Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on June 02, 2015, 05:24:PM
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Some supporters claim that Neville had not been to bed on the massacre night. He had been up all night trying to calm Sheila down. Apparently Sheila may have fired a gun outside during the course of the night. As someone apparently heard a gun.
Is it likely Neville had been up all night ?
Well he was in his PJ's and bare footed. So if he had not gone to bed, he was certainly about to go to bed.
If he was about to go to bed and Sheila then started playing up, would he not have put on a dressing gown and slippers ? Especially if he had to go outside.
Ìf he was about to go to bed, it may have been around 10pm. But Jeremy was not called until after 3am. Five hours is a hell of a long time for Neville to spend trying to sweet talk Sheila without getting physical. And without asking for June's assistance.
So it seems unlikely Neville had been awake all night.
When did Neville wake ?
Perhaps Neville was woken after hearing Sheila moving around downstairs at WHF. But I thought Sheila wanted to execute everyone. She just had to pick up the rifle and go upstairs, which would be quick and quiet. After all she had already seen Jeremy leave the loaded rifle downstairs.
If Neville went downstairs to investigate noises, wouldn't he have put on slippers, a dressing gown, perhaps armed himself for protection and woken June ?
When Sheila started shooting in the main bedroom, this may have been when Neville woke. He was shot at close range next to June, by the bed. But then how and why did he phone Jeremy ? It was too late. He could not speak after the upstairs shots and why was there no blood on the phone ?
What do other people believe Neville's sleeping pattern was that night ?
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It seems that Sheila had either been to bed or was about to go to bed.
She was in a nightie and bare footed.
It is doubtful both Sheila and Neville had been awake, engaging with each other and walking around WHF all night. Sheila in a skimpy nightie, Neville in PJ's.
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Not much of a response here.
Perhaps supporters know that it looks very much like both Neville and Sheila had just got out of bed.
Both bare foot. Sheila in a skimpy nightdress, Neville in PJ's.
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Well, Colin stated (in his book) that Nevill regularly went to bed between 21:30 and 22:00, later followed by June.
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Everything looks like an ambush on Neville.
Shot accurately next to June by the bed from close range. Found beaten and shot again downstairs. Bare foot and in PJ's.
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I don't think he had been up all night, I believe he had gone to bed.
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as he was in his night clothes clothes i would asume he had gone to bed and got up agian.
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So he slept in the kitchen,then.
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He may have gone to bed and got up again several times. Sheila may have gone through several periods of quiet introspection followed by periods of manic ranting.
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I have always found it strange that there was no blood on Nevill´s side of the bed. I think they were both in bed when the shootings commenced, but then I have to conclude that June was shot first and Nevill got out of bed and got shot standing. Can´t be 100% sure of course, but that is what it looks like to me considering the amount of casings found in the bedroom.
So June was the main target?
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39404;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=40864;image)
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I have always found it strange that there was no blood on Nevill´s side of the bed. I think they were both in bed when the shootings commenced, but then I have to conclude that June was shot first and Nevill got out of bed and got shot standing. Can´t be 100% sure of course, but that is what it looks like to me considering the amount of casings found in the bedroom.
So June was the main target?
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39404;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=40864;image)
June bled on the bed mainly because of her exit wounds but also because she was lying down and her bleeding wounds were in direct contact with the bed. The blood seen int he photos is not high velocity impact spatter. There was likely impact spatter but it is too small to see in the photos. It also thus could be on Nevill's side but too small to see. He was not shot while lying down in bed and didn't even have any exit wounds. His wounds caused his mouth to bled and his arm but it would take time for blood to get from those wounds to the bed. He would have to stay in bed for such blood to get in the bed. He was either seated in bed getting ready to get up or actually in the process of getting up when he was shot so not seeing blood in bed is not surprising. The photos would not capture the tiny amounts of blood that would have been likely to get on the bed.
June way rolling around on the bed. Her exit wounds were touching the bed causing a good mount of blood to transfer. Her head was on the pillow as the wound above her ear occurred and she was still lying on the pillow as she bled on it. The difference between lying on a bed bleeding and being shot while getting out of bed is quite stark.
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June bled on the bed mainly because of her exit wounds but also because she was lying down and her bleeding wounds were in direct contact with the bed. The blood seen int he photos is not high velocity impact spatter. There was likely impact spatter but it is too small to see in the photos. It also thus could be on Nevill's side but too small to see. He was not shot while lying down in bed and didn't even have any exit wounds. His wounds caused his mouth to bled and his arm but it would take time for blood to get from those wounds to the bed. He would have to stay in bed for such blood to get in the bed. He was either seated in bed getting ready to get up or actually in the process of getting up when he was shot so not seeing blood in bed is not surprising. The photos would not capture the tiny amounts of blood that would have been likely to get on the bed.
June way rolling around on the bed. Her exit wounds were touching the bed causing a good mount of blood to transfer. Her head was on the pillow as the wound above her ear occurred and she was still lying on the pillow as she bled on it. The difference between lying on a bed bleeding and being shot while getting out of bed is quite stark.
Why are you basically saying the same thing I did - just using four times the amount of words?
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Why are you basically saying the same thing I did - just using four times the amount of words?
Nice to see that you're refreshed after your holiday, Alias! ;D
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I have always found it strange that there was no blood on Nevill´s side of the bed. I think they were both in bed when the shootings commenced, but then I have to conclude that June was shot first and Nevill got out of bed and got shot standing. Can´t be 100% sure of course, but that is what it looks like to me considering the amount of casings found in the bedroom.
So June was the main target?
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39404;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=40864;image)
Because June WAS the main target,Neville too was in Sheila's bad books for siding with his wife,and not Sheila over the fostering of the children.June too had recently relapsed,healthwise, which gave Neville the added worry of two sick women and two little boys to tend to.
Jeremy didn't come into the equation. He'd gone home,possibly having heard the same discussion over and over.
I have no doubts whatsoever who the killer was.
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Nice to see that you're refreshed after your holiday, Alias! ;D
Hahaha, thank you! ;D
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Hope you had a good one,Alias.
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Because June WAS the main target,Neville too was in Sheila's bad books for siding with his wife,and not Sheila over the fostering of the children.June too had recently relapsed,healthwise, which gave Neville the added worry of two sick women and two little boys to tend to.
Jeremy didn't come into the equation. He'd gone home,possibly having heard the same discussion over and over.
I have no doubts whatsoever who the killer was.
It is natural to conclude that. If Nevill had been the main target and the couple were caught unawares in their sleep, which it looks like they were, the blood would have been on his side, not on June´s. There is no explaining that away.
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It is natural to conclude that. If Nevill had been the main target and the couple were caught unawares in their sleep, which it looks like they were, the blood would have been on his side, not on June´s. There is no explaining that away.
Who slept closer to the door?
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Who slept closer to the door?
Which door do you mean? I assume it is the one the shooter entered through, so that would have been June, and I can see where you are coming from; but Nevill would still have been a greater hurdle for the killer, so why shoot June first?
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Who slept closer to the door?
June,by the looks of things.
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Which door do you mean? I assume it is the one the shooter entered through, so that would have been June, and I can see where you are coming from; but Nevill would still have been a greater hurdle for the killer, so why shoot June first?
To instantly remove her from the equation. If you're the shooter, it makes the most sense to shoot whoever is closest to the door you've just entered.
Certainly doesn't suggest that she was the MAIN target, but just that she was closest to the entrance.
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It is natural to conclude that. If Nevill had been the main target and the couple were caught unawares in their sleep, which it looks like they were, the blood would have been on his side, not on June´s. There is no explaining that away.
