Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on March 19, 2022, 11:26:AM
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He only had a short window of opportunity while the 5 people were at WHF. The next time may be months or years away.
He was planning to kill 5 people, 3 of them adults & one of them a large male.
The only difference with Sheila was he had to move her a few feet & kill her with one bullet. He would have been confident of doing this regardless of Sheila's condition.
However it was worth keeping close tabs on Sheila. Her medication will make her docile & uncordinated some of the time.
He certainly thought the time was right at supper & rang Julie when arriving home. Sheila being docile that night is supported by PB's WS.
If Sheila did not show any signs of being docile during her stay, in my view Bamber would have waited until a couple of days before she was due back in London & still gone ahead.
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Does anyone know how long Sheila was due to stay at WHF?
As well as how many days into her stay she was when the massacre was committed?
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An interesting thing here is Julie said Bamber had been on his tractor thinking about it all day.
This suggests he planned to go ahead regardless of Sheila's condition that night. Although he had seen her outside earlier in the day.
Either Sheila was docile & un cordinated 100% of the time, or Bamber was confident & determined enough to go ahead regardless of what state she was in.
He still had to attend WHF a few hours before the massacre. To confirm everything was in place. Him & PB confirming Sheila was non responsive to conversation attempts that night.
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Does anyone know how long Sheila was due to stay at WHF?
As well as how many days into her stay she was when the massacre was committed?
Having arrived Sunday afternoon, they were due to leave on the Thursday as the boys were being taken to Norway, on the Friday, to holiday with Colin's sister. There's no evidence that Sheila was planning to stay on at WHF after the boys had left. As is constantly being pointed out, her next injection was due.
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Having arrived Sunday afternoon, they were due to leave on the Thursday as the boys were being taken to Norway, on the Friday, to holiday with Colin's sister. There's no evidence that Sheila was planning to stay on at WHF after the boys had left. As is constantly being pointed out, her next injection was due.
So he only had 4 evenings.
The massacre was committed on the third night?
So really, Sheila's condition was not too much of an issue for him. She wasn't staying for 3 weeks so he couldn't wait for a perfect moment.
Going by the evidence, it seems he got lucky & Sheila was very docile that night.
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So he only had 4 evenings.
The massacre was committed on the third night?
So really, Sheila's condition was not too much of an issue for him. She wasn't staying for 3 weeks so he couldn't wait for a perfect moment.
Going by the evidence, it seems he got lucky & Sheila was very docile that night.
Or maybe docile all the time.
Whether docile or not, Bamber felt confident. The rewards were high.
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Sheila's condition was irrelevant to Bamber deciding to attempt the massacre.
He only had 4 evenings to make his move & the rewards were high.
The liklihood that Sheila was docile & put up no resistance was a welcome bonus for him. Espescially after Nevill rocked the boat.
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Until JB was able to visit the prison library, he didn't have a clue about Sheila's condition, so read up about it until he understood how complex it was and its further connotations it can have.
Sheila had given the impression that she'd been sleepy, doped-up, etc etc. but this was clearly a sign of oncoming psychosis and not as everyone says/thinks, tiredness.
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Does anyone know how long Sheila was due to stay at WHF?
As well as how many days into her stay she was when the massacre was committed?
She had gone to Rags nightclub on the Friday evening.There had been a party at Colin's on Saturday and she set off with Nicholas, Daniel and her ex-husband on the Sunday. They were due to stay a week, whereupon Colin and the twins were to spend a week in Norway with Colin's sister.
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She had gone to Rags nightclub on the Friday evening.There had been a party at Colin's on Saturday and she set off with Nicholas, Daniel and her ex-husband on the Sunday. They were due to stay a week, whereupon Colin and the twins were to spend a week in Norway with Colin's sister.
Party,party,party,and oh how drowsy and sedated.What a brave girl to attend!
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She had gone to Rags nightclub on the Friday evening.There had been a party at Colin's on Saturday and she set off with Nicholas, Daniel and her ex-husband on the Sunday. They were due to stay a week, whereupon Colin and the twins were to spend a week in Norway with Colin's sister.
A short time period.
Sheila being fully alert would not deter him. The rewards were high.
However Sheila being in a very docile unresponsive period of her medication, would make him even more enthusiastic.
The evidence is Sheila was very docile on the night.
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Party,party,party,and oh how drowsy and sedated.What a brave girl to attend!
She put on appearances, a trait she had learned from her mother, June.
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She put on appearances, a trait she had learned from her mother, June.
Pity she couldnt put on an appearance the night of the murders,and try and save herself Steve!
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Pity she couldnt put on an appearance the night of the murders,and try and save herself Steve!
Both supporters & guilters will agree Sheila's condition would not deter Bamber from attempting the massacre.
He only had a short window of opportunity & the rewards were huge.
He was going to attempt to kill a 6.4 male, so Sheila being fully alert was not going to deter him.
On the flip side, Sheila being very docile beforehand would make him more confident & enthusiastic.
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Both supporters & guilters will agree Sheila's condition would not deter Bamber.
He only had a short window of opportunity & the rewards were huge.
He was going to attempt to kill a 6.4 male, so Sheila being fully alert was not going to deter him.
On the flip side, Sheila being very docile beforehand would make him more confident & enthusiastic.
The WS's & evidence is that this was the case.
