Where Jeremy said he left the gun

[Roch]

So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?

No, that's the kitchen where Nevill was found. The police came through the back door to the house, and turned right through another door into the kitchen. You can see the door through which they entered  the kitchen in the top right of the photo.

Hi kaldin, the door EP came through into the kitchen is the door I would describe as top centre of the photo (just to the left of the old fashioned tea dispenser on the left hand side of the red aga surround).

It is in this corner of the room that Mike T suggests NB was sat (dead) in the chair prior to EP pushing the door open and NB then somehow being left in that "precarious position" propped on the overturned chair with his head positioned in the coal scuttle.

It may also be of interest that you can see the window edge (top left of photo) and if NB was sat in the chair in the corner of that room it may, as Mike T has suggested on many occasions, be difficult to see anyone in that position from the window!

back on topic: this is always going to be difficult to establish (as with most things here) as it simply depends on whether one believes in what JB says or not!

If we start from a misinformed position we will nearly always end up in wrong position   

An intriguing question (amongst loads) I would like answered is how did NB end up in that awful final position?

it looks to me as if you might be able to see someone wedged in that corner, through window in question, but it would be a very accute angle.  Apologies for deviating from thread topic...Does the log 'one male plus one female' state 'found on entry'?  I thought i had read that.  I think found on entry literally means found upon entry to property and not seen through window, thought was female... but mistake... is male.

I've just checked and I may be going off this doc:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,380.0.html

[grahameb]

So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?

No, that's the kitchen where Nevill was found. The police came through the back door to the house, and turned right through another door into the kitchen. You can see the door through which they entered  the kitchen in the top right of the photo.

Hi kaldin, the door EP came through into the kitchen is the door I would describe as top centre of the photo (just to the left of the old fashioned tea dispenser on the left hand side of the red aga surround).

It is in this corner of the room that Mike T suggests NB was sat (dead) in the chair prior to EP pushing the door open and NB then somehow being left in that "precarious position" propped on the overturned chair with his head positioned in the coal scuttle.

It may also be of interest that you can see the window edge (top left of photo) and if NB was sat in the chair in the corner of that room it may, as Mike T has suggested on many occasions, be difficult to see anyone in that position from the window!

back on topic: this is always going to be difficult to establish (as with most things here) as it simply depends on whether one believes in what JB says or not!

If we start from a misinformed position we will nearly always end up in wrong position   

An intriguing question (amongst loads) I would like answered is how did NB end up in that awful final position?

it looks to me as if you might be able to see someone wedged in that corner, through window in question, but it would be a very accute angle.  Apologies for deviating from thread topic...Does the log 'one male plus one female' state 'found on entry'?  I thought i had read that.  I think found on entry literally means found upon entry to property and not seen through window, thought was female... but mistake... is male.

I've just checked and I may be going off this doc:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,380.0.html

Well the documentary said clearly that one dead male and one dead female were found on entry and that one officer was left guarding the  bodies whilst the rest of the team went upstairs by one of the 3 staircases.

[Hartley]

Contradictions seem to be a recurring theme in this case. There are logs indicating that a male and female body were found downstairs, yet there are also a number of police officer witness statements which say they found Ralph body which was mistakenly thought to be a female when looking through the window.

It's up to the individual as to what you believe, but simply repeating one version or the other over and over again doesn't make it real.

[grahameb]

Contradictions seem to be a recurring theme in this case. There are logs indicating that a male and female body were found downstairs, yet there are also a number of police officer witness statements which say they found Ralph body which was mistakenly thought to be a female when looking through the window.

It's up to the individual as to what you believe, but simply repeating one version or the other over and over again doesn't make it real.

Yes it does rather seem to be a futile exercise doesn't it?

[Roch]

Contradictions seem to be a recurring theme in this case. There are logs indicating that a male and female body were found downstairs, yet there are also a number of police officer witness statements which say they found Ralph body which was mistakenly thought to be a female when looking through the window.

It's up to the individual as to what you believe, but simply repeating one version or the other over and over again doesn't make it real.

I'm veering towards the subsequent statements as being designed to undermine the initial logs rather than explain them.  But that's consistent with the position I hold on the case.  It might help if all logs and pocket books were made available.  I know I'm labouring the point... but... found on entry to property = found on entry to property.

[Kaldin]

So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?