He planned to pretend he received a phone call from Nevill. He couldn't kill Nevill in his sleep and yet still claim he received such a call. He shot June first allowing his father to start to get up before targeting him expecting him to fall dead by the nightstand and likely planned to then put the phone back. But he ran out of bullets before he could kill Nevill and things progressed to the kitchen so he didn't bother replacing the phone.
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He planned to pretend he received a phone call from Nevill. He couldn't kill Nevill in his sleep and yet still claim he received such a call. He shot June first allowing his father to start to get up before targeting him expecting him to fall dead by the nightstand and likely planned to then put the phone back. But he ran out of bullets before he could kill Nevill and things progressed to the kitchen so he didn't bother replacing the phone.
That is one hell of a risky plan! Not quite buying it.
To make things fit, one moment Jeremy has to have been cool and calculating, the next, a blathering idiot leaving behind the most obvious and incriminating evidence.
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That is one hell of a risky plan! Not quite buying it.
To make things fit, one moment Jeremy has to have been cool and calculating, the next, a blathering idiot leaving behind the most obvious and incriminating evidence.
Julie said he told her he planned to say he received a distress call. He told her about such plan before he carried out the murders. He couldn't claim that June called him. June would have woken up Nevill if Sheila was running around with a gun she would not have called Jeremy. He had to pretend Nevill phoned him asking for help. He assumed that the shots he fired into Nevill would be able to kill him he didn't realize he would fail to do so and that he would then be engaged in a struggle. He had to shoot 1 parent before the other so either way he risked the other one waking up and trying to jump him. That is why he wanted a semi-auto rifle with a suitable magazine load though- so he could shoot one then shoot the other. He wasn't standing right next to Nevill, so that Nevill could grab the rifle as he was shooting June. He didn't see it as risky. He shot June then shot Nevill, the 4 shots simply failed to kill him like he anticipated.
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Who slept closer to the door?
June ;D. Nicely explained ;)
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June ;D. Nicely explained ;)
I rest my case! ;D
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Which door do you mean? I assume it is the one the shooter entered through, so that would have been June, and I can see where you are coming from; but Nevill would still have been a greater hurdle for the killer, so why shoot June first?
Whoever the killer was, they intened to kill both June and Nevill - there was no 'main target'. If The killer was only interested in killing June, why did they also kill two sleeping boys? They were all the main targets.
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Whoever the killer was, they intened to kill both June and Nevill - there was no 'main target'. If The killer was only interested in killing June, why did they also kill two sleeping boys? They were all the main targets.
I am talking about what would have been practical - for Jeremy. He would have to take a massive risk by not shooting Nevill first.
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I am talking about what would have been practical - for Jeremy. He would have to take a massive risk by not shooting Nevill first.
He had a loaded gun, there was no phone in the bedroom, he'd removed it, he was standing in the doorway - he had caught them by suprise in the middle of the night. Neither of them posed a risk to him, he had the odds truly in his favour.
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He had a loaded gun, there was no phone in the bedroom, he'd removed it, he was standing in the doorway - he had caught them by suprise in the middle of the night. Neither of them posed a risk to him, he had the odds truly in his favour.
Daunting though, right?
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He had a loaded gun, there was no phone in the bedroom, he'd removed it, he was standing in the doorway - he had caught them by suprise in the middle of the night. Neither of them posed a risk to him, he had the odds truly in his favour.
That certainly was how he viewed it plus he planned to pretend he received a distress call from Nevill so instead of shooting him lying in bed planned to shoot him as he was getting up or after he got up.
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I am talking about what would have been practical - for Jeremy. He would have to take a massive risk by not shooting Nevill first.
He evidently did get a few shots at Nevill, enough to make him less of a threat. We don't know how many times he shot June initially, he may have come back to finish the job after reloading and killing his father.
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Daunting though, right?
Not if you're standing holding a loaded gun.
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Not if you're standing holding a loaded gun.
I don´t agree with that. The situation could easily get totally out of control, what was he thinking! And what about Sheila and the boys, didn´t he worry they might wake up and start running?
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I don´t agree with that. The situation could easily get totally out of control, what was he thinking! And what about Sheila and the boys, didn´t he worry they might wake up and start running?
That's your prerogative but if Nevill could have easily disarmed Jeremy (which I don't agree with) he could far easily have disarmed Sheila - you have the same problem whoever the killer was - but more of a risk of Sheila being disarmed.
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3 adults yet no-one had the presence of mind to quickly dial 999 ? I don't buy it.
3 flights of stairs in the place ? A gunman/woman can't be in two places at once ?
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3 adults yet no-one had the presence of mind to quickly dial 999 ? I don't buy it.
3 flights of stairs in the place ? A gunman/woman can't be in two places at once ?
That is one of the reasons I think that if Jeremy is the guilty one, he would have had an accomplice. Too many people in three different rooms - besides, he couldn´t know they all would actually be in their beds when he entered the house.
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That is one of the reasons I think that if Jeremy is the guilty one, he would have had an accomplice. Too many people in three different rooms - besides, he couldn´t know they all would actually be in their beds when he entered the house.
When you break into your parents house late at night, I think you can feel pretty certain that people will be in bed though.
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3 adults yet no-one had the presence of mind to quickly dial 999 ? I don't buy it.
3 flights of stairs in the place ? A gunman/woman can't be in two places at once ?
They didn't need to be in two places at once, Nevill was already injured, so was June. You say no one had the presence of mind to quickly call 999 yet defend Jeremy when that accusation is levelled at him. ;D
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That is one of the reasons I think that if Jeremy is the guilty one, he would have had an accomplice. Too many people in three different rooms - besides, he couldn´t know they all would actually be in their beds when he entered the house.
at 3am? ??? - if he was just inside the main bedroom, he was in a good position to deal with all three adults.
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When you break into your parents house late at night, I think you can feel pretty certain that people will be in bed though.
The thing is, elderly people tend to have to get up during the night to use the bathroom, so no. he couldn´t count on them being in bed.
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The thing is, elderly people tend to have to get up during the night to use the bathroom, so no. he couldn´t count on them being in bed.
I guess they would have the bathroom light on if they were using the bathroom, visible from outside? Although I think that excuse is very weak to be honest.
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The thing is, elderly people tend to have to get up during the night to use the bathroom, so no. he couldn´t count on them being in bed.
Bit of a generalisation but they were in their sixties, not their 80's. Just because someone is older doesn't mean they automatically need the loo more.
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I guess they would have the bathroom light on if they were using the bathroom, visible from outside? Although I think that excuse is very weak to be honest.
I am trying to imagine standing outside that house in the middle of the night right before entereing. Five people in three different rooms, a dog which might wake people up, the possibility that all were not in their beds. The strong possibility that Sheila at least would wake up from the noise of the first shots, if we assume June was shot first, then Nevill.
In all honesty, it seems daunting and close to impossible to me.
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Bit of a generalisation but they were in their sixties, not their 80's. Just because someone is older doesn't mean they automatically need the loo more.
You just wait and see.... LOL
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If Jeremy is in WHF shooting people it is too late to dial 999.
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You just wait and see.... LOL
My mother is older than Nevill and June but doesn't get up in the night. I do know this for a fact because she moved in with us after my dad died.
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The thing is, elderly people tend to have to get up during the night to use the bathroom, so no. he couldn´t count on them being in bed.
He was prepared to take the risk.
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He was prepared to take the risk.
He'd already began stacking the card in his favour, phone from bedroom moved - loaded gun.
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I am trying to imagine standing outside that house in the middle of the night right before entereing. Five people in three different rooms, a dog which might wake people up, the possibility that all were not in their beds. The strong possibility that Sheila at least would wake up from the noise of the first shots, if we assume June was shot first, then Nevill.
In all honesty, it seems daunting and close to impossible to me.
