Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on February 02, 2011, 11:45:PM
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Sheila was the killer
The sequence with which the first ten (10) bullets were fired from the first load of the anshulz rifle, helps to determine that Sheila was the shooter, and not Jeremy, a fact borne out by reference to the position and location of uniquely marked bullet cases which were found at the scene by the police,. For example, Five double marked bullet cases were found at various places around whf, which serve to highlight the journey that the shooter took, and made as she went on the rampage through whf, shootings and killing as she went along:-
First to be shot was June Bamber, as she lay sleeping in her bed, she was shot five times, before the shooter fled the bedroom and went into the bedroom where the two children were sleeping, and she shot them both dead, with a solitary bullet each, before returning to the doorway to the main bedroom, at which point she shot and killed June Bamber by discharging two bullets into her...
With one bullet left, the shooter went downstairs and eventually ended up shooting Ralph Bamber and wounding him in the region of the kitchen, downstairs...
By this stage, there were no more bullets in the gun, which needed to be reloaded...
?Please click on image to enlarge...
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How does that prove Sheila was the killer? Even if you're right about the old bullets, it could apply to Jeremy just as well.
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The sequence with which the first ten bullets were fired, helps to determine who was responsible:-
Sheila had a deep seated hatred for her mother, June Bamber, and it becomes clear that the threat of having her two children taken away from her, pushed Sheila over the top. The frenzied way with which June Bamber was shot whilst she lay sleeping in her bed, demonstrates that whoever shot her five times, (with new bullets) did so with overkill in mind. Sheila then went and killed her two children by shooting them once each, (Bullet cases DRH/38 and DRH/39 found in children's bedroom) whilst both slept soundly in their beds...
Whilst Sheila was in the children's bedroom, shooting her children, the badly wounded June Bamber, had managed to get herself out of bed, and had been moving around inside the bedroom. By the time Sheila came back out of the children's bedroom, June had made it to the bedroom door, and Sheila shot her twice more ( Bullet cases DRH/4 and DRH/8, found close to June Bambers body) in the head, bringing her life to an abrupt end...
By this stage, there was only one bullet left in the magazine of the gun, and this bullet was unique in the sense that it was the last of the old bullets which had been inadvertently loaded into the gun...
This last bullet, would end up wounding Ralph Bamber whilst he was present in the region of the kitchen, as evidenced by the presence of a solitary double marked bullet case, (DRH/19) found on the kitchen table...
Sheila had returned to the kitchen, with a view to reloading the gun, and bullets for that purpose, were tipped out onto the kitchen worktop close to the phone...
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There was an opportunity for a struggle to ensue between the shooter (Sheila) and Ralph Bamber, in the region of the kitchen, because Sheila needed to reload the gun with bullets...
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It was at this transitional period that the struggle between Sheila and Ralph took place, and both scratched and gouged each-other...
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Likewise, the first five bullets need not have been used to shoot June. Some of them might have been used to shoot Neville.
I thought you were going to provide some kind of proof that five of the bullets were double marked.
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Likewise, the first five bullets need not have been used to shoot June. Some of them might have been used to shoot Neville.
I thought you were going to provide some kind of proof that five of the bullets were double marked.
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Think before you post - it would have been impossible for any of those first five bullets to have wounded Neville, by virtue of the fact that by the time June Bamber was shot twice in the head, at the bedroom doorway, she had already been shot five times, whilst she lay in bed, and could not have been shot in bed (five times) once she had been shot twice at the bedroom door. She was shot five times in bed, before she was eventually shot twice in the region of the bedroom door...
June was shot and killed by seven of the first ten (10) bullets fired from the first load of the guns ammunition magazine, a fact distinguishable by reference to the positioning of the five double marked bullet cases around the house at various locations, including two double marked bullet cases inside the main bedroom, which denotes that the first five single marked bullets had already been discharged from the gun...
It would have been mathematically impossible for Ralph to have been shot any sooner than he eventually was, by any of the bullets fired from the gun, during the first discharge of the ten bullets being spoken about - simply because of the fact that June must have been shot five times in bed, before she got out of bed and moved around inside the main bedroom, and she must have been shot five times in bed, before she was shot by the two double marked bullets, whilst she loitered bear to the doorway of the bedroom, and was killed...
The presence of two additionally double marked bullet cases, (DRH/38 and DRH/39), in the children's bedroom, and the fact that the children were shot a total of eight times, plus the fact that only eight bullets cases were found to be present in that bedroom, confirms that Sheila took the Gun into the children's bedroom, and she shot her children dead, before coming back out of the children's bedroom, and confronting June Bamber at the doorway, of the main bedroom...
Sheila shot June twice more with two double marked bullets...
This left only one bullet still inside the guns magazine, a double marked bullet that ended up in the kitchen (DRH/19), which can only lead to one conclusion, and that conclusion is that Ralph was wounded at some stage inside the kitchen, and that this was the first time he got shot...
The gun was now empty (for the first time during the incident)...
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Likewise, the first five bullets need not have been used to shoot June. Some of them might have been used to shoot Neville.
I thought you were going to provide some kind of proof that five of the bullets were double marked.
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Think before you post - it would have been impossible for any of those first five bullets to have wounded Neville, by virtue of the fact that by the time June Bamber was shot twice in the head, at the bedroom doorway, she had already been shot five times, whilst she lay in bed, and could not have been shot in bed (five times) once she had been shot twice at the bedroom door. She was shot five times in bed, before she was eventually shot twice in the region of the bedroom door...
June was shot and killed by seven of the first ten (10) bullets fried from the first load of the guns ammunition magazine, a fact distinguishable by reference to the positioning of the five double marked bullet cases around the house at various locations, including two double marked bullet cases inside the main bedroom, which denotes that the first five single marked bullets had already been discharged from the gun...
It would have been mathematically impossible for Ralph to have been shot by any of the bullets fired from the gun, during the first discharge of the ten bullets being spoken about - simply because of the fact that June must have been shot five times in bed, before sh e got out of bed and moved around inside the main bedroom, and she must have been shot five times in bed, before she was shot by the two double marked bullets whilst she loitered bear to the doorway of the bedroom and was killed...
The presence of two additionally double marked bullet cases, (DRH/38 and DRH/39), in the children's bedroom, and the fact that the children were shot a total of eight times, plus the fact that only eight bullets cases were found to be present in that bedroom, confirms that Sheila took the Gun into the children's bedroom, and she shot her children dead, before coming back out of the children's bedroom, and confronting June Bamber at the doorway, of the main bedroom...
Sheila shot June twice more with two double marked bullets...
This left only one bullet still inside the guns magazine, a double marked bullet that ended up in the kitchen (DRH/19), which can only lead to one conclusion, and that conclusion is that Ralph was wounded at some stage inside the kitchen, and that this was the first time he got shot...
The gun was now empty (for the first time during the incident)...
June could have been shot three times in her bed by the first lot of bullets, and then shot again later when the gun was reloaded. How do you know she was shot twice at the door? Maybe she was shot more than twice at the door. Do you have a plan of where the cartridges were found, and do you have proof that these double-marked bullets existed?
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Even if June was shot five times first, that doesn't mean Sheila did it.
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Likewise, the first five bullets need not have been used to shoot June. Some of them might have been used to shoot Neville.
I thought you were going to provide some kind of proof that five of the bullets were double marked.
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Think before you post - it would have been impossible for any of those first five bullets to have wounded Neville, by virtue of the fact that by the time June Bamber was shot twice in the head, at the bedroom doorway, she had already been shot five times, whilst she lay in bed, and could not have been shot in bed (five times) once she had been shot twice at the bedroom door. She was shot five times in bed, before she was eventually shot twice in the region of the bedroom door...
June was shot and killed by seven of the first ten (10) bullets fried from the first load of the guns ammunition magazine, a fact distinguishable by reference to the positioning of the five double marked bullet cases around the house at various locations, including two double marked bullet cases inside the main bedroom, which denotes that the first five single marked bullets had already been discharged from the gun...
It would have been mathematically impossible for Ralph to have been shot by any of the bullets fired from the gun, during the first discharge of the ten bullets being spoken about - simply because of the fact that June must have been shot five times in bed, before sh e got out of bed and moved around inside the main bedroom, and she must have been shot five times in bed, before she was shot by the two double marked bullets whilst she loitered bear to the doorway of the bedroom and was killed...
The presence of two additionally double marked bullet cases, (DRH/38 and DRH/39), in the children's bedroom, and the fact that the children were shot a total of eight times, plus the fact that only eight bullets cases were found to be present in that bedroom, confirms that Sheila took the Gun into the children's bedroom, and she shot her children dead, before coming back out of the children's bedroom, and confronting June Bamber at the doorway, of the main bedroom...
Sheila shot June twice more with two double marked bullets...
This left only one bullet still inside the guns magazine, a double marked bullet that ended up in the kitchen (DRH/19), which can only lead to one conclusion, and that conclusion is that Ralph was wounded at some stage inside the kitchen, and that this was the first time he got shot...
The gun was now empty (for the first time during the incident)...
June could have been shot three times in her bed by the first lot of bullets, and then shot again later when the gun was reloaded. How do you know she was shot twice at the door? Maybe she was shot more than twice at the door. Do you have a plan of where the cartridges were found, and do you have proof that these double-marked bullets existed?
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This is the mistake that Essex police, and the CPS have made, they did not think the logistics of the ammunition bullet cases, and their significance through properly, they lied to the court about Ralph having been shot four times in the main bedroom, before he allegedly went downstairs, and was killed off...
Yes, I have proof about what I am talking about, there is only one way it can be explained, because of the presence of the old bullets with the double magazine markings upon them that were found at specific locations around the house. These acted like markers, and illustrate the path which was taken by the shooter on her rampage of death, and destruction, throughout the house...
Ralph could not have been shot four times in the main bedroom from any of the first ten (10) bullets - it would have been impossible. June was the target for seven of the first ten bullets, and this tells its own story...
Sheila then shot and killed her two children, this too tells its own story...
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Ralph was shot in the kitchen (non fatally) by the last of the ten bullets from the first load of the gun - this too, tells its own story...
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Even if June was shot five times first, that doesn't mean Sheila did it.
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If Jeremy was the shooter, he would have shot Ralph first, and taken him out of the equation, altogether - the overkill of June Bamber, and the fact that the children were clearly shot immediately after the attack on June, is consistent with Shela, rather than Jeremy being the shooter, for obvious reasons...
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I can't really comment further unless it can be shown that there were five double marked cartridges in the gun, and that they were loaded in the way you said they were.
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I can't really comment further unless it can be shown that there were five double marked cartridges in the gun, and that they were loaded in the way you said they were.
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I appreciate that, but this is what is going to help Jeremy get his case back to the court of appeal, and win, if the CCRC do not refer his case back within two weeks time...
What I have uncovered is dynamite, and will silence all the skeptics who think, or who thought Jeremy was the killer. He couldn't have been the killer no matter how hard anyone wants him to be it...
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The bullet trail could indeed shed new light.
I can visualise Shelia carrying out the shootings much easier than I can imagine Jeremy doing it.
As for Julie Mugford, I never believed her story back at the time, and I don't believe it now.
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I can't really comment further unless it can be shown that there were five double marked cartridges in the gun, and that they were loaded in the way you said they were.
Same here.... I would like to know, is all the above thoery based on the bullets being loaded in a certain way and if the above only works because the bullets were loaded a certain way where is the proof that the old bullets were the first bullets to be put in the magazine?
I can't see how there can be FACTUAL PROOF that the first bullets in the magazine (last to be fired) were old... Jeremy may say he put the old bullets in the magazine sometime before the fateful night but thats just Jeremys word and can't be used as fact... surely.
Without any times of death or a witness account of the shootings as they happened it is purely speculation as to when each shot was fired... I can't see any hands down, unquestionable evidence that says the 10 bullets in the magazine were loaded in a certain way.
Scenario... who ever loaded rifle takes old ones out first then reloads them... drops one, replaces it with new bullet then picks up old one and puts it back in.
I have no proof to support this thoery but its just as believable.
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I'll simplfy things a little... Mikes already put alot of time into this thread and I DO have great respect for his dedication and attention to detail...
But for me to get past this issue I would like to know
1) Is there any FACTUAL evidence to prove 5 old bullets were first in the magazine and then 5 new bullets? Or is it just the statement of Jeremy that tells us this is how he left the rifle, with 5 old bullets in the magazine?
2) If the above can't be proved with FACT how can the order of bullets fired be relied upon?
Cheers
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The sequence with which the first ten bullets were fired, helps to determine who was responsible:-
Sheila had a deep seated hatred for her mother, June Bamber
The frenzied way with which June Bamber was shot whilst she lay sleeping in her bed, demonstrates that whoever shot her five times, (with new bullets) did so with overkill in mind.
Re: Overkill - which was the more frenzied attack? The one on June or the one on Ralph?
Re: The hatred of her mother - how did Jeremy feel about the parents that had adopted him?
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Not sure what relevance that has to my question.
No one knows the times of death... No one knows who was shot first. There all assumptions made via what is logical or considered likely.
Many things happen in this world that are illogical (characterized by lack of logic; senseless or unreasonable).
Mike is accounting the way things happened because of sequence the marked bullets left the gun. Without HARD FACTUAL EVIDENCE that the bullets were loaded in that order... it is pure thoery.
I'm not trying to belittle the thoery but I can't see how it can be considered useful or accurate without FACTS.
Show me one piece of HARD EVIDENCE that PROVES the bullets were loaded 5 old first 5 new last and I'll accept it until then I can't see how this thoery is worth much.
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I was clearly quoting from earlier in the thread. I can't make my post appear anywhere else. I understand your questions, but I cannot answer them. I assume that the thread is not closed while you await an answer?
If you want, you could make your questions a separate thread, and await answers there. You can bump each day too if it falls down the board.
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I was clearly quoting from earlier in the thread. I can't make my post appear anywhere else. I understand your questions, but I cannot answer them. I assume that the thread is not closed while you await an answer?
If you want, you could make your questions a separate thread, and await answers there. You can bump each day too if it falls down the board.
Sorry.. I didn't realise your remarks where in the QUOTE.. I thought you were qouting something Mike said, to me.
when you post and quote someone else, make sure you type your message under the [./quote.] mark in the reply box... then it will appear outside of the original quote.
