A New Approach

[Stephanie]

I am not claiming it to be anything else.  So much on the forum is hearsay.

But you suggested you felt sure it came from Julie and stated as far as you were aware it hadn't come from Bamber? When it seems clear that's exactly where it came from.

I cannot I'm afraid but I am sure it came from Julie however as I read it a few years ago I simply can't remember.  Because I have no proof that this is definitely true I have not stated it as fact but rather as a possibility. I am aware that her parents and step father are still alive so I am careful in my wording as I don't want to appear to be accusing anyone of abuse or bad parenting.   As far as I am aware it didn't come via JB but we can never be sure of anything as so much is hearsay etc.  I do know that her background was not great

How do you know her background wasn't great?

And now Jackie is claiming to know "all about it" 

I know all about this because Jeremy talked at length about this and there is loads more that involves her mother and stepfather which does not appear on this forum and involves her mother and stepfather but will make no difference to this case so there is no need to post anything
I just hate this constant speculation
I do know why Mary Mugford didn't like Jeremy and her behaviour has been disgraceful to him

[maggie]

But you suggested you felt sure it came from Julie and stated as far as you were aware it hadn't come from Bamber? When it seems clear that's exactly where it came from.

How do you know her background wasn't great?

And now Jackie is claiming to know "all about it" 

I have told you I have heard this from someone from the area who I trust however this is personal information.  NN may have quoted JB but that may not be the only reference to it. Even if it is from JB it does not necessarily mean it isn't true.  I am not in the habit of making false claims on here.

[Stephanie]

I know all about this because Jeremy talked at length about this and there is loads more that involves her mother and stepfather which does not appear on this forum and involves her mother and stepfather but will make no difference to this case so there is no need to post anything
I just hate this constant speculation
I do know why Mary Mugford didn't like Jeremy and her behaviour has been disgraceful to him

If it will make no difference to his case have you never then considered what motivated him to "talk at length" about what he alleges?

Could it be he wants to infuriate you yet further and and hopes you will do his dirty work for him by smearing JM's name yet further?

[Stephanie]

I have told you I have heard this from someone from the area who I trust however this is personal information.  NN may have quoted JB but that may not be the only reference to it. Even if it is from JB it does not necessarily mean it isn't true.  I am not in the habit of making false claims on here.

I have not suggested you are in the habit of making false claims on here; I've clearly stated the source to be Jeremy Bamber. I'm merely attempting to separate facts from myths in order to further debate.

But you appear to be confirming the allegations are fact but can't confirm because you've been told it's "personal information?"

[Caroline]

I know all about this because Jeremy talked at length about this and there is loads more that involves her mother and stepfather which does not appear on this forum and involves her mother and stepfather but will make no difference to this case so there is no need to post anything
I just hate this constant speculation
I do know why Mary Mugford didn't like Jeremy and her behaviour has been disgraceful to him

Did Jeremy tell you Mary Mugford didn't like him?

[Adam]

Mary Mugford did not testify that she didn't like Bamber.

[Adam]

Chapter 31, page 220 of Wilkes's book - 

Julies mother Mary Mugford followed her daughter into the witness box. 

She said 'Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. And he resented her for loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & I felt he was more affectionate to me'. 

'He used to call me mummy all the time. He offerred me his mothers small car which had been bought that Christmas. This was just after the shooting. A list had been drawn up and he was going to keep no momentoes, which I thought very strange. He wanted to sell everthing'. 

'Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him away to boarding school. He never forgave her for that. 

'Apparently she was a religious maniac'. 

'A few months before the murders Jeremy had told me her mother was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons, on whom she doted'. 

'Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection towards him'. 

'He often spoke of this'. 

[ngb1066]

Did Jeremy tell you Mary Mugford didn't like him?

I suspect Jackie may have mis-typed her post and meant to say "I do not know..etc".  I believe Jeremy in fact got on well with Mary Mugford and helped her in a way which caused her to be grateful to him.

[Adam]

Bit creepy calling you're girlfriends mother 'mummy'.

'Mrs Mugford' or 'Mary' would be more normal.

[David1819]

Chapter 31, page 220 of Wilkes's book -

Julies mother Mary Mugford followed her daughter into the witness box.

She said 'Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. And he resented her for loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & I felt he was more affectionate to me'.