Once he has fired 11 bullets into June and Neville, with silencer attached, what is he left with. I'll tell you what, a sleeping woman and two sleeping 6 year old's.
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My mother is older than Nevill and June but doesn't get up in the night. I do know this for a fact because she moved in with us after my dad died.
People are different.
First off, it's important to understand that as we get older, our bodies' ability to hold fluids for long periods decreases, thanks to a decline in antidiuretic hormones. So even though we're drinking the same amount, we have to go the bathroom more often. This is why middle-of-the-night bathroom runs become so common as we age.
https://www.caring.com/questions/waking-up-to-use-the-bathroom
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Once he has fired 11 bullets into June and Neville, with silencer attached, what is he left with. I'll tell you what, a sleeping woman and two sleeping 6 year old's.
Could be, but he couldn´t have counted on it, absolutely not.
Besides, it got a bit messy with poor Nevill, didn´t it? It couln´t all have been all that quiet.
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Could be, but he couldn´t have counted on it, absolutely not.
Besides, it got a bit messy with poor Nevill, didn´t it? It couln´t all have been all that quiet.
Yes Neville woke seconds prior to a pillow head shot.
That wasn't part of the plan.
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People are different.
https://www.caring.com/questions/waking-up-to-use-the-bathroom
Which was my point, I wasn't the one who was generalising. Not all older people have bladder problems and there is no reason to assume that Nevill and or June did.
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Which was my point, I wasn't the one who was generalising. Not all older people have bladder problems and there is no reason to assume that Nevill and or June did.
It is rather common, so I am not just grabbing this out of thin air.
Anyway, he couldn´t count on all being in their beds for whatever reason - five people.
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Could be, but he couldn´t have counted on it, absolutely not.
Besides, it got a bit messy with poor Nevill, didn´t it? It couln´t all have been all that quiet.
He couldn't have counted on anything which is why it did get messy, however, he managed to complete what he set out to do.
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June was a light sleeper,being scared to sleep in case of nightmares that she used to suffer from. Sheila only lay on top of her bed,so she wasn't exactly ready for sleep,as schizophrenics are awake for most of the night anyway. They're prone to psychotic attacks at night.
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It is rather common, so I am not just grabbing this out of thin air.
Anyway, he couldn´t count on all being in their beds for whatever reason - five people.
Well, it obviously didn't stop him from going ahead,
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It is rather common, so I am not just grabbing this out of thin air.
Anyway, he couldn´t count on all being in their beds for whatever reason - five people.
95 times out of 100 everyone would be asleep at 2am.
If the twins were babies that might be 50 times.
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June was a light sleeper,being scared to sleep in case of nightmares that she used to suffer from. Sheila only lay on top of her bed,so she wasn't exactly ready for sleep,as schizophrenics are awake for most of the night anyway. They're prone to psychotic attacks at night.
Only when they aren't taking medication.
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It is rather common, so I am not just grabbing this out of thin air.
Anyway, he couldn´t count on all being in their beds for whatever reason - five people.
Not sure a 24 year old would give that much thought. It certainly wouldn't cross my mind as a concern.
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Only when they aren't taking medication.
Which Sheila wasn't. There was only a trace of the Haldol in her blood,so all others which were to counteract the side effects,along with the anti-psychotics,hadn't been taken. Any trace of those would have been wiped out by the cannabis.
Does anyone know how long Sheila had been smoking cannabis ?
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Well, it obviously didn't stop him from going ahead,
I have my doubts, but that is no secret.
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Neville didn't finish work on the farm until late. He went back to the field ,was it before or after Jeremy left ? He'd then have to take the two dogs out,which seemingly was a ritual every night,so by the time he returned,it would have been getting on for midnight.
He showered downstairs on his return,so it's anyone's guess what happened after that.
It had been originally thought that all were dead by midnight.? If that had been the time,what indications would there have been if this had been the case,or not ?
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Which Sheila wasn't. There was only a trace of the Haldol in her blood,so all others which were to counteract the side effects,along with the anti-psychotics,hadn't been taken. Any trace of those would have been wiped out by the cannabis.
Does anyone know how long Sheila had been smoking cannabis ?
Yes she was.
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Neville didn't finish work on the farm until late. He went back to the field ,was it before or after Jeremy left ? He'd then have to take the two dogs out,which seemingly was a ritual every night,so by the time he returned,it would have been getting on for midnight.
He showered downstairs on his return,so it's anyone's guess what happened after that.
It had been originally thought that all were dead by midnight.? If that had been the time,what indications would there have been if this had been the case,or not ?
We don't know that at all. According to Colin, Neville liked to be in bed by 10pm
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Yes she was.
There were no other drugs in her bloodstream------------and there should have been if she'd been taking them. There was no sign of the Stelazine anti-psychotic,or Anafranil ( anti-depressive ) where suicide is a known fact among depressives,then finally the Procyclidine which counteracts the side-effects of anti-psychotic drugs.
Without having taken any of these prescribed drugs,Sheila would have been disturbed and agitated. Withdrawal from these things is dangerous.
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We don't know that at all. According to Colin, Neville liked to be in bed by 10pm
It does state somewhere that Neville went to collect a trailer during or after Jeremy had left. What time did Jeremy leave ? Did he know that his father hadn't finished ? Obviously not.
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It does state somewhere that Neville went to collect a trailer during or after Jeremy had left. What time did Jeremy leave ? Did he know that his father hadn't finished ? Obviously not.
Nope.
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It's roughly 72 hours for drugs to be out of the system,so clearly Sheila hadn't taken any medication.
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It's roughly 72 hours for drugs to be out of the system,so clearly Sheila hadn't taken any medication.
She didn't need to take her medication, it was delivered by injection.
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She didn't need to take her medication, it was delivered by injection.
Halved the last time she got her shot.
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Halved the last time she got her shot.
She was still taking/receiving medication which is different from not taking/receiving it.
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She didn't need to take her medication, it was delivered by injection.
What,she didn't need to take her medication ? The Haldol intramuscular was only a part of what she SHOULD have been taking,and even that had been reduced and was nearing the end of its strength. It was vital that she should have taken what had been prescribed for her.
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She was still taking/receiving medication which is different from not taking/receiving it.
The dosage is not insignificant. It is dangerous to cut down Haloperidol drastically and without monitoring the patient, preferably in a hospital setting.
That is what is recommended, cut down by 10 mg at a time, then monitor for a week, then cut down another 10 mg, monitor and so on.
Besides, Dr. Angeloglou was angry at her assisting Dr. Wilkinson for cutting down the dose - if it didn´t mean anything, why was she angry?
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Between 30% and 40% of schizophrenics attempt,or even take their lives during their lifetime. Quite a high percentage. Of those,people between the ages of 16-30 use cannabis.
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To instantly remove her from the equation. If you're the shooter, it makes the most sense to shoot whoever is closest to the door you've just entered.
Certainly doesn't suggest that she was the MAIN target, but just that she was closest to the entrance.
I cannot accept that anyone wanting to shoot the whole family given a choice between the two would shoot June before Nevill.
Surely Nevill was the main threat to an assassin and it would be in his/her interest to put him out of action first? Shooting June first would have alerted Nevill and put the shooter at greater risk?
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I cannot accept that anyone wanting to shoot the whole family given a choice between the two would shoot June before Nevill.
Surely Nevill was the main threat to an assassin and it would be in his/her interest to put him out of action first? Shooting June first would have alerted Nevill and put the shooter at greater risk?
Greater risk of what? Jeremy had removed the phone. He was in the doorway with a gun at night time. He had the element of suprise and a gun, he couldn't kill his Dad in the bed because of the staged phone call.
You've argued in the past that Neville was elderly and frail, wouldn't have been able to fight of Sheila because she had the gun.
But now he stands a chance against Jeremy.
