Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Lucy522 on April 22, 2017, 04:54:PM
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So I promised Adam I would write up a scenario on Sheila being the killer,
What are people's views that maybe, Sheila injured Neville with gun in the kitchen first but no shots were fired at that time, he then, made the pbonevall to Jeremy and said "Sheilas got the gun and gone mad" or words to that effect , Instead of phoning 999 because shots had not been fired at that time and he felt that he and or Jeremy together could regain control of the situation without alerting the police.
Please don't be rude to me I would like to discuss people's views on why or why not this could of happened.
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So I promised Adam I would write up a scenario on Sheila being the killer,
What are people's views that maybe, Sheila injured Neville with gun in the kitchen first but no shots were fired at that time, he then, made the pbonevall to Jeremy and said "Sheilas got the gun and gone mad" or words to that effect , Instead of phoning 999 because shots had not been fired at that time and he felt that he and or Jeremy together could regain control of the situation without alerting the police.
Please don't be rude to me I would like to discuss people's views on why or why not this could of happened.
Trouble Lucy it is clear that Neville was first shot in his bedroom.
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So I promised Adam I would write up a scenario on Sheila being the killer,
What are people's views that maybe, Sheila injured Neville with gun in the kitchen first but no shots were fired at that time, he then, made the pbonevall to Jeremy and said "Sheilas got the gun and gone mad" or words to that effect , Instead of phoning 999 because shots had not been fired at that time and he felt that he and or Jeremy together could regain control of the situation without alerting the police.
Please don't be rude to me I would like to discuss people's views on why or why not this could of happened.
If we have a very injured Nevill in the kitchen first, it requires him to have run upstairs afterwards from where, having sustained even more injuries, he then has to make his way downstairs again having achieved nothing by way of stopping Sheila. Before any of this occurs, we have to ask why Sheila would wish to hurt her favourite parent. Then we have to wonder why she'd have chosen to die near the mother with whom she had a difficult relationship and 'abandon' her babies who she loved to pieces.
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Trouble Lucy it is clear that Neville was first shot in his bedroom.
Yes but could he of been injured first in a confrontation with Sheila in the kitchen?
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If we have a very injured Nevill in the kitchen first, it requires him to have run upstairs afterwards from where, having sustained even more injuries, he then has to make his way downstairs again having achieved nothing by way of stopping Sheila. Before any of this occurs, we have to ask why Sheila would wish to hurt her favourite parent. Then we have to wonder why she'd have chosen to die near the mother with whom she had a difficult relationship and 'abandon' her babies who she loved to pieces.
Freddie said that she was so bad one day she didn't even recognise people maybe she wanted to go and shoot her mother and Neville got in the way, there had to be time from the first to second shot in the bedroom and it seems from the experts opinion she was laying flat at the time?
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Yes but could he of been injured first in a confrontation with Sheila in the kitchen?
I've allowed for that. Sheila goes upstairs first. He follows her, Why would he not hurl himself at her rather than allowing her time to go on shooting?
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So I promised Adam I would write up a scenario on Sheila being the killer,
What are people's views that maybe, Sheila injured Neville with gun in the kitchen first but no shots were fired at that time, he then, made the pbonevall to Jeremy and said "Sheilas got the gun and gone mad" or words to that effect , Instead of phoning 999 because shots had not been fired at that time and he felt that he and or Jeremy together could regain control of the situation without alerting the police.
Please don't be rude to me I would like to discuss people's views on why or why not this could of happened.
Depends on what you mean by injuring Neville with the gun first Lucy, I think if Sheila was the killer Neville would have had to been shot and wounded before Sheila would inflict damage with the gun in a fight, It was stated that Neville put up a spirited fight/defence of himself.
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Freddie said that she was so bad one day she didn't even recognise people maybe she wanted to go and shoot her mother and Neville got in the way, there had to be time from the first to second shot in the bedroom and it seems from the experts opinion she was laying flat at the time?
But that would have been before she'd been stabilised on medication. I haven't factored in that she was over sedated so obviously wouldn't have been fleet of foot.
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Depends on what you mean by injuring Neville with the gun first Lucy, I think if Sheila was the killer Neville would have had to been shot and wounded before Sheila would inflict damage with the gun in a fight, It was stated that Neville put up a spirited fight/defence of himself.
Maybe the hit to the head and the scratch marks on his arm indicate a struggle with someone with nails, he then phoned Jeremy never believing she would use it? He followed her upstairs hence why he was shot in the doorway, maybe she was in the room shooting at June? He only made it as far as the entry to the room before she began firing at him? Jeremy said he sounded agitated on the phone IF that phone call took place something would of already occurred, if it was shots I believe Neville would of phoned 999 not Jeremy?,
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But that would have been before she'd been stabilised on medication. I haven't factored in that she was over sedated so obviously wouldn't have been fleet of foot.
I just don't believe that after halving her dosage she would of been so slow, she was out and about and left in charge of the twins, do you believe the fostering story?
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Maybe the hit to the head and the scratch marks on his arm indicate a struggle with someone with nails, he then phoned Jeremy never believing she would use it? He followed her upstairs hence why he was shot in the doorway, maybe she was in the room shooting at June? He only made it as far as the entry to the room before she began firing at him? Jeremy said he sounded agitated on the phone IF that phone call took place something would of already occurred, if it was shots I believe Neville would of phoned 999 not Jeremy?,
If she was intent on killing everyone, why hit him first? Why not shoot him there and then?
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I just don't believe that after halving her dosage she would of been so slow, she was out and about and left in charge of the twins, do you believe the fostering story?
Which goes against everything which had been said of her during her last fortnight. She certainly wasn't "out and about" at least, of her own volition, whilst at the farm -other than once when she was seen with the boys and the wording of the incident changes according to who's telling it. I have my doubts about "fostering" per se, but I'll allow that more day care MAY have been mentioned. Sheila only had the boys at weekends. If she'd REALLY needed extra help with them during that time, I think there WOULD be very serious cause to be concerned about her ability to cope.
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If she was intent on killing everyone, why hit him first? Why not shoot him there and then?
I don't believe her intent in the beginning was to kill, I believe she was in the grip of n episode and totally lost it.
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Which goes against everything which had been said of her during her last fortnight. She certainly wasn't "out and about" at least, of her own volition, whilst at the farm -other than once when she was seen with the boys and the wording of the incident changes according to who's telling it. I have my doubts about "fostering" per se, but I'll allow that more day care MAY have been mentioned. Sheila only had the boys at weekends. If she'd REALLY needed extra help with them during that time, I think there WOULD be very serious cause to be concerned about her ability to cope.
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Yes Jane, do you believe as I do that June was very concerned about her health?
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Four of the shots were believed to have been fired to the head after he had ceased to struggle
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Trouble Lucy it is clear that Neville was first shot in his bedroom.
Wrong.
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Wrong.
David can you tell me what you think please?,
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Yes Jane, do you believe as I do that June was very concerned about her health?
Given what I'm told of June's personality, I think she needed something to worry about. Her Christian 'hobby' was all about looking out for others less fortunate. It can't be easy for any mother with a mentally ill daughter with children, especially when they believe themselves to be a better influence on them, than their father. June would have observed Sheila's behaviour. She'd have noted her lethargy -it's interesting that you don't believe her to have been lethargic- and lack of energy, and disinterest generally. I think it's fair to say June WAS worried.
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Four of the shots were believed to have been fired to the head after he had ceased to struggle
So what happened first?,
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So what happened first?,
It's dependent on where you believe him to have been PLUS what time you believe the massacre to have started. I can see it being likely that the non firearm injuries were used to subdue him whilst the gun was being reloaded.
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David can you tell me what you think please?,
1. Sheila began shooting June.
2. Neville ended the telephone conversation To Jeremy the second he could hear gunfire.
3. Neville rushed upstairs and was shot as he was coming up the stairs.
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So I promised Adam I would write up a scenario on Sheila being the killer,
What are people's views that maybe, Sheila injured Neville with gun in the kitchen first but no shots were fired at that time, he then, made the pbonevall to Jeremy and said "Sheilas got the gun and gone mad" or words to that effect , Instead of phoning 999 because shots had not been fired at that time and he felt that he and or Jeremy together could regain control of the situation without alerting the police.