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Both supporters & guilters will agree Sheila's condition would not deter Bamber.
He only had a short window of opportunity & the rewards were huge.
He was going to attempt to kill a 6.4 male, so Sheila being fully alert was not going to deter him.
On the flip side, Sheila being very docile beforehand would make him more confident & enthusiastic.
What would deter him would be the way he planned and committed the crime meant he was the only survivor of a crime with only two possible suspects.
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People who are severely depressed barely, if at all, leave their homes let alone go to parties. Self-neglect is also evident, so no partying or even shopping as Sheila had done. Hers was an entirely different set of circumstances in that she could be " on a high " one minute then a low whereas a depressive is on a permanent low. Wild horses wouldn't make them move. Sheila's was more anxiety bordering on what we now know of OCD as reassurance featured a lot in her life, uncertainty on how she looked ( modelling )
June herself had suffered severe depression and knew what it was like, hence her misunderstanding of Sheila's condition as well as her obvious lack of empathy being that she, June, had undergone 2 treatments of ECT----which rarely works in the long term.
This is the difference between a depressive and someone who's psychotic such as Sheila was, though Sheila could well have had a form of depression to begin with until it snow-balled. I'd have said it began with postpartum psychosis which sadly wasn't as recognised back in the 70's as it is now.
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She had gone to Rags nightclub on the Friday evening.There had been a party at Colin's on Saturday and she set off with Nicholas, Daniel and her ex-husband on the Sunday. They were due to stay a week, whereupon Colin and the twins were to spend a week in Norway with Colin's sister.
It is worth noting, before posters try to make a big thing of her partying, that she is said to have been not entirely there/'elsewhere'/vacant during said party.
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It is worth noting, before posters try to make a big thing of her partying, that she is said to have been not entirely there/'elsewhere'/vacant during said party.
Also vacant when killing the family too---delusional etc which is usual during a psychotic attack.
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It's very frightening to witness someone displaying a psychotic attack----also a danger too. Both parents would truly have been petrified beyond imagination. A sight they'd never have thought they'd ever see.
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It's very frightening to witness someone displaying a psychotic attack----also a danger too. Both parents would truly have been petrified beyond imagination. A sight they'd never have thought they'd ever see.
Agree with that.
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Agree with that.
Yes, and their own daughter at that. Just how does a father deal with his daughter in such a case ?
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It's very frightening to witness someone displaying a psychotic attack----also a danger too. Both parents would truly have been petrified beyond imagination. A sight they'd never have thought they'd ever see.
Would she have gained strength too Lookout?
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Yes, and their own daughter at that. Just how does a father deal with his daughter in such a case ?
A fully fit Nevill would negate the situation straight away.
This was real life, not 'Fawlty Towers'.
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Doubtful Bamber gave what Sheila's condition before the massacre would be, much thought, when planning the massacre. It was something he would have no control over.
He would only have a short window of opportunity. So had to go ahead regardless.
The evidence states she was very docile on the night. Which was a bonus for him & got him so hyped he rang Julie as soon as he got home to tell her 'it's now or never'.
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Doubtful Bamber gave what Sheila's condition before the massacre would be, much thought, when planning the massacre. It was something he would have no control over.
He would only have a short window of opportunity. So had to go ahead regardless.
The evidence states she was very docile on the night. Which was a bonus for him & got him so hyped he rang Julie as soon as he got home to tell her 'it's now or never'.
Hi Adam,nice day isnt it.Now,it is becoming very clear the subject of Sheilas condition on the night of the massacre and how she was shot ,troubles you greatly.You HAVE to convince yourself she was severely sedated for a JB scenario to work.Deep down in your mind you know there is problems,you are even trying to convince yourself that JB was so hyped up it didnt matter if she was Geoff Capes.He was going through with it whatever.You are all over the place.But you still keep stating the evidence shows shr was docile,so you are going with Sheila possibly sleeping through the shooting,and either led through or carried to the bedroom to be shot without objection in a room full of blood and carnage.I think your scenario still troubles you greatly deep down Adam,but you simply keep any doudts with it tightly suppressed.Simple scenario,she sat down and shot herself.
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Would she have gained strength too Lookout?
Strength of an ox, snow66.
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Hi Adam,nice day isnt it.Now,it is becoming very clear the subject of Sheilas condition on the night of the massacre and how she was shot ,troubles you greatly.You HAVE to convince yourself she was severely sedated for a JB scenario to work.Deep down in your mind you know there is problems,you are even trying to convince yourself that JB was so hyped up it didnt matter if she was Geoff Capes.He was going through with it whatever.You are all over the place.But you still keep stating the evidence shows shr was docile,so you are going with Sheila possibly sleeping through the shooting,and either led through or carried to the bedroom to be shot without objection in a room full of blood and carnage.I think your scenario still troubles you greatly deep down Adam,but you simply keep any doudts with it tightly suppressed.Simple scenario,she sat down and shot herself.
She couldn't even hold down a cleaning job gained from Massey's Employment Agency on Baker Street. It became evident to her parents that she would not be able to support herself in the future, hence June's decision in consultation with solicitor Basil Cock to provide her with an allowance paid quarterly on 18 July. Jeremy would regard this manoeuvre as further eroding his inheritance.
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Also vacant when killing the family too---delusional etc which is usual during a psychotic attack.
