Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Kaldin on April 14, 2011, 05:54:PM
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Can we just sort this out? Obviously, there is only Jeremy's word for it that he left the gun out at all, but he said he left it on the settle not the kitchen table. The settle appears to be in the "back kitchen" - ie the bit where the police got into the house before they entered the kitchen.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=431.0;attach=1286;image)
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Can we just sort this out? Obviously, there is only Jeremy's word for it that he left the gun out at all, but he said he left it on the settle not the kitchen table. The settle appears to be in the "back kitchen" - ie the bit where the police got into the house before they entered the kitchen.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=431.0;attach=1286;image)
You learn something every day. Now I know what a settle is!!
..and as you say it was parked in the back kitchen or scullery.
(http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/photos/dealer_elmgarden_full_1270640389371-6123657693.jpg)
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Not very comfy looking! I wonder if it was a family heirloom?
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Not very comfy looking! I wonder if it was a family heirloom?
I think the one in the actual scullery photo has a fabric on foam base which would be a bit kinder o the bum.
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Can we just sort this out? Obviously, there is only Jeremy's word for it that he left the gun out at all, but he said he left it on the settle not the kitchen table. The settle appears to be in the "back kitchen" - ie the bit where the police got into the house before they entered the kitchen.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=431.0;attach=1286;image)
Where is this room in relation to the window that JB was supposed to have gained access from?
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Not very comfy looking! I wonder if it was a family heirloom?
I think the one in the actual scullery photo has a fabric on foam base which would be a bit kinder o the bum.
That's alright then! It reminds me of a park bench or a church pew.
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I'm just going by what it says on the "official" web site in the myths and facts section.
Jeremy left the gun out on the table
No, Jeremy left the Anshultz rifle on the settle in the scullery next to the kitchen.
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/myths-facts
On Jeremy's drawing, the scullery was a room which led from the kitchen, but the only picture of a settle I can find is the one I've posted, and that's a picture of what Jeremy referred to as the "laundry" and which others have referred to as the "back kitchen".
Here's Jeremy's plan of the house.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=217.0;attach=498;image
I think it is quite important to know where he said he left the gun. If he's telling the truth, it could be significant as to whether Sheila happened upon the gun or if she had to make an effort to go and find it.
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Can we just sort this out? Obviously, there is only Jeremy's word for it that he left the gun out at all, but he said he left it on the settle not the kitchen table. The settle appears to be in the "back kitchen" - ie the bit where the police got into the house before they entered the kitchen.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=431.0;attach=1286;image)
Where is this room in relation to the window that JB was supposed to have gained access from?
I think it was said that Jeremy got in through the downstairs toilet window. He would have had to go through the kitchen to get to the room in the photo.
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Can we just sort this out? Obviously, there is only Jeremy's word for it that he left the gun out at all, but he said he left it on the settle not the kitchen table. The settle appears to be in the "back kitchen" - ie the bit where the police got into the house before they entered the kitchen.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=431.0;attach=1286;image)
Where is this room in relation to the window that JB was supposed to have gained access from?
I think it was said that Jeremy got in through the downstairs toilet window. He would have had to go through the kitchen to get to the room in the photo.
Is this pic the right way round? I thought I'd read that when the police entered the house they had to turn right to enter the kitchen.
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I think you may have mixed up the scullery with the laundry Kaldin.
The website clearly states scullery. You will see from Jeremy's sketch that the scullery does not have an external door.
Yes, it does say scullery, but people seem to call different rooms different things. I'm going by the settle as well. If Jeremy had been out with the gun it would be more logical for him to leave it in the room he called the "laundry" as that is near the back door. As you say, the scullery has no external door.
This is a picture of the scullery.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=217.0;attach=523;image)
Maybe Mike knows exactly where Jeremy said he left the gun.
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The plans drawn by JB are inaccurate.
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Can we just sort this out? Obviously, there is only Jeremy's word for it that he left the gun out at all, but he said he left it on the settle not the kitchen table. The settle appears to be in the "back kitchen" - ie the bit where the police got into the house before they entered the kitchen.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=431.0;attach=1286;image)
Where is this room in relation to the window that JB was supposed to have gained access from?
I think it was said that Jeremy got in through the downstairs toilet window. He would have had to go through the kitchen to get to the room in the photo.
Is this pic the right way round? I thought I'd read that when the police entered the house they had to turn right to enter the kitchen.
They did. The door to the kitchen is to the left of the pic.
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The plans drawn by JB are inaccurate.
Here's a better plan of the house.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=217.0;attach=511;image
However, you'll see that the room Jeremy called the "laundry" is called the "back kitchen" on this plan.
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The website clearly states scullery but according to Jeremy's sketch it does not have an external door whilst the snap shows such a door.
I wonder if the website is wrong?
(http://i.imgur.com/P397G.jpg)
This seems to be the right room with the settle so which room is it?
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I think you may have mixed up the scullery with the laundry Kaldin.
The website clearly states scullery. You will see from Jeremy's sketch that the scullery does not have an external door.
Yes, it does say scullery, but people seem to call different rooms different things. I'm going by the settle as well. If Jeremy had been out with the gun it would be more logical for him to leave it in the room he called the "laundry" as that is near the back door. As you say, the scullery has no external door.
This is a picture of the scullery.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=217.0;attach=523;image)
Maybe Mike knows exactly where Jeremy said he left the gun.
Crikey! What a mess. I wonder if that lidded bucket in foreground was where Sheila's clothes were soaking? Maybe why no one noticed them?
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The website clearly states scullery but according to Jeremy's sketch it does not have an external door whilst the snap shows such a door.
I wonder if the website is wrong?
(http://i.imgur.com/P397G.jpg)
This seems to be the right room with the settle so which room is it?
It's the room which the police first entered. They came in the back door which you can see. To their right was the door to the kitchen, and to their left are some cupboards etc. You can also see where the back office is - through the greyish door - that's where the gun cupboard was.
Horseydave said that this part of the house was originally a separate but attached cottage with its own staircase. The staircase would be roughly where the photographer was standing.
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Woodcock described that room in his statement.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=179.0;attach=271;image
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So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?
(http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jan2011/1/1/jeremy-bamber-image-2-874416078.jpg)
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So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?
(http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jan2011/1/1/jeremy-bamber-image-2-874416078.jpg)
No, that's the kitchen where Nevill was found. The police came through the back door to the house, and turned right through another door into the kitchen. You can see the door through which they entered the kitchen in the top right of the photo.
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This house is so confusing :(
If the office is so close, why didn't Jeremy take a few more steps and put the gun away in the cupboard there? Or have I got that place wrong?
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This is a photo of the side/back of the house. You can see the external door they bashed down to get in.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=539.0;attach=1737;image)
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This house is so confusing :(
If the office is so close, why didn't Jeremy take a few more steps and put the gun away in the cupboard there? Or have I got that place wrong?
Yes, the office is right next to that area where the settle was.
I think he was asked that question at the trial. :D
I'm not clear myself as to where the gun was allegedly left, but I think it's important to establish where exactly he left it.
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Cant believe they had an housekeeper!
She wasnt doing a great job!!
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Cant believe they had an housekeeper!
She wasnt doing a great job!!
I've often wondered what she actually did!
