Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on October 17, 2012, 09:17:PM
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Gases and residue from the firing of the rifle were found on the left hand side of Sheila Caffells nightdress, a feature not reported on, which strongly suggests she fired the rifle on several occasions...
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Well we know that she didn't use her nightdress to polish the rifle and its parts,as indeed it was used in aggression,as in a frenzied shooting.
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Well we know that she didn't use her nightdress to polish the rifle and its parts,as indeed it was used in aggression,as in a frenzied shooting.
This from a woman who couldn't drive,couldn't pour boiling water into a cup to make tea,couldn't put beans on toast,yet reloaded a rifle twice without so much as cracking a nail..
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This from a woman who couldn't drive,couldn't pour boiling water into a cup to make tea,couldn't put beans on toast,yet reloaded a rifle twice without so much as cracking a nail..
Steve,she hadn't had her quota of medication,as that tends to make you " zombie-like ". Instead,she'd had a spliff or two to give her dutch courage.
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Steve,she hadn't had her quota of medication,as that tends to make you " zombie-like ". Instead,she'd had a spliff or two to give her dutch courage.
Jeremy was also using cannabis heavily from Christmas 1984. It's strange that there are gases left on Sheila's nightie,yet her hands have been conveniently washed for the Defence leaving them with barely a trace of lead on her hands..
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Jeremy was also using cannabis heavily from Christmas 1984. It's strange that there are gases left on Sheila's nightie,yet her hands have been conveniently washed for the Defence leaving them with barely a trace of lead on her hands..
That was a year before the murders. It may have been new to him then,,but he'd have slowed down on the cannabis,especially if he was using farming equipment which you have to have a steady hand and head for. Sheila would have washed blood and all sorts off her hands anyway,before she ate supper 3 hours before her death,after the killings. " The Last Supper " scenario.
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Jeremy was also using cannabis heavily from Christmas 1984. It's strange that there are gases left on Sheila's nightie,yet her hands have been conveniently washed for the Defence leaving them with barely a trace of lead on her hands..
Brass cases - it is relatively easy to pick up rounds without actually touching any lead at all. Easier still to load such rounds into the ammunition magazine of a rifle like the Pargeter rifle, or the Bamber rifle, without touching any lead component part of a .22 round...
What amazes me - is why no one commissioned tests to see if it was possible for someone like Sheila to pick up indivual rounds and load them into the ammunition magazine, from rounds tipped out of a box onto a worktop, without any trace of lead at all being transferred from the brass bullet cases onto Sheila' s Hands? I suspect that if such tests had been done, or even at this late stage get done, it will give a far better insight into whether or not it was possible for Sheila to have handled bullets at all...
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That was a year before the murders. It may have been new to him then,,but he'd have slowed down on the cannabis,especially if he was using farming equipment which you have to have a steady hand and head for. Sheila would have washed blood and all sorts off her hands anyway,before she ate supper 3 hours before her death,after the killings. " The Last Supper " scenario.
Well make your mind up-I thought it was the Feast of the Transfiguration she was supposed to be celebrating. Jeremy was heavy on cannabis which was just one more factor in this deadly cocktail of drugs,with Ann Eaton noticing Jeremy's heavily dilated pupils that Wednesday morning at Goldhanger,with whatever central nervous system stimulant that was caused by..
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Brass cases - it is relatively easy to pick up rounds without actually touching any lead at all. Easier still to load such rounds into the ammunition magazine of a rifle like the Pargeter rifle, or the Bamber rifle, without touching any lead component part of a .22 round...
What amazes me - is why no one commissioned tests to see if it was possible for someone like Sheila to pick up indivual rounds and load them into the ammunition magazine, from rounds tipped out of a box onto a worktop, without any trace of lead at all being transferred from the brass bullet cases onto Sheila' s Hands? I suspect that if such tests had been done, or even at this late stage get done, it will give a far better insight into whether or not it was possible for Sheila to have handled bullets at all...
Tests carried out by prosecution volunteers to pick up bullets and load them into the magazine of the rifle, involved such volunteers picking up individual rounds by the lead part of the rounds in question, and whilst loading them into the guns ammunition magazine, these were pressed/forced in by exerting the fingers on the exposed lead part of the bullet...
Bearing this in mind, you would expect to find traces of lead upon the hands and fingers of the volunteer who undertook or performed such tests in that/this manner - but imagine if that same volunteer had been instructed to pick up individual rounds without any contact at all with the lead part of a/the round, and load each one into the ammuniwion magazine of the same gun without touching any lead of/in the round, so that bullets were only loaded and pressed into position inside the ammunition magazine, only touching the brass caes, or brass lip/rim of each round, you would get a totally different set of results than those obtained, and what is more, these different results would be in keeping eith the very low levels of lead actually found upon the swabs taken from Sheila's hands...
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Tests carried out by prosecution volunteers to pick up bullets and load them into the magazine of the rifle, involved such volunteers picking up individual rounds by the lead part of the rounds in question, and whilst loading them into the guns ammunition magazine, these were pressed/forced in by exerting the fingers on the exposed lead part of the bullet...