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The sticking point for me is the fact that 11 shots were fired in the bedroom at Neville and June. Leaving aside the issue of the double marked bullets, the 11 shots in the bedroom mean that even if all the bullets in the gun were fired at the same time in the bedroom, there had to be one more shot later after the gun had been reloaded. I can see no reason for that, whoever did it.
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I'll simplfy things a little... Mikes already put alot of time into this thread and I DO have great respect for his dedication and attention to detail...
But for me to get past this issue I would like to know
1) Is there any FACTUAL evidence to prove 5 old bullets were first in the magazine and then 5 new bullets? Or is it just the statement of Jeremy that tells us this is how he left the rifle, with 5 old bullets in the magazine?
2) If the above can't be proved with FACT how can the order of bullets fired be relied upon?
Cheers
I also appreciate that Mike has been looking at this case for a very long time and seems to have access to a lot of information that others don't, but the other question is how Mike knows where these double marked cartridges were found.
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I'll simplfy things a little... Mikes already put alot of time into this thread and I DO have great respect for his dedication and attention to detail...
But for me to get past this issue I would like to know
1) Is there any FACTUAL evidence to prove 5 old bullets were first in the magazine and then 5 new bullets? Or is it just the statement of Jeremy that tells us this is how he left the rifle, with 5 old bullets in the magazine?
2) If the above can't be proved with FACT how can the order of bullets fired be relied upon?
Cheers
I also appreciate that Mike has been looking at this case for a very long time and seems to have access to a lot of information that others don't, but the other question is how Mike knows where these double marked cartridges were found.
But even knowing where they were found doesn't prove the order in which they were loaded into the magazine as the order of death is just speculation.
We're talking about 2 possible culprits... ONE who would be accused of being cold and calculated so may disrupt the scene in any number of ways to make things look different and ONE who has a track record of mental issues and drug use and who's trail would leave no logical reason.
The simple fact is its speculation how the bullets were loaded.
Jeremy is the only person alive who can comment on how HE left the rifle and magazine.. but this is his word.. unfortunatly not a FACT.
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But even knowing where they were found doesn't prove the order in which they were loaded into the magazine as the order of death is just speculation.
We're talking about 2 possible culprits... ONE who would be accused of being cold and calculated so may disrupt the scene in any number of ways to make things look different and ONE who has a track record of mental issues and drug use and who's trail would leave no logical reason.
The simple fact is its speculation how the bullets were loaded.
Jeremy is the only person alive who can comment on how HE left the rifle and magazine.. but this is his word.. unfortunatly not a FACT.
I absolutely agree with you. Of course it's possible that Jeremy told someone how the gun was loaded that night. He said he loaded the gun himself, so he might well have remembered if some of the bullets were double marked ones.
I think I need a little more info about how guns are loaded and all that.
This is from the Appeal document - para 124
During this conversation the appellant said he saw rabbits outside the house so he took the .22 rifle from the office/den, loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside. In fact he fired no shots outside and he then left the gun in the kitchen having removed the magazine and the bullet which was in the breach.
So the magazine was detachable - that could be interesting.
He removed the bullet from the breach - what does that mean?
Why would some of the bullets be double marked anyway? Does that mean they were loaded once, taken out, and then loaded again? Why would someone do that?
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During this conversation the appellant said he saw rabbits outside the house so he took the .22 rifle from the office/den, loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside. In fact he fired no shots outside and he then left the gun in the kitchen having removed the magazine and the bullet which was in the breach.
So even in his own evidence he said "8 to 10 rounds".. he's unsure so why do we put more weight behind other things he says like 5 double marked bullets being in place before the remainder of the magazine is filled?
He removed the bullet from the breach - what does that mean?
When the magazine was removed there would still be one in the chamber that could be fired without the magazine in place. I guess that rilfe with a full magazine inserted automatically place the first bullet at the top of the magazine into the chamber ready to fire.
Why would some of the bullets be double marked anyway? Does that mean they were loaded once, taken out, and then loaded again? Why would someone do that?
Double marking I presume means there are "scratch" marks on the side of the bullet... a bullet loaded more than once would have multiple marks from the side of magazine as they are pushed into place.
I'm not sure why you would remove the already loaded bullets other than to store or count?
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Sheila was the killer
The sequence with which the first ten (10) bullets were fired from the first load of the anshulz rifle, helps to determine that Sheila was the shooter, and not Jeremy, a fact borne out by reference to the position and location of uniquely marked bullet cases which were found at the scene by the police,. For example, Five double marked bullet cases were found at various places around whf, which serve to highlight the journey that the shooter took, and made as she went on the rampage through whf, shootings and killing as she went along:-
First to be shot was June Bamber, as she lay sleeping in her bed, she was shot five times, before the shooter fled the bedroom and went into the bedroom where the two children were sleeping, and she shot them both dead, with a solitary bullet each, before returning to the doorway to the main bedroom, at which point she shot and killed June Bamber by discharging two bullets into her...
With one bullet left, the shooter went downstairs and eventually ended up shooting Ralph Bamber and wounding him in the region of the kitchen, downstairs...
I can believe what you have posted but can't see it as anymore than speculation... yuo say the children were shot dead with a solitary bullet each... at what point did the shooter decide to fire a few each at the children and why?
All the above is based on the bullets appearing in the magazine as yuo say and that June was shot first and then the kids and then june and then neville.... there is no fact that i can see. Maybe I'm being a bit slow
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If June was shot first and Neville was shot in the kitchen with the last of the first magazine of bullets, then what on earth was he doing downstairs. He'd be leaving his mental daughter running about with a gun, that seems a bit illogical! Wouldn't he be trying to protect his wife and grandchildren upstairs?
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If June was shot first and Neville was shot in the kitchen with the last of the first magazine of bullets, then what on earth was he doing downstairs. He'd be leaving his mental daughter running about with a gun, that seems a bit illogical! Wouldn't he be trying to protect his wife and grandchildren upstairs?
Unless the bullet cases really don't mean anything to how the scene played out and Neville was downstairs talking to Jeremy when the shooting started... Jeremy says the phone went dead (not cut off or that Neville left the phone.. just dead).. did Neville return upstairs due to hearing something?
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My point is, if he had gone downstairs to phone Jeremy, he said Sheila had a gun, so why he would leave his wife in bed alone, when his daughter has a gun seems odd. Logically you'd ahve thought he'd wake her up and take her with him if he'd heard something (Sheila with a gun). Unless June was shot first, whilst Neville was in bed next to her?
Your right, the bullet cases could mean nothing. Especially with scuffles etc, they could get kicked around the place.
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Could the positioning and movement of Ralph be because his arm was twisted behind his back and that he was being forced down/up stairs by the killer?
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yes, but I wonder how many of us actually realise the seriousness of the situations we're in sometimes? If she was upstairs in her bedroom with a gun then maybe Neville thought with Jeremys help they could ease the situation.
From what I've read Neville and Sheila had a good relationship... involving the Police at this early stage would have a devistating effect on Sheila's future and that of the children and by all accounts Neville came across as the type of person who believed in family and privacy.
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As mentioned in another thread, Jeremy now relies on a document purporting to show Neville having called the police first, before calling Jeremy
http://jeremybamber.org/NevillsCalltoPolice.aspx
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When the magazine was removed there would still be one in the chamber that could be fired without the magazine in place. I guess that rilfe with a full magazine inserted automatically place the first bullet at the top of the magazine into the chamber ready to fire.
Sorry - I'm not good with multi quotes, so I'll reply to this one first. ;D
If there were 10 ten bullets in the magazine, and then he removed one bullet from the breach, does that mean there were now only 9 bullets available in the magazine?
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Double marking I presume means there are "scratch" marks on the side of the bullet... a bullet loaded more than once would have multiple marks from the side of magazine as they are pushed into place.
I'm not sure why you would remove the already loaded bullets other than to store or count?
OK, thank you. I would like to know why five bullets would be removed and then reloaded, but let's just say they were. If they had been removed previously and put back in the ammunition box, and Jeremy then put them back in, would he have noticed they were already marked?
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Sheila was the killer
The sequence with which the first ten (10) bullets were fired from the first load of the anshulz rifle, helps to determine that Sheila was the shooter, and not Jeremy, a fact borne out by reference to the position and location of uniquely marked bullet cases which were found at the scene by the police,. For example, Five double marked bullet cases were found at various places around whf, which serve to highlight the journey that the shooter took, and made as she went on the rampage through whf, shootings and killing as she went along:-
First to be shot was June Bamber, as she lay sleeping in her bed, she was shot five times, before the shooter fled the bedroom and went into the bedroom where the two children were sleeping, and she shot them both dead, with a solitary bullet each, before returning to the doorway to the main bedroom, at which point she shot and killed June Bamber by discharging two bullets into her...
With one bullet left, the shooter went downstairs and eventually ended up shooting Ralph Bamber and wounding him in the region of the kitchen, downstairs...
I can believe what you have posted but can't see it as anymore than speculation... yuo say the children were shot dead with a solitary bullet each... at what point did the shooter decide to fire a few each at the children and why?
All the above is based on the bullets appearing in the magazine as yuo say and that June was shot first and then the kids and then june and then neville.... there is no fact that i can see. Maybe I'm being a bit slow
No, you're not being slow. ;D
If the boys were killed with one bullet each, the killer must have gone back later and fired at them again - in the head. Why?
If June was shot first whilst she was in bed, she might have got out of bed, and the killer then saw her as he or she was returning from the boys' room and shot her again twice. I don't see why that's necessarily what happened though. She could have been shot five times in a row, got out of bed and been shot again straightaway. Then the killer went to the boys' room and shot them once each. Then the killer went downstairs to find Neville.
In all this, the sticking point for me is those four bullets in the bedroom which were not used on June. If Neville was downstairs and he was shot once with a double-marked bullet, at what point did he go upstairs again, get shot four more times, and then went back down to the kitchen to be shot three more times? More importantly, how could he go down to the kitchen again if he had been shot five times by then?
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you start with loading 10 bullets (max.) into the magazine. You clip the magazine in place. one bullet then enters the breach for firing.
No shots are fired (because the rabbits had gone).
The magazine now containing 9 bullets is unclipped and the bullet in the breach is also manually removed.
Jeremy, I believe, stated that he made the gun safe by removing the magazine (now containing 9 bullets) and removing the bullet from the breach.
If the murderer replaced the magazine it would have 9 bullets in it, unless the bullet taken from the breach (or elsewhere) was put back in the magazine, making 10 bullets, by Jeremy or later by the murderer.
Is it clear that no other preloaded magazines were used (i.e. was there only one magazine used)?
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you start with loading 10 bullets (max.) into the magazine. You clip the magazine in place. one bullet then enters the breach for firing.
No shots are fired (because the rabbits had gone).
The magazine now containing 9 bullets is unclipped and the bullet in the breach is also manually removed.
Jeremy, I believe, stated that he made the gun safe by removing the magazine (now containing 9 bullets) and removing the bullet from the breach.
If the murderer replaced the magazine it would have 9 bullets in it, unless the bullet taken from the breach (or elsewhere) was put back in the magazine, making 10 bullets, by Jeremy or later by the murderer.
Is it clear that no other preloaded magazines were used (i.e. was there only one magazine used)?
Thanks!
So if the gun was just picked up and the magazine attached with nine bullets in it, that changes everything with regard to Mike's theory. For a start, it would mean there weren't ten bullets in it.
I would also like to know if there were any other magazines for the gun. That's why I said it was interesting that it was detachable. If there were others, the killer could preload them and that would mean they didn't have to fiddle about putting bullets in the magazine between the shootings.
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It all depends on where the bullet Jeremy removed from the breach ended up..... but also remember, Jeremy's statement isn't clear... he says
During this conversation the appellant said he saw rabbits outside the house so he took the .22 rifle from the office/den, loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside. In fact he fired no shots outside and he then left the gun in the kitchen having removed the magazine and the bullet which was in the breach.
Meaning we don't know if the magazine had 8 rounds with one chambered leaving 7 in magazine, 9 in the magazine with one chambered leaving 8 in the magazine or 10 in magazine with one chambered leaving 9 in the magazine when Jeremy cambe back in and made the gun safe. There's no mention of where the bullet from the breach was put.
So we can't assume we know how many bullets were in the magazine when the murderer started shooting.. Did they start with 8 (if jeremy returned the breached round to the magazine) bullets, 9 or 10... or 7, 8 or 9 if Jeremy didn't return the bullet to the magazine and put it back in the ammo box. I haven't read any evidence that makes this clear. Only what Jeremy said... loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside.
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It all depends on where the bullet Jeremy removed from the breach ended up..... but also remember, Jeremy's statement isn't clear... he says
During this conversation the appellant said he saw rabbits outside the house so he took the .22 rifle from the office/den, loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside. In fact he fired no shots outside and he then left the gun in the kitchen having removed the magazine and the bullet which was in the breach.
Meaning we don't know if the magazine had 8 rounds with one chambered leaving 7 in magazine, 9 in the magazine with one chambered leaving 8 in the magazine or 10 in magazine with one chambered leaving 9 in the magazine when Jeremy cambe back in and made the gun safe. There's no mention of where the bullet from the breach was put.
So we can't assume we know how many bullets were in the magazine when the murderer started shooting.. Did they start with 8 (if jeremy returned the breached round to the magazine) bullets, 9 or 10... or 7, 8 or 9 if Jeremy didn't return the bullet to the magazine and put it back in the ammo box. I haven't read any evidence that makes this clear. Only what Jeremy said... loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside.
That's right. It seems that the magazine could have contained any number of bullets between 7 and 10,
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There are a number of permutations here, but the murderer could have topped up the magazine to 10 before shooting!
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yes... COULD have.. but again no evidence so its kind of pointless unless it leads somewhere of fact or a fact leads up to it.
There's threads all over here counting bullets, new ones, old ones and reloaded ones... but I can't understand how it actually means anything of great importance with out FACTS.
It just means the murderer (Sheila or Jeremy) reloaded at some point and continued to shoot the victims.
Reloading is the only FACT as the magazine only holds 10 shots.
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If one considers for a moment that Jeremy might be the killer, he would have been aware that he had ten bullets at the most before he had to reload (unless there were other magazines which he could preload). There were five people to kill. That means that he either thought he could do it with two bullets on average, or he thought he would have time to reload the gun and that nobody would stop him from doing so.