No, that's the kitchen where Nevill was found. The police came through the back door to the house, and turned right through another door into the kitchen. You can see the door through which they entered  the kitchen in the top right of the photo.

Hi kaldin, the door EP came through into the kitchen is the door I would describe as top centre of the photo (just to the left of the old fashioned tea dispenser on the left hand side of the red aga surround).

It is in this corner of the room that Mike T suggests NB was sat (dead) in the chair prior to EP pushing the door open and NB then somehow being left in that "precarious position" propped on the overturned chair with his head positioned in the coal scuttle.

It may also be of interest that you can see the window edge (top left of photo) and if NB was sat in the chair in the corner of that room it may, as Mike T has suggested on many occasions, be difficult to see anyone in that position from the window!

back on topic: this is always going to be difficult to establish (as with most things here) as it simply depends on whether one believes in what JB says or not!

If we start from a misinformed position we will nearly always end up in wrong position   

An intriguing question (amongst loads) I would like answered is how did NB end up in that awful final position?

Yes - apologies - I meant centre. The door on the right is the door to the stairs.

[Alias]

Does anyone know when this photo was taken? I have seen another one from the opposite angle, where it is tidy like on this one. And why were these photos taken? And by whom?
OK, I´ll STOP being such a noob now!!   

[chelmsey]

Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.

[lebaleb]

Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.

So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??

[chelmsey]

Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.

So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??

I take it the rifle did not have the sights attached on the night in question? According to Anthony Pargeter,the silencer and sights were attatched the weekend before but I guess that does not prove anything.He handled it so his prints should have been on the rifle too! Just cant understand why JB would claim through his statements and subsequent trial,that he left the gun on the kitchen table.He could have had his defence team correct this at any time.At what stage did he "remember" that he actually left the rifle on the settle in the scullery?

[Kaldin]

Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.

So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??

That question would apply equally to Jeremy or Sheila. Weren't the sights found packed in their own box or wrapped in polythene or something? That suggests that they had removed from the gun prior to that night for some reason.

[chelmsey]

Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.

So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??

That question would apply equally to Jeremy or Sheila. Weren't the sights found packed in their own box or wrapped in polythene or something? That suggests that they had removed from the gun prior to that night for some reason.

Personally,I think that if Ralph had seen rifle on table or settle,he would have put it away.The settle was just a few footsteps away from the office where the gun cupboard was located.It seems very coincidental to me that the very night JB alledgedly leaves a loaded gun laying around,Sheila has a phsycotic episode and blasts everyone to death.If as he claims,Sheila knew how to load guns etc,then surely she could have done this at anytime,with any gun?

[Kaldin]

Kaldin.........If you look at the 2002 appeal document,it states that JB left the gun on the kitchen table with a full magazine and ammunition nearby.It also states that a silencer and sights were kept on the rifle because,regarding the sights especially,a screwdriver was apparantly needed to remove them and this was considered too time consuming to bother with.

So the killer grabbed the rifle, then went to find a screwdriver to remove the sights, which was quite a time consuming operation, then the killer went and put the sights away, why??

That question would apply equally to Jeremy or Sheila. Weren't the sights found packed in their own box or wrapped in polythene or something? That suggests that they had removed from the gun prior to that night for some reason.

Personally,I think that if Ralph had seen rifle on table or settle,he would have put it away.The settle was just a few footsteps away from the office where the gun cupboard was located.It seems very coincidental to me that the very night JB alledgedly leaves a loaded gun laying around,Sheila has a phsycotic episode and blasts everyone to death.If as he claims,Sheila knew how to load guns etc,then surely she could have done this at anytime,with any gun?

Perhaps Nevill would have put it away, I agree. If Jeremy is telling the truth, even he doesn't know if the gun was left out or not, all he knows is that he left it out. If Sheila did do it, she could have gone to the gun cupboard and got the gun - she had seen Jeremy with it earlier that evening and perhaps she remembered that.

I'm not saying she did, just that she could have done.

[chelmsey]

Yes.You have made a good point there.

[lebaleb]

Someone, probably Ralph had been around locking doors etc, If he was as fastidious as they claim he would have put the gun away. Also there was the shotgun with Shiela's prints on it that was taken out. Both Shiela and Jeremy must have known where the guns were kept so Jeremy leaving the gun out or not, doesn't make much difference either way.