Bearing this in mind, you would expect to find traces of lead upon the hands and fingers of the volunteer who undertook or performed such tests in that/this manner - but imagine if that same volunteer had been instructed to pick up individual rounds without any contact at all with the lead part of a/the round, and load each one into the ammuniwion magazine of the same gun without touching any lead of/in the round, so that bullets were only loaded and pressed into position inside the ammunition magazine, only touching the brass caes, or brass lip/rim of each round, you would get a totally different set of results than those obtained, and what is more, these different results would be in keeping eith the very low levels of lead actually found upon the swabs taken from Sheila's hands...
..and yet only one fingerprint of Sheila's found on the murder weapon whilst in this state of psychosis,and no prints on the ammunition,along with the hidden telephone under a pile of magazines in the kitchen.
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Well make your mind up-I thought it was the Feast of the Transfiguration she was supposed to be celebrating. Jeremy was heavy on cannabis which was just one more factor in this deadly cocktail of drugs,with Ann Eaton noticing Jeremy's heavily dilated pupils that Wednesday morning at Goldhanger,with whatever central nervous system stimulant that was caused by..
Steve won't let you get away with that. Jeremy had been up most of the night and hadn't eaten and he would therefore no doubt have had low blood sugar. Low blood sugar causes dilated pupils. Far more likely to have been the reason imo
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..and yet only one fingerprint of Sheila's found on the murder weapon whilst in this state of psychosis,and no prints on the ammunition,along with the hidden telephone under a pile of magazines in the kitchen.
Steve...how do you know the telephone was hidden, it could quite easily have been placed on top of the magazines and fallen down behind them.
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Steve won't let you get away with that. Jeremy had been up most of the night and hadn't eaten and he would therefore no doubt have had low blood sugar. Low blood sugar causes dilated pupils. Far more likely to have been the reason imo
STEVE, I have seen you post this before and ignore my answering post. Anne Eaton would not know it but I assure you this is true...nothing sinister..Jeremy just needed his breakfast..you know the breakfast the police told him he needed to eat.
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Steve won't let you get away with that. Jeremy had been up most of the night and hadn't eaten and he would therefore no doubt have had low blood sugar. Low blood sugar causes dilated pupils. Far more likely to have been the reason imo
Yes,he then pretended to be sick on nothing,then hours later gets his appetite back and gets the frying pan going,as appetite increase is a classic symptom of cannabis misuse.
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..and yet only one fingerprint of Sheila's found on the murder weapon whilst in this state of psychosis,and no prints on the ammunition,along with the hidden telephone under a pile of magazines in the kitchen.
Many of the fingerprints found on the anshulz rifle were smudged - many of which could have been Sheila's fingerprints - it is not suprising that so many of the unchecked/smudged fingerprints were not or did not get developed, considering the number of occasions after police entered the farmhouse the rifle was handled by police officers without any of them wearing gloves on all the occasions the rifle in question was moved onto the body, off the body, onto the body, off the body and back onto the body, in time for PC Bird to come along and photograph the rifle on Sheila's body at a time when the fingers of her right hand, and the palm of the same hand, resting upon the metal plate and ammunition magazine of the gun, from which none of Sheila's fingerprints were found - how utterly ridiculous that Sheila's right hand is photographed on two very crucial parts of the rifle, yet none of Sheila's fingerprints were found there at eithet location/position...
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Yes,he then pretended to be sick on nothing,then hours later gets his appetite back and gets the frying pan going,as appetite increase is a classic symptom of cannabis misuse.
You have no proof that is the case. Anyone can wretch when they are in a traumatic state and anyway tht was earlier on which may have meant he got rid of anything left in his stomach. Later he would have been hypoglycemic. The true story, not the embroidered novelette type story was that the police told him he must eat and all he had in the fridge was a few peices of bacon. The fact that later he may have smoked some cannabis is not surprising as it would have taken the edge off the trauma and may even have made him laugh but what of it if he was a bit stoned later in the morning..bet the poor guy needed it. He would have been hungry because he hadn't eaten...nothing to do with the cannabis, poor argument Steve. imo
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STEVE, I have seen you post this before and ignore my answering post. Anne Eaton would not know it but I assure you this is true...nothing sinister..Jeremy just needed his breakfast..you know the breakfast the police told him he needed to eat.
But it was his manner that morning in front of the Police as if all had been done and dusted. This was picked up again at various points after the murders by the relatives and Colin.
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You have no proof that is the case. Anyone can wretch when they are in a traumatic state and anyway tht was earlier on which may have meant he got rid of anything left in his stomach. Later he would have been hypoglycemic. The true story, not the embroidered novelette type story was that the police told him he must eat and all he had in the fridge was a few peices of bacon. The fact that later he may have smoked some cannabis is not surprising as it would have taken the edge off the trauma and may even have made him laugh but what of it if he was a bit stoned later in the morning..bet the poor guy needed it. He would have been hungry because he hadn't eaten...nothing to do with the cannabis, poor argument Steve. imo
I'm not saying Jeremy is guilty because he cooked himself breakfast,but his manner in front of the Police always was synonymous with the recent Andrew Mitchell MP case;that they were plebs whom Jeremy could outwit at every turn.
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A round has a brass case, and lead bullet, if you only touch brass you cannot get a result for lead, unless you handle lead - prove that nobody could handle/load rounds into gun without there being any traces of lead on the hands/fingers?