Indeed so. However, the two psychotic attacks Sheila was known to have had, happened 1) prior to her being under medical care/undiagnosed/unmedicated, and 2) although diagnosed and having prescribed medication, declining to take it. In neither of these attacks was an attempt made to hurt anyone other than herself.
Sheila, according to the tox report posted, today, by Rob, far from saying what many supporters have recently claimed, ie that she was undermedicated, still had an adequate and theraputic distribution of h
Haloperidol in her system, which would have meant she was adequately covered until her next dose. The chances of her having a psychotic attack, under such conditions, are as close to being
almost impossible as makes no difference.
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Indeed so. However, the two psychotic attacks Sheila was known to have had, happened 1) prior to her being under medical care/undiagnosed/unmedicated, and 2) although diagnosed and having prescribed medication, declining to take it. In neither of these attacks was an attempt made to hurt anyone other than herself.
Sheila, according to the tox report posted, today, by Rob, far from saying what many supporters have recently claimed, ie that she was undermedicated, still had an adequate and theraputic distribution of h
Haloperidol in her system, which would have meant she was adequately covered until her next dose. The chances of her having a psychotic attack, under such conditions, are as close to being
almost impossible as makes no difference.
We'll never know of any other attacks that Sheila had, other than when she punched walls when in the company of Emami but in her mind on the night of the murders everything in her life obviously came to the forefront as the thought of someone else being involved in the boys lives other than herself would have had a drastic effect and one which would have caused her to think deeply of what the future held.
Medication in her system or not Sheila had made sure on that night that her boys were going nowhere and neither was anyone else. It just happened the day before they were going to have gone away, so she knew she'd timed that right.
Sheila had been prone to outbursts so the easy availability to weapons was the answer, whereas wherever else she was living/ staying, there was no easy way out.
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Strength of an ox, snow66.
And despite what guilters say,wasnt a small woman.At 5feet 7.5 inches she was almost the height of an average man.
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And despite what guilters say,wasnt a small woman.At 5feet 7.5 inches she was almost the height of an average man.
Because a woman is slightly built doesn't mean that she's less strong no matter what height she is.
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Despite what's said about " frail old ladies " they can still muster the strength to clout someone if carrying an umbrella.
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Despite what's said about " frail old ladies " they can still muster the strength to clout someone if carrying an umbrella.
Of course Lookout,especially if their bloods up.
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We'll never know of any other attacks that Sheila had, other than when she punched walls when in the company of Emami but in her mind on the night of the murders everything in her life obviously came to the forefront as the thought of someone else being involved in the boys lives other than herself would have had a drastic effect and one which would have caused her to think deeply of what the future held.
Medication in her system or not Sheila had made sure on that night that her boys were going nowhere and neither was anyone else. It just happened the day before they were going to have gone away, so she knew she'd timed that right.
Sheila had been prone to outbursts so the easy availability to weapons was the answer, whereas wherever else she was living/ staying, there was no easy way out.
But we can't speculate on what we don't know of her, can we? IF it's as you're implying and violent attacks, when she was unmedicated, were her norm, I can't imagine that she wouldn't have been hospitalized forcefully, under section. It would only have needed one person to come forward claiming to have visited A&E as a result of a violent attack by Sheila, for her to have been viewed as a possible culprit, but no one ever has.
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She couldn't even hold down a cleaning job gained from Massey's Employment Agency on Baker Street. It became evident to her parents that she would not be able to support herself in the future, hence June's decision in consultation with solicitor Basil Cock to provide her with an allowance paid quarterly on 18 July. Jeremy would regard this manoeuvre as further eroding his inheritance.
The farm subsidies alone would have covered Sheilas allowance many times over Steve.
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The farm subsidies alone would have covered Sheilas allowance many times over Steve.
Undoubtedly. However, there's nothing to suggest that they were. Nevill and June both had private funds from which Sheila could be financed. JB's wage was supported by the farm because he worked on the farm. It seems that his other financial requirements came from his parents' private funds.
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But we can't speculate on what we don't know of her, can we? IF it's as you're implying and violent attacks, when she was unmedicated, were her norm, I can't imagine that she wouldn't have been hospitalized forcefully, under section. It would only have needed one person to come forward claiming to have visited A&E as a result of a violent attack by Sheila, for her to have been viewed as a possible culprit, but no one ever has.
Firstly Jane, I'm not sure how private clinics work as regards sectioning but NHS hospitals where patients are admitted with mental health problems are automatically sectioned on admission. The sectioning is a category of their mental state then the appropriate ward and treatment is given after assessment.
Secondly in most cases, the patient will only attack those nearest to them or those who they think are a threat such as family or hospital staff who want to help them though the patient doesn't see it as helping because their minds are focussed in a different way.
For all we know, and prior to the psychotic attacks, Sheila may have actually known or sensed one emerging. For instance if she was hallucinating or her thoughts were disturbed, especially when she spoke to Pam on that night as her concentration would have been affected which is why she'd said so little. Sheila could even have been confused as to who she was speaking to because we know she was paranoid as well.
I would have said that Sheila's actions that evening were heading for big problems. The family hadn't known that it was " the calm before the storm ", reading Sheila's behaviour. In fact anyone would have thought that she was just quiet.
