Had Neville been up all night. If not when did he get out of bed ?

[lookout]

Between 30% and 40% of schizophrenics attempt,or even take their lives during their lifetime. Quite a high percentage. Of those,people between the ages of 16-30 use cannabis.

[maggie]

To instantly remove her from the equation. If you're the shooter, it makes the most sense to shoot whoever is closest to the door you've just entered.

Certainly doesn't suggest that she was the MAIN target, but just that she was closest to the entrance.

I cannot accept that anyone wanting to shoot the whole family given a choice between the two would shoot June before Nevill. 
Surely Nevill was the main threat to an assassin and it would be in his/her interest to put him out of action first?  Shooting June first would have alerted Nevill and put the shooter at greater risk?

[guest154]

I cannot accept that anyone wanting to shoot the whole family given a choice between the two would shoot June before Nevill. 
Surely Nevill was the main threat to an assassin and it would be in his/her interest to put him out of action first?  Shooting June first would have alerted Nevill and put the shooter at greater risk?

Greater risk of what? Jeremy had removed the phone. He was in the doorway with a gun at night time. He had the element of suprise and a gun, he couldn't kill his Dad in the bed because of the staged phone call.

You've argued in the past that Neville was elderly and frail, wouldn't have been able to fight of Sheila because she had the gun.

But now he stands a chance against Jeremy.

[Alias]

I cannot accept that anyone wanting to shoot the whole family given a choice between the two would shoot June before Nevill. 
Surely Nevill was the main threat to an assassin and it would be in his/her interest to put him out of action first?  Shooting June first would have alerted Nevill and put the shooter at greater risk?

That is what I think too. I have a hard time seeing Jeremy having had the nerve to calculate that he had to shoot Nevill after he got out of bed because he needed the phone "alibi" - which by the way was no alibi anyway.
Cannot see him taking such a risk.

[guest154]

That is what I think too. I have a hard time seeing Jeremy having had the nerve to calculate that he had to shoot Nevill after he got out of bed because he needed the phone "alibi" - which by the way was no alibi anyway.
Cannot see him taking such a risk.

But you believe Sheila shot June first and that Neville went downstairs and phone Jeremy and not an ambulance?  That just would not happen.

[scipio_usmc]

The dosage is not insignificant. It is dangerous to cut down Haloperidol drastically and without monitoring the patient, preferably in a hospital setting.
That is what is recommended, cut down by 10 mg at a time, then monitor for a week, then cut down another 10 mg, monitor and so on.

Besides, Dr. Angeloglou was angry at her assisting Dr. Wilkinson for cutting down the dose - if it didn´t mean anything, why was she angry?

Because of a turf war or they were such lousy doctors they didn't even realize 200MG was an absurd amount. 

The truth is that after the cut in half she was still taking the highest safe dosage.  She was given way too much of a dosage.  The reason for cutting in small increments is to figure out the minimal dosage necessary for maintenance.  You are not supposed to start someone at more than 100MG though and then to work down from there you start at between 50 and 100 and work down. They stopped manufacturing Haldol decanoate in doses higher than 100MG because greater doses provide no better performance simply bad side effects. They didn't know at the time of the murders there was zero added performance but still had reason to know of the oversedating caused by such large doses.

It is dishonest to keep suggesting the medication would stop working because of the reduction, there is no effective difference between 100MG and 200MG.  There is a big difference in that someone taking 200MG would have a hard time living a normal life they would be over sedated. Even at 100MG she was oversedated though in part that was because she was not taking a counter agent.  She could have been taking something that gave her energy but she never refilled the prescription.  So despite the cut she was still overly tired, vacant, communication problems and the rest...

She exhibited no signs of relapsing after the dosage reduction and no signs of withdrawal. 

This whole issue is a red herring of sorts because the evidence that proves Sheila didn't kill herself and didn't do anything to anyone else. Even if she had been completely taken off her medication and thus was a ticking time bomb for a new episode eventually that still would not in any way counter the evidence that she could not have killed herself and didn't do anything to anyone else.   

[lookout]

No difference between 100mg and 200mg-------------I see 100mg straight away,and in medication,that's a Hell of a difference.
Why do you think she was put on the top dose ??

[Alias]

But you believe Sheila shot June first and that Neville went downstairs and phone Jeremy and not an ambulance?  That just would not happen.

I can see your point.
Nevill might not have been in bed at that time. There is no blood on his side, the blood on the carpet was from June who apparently had been walking around the bed bleeding. None from Nevill in the bedroom, which is strange.
Then there is the problem with the casings, I can see that.
______________________________________

About the Haldol - there is a reason it is recommended never to cut down the dosage drastically without monitoring, and of course there is a difference between 200mg and 100mg, that is self evident!

[maggie]

Greater risk of what? Jeremy had removed the phone. He was in the doorway with a gun at night time. He had the element of suprise and a gun, he couldn't kill his Dad in the bed because of the staged phone call.