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I'm not saying Jeremy is guilty because he cooked himself breakfast,but his manner in front of the Police always was synonymous with the recent Andrew Mitchell MP case;that they were plebs whom Jeremy could outwit at every turn.
Hi Steve...What are you trying to say then? People do unusual thing when they have been beavered..Not everyone sits and cries... :( :(
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I'm not saying Jeremy is guilty because he cooked himself breakfast,but his manner in front of the Police always was synonymous with the recent Andrew Mitchell MP case;that they were plebs whom Jeremy could outwit at every turn.
How do you know that Steve, it's the same old story, you don't know how he acted or what he was like. Some may have liked him, some not, surely it depends who you speak to. Different people have diffrent takes on people imo.
I would say Andrew Mitchell was a pratt rather than a murderer ;D ;D
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But it was his manner that morning in front of the Police as if all had been done and dusted. This was picked up again at various points after the murders by the relatives and Colin.
Well the relatives picked up what suited them I should imagine. Once they decided Jeremy had done it, it's easy to pick stuff up and convince yourself of the meaning and Colin probably really didn't want Sheila to have killed his boys and he would find it much easier to blame Jeremy and be angry with him. It may have helped him to deal. imo
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Hi Steve...What are you trying to say then? People do unusual thing when they have been beavered..Not everyone sits and cries... :( :(
Leaving aside the witness statements which have been quoted ad nauseum on this site it's the general demeanour of Jeremy that first morning as if he didn't know how to grieve(Colin Caffell picked up on this point in his book)because he felt no loss whatsoever. Before anyone says we all grieve in a different way well that's fine,as long as Jeremy says "I didn't like my family but I didn't kill them" instead of 27 years later going through the charade that he talks to each one of the five family members on a daily basis inside his prison cell at Full Sutton prison.
We all know there was part of Jeremy who liked to be the centre of attention and again there's nothing intrinsically wrong with this,but as soon as Jeremy is picked up on errors in his statement that first Wednesday morning he starts to clam up,avoids the relatives as much as possible at the funerals and elsewhere and answers the Police's questions in subsequent interviews in September 1985 in monotones,pulling threads from his jumper and chewing them between his teeth,answering "no comment" to the most dangerous lines of questioning as to the telephone calls to Julie and whether he had worn gloves whilst shooting the rabbits on the Tuesday evening,when any innocent person would have stayed all day with Police to clear up such relatively simple matters.
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Well the relatives picked up what suited them I should imagine. Once they decided Jeremy had done it, it's easy to pick stuff up and convince yourself of the meaning and Colin probably really didn't want Sheila to have killed his boys and he would find it much easier to blame Jeremy and be angry with him. It may have helped him to deal. imo
Well Sheila may well have been difficult to live with which is why Colin left her-nobody is claiming that Sheila was a well woman,just that she was a naive and simple creature,gullible and easily-led,which is what put the evil murder plot into Jeremy's head in the first place.
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Leaving aside the witness statements which have been quoted ad nauseum on this site it's the general demeanour of Jeremy that first morning as if he didn't know how to grieve(Colin Caffell picked up on this point in his book)because he felt no loss whatsoever. Before anyone says we all grieve in a different way well that's fine,as long as Jeremy says "I didn't like my family but I didn't kill them" instead of 27 years later going through the charade that he talks to each one of the five family members on a daily basis inside his prison cell at Full Sutton prison.
We all know there was part of Jeremy who liked to be the centre of attention and again there's nothing intrinsically wrong with this,but as soon as Jeremy is picked up on errors in his statement that first Wednesday morning he starts to clam up,avoids the relatives as much as possible at the funerals and elsewhere and answers the Police's questions in subsequent interviews in September 1985 in monotones,pulling threads from his jumper and chewing them between his teeth,answering "no comment" to the most dangerous lines of questioning as to the telephone calls to Julie and whether he had worn gloves whilst shooting the rabbits on the Tuesday evening,when any innocent person would have stayed all day with Police to clear up such relatively simple matters.
I don't know how you can say he avoided the relatives Steve. He had no option but, to endure them, at a time when they were watching his every single movement.
Was it not Jeremy who bought AE flowers? Was it not Jeremy who wanted to pay for all the funerals, Was is not Jeremy who paid for Colin and his friends to dine out after the tragedies, was is not Jeremy who went round to console AE, was is not Jeremy who gave Julie £400 pounds for her birthday after they had parted, because he wanted to keep his promise to her, was it not Jeremy who was invited into his own house by those who plotted against him, was it not Jeremy who had to do all the running about, was it not Jeremy who was on the mind of AE when notified of the tragedy..Why not HIM??...Was it not Jeremy AE checked for bruising or marks on his arms...Jeremy Jeremy Jeremy....Sounds like a song doesn't it lol :) :) :) :)
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There was no physical contact with any of the victims apart from when Jeremy placed a feeble Sheila's finger around the rifle. Jeremy had a few scratches on the palm of his hand but covered himself by showing these to David Boutflour on the morning of the murders.
The victims were just a means to an end,and the relatives just one more inconvenience as Jeremy saw it blocking his way to his inheritance,to be endured as long enough as it took before he could put distance between them.