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Anyway, if Jeremy was the culprit it would be more sensible of him to say he left the gun in the kitchen - ie, somewhere it was easily accessible for Sheila to just happen to find and pick up. If he said he left it in the back kitchen, she wouldn't really come across the gun unless she went out to that area for some bizarre reason.
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The website clearly states scullery but according to Jeremy's sketch it does not have an external door whilst the snap shows such a door.
I wonder if the website is wrong?
(http://i.imgur.com/P397G.jpg)
This seems to be the right room with the settle so which room is it?
I once had a house with two access doors at the front, but used only of these because I prefered the layout of the room that way. If I'd drawn a plan of the house, I doubt that I would have shown the second door, even though it could be easily opened.
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When Mike gets here, perhaps he could post a plan of the downstairs with an "x marks the spot" or something. ;D
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When Mike gets here, perhaps he could post a plan of the downstairs with an "x marks the spot" or something. ;D
I'm pretty sure he's done that but all has got lost amongst the threads! Perhaps we need a specific thread dedicated to 'clearly' labelled photos. (And, no, I'm not voluteering :))
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I think you may have mixed up the scullery with the laundry Kaldin.
The website clearly states scullery. You will see from Jeremy's sketch that the scullery does not have an external door.
Yes, it does say scullery, but people seem to call different rooms different things. I'm going by the settle as well. If Jeremy had been out with the gun it would be more logical for him to leave it in the room he called the "laundry" as that is near the back door. As you say, the scullery has no external door.
This is a picture of the scullery.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=217.0;attach=523;image)
Maybe Mike knows exactly where Jeremy said he left the gun.
This is the storage section of a scullery in the back kitchen of a working farm. I would expect it to be like this.
Crikey! What a mess. I wonder if that lidded bucket in foreground was where Sheila's clothes were soaking? Maybe why no one noticed them?
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When Mike gets here, perhaps he could post a plan of the downstairs with an "x marks the spot" or something. ;D
I'm pretty sure he's done that but all has got lost amongst the threads! Perhaps we need a specific thread dedicated to 'clearly' labelled photos. (And, no, I'm not voluteering :))
He hasn't marked the spot where Jeremy said he left the gun.
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I think you may have mixed up the scullery with the laundry Kaldin.
The website clearly states scullery. You will see from Jeremy's sketch that the scullery does not have an external door.
Yes, it does say scullery, but people seem to call different rooms different things. I'm going by the settle as well. If Jeremy had been out with the gun it would be more logical for him to leave it in the room he called the "laundry" as that is near the back door. As you say, the scullery has no external door.
This is a picture of the scullery.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=217.0;attach=523;image)
Maybe Mike knows exactly where Jeremy said he left the gun.
Crikey! What a mess. I wonder if that lidded bucket in foreground was where Sheila's clothes were soaking? Maybe why no one noticed them?
I believe there were two buckets in which Sheila's clothes were soaking: one for light coloured clothes, one for dark coloured clothes. The clothes were probably separated to prevent dark colours 'bleeding' into light ones.
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Can we please stick to the topic? I'm getting lost on this forum because all the threads go off topic.
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Can we please stick to the topic? I'm getting lost on this forum because all the threads go off topic.
Sorry Kaldin! But you did post the photos :) Women notice these things...
Plus it recalls thoughts from other threads which are now 'lost'.
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Can we please stick to the topic? I'm getting lost on this forum because all the threads go off topic.
Sorry Kaldin! But you did post the photos :) Women notice these things...
Plus it recalls thoughts from other threads which are now 'lost'.
Point taken. ;D
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Sorry if this is going off topic again but only an idiot would leave a gun
out with young children in the house!
However I am sure that I have seen other photos of the house showing other
guns were also left casually under clothes in a bathroom, etc.
The mind boggles!
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Sorry if this is going off topic again but only an idiot would leave a gun
out with young children in the house!
However I am sure that I have seen other photos of the house showing other
guns were also left casually under clothes in a bathroom, etc.
The mind boggles!
OK, let's just say that Jeremy was an idiot to leave a gun out - if that's what he did.
Where he left it is very significant don't you think? I presume his theory is that Sheila got hold of the gun because he left it around so she didn't actually plan to deliberately go and get a gun. If he said he left it in a place where she was not likely to go, does that indicate that he might be telling the truth? If he wanted people to think that she just picked it up because it was there, he would have said he left it in a very visible place like the kitchen table along with very handy ammunition.
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Sorry if this is going off topic again but only an idiot would leave a gun
out with young children in the house!
However I am sure that I have seen other photos of the house showing other
guns were also left casually under clothes in a bathroom, etc.
The mind boggles!
OK, let's just say that Jeremy was an idiot to leave a gun out - if that's what he did.
Where he left it is very significant don't you think? I presume his theory is that Sheila got hold of the gun because he left it around so she didn't actually plan to deliberately go and get a gun. If he said he left it in a place where she was not likely to go, does that indicate that he might be telling the truth? If he wanted people to think that she just picked it up because it was there, he would have said he left it in a very visible place like the kitchen table along with very handy ammunition.
You have a piont there.
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Sorry if this is going off topic again but only an idiot would leave a gun
out with young children in the house!
However I am sure that I have seen other photos of the house showing other
guns were also left casually under clothes in a bathroom, etc.
The mind boggles!
OK, let's just say that Jeremy was an idiot to leave a gun out - if that's what he did.
Where he left it is very significant don't you think? I presume his theory is that Sheila got hold of the gun because he left it around so she didn't actually plan to deliberately go and get a gun. If he said he left it in a place where she was not likely to go, does that indicate that he might be telling the truth? If he wanted people to think that she just picked it up because it was there, he would have said he left it in a very visible place like the kitchen table along with very handy ammunition.
Well that doesn't make sense - 'where she was not likely to go'. I'm sure she would have gone to any part of the house, especially if this is by the main door everyone used, and it was right next to the kitchen where she most likely put her clothes to soak.
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Well that doesn't make sense - 'where she was not likely to go'. I'm sure she would have gone to any part of the house, especially if this is by the main door everyone used, and it was right next to the kitchen where she most likely put her clothes to soak.
I don't agree. Was she likely to have gone to the area near the back door after she'd gone to bed? She would have had to go through the kitchen and out of the kitchen door. I don't know where the clothes were left in the bucket though, so perhaps you have a point.
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Well that doesn't make sense - 'where she was not likely to go'. I'm sure she would have gone to any part of the house, especially if this is by the main door everyone used, and it was right next to the kitchen where she most likely put her clothes to soak.
I don't agree. Was she likely to have gone to the area near the back door after she'd gone to bed? She would have had to go through the kitchen and out of the kitchen door. I don't know where the clothes were left in the bucket though, so perhaps you have a point.
Yes, but depending on what time Jeremy left, how was he to know the movements of everyone? Lots of people 'potter about' before they go to bed - even sorting out washng for next day.
Sheila's autopsy/post mortem showed she had undigested food in her stomach, and although her mother told Pamela that Sheila was going to bed, there's nothing to say she actually went to sleep, therefore she could have gone downstairs again to get something to eat. If she had gone wandering up into the attic then maybe that would have been strange.
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Well that doesn't make sense - 'where she was not likely to go'. I'm sure she would have gone to any part of the house, especially if this is by the main door everyone used, and it was right next to the kitchen where she most likely put her clothes to soak.