It was very risky wasn't it?
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Pete0001 makes a good point, reloading is the only fact.
It is easy to speculate: for example, I am speculating when I say that the killer could have been carrying enough bullets in a pocket to be able to reload anywhere
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Thats a very good point Kaldin.
If we're going with cold and calculated then he would know how many shots he's got and surely wouldn't leave the ammo box out of reach.. you watch any western/film... yuo load up and grab a handful of ammo.
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Pete0001 makes a good point, reloading is the only fact.
It is easy to speculate: for example, I am speculating when I say that the killer could have been carrying enough bullets in a pocket to be able to reload anywhere
heh cross posted.. yes.. my thoughts exactly.. cold and calculated wouldn't leave to chance the whole plan failing because he left the ammo downstairs and couldnt reload.
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Thats a very good point Kaldin.
If we're going with cold and calculated then he would know how many shots he's got and surely wouldn't leave the ammo box out of reach.. you watch any western/film... yuo load up and grab a handful of ammo.
Yes, and he had to be aware that whilst he was reloading he couldn't shoot anyone, so any of the adults could have challenged him.
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And the parents it seems did challenge, one got out of bed and the other made it downstairs
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Is there anything about spare magazines that could have been loaded? Surely in a farmhouse they would have a spare magazine incase it jams, so there could have been 2 or more loaded magazines of ammo being carried around by the killer? Could there not?
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And the parents it seems did challenge, one got out of bed and the other made it downstairs
Exactly.
Neville did indeed challenge him - would Jeremy not have anticipated that would happen? After all, if he's busy shooting his mother he would surely expect his father to try to stop him. He couldn't have known what Sheila would do either. If his plan was to shoot Neville first, what did he expect his mother and Sheila to be doing?
Assuming Jeremy did it, what was his plan? To get into the house quietly whilst everyone was asleep and shoot them all in their beds without the others noticing?
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Was his plan what he told Julie Mugford - obviously replacing Matthew MacDonald with himself? It went pretty much to plan didn't it?
Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.
The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain.
From http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.htm para 99
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Was his plan what he told Julie Mugford - obviously replacing Matthew MacDonald with himself? It went pretty much to plan didn't it?
Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.
The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain.
The MacDonald element is fascinating - worth its own thread really.
The man had an alibi so we know that none of that happened. Why then would Jeremy tell Julie that MacDonald had done it? I wonder if he did actually plan for MacDonald to do it, or just said it was him so that Julie wouldn't think he was a murderer himself - daft I know.
Julie knew all those details by then so she could have made the whole thing up I suppose. I wonder if she knew MacDonald herself.
We know that the phone with the redial wasn't used (it had been sent for repair) so Jeremy wasn't talking of what actually happened, but he could have been talking about what he'd planned in some respects and talking about what actually happened in other respects - eg, the fight with Neville. He couldn't have planned the fight with Neville - could he?
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Maybe not have planned the fight with Neville, but could have assumed that it would take place. Like I've said before, if anyone was running around with a gun and shooting your family you'd surely do something to try and stop them.
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Post Pete0001
"yes... COULD have.. but again no evidence so its kind of pointless unless it leads somewhere of fact or a fact leads up to it.
There's threads all over here counting bullets, new ones, old ones and reloaded ones... but I can't understand how it actually means anything of great importance with out FACTS.
It just means the murderer (Sheila or Jeremy) reloaded at some point and continued to shoot the victims.
Reloading is the only FACT as the magazine only holds 10 shots".
- Which is exactly why I said "could". I did not say I had evidence . There are lots of coulds, but's, if's and other pointless remarks on here from all.
Why is reloading the only fact, when there could have been another magazine used, unless of course you have positive proof that only one magazine was used?
The CCRC have the final say and I am sure they have a lot more information than we have to go on. Just over a week to wait!
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Maybe not have planned the fight with Neville, but could have assumed that it would take place. Like I've said before, if anyone was running around with a gun and shooting your family you'd surely do something to try and stop them.
He might have anticipated it. My goodness - you would have to be a very cruel and cold person to anticipate fighting with your own father and shooting him face to face.
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The simple explanation may indeed be that he "just said it was him so that Julie wouldn't think he was a murderer himself " Yes, Julie could have made the whole thing up and no, I don't think a fight can be planned - even if it was one sided.
Again the phone is interesting. What was necessary was that there was a phone, the ideal may have been that it had a redial feature. Or maybe that wasn't the ideal - since we know that the actual kitchen phone was hidden and had been replaced with the bedroom one.
All just speculation and maybe we're not asking the right questions. Remember, Mike Tesko has spent over twenty years on this.
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The simple explanation may indeed be that he "just said it was him so that Julie wouldn't think he was a murderer himself " Yes, Julie could have made the whole thing up and no, I don't think a fight can be planned - even if it was one sided.
Again the phone is interesting. What was necessary was that there was a phone, the ideal may have been that it had a redial feature. Or maybe that wasn't the ideal - since we know that the actual kitchen phone was hidden and had been replaced with the bedroom one.
All just speculation and maybe we're not asking the right questions. Remember, Mike Tesko has spent over twenty years on this.
That business about the bedroom phone being in the kitchen is still a mystery to me. I can think of no real reason it was there, and I think it might be significant.
Perhaps we are asking the wrong question, but maybe someone will ask just the right question and bingo! Probably not though. ;D
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With reference to the phone, Jeremy would know.
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With reference to the phone, Jeremy would know.
He might or he might not. If he put it there he would know why obviously, but if he didn't, he might not know.
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With reference to the phone, Jeremy would know.
He might or he might not. If he put it there he would know why obviously, but if he didn't, he might not know.
Yes, apologies he might know, bearing in mind that he was at the house for an evening meal that night.
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Post Pete0001
"yes... COULD have.. but again no evidence so its kind of pointless unless it leads somewhere of fact or a fact leads up to it.
There's threads all over here counting bullets, new ones, old ones and reloaded ones... but I can't understand how it actually means anything of great importance with out FACTS.
It just means the murderer (Sheila or Jeremy) reloaded at some point and continued to shoot the victims.
Reloading is the only FACT as the magazine only holds 10 shots".
- Which is exactly why I said "could". I did not say I had evidence . There are lots of coulds, but's, if's and other pointless remarks on here from all.
Why is reloading the only fact, when there could have been another magazine used, unless of course you have positive proof that only one magazine was used?
The CCRC have the final say and I am sure they have a lot more information than we have to go on. Just over a week to wait!
Sorry I wasn't having a go.
There may well have been another magazine... but it has never been mentioned.
I say fact because it is fact that the gun was reloaded. Again this is a good example of how things are said and interprited differently by different people.
The gun is reloaded whether it be with a fresh magazine or new bullets in the magazine already used, again not overly important and the only fact still remaining is that the gun stopped firing due to bullets running out until fresh bullets where loaded.
The only thing I can think of that a second magazine would help with is the lack of bullet debris/lead/discolouration found on Sheila's hands when swabbed. But for this to be the case someone needs to confirm the exisitance of a second magazine.. I think Jeremy is the only person alive who would know? Not sure
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With reference to the phone, Jeremy would know.
He might or he might not. If he put it there he would know why obviously, but if he didn't, he might not know.
Yes, apologies he might know, bearing in mind that he was at the house for an evening meal that night.
Well he said he was there for a meal. ;D
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Post Pete0001
"yes... COULD have.. but again no evidence so its kind of pointless unless it leads somewhere of fact or a fact leads up to it.
There's threads all over here counting bullets, new ones, old ones and reloaded ones... but I can't understand how it actually means anything of great importance with out FACTS.
It just means the murderer (Sheila or Jeremy) reloaded at some point and continued to shoot the victims.
Reloading is the only FACT as the magazine only holds 10 shots".
- Which is exactly why I said "could". I did not say I had evidence . There are lots of coulds, but's, if's and other pointless remarks on here from all.
Why is reloading the only fact, when there could have been another magazine used, unless of course you have positive proof that only one magazine was used?
The CCRC have the final say and I am sure they have a lot more information than we have to go on. Just over a week to wait!
Sorry I wasn't having a go.
There may well have been another magazine... but it has never been mentioned.
I say fact because it is fact that the gun was reloaded. Again this is a good example of how things are said and interpreted differently by different people.
The gun is reloaded whether it be with a fresh magazine or new bullets in the magazine already used, again not overly important and the only fact still remaining is that the gun stopped firing due to bullets running out until fresh bullets where loaded.
The only thing I can think of that a second magazine would help with is the lack of bullet debris/lead/discolouration found on Sheila's hands when swabbed. But for this to be the case someone needs to confirm the existence of a second magazine.. I think Jeremy is the only person alive who would know? Not sure
Thanks.
Most references in this case refer to one magazine being reloaded, but one of my very first thoughts on the case when I picked it up from the Sunday Times in July 2010 was how many magazines were kept at the farm, and were any stored preloaded and then trying (in vain) to establish the shooting sequence.
I believe Mike has made reference to 10 bullets being ballistically matched to the murder weapon , but 15 are maybes? (even though the prosecution based their case on all bullets being fired from the murder weapon).
Does anyone have a comment on this?
Again there are so many possibilities surrounding the gun, the bullets etc. I don't think we will categorically answer them! - hence the important date which is just over a week away
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Post Pete0001
"yes... COULD have.. but again no evidence so its kind of pointless unless it leads somewhere of fact or a fact leads up to it.
There's threads all over here counting bullets, new ones, old ones and reloaded ones... but I can't understand how it actually means anything of great importance with out FACTS.
It just means the murderer (Sheila or Jeremy) reloaded at some point and continued to shoot the victims.
Reloading is the only FACT as the magazine only holds 10 shots".
- Which is exactly why I said "could". I did not say I had evidence . There are lots of coulds, but's, if's and other pointless remarks on here from all.
Why is reloading the only fact, when there could have been another magazine used, unless of course you have positive proof that only one magazine was used?
The CCRC have the final say and I am sure they have a lot more information than we have to go on. Just over a week to wait!
Sorry I wasn't having a go.
There may well have been another magazine... but it has never been mentioned.
I say fact because it is fact that the gun was reloaded. Again this is a good example of how things are said and interpreted differently by different people.
The gun is reloaded whether it be with a fresh magazine or new bullets in the magazine already used, again not overly important and the only fact still remaining is that the gun stopped firing due to bullets running out until fresh bullets where loaded.
The only thing I can think of that a second magazine would help with is the lack of bullet debris/lead/discolouration found on Sheila's hands when swabbed. But for this to be the case someone needs to confirm the existence of a second magazine.. I think Jeremy is the only person alive who would know? Not sure
Thanks.
Most references in this case refer to one magazine being reloaded, but one of my very first thoughts on the case when I picked it up from the Sunday Times in July 2010 was how many magazines were kept at the farm, and were any stored preloaded and then trying (in vain) to establish the shooting sequence.
I believe Mike has made reference to 10 bullets being ballistically matched to the murder weapon , but 15 are maybes? (even though the prosecution based their case on all bullets being fired from the murder weapon).
Does anyone have a comment on this?
Again there are so many possibilities surrounding the gun, the bullets etc. I don't think we will categorically answer them! - hence the important date which is just over a week away
I think it's very important to know if there were any other magazines in the house which could be preloaded. That wouldn't establish Jeremy's guilt or innocence because it could indicate two things. It could indicate why Sheila had so little debris from bullets on her hands, but equally it could indicate a level of pre-meditation which I don't think she would have thought of. In either case, it could explain why nobody was able to stop the killer, but that could apply to either Sheila or Jeremy.
Re the issue of another gun, that is not something I've thought about at all. I've seen comments by Mike about the bullet holes being different sizes and all kinds of speculation, but I'd have to give that some more thought. In particular, why would the police not mention another gun being at the scene?
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Some great debate going on about different things that no one can be 100 per cent sure about , but EP photos showing blood on the floor that had dripped from her wounds is a fact that no one can argue about and we all know people who have been dead 7 hours dont bleed !
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Some great debate going on about different things that no one can be 100 per cent sure about , but EP photos showing blood on the floor that had dripped from her wounds is a fact that no one can argue about and we all know people who have been dead 7 hours dont bleed !
I'd like to know more about that. I've seen a statement which says that blood was "leaking" from her mouth, but it's not clear to me if that means the blood was actually moving or if the person who made the statement just meant that it had leaked.
http://www.jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber7.htm
I've seen a picture of Sheila where the blood does look very red and new, but obviously I can't tell if that blood is moving or not.
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Some great debate going on about different things that no one can be 100 per cent sure about , but EP photos showing blood on the floor that had dripped from her wounds is a fact that no one can argue about and we all know people who have been dead 7 hours dont bleed !
I'd like to know more about that. I've seen a statement which says that blood was "leaking" from her mouth, but it's not clear to me if that means the blood was actually moving or if the person who made the statement just meant that it had leaked.
http://www.jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber7.htm
I've seen a picture of Sheila where the blood does look very red and new, but obviously I can't tell if that blood is moving or not.
Go to the post ' secrets EP didnt want you to see ', next to SC body there is different blood stains on the carpet , these are some of the photos Peter Sutherst the photo expert as examined . Once there is blood in two different places around the body the case against JB collapses !
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Some great debate going on about different things that no one can be 100 per cent sure about , but EP photos showing blood on the floor that had dripped from her wounds is a fact that no one can argue about and we all know people who have been dead 7 hours dont bleed !
I'd like to know more about that. I've seen a statement which says that blood was "leaking" from her mouth, but it's not clear to me if that means the blood was actually moving or if the person who made the statement just meant that it had leaked.
http://www.jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber7.htm
I've seen a picture of Sheila where the blood does look very red and new, but obviously I can't tell if that blood is moving or not.
Go to the post ' secrets EP didnt want you to see ', next to SC body there is different blood stains on the carpet , these are some of the photos Peter Sutherst the photo expert as examined . Once there is blood in two different places around the body the case against JB collapses !
They could be splatter from when the bullets went into her neck though. My point is that I'm not sure if the blood was moving from the wounds, which would indicate that she was killed later than they thought at first.
Are they sure that is Sheila's blood? Could it not be June's or Neville's?