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Hi Adam,nice day isnt it.Now,it is becoming very clear the subject of Sheilas condition on the night of the massacre and how she was shot ,troubles you greatly.You HAVE to convince yourself she was severely sedated for a JB scenario to work.Deep down in your mind you know there is problems,you are even trying to convince yourself that JB was so hyped up it didnt matter if she was Geoff Capes.He was going through with it whatever.You are all over the place.But you still keep stating the evidence shows shr was docile,so you are going with Sheila possibly sleeping through the shooting,and either led through or carried to the bedroom to be shot without objection in a room full of blood and carnage.I think your scenario still troubles you greatly deep down Adam,but you simply keep any doudts with it tightly suppressed.Simple scenario,she sat down and shot herself.
You have not read my thread post.
Bamber was going ahead regardless of Sheila's condition beforehand.
He only had a 4 day window of opportunity.
Keep up.
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Undoubtedly. However, there's nothing to suggest that they were. Nevill and June both had private funds from which Sheila could be financed. JB's wage was supported by the farm because he worked on the farm. It seems that his other financial requirements came from his parents' private funds.
Hi Jane,how are you today.I simply meant Sheila receiving an allowance should not have been another nail in the coffin concerning a family massacre.There was more than enough for everyone.Indeed Nevill and Junes business interests were continually growing and expanding.Murdering them was like killing the goose that laid the golden egg,and losing the profits the expanding businesses would have genersted for years to come.Killing his family ended any future savings and actualy caused big money PROBLEMS with high death duty taxes and wrapping businesses up.Jb might have ended up with everything left from his parents,but would have lost much to tax along the way.And all future revenue and profit from the farm and other businesses would be gone.Dont you think his plan to inherit was a poor one Jane,for someone so obsessed with money.? In a way it was like cutting off his nose to spite his face!
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The evidence from Bamber & PB that Sheila was very docile beforehand was simply a bonus for Bamber.
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Hi Jane,how are you today.I simply meant Sheila receiving an allowance should not have been another nail in the coffin concerning a family massacre.There was more than enough for everyone.Indeed Nevill and Junes business interests were continually growing and expanding.Murdering them was like killing the goose that laid the golden egg,and losing the profits the expanding businesses would have genersted for years to come.Killing his family ended any future savings and actualy caused big money PROBLEMS with high death duty taxes and wrapping businesses up.Jb might have ended up with everything left from his parents,but would have lost much to tax along the way.And all future revenue and profit from the farm and other businesses would be gone.Dont you think his plan to inherit was a poor one Jane,for someone so obsessed with money.? In a way it was like cutting off his nose to spite his face!
You have not read up on the wills.
Bamber was an inheritance killer. To him there was no other option.
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Hi Jane,how are you today.I simply meant Sheila receiving an allowance should not have been another nail in the coffin concerning a family massacre.There was more than enough for everyone.Indeed Nevill and Junes business interests were continually growing and expanding.Murdering them was like killing the goose that laid the golden egg,and losing the profits the expanding businesses would have genersted for years to come.Killing his family ended any future savings and actualy caused big money PROBLEMS with high death duty taxes and wrapping businesses up.Jb might have ended up with everything left from his parents,but would have lost much to tax along the way.And all future revenue and profit from the farm and other businesses would be gone.Dont you think his plan to inherit was a poor one Jane,for someone so obsessed with money.? In a way it was like cutting off his nose to spite his face!
He was an inheritance killer. He couldn't wait to move into Moreshead Mansions and lead the bachelor lifestyle. He lived for the moment. I doubt he ever planned anything properly in his life.
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WHF wasn't in the inheritance for a start, and besides, wasn't it DB who'd said they'd more or less spent up, there was nothing left ? Didn't go very far did it ? So was it worth killing for ?
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Firstly Jane, I'm not sure how private clinics work as regards sectioning but NHS hospitals where patients are admitted with mental health problems are automatically sectioned on admission. The sectioning is a category of their mental state then the appropriate ward and treatment is given after assessment.
Secondly in most cases, the patient will only attack those nearest to them or those who they think are a threat such as family or hospital staff who want to help them though the patient doesn't see it as helping because their minds are focussed in a different way.
For all we know, and prior to the psychotic attacks, Sheila may have actually known or sensed one emerging. For instance if she was hallucinating or her thoughts were disturbed, especially when she spoke to Pam on that night as her concentration would have been affected which is why she'd said so little. Sheila could even have been confused as to who she was speaking to because we know she was paranoid as well.
I would have said that Sheila's actions that evening were heading for big problems. The family hadn't known that it was " the calm before the storm ", reading Sheila's behaviour. In fact anyone would have thought that she was just quiet.
Lookout, this isn't something I've plucked from the ether, it's from a scientific paper. I'm aware that all meds get tweaked in order to find the theraputic dose. You know, I'm sure, all about doses often needing adjustments according to patients age, sex, height, weight and lifestyle prior to getting it right! I'm satisfied that both the tox report, which was preceded by the scientific paper are both correct. With both of these as acceptable back ups, it wouldn't be possible to argue that she MAY have had violent, but unknown of, outbursts in the past, meaning that, although adequately and theraputically medicated, she MAY have revealed symptoms not seen previously, and have that argument accepted. Had she still been taking -or rather NOT taking- oral meds, the argument may have stood up.