I don't agree. Was she likely to have gone to the area near the back door after she'd gone to bed? She would have had to go through the kitchen and out of the kitchen door. I don't know where the clothes were left in the bucket though, so perhaps you have a point.
Yes, but depending on what time Jeremy left, how was he to know the movements of everyone? Lots of people 'potter about' before they go to bed - even sorting out washng for next day.
Sheila's autopsy/post mortem showed she had undigested food in her stomach, and although her mother told Pamela that Sheila was going to bed, there's nothing to say she actually went to sleep, therefore she could have gone downstairs again to get something to eat. If she had gone wandering up into the attic then maybe that would have been strange.
Yes, but the settle wasn't in the kitchen, it was in the "back kitchen". Sure, she could have gone out there to soak the clothes, but she wouldn't have gone out there to get something to eat.
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Well that doesn't make sense - 'where she was not likely to go'. I'm sure she would have gone to any part of the house, especially if this is by the main door everyone used, and it was right next to the kitchen where she most likely put her clothes to soak.
I don't agree. Was she likely to have gone to the area near the back door after she'd gone to bed? She would have had to go through the kitchen and out of the kitchen door. I don't know where the clothes were left in the bucket though, so perhaps you have a point.
Yes, but depending on what time Jeremy left, how was he to know the movements of everyone? Lots of people 'potter about' before they go to bed - even sorting out washng for next day.
Sheila's autopsy/post mortem showed she had undigested food in her stomach, and although her mother told Pamela that Sheila was going to bed, there's nothing to say she actually went to sleep, therefore she could have gone downstairs again to get something to eat. If she had gone wandering up into the attic then maybe that would have been strange.
Yes, but the settle wasn't in the kitchen, it was in the "back kitchen". Sure, she could have gone out there to soak the clothes, but she wouldn't have gone out there to get something to eat.
She would have done so if she wanted cucumber or eggs, Kaldin. Take a look on that small table and on the shelf behind it.
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Also, I think it's more likely that Nevill would have put the gun away if Jeremy had left it on the kitchen table. He might not have seen it if it was on the settle though.
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Well that doesn't make sense - 'where she was not likely to go'. I'm sure she would have gone to any part of the house, especially if this is by the main door everyone used, and it was right next to the kitchen where she most likely put her clothes to soak.
I don't agree. Was she likely to have gone to the area near the back door after she'd gone to bed? She would have had to go through the kitchen and out of the kitchen door. I don't know where the clothes were left in the bucket though, so perhaps you have a point.
Yes, but depending on what time Jeremy left, how was he to know the movements of everyone? Lots of people 'potter about' before they go to bed - even sorting out washng for next day.
Sheila's autopsy/post mortem showed she had undigested food in her stomach, and although her mother told Pamela that Sheila was going to bed, there's nothing to say she actually went to sleep, therefore she could have gone downstairs again to get something to eat. If she had gone wandering up into the attic then maybe that would have been strange.
Yes, but the settle wasn't in the kitchen, it was in the "back kitchen". Sure, she could have gone out there to soak the clothes, but she wouldn't have gone out there to get something to eat.
Now you're being silly! I didn't mean she found food in the back kitchen (Winalot anyone) but it is in the general vicinity.
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Well that doesn't make sense - 'where she was not likely to go'. I'm sure she would have gone to any part of the house, especially if this is by the main door everyone used, and it was right next to the kitchen where she most likely put her clothes to soak.
I don't agree. Was she likely to have gone to the area near the back door after she'd gone to bed? She would have had to go through the kitchen and out of the kitchen door. I don't know where the clothes were left in the bucket though, so perhaps you have a point.
Yes, but depending on what time Jeremy left, how was he to know the movements of everyone? Lots of people 'potter about' before they go to bed - even sorting out washng for next day.
Sheila's autopsy/post mortem showed she had undigested food in her stomach, and although her mother told Pamela that Sheila was going to bed, there's nothing to say she actually went to sleep, therefore she could have gone downstairs again to get something to eat. If she had gone wandering up into the attic then maybe that would have been strange.
Yes, but the settle wasn't in the kitchen, it was in the "back kitchen". Sure, she could have gone out there to soak the clothes, but she wouldn't have gone out there to get something to eat.
She would have done so if she wanted cucumber or eggs, Kaldin. Take a look on that small table and on the shelf behind it.
Those were in the scullery though - that's another room off the kitchen and the settle wasn't in there.
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Well that doesn't make sense - 'where she was not likely to go'. I'm sure she would have gone to any part of the house, especially if this is by the main door everyone used, and it was right next to the kitchen where she most likely put her clothes to soak.
I don't agree. Was she likely to have gone to the area near the back door after she'd gone to bed? She would have had to go through the kitchen and out of the kitchen door. I don't know where the clothes were left in the bucket though, so perhaps you have a point.
Yes, but depending on what time Jeremy left, how was he to know the movements of everyone? Lots of people 'potter about' before they go to bed - even sorting out washng for next day.
Sheila's autopsy/post mortem showed she had undigested food in her stomach, and although her mother told Pamela that Sheila was going to bed, there's nothing to say she actually went to sleep, therefore she could have gone downstairs again to get something to eat. If she had gone wandering up into the attic then maybe that would have been strange.
Yes, but the settle wasn't in the kitchen, it was in the "back kitchen". Sure, she could have gone out there to soak the clothes, but she wouldn't have gone out there to get something to eat.
Now you're being silly! I didn't mean she found food in the back kitchen (Winalot anyone) but it is in the general vicinity.
Yes, but it's a different room. The back door is there, the office is there, and possibly some washing facilities, but there's no food there. Why would she go out there?
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Well that doesn't make sense - 'where she was not likely to go'. I'm sure she would have gone to any part of the house, especially if this is by the main door everyone used, and it was right next to the kitchen where she most likely put her clothes to soak.
I don't agree. Was she likely to have gone to the area near the back door after she'd gone to bed? She would have had to go through the kitchen and out of the kitchen door. I don't know where the clothes were left in the bucket though, so perhaps you have a point.
Yes, but depending on what time Jeremy left, how was he to know the movements of everyone? Lots of people 'potter about' before they go to bed - even sorting out washng for next day.
Sheila's autopsy/post mortem showed she had undigested food in her stomach, and although her mother told Pamela that Sheila was going to bed, there's nothing to say she actually went to sleep, therefore she could have gone downstairs again to get something to eat. If she had gone wandering up into the attic then maybe that would have been strange.
Yes, but the settle wasn't in the kitchen, it was in the "back kitchen". Sure, she could have gone out there to soak the clothes, but she wouldn't have gone out there to get something to eat.
She would have done so if she wanted cucumber or eggs, Kaldin. Take a look on that small table and on the shelf behind it.
Too true Keira. She was an ex-model so would have perhaps wanted something healthy/non-fattening!
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I think there's total confusion about which room is which. ???
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Or if she wanted tomatoes, potatoes, or onions - unless that round thing is an orange, HM.
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An omelette, perhaps?
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Perhaps Sheila did wander out to the back kitchen where the clothes washing facilities were, and took off her underwear to soak it, and then saw the gun.
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I think there's total confusion about which room is which. ???
Totally!
