done. To kill two little boys in their beds etc, that's got to weigh on the mind heavily etc, especially when in the immediate aftermath you are often in the boys fathers company. He was essentially if you believe him guilty living a lie in that month period before arrest.
He is still living a lie 40 years on many think.
-
He did, but the farm had been a bane ever since childhood, returning to that desolate landscape after incarceration at that other alien environment, Gresham's School. No wonder the alienation increased year on year, as those intimate strangers at White House Farm became ever distant, to the point he could endure no more. Following the Suzette break up and the miscarriages, which he blamed squarely on the stress induced by his parents, he vowed to exact revenge, and the extermination plan began to germinate in what already was a detached and unbalanced mind.
He didn't, he signed a form giving AE full access.
-
He did, but the farm had been a bane ever since childhood, returning to that desolate landscape after incarceration at that other alien environment, Gresham's School. No wonder the alienation increased year on year, as those intimate strangers at White House Farm became ever distant, to the point he could endure no more. Following the Suzette break up and the miscarriages, which he blamed squarely on the stress induced by his parents, he vowed to exact revenge, and the extermination plan began to germinate in what already was a detached and unbalanced mind.
Often wonder how much thought he gave AE and Co and what they may do prior the massacre to be honest. What he thought theyre reaction may be.
-
He didn't, he signed a form giving AE full access.
Sorry, I misread. He closed himself off to White House Farm as it wasn't bricks and mortar he could sell and he just wanted rid of the memory. So different from the blissful childhood he claims to have experienced to any gullible listener he encounters.
-
His Valium intake post massacre may have not been for show, he may have been shocked by what he had actually done. To kill two little boys in their beds etc, that's got to weigh on the mind heavily etc, especially when in the immediate aftermath you are often in the boys fathers company. He was essentially if you believe him guilty living a lie in that month period before arrest.
He is still living a lie 40 years on many think.
Some good points.
-
The relatives may have still been suspicious if Sheila was a fully fit woman. As Nevill was so big and powerful & June was a fully fit woman.
Sheila being so drowsy & lethargic on tbe night, Bamber would have considered an advantage for him inside WHF.
It was then about convincing the police from 3.26am onwards. No one contradicting what he was saying until days afterwards.
-
The relatives may have still been suspicious if Sheila was a fully fit woman. As Nevill was so big and powerful.
That's been an problem for Jeremy Bamber for over 40 years. I must admit when I first saw the Nevill situation my immediate reaction was " A bloke had to have done this "
-
Bamber would have been confident when speaking to the police early on. His 'loony' phrases were wrong but it was the 80's.
He had told Julie 'everything is going well' & rang Chelmsford Police when he was ready. He would be relieved he got out of WHF without injury. Nevill's resistance and Sheila's 2 shots had not sunk in.
He was not so confident a few weeks later.
Kristel Candelario was confident when giving the police her narrative at home. Speaking fluent English. After her arrest she was not so confident and wanted everything translated!
-
Bamber would have been confident when speaking to the police early on. His 'loony' phrases were wrong but it was the 80's.
He was not so confident a few weeks later
I tend to on the whole disagree with that although evidence exists her was a little frightened in the call to Michael deckers, he for me remained fairly cool calm and confident. Steadfast in his denial and sources say he was confident of an aquittal.
Stan himself even refenced it was like a " Mental chess game " interviewing Bamber and admitted he struggled to find a chink in the armour.
-
I tend to on the whole disagree with that although evidence exists her was a little frightened in the call to Michael deckers, he for me remained fairly cool calm and confident. Steadfast in his denial and sources say he was confident of an aquittal.
Stan himself even refenced it was like a " Mental chess game " interviewing Bamber and admitted he struggled to find a chink in the armour.
He would be less confident after his arrest. As he would know the police & Julie were not on his side anymore.
Appreciate he dug in.
-
He would be less confident after his arrest. As he would know the police & Julie were not on his side anymore.
Appreciate he dug in.
Believe as we have both pointed out, he was riding heavily on the scapegoat having the mental health factor.
His WS on 7th and 8th August go into detail of Shelias predicament and he basically gives a life story on Shelia giving key dates etc. So he had some good understanding of it. Even if brother and sister were not close.
-
Bamber would have been confident when speaking to the police early on.
Booking appointments, swanning around, heavy drinking sessions did him no favours in people's eyes.
-
He was going to buy her off, with the promise of managing a wine bar in a fashionable area of London. The tragic irony was June had the money to set her son up in such an establishment whilst she was still alive. However, Nevill was insistent that his son would only inherit his estate should he be performing the farming function at the time of his death. Jeremy hurried the clock on somewhat.
As for Julie, her conscience was pricked. One can't exactly deduce what transpired between them both post-massacre, but it became apparent to her following the weekend spent with Colin and the dinner at Blazer's Restaurant, Blackheath that there was some psychological condition afflicting him. Maybe he could never have held down a job permanently, as evidenced by his comment that perhaps he should join cousin Roly in some far-flung Buddist monastery, at home the excitement of the chase the motivator rather than the sexual act itself. In any event, the break up was inevitable at some point, one feels, and the truth would out, though from which party first will remain moot.
Cousin Roly with wife Clare, though I'm unsure as to the date of the photograph: https://www.flickr.com/photos/49171558@N05/4510653574
-
Cousin Roly with wife Clare, though I'm unsure as to the date of the photograph: https://www.flickr.com/photos/49171558@N05/4510653574
Think he worked on WHF for a while but was kicked out by Nevill who got fed up with the cannabis use. ( he found him alternative employment)
-
Think he worked on WHF for a while but was kicked out by Nevill who got fed up with the cannabis use. ( he found him alternative employment)
..and how different things might have been had Nevill been consistent and terminated his son's employment alongside. Always beholden to June in that regard, whose land he was tilling, his sole outlet for emotional relief being neighbouring land owner John Seward, who noted him in tears as to Jeremy's antics. Upon asking why he didn't just throw him out Nevill replied: "June wouldn't let me."
If only they had had a connection with their son, if they had known what was germinating in his mind: the failure to bond initially with either parent, then the banishment to Gresham's, the employment at Sloppy Joe's, the break-up of his relationship with Suzette under threat of inheritance, then his attempt at escape with the round the world trips and the catering job at Rivenhall End, all leading to a blind alley of despair as he saw no exit from White House Farm but the one he chose, allowing him a few more hedonistic weeks before it all caught up with him, the destruction of five lives and the inevitable incarceration which ensued.
-
..and how different things might have been had Nevill been consistent and terminated his son's employment alongside. Always beholden to June in that regard, whose land he was tilling, his sole outlet for emotional relief being neighbouring land owner John Seward, who noted him in tears as to Jeremy's antics. Upon asking why he didn't just throw him out Nevill replied: "June wouldn't let me."
If only they had had a connection with their son, if they had known what was germinating in his mind: the failure to bond initially with either parent, then the banishment to Gresham's, the employment at Sloppy Joe's, the break-up of his relationship with Suzette under threat of inheritance, then his attempt at escape with the round the world trips and the catering job at Rivenhall End, all leading to a blind alley of despair as he saw no exit from White House Farm but the one he chose, allowing him a few more hedonistic weeks before it all caught up with him, the destruction of five lives and the inevitable incarceration which ensued.
I don't believe Jeremy was ever a workshy inidividual he just wanted to be the gaffer and do it on his terms.
It's part of his make up.
-
I don't believe Jeremy was ever a workshy inidividual he just wanted to be the gaffer and do it on his terms.
It's part of his make up.
Point taken, but he didn't have the nous of Nevill, who had worked his way up from the bottom, attended agricultural college and demonstrated the Midas touch in crop selection. I doubt Jeremy could have matched his prowess; he dabbled in various outlets, always looking for the shortcuts and rarely following through.
It reminds me of the Queen lyrics: I want it all and I want it now.
-
Point taken, but he didn't have the nous of Nevill, who had worked his way up from the bottom, attended agricultural college and demonstrated the Midas touch in crop selection. I doubt Jeremy could have matched his prowess; he dabbled in various outlets, always looking for the shortcuts and rarely following through.
It reminds me of the Queen lyrics: I want it all and I want it now.
This is the core problem, Nevill wanted a mini Nevill.
He got a Jeremy.
-
I personally don't believe his adoption stung him though at the material time in question or throughout his adolsecene. The bastard jibes did at school but that is part and parcel of growing upm we've all been victims of bullying to varying degrees in our school days.
Believe post conviction is when his adoption circumstances began to hurt. He had the time to reflect.
-
..and how different things might have been had Nevill been consistent and terminated his son's employment alongside. Always beholden to June in that regard, whose land he was tilling, his sole outlet for emotional relief being neighbouring land owner John Seward, who noted him in tears as to Jeremy's antics. Upon asking why he didn't just throw him out Nevill replied: "June wouldn't let me."
If only they had had a connection with their son, if they had known what was germinating in his mind: the failure to bond initially with either parent, then the banishment to Gresham's, the employment at Sloppy Joe's, the break-up of his relationship with Suzette under threat of inheritance, then his attempt at escape with the round the world trips and the catering job at Rivenhall End, all leading to a blind alley of despair as he saw no exit from White House Farm but the one he chose, allowing him a few more hedonistic weeks before it all caught up with him, the destruction of five lives and the inevitable incarceration which ensued.
Believe Shelia took up most of their time and direction to be honest.
-
I personally don't believe his adoption stung him though at the material time in question or throughout his adolsecene. The bastard jibes did at school but that is part and parcel of growing upm we've all been victims of bullying to varying degrees in our school days.
Believe post conviction is when his adoption circumstances began to hurt. He had the time to reflect.
An incisive post. I agree as long as the money was flowing and not much was expected of him he appeared reasonably content. Some of the remarks pre-massacre were cause for concern, quite apart from the diablerie conveyed to Julie re the murder plan. There was his desire to burgle an Arab's house, as related to Liz Rimington, his shooting of ducks on the farm with a 12 bore, his growing cannabis to feed a drugs habit and provide extra income, as well as the Osea Road burglary, which demonstrated utter contempt for his parents and their way of life.
-
Believe Shelia took up most of their time and direction to be honest.
They took their eye off the ball. Were they determined to find the right match for their son following the disaster (as they saw it) of an weed-smoking unemployed potter as son-in-law, who used the "f" word and put their daughter in the family way? Only later, when they saw the progeny, did they realize there was another façon de vivre, and tragically for them in trying to make amends in past parenting inadequacies it was Jeremy who couldn't help but compare how he had been treated with how Nicholas and Daniel were being favoritized. This coupled with how Jeremy perceived Nevill and June had treated Suzette set the wheels in motion for his dastardly plan, as he told Julie: "For the way my parents have treated me they have forfeited the right to live."
-
Point taken, but he didn't have the nous of Nevill, who had worked his way up from the bottom, attended agricultural college and demonstrated the Midas touch in crop selection. I doubt Jeremy could have matched his prowess; he dabbled in various outlets, always looking for the shortcuts and rarely following through.
It reminds me of the Queen lyrics: I want it all and I want it now.
All jokes aside I believe Jeremy would have made a good career in sales.
-
They took their eye off the ball. Were they determined to find the right match for their son following the disaster (as they saw it) of an weed-smoking unemployed potter as son-in-law, who used the "f" word and put their daughter in the family way? Only later, when they saw the progeny, did they realize there was another façon de vivre, and tragically for them in trying to make amends in past parenting inadequacies it was Jeremy who couldn't help but compare how he had been treated with how Nicholas and Daniel were being favoritized. This coupled with how Jeremy perceived Nevill and June had treated Suzette set the wheels in motion for his dastardly plan, as he told Julie: "For the way my parents have treated me they have forfeited the right to live."
Speaking as a father of a daughter, she is my angel, she can do no wrong in my eyes, I think the same applied to Nevill and Shelia hence the two had such a close relationship. I freely admit I am much stricter with my son. It is something that most fathers can relate to. Believe NB and JB although having a, good relationship at some point he wasn't able to get away with things as much as Shelia was. Coupled with what was expected of him. As Jane has pointed out in the past the sibling jealousy rivilary aspect. Don't believe Jeremy was ever jealous of Shelia. He just didn't get an easier ride.
Having said that both children were the same, they both relied on the parents even in their 20s, everything Jeremmy and Shelia had came from the bank of June and Nevill.
I think both resented deep down having to rely on their parents although both readily accepted because they couldnt make it alone.
-
I don't believe he got Sheila to shoot herself. She would have to be hypnotized for that.
However she was drowsy enough to believe he could shoot her in his chosen neck position without any resistance. Meaning he could kill her with one shot.