You've argued in the past that Neville was elderly and frail, wouldn't have been able to fight of Sheila because she had the gun.

But now he stands a chance against Jeremy.

I have never argued Nevill was elderly and frail, have always said Nevill had the greatest reach, was taller than Jeremy and fit for his age.  I have always believed if Nevill was beaten with the gun it was after he had been shot and sitting down.  He would have to have been lower than his assailant for him to be bludgeoned in the face the way he was whether it was done by Sheila or Jeremy.
I cannot see the logic in shooting the lesser threat before the greater threat if both June and Nevill were sleeping, I mean he was a sitting target, why take the chance of alerting Nevill by shooting June when a few shots to Nevill's head would have put him out of action if it hadn't killed him outright then June would have been easy to deal with.  I am sure if Jeremy had taken a year to plan the attack he would surely have reached the conclusion Nevill needed taking out first if at all possible..... doesn't make sense. There may have been a reason why June was shot first but I don't accept June was shot first simply because she was nearer the door or that it made no difference who was shot first, because it obviously did.

[scipio_usmc]

I cannot accept that anyone wanting to shoot the whole family given a choice between the two would shoot June before Nevill. 
Surely Nevill was the main threat to an assassin and it would be in his/her interest to put him out of action first?  Shooting June first would have alerted Nevill and put the shooter at greater risk?

The evidence establishes that is what happened.  June was shot first while she was still in bed while Nevill was shot sitting on the bed or as he was rising. Jeremy did that for a calculated reason, his plan featured pretending Nevill phoned him with a distress call.  This fake call was to give him an alibi and simultaneously to falsely implicate Sheila thus assisting in framing her.  He had 10 rounds in the gun and though that was more than sufficient to kill both of them, he ended up not targeting Nevill as effectively as he anticipated and thus was wrong.  He didn't miss him though he ended up causing severe enough damage that he was able to beat Nevill without being injured in any way during the struggle.  In no small part that is due to Nevill's left arm being severely impaired by the gunshot wound. If not for that wound things could have turned out differently.  Jeremy could have ended up having to flee without completing his mission.  Nevill's inability to speak though would have inhibited calling for help. It is thus hard to predict the exact outcome.

Jeremy was convinced he would be able to kill them all and he was right about that part. The unanticipated problems he faced didn't stop him. The fact they were unanticipated says it all he expected to be able to kill both in the bedroom with 10 shots.
 


 

[guest154]

I have never argued Nevill was elderly and frail, have always said Nevill had the greatest reach, was taller than Jeremy and fit for his age.  I have always believed if Nevill was beaten with the gun it was after he had been shot and sitting down.  He would have to have been lower than his assailant for him to be bludgeoned in the face the way he was whether it was done by Sheila or Jeremy.
I cannot see the logic in shooting the lesser threat before the greater threat if both June and Nevill were sleeping, I mean he was a sitting target, why take the chance of alerting Nevill by shooting June when a few shots to Nevill's head would have put him out of action if it hadn't killed him outright then June would have been easy to deal with.  I am sure if Jeremy had taken a year to plan the attack he would surely have reached the conclusion Nevill needed taking out first if at all possible..... doesn't make sense. There may have been a reason why June was shot first but I don't accept June was shot first simply because she was nearer the door or that it made no difference who was shot first, because it obviously did.

Well you're entitled to your opinion, but the evidence shows June was shot first.

[susan]

That is what I think too. I have a hard time seeing Jeremy having had the nerve to calculate that he had to shoot Nevill after he got out of bed because he needed the phone "alibi" - which by the way was no alibi anyway.
Cannot see him taking such a risk.

Maggie it would have all happened so quickly and Jeremy would be stood in the bedroom door and he needed Ralph on his feet so as he could use the phone call alibi.  Jeremy was the one with the advantage he was holding a loaded rifle and I guess Ralph and June would have been awoken suddenly and would not grasp what was happening at first. Jeremy is still using this as his alibi .

[guest154]

Maggie it would have all happened so quickly and Jeremy would be stood in the bedroom door and he needed Ralph on his feet so as he could use the phone call alibi.  Jeremy was the one with the advantage he was holding a loaded rifle and I guess Ralph and June would have been awoken suddenly and would not grasp what was happening at first. Jeremy is still using this as his alibi .

This is how I see it too. Doesn't seem like a risk for Jeremy to shoot June first. He had a gun... he could do what he wanted.

[maggie]

That is what I think too. I have a hard time seeing Jeremy having had the nerve to calculate that he had to shoot Nevill after he got out of bed because he needed the phone "alibi" - which by the way was no alibi anyway.
Cannot see him taking such a risk.

I agree Alias, it would have been ridiculously foolhardy for anyone to take such an unnecessary risk.  It was a big enough risk at the best of times without making things even worse imo

[Alias]

Why couldn´t Jeremy have made up a phone call "alibi" (wasn´t even an alibi) where it was June that called him? He could as easily have done that and shot Nevill first.
It doesn´t really make sense what is being put forward here.