Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: ngb1066 on October 21, 2025, 04:19:PM
-
The long awaited New Yorker podcast about the Jeremy Bamber case is now scheduled for release on 28th October. Here is a link to a press release with details and a short trailer:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/press-room/in-the-dark-releases-blood-relatives-an-examination-of-a-notorious-british-crime
It looks as if it is going to be detailed because it is in six parts. It will be very interesting to hear this. The trailer includes a small clip of Milbank speaking.
-
The only interesting thing will be hearing Millbank speak. If it is Millbank & not an actor saying aledged quotes from him.
Millbank receiving a 999 call from WHF and the caller not saying anything is refuted by Burrell's WS. But was the only new claim The New Yorker made.
-
Six episodes sounds huge just to repeat what has already been said hundreds of times before since 1985.
But no surprise considering how long the 2024 article was.
-
Must admit will be interesting to hear Milibanks voice.
Fruitless though moving forward wise as the bloke is deceased.
-
Must admit will be interesting to hear Milibanks voice.
Fruitless though moving forward wise as the bloke is deceased.
That depends, because if what he said in the interview, taken in context, is clear that a 999 call was made then the Campaign Team would be right, but if taken in context he said something else then it would prove that Heidi had been taken in by the Campaign Team.
The contemporaneous evidence shows that at 6:09, "999" was just being used to listen in.
-
That depends, because if what he said in the interview, taken in context, is clear that a 999 call was made then the Campaign Team would be right, but if taken in context he said something else then it would prove that Heidi had been taken in by the Campaign Team.
The contemporaneous evidence shows that at 6:09, "999" was just being used to listen in.
It also shows that the line status at WHF changed from off the hook to engaged at 05.47.
-
That depends, because if what he said in the interview, taken in context, is clear that a 999 call was made then the Campaign Team would be right, but if taken in context he said something else then it would prove that Heidi had been taken in by the Campaign Team.
The contemporaneous evidence shows that at 6:09, "999" was just being used to listen in.
Dont know how much it would amount to, if its just an audio clip it could be anybody speaking and also as Mr Milibank is no longer with us it cant be challenged by a respondant KC at any subsequent appeal hearing.
Any layman especially the judiciary would be highly skeptical.
-
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Neil.
-
Main points of episode 2 -
DB spoke. As usual.
AE & PE did not speak. As usual.
DB said Jeremy & June had a poor relationship.
Jeremy liked to go to strip clubs.
RB believed Sheila slept through the massacre and was woken by Jeremy.
DB & AE are not on good terms.
RB believed Jeremy may have worn a wet suit. As it would be easy to wash blood off.
DB repeated that Jeremy had asked Nevill to leave the cash in the caravan office safe. A few hours before he broke in.
-
Episode 3 was interesting. As it was interaction between Heidi & Bamber.
Hearing him cry & talking about 'mum's engagement ring' made me agree he 'should have been an actor'.
-
Bamber agrees he asked the police to enter WHF straight away. The podcast says the police believe this was because he wanted everything done and dusted as soon as possible. With the minimum of fuss & attention.
I always thought he would have preferred a siege situation to have arisen. But either could have worked for him.
He probably suspected the first handful of officers who arrived would not go into WHF after he gave them his narrative. So was prepared for a long wait outside.
-
Bamber's reason for not dialling 999 makes no sense - 'I didn't know if it was an emergency'.
So why call Chelmsford Police?
-
Bamber's reason for not dialling 999 makes no sense - 'I didn't know if it was an emergency'.
So why call Chelmsford Police?
Exactly, especially as he knew Nevill would want the incident hushed up, which was the reason for Jeremy's assertion his father telephoned him in the first place.
-
On the night - Nevill rang me as he didn't like to involve the authorities. So I called them!
In 2010, Nevill did call the police.
-
Listened to episode 3
Maybe Heidi should have thrown in the AM question.
-
Jeremy said he thought Nevills reaction would be " For fuck sake why have you phoned the police for "
-
999 reference, Jeremy didn't think it was an emergency "
-
Jeremy breaks down on the podcast.
" It was really frightening"
" How the fuck am I going to cope "
-
Listened to episode 3
Maybe Heidi should have thrown in the AM question.
I cannot see it on the website. Has it been taken down?
-
I cannot see it on the website. Has it been taken down?
Which website, Bubo?
-
Which website, Bubo?
The main New Yorker site.
-
The main New Yorker site.
Yes, you can watch all six episodes on the main site if you subscribe.
How did Adam and ILB manage to see episode three? I have only found the first two episodes to view for free, the JB campaign team posted them over on Twitter, Bubo,
-
Can anyone please post up a readable version of the Guardian article?
-
Yes, you can watch all six episodes on the main site if you subscribe.
How did Adam and ILB manage to see episode three? I have only found the first two episodes to view for free, the JB campaign team posted them over on Twitter, Bubo,
I haven’t listened to it, has the Millbank interview been on and how did it seem Snow?
-
Yes, you can watch all six episodes on the main site if you subscribe.
How did Adam and ILB manage to see episode three? I have only found the first two episodes to view for free, the JB campaign team posted them over on Twitter, Bubo,
https://play.prx.org/listen?ge=prx_5770_f7fef079-52b9-4d45-8629-a246fc4de586&uf=https%3A%2F%2Fpublicfeeds.net%2Ff%2F5770%2Fin-the-dark
-
I haven’t listened to it, has the Millbank interview been on and how did it seem Snow?
People who have heard it are now saying Millbank heard noises inside WHF after he started monitoring the open line from 6.09am.
This is different to him receiving a call from inside WHF at 6.09am.
-
I haven’t listened to it, has the Millbank interview been on and how did it seem Snow?
The episodes are being released every week as far as I know, HB, but if you have a paid subscription to the New Yorker magazine you can listen to all six episodes right now.
I am not subscribed so haven't heard the Milbank interview yet which is in episode six I believe.
I have only listened to the first two episodes over on Twitter, but Adam and ILB seem to have listened to episode three too, I dont know where they found it! I think the episodes are released on a tuesday.
So anyway, no, I haven't heard the Milbank interview yet, HB, but we will be able to listen to it for free in three weeks or so I believe.
-
https://play.prx.org/listen?ge=prx_5770_f7fef079-52b9-4d45-8629-a246fc4de586&uf=https%3A%2F%2Fpublicfeeds.net%2Ff%2F5770%2Fin-the-dark
Ah! Thanks, handyman!
-
People who have heard it are now saying Millbank heard noises inside WHF after he started monitoring the open line from 6.09am.
This is different to him receiving a call from inside WHF at 6.09am.
Oh right thanks Adam
-
The episodes are being released every week as far as I know, HB, but if you have a paid subscription to the New Yorker magazine you can listen to all six episodes right now.
I am not subscribed so haven't heard the Milbank interview yet which is in episode six I believe.
I have only listened to the first two episodes over on Twitter, but Adam and ILB seem to have listened to episode three too, I dont know where they found it! I think the episodes are released on a tuesday.
So anyway, no, I haven't heard the Milbank interview yet, HB, but we will be able to listen to it for free in three weeks or so I believe.
Thanks Snow
-
An officer 40 years later saying he thought he heard noises inside WHF when monitoring the open line will not be sufficient. As all the forensic and circumstantial evidence confirms guilt.
Besides which Crispy was inside WHF. If he can shoot Sheila as Bamber suggested, he can also make noises.
-
An officer 40 years later saying he thought he heard noises inside WHF when monitoring the open line will not be sufficient. As all the forensic and circumstantial evidence confirms guilt.
Besides which Crispy was inside WHF. If he can shoot Sheila as Bamber suggested, he can also make noises.
Well we haven't heard the Milbank interview yet, Adam. so we cant just say too much at the moment, can we?
-
Well we haven't heard the Milbank interview yet, Adam. so we cant just say too much at the moment, can we?
There was also the strange comment Milbank made years ago to a reporter Snow about the 999 call.
-
There was also the strange comment Milbank made years ago to a reporter Snow about the 999 call.
What was that again, Rob? I cant remember!
-
What was that again, Rob? I cant remember!
I will try and locate it Snow I may be mistaken but there was a post by Roch a while ago if I remember correctly?
I thought Millbank made a strange comment after being approached by a reporter, but could have been the Met?
-
He sounds pretty much the same as when I saw him 30 odd years ago.
Although me personally I believe the engagement June ring thing was a bit of a put on act ( all the theatric tears etc) I may be wrong.
But then again as I've not spent 40 years as a CAT A it's difficult to cast judgement.
When Heidi Blake said " Read the room Jeremy" I think she had a memory lapse and forgot she was talking to one or the UK longest serving prisoners.
-
I will try and locate it Snow I may be mistaken but there was a post by Roch a while ago if I remember correctly?
I thought Millbank made a strange comment after being approached by a reporter, but could have been the Met?
Well I probably saw it too, Rob, but as time goes by you do start to forget things.
-
He sounds pretty much the same as when I saw him 30 odd years ago.
Although me personally I believe the engagement June ring thing was a bit of a put on act ( all the theatric tears etc) I may be wrong.
But then again as I've not spent 40 years as a CAT A it's difficult to cast judgement.
When Heidi Blake said " Read the room Jeremy" I think she had a memory lapse and forgot she was talking to one or the UK longest serving prisoners.
Haven't had time to listen to episode 3 yet, its always good to hear the man himself talking, ILB,
-
This was Simon Kelly's take on it:
Having now listened to all of the New Yorker podcast, here’s my thoughts on it. Let’s look at what was said first.
- Barbara Wilson confirmed Nevill and June were discussing foster care for the twins. Ainsley wrote in his report to the DPP, that the “only suggestion of foster care” had come from Jeremy Bamber. He also said Jeremy was spreading “misinformation” about this subject. It was described as a “cynical fabrication”. Wilson stated that Jeremy was 100% correct
- Neil Davidson described the handling of crime scene as a “shambles.” That nothing was preserved at all. He confirmed DI Ron Cook had handled the Bible and flicked through the pages before the photos had been taken. He also suggested Cook had moved the gun. He described Cook as a “nightmare.” He also stated that Cook didn’t hold himself to high standards. He also seemed surprised that Cook hadn’t signed the property log for the sound moderator for the 17 days he had it in his possession. Saying this compromised the integrity of the exhibit as no records of it’s whereabouts were made.
- PC Milbank stated that he took a 999 call through the 999 call system at 06.09
He said it was procedure to monitor the line if nobody speaks. He referred to this as if it was an “abandoned call.”
He said a police officer had picked up the phone and told him they were in the house, and that’s when he cut off the call
Gave Heidi Blake 8 reasons why the statement made in his name in 2002 wasn’t genuine
2 statements exist given after the NY article - Both taken by Essex Police. One states Milbank had never spoken to the NY - This is clearly false as Heidi Blake clearly states who she is as she opens the interview
There is some doubt about one of the statements being genuine as Milbank is spelt wrong, and 1 of the ls is crossed out
David Boutflour stated the police took away his and his fathers sound moderaters “within days” of the original blood test on the sound moderator
He said they kept them for “months and months”
He described how he thought he was never going to get them back
He stated he had 2 sound moderators - Its unclear if the police took 2 from him or 1
He clearly stated that his “prints” would have been all over the sound moderator
He admitted trying to unscrew the end nut with significant force
Said his DNA could be in the sound moderator
He said it took him “10 minutes” to realise what he had found
There’s more to cover but I will keep it at that for now. All in all, a brilliant podcast series. HB captures great audio including from Jeremy. He gets very emotional at points during the interviews and that’s a side many won’t have heard.
From an evidence POV - It highlights the flaws in the case, from the fact nothing was preserved to the tampering of the crime scene.
It raises serious questions about why Milbank was scrubbed from the case and why his statement in 2002 was forged
It shows how EP made false statements regarding Jeremy’s story to the DPP - Especially about the foster care issue
David Boutflour’s admissions show EP did have at least 3 sound moderator’s in their possession - Something they have always denied. They also had them in their possession for months and months
This shows how flawed the whole investigation was.
I don’t think Heidi is quite done with this one yet! J4J
-
This was Simon Kelly's take on it:
Having now listened to all of the New Yorker podcast, here’s my thoughts on it. Let’s look at what was said first.
