Where Jeremy said he left the gun

[HMEssex]

There might have been another door from the kitchen too. There was some kind of drinks room or cupboard, but I'm not sure how big that is.

I could do with a 'drinks room'.  Everything might seem clearer 

[chochokeira]

An omelette, perhaps?

Ooh, I'd love an omelette but I can't be bothered to make one. You would have to live on omelette's, quiches and scrambles if you had 70 -100 eggs in your kitchen and you'd be in and out of the store in the back kitchen's scullery all of the time, wouldn't you?

So, does that mean the two buckets containing Sheila's clothes could have been in the store room, the scullery and the back kitchen simultaneously: because all of these rooms are part of one rambling back kitchen complex full of nooks and crannies?

It would be useful to know where the clothes were, and I think Mike has mentioned that before. If they were in the area where the gun was, she could have seen it then.

I doubt the gun would have been in the scullery. If Jeremy did go out to shoot rabbits and then come back in, he's more likely to have left the gun near the back door, and the scullery is not near the back door.

Do you not think that Jeremy had in all likelihood left that gun on the settle many times, because, muttering as he cleared up such stuff, that's all part of of a father's job description? Sheila and everyone else would have known that too: rural farming families, in my experience, have levels of intimacy and mutual knowledge which often goes beyond that of families in towns, they spend more time together for a start.

So here was are in this rambling old farmhouse during the 1980s a time when codes of conduct in respect of guns were far more lax than they are now. Everyone in the family knows what their share of the chores are here. Jeremy does what thousands of young farmers have done for centuries after a shattering day's graft in the fields: kicks off his muddy boots for mum to clean and drops his stuff at the first opportune point, the settle where he's chucked his stuff on arrival for decades. After all, what else would a settle for? The women and children of the family know not to touch the family's guns which, anyway, are all over the place.

[Kaldin]

There might have been another door from the kitchen too. There was some kind of drinks room or cupboard, but I'm not sure how big that is.

When I joined this forum the first thing I did was ask Mike for a plan of the house. 






I could do with a 'drinks room'.  Everything might seem clearer 

[joolz1975]

On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.

But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!

[Kaldin]

On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.

But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!

Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.

[chelmsey]

On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.

But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!

Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.

Kaldin..........Ann Eaton stated that the clothes were soaking in a bucket by the aga.
I think you will find that JB changed his story 3 times as regards to where he left the rifle.I do believe that when first questioned,he stated that he left it on the kitchen table.Realising that story probably wouldnt wash because it would be likely Ralph would put it away,he then stated that he left it leaning against the wall of either the kitchen or scullery (not sure which).JB eventually went with the explanation that he left it on the settle in the scullery.I believe Mike has JBs police statements.Maybe you could ask him to post them in full to see what he actually said?

[chelmsey]

Oh.........and according to Ann Eaton,JB told police that he didnt return the rifle to the gun cupboard because it wasnt usually kept there as it did not fit in there with the silencer attached.It was proved that the rifle did in fact fit in there.As you  would know,JB stated at trial that he was simply "too lazy" to put it back in the gun cupboard.

[lebaleb]

On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.

But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!

Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.

Kaldin..........Ann Eaton stated that the clothes were soaking in a bucket by the aga.
I think you will find that JB changed his story 3 times as regards to where he left the rifle.I do believe that when first questioned,he stated that he left it on the kitchen table.Realising that story probably wouldnt wash because it would be likely Ralph would put it away,he then stated that he left it leaning against the wall of either the kitchen or scullery (not sure which).JB eventually went with the explanation that he left it on the settle in the scullery.I believe Mike has JBs police statements.Maybe you could ask him to post them in full to see what he actually said?

It's pure speculation to say that Jeremy changed his story because he realised saying he left the gun on the kitchen table 'wouldn't wash'. Do you always remember where you put things? People who smoke lots of cannabis have notoriously bad memories.

[Kaldin]

On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.

But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!

Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.

Kaldin..........Ann Eaton stated that the clothes were soaking in a bucket by the aga.
I think you will find that JB changed his story 3 times as regards to where he left the rifle.I do believe that when first questioned,he stated that he left it on the kitchen table.Realising that story probably wouldnt wash because it would be likely Ralph would put it away,he then stated that he left it leaning against the wall of either the kitchen or scullery (not sure which).JB eventually went with the explanation that he left it on the settle in the scullery.I believe Mike has JBs police statements.Maybe you could ask him to post them in full to see what he actually said?

Thanks. If the clothes were in the kitchen then I'm not sure why Sheila would go to the back kitchen area.

If Jeremy did leave the gun on the table I would think that Neville would put it away. The table had been in use that evening and it may have been laid for breakfast, so I'm not convinced Jeremy would have put the gun on there anyway. The obvious place to leave it would be near the back door.

On the other hand, the ammunition was in the kitchen near the phone. Hmmmm.

[Kaldin]

Oh.........and according to Ann Eaton,JB told police that he didnt return the rifle to the gun cupboard because it wasnt usually kept there as it did not fit in there with the silencer attached.It was proved that the rifle did in fact fit in there.As you  would know,JB stated at trial that he was simply "too lazy" to put it back in the gun cupboard.