Please don't be rude to me I would like to discuss people's views on why or why not this could of happened.
I thought it was Susan that promised a scenario this weekend. However thanks & I admire you're tenancity in supporting Bamber even after reading Wilkes's book.
If things had got physical in the kitchen it would have continued until resolved. Rather than abruptly stopping to allow Nevill to call Bamber & Sheila to go upstairs with a loaded rifle, which Nevill would not allow.
A fully fit Nevill would have easily over powered Sheila if there was a pre rifle shot confrontation.
As you have not mentioned Nevill calling the police, I assume you also believe he did not call them.
As Nevill only said 11 words to Bamber, do you believe he heard upstairs gun shots at the same time Bamber answered. Or do you agree with Lookout that Sheila had already started firing but Nevill thought they were warning shots into the ceiling.
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1. Sheila began shooting June.
2. Neville ended the telephone conversation To Jeremy the second he could hear gunfire.
3. Neville rushed upstairs and was shot as he was coming up the stairs.
That's exactly what I've been thinking David!!
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I thought it was Susan that promised a scenario this weekend. However thanks & I admire you're tenancity in supporting Bamber even after reading Wilkes's book.
If things had got physical in the kitchen it would have continued until resolved. Rather than abruptly stopping to allow Nevill to call Bamber & Sheila to go upstairs with a loaded rifle.
A fully fit Nevill would have easily over powered Sheila if there was a pre rifle shot confrontation.
As you have not mentioned Nevill calling the police, I assume you also believe he did not call them.
As Nevill only said 11 words to Bamber, do you believe he heard upstairs gun shots at the same time Bamber answ
ered. Or do you agree with Lookout that Sheila had already started firing but Nevill thought they were warning shots into the ceiling.
I don't believe Neville thought she would fire the gun, I believe this began in the kitchen and the gun hadn't come into play yet And or shots hadn't been fired at that point, I don't believe he heard gunshots as Jeremy would of heard them to
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That's exactly what I've been thinking David!!
How come Nevill allowed Sheila to get passed him with the gun?
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You've answered your own question--------because she had the gun,Neville was defenceless.
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Why would Nevill think Sheila would not use the rifle after she had injured him with it & then gone upstairs with it ?
I.also agree Nevill would not hear upstairs shots. So why only say 11 words to Bamber after waiting several minutes for him to answer, if no shots had been fired ?
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How come Nevill allowed Sheila to get passed him with the gun?
Maybe Sheila fled when Neville was on the phone hence why he hung up
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Why would Nevill think Sheila would not use the rifle after she had injured him with it & then gone upstairs with it ?
I.also agree Nevill would not hear upstairs shots. So why only say 11 words to Bamber after waiting several minutes for him to answer.
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I don't believe it took minutes to answer at all
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I don't believe it took minutes to answer at all
Bamber was upstairs sleeping 'like a log'. He had turned his answering machine off for some reason.
It would take several minutes for Bamber to -
Wake.
Realise the phone is ringing.
Attempt to ignore it.
Decide to answer it.
Go downstairs and answer it.
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I don't believe it took minutes to answer at all
If he'd been in a deep sleep, it would have taken several seconds to get himself together. The phone was downstairs. I'm not 100% certain that there wasn't a cut off back then, after a number of rings, but there wasn't an operator to "try again". IF the call happened, Nevill took a HUGE chance in it being answered.
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You've answered your own question--------because she had the gun,Neville was defenceless.
Unless she was threatening to use it on him -in which case, of what possible use would Jeremy have been?- he could, at least have attempted to wrest it from her.
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If he'd been in a deep sleep, it would have taken several seconds to get himself together. The phone was downstairs. I'm not 100% certain that there wasn't a cut off back then, after a number of rings, but there wasn't an operator to "try again". IF the call happened, Nevill took a HUGE chance in it being answered.
He said himself he was sleeping 'like a log' upstairs.
So no guarantee the phone would wake him. It's doubtful he would hear it even if awake if his bedroom door was shut.
However the process from first ring to answer is likely to be several minutes.
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So I promised Adam I would write up a scenario on Sheila being the killer,
What are people's views that maybe, Sheila injured Neville with gun in the kitchen first but no shots were fired at that time, he then, made the pbonevall to Jeremy and said "Sheilas got the gun and gone mad" or words to that effect , Instead of phoning 999 because shots had not been fired at that time and he felt that he and or Jeremy together could regain control of the situation without alerting the police.
Please don't be rude to me I would like to discuss people's views on why or why not this could of happened.
The trouble with this Sheila scenario, like the others is it relies on so many unlikely occurrences happening at the same time.
A fight & an injury to a fully fit Nevill before any shots had been fired.
Sheila being injury free in this fight.
The fight abruptly finishing without a conclusion
Sheila still having the rifle after the fight & being allowed to go upstairs with it.
Nevill calling Bamber at 3.00am although June was available.
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So what happened first?,
Dont forget he had fractures to the skull that wasn't associated with the gunshot wounds, rather difficult to chase upstairs with a fractured skull. If he has ceased struggling he must have been downstairs and didn't move again?
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Dont forget he had fractures to the skull that wasn't associated with the gunshot wounds, rather difficult to chase upstairs with a fractured skull. If he has ceased struggling he must have been downstairs and didn't move again?
People can still move with a fractured skull though, perhaps that's why he didn't fight back and disarm her?, she had hit him first hence the distressed call and reason he couldn't disarm her? Confusion/concussion/adrenaline? I really think IF the call was placed he obviously couldn't of been severely injured at that time, or saw no direct threat to life? Sheila was known to go off on a tangent perhaps this time she just couldn't be calmed and pulled back
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People can still move with a fractured skull though, perhaps that's why he didn't fight back and disarm her?, she had hit him first hence the distressed call and reason he couldn't disarm her? Confusion/concussion/adrenaline? I really think IF the call was placed he obviously couldn't of been severely injured at that time, or saw no direct threat to life? Sheila was known to go off on a tangent perhaps this time she just couldn't be calmed and pulled back
Except that, as we know, Sheila was over sedated. Her medication was a sedative. Sheila only went "off on a tangent" when she wasn't medicated. Also to bear in mind is that Nevill's skull was probably in a bit of a mess. It's doubtful that his skull was fractured without the skin being broken. Skulls, because the blood vessels are close to the surface, bleed readily and copiously. A blood trail would undoubtedly have followed him, if not, blinded him
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People can still move with a fractured skull though, perhaps that's why he didn't fight back and disarm her?, she had hit him first hence the distressed call and reason he couldn't disarm her? Confusion/concussion/adrenaline? I really think IF the call was placed he obviously couldn't of been severely injured at that time, or saw no direct threat to life? Sheila was known to go off on a tangent perhaps this time she just couldn't be calmed and pulled back
So there was a tussle with a fully fit Nevill. Nevill gets a fractured skull from rifle blows & Sheila is not hurt.
Nevill rings Bamber & lets Sheila go upstairs with the rifle.
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Lucy if you'd read of Sheila's very unhappy beginnings in her short life, I'm sure you'd understand why her ending had ended the way that it did. She was a totally abandoned child,more so than Jeremy had been,then to have her life dictated to and controlled had been more than she could bear,even as an adult with a family of her own.
There's an old saying about " the worm turning ",and it did for sure.
A lot of people in this predicament can turn their lives around with love,help and support,but Sheila was getting none of these vital links,hence her deep depression had deteriorated until it became too late for any intervention so a medical " cosh " had been given to which she'd fought against.
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He said himself he was sleeping 'like a log' upstairs.
So no guarantee the phone would wake him. It's doubtful he would hear it even if awake if his bedroom door was shut.
However the process from first ring to answer is likely to be several minutes.
Why wouldn't he hear it adam it was in the middle of the night and the house would have been silent. It was only a small cottage and deep sleep or not it would have eventually woke him. It wouldn't have taken him long at all to answer it
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Why wouldn't he hear it adam it was in the middle of the night and the house would have been silent. It was only a small cottage and deep sleep or not it would have eventually woke him. It wouldn't have taken him long at all to answer it
I don't believe it would of taken minutes maybe 90 seconds at most, most people know that a call at that time mean something serious is happening and is urgent.