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There was no physical contact with any of the victims apart from when Jeremy placed a feeble Sheila's finger around the rifle. Jeremy had a few scratches on the palm of his hand but covered himself by showing these to David Boutflour on the morning of the murders.
The victims were just a means to an end,and the relatives just one more inconvenience as Jeremy saw it blocking his way to his inheritance,to be endured as long enough as it took before he could put distance between them.
No no no no no no no....Do you write for Jackonary? lol :) :) :) :)
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No no no no no no no....Do you write for Jackonary? lol :) :) :) :)
Well if the Jackanory clip is posted again I will reciprocate with the Magic Roundabout..
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Well if the Jackanory clip is posted again I will reciprocate with the Magic Roundabout..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNxw1l5SZ6s
hahahahahahaha
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For me the most interesting item in the attachment Mike has included in the first post in the thread is as follows;
Heat of muzzle end of barrel - cause burns?
Was this not the subject of the latest TV documentary which was broadcast just prior to the decision of the CCRC.
Is there anything more available in terms of the resulting conclusions from the apparent inquiries that, one presumes, were made at the time?
Is the date as recorded on the contemporaneous notes for the meeting 18/9/85?
Any other suggestions / interpretations for the date as detailed on the top of the notes?
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For me the most interesting item in the attachment Mike has included in the first post in the thread is as follows;
Heat of muzzle end of barrel - cause burns?
Was this not the subject of the latest TV documentary which was broadcast just prior to the decision of the CCRC.
Is there anything more available in terms of the resulting conclusions from the apparent inquiries that, one presumes, were made at the time?
Is the date as recorded on the contemporaneous notes for the meeting 18/9/85?
Any other suggestions / interpretations for the date as detailed on the top of the notes?
Hi curious the burns to Nevill I assume you're referring to remain a mystery. The last thing I read the guns barrel could not be heated to a high enough point in order to cause them.
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This from a woman who couldn't drive,couldn't pour boiling water into a cup to make tea,couldn't put beans on toast,yet reloaded a rifle twice without so much as cracking a nail..
Steve we have been here many times but she could put on her make up, put on her nail varnish to fingers and toes or maybe stick on false nails not that easy, if I remember rightly...and no doubt anything else to beautify herself., roll a ciggie...well I always found that difficult. So if she could do all that she could reload a rifle as well as Jeremy. imo
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Steve we have been here many times but she could put on her make up, put on her nail varnish to fingers and toes or maybe stick on false nails not that easy, if I remember rightly...and no doubt anything else to beautify herself., roll a ciggie...well I always found that difficult. So if she could do all that she could reload a rifle as well as Jeremy. imo
Don't forget the false eyelashes, Maggie :) :) :)
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Steve we have been here many times but she could put on her make up, put on her nail varnish to fingers and toes or maybe stick on false nails not that easy, if I remember rightly...and no doubt anything else to beautify herself., roll a ciggie...well I always found that difficult. So if she could do all that she could reload a rifle as well as Jeremy. imo
Strange isn't it Maggie that JB forgot to mess up Sheila's nails before he left? He didn't even bother to press her fingers all over the gun after he cleaned it. Strange that. ::)
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Hi curious the burns to Nevill I assume you're referring to remain a mystery. The last thing I read the guns barrel could not be heated to a high enough point in order to cause them.
Hi Steve
For me, what is interesting is that this is being considered by EP at the material time. Maybe EP were considering if the gun was used with or without a silencer fitted in order to rule the silencer in or the silencer out of the equation. I note Taff Jones is recorded as being present at the meeting and Taff Jones was the exponent of the murder suicide theory. As such questions were being asked and noted with his full knowledge and not behind his back.
The other thing to bare in mind is that this is also being noted whilst EP are allegedly trying to frame Jeremy and allegedly trying to set up witnesses.
Additionally, I thought grounds for appeal via the CCRC route would have to be on the basis of new evidence.
With a copy of these notes clearly not being withheld under PII and a copy being with the defence how can the recent experiments be considered as new evidence? In any event surely this point of argument should have been raised by the defence at the original trial.
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Hi curious the burns to Nevill I assume you're referring to remain a mystery. The last thing I read the guns barrel could not be heated to a high enough point in order to cause them.
That is not the case. Firing the rifle would not in itself cause the end of the barrel to be heated sufficiently, but the application of an additional heat source could.
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Steve we have been here many times but she could put on her make up, put on her nail varnish to fingers and toes or maybe stick on false nails not that easy, if I remember rightly...and no doubt anything else to beautify herself., roll a ciggie...well I always found that difficult. So if she could do all that she could reload a rifle as well as Jeremy. imo
No they are completely different tasks. That particular rifle was stiff and jammed anyway on the morning of the murders making it most unlikely Sheila's nails would have remained intact.
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No they are completely different tasks. That particular rifle was stiff and jammed anyway on the morning of the murders making it most unlikely Sheila's nails would have remained intact.
I rather imagine, given the extreme flimsiness of the materials involved, that more dexterity is required to correctly place false eyelashes or roll ciggies, than is needed to load a gun'
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The marks would have been made with a cigar butt before being thrown into the fire. As a cigar has burnt down,it has the same propensity as the end of a poker which has been heated. And the circumference of the marks/wounds dictate that.