- Barbara Wilson confirmed Nevill and June were discussing foster care for the twins. Ainsley wrote in his report to the DPP, that the “only suggestion of foster care” had come from Jeremy Bamber. He also said Jeremy was spreading “misinformation” about this subject. It was described as a “cynical fabrication”. Wilson stated that Jeremy was 100% correct
- Neil Davidson described the handling of crime scene as a “shambles.” That nothing was preserved at all. He confirmed DI Ron Cook had handled the Bible and flicked through the pages before the photos had been taken. He also suggested Cook had moved the gun. He described Cook as a “nightmare.” He also stated that Cook didn’t hold himself to high standards. He also seemed surprised that Cook hadn’t signed the property log for the sound moderator for the 17 days he had it in his possession. Saying this compromised the integrity of the exhibit as no records of it’s whereabouts were made.
- PC Milbank stated that he took a 999 call through the 999 call system at 06.09
He said it was procedure to monitor the line if nobody speaks. He referred to this as if it was an “abandoned call.”
He said a police officer had picked up the phone and told him they were in the house, and that’s when he cut off the call
Gave Heidi Blake 8 reasons why the statement made in his name in 2002 wasn’t genuine
2 statements exist given after the NY article - Both taken by Essex Police. One states Milbank had never spoken to the NY - This is clearly false as Heidi Blake clearly states who she is as she opens the interview
There is some doubt about one of the statements being genuine as Milbank is spelt wrong, and 1 of the ls is crossed out
David Boutflour stated the police took away his and his fathers sound moderaters “within days” of the original blood test on the sound moderator
He said they kept them for “months and months”
He described how he thought he was never going to get them back
He stated he had 2 sound moderators - Its unclear if the police took 2 from him or 1
He clearly stated that his “prints” would have been all over the sound moderator
He admitted trying to unscrew the end nut with significant force
Said his DNA could be in the sound moderator
He said it took him “10 minutes” to realise what he had found
There’s more to cover but I will keep it at that for now. All in all, a brilliant podcast series. HB captures great audio including from Jeremy. He gets very emotional at points during the interviews and that’s a side many won’t have heard.
From an evidence POV - It highlights the flaws in the case, from the fact nothing was preserved to the tampering of the crime scene.
It raises serious questions about why Milbank was scrubbed from the case and why his statement in 2002 was forged
It shows how EP made false statements regarding Jeremy’s story to the DPP - Especially about the foster care issue
David Boutflour’s admissions show EP did have at least 3 sound moderator’s in their possession - Something they have always denied. They also had them in their possession for months and months
This shows how flawed the whole investigation was.
I don’t think Heidi is quite done with this one yet! J4J
Truth serum!
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,12274.0.html
-
He sounds pretty much the same as when I saw him 30 odd years ago.
Although me personally I believe the engagement June ring thing was a bit of a put on act ( all the theatric tears etc) I may be wrong.
But then again as I've not spent 40 years as a CAT A it's difficult to cast judgement.
When Heidi Blake said " Read the room Jeremy" I think she had a memory lapse and forgot she was talking to one or the UK longest serving prisoners.
Of course it was: a complete fabrication.
-
Main points of episode 2 -
DB spoke. As usual.
AE & PE did not speak. As usual.
DB said Jeremy & June had a poor relationship.
Jeremy liked to go to strip clubs.
RB believed Sheila slept through the massacre and was woken by Jeremy.
DB & AE are not on good terms.
RB believed Jeremy may have worn a wet suit. As it would be easy to wash blood off.
DB repeated that Jeremy had asked Nevill to leave the cash in the caravan office safe. A few hours before he broke in.
I wondered if that was more to do with the relationship between Ann and sister-in-law Karen than sister and brother, who would surely have benefitted financially from Jeremy Bamber's conviction. Maybe David feels cheated out of the Osea Road caravan park, which has proved to be a gold mine.
-
Of course it was: a complete fabrication.
More than likely artificial in fairness.
But I didn't grow up with him so I wouldn't know for certain.
-
More than likely artificial in fairness.
But I didn't grow up with him so I wouldn't know for certain.
It's always difficult with Jeremy to discern truth from fiction, especially with inexperienced interlocutors, cleverly as he interweaves the two.
-
It's always difficult with Jeremy to discern truth from fiction, especially with inexperienced interlocutors, cleverly as he interweaves the two.
He's spent 40 years pushing a door. His grandiose statements of " Imminent freedom " Aren't as bizarre when you look at his circumstances.
-
Episode 5 now free to view/listen to!
-
OK, so what have we got regarding the Milbank call?
Milbank says he received a call from inside the farm at 6.09, buy didn't say why he knew it was from WHF?
I mean, did he see the number on a monitor or something, and if so, how did he know it was from WHF, did an address come up too?
And no mention was made of the fact that 'operator' appears in the margin of the log regarding the 6.09 call.
So was there a call from 'inside' WHF at 6.09 or was it the operator phoning the police station to hand over the open line?
I am none the wiser!
Was it Jean Rowe who supposedly handed over the open line at 6.09? Is she still alive? Maybe Heidi should track 'her' down to clarrify things?
I didn't get an answer from the CT either about the change in the line status at 5.47 that Bubo was talking about!
Anyway,there is no doubt that the CCRC will need the activity at 6.09 made crystal clear before they can take any action, no half stories will be good enough!
-
OK, so what have we got regarding the Milbank call?
Milbank says he received a call from inside the farm at 6.09, buy didn't say why he knew it was from WHF?
I mean, did he see the number on a monitor or something, and if so, how did he know it was from WHF, did an address come up too?
And no mention was made of the fact that 'operator' appears in the margin of the log regarding the 6.09 call.
So was there a call from 'inside' WHF at 6.09 or was it the operator phoning the police station to hand over the open line?
I am none the wiser!
Was it Jean Rowe who supposedly handed over the open line at 6.09? Is she still alive? Maybe Heidi should track 'her' down to clarrify things?
I didn't get an answer from the CT either about the change in the line status at 5.47 that Bubo was talking about!
Anyway,there is no doubt that the CCRC will need the activity at 6.09 made crystal clear before they can take any action, no half stories will be good enough!
Burrell's 1985 WS confirms Milbank took over the monitoring of the open line at WHF from 6.09am.
-
Burrell's 1985 WS confirms Milbank took over the monitoring of the open line at WHF from 6.09am.
But Milbank seems to be saying that he actually answered a call at 6.09, Adam? Not, that he simply took over a phone from someone else who had already been listening to the open line from WHF?
He answered the phone and continued to monitor it until the police entered at 7.34!
And if the open line had already been handed over before 6.09, just what was the operator calling the police station for at that time?
I mean, once the opertator handed the open line over to the police, that should have been that, no other interaction between the operator and the police should have been neccessary.
So just when did the operator ring up the police station and hand over the open line?
-
But Milbank seems to be saying that he actually answered a call at 6.09, Adam? Not, that he simply took over a phone from someone else who had already been listening to the open line from WHF?
He answered the phone and continued to monitor it until the police entered at 7.34!
Obviously he didn't answer a 999 call from inside WHF where the caller says nothing. He took over the monitoring of the open line at 6.09am. As said in 1985.
Appreciate supporters will promote it. They are still promoting the 2010 claim that Nevill called a police station over 20 miles away. Because West & Bonnet's phone logs differ.
The CCRC has dismissed both.
-
Obviously he didn't answer a 999 call from inside WHF where the caller says nothing. He took over the monitoring of the open line at 6.09am. As said in 1985.
Appreciate supporters will promote it. They are still promoting the 2010 claim that Nevill called a police station over 20 miles away. Because West & Bonnet's phone logs differ.
The CCRC has dismissed both.
At what time did the operator ring up the police station and hand over the open line, Adam?
If it was before 6.09, then the 6..09 call 'must' have came from inside WHF, yes?
-
At what time did the operator ring up the police station and hand over the open line, Adam?
If it was before 6.09, then the 6..09 call 'must' have came from inside WHF, yes?
Burrel's WS is on this forum. Milbank took over the monitoring of the open line at 6.09am. Nothing happened before.
-
Burrel's WS is on this forum. Milbank took over the monitoring of the open line at 6.09am. Nothing happened before.
Except that earlier than 6.09am the operator reported the line engaged.
Which can only happen if the phone was returned to the cradle (as it was off the hook which sets a alarm on at the exchange), picked up and a call made!
-
Except that earlier than 6.09am the operator reported the line engaged.
Which can only happen if the phone was returned to the cradle (as it was off the hook which sets a alarm on at the exchange), picked up and a call made!
All getting very complex and optimistic.
One minute Sheila is shooting her sleeping parents & children 23 times & inflicting 40+ injuries to Nevill. As she wanted to commit murder/suicide.
The next she is still alive hours later. Ignoring the police outside & phoning 999 but not saying anything.
-
Except that earlier than 6.09am the operator reported the line engaged.
Which can only happen if the phone was returned to the cradle (as it was off the hook which sets a alarm on at the exchange), picked up and a call made!
Yes, thats what Bubo said, Rob, why haven't the CT made a big deal of this?
-
Burrel's WS is on this forum. Milbank took over the monitoring of the open line at 6.09am. Nothing happened before.
I'll take a look then ,Adam, and at Jean Rowes! Try and make some sense of things!
-
Yes, thats what Bubo said, Rob, why haven't the CT made a big deal of this?
I don't know Snow? It took quite a lot of searching to find that a phone off the hook set an alarm on at the exchange in those days.
To me it is something that needs explaining, if the line did change status JB is innocent.
-
Burrell's 1985 WS confirms Milbank took over the monitoring of the open line at WHF from 6.09am.
Yes, according to Burrell,the open line was handed over at 6.09 from the operator and only then did Milbank monitor it.
So, it seems someone is mistaken?
Why didn't Heidi Blake explain the Burrell statement?
What about Jean Rowe, where is her statement, Adam? What did she say?
-
I don't know Snow? It took quite a lot of searching to find that a phone off the hook set an alarm on at the exchange in those days.
To me it is something that needs explaining, if the line did change status JB is innocent.
Thanks Rob! So, is the log showing this change on the forum here somewhere? I think Bubo has already posted it before.
-
Thanks Rob! So, is the log showing this change on the forum here somewhere? I think Bubo has already posted it before.
Yes the log is on the forum Snow, if you read West's and or Bonnett's you will find it.
-
Yes the log is on the forum Snow, if you read West's and or Bonnett's you will find it.
Thanks, Rob, will do!
-
Yes the log is on the forum Snow, if you read West's and or Bonnett's you will find it.
Ah yes, 5.47 PHONE ENGAGED @ SCENE!
Then the link up at 6.09, looks like the Milbank call doesn't add up? Not without some clarification anyway!
Could it have been the 5.47 call that Milbank answered? Not according to Burrell!
-
Ah yes, 5.47 PHONE ENGAGED @ SCENE!
Then the link up at 6.09, looks like the Milbank call doesn't add up? Not without some clarification anyway!
Could it have been the 5.47 call that Milbank answered? Not according to Burrell!
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4949.msg209640.html#msg209640
Reply 2 has Jean Rowe's WS.
-
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4949.msg209640.html#msg209640
Reply 2 has Jean Rowe's WS.
Oh, I didn't notice, Adam, thanks!
-
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4949.msg209640.html#msg209640
Reply 2 has Jean Rowe's WS.
Yes, Jean Rowe's wording in her statement is interesting!
' I am not allowed to engage the Direct Emergency Police line so I again checked into the Malden number and then phoned the police headquarters and connected the two thus enabling the police to listen to the line.'
What is the Direct Emergency Police line? Is that simply 999, or some other 'special line?
Anyway, Jean Rowe checked into Maldon number and then phoned the police headquarters, so no mention of making any'999' call to the police station in order to make the link-up to WHF then?
And this is what Milbank keeps talking about, or at least did, a 999 call from inside WHF!
Milbank answered a 999 call, yet it appears that Jean Rowe didn't make any 999 call, she 'checked into the Maldon number and then phoned the police headquarters',
So why did Milbank maintain that he answered a 999 call?
Did Jean Rowe actually make the link between the police station and WHF at 6.09, or was this simply achieved by Sheila making a 999 call that Milbank picked up, thus making the connection?
I suppose this is where the value of the original signed statements would come in handy?
-
Yes, Jean Rowe's wording in her statement is interesting!
' I am not allowed to engage the Direct Emergency Police line so I again checked into the Malden number and then phoned the police headquarters and connected the two thus enabling the police to listen to the line.'