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Unless she was threatening to use it on him -in which case, of what possible use would Jeremy have been?- he could, at least have attempted to wrest it from her.
That's what I'm leaning towards she was threatening him but he had no inclination she would possibly use it.
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Why wouldn't he hear it adam it was in the middle of the night and the house would have been silent. It was only a small cottage and deep sleep or not it would have eventually woke him. It wouldn't have taken him long at all to answer it
'Eventually' I agree with. Very surprised Nevill waited so long just to say 11 words.
'Never' is also an appropriate word. Espescially if Bamber's 'sleeping like a log' upstairs & his bedroom door was shut.
Anyway once it eventually fully woke Bamber, he had to realise the phone was ringing, try to ignore it & go back to sleep. 'Eventually' decide to answer it. Get up & go downstairs.
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So there was a tussle with a fully fit Nevill. Nevill gets a fractured skull from rifle blows & Sheila is not hurt.
Nevill rings Bamber & lets Sheila go upstairs with the rifle.
Not necessarily, we don't know at what point the fractured skull occurred.
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Lucy if you'd read of Sheila's very unhappy beginnings in her short life, I'm sure you'd understand why her ending had ended the way that it did. She was a totally abandoned child,more so than Jeremy had been,then to have her life dictated to and controlled had been more than she could bear,even as an adult with a family of her own.
There's an old saying about " the worm turning ",and it did for sure.
A lot of people in this predicament can turn their lives around with love,help and support,but Sheila was getting none of these vital links,hence her deep depression had deteriorated until it became too late for any intervention so a medical " cosh " had been given to which she'd fought against.
I have colin book on the way thanks to a very kind member, so I'm hoping to find out more about Sheila and the family dynamics, but I totally hear what your saying and am inclined to agree.
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That's what I'm leaning towards she was threatening him but he had no inclination she would possibly use it.
Lucy, everything about her behaviours during that last fortnight, corroborated by nearly everyone -friends, ex husband, mother, shop keeper et al- who saw her then, suggests depression so deep that she'd never have raised the energy to have killed.
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Not necessarily, we don't know at what point the fractured skull occurred.
Part of the stock was broken on the rifle which was found downstairs, I would say this was probably when he was hit over the head Lucy?
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I don't believe it would of taken minutes maybe 90 seconds at most, most people know that a call at that time mean something serious is happening and is urgent.
agreed. My son has rung me at 3 in the morning before and I'm literally awake in seconds panicking.
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Part of the stock was broken on the rifle which was found downstairs, I would say this was probably when he was hit over the head Lucy?
Maybe, or maybe it struck something else? Was there any photos of his head sounds? To break a rifle stock like that I imagine his head would literally of cracked like an egg and caved in?
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That's what I'm leaning towards she was threatening him but he had no inclination she would possibly use it.
I rather think that Neville had possibly resigned himself to the fact what Sheila's intentions had been. He had been quite despondent for some reason prior to the murders and hadn't " been himself " of late.
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agreed. My son has rung me at 3 in the morning before and I'm literally awake in seconds panicking.
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If my phone goes at 3 in the morning I would be straight up panicing,
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If my phone goes at 3 in the morning I would be straight up panicing,
Yes me to Lucy
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agreed. My son has rung me at 3 in the morning before and I'm literally awake in seconds panicking.
I, too, have had calls between 1 and 3 in the morning. I've known, instinctively, that something was wrong and acted accordingly. Which is one reason why I don't believe the phone call happened. If Nevill HAD called Jeremy, he'd have been panicked. Indeed, Jeremy, eventually said he had. But Jeremy failed to respond like someone reacting to a "panicked" phone call.
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Julie hadn't. She went back to bed again.! And she was supposed to have known what was happening ?
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If my phone goes at 3 in the morning I would be straight up panicing,
But then what would your action be if, you Father asks you to come over because yours sisters going crazy/berserk with a gun?
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Not necessarily, we don't know at what point the fractured skull occurred.
You said in reply 35 Nevill called Bamber after Sheila fractured his skull.
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I have colin book on the way thanks to a very kind member, so I'm hoping to find out more about Sheila and the family dynamics, but I totally hear what your saying and am inclined to agree.
I've read it once a couple of years ago but I'm just refreshing my memory about someone who really knew her and the family,her husband. It's an eye-opener really which I'm sure you'll appreciate.
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If my phone goes at 3 in the morning I would be straight up panicing,
Once it wakes you from 'sleeping like a log' upstairs behind a closed door.
I doubt that Bamber would leap out of bed. The only pro active thing he ever did was rob the family caravan site so he could spend the money.
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I have colin book on the way thanks to a very kind member, so I'm hoping to find out more about Sheila and the family dynamics, but I totally hear what your saying and am inclined to agree.
Lucy, I felt highly emotional when I read it. It must have been a time when I thought Jeremy was guilty because I wrote to Colin. You need to hold the thought that Colin was probably writing it as a cathartic exercise, but there's no doubting that he adored the boys.
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But then what would your action be if, you Father asks you to come over because yours sisters going crazy/berserk with a gun?
I would be panicking!! The only thing that bothers me is Neville didn't say call the police, perhaps he thought between him and Jeremy things could be bought back under control? He knew Jeremy could be there reasonably quickly BUT why did Jeremy not go to the farm ahead of the police?
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I've read it once a couple of years ago but I'm just refreshing my memory about someone who really knew her and the family,her husband. It's an eye-opener really which I'm sure you'll appreciate.
Can you message me lookout when you know x
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Maybe, or maybe it struck something else? Was there any photos of his head sounds? To break a rifle stock like that I imagine his head would literally of cracked like an egg and caved in?
It was severe fracture to the skull possibly causing bruising to the eyes as well?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44907
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Lucy, I felt highly emotional when I read it. It must have been a time when I thought Jeremy was guilty because I wrote to Colin. You need to hold the thought that Colin was probably writing it as a cathartic exercise, but there's no doubting that he adored the boys.
It's to horrendous to comprehend isn't it Jane x
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I would be panicking!! The only thing that bothers me is Neville didn't say call the police, perhaps he thought between him and Jeremy things could be bought back under control? He knew Jeremy could be there reasonably quickly BUT why did Jeremy not go to the farm ahead of the police?
There are unfortunately 40 reasons why Nevill would not call Bamber. Already posted.
Even the judge called Nevill's call 'mysterious'. Which according to the Oxford dictionary means 'difficult or impossible to understand or explain'. As you know, the source is Wilkes's book.
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It's to horrendous to comprehend isn't it Jane x
Yes Lucy, and much as it may help US to say this or that should never have happened, ie their marriage, it did, and Colin had to deal with the consequences. It's a wonderful of how falling in love doesn't necessarily make everything right.
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Dont forget he had fractures to the skull that wasn't associated with the gunshot wounds, rather difficult to chase upstairs with a fractured skull. If he has ceased struggling he must have been downstairs and didn't move again?
Almost if not all the fractures were a result of the gunshots. This is what is known as "Intracranial Pressure Waves and Secondary Fractures of the Skull"
The production of secondary fractures of the skull due to intracranial pressure waves generated
by a bullet penetrating into the cranial cavity.
Secondary fractures are very common in contact wounds of the head. This is due to the
gas produced by discharge entering the cranial cavity, expanding, and contributing to
the stress placed on the bony chamber by the temporary cavity. The more gas produced, the
more that enters the skull and the more likely that the fractures will be produced.
An extreme example of this is provided by contact wounds from a centerfire rifle or shotgun.
These firearms cause explosive wounds of the head, with large fragments of bone and brain
typically being ejected from the head.
In distant wounds, gas plays no part in the production of fractures. These fractures
are produced by the pressure built up in the skull as a result of temporary cavity formation.
The size of this cavity is proportional to the amount of kinetic energy lost by the
bullet in its passage through the head. The greater the amount of kinetic energy lost, the
larger the cavity; the larger the cavity, the greater the pressure produced on the walls
of the cranial chamber and the more likely a fracture is to occur. Thus, secondary skull
fractures are rare with wounds inflicted by a low-energy .22 Short cartridge, but are
the rule with wounds from a centerfire rifle. With the .22 Short cartridge, fractures are
usually limited to the orbital plates. Although secondary skull fractures are uncommon
with .22 Short ammunition (even in contact wounds), .22 Long Rifle cartridges usually
produce secondary fractures in contact wounds and not uncommonly in distant wounds.