Glad I live in normal house. One front door and back door. One kitchen, bathroom, loo and living room etc. Nowhere to hide! Downside is if anyone falls out, they have to go for walk round the park.... :)
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An omelette, perhaps?
Ooh, I'd love an omelette but I can't be bothered to make one. You would have to live on omelette's, quiches and scrambles if you had 70 -100 eggs in your kitchen and you'd be in and out of the store in the back kitchen's scullery all of the time, wouldn't you?
So, does that mean the two buckets containing Sheila's clothes could have been in the store room, the scullery and the back kitchen simultaneously: because all of these rooms are part of one rambling back kitchen complex full of nooks and crannies?
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Or if she wanted tomatoes, potatoes, or onions - unless that round thing is an orange, HM.
Had to go and have another look at photo Kaldin kindly posted for us Keira! Not sure about round thing. Could be onion/orange?
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An omelette, perhaps?
Ooh, I'd love an omelette but I can't be bothered to make one. You would have to live on omelette's, quiches and scrambles if you had 70 -100 eggs in your kitchen and you'd be in and out of the store in the back kitchen's scullery all of the time, wouldn't you?
So, does that mean the two buckets containing Sheila's clothes could have been in the store room, the scullery and the back kitchen simultaneously: because all of these rooms are part of one rambling back kitchen complex full of nooks and crannies?
It would be useful to know where the clothes were, and I think Mike has mentioned that before. If they were in the area where the gun was, she could have seen it then.
I doubt the gun would have been in the scullery. If Jeremy did go out to shoot rabbits and then come back in, he's more likely to have left the gun near the back door, and the scullery is not near the back door.
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Oh, and the laundry may simply been one section of one old, rambling room too. The old farmhouses I've been in have a series of sections in their kitchens, perhaps separated by a step down, narrowing or widening of one section of the room or a 'hole in the wall' type section.
Each of these sections have names which suggest they're rooms: the laundry, the dairy, the scullery and so on, when in fact the feeling that there are separate rooms is a bit of an optical illusion.
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Oh, and the laundry may simply been one section of one old, rambling room too. The old farmhouses I've been in have a series of sections in their kitchens, perhaps separated by a step down, narrowing or widening of one section of the room or a 'hole in the wall' type section.
Each of these sections have names which suggest they're rooms: the laundry, the dairy, the scullery and so on, when in fact the feeling that there are separate rooms is a bit of an optical illusion.
As I understand it, they are separate rooms. The kitchen has four doors coming off it - one to the room where the back door is and where the office also is, and I think that's where the laundry stuff was too. There's another door leading from the kitchen to the scullery - a separate room with no access to the outside. Another door led to the hall, and another led to the kitchen stairs.
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Oh, and the laundry may simply been one section of one old, rambling room too. The old farmhouses I've been in have a series of sections in their kitchens, perhaps separated by a step down, narrowing or widening of one section of the room or a 'hole in the wall' type section.
Each of these sections have names which suggest they're rooms: the laundry, the dairy, the scullery and so on, when in fact the feeling that there are separate rooms is a bit of an optical illusion.
As I understand it, they are separate rooms. The kitchen has four doors coming off it - one to the room where the back door is and where the office also is, and I think that's where the laundry stuff was too. There's another door leading from the kitchen to the scullery - a separate room with no access to the outside. Another door led to the hall, and another led to the kitchen stairs.
Oh dear!
Were the jurors ever taken to see WHF? I know that in some cases jurors are taken to a scene just so they have a better understanding of a crime scene.
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Oh, and the laundry may simply been one section of one old, rambling room too. The old farmhouses I've been in have a series of sections in their kitchens, perhaps separated by a step down, narrowing or widening of one section of the room or a 'hole in the wall' type section.
Each of these sections have names which suggest they're rooms: the laundry, the dairy, the scullery and so on, when in fact the feeling that there are separate rooms is a bit of an optical illusion.
As I understand it, they are separate rooms. The kitchen has four doors coming off it - one to the room where the back door is and where the office also is, and I think that's where the laundry stuff was too. There's another door leading from the kitchen to the scullery - a separate room with no access to the outside. Another door led to the hall, and another led to the kitchen stairs.
Oh dear!
Were the jurors ever taken to see WHF? I know that in some cases jurors are taken to a scene just so they have a better understanding of a crime scene.
I don't know. They probably should have been.
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There might have been another door from the kitchen too. There was some kind of drinks room or cupboard, but I'm not sure how big that is.
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There might have been another door from the kitchen too. There was some kind of drinks room or cupboard, but I'm not sure how big that is.
I could do with a 'drinks room'. Everything might seem clearer ;D
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An omelette, perhaps?
Ooh, I'd love an omelette but I can't be bothered to make one. You would have to live on omelette's, quiches and scrambles if you had 70 -100 eggs in your kitchen and you'd be in and out of the store in the back kitchen's scullery all of the time, wouldn't you?
So, does that mean the two buckets containing Sheila's clothes could have been in the store room, the scullery and the back kitchen simultaneously: because all of these rooms are part of one rambling back kitchen complex full of nooks and crannies?
It would be useful to know where the clothes were, and I think Mike has mentioned that before. If they were in the area where the gun was, she could have seen it then.
I doubt the gun would have been in the scullery. If Jeremy did go out to shoot rabbits and then come back in, he's more likely to have left the gun near the back door, and the scullery is not near the back door.
Do you not think that Jeremy had in all likelihood left that gun on the settle many times, because, muttering as he cleared up such stuff, that's all part of of a father's job description? Sheila and everyone else would have known that too: rural farming families, in my experience, have levels of intimacy and mutual knowledge which often goes beyond that of families in towns, they spend more time together for a start.
So here was are in this rambling old farmhouse during the 1980s a time when codes of conduct in respect of guns were far more lax than they are now. Everyone in the family knows what their share of the chores are here. Jeremy does what thousands of young farmers have done for centuries after a shattering day's graft in the fields: kicks off his muddy boots for mum to clean and drops his stuff at the first opportune point, the settle where he's chucked his stuff on arrival for decades. After all, what else would a settle for? The women and children of the family know not to touch the family's guns which, anyway, are all over the place.
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There might have been another door from the kitchen too. There was some kind of drinks room or cupboard, but I'm not sure how big that is.
When I joined this forum the first thing I did was ask Mike for a plan of the house. ;D
I could do with a 'drinks room'. Everything might seem clearer ;D
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On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.
But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!
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On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.
But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!
Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.
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On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.
But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!
Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.
Kaldin..........Ann Eaton stated that the clothes were soaking in a bucket by the aga.
I think you will find that JB changed his story 3 times as regards to where he left the rifle.I do believe that when first questioned,he stated that he left it on the kitchen table.Realising that story probably wouldnt wash because it would be likely Ralph would put it away,he then stated that he left it leaning against the wall of either the kitchen or scullery (not sure which).JB eventually went with the explanation that he left it on the settle in the scullery.I believe Mike has JBs police statements.Maybe you could ask him to post them in full to see what he actually said?
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Oh.........and according to Ann Eaton,JB told police that he didnt return the rifle to the gun cupboard because it wasnt usually kept there as it did not fit in there with the silencer attached.It was proved that the rifle did in fact fit in there.As you would know,JB stated at trial that he was simply "too lazy" to put it back in the gun cupboard.