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Ammunition magazine had the capacity to hold, ten (10) bullets, with the capacity for another bullet to be loaded up into the weapons breach - making for a total of 11 bullets in the gun...
EP were puzzled and wanted to find out, where five additional bullets originated from, bearing in mind that they settled for there having been twenty five bullets fired during the incident. They found a new box of .22 ammunition on the kitchen worktop, which only had 29 bullets which could be associated with it, that were tipped out onto the kitchen worktop, alongside. There was one solitary bullet, which had a speck of blood upon it, that was still standing in the actual ammunition box...
A new box of .22 ammunition, like the one which was found on the Kitchen worktop close to the phone, would contain no less than 50 .bullets...
EP calculated that there were 20 bullets missing from the box of ammunition, and they settled for there having been twenty five (25) shots fired during the incident...
Police state that when the rifle was checked at the scene, it did not have bullets in its magazine, and there was no solitary bullet in its breach...
Ralph was shot eight times, four non fatal, four fatal
June was shot seven times, five non fatal, two fatal
Daniel was shot five times, all five fatal
Nicholas was shot three times, all three fatal
Shela was shot twice, one non fatal, one fatal
Twenty five shots fired...
Nine bullets cases found in main bedroom, four added by sleight of hand
eight bullet cases found in children's bedroom
One bullet case found on middle landing of main stairs
Three bullet cases found in kitchen
Four bullet cases found elsewhere at scene, and displaced to main bedroom acting upon the instruction of PI Miller
There was an official test firing of rifle on control bullets between 20th September 1985 and 2nd October 1985
There was an unofficial test firing of the same gun and other control ammunition on or around 11th September 1985 - 18th September 1985
One of the two bullets (PV/20) which was a fragmented bullet on 7th August 1985, became transformed into a whole bullet, by the time the official test firing of the rifle and control ammunition took place after 20th September 1985, which enabled the ballistic expert to link and associate it with the rifle...
Five bullet cases found at the scene, had double magazine markings upon them, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/38, DRH/39 and DRH/19 - these were found in the main bedroom, the children bedroom, and the kitchen (according to the police case).
All the other 20 bullet cases, only had single magazine marks upon them...
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All of this material and information, is known to be FACT...
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If Sheila had stopped bleeding the blood would have been flat and dark, not tubular and wet. If Jeremy had been the killer, rigor mortice would have set in and they would have been unable to move her from the bed onto the floor, then move her limbs.
Ann Eaton confirmed in a COLP(?) statement that she'd been told by an officer that Sheila was on the bed before she ended up on the floor...
Hopefully Jeremy's defence team now have the photos(s).
Were there no photos of Sheila's body at the original trial?
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First question. How did the police know that the box of ammunition was new?
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EP and DPP were satisfied that there were two additional loads of the rifles ammunition magazine, and that weapon was fired in three separates sequences, where ten (10) bullets were fired during first phase, another ten (10) during second phase, and five (5) during last phase - these were the facts upon which the case against Jeremy was pursued, and on this basis, that is how the investigation into who got shot first, with the discharge of the first ten (10) bullets from the first load of the ammunition magazine took place...
These are the facts which the case was pursued against Jeremy, by the police, and the DPP...
Any attempts by anyone to try and change or alter the sequence with which all these bullets were fired, by speculating that there may only have been nine bullets, or eight bullets, fired in the first load of the gun, appears to be somewhat mischievous, with nothing to back such claims up...
Stick to the facts which were used and relied upon to prosecute Jeremy...
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Next question. Even if five double-marked bullets were found at the scene, how do you know that they were the first to be loaded?
I'm quite interested in this news that the gun could hold 11 bullets. That could explain why there were 11 shots in the bedroom at June and Neville. That 11th bullet bothers me.
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EP and DPP were satisfied that there were two additional loads of the rifles ammunition magazine, and that weapon was fired in three separates sequences, where ten (10) bullets were fired during first phase, another ten (10) during second phase, and five (5) during last phase - these were the facts upon which the case against Jeremy was pursued, and on this basis, that is how the investigation into who got shot first, with the discharge of the first ten (10) bullets from the first load of the ammunition magazine took place...
These are the facts which the case was pursued against Jeremy, by the police, and the DPP...
Any attempts by anyone to try and change or alter the sequence with which all these bullets were fired, by speculating that there may only have been nine bullets, or eight bullets, fired in the first load of the gun, appears to be somewhat mischievous, with nothing to back such claims up...
Stick to the facts which were used and relied upon to prosecute Jeremy...
It's not speculation - it's evidence from the Appeal document. Jeremy said he loaded the gun with eight to ten bullets. He then said he removed the magazine and a bullet from the breach. Are you saying the Appeal document is wrong?
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Where is the evidence that four bullets were falsely attributed to the bedroom, and why would the police do that?
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At the end of each phase, the shooter would be required to reload the weapon, with additional bullets, and so on, and so forth...
There was an opportunity for a struggle to take place, in the region where the loose bullets were tipped out on to the kitchen worktop, close to the phone, on each of the two occasions when the shooter needed to reload the gun with additional ammunition...
These are the facts, which the police and the DPP relied upon to prosecute Jeremy...
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Next question. Even if four double-marked bullets were found at the scene, how do you know that they were the first to be loaded?
I'm quite interested in this news that the gun could hold 11 bullets. That could explain why there were 11 shots in the bedroom at June and Neville. That 11th bullet bothers me.
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It should, and there is good reason for it...
*Five double marked bullets, not four double marked bullets...
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Next question. Even if four double-marked bullets were found at the scene, how do you know that they were the first to be loaded?
I'm quite interested in this news that the gun could hold 11 bullets. That could explain why there were 11 shots in the bedroom at June and Neville. That 11th bullet bothers me.
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It should, and there is good reason for it...
*Five double marked bullets, not four double marked bullets...
You're not answering my questions. How do you know that the five double-marked bullets were loaded first?
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Some great debate going on about different things that no one can be 100 per cent sure about , but EP photos showing blood on the floor that had dripped from her wounds is a fact that no one can argue about and we all know people who have been dead 7 hours dont bleed !
You are missing the point the blood on the carpet around SC is different in both photos , zoom in on the blood , two different photos two lots of different blood drops.
I'd like to know more about that. I've seen a statement which says that blood was "leaking" from her mouth, but it's not clear to me if that means the blood was actually moving or if the person who made the statement just meant that it had leaked.
http://www.jeremybamber.com/jeremybamber7.htm
I've seen a picture of Sheila where the blood does look very red and new, but obviously I can't tell if that blood is moving or not.
Go to the post ' secrets EP didnt want you to see ', next to SC body there is different blood stains on the carpet , these are some of the photos Peter Sutherst the photo expert as examined . Once there is blood in two different places around the body the case against JB collapses !
They could be splatter from when the bullets went into her neck though. My point is that I'm not sure if the blood was moving from the wounds, which would indicate that she was killed later than they thought at first.
Are they sure that is Sheila's blood? Could it not be June's or Neville's?
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You are missing the point the blood on the carpet around SC is different in both photos , zoom in on the blood , two different photos two lots of different blood drops.
I don't see that. The first photo is too dark for me to see much anyway, but the little bit I can see looks pretty much the same as the second photo.
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Essex police carried out an investigation to find out why there appeared to be five (5) additional bullets which had been fired during the incident, since there were only 20 missing from the new box of ammunition which had been opened up by Jeremy on the previous evening (6th August 1985) in the kitchen. EP got a report from the ballistic expert, who confirmed that 20 of the crime scene bullet cases, only had one set of magazine markings upon them, and that the other five, all had double magazine markings upon them - which was consistent with these five (5) bullets having been loaded into the gun at some stage, being removed, and replaced again, before being fired...
EP satisfied themselves, that the five (5) bullets with the double magazine markings upon them, had already been inside the guns ammunition magazine, prior to Jeremy filling it up with additional new bullets on the evening of 6th August 1985. EP knew that the five bullets with the double magazine marks found on them, were already in the gun, before new bullets were put in - all the new bullets loaded into the gun only had one set of magazine markings upon them..
EP spoke to Jeremy about where the additional five bullets had originated from, and Jeremy told the police they were already in the gun before he put new bullets in...
Jeremy told the police that he had taken a new box of 50 .22 bullets, from the gun cupboard on the evening of the 6th August 1985, and removed the wrapping from the box, and that he loaded the ammunition magazine up, until it was fully loaded. The police found the wrapping which Jeremy told them he had removed from the new box of ammunition, on the kitchen worktop, when they examined the scene in the kitchen, and so EP were satisfied with Jeremy's explanation that he took bullets out of a new box of 50...
EP, nor the DPP, have ever challenged this as part of their case, and so I am afraid the facts regarding this are there for all to see, twenty new bullets missing from new box of ammunition, and twenty bullets which only had one lot of magazine marks upon them, and an additional five bullets which were already in the gun, and the existence of five double magazine marked bullets found at the scene - you do not need to be an Essex police detective (1985) to be able to work out the logistics relating to the implications of this...
The FACTS are there for all to see, EP and the DPP do not dispute this, and neither does Jeremy, or his legal team, or me, or anyone else, other than someone who might simply be out to cause some mischief, just for the sake of causing it...
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Right - so Jeremy said he had opened a new box of ammunition. Thanks for that. :D
Now I'll read the rest of your post. ;D
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Right - so Jeremy said he had opened a new box of ammunition. Thanks for that. :D
Now I'll read the rest of your post. ;D
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EP were satisfied that Jeremy had opened up a new box of 50 new bullets, on evening of 6th August 1985, because they only found 30 bullets on the kitchen worktop; 29 loose ones tipped out onto the worktop, and a solitary bullet, still in the ammunition box, along with the plastic wrapper next to the ammunition on the kitchen worktop, and that 25 bullets had been fired during the incident - since a new box of ammunition only contained 50 bullets, and twenty were missing, EP knew that five additional bullets used in the shootings originated from some other source, and they accepted that there must have been, and was, five bullets already in the gun before Jeremy started to load new bullets in from the new box of ammunition on the evening of 6th August 1985...
EP did not only accept Jeremy's word for it, they had hard facts to back up what he told them...
These five bullets which were already in the ammunition magazine, had all previously been loaded into the ammunition magazine, and removed, and been replaced, as a result of non use of the loaded rifle on a previous occasion, when the weapon may have been taken out with a view to shoot vermin around the farm, or a spot of target shooting, and any bullets in the gun had been taken out and out to one side, until the next time, the gun was taken out with a view to using it for similar or the same reasons...
EP spoke to Jeremy at length about what would normally happen if he had taken the gun out with a view to shooting it, and he had not used it, and Jeremy told them that there was one of two things that might happen, (1) he would remove bullets from the guns ammunition magazine, or he would simply remove the magazine clip from the weapon, detaching it from the gun, so that it could not be fired, unless bullets were added back into the ammunition magazine, or the ammunition clip with the bullets in, was clipped back onto the weapon...
EP were satisfied that the five bullets which had already been preloaded into the weapons ammunition magazine, could have been loaded twice into it, and fired once from it...
Furthermore, they were also satisfied that Jeremy had loaded new bullets into the ammunition magazine, from the new box of 50...
EP had reason to suspect, or doubt that the twenty (20) new bullets taken from the new box of ammunition, had been loaded more than once into the ammunition magazine, and EP accepted that all the bullets which had single magazine marks upon them, were in fact the 20 new bullets taken out of the box, at some stage, between evening of 6th, and morning of 7th August 1985...
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Right - so Jeremy said he had opened a new box of ammunition. Thanks for that. :D
Now I'll read the rest of your post. ;D
------------------------------------------
EP were satisfied that Jeremy had opened up a new box of 50 new bullets, on evening of 6th August 1985, because they only found 30 bullets on the kitchen worktop; 29 loose ones tipped out onto the worktop, and a solitary bullet, still in the ammunition box, along with the plastic wrapper next to the ammunition on the kitchen worktop, and that 25 bullets had been fired during the incident - since a new box of ammunition only contained 50 bullets, and twenty were missing, EP knew that five additional bullets used in the shootings originated from some other source, and they accepted that there must have been, and was, five bullets already in the gun before Jeremy started to load new bullets in from the new box of ammunition on the evening of 6th August 1985...
EP did not only accept Jeremy's word for it, they had hard facts to back up what he told them...
Right then, so the Appeal document was wrong because it said in there that Jeremy had said he put 8 to 10 bullets in the magazine. You say he told the police he filled up the magazine. You also say that double marked bullets were found. Why was that not looked into at the time by the defence?
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Even if one accepts that the first bullets fired were new, and that the next five were shot in a sequence:
2 in bedroom
2 in boys room
1 in kitchen
How does that indicate that Jeremy didn't do it? It makes it look haphazard of course, and it raises the question of whether or not Neville was up and down the stairs a lot, but how does that exonerate Jeremy?
I'd like to hear more about this idea that four bullets were planted in the bedroom or attributed to the bedroom. Why was that done, and where were they from? Also, is there any proof or is that just speculation because otherwise it doesn't make sense?
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Right - so Jeremy said he had opened a new box of ammunition. Thanks for that. :D
Now I'll read the rest of your post. ;D
------------------------------------------
EP were satisfied that Jeremy had opened up a new box of 50 new bullets, on evening of 6th August 1985, because they only found 30 bullets on the kitchen worktop; 29 loose ones tipped out onto the worktop, and a solitary bullet, still in the ammunition box, along with the plastic wrapper next to the ammunition on the kitchen worktop, and that 25 bullets had been fired during the incident - since a new box of ammunition only contained 50 bullets, and twenty were missing, EP knew that five additional bullets used in the shootings originated from some other source, and they accepted that there must have been, and was, five bullets already in the gun before Jeremy started to load new bullets in from the new box of ammunition on the evening of 6th August 1985...
EP did not only accept Jeremy's word for it, they had hard facts to back up what he told them...
Right then, so the Appeal document was wrong because it said in there that Jeremy had said he put 8 to 10 bullets in the magazine. You say he told the police he filled up the magazine. You also say that double marked bullets were found. Why was that not looked into at the time by the defence?
-------------------------------------------------------
EP accepted what Jeremy told them, because what they found out after making inquiries, was that everything which they quizzed Jeremy about, in so far as there were already bullets in the ammunition magazine, seemed to be borne out, and was acceptable. However, EP were also mindful that there could have been six bullets already in the guns ammunition magazine, before Jeremy put new bullets in, and that one of these six old bullets, was already situated inside the breach of the weapon, making for a total of eleven bullets being in the gun, by the time Jeremy had loaded new bullets into the gun, on the evening of 6th August 1985...
