Was Sheila's condition at WHF irrelevant to Bamber?

[snow66!]

Two bodies found in kitchen UPON ENTRY, a further THREE bodies found upstairs.

[snow66!]

TWO MISTAKES TO EXPLAIN----IF THEY ARE MISTAKES!

[Jane]

You see,some things cant be easily sxplained Jane.And THAT is why i STILL have reasonable doubt!

Everything can be explained. It's just that some prefer a conspiracy.

I can't begin to imagine what sort of mayhem was the scene at WHF. Certainly, there will be those who'll tell you that all those present were trained, and they SHOULD have done........ and in theory, they were. However, nothing would have prepared them for what they witnessed. I'm certain you've heard that too many cooks spoil the broth. In this case, they were tripping over each others' feet. 'Course, none of those present will be likely to tell you that they threw up, but they probably did, and they probably didn't get to sort out what they each did until they were debriefed. The chances are quite strong that some of those who were there will never get over what they witnessed. However, here we are, 36 years down the line, poking fun of them. We love that, if we're to believe Mike, Bews was so scared he defecated as he was running away.

It wasn't their finest hour -partly down to JB's interference- and they'll openly tell you that that getting a case wrong now is referred to as doing "a Bamber". If nothing else, it's become an exercise in "How Not To".

[snow66!]

Everything can be explained. It's just that some prefer a conspiracy.

I can't begin to imagine what sort of mayhem was the scene at WHF. Certainly, there will be those who'll tell you that all those present were trained, and they SHOULD have done........ and in theory, they were. However, nothing would have prepared them for what they witnessed. I'm certain you've heard that too many cooks spoil the broth. In this case, they were tripping over each others' feet. 'Course, none of those present will be likely to tell you that they threw up, but they probably did, and they probably didn't get to sort out what they each did until they were debriefed. The chances are quite strong that some of those who were there will never get over what they witnessed. However, here we are, 36 years down the line, poking fun of them. We love that, if we're to believe Mike, Bews was so scared he defecated as he was running away.

It wasn't their finest hour -partly down to JB's interference- and they'll openly tell you that that getting a case wrong now is referred to as doing "a Bamber". If nothing else, it's become an exercise in "How Not To".

I am happy for an explanation Jane,you know i am willing to accept JB is guilty and that no conspiricy took place.But at the moment i am having trouble accepting this.I will give you my take on the conversation when i find Mikes document about it again,and check exactly how it was worded.

[snow66!]

 I'm unaware of the document to which you refer, perhaps you can provide the information.

Re said conversation. I think you should read it again. It says "...in conversation with a person from inside the farm", and then says ".... challenges to persons inside the house, met with no response". It differentiates between person and persons, and farm and house. The person with whom they're conversing is JB. Nobody from in the house responded to challenge. Don't worry about your mistake posters have been making the same for years.

Hi Jane,having re-read the log about the conversation, i agree they were in conversation with JB from inside the FARM and that the challenge to persons inside the HOUSE was met with no response.So i agree no contact was made with anyone in the house.

[ILB]

An interesting thing here is Julie said Bamber had been on his tractor thinking about it all day.

This suggests he planned to go ahead regardless of Sheila's condition that night. Although he had seen her outside earlier in the day.

Either Sheila was docile & un cordinated 100% of the time, or Bamber was confident & determined enough to go ahead regardless of what state she was in. 

He still had to attend WHF a few hours before the massacre. To confirm everything was in place. Him & PB confirming Sheila was non responsive to conversation attempts that night.

I've got to bump this

[lookout]

Like many others, JB had no inkling whatsoever that Sheila's condition was one of desperation and deterioration, mentally. It was only when he gained permission to visit the prison library that he was able to read and study what her illness entailed. Prior to that he hadn't had a clue, particularly that it had impacted on the family as much as it had done. It wasn't spoken about.

JB wasn't with her 24/7 to see or experience her moods/behaviours over the times her condition worsened so could never judge how she appeared on the few times he saw her, so Adam's suggestion that he almost waited until she was at her lowest ebb is totally wrong.
The behaviour of a depressive/psychotic alters between elation and then a sudden drop in mood, so it was impossible to say that just because Sheila had fallen quiet when her aunt spoke to her on the phone hadn't meant to say that she was either doped or tired. It was purely and simply the calm before the storm !   

[Steve_uk]

Like many others, JB had no inkling whatsoever that Sheila's condition was one of desperation and deterioration, mentally. It was only when he gained permission to visit the prison library that he was able to read and study what her illness entailed. Prior to that he hadn't had a clue, particularly that it had impacted on the family as much as it had done. It wasn't spoken about.