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No they are completely different tasks. That particular rifle was stiff and jammed anyway on the morning of the murders making it most unlikely Sheila's nails would have remained intact.
I have never read before that the gun "jammed" on that morning? Could you direct me to the source of you information please Steve?
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This from a woman who couldn't drive,couldn't pour boiling water into a cup to make tea,couldn't put beans on toast,yet reloaded a rifle twice without so much as cracking a nail..
She helped Colin prepare the food etc. for the twins party on the previous Saturday - You have read Colin's book but I have never seen you quite this particular incident.
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She helped Colin prepare the food etc. for the twins party on the previous Saturday - You have read Colin's book but I have never seen you quite this particular incident.
If the information came from the relatives could I remind members that most of that side of the family had not been to WHF since Christmas of that same year. So I'm not sure where that information of Steve's came from?
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If the information came from the relatives could I remind members that most of that side of the family had not been to WHF since Christmas of that same year. So I'm not sure where that information of Steve's came from?
Exactly Lugg, Colin also states that he "was shocked" by how little the relatives knew about Sheila and her illness.
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I have never read before that the gun "jammed" on that morning? Could you direct me to the source of you information please Steve?
Two indications:an empty cartridge case was found suggesting that the gun hadn't fired,and one of the raid team broke a nail trying re-enact loading the anschutz.
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I do believe that the rifle had malfunctioned whilst being test fired by Fletcher, due to mishandling.
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Two indications:an empty cartridge case was found suggesting that the gun hadn't fired,and one of the raid team broke a nail trying re-enact loading the anschutz.
Do you mean an unspent cartridge? Also, I believe it was someone at the lab who broke a nail, not one of the raid team.
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Do you mean an unspent cartridge? Also, I believe it was someone at the lab who broke a nail, not one of the raid team.
You are right Bridget....2-2 Ha! :) :)
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You are right Bridget....2-2 Ha! :) :)
It comes to something when you have to rely on me to score your points for you.. ;)
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It comes to something when you have to rely on me to score your points for you.. ;)
Nice to see you Bridget, it was a plot to make you come out to play.... :) :) :) :)
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Nice to see you Bridget, it was a plot to make you come out to play.... :) :) :) :)
Ah... and I fell for it.. :)
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Ah... and I fell for it.. :)
By jove,Bridget,you're losing the touch. ;D
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By jove,Bridget,you're losing the touch. ;D
Now I know she loves me....lol :) :) :) :)
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Well now that you have me what do you have planned for me, or shouldn't I ask? :)
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Well now that you have me what do you have planned for me, or shouldn't I ask? :)
Folk could take that as being something else Ooh la la! ....Anyway, I am off to bed now are you coming? Ha! :) :) :) :)
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Folk could take that as being something else Ooh la la! ....Anyway, I am off to bed now are you coming? Ha! :) :) :) :)
I won't be far behind you - that's for sure!
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Two indications:an empty cartridge case was found suggesting that the gun hadn't fired,and one of the raid team broke a nail trying re-enact loading the anschutz.
Ouch! That'll teach him to keep his nails cut. Erm, I'm confused? How does an empty cartridge case indicate that the gun had not fired? If the cartridge case was empty is had no bullet in it, than that means surely that it HAD fired? Please explain Steve.
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Ouch! That'll teach him to keep his nails cut. Erm, I'm confused? How does an empty cartridge case indicate that the gun had not fired? If the cartridge case was empty is had no bullet in it, than that means surely that it HAD fired? Please explain Steve.
A shell had been found at a point in the house where no shot had been fired. The murder weapon also jammed for ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher under the eyes of the jury at Fingringhoe Ranges,25 miles from Chelmsford.
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Ah... and I fell for it.. :)
Watch out for the gals in heights of abraham land they are tricky , ready to fool ya...
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A shell had been found at a point in the house where no shot had been fired. The murder weapon also jammed for ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher under the eyes of the jury at Fingringhoe Ranges,25 miles from Chelmsford.
I've been to Fingringhoe ranges. Gotta keep your head down as you drive through it. I don't trust the red flag proceedure. ;D
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A round has a brass case, and lead bullet, if you only touch brass you cannot get a result for lead, unless you handle lead - prove that nobody could handle/load rounds into gun without there being any traces of lead on the hands/fingers?
Who's to say the ammo used in the shootings was not eley sub-sonic? but high-velocity rounds were the bullet is copper plated. Since my last laptop died, I will have to re-build my research over again! :(
There is a log, stating high-speed loads were used in one magazine 10shots? and eleys, and the EP came back to the scene to remove the eley subs to false evidence against Jeremy?
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Who's to say the ammo used in the shootings was not eley sub-sonic? but high-velocity rounds were the bullet is copper plated. Since my last laptop died, I will have to re-build my research over again! :(
Oh hardluck PB you had loads of stuff about the bullets etc. ;D
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Who's to say the ammo used in the shootings was not eley sub-sonic? but high-velocity rounds were the bullet is copper plated. Since my last laptop died, I will have to re-build my research over again! :(
There is a log, stating high-speed loads were used in one magazine 10shots? and eleys, and the EP came back to the scene to remove the eley subs to false evidence against Jeremy?