The fact that the fractures in a skull are due to temporary cavity formation was demonstrated
by a series of experiments with skulls.28 When the skulls were empty, the bullets
drilled neat entrances and exits without any fractures. When the skulls were filled with
gelatin to simulate the brain, massive secondary skull fractures were produced.
There are however lacerations on Nevills face and head. Almost certainly caused by the rifle stock.
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I would be panicking!! The only thing that bothers me is Neville didn't say call the police, perhaps he thought between him and Jeremy things could be bought back under control? He knew Jeremy could be there reasonably quickly BUT why did Jeremy not go to the farm ahead of the police?
Well Nevill couldn't say much in 11 words.
Bamber did eventually call the 5th furthest away police station. After calling Julie. Then told the police Nevill liked to keep things private ? !
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Almost if not all the fractures were a result of the gunshots. This is what is known as "Intracranial Pressure Waves and Secondary Fractures of the Skull"
The production of secondary fractures of the skull due to intracranial pressure waves generated
by a bullet penetrating into the cranial cavity.
Secondary fractures are very common in contact wounds of the head. This is due to the
gas produced by discharge entering the cranial cavity, expanding, and contributing to
the stress placed on the bony chamber by the temporary cavity. The more gas produced, the
more that enters the skull and the more likely that the fractures will be produced.
An extreme example of this is provided by contact wounds from a centerfire rifle or shotgun.
These firearms cause explosive wounds of the head, with large fragments of bone and brain
typically being ejected from the head.
In distant wounds, gas plays no part in the production of fractures. These fractures
are produced by the pressure built up in the skull as a result of temporary cavity formation.
The size of this cavity is proportional to the amount of kinetic energy lost by the
bullet in its passage through the head. The greater the amount of kinetic energy lost, the
larger the cavity; the larger the cavity, the greater the pressure produced on the walls
of the cranial chamber and the more likely a fracture is to occur. Thus, secondary skull
fractures are rare with wounds inflicted by a low-energy .22 Short cartridge, but are
the rule with wounds from a centerfire rifle. With the .22 Short cartridge, fractures are
usually limited to the orbital plates. Although secondary skull fractures are uncommon
with .22 Short ammunition (even in contact wounds), .22 Long Rifle cartridges usually
produce secondary fractures in contact wounds and not uncommonly in distant wounds.
The fact that the fractures in a skull are due to temporary cavity formation was demonstrated
by a series of experiments with skulls.28 When the skulls were empty, the bullets
drilled neat entrances and exits without any fractures. When the skulls were filled with
gelatin to simulate the brain, massive secondary skull fractures were produced.
There are however lacerations on Nevills face and head. Almost certainly caused by the rifle stock.
Lacerations I can understand, but the force needed to break a rifle stock on someone's head would have to be tremendous, why was it in the hallway,? Was it being swung wildly and hit the floor? If you were hit that hard as to break the stock I'm sure you'd be rendered temporarily unconscious at least?. Maybe that's how Sheila got upstairs without the gun being taken?
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I am dealing with a user that is posting contradictory and dishonest claims. Even worse, that user knows what they are posting now are complete falsehoods. What else can I do but laugh? :))
It's no secret Caroline & Jane J changed stance after I joined the forum. Just as you changed stance after you're hush hush 'forensic evidence breakthrough'.
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Lacerations I can understand, but the force needed to break a rifle stock on someone's head would have to be tremendous, why was it in the hallway,? Was it being swung wildly and hit the floor? If you were hit that hard as to break the stock I'm sure you'd be rendered temporarily unconscious at least?. Maybe that's how Sheila got upstairs without the gun being taken?
What was in the hallway?
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Lacerations I can understand, but the force needed to break a rifle stock on someone's head would have to be tremendous, why was it in the hallway,? Was it being swung wildly and hit the floor? If you were hit that hard as to break the stock I'm sure you'd be rendered temporarily unconscious at least?. Maybe that's how Sheila got upstairs without the gun being taken?
Have you seen the report of Nevill's injuries ? Horrible.
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What was in the hallway?
Sorry Hartley where was it I thought it was the hallway for some reason?
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Have you seen the report of Nevill's injuries ? Horrible.
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I haven't come across post mortem reports could you link me If possible please Adam?
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Sorry Hartley where was it I thought it was the hallway for some reason?
Are you referring to the piece of broken stock?
If so, I thought it was found near the Aga. It may be me who is mistaken though. :-\
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I haven't come across post mortem reports could you link me If possible please Adam?
See here Lucy:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,988.msg29919.html#msg29919
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,988.msg29919.html#msg29919)
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41. Nevill Bamber, who was wearing his pyjamas had been shot eight times. There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation. There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk. There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.
42. The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.
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Are you referring to the piece of broken stock?
If so, I thought it was found near the Aga. It may be me who is mistaken though. :-\
Yes I can't remember either can anyone she'd some light please?,
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See here Lucy:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,988.msg29919.html#msg29919
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,988.msg29919.html#msg29919)
Thanks Adam will look now, also where was the piece of broken rifle stock found please,?
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Thanks Adam will look now, also where was the piece of broken rifle stock found please,?
I think it was found in the kitchen Lucy
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Thanks Adam will look now, also where was the piece of broken rifle stock found please,?
If you call me Adam again then you and I are going to fall out big time. >:( ;D ;D ;D
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If you call me Adam again then you and I are going to fall out big time. >:( ;D ;D ;D
Haha sorry lol ;D
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Does anyone know why the entry wounds on June and Neville differ so much in size?
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Obviously Nevill was very much alive and kicking after his first 4 shots.
A huge life or death fight took place where neither held back. Bamber was fully padded up & in shoes. Carrying a rifle he could as a fighting weapon.
Nevill's injuries show Bamber couldn't and didn't hold back. Bamber did not know how fit Nevill still was after 4 shots.
There is no possibility a bare footed and unprotected Sheila would have survived such a fight.
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If you call me Adam again then you and I are going to fall out big time. >:( ;D ;D ;D
Hahaha Hartley best post all day :))
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Does anyone know why the entry wounds on June and Neville differ so much in size?
Could it be how close the rifle was Lucy?
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Obviously Nevill was very much alive and kicking after his first 4 shots.
A huge life or death fight took place where neither held back. Bamber was fully padded up & in shoes. Carrying a rifle he could as a fighting weapon.
Nevill's injuries show Bamber couldn't and didn't hold back. Bamber did not know how fit Nevill still was after 4 shots.
There is no possibility a bare footed and unprotected Sheila would have survived such a fight.
There is if he wouldn't of hurt her back as it was his daughter OR he was caught unaware and couldn't find back OR Jeremy did it I wish I bloody knew it's infuriating
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Hahaha Hartley best post all day :))
:)
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Could it be how close the rifle was Lucy?
I'm not sure? A bullet would always be the same size? But I'm not a ballistics expert so there is probably a simple explanation i just presumed all wounds would of been the same size 🤔
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I'm not sure? A bullet would always be the same size? But I'm not a ballistics expert so there is probably a simple explanation i just presumed all wounds would of been the same size 🤔
Might it not have to do with skin texture and density? As I know nothing about bullet wounds, it's really just a shot in the dark..................... SORREEEEEE!!!!! :-[
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Might it not have to do with skin texture and density? As I know nothing about bullet wounds, it's really just a shot in the dark..................... SORREEEEEE!!!!! :-[
Lol, I just dont know Jane! Those reports make for some.vile resding,!!
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I have removed some posts from this site....... annoying, disruptive and goading ...
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Lol, I just dont know Jane! Those reports make for some.vile resding,!!
I know, Lucy. They don't make for good bedtime reading, do they?
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I have removed some posts from this site....... annoying, disruptive and goading ...
Aww. EVER SO ta, Maggie :)xx
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I know, Lucy. They don't make for good bedtime reading, do they?
Those poor little boys, horrific x
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Those poor little boys, horrific x
I think, bad as they are, we tend to accept the adults' injuries whilst avoiding thoughts of what happened to the children. Sometimes it becomes necessary to focus on them, though.