He did achieve all of this, but she was not going to die instantly. He made the decision to shoot her again. He did not know the first shot would eventually kill her. The multiple shots required on everyone else, he would believe the police would believe Sheila could have shot herself twice.
-
I don't believe he got Sheila to shoot herself. She would have to be hypnotized for that.
However she was drowsy enough to believe he could shoot her in his chosen neck position without any resistance. Meaning he could kill her with one shot.
He did achieve all of this, but she was not going to die instantly. He made the decision to shoot her again. He did not know the first shot would eventually kill her. The multiple shots required on everyone else, he would believe the police would believe Sheila could have shot herself twice.
A two shot suicide looks dodgy to simply put it. Even though Vanesiz said it wasn't unheard of.
It was this detail that automatically got DS Jones suspcious.
For me, he must have done it impulsively. Time was on his side.
-
He had chosen the neck/under chin location shot beforehand. Even when the first shot did not kill her instantly, the second shot was next the first.
Believe he woke her and lead her into the bedroom. Or carried her. It was only a few yards.
-
He had chosen the neck/under chin location shot beforehand. Even when the first shot did not kill her instantly, the second shot was next the first.
Believe he woke her and lead her into the bedroom. Or carried her. It was only a few yards.
He shot the second time in haste.
Probably has spent many nights in a cell reflecting over the fact who knows.
-
He shot the second time in haste.
Probably has spent many nights in a cell reflecting over the fact who knows.
It was in haste and in the same location. Must have done some research on the most effective place to shoot someone.
-
He couldn't get Sheila to shoot herself. The rifle with silencer was too long.
He would want Sheila dead with the minimum of resistance. So would shoot her himself.
With the rifle on her, impossible to tell if she shot herself or was shot. So no benefit in getting her to shoot herself. But a lot more difficult.
-
He couldn't get Sheila to shoot herself. The rifle with silencer was too long.
He would want Sheila dead with the minimum of resistance. So would shoot her himself.
With the rifle on her, impossible to tell if she shot herself or was shot. So no benefit in getting her to shoot herself. But a lot more difficult.
Why is this a problem? All he has to do is remove the silencer place it beside her etc.
-
We are all different and of course we are looking at this from the outside and with the benefit of hindsight.
If I was Bamber, I would have been thinking to put it blunt.
" Fuck sake I shot her twice "
" Fuck sake, I went to town on dad, I went overboard with him more than I should, will they believe Shelia did this?
By that time though he had done what he had done. He also got a favourable result with the pathologist who said that two shot suicides are not common but not unheard of.
-
He couldn't get Sheila to shoot herself. The rifle with silencer was too long
He could use persuasion or threats, I don't believe he personally did though.
-
Why is this a problem? All he has to do is remove the silencer place it beside her etc.
I would have wanted that silencer gone off the scene.
Pretty shocked he didn't in the very least clean it.
-
Can only imagine he may have thought that it would have looked suspcious if it had been discovered missing had they done a thorough investigation. Remember he had no idea how it would all plan out. Before 1985 he had never been arrested, let alone committed x5 murder and then tried to trick the police.
Bamber although may have done some petty things wasn't a master criminal and had no prior police involvement He was a posh boy farmer.
-
Believe EP think he only realised the rifle with silencer was too long for Sheila after he had shot her & during the staging.
He then took the silencer off & put it away when he went downstairs.
If he had known beforehand, he certainly did not try to persuade Sheila to shoot herself. He just shot her with silencer attached.
-
Everyone else had been shot with silencer attached. So Sheila would be no different.
CAL/EP believe Sheila woke mid massacre & froze. Giving him the option of shooting Sheila. In this situation he certainly did not take the silencer off beforehand as he had to act instantly.
-
Believe EP think he only realised the rifle with silencer was too long for Sheila after he had shot her & during the staging.
He then took the silencer off & put it away when he went downstairs.
If he had known beforehand, he certainly did not try to persuade Sheila to shoot herself. He just shot her with silencer attached.
Possibly.
Depends on how much research he had done. He had used the rifle before and of course he knew Shelias height.
Shelia was above average height for a woman, believe she was 5 7, 58
-
Everyone else had been shot with silencer attached. So Sheila would be no different.
CAL/EP believe Sheila woke mid massacre & froze. Giving him the option of shooting Sheila. In this situation he certainly did not take the silencer off beforehand as he had to act instantly.
It was different in the sense that Shelia was his intended scapegoat so he would be aiming for one shot to replicate a suicide.
With the others he could go to town on, however I believe he regretted the Nevill overkill.
-
It was different in the sense that Shelia was his intended scapegoat so he would be aiming for one shot to replicate a suicide.
With the others he could go to town on, however I believe he regretted the Nevill overkill.
Surely most overkill was with the boys, ILB? Or do you mean the beating that Nevill received?
-
Surely most overkill was with the boys, ILB? Or do you mean the beating that Nevill received?
I mean the Nevill overkill snow.
Shelias height and weight disadvantage to Nevill has plauged Jeremy Bamber for 40 years. Officially anyhow.
-
Surely most overkill was with the boys, ILB? Or do you mean the beating that Nevill received?
The pathologist report details Nevill's vast and horrific injuries.
-
The pathologist report details Nevill's vast and horrific injuries.
I'll take another look, Adam.
-
The pathologist report details Nevill's vast and horrific injuries.
Well apart from the bullet wounds he had blows to his face/head, shoulders and arms, Adam.
Some probably with the butt, some with the barrel!
-
Well apart from the bullet wounds he had blows to his face/head, shoulders and arms, Adam.
Some probably with the butt, some with the barrel!
Will do a detailed breakdown.
Appreciate supporters try to play it down. Saying there was no fight, it was juat a scuffle or Nevill collapsed upon kitchen arrival & Sheila got June to help move Nevill into different positions for Sheila to hit him in the different locations.
-
Breakdown of Nevill's injuries -
Blood on right hand.
Blood on left lower leg.
Blood on foot.
Blood on face.
Grazed elbow.
Bruised elbow.
Bruising to both eyes.
Swelling to both eyes.
Severe fractures to skull.
Lacerations on eyebrow.
Fracture to frontal face bone.
Lacerations to nose.
Bruising to nose.
Grazing to nose.
Bruising to forehead.
Severe bruising to both cheekbones.
Severe bruising to temples.
Abrasions to cheeks.
Deformed left side of face.
Fractures to lower jaw.
Bruised ear.
Lacerations to top of head.
Bruising to top of head.
Loss of skin to right hand.
Collection of bruises on forearms.
Bruised elbow.
Bruised wrist.
Bruising to forearms.
-
Will do a detailed breakdown.
Appreciate supporters try to play it down. Saying there was no fight, it was juat a scuffle or Nevill collapsed upon kitchen arrival & Sheila got June to help move Nevill into different positions for Sheila to hit him in the different locations.
But it is mostly head and arms, Adam, blood on foot means blood ran down onto his foot, not that he was injured on the foot!
-
Breakdown of Nevill's injuries -
Blood on right hand.
Blood on left lower leg.
Blood on foot.
Blood on face.
Grazed elbow.
Bruised elbow.
Bruising to both eyes.
Swelling to both eyes.
Severe fractures to skull.
Lacerations on eyebrow.
Fracture to frontal face bone.
Lacerations to nose.
Bruising to nose.
Grazing to nose.
Bruising to forehead.
Severe bruising to both cheekbones.
Severe bruising to temples.
Abrasions to cheeks.
Deformed left side of face.
Fractures to lower jaw.
Bruised ear.
Lacerations to top of head.
Bruising to top of head.
Loss of skin to right hand.
Collection of bruises on forearms.
Bruised elbow.
Bruised wrist.
Bruising to forearms.
Here's something for you to check up on, Adam, bruising to the body after death!
Why you may ask?
Well bruising doesn't occurr in a few minutes, does it? And Nevill was probably beaten and killed soon after he reached the kitchen, right?
Well it seems that the bruising process stops after death due to the lack of blood flow and tissue response, so why was Nevills face and forehead so visibly bruised if he died soon after the beating?
He even had two black eyes!
Ever had a broken nose, Adam? I have, and it wasn't until the day after that my eyes turned blue, or bruising under the eyes I should say!
Anyway, what I am getting at is, does the amount of pronounced bruising to Nevills face point to the injuries being inflicted hours earlier in order for the bruises to form before death?
What do you say to that , Adam?
Was Nevill smashed in the face several hours before death resulting in him lying against the Aga?
-
Here's something for you to check up on, Adam, bruising to the body after death!
Why you may ask?
Well bruising doesn't occurr in a few minutes, does it? And Nevill was probably beaten and killed soon after he reached the kitchen, right?
Well it seems that the bruising process stops after death due to the lack of blood flow and tissue response, so why was Nevills face and forehead so visibly bruised if he died soon after the beating?
He even had two black eyes!
Ever had a broken nose, Adam? I have, and it wasn't until the day after that my eyes turned blue, or bruising under the eyes I should say!
Anyway, what I am getting at is, does the amount of pronounced bruising to Nevills face point to the injuries being inflicted hours earlier in order for the bruises to form before death?
What do you say to that , Adam?
Was Nevill smashed in the face several hours before death resulting in him lying against the Aga?
That reminds me: I should think twice about retiring to Ecuador. I hope you're in a safe space now, snow66!
-
Here's something for you to check up on, Adam, bruising to the body after death!
Why you may ask?
Well bruising doesn't occurr in a few minutes, does it? And Nevill was probably beaten and killed soon after he reached the kitchen, right?
Well it seems that the bruising process stops after death due to the lack of blood flow and tissue response, so why was Nevills face and forehead so visibly bruised if he died soon after the beating?
He even had two black eyes!
Ever had a broken nose, Adam? I have, and it wasn't until the day after that my eyes turned blue, or bruising under the eyes I should say!
Anyway, what I am getting at is, does the amount of pronounced bruising to Nevills face point to the injuries being inflicted hours earlier in order for the bruises to form before death?
What do you say to that , Adam?
Was Nevill smashed in the face several hours before death resulting in him lying against the Aga?
Perhaps Nevill was on blood thinners? It's also recognized that as one ages, one bruises more readily. Your last sentence makes absolutely no sense.
-
Breakdown of Nevill's injuries -
Blood on right hand.
Blood on left lower leg.
Blood on foot.
Blood on face.
Grazed elbow.
Bruised elbow.
Bruising to both eyes.
Swelling to both eyes.
Severe fractures to skull.
Lacerations on eyebrow.
Fracture to frontal face bone.
Lacerations to nose.
Bruising to nose.
Grazing to nose.
Bruising to forehead.
Severe bruising to both cheekbones.
Severe bruising to temples.
Abrasions to cheeks.
Deformed left side of face.
Fractures to lower jaw.
Bruised ear.
Lacerations to top of head.
Bruising to top of head.
Loss of skin to right hand.
Collection of bruises on forearms.
Bruised elbow.
Bruised wrist.
Bruising to forearms.
It was a brutal beating.
-
That reminds me: I should think twice about retiring to Ecuador. I hope you're in a safe space now, snow66!
Whats going on in Ecuador, Steve?
I've no intention of moving from the UK when I retire.
-
Perhaps Nevill was on blood thinners? It's also recognized that as one ages, one bruises more readily. Your last sentence makes absolutely no sense.
Well i'm no medical expert, Jane, only pointing out what I read.
Why doesn't the last sentence make sense? You know my Aga scenario!
-
Whats going on in Ecuador, Steve?
I've no intention of moving from the UK when I retire.
Well, I'm looking at this video, though admittedly they're all a lot younger than I am: https://youtu.be/SHF7o7icyPA
-
Well, I'm looking at this video, though admittedly they're all a lot younger than I am: https://youtu.be/SHF7o7icyPA
Do you frequently look at videos from all over the world to help you decide where to retire, Steve?
Are you still working at the moment?
-
Do you frequently look at videos from all over the world to help you decide where to retire, Steve?
Are you still working at the moment?
Yes, I'm still working. Undecided on where to retire.
-
Well i'm no medical expert, Jane, only pointing out what I read.
Why doesn't the last sentence make sense? You know my Aga scenario!
I fail to see how having "his face smashed several hours before death" equates "in him lying against the Aga".
-
I fail to see how having "his face smashed several hours before death" equates "in him lying against the Aga".
Well its quite simple, Jane, if the Aga burned Nevills back I am trying to determine just when this happened, and I am hoping that the pathology reports may help. ie., can it be proven that any of Nevills injuries occurred several hours before he died.
If so, it may point to an injured Nevill lying against the Aga hours before he was shot and killed.