I think I can say with certainty that they were all lead. I was hoping they were cooper..:(
:) :) :) :)
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We not to know about the bullets because the wern't all removed!! as soon the bodies were gone, the case changed to murder!! :( :( :( :(
Oh patti they are lead but with a .005 thick copper coating which wear of in the barrel as a high speed lube :P :P
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We not to know about the bullets because the wern't all removed!! as soon the bodies were gone, the case changed to murder!! :( :( :( :(
Oh patti they are lead but with a .005 thick copper coating which wear of in the barrel as a high speed lube :P :P
I don't think they were PB...I know what you mean though, sometimes they have a copper coating on the lead....also brass...Now you are making me not sure. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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(http://1.2.3.10/bmi/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/CCI_Mini-Mag_Rounds.jpg/676px-CCI_Mini-Mag_Rounds.jpg)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4348;image)
(http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/3/569/large-eley-22lr-subsonic-50-rounds.jpg)
There is a document on here somewhere which 10 rounds where .22lr HV Soilds! which looks like the top ones :) the Eley Sub-sonic Has Bullet lube (paffin wax) to protect the lead from oxidizing.
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Does this help: Not sure what I am looking for but if what you are saying is true, then the tests should have been made with the exact bullets used, which could have made the nozzle hotter?
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Nope not that one, it's another log.
it shows which PV and changes of the references used? and which bullet hit who!
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Something like this????
one - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
two - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
three - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
four - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
five - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
six - double magazine mark (Daniel Caffell) - childrens bedroom (fatal)
seven - double magazine mark (Nicholas Caffell) - childrens bedroom (fatal)
eight - double magazine mark (Ralph Bamber) - kitchen (non fatal)
nine - double magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (fatal)
ten - double magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (fatal)
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First ten (10) Bullets (b)
one - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
two - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
three - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
four - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
five - single magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (non fatal)
six - double magazine mark (Daniel Caffell) - childrens bedroom (fatal)
seven - double magazine mark (Nicholas Caffell) - childrens bedroom (fatal)
eight - double magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (fatal)
nine - double magazine mark (June Bamber) - main bedroom (fatal)
Ten - double magazine mark (Ralph Bamber) - Kitchen (non fatal)
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That is not the case. Firing the rifle would not in itself cause the end of the barrel to be heated sufficiently, but the application of an additional heat source could.
If the rifle had been stuck into the AGA (hypothetically), wouldn´t it have had blackening/discoloration on the tip? Try burning a piece of metal - it turns black in my experience. Maybe that is not the case for all metals, i don´t know.
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don't worry I find it soon! :) its similar to that yes! I think this report was done at the time of the autopsies! But the firearms expert need a batch of ammo from the scene, so the bullets in plain sight in the kitchen table was used!
Yes these bullets were used, But I feel 10 bullets was used were high speed loads that was record.
But that report could of been confused with high point or hollow point!! but it was recorded as soild bullets too :-\
I seen my old post!
DRH/15 deemed "missing" but high volcity load.
DRH/35 pillow main bedroom, high volcity rounds
PV/2 Ralph left arm, High volcity rounds
PV/24 june right side of spine, High volcity rounds
DRH/5 nr dressing table, high volcity rounds
DRH/36 rh edge of left bed (twins Room), high volcity rounds
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don't worry I find it soon! :) its similar to that yes! I think this report was done at the time of the autopsies! But the firearms expert need a batch of ammo from the scene, so the bullets in plain sight in the kitchen table was used!
Yes these bullets were used, But I feel 10 bullets was used were high speed loads that was record.
But that report could of been confused with high point or hollow point!! but it was recorded as soild bullets too :-\
I seen my old post!
DRH/15 deemed "missing" but high volcity load.
DRH/35 pillow main bedroom, high volcity rounds
PV/2 Ralph left arm, High volcity rounds
PV/24 june right side of spine, High volcity rounds
DRH/5 nr dressing table, high volcity rounds
DRH/36 rh edge of left bed (twins Room), high volcity rounds
It is not possible to give a description of PV2....because that wound fig8 is an exit wound and the bullet was never found....Vanezes said it had fragmented into his chest cavity, but he fails to say how it entered the chest....there are no more entry wounds on NB's body..... :-\
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Gases and residue from the firing of the rifle were found on the left hand side of Sheila Caffells nightdress, a feature not reported on, which strongly suggests she fired the rifle on several occasions...
so was SC left-handed ? also as SC was 'supposed' to have commited suicide wouldnt there be residue on the front of her nightie too ?
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so was SC left-handed ? also as SC was 'supposed' to have commited suicide wouldnt there be residue on the front of her nightie too ?
I should think that would be so even if someone else had shot her surely?
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found it!
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=773.0;attach=25930;image)
who write this report!? or findings.... .22lr High Velocity round "soilds" not hollow points... the thin copper plated lead .22lr are high velocity?
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found it!
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=773.0;attach=25930;image)
who write this report!? or findings.... .22lr High Velocity round "soilds" not hollow points... the thin copper plated lead .22lr are high velocity?
Either Mike or possibly the old MacKenzie group. It's a theory by others and not an official document.