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You have not read my thread post.
Bamber was going ahead regardless of Sheila's condition beforehand.
He only had a 4 day window of opportunity.
Keep up.
Ok Adam,so lets say her medication was working extremely well and Sheila was basically back to normal,surely JB must have known he was going to have problems.She could have quite easiily have wakened up during the massacre,and possibly even sneak up and hit him over the hesd with something.Or at the very least struggle violently to stay alive.No you have to admit,a severely sedated Sheila is the only way a JB scenario works Adam,and there simply isnt adequate evidence to prove this.Is there?
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Ok Adam,so lets say her medication was working extremely well and Sheila was basically back to normal,surely JB must have known he was going to have problems.She could have quite easiily have wakened up during the massacre,and possibly even sneak up and hit him over the hesd with something.Or at the very least struggle violently to stay alive.No you have to admit,a severely sedated Sheila is the only way a JB scenario works Adam,and there simply isnt adequate evidence to prove this.Is there?
He had witnessed her up close since the Sunday. They had conducted a ten-minute conversation in the field that last teatime, as Nicholas and Daniel climbed the stationary tractor, their little hands grasping the gear levers, typical of the ingenuousness which characterized their six years on God's earth. There was a suspicion of a row between the siblings, which soured the atmosphere thenceforth, as Jeremy, who felt nothing for the soil and no attachment to the milieu he found himself in, determined to execute the plan he had harboured in his mind for so long..https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3760.msg151053.html#msg151053
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He had witnessed her up close since the Sunday. They had conducted a ten-minute conversation in the field that last teatime, as Nicholas and Daniel climbed the stationary tractor, their little hands grasping the gear levers, typical of the ingenuousness which characterized their six years on God's earth. There was a suspicion of a row between the siblings, which soured the atmosphere thenceforth, as Jeremy, who felt nothing for the soil and no attachment to the milieu he found himself in, determined to execute the plan he had harboured in his mind for so long..https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3760.msg151053.html#msg151053
Well,i would say the same as Patti ,steve,where did you get all that from.It seems every thought each member of the Bamber family had ,is in the public domain.Did they all keep diarys in which the wrote their inermost private thoughts? I dont think so.Everyone seems to think they are a psychologist who knows the thoughts and motives of all involved.You even tell me JBs motive and what he has thought and reflected on since being jailed,yet JB still protests his INNOCENCE and has addmitted NOTHING.
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Well,i would say the same as Patti ,steve,where did you get all that from.It seems every thought each member of the Bamber family had ,is in the public domain.Did they all keep diarys in which the wrote their inermost private thoughts? I dont think so.Everyone seems to think they are a psychologist who knows the thoughts and motives of all involved.You even tell me JBs motive and what he has thought and reflected on since being jailed,yet JB still protests his INNOCENCE and has addmitted NOTHING.
He more or less admitted to Mike on Christmas Day 1989 that he was Sheila's accomplice.
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He more or less admitted to Mike on Christmas Day 1989 that he was Sheila's accomplice.
I'd take that with a pinch of salt too.
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He more or less admitted to Mike on Christmas Day 1989 that he was Sheila's accomplice.
Yes i know what Mike said Steve,but he has since explained he misinterpreted what JB meant.
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Anyway. Slow progress has been made.
After months of planning, Bamber was going ahead with the massacre attempt.
He had a 4 evening window of opportunity. Goodness knows when the next chance would be.
Sheila's condition was neither here or there. He had no control over that. If Sheila was fully alert or like a zombie, he was confident.
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Yes i know what Mike said Steve,but he has since explained he misinterpreted what JB meant.
And remember Steve,i have reasonable doudt.I am quite willing to accept Jb is guilty as well as innocent.I have no AGENDA ,whatever that phrase is supposed to mean that keeps cropping up from time to time.Just show me a bit of reliable CONCRETE evidence,not weak circumstantial stuff and silencers and scratch marks found after the crime scene was vacated.And adequately explain all the annomolies like the two bodies in the kitchen,the conversation,and the timely destroying of evidence to a believable degree.Oh,and the biggie for me,the way JB finished off Sheila.Untill then Steve i will remain to have reasonable doubt and treat JBas innocent until proven guilty to my satisfaction.
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And remember Steve,i have reasonable doudt.I am quite willing to accept Jb is guilty as well as innocent.I have no AGENDA ,whatever that phrase is supposed to mean that keeps cropping up from time to time.Just show me a bit of reliable CONCRETE evidence,not weak circumstantial stuff and silencers and scratch marks found after the crime scene was vacated.And adequately explain all the annomolies like the two bodies in the kitchen,the conversation,and the timely destroying of evidence to a believable degree.Oh,and the biggie for me,the way JB finished off Sheila.Untill then Steve i will remain to have reasonable doubt and treat JBas innocent until proven guilty to my satisfaction.
Well let's do the biggie first: Jeremy loused up. The body in the kitchen had straggly hair protruding from a coal scuttle, hence Nevill being mistaken for a woman when police peered tentatively through the window. The case is circumstantial, but as the saying goes: a circumstantial case is like a rope-one thread alone is insufficient to support a weight, but several strands working together may do so..