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I cannot accept that anyone wanting to shoot the whole family given a choice between the two would shoot June before Nevill.
Surely Nevill was the main threat to an assassin and it would be in his/her interest to put him out of action first? Shooting June first would have alerted Nevill and put the shooter at greater risk?
That is what I think too. I have a hard time seeing Jeremy having had the nerve to calculate that he had to shoot Nevill after he got out of bed because he needed the phone "alibi" - which by the way was no alibi anyway.
Cannot see him taking such a risk.
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That is what I think too. I have a hard time seeing Jeremy having had the nerve to calculate that he had to shoot Nevill after he got out of bed because he needed the phone "alibi" - which by the way was no alibi anyway.
Cannot see him taking such a risk.
But you believe Sheila shot June first and that Neville went downstairs and phone Jeremy and not an ambulance? That just would not happen.
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The dosage is not insignificant. It is dangerous to cut down Haloperidol drastically and without monitoring the patient, preferably in a hospital setting.
That is what is recommended, cut down by 10 mg at a time, then monitor for a week, then cut down another 10 mg, monitor and so on.
Besides, Dr. Angeloglou was angry at her assisting Dr. Wilkinson for cutting down the dose - if it didn´t mean anything, why was she angry?
Because of a turf war or they were such lousy doctors they didn't even realize 200MG was an absurd amount.
The truth is that after the cut in half she was still taking the highest safe dosage. She was given way too much of a dosage. The reason for cutting in small increments is to figure out the minimal dosage necessary for maintenance. You are not supposed to start someone at more than 100MG though and then to work down from there you start at between 50 and 100 and work down. They stopped manufacturing Haldol decanoate in doses higher than 100MG because greater doses provide no better performance simply bad side effects. They didn't know at the time of the murders there was zero added performance but still had reason to know of the oversedating caused by such large doses.
It is dishonest to keep suggesting the medication would stop working because of the reduction, there is no effective difference between 100MG and 200MG. There is a big difference in that someone taking 200MG would have a hard time living a normal life they would be over sedated. Even at 100MG she was oversedated though in part that was because she was not taking a counter agent. She could have been taking something that gave her energy but she never refilled the prescription. So despite the cut she was still overly tired, vacant, communication problems and the rest...
She exhibited no signs of relapsing after the dosage reduction and no signs of withdrawal.
This whole issue is a red herring of sorts because the evidence that proves Sheila didn't kill herself and didn't do anything to anyone else. Even if she had been completely taken off her medication and thus was a ticking time bomb for a new episode eventually that still would not in any way counter the evidence that she could not have killed herself and didn't do anything to anyone else.
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No difference between 100mg and 200mg-------------I see 100mg straight away,and in medication,that's a Hell of a difference.
Why do you think she was put on the top dose ??
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But you believe Sheila shot June first and that Neville went downstairs and phone Jeremy and not an ambulance? That just would not happen.
I can see your point.
Nevill might not have been in bed at that time. There is no blood on his side, the blood on the carpet was from June who apparently had been walking around the bed bleeding. None from Nevill in the bedroom, which is strange.
Then there is the problem with the casings, I can see that.
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About the Haldol - there is a reason it is recommended never to cut down the dosage drastically without monitoring, and of course there is a difference between 200mg and 100mg, that is self evident!
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Greater risk of what? Jeremy had removed the phone. He was in the doorway with a gun at night time. He had the element of suprise and a gun, he couldn't kill his Dad in the bed because of the staged phone call.
You've argued in the past that Neville was elderly and frail, wouldn't have been able to fight of Sheila because she had the gun.
But now he stands a chance against Jeremy.
I have never argued Nevill was elderly and frail, have always said Nevill had the greatest reach, was taller than Jeremy and fit for his age. I have always believed if Nevill was beaten with the gun it was after he had been shot and sitting down. He would have to have been lower than his assailant for him to be bludgeoned in the face the way he was whether it was done by Sheila or Jeremy.
I cannot see the logic in shooting the lesser threat before the greater threat if both June and Nevill were sleeping, I mean he was a sitting target, why take the chance of alerting Nevill by shooting June when a few shots to Nevill's head would have put him out of action if it hadn't killed him outright then June would have been easy to deal with. I am sure if Jeremy had taken a year to plan the attack he would surely have reached the conclusion Nevill needed taking out first if at all possible..... doesn't make sense. There may have been a reason why June was shot first but I don't accept June was shot first simply because she was nearer the door or that it made no difference who was shot first, because it obviously did.
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I cannot accept that anyone wanting to shoot the whole family given a choice between the two would shoot June before Nevill.
Surely Nevill was the main threat to an assassin and it would be in his/her interest to put him out of action first? Shooting June first would have alerted Nevill and put the shooter at greater risk?
The evidence establishes that is what happened. June was shot first while she was still in bed while Nevill was shot sitting on the bed or as he was rising. Jeremy did that for a calculated reason, his plan featured pretending Nevill phoned him with a distress call. This fake call was to give him an alibi and simultaneously to falsely implicate Sheila thus assisting in framing her. He had 10 rounds in the gun and though that was more than sufficient to kill both of them, he ended up not targeting Nevill as effectively as he anticipated and thus was wrong. He didn't miss him though he ended up causing severe enough damage that he was able to beat Nevill without being injured in any way during the struggle. In no small part that is due to Nevill's left arm being severely impaired by the gunshot wound. If not for that wound things could have turned out differently. Jeremy could have ended up having to flee without completing his mission. Nevill's inability to speak though would have inhibited calling for help. It is thus hard to predict the exact outcome.
Jeremy was convinced he would be able to kill them all and he was right about that part. The unanticipated problems he faced didn't stop him. The fact they were unanticipated says it all he expected to be able to kill both in the bedroom with 10 shots.
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I have never argued Nevill was elderly and frail, have always said Nevill had the greatest reach, was taller than Jeremy and fit for his age. I have always believed if Nevill was beaten with the gun it was after he had been shot and sitting down. He would have to have been lower than his assailant for him to be bludgeoned in the face the way he was whether it was done by Sheila or Jeremy.
I cannot see the logic in shooting the lesser threat before the greater threat if both June and Nevill were sleeping, I mean he was a sitting target, why take the chance of alerting Nevill by shooting June when a few shots to Nevill's head would have put him out of action if it hadn't killed him outright then June would have been easy to deal with. I am sure if Jeremy had taken a year to plan the attack he would surely have reached the conclusion Nevill needed taking out first if at all possible..... doesn't make sense. There may have been a reason why June was shot first but I don't accept June was shot first simply because she was nearer the door or that it made no difference who was shot first, because it obviously did.
Well you're entitled to your opinion, but the evidence shows June was shot first.
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That is what I think too. I have a hard time seeing Jeremy having had the nerve to calculate that he had to shoot Nevill after he got out of bed because he needed the phone "alibi" - which by the way was no alibi anyway.
Cannot see him taking such a risk.
Maggie it would have all happened so quickly and Jeremy would be stood in the bedroom door and he needed Ralph on his feet so as he could use the phone call alibi. Jeremy was the one with the advantage he was holding a loaded rifle and I guess Ralph and June would have been awoken suddenly and would not grasp what was happening at first. Jeremy is still using this as his alibi .
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Maggie it would have all happened so quickly and Jeremy would be stood in the bedroom door and he needed Ralph on his feet so as he could use the phone call alibi. Jeremy was the one with the advantage he was holding a loaded rifle and I guess Ralph and June would have been awoken suddenly and would not grasp what was happening at first. Jeremy is still using this as his alibi .
This is how I see it too. Doesn't seem like a risk for Jeremy to shoot June first. He had a gun... he could do what he wanted.