Six bullets which were already in the gun, and five new ones which Jeremy put into the gun from the new box, which I have been referring to...
If there were already five old bullets in the ammunition magazine, and one old bullet in its breach, when Jeremy put five new bullets in, the gun would have had the capacity to fire eleven bullets (11) from the first load of the gun, not ten(10) - EP were aware of this possible anomaly, but in general they accepted what Jeremy had told them, as being a truthful, and accurate answer...
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Inquiries made by EP established that six double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39 (b) were found at different occasions, around the inside of the farmhouse. I have previously referred to there only having been five double marked bullet cases found at the scene, but there were in truth a total of six, where two of these double marked bullet cases were originally given the exact same exhibit reference of DRH/39 (both found in the children's bedroom), along with another double marked bullet case, bearing the exhibit reference DRH/38...
I did not seek intentionally to mislead anyone by suggesting there were only five double marked bullet cases found at the scene, since, two of these double marked bullet cases, bore the exact same bullet exhibit reference DRH/39...
In addition, one of the double marked bullet cases, namely, DRH/4, was introduced to the main bedroom scenario, along with three other single marked bullet cases, DRH/1, DRH/2 and DRH/3, which must have been recovered from somewhere else at the scene, and displaced to the main bedroom, so that a case could be falsely set out for Ralph to have been shot four times non fatally in the bedroom, when he was not...
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Inquiries made by EP established that six double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39 (b) were found at different occasions, around the inside of the farmhouse. I have previously referred to there only having been five double marked bullet cases found at the scene, but there were in truth a total of six, where two of these doable marked bullet cases were originally given the exact same exhibit reference of DRH/39 (both found in the children's bedroom), along with another double marked bullet case, bearing the exhibit reference DRH/38...
I did not seek intentionally to mislead anyone by suggesting there were only five double marked bullet cases found at the scene, since, two of these double marked bullet cases bore the exact same bullet exhibit reference DRH/39...
Do you have an opinion why ?
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Inquiries made by EP established that six double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39 (b) were found at different occasions, around the inside of the farmhouse. I have previously referred to there only having been five double marked bullet cases found at the scene, but there were in truth a total of six, where two of these doable marked bullet cases were originally given the exact same exhibit reference of DRH/39 (both found in the children's bedroom), along with another double marked bullet case, bearing the exhibit reference DRH/38...
I did not seek intentionally to mislead anyone by suggesting there were only five double marked bullet cases found at the scene, since, two of these double marked bullet cases bore the exact same bullet exhibit reference DRH/39...
Do you have an opinion why ?
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Yes, but before I offer such an opinion, I would like to provide for everyone, diagrams which were drawn up by the police, which purport to show exactly where each of the bullet cases found in the main bedroom, children's bedroom, and kitchen were allegedly found, including the location for the six double marked bullet cases, (DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39 (b)), I have been speaking about...
Please click on images to enlarge...
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Right - so Jeremy said he had opened a new box of ammunition. Thanks for that. :D
Now I'll read the rest of your post. ;D
------------------------------------------
EP were satisfied that Jeremy had opened up a new box of 50 new bullets, on evening of 6th August 1985, because they only found 30 bullets on the kitchen worktop; 29 loose ones tipped out onto the worktop, and a solitary bullet, still in the ammunition box, along with the plastic wrapper next to the ammunition on the kitchen worktop, and that 25 bullets had been fired during the incident - since a new box of ammunition only contained 50 bullets, and twenty were missing, EP knew that five additional bullets used in the shootings originated from some other source, and they accepted that there must have been, and was, five bullets already in the gun before Jeremy started to load new bullets in from the new box of ammunition on the evening of 6th August 1985...
EP did not only accept Jeremy's word for it, they had hard facts to back up what he told them...
Right then, so the Appeal document was wrong because it said in there that Jeremy had said he put 8 to 10 bullets in the magazine. You say he told the police he filled up the magazine. You also say that double marked bullets were found. Why was that not looked into at the time by the defence?
-------------------------------------------------------
EP accepted what Jeremy told them, because what they found out after making inquiries, was that everything which they quizzed Jeremy about, in so far as there were already bullets in the ammunition magazine, seemed to be borne out, and was acceptable. However, EP were also mindful that there could have been six bullets already in the guns ammunition magazine, before Jeremy put new bullets in, and that one of these six old bullets, was already situated inside the breach of the weapon, making for a total of eleven bullets being in the gun, by the time Jeremy had loaded new bullets into the gun, on the evening of 6th August 1985...
Six bullets which were already in the gun, and five new ones which Jeremy put into the gun from the new box, which I have been referring to...
If there were already five old bullets in the ammunition magazine, and one old bullet in its breach, when Jeremy put five new bullets in, the gun would have had the capacity to fire eleven bullets (11) from the first load of the gun, not ten(10) - EP were aware of this possible anomaly, but in general they accepted what Jeremy had told them, as being a truthful, and accurate answer...
But that wasn't what Jeremy told them, not according to the Appeal document anyway. According to that, he told them that he loaded 8 to 10 bullets, and he didn't mention any bullets being already in there. Anyway, what did he tell his defence lawyers?
-
Inquiries made by EP established that six double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39 (b) were found at different occasions, around the inside of the farmhouse. I have previously referred to there only having been five double marked bullet cases found at the scene, but there were in truth a total of six, where two of these double marked bullet cases were originally given the exact same exhibit reference of DRH/39 (both found in the children's bedroom), along with another double marked bullet case, bearing the exhibit reference DRH/38...
I did not seek intentionally to mislead anyone by suggesting there were only five double marked bullet cases found at the scene, since, two of these double marked bullet cases, bore the exact same bullet exhibit reference DRH/39...
In addition, one of the double marked bullet cases, namely, DRH/4, was introduced to the main bedroom scenario, along with three other single marked bullet cases, DRH/1, DRH/2 and DRH/3, which must have been recovered from somewhere else at the scene, and displaced to the main bedroom, so that a case could be falsely set out for Ralph to have been shot four times non fatally in the bedroom, when he was not...
You keep saying that four bullets were planted in the bedroom, but where is the proof of that, and what was the motive?
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Right - so Jeremy said he had opened a new box of ammunition. Thanks for that. :D
Now I'll read the rest of your post. ;D
------------------------------------------
EP were satisfied that Jeremy had opened up a new box of 50 new bullets, on evening of 6th August 1985, because they only found 30 bullets on the kitchen worktop; 29 loose ones tipped out onto the worktop, and a solitary bullet, still in the ammunition box, along with the plastic wrapper next to the ammunition on the kitchen worktop, and that 25 bullets had been fired during the incident - since a new box of ammunition only contained 50 bullets, and twenty were missing, EP knew that five additional bullets used in the shootings originated from some other source, and they accepted that there must have been, and was, five bullets already in the gun before Jeremy started to load new bullets in from the new box of ammunition on the evening of 6th August 1985...
EP did not only accept Jeremy's word for it, they had hard facts to back up what he told them...
Right then, so the Appeal document was wrong because it said in there that Jeremy had said he put 8 to 10 bullets in the magazine. You say he told the police he filled up the magazine. You also say that double marked bullets were found. Why was that not looked into at the time by the defence?
-------------------------------------------------------
EP accepted what Jeremy told them, because what they found out after making inquiries, was that everything which they quizzed Jeremy about, in so far as there were already bullets in the ammunition magazine, seemed to be borne out, and was acceptable. However, EP were also mindful that there could have been six bullets already in the guns ammunition magazine, before Jeremy put new bullets in, and that one of these six old bullets, was already situated inside the breach of the weapon, making for a total of eleven bullets being in the gun, by the time Jeremy had loaded new bullets into the gun, on the evening of 6th August 1985...
Six bullets which were already in the gun, and five new ones which Jeremy put into the gun from the new box, which I have been referring to...
If there were already five old bullets in the ammunition magazine, and one old bullet in its breach, when Jeremy put five new bullets in, the gun would have had the capacity to fire eleven bullets (11) from the first load of the gun, not ten(10) - EP were aware of this possible anomaly, but in general they accepted what Jeremy had told them, as being a truthful, and accurate answer...
But that wasn't what Jeremy told them, not according to the Appeal document anyway. According to that, he told them that he loaded 8 to 10 bullets, and he didn't mention any bullets being already in there. Anyway, what did he tell his defence lawyers?
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When he was questioned by the police during the first part of the investigation, when they were treating it as four murders and a suicide (SC/688/85), Jeremy answered all their questions satisfactorily, and later upon being arrested on suspicion of murder, under caution and during interview, he answered similar questions - it is not clear by reference to the judgement from the court of appeal to which answers, and which occasion, they were referring to, when they said he told the police he loaded between 8 to 10 bullets into the gun. From the records in my possession, and from what I have seen, there is no mention of Jeremy ever putting as many as 8 to 10 bullets into the bullet magazine, and it becomes clear that the references in the court of appeal judgement are inaccurate and misleading...
EP would have been very suspicious if Jeremy had told them he put between 8 to 10 new bullets into the gun, because that would not have satisfied them as to where the five additional bullets which were fired during the incident had come from - Furthermore, the comments made in the judgement from the 2002 appeal, were never at risk of being corrected, since, once a judgement is made or produced, that is the end of the matter, and neither Jeremy or his legal team, would have had any opportunity to correct any mistakes, mentioned, or referred to in it. In any event, just because something is written in a judgement of appeal, it does not necessarily mean that it is true, since, such comments are only the opinions of those who construct the judgement...
Jeremy never said he put between 8 and 10 bullets into the guns ammunition magazine - anyone who says he did say that is wrong, and does not know the truth, and has never seen the record of interview and the answers he gave when the police questioned him about these features
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OK. I'm prepared to believe that the Appeal document could be wrong. I'll have a think about this new info you've provided. I still don't think you can know exactly the order of shooting for the first ten bullets though.
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By reference to the aforementioned police diagrams, the position and location of the six double marked bullet cases, can be verified:-
Three in Children's bedroom (DRH/38, DRH/39 (a) and DRH/39(b))
Two in Main bedroom (DRH/4 and DRH/8)
One in kitchen (DRH/19)
It now seems even more likely that by the time the shooter had shot and wounded June Bamber in the main bedroom (with five single marked bullets), and shot the children with three double marked bullets in the children's bedroom, and by the time that the shooter returned to the main bedroom doorway to shoot June with a further two double marked bullets, that if there had only been ten (10) bullets loaded into the gun during its first load, that the gun would have been empty of bullets by the time the shooter killed June in the region of the bedroom door...
If the gun was empty, the shooter would need to go downstairs to the kitchen to reload with bullets on the Kitchen worktop...
This was an ideal opportunity for Ralph to tackle Sheila, and for a struggle between them, to ensue...
Ralph appears to have been shot by a double marked bullet in the region of the kitchen, which could have been the one which Jeremy had removed from the breach, during the previous evening, which was subsequently reloaded into the guns ammunition magazine and fired at Ralph...
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OK. I'm prepared to believe that the Appeal document could be wrong. I'll have a think about this new info you've provided. I still don't think you can know exactly the order of shooting for the first ten bullets though.
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Yes, you can by reference to where the double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39(b) were found at the scene - five new bullets, with single marks upon them) must have been fired before these were discharged form the gun, and because June was shot and killed at the main bedroom door by way and use of two double marked bullets, it follows that she must have been shot five times already, whilst she had been laying in bed...
Three further double marked bullet cases, found in the children's bedroom, and the two double marked bullet cases found in the main bedroom, add up to a full load of ten (10) bullets that formed part of the first load of ten (10) bullets from the gun...
Simple mathematics...
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OK. I'm prepared to believe that the Appeal document could be wrong. I'll have a think about this new info you've provided. I still don't think you can know exactly the order of shooting for the first ten bullets though.
---------------------------------------
Yes, you can by reference to where the double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39(b) were found at the scene - five new bullets, with single marks upon them) must have been fired before these were discharged form the gun, and because June was shot and killed at the main bedroom door by way and use of two double marked bullets, it follows that she must have been shot five times already, whilst she had been laying in bed...
Three further double marked bullet cases, found in the children's bedroom, and the two double marked bullet cases found in the main bedroom, add up to a full load of ten (10) bullets that formed part of the first load of ten (10) bullets from the gun...
Simple mathematics...
It doesn't necessarily follow that June was shot five times first though. She might have been shot three times with new bullets, and twice with old ones, then shot twice again later after she was dead with the next set of ten bullets.
Have you thought about the possibility that the bullets already in the magazine were not double-marked, and that the killer loaded the gun with new ones, took some of them out again, and reloaded them?
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According to the drawing, one of the double-marked cartridges is on the bed and the other is near the door.
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OK. I'm prepared to believe that the Appeal document could be wrong. I'll have a think about this new info you've provided. I still don't think you can know exactly the order of shooting for the first ten bullets though.
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Yes, you can by reference to where the double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39(b) were found at the scene - five new bullets, with single marks upon them) must have been fired before these were discharged form the gun, and because June was shot and killed at the main bedroom door by way and use of two double marked bullets, it follows that she must have been shot five times already, whilst she had been laying in bed...
Three further double marked bullet cases, found in the children's bedroom, and the two double marked bullet cases found in the main bedroom, add up to a full load of ten (10) bullets that formed part of the first load of ten (10) bullets from the gun...
Simple mathematics...
It doesn't necessarily follow that June was shot five times first though. She might have been shot three times with new bullets, and twice with old ones, then shot twice again later after she was dead with the next set of ten bullets.
Have you thought about the possibility that the bullets already in the magazines were not double-marked, and that the killer loaded the gun with new ones, took some of them out again, and reloaded them?
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There were five separate bullet holes in the blanket on the bed, meaning June was shot five times in bed, before she got out of bed. It would be hardly likely that June remained in bed, un-shot whilst the shooter was shooting Ralph Bamber four times in the bedroom, because June would still have to be shot five times with single marked bullets, and twice more with double marked bullets, and the children shot with three double marked bullets, and Ralph to have been shot once downstairs by way of a double marked bullet - too many bullets to fit in gun, during first load of rifle for that sequence of events to have happened...