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On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.
But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!
Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.
Kaldin..........Ann Eaton stated that the clothes were soaking in a bucket by the aga.
I think you will find that JB changed his story 3 times as regards to where he left the rifle.I do believe that when first questioned,he stated that he left it on the kitchen table.Realising that story probably wouldnt wash because it would be likely Ralph would put it away,he then stated that he left it leaning against the wall of either the kitchen or scullery (not sure which).JB eventually went with the explanation that he left it on the settle in the scullery.I believe Mike has JBs police statements.Maybe you could ask him to post them in full to see what he actually said?
It's pure speculation to say that Jeremy changed his story because he realised saying he left the gun on the kitchen table 'wouldn't wash'. Do you always remember where you put things? People who smoke lots of cannabis have notoriously bad memories.
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On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.
But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!
Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.
Kaldin..........Ann Eaton stated that the clothes were soaking in a bucket by the aga.
I think you will find that JB changed his story 3 times as regards to where he left the rifle.I do believe that when first questioned,he stated that he left it on the kitchen table.Realising that story probably wouldnt wash because it would be likely Ralph would put it away,he then stated that he left it leaning against the wall of either the kitchen or scullery (not sure which).JB eventually went with the explanation that he left it on the settle in the scullery.I believe Mike has JBs police statements.Maybe you could ask him to post them in full to see what he actually said?
Thanks. If the clothes were in the kitchen then I'm not sure why Sheila would go to the back kitchen area.
If Jeremy did leave the gun on the table I would think that Neville would put it away. The table had been in use that evening and it may have been laid for breakfast, so I'm not convinced Jeremy would have put the gun on there anyway. The obvious place to leave it would be near the back door.
On the other hand, the ammunition was in the kitchen near the phone. Hmmmm.
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Oh.........and according to Ann Eaton,JB told police that he didnt return the rifle to the gun cupboard because it wasnt usually kept there as it did not fit in there with the silencer attached.It was proved that the rifle did in fact fit in there.As you would know,JB stated at trial that he was simply "too lazy" to put it back in the gun cupboard.
But Jeremy said the silencer wasn't attached. If it was usually attached then he would have had to take it off before he went out to find the rabbits.
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Oh.........and according to Ann Eaton,JB told police that he didnt return the rifle to the gun cupboard because it wasnt usually kept there as it did not fit in there with the silencer attached.It was proved that the rifle did in fact fit in there.As you would know,JB stated at trial that he was simply "too lazy" to put it back in the gun cupboard.
But Jeremy said the silencer wasn't attached. If it was usually attached then he would have had to take it off before he went out to find the rabbits.
Yes.In earlier questioning,he had stated that the silencer was attatched.That story changed too.People can smite me all they like but the trouble is that the murders were a very long time ago now and peoples memories fade.However,Im pretty good at remembering what people say! I know its going off topic,but I also remember clearly that JB was supposed to have stated that during the phone call from Ralph,he had heard gunshots! Could all be pure speculation or it could simply be the truth that JB changed his story a few times.And the truth is all I am interested in.
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On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.
But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!
Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.
Kaldin..........Ann Eaton stated that the clothes were soaking in a bucket by the aga.
I think you will find that JB changed his story 3 times as regards to where he left the rifle.I do believe that when first questioned,he stated that he left it on the kitchen table.Realising that story probably wouldnt wash because it would be likely Ralph would put it away,he then stated that he left it leaning against the wall of either the kitchen or scullery (not sure which).JB eventually went with the explanation that he left it on the settle in the scullery.I believe Mike has JBs police statements.Maybe you could ask him to post them in full to see what he actually said?
It's pure speculation to say that Jeremy changed his story because he realised saying he left the gun on the kitchen table 'wouldn't wash'. Do you always remember where you put things? People who smoke lots of cannabis have notoriously bad memories.
Yes I agree it is pure speculation.Could easily have been a slip of the memory.It is also pure speculation that JB is innocent though as well.Considering the lack of "hard facts" surrounding the case,speculation is unfortunately all we have!
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i am new to this forum and this particular debate.... so forgive me if i go over old ground. Having watched the tv programme it inspired me to carry out some research into this case - and it seems to me that the conviction was based entirely around the word of a jilted girlfriend and 'extended family members' who have done very nicely out if it ... reference scratches appearing 34 days after the crime ... you will tell from this that I have severe doubts about this conviction.
It would help if the PII was lifted and those that know far more about than this me were allowed to review all that went on - until then .... keep guessing i suppose.
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i am new to this forum and this particular debate.... so forgive me if i go over old ground. Having watched the tv programme it inspired me to carry out some research into this case - and it seems to me that the conviction was based entirely around the word of a jilted girlfriend and 'extended family members' who have done very nicely out if it ... reference scratches appearing 34 days after the crime ... you will tell from this that I have severe doubts about this conviction.
It would help if the PII was lifted and those that know far more about than this me were allowed to review all that went on - until then .... keep guessing i suppose.
Hi alexy and welcome.
JB's conviction is based on three main areas (amongst many other topics)
1) JM's witness statements against JB (as you refer to above)
2) The silencer issue (and it being found by the relatives)
3) The 3.26am phone call JB is alleged to have received from his father saying SC had got the gun etc. which the jury (majority) thought JB was lying about.
Most on here have some doubts about some of the evidence (either way), and it is evident that arguments and counter arguments are the norm here........ Kaldin (as an independent) gives balanced thoughts to most of the posts on here and opens up some new areas of interest (like this one).
Most of the posters on here are reasonably balanced but from time to time it flares up with the occasional nutter ;D
Happy posting and a +1 for starting the journey :P
kaldin - sorry about going of thread ;)
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So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?
(http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jan2011/1/1/jeremy-bamber-image-2-874416078.jpg)
No, that's the kitchen where Nevill was found. The police came through the back door to the house, and turned right through another door into the kitchen. You can see the door through which they entered the kitchen in the top right of the photo.
Hi kaldin, the door EP came through into the kitchen is the door I would describe as top centre of the photo (just to the left of the old fashioned tea dispenser on the left hand side of the red aga surround).
It is in this corner of the room that Mike T suggests NB was sat (dead) in the chair prior to EP pushing the door open and NB then somehow being left in that "precarious position" propped on the overturned chair with his head positioned in the coal scuttle.
It may also be of interest that you can see the window edge (top left of photo) and if NB was sat in the chair in the corner of that room it may, as Mike T has suggested on many occasions, be difficult to see anyone in that position from the window!
back on topic: this is always going to be difficult to establish (as with most things here) as it simply depends on whether one believes in what JB says or not!
If we start from a misinformed position we will nearly always end up in wrong position ???
An intriguing question (amongst loads) I would like answered is how did NB end up in that awful final position?
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So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?
(http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jan2011/1/1/jeremy-bamber-image-2-874416078.jpg)
No, that's the kitchen where Nevill was found. The police came through the back door to the house, and turned right through another door into the kitchen. You can see the door through which they entered the kitchen in the top right of the photo.
Hi kaldin, the door EP came through into the kitchen is the door I would describe as top centre of the photo (just to the left of the old fashioned tea dispenser on the left hand side of the red aga surround).