I think the CT should request all of Nevills medical reports and x-rays for an expert to examine, they should examine every possibility and scenario, not just Nevill being moved from the Aga to the chair/scuttle by the police after entry! What the heck do they have to lose?
-
Yes, I'm still working. Undecided on where to retire.
Yes, i've seen you're thread on prospective retirement, Steve!
-
Well its quite simple, Jane, if the Aga burned Nevills back I am trying to determine just when this happened, and I am hoping that the pathology reports may help. ie., can it be proven that any of Nevills injuries occurred several hours before he died.
If so, it may point to an injured Nevill lying against the Aga hours before he was shot and killed.
I think the CT should request all of Nevills medical reports and x-rays for an expert to examine, they should examine every possibility and scenario, not just Nevill being moved from the Aga to the chair/scuttle by the police after entry! What the heck do they have to lose?
So having previously had his face smashed beyond recognition, one assumes there to have been copious blood loss, and as blood doesn't run upwards, his neck and pyjama jacket are the places most likely to have been soaked. I don't recall such being so.
If we look at what you suggest, IF he'd been moved from Aga to chair, he must have been alive because of the blood flow around/down the coal skuttle. Do you think they'd have left him to die like that? It's already been suggested that police shot June and Sheila.
-
So having previously had his face smashed beyond recognition, one assumes there to have been copious blood loss, and as blood doesn't run upwards, his neck and pyjama jacket are the places most likely to have been soaked. I don't recall such being so.
If we look at what you suggest, IF he'd been moved from Aga to chair, he must have been alive because of the blood flow around/down the coal skuttle. Do you think they'd have left him to die like that? It's already been suggested that police shot June and Sheila.
It was the two bullets to the jaw that disfiguered Nevills face and caused bleeding, Jane!
But! the initial beating may have indeed been when Nevill received most of his other facial injuries, as well as the fractured skull.
Now here's the thing, when I had my nose broken it didn't bleed much at all apart from literally a few drops, nothing more, but it was knocked over to one side. And here's the funny thing, it almost set in that position right away! I went to the local hospital that night and the nurse took hold of it and it was set fast, so she said to go to my GP and see about it, but I never did, and the next day I had two black eyes!
Talking of bleeding, there was another time when I shot a nail through my finger with a nail gun, and again there was no blood loss! The nail went in at one side and out the other, sealing up each side instantaneously. I had to go to A&E with that one, and a doctor pulled it out with a pliers, only then did the finger bleed quite a bit.
Of course bullet wounds never seal themself, but I did read that its often better to leave a knife or other sharp object insitu for fear of further bleeding and damage removing it.
Anyway, the point is, from experience I believe that Nevill could have sustained quite serious head and facial injuries with minimal blood loss, so blood soaked pyjamas were not inevitable, Jane!
And yes, I believe that Nevill was alive while lying against the Aga with no bullet wounds at that time and got up again by himself before ending up on the chair/scuttle after being shot!
-
It was the two bullets to the jaw that disfiguered Nevills face and caused bleeding, Jane!
But! the initial beating may have indeed been when Nevill received most of his other facial injuries, as well as the fractured skull.
Now here's the thing, when I had my nose broken it didn't bleed much at all apart from literally a few drops, nothing more, but it was knocked over to one side. And here's the funny thing, it almost set in that position right away! I went to the local hospital that night and the nurse took hold of it and it was set fast, so she said to go to my GP and see about it, but I never did, and the next day I had two black eyes!
Talking of bleeding, there was another time when I shot a nail through my finger with a nail gun, and again there was no blood loss! The nail went in at one side and out the other, sealing up each side instantaneously. I had to go to A&E with that one, and a doctor pulled it out with a pliers, only then did the finger bleed quite a bit.
Of course bullet wounds never seal themself, but I did read that its often better to leave a knife or other sharp object insitu for fear of further bleeding and damage removing it.
Anyway, the point is, from experience I believe that Nevill could have sustained quite serious head and facial injuries with minimal blood loss, so blood soaked pyjamas were not inevitable, Jane!
And yes, I believe that Nevill was alive while lying against the Aga with no bullet wounds at that time and got up again by himself before ending up on the chair/scuttle after being shot!
I'm squeamish at the best of times. I do hope you're taking better care of yourself these days.
-
I'm squeamish at the best of times. I do hope you're taking better care of yourself these days.
Ha ha, dont worry Steve, both injuries were accidental! my nose wasn't broken with a fist, i'm not a trouble maker.
But!! I have needed two new hips in recent years! a great success though, all pain is gone.
Are you in reasonable health, Steve?
-
It was the two bullets to the jaw that disfiguered Nevills face and caused bleeding, Jane!
But! the initial beating may have indeed been when Nevill received most of his other facial injuries, as well as the fractured skull.
Now here's the thing, when I had my nose broken it didn't bleed much at all apart from literally a few drops, nothing more, but it was knocked over to one side. And here's the funny thing, it almost set in that position right away! I went to the local hospital that night and the nurse took hold of it and it was set fast, so she said to go to my GP and see about it, but I never did, and the next day I had two black eyes!
Talking of bleeding, there was another time when I shot a nail through my finger with a nail gun, and again there was no blood loss! The nail went in at one side and out the other, sealing up each side instantaneously. I had to go to A&E with that one, and a doctor pulled it out with a pliers, only then did the finger bleed quite a bit.
Of course bullet wounds never seal themself, but I did read that its often better to leave a knife or other sharp object insitu for fear of further bleeding and damage removing it.
Anyway, the point is, from experience I believe that Nevill could have sustained quite serious head and facial injuries with minimal blood loss, so blood soaked pyjamas were not inevitable, Jane!
And yes, I believe that Nevill was alive while lying against the Aga with no bullet wounds at that time and got up again by himself before ending up on the chair/scuttle after being shot!
I'll counter that! When my nose was broken, it bled for England!. I can confirm that knives are best left in situ to prevent bleeding out. I was fully aware that he'd sustained serious facial/maxilla wounds, ie his jaw bone was smashed/removed? I doubt that to have been a bloodless wound, the evidence of which would have been on his pyjamas. A blow to the head -hard enough to knock him out/cause concussion/fracture his skull- may well have contributed to his black eyes.
-
Ha ha, dont worry Steve, both injuries were accidental! my nose wasn't broken with a fist, i'm not a trouble maker.
But!! I have needed two new hips in recent years! a great success though, all pain is gone.
Are you in reasonable health, Steve?
Yes, for my age. I might need root canal in the next few weeks, but apart from that I'm perfectly fit and healthy.
-
I'll counter that! When my nose was broken, it bled for England!. I can confirm that knives are best left in situ to prevent bleeding out. I was fully aware that he'd sustained serious facial/maxilla wounds, ie his jaw bone was smashed/removed? I doubt that to have been a bloodless wound, the evidence of which would have been on his pyjamas. A blow to the head -hard enough to knock him out/cause concussion/fracture his skull- may well have contributed to his black eyes.
Have you really had a broken nose, Jane, if so, I trust it was also accidental?
Regarding the two face shots, I thought I had made it clear that I believe Nevill had sustained no gun shot wounds while lying against the Aga! so again, no bleeding onto the pyjamas!
-
Did we ever get to the bottom of what made the burn marks on Nevill's back? Until something definitive is established such as an electronic cattle prod, a poker or one of Sheila's cigars the Aga knob theory will continue to be advanced.
-
Did we ever get to the bottom of what made the burn marks on Nevill's back? Until something definitive is established such as an electronic cattle prod, a poker or one of Sheila's cigars the Aga knob theory will continue to be advanced.
For me they were not made from Jeremy Bamber doing a sign of life check.
-
Yes, for my age. I might need root canal in the next few weeks, but apart from that I'm perfectly fit and healthy.
Good good, Steve!
Hopefully you will have a long and happy retirement when it comes, once you decide where to settle down that is!
-
For me they were not made from Jeremy Bamber doing a sign of life check.
After inflicting the above injuries & shooting him 4-8 times, burning his back 3 times as torture is strange. Nevill was either unconcious or dead.
Burning his back 3 times as torture is not exactly Gerald Butler in Law Abiding Citizen.
-
After inflicting the above injuries & shooting him 4-8 times, burning his back 3 times as torture is strange. Nevill was either unconcious or dead.
Burning his back 3 times as torture is not exactly Gerald Butler in Law Abiding Citizen.
A simple pulse check suffices.
Why not do a check on June Nicholas and Daniel?
There is nothing concrete pointing to those burns been inflicted 7.8.85
You know this.
-
After inflicting the above injuries & shooting him 4-8 times, burning his back 3 times as torture is strange. Nevill was either unconcious or dead.
Jeremy is convicted of murdering 5 family members in cold blood after working an exhausting 14 hour shift.
We've no idea of the dynamic between JB and Nevill, evidence suggests they had a warm relation ship once upon a, time but Nevill was not just his adoptive father, he was his boss. And dictated to him.
-
A simple pulse check suffices.
Why not do a check on June Nicholas and Daniel?
There is nothing concrete pointing to those burns been inflicted 7.8.85
You know this.
A pulse check is an option. The evidence is he burnt his back to check for signs of life. He may have also done a pulse check.
Do you think he stopped his staging to burn an unconcious or dead Nevill 3 times as torture? He had just shot him 4-8 times and inflicted multiple horrific injuries to him.
-
A pulse check is an option. The evidence is he burnt his back to check for signs of life. He may have also done a pulse check.
Do you think he stopped his staging to burn an unconcious or dead Nevill 3 times as torture? He had just shot him 4-8 times and inflicted multiple horrific injuries to him.
The evidence is three circular burns were discovered on Nevill Bambers back.
Vanesziz said he wasn't sure when they had occured.
-
A pulse check is an option. The evidence is he burnt his back to check for signs of life. He may have also done a pulse check.
Do you think he stopped his staging to burn an unconcious or dead Nevill 3 times as torture? He had just shot him 4-8 times and inflicted multiple horrific injuries to him.
I am not Jeremy Bamber, I don't know what his pysche or motivations was in 1985.
-
The evidence is three circular burns were discovered on Nevill Bambers back.
Vanesziz said he wasn't sure when they had occured.
Do you believe if inflicted on the massacre night, it was torture?
Seems strange he would divert from his mission just to inflict 3 burn marks. Nevill was already unconcious/dead & he had already been shot & struck multiple times.
-
Do you believe if inflicted on the massacre night, it was torture?
Seems strange he would divert from his mission just to inflict 3 burn marks. Nevill was already unconcious/dead & he had already been shot & struck multiple times.
Thats why accidental unplanned Aga burns make so much sense, Adam!
You know this my boy!
-
The evidence is three circular burns were discovered on Nevill Bambers back.
Vanesziz said he wasn't sure when they had occured.
The other suggestions have been -
They were not burn marks but internal screws. The experts were wrong.
They are old war wounds.
Nevill lay against an aga door.
----------
Do you agree with any of these?
-
The other suggestions have been -
They were not burn marks but internal screws. The experts were wrong.
They are old war wounds.
Nevill lay against an aga door.
----------
Do you agree with any of these?
In fairness as I have previously said if the burns had occured pre massacre I would have expected Jeremy Bamber to be able to be able to clarify their origin as no doubt he would have seen them at some point in his lifetime and Nevill would have told him about them.
-
Do you believe if inflicted on the massacre night, it was torture?
Seems strange he would divert from his mission just to inflict 3 burn marks. Nevill was already unconcious/dead & he had already been shot & struck multiple times.
We're not Bamber.
Although money was certainly a factor hatred was as well.
The guy he burned was not just his dad, he was also his boss, he was the guy who made him work the 14 hour gruelling days and dictated to him on a daily basis. He may have been angered by the resistance.
I'm not ruling out the signs of life test anything is possible I just don't believe they came from that.
-
In fairness as I have previously said if the burns had occured pre massacre I would have expected Jeremy Bamber to be able to be able to clarify their origin as no doubt he would have seen them at some point in his lifetime and Nevill would have told him about them.
His 2012 & 2021 CCRC applications have said they were inflicted on the massacre.
Firstly by Sheila with rifle minus silencer. Then by Nevill laying on the aga door.
-
If they were old war wounds/burns they must have been pretty bad 40 years ago to still be so visible in 1985.
-
His 2012 & 2021 CCRC applications have said they were inflicted on the massacre.
Firstly by Sheila with rifle minus silencer. Then by Nevill laying on the aga door.
I was meaning if they had happened before he would have possibly been able to account for them in 1985.
-
Never understood the torture theory.