What is the Direct Emergency Police line? Is that simply 999, or some other 'special line?
Anyway, Jean Rowe checked into Maldon number and then phoned the police headquarters, so no mention of making any'999' call to the police station in order to make the link-up to WHF then?
And this is what Milbank keeps talking about, or at least did, a 999 call from inside WHF!
Milbank answered a 999 call, yet it appears that Jean Rowe didn't make any 999 call, she 'checked into the Maldon number and then phoned the police headquarters',
So why did Milbank maintain that he answered a 999 call?
A lot depends on how operators were allotted tasks. Did all operators handle 999 calls if they were 'free'? In this case the 999 call could have been routed by someone other than JR.
There is also the question of who West spoke to when he had the line checked at 03.42am. This means that if JR was responsible for this task she received 3 calls to check, where as her statement says she was asked twice as per the Burrell statement with the first check at around 04.00am. There is no reference to being tasked with monitoring the line.
-
A lot depends on how operators were allotted tasks. Did all operators handle 999 calls if they were 'free'? In this case the 999 call could have been routed by someone other than JR.
There is also the question of who West spoke to when he had the line checked at 03.42am. This means that if JR was responsible for this task she received 3 calls to check, where as her statement says she was asked twice as per the Burrell statement with the first check at around 04.00am. There is no reference to being tasked with monitoring the line.
I think Heidi Blake will certainly have to supply a lot more detail about the Milbank call if its going to be of any use to JB, Bubo!
-
I think Heidi Blake will certainly have to supply a lot more detail about the Milbank call if its going to be of any use to JB, Bubo!
As with Nevill calling Chelmsford Police, it will still be discussed 15 years later. With Jeremy still in prison. If still alive.
However unlike Nevill's call, it can't be submitted to the CCRC in 15 years. It has already been rejected by them. Jeremy's lawyers need to decide whether to pass the audio to the CCRC. Although they have probably heard the podcast.
-
As with Nevill calling Chelmsford Police, it will still be discussed 15 years later. With Jeremy still in prison. If still alive.
However unlike Nevill's call, it can't be submitted to the CCRC in 15 years. It has already been rejected by them. Jeremy's lawyers need to decide whether to pass the audio to the CCRC. Although they have probably heard the podcast.
I think the Aga evidence should have gained Bamber an appeal if handled right, Adam!
-
I think the Aga evidence should have gained Bamber an appeal if handled right, Adam!
The only way the Aga evidence would have got Bamber an appeal, the Police would have to confess that they moved Neville’s body from the Aga to stage him seated on the Chair. Your idea is totally useless and wouldn’t even come close (PERIOD) in other words totally Irrelevant and doesn’t carry any weight whatsoever!
I genuinely thought the Millbank Audio might have some bearing, but I’m now thinking the opposite, I think it’s questionable to say the least and it leaves us all with Suspicion on why the New Yorker never released the Tapes when asked to do so by the CCRC?
I wonder what Jeremy Bamber really thinks, was he told beforehand that the New Yorker would not release the Millbank interview to the CCRC, he seems to have built his hopes up about them, yet he blames the CCRC for none referral, any Court or Lawyer would want to see or hear any confession in its entirety before making a Judgement and not some edited script, edited Scripts would be thrown out and be inadmissible.
-
I think Heidi Blake will certainly have to supply a lot more detail about the Milbank call if its going to be of any use to JB, Bubo!
Heidi (the New Yorker) was asked to supply the Millbank Audio to the CCRC Snow and they refused, if they did I’m sure the CCRC would look at it again, but how much time will this have cost the CCRC and Jeremy Bamber if they did Snow?
-
The defence case is Sheila wanted to commit murder/suicide. Bamber said she wanted to go to heaven.
So not sure why -
She would keep herself alive for another 3 hours.
Ring 999.
Not say anything.
Not communicate with the police outside instead.
Milbank not say anything for 40 years.
----------
But appreciate this will follow the same trajectory as Nevill's call to the police & always be supported. However it was dismissed by the CCRC within 12 months. Nevill's call was dismissed by the CCRC 15 years later.
-
Sheila's call was physically possible if she was alive inside WHF. .
Nevill calling Bamber and then the police after he had been shot 4 times would have taken too long. The defence case that he called Bamber is bad enough.
-
Can someone provide a link to listen to the episodes (apologies if already done so)
-
Can someone provide a link to listen to the episodes (apologies if already done so)
Please see #40, if it's not too much trouble..
Nick Milbank obituary: https://www.essex.police.uk/police-forces/essex-police/areas/essex-police/au/about-us/obituaries/
-
The only way the Aga evidence would have got Bamber an appeal, the Police would have to confess that they moved Neville’s body from the Aga to stage him seated on the Chair. Your idea is totally useless and wouldn’t even come close (PERIOD) in other words totally Irrelevant and doesn’t carry any weight whatsoever!
I genuinely thought the Millbank Audio might have some bearing, but I’m now thinking the opposite, I think it’s questionable to say the least and it leaves us all with Suspicion on why the New Yorker never released the Tapes when asked to do so by the CCRC?
I wonder what Jeremy Bamber really thinks, was he told beforehand that the New Yorker would not release the Millbank interview to the CCRC, he seems to have built his hopes up about them, yet he blames the CCRC for none referral, any Court or Lawyer would want to see or hear any confession in its entirety before making a Judgement and not some edited script, edited Scripts would be thrown out and be inadmissible.
Well if the police do confess to moving Nevill from the Aga to the chair/scuttle after entry then that will certainly rule out my ramblings as it were, HB!
BUT!! That has not happened as of yet!
-
Well if the police do confess to moving Nevill from the Aga to the chair/scuttle after entry then that will certainly rule out my ramblings as it were, HB!
BUT!! That has not happened as of yet!
It would be nice to view the 200 pages that the CCRC gave for none referral on these matters and others? I guess we will not see these?
-
Heidi (the New Yorker) was asked to supply the Millbank Audio to the CCRC Snow and they refused, if they did I’m sure the CCRC would look at it again, but how much time will this have cost the CCRC and Jeremy Bamber if they did Snow?
I guess now that the CCRC asked for the tape recording in its full unedited version, and we understand this was refused, it now becomes a problem, it has now become Problematic in other words because, although it’s not unlawful to record someone without prior knowledge and it could be used as evidence in Court, Sharing the Recording Problems may arise if the recording is shared beyond the police and legal proceedings (e.g., released to the public or sold) without consent, as this could lead to claims for misuse of private information? Weight of Evidence: The court will assess the authenticity, relevance, and context of the recording. An unedited, full conversation is important; mere snippets might be viewed with caution.
Then we move onto this Statement by Essex police….. A police statement indicates that former Essex police officer PC Nicholas (Nicky) Milbank provided a new statement saying he had not been aware he was talking to a journalist and did not endorse the subsequent New Yorker article.
-
I guess now that the CCRC asked for the tape recording in its full unedited version, and we understand this was refused, it now becomes a problem, it has now become Problematic in other words because, although it’s not unlawful to record someone without prior knowledge and it could be used as evidence in Court, Sharing the Recording Problems may arise if the recording is shared beyond the police and legal proceedings (e.g., released to the public or sold) without consent, as this could lead to claims for misuse of private information? Weight of Evidence: The court will assess the authenticity, relevance, and context of the recording. An unedited, full conversation is important; mere snippets might be viewed with caution.
Then we move onto this Statement by Essex police….. A police statement indicates that former Essex police officer PC Nicholas (Nicky) Milbank provided a new statement saying he had not been aware he was talking to a journalist and did not endorse the subsequent New Yorker article.
Milbank produced a new statement saying he had not known he was talking to a journalist and did not endorse the New Yorker article.
He also now claimed the 2002 statement was real.
The New Yorker issued a statement saying it stood by its reporting – but the CCRC said any concerns arising from what PC Milbank told the magazine had “fallen away”.
I guess it did fall away when the New Yorker REFUSED to hand over the Millbank Audio Interview to the CCRC!
-
It would be nice to view the 200 pages that the CCRC gave for none referral on these matters and others? I guess we will not see these?
Yes, it sure would be nice to see the refusal, HB!
-
Yes, it sure would be nice to see the refusal, HB!
I believe the refusals are provisional and can be contested
-
I believe the refusals are provisional and can be contested
Ah yes, of course, Bubo!
So it wouldn't actually make any sense to disclose the document yet!
-
I believe the refusals are provisional and can be contested
Yes it has refused Provisionally, but it would still be nice to see the reasons given in the 200 pages that were given? I know we will not see these yet, but at some stage it would be nice to see the reasons.
-
Ah yes, of course, Bubo!
So it wouldn't actually make any sense to disclose the document yet!
Yes I agree Snow, put it out there on a Podcast first.
-
Yes it has refused Provisionally, but it would still be nice to see the reasons given in the 200 pages that were given? I know we will not see these yet, but at some stage it would be nice to see the reasons.
The Campaign Team have stopped releasing information like they did in the 2000s. We are not allowed to see the CCRC's 2012 Statement of Reasons. Only people like ngb1066, Bill Robertson and the Campaign Team members can view it.
You have to ask yourself why.
-
The Campaign Team have stopped releasing information like they did in the 2000s. We are not allowed to see the CCRC's 2012 Statement of Reasons. Only people like ngb1066, Bill Robertson and the Campaign Team members can view it.
You have to ask yourself why.
There would be lots of goodies for the guilters.
-
There would be lots of goodies for the guilters.
Ha ha, your a character, Adam.
Always the wry humour!
-
Finally got to hear episode 4.
Didn't know Cook was head of the crime scene investigating team.
Doubt he picked up the bible and flicked through it prior to crime scene photos. And espescially not the rifle. That would break crime scene protocol. Even for 1985. Neither Davidson or Cook said this in 1985,/6.
The rest is about the silencer chain of custody & the crime scene destroyed too soon. Which has gone through the justice system before.
-
Just listened to episode 5.
Millbank sounds fit & well. He was still working for EP so a surprise he agreed to speak to Heidi. Also a surprise he died suddenly at 67. Obviously Heidi wouldn't sneek in an actor to go with the usual RB's & BW's.
Millbank says he can't remember half a dozen times. Then can't remember his 2002 statement that says he took over the monitoring of an open line from Jean Rowe.
-
Didn't know that in 1985 if the police received a 999 call & the caller says nothing, the police spend hours listening into the open line.
Sounds a bit extreme but doubt it happened much.
-
Just listened to episode 5.
Millbank sounds fit & well. He was still working for EP so a surprise he agreed to speak to Heidi. Also a surprise he died suddenly at 67. Obviously Heidi wouldn't sneek in an actor to go with the usual RB's & BW's.
Millbank says he can't remember half a dozen times. Then can't remember his 2002 statement that says he took over the monitoring of an open line from Jean Rowe.
Heidi said he emailed her saying that he could have misrembered and he might have made the statement
-
Heidi said he emailed her saying that he could have misrembered and he might have made the statement
Thanks Jonathan. Do you know where he said this?
-
Thanks Jonathan. Do you know where he said this?
it's about 30min in to episode 5. She sends him the 2002 statement, he responds and lists 8 reasons why it wasn't made by him, but conceded that he "could have misremembered things" and "the statement could be right". He then claims all incoming 999 calls were recorded. Heidi says Milbank then "clammed-up" and didn't want to talk about the case.
Milbank on the witness stand would have been something worth seeing.
-
Episode 5 is correct in that the twins are likely to sleep through the whole massacre due to the quiet rifle.
Ditto Sheila who was also very drowsy.
-
it's about 30min in to episode 5. She sends him the 2002 statement, he responds and lists 8 reasons why it wasn't made by him, but conceded that he "could have misremembered things" and "the statement could be right". He then claims all incoming 999 calls were recorded. Heidi says Milbank then "clammed-up" and didn't want to talk about the case.
Milbank on the witness stand would have been something worth seeing.
Thanks Jonathan.
A fact conveniently which will be conveniently omitted by the Campaign Team podcasts.
-
it's about 30min in to episode 5. She sends him the 2002 statement, he responds and lists 8 reasons why it wasn't made by him, but conceded that he "could have misremembered things" and "the statement could be right". He then claims all incoming 999 calls were recorded. Heidi says Milbank then "clammed-up" and didn't want to talk about the case.