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Well let's do the biggie first: Jeremy loused up. The body in the kitchen had straggly hair protruding from a coal scuttle, hence Nevill being mistaken for a woman when police peered tentatively through the window. The case is circumstantial, but as the saying goes: a circumstantial case is like a rope-one thread alone is insufficient to support a weight, but several strands working together may do so..
Loused up in what way Steve,thinking Sheila was more sedated than she really was,or for carrying out the massacre regardless of Sheilas condition,since another oppertunity would not arise any tine soon?And as for the bodies in the kitchen Steve,read the documents Mike produced and you will see two bodies in kitcheh reported UPON ENTRY,not looking through the window.
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Loused up in what way Steve,thinking Sheila was more sedated than she really was,or for carrying out the massacre regardless of Sheilas condition,since another oppertunity would not arise any tine soon?And as for the bodies in the kitchen Steve,read the documents Mike produced and you will see two bodies in kitcheh reported UPON ENTRY,not looking through the window.
Perhaps it can be looked at thus; Policeman A, thinks the body he sees, having long flowing hair, is female. He radios in to HQ with this information. Policeman B, thinks the body he sees is male. He radios in the information to HQ. Seeking to condense what must have been information coming at them from everywhere, HQ helpfully records it as two bodies, male and female. End of the mystery created by those who want to complicate things.
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Loused up in what way Steve,thinking Sheila was more sedated than she really was,or for carrying out the massacre regardless of Sheilas condition,since another oppertunity would not arise any tine soon?And as for the bodies in the kitchen Steve,read the documents Mike produced and you will see two bodies in kitcheh reported UPON ENTRY,not looking through the window.
He loused up in needing two bullets to kill his sister. Two-way radio communication was contemporaneous, so unsurprising that mistakes in transcription occurred.
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Well let's do the biggie first: Jeremy loused up. The body in the kitchen had straggly hair protruding from a coal scuttle, hence Nevill being mistaken for a woman when police peered tentatively through the window. The case is circumstantial, but as the saying goes: a circumstantial case is like a rope-one thread alone is insufficient to support a weight, but several strands working together may do so..
Steve, Nevill's head wasn't in the scuttle until police put it there.
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Perhaps it can be looked at thus; Policeman A, thinks the body he sees, having long flowing hair, is female. He radios in to HQ with this information. Policeman B, thinks the body he sees is male. He radios in the information to HQ. Seeking to condense what must have been information coming at them from everywhere, HQ helpfully records it as two bodies, male and female. End of the mystery created by those who want to complicate things.
Another dopy mistake maybe? but if I had been briefed that there was a 6'4" grey haired male and two very slender dark haired females in the house it's difficult to see how this mistake was made, and even more difficult why this was not immediately corrected on entry to the house?
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Steve, Nevill's head wasn't in the scuttle until police put it there.
Either way police saw the straggly hair of a corpse and reached the wrong conclusion of its gender.
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Perhaps it can be looked at thus; Policeman A, thinks the body he sees, having long flowing hair, is female. He radios in to HQ with this information. Policeman B, thinks the body he sees is male. He radios in the information to HQ. Seeking to condense what must have been information coming at them from everywhere, HQ helpfully records it as two bodies, male and female. End of the mystery created by those who want to complicate things.
No Jane,the document clearly reads-two bodies in kitchen UPON ENTRY-not only that -three bodies upstairs-how could this have come about if Sheilas body was upstairs all along since 3.30.Very suspicious,as is the conversation with someone inside the farm.
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And you cant say it was because they only found some of the bodies upstairs and feported this.The maximum they could have found in one room was two,then another two.the only way three bodies makes sense is the twins and June being found.No other equation is possible for three bodies upstairs.
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And you cant say it was because they only found some of the bodies upstairs and feported this.The maximum they could have found in one room was two,then another two.the only way three bodies makes sense is the twins and June being found.No other equation is possible for three bodies upstairs.
It is if the radio operator did a simple sum in his or her head, having been fed the information that there were five occupants of the charnel house White House Farm had become that August morning.
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It is if the radio operator did a simple sum in his or her head, having been fed the information that there were five occupants of the charnel house White House Farm had become that August morning.
I am sorry Steve,but i just dont understand what you have just said!
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No Jane,the document clearly reads-two bodies in kitchen UPON ENTRY-not only that -three bodies upstairs-how could this have come about if Sheilas body was upstairs all along since 3.30.Very suspicious,as is the conversation with someone inside the farm.
I'm unaware of the document to which you refer, perhaps you can provide the information.
Re said conversation. I think you should read it again. It says "...in conversation with a person from inside the farm", and then says ".... challenges to persons inside the house, met with no response". It differentiates between person and persons, and farm and house. The person with whom they're conversing is JB. Nobody from in the house responded to challenge. Don't worry about your mistake posters have been making the same for years.
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I am sorry Steve,but i just dont understand what you have just said!
Well someone was cognizant of there being five occupants of White House Farm, information provided courtesy of Jeremy Bamber. When it's reported erroneously that two people have been found dead downstairs some bright spark has done the mental arithmetic and Bob's your uncle.
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I'm unaware of the document to which you refer, perhaps you can provide the information.
Re said conversation. I think you should read it again. It says "...in conversation with a person from inside the farm", and then says ".... challenges to persons inside the house, met with no response". It differentiates between person and persons, and farm and house. The person with whom they're conversing is JB. Nobody from in the house responded to challenge. Don't worry about your mistake posters have been making the same for years.