Torture is done to people alive for long periods. Sometimes to get information from people.
Spending 10 seconds burning a knocked out/dead Nevill cannot be classed as torture
-
Never understood the torture theory.
Torture is done to people alive for long periods. Sometimes to get information from people.
Spending 10 seconds burning a knocked out/dead Nevill cannot be classed as torture
I have never understood the " Sign of life test " I was taught to check pulses in rudimentary first aid in the cadets in the early eighties t is basic knowledge.
Again why no test on June and the boys?
-
I have never understood the " Sign of life test " I was taught to check pulses in rudimentary first aid in the cadets in the early eighties t is basic knowledge.
Again why no test on June and the boys?
He couldn't burn anyone upstairs. The heated instrument would not stay hot for long enough.
Nevill had also put up a huge struggle, so good to make sure.
-
I have never understood the " Sign of life test " I was taught to check pulses in rudimentary first aid in the cadets in the early eighties t is basic knowledge.
Again why no test on June and the boys?
Do you agree spending 10 seconds putting 3 burn marks on a knocked out/dead person cannot be classed as 'torture'?
Agree a pulse check is an option. He may have done that but not been sure if he could feel a pulse. So burnt Nevill as well.
All the evidence shows is Bamber burnt Nevill.
-
He couldn't burn anyone upstairs. The heated instrument would not stay hot for long enough.
Nevill had also put up a huge struggle, so good to make sure.
As said all open ended and nothing conclusive.
-
Do you agree spending 10 seconds putting 3 burn marks on a knocked out/dead person cannot be classed as 'torture'?
Agree a pulse check is an option. He may have done that but not been sure if he could feel a pulse. So burnt Nevill as well.
All the evidence shows is Bamber burnt Nevill.
Torture was a word I used. Possibly spite and to degrade are better words.
There is not one piece of singular evidence on its own to show Jeremy Bamber burnt Nevill Bamber.
The origins of the burns were never conclusivley established for certain. The prosecution put across a hypothesis at trial. ( which in fairness was accepted by the jury) the Pathologist couldn't be conclusively drawn to their origin.
-
Would have been a fruitless excersise burning a man who had been shot 8 times and beaten brutally for a reaction.
A visual of his condition would have been suffice. If you believe he killed Shelia last you believe he was confident enough to go upstairs and leave Nevill down stairs in the condition he left him in.
-
As said all open ended and nothing conclusive.
It's conclusive that a heated instrument would not stay hot for long enough to go upstairs. He had to be quick with Nevill & he was next to the aga.
For me I agree with Bamber that the burns arose on the massacre night.
I also agree with the majority who say it was to check for signs of life. Either alongside or without a pulse check. The burn marks do not qualify as torture.
-
Would have been a fruitless excersise burning a man who had been shot 8 times and beaten brutally for a reaction.
A visual of his condition would have been suffice. If you believe he killed Shelia last you believe he was confident enough to go upstairs and leave Nevill down stairs in the condition he left him in.
Fruitless or not. The evidence is he inflicted 3 burn marks on Nevill.
Everything Bamber did that night was to reach his goal. He had no time to get side tracked on torture revenge. Burning a knocked out/dead man was for a reason.
-
Torture was a word I used. Possibly spite and to degrade are better words.
There is not one piece of singular evidence on its own to show Jeremy Bamber burnt Nevill Bamber.
The origins of the burns were never conclusivley established for certain. The prosecution put across a hypothesis at trial. ( which in fairness was accepted by the jury) the Pathologist couldn't be conclusively drawn to their origin.
Do you not agree with Bamber that the burn marks were inflicted on the massacre night?
Do you not think shooting, brutally beating & inheriting Nevill's estate was spiteful & degrading Nevill enough? Not sure how 3 burn marks suddenly satisfies Bamber.
-
Would have been a fruitless excersise burning a man who had been shot 8 times and beaten brutally for a reaction.
A visual of his condition would have been suffice. If you believe he killed Shelia last you believe he was confident enough to go upstairs and leave Nevill down stairs in the condition he left him in.
Indeed it would. But supposing they were done, one at a time, when he was possibly semi conscious and slumped in the chair, as a taunt/to make a point, over a period of time? prior to being finally tipped forward into the coal skuttle. Naturally, it requires some sort of back story.
-
Do you not agree with Bamber that the burn marks were inflicted on the massacre night?
Do you not think shooting, brutally beating & inheriting Nevill's estate was spiteful & degrading Nevill enough? Not sure how 3 burn marks suddenly satisfies Bamber.
I've made my thoughts clear on the AGA issue.
Bamber is a life sentenced prisoner who has been trying to get out for decades maintaining his innocence.
-
Indeed it would. But supposing they were done, one at a time, when he was possibly semi conscious and slumped in the chair, as a taunt/to make a point, over a period of time? prior to being finally tipped forward into the coal skuttle. Naturally, it requires some sort of back story.
The burn marks were on his back so could not be self inflicted.
Can't think of any credible way Nevill could have received the burn marks from someone else pre massacre. So must have been inflicted by Bamber after shots 1-4 & the brutal kitchen attack.
Torture has been ruled out as Nevill was not awake/alive & 3 burns does not equal torture.
The only credible reason is to check for signs of life. ILB believes Nevill would just rely on a pulse check. Then we are back to square one looking for Bamber's reason.
-
I really cant understand why everyone is so unwilling to accept that the Aga may well have caused the burns to Nevills back and instead pursue more sinister and far fetched explanations.
-
The burn marks were on his back so could not be self inflicted.
Can't think of any credible way Nevill could have received the burn marks from someone else pre massacre. So must have been inflicted by Bamber after shots 1-4 & the brutal kitchen attack.
Torture has been ruled out as Nevill was not awake/alive & 3 burns does not equal torture.
The only credible reason is to check for signs of life. ILB believes Nevill would just rely on a pulse check. Then we are back to square one looking for Bamber's reason.
Bamber would have done a simple pulse check. He then went upstairs to Shelia so was not concerned about Nevill.
For me in the state Nevill was in a visual would have been enough.
-
Wouldn't say when looking at it Nevill put up a terrific fight Bamber more went to complete town on him.
Bamber didn't have a mark upon him. Not what was discovered in the immediate aftermath.
-
Torture has been ruled out as Nevill was not awake/alive & 3 burns does not equal
Please stop trying to goad. Nothing has been ruled out.
-
I really cant understand why everyone is so unwilling to accept that the Aga may well have caused the burns to Nevills back and instead pursue more sinister and far fetched explanations.
Ive not ruled the aga out I just believe it wouldn't overturn the convictions when other evidence such as JM and more importantly the blood evidence remains unchallenged.
-
For me if he did burn his back with the rifle he dropped a bollock in doing so.
Because it's the sign of someone clear headed and calcuating, not a women with mental health issues gone berserk.
-
At the trial what did the defence say about the burns?
-
At the trial what did the defence say about the burns?
Vanezis trial evidence is in the archive here, Jonathan, he talks about the marks.
I think it was knight who gave evidence for the defence, he thought they may be caused by an object striking Nevills back, and not burns at all, I think!
Maybe someone else can help?
I'll take a look in the books.
-
Bamber would have done a simple pulse check. He then went upstairs to Shelia so was not concerned about Nevill.
For me in the state Nevill was in a visual would have been enough.
Pulse checks are unreliable. Me and Hardyboy have provided sources.
Nothing wrong with using another method.
If Bamber did not inflict the burn marks as torture or to check for signs of life, why did he do it?
-
Ive not ruled the aga out I just believe it wouldn't overturn the convictions when other evidence such as JM and more importantly the blood evidence remains unchallenged.
OK, thanks, ILB!
-
Please stop trying to goad. Nothing has been ruled out.
You torture an alive person. For hours or days. Sometimes to extract information.
Burning a dead/knocked out person 3 times is not torture.
-
I really cant understand why everyone is so unwilling to accept that the Aga may well have caused the burns to Nevills back and instead pursue more sinister and far fetched explanations.
You can't burn your back lying on a cold aga door.
All the raid team & police WS's say Nevill was on the coal scuttle. The reason an officer outside said 'woman in the kitchen' was because she could not see his face.
The CCRC have dismissed this but it was good publicity at the time.
-
My recollection is -
Me
Steve
NGB
Hardyboy
Jane
Scipio
Susan
David
Believe the burn marks were to check for signs of life.
----------
Snow thinks the aga caused the burns.
Zozo said they are not burns but did not give an alternative suggestion.
CC says they are not burns. Has suggested they are metal screws or old war wounds.
-
My recollection is -
Me
Steve
NGB
Hardyboy
Jane
Scipio
Susan
David
----------
Believe the burn marks were to check for signs of life.
Snow thinks the aga caused the burns.
Zozo said they are not burns but did not give an alternative suggestion.
CC says they are not burns. Has suggested they are metal screws or old war wounds.
I know you would do this.
Quite why quoting a small number of people to try and validate your argument to make it stronger defeats me.
-
You torture an alive person. For hours or days. Sometimes to extract information.
Burning a dead/knocked out person 3 times is not torture.
It is degrading someone though who has effectivley ran and dictated your life for 24 years.
-
It is degrading someone though who has effectivley ran and dictated your life for 24 years.
Degrading? Nevill's head was in a coal scuttle with his pyjama trousers down.
-
Vanezis trial evidence is in the archive here, Jonathan, he talks about the marks.
I think it was knight who gave evidence for the defence, he thought they may be caused by an object striking Nevills back, and not burns at all, I think!
Maybe someone else can help?
I'll take a look in the books.
Yes, knights evidence is in the archive here too, Jonathan, he thinks that Nevill was proded and the skin was taken off.
Cant find much info about the marks in any of the books.
-
Yes, knights evidence is in the archive here too, Jonathan, he thinks that Nevill was proded and the skin was taken off.
Cant find much info about the marks in any of the books.
Hi Snow, I tend to agree with what knight say’s, elderly people bruise really easily as the person ages the skin becomes thinner, we’ve all seen how easy elder people bruise, if you think about where the marks were on Neville’s back aligned with his spine, this area would offer no cushioning so forceful prodding could cause those bruises, and maybe that’s why his head landed in the coal Scuttle as he was prodded/pushed from behind. Maybe he was prodding hard from behind using this as a method to check for life? I think once his head went forward uncontrollably into the Coal Scuttle, Bamber would have know that Neville was dead?
-
Degrading? Nevill's head was in a coal scuttle with his pyjama trousers down.
All locked in one mans psyche.
We will never know what was going through that guys head that night and even on the off chance he ever admitted culpability he would probably offer a sanitized version of events.
-
He may well have forgotten himself to be honest, what with years as a CAT A and living a pretence.
-
He may well have forgotten himself to be honest, what with years as a CAT A and living a pretence.
I honestly don’t know how he’s coped ILB, he really must be mentally strong, chasing a MOJ must be the only positive thing to focus on. The only way I’d manage if they let me do three hours cycling a day and bike maintenance after.
-
My recollection is -
Me
Steve
NGB
Hardyboy
Jane
Scipio
Susan
David
Believe the burn marks were to check for signs of life.
----------
Snow thinks the aga caused the burns.
Zozo said they are not burns but did not give an alternative suggestion.
CC says they are not burns. Has suggested they are metal screws or old war wounds.
I definitely think the prodding with the rifle from behind caused Neville to fall forward with his head and into the coal scuttle, whether it was burning or prodding/pushing him from behind, it fits perfect with someone prodding from behind to see if the person was still alive and the way he falls forward.
A weak or fading pulse wouldn’t be definite and would be hard to find anyway, prodding and pushing forward his body from behind would be more definite, especially if there was no movement from Neville after hitting his head in the coal Scuttle. He might have tried to push him onto the floor to see if there was any reaction, not realising the coal Scuttle would break the fall?
-
I honestly don’t know how he’s coped ILB, he really must be mentally strong, chasing a MOJ must be the only positive thing to focus on. The only way I’d manage if they let me do three hours cycling a day and bike maintenance after.
He has lady friends visiting him doesn't he? I doubt I'd get any if I was in prison :(
-
He has lady friends visiting him doesn't he? I doubt I'd get any if I was in prison :(
Hi Jonathan visiting time must be something he looks forward to, he’s human after all, not sure how much visiting he actually gets though?
-
I really cant understand why everyone is so unwilling to accept that the Aga may well have caused the burns to Nevills back and instead pursue more sinister and far fetched explanations.
Not everyone snow! I think the Aga is the most likely cause of the burns to Nevil.
Two people I have spoken to who own Aga's said they can get quite hot on the outside.
We need a scan of the handles and this can be proved or disproved either way.
