Author Topic: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...  (Read 12596 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2012, 03:47:PM »
For me the most interesting item in the attachment Mike has included in the first post in the thread is as follows;

Heat of muzzle end of barrel - cause burns?

Was this not the subject of the latest TV documentary which was broadcast just prior to the decision of the CCRC.

Is there anything more available in terms of the resulting conclusions from the apparent inquiries that, one presumes, were made at the time?

Is the date as recorded on the contemporaneous notes for the meeting 18/9/85?

Any other suggestions / interpretations for the date as detailed on the top of the notes?

Hi curious the burns to Nevill I assume you're referring to remain a mystery. The last thing I read the guns barrel could not be heated to a high enough point in order to cause them.

Offline maggie

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2012, 03:51:PM »
This from a woman who couldn't drive,couldn't pour boiling water into a cup to make tea,couldn't put beans on toast,yet reloaded a rifle twice without so much as cracking a nail..
Steve we have been here many times but she could put on her make up, put on her nail varnish to fingers and toes or maybe stick on false nails not that easy, if I remember rightly...and no doubt anything else to beautify herself., roll a ciggie...well I always found that difficult.  So if she could do all that she could reload a rifle as well as Jeremy. imo

Offline Jane

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2012, 03:55:PM »
Steve we have been here many times but she could put on her make up, put on her nail varnish to fingers and toes or maybe stick on false nails not that easy, if I remember rightly...and no doubt anything else to beautify herself., roll a ciggie...well I always found that difficult.  So if she could do all that she could reload a rifle as well as Jeremy. imo


Don't forget the false eyelashes, Maggie :) :) :)

Lugg

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2012, 03:56:PM »
Steve we have been here many times but she could put on her make up, put on her nail varnish to fingers and toes or maybe stick on false nails not that easy, if I remember rightly...and no doubt anything else to beautify herself., roll a ciggie...well I always found that difficult.  So if she could do all that she could reload a rifle as well as Jeremy. imo
Strange isn't it Maggie that JB forgot to mess up Sheila's nails before he left? He didn't even bother to press her fingers all over the gun after he cleaned it. Strange that. ::)

Offline curiousessex

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2012, 04:09:PM »
Hi curious the burns to Nevill I assume you're referring to remain a mystery. The last thing I read the guns barrel could not be heated to a high enough point in order to cause them.

Hi Steve

For me, what is interesting is that this is being considered by EP at the material time. Maybe EP were considering if the gun was used with or without a silencer fitted in order to rule the silencer in or the silencer out of the equation. I note Taff Jones is recorded as being present at the meeting and Taff Jones was the exponent of the murder suicide theory. As such questions were being asked and noted with his full knowledge and not behind his back.

The other thing to bare in mind is that this is also being noted whilst EP are allegedly trying to frame Jeremy and allegedly trying to set up witnesses.

Additionally, I thought grounds for appeal via the CCRC route would have to be on the basis of new evidence.

With a copy of these notes clearly not being withheld under PII and a copy being with the defence how can the recent experiments be considered as new evidence? In any event surely this point of argument should have been raised by the defence at the original trial.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 04:10:PM by curiousessex »

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2012, 04:12:PM »
Hi curious the burns to Nevill I assume you're referring to remain a mystery. The last thing I read the guns barrel could not be heated to a high enough point in order to cause them.

That is not the case.  Firing the rifle would not in itself cause the end of the barrel to be heated sufficiently, but the application of an additional heat source could.

   

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2012, 04:24:PM »
Steve we have been here many times but she could put on her make up, put on her nail varnish to fingers and toes or maybe stick on false nails not that easy, if I remember rightly...and no doubt anything else to beautify herself., roll a ciggie...well I always found that difficult.  So if she could do all that she could reload a rifle as well as Jeremy. imo

No they are completely different tasks. That particular rifle was stiff and jammed anyway on the morning of the murders making it most unlikely Sheila's nails would have remained intact.

Offline Jane

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2012, 04:29:PM »
No they are completely different tasks. That particular rifle was stiff and jammed anyway on the morning of the murders making it most unlikely Sheila's nails would have remained intact.


I rather imagine, given the extreme flimsiness of the materials involved, that more dexterity is required to correctly place false eyelashes or roll ciggies, than is needed to load a gun'

Offline lookout

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2012, 04:35:PM »
The marks would have been made with a cigar butt before being thrown into the fire. As a cigar has burnt down,it has the same propensity as the end of a poker which has been heated. And the circumference of the marks/wounds dictate that.

Lugg

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2012, 07:27:PM »
No they are completely different tasks. That particular rifle was stiff and jammed anyway on the morning of the murders making it most unlikely Sheila's nails would have remained intact.
I have never read before that the gun "jammed" on that morning? Could you direct me to the source of you information please Steve?

Caroline R

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2012, 08:32:PM »
This from a woman who couldn't drive,couldn't pour boiling water into a cup to make tea,couldn't put beans on toast,yet reloaded a rifle twice without so much as cracking a nail..

She helped Colin prepare the food etc. for the twins party on the previous Saturday - You have read Colin's book but I have never seen you quite this particular incident.

Lugg

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2012, 08:52:PM »
She helped Colin prepare the food etc. for the twins party on the previous Saturday - You have read Colin's book but I have never seen you quite this particular incident.
If the information came from the relatives could I remind members that most of that side of the family had not been to WHF since Christmas of that same year. So I'm not sure where that information of Steve's came from?

Caroline R

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2012, 08:57:PM »
If the information came from the relatives could I remind members that most of that side of the family had not been to WHF since Christmas of that same year. So I'm not sure where that information of Steve's came from?

Exactly Lugg, Colin also states that he "was shocked" by how little the relatives knew about Sheila and her illness.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2012, 09:07:PM »
I have never read before that the gun "jammed" on that morning? Could you direct me to the source of you information please Steve?

Two indications:an empty cartridge case was found suggesting that the gun hadn't fired,and one of the raid team broke a nail trying re-enact loading the anschutz.

Offline Patti

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Re: Gases/residue from gun found on nightdress worn by Sheila Caffell...
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2012, 09:12:PM »
I do believe that the rifle had malfunctioned whilst being test fired by Fletcher, due to mishandling.