Sheila was the killer...

[Pete0001]

I can't really comment further unless it can be shown that there were five double marked cartridges in the gun, and that they were loaded in the way you said they were.

Same here.... I would like to know, is all the above thoery based on the bullets being loaded in a certain way and if the above only works because the bullets were loaded a certain way where is the proof that the old bullets were the first bullets to be put in the magazine?

I can't see how there can be FACTUAL PROOF that the first bullets in the magazine (last to be fired) were old... Jeremy may say he put the old bullets in the magazine sometime before the fateful night but thats just Jeremys word and can't be used as fact... surely.

Without any times of death or a witness account of the shootings as they happened it is purely speculation as to when each shot was fired... I can't see any hands down, unquestionable evidence that says the 10 bullets in the magazine were loaded in a certain way.


Scenario... who ever loaded rifle takes old ones out first then reloads them... drops one, replaces it with new bullet then picks up old one and puts it back in.
I have no proof to support this thoery but its just as believable.

[Pete0001]

I'll simplfy things a little... Mikes already put alot of time into this thread and I DO have great respect for his dedication and attention to detail...

But for me to get past this issue I would like to know

1) Is there any FACTUAL evidence to prove 5 old bullets were first in the magazine and then 5 new bullets? Or is it just the statement of Jeremy that tells us this is how he left the rifle, with 5 old bullets in the magazine?

2) If the above can't be proved with FACT how can the order of bullets fired be relied upon?

Cheers

[bb2010]

The sequence with which the first ten bullets were fired, helps to determine who was responsible:-

Sheila had a deep seated hatred for her mother, June Bamber
The frenzied way with which June Bamber was shot whilst she lay sleeping in her bed, demonstrates that whoever shot her five times, (with new bullets) did so with overkill in mind.

Re: Overkill - which was the more frenzied attack? The one on June or the one on Ralph?

Re: The hatred of her mother - how did Jeremy feel about the parents that had adopted him?

[Pete0001]

Not sure what relevance that has to my question.

No one knows the times of death... No one knows who was shot first. There all assumptions made via what is logical or considered likely.

Many things happen in this world that are illogical (characterized by lack of logic; senseless or unreasonable).

Mike is accounting the way things happened because of sequence the marked bullets left the gun. Without HARD FACTUAL EVIDENCE that the bullets were loaded in that order... it is pure thoery.
I'm not trying to belittle the thoery but I can't see how it can be considered useful or accurate without FACTS.
Show me one piece of HARD EVIDENCE that PROVES the bullets were loaded 5 old first 5 new last and I'll accept it until then I can't see how this thoery is worth much.

[bb2010]

I was clearly quoting from earlier in the thread. I can't make my post appear anywhere else. I understand your questions, but I cannot answer them. I assume that the thread is not closed while you await an answer?

If you want, you could make your questions a separate thread, and await answers there. You can bump each day too if it falls down the board.

[Pete0001]

I was clearly quoting from earlier in the thread. I can't make my post appear anywhere else. I understand your questions, but I cannot answer them. I assume that the thread is not closed while you await an answer?

If you want, you could make your questions a separate thread, and await answers there. You can bump each day too if it falls down the board.

Sorry.. I didn't realise your remarks where in the QUOTE.. I thought you were qouting something Mike said, to me.
when you post and quote someone else, make sure you type your message under the [./quote.] mark in the reply box... then it will appear outside of the original quote.

[Kaldin]

The sticking point for me is the fact that 11 shots were fired in the bedroom at Neville and June.  Leaving aside the issue of the double marked bullets, the 11 shots in the bedroom mean that even if all the bullets in the gun were fired at the same time in the bedroom, there had to be one more shot later after the gun had been reloaded. I can see no reason for that, whoever did it.

[Kaldin]

I'll simplfy things a little... Mikes already put alot of time into this thread and I DO have great respect for his dedication and attention to detail...

But for me to get past this issue I would like to know

1) Is there any FACTUAL evidence to prove 5 old bullets were first in the magazine and then 5 new bullets? Or is it just the statement of Jeremy that tells us this is how he left the rifle, with 5 old bullets in the magazine?

2) If the above can't be proved with FACT how can the order of bullets fired be relied upon?

Cheers

I also appreciate that Mike has been looking at this case for a very long time and seems to have access to a lot of information that others don't, but the other question is how Mike knows where these double marked cartridges were found.

[Pete0001]

I'll simplfy things a little... Mikes already put alot of time into this thread and I DO have great respect for his dedication and attention to detail...

But for me to get past this issue I would like to know

1) Is there any FACTUAL evidence to prove 5 old bullets were first in the magazine and then 5 new bullets? Or is it just the statement of Jeremy that tells us this is how he left the rifle, with 5 old bullets in the magazine?

2) If the above can't be proved with FACT how can the order of bullets fired be relied upon?

Cheers

I also appreciate that Mike has been looking at this case for a very long time and seems to have access to a lot of information that others don't, but the other question is how Mike knows where these double marked cartridges were found.

But even knowing where they were found doesn't prove the order in which they were loaded into the magazine as the order of death is just speculation.