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Comes from this thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,773.0.html
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SHELL CASES/SPENT BULLETS
Main Bedroom
DRH 1 Sheila (Bullet Case)
DRH 2 Sheila (Bullet Case)
DRH 3 Inside door of main bedroom on the right side. (Bullet Case)
DRH 4 Next to DRH 3 (Bullet Case)
DRH 5 Inside door, right hand side near dressing table (BULLET)
DRH 6 Top of quilt right side of bed (Bullet Case)
DRH 7 Under Wardrobe (TWO Bullet Cases)
DRH 8 Left hand side of bed near pillow (Bullet Case)
DRH 9 Left hand side of pillow 4 inches from DRH 8 (BULLET)
DRH 10 Right hand side on the floor, next to bed. (Bullet Case)
DRH 11 Next to Wardrobe (Bullet Case)
DRH 12 Right side of bed on the floor (Bullet Case)
DRH 13 On metal strip leading to landing on the right side. (Bullet Case)
DRH 35 Found in Pillow (TWO BULLETS)
DRH 43 under wardrobe main bedroom right hand side. (Bullet Case)
Total 14 Bullets in the main bedroom, from a magazine that only takes 10, with one in the breech. ? (Bullet Case)
KITCHEN
DRH 19 Kitchen table (Bullet Case)
DRH 41 Kitchen floor under the table (Bullet Case)
DRH 20 Under mat near kitchen sink near Nevill's watch. (Bullet Case)
T/ROOM
DRH 36 Found on floor. (BULLET)
DRH 37 (Bullet Case)
DRH 38 (Bullet Case)
DRH 39 (TWO BULLET CASES)
DRH 40 (Bullet Case)
DRH 34 (BULLET)
DRH 16 (Bullet Case)
DRH 17 (Bullet Case)
DRH 18 (Bullet Case)
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PV 2 weight 37.45 left shoulder virtually intact virtually intact on one side, whole, flattened. 2 feet away in a downward position.
PV 3 weight 29.72 1.968 grms strongly suggestive being from (18) This bullet was a head shot , fwd to the ear left temperal. It nose of the bullet was extensively damaged. fired within a couple of inches
Pv4 weight 32.28 2.0999grms top of the back of the skull bullet as whole. But then goes on to report the bullet was badly mushroomed. Suggestive as being fired from (18)
PV5 According to Vanezes is a fragment form the left hand side jaw of NB.
From the General examination record it is known as PV5/11 although it is a fragment form another bullet, Fletcher says it is nearly whole. However, on a different record he clearly states it is a small fragment unable to match up if it came from (18) (Why weren't these fragments matched up)
It is fig. 6 on the diagram (drawing can be viewed in the photo section in the archives)
? Which bullet did this fragment belong too. We see two shots to the jaw of NB but it is obvious fig 6 is not a shot it is a fragment. Thus making shots fired to NB as being 7.
It appears that this fragment is quite heavy, yet Fletcher claims it was small.....? Nearly as heavy as PV3 which was nearly whole.
PV8 Weight 25.12 1.63grms. Found in left hand side of skull see fig 3 This bullet was flattened and was mushroomed Nearly whole. Not able to match if it was fired from (18
PV9 Vanezes describes this as a bullet found in the top of the brain on the left hand side. It has no weight.
Fletcher was able to establish that this fragment had been fired at close range of a couple of inches
PV10 left of neck See fig 5 Fletcher: this bullet/fragment was a piece of badly mangled and distorted lead Fletcher goes on to say it is now half a bullet.....not suitable for matching or testing that it was fired from (18)
PV11 See PV5...
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Just comparing weights..... ::)
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Either Mike or possibly the old MacKenzie group. It's a theory by others and not an official document.
Its Theory that convicted Jeremy of the murders! the invented evidence on the silencer (sound moderator)
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Its Theory that convicted Jeremy of the murders! the invented evidence on the silencer (sound moderator)
i thought the phone call was a bigger reason for his quilt ? even Essex Police were severely critised for ignoring this fact early on in the case
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Its Theory that convicted Jeremy of the murders! the invented evidence on the silencer (sound moderator)
It certainly was PB,,,the blooming thing was pivotal in the case as a whole.
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This from a woman who couldn't drive,couldn't pour boiling water into a cup to make tea,couldn't put beans on toast,yet reloaded a rifle twice without so much as cracking a nail..
Says who? She put nail polish on, she prepared food for the twins party, she rolled a joint!! From the pictures Steve, her nails aren't that long and why you think they would have to crack is beyond me!
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Caroline if the cap fits steve wears it ;D that is why some of his theories are way out ;D
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It certainly was PB,,,the blooming thing was pivotal in the case as a whole.
Personally I think the telephone call was the pivot of the case. Because if you believe he is telling the truth, then he is innocent. But if you believe he is lying, then he must be guilty.. Just my opinion of course.
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Personally I think the telephone call was the pivot of the case. Because if you believe he is telling the truth, then he is innocent. But if you believe he is lying, then he must be guilty.. Just my opinion of course.
Surely that should be... if you can prove he's lying then he's guilty, otherwise he is innocent.