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There is if he wouldn't of hurt her back as it was his daughter OR he was caught unaware and couldn't find back OR Jeremy did it I wish I bloody knew it's infuriating
Nevill was caught unaware with the first 4 shots. He ran downstairs bare footed in his pyjamas. By the time he got to the kitchen he knew what was coming.
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Nevill was caught unaware with the first 4 shots. He ran downstairs bare footed in his pyjamas. By the time he got to the kitchen he knew what was coming.
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And was beaten pre or post mortem?
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And was beaten pre or post mortem?
I don't understand.
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Aww. EVER SO ta, Maggie :)xx
Lucy, probably a silly question, but you were talking about the various books on another thread, have you read the Dickinson Report before? There's a link in the archives of its of interest?
Also in the photograph library there is an image showing the broken stock found near the Aga.
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Lucy, probably a silly question, but you were talking about the various books on another thread, have you read the Dickinson Report before? There's a link in the archives of its of interest?
Also in the photograph library there is an image showing the broken stock found near the Aga.
Ya quoted the wrong lady, H ;D
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I have removed some posts from this site....... annoying, disruptive and goading ...
Hahaha Maggie that will be all the posts from the afternoon :)) :)) :))
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Ya quoted the wrong lady, H ;D
Bloody hell, it's catching!!! :-[ ;D
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Lucy, probably a silly question, but you were talking about the various books on another thread, have you read the Dickinson Report before? There's a link in the archives of its of interest?
Also in the photograph library there is an image showing the broken stock found near the Aga.
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Not sure if i have Hartley it does ring a bell though I will check,
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Not sure if i have Hartley it does ring a bell though I will check,
I'm not suggesting it's a definitive version of events, but it's worth a read.
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I'm not suggesting it's a definitive version of events, but it's worth a read.
Just looked Hartley and can't see it in there I'm probably being blind, do you have a link please?
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Just looked Hartley and can't see it in there I'm probably being blind, do you have a link please?
See here:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1168.0.html
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1168.0.html)
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See here:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1168.0.html
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1168.0.html)
Your a star Hartley thankyou, will have a read and let you know my thoughts, just seen all those interviews as well, will go through them, anything in there you'd say is a must read?
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Your a star Hartley thankyou, will have a read and let you know my thoughts, just seen all those interviews as well, will go through them, anything in there you'd say is a must read?
I don't know really, I guess they are relevant to certain aspects of the case. To be honest it's probably best just to delve in rather than let me or anyone else lead you.
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I don't know really, I guess they are relevant to certain aspects of the case. To be honest it's probably best just to delve in rather than let me or anyone else lead you.
Hubby going to be so happy now I have all these to read haha
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So I promised Adam I would write up a scenario on Sheila being the killer,
What are people's views that maybe, Sheila injured Neville with gun in the kitchen first but no shots were fired at that time, he then, made the pbonevall to Jeremy and said "Sheilas got the gun and gone mad" or words to that effect , Instead of phoning 999 because shots had not been fired at that time and he felt that he and or Jeremy together could regain control of the situation without alerting the police.
Please don't be rude to me I would like to discuss people's views on why or why not this could of happened.
She shot Nevill in the kitchen but he managed not to bleed anywhere until later?
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Hubby going to be so happy now I have all these to read haha
Haha, please give him my apologies. ;D
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She shot Nevill in the kitchen but he managed not to bleed anywhere until later?
That's not what I said is it
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That's not what I said is it
No, but I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding.
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That's not what I said is it
No you didn't say it but if Nevill was shot in the kitchen before calling Jeremy, he then had to get upstairs after the call without bleeding on the stairs or most of the kitchen floor. I'm not trying to be funny, simply pointing out a flaw in your scenario. I can understand how after being shot upstairs first, he may not have bleed to much as he ran downstairs, but not going upstairs, being shot again and then back down and leaving no trail.
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Hahaha Maggie that will be all the posts from the afternoon :)) :)) :))
Can't argue with that Susan. :)
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Can't argue with that Susan. :)
You do a fine job Maggie. In between the disruptions there is some good chit chat about the case.
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No you didn't say it but if Nevill was shot in the kitchen before calling Jeremy, he then had to get upstairs after the call without bleeding on the stairs or most of the kitchen floor. I'm not trying to be funny, simply pointing out a flaw in your scenario. I can understand how after being shot upstairs first, he may not have bleed to much as he ran downstairs, but not going upstairs, being shot again and then back down and leaving no trail.
I don't think that is what's being suggested. ???
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I don't think that is what's being suggested. ???
Injured Nevill with the gun, but no shots were fired.
I might be wrong but I think it's being suggested that he was hit with the gun, as in being hit with a cricket bat. :-\
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Injured Nevill with the gun, but no shots were fired.
I might be wrong but I think it's being suggested that he was hit with the gun, as in being hit with a cricket bat. :-\
Yes so what I was insinuating Caroline was Neville sustaining "some" of his injuries NOT the gunshots first, him and Sheila struggled in the kitchen, he MAY of then rang Jeremy to say Sheila has gone crazy with the gun not thinking she would actually use it, while he's on the phone she then runs upstairs with it and begins firing at June, hence him receiving his first 4 shots in the entry to the room, he then flees downstairs where Sheila finishes him off,
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Yes so what I was insinuating Caroline was Neville sustaining "some" of his injuries NOT the gunshots first, him and Sheila struggled in the kitchen, he MAY of then rang Jeremy to say Sheila has gone crazy with the gun not thinking she would actually use it, while he's on the phone she then runs upstairs with it and begins firing at June, hence him receiving his first 4 shots in the entry to the room, he then flees downstairs where Sheila finishes him off,
You do need to look at Sheila's behaviours in the fortnight prior to her death. Of course, I can't say categorically, but it seems to me that she MAY have been going down hill from the time that Christine, her biological mother, returned to her own life. I certainly seems, from what her friends -and Colin- have said of her, that she was listless, disinterested and was no longer caring for herself. This COULD have been about her meds, despite being halved, over sedating her. It could equally well have been because she was sliding into depression. Over sedation would preclude an episode and depression would have robbed her of energy, physical and mental, both meaning she couldn't have committed suicide, let alone 4 murders first.
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You do need to look at Sheila's behaviours in the fortnight prior to her death. Of course, I can't say categorically, but it seems to me that she MAY have been going down hill from the time that Christine, her biological mother, returned to her own life. I certainly seems, from what her friends -and Colin- have said of her, that she was listless, disinterested and was no longer caring for herself. This COULD have been about her meds, despite being halved, over sedating her. It could equally well have been because she was sliding into depression. Over sedation would preclude an episode and depression would have robbed her of energy, physical and mental, both meaning she couldn't have committed suicide, let alone 4 murders first.
Morning Jane, I've just read one of Ann eatons witness statements, and one thing strikes me as odd, why was there a shotgun in the bedroom? She admits Neville would never of left it there as he was very cautious and there was no need for it to be upstairs, it had been made in half so someone had done that and then left it by the window, could Sheila have had this gun first and gone upstairs with it? Do we know if any DNA or fingerprints were taken to see who had handled the weapon? Any why on earth was it in the bedroom?
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Morning Jane, I've just read one of Ann eatons witness statements, and one thing strikes me as odd, why was there a shotgun in the bedroom? She admits Neville would never of left it there as he was very cautious and there was no need for it to be upstairs, it had been made in half so someone had done that and then left it by the window, could Sheila have had this gun first and gone upstairs with it? Do we know if any DNA or fingerprints were taken to see who had handled the weapon? Any why on earth was it in the bedroom?
It has been suggested that Nevill always kept a gun under the bed. Obviously, I can't say if this is the case. WHO would have known? As for Ann saying what Nevill would/wouldn't have done? Well, clearly, they weren't close. Ann had no idea that Sheila was in hospital and the family had no idea of Sheila's illness. Visits seem to have been reserved for Boxing day and/or Easter. Remember, Ann was only June's niece. It's possible that Pam -her mother- may have seen more of June. I think much of what Ann has said of June and Nevill may simply have been her concept of how they were gleaned from the version of them she heard from her father, RWB.