It is in this corner of the room that Mike T suggests NB was sat (dead) in the chair prior to EP pushing the door open and NB then somehow being left in that "precarious position" propped on the overturned chair with his head positioned in the coal scuttle.
It may also be of interest that you can see the window edge (top left of photo) and if NB was sat in the chair in the corner of that room it may, as Mike T has suggested on many occasions, be difficult to see anyone in that position from the window!
back on topic: this is always going to be difficult to establish (as with most things here) as it simply depends on whether one believes in what JB says or not!
If we start from a misinformed position we will nearly always end up in wrong position ???
An intriguing question (amongst loads) I would like answered is how did NB end up in that awful final position?
it looks to me as if you might be able to see someone wedged in that corner, through window in question, but it would be a very accute angle. Apologies for deviating from thread topic...Does the log 'one male plus one female' state 'found on entry'? I thought i had read that. I think found on entry literally means found upon entry to property and not seen through window, thought was female... but mistake... is male.
I've just checked and I may be going off this doc:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,380.0.html
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So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?
(http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jan2011/1/1/jeremy-bamber-image-2-874416078.jpg)
No, that's the kitchen where Nevill was found. The police came through the back door to the house, and turned right through another door into the kitchen. You can see the door through which they entered the kitchen in the top right of the photo.
Hi kaldin, the door EP came through into the kitchen is the door I would describe as top centre of the photo (just to the left of the old fashioned tea dispenser on the left hand side of the red aga surround).
It is in this corner of the room that Mike T suggests NB was sat (dead) in the chair prior to EP pushing the door open and NB then somehow being left in that "precarious position" propped on the overturned chair with his head positioned in the coal scuttle.
It may also be of interest that you can see the window edge (top left of photo) and if NB was sat in the chair in the corner of that room it may, as Mike T has suggested on many occasions, be difficult to see anyone in that position from the window!
back on topic: this is always going to be difficult to establish (as with most things here) as it simply depends on whether one believes in what JB says or not!
If we start from a misinformed position we will nearly always end up in wrong position ???
An intriguing question (amongst loads) I would like answered is how did NB end up in that awful final position?
it looks to me as if you might be able to see someone wedged in that corner, through window in question, but it would be a very accute angle. Apologies for deviating from thread topic...Does the log 'one male plus one female' state 'found on entry'? I thought i had read that. I think found on entry literally means found upon entry to property and not seen through window, thought was female... but mistake... is male.
I've just checked and I may be going off this doc:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,380.0.html
Well the documentary said clearly that one dead male and one dead female were found on entry and that one officer was left guarding the bodies whilst the rest of the team went upstairs by one of the 3 staircases.
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Contradictions seem to be a recurring theme in this case. There are logs indicating that a male and female body were found downstairs, yet there are also a number of police officer witness statements which say they found Ralph body which was mistakenly thought to be a female when looking through the window.
It's up to the individual as to what you believe, but simply repeating one version or the other over and over again doesn't make it real.
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Contradictions seem to be a recurring theme in this case. There are logs indicating that a male and female body were found downstairs, yet there are also a number of police officer witness statements which say they found Ralph body which was mistakenly thought to be a female when looking through the window.
It's up to the individual as to what you believe, but simply repeating one version or the other over and over again doesn't make it real.
Yes it does rather seem to be a futile exercise doesn't it?
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Contradictions seem to be a recurring theme in this case. There are logs indicating that a male and female body were found downstairs, yet there are also a number of police officer witness statements which say they found Ralph body which was mistakenly thought to be a female when looking through the window.
It's up to the individual as to what you believe, but simply repeating one version or the other over and over again doesn't make it real.
I'm veering towards the subsequent statements as being designed to undermine the initial logs rather than explain them. But that's consistent with the position I hold on the case. It might help if all logs and pocket books were made available. I know I'm labouring the point... but... found on entry to property = found on entry to property.
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So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?
(http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jan2011/1/1/jeremy-bamber-image-2-874416078.jpg)
No, that's the kitchen where Nevill was found. The police came through the back door to the house, and turned right through another door into the kitchen. You can see the door through which they entered the kitchen in the top right of the photo.
Hi kaldin, the door EP came through into the kitchen is the door I would describe as top centre of the photo (just to the left of the old fashioned tea dispenser on the left hand side of the red aga surround).
It is in this corner of the room that Mike T suggests NB was sat (dead) in the chair prior to EP pushing the door open and NB then somehow being left in that "precarious position" propped on the overturned chair with his head positioned in the coal scuttle.
It may also be of interest that you can see the window edge (top left of photo) and if NB was sat in the chair in the corner of that room it may, as Mike T has suggested on many occasions, be difficult to see anyone in that position from the window!
back on topic: this is always going to be difficult to establish (as with most things here) as it simply depends on whether one believes in what JB says or not!
If we start from a misinformed position we will nearly always end up in wrong position ???
An intriguing question (amongst loads) I would like answered is how did NB end up in that awful final position?
Yes - apologies - I meant centre. The door on the right is the door to the stairs.
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Does anyone know when this photo was taken? I have seen another one from the opposite angle, where it is tidy like on this one. And why were these photos taken? And by whom?
OK, I´ll STOP being such a noob now!! ::) :P
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Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.
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Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.
So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??
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Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.
So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??
I take it the rifle did not have the sights attached on the night in question? According to Anthony Pargeter,the silencer and sights were attatched the weekend before but I guess that does not prove anything.He handled it so his prints should have been on the rifle too! Just cant understand why JB would claim through his statements and subsequent trial,that he left the gun on the kitchen table.He could have had his defence team correct this at any time.At what stage did he "remember" that he actually left the rifle on the settle in the scullery?
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Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.
So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??
That question would apply equally to Jeremy or Sheila. Weren't the sights found packed in their own box or wrapped in polythene or something? That suggests that they had removed from the gun prior to that night for some reason.
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Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.
So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??
That question would apply equally to Jeremy or Sheila. Weren't the sights found packed in their own box or wrapped in polythene or something? That suggests that they had removed from the gun prior to that night for some reason.
Personally,I think that if Ralph had seen rifle on table or settle,he would have put it away.The settle was just a few footsteps away from the office where the gun cupboard was located.It seems very coincidental to me that the very night JB alledgedly leaves a loaded gun laying around,Sheila has a phsycotic episode and blasts everyone to death.If as he claims,Sheila knew how to load guns etc,then surely she could have done this at anytime,with any gun?
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Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.
So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??
That question would apply equally to Jeremy or Sheila. Weren't the sights found packed in their own box or wrapped in polythene or something? That suggests that they had removed from the gun prior to that night for some reason.
Personally,I think that if Ralph had seen rifle on table or settle,he would have put it away.The settle was just a few footsteps away from the office where the gun cupboard was located.It seems very coincidental to me that the very night JB alledgedly leaves a loaded gun laying around,Sheila has a phsycotic episode and blasts everyone to death.If as he claims,Sheila knew how to load guns etc,then surely she could have done this at anytime,with any gun?
Perhaps Nevill would have put it away, I agree. If Jeremy is telling the truth, even he doesn't know if the gun was left out or not, all he knows is that he left it out. If Sheila did do it, she could have gone to the gun cupboard and got the gun - she had seen Jeremy with it earlier that evening and perhaps she remembered that.
I'm not saying she did, just that she could have done.
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Yes.You have made a good point there.