Milbank on the witness stand would have been something worth seeing.
If you're a conspiracy theorist you may argue they bumped off DCI Jones as well.
-
If you're a conspiracy theorist you may argue they bumped off DCI Jones as well.
Funnily enough in Lomaxs book in conversations with Taffs son they explore that.
-
Funnily enough in Lomaxs book in conversations with Taffs son they explore that.
They could not be sure he wouldn't survive a ladder fall.
-
They could not be sure he wouldn't survive a ladder fall.
It depends from what height he fell.
-
It depends from what height he fell.
It would take a lot to go right. Sabotaging the ladder at a certain height, being sure he would climb that high, erc
-
It would take a lot to go right. Sabotaging the ladder at a certain height, being sure he would climb that high, erc
I'm guessing there were no witnesses to the occurrence..
-
Funnily enough in Lomaxs book in conversations with Taffs son they explore that.
Is this in the latest version of his book?
-
Is this in the latest version of his book?
Yeah.
Guy simply fell off a ladder back in 86. Think Jeremy was on remand awaiting trial.
I don't recall Jeremy himself alledging any suspicion about it. Seems he just had an accident at home.
-
My assessment of Taff is he gets a lot of stick. I would have come to a similar point of view. It was a different way of life back in the 80s,
Well spoken posh guy, sister with documented mental health problems. Property locked up.
Only the two shots would have got me suspicious, but the pathologist did say it could happen.
All these interviews etc years on with Bews, etc saying stuff like " We were so suspicious of him from the outset" Is just bollocks tainted by the wisdom of the event.
-
If you're a conspiracy theorist you may argue they bumped off DCI Jones as well.
I have heard that suggested by Bamber supporters. Also, some Bamber supporters claim that he was waiting to the trial to blow the whistle, as Essex Police prevented him from blowing the whistle prior to the trial, and had he not been killed he could have testified that he had proof of Bamber's innocence.
-
My assessment of Taff is he gets a lot of stick. I would have come to a similar point of view. It was a different way of life back in the 80s,
Well spoken posh guy, sister with documented mental health problems. Property locked up.
Only the two shots would have got me suspicious, but the pathologist did say it could happen.
All these interviews etc years on with Bews, etc saying stuff like " We were so suspicious of him from the outset" Is just bollocks tainted by the wisdom of the event.
Wouldn't you have been suspicious that neither Nevill nor Jeremy called 999 !?
-
I have heard that suggested by Bamber supporters. Also, some Bamber supporters claim that he was waiting to the trial to blow the whistle, as Essex Police prevented him from blowing the whistle prior to the trial, and had he not been killed he could have testified that he had proof of Bamber's innocence.
He never had proof that JB was innocent. But he always believed he was, and would have expressed that at trial had he not died.
-
He never had proof that JB was innocent. But he always believed he was, and would have expressed that at trial had he not died.
Even if you are correct on this point, I don't think that would be allowed, because it is not evidence.
-
Wouldn't you have been suspicious that neither Nevill nor Jeremy called 999 !?
No.
Why would I?
I wouldn't be conducting a criminal investigation asap into a concerned relative I had a concerned young man and a woman with mental health difficulties in a farmhouse with numerous firearms.
-
No.
Why would I?
I wouldn't be conducting a criminal investigation asap into a concerned relative I had a concerned young man and a woman with mental health difficulties in a farmhouse with numerous firearms.
Because everyone knows "in an emergency, call 999"! It said it in bold in the phone book which Jeremy looked through. Despite this, he ignored the bold and called the local police!
-
Because everyone knows "in an emergency, call 999"! It said it in bold in the phone book which Jeremy looked through. Despite this, he ignored the bold and called the local police!
..and he wasn't flicking through the Yellow Pages at all during that time. He was removing his murderwear, replete with flecks of blood, which he hung up in the wardrobe, changing into his new attire of blue blouson jacket, two crew-neck jumpers over a shirt, jeans and trainers. No apparent concern for the victims of his slaughter, quite composed from his nocturnal endeavours, until realizing he had to make an effort in that regard.
The effort didn't last long though, as upon Julie's arrival he couldn't stifle the chuckle which emerged from his person, now fully in control, as he drove DS Jones and DI Mick Clarke back to Bourtree Cottage.
-
Because everyone knows "in an emergency, call 999"! It said it in bold in the phone book which Jeremy looked through. Despite this, he ignored the bold and called the local police!
He tried phoning witham, then phoned Chelmsford.
-
He tried phoning witham, then phoned Chelmsford.
The first claim is disputed by Essex Police.
-
So he got no reply from Witham and still didn't dial 999.
-
So he got no reply from Witham and still didn't dial 999.
He said " I don't know how your system works "
Wonder how many times in actual fact he had phoned 999 prior to 1985.
-
So he got no reply from Witham and still didn't dial 999.
It appears that several bushes are being beat around, but the bottom line is that despite, eventually!, telling Chelmsford police that his father sounded "terrified", he wasted, potentially, precious minutes, phoning local stations -which probably only had bicycles or mopeds- rather than calling 999.
-
So he got no reply from Witham and still didn't dial 999.
He has changed his stance a little on the calls since 1985.
Back in 85 it was " He sounded really frightened
2025 he is like " Nevill would say " For fuck sake why have you phoned the coppers for"
-
Didn't he say to bews though " You have to understand he doesn't like to get organisations involved, the family name etc"
-
He said " I don't know how your system works "
Wonder how many times in actual fact he had phoned 999 prior to 1985.
In an emergency situation, one has no need to "know how the system works". In this particular case, the "system" is tried, trusted, and relied upon.
-
Didn't he say to bews though " You have to understand he doesn't like to get organisations involved, the family name etc"
A superiority complex there, and a wonderful put-down! Little man, know your place!
-
It appears that several bushes are being beat around, but the bottom line is that despite, eventually!, telling Chelmsford police that his father sounded "terrified", he wasted, potentially, precious minutes, phoning local stations -which probably only had bicycles or mopeds- rather than calling 999.
Bamber said he underestimated the seriousness of the situation - then explained his slow driving by saying that he was scared to get there first
-
Bamber said he underestimated the seriousness of the situation - then explained his slow driving by saying that he was scared to get there first
Having previously told Chelmsford police hiss father sounded "terrified"
-
Even if you are correct on this point, I don't think that would be allowed, because it is not evidence.
Of course Taff had his reasons for believing it was murder suicide and it was not just him most of the officers present saw nothing wrong with the crime scene, if he took the sand explaining his reasons the case collapses.
We cannot see all the original case notes unfortunately.
-
Of course Taff had his reasons for believing it was murder suicide and it was not just him most of the officers present saw nothing wrong with the crime scene, if he took the sand explaining his reasons the case collapses.
We cannot see all the original case notes unfortunately.
Did the other officers who "saw nothing wrong with the crime scene" give evidence?
-
Did the other officers who "saw nothing wrong with the crime scene" give evidence?
I am not sure which officers did give evidence? I know Bews and West did.
-
Did the other officers who "saw nothing wrong with the crime scene" give evidence?
I'm inclined to believe that (most) people see what they're told/led to believe they'll see. i.e. JB painted a very clear picture of Sheila and her mental instability, which included a previous suicide attempt which has never been verified, so obviously, when police went in and saw her with a gun draped across her, their first thought would have been suicide. It would have taken a very brave person to stand out against the general consensus and claim it was something other.
-
I'm inclined to believe that (most) people see what they're told/led to believe they'll see. i.e. JB painted a very clear picture of Sheila and her mental instability, which included a previous suicide attempt which has never been verified, so obviously, when police went in and saw her with a gun draped across her, their first thought would have been suicide. It would have taken a very brave person to stand out against the general consensus and claim it was something other.
This is what Cook said:
-
I'm inclined to believe that (most) people see what they're told/led to believe they'll see. i.e. JB painted a very clear picture of Sheila and her mental instability, which included a previous suicide attempt which has never been verified, so obviously, when police went in and saw her with a gun draped across her, their first thought would have been suicide. It would have taken a very brave person to stand out against the general consensus and claim it was something other.
She'd told Helen Grimster she had thought of suicide, but there was no independent verification she had attempted it. Even June, had she known, would have immediately stepped in and brought her back to White House Farm.
-
I'm inclined to believe that (most) people see what they're told/led to believe they'll see. i.e. JB painted a very clear picture of Sheila and her mental instability, which included a previous suicide attempt which has never been verified, so obviously, when police went in and saw her with a gun draped across her, their first thought would have been suicide. It would have taken a very brave person to stand out against the general consensus and claim it was something other.
He called her a nutter, do lally, looney, is having treatment, should be locked up, didn't like him, knew how to use all the weapons at WHF, he didn't like her.
That was after he told them about Nevill's call.
Then he asked Bews & Miller to go inside!
-
A superiority complex there, and a wonderful put-down! Little man, know your place!
Not really, Nevill was a ww2 fighter pilot hero, Gentry Farmer, magistrate and shrewd businessman. Even if Jeremy was lying I can imagine Nevill having the mindset.
They were private people, a local employer, pillar of the community, archers style family.
-
Not really, Nevill was a ww2 fighter pilot hero, Gentry Farmer, magistrate and shrewd businessman. Even if Jeremy was lying I can imagine Nevill having the mindset.
They were private people, a local employer, pillar of the community, archers style family.
You may think that, but the man I've been told about was gregarious, fun, even flirtatious. Of course, his 'professional' persona would have been rather different.
-
Has the podcast mentioned any theories about the contamination of the silencer?
-
Of course Taff had his reasons for believing it was murder suicide and it was not just him most of the officers present saw nothing wrong with the crime scene, if he took the sand explaining his reasons the case collapses.
We cannot see all the original case notes unfortunately.
What could he have said which would have sank the prosecution case?
-
Has the podcast mentioned any theories about the contamination of the silencer?
What podcast?
-
What podcast?
New Yorker
-
New Yorker
It is in six parts. There is, from memory, a lot about the chain of custody and I believe possible interference by members of the family
-
What could he have said which would have sank the prosecution case?
Taff had to accept the murder/suicide narrative at 7.30am on the 7th August 1985. It was the only narrative given.
The media then reported it as such.
Bews, Miller, SJ, the relatives & Julie were all suspicious. The evidence was going to take a few weeks to process so Taff could not change.
He stayed on the case after Ainsley took over. So do believe he would have testifed for the defence.
-
No one at trial believed Nevill called Jeremy after he had been shot 4 times and before the kitchen attack. Even if Sheila had given him some time.
But the defence could not invent a pre shot conversation & Nevill was dead/knocked out after the kitchen attack.
-
Of course Taff had his reasons for believing it was murder suicide and it was not just him most of the officers present saw nothing wrong with the crime scene, if he took the sand explaining his reasons the case collapses.
We cannot see all the original case notes unfortunately.
Taff Jones arrived at WHF at around 9.05am and was taken through the house by Woodcock to view the bodies. Within roughly twenty-five minutes, by about 9.30am, he had left the house and went to Miller, Cook, Stan Jones and two other SOCOs outside in the yard, where he stated it was a suicide and explained how it had happened. This to me was Taff delivering it as a settled fact, and not open for discussion, all the other officers just fell into line with What Taff had said. and after that, Woodcock did not see him again.
So in effect…. A murder suicide conclusion was formed by Taff, and presented within 25 minutes of arrival, prior to any forensic examination, and acted upon as a settled fact, and by early afternoon the bodies had been removed!
-
Taff Jones arrived at WHF at around 9.05am and was taken through the house by Woodcock to view the bodies. Within roughly twenty-five minutes, by about 9.30am, he had left the house and went to Miller, Cook, Stan Jones and two other SOCOs outside in the yard, where he stated it was a suicide and explained how it had happened. This to me was Taff delivering it as a settled fact, and not open for discussion, all the other officers just fell into line with What Taff had said. and after that, Woodcock did not see him again.
So in effect…. A murder suicide conclusion was formed by Taff, and presented within 25 minutes of arrival, prior to any forensic examination, and acted upon as a settled fact, and by early afternoon the bodies had been removed!
I'll hazard a guess that someone had fed him the information JB had given them? After that it must have been a foregone conclusion. A no-brainer, I suppose?
-
I'll hazard a guess that someone had fed him the information JB had given them? After that it must have been a foregone conclusion. A no-brainer, I suppose?