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It's good that two recent new scenarios of how Sheila did it have been submitted. Which vary greatly from each other.
Buddy's scenario last week had Nevill ringing Bamber after receiving four rifle shots.
Lucy's yesterday has a fully fit Nevill amazingly losing a struggle with Sheila & sustaining injuries, while Sheila received none. The struggle abruptly ending & Nevill then ringing Bamber rather than waking June. Sheila going upstairs with the rifle unchallenged while everyone remained asleep.
Unfortunately both scenarios are not credible and have had to be dismissed. Hopefully Susan's due scenario will be the one.
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It has been suggested that Nevill always kept a gun under the bed. Obviously, I can't say if this is the case. WHO would have known? As for Ann saying what Nevill would/wouldn't have done? Well, clearly, they weren't close. Ann had no idea that Sheila was in hospital and the family had no idea of Sheila's illness. Visits seem to have been reserved for Boxing day and/or Easter. Remember, Ann was only June's niece. It's possible that Pam -her mother- may have seen more of June. I think much of what Ann has said of June and Nevill may simply have been her concept of how they were gleaned from the version of them she heard from her father, RWB.
I just can't see anyone keeping a shotgun under the bed with 2 little boys running around, and why was it out? Someone had handled it that night?,
Yes Ann appears to of not seen them much at all she said she saw Sheila that week and she appeared normal? I wonder why Ann felt the need to get so deeply involved? I'm wondering if it was more about securing assets? X
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I just can't see anyone keeping a shotgun under the bed with 2 little boys running around, and why was it out? Someone had handled it that night?,
Yes Ann appears to of not seen them much at all she said she saw Sheila that week and she appeared normal? I wonder why Ann felt the need to get so deeply involved? I'm wondering if it was more about securing assets? X
Lucy, you don't say WHO'S bedroom the gun was said to be in. If it was the master bedroom, I'd argue that Nevill had a perfect right to keep his gun there if that was his habit. I can't see the boys being allowed free rein of it. Isn't it common practice for a gun to be broken when not in use?
Ann and Sheila had never been close. I suspect the hard working Ann saw Sheila as being a spoilt, light weight and frivolous airhead.................I also suspect she was jealous. I can't say what would have been Ann's version of Sheila appearing normal. I'm inclined to think Ann liked the feeling of importance that she got from being involved -it MAY have been new to her- as I don't see RWB as a man who'd throw out many compliments.
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Lucy, you don't say WHO'S bedroom the gun was said to be in. If it was the master bedroom, I'd argue that Nevill had a perfect right to keep his gun there if that was his habit. I can't see the boys being allowed free rein of it. Isn't it common practice for a gun to be broken when not in use?
Ann and Sheila had never been close. I suspect the hard working Ann saw Sheila as being a spoilt, light weight and frivolous airhead.................I also suspect she was jealous. I can't say what would have been Ann's version of Sheila appearing normal. I'm inclined to think Ann liked the feeling of importance that she got from being involved -it MAY have been new to her- as I don't see RWB as a man who'd throw out many compliments.
It wasn't the main bedroom i don't think, it was a room at the side? I'm not 100% sure though, I suspect jealousy as well that's quite apparent but she didn't seem to have had much to do with them prior to this, I don't understand how she can say things weren't in their normal place at the farm when she very rarely visited?
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You do a fine job Maggie. In between the disruptions there is some good chit chat about the case.
^-^ ^-^ ^-^
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It wasn't the main bedroom i don't think, it was a room at the side? I'm not 100% sure though, I suspect jealousy as well that's quite apparent but she didn't seem to have had much to do with them prior to this, I don't understand how she can say things weren't in their normal place at the farm when she very rarely visited?
To say that "things weren't in there normal place" is to suppose she knew what WAS "their normal place" but we know she wasn't there frequently enough to know. Perhaps she spoke from memory? However, it doesn't explain how she knew what was in the bedrooms and what may or not have been normally kept there.
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To say that "things weren't in there normal place" is to suppose she knew what WAS "their normal place" but we know she wasn't there frequently enough to know. Perhaps she spoke from memory? However, it doesn't explain how she knew what was in the bedrooms and what may or not have been normally kept there.
I know I find it really strange for her to make such a big thing about this gs on the windowsill being moved but she couldn't of known what was there,? Surely the housekeeper was more warranted to make those claims?
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I know I find it really strange for her to make such a big thing about this gs on the windowsill being moved but she couldn't of known what was there,? Surely the housekeeper was more warranted to make those claims?
Ann, presumably, was speaking about how the house was AFTER the event. Naturally, things would have been moved. Chances are, by the time the housekeeper saw it, things may have been moved again. The house must have been in chaos. I really don't think ANYTHING could have been said to be 'normal'.
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Ann, presumably, was speaking about how the house was AFTER the event. Naturally, things would have been moved. Chances are, by the time the housekeeper saw it, things may have been moved again. The house must have been in chaos. I really don't think ANYTHING could have been said to be 'normal'.
Just seems so strange, and this shotgun by the window is really bothering me, as it must of been moved that night.
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Just seems so strange, and this shotgun by the window is really bothering me, as it must of been moved that night.
Lucy, police probably moved the gun so there's not likely to be anything untoward/suspicious about it leaning against the window.
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Just seems so strange, and this shotgun by the window is really bothering me, as it must of been moved that night.
Which statement was it in, her 70 pager COLP statement or another one?
There was broken down parts of a shotgun in the upstairs office, I'm not sure I recall another one upstairs.
The shotgun under the bed claim seems to be a bit of a myth.
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Lucy, police probably moved the gun so there's not likely to be anything untoward/suspicious about it leaning against the window.
The police said it was there already,
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Which statement was it in, her 70 pager COLP statement or another one?
There was broken down parts of a shotgun in the upstairs office, I'm not sure I recall another one upstairs.
The shotgun under the bed claim seems to be a bit of a myth.
I will try and find it Hartley give me 10
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I will try and find it Hartley give me 10
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Obviously Nevill was very much alive and kicking after his first 4 shots.
A huge life or death fight took place where neither held back. Bamber was fully padded up & in shoes. Carrying a rifle he could as a fighting weapon.
Nevill's injuries show Bamber couldn't and didn't hold back. Bamber did not know how fit Nevill still was after 4 shots.
There is no possibility a bare footed and unprotected Sheila would have survived such a fight.
The thing with this Adam is Julie makes no mention of jb having any injuries at all, I know Shiela doesn't either so the same applies to both of them
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One of the raid team mentioned this I think. Maybe Rozga, I'll have a look.
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There are unfortunately 40 reasons why Nevill would not call Bamber. Already posted.
Even the judge called Nevill's call 'mysterious'. Which according to the Oxford dictionary means 'difficult or impossible to understand or explain'. As you know, the source is Wilkes's book.
[/quotthis isn't mysterious at all. He may not have realised it was going to get out of complete control and so thought would be able. To contain it with Jb help. It is very noteable that the bambers were very private people so in my opinion quite possible
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One of the raid team mentioned this I think. Maybe Rozga, I'll have a look.
Yeah, see top of page 4.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1620.0.html
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1620.0.html)
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One of the raid team mentioned this I think. Maybe Rozga, I'll have a look.
Can you see the attachment of the statement page? Or have I done it wrong?
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Can you see the attachment of the statement page? Or have I done it wrong?
I can see it. It just doesn't show up when quoted that's all.
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I can see it. It just doesn't show up when quoted that's all.
Ah okay i thought I'd done it wrong, what do you make of it?
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The thing with this Adam is Julie makes no mention of jb having any injuries at all, I know Shiela doesn't either so the same applies to both of them
Yeah but Sheila was not padded up, wearing shoes & a strong male.
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Ah okay i thought I'd done it wrong, what do you make of it?
That room is the upstairs office directly above the entrance where the raid team entered.
The shotgun doesn't seem connected to the events, maybe it was just up there being cleaned? :-\
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Yeah but Sheila was not padded up, wearing shoes & a strong male.
Where is he evidence that jb was padded up?
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That room is the upstairs office directly above the entrance where the raid team entered.
The shotgun doesn't seem connected to the events, maybe it was just up there being cleaned? :-\
Maybe as it says how clean it was, why did ae feel the need to say it wouldn't of been there though?