Everything appears to revolve around June being shot five times in bed with new bullets, and twice at the bedroom door by two old bullets, meaning seven bullets were used up from first load of gun in shooting June...
Three more double marked bullets in children's bedroom - making ten (10) bullets in total...
Gun empty at this stage?
Shooter needs to go down to the kitchen to reload with new bullets...
Ralph shot there, with a double marked bullet...
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OK. I'm prepared to believe that the Appeal document could be wrong. I'll have a think about this new info you've provided. I still don't think you can know exactly the order of shooting for the first ten bullets though.
---------------------------------------
Yes, you can by reference to where the double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39(b) were found at the scene - five new bullets, with single marks upon them) must have been fired before these were discharged form the gun, and because June was shot and killed at the main bedroom door by way and use of two double marked bullets, it follows that she must have been shot five times already, whilst she had been laying in bed...
Three further double marked bullet cases, found in the children's bedroom, and the two double marked bullet cases found in the main bedroom, add up to a full load of ten (10) bullets that formed part of the first load of ten (10) bullets from the gun...
Simple mathematics...
It doesn't necessarily follow that June was shot five times first though. She might have been shot three times with new bullets, and twice with old ones, then shot twice again later after she was dead with the next set of ten bullets.
Have you thought about the possibility that the bullets already in the magazines were not double-marked, and that the killer loaded the gun with new ones, took some of them out again, and reloaded them?
----------------------------------------------------------
There were five separate bullet holes in the blanket on the bed, meaning June was shot five times in bed, before she got out of bed. It would be hardly likely that June remained in bed, un-shot whilst the shooter was shooting Ralph Bamber four times in the bedroom, because June would still have to be shot five times with single marked bullets, and twice more with double marked bullets, and the children shot with three double marked bullets, and Ralph to have been shot once downstairs by way of a double marked bullet - too many bullets to fit in gun, during first load of rifle for that sequence of events to have happened...
Everything appears to revolve around June being shot five times in bed with new bullets, and twice at the bedroom door by two old bullets, meaning seven bullets were used up from first load of gun in shooting June...
Three more double marked bullets in children's bedroom - making ten (10) bullets in total...
Gun empty at this stage?
Shooter needs to go down to the kitchen to reload with new bullets...
Ralph shot there, with a double marked bullet...
According to you on another thread, June had four exit wounds, so how could there be five bullet holes in the blanket? Also, like I said, one of the double-marked ones is on the bed according to that drawing, so how does that fit in?
What about this possibility that the double-marked bullets were not the ones which were already in the magazine? The killer could have loaded new ones, taken some out for some reason - maybe they thought they weren't in straight or something. That could apply to any of the bullets, not just the first ten.
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OK. I'm prepared to believe that the Appeal document could be wrong. I'll have a think about this new info you've provided. I still don't think you can know exactly the order of shooting for the first ten bullets though.
---------------------------------------
Yes, you can by reference to where the double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39(b) were found at the scene - five new bullets, with single marks upon them) must have been fired before these were discharged form the gun, and because June was shot and killed at the main bedroom door by way and use of two double marked bullets, it follows that she must have been shot five times already, whilst she had been laying in bed...
Three further double marked bullet cases, found in the children's bedroom, and the two double marked bullet cases found in the main bedroom, add up to a full load of ten (10) bullets that formed part of the first load of ten (10) bullets from the gun...
Simple mathematics...
It doesn't necessarily follow that June was shot five times first though. She might have been shot three times with new bullets, and twice with old ones, then shot twice again later after she was dead with the next set of ten bullets.
Have you thought about the possibility that the bullets already in the magazines were not double-marked, and that the killer loaded the gun with new ones, took some of them out again, and reloaded them?
----------------------------------------------------------
There were five separate bullet holes in the blanket on the bed, meaning June was shot five times in bed, before she got out of bed. It would be hardly likely that June remained in bed, un-shot whilst the shooter was shooting Ralph Bamber four times in the bedroom, because June would still have to be shot five times with single marked bullets, and twice more with double marked bullets, and the children shot with three double marked bullets, and Ralph to have been shot once downstairs by way of a double marked bullet - too many bullets to fit in gun, during first load of rifle for that sequence of events to have happened...
Everything appears to revolve around June being shot five times in bed with new bullets, and twice at the bedroom door by two old bullets, meaning seven bullets were used up from first load of gun in shooting June...
Three more double marked bullets in children's bedroom - making ten (10) bullets in total...
Gun empty at this stage?
Shooter needs to go down to the kitchen to reload with new bullets...
Ralph shot there, with a double marked bullet...
According to you on another thread, June had four exit wounds, so how could there be five bullet holes in the blanket? Also, like I said, one of the double-marked ones is on the bed according to that drawing, so how does that fit in?
What about this possibility that the double-marked bullets were not the ones which were already in the magazine? The killer could have loaded new ones, taken some out for some reason - maybe they thought they weren't in straight or something. That could apply to any of the bullets, not just the first ten.
----------------------------------------
Too complicated, best explanations are almost always the truest...
Five double marked bullets loaded already in ammunition magazine, followed by five new bullets which Jeremy put there from the new box of 50...
Sheila was the shooter, she shot June, shot the kids, and then went onto shoot Ralph downstairs in the kitchen for the first time...
Ralph and Sheila, struggled and injured each other...
There was ample opportunity for such a struggle because gun had no ammunition left inside it, by that stage...
Ralph was not shot at all during the discharge of the first ten (10) bullets from the gun - there is not even a speck of his blood at all found in the main bedroom, so forget anything to do with the suggestion that Ralph was shot four times in the bedroom, it didn't happen, and there is no independent evidence to support such a suggestion. Additional bullet cases, DRH/1, DRH/2, DRH/3 and DRH/4, in main bedroom, was just a ploy adopted to wrongly suggest that Ralph was shot in the bedroom, but as I say, there is no blood at all from Ralph found there...
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OK. I'm prepared to believe that the Appeal document could be wrong. I'll have a think about this new info you've provided. I still don't think you can know exactly the order of shooting for the first ten bullets though.
---------------------------------------
Yes, you can by reference to where the double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39(b) were found at the scene - five new bullets, with single marks upon them) must have been fired before these were discharged form the gun, and because June was shot and killed at the main bedroom door by way and use of two double marked bullets, it follows that she must have been shot five times already, whilst she had been laying in bed...
Three further double marked bullet cases, found in the children's bedroom, and the two double marked bullet cases found in the main bedroom, add up to a full load of ten (10) bullets that formed part of the first load of ten (10) bullets from the gun...
Simple mathematics...
It doesn't necessarily follow that June was shot five times first though. She might have been shot three times with new bullets, and twice with old ones, then shot twice again later after she was dead with the next set of ten bullets.
Have you thought about the possibility that the bullets already in the magazines were not double-marked, and that the killer loaded the gun with new ones, took some of them out again, and reloaded them?
----------------------------------------------------------
There were five separate bullet holes in the blanket on the bed, meaning June was shot five times in bed, before she got out of bed. It would be hardly likely that June remained in bed, un-shot whilst the shooter was shooting Ralph Bamber four times in the bedroom, because June would still have to be shot five times with single marked bullets, and twice more with double marked bullets, and the children shot with three double marked bullets, and Ralph to have been shot once downstairs by way of a double marked bullet - too many bullets to fit in gun, during first load of rifle for that sequence of events to have happened...
Everything appears to revolve around June being shot five times in bed with new bullets, and twice at the bedroom door by two old bullets, meaning seven bullets were used up from first load of gun in shooting June...
Three more double marked bullets in children's bedroom - making ten (10) bullets in total...
Gun empty at this stage?
Shooter needs to go down to the kitchen to reload with new bullets...
Ralph shot there, with a double marked bullet...
According to you on another thread, June had four exit wounds, so how could there be five bullet holes in the blanket? Also, like I said, one of the double-marked ones is on the bed according to that drawing, so how does that fit in?
What about this possibility that the double-marked bullets were not the ones which were already in the magazine? The killer could have loaded new ones, taken some out for some reason - maybe they thought they weren't in straight or something. That could apply to any of the bullets, not just the first ten.
----------------------------------------
Too complicated, best explanations are almost always the truest...
Five double marked bullets loaded already in ammunition magazine, followed by five new bullets which Jeremy put there from the new box of 50...
Sheila was the shooter, she shot June, shot the kids, and then went onto shoot Ralph downstairs in the kitchen for the first time...
Ralph and Sheila, struggled and injured each other...
There was ample opportunity for such a struggle because gun had no ammunition left inside it, by that stage...
Ralph was not shot at all during the discharge of the first ten (10) bullets from the gun - there is not even a speck of his blood at all found in the main bedroom, so forget anything to do with the suggestion that Ralph was shot four times in the bedroom, it didn't happen, and there is no independent evidence to support such a suggestion. Additional bullet cases, DRH/1, DRH/2, DRH/3 and DRH/4, in main bedroom, was just a ploy adopted to wrongly suggest that Ralph was shot in the bedroom, but as I say, there is no blood at all from Ralph found there...
But that's just your theory - it's not proven. What do you mean Neville wasn't shot during the discharge of the first ten bullets? You said he was shot with the tenth bullet before.
Please tell me why the police would pretend that four cartridges had been found in the bedroom if they weren't. Why would the police want anyone to think that Neville was shot in the bedroom?
Is there a report anywhere about where blood was found?
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OK. I'm prepared to believe that the Appeal document could be wrong. I'll have a think about this new info you've provided. I still don't think you can know exactly the order of shooting for the first ten bullets though.
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Yes, you can by reference to where the double marked bullet cases, DRH/4, DRH/8, DRH/19, DRH/38, DRH/39(a) and DRH/39(b) were found at the scene - five new bullets, with single marks upon them) must have been fired before these were discharged form the gun, and because June was shot and killed at the main bedroom door by way and use of two double marked bullets, it follows that she must have been shot five times already, whilst she had been laying in bed...
Three further double marked bullet cases, found in the children's bedroom, and the two double marked bullet cases found in the main bedroom, add up to a full load of ten (10) bullets that formed part of the first load of ten (10) bullets from the gun...
Simple mathematics...
It doesn't necessarily follow that June was shot five times first though. She might have been shot three times with new bullets, and twice with old ones, then shot twice again later after she was dead with the next set of ten bullets.
Have you thought about the possibility that the bullets already in the magazines were not double-marked, and that the killer loaded the gun with new ones, took some of them out again, and reloaded them?
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There were five separate bullet holes in the blanket on the bed, meaning June was shot five times in bed, before she got out of bed. It would be hardly likely that June remained in bed, un-shot whilst the shooter was shooting Ralph Bamber four times in the bedroom, because June would still have to be shot five times with single marked bullets, and twice more with double marked bullets, and the children shot with three double marked bullets, and Ralph to have been shot once downstairs by way of a double marked bullet - too many bullets to fit in gun, during first load of rifle for that sequence of events to have happened...
Everything appears to revolve around June being shot five times in bed with new bullets, and twice at the bedroom door by two old bullets, meaning seven bullets were used up from first load of gun in shooting June...
Three more double marked bullets in children's bedroom - making ten (10) bullets in total...
Gun empty at this stage?
Shooter needs to go down to the kitchen to reload with new bullets...
Ralph shot there, with a double marked bullet...
According to you on another thread, June had four exit wounds, so how could there be five bullet holes in the blanket? Also, like I said, one of the double-marked ones is on the bed according to that drawing, so how does that fit in?
What about this possibility that the double-marked bullets were not the ones which were already in the magazine? The killer could have loaded new ones, taken some out for some reason - maybe they thought they weren't in straight or something. That could apply to any of the bullets, not just the first ten.
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Too complicated, best explanations are almost always the truest...
Five double marked bullets loaded already in ammunition magazine, followed by five new bullets which Jeremy put there from the new box of 50...
Sheila was the shooter, she shot June, shot the kids, and then went onto shoot Ralph downstairs in the kitchen for the first time...
Ralph and Sheila, struggled and injured each other...
There was ample opportunity for such a struggle because gun had no ammunition left inside it, by that stage...
Ralph was not shot at all during the discharge of the first ten (10) bullets from the gun - there is not even a speck of his blood at all found in the main bedroom, so forget anything to do with the suggestion that Ralph was shot four times in the bedroom, it didn't happen, and there is no independent evidence to support such a suggestion. Additional bullet cases, DRH/1, DRH/2, DRH/3 and DRH/4, in main bedroom, was just a ploy adopted to wrongly suggest that Ralph was shot in the bedroom, but as I say, there is no blood at all from Ralph found there...
But that's just your theory - it's not proven. What do you mean Neville wasn't shot during the discharge of the first ten bullets? You said he was shot with the tenth bullet before.
Please tell me why the police would pretend that four cartridges had been found in the bedroom if they weren't. Why would the police want anyone to think that Neville was shot in the bedroom?
Is there a report anywhere about where blood was found?
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Sorry, but it is proven, and is provable...
Ralph was shot in the kitchen, by reference to the tenth, (exhibit label), double marked bullet case, by a reliance upon the tenth exhibit mark (DRH/19) for the crime scene bullets, that can be associated to the first load of the gun. DRH/39, was two double marked bullet cases, found in the Children's bedroom, bearing the same exhibit reference, and so it depends which way you refer to the bullet cases from the first load of the ammunition magazine, if you choose to refer to the number of exhibit references, there were ten (10) different ones, but eleven (11) actual bullet cases...
If you are not bright enough to understand the difference, that can't be helped...
On the other hand, if you chose to play games by nit picking, then good luck, but I am not entertained by it. I have given you my answer to your question, which may be different to what I said previously, because when that was spoken about, it was in relation to another question, or just a general point. You have tried to imply that I am saying one thing one minute and something entirely different the next, but the truth of the matter is, that although on the face of it, it does look like that, the truth of the matter has been explained by me, on the basis outlined, above.
There is clear evidence that the first ten (10/11) bullets which were fired during the shootings, were bullets which were directed at June Bamber (7) and the children (3), and Once (1) to Ralph Bamber (downstairs in the kitchen), which you can choose to believe in, or ignore, you are entitled to have an opinion, like everybody else...
I can only report the FACTS, which is evidence, whether you, or anybody else, suggests is not evidence...