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That is what I think too. I have a hard time seeing Jeremy having had the nerve to calculate that he had to shoot Nevill after he got out of bed because he needed the phone "alibi" - which by the way was no alibi anyway.
Cannot see him taking such a risk.
I agree Alias, it would have been ridiculously foolhardy for anyone to take such an unnecessary risk. It was a big enough risk at the best of times without making things even worse imo
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Why couldn´t Jeremy have made up a phone call "alibi" (wasn´t even an alibi) where it was June that called him? He could as easily have done that and shot Nevill first.
It doesn´t really make sense what is being put forward here.
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This is how I see it too. Doesn't seem like a risk for Jeremy to shoot June first. He had a gun... he could do what he wanted.
I don't agree, it doesn't make sense to me, it was an unnecessary risk and irrational imo.
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I don't agree, it doesn't make sense to me, it was an unnecessary risk and irrational imo.
How do you explain Junes blood being found in the bed in the positions it was? Did she sleep through Neville being shot in the room? I know that sounds like I am being sarcastic, but I am not. Why was she still laying down when Neville had just been shot?
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Maggie it would have all happened so quickly and Jeremy would be stood in the bedroom door and he needed Ralph on his feet so as he could use the phone call alibi. Jeremy was the one with the advantage he was holding a loaded rifle and I guess Ralph and June would have been awoken suddenly and would not grasp what was happening at first. Jeremy is still using this as his alibi .
I just cannot agree that given a choice he would choose to shoot June and alert Nevill instead of shooting Nevill first.
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did neviles side of bed look like it had been slept in.
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I just cannot agree that given a choice he would choose to shoot June and alert Nevill instead of shooting Nevill first.
Maggie maybe he was not given a choice June woke up first was she nearest the bedroom door.
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Maggie maybe he was not given a choice June woke up first was she nearest the bedroom door.
That's actually a very good point, she did sleep nearest the door. If someone opened my door, I would wake up. She could have been stirring and Jeremy could have fired within seconds of entering, it would match up with the blood.
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Neville had the higher degree of RM than either June or Sheila,so he'd have been put out of action sooner. I rather suspect that the twins were the first to go to avoid hearing anything. Leaving the two women to " battle it out " as I've always said. Neville died before June.
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did neviles side of bed look like it had been slept in.
nugnug yes but we have said no signs of blood on that side of the bed that we could see.
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did neviles side of bed look like it had been slept in.
It does.
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No difference between 100mg and 200mg-------------I see 100mg straight away,and in medication,that's a Hell of a difference.
Why do you think she was put on the top dose ??
Ferguson was either lazy or ignorant. His claims about Haldol not causing side bad effects is totally wrong even at the time they knew such medications caused tremors and other problems. He either never took the time to truly learn about the impact of the medication or he didn't really care. The attitude then was simply to load you up with medicine and not care about the consequences. Evne now there is a push to simply dope people up and not care about such inhibiting their ability to lead normal lives.
He started her at the maximum dose but didn't follow normal procedure of trying to reduce the dosage to find the minimum effective dosage he simply left her at 200MG without any instructions for reduction. This can only be attributed to laziness or ignorance of proper procedure.
The only thing that can be said in his defense is that studies that proved greater than 100MG have no added effectiveness were published after this so he had no way to know that at the time. He still should have known about the side effects though. It is as a result of those studies they stopped making and administering greater doses. Still he should have set about finding the minimum effective dosage.
He seemed to be totally ignorant of the problems caused by Haldol which doesn't speak too highly to his competence.
Here he claims it would be slightly sedating:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1200.0.html
The truth is that much would be more than just slightly sedating a counter agent is normal given to deal with such.
Here he said her doctor contacted him on July 15 requesting the dosage be cut to 100MG because she was receiving way too much:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1201.0.html
He said that he never sent the doctor an answer before the murders and because of the murders never followed up. So 3 weeks passed from the request and he did nothing- what was he waiting for?
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That's actually a very good point, she did sleep nearest the door. If someone opened my door, I would wake up. She could have been stirring and Jeremy could have fired within seconds of entering, it would match up with the blood.
Mat I have read on here that June was a light sleeper so she may have woken first when Jeremy appeared at the door he shot her and Ralph jumped up half asleep and so forth.
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How do you explain Junes blood being found in the bed in the positions it was? Did she sleep through Neville being shot in the room? I know that sounds like I am being sarcastic, but I am not. Why was she still laying down when Neville had just been shot?
Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking. I thought you claimed June was shot first by Jeremy entering the bedroom and seeing both sleeping chose to shoot June before Nevill, I was saying I found it hard to believe someone who had planned a cold blooded murder of the whole family over a year would surely have been aware of the danger Nevill posed rather than June.
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Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking. I thought you claimed June was shot first by Jeremy entering the bedroom and seeing both sleeping chose to shoot June before Nevill, I was saying I found it hard to believe someone who had planned a cold blooded murder of the whole family over a year would surely have been aware of the danger Nevill posed rather than June.
I understand what you're saying, you are saying he would have shot Neville first - as he posed the threat. But Junes blood in on her pillow and in the bed, so she was laid down - Nevilles blood wasn't - so how does that fit what you're saying that he would have shot neville first is what I am asking.
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Maggie maybe he was not given a choice June woke up first was she nearest the bedroom door.
If she had woke up first, and Jeremy be aware of it, she would have probably sat up quickly, but the blood shows that she was shot with her head still on the pillow.
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Why do people think that there is no report of Nevill´s blood in the bedroom?
I am asking simply because I find it strange. You are shot = you bleed.
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Why do people think that there is no report of Nevill´s blood in the bedroom?
I am asking simply because I find it strange. You are shot = you bleed.
I actually thought there was. Scip will know though.
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I understand what you're saying, you are saying he would have shot Neville first - as he posed the threat. But Junes blood in on her pillow and in the bed, so she was laid down - Nevilles blood wasn't - so how does that fit what you're saying that he would have shot neville first is what I am asking.
I know June's blood is on the pillow etc so she was obviously shot while still in bed as opposed to Nevill. So I am not saying June wasn't shot first but questioning whether Jeremy would have shot June first as those who believe JB was responsible do or whether as June was shot before Nevill it was an irrational decision and therefore was more likely to have been an irrational Sheila.
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I've read all kinds of theories attached to whether Neville went to bed at all.Also I've read that it was Sheila who was sitting on Neville's side of the bed while June read her the bible. This could have been while he was out walking the dogs or showering downstairs. There were two rifles in use.
We can only guess.
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Why do people think that there is no report of Nevill´s blood in the bedroom?
I am asking simply because I find it strange. You are shot = you bleed.
Alias welcome back :) I seem to think we discussed this before you went away that we could not see blood on Nevill's side of the bed I suppose he may have dripped some on the floor thought some was found on the wall on the stairs where he had brushed against it.
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I actually thought there was. Scip will know though.
I can only recall reading there was some blood on a wall in the hallway - I think it was Nevill´s, but I don´t remember reading about any in the bedroom.
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I know June's blood is on the pillow etc so she was obviously shot while still in bed as opposed to Nevill. So I am not saying June wasn't shot first but questioning whether Jeremy would have shot June first as those who believe JB was responsible do or whether as June was shot before Nevill it was an irrational decision and therefore was more likely to have been an irrational Sheila.
Maggie
I think the situation was just presented to Jeremy and he dealt with it in the only way he could and it would all happen so quick I would have thought who ever woke first would be the first to be shot.
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Maggie
I think the situation was just presented to Jeremy and he dealt with it in the only way he could and it would all happen so quick I would have thought who ever woke first would be the first to be shot.
But June´s head was still on the pillow when she was shot.
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But June´s head was still on the pillow when she was shot.
Alias she could have still been awake.
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Alias she could have still been awake.