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Someone, probably Ralph had been around locking doors etc, If he was as fastidious as they claim he would have put the gun away. Also there was the shotgun with Shiela's prints on it that was taken out. Both Shiela and Jeremy must have known where the guns were kept so Jeremy leaving the gun out or not, doesn't make much difference either way.
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Did Jeremy go out and shoot rabbits?
Or did he just hear rabbits, loaded the gun, then changed his mind about going outside?
Or did he just load the gun to leave it around?
I can´t help thinking that he wasn´t too lazy to load the gun, but too lazy to put it in the cupboard.
I can´t help thinking further that if he was behind the shootings, he wouldn´t have had to make that story about the loaded rifle up. There were a lot of accessible firearms in the house in any case.
If he did it, he might have left the gun on the settle for his own/a hitman´s convenience; but there wouldn´t have been any reason to talk about it to the police, would there?
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Did Jeremy go out and shoot rabbits?
Or did he just hear rabbits, loaded the gun, then changed his mind about going outside?
Or did he just load the gun to leave it around?
I can´t help thinking that he wasn´t too lazy to load the gun, but too lazy to put it in the cupboard.
I can´t help thinking further that if he was behind the shootings, he wouldn´t have had to make that story about the loaded rifle up. There were a lot of accessible firearms in the house in any case.
If he did it, he might have left the gun on the settle for his own/a hitman´s convenience; but there wouldn´t have been any reason to talk about it to the police, would there?
The thought of them leaving loaded guns lying around a house with 6 year-old playing horrifies me.
I seems that this practice didn't change when the boys were there or is that another old wives tale?
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I presume Jeremy was at the house that night. June didn't mention to her sister that he'd been there. Did someone hear him drive away?
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yes a neighbour heard him drive away
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Why did he have June's bicycle at the cottage anyway??
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it was at jbs place because june had lent it to julie to use
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If the bike was used and the route is thought to be along the seawall, doesn't it take you right through another farmers yard?
I've walked the seawall from Goldhanger and i'm sure theres a farm between WHF and the seawall.
I know there is another route but that would take you past the cottages.
I've read somewhere it was an old shopper bike, hardly a great escape option for a quick getaway.
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it was a sit up and beg type bike
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It may be a mistake to concentrate on one gun, and where Jeremy left it, in my opinion, since if two or more different weapons were used during the incident, it matters just as much where these other weapons had been left, was placed in storage at the scene?
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If the bike was used and the route is thought to be along the seawall, doesn't it take you right through another farmers yard?
I've walked the seawall from Goldhanger and i'm sure theres a farm between WHF and the seawall.
I know there is another route but that would take you past the cottages.
I've read somewhere it was an old shopper bike, hardly a great escape option for a quick getaway.
Andrea's right, it was a sit up and beg, bone shaker of a bike.
In my opinion, there is no way on God's earth that anyone could have cycled the sea wall path on that old bone shaker or any other bike.
Remember Gen, the sea wall path as it is now is nothing like it was during the 1980s. The sea wall and path have been radically improved since then in order to comply with Health & Safety requirements.
Around 25 years ago, that path was narrower and crumbling, the path went right up to the very edge of the sea wall in places, where it crumbled away. There were highly dangerous rocks below. I have old photographs of the sea wall and path which show this I've tried to post these here but the site will not accept my scans for some reason.
It would have been far too risky to cycle that highly precarious route in pitch black darkness or even in daylight. Anyone who took that risk is likely to have ended up on the rocks below.
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It may be a mistake to concentrate on one gun, and where Jeremy left it, in my opinion, since if two or more different weapons were used during the incident, it matters just as much where these other weapons had been left, was placed in storage at the scene?
There's no doubt that the Anshutz was involved though, and I think it's important to know where Jeremy said he left it. Do you know where he left it?
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i thought he left in on the settle
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It may be a mistake to concentrate on one gun, and where Jeremy left it, in my opinion, since if two or more different weapons were used during the incident, it matters just as much where these other weapons had been left, was placed in storage at the scene?
There's no doubt that the Anshutz was involved though, and I think it's important to know where Jeremy said he left it. Do you know where he left it?
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I know where he told me he left it...
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If the bike was used and the route is thought to be along the seawall, doesn't it take you right through another farmers yard?
I've walked the seawall from Goldhanger and i'm sure theres a farm between WHF and the seawall.
I know there is another route but that would take you past the cottages.
I've read somewhere it was an old shopper bike, hardly a great escape option for a quick getaway.
Andrea's right, it was a sit up and beg, bone shaker of a bike.
In my opinion, there is no way on God's earth that anyone could have cycled the sea wall path on that old bone shaker or any other bike.
Remember Gen, the sea wall path as it is now is nothing like it was during the 1980s. The sea wall and path have been radically improved since then in order to comply with Health & Safety requirements.
Around 25 years ago, that path was narrower and crumbling, the path went right up to the very edge of the sea wall in places, where it crumbled away. There were highly dangerous rocks below. I have old photographs of the sea wall and path which show this I've tried to post these here but the site will not accept my scans for some reason.
It would have been far too risky to cycle that highly precarious route in pitch black darkness or even in daylight. Anyone who took that risk is likely to have ended up on the rocks below.
My thoughts exactly :)
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where mike?
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It may be a mistake to concentrate on one gun, and where Jeremy left it, in my opinion, since if two or more different weapons were used during the incident, it matters just as much where these other weapons had been left, was placed in storage at the scene?
There's no doubt that the Anshutz was involved though, and I think it's important to know where Jeremy said he left it. Do you know where he left it?
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I know where he told me he left it...
Fine. I'm not going to play daft games with you.
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I've just been looking at some older threads at the beginning of this forum and one of them, currently P26, titled "Local Man Hands in Two Guns taken from WHF..." (Dec 29) says that one of the guns was a shotgun and the other was some sort of 'hybrid' in that it had the barrel of a shotgun with the barrel of a .22 rifle beneath it. Was this the gun that made the circular marks on Ralph?
Another one, currently P27 (Dec 27) "Secrets Kept by Essex Police..." is a report of a statement by a local resident who said he heard a shotgun blast between 9.30pm and 10.15pm on 6th Aug. Perhaps things were kicking off earlier in the evening after JB had left WHF.
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If the bike was used and the route is thought to be along the seawall, doesn't it take you right through another farmers yard?
I've walked the seawall from Goldhanger and i'm sure theres a farm between WHF and the seawall.
I know there is another route but that would take you past the cottages.
I've read somewhere it was an old shopper bike, hardly a great escape option for a quick getaway.
Andrea's right, it was a sit up and beg, bone shaker of a bike.
In my opinion, there is no way on God's earth that anyone could have cycled the sea wall path on that old bone shaker or any other bike.
Remember Gen, the sea wall path as it is now is nothing like it was during the 1980s. The sea wall and path have been radically improved since then in order to comply with Health & Safety requirements.
Around 25 years ago, that path was narrower and crumbling, the path went right up to the very edge of the sea wall in places, where it crumbled away. There were highly dangerous rocks below. I have old photographs of the sea wall and path which show this I've tried to post these here but the site will not accept my scans for some reason.
It would have been far too risky to cycle that highly precarious route in pitch black darkness or even in daylight. Anyone who took that risk is likely to have ended up on the rocks below.