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I'm sorry but you have proved nothing to me, except that five bullets were double marked. You can't prove when they were loaded and you can't prove who they were fired at first.
If you think that asking for proof when a man's life is at stake is "nitpicking" - well that's up to you.
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I'm sorry but you have proved nothing to me, except that five bullets were double marked. You can't prove when they were loaded and you can't prove who they were fired at first.
If you think that asking for proof when a man's life is at stake is "nitpicking" - well that's up to you.
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I do not like your attitude, and if you continue to try and make personal attacks upon me, without justification, I will refuse to correspond with you, or answer your mischievous posts and comments...
Contrary to what you are suggesting, I do have proof to back up everything I have been saying - you only have opinions like everybody else, everything you say is not proof, or evidence, to disprove the things which I choose to speak about...
I can prove everything I have been saying, can you?
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I'm sorry but you have proved nothing to me, except that five bullets were double marked. You can't prove when they were loaded and you can't prove who they were fired at first.
If you think that asking for proof when a man's life is at stake is "nitpicking" - well that's up to you.
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I do not like your attitude, and if you continue to try and make personal attacks upon me, without justification, I will refuse to correspond with you, or answer your mischievous posts and comments...
Contrary to what you are suggesting, I do have proof to back up everything I have been saying - you only have opinions like everybody else, everything you say is not proof, or evidence, to disprove the things which I choose to speak about...
I can prove everything I have been saying, can you?
I don't really like people presenting opinions as fact. You posted your proof and I saw problems with it, which you have ignored. It's you who attacked me actually.
I'm still waiting for you to decide whether the police log was in court or not, but you ignored that as well.
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I'm sorry but you have proved nothing to me, except that five bullets were double marked. You can't prove when they were loaded and you can't prove who they were fired at first.
If you think that asking for proof when a man's life is at stake is "nitpicking" - well that's up to you.
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I do not like your attitude, and if you continue to try and make personal attacks upon me, without justification, I will refuse to correspond with you, or answer your mischievous posts and comments...
Contrary to what you are suggesting, I do have proof to back up everything I have been saying - you only have opinions like everybody else, everything you say is not proof, or evidence, to disprove the things which I choose to speak about...
I can prove everything I have been saying, can you?
I don't really like people presenting opinions as fact. You posted your proof and I saw problems with it, which you have ignored. It's you who attacked me actually.
I'm still waiting for you to decide whether the police log was in court or not, but you ignored that as well.
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I cannot allow you to make this discussion board into a personal slanging match - I am not responding to anything you want to speak to me about from now on, and any further abuse and mischievous comments I will consider removing your posts altogether...
Good luck with your own opinions on the case...
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I'm sorry but you have proved nothing to me, except that five bullets were double marked. You can't prove when they were loaded and you can't prove who they were fired at first.
If you think that asking for proof when a man's life is at stake is "nitpicking" - well that's up to you.
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I do not like your attitude, and if you continue to try and make personal attacks upon me, without justification, I will refuse to correspond with you, or answer your mischievous posts and comments...
Contrary to what you are suggesting, I do have proof to back up everything I have been saying - you only have opinions like everybody else, everything you say is not proof, or evidence, to disprove the things which I choose to speak about...
I can prove everything I have been saying, can you?
I don't really like people presenting opinions as fact. You posted your proof and I saw problems with it, which you have ignored. It's you who attacked me actually.
I'm still waiting for you to decide whether the police log was in court or not, but you ignored that as well.
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I cannot allow you to make this discussion board into a personal slanging match - I am not responding to anything you want to speak to me about from now on, and any further abuse and mischievous comments I will consider removing your posts altogether...
Good luck with your own opinions on the case...
Fine then. If you want to remove me and my posts, feel free. If this is a site where one has to believe everything which points to Jeremy's innocence without proof, and ignores everything which does not, then it's biased, and there's not much point me posting here anyway.
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From a prvious thread all I can see is that you state Jeremy's statement was that he filled the magazine to carry 10 bullets.. of which there was already 5 or 6 bullets present and that the Police excepted this statement.
If my paragraph above is a good description of events then I don't see that as PROVEN FACT. Just a statement made by the accussed and excepted by the Police because they see no reason to doubt it.
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From a prvious thread all I can see is that Jeremy's statement was that he filled the magazine to carry 10 bullets.. of which there was already 5 or 6 bullets present and that the Police excepted this statement.
If my paragraph above is a good description of events then I don't see that as PROVEN FACT. Just a statement made by the accussed and excepted by the Police because they see no reason to doubt it.
Even if Jeremy did do that, I don't see how it's proof that the bullets already in the magazine were the double-marked ones. As I understand it, they become double-marked if they are loaded and then taken out and put back in again. That tells me nothing about where the double-marked were in the magazine or when they were loaded.
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Yes.. that's my thoughts... the only reference I can find about it is what I posted above.. that Mike said Jeremy's statement was that he filled the magazine to carry 10 bullets.. of which there was already 5 or 6 bullets present and that the Police excepted this statement.
Its a statement that is acceptted
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Yes.. that's my thoughts... the only reference I can find about it is what I posted above.. that Mike said Jeremy's statement was that he filled the magazine to carry 10 bullets.. of which there was already 5 or 6 bullets present and that the Police excepted this statement.
Its a statement that is acceptted
If there were 25 shots, and there were 20 bullets missing from a new box of bullets, I can accept that 5 bullets were already in the magazine. What I can't see is how anyone knows that these were the double-marked bullets.
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Yes.. that's my thoughts... the only reference I can find about it is what I posted above.. that Mike said Jeremy's statement was that he filled the magazine to carry 10 bullets.. of which there was already 5 or 6 bullets present and that the Police excepted this statement.
Its a statement that is acceptted
If there were 25 shots, and there were 20 bullets missing from a new box of bullets, I can accept that 5 bullets were already in the magazine. What I can't see is how anyone knows that these were the double-marked bullets.
I don't so much dispute them being double marked... just that its only Jeremys statement and accpetance of the Police of that statement. There is no evidence that the bullets that were in the magazine after Jeremy left it the night before, stayed in that order in the magazine... Its quite possible that if Sheila was the killer she may have removed the bullets to count how many were in the magazine. Wth her being a relative novice in gun terms she might not be able to tell how many shots were already in the magazine. Did the magazine have any visual indicator to inform the user of bullets left in magazine.
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Ballistic Experts Statement
Please click on image to enlarge...
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My problem with these double-marked bullets is that they were allegedly found in three different rooms. That conjures up an image of someone running around an awful lot rather than staying in one place and shooting each person several times before they moved on to the next.
Let's just say that the double-marked bullets were the second five bullets to be fired.
I can just about accept that the killer shot June first with single-marked bullets when she was in bed, then twice with double-marked bullets after she got out of bed and killed her.
The problem with that is that one of the double-market cartridges was found on June's bed if the drawing is accurate, so how did that happen?
Then the killer went to the boys' room and shot them once each with double-marked bullets.
All this time Neville must have been in the kitchen, so the killer went down and found him and shot him once with a double-marked bullet. Then they had to reload.
The sticking point with that is that Neville is supposed to have been shot in the bedroom before he was shot in the kitchen. It's been suggested that he was not, and I'm prepared to consider that but I do need to know why the police would move four bullets into the bedroom and pretend they found them there, and if there's any evidence they did that.
At some point, the killer went back to the boys' bedroom and shot them a further six times. Why?
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Yes.. that's my thoughts... the only reference I can find about it is what I posted above.. that Mike said Jeremy's statement was that he filled the magazine to carry 10 bullets.. of which there was already 5 or 6 bullets present and that the Police excepted this statement.
Its a statement that is acceptted
If there were 25 shots, and there were 20 bullets missing from a new box of bullets, I can accept that 5 bullets were already in the magazine. What I can't see is how anyone knows that these were the double-marked bullets.
I don't so much dispute them being double marked... just that its only Jeremys statement and accpetance of the Police of that statement. There is no evidence that the bullets that were in the magazine after Jeremy left it the night before, stayed in that order in the magazine... Its quite possible that if Sheila was the killer she may have removed the bullets to count how many were in the magazine. Wth her being a relative novice in gun terms she might not be able to tell how many shots were already in the magazine. Did the magazine have any visual indicator to inform the user of bullets left in magazine.
There's nothing to indicate that the double-marked bullets were in the first magazine-load. Perhaps when the killer reloaded, they put some bullets in crookedly and had to take some out and back in again. That could mean that the double-marked bullets were in the second or third load - or a mixture of the two, and they weren't necessarily next to each other in the magazine.
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Crime Scene Bullet Information
Please click on image to enlarge...
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Conclusions of Ballistic expert
Malcolm Fletcher, ballistic expert, examined the batch of crime scene ammunition, from, and after 20th September 1985, and concluded that he could only positively link, 15 of the 25 bullets, as definitely having been fired via the Bamber rifle (defined as the .22 anshulz rifle). He was unable to associate another ten (10) crime scene bullets, as having been fired via the Bamber rifle, to the exclusion of all other weapons...
This leaves it open to the suggestion, that a second firearm could have, or did fire, these other ten (10) bullets during the incident...
However...
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Conclusions of Ballistic expert
Malcolm Fletcher, ballistic expert, examined the batch of crime scene ammunition, from, and after 20th September 1985, and concluded that he could only positively link, 15 of the 25 bullets, as definitely having been fired via the Bamber rifle (defined as the .22 anshulz rifle). He was unable to associate another ten (10) crime scene bullets, as having been fired via the Bamber rifle, to the exclusion of all other weapons...
This leaves it open to the suggestion, that a second firearm could have, or did fire, these other ten (10) bullets during the incident...
However...
Wasn't that because a lot of the bullets were not complete though?
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Bullet cases
The ballistic expert, examined the 25 bullet cases which allegedly formed part and parcel of the batch of crime scene ammunition, and found marks upon them, which were compared against marks found upon control ammunition fired via the Bamber rifle, during official test firings of the said weapon, and control ammunition, on and after 20th September 1985...
These test firings became known as "The official test firings", and Fletcher concluded that all 25 of these bullet cases, had at some stage been loaded into the magazine of the weapon, fired, and ejected from the gun...
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Overall conclusions
Fletcher concluded that the 25 wounds inflicted upon the five victims, were all committed by bullets which had all been fired via the Bamber rifle, based upon the fact that all 25 of the bullet cases, which he examined, during, and after the official test firing of the gun, had all been loaded and fired, and ejected from it...
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Bullet cases
The ballistic expert, examined the 25 bullet cases which allegedly formed part and parcel of the batch of crime scene ammunition, and found marks upon them, which were compared against marks found upon control ammunition fired via the Bamber rifle, during official test firings of the said weapon, and control ammunition, on and after 20th September 1985...
These test firings became known as "The official test firings", and Fletcher concluded that all 25 of these bullet cases, had at some stage been loaded into the magazine of the weapon, fired, and ejected from the gun...
So he was saying that all the 25 bullets were fired from the same rifle.
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Possible Contradiction
The conclusions arrived at by the ballistic expert, regarding these matters, were problematic...
There were ten (10) bullets which he could not link or associate to the Bamber rifle, yet all 25 bullet cases which he says he examined, had been loaded and fired via the Bamber rifle, before being ejected at the scene - thereby allowing him to conclude that the 25 wounds inflicted upon the five victims had all been caused by 25 bullets fired from the same gun...
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False Declaration made by Ballistics expert
A witness statement exists in which the ballistic expert, Malcolm Fletcher states that he was not aware when the Bamber riffle, had last been fired prior to the occasion when he examined it, and test fired it, prior to the 20th September 1985, during the official test firing of the rifle, and control bullets...
Yet despite this claim...
Lab' records show that there was an earlier test firing of the said weapon, and control bullets, which we now know to have taken place on or around 11th September 1985...
At, on, and after this date (11th September 1985) and before 19th September 1985, a total of eleven (11) bullet cases had been examined, by checking markings found on control bullet cases, which had been loaded and fired an ejected from the Bamber rifle, on 11th September 1985, with a view to establishing if marks found on control bullet cases loaded, fired and ejected from the Bamber rifle, matched those found on these original 11 bullet cases, under examination and review, between 11th and 19th September 1985...
All of this information was contained in "General Examination Reports" for each of these 11 individual bullet cases, which were examined, prior to 20th September 1985...
These eleven bullet cases, were examined as part of tests carried out with the Bamber rifle, and control ammunition, which have become known as "THE UNOFFICIAL TEST FIRINGS OF THE BAMBER RIFLE AND CONTROL AMMUNITION"
Malcolm Fletcher's. signature. appears on all eleven (11) of these General examination records, and so despite him stating that prior to the 20th September 1985, that he did not know, when the Bamber rifle had last been fired, prior to the official test firings of the same weapon, with control ammunition, on 20th September 1985 - he lied...
Furthermore, on and after 20th September 1985, Fletcher did not carry out any examination, or make any comparison checks against any markings found on such bullet cases, of this eleven (11) bullet cases - so, he did know when the Bamber rifle had last been fired prior to 20th September 1985, because his signature appears on each of the "General Examination Records" for those eleven bullet cases...
Why and for what reason, did the ballistic expert lie about these matters?
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mike/kaldin the reader is sorry to read of the displeasures that seem to exist it is possible that you are both correct in your comments as to sequence of the five double marked bullit cases subject to further information requested.
Firstly mike your posting so far have been without question in content and comment as to be creditable,The reader can also understand where Kaldin is coming from but to suggest that Shelia Caffell may have unloaded the magazine and reload as to pursue a bullit count that would create 10 double marked bullits at best or five tripple and five double marked cases,for the time being study the bullit weight descriptions of which the reader is sure you have done Mike...
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mike/kaldin the reader is sorry to read of the displeasures that seem to exist it is possible that you are both correct in your comments as to sequence of the five double marked bullit cases subject to further information requested.
Firstly mike your posting so far have been without question in content and comment as to be creditable,The reader can also understand where Kaldin is coming from but to suggest that Shelia Caffell may have unloaded the magazine and reload as to pursue a bullit count that would create 10 double marked bullits at best or five tripple and five double marked cases,for the time being study the bullit weight descriptions of which the reader is sure you have done Mike...
I didn't say the whole magazine had been loaded and reloaded. I know that didn't happen otherwise there would have been ten double-marked bullets. I do think it's possible that some bullets were taken back out when being loaded though and put back in again. I said that might have occurred because they were put in crookedly.