Lets cover the three bodies first Jane ,then i will give you my take on the conversation.
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Well someone was cognizant of there being five occupants of White House Farm, information provided courtesy of Jeremy Bamber. When it's reported erroneously that two people have been found dead downstairs some bright spark has done the mental arithmetic and Bob's your uncle.
But the document says a further three bodies found upstairs Steve,how do you explain this ?
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But the document says a further three bodies found upstairs Steve,how do you explain this ?
I've just told you. There are people reporting via a two-way communication system who are not present at the scene, but did an erroneous arithmetical calculation in their head.
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I've just told you. There are people reporting via a two-way communication system who are not present at the scene, but did an erroneous arithmetical calculation in their head.
Ok, i will put it another way Steve,one body has been found down stairs,fair enough.Why did the TFG then report a FURTHER three bodies upstairs instead of four?
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Ok, i will put it another way Steve,one body has been found down stairs,fair enough.Why did the TFG then report a FURTHER three bodies upstairs instead of four?
Two boys in one bedroom. June visible from the doorway of another. Sheila not visible from there.
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Two boys in one bedroom. June visible from the doorway of another. Sheila not visible from there.
Yes the police would have shortly afterwards said '4 bodies'.
The CT probably just took the 3 bodies section of a radio log & made a big fuss.
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Two boys in one bedroom. June visible from the doorway of another. Sheila not visible from there.
Gotcha Jane,June and Sheila were BOTH found before the twins.
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Gotcha Jane,June and Sheila were BOTH found before the twins.
I guess they were dyscalculia, too.
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I guess they were dyscalculia, too.
You see,some things cant be easily sxplained Jane.And THAT is why i STILL have reasonable doubt!
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Two bodies found in kitchen UPON ENTRY, a further THREE bodies found upstairs.
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TWO MISTAKES TO EXPLAIN----IF THEY ARE MISTAKES!
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You see,some things cant be easily sxplained Jane.And THAT is why i STILL have reasonable doubt!
Everything can be explained. It's just that some prefer a conspiracy.
I can't begin to imagine what sort of mayhem was the scene at WHF. Certainly, there will be those who'll tell you that all those present were trained, and they SHOULD have done........ and in theory, they were. However, nothing would have prepared them for what they witnessed. I'm certain you've heard that too many cooks spoil the broth. In this case, they were tripping over each others' feet. 'Course, none of those present will be likely to tell you that they threw up, but they probably did, and they probably didn't get to sort out what they each did until they were debriefed. The chances are quite strong that some of those who were there will never get over what they witnessed. However, here we are, 36 years down the line, poking fun of them. We love that, if we're to believe Mike, Bews was so scared he defecated as he was running away.
It wasn't their finest hour -partly down to JB's interference- and they'll openly tell you that that getting a case wrong now is referred to as doing "a Bamber". If nothing else, it's become an exercise in "How Not To".
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Everything can be explained. It's just that some prefer a conspiracy.
I can't begin to imagine what sort of mayhem was the scene at WHF. Certainly, there will be those who'll tell you that all those present were trained, and they SHOULD have done........ and in theory, they were. However, nothing would have prepared them for what they witnessed. I'm certain you've heard that too many cooks spoil the broth. In this case, they were tripping over each others' feet. 'Course, none of those present will be likely to tell you that they threw up, but they probably did, and they probably didn't get to sort out what they each did until they were debriefed. The chances are quite strong that some of those who were there will never get over what they witnessed. However, here we are, 36 years down the line, poking fun of them. We love that, if we're to believe Mike, Bews was so scared he defecated as he was running away.
It wasn't their finest hour -partly down to JB's interference- and they'll openly tell you that that getting a case wrong now is referred to as doing "a Bamber". If nothing else, it's become an exercise in "How Not To".
I am happy for an explanation Jane,you know i am willing to accept JB is guilty and that no conspiricy took place.But at the moment i am having trouble accepting this.I will give you my take on the conversation when i find Mikes document about it again,and check exactly how it was worded.
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I'm unaware of the document to which you refer, perhaps you can provide the information.
Re said conversation. I think you should read it again. It says "...in conversation with a person from inside the farm", and then says ".... challenges to persons inside the house, met with no response". It differentiates between person and persons, and farm and house. The person with whom they're conversing is JB. Nobody from in the house responded to challenge. Don't worry about your mistake posters have been making the same for years.
Hi Jane,having re-read the log about the conversation, i agree they were in conversation with JB from inside the FARM and that the challenge to persons inside the HOUSE was met with no response.So i agree no contact was made with anyone in the house.
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An interesting thing here is Julie said Bamber had been on his tractor thinking about it all day.
This suggests he planned to go ahead regardless of Sheila's condition that night. Although he had seen her outside earlier in the day.
Either Sheila was docile & un cordinated 100% of the time, or Bamber was confident & determined enough to go ahead regardless of what state she was in.
He still had to attend WHF a few hours before the massacre. To confirm everything was in place. Him & PB confirming Sheila was non responsive to conversation attempts that night.
I've got to bump this
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Like many others, JB had no inkling whatsoever that Sheila's condition was one of desperation and deterioration, mentally. It was only when he gained permission to visit the prison library that he was able to read and study what her illness entailed. Prior to that he hadn't had a clue, particularly that it had impacted on the family as much as it had done. It wasn't spoken about.