'He used to call me mummy all the time. He offerred me his mothers small car which had been bought that Christmas. This was just after the shooting. A list had been drawn up and he was going to keep no momentoes, which I thought very strange. He wanted to sell everthing'.

'Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him away to boarding school. He never forgave her for that.

'Apparently she was a religious maniac'.

'A few months before the murders Jeremy had told me her mother was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons, on whom she doted'.

'Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection towards him'.

'He often spoke of this'.

Is that from the book verbatim? If so its not in the format of a trial transcript.

The more this book is used as a source, the more unreliable it seems to become.

[Steve_uk]

Is that from the book verbatim? If so its not in the format of a trial transcript.

The more this book is used as a source, the more unreliable it seems to become.

The books do make use of witness statements. I don't think there's a full transcript of the 1986 trial anyway.

[Steve_uk]

Arh right. Do you then mean she may have been codependent? https://downtherabbitholeblog.org/2016/08/08/h-g-tudors-theory-of-narcissism-and-codependency/

"HG Tudor […] poses a theory that the codependent who is bound to a narcissist is actually a person who was set up in childhood to be a narcissist him/herself, but was arrested in development at some point along the way, and unable to develop the necessary skills to “blossom” into full blown narcissism. This is why, he theorizes, the codependent needs the narcissist, because their inner beasts are the same, and the codependent actually needs the narcissist in order to keep their beast at bay in the same way the narcissist does with his/her own mask, which the codependent is unable to do on his own.

I'm not sure I see Julie as a narcissist. She didn't seem to be the type for constant self-examination or deep reflection. Far likelier the case I read about today of a young man who murdered his wife before committing suicide, thirty always being a difficult age as it marks the end of one's youth, possibly losing friends from a younger age group whilst shouldering commitments and the acknowledgement of unrealizable dreams. He had posted a picture of their wedding day only hours before their deaths, suggesting that the tragedy had been pre-planned, the perpetrator reminiscing on happier times. His love of Captain America and computer games suggested a conflict where the dichotomy of past and modern times had not been resolved, there may have been a financial burden with outstanding tuition fees from university studies, and the ultimate act of narcissism as James Barnes vowed to take her with him on their final journey together, so no other man would be able to possess her..

[Adam]

The books do make use of witness statements. I don't think there's a full transcript of the 1986 trial anyway.

An investigative author like Wilkes will also speak to people who were in court when MM testified. He would have about 30 people to chose from.

[Jane]

I'm not sure I see Julie as a narcissist. She didn't seem to be the type for constant self-examination or deep reflection. Far likelier the case I read about today of a young man who murdered his wife before committing suicide, thirty always being a difficult age as it marks the end of one's youth, possibly losing friends from a younger age group whilst shouldering commitments and the acknowledgement of unrealizable dreams. He had posted a picture of their wedding day only hours before their deaths, suggesting that the tragedy had been pre-planned, the perpetrator reminiscing on happier times. His love of Captain America and computer games suggested a conflict where the dichotomy of past and modern times had not been resolved, there may have been a financial burden with outstanding tuition fees from university studies, and the ultimate act of narcissism as James Barnes vowed to take her with him on their final journey together, so no other man would be able to possess her..

Steve, I believe HG Tudor's theory to be a furtherance of the widely accepted theory that when we first lock eyes with our significant other, in that second we recognize them as being the missing part we've been seeking to make us complete. I don't mean this -necessarily- in a romantic way. The outcome isn't always a happy one. The relationship may be toxic, but we will each know/fall in with the steps of this particular 'dance' without having to be taught them. Romantics might label it as falling in love at first sight. Cynics will recognize that it may have a more Machiavellian quality.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, I believe HG Tudor's theory to be a furtherance of the widely accepted theory that when we first lock eyes with our significant other, in that second we recognize them as being the missing part we've been seeking to make us complete. I don't mean this -necessarily- in a romantic way. The outcome isn't always a happy one. The relationship may be toxic, but we will each know/fall in with the steps of this particular 'dance' without having to be taught them. Romantics might label it as falling in love at first sight. Cynics will recognize that it may have a more Machiavellian quality.

Yes I thought we seek out from others what we lack in ourselves. I'm not sure if this alleged deficiency lasts into middle age, however. Whatever Julie was she was a grafter, and what 20-year-old is not entitled to fall in love, one might ask?