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Failure to Link any Crime scene bullet Cases to Crime scene bullets
No work was carried out, or conducted, with a view of trying to match any of the 25 bullet cases, to any of the 25 bullets, which all formed part and parcel of the batch of crime scene ammunition...
It should have been possible, to link or associate these bullet cases, with the corresponding bullets, by reference to crimping marks, and the quality of gun powder found on the base of the bullets, as opposed to gun powder for in the bullet cases - but no such work was ever carried out...
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Possible Discrepancies
Only 15 of the 25 crime scene bullet cases could be linked to the Bamber rifle, leaving ten others which may have been fired via another gun...
It is not clear, that if all 25 bullet cases which had been loaded and fired and ejected via th Bamber rifle, were actually loaded and fired and ejected during the incident when five victims all lost their lives, or if some of these bullet cases, were loaded, and fired, and ejected, during unofficial test firings which took place at the lab' on or between 11th and 19th September 1985...
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If more than one gun was used I would think that would point to Jeremy and an accomplice. A dangerous road to go down really ...
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If more than one gun was used I would think that would point to Jeremy and an accomplice. A dangerous road to go down really ...
IMO it doesn't point to that at all - it was the police who made out there was only one gun involved, not Jeremy. There were several guns in the house/guns removed/guns returned.
I think it would point to that. Why would Sheila use two guns?
I see nothing to suggest that all the bullets did not come from the one rifle. Some could not be attributed to the rifle but they were mostly ones which were not whole. I don't really buy any implication that some cartridges were planted to make it look as if they came from one gun.
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MDF/100 - 14 bullet cases
In 2003, Jeremy was informed that there still existed no less than 14 bullet cases at Huntingdon Lab', which could be linked to the investigation - yet, 1n 1996, Essex police are supposed to have destroyed all of the crime scene ammunition, even though they they were instructed not to do so...
The only other exhibit, which the ballistic expert, Malcolm Fletcher produced during th case, was a cloth pull-through, alleging to have been obtained from the barrel of the Bamber rifle, shortly after the official test firing of it, around 20th September 1985, which bore the exhibit reference, MDF/1...
Trouble is...
The Bamber rifle had already been test fired, when control bullets had been fired via it, as part of the unofficial test firings, which Fletcher knew had been performed on or about the 11th September 1985. Fletcher therefore, deliberately misled the court when he referred to the significance of the cloth pull-through MDF/1), by falsely claiming that he h did not know when the last time the Bamber rifle had been fired prior to him performing the cloth pull-through test...
Fletcher knew that there had very recently been an unofficial test firing of the Bamber rifle, a matter of days before he had performed the cloth pull-through test (MDF/1) and that at such times, any blood which may have been present inside the barrel of th Bamber rifle, would almost certainly have been blasted out of the barrel as a result of control ammunition being blasted out through it...
Fletcher claim that the cloth pull-through was clean, and that if there had been any blood found inside the silencer it would have showed up on the cloth, was designed to aid the prosecutions claim that the gun must have been fitted with a silencer at the time of the shootings...
There is no record at all of any other exhibits bearing th exhibit references, MDF/2 to MDF/99, respectively...
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If more than one gun was used I would think that would point to Jeremy and an accomplice. A dangerous road to go down really ...
IMO it doesn't point to that at all - it was the police who made out there was only one gun involved, not Jeremy. There were several guns in the house/guns removed/guns returned.
I think it would point to that. Why would Sheila use two guns?
I see nothing to suggest that all the bullets did not come from the one rifle. Some could not be attributed to the rifle but they were mostly ones which were not whole. I don't really buy any implication that some cartridges were planted to make it look as if they came from one gun.
You said "If more than one gun was used I would think that would point to Jeremy and an accomplice"
Why Jeremy? What evidence do you have to support this? And why is it impossible for Sheila to have used 2 guns?
If two guns were used, that would raise the question that two people were there - that seems obvious to me. I can't see Sheila going mad with two or more guns - one would be bad enough.
I'm not suggesting there were two guns used, it's others who are suggesting that. I don't think there were. I'm just saying that claiming there were two guns won't do Jeremy any favours.
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Stats'
Please click on image to enlarge...
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Lots of info there... good post.
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Those maps of the bullet placings really do show a frenzied illogical attack taking place... its hard to imagine a sane person ding damage like that even if they wanted to commit murder.
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But IF two guns were used, what would that have to do with Jeremy Bamber? And I'm not saying that if Sheila used two guns, if she used any at all, that she would have used them at the same time
The thing about this crime is that it was either Jeremy or Sheila who committed the murders. There's no question of anyone else doing it. I can't imagine why Sheila would use two guns, so that would leave Jeremy and A N Other wouldn't it?
Anyway, I don't think that more than one gun was used - yet. I haven't seen any evidence of that, and I can't see why the police would cover that up.
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The number of shots to the heads of the victims gives a sense of "execution" to the shootings. Who would shoot sleeping children a number of times in the head with all shots being fatal........... This appears to be very cold and calculated. It seems the only resistance in terms of other body shots appearing on the victims are to both Neville and June. Both these, if I have read the stats correctly, had also received fatal head shots.
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But IF two guns were used, what would that have to do with Jeremy Bamber? And I'm not saying that if Sheila used two guns, if she used any at all, that she would have used them at the same time
The thing about this crime is that it was either Jeremy or Sheila who committed the murders. There's no question of anyone else doing it. I can't imagine why Sheila would use two guns, so that would leave Jeremy and A N Other wouldn't it?
Anyway, I don't think that more than one gun was used - yet. I haven't seen any evidence of that, and I can't see why the police would cover that up.
Well, I don't know if two guns were used or not, but if Sheila was bleeding at 10am, it wasn't Jeremy or an accomplice was it?
Well that's a different issue entirely.
It's not been established for sure that she was bleeding at 10am - yet.
I don't know why anyone is trying to introduce the possibility of more than one gun being used.
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The number of shots to the heads of the victims gives a sense of "execution" to the shootings. Who would shoot sleeping children a number of times in the head with all shots being fatal........... This appears to be very cold and calculated. It seems the only resistance in terms of other body shots appearing on the victims are to both Neville and June. Both these, if I have read the stats correctly, had also received fatal head shots.
Yes. Whoever did it was either in such a state that they didn't care but they still had a good aim, or they were very cold hearted indeed.
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Police found Sheila's fingerprints on a number of guns at the scene
The following weapons which were found at the scene, were fingerprinted, and Sheila Caffells fingerprints were found on at least two different weapons, namely a 12 bore shotgun which the police recovered from inside the gun cupboard at whf on the morning of the shootings, and the Bamber rifle, which the police moved about, onto and off the body of Sheila...
A third weapon which the police are also known to have taken possession of, was a .22 air rifle - upon which it is also understood they found or lifted the fingerprints of Sheila Caffell...
For someone who has been portrayed as having no interest at all in guns, to be pondered is what she was doing carrying, or holding any of the aforementioned weapons, and more importantly, it begs the question, at what stage, did she handle all of these guns, at the scene?
Please click on image to enlarge...
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Police found Sheila's fingerprints on a number of guns at the scene
The following weapons which were found at the scene, were fingerprinted, and Sheila Caffells fingerprints were found on at least two different weapons, namely a 12 bore shotgun which the police recovered from inside the gun cupboard at whf on the morning of the shootings, and the Bamber rifle, which the police moved about, onto and off the body of Sheila...
A third weapon which the police are also known to have taken possession of, was a .22 air rifle - upon which it is also understood they found or lifted the fingerprints of Sheila Caffell...
For someone who has been portrayed as having no interest at all in guns, to be pondered is what she was doing carrying, or holding any of the aforementioned weapons, and more importantly, it begs the question, at what stage, did she handle all of these guns, at the scene?
I think it was one or more of the relatives who said she had no interest in guns, but I don't see what they would know about that, so I discounted that anyway.
I discount the shotgun as it was found in a cupboard and clearly the bullets didn't come from a shotgun. That does make me wonder though - was the shotgun in the same cupboard as silencer? If so, you'd think the police would have taken everything with them including the silencer.
Don't know much about air rifles. Where was it found exactly?
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Officers report regarding Shooting incident downstairs
Essex police refuse to release details of an officers report, relating to a shooting incident downstairs at the scene...
To which shooting incident, this report actually refers is in dispute, as we speak, but it is known that someone discharged a 12 bore shotgun in the vicinity of whf at about 10 - 10:15pm, on the evening 6th August 1985, and that the police seized the 12 bore shotgun, from the gun cupboard at the scene, and a solitary (spent) 12 bore shotgun cartridge case, from inside the house...
In addition, police obtained a witness statement from a local resident who states that he heard a shotgun blast coming from the general direction of whf, at the aforementioned times...
Please click on image to enlarge...
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all shots were fired from close proximity. the shots to the boys were either contact or a few inches away. when mothers murder their children there nearly always a situation of "overkill".psychologist or psychiatrists are never suprised bythis element in a mother murdering her children scenario.
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all shots were fired from close proximity. the shots to the boys were either contact or a few inches away. when mothers murder their children there nearly always a situation of "overkill".psychologist or psychiatrists are never suprised bythis element in a mother murdering her children scenario.
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Anyone firing bullets at someone from such close proximities, couldn't help but hit the target - it would not require the shooter to be a marksmen as alleged by the prosecution, and their supporters..
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true, all the bullets fired into the victims that night had been from close range, how could she be expected to miss?
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all shots were fired from close proximity. the shots to the boys were either contact or a few inches away. when mothers murder their children there nearly always a situation of "overkill".psychologist or psychiatrists are never suprised bythis element in a mother murdering her children scenario.
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Anyone firing bullets at someone from such close proximities, couldn't help but hit the target - it would not require the shooter to be a marksmen as alleged by the prosecution, and their supporters..
Yes... i agree... the sort of range we're talking about it would be hard to miss.
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all shots were fired from close proximity. the shots to the boys were either contact or a few inches away. when mothers murder their children there nearly always a situation of "overkill".psychologist or psychiatrists are never suprised bythis element in a mother murdering her children scenario.
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Anyone firing bullets at someone from such close proximities, couldn't help but hit the target - it would not require the shooter to be a marksmen as alleged by the prosecution, and their supporters..
Yes... i agree... the sort of range we're talking about it would be hard to miss.
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To be fair to the views of others, it would be fair to say that it would be somewhat impossible for anyone to miss, if they fired bullets into victims, at such close quarters...
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It's not so much the closeness to the victims I'm thinking of, it's more the state of mind of the killer. Someone in a rage might just shoot indiscriminately without bothering to aim properly, or they might shoot the walls or ceiling just to let off some steam. Although the amount of shots and the carnage suggests someone going "berserk", there's also a cold and calculating element to it.
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It's not so much the closeness to the victims I'm thinking of, it's more the state of mind of the killer. Someone in a rage might just shoot indiscriminately without bothering to aim properly, or they might shoot the walls or ceiling just to let off some steam. Although the amount of shots and the carnage suggests someone going "berserk", there's also a cold and calculating element to it.
Yes I agree with that.
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Mike DRH/19 bullit case found on kitchen table is that correct,Mike can you post a infantory of where the bullit cases were found if you have one,sorry to ask if you already have the reader just can not find it...
There are some drawings on page 6 of this thread if that helps.
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I don't understand this drawing. There seems to be more than 13 bullet cases in it. Am I looking at it wrong?
(http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=547;image)
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all shots were fired from close proximity. the shots to the boys were either contact or a few inches away. when mothers murder their children there nearly always a situation of "overkill".psychologist or psychiatrists are never suprised bythis element in a mother murdering her children scenario.
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Anyone firing bullets at someone from such close proximities, couldn't help but hit the target - it would not require the shooter to be a marksmen as alleged by the prosecution, and their supporters..
Yes... i agree... the sort of range we're talking about it would be hard to miss.
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To be fair to the views of others, it would be fair to say that it would be somewhat impossible for anyone to miss, if they fired bullets into victims, at such close quarters...
May be another thing to wonder about it how quickly the shooting took place. There could have been several seconds between shots - if Sheila was responsible - which might also account for the apparent cold/calculating element to the shooting (while she cursed or raved at her family) and the apparent lack of misses. Is there any reason to think the killer was in a hurry? Just a thought.
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all shots were fired from close proximity. the shots to the boys were either contact or a few inches away. when mothers murder their children there nearly always a situation of "overkill".psychologist or psychiatrists are never suprised bythis element in a mother murdering her children scenario.
------------------------------------------
Anyone firing bullets at someone from such close proximities, couldn't help but hit the target - it would not require the shooter to be a marksmen as alleged by the prosecution, and their supporters..
Yes... i agree... the sort of range we're talking about it would be hard to miss.
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To be fair to the views of others, it would be fair to say that it would be somewhat impossible for anyone to miss, if they fired bullets into victims, at such close quarters...
May be another thing to wonder about it how quickly the shooting took place. There could have been several seconds between shots - if Sheila was responsible - which might also account for the apparent cold/calculating element to the shooting (while she cursed or raved at her family) and the apparent lack of misses. Is there any reason to think the killer was in a hurry? Just a thought.
It's a very good thought. It's difficult to know what anyone meant by her going "berserk" or "mad". It could mean that she was ranting and shooting indiscriminately or it could mean that she was calm but obviously "mad" because she was shooting her own family. It's not the first possibility to my mind, otherwise not all the bullets would have found their mark.
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I don't understand this drawing. There seems to be more than 13 bullet cases in it. Am I looking at it wrong?
(http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=547;image)
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Four loose bullets, denoted by black marks...
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I don't understand this drawing. There seems to be more than 13 bullet cases in it. Am I looking at it wrong?
(http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=547;image)
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Four loose bullets, denoted by black marks...
Oh right - thanks. They label the bullets "DRH" as well as the cases? That's confusing.
What is DRH14 doing there? It looks like it's on the main stairs.
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I don't understand this drawing. There seems to be more than 13 bullet cases in it. Am I looking at it wrong?
(http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=547;image)
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Four loose bullets, denoted by black marks...
Oh right - thanks. They label the bullets "DRH" as well as the cases? That's confusing.
What is DRH14 doing there? It looks like it's on the main stairs.
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Correct