-
I really cant understand why everyone is so unwilling to accept that the Aga may well have caused the burns to Nevills back and instead pursue more sinister and far fetched explanations.
Ha Ha So Neville supposedly spends hours unconscious, recovers all motor function to stand, walk, speak to Jeremy on the phone, and then was immediately overpowered and shot by Sheila is not far fetched, it’s more budget science fiction.
-
Ha Ha So Neville supposedly spends hours unconscious, recovers all motor function to stand, walk, speak to Jeremy on the phone, and then was immediately overpowered and shot by Sheila is not far fetched, it’s more budget science fiction.
At least Snow is not saying Nevill also spent 10 minutes speaking to Chelmsford Police after regaining conciousness. I agree with that!
-
Good good, Steve!
Hopefully you will have a long and happy retirement when it comes, once you decide where to settle down that is!
I think you're right to stay in this country if you're dependent on the NHS. Not to say I'm not; we all are to some extent. https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/we-left-uk-retired-now-32992725?int_source=nba
I'll let you know when I've moved, and would welcome a visit, wherever that may be: https://www.fazwaz.com.ec/en/property-sales/3-bedroom-house-for-sale-in-portoviejo-manabi-u4124150
-
I think you're right to stay in this country if you're dependent on the NHS. Not to say I'm not; we all are to some extent. https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/we-left-uk-retired-now-32992725?int_source=nba
I'll let you know when I've moved, and would welcome a visit, wherever that may be: https://www.fazwaz.com.ec/en/property-sales/3-bedroom-house-for-sale-in-portoviejo-manabi-u4124150
Well I certainly wont have an abundance of spare cash to spend on health care, Steve!
I'm just aiming for the 'comfortable' lifestyle when I reach retirement at 67 in eight years time, nothing extravagant!
Enough to pay the bills, have a holiday or two and a change of vehicle from time to time!
-
Hi Snow, I tend to agree with what knight say’s, elderly people bruise really easily as the person ages the skin becomes thinner, we’ve all seen how easy elder people bruise, if you think about where the marks were on Neville’s back aligned with his spine, this area would offer no cushioning so forceful prodding could cause those bruises, and maybe that’s why his head landed in the coal Scuttle as he was prodded/pushed from behind. Maybe he was prodding hard from behind using this as a method to check for life? I think once his head went forward uncontrollably into the Coal Scuttle, Bamber would have know that Neville was dead?
Possibly, HB, but I still think the most probable cause of the marks is the Aga, the spacings are just too similar!
-
Not everyone snow! I think the Aga is the most likely cause of the burns to Nevil.
Two people I have spoken to who own Aga's said they can get quite hot on the outside.
We need a scan of the handles and this can be proved or disproved either way.
Sorry Rob, of course I am well aware that the likes of you and Bubo think the Aga burned Nevill too.
Indeed, Bubo pointed out the possibility years ago and had he had access to an Aga I have no doubt he would have worked out which parts of the handles were responsible.
I think Roch believes it may have been the Aga too as does ILB, although he doesn't see that it proves who the killer was.
-
I honestly don’t know how he’s coped ILB, he really must be mentally strong, chasing a MOJ must be the only positive thing to focus on. The only way I’d manage if they let me do three hours cycling a day and bike maintenance after.
He's an old head at it now Hardy, it's his bread and butter.
He is literally Ellis Boyd Redding in Shawshank redemption.
-
The simple problem with the cover up framing scenario is simply the initial outcome was murder suicide.
This wasn't a illterate street kid with a reading age of 9, it was a well spoken middle class privately educated soon to be extremely wealthy individual. A poster boy Thatcherite. It would have been stratgetic suicide for EP to family this type of man who had just lost five members of his family.
Would have been madness for EP to do this
-
Ha Ha So Neville supposedly spends hours unconscious, recovers all motor function to stand, walk, speak to Jeremy on the phone, and then was immediately overpowered and shot by Sheila is not far fetched, it’s more budget science fiction.
Yes, it sounds far fetched, HB, but if the police didn't move Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle after entry, what other explanation is there if you accept that the Aga made the marks?
OK, you think prodding with the rifle caused the marks, but for me, it is the Aga spacings that seal the deal, just too similar to be coincidental!
-
He's an old head at it now Hardy, it's his bread and butter.
He is literally Ellis Boyd Redding in Shawshank redemption.
At least he admitted to his heinous crime. Let's hope Bamber is never released.
-
The simple problem with the cover up framing scenario is simply the initial outcome was murder suicide.
This wasn't a illterate street kid with a reading age of 9, it was a well spoken middle class privately educated soon to be extremely wealthy individual. A poster boy Thatcherite. It would have been stratgetic suicide for EP to family this type of man who had just lost five members of his family.
Would have been madness for EP to do this
That's why he thought he could dismiss Julie and fool a jury.
-
Possibly, HB, but I still think the most probable cause of the marks is the Aga, the spacings are just too similar!
To me Snow it’s the most fitting and simplest explanation, Boyce was right the first time when he said it was caused by the rifle. I don’t think Bamber would want to take off his gloves and rely on a pulse check, especially when there was a better option, prodding and pushing is more faster than trying to locate the pulse, this way he keeps his gloves on and keeps hold of the weapon.
For it to be the Aga Snow you have to move away from the simple explanation and either go down the route of Neville’s body being moved by police officers so they could burn evidence, or going against medical Science, I don’t think for one minute Medical science would back up a functional Neville coherent enough to walk, talk and run upstairs and down again after hours unconscious? Recovery after such would be slow, slurred speech, unbalanced and unable to stand and confusion and possible vomiting.
-
After inflicting the above injuries & shooting him 4-8 times, burning his back 3 times as torture is strange. Nevill was either unconcious or dead.
Burning his back 3 times as torture is not exactly Gerald Butler in Law Abiding Citizen.
I couldn't watch that film in its entirety. A small clip on YouTube and I had to desist.
-
At least he admitted to his heinous crime. Let's hope Bamber is never released.
Bamber would be no danger if released tomorrow in my view.
In fairness I always believed his 25 minimum should have stood.
I don't believe politicians should interfere with the judicary. Whether that be Jeremy or anybody else.
-
A 25 year minimum tariff is exactly that. The bare minimum.
Jeremy would have never been released anyway. No Offence work done because he denies his crime.
The prison service accepts the verdict as gospel and encourages people on life sentences to engage in the system with offence related work.
This is very complex in Jeremy's case as he denies the index offence.
-
I couldn't watch that film in its entirety. A small clip on YouTube and I had to desist.
The man was pumped with adreleline via a tube. So he didn't pass out while an electric saw started sawing him.
The dictionary definition - torture.
-
The man was pumped with adreleline via a tube. So he didn't pass out while an electric saw started sawing him.
The dictionary definition - torture.
Spite dedregation etc.
We're not psychologists and we've not the benefit of knowing what exactly may have been in Jeremy Bambers mind that night. Wealth was the primary motive but I believe a lot of hatred and disdain as well.
Nevill had dictated the mans life for 24 years.
-
I couldn't watch that film in its entirety. A small clip on YouTube and I had to desist.
Butler spoke to man for several minutes beforehand. Telling him what he was going to do to him.
That would be part of a torture routine. Playing mind games & installing extreme fear to the fully focused victim beforehand.
-
To me Snow it’s the most fitting and simplest explanation, Boyce was right the first time when he said it was caused by the rifle. I don’t think Bamber would want to take off his gloves and rely on a pulse check, especially when there was a better option, prodding and pushing is more faster than trying to locate the pulse, this way he keeps his gloves on and keeps hold of the weapon.
For it to be the Aga Snow you have to move away from the simple explanation and either go down the route of Neville’s body being moved by police officers so they could burn evidence, or going against medical Science, I don’t think for one minute Medical science would back up a functional Neville coherent enough to walk, talk and run upstairs and down again after hours unconscious? Recovery after such would be slow, slurred speech, unbalanced and unable to stand and confusion and possible vomiting.
Yes, I agree with your last sentence, HB! As I have said before, Nevill would indeed be extremely shaken if he had recieved blows to the head, especially if his skull was fractured at that time.
Upon coming round he would have struggled to a seat in a confused state, then recalled vagually what had happened before phoning JB for help! Then, upon struggling to his feet he would have staggered upstairs shouting out to June but only alerting Sheila unfortunately, who set upon him with the rifle at the top of the stairs. So with two bullets in the jaw area a fatally injured Nevill slowly backs off and stumbles down stairs, a slow moving target receiving further shots in the shoulder and arm!
It was amazing really that Nevill summoned up the power to make it to the kitchen at all, and alas it was a futile exercise anyway, all he could do was stumble onto a chair and hold up his one good arm in a vain attempt to protect himself.
Sheila prods at Nevills arm and whacks at his head and shoulders, he eventually succumbs to his injuries as he topples onto the side of the chair, his head landing in the coal scuttle.
Sheila is now free to put four more bullets into a motionless and probably lifeless Nevill!
-
Yes, I agree with your last sentence, HB! As I have said before, Nevill would indeed be extremely shaken if he had recieved blows to the head, especially if his skull was fractured at that time.
Upon coming round he would have struggled to a seat in a confused state, then recalled vagually what had happened before phoning JB for help! Then, upon struggling to his feet he would have staggered upstairs shouting out to June but only alerting Sheila unfortunately, who set upon him with the rifle at the top of the stairs. So with two bullets in the jaw area a fatally injured Nevill slowly backs off and stumbles down stairs, a slow moving target receiving further shots in the shoulder and arm!
It was amazing really that Nevill summoned up the power to make it to the kitchen at all, and alas it was a futile exercise anyway, all he could do was stumble onto a chair and hold up his one good arm in a vain attempt to protect himself.
Sheila prods at Nevills arm and whacks at his head and shoulders, he eventually succumbs to his injuries as he topples onto the side of the chair, his head landing in the coal scuttle.
Sheila is now free to put four more bullets into a motionless and probably lifeless Nevill!
But a light fitting was smashed, suggesting Nevill got a hold on the Anschütz and used it to leave his mark. It backs up Julie's story of what Jeremy told her: the overkill, the result of years of resentment, the glove coming off in the fight, information which she couldn't have gleaned from the newspapers.
It's the most likely scenario in my opinion.
-
Yes, I agree with your last sentence, HB! As I have said before, Nevill would indeed be extremely shaken if he had recieved blows to the head, especially if his skull was fractured at that time.
Upon coming round he would have struggled to a seat in a confused state, then recalled vagually what had happened before phoning JB for help! Then, upon struggling to his feet he would have staggered upstairs shouting out to June but only alerting Sheila unfortunately, who set upon him with the rifle at the top of the stairs. So with two bullets in the jaw area a fatally injured Nevill slowly backs off and stumbles down stairs, a slow moving target receiving further shots in the shoulder and arm!
It was amazing really that Nevill summoned up the power to make it to the kitchen at all, and alas it was a futile exercise anyway, all he could do was stumble onto a chair and hold up his one good arm in a vain attempt to protect himself.
Sheila prods at Nevills arm and whacks at his head and shoulders, he eventually succumbs to his injuries as he topples onto the side of the chair, his head landing in the coal scuttle.
Sheila is now free to put four more bullets into a motionless and probably lifeless Nevill!
'Phoning Jeremy for help'?
Jeremy instantly phoned Julie to 'hear a friendly voice'. That was helpful.
-
I couldn't watch that film in its entirety. A small clip on YouTube and I had to desist.
Some tortures can last months or years.
Al-qaeda terrorists were locked up and given different forms of torture.
-
Yes, I agree with your last sentence, HB! As I have said before, Nevill would indeed be extremely shaken if he had recieved blows to the head, especially if his skull was fractured at that time.
Upon coming round he would have struggled to a seat in a confused state, then recalled vagually what had happened before phoning JB for help! Then, upon struggling to his feet he would have staggered upstairs shouting out to June but only alerting Sheila unfortunately, who set upon him with the rifle at the top of the stairs. So with two bullets in the jaw area a fatally injured Nevill slowly backs off and stumbles down stairs, a slow moving target receiving further shots in the shoulder and arm!
It was amazing really that Nevill summoned up the power to make it to the kitchen at all, and alas it was a futile exercise anyway, all he could do was stumble onto a chair and hold up his one good arm in a vain attempt to protect himself.
Sheila prods at Nevills arm and whacks at his head and shoulders, he eventually succumbs to his injuries as he topples onto the side of the chair, his head landing in the coal scuttle.
Sheila is now free to put four more bullets into a motionless and probably lifeless Nevill!