The police, the CPS and the jury seemed to believe it was possible.
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I wonder it they ever did a reconstruction.
Using the same bike and at the same time of night, to see how easily it was to do and how long it took to get from WHF to 9 Head Street .
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I wonder it they ever did a reconstruction.
Using the same bike and at the same time of night, to see how easily it was to do and how long it took to get from WHF to 9 Head Street .
Just what I was thinking. Poor soul who drew the short straw!
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dont worry about it sarann :)
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I wonder it they ever did a reconstruction.
Using the same bike and at the same time of night, to see how easily it was to do and how long it took to get from WHF to 9 Head Street .
I don't know whether they did a reconstruction or not.
I do know that police forensics went over the bike, testing for any mud or residues which would have shown that it was used to cycle to WHF or Tolleshunt D'Arcy across the muddy fields in the area at that time - that part of the Summer was wet.
That would have included checks for mud and residues from the coastal path, part of which would have been muddy.
Forensics found that there was no mud or residues on the bike, so it had not been used to cycle to WHF by the murderer.
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If the bike was used and the route is thought to be along the seawall, doesn't it take you right through another farmers yard?
I've walked the seawall from Goldhanger and i'm sure theres a farm between WHF and the seawall.
I know there is another route but that would take you past the cottages.
I've read somewhere it was an old shopper bike, hardly a great escape option for a quick getaway.
Andrea's right, it was a sit up and beg, bone shaker of a bike.
In my opinion, there is no way on God's earth that anyone could have cycled the sea wall path on that old bone shaker or any other bike.
Remember Gen, the sea wall path as it is now is nothing like it was during the 1980s. The sea wall and path have been radically improved since then in order to comply with Health & Safety requirements.
Around 25 years ago, that path was narrower and crumbling, the path went right up to the very edge of the sea wall in places, where it crumbled away. There were highly dangerous rocks below. I have old photographs of the sea wall and path which show this I've tried to post these here but the site will not accept my scans for some reason.
It would have been far too risky to cycle that highly precarious route in pitch black darkness or even in daylight. Anyone who took that risk is likely to have ended up on the rocks below.
The police, the CPS and the jury seemed to believe it was possible.
They didn't after forensics checked it out and found that it had not been used.
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I wonder it they ever did a reconstruction.
Using the same bike and at the same time of night, to see how easily it was to do and how long it took to get from WHF to 9 Head Street .
I don't know whether they did a reconstruction or not.
I do know that police forensics went over the bike, testing for any mud or residues which would have shown that it was used to cycle to WHF or Tolleshunt D'Arcy across the muddy fields in the area at that time - that part of the Summer was wet.
That would have included checks for mud and residues from the coastal path, part of which would have been muddy.
Forensics found that there was no mud or residues on the bike, so it had not been used to cycle to WHF by the murderer.
And didn't Robert Boutflour go along the route searching for tracks, but failed to find any? Perhaps this theory stemned from him.
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If the bike was used and the route is thought to be along the seawall, doesn't it take you right through another farmers yard?
I've walked the seawall from Goldhanger and i'm sure theres a farm between WHF and the seawall.
I know there is another route but that would take you past the cottages.
I've read somewhere it was an old shopper bike, hardly a great escape option for a quick getaway.
Andrea's right, it was a sit up and beg, bone shaker of a bike.
In my opinion, there is no way on God's earth that anyone could have cycled the sea wall path on that old bone shaker or any other bike.
Remember Gen, the sea wall path as it is now is nothing like it was during the 1980s. The sea wall and path have been radically improved since then in order to comply with Health & Safety requirements.
Around 25 years ago, that path was narrower and crumbling, the path went right up to the very edge of the sea wall in places, where it crumbled away. There were highly dangerous rocks below. I have old photographs of the sea wall and path which show this I've tried to post these here but the site will not accept my scans for some reason.
It would have been far too risky to cycle that highly precarious route in pitch black darkness or even in daylight. Anyone who took that risk is likely to have ended up on the rocks below.
The police, the CPS and the jury seemed to believe it was possible.
My apology, I meant to state that police forensics didn't think it has been used. Perhaps this is another issue that the defence should check out?
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I think it's a mad theory anyway.
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I think it's a mad theory anyway.
Not very feasible is it?
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I think it's a mad theory anyway.
Well said, Kaldin. +1
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The bike didn't have any lights, unless Jeremy held a torch in one hand and the handlebars with the other. I don't think so!
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The bike didn't have any lights, unless Jeremy held a torch in one hand and the handlebars with the other. I don't think so!
As he wobbled all over the place in pitch darkness at the edge of, what in the 1980s was in places, a narrowing, twisting, dipping and crumbling sea wall path?
You deserve +2 for that excellent observation, lebaleb.
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The bike didn't have any lights, unless Jeremy held a torch in one hand and the handlebars with the other. I don't think so!
As he wobbled all over the place in pitch darkness at the edge of, what in the 1980s was in places, a narrowing, twisting, dipping and crumbling sea wall path?
You deserve +2 for that excellent observation, lebaleb.
Twisting and dripping :o
Yes must be impossible then. ::)
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I wonder it they ever did a reconstruction.
Using the same bike and at the same time of night, to see how easily it was to do and how long it took to get from WHF to 9 Head Street .
I don't know whether they did a reconstruction or not.
I do know that police forensics went over the bike, testing for any mud or residues which would have shown that it was used to cycle to WHF or Tolleshunt D'Arcy across the muddy fields in the area at that time - that part of the Summer was wet.
That would have included checks for mud and residues from the coastal path, part of which would have been muddy.
Forensics found that there was no mud or residues on the bike, so it had not been used to cycle to WHF by the murderer.
I don't know where you picked up this snippet but the side walls of the bike were caked in mud establishing that the bicycle had been driven through deep mud.
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The mud on the bicycle tyres was reported by Robert Boutflour but unsubstantiated. Police examined the bike and tracks were looked for but no evidence was found connecting the bike to the crime.
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I wonder it they ever did a reconstruction.
Using the same bike and at the same time of night, to see how easily it was to do and how long it took to get from WHF to 9 Head Street .
I don't know whether they did a reconstruction or not.
I do know that police forensics went over the bike, testing for any mud or residues which would have shown that it was used to cycle to WHF or Tolleshunt D'Arcy across the muddy fields in the area at that time - that part of the Summer was wet.
That would have included checks for mud and residues from the coastal path, part of which would have been muddy.
Forensics found that there was no mud or residues on the bike, so it had not been used to cycle to WHF by the murderer.
I don't know where you picked up this snippet but the side walls of the bike were caked in mud establishing that the bicycle had been driven through deep mud.
Well that could have happened at any time. It's not clear how much the bicycle was used generally or if it was cleaned after each use. It probably wasn't if it was an old one.
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I think the point was made that it was unusual for the bicycle to have mud on its side walls since that would have indicated usage off road. That is why Robert Boutflour decided to explore the paths around the farm to see if he could find recently made cycle tracks.
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I think the point was made that it was unusual for the bicycle to have mud on its side walls since that would have indicated usage off road. That is why Robert Boutflour decided to explore the paths around the farm to see if he could find recently made cycle tracks.
But didn't he have to resign himself to the fact that he could find any such tracks or was it that the heavy rain had obscured them?