This isn't how police officers work.
-
This isn't how police officers work.
However, with no information, other than JB's, the evidence of the sequence suggests such to have been the case.
-
Very optimistic for Jeremy at trial to say Nevill called him after his 4 shots & before the kitchen attack. If Sheila wanted everyone dead, likely she would chase a still alive Nevill.
But appreciate that was the only window available.
He later claimed this narrow window also gave Nevill time to call Chelmsford Police!
Bit cheeky.
-
I'll hazard a guess that someone had fed him the information JB had given them? After that it must have been a foregone conclusion. A no-brainer, I suppose?
You've hit it right on the head there Jane, in his notes he states “as a result of what I was told”. So he’d been fed what Jeremy had told them. He was inside the house for 25 mins and wrapped the case up, not even requesting Pathologist and ballistics and telling Cook he didn’t require a full house search, the bodies removed and on their way to the morgue for 1.00pm and Taff back in his office for 11.30am doing his reports.
-
You've hit it right on the head there Jane, in his notes he states “as a result of what I was told”. So he’d been fed what Jeremy had told them. He was inside the house for 25 mins and wrapped the case up, not even requesting Pathologist and ballistics and telling Cook he didn’t require a full house search, the bodies removed and on their way to the morgue for 1.00pm and Taff back in his office for 11.30am doing his reports.
Do not just play with words. The SIO when he arrived was the Divisional Commander Harris. He arrived at WHF 07.40 He had made a full assessment and visited the full scene with other officers before speaking to JB at 08.15. He even visited again with DR Craig while he confirmed deaths. He then entered for a third time with Taff at 09.05 and left with him at 09.34. Taff had not spoken to JB at that time. There is no reference in the Harris statement that JB told him a load of porkies to 'wrong' foot' the police. They talked about him wanting to see his dad and wanting to contact JM
I have had recourse to call you out on this before.
'That is pure assumption on your part with no evidence. Harris was the SIO and he would be responsible for the call. He backed Taff's operation'.
-
Taff Jones arrived at WHF at around 9.05am and was taken through the house by Woodcock to view the bodies. Within roughly twenty-five minutes, by about 9.30am, he had left the house and went to Miller, Cook, Stan Jones and two other SOCOs outside in the yard, where he stated it was a suicide and explained how it had happened. This to me was Taff delivering it as a settled fact, and not open for discussion, all the other officers just fell into line with What Taff had said. and after that, Woodcock did not see him again.
So in effect…. A murder suicide conclusion was formed by Taff, and presented within 25 minutes of arrival, prior to any forensic examination, and acted upon as a settled fact, and by early afternoon the bodies had been removed!
50 or so officers and no one able to go up to Taff and other even more senior officers present and say "Boss something seriously wrong here"
Thats because there was nothing not supporting murder suicide at the crime scene.
-
Do not just play with words. The SIO when he arrived was the Divisional Commander Harris. He arrived at WHF 07.40 He had made a full assessment and visited the full scene with other officers before speaking to JB at 08.15. He even visited again with DR Craig while he confirmed deaths. He then entered for a third time with Taff at 09.05 and left with him at 09.34. Taff had not spoken to JB at that time. There is no reference in the Harris statement that JB told him a load of porkies to 'wrong' foot' the police. They talked about him wanting to see his dad and wanting to contact JM
I have had recourse to call you out on this before.
'That is pure assumption on your part with no evidence. Harris was the SIO and he would be responsible for the call. He backed Taff's operation'.
Read Taffs notes you idiot, he says as a result of what I was told, whether it was from Harris or Bamber, it doesn’t matter, how am I playing with words, it’s what TAFF wrote you idiot! Woodcock says in his notes what time Taff arrived and left the house, read up before you accuse!
-
50 or so officers and no one able to go up to Taff and other even more senior officers present and say "Boss something seriously wrong here"
Thats because there was nothing not supporting murder suicide at the crime scene.
Who’s the 50 officers, he went outside to Miller, Stan and Cook and two more SOCO and said it’s suicide, he told Cook later he didn’t want a full house search, the bodies where on their way to the Morgue for 1.00pm and Taff was back in his office for 11.30om. Woodcock was there, neither you or Bubo was there, Woodcock wasn’t happy at all with the murder suicide theory.
-
Do not just play with words. The SIO when he arrived was the Divisional Commander Harris. He arrived at WHF 07.40 He had made a full assessment and visited the full scene with other officers before speaking to JB at 08.15. He even visited again with DR Craig while he confirmed deaths. He then entered for a third time with Taff at 09.05 and left with him at 09.34. Taff had not spoken to JB at that time. There is no reference in the Harris statement that JB told him a load of porkies to 'wrong' foot' the police. They talked about him wanting to see his dad and wanting to contact JM
I have had recourse to call you out on this before.
'That is pure assumption on your part with no evidence. Harris was the SIO and he would be responsible for the call. He backed Taff's operation'.
"I have had recourse to call you out on this before"!!!! Just who the HELL do you think you are, you arrogant, pompous....................person!! Still. at least I can be thankful that you have me on ignore so you won't see this. But the rest of the forum hasn't so they can!
-
50 or so officers and no one able to go up to Taff and other even more senior officers present and say "Boss something seriously wrong here"
Thats because there was nothing not supporting murder suicide at the crime scene.
Or because he was the sort who refused to listen to argument?
-
"I have had recourse to call you out on this before"!!!! Just who the HELL do you think you are, you arrogant, pompous....................person!! Still. at least I can be thankful that you have me on ignore so you won't see this. But the rest of the forum hasn't so they can!
Its in his world and not in mine, he’s never even come close!
-
Or because he was the sort who refused to listen to argument?
So you are telling me with two children and three adults lying dead 50 officers never had the balls to tell Taff he might be wrong?
I know in those days it was difficult to question a senior officer, but I go by Cook's statement he said him and his team saw nothing to contradict the scenario of Sheila being the shooter.
-
So you are telling me with two children and three adults lying dead 50 officers never had the balls to tell Taff he might be wrong?
I know in those days it was difficult to question a senior officer, but I go by Cook's statement he said him and his team saw nothing to contradict the scenario of Sheila being the shooter.
Things changed from the first few minutes inside WHF.
-
Things changed from the first few minutes inside WHF.
I agree Adam all the officers become lemon's too sacred to tell Taff it can't be Sheila.
-
I agree Adam all the officers become lemon's too sacred to tell Taff it can't be Sheila.
So that's why he was replaced.
-
So you are telling me with two children and three adults lying dead 50 officers never had the balls to tell Taff he might be wrong?
I know in those days it was difficult to question a senior officer, but I go by Cook's statement he said him and his team saw nothing to contradict the scenario of Sheila being the shooter.
Read Woodcocks Statement, he wasn’t satisfied, who are the 50 officers, there was woodcock showing him around WHF and Taff made his way out into the court yard after 25mins and called it suicide, he spoke to Miller, Stan and Cook, how could they call him out at this stage anyway The raid team had gone, and all these officers did was make the house safe, they weren’t there to form any judgement.
Woodcock states…….”I did not consider going to see any other senior officer because I felt that I had explained to the Officer IN CHARGE OF THE CASE WHAT I HAD SEEN and felt and it wasn’t in my mind to GO ABOVE HIM”
-
So you are telling me with two children and three adults lying dead 50 officers never had the balls to tell Taff he might be wrong?
I know in those days it was difficult to question a senior officer, but I go by Cook's statement he said him and his team saw nothing to contradict the scenario of Sheila being the shooter.
So that tells you something about Taff then, he wasn’t very approachable.
-
So you are telling me with two children and three adults lying dead 50 officers never had the balls to tell Taff he might be wrong?
I know in those days it was difficult to question a senior officer, but I go by Cook's statement he said him and his team saw nothing to contradict the scenario of Sheila being the shooter.
From what I've been told -and it's all I have to go on, as said by two officers on the case- about his 'people skills' -or lack of- Yes, I believe that's exactly what I'm saying. Perhaps you've never been unlucky enough to work with someone, senior to you, that you've not dared to question?
-
Read Woodcocks Statement, he wasn’t satisfied, who are the 50 officers, there was woodcock showing him around WHF and Taff made his way out into the court yard after 25mins and called it suicide, he spoke to Miller, Stan and Cook, how could they call him out at this stage anyway The raid team had gone, and all these officers did was make the house safe, they weren’t there to form any judgement.
Woodcock states…….”I did not consider going to see any other senior officer because I felt that I had explained to the Officer IN CHARGE OF THE CASE WHAT I HAD SEEN and felt and it wasn’t in my mind to GO ABOVE HIM”
I must have missed this? where does he say this? COLP? no good being clever ages latter from the man who retypes page 5 of his ws on a different typewriter.
-
From what I've been told -and it's all I have to go on, as said by two officers on the case- about his 'people skills' -or lack of- Yes, I believe that's exactly what I'm saying. Perhaps you've never been unlucky enough to work with someone, senior to you, that you've not dared to question?
You can question, but you never get credit for it.
-
I must have missed this? where does he say this? COLP? no good being clever ages latter from the man who retypes page 5 of his ws on a different typewriter.
So you’ve not missed it at all then, you knew where it was. If you check, its from his notes in his pocket book made on the day and from his witness statement made on the 20th made available for COLP. He tells you why he never said anything, he also brought it up with others, Stan stood up to Taff and got a dressing down from him as well.
-
You can question, but you never get credit for it.
A lot of management in my day would do the opposite to what you suggested anyway, it was a power trip for some.
-
Surely with a case like WHF where five people are found dead and one of them is holding the murder weapon, you have to conclude murder/suicide unless it was possible for someone to break in and kill everyone before staging the scene! That was the only other possibility, and to rule that possibility out someone had to determine if the house had been securely locked from the inside!
That was the only action needed to confirm murder/suicide, the one and only action.
And that was exactly what Taff did!! He took the only action 'needed' in order to rule out foul play from a third party, as it were.
And Taff certainly checked to see if all doors and windows were firmly secured, hence any chance of an 'intruder' carrying out the shooting and then exiting the house should have been ruled out, yes?
Now when we hear of all these police officers who thought that Sheila wasn't the killer from the start, just what part about the house being securely locked from the inside didn't they understand?
No, in reality, Taff did the only thing that was neccessary to rule out a third party killer before leaving, hence Sheila had to be the killer
And once Taff did check the house was secured there was nothing else for him to do, he wasn't a scene of crime officer was he, so why wait around?
BUT!! alas the jury were told that just how JB entered or exited the house was of little importance!!
What if the shooting had taken place in a locked bank vault with a timer?
-
Surely with a case like WHF where five people are found dead and one of them is holding the murder weapon, you have to conclude murder/suicide unless it was possible for someone to break in and kill everyone before staging the scene! That was the only other possibility, and to rule that possibility out someone had to determine if the house had been securely locked from the inside!
That was the only action needed to confirm murder/suicide, the one and only action.
And that was exactly what Taff did!! He took the only action 'needed' in order to rule out foul play from a third party, as it were.
And Taff certainly checked to see if all doors and windows were firmly secured, hence any chance of an 'intruder' carrying out the shooting and then exiting the house should have been ruled out, yes?
Now when we hear of all these police officers who thought that Sheila wasn't the killer from the start, just what part about the house being securely locked from the inside didn't they understand?
No, in reality, Taff did the only thing that was neccessary to rule out a third party killer before leaving, hence Sheila had to be the killer
And once Taff did check the house was secured there was nothing else for him to do, he wasn't a scene of crime officer was he, so why wait around?
BUT!! alas the jury were told that just how JB entered or exited the house was of little importance!!
What if the shooting had taken place in a locked bank vault with a timer?
But Jeremy admitted to slipping the catch on windows to gain entry ("secure windows, insecure windows..it makes no difference"). He had probably done it as a lark as a teenager, or arriving home late from Goldsmiths or the Frog and Beans and finding June had locked the doors.
-
Read Woodcocks Statement, he wasn’t satisfied, who are the 50 officers, there was woodcock showing him around WHF and Taff made his way out into the court yard after 25mins and called it suicide, he spoke to Miller, Stan and Cook, how could they call him out at this stage anyway The raid team had gone, and all these officers did was make the house safe, they weren’t there to form any judgement.