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Maybe as it says how clean it was, why did ae feel the need to say it wouldn't of been there though?
I don't know. Perhaps it just wasn't usual for it to be there?
Would AE even know what was or wasn't usual? :-\
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Maybe as it says how clean it was, why did ae feel the need to say it wouldn't of been there though?
Like many other aspects of this case, Lucy, there isn't a definitive answer. There are many 'could be's and may be's and perhaps's'. The bottom line here, almost certainly, is Ann didn't know where it would/wouldn't have been. She only knew where she believed it SHOULD have been, according to her.
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Where is he evidence that jb was padded up?
Do you think Bamber cycled to WHF in his pyjamas and bare footed ?
I forgot to add Bamber wasn't 'zonked out' on Haloperidol either.
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I don't know. Perhaps it just wasn't usual for it to be there?
Would AE even know what was or wasn't usual? :-\
No, that why readinf her statements it's infuriating to hear her rattling off about things she knows nothing about, seems like a smear campaign
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Do you think Bamber cycled to WHF in his pyjamas and bare footed ?
I forgot to add Bamber wasn't 'zonked out' on Haloperidol either.
No but it's here is a big difference in wearing normal clothing and being padded up as you put it. It's distorting a possible scenario. Imo there were no injuries on either of them so we just don't know by this which one was responsible.
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No, that why readinf her statements it's infuriating to hear her rattling off about things she knows nothing about, seems like a smear campaign
I'm not sure I perceive it in that way.
I think she's just lost a number of relatives in a horrific incident and she's trying to join the dots up of something that doesn't make sense to her.
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Also in my opinion it was completely possible for sc to have a violent episode whilst on this medication. Her mother he was in turmoil .
It's important for all her medical records are released so we can see what they all say.
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No but it's here is a big difference in wearing normal clothing and being padded up as you put it. It's distorting a possible scenario. Imo there were no injuries on either of them so we just don't know by this which one was responsible.
That's one way of looking at it.
Unfortunately a jury would ask how Sheila avoided any injuries or damage to her nightdress. In a feroucious fight with someone twice as big as her, 'zonked out' & barefooted.
They would not ask the same question for a prepared, equally strong & mentally alert Bamber.
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I'm not sure I perceive it in that way.
I think she's just lost a number of relatives in a horrific incident and she's trying to join the dots up of something that doesn't make sense to her.
Maybe but much was made of Jeremy going on holiday, and said he wasn't grieving when colin did the same thing and nobody minded
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Also in my opinion it was completely possible for sc to have a violent episode whilst on this medication. Her mother he was in turmoil .
It's important for all her medical records are released so we can see what they all say.
Yes it says she was prone to violent outbursts, I'd live to read them.
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No, that why readinf her statements it's infuriating to hear her rattling off about things she knows nothing about, seems like a smear campaign
I agree Lucy she really didn't know jb and sc very well at all and certainly had far too much to say about imatters she really didn't know anything about.
I have a bad g problem with her and her motives and I can't bare to read her statements as they infuriate me .
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Maybe but much was made of Jeremy going on holiday, and said he wasn't grieving when colin did the same thing and nobody minded
I think with JB, there is a bit of a snowball effect. In isolation, JB going off on holiday doesn't sound particularly troubling, but maybe when taking other actions/behaviour in to account it rightly or wrongly gives people cause for concern.
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I agree Lucy she really didn't know jb and sc very well at all and certainly had far too much to say about imatters she really didn't know anything about.
I have a bad g problem with her and her motives and I can't bare to read her statements as they infuriate me .
AE worked with Bamber & Nevill & knew the family. She was related to them & lived near by.
Everything on her WS is true. Otherwise Bamber & his team would dispute it at trial or since.
The relatives were already rich. The suggestion that they attempted a massively ambitious & sinister frame of an innocent and (apparent) grieving relative, of killing his family, has to be dismissed.
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Sorry about my spelling I'm sitting next to my hubby who is driving us to olney bucks and he keeps
Going round corners !
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I think with JB, there is a bit of a snowball effect. In isolation, JB going off on holiday doesn't sound particularly troubling, but maybe when taking other actions/behaviour in to account it rightly or wrongly gives people cause for concern.
Same could be said for her though grabbing everything she could from the farm, writing notes and pretending she's Miss Marpke searching for things to implicate Jeremy, which relative threatened him with legal action over 3 paintings in the farm and demanded they be relinquished to them?
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I agree Lucy she really didn't know jb and sc very well at all and certainly had far too much to say about imatters she really didn't know anything about.
I have a bad g problem with her and her motives and I can't bare to read her statements as they infuriate me .
I have a problem with it to, and the fact she was giving people tours of the house insisting they were shown what had happened in each room like some macabre circus
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Morning Jane, I've just read one of Ann eatons witness statements, and one thing strikes me as odd, why was there a shotgun in the bedroom? She admits Neville would never of left it there as he was very cautious and there was no need for it to be upstairs, it had been made in half so someone had done that and then left it by the window, could Sheila have had this gun first and gone upstairs with it? Do we know if any DNA or fingerprints were taken to see who had handled the weapon? Any why on earth was it in the bedroom?
Sheila's prints were on the shotgun Lucy.Just tuned in, so someone else may or may not have mentioned that.
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Same could be said for her though grabbing everything she could from the farm, writing notes and pretending she's Miss Marpke searching for things to implicate Jeremy, which relative threatened him with legal action over 3 paintings in the farm and demanded they be relinquished to them?
Grabbing everything she could :). You are getting over excited again.
The relatives did not think Sheila was capable of committing the massacre. So went to the police.
They looked for evidence after Stan Jones gave them the keys to WHF for a tidy up. Bamber was in Amsterdam buying drugs.
The relatives found the silencer. BW & Basil Cock were also in the building.
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Sheila's prints were on the shotgun Lucy.Just tuned in, so someone else may or may not have mentioned that.
Oh really!! Why would Sheila be handling the shotgun???
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I'm not sure I perceive it in that way.
I think she's just lost a number of relatives in a horrific incident and she's trying to join the dots up of something that doesn't make sense to her.
Imo we have to remember that although AE may not have been very close to her Uncle and Aunt or have known Sheila and Jeremy very well however they were always there in the background as part of her extended family. June was her Mother's sister so they were part of her history and security.
Innocents, including myself when I was, rightly argue that JB was bound to be traumatised and shocked by the murders if he was innocent because he had lost everybody and then tend to forget the absolute horror for Ann as a young woman also the rest of the family. Pamela, her mum must have been totally distraught so it's no wonder Ann was angry and determined to find the perpetrator. ...... in other words we need to remember she would have been traumatised as well and therefore may have behaved in ways considered over the top, difficult to understand etc. :-\
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I have a problem with it to, and the fact she was giving people tours of the house insisting they were shown what had happened in each room like some macabre circus
Tours of the house ?
Anyway you're scenario of how Sheila committed the massacre has been dismissed. Which is what the thread was originally about.
No one has supported you're new suggestion that a fully fit Nevill came off injured & second best to Sheila in a struggle. Then let Sheila go upstairs with a loaded rifle while he rang Bamber.
AE apparently giving tours of the house is academic.
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Tours of the house ?
Anyway you're scenario of how Sheila committed the massacre has been dismissed. Which is what the thread was originally about.
No one has supported you're new suggestion that a fully fit Nevill came off injured & second best to Sheila in a struggle. Then let Sheila go upstairs with a rifle while he rang Bamber.
AE apparently giving tours of the house is academic.
Okay then we will not comment Any more
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Grabbing everything she could :). You are getting over excited again.
The relatives did not think Sheila was capable of committing the massacre. So went to the police.
They looked for evidence after Stan Jones gave them the keys to WHF for a tidy up. Bamber was in Amsterdam buying drugs.
The relatives found the silencer. BW & Basil Cock were also in the building.
Well that's not how I see it and we are all entitled to our opinion.
If the was such a viscous fight then where were UBS injuries. Not even a scratch to the face.
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Okay then we will not comment Any more
You're suggesting Sheila committed the massacre & the relatives, lead by AE framed Bamber. This did not happen.