Ha Ha you write with Fantastic imagination I’ll give you that Snow, Neville Shaken, Hours of unconsciousness means brain failure, not ‘shaken, shaken is when you’ve been frightened or shocked or upset, if only head trauma patients actually behaved like characters in your Hollywood story, you’ve turned a serious head trauma into a cosy Neville Nap.
-
But a light fitting was smashed, suggesting Nevill got a hold on the Anschütz and used it to leave his mark. It backs up Julie's story of what Jeremy told her: the overkill, the result of years of resentment, the glove coming off in the fight, information which she couldn't have gleaned from the newspapers.
It's the most likely scenario in my opinion.
I dont think any meaningful fight in the kitchen was possible, Steve!
The two shots to the jaw alone were potentially fatal!
-
'Phoning Jeremy for help'?
Jeremy instantly phoned Julie to 'hear a friendly voice'. That was helpful.
Well Nevill didn't know that Sheila had shot anyone when he phoned JB, Adam, all he could do was tell JB that she had gone crazy, probably meaning that she had bashed him with the rifle.
-
Ha Ha you write with Fantastic imagination I’ll give you that Snow, Neville Shaken, Hours of unconsciousness means brain failure, not ‘shaken, shaken is when you’ve been frightened or shocked or upset, if only head trauma patients actually behaved like characters in your Hollywood story, you’ve turned a serious head trauma into a cosy Neville Nap.
It may well sound like something out of a cheap whodunnit, HB, but I honestly cant think of another Aga burn scenario!
-
Well Nevill didn't know that Sheila had shot anyone when he phoned JB, Adam, all he could do was tell JB that she had gone crazy, probably meaning that she had bashed him with the rifle.
Agree that Nevill did not phone Chelmsford Police station.
-
It may well sound like something out of a cheap whodunnit, HB, but I honestly cant think of another Aga burn scenario!
Bamber's scenario is Nevill fell onto the cold aga door. Then was moved into the coal scuttle pre photos by the raid team or police.
The 1985 raid team & police WS's all say Nevill was in the coal scuttle upon entrance.
-
It may well sound like something out of a cheap whodunnit, HB, but I honestly cant think of another Aga burn scenario!
I think you admitting it sounds like a cheap whodunit, you’ve saved me the trouble Snow, sounding like a whodunnit means you’ve solved the problem and it isn’t real.
-
Aga running at the beginning of August the kitchen must have been like an oven
-
Aga running at the beginning of August the kitchen must have been like an oven
There is no reason why it should be on to heat WHF. Espescially at night when everyone is sleeping under bed clothes.
If it was on, the door is so thick, it will cold from the outside.
-
Butler spoke to man for several minutes beforehand. Telling him what he was going to do to him.
That would be part of a torture routine. Playing mind games & installing extreme fear to the fully focused victim beforehand.
I can't believe your comparing Hollywood and real life in all honesty.
-
I can't believe your comparing Hollywood and real life in all honesty.
I can't believe people consider 3 burn marks on a knocked out/dead man is torture.
-
I can't believe people consider 3 burn marks on a knocked out/dead man is torture.
I can't believe people consider burning a man who has been shot 8 times and brutally beaten with a " Sign of life test "
-
I can't believe people consider burning a man who has been shot 8 times and brutally beaten with a " Sign of life test "
Most people believe this.
Your latest theory that he did it to degrade Nevill doesn't work. Nevill was already found dead, shot, brutally beaten, his head in a coal scuttle with his pyjama trousers down.
You can't get any more degrading than that.
-
I can't believe people consider burning a man who has been shot 8 times and brutally beaten with a " Sign of life test "
A competent shooter knows exactly where to hit for maximum effect without checking afterwards !
-
A competent shooter knows exactly where to hit for maximum effect without checking afterwards !
Any competent shooter using a low powered rifle made for shooting Vermin and with a .22 round not much bigger than a .22 pellet wouldn't be confident that he had killed any human being, when you actually see the size of the lead it’s understandable, it’s definitely not an instant kill of human beings, best to be safe and check and that’s what Bamber did, the last thing he wanted was to leave any witness.
-
Any competent shooter using a low powered rifle made for shooting Vermin and with a .22 round not much bigger than a .22 pellet wouldn't be confident that he had killed any human being, when you actually see the size of the lead it’s understandable, it’s definitely not an instant kill of human beings, best to be safe and check and that’s what Bamber did, the last thing he wanted was to leave any witness.
To me I think he purposely did over kill, If the .22 was left out with bullets for Sheila, it’s strange that when the bodies were found, the rifle was empty and every shot had been used/fired, That seems strange and it seems to me someone purposely used it to make sure all the bullets were used? Would a live bullet left in the magazine carry more forensics than a fired Bullet shell, maybe that’s why it was staged this way?
-
Any competent shooter using a low powered rifle made for shooting Vermin and with a .22 round not much bigger than a .22 pellet wouldn't be confident that he had killed any human being, when you actually see the size of the lead it’s understandable, it’s definitely not an instant kill of human beings, best to be safe and check and that’s what Bamber did, the last thing he wanted was to leave any witness.
The knowledge of a competent shooter be it with a low or high-powered rifle would know exactly where on the body would obtain the highest fatal result.
-
In fairness as I have previously said if the burns had occured pre massacre I would have expected Jeremy Bamber to be able to be able to clarify their origin as no doubt he would have seen them at some point in his lifetime and Nevill would have told him about them.
But if my theory is correct the marks would not have been visible pre murders. Until I see some expert evidence to the contrary I will continue to believe the marks were connected to NB's back surgery ie orthapedic hardware which caused friction marks from within based on NB's found position ie head hanging forward, spine curved and blood pooling away from the hardware which effectively was at the heighest part of his body.
-
Aga questions
Has it been shown that it was in use at the time? Even at the warmest time of the year in the UK.
Was it a coal Aga or another fuel?
-
Any competent shooter using a low powered rifle made for shooting Vermin and with a .22 round not much bigger than a .22 pellet wouldn't be confident that he had killed any human being, when you actually see the size of the lead it’s understandable, it’s definitely not an instant kill of human beings, best to be safe and check and that’s what Bamber did, the last thing he wanted was to leave any witness.
From point blank very close range a .22 rifle is lethal, there would be no need to check if someone was dead if you pumped four shots into their head from a few feet away.
-
But if my theory is correct the marks would not have been visible pre murders. Until I see some expert evidence to the contrary I will continue to believe the marks were connected to NB's back surgery ie orthapedic hardware which caused friction marks from within based on NB's found position ie head hanging forward, spine curved and blood pooling away from the hardware which effectively was at the heighest part of his body.
You could be right I would have just expected JB to have knowledge about this. It was his dad.
-
You could be right I would have just expected JB to have knowledge about this. It was his dad.
Well he might have had knowledge his dad had back surgery. Afterall I know from books etc so why wouldn't he? Often back surgery involves orthapedic hardware but the point is it would not have been visible pre death. If I am right the marks came about post death because of NB's found position and the fact the heart stopped pumping blood around his body thus causing a sort of internal friction mark. If you consider how taut the skin was in that area from NB slumped forward and blood pooling away to the lowest points.
-
Have to go by Vanezis - they are burns.
He was a pathologist who saw the bodies.
He should know what a burn on human flesh looks like. If not sure, he can ask someone. He will certainly know if they were internal metal screws!
-
Have to go by Vanezis - they are burns.
He was a pathologist who saw the bodies.
He should know what a burn on human flesh looks like. If not sure, he can ask someone. He will certainly know if they were internal metal screws!
At trial Dr Vanezis concluded he was unsure about the origins. He was working under pressure carrying out 5 pm's and concerned with identifying cause of death. The marks were unimportant in terms of cause of death. The bodies were cremated before a proper investigation into the marks was undertaken.
Prof Knight gave a detailed account of why he didn't think the marks were burns. He concluded they came about through prodding with some implement which I agree with. Prodding from orthapedic hardware from inside out.
-
The crime scene also supports burns. On the night.
Nevill lifted onto a coal scuttle/chair. Next to an aga plate.
-
The crime scene also supports burns. On the night.
Nevill lifted onto a coal scuttle/chair. Next to an aga plate.
There's no expert evidence for your assertions.
-
Bamber would have had time to heat a metal instrument suffiently. It said it will take 5 minutes on the aga plate.
-
Bamber would have had time to heat a metal instrument suffiently. It said it will take 5 minutes on the aga plate.
Where in the trial testimony was such an assertion made?
-
Bamber would have had time to heat a metal instrument suffiently. It said it will take 5 minutes on the aga plate.
What do you think would be the purpose of Bamber heating a metal instrument?
-
What do you think would be the purpose of Bamber heating a metal instrument?
Most people think it would be to check for signs of life. A pulse check can be unreliable.
-
Most people think it would be to check for signs of life. A pulse check can be unreliable.
Why would that be necessary? Just put another couple of bullets into his head to be sure
-
Most people think it would be to check for signs of life. A pulse check can be unreliable.
Like who?
Makes no sense. Why single out NB? Why not June too?
-
Like who?
Makes no sense. Why single out NB? Why not June too?
Steve
Hardyboy
Jane
NGB
Me
Scipio
-
Why would that be necessary? Just put another couple of bullets into his head to be sure
He did shoot him 4 times upstairs. Was still breathing.
-
Steve
Hardyboy
Jane
NGB
Me
Scipio
But afaik none of the people you have quoted are experts and none appeared at trial.
-
Why would that be necessary? Just put another couple of bullets into his head to be sure
Do you think Nevill would call Jeremy after receiving his his 4 upstairs shots?
This was Bamber's & his defence teams narrative at trial.
-
But afaik none of the people you have quoted are experts and none appeared at trial.
Vanezis is an expert who examined the bodies - 3 burn marks'.
But if you think they are internal metal, feel free.
-
He did shoot him 4 times upstairs. Was still breathing.
Don't know why he wouldn't just put more into Nevill's brain. Instead deciding to stand around heating up metal objects
-
Don't know why he wouldn't just put more into Nevill's brain. Instead deciding to stand around heating up metal objects
Well the crime scene evidence is he did both.
-
At trial Dr Vanezis concluded he was unsure about the origins. He was working under pressure carrying out 5 pm's and concerned with identifying cause of death. The marks were unimportant in terms of cause of death. The bodies were cremated before a proper investigation into the marks was undertaken.
Prof Knight gave a detailed account of why he didn't think the marks were burns. He concluded they came about through prodding with some implement which I agree with. Prodding from orthapedic hardware from inside out.
Do you mean there was still metal in Nevills back, Cutie? or just some kind of scar tissue?
Wouldn't metal have shown up in x-rays?
-
Aga questions
Has it been shown that it was in use at the time? Even at the warmest time of the year in the UK.
Was it a coal Aga or another fuel?
It's assumed the Age was on. However, the Bambers' had alternative means of cooking, and it would be reasonable to think they had alternative ways of heating water. Such being so, there'd have been no need to be running the Aga 24 hours a day in the height of summer...........or even at all during summer months. There wasn't likely to be gas laid on. It was an old model so unlikely to have been converted to electric, ergo, there only remains coal or wood.
-
Do you mean there was still metal in Nevills back, Cutie? or just some kind of scar tissue?
Wouldn't metal have shown up in x-rays?
Full body x-rays were taken. Only metal that was detected were the bullets.
-
Full body x-rays were taken. Only metal that was detected were the bullets.
Yes, I think Vanezis would have discovered if there were any internal screws or metal plates in line with the burn marks, Dave!
-
Yes, I think Vanezis would have discovered if there were any internal screws or metal plates in line with the burn marks, Dave!
Wrong!
Location/Technique: Overlapping bone structures (especially in complex areas like the spine) can obscure a clear view of the entire device or adjacent bone. An improper viewing angle or a single X-ray view may also miss a problem.
What are the statistical chances?
NB has back surgery following a plane crash during WW2.
Some 40 years mystery marks appear at the top of his back ::)
-
Wrong!
Location/Technique: Overlapping bone structures (especially in complex areas like the spine) can obscure a clear view of the entire device or adjacent bone. An improper viewing angle or a single X-ray view may also miss a problem.
What are the statistical chances?
NB has back surgery following a plane crash during WW2.
Some 40 years mystery marks appear at the top of his back ::)
X Rays were done.
Concede.
-
Wrong!
Location/Technique: Overlapping bone structures (especially in complex areas like the spine) can obscure a clear view of the entire device or adjacent bone. An improper viewing angle or a single X-ray view may also miss a problem.
What are the statistical chances?
NB has back surgery following a plane crash during WW2.