Woodcock states…….”I did not consider going to see any other senior officer because I felt that I had explained to the Officer IN CHARGE OF THE CASE WHAT I HAD SEEN and felt and it wasn’t in my mind to GO ABOVE HIM”
From Stone…….If we consider the way the senior
examination was
carried out the officers arrived at the scene, the SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICER (Taff) briefed the senior scene of crime officer as to the situation and FACTS. The senior investigating officer in this case made the assumption that he was investigating four murders and a suicide.
He later goes on to say…… I have to accept that the extent of the examination was perfunctory and we did not examine the premises to the extent we should have.
-
But Jeremy admitted to slipping the catch on windows to gain entry ("secure windows, insecure windows..it makes no difference"). He had probably done it as a lark as a teenager, or arriving home late from Goldsmiths or the Frog and Beans and finding June had locked the doors.
Fine, Steve! But the house was secured from the inside! All doors locked and bolted, all windows 'firmly' secured!
Taff doesn't mention any latches 'partially' secured, indicating an exit, does he??
Ann Eaton and her dad were playing about with the windows and getting results that did not match the way Taff found the kitchen window! nay all the windows, 'with all latches secured' !
-
Surely with a case like WHF where five people are found dead and one of them is holding the murder weapon, you have to conclude murder/suicide unless it was possible for someone to break in and kill everyone before staging the scene! That was the only other possibility, and to rule that possibility out someone had to determine if the house had been securely locked from the inside!
That was the only action needed to confirm murder/suicide, the one and only action.
And that was exactly what Taff did!! He took the only action 'needed' in order to rule out foul play from a third party, as it were.
And Taff certainly checked to see if all doors and windows were firmly secured, hence any chance of an 'intruder' carrying out the shooting and then exiting the house should have been ruled out, yes?
Now when we hear of all these police officers who thought that Sheila wasn't the killer from the start, just what part about the house being securely locked from the inside didn't they understand?
No, in reality, Taff did the only thing that was neccessary to rule out a third party killer before leaving, hence Sheila had to be the killer
And once Taff did check the house was secured there was nothing else for him to do, he wasn't a scene of crime officer was he, so why wait around?
BUT!! alas the jury were told that just how JB entered or exited the house was of little importance!!
What if the shooting had taken place in a locked bank vault with a timer?
Your bypassing what’s needed in a murder inquiry purely on a locked house, locked house proves nothing beyond someone inside, treating it as conclusive the way you are is the same as Taff did, he allowed a murder suicide call to be fixed within minutes of attending WHF, bypassing the forensic investigation required to establish who did what, and when, checking windows and doors is not a conclusion to a murder.
A locked bank vault wouldn’t change that either, you still investigate how events unfolded inside it. Locks don’t solve crimes; evidence does and forensics
-
Fine, Steve! But the house was secured from the inside! All doors locked and bolted, all windows 'firmly' secured!
Taff doesn't mention any latches 'partially' secured, indicating an exit, does he??
Ann Eaton and her dad were playing about with the windows and getting results that did not match the way Taff found the kitchen window! nay all the windows, 'with all latches secured' !
But Jeremy himself broke into the farm on 16 September, ostensibly to retrieve insurance documents, but conveniently giving himself an excuse for any marks on the casing or give on the frames. He no doubt was taunting police during those interrogations which occurred one week previously, so knew how law enforcement minds were thinking.
-
Fine, Steve! But the house was secured from the inside! All doors locked and bolted, all windows 'firmly' secured!
Taff doesn't mention any latches 'partially' secured, indicating an exit, does he??
Ann Eaton and her dad were playing about with the windows and getting results that did not match the way Taff found the kitchen window! nay all the windows, 'with all latches secured' !
And we all know how thorough Taff was with his 25 minute cameo appearance.
-
And we all know how thorough Taff was with his 25 minute cameo appearance.
No worse than many others promoted beyond their station, though given his role the incompetence proved far more detrimental.
-
No worse than many others promoted beyond their station, though given his role the incompetence proved far more detrimental.
Either way Steve for Bamber or for the murdered family, it was a shocking investigation lead by Taff Jones, absolutely shocking!
-
I must have missed this? where does he say this? COLP? no good being clever ages latter from the man who retypes page 5 of his ws on a different typewriter.
How do you support this retyping? Can you say which statement and how it can be seen. I think it is the copying and scanning which are on different settings. Thanks
-
How do you support this retyping? Can you say which statement and how it can be seen. I think it is the copying and scanning which are on different settings. Thanks
It's woodcock's statement of 20/09/85 Bubo it may be innocent but looks strange to me?
Look at the "g" for example.
-
It's woodcock's statement of 20/09/85 Bubo it may be innocent but looks strange to me?
Look at the "g" for example.
Yes I see your point. On page 4 the 'g' has a hollow looped tail while on page 5 the 'g' has a hook tail like this. Well spotted. I also notice that there appears to be a disconnect between the wording between the two pages. The last sentence on page 4 does not relate to the initial wording on page 5
-
No worse than many others promoted beyond their station, though given his role the incompetence proved far more detrimental.
It's strange Steve Taff was regarded as a excellent detective with some officers who worked with him unhappy at how he was portrayed and made to be a scapegoat.
He must have been pretty certain it was murder suicide.
-
Yes I see your point. On page 4 the 'g' has a hollow looped tail while on page 5 the 'g' has a hook tail like this. Well spotted. I also notice that there appears to be a disconnect between the wording between the two pages. The last sentence on page 4 does not relate to the initial wording on page 5
Just at a critical point when entering the kitchen as well Bubo.
I don't like this sort of thing, then there is West's hand copied log which to me is unforgivable.
-
Yes I see your point. On page 4 the 'g' has a hollow looped tail while on page 5 the 'g' has a hook tail like this. Well spotted. I also notice that there appears to be a disconnect between the wording between the two pages. The last sentence on page 4 does not relate to the initial wording on page 5
I am sure I read a statement where it says they struggled to enter the kitchen because Nevil was behind the door Bubo? But cannot now find it anywhere.
It looks like the top of page 5 is where it may have been cut out? Or have I gone nutty!
-
It's strange Steve Taff was regarded as a excellent detective with some officers who worked with him unhappy at how he was portrayed and made to be a scapegoat.
He must have been pretty certain it was murder suicide.
He did have over a year to persuade people not to change direction. Or leave the case/EP in protest.
But didn't.
-
It's strange Steve Taff was regarded as a excellent detective with some officers who worked with him unhappy at how he was portrayed and made to be a scapegoat.
He must have been pretty certain it was murder suicide.
Do we know if the trial defence produced any written evidence to that effect i.e. Taff's notes, memos, etc
-
He did have over a year to persuade people not to change direction. Or leave the case/EP in protest.
But didn't.
Changes was made to policing after the Bamber case…….issues with police handling of the Jeremy Bamber case led to an official review and the introduction of tightened national procedures for major investigations and crime scene preservation.
The initial police investigation into the 1985 White House Farm murders, where five members of the Bamber family were killed, was widely criticized for a "bungled" approach and significant errors, primarily because the scene was initially treated as a MURDER SUICIDE and not secured as a potential murder scene.
Key problems identified included:
The senior investigating officer (TAFF) wrongly concluding it was a murder-suicide, which meant normal murder case procedures were not followed.
Following a report on the investigation, the Home Secretary ordered a review of police procedures, and Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary conducted a separate review, resulting in 18 recommendations for the police service and reinforcing standard procedures for managing major inquiries. These steps led to improved protocols for handling evidence and securing crime scenes.
When Taff told and briefed Cook it was suicide and gave him the run down of Bambers phone call from his Father, he was already relying and bought into Bamber’s account that Sheila had “gone crazy with a gun.” Having accepted that and what Bamber had told them, This acceptance obviously shows with his brief twenty five minute cameo visit and this then filtered down to those under his command.
It should be obvious to anyone with half a brain the investigation was seriously lacking, a multiple homicide/murder of this scale should never be approached with tunnel vision, its basic Management progress and the thing I was taught in the mines, tunnel vision is replaced with funnel vision!
-
It's woodcock's statement of 20/09/85 Bubo it may be innocent but looks strange to me?
Look at the "g" for example.
Yes you got this from Mike. Could be innocent like you said, that page could have been rewritten after and because Woodcock was happy about something on there, I know I’ve done lots of Statements for Accidents in the mine, it never comes back with what or how you said it anyway?
-
It's strange Steve Taff was regarded as a excellent detective with some officers who worked with him unhappy at how he was portrayed and made to be a scapegoat.
He must have been pretty certain it was murder suicide.
DCI Jones was one of the last to arrive at SOC. Chief Sup Harris, along with police surgeon Dr Craig, had already concluded murder/suicide This was before DCI Jones arrived and obviously before he checked all the windows and found them secured from within.
-
Changes was made to policing after the Bamber case…….issues with police handling of the Jeremy Bamber case led to an official review and the introduction of tightened national procedures for major investigations and crime scene preservation.
The initial police investigation into the 1985 White House Farm murders, where five members of the Bamber family were killed, was widely criticized for a "bungled" approach and significant errors, primarily because the scene was initially treated as a MURDER SUICIDE and not secured as a potential murder scene.
Key problems identified included:
The senior investigating officer (TAFF) wrongly concluding it was a murder-suicide, which meant normal murder case procedures were not followed.
Following a report on the investigation, the Home Secretary ordered a review of police procedures, and Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary conducted a separate review, resulting in 18 recommendations for the police service and reinforcing standard procedures for managing major inquiries. These steps led to improved protocols for handling evidence and securing crime scenes.
When Taff told and briefed Cook it was suicide and gave him the run down of Bambers phone call from his Father, he was already relying and bought into Bamber’s account that Sheila had “gone crazy with a gun.” Having accepted that and what Bamber had told them, This acceptance obviously shows with his brief twenty five minute cameo visit and this then filtered down to those under his command.
It should be obvious to anyone with half a brain the investigation was seriously lacking, a multiple homicide/murder of this scale should never be approached with tunnel vision, its basic Management progress and the thing I was taught in the mines, tunnel vision is replaced with funnel vision!
DCI Jones was one of the last to arrive at SOC. Chief Sup Harris, along with police surgeon Dr Craig, had already concluded murder/suicide This was before DCI Jones arrived and obviously before he checked all the windows and found them secured from within.
-
DCI Jones was one of the last to arrive at SOC. Chief Sup Harris, along with police surgeon Dr Craig, had already concluded murder/suicide This was before DCI Jones arrived and obviously before he checked all the windows and found them secured from within.
Not disputing that, he went in with the mind set of murder suicide, he was the senior officer in charge and had authority to conduct a proper investigation. If you think it was handled well by Taff, that’s your opinion, I don’t think it was, not only for the murdered Family, but also for Bamber himself and it’s why we’re here now!
-
This is one of the things that really baffles me about this case...the importance placed on the role of DCI Jones at the SOC on the morning of 7th Aug. It is a complete and utter myth that DCI Jones wrote the SOC off as murder/suicide. In reality DCI Jones was one of the last officers to arrive at SOC. By the time he arrived it had long been designated murder/suicide by Chief Sup Harris supported by police surgeon Dr Craig. What is difficult to accept and understand about this? Why is it a myth perpetuated to eternity?
-
Not disputing that, he went in with the mind set of murder suicide, he was the senior officer in charge and had authority to conduct a proper investigation. If you think it was handled well by Taff, that’s your opinion, I don’t think it was, not only for the murdered Family, but also for Bamber himself and it’s why we’re here now!
DCI 'Taff' Jones was heavily criticised
The trial judge, Mr Justice Drake, formally expressed concern about the "less than thorough investigation". Subsequently, the Home Secretary in 1989 stated that "errors were made in the early stages of the police investigation contrary to existing force practice". Jones was later removed from the case, and attention shifted to Jeremy Bamber, who was arrested a month after the murders and eventually convicted based on new evidence, including testimony from his ex-girlfriend Julie Mugford.
-
This is one of the things that really baffles me about this case...the importance placed on the role of DCI Jones at the SOC on the morning of 7th Aug. It is a complete and utter myth that DCI Jones wrote the SOC off as murder/suicide. In reality DCI Jones was one of the last officers to arrive at SOC. By the time he arrived it had long been designated murder/suicide by Chief Sup Harris supported by police surgeon Dr Craig. What is difficult to accept and understand about this? Why is it a myth perpetuated to eternity?