If she was lying down and it all happened quickly, personally I think that Jeremy would have seen Nevill as a greater risk and he would fire the first shot at him, not June. That is how I see it anyway.
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If she was lying down and it all happened quickly, personally I think that Jeremy would have seen Nevill as a greater risk and he would fire the first shot at him, not June. That is how I see it anyway.
Alias guess we will never know :(
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Alias guess we will never know :(
We will not, all we know is that Nevill was not lying down when he was shot and June was. That´s it.
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We will not, all we know is that Nevill was not lying down when he was shot and June was. That´s it.
Alias do we know who actually received the first shot?
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Alias do we know who actually received the first shot?
No, we are all guessing, nobody knows.
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Alias do we know who actually received the first shot?
We don't, we can only guess but I think it is more likely to have been June. We don't know if he surprised them by putting on the light or, if he went in with the light off to cause maximum confusion. He may have left off the light which is why June was shot first because he had a better view of her than Nevill. We can't know what he was thinking that night as he committed the crime - we just know how it ended.
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We don't, we can only guess but I think it is more likely to have been June. We don't know if he surprised them by putting on the light or, if he went in with the light off to cause maximum confusion. He may have left off the light which is why June was shot first because he had a better view of her than Nevill. We can't know what he was thinking that night as he committed the crime - we just know how it ended.
Caroline just say for the sake of debate that Sheila had murdered her family one would have thought she would have shot her Dad first he was her biggest challenge but my feeling is either Sheila or Jeremy would have dealt with the situation presented to them at the time and it would all have happened in seconds.
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Caroline just say for the sake of debate that Sheila had murdered her family one would have thought she would have shot her Dad first he was her biggest challenge but my feeling is either Sheila or Jeremy would have dealt with the situation presented to them at the time and it would all have happened in seconds.
I agree Susan, the dilemma of who to shoot first would have applied to both Sheila and Jeremy, I think June got shot first for the simple reason that she was the nearest..
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I agree Susan, the dilemma of who to shoot first would have applied to both Sheila and Jeremy, I think June got shot first for the simple reason that she was the nearest..
I think the children were shot first, simply because of the risk of them waking up and running around would make it more difficult...
Shooting June and Nevill would run the risk of waking both the twins and Sheila.... :-\
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I think the children were shot first, simply because of the risk of them waking up and running around would make it more difficult...
Shooting June and Nevill would run the risk of waking both the twins and Sheila.... :-\
I don't think he thought about it that deeply. BUT, if he shot the twins first he would run the risk of waking Nevill and June - a far greater risk than two small boys.
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I think the children were shot first, simply because of the risk of them waking up and running around would make it more difficult...
Shooting June and Nevill would run the risk of waking both the twins and Sheila.... :-\
The silencer was used on purpose to mitigate the threat of people in other rooms waking up during the shots.
What would be worse waking the parents and having them confront you after you expend a magazine on the boys or the boys waking up and running around after you expend a magazine on the parents?
Shooting the boys first and risking the parents waking makes little sense and moreover had that happened then 10 shots would not have been fired into June and Nevill in the bedroom because the gun would not have been fully loaded at that point.
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I don't think he thought about it that deeply. BUT, if he shot the twins first he would run the risk of waking Nevill and June - a far greater risk than two small boys.
If he had been thinking about doing this for close to a year, I think he would have thought it through and decided where to start. It would be strange not to.
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If he had been thinking about doing this for close to a year, I think he would have thought it through and decided where to start. It would be strange not to.
Not really, thinking about and discussing killing his parents for a year doesn't mean he had a blue print. He knew basically what he wanted to do and how he was going to go about it. There are certain things that would have just happened as things unfolded. However, I find nothing strange in June being shot first (if she was) because she was the nearest to the door.
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I don't think he thought about it that deeply. BUT, if he shot the twins first he would run the risk of waking Nevill and June - a far greater risk than two small boys.
Yeah but if he had used a sound moderator there would have been no risk at waking anyone up. On saying that, when June was shoot she sat on the edge on the bed, then got up and walked towards the Sheila's side of the bed facing her killer, surely this would have generated some noise?
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Yeah but if he had used a sound moderator there would have been no risk at waking anyone up. On saying that, when June was shoot she sat on the edge on the bed, then got up and walked towards the Sheila's side of the bed facing her killer, surely this would have generated some noise?
Then it would make sense to take care of the adults first. We don't know if he killed June outright before following Nevill into the kitchen. she may have still been alive (but badly injured) and staggered around the bedroom.
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The silencer was used on purpose to mitigate the threat of people in other rooms waking up during the shots.
What would be worse waking the parents and having them confront you after you expend a magazine on the boys or the boys waking up and running around after you expend a magazine on the parents?
Shooting the boys first and risking the parents waking makes little sense and moreover had that happened then 10 shots would not have been fired into June and Nevill in the bedroom because the gun would not have been fully loaded at that point.
Shooting June first then Nevill in the same room would generate noise regardless of the moderator being used. Like I said June sat up, stood up facing her killer. Nevill surely would have made noise being shot 4 times then making his way downstairs...Are you saying this all happened in silence? I don't think so, but on saying that children sleep through noise, but I doubt their mother did. :-\
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Shooting June first then Nevill in the same room would generate noise regardless of the moderator being used. Like I said June sat up, stood up facing her killer. Nevill surely would have made noise being shot 4 times then making his way downstairs...Are you saying this all happened in silence? I don't think so, but on saying that children sleep through noise, but I doubt their mother did. :-\
There would have been some noise yes, but there would have been noise if he shot the twins first two which would have alerted Nevill or June or both. The sensible thing to do, would be to eliminate the adults first.
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There would have been some noise yes, but there would have been noise if he shot the twins first two which would have alerted Nevill or June or both. The sensible thing to do, would be to eliminate the adults first.
There would have only been noise if a sound moderator had not been used. Who is to know that this noise woke Nevill and he got up only to be surprised by a Sheila/Jeremy stood in the doorway? This could be the reason why NB was not in bed, he got up?
If the moderator was used there would have been no noise whilst shooting the twins...the rifle could have been reloaded at that point... :-\
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There would have only been noise if a sound moderator had not been used. Who is to know that this noise woke Nevill and he got up only to be surprised by a Sheila/Jeremy stood in the doorway? This could be the reason why NB was not in bed, he got up?
If the moderator was used there would have been no noise whilst shooting the twins...the rifle could have been reloaded at that point... :-\
Being as I don't think the moderator was used, then obviously I believe there would have been noise - but if Nevill woke up, why didn't June? The scene looks like an ambush.
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Being as I don't think the moderator was used, then obviously I believe there would have been noise - but if Nevill woke up, why didn't June? The scene looks like an ambush.
The silencer didn't make the gun 100% silent any way, did it?
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The silencer didn't make the gun 100% silent any way, did it?
No Mat, it didn't.
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A poster on Red said Sheila may have passed out.
People have passed out for less.
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Shooting June first then Nevill in the same room would generate noise regardless of the moderator being used. Like I said June sat up, stood up facing her killer. Nevill surely would have made noise being shot 4 times then making his way downstairs...Are you saying this all happened in silence? I don't think so, but on saying that children sleep through noise, but I doubt their mother did. :-\
At least 4 shots were to June as she was lying in bed. 2 more were either as she sat up or as she was starting to get out of bed. She wasn't likely standing during any of the shots but rather got up after. The final shot was as she was already on the floor.
How soundly people sleep varies. We don't have any information about how soundly the boys and Sheila normally slept. We know Sheila was over sedated though and that she even went to bed early as a result so there was a good chance of her and the boys not waking up. The walls to the house were thick and neither the boys nor Sheila were in a room adjacent to the master bedroom.
We also know that June was noted as being a light sleeper so is the person who would present the greatest chance of waking up if shots were being fired elsewhere.