Some 40 years mystery marks appear at the top of his back ::)
I see Cutie! And is there literature saying they could appear again after death?
-
Yes, I think Vanezis would have discovered if there were any internal screws or metal plates in line with the burn marks, Dave!
This again? It's the ramblings of a pisshead talking to herself.
-
I see Cutie! And is there literature saying they could appear again after death?
What do you mean appear again after death?
-
This again? It's the ramblings of a pisshead talking to herself.
Haha...and your excuse for your 'ramblings' that AE contaminated the silencer with water from a bucket containing SC's menstrual stained knickers left to soak?
-
X Rays were done.
Concede.
Sectional x rays were carried out which could easily have missed the orthapedic hardware.
-
Full body x-rays were taken. Only metal that was detected were the bullets.
And your evidence that full body x-rays were taken and not sectional x-rays?
-
Sectional x rays were carried out which could easily have missed the orthapedic hardware.
Vanezis examined the bodies. His pathology report says they are 3 burn marks.
Concede.
-
What do you mean appear again after death?
The actual marks on Nevills back!
-
Vanezis examined the bodies. His pathology report says they are 3 burn marks.
Concede.
At trial he concluded he could not be certain. Prof Knight for the defence did not have the benefit of seeing the victims but he told the court the marks were not burns and he was absolute about this.
The xrays were limited to the gunshot wound tracks and identifying bullets/fragments.
-
At trial he concluded he could not be certain. Prof Knight for the defence did not have the benefit of seeing the victims but he told the court the marks were not burns and he was absolute about this.
The xrays were limited to the gunshot wound tracks and identifying bullets/fragments.
Bamber's 2012 and 2021 CCRC applications are on the basis they are burns.
Concede.
-
The actual marks on Nevills back!
Think about it...NB had back surgery circa mid 40's following a plane crash during WW2. Either at the time or some time later he had orthapedic hardware fitted around the top (head) of his spinal column. When the heart is pumping the hardware is surrounded by blood. When the heart stops the blood drains away. Look at NB's found position: spine curved and stretched with blood pooling away, hardware protrudes from within causing the marks. When NB is moved and lying flat it removes the pressure. Not rocket science, just common sense.
-
Bamber's 2012 and 2021 CCRC applications are on the basis they are burns.
Concede.
I have never believed the marks were burns.
-
I have never believed the marks were burns.
Knight, Caroso, Vanezis and nobody else has said they are metal plates.
Concede.
-
Think about it...NB had back surgery circa mid 40's following a plane crash during WW2. Either at the time or some time later he had orthapedic hardware fitted around the top (head) of his spinal column. When the heart is pumping the hardware is surrounded by blood. When the heart stops the blood drains away. Look at NB's found position: spine curved and stretched with blood pooling away, hardware protrudes from within causing the marks. When NB is moved and lying flat it removes the pressure. Not rocket science, just common sense.
But all these theories, be it prodding, burning or old remnants from back surgery, just happen to have the same spacing as the Aga knobs, Cutie?
-
But all these theories, be it prodding, burning or old remnants from back surgery, just happen to have the same spacing as the Aga knobs, Cutie?
If the PSOR says this but it was still refused in July, I'm sure the CT would release that section!
-
If the PSOR says this but it was still refused in July, I'm sure the CT would release that section!
Not quite sure what you mean there, Adam? I think the Aga evidence was simply rejected along with moving Nevills body! Nevertheless, I think the Aga is the shoe that fits the burns to Nevills back!
Talking of the police moving Nevill, it would be very interesting what the PSOR says about that???, then we can really go to town on the Aga evidence as a point on its own, as it were!
So hopefully the CCRC have given 'PROOF' one way or another regarding the police moving Nevill!!
I mean, as far as we know, one of the issues that the CT sent to the CCRC included the moving of Nevills body from the Aga to the chair/scuttle, right? so this means the CCRC will have to make a decision about that claim, doesn't it??
-
Not quite sure what you mean there, Adam? I think the Aga evidence was simply rejected along with moving Nevills body! Nevertheless, I think the Aga is the shoe that fits the burns to Nevills back!
Talking of the police moving Nevill, it would be very interesting what the PSOR says about that???, then we can really go to town on the Aga evidence as a point on its own, as it were!
So hopefully the CCRC have given 'PROOF' one way or another regarding the police moving Nevill!!
I mean, as far as we know, one of the issues that the CT sent to the CCRC included the moving of Nevills body from the Aga to the chair/scuttle, right? so this means the CCRC will have to make a decision about that claim, doesn't it??
If the aga evidence was rejected it either means -
The burn marks do not match the aga knobs.
The aga door is cold even if the aga is on.
The burn marks match the aga knobs & the police must have moved Nevill pre photos. But that is not sufficient to pass to the COA.
----------
If it is number 3, that would have been released to the media.
-
If the aga evidence was rejected it either means -
The burn marks do not match the aga knobs.
The aga door is cold even if the aga is on.
The burn marks match the aga knobs & the police must have moved Nevill pre photos. But that is not sufficient to pass to the COA.
----------
If it is number 3, that would have been released to the media.
But we know -
The burn marks 'do' match the Aga knobs
The Aga knobs 'were hot' , Boyce's experiment proved this!
That leaves 3, Adam!
OR !! of course, the burns occurred earlier before Nevill was killed!!
-
But we know -
The burn marks 'do' match the Aga knobs
No, we don't know that.
-
But we know -
The burn marks 'do' match the Aga knobs
The Aga knobs 'were hot' , Boyce's experiment proved this!
That leaves 3, Adam!
OR !! of course, the burns occurred earlier before Nevill was killed!!
The video with Boyce was suggesting it could be the aga.
So we don't know 1 & 2.
-
Steve
Hardyboy
Jane
NGB
Me
Scipio
" Most people "
-
No, we don't know that.
Well, maybe not entirely, Dave! Boyce's video is slightly vague about the top mark.
But I think he/they have got it right, dont you?
-
The video with Boyce was suggesting it could be the aga.
So we don't know 1 & 2.
Well we dont know much of anything at the moment about the CCRC's decision regarding the Aga evidence nor the police moving Nevill, Adam!
-
Not quite sure what you mean there, Adam? I think the Aga evidence was simply rejected along with moving Nevills body! Nevertheless, I think the Aga is the shoe that fits the burns to Nevills back!
Talking of the police moving Nevill, it would be very interesting what the PSOR says about that???, then we can really go to town on the Aga evidence as a point on its own, as it were!
So hopefully the CCRC have given 'PROOF' one way or another regarding the police moving Nevill!!
I mean, as far as we know, one of the issues that the CT sent to the CCRC included the moving of Nevills body from the Aga to the chair/scuttle, right? so this means the CCRC will have to make a decision about that claim, doesn't it??
As a potential ground of appeal the police moving Nevill is a non-starter. It involves a number of people lying. Why would they lie and why would they want to move him anyway? And f they did move him how does that undermine the prosecution case heard at trial?
Plus it seems to rely on Boyce's theories about the marks on Nevill's back - which is outside his expertise.
-
But we know -
The burn marks 'do' match the Aga knobs
The Aga knobs 'were hot' , Boyce's experiment proved this!
That leaves 3, Adam!
OR !! of course, the burns occurred earlier before Nevill was killed!!
How could Boyce's experiment 'prove' the Aga was hot when it's not even certain the Aga was on?
-
Well, maybe not entirely, Dave! Boyce's video is slightly vague about the top mark.
But I think he/they have got it right, dont you?
I am open minded Snow but I do think the Aga is the most likely cause of the marks to Nevil, also the bloodstained cushion beside the Aga is interesting?
Bubo has posted about this, I am sure if JB is the shooter he did not put it their for Nevil's benefit?
-
Well we dont know much of anything at the moment about the CCRC's decision regarding the Aga evidence nor the police moving Nevill, Adam!
The PSOR has been released. But only to a few supporters.
If it said the aga caused the burns, Nevill was moved pre photos & people lied, it would be over social media now.
-
As a potential ground of appeal the police moving Nevill is a non-starter. It involves a number of people lying. Why would they lie and why would they want to move him anyway? And f they did move him how does that undermine the prosecution case heard at trial?
Plus it seems to rely on Boyce's theories about the marks on Nevill's back - which is outside his expertise.
Basically, Jonathan, what I would like to see is the Aga evidence and moving Nevill dealt with individually. ie, did the police move Nevill after entry, and what does this prove?
And- did the Aga burn Nevills back, and what does this prove?
But of course, having said that, the police moving Nevill does change the Aga burn scenario, eg, it means JB could have killed Nevill and left him lying against the Aga when he exited the house around 2.30, so as you say, just how does the police moving Nevill clear JB?
On the other hand if the police did not move Nevill and the Aga evidence is accepted then it surely follows that Nevill burned his back much earlier before ending up on the chair/scuttle.
Its all pretty basic really, isn't it?
Two simple questions, did the police move Nevill and did the Aga burn Nevills back???
YET!!!! as yet we have no answers! Of course we are told the CT cant tell us much until the CCRC decision is challenged!
-
How could Boyce's experiment 'prove' the Aga was hot when it's not even certain the Aga was on?
I was referring to the Aga he was using in his experiments, Jane! the Aga parts obviously got hot enough to burn the pig skin.
-
I am open minded Snow but I do think the Aga is the most likely cause of the marks to Nevil, also the bloodstained cushion beside the Aga is interesting?
Bubo has posted about this, I am sure if JB is the shooter he did not put it their for Nevil's benefit?
Yes, cushions lying by the Aga doesn't really fit into a JB scenario Rob.
-
The PSOR has been released. But only to a few supporters.
If it said the aga caused the burns, Nevill was moved pre photos & people lied, it would be over social media now.
Well obviously the CCRC decision didn't please the CT/JB, else they wouldn't be challenging it, Adam!
-
No, we don't know that.
I think Yvonne Hartley claimed they did, so it must be true..
-
I was referring to the Aga he was using in his experiments, Jane! the Aga parts obviously got hot enough to burn the pig skin.
Snow, it's perfectly obvious that, if the Aga, used by Boyce, scorched pig skin, it was either on, or had been on. it isn't certain that the Bambers' Aga was, or had been.
-
Well obviously the CCRC decision didn't please the CT/JB, else they wouldn't be challenging it, Adam!
I know they didn't like. But it would be all over social media if the CCRC agreed Nevill was moved, EP lied about it & they are not referring.
Everyone has to go by the photos, raid team WS's & the available aga plate next to Nevill.
-
Snow, it's perfectly obvious that, if the Aga, used by Boyce, scorched pig skin, it was either on, or had been on. it isn't certain that the Bambers' Aga was, or had been.
Ah, I see Jane, I dont know whatwas said about the Bambers one!
What about the top plates? could they have heated the rifle if the oven wasn't on?
-
Ah, I see Jane, I dont know whatwas said about the Bambers one!
What about the top plates? could they have heated the rifle if the oven wasn't on?
It would take 5 minutes for an aga plate to heat a metal instrument sufficiently.
-
Ah, I see Jane, I dont know whatwas said about the Bambers one!
What about the top plates? could they have heated the rifle if the oven wasn't on?
The AGA was found on when they entered.
-
The AGA was found on when they entered.
They had 3 guests and would need hot water at least.
-
The AGA was found on when they entered.
What's the source for this?
-
They had 3 guests and would need hot water at least.
Emersion heaters do a fine job of producing hot water.
-
Not sure of the role of the aga.
If it was just to heat WHF, obviously it would be off during the summer.
If it was to heat hot water it would be on some of the time. But not 24/7.
The other issues is the outside of the door will be cold.
-
It would take 5 minutes for an aga plate to heat a metal instrument sufficiently.
But what powers/heats the Aga plates, Adam?
-
The AGA was found on when they entered.
OK, thanks, Dave!
-
How does Neville manage to lie against the handle only for 3 hours - without touching any other part of the Aga which would have been hotter than the handle? If the Aga was even on.
-
But what powers/heats the Aga plates, Adam?
Gas. Electricity?
Why?
-
How does Neville manage to lie against the handle only for 3 hours - without touching any other part of the Aga which would have been hotter than the handle? If the Aga was even on.
I don't know but the door is probably a hollow construction and the handle probably solid with different heat transfer properties?
Aga's can get hot on the outside:
"My Aga is so hot you can’t touch it from the outside"
-
I guessed Rob would eventually say he had an aga.
His life is a collection of experiences which relate to 1985.
-
Gas. Electricity?
Why?
Well I was just trying to work out how the top plates were powered, Adam?
I thought you maybe just stoked the oven and that powered the whole Aga, top plates and all!