JB wasn't with her 24/7 to see or experience her moods/behaviours over the times her condition worsened so could never judge how she appeared on the few times he saw her, so Adam's suggestion that he almost waited until she was at her lowest ebb is totally wrong.
The behaviour of a depressive/psychotic alters between elation and then a sudden drop in mood, so it was impossible to say that just because Sheila had fallen quiet when her aunt spoke to her on the phone hadn't meant to say that she was either doped or tired. It was purely and simply the calm before the storm !   

Yet his first statement to police is quite detailed in Sheila's history, including his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, given that he's supposed to be so ignorant of events. It includes a claim that Sheila " occasionally hit the children quite aggressively and forcibly."

As I have said previously it's difficult to analyse what comes out of Jeremy's mouth. I'm quite sure most of the biographical details are accurate, but any claim he makes which deflects responsibility from himself is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705

[ILB]

Yet his first statement to police is quite detailed in Sheila's history, including his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, given that he's supposed to be so ignorant of events. It includes a claim that Sheila " occasionally hit the children quite aggressively and forcibly."

As I have said previously it's difficult to analyse what comes out of Jeremy's mouth. I'm quite sure most of the biographical details are accurate, but any claim he makes which deflects responsibility from himself is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705

What do you mean deflects responsibility from himself. Responsibility for what exactly?

[Steve_uk]

What do you mean deflects responsibility from himself. Responsibility for what exactly?

Responsibility for premeditated murder.

[ILB]

Responsibility for premeditated murder.

The stance he has maintained adamantly from August 1985. Yes he has always claimed his innocence

For a moment I thought you were insulating that Jeremy was responsible for Shelia's mental health

[lookout]

Yet his first statement to police is quite detailed in Sheila's history, including his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, given that he's supposed to be so ignorant of events. It includes a claim that Sheila " occasionally hit the children quite aggressively and forcibly."

As I have said previously it's difficult to analyse what comes out of Jeremy's mouth. I'm quite sure most of the biographical details are accurate, but any claim he makes which deflects responsibility from himself is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705

To my mind Steve Jeremy just parroted pieces of conversation that he'd heard and that was that, no such understanding of Sheila's actual illness nor did he take much interest in his younger years because true to say he was only interested in which posh restaurant he would patronise and how many cocktails he would sink. He acted like a free spirit after he'd done his chores and his only interest was being out and about, particularly after he'd moved into his own home, family were the least of his worries.
He was probably your average, normal 24 year old.

[Jane]

To my mind Steve Jeremy just parroted pieces of conversation that he'd heard and that was that, no such understanding of Sheila's actual illness nor did he take much interest in his younger years because true to say he was only interested in which posh restaurant he would patronise and how many cocktails he would sink. He acted like a free spirit after he'd done his chores and his only interest was being out and about, particularly after he'd moved into his own home, family were the least of his worries.
He was probably your average, normal 24 year old.

I guess we can put to rest claims that he'd allegedly had previous calls, from Nevill, to assist with Sheila's behaviours. Had this occurred, some explanation would surely have been necessary and forthcoming. You're absolutely correct in that his thoughts were more on pleasure than hard work. Farming certainly isn't for the work-shy.

[Adam]

I guess we can put to rest claims that he'd allegedly had previous calls, from Nevill, to assist with Sheila's behaviours. Had this occurred, some explanation would surely have been necessary and forthcoming. You're absolutely correct in that his thoughts were more on pleasure than hard work. Farming certainly isn't for the work-shy.

The only person who has ever said that is Lookout.

[lookout]

Yet his first statement to police is quite detailed in Sheila's history, including his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, given that he's supposed to be so ignorant of events. It includes a claim that Sheila " occasionally hit the children quite aggressively and forcibly."

As I have said previously it's difficult to analyse what comes out of Jeremy's mouth. I'm quite sure most of the biographical details are accurate, but any claim he makes which deflects responsibility from himself is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705

JB was obviously not one to speak of his family in a derogatory manner and remained loyal towards their privacy so when he mentioned about Sheila hitting the children he wouldn't have said it in the same manner as Sheila had felt at the time when she had hit them. In other words, he wouldn't have emphasised that fact in a way to draw attention as in " she was no angel " and did this that and the other. He said very little to my mind so either he didn't understand that it was part and parcel of her condition or he hadn't realised that there was something radically wrong.

He'd have been asked a question about Sheila's behaviour with the boys, so he answered, naturally. What else was he supposed to have done ? By all accounts he hadn't elaborated in any way, he told the truth.