It makes zero sense to shoot the boys and risk waking the parents and if that had happened then the killer would not have had 10 rounds to shoot Nevill and June with the fact a full magazine was used on them in the bedroom indicates they were first.
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At least 4 shots were to June as she was lying in bed. 2 more were either as she sat up or as she was starting to get out of bed. She wasn't likely standing during any of the shots but rather got up after. The final shot was as she was already on the floor.
How soundly people sleep varies. We don't have any information about how soundly the boys and Sheila normally slept. We know Sheila was over sedated though and that she even went to bed early as a result so there was a good chance of her and the boys not waking up. The walls to the house were thick and neither the boys nor Sheila were in a room adjacent to the master bedroom.
We also know that June was noted as being a light sleeper so is the person who would present the greatest chance of waking up if shots were being fired elsewhere.
It makes zero sense to shoot the boys and risk waking the parents and if that had happened then the killer would not have had 10 rounds to shoot Nevill and June with the fact a full magazine was used on them in the bedroom indicates they were first.
Exactly.
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Exactly.
Caroline
I think the wee twins were shot last.
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Caroline
I think the wee twins were shot last.
Either last of just before Sheila.
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At least 4 shots were to June as she was lying in bed. 2 more were either as she sat up or as she was starting to get out of bed. She wasn't likely standing during any of the shots but rather got up after. The final shot was as she was already on the floor.
How soundly people sleep varies. We don't have any information about how soundly the boys and Sheila normally slept. We know Sheila was over sedated though and that she even went to bed early as a result so there was a good chance of her and the boys not waking up. The walls to the house were thick and neither the boys nor Sheila were in a room adjacent to the master bedroom.
We also know that June was noted as being a light sleeper so is the person who would present the greatest chance of waking up if shots were being fired elsewhere.
It makes zero sense to shoot the boys and risk waking the parents and if that had happened then the killer would not have had 10 rounds to shoot Nevill and June with the fact a full magazine was used on them in the bedroom indicates they were first.
Do we know that Sheila was over sedated?
If the walls were thick and I believe they were, then any shooting upstairs would not have been heard from downstairs or even from the outside of the building...Is that what you are saying or am I guilty of putting a spin on things.... ;D
To be fair none of us know who was shot first or last for that matter.
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Do we know that Sheila was over sedated?
If the walls were thick and I believe they were, then any shooting upstairs would not have been heard from downstairs or even from the outside of the building...Is that what you are saying or am I guilty of putting a spin on things.... ;D
To be fair none of us know who was shot first or last for that matter.
No, that is taken out of thin air. Besides, looking at her bed, she had not been under the covers - unless Jeremy made her bed after he killed everyone - without shaking the pillow. Looks like she had lain on top pf the bedcover, not been to bed properly.
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We'd have heard well before now if any of the deceased had been sedated. N.A.D in bloods.
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No, that is taken out of thin air. Besides, looking at her bed, she had not been under the covers - unless Jeremy made her bed after he killed everyone - without shaking the pillow. Looks like she had lain on top pf the bedcover, not been to bed properly.
Hardly taken out of thin air Ferguson said Haldol is a major tranquilizer and ALWAYS has tranquilizing effects as a side effect. He described some of the effects of oversedation and then diagnosed her as having been oversedated based on the observations of Freddie, Colin and others who said that after she was put on Haldol she had problems speaking and appeared vacant and would constantly be tired, would go to sleep early etc.
(http://s18.postimg.org/weiayrxs9/fergusonoversedated.jpg)
(http://s30.postimg.org/pypqng669/fergusondescofoversedation.jpg)
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Fletcher says she was being over medicated though it was he who prescribed the 200mg dose. He also says he did nothing following the request from Dr Angeloglou on July 15th, to reduce the medication although unknown to Fletcher, Dr Angeloglou states that the July 11th dose was halved to 100mg. The next dose was due around the 11th of August.
Fletcher goes on to say that Cannabis and cocaine have no effect on Haloperidcol!
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Sheila was at the end of her monthly Haldol shot - which had been halved. Her system would have been used to a much, much higher dose.
It is taken out of thin air to say you know that Sheila was heavily sedated.
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Hardly taken out of thin air Ferguson said Haldol is a major tranquilizer and ALWAYS has tranquilizing effects as a side effect. He described some of the effects of oversedation and then diagnosed her as having been oversedated based on the observations of Freddie, Colin and others who said that after she was put on Haldol she had problems speaking and appeared vacant and would constantly be tired, would go to sleep early etc.
(http://s18.postimg.org/weiayrxs9/fergusonoversedated.jpg)
(http://s30.postimg.org/pypqng669/fergusondescofoversedation.jpg)
Over sedation ? Someone finally admitting that what they gave Sheila was WRONG ?? That she shouldn't have been receiving Haldol at all ? Who said that ? Or who contradicted who ? One doctor reduced the dose at Sheila's request. Another doctor said it shouldn't have been reduced ?
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Hardly taken out of thin air Ferguson said Haldol is a major tranquilizer and ALWAYS has tranquilizing effects as a side effect. He described some of the effects of oversedation and then diagnosed her as having been oversedated based on the observations of Freddie, Colin and others who said that after she was put on Haldol she had problems speaking and appeared vacant and would constantly be tired, would go to sleep early etc.
(http://s18.postimg.org/weiayrxs9/fergusonoversedated.jpg)
(http://s30.postimg.org/pypqng669/fergusondescofoversedation.jpg)
First, where does Dr. F say ALWAYS? I can´t see that.
Btw, he doesn´t even spell the name of the medication right! tsk tsk
"Common side effects of Haldol are nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, dry mouth, nervousness, headache, dizziness, spinning sensation, drowsiness, sleep problems (insomnia), restlessness, anxiety, skin rash, itching, spontaneous eye movements, mood changes, breast enlargement, irregular menstrual periods, loss of interest in sex, blurred vision, difficulty urinating or urinating less than usual, and occasional movement disorders."
http://www.rxlist.com/haldol-side-effects-drug-center.htm
What you claim does not add up.
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Sheila was at the end of her monthly Haldol shot - which had been halved. Her system would have been used to a much, much higher dose.
It is taken out of thin air to say you know that Sheila was heavily sedated.
The shots last 6 weeks, she had her shot 3 weeks earlier the dose in her system was still very potent. She exhibited the classic signs of being over sedated and even simply walked away from the phone to go to bed without saying goodnight. Days earlier she left a party early because she was tired and on the drive home from that party and on the drive to WHF she was quiet and "vacant". You close your eyes to the facts because you don't want to face them- your bias guides you instead of logic but you can't stand it when people point that out.
Her doctor said the description of her behavior her final weeks alive indicated she was over sedated. That is sufficient basis for me to assert she was and you have zilch to refute it.
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The shots last 6 weeks, she had her shot 3 weeks earlier the dose in her system was still very potent. She exhibited the classic signs of being over sedated and even simply walked away from the phone to go to bed without saying goodnight. Days earlier she left a party early because she was tired and on the drive home from that party and on the drive to WHF she was quiet and "vacant". You close your eyes to the facts because you don't want to face them- your bias guides you instead of logic but you can't stand it when people point that out.
Her doctor said the description of her behavior her final weeks alive indicated she was over sedated. That is sufficient basis for me to assert she was and you have zilch to refute it.
I can´t stand it when people create myths (as you do now) and claim they are facts. You don´t know a thing about what state Sheila was in, you tend to interpret to fit your personal beliefs.
The halving time of Haloperidol is 21 days, so Sheila would have been on 1/4 dose of her original shots of 200mg = nearing the end of the cycle.
Can´t you say anything without getting personal? You are obnoxcious, back on ignore with ya!