Woodcock states he came out after a 25 mins cameo appearance and addressed Miller, Cook and Jones, it’s Suicide. Draw your own conclusions from that! He then went into detail about what Bamber had given them? He told Cooke he didn’t want a full house search.
-
Not disputing that, he went in with the mind set of murder suicide, he was the senior officer in charge and had authority to conduct a proper investigation. If you think it was handled well by Taff, that’s your opinion, I don’t think it was, not only for the murdered Family, but also for Bamber himself and it’s why we’re here now!
Who is he? Chief Sup Harris or DCI Jones?
DCI Jones was one of the last officers to arrive at SOC. If he went in with the mindset of murder/suicide why did he bother checking all the windows? Why did he bother examining the soc and writing notes in his pocket book about the soc?
I accept a pathologist, ballistics and biologist should have been called to soc but all the relevant physical evidence was captured. If you disagree with the latter what was lost?
The ultimate reason we are here now is because of corruption and incompetence at FSS.
-
This is one of the things that really baffles me about this case...the importance placed on the role of DCI Jones at the SOC on the morning of 7th Aug. It is a complete and utter myth that DCI Jones wrote the SOC off as murder/suicide. In reality DCI Jones was one of the last officers to arrive at SOC. By the time he arrived it had long been designated murder/suicide by Chief Sup Harris supported by police surgeon Dr Craig. What is difficult to accept and understand about this? Why is it a myth perpetuated to eternity?
It would baffle you, that’s not hard anyway. You want to believe that Taff called it right. I say it was a piss poor investigation backed up by the home office and the trial Judge, it was lead by the senior detective in charge Taff jones, it doesn’t matter what he was told by Harris or anyone else, the buck stops with him as to how the investigation progressed, seniors above him hide behind his mistakes anyway.
-
Who is he? Chief Sup Harris or DCI Jones?
DCI Jones was one of the last officers to arrive at SOC. If he went in with the mindset of murder/suicide why did he bother checking all the windows? Why did he bother examining the soc and writing notes in his pocket book about the soc?
I accept a pathologist, ballistics and biologist should have been called to soc but all the relevant physical evidence was captured. If you disagree with the latter what was lost?
The ultimate reason we are here now is because of corruption and incompetence at FSS.
Your not forgetting Stan Jones surely are you? Why are you leaving him out all of a sudden?
-
Woodcock states he came out after a 25 mins cameo appearance and addressed Miller, Cook and Jones, it’s Suicide. Draw your own conclusions from that! He then went into detail about what Bamber had given them? He told Cooke he didn’t want a full house search.
Who is he?
The conclusions I draw are from the ws's of Chief Sup Harris and police surgeon Dr Craig. The pair formed the opinion, based on decades of experience, that the soc was murder/suicide long before DCI Jones arrived.
-
Your not forgetting Stan Jones surely are you? Why are you leaving him out all of a sudden?
I used the word "ultimate". JB's conviction is based on claims of a flake of blood. This 'evidence' came about from the FSS.
-
Who is he?
The conclusions I draw are from the ws's of Chief Sup Harris and police surgeon Dr Craig. The pair formed the opinion, based on decades of experience, that the soc was murder/suicide long before DCI Jones arrived.
Dont talk stupid, Craig arrived at 8.30amn he finished certifying death at 8,50am Taff arrived at 9.00am, where’s he got time to go over forensic analysis with Harris before Taff Arrived, this is the level of investigation you accept! It was a murder scene that needed in depth investigation and not Cameo appearances. Fking long before my Arse! Craig experienced to conduct a SOC murder investigation in 25 mins, don’t make me laugh 😂😂😂😂
-
Dont talk stupid, Craig arrived at 8.30amn he finished certifying death at 8,50am Taff arrived at 9.00am, where’s he got time to go over forensic analysis with Harris before Taff Arrived, this is the level of investigation you accept! It was a murder scene that needed in depth investigation and not Cameo appearances. Fking long before my Arse! Craig experienced to conduct a SOC murder investigation in 25 mins, don’t make me laugh 😂😂😂😂
Did I say any of what you have claimed above? Comprehension is clearly not your strong point.
I said Chief Sup Harris along with Dr Craig designated the soc murder/suicide long before DCI Jones arrived.
-
Dont talk stupid, Craig arrived at 8.30amn he finished certifying death at 8,50am Taff arrived at 9.00am, where’s he got time to go over forensic analysis with Harris before Taff Arrived, this is the level of investigation you accept! It was a murder scene that needed in depth investigation and not Cameo appearances. Fking long before my Arse! Craig experienced to conduct a SOC murder investigation in 25 mins, don’t make me laugh 😂😂😂😂
From Harris, he had a brief discussion with Taff when he arrived, and they had an appointment at Chelmsford Head Post Office at 10.30am so left the scene with Detective Chief Inspector JONES at
9.34am. Great detective work of a major crime scene and I I must apologise looks like Taffs cameo was 34mins and not 30 mins.
-
Did I say any of what you have claimed above? Comprehension is clearly not your strong point.
I said Chief Sup Harris along with Dr Craig designated the soc murder/suicide long before DCI Jones arrived.
Nope, your trying to be very clever like your being with Stan and the window climbing, you never included the word Designation, your downplaying your response…
formed the opinion, based on decades of experience, long before DCI Jones arrived…. You didn’t say “designation” you said “formed the opinion, based on decades of experience.”
Comprehension might not be be my strongest point, but spotting a bullshitter is!
-
From Harris, he had a brief discussion with Taff when he arrived, and they had an appointment at Chelmsford Head Post Office at 10.30am so left the scene with Detective Chief Inspector JONES at
9.34am. Great detective work of a major crime scene and I I must apologise looks like Taffs cameo was 34mins and not 30 mins.
Chief Sup Harris and Dr Craig designated the soc murder/suicide based on decades of experience.
DCI Jones was one of the last officers to arrive at soc. He checked all the windows were secured from within and made various notes in his pocket book about the soc all of which supported murder/suicide.
The post mortems supported murder/suicide.
Soc officers, under the supervision of DC Cook: DS Davidson, DC Hammersley and DC Bird captured all relevant evidence at the soc: extensive photography, casings, exited bullets, casings, samples of blood stains to carpets and wallpaper. (As DC Hammersley told the court at trial nothing of evidential value was lost).
All supported murder/suicide.
A review was instructed. This was undertaken by Det Sup Kenneally. He too came to the conclusion of murder/suicide.
It was murder/suicide until DS Jones conspired with the relatives to get the ball rolling on 5 x murders.
-
Chief Sup Harris and Dr Craig designated the soc murder/suicide based on decades of experience.
DCI Jones was one of the last officers to arrive at soc. He checked all the windows were secured from within and made various notes in his pocket book about the soc all of which supported murder/suicide.
The post mortems supported murder/suicide.
Soc officers, under the supervision of DC Cook: DS Davidson, DC Hammersley and DC Bird captured all relevant evidence at the soc: extensive photography, casings, exited bullets, casings, samples of blood stains to carpets and wallpaper. (As DC Hammersley told the court at trial nothing of evidential value was lost).
All supported murder/suicide.
A review was instructed. This was undertaken by Det Sup Kenneally. He too came to the conclusion of murder/suicide.
It was murder/suicide until DS Jones conspired with the relatives to get the ball rolling on 5 x murders.
Again your jumping in with stupid comments, Harris and Craig formed that view before:
• full scene examination,
• post-mortems,
• SOC processing,
• any formal review. And a 25 minute cameo appearance.
We all know how long Taffs appearance was, so he conducted a full scale evaluation of a 5x murder scene, he had time to do a full window check in the 25 minute appearance and came to the conclusion Murder/suicide.
You alleging that DS Jones conspired with the relatives is a serious claim. If there is evidence for that, it should be stated. If not, it’s just your speculation.
-
I am sure I read a statement where it says they struggled to enter the kitchen because Nevil was behind the door Bubo? But cannot now find it anywhere.
It looks like the top of page 5 is where it may have been cut out? Or have I gone nutty!
It looks to me like they rewrote the page. The '5' has longer gaps with the hyphens.
-
It looks to me like they rewrote the page. The '5' has longer gaps with the hyphens.
It is on page 5 that the statement outlines the found position of NB with his head in the scuttle. If they moved him to this position they would have to create a new page 5.
-
Chief Sup Harris and Dr Craig designated the soc murder/suicide based on decades of experience.
DCI Jones was one of the last officers to arrive at soc. He checked all the windows were secured from within and made various notes in his pocket book about the soc all of which supported murder/suicide.
The post mortems supported murder/suicide.
Soc officers, under the supervision of DC Cook: DS Davidson, DC Hammersley and DC Bird captured all relevant evidence at the soc: extensive photography, casings, exited bullets, casings, samples of blood stains to carpets and wallpaper. (As DC Hammersley told the court at trial nothing of evidential value was lost).
All supported murder/suicide.
A review was instructed. This was undertaken by Det Sup Kenneally. He too came to the conclusion of murder/suicide.
It was murder/suicide until DS Jones conspired with the relatives to get the ball rolling on 5 x murders.
The agreement on the day was murder/suicide. Mainly as Bamber was insinuating it.
Once evidence was processed it became murder.
-
The agreement on the day was murder/suicide. Mainly as Bamber was insinuating it.
Once evidence was processed it became murder.
What did JB tell officers that was factually incorrect?
-
What did JB tell officers that was factually incorrect?
Nevill called him & Sheila knew how to use the weapons.
Nevill did not like involving the police.
He had rang Witham.
-
Nevill called him & Sheila knew how to use the weapons.
The physical evidence at soc supports NB calling JB. SC evidently knew how to use the rifle because she murdered 4 people with it and took her own life.
Nevill did not like involving the police.
It is well documented that the Bambers (June and NB) were very private people concerning family matters.
He had rang Witham.
He? NB? If this is what you're claiming, JB claimed this years later. It is not something I agree with. There is no evidence that NB called anyone other than JB and this is supported by the soc.
-
Nevill called him & Sheila knew how to use the weapons.
Nevill did not like involving the police.
He had rang Witham.
I believe he also told them that Sheila had previously attempted suicide.
-
What did JB tell officers that was factually incorrect?
Nothing, and your right to ask this, he was the only witness alive, so they were bound to listen to him, but there is a difference between listening and believing, an open mind should be maintained until evidence is gathered, and it goes back to my earlier comment….. tunnel vision…. tunnel vision" refers to a harmful cognitive bias leading to a narrow-minded investigation,
-
The physical evidence at soc supports NB calling JB. SC evidently knew how to use the rifle because she murdered 4 people with it and took her own life.
It is well documented that the Bambers (June and NB) were very private people concerning family matters.
He? NB? If this is what you're claiming, JB claimed this years later. It is not something I agree with. There is no evidence that NB called anyone other than JB and this is supported by the soc.
There is a very narrow window where Nevill could phone Bamber. After receiving his 4 shots & before the kitchen attack. However huge benefits of the doubt have to applied on multiple issues.
Please provide the source that Nevill did not like involving the police when someone has 'gone crazy' with a gun.
Bamber said he rang Witham.
-
I believe he also told them that Sheila had previously attempted suicide.
Believe he also said Sheila had committed child abuse.
Later toned down to hitting the twins in a car. Something he was the only alive witness for.
-
The physical evidence at soc supports NB calling JB. SC evidently knew how to use the rifle because she murdered 4 people with it and took her own life.
Here we go again Cutie and her “SOCS”. “SOC” as she likes to put it, is being used to make her post sound unchallengeable, when in fact, the courts rejected this, and Sheila was found to be a victim, and not the shooter as you say, so EVIDENTLY as you put it, has no factual basis.
The courts found that Sheila was murdered by Bamber. They did not find that Sheila murdered four people and took her own life and they rejected there was a call from Neville to Bamber.
-
It is well documented that the Bambers (June and NB) were very private people concerning family matters.
So we’ve heard, but Being private about family matters doesn’t mean someone wouldn’t seek emergency help in a crisis. Was there some family code of conduct, “Do not call 999 under any circumstances”? Was this supported by your “SOC” as well?
-
Dont talk stupid, Craig arrived at 8.30amn he finished certifying death at 8,50am Taff arrived at 9.00am, where’s he got time to go over forensic analysis with Harris before Taff Arrived, this is the level of investigation you accept! It was a murder scene that needed in depth investigation and not Cameo appearances. Fking long before my Arse! Craig experienced to conduct a SOC murder investigation in 25 mins, don’t make me laugh 😂😂😂😂
Ah yes, Dr Craig who spent less than 30 minutes at the scene, bottle of whiskey on the hip.