You can still support Bamber. On Mike's & Sherlock's views that it was RB or a hit man team. Or that Bamber is guilty but has been treated unfairly by the courts.
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Well that's not how I see it and we are all entitled to our opinion.
If the was such a viscous fight then where were UBS injuries. Not even a scratch to the face.
The judge said Nevill put up a 'tremendous fight for life'. The kitchen evidence supports this.
Why would Bamber come out of this uninjured while Sheila wouldn't ? I'll leave you to work it out.
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Tours of the house ?
Anyway you're scenario of how Sheila committed the massacre has been dismissed. Which is what the thread was originally about.
No one has supported you're new suggestion that a fully fit Nevill came off injured & second best to Sheila in a struggle. Then let Sheila go upstairs with a loaded rifle while he rang Bamber.
AE apparently giving tours of the house is academic.
Ummm who are you to dismiss anyone's theories or opinions. I for one completely agree with Lucy so not dismissed at all.
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You're suggesting Sheila committed the massacre & the relatives, lead by AE framed Bamber. This did not happen.
You can still support Bamber. On Mike's & Sherlock's views that it was RB or a hit man team. Or that Bamber is guilty but has been treated unfairly by the courts.
A mad insane woman would be perfectly capable of doing that. So it could of happened this
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Yes so what I was insinuating Caroline was Neville sustaining "some" of his injuries NOT the gunshots first, him and Sheila struggled in the kitchen, he MAY of then rang Jeremy to say Sheila has gone crazy with the gun not thinking she would actually use it, while he's on the phone she then runs upstairs with it and begins firing at June, hence him receiving his first 4 shots in the entry to the room, he then flees downstairs where Sheila finishes him off,
Oh OK, soz ;D. Most things are possible in scenario's I guess.
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Oh really!! Why would Sheila be handling the shotgun???
Your guess is as good as mine. I only repeat what I've read.
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Oh really!! Why would Sheila be handling the shotgun???
Sheila's prints weren't on the shotgun. Lookout has said this on numerous occasions but there is no official source - she read it on here but that doesn't make it a fact of the case.
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Sheila's prints weren't on the shotgun. Lookout has said this on numerous occasions but there is no official source - she read it on here but that doesn't make it a fact of the case.
Well one of the things included in the Stokenchurch items was a cartridge from a shotgun,so how is that accountable ? Especially as the shotgun had been found elsewhere instead of the gun cupboard.
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Well one of the things included in the Stokenchurch items was a cartridge from a shotgun,so how is that accountable ? Especially as the shotgun had been found elsewhere instead of the gun cupboard.
How does it follow from that, that Sheila's prints were on the shotgun?
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The judge said Nevill put up a 'tremendous fight for life'. The kitchen evidence supports this.
Why would Bamber come out of this uninjured while Sheila wouldn't ? I'll leave you to work it out.
The fight never happened. Neville was hit with the rifle while he was semi conscious if not already dead. The mess was then caused the firearm team entering the house.
Like the over sedated myth. The fight is another myth to try and preclude Sheila from being involved.
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Those poor little boys, horrific x
Yes Lucy it's almost impossible to imagine Mugford would offer to identify the bodies when she 'knew' for definate' her boyfriend the person she was sleeping with was definately responsible for there deaths
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Maybe but much was made of Jeremy going on holiday, and said he wasn't grieving when colin did the same thing and nobody minded
Lucy the relatives of the Bambers were not close, they couldn't even tell one twin from the other
Very strange considering how old the twins were
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Maybe but much was made of Jeremy going on holiday, and said he wasn't grieving when colin did the same thing and nobody minded
I think the majority of posters believe it was normal JB going on holiday even some of the guilty posters do too
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Oh really!! Why would Sheila be handling the shotgun???
As I understand it, Lucy, there was ONE finger print belonging to Sheila and ONE belonging to Jeremy? I believe there WERE others but they'd been smudged/wiped.
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Both Neville's and Sheila's prints were found on the shotgun,as well as an airgun which was found on the spiral staircase which just had Sheila's prints on it.
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As I understand it, Lucy, there was ONE finger print belonging to Sheila and ONE belonging to Jeremy? I believe there WERE others but they'd been smudged/wiped.
I think that was on the rifle Jane not the shotgun upstairs?
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Both Neville's and Sheila's prints were found on the shotgun,as well as an airgun which was found on the spiral staircase which just had Sheila's prints on it.
I just think it's a strange place to leave a gun being as Neville was very cautious, also I can't see him walking past the anshwutz on his way out to do the final load that night and leaving it accessible?
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Both Neville's and Sheila's prints were found on the shotgun,as well as an airgun which was found on the spiral staircase which just had Sheila's prints on it.
I believe I'm correct in saying that Caroline has just posted that Sheila's prints WEREN'T on the shotgun. It seems to me that you might be suggesting that Sheila handled several guns. I've only read about ONE of her fingerprints being on the murder weapon, but of course, it could be another myth.
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I think that was on the rifle Jane not the shotgun upstairs?
Without evidence, Lucy, I'm not prepared to believe Sheila's prints were on a shotgun.
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It's not a myth.
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I just think it's a strange place to leave a gun being as Neville was very cautious, also I can't see him walking past the anshwutz on his way out to do the final load that night and leaving it accessible?
And he probably didn't. The chances are the gun WASN'T where Jeremy said it was. If he wanted it to be believed that Sheila had done it, his story had to include a loaded gun being left where she could see it.
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I just think it's a strange place to leave a gun being as Neville was very cautious, also I can't see him walking past the anshwutz on his way out to do the final load that night and leaving it accessible?
The rifle in question had been left on the table,so presumably Neville had moved that,or had attempted to.
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It's not a myth.
Then proof will be available.
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I just think it's a strange place to leave a gun being as Neville was very cautious, also I can't see him walking past the anshwutz on his way out to do the final load that night and leaving it accessible?
Neither can I.
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Neither can I.
So how did Jeremy know where it was? The thing is, it would of been dark, noisy coming in through the window crispy would of been barking then hed of had to find and load the weapon in the dark? Neville could of come down and shot at him in that time believing he was am intruder?
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So how did Jeremy know where it was? The thing is, it would of been dark, noisy coming in through the window crispy would of been barking then hed of had to find and load the weapon in the dark? Neville could of come down and shot at him in that time believing he was am intruder?
Lucy, it had been Jeremy's home until about 2 years prior to the murders. He would have known it like the back of his hand. All he had to do was to place the already loaded gun somewhere he could lay his hands on it. He may have bought some titbit for Crispy. It's pointless saying what may have gone wrong. To have planned and committed such a crime, the belief would surely have been that all "T's" were crossed and "I's" dotted.
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So how did Jeremy know where it was? The thing is, it would of been dark, noisy coming in through the window crispy would of been barking then hed of had to find and load the weapon in the dark? Neville could of come down and shot at him in that time believing he was am intruder?
He put the rifle he said he had already loaded somewhere easy to retrieve.
Crispy was not a problem. It was not a guard dog & was probably asleep.Dogs do sleep. If it did wake & bark there is no guarantee anyone else would wake, or wake in time. Crispy may have been locked in another room anyway.
These are minor potential problems Bamber may have encountered. Which supporters try to magnify. They in no way would deter Bamber as the reward was so high.
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He put the rifle he said he had already loaded somewhere easy to retrieve.
Crispy was not a problem. It was not a guard dog & was probably asleep.Dogs do sleep. If it did wake & bark there is no guarantee anyone else would wake, or wake in time. Crispy may have been locked in another room anyway.
These are minor potential problems Bamber may have encountered. Which supporters try to magnify. They in no way would deter Bamber as the reward was so high.
Maybe. Perhaps the cops opened the door of the room he was locked in and Crispy fled to the Master Bedroom hid under the bed, but also interfered with gun/Sheilla.
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Hyperactive dogs that are liable to run amok at night will be put in another room behind a closed door. Or outside in a kennel.
Well behaved dogs, the owners may allow the dog to sleep in the same room or bed as them. Or the dog is allocated an area in the kitchen or lounge to sleep.
Crispy wasn't in an outside kennel. So was either in another room behind a closed door, in the master bedroom or in an area in WHF where he was given given freedom to roam about.