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I can´t stand it when people create myths (as you do now) and claim they are facts. You don´t know a thing about what state Sheila was in, you tend to interpret to fit your personal beliefs.
The halving time of Haloperidol is 21 days, so Sheila would have been on 1/4 dose of her original shots of 200mg = nearing the end of the cycle.
Can´t you say anything without getting personal? You are obnoxcious, back on ignore with ya!
You make it personal not me. You are a hypocrite who constantly projects her own flaws onto others.
You create myth after myth by posting things not supported by any evidence or outright refuted by evidence thus ignoring the evidence- from your myth that Jeremy could not fit through the kitchen window though he stated he had climbed through it, to your myth that Sheila complained about insomnia though she complained about being constantly tired, to this myth about how her medication was ending its effectiveness and ignoring Ferguson's diagnosis that she was over sedated.
You ignore studies which demonstrated greater than 100MG of Haldol offers no medical benefits so the manufacturer stopped making injections in doses greater than 100MG and make the totally unsupportable claim that because she was dropped down to only 100MG from 200MG it means the medication would likely not work. You have no medical support for such at all it is simply what you choose to believe so you can pretend that Sheila went crazy so you can justify your position of Jeremy being innocent.
You claimed I made it up from thin air that Sheila was over sedated though I posted evidence Ferguson assessed such. Instead of admitting you were wrong you double down and go on the offensive simultaneously playing the victim of personal attacks. Why bother with such drama? The evidence is not on your side and drama can't help somehow change that. Each shot last 6 weeks. 3 weeks passed from the date she got the shot- she was not on the last leg of it working.
(http://s21.postimg.org/6oc0hijyf/ferg6weeks.jpg)
(http://s18.postimg.org/weiayrxs9/fergusonoversedated.jpg)
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It's effects would have been counteracted by cannabis and anything else she partook of before she was dropped off at WHF,so what little Haldol she had left in her system would have been deemed ineffective against the deteriorating condition that she happened to have been in.
Certain foods too can interact with medication.
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It's effects would have been counteracted by cannabis and anything else she partook of before she was dropped off at WHF,so what little Haldol she had left in her system would have been deemed ineffective against the deteriorating condition that she happened to have been in.
Certain foods too can interact with medication.
It's amazing how many posters know better than the medical experts involved in the case. If only they had come here first. ;D ;D ;D
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It's amazing how many posters know better than the medical experts involved in the case. If only they had come here first. ;D ;D ;D
I'll take the experts opinion over supporters opinion. That's not a knock, but the experts are medically trained.
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Dr. Ferguson had no idea what was going on re Sheila´s medication - and neither did her family doctor for that matter.
Why trust them?
Dr. F couldn´t even spell her medication right...
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Dr. Ferguson had no idea what was going on re Sheila´s medication - and neither did her family doctor for that matter.
Why trust them?
Dr. F couldn´t even spell her medication right...
Did Dr Ferguson write that himself though?
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Did Dr Ferguson write that himself though?
Could be a typed interview - if it was, the officer would have had to ask the Dr. how it was spelled, don´t think that would be part of police education to know medical terms. ;D
On a more serious note, read Sheila´s three dovtors´ accounts, it is shocking, really. Especially Dr. Ferguson did not care and didn´t even want Sheila as his patient.
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Could be a typed interview - if it was, the officer would have had to ask the Dr. how it was spelled, don´t think that would be part of police education to know medical terms. ;D
Hence why it was spelt wrong.
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Hence why it was spelt wrong.
Not if the officer asked Dr. F - it should have been right.
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Hence why it was spelt wrong.
Statements are hand written and then typed up later. The person writing it probably could not read the handwriting.
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Dr. Ferguson had no idea what was going on re Sheila´s medication - and neither did her family doctor for that matter.
Why trust them?
Dr. F couldn´t even spell her medication right...
People here only think they know better. How do you know he spelled it wrong? It may not have been typed by him!
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Did Dr Ferguson write that himself though?
I very much doubt it.
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People here only think they know better. How do you know he spelled it wrong? It may not have been typed by him!
Yeah, I think this is it. With all the bluster you would think that the experts had been discredited on here, but they really haven't been.
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Yeah, I think this is it. With all the bluster you would think that the experts had been discredited on here, but they really haven't been.
One spelling (or typo) mistake and your whole career is in the toilet? ???
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It's amazing how many posters know better than the medical experts involved in the case. If only they had come here first. ;D ;D ;D
Okay------------put my post to an expert then,I dare you.
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Okay------------put my post to an expert then,I dare you.
Then tell me what he/she had to say. I'm not asking much.
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Okay------------put my post to an expert then,I dare you.
Which one?
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Then tell me what he/she had to say. I'm not asking much.
Why don't you put your post to an expert? I'd do it in a heartbeat if I knew which 'claim' you were talking about? You make so many! Of course if you were proven wrong (which you will be), you'll dismiss the expert as a 'quack' which you have done before. So what would be the point?
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6747.msg309810.html#msg309810
Do you mean this post Lookout? If so, what expert is going to comment on that without knowing more about the situation? You have made lots of assumptions without anything to back it up. She had trace amounts of cannabis in her system and her medication. There is nothing to suggest anything was reacting against her meds or that food she ate affected anything.
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One spelling (or typo) mistake and your whole career is in the toilet? ???
It is not only that, it is his whole indifferent attitude towards Sheila and her illness and the washing of hands you can read between the lines in his accounts.
Why did he think it was all right for a mother who thought her children were the Devil´s children, were women haters, wanted to rape and kill her - to have custody and alone time with those children?
His professional negligence was massive.
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It's effects would have been counteracted by cannabis and anything else she partook of before she was dropped off at WHF,so what little Haldol she had left in her system would have been deemed ineffective against the deteriorating condition that she happened to have been in.
Certain foods too can interact with medication.
This is the " offending " post which I wish for you to send to a professional in that field ( mental illnesses ) You know,the post that needed two PUT-DOWNS.
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Colin says in his book that no matter the success-level of Sheila´s medication, her mentel state ALWAYS severely deteriorated when she visited WHF.
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Colin says in his book that no matter the success-level of Sheila´s medication, her mentel state ALWAYS severely deteriorated when she visited WHF.
But was never violent.
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But was never violent.
"Violence was always just beneath the surface" - Colin Caffell.
He also does talk about actual physical violence among them.
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Not much ! There were times when she WAS violent,towards the children too. Why do you think SS were called in ? They don't call for nothing.
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"Violence was always just beneath the surface" - Colin Caffell.
He also does talk about actual physical violence among them.
Jeremy wanted to kill his family - Julie and various others testified to that!
The notion that Sheila was responsible is just as convoluted - Sheila in the throws of psychosis works out how to insert the magazine into a rifle she has never even prior. Works out how to chamber the first shot. Heads upstairs and shoots June while Nevill does nothing? He had to be in the bedroom to receive the initial shots so why didn't he mention he'd been shot to Jeremy? If he made the call to Jeremy first and then heard shots, saw June had been shot, why would he approach Sheila with a loaded gun and risk being shot himself? Surely he would try and lure her away from June and try and raise the alarm. How would the phone end up being off the hook if Sheila was upstairs shooting June when Nevill ended the call? It would take the same amount of time to replace the receiver as it would to place it on the bench and depress the button, in fact, probably less and it would be a natural reaction to replace it on the cradle. After being shot himself, he runs downstairs again - is he calling the police this time? Weird if he did because there's still nothing about him being shot on the (so called) rediscovered log? If things had escalated from a simple call to Jeremy asking him to come over, to then being forced by circumstances to call the police, why isn't any of that mentioned on the log? Both logs give the same information about sister/daughter going crazy/berserk with a gun. Nothing about anyone being shot!