-
Ah yes, Dr Craig who spent less than 30 minutes at the scene, bottle of whiskey on the hip.
I agree, Cutie uses him as though he’s a forensic expert and with his 25 mins appearance inside WHF he’d sorted the whole suicide murder theory out.
-
I wonder what his conclusion was on the burn marks? Oh wait he never done an examination in the first place.
PS, don't refer to her as "cutie" she does not live up to that description, trust me.
Cant remember why he didn’t do a body temp can you?
-
Cant remember why he didn’t do a body temp can you?
From my perspective it is obvious.
-
From my perspective it is obvious.
I couldn’t remember what reason he gave?
-
I couldn’t remember what reason he gave?
He probably wasn’t asked?
-
Cant remember why he didn’t do a body temp can you?
Found it, I thought ut was something to do with this.
-
Found it, I thought ut was something to do with this.
Once again you return to the investigation where EP marked their own homework. Keneally had already conducted a review and said it was SC.
-
Once again you return to the investigation where EP marked their own homework. Keneally had already conducted a review and said it was SC.
What do you mean, I was looking for the reason that Dr Craig didn’t take body temp? Where’s Keneally come in with found it?
-
Cant remember why he didn’t do a body temp can you?
But even if he had it is not a determinant of tod especially in a relatively small window. From Prof Knight:
Professor Bernard Knight, a renowned forensic pathologist and writer, highlighted in his work that body temperature is not an "exact" measurement due to the wide range of physiological and environmental factors that cause it to fluctuate, making it an unreliable sole indicator for precise estimations like time of death in forensic science.
-
But even if he had it is not a determinant of tod especially in a relatively small window. From Prof Knight:
Professor Bernard Knight, a renowned forensic pathologist and writer, highlighted in his work that body temperature is not an "exact" measurement due to the wide range of physiological and environmental factors that cause it to fluctuate, making it an unreliable sole indicator for precise estimations like time of death in forensic science.
I know, but it might have shut the conspiracy theorists up who think that the Police shot June or the Police shot Sheila?
-
There is a very narrow window where Nevill could phone Bamber. After receiving his 4 shots & before the kitchen attack. However huge benefits of the doubt have to applied on multiple issues.
Please provide the source that Nevill did not like involving the police when someone has 'gone crazy' with a gun.
Bamber said he rang Witham.
NB called JB before any shots were fired. He left the phone to run upstairs when SC opened fire on June. This is what all the physcial evidence supports. You know this hence your tagline except others know too.
I never said NB did not like involving the police when someone had 'gone crazy' with a gun. I said it is well documented the Bambers were private people especially with regards to family matters.
Bamber is wrong. NB did not call Witham as evidenced by the soc.
-
I know, but it might have shut the conspiracy theorists up who think that the Police shot June or the Police shot Sheila?
Nothing anyone says will the shut the conspiracy theorists up. They go from one totally unhinged theory to another.
-
Unlike you I have previously uploaded my image to the forum. The image is now my avatar. Hows about you uploading your image and then we can all see how aesthetically challenged you are.
As Jeremy said in the police car it's what's inside that matters!
-
Cant remember why he didn’t do a body temp can you?
Because he never done an examination.
-
Because he never done an examination.
I agree David, he was in and out in No time, he said of Sheila “there was what appeared to be an entry wound to her throat” Yet Cutie has him as a “SOC” Expert 😂😂🙈
-
I agree David, he was in and out in No time, he said of Sheila “there was what appeared to be an entry wound to her throat” Yet Cutie has him as a “SOC” Expert 😂😂🙈
Wrong! I did not refer to him as a soc expert. I have always referred to him as the police surgeon. His role was to certify death not to interfere with the victims.
-
Because he never done an examination.
did.
His role was to certify death. End of.
-
NB called JB before any shots were fired. He left the phone to run upstairs when SC opened fire on June. This is what all the physcial evidence supports. You know this hence your tagline except others know too.
I never said NB did not like involving the police when someone had 'gone crazy' with a gun. I said it is well documented the Bambers were private people especially with regards to family matters.
Bamber is wrong. NB did not call Witham as evidenced by the soc.
That's just supposition on your part. Ann Eaton described Nevill as like a lion tamer; he certainly wasn't about to involve problem son Jeremy in his calculations. As for said son Jeremy, why does he tell PC West: "I don't think he's kidding around." Was Nevill in the habit of calling Bourtree Cottage in the wee hours during harvest?
-
I think the Moderators will be busy tonight. I hope Storm Goretti doesn't cause too much damage in their area.
-
I think the Moderators will be busy tonight. I hope Storm Goretti doesn't cause too much damage in their area.
It will blow over Steve. Storm in a teacup.
-
I think the Moderators will be busy tonight. I hope Storm Goretti doesn't cause too much damage in their area.
Well there may well be power lines down in places, Steve!
But!! Its the homeless who needs your prayers I fear!
I dont think I would last a week out in the cold!
-
Well there may well be power lines down in places, Steve!
But!! Its the homeless who needs your prayers I fear, Steve!
I dont think I would last a week out in the cold!
We've got into an awful mess as a society: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqxy09yl7d9o
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/teachers-strike-over-culture-of-violence-by-pupils-at-two-primary-schools/ar-AA1TLxh4?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=695f861490b345a9aa87ec789f96c1cf&ei=10&cvpid=695f8918f7cc4cdb89f67ff85b6e7c38
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/horror-as-three-schoolchildren-fall-from-window-of-manchester-double-decker-bus/ar-AA1TL3Pu?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=695f861490b345a9aa87ec789f96c1cf&ei=10
-
We've got into an awful mess as a society: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqxy09yl7d9o
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/teachers-strike-over-culture-of-violence-by-pupils-at-two-primary-schools/ar-AA1TLxh4?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=695f861490b345a9aa87ec789f96c1cf&ei=10&cvpid=695f8918f7cc4cdb89f67ff85b6e7c38
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/horror-as-three-schoolchildren-fall-from-window-of-manchester-double-decker-bus/ar-AA1TL3Pu?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=695f861490b345a9aa87ec789f96c1cf&ei=10
I think somewhere along the line, discipline and respect got confused with abuse, Steve!
-
The agreement on the day was murder/suicide. Mainly as Bamber was insinuating it.
Once evidence was processed it became murder.
No it was murder / suicide because that's what the crime scene supported. Windows secured, Sheila looked to have died latter than the other victims etc. etc.
It become murder once evidence was fabricated. Two silencers examined at the lab etc.
-
No it was murder / suicide because that's what the crime scene supported. Windows secured, Sheila looked to have died latter than the other victims etc. etc.
It become murder once evidence was fabricated. Two silencers examined at the lab etc.
Yes the Scene suggested Murder Suicide, but it’s the evidence decides the outcome, That’s how investigations are supposed to work. Your Fabrication claims need proof and not a three inch leg up.
-
The crime scene was staged.
Krystal Candelario staged the scene inside before ringing the police. Not very well.
Then was confident when giving her narrative to the police at the scene. She would have thought the police would not believe she would kill her own daughter.
Sound familiar?
-
Yes the Scene suggested Murder Suicide, but it’s the evidence decides the outcome, That’s how investigations are supposed to work. Your Fabrication claims need proof and not a three inch leg up.
There's not much evidence Sheila might have done it that doesn't come from Bamber or could have been arranged by him.
-
I agree David, he was in and out in No time, he said of Sheila “there was what appeared to be an entry wound to her throat” Yet Cutie has him as a “SOC” Expert 😂😂🙈
Had he actually took body temperature none of this would have happened and we wouldn't be discussing this case. Instead we have JBs campaign team taking his word on only noticing one gun shot wound to Sheila.
-
Had he actually took body temperature none of this would have happened and we wouldn't be discussing this case. Instead we have JBs campaign team taking his word on only noticing one gun shot wound to Sheila.
I agree David, so many errors.
-
Had he actuallytookbody temperature none of this would have happened and we wouldn't be discussing this case. Instead we have JBs campaign team taking his word on only noticing one gun shot wound to Sheila.
taken.
Wrong. Tod is not an exact science.
Professor Bernard Knight, a renowned forensic pathologist and writer, highlighted in his work that body temperature is not an "exact" measurement due to the wide range of physiological and environmental factors that cause it to fluctuate, making it an unreliable sole indicator for precise estimations like time of death in forensic science.
Experience vs. Certainty: According to a book review of one of his authoritative texts, Knight suggested that "certainty comes more easily to those who lack the experience to appreciate the interplay between all the variables which can be involved" in determining the time of death.
You have been advised numerous times that Dr Craig's role was to certify death not to interfere with victims by attempting to reveal the number of gunshot wounds. Had he done, the likes of yourself would be chomping at the bit about how he interfered with the victims.
-
I agree David, so many errors.
Who made so many errors and what basis?
-
Who made so many errors and what basis?
I think you’ve conceded before on this Cutie, no Pathologist, no ballistics and a reluctance to do a thorough house search, that’s just a start.
-
I think you’ve conceded before on this Cutie, no Pathologist, no ballistics and a reluctance to do a thorough house search, that’s just a start.
I agree ballistics, biologist and pathologist should have been called to the soc. I thought you were referring to mistakes by Dr Craig.
-
I agree ballistics, biologist and pathologist should have been called to the soc. I thought you were referring to mistakes by Dr Craig.
Did not the pathologist register some irritation at being informed his presence wasn't required? Who was it who told him this?
-
Did not the pathologist register some irritation at being informed his presence wasn't required? Who was it who told him this?
He said that he was not needed until 15.00pm.
-
Had he actually took body temperature none of this would have happened and we wouldn't be discussing this case. Instead we have JBs campaign team taking his word on only noticing one gun shot wound to Sheila.
I am not so sure David? the difference in body temperature over say 3 hours would be half a degree or something like that.
We would still be saying it's not conclusive like the lividity not being on Sheila and food in her stomach etc.
-
I am not so sure David? the difference in body temperature over say 3 hours would be half a degree or something like that.
We would still be saying it's not conclusive like the lividity not being on Sheila and food in her stomach etc.
All of this was pored over by Prof Knight for the defence. If it had the sort of meaning you and others believe it has then why did Prof Knight not flag it up?
-
All of this was pored over by Prof Knight for the defence. If it had the sort of meaning you and others believe it has then why did Prof Knight not flag it up?
It's inconclusive I agree, we are talking about deaths occurring over a relatively short time span.
We are allowed to have an opinion Cc though, how many innocent people have been executed/given life sentences by so called incompetent experts that the jury have believed word for word?
-
Had he actually took body temperature none of this would have happened and we wouldn't be discussing this case. Instead we have JBs campaign team taking his word on only noticing one gun shot wound to Sheila.
Same for all five victims. If you take the wording literally, all the victims had a single gunshot wound!
-
It's inconclusive I agree, we are talking about deaths occurring over a relatively short time span.
We are allowed to have an opinion Cc though, how many innocent people have been executed/given life sentences by so called incompetent experts that the jury have believed word for word?
Yes but don't expect not to called out when it doesn't stack up.
Prof Knight was an expert for the defence. He had an illustrious career spanning decades. Not a whiff of incompetence or wrongdoing. Conversely the FSS was called out by Parliament for quality failings during the 80's. And the director at FSS Huntingdon at the time the Bamber exhibits were under examination was charged with perverting the course of justice in another case.
-
Same for all five victims. If you take the wording literally, all the victims had a single gunshot wound!
His words are "I saw only one gunshot wound at that stage"
(https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3125.0;attach=19694)
-
His words are "I saw only one gunshot wound at that stage"
Only Woodcock to my knowledge said they saw two bullet wounds? and I don't trust what he says anyway.
-
Only Woodcock to my knowledge said they saw two bullet wounds? and I don't trust what he says anyway.
That's why crime scene photos are taken.
-
His words are "I saw only one gunshot wound at that stage"
(https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3125.0;attach=19694)
Was it the lower or upper wound?
Did he see soc images?
-
Was it the lower or upper wound?
Did he see soc images?
What do you mean Cutie did he see SOC images, he’s writing it what he seen at the time he was there, not what he seen after?