But Jeremy said the silencer wasn't attached. If it was usually attached then he would have had to take it off before he went out to find the rabbits.

[chelmsey]

Oh.........and according to Ann Eaton,JB told police that he didnt return the rifle to the gun cupboard because it wasnt usually kept there as it did not fit in there with the silencer attached.It was proved that the rifle did in fact fit in there.As you  would know,JB stated at trial that he was simply "too lazy" to put it back in the gun cupboard.

But Jeremy said the silencer wasn't attached. If it was usually attached then he would have had to take it off before he went out to find the rabbits.

Yes.In earlier questioning,he had stated that the silencer was attatched.That story changed too.People can smite me all they like but the trouble is that the murders were a very long time ago now and peoples memories fade.However,Im pretty good at remembering what people say! I know its going off topic,but I also remember clearly that JB was supposed to have stated that during the phone call from Ralph,he had heard gunshots! Could all be pure speculation or it could simply be the truth that JB changed his story a few times.And the truth is all I am interested in.

[chelmsey]

On the documentary the other night it clearly states that Jeremy stated he left the gun on the kitchen table.

But then again i think the documentary was of a poor standard!

Yes, it says that in the Appeal document too. It's just on the "official" website it says something else.

Kaldin..........Ann Eaton stated that the clothes were soaking in a bucket by the aga.
I think you will find that JB changed his story 3 times as regards to where he left the rifle.I do believe that when first questioned,he stated that he left it on the kitchen table.Realising that story probably wouldnt wash because it would be likely Ralph would put it away,he then stated that he left it leaning against the wall of either the kitchen or scullery (not sure which).JB eventually went with the explanation that he left it on the settle in the scullery.I believe Mike has JBs police statements.Maybe you could ask him to post them in full to see what he actually said?

It's pure speculation to say that Jeremy changed his story because he realised saying he left the gun on the kitchen table 'wouldn't wash'. Do you always remember where you put things? People who smoke lots of cannabis have notoriously bad memories.

Yes I agree it is pure speculation.Could easily have been a slip of the memory.It is also pure speculation that JB is innocent though as well.Considering the lack of "hard facts" surrounding the case,speculation is unfortunately all we have!

[alexy]

i am new to this forum and this particular debate.... so forgive me if i go over old ground.  Having watched the tv programme it inspired me to carry out some research into this case - and it seems to me that the conviction was based entirely around the word of a jilted girlfriend and 'extended family members' who have done very nicely out if it ... reference scratches appearing 34 days after the crime ... you will tell from this that I have severe doubts about this conviction.

It would help if the PII was lifted and those that know far more about than this me were allowed to review all that went on - until then .... keep guessing i suppose.

[Newbury1]

i am new to this forum and this particular debate.... so forgive me if i go over old ground.  Having watched the tv programme it inspired me to carry out some research into this case - and it seems to me that the conviction was based entirely around the word of a jilted girlfriend and 'extended family members' who have done very nicely out if it ... reference scratches appearing 34 days after the crime ... you will tell from this that I have severe doubts about this conviction.

It would help if the PII was lifted and those that know far more about than this me were allowed to review all that went on - until then .... keep guessing i suppose.

Hi alexy and welcome.

JB's conviction is based on three main areas (amongst many other topics)

1) JM's witness statements against JB (as you refer to above)
2) The silencer issue (and it being found by the relatives)
3) The 3.26am phone call JB is alleged to have received from his father saying SC had got the gun etc. which the jury (majority) thought JB was lying about.

Most on here have some doubts about some of the evidence (either way), and it is evident that arguments and counter arguments are the norm here........ Kaldin (as an independent) gives balanced thoughts to most of the posts on here and opens up some new areas of interest (like this one).

Most of the posters on here are reasonably balanced but from time to time it flares up with the occasional nutter 

Happy posting and a +1 for starting the journey   


kaldin - sorry about going of thread 

[Newbury1]

So, I take it this is the 'back kitchen' according to the plan?

No, that's the kitchen where Nevill was found. The police came through the back door to the house, and turned right through another door into the kitchen. You can see the door through which they entered  the kitchen in the top right of the photo.

Hi kaldin, the door EP came through into the kitchen is the door I would describe as top centre of the photo (just to the left of the old fashioned tea dispenser on the left hand side of the red aga surround).

It is in this corner of the room that Mike T suggests NB was sat (dead) in the chair prior to EP pushing the door open and NB then somehow being left in that "precarious position" propped on the overturned chair with his head positioned in the coal scuttle.

It may also be of interest that you can see the window edge (top left of photo) and if NB was sat in the chair in the corner of that room it may, as Mike T has suggested on many occasions, be difficult to see anyone in that position from the window!

back on topic: this is always going to be difficult to establish (as with most things here) as it simply depends on whether one believes in what JB says or not!

If we start from a misinformed position we will nearly always end up in wrong position   

An intriguing question (amongst loads) I would like answered is how did NB end up in that awful final position?