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Without a phone-call to the police,,how would they have known anything was going on.? Particularly as the car going to WHF was a minute or two quicker and came from a different station than the one which Jeremy had rang.? Two different times of calls recorded.
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Surely that should be... if you can prove he's lying then he's guilty, otherwise he is innocent.
Unfortunately, they can't prove it either way (or so they say) - but I very much doubt he would have known that!!
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Without a phone-call to the police,,how would they have known anything was going on.? Particularly as the car going to WHF was a minute or two quicker and came from a different station than the one which Jeremy had rang.? Two different times of calls recorded.
That's what I have been saying. The antis can only come to the conclusions that they do if they alter the times. The pros on the other hand are working with the actual facts here. The times ARE different and to my mind it is far too easy to say that the police "made a mistake" with the times. Anyone could say that if they want to put a different slant on things.
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That's what I have been saying. The antis can only come to the conclusions that they do if they alter the times. The pros on the other hand are working with the actual facts here. The times ARE different and to my mind it is far too easy to say that the police "made a mistake" with the times. Anyone could say that if they want to put a different slant on things.
Wether anti or pro on this matter is everyone missing the point of this whole thread ?
Mike has stated in the opening lines that gas and residue were found on the 'LEFT' side of SC's nightie.... if SC were the killer in the case then are we to think that a righthanded women held and fired a gun useing her left hand ?..... and also has a 100% hit rate at that too :o
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im not a ballistics expert but im sure that when a gun is held by a right handed person the gun is on the right hand side of the body and any residue would be predominately on the right side
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Wether anti or pro on this matter is everyone missing the point of this whole thread ?
Mike has stated in the opening lines that gas and residue were found on the 'LEFT' side of SC's nightie.... if SC were the killer in the case then are we to think that a righthanded women held and fired a gun useing her left hand ?..... and also has a 100% hit rate at that too :o
i cant even hit much with a gun in my right side so cant see me hitting anything if i held a gun on my left side
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i cant even hit much with a gun in my right side so cant see me hitting anything if i held a gun on my left side
BG,,in the right frame of mind,,you'd do it,believe me. You'd suddenly find yourself ambidextrous,no problem.
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oh the magical world of the make believe....
we talking 25/26 bullets all on target from someone use thier opposite hand ?
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another point would be what ive said in the past about choice of gun... i suppose that if you were to hold a 410 or 12gauge shotgun in your opposite side then you may still get an average hit , but a rifle needs a steady hand to be 100% accurate.
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another point would be what ive said in the past about choice of gun... i suppose that if you were to hold a 410 or 12gauge shotgun in your opposite side then you may still get an average hit , but a rifle needs a steady hand to be 100% accurate.
BG,,,I wouldn't have said either hand was steady the way the bullets were pumped into June and Neville.
Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about" lower density" rifles would have " hit the spot " fatally,,,but as it happened,,why so many shots.? Would not a sane person have stopped shooting the minute they realised a person was dead.? Why carry on in the insane manner that took place.?
I don't think that in Jeremys' 24 years,,that he mustered up much energy for work on the farm,let alone go on the rampage in a frenzied shooting spree.
Sheila was an unknown quantity when it came to her capabilities.
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oh the magical world of the make believe....
we talking 25/26 bullets all on target from someone use thier opposite hand ?
Hi BG :)
Please explain what you mean by target? I have this vision of a dart board with the bulls eye in the middle...which is the highest score of 50....all the rest are misses if that is what you are aiming for.
However you stand back about 4ft is it? might be more, could be less...but, the shooter that shot this family were at the most 2 feet away, whoever it was could hardly miss....IMHO... ;) :) :) :) :)
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:) :) :) thoses shots were take at point blank range!! :)
A .22lr semi-auto is very easy to use! even I can hit with a 10p coin sized target at 25yards without telescopic sights!
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:) :) :) thoses shots were take at point blank range!! :)
A .22lr semi-auto is very easy to use! even I can hit with a 10p coin sized target at 25yards without telescopic sights!
You must be a good shot then? I couldn't even see that target myself. :)
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:) :) it was fired from a prone and with arm sling which holds the gun more steady. I give up shooting .22lr shooting now. without the armband & and fast firing I can still hit the target just! some shooters can hit with a 5p coin sized grouping of 5 shots! at 25yards and all bullseye!
They not that loud aswell, a normal interior door was the range door!!! just a loud cap sound was heard from the rifle!! in WHF a solid house with lots of walls and door could easily muffle the gunshots! the semi-auto GSG MP5 was only a little louder.
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:) :) :) thoses shots were take at point blank range!! :)
A .22lr semi-auto is very easy to use! even I can hit with a 10p coin sized target at 25yards without telescopic sights!
Really! :D :D :D :D :D
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:) :) it was fired from a prone and with arm sling which holds the gun more steady. I give up shooting .22lr shooting now. without the armband & and fast firing I can still hit the target just! some shooters can hit with a 5p coin sized grouping of 5 shots! at 25yards and all bullseye!
theres the thing you were in a laying down position , which is how most rifles are designed to be used. in the case of the WHF murders we're to assume that the murderer was carrying the gun and shooting from a standing/walking position and was able to make 100% shots. im not saying its impossible... more improbable.
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Quite plausible if the shots were from a few feet (or less) away.