Sheila was the killer...

[Pete0001]

Pete0001 makes a good point, reloading is the only fact.

It is easy to speculate: for example, I am speculating when I say that the killer could have been carrying enough bullets in a pocket to be able to reload anywhere

heh cross posted.. yes.. my thoughts exactly.. cold and calculated wouldn't leave to chance the whole plan failing because he left the ammo downstairs and couldnt reload.

[Kaldin]

Thats a very good point Kaldin.

If we're going with cold and calculated then he would know how many shots he's got and surely wouldn't leave the ammo box out of reach.. you watch any western/film... yuo load up and grab a handful of ammo.

Yes, and he had to be aware that whilst he was reloading he couldn't shoot anyone, so any of the adults could have challenged him.

[bb2010]

And the parents it seems did challenge, one got out of bed and the other made it downstairs

[cazbub]

Is there anything about spare magazines that could have been loaded? Surely in a farmhouse they would have a spare magazine incase it jams, so there could have been 2 or more loaded magazines of ammo being carried around by the killer?  Could there not?

[Kaldin]

And the parents it seems did challenge, one got out of bed and the other made it downstairs

Exactly.

Neville did indeed challenge him - would Jeremy not have anticipated that would happen? After all, if he's busy shooting his mother he would surely expect his father to try to stop him. He couldn't have known what Sheila would do either. If his plan was to shoot Neville first, what did he expect his mother and Sheila to be doing?

Assuming Jeremy did it, what was his plan? To get into the house quietly whilst everyone was asleep and shoot them all in their beds without the others noticing?

[bb2010]

Was his plan what he told Julie Mugford - obviously replacing Matthew MacDonald with himself? It went pretty much to plan didn't it?

Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.

The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain.

From http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.htm para 99

[Kaldin]

Was his plan what he told Julie Mugford - obviously replacing Matthew MacDonald with himself? It went pretty much to plan didn't it?

Miss Mugford said that she asked the appellant whether he had done it. He said he had not, but that he had arranged for a friend of his, Matthew MacDonald, to kill his family. He spoke of what he had told MacDonald as to ways of getting in and out of the farmhouse undetected and he said that one of his instructions was for MacDonald to ring him from the farm on the telephone which had the memory redial facility so that if the telephone was checked by the police it would provide him with an alibi.

The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber. The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain.

The MacDonald element is fascinating - worth its own thread really.

The man had an alibi so we know that none of that happened. Why then would Jeremy tell Julie that MacDonald had done it? I wonder if he did actually plan for MacDonald to do it, or just said it was him so that Julie wouldn't think he was a murderer himself - daft I know.

Julie knew all those details by then so she could have made the whole thing up I suppose. I wonder if she knew MacDonald herself.

We know that the phone with the redial wasn't used (it had been sent for repair) so Jeremy wasn't talking of what actually happened, but he could have been talking about what he'd planned in some respects and talking about what actually happened in other respects - eg, the fight with Neville. He couldn't have planned the fight with Neville - could he?

[cazbub]

Maybe not have planned the fight with Neville, but could have assumed that it would take place. Like I've said before, if anyone was running around with a gun and shooting your family you'd surely do something to try and stop them.

[Newbury1]

Post Pete0001

"yes... COULD have.. but again no evidence so its kind of pointless unless it leads somewhere of fact or a fact leads up to it.
There's threads all over here counting bullets, new ones, old ones and reloaded ones... but I can't understand how it actually means anything of great importance with out FACTS.
It just means the murderer (Sheila or Jeremy) reloaded at some point and continued to shoot the victims.
Reloading is the only FACT as the magazine only holds 10 shots".


- Which is exactly why I said "could". I did not say I had evidence . There are lots of coulds, but's, if's and other pointless remarks on here from all.

Why is reloading the only fact, when there could have been another magazine used, unless of course you have positive proof that only one magazine was used?

The CCRC have the final say and I am sure they have a lot more information than we have to go on. Just over a week to wait!

[Kaldin]

Maybe not have planned the fight with Neville, but could have assumed that it would take place. Like I've said before, if anyone was running around with a gun and shooting your family you'd surely do something to try and stop them.

He might have anticipated it. My goodness - you would have to be a very cruel and cold person to anticipate fighting with your own father and shooting him face to face.

[bb2010]

The simple explanation may indeed be that he "just said it was him so that Julie wouldn't think he was a murderer himself " Yes, Julie could have made the whole thing up and no, I don't think a fight can be planned - even if it was one sided.

Again the phone is interesting. What was necessary was that there was a phone, the ideal may have been that it had a redial feature. Or maybe that wasn't the ideal - since we know that the actual kitchen phone was hidden and had been replaced with the bedroom one.

All just speculation and maybe we're not asking the right questions. Remember, Mike Tesko has spent over twenty years on this.

[Kaldin]

The simple explanation may indeed be that he "just said it was him so that Julie wouldn't think he was a murderer himself " Yes, Julie could have made the whole thing up and no, I don't think a fight can be planned - even if it was one sided.

Again the phone is interesting. What was necessary was that there was a phone, the ideal may have been that it had a redial feature. Or maybe that wasn't the ideal - since we know that the actual kitchen phone was hidden and had been replaced with the bedroom one.

All just speculation and maybe we're not asking the right questions. Remember, Mike Tesko has spent over twenty years on this.

That business about the bedroom phone being in the kitchen is still a mystery to me. I can think of no real reason it was there, and I think it might be significant.

Perhaps we are asking the wrong question, but maybe someone will ask just the right question and bingo! Probably not though. 

[bb2010]

With reference to the phone, Jeremy would know.

[Kaldin]

With reference to the phone, Jeremy would know.

He might or he might not. If he put it there he would know why obviously, but if he didn't, he might not know.

[bb2010]

With reference to the phone, Jeremy would know.

He might or he might not. If he put it there he would know why obviously, but if he didn't, he might not know.

Yes, apologies he might know, bearing in mind that he was at the house for an evening meal that night.