JB wasn't with her 24/7 to see or experience her moods/behaviours over the times her condition worsened so could never judge how she appeared on the few times he saw her, so Adam's suggestion that he almost waited until she was at her lowest ebb is totally wrong.
The behaviour of a depressive/psychotic alters between elation and then a sudden drop in mood, so it was impossible to say that just because Sheila had fallen quiet when her aunt spoke to her on the phone hadn't meant to say that she was either doped or tired. It was purely and simply the calm before the storm !
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Like many others, JB had no inkling whatsoever that Sheila's condition was one of desperation and deterioration, mentally. It was only when he gained permission to visit the prison library that he was able to read and study what her illness entailed. Prior to that he hadn't had a clue, particularly that it had impacted on the family as much as it had done. It wasn't spoken about.
JB wasn't with her 24/7 to see or experience her moods/behaviours over the times her condition worsened so could never judge how she appeared on the few times he saw her, so Adam's suggestion that he almost waited until she was at her lowest ebb is totally wrong.
The behaviour of a depressive/psychotic alters between elation and then a sudden drop in mood, so it was impossible to say that just because Sheila had fallen quiet when her aunt spoke to her on the phone hadn't meant to say that she was either doped or tired. It was purely and simply the calm before the storm !
Yet his first statement to police is quite detailed in Sheila's history, including his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, given that he's supposed to be so ignorant of events. It includes a claim that Sheila " occasionally hit the children quite aggressively and forcibly."
As I have said previously it's difficult to analyse what comes out of Jeremy's mouth. I'm quite sure most of the biographical details are accurate, but any claim he makes which deflects responsibility from himself is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705
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Yet his first statement to police is quite detailed in Sheila's history, including his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, given that he's supposed to be so ignorant of events. It includes a claim that Sheila " occasionally hit the children quite aggressively and forcibly."
As I have said previously it's difficult to analyse what comes out of Jeremy's mouth. I'm quite sure most of the biographical details are accurate, but any claim he makes which deflects responsibility from himself is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705
What do you mean deflects responsibility from himself. Responsibility for what exactly?
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What do you mean deflects responsibility from himself. Responsibility for what exactly?
Responsibility for premeditated murder.
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Responsibility for premeditated murder.
The stance he has maintained adamantly from August 1985. Yes he has always claimed his innocence
For a moment I thought you were insulating that Jeremy was responsible for Shelia's mental health
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Yet his first statement to police is quite detailed in Sheila's history, including his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, given that he's supposed to be so ignorant of events. It includes a claim that Sheila " occasionally hit the children quite aggressively and forcibly."
As I have said previously it's difficult to analyse what comes out of Jeremy's mouth. I'm quite sure most of the biographical details are accurate, but any claim he makes which deflects responsibility from himself is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705
To my mind Steve Jeremy just parroted pieces of conversation that he'd heard and that was that, no such understanding of Sheila's actual illness nor did he take much interest in his younger years because true to say he was only interested in which posh restaurant he would patronise and how many cocktails he would sink. He acted like a free spirit after he'd done his chores and his only interest was being out and about, particularly after he'd moved into his own home, family were the least of his worries.
He was probably your average, normal 24 year old.
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To my mind Steve Jeremy just parroted pieces of conversation that he'd heard and that was that, no such understanding of Sheila's actual illness nor did he take much interest in his younger years because true to say he was only interested in which posh restaurant he would patronise and how many cocktails he would sink. He acted like a free spirit after he'd done his chores and his only interest was being out and about, particularly after he'd moved into his own home, family were the least of his worries.
He was probably your average, normal 24 year old.
I guess we can put to rest claims that he'd allegedly had previous calls, from Nevill, to assist with Sheila's behaviours. Had this occurred, some explanation would surely have been necessary and forthcoming. You're absolutely correct in that his thoughts were more on pleasure than hard work. Farming certainly isn't for the work-shy.
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I guess we can put to rest claims that he'd allegedly had previous calls, from Nevill, to assist with Sheila's behaviours. Had this occurred, some explanation would surely have been necessary and forthcoming. You're absolutely correct in that his thoughts were more on pleasure than hard work. Farming certainly isn't for the work-shy.
The only person who has ever said that is Lookout.
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Yet his first statement to police is quite detailed in Sheila's history, including his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, given that he's supposed to be so ignorant of events. It includes a claim that Sheila " occasionally hit the children quite aggressively and forcibly."
As I have said previously it's difficult to analyse what comes out of Jeremy's mouth. I'm quite sure most of the biographical details are accurate, but any claim he makes which deflects responsibility from himself is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705
JB was obviously not one to speak of his family in a derogatory manner and remained loyal towards their privacy so when he mentioned about Sheila hitting the children he wouldn't have said it in the same manner as Sheila had felt at the time when she had hit them. In other words, he wouldn't have emphasised that fact in a way to draw attention as in " she was no angel " and did this that and the other. He said very little to my mind so either he didn't understand that it was part and parcel of her condition or he hadn't realised that there was something radically wrong.
He'd have been asked a question about Sheila's behaviour with the boys, so he answered, naturally. What else was he supposed to have done ? By all accounts he hadn't elaborated in any way, he told the truth.