We're talking about 2 possible culprits... ONE who would be accused of being cold and calculated so may disrupt the scene in any number of ways to make things look different and ONE who has a track record of mental issues and drug use and who's trail would leave no logical reason.

The simple fact is its speculation how the bullets were loaded.

Jeremy is the only person alive who can comment on how HE left the rifle and magazine.. but this is his word.. unfortunatly not a FACT.

[Kaldin]

But even knowing where they were found doesn't prove the order in which they were loaded into the magazine as the order of death is just speculation.

We're talking about 2 possible culprits... ONE who would be accused of being cold and calculated so may disrupt the scene in any number of ways to make things look different and ONE who has a track record of mental issues and drug use and who's trail would leave no logical reason.

The simple fact is its speculation how the bullets were loaded.

Jeremy is the only person alive who can comment on how HE left the rifle and magazine.. but this is his word.. unfortunatly not a FACT.

I absolutely agree with you. Of course it's possible that Jeremy told someone how the gun was loaded that night. He said he loaded the gun himself, so he might well have remembered if some of the bullets were double marked ones.

I think I need a little more info about how guns are loaded and all that.

This is from the Appeal document - para 124

During this conversation the appellant said he saw rabbits outside the house so he took the .22 rifle from the office/den, loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside. In fact he fired no shots outside and he then left the gun in the kitchen having removed the magazine and the bullet which was in the breach.

So the magazine was detachable - that could be interesting.

He removed the bullet from the breach - what does that mean?

Why would some of the bullets be double marked anyway? Does that mean they were loaded once, taken out, and then loaded again? Why would someone do that?

[Pete0001]

During this conversation the appellant said he saw rabbits outside the house so he took the .22 rifle from the office/den, loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside. In fact he fired no shots outside and he then left the gun in the kitchen having removed the magazine and the bullet which was in the breach.

So even in his own evidence he said "8 to 10 rounds".. he's unsure so why do we put more weight behind other things he says like 5 double marked bullets being in place before the remainder of the magazine is filled?

He removed the bullet from the breach - what does that mean?

When the magazine was removed there would still be one in the chamber that could be fired without the magazine in place. I guess that rilfe with a full magazine inserted automatically place the first bullet at the top of the magazine into the chamber ready to fire.

Why would some of the bullets be double marked anyway? Does that mean they were loaded once, taken out, and then loaded again? Why would someone do that?

Double marking I presume means there are "scratch" marks on the side of the bullet... a bullet loaded more than once would have multiple marks from the side of magazine as they are pushed into place.
I'm not sure why you would remove the already loaded bullets other than to store or count?

[Pete0001]

Sheila was the killer

The sequence with which the first ten (10) bullets were fired from the first load of the anshulz rifle, helps to determine that Sheila was the shooter, and not Jeremy, a fact borne out by reference to the position and location of uniquely marked bullet cases which were found at the scene by the police,. For example, Five double marked bullet cases were found at various places around whf, which serve to highlight the journey that the shooter took, and made as she went on the rampage through whf, shootings and killing as she went along:-

First to be shot was June Bamber, as she lay sleeping in her bed, she was shot five times, before the shooter fled the bedroom and went into the bedroom where the two children were sleeping, and she shot them both dead, with a solitary bullet each, before returning to the doorway to the main bedroom, at which point she shot and killed June Bamber by discharging two bullets into her...

With one bullet left, the shooter went downstairs and eventually ended up shooting Ralph Bamber and wounding him in the region of the kitchen, downstairs...

I can believe what you have posted but can't see it as anymore than speculation... yuo say the children were shot dead with a solitary bullet each... at what point did the shooter decide to fire a few each at the children and why?

All the above is based on the bullets appearing in the magazine as yuo say and that June was shot first and then the kids and then june and then neville.... there is no fact that i can see. Maybe I'm being a bit slow

[cazbub]

If June was shot first and Neville was shot in the kitchen with the last of the first magazine of bullets, then what on earth was he doing downstairs. He'd be leaving his mental daughter running about with a gun, that seems a bit illogical! Wouldn't he be trying to protect his wife and grandchildren upstairs?

[Pete0001]

If June was shot first and Neville was shot in the kitchen with the last of the first magazine of bullets, then what on earth was he doing downstairs. He'd be leaving his mental daughter running about with a gun, that seems a bit illogical! Wouldn't he be trying to protect his wife and grandchildren upstairs?

Unless the bullet cases really don't mean anything to how the scene played out and Neville was downstairs talking to Jeremy when the shooting started... Jeremy says the phone went dead (not cut off or that Neville left the phone.. just dead).. did Neville return upstairs due to hearing something?

[cazbub]

My point is, if he had gone downstairs to phone Jeremy, he said Sheila had a gun, so why he would leave his wife in bed alone, when his daughter has a gun seems odd. Logically you'd ahve thought he'd wake her up and take her with him if he'd heard something (Sheila with a gun).  Unless June was shot first, whilst Neville was in bed next to her?

Your right, the bullet cases could mean nothing. Especially with scuffles etc, they could get kicked around the place.