Yet you are suggesting the plates had a different source of power? eg, power from the mains??
Maybe Jane can clarify how the top plates are powered??
-
Well I was just trying to work out how the top plates were powered, Adam?
I thought you maybe just stoked the oven and that powered the whole Aga, top plates and all!
Yet you are suggesting the plates had a different source of power? eg, power from the mains??
Maybe Jane can clarify how the top plates are powered??
My oven plates are powered by electricity. They get hot quick as my tomato soup only takes 5 mins.
-
The theory is Nevill would have been burned by the handle in the way shown below. The handle conducts heat from the outside of the Aga - so if Nevill is lying against a hot aga why do only three small spots get burned?
-
Those 3 points look too high for Nevill lying on his side.
-
But what powers/heats the Aga plates, Adam?
Whatever heat source is used to heat the Aga! The hotplates aren't heated separately. The one closest to the heat source is used for frying/searing, and anything requiring fast cooking. The other hotplate is called the simmering plate which is self explanatory.
-
Whatever heat source is used to heat the Aga! The hotplates aren't heated separately. The one closest to the heat source is used for frying/searing, and anything requiring fast cooking. The other hotplate is called the simmering plate which is self explanatory.
Fast cooking. And fast heating of metal.
-
My oven plates are powered by electricity. They get hot quick as my tomato soup only takes 5 mins.
But the Bamber Aga must have been solid fuel, Adam, after reading a bit, I think the plates would be heated from within without electricity, but! I am no Aga expert!
I will ask Jane what type of Aga she has and how the plates are heated up!
-
How does Neville manage to lie against the handle only for 3 hours - without touching any other part of the Aga which would have been hotter than the handle? If the Aga was even on.
The handle of the slow -bottom- oven can be easily handled without gloves, as can whatever is cooking in it. The roasting oven is a different proposition! Well, it would be! It roasts! But Nevill wasn't claimed to be anywhere near the roasting oven.
-
Whatever heat source is used to heat the Aga! The hotplates aren't heated separately. The one closest to the heat source is used for frying/searing, and anything requiring fast cooking. The other hotplate is called the simmering plate which is self explanatory.
So, what would heat the Bambers hot plates then, Jane? Internally from the coal? Or from a mains power source?
What type have you got, and how dows it work? Is it plugged into the mains at all?
-
But the Bamber Aga must have been solid fuel, Adam, after reading a bit, I think the plates would be heated from within without electricity, but! I am no Aga expert!
I will ask Jane what type of Aga she has and how the plates are heated up!
Ours was converted from solid fuel to oil. No part of it requires separate heat sources. Once the Aga is on, every part of it is heated by the same heat source. Giant lids, which are unbelievably heavy, can be drawn down over the hot plates to stop heat wastage.
-
The handle of the slow -bottom- oven can be easily handled without gloves, as can whatever is cooking in it. The roasting oven is a different proposition! Well, it would be! It roasts! But Nevill wasn't claimed to be anywhere near the roasting oven.
Is the handle and two other points shown by Boyce connected to the roasting oven ,Jane?
-
So, what would heat the Bambers hot plates then, Jane? Internally from the coal? Or from a mains power source?
What type have you got, and how dows it work? Is it plugged into the mains at all?
Given that most rural dwellers don't have the luxury of gas, other than a few having Calor, if the Bambers' wasn't solid fuel, I suspect it would have been oil. Solid fuel/wood has to be chopped, and fetched and carried, which is time consuming and hard work. ALL new Agas are electric, but I don't think such was the case when the Bamber model, the same as ours, was built.
-
Ours was converted from solid fuel to oil. No part of it requires separate heat sources. Once the Aga is on, every part of it is heated by the same heat source. Giant lids, which are unbelievably heavy, can be drawn down over the hot plates to stop heat wastage.
Right, so now were getting somewhere, Jane!
You're saying if the Aga wasn't on that night then the rifle barrel could not have been heated up on the top plates, right??
Yet the rifle was not hot enough to inflict the burns without being heated up for five minutes on the plate in the Boyce experiments, and there was no other heat source in the house.
Hence the Aga must have been on if the rifle burned Nevills back,
-
Is the handle and two other points shown by Boyce connected to the roasting oven ,Jane?
ALL points, shown by Boyce to inflict wounds, are at the lower level, ie, the same level as the slow oven. I have previously said I can open the slow oven and take out the contents without protection, and remember, the rest of the Aga, at this time, will be on full power.
-
Right, so now were getting somewhere, Jane!
You're saying if the Aga wasn't on that night then the rifle barrel could not have been heated up on the top plates, right??
Yet the rifle was not hot enough to inflict the burns without being heated up for five minutes on the plate in the Boyce experiments, and there was no other heat source in the house.
Hence the Aga must have been on if the rifle burned Nevills back,
I've never been entirely convinced that the rifle caused Nevill's wounds. The best I could come up with was placing the barrel into boiling water. An emersion heater can heat water to almost boiling.
-
I've never been entirely convinced that the rifle caused Nevill's wounds. The best I could come up with was placing the barrel into boiling water. An emersion heater can heat water to almost boiling.
To my eyes the three marks on Nevil have not been caused by the same implement?
-
I've never been entirely convinced that the rifle caused Nevill's wounds. The best I could come up with was placing the barrel into boiling water. An emersion heater can heat water to almost boiling.
I don't think boiling water would heat metal suffiently.
I put a metal knife on one of my plates. It heated the bottom of it within 5 minutes.
-
To my eyes the three marks on Nevil have not been caused by the same implement?
Ooh! A new idea thrown into the mix! Can you expand on that?
-
Is the inside of the aga actual fire?
In Raiders of the Lost Arc an instrument in a log fire went from brown to red in seconds. The woman was going to be burned with it until Indy stepped in.
-
One option to check for signs of life would have been to pour boiling water on Nevill.
-
Ooh! A new idea thrown into the mix! Can you expand on that?
A new idea Jane? come on have a look, if you think a rifle barrel caused all three marks that's ok.
-
To my eyes the three marks on Nevil have not been caused by the same implement?
Yes, thats another important point, Rob! Just why aren't the three marks identical?
Another point in favour of the Aga, which would have different sized parts touching Nevills back, the handle itself making the top mark which was biggest.
-
Is the inside of the aga actual fire?
In Raiders of the Lost Arc an instrument in a log fire went from brown to red in seconds. The woman was going to be burned with it until Indy stepped in.
Okay! Inside the circle which forms the super fast hot plate is another circle with a smaller circumference. It can be lifted out using some sort of lever. Once it has been removed -this would be done to check how the Aga is burning- it's impossible to look down into the workings because of the heat being emitted. Nothing placed in it would last more than seconds. However, if you're thinking about putting a rifle into its depths, protecting your hands would be essential.
-
A new idea Jane? come on have a look, if you think a rifle barrel caused all three marks that's ok.
I'm not certain enough, that the wounds were rifle inflicted, to dismiss other ideas.
-
One option to check for signs of life would have been to pour boiling water on Nevill.
Isn't it easier to accept the burns were simply accidental, Adam?
You know it makes sense,lad!
-
Yes, thats another important point, Rob! Just why aren't the three marks identical?
Another point in favour of the Aga, which would have different sized parts touching Nevills back, the handle itself making the top mark which was biggest.
We need a Lidar scan of the handles and surrounding floor Snow, hopefully the CT have done this?
If he Aga caused the marks it's hard to work in a scenario with JB being the shooter though! Unless the police moved Nevil?
-
Isn't it easier to accept the burns were simply accidental, Adam?
You know it makes sense,lad!
The 3 knobs on the aga look too high for a Nevill on his side.
That is if they were actually hot in the first place.
-
Isn't it easier to accept the burns were simply accidental, Adam?
You know it makes sense,lad!
Adam knows if the Aga caused the marks to Nevil it's game over Snow! He obviously thinks your theory's are quite strong that he comes up with some of the rubbish he does!
-
The 3 knobs on the aga look too high for a Nevill on his side.
That is if they were actually hot in the first place.
Why Adam? A Aga topplate is around 33 inches high, a males shoulders are around 19 - 22 inches wide.
Nevil was 6' 4" sounds about right to me?
-
Adam knows if the Aga caused the marks to Nevil it's game over Snow! He obviously thinks your theory's are quite strong that he comes up with some of the rubbish he does!
Rob's decided to say he has an aga. Several years after the CT claim.
Hope he posts a video showing how hot the outside door gets.
Otherwise more porkies.
-
Why Adam? A Aga topplate is around 33 inches high, a males shoulders are around 19 - 22 inches wide.
Nevil was 6' 4" sounds about right to me?
Nevill was burnt underneath his neck. The middle of his torso on his side would be too low.
-
I wonder why it took supporters over 30 years to think of the Aga
-
Rob's decided to say he has an aga. Several years after the CT claim.
Hope he posts a video showing how hot the outside door gets.
Otherwise more porkies.
But that's just it Adam the Aga handles don't have to be that hot, around 40 degrees maybe a touch more?
The core body temp is 37 degrees.
-
Nevill was burnt underneath his neck. The middle of his torso on his side would be too low.
Don't just spout stuff Adam give us some numbers to back your thoughts up.
-
I wonder why it took supporters over 30 years to think of the Aga
Properganda. Keeps him on social media. Some people will support it.
He can add it to the CCRC grounds. The podcast said he kept adding things to his 2004 CCRC application & it took 8 years until a final refusal.
-
Don't just spout stuff Adam give us some numbers to back your thoughts up.
Good luck.
-
Don't just spout stuff Adam give us some numbers to back your thoughts up.
The middle of his torso/neck would be lower than the 3 knobs.
Source - my eyes.
-
Properganda. Keeps him on social media. Some people will support it.
He can add it to the CCRC grounds. The podcast said he kept adding things to his 2004 CCRC application & it took 8 years until a final refusal.
Guys been banged up 40 years Adam, most of them CAT A
Of course he will throw shit to see if it sticks, as it stands he's gonna die in prison.
-
We need a Lidar scan of the handles and surrounding floor Snow, hopefully the CT have done this?
If he Aga caused the marks it's hard to work in a scenario with JB being the shooter though! Unless the police moved Nevil?
Whats a Lidar scan, Rob?
-
Whats a Lidar scan, Rob?
It's where you use laser light to take millions of measurements to create a highly accurate 3d model Snow.
Some I phones have lidar scanners on them.
-
Good luck.
I know wishful thinking ILB!
-
The middle of his torso/neck would be lower than the 3 knobs.
Source - my eyes.
Boyce actually had someone lying against the Aga, you know this so not sure why you post misinformation like this?
-
It's where you use laser light to take millions of measurements to create a highly accurate 3d model Snow.
Some I phones have lidar scanners on them.
Ah, thanks, Rob! Never heard of it, i'm hopeless with gadgets and technology.
-
Boyce actually had someone lying against the Aga, you know this so not sure why you post misinformation like this?
Not the WHF aga.
-
Boyce actually had someone lying against the Aga, you know this so not sure why you post misinformation like this?
The camerawork tries it's best not to show this but it appears he had to prop himself up for the position to be right - so unconscious/dead Nevill would also have to had propped himself up. Also in such a way that no other parts of his body were touching the hot aga - otherwise there would be other similar marks.
-
I wonder why it took supporters over 30 years to think of the Aga
Not true I posted about this aspect in 2022 and before that on 31/12/19 to a journalist who I was writing to about the case.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10682.msg530610.html#msg530610
-
The camerawork tries it's best not to show this but it appears he had to prop himself up for the position to be right - so unconscious/dead Nevill would also have to had propped himself up. Also in such a way that no other parts of his body were touching the hot aga - otherwise there would be other similar marks.
Certainly, the 'victim' appeared to be supporting themself in a particular position. Not something an unconscious Nevill would have been capable of, is it?
-
Not true I posted about this aspect in 2022 and before that on 31/12/19 to a journalist who I was writing to about the case.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10682.msg530610.html#msg530610
2019 is actually 34 years.
If Neville was lying in the foetal position back to the Aga the handle could not have made the marks. - it's too high up.
-
Certainly, the 'victim' appeared to be supporting themself in a particular position. Not something an unconscious Nevill would have been capable of, is it?
This is probably deliberately shot in a way that the actor's unnatural lying position is not shown
-
Properganda. Keeps him on social media. Some people will support it.
He can add it to the CCRC grounds. The podcast said he kept adding things to his 2004 CCRC application & it took 8 years until a final refusal.
This is highly misleading if not a lie. At least their website confirms that there were CCRC applications in 2004, 2007, 2010 and 2012.
https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/timeline (https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/timeline)