Guardian - 24th March 2017

[Jane]

Because Sheila " had allegedly shown no interest in using a gun " doesn't mean a thing ! Whether it had been said or not.

I guess it's possible for most people to fire a gun. Whether they could fire it accurately, ie hit a target is another question -a little more difficult, wouldn't think, for someone with hand/eye coordination problems. It's an entirely other question as to whether someone who has no knowledge of guns could reload it and yet another question as to whether someone could reload it who was known to have hand/eye coordination problems AND be over sedated. 

[lookout]

I guess it's possible for most people to fire a gun. Whether they could fire it accurately, ie hit a target is another question -a little more difficult, wouldn't think, for someone with hand/eye coordination problems. It's an entirely other question as to whether someone who has no knowledge of guns could reload it and yet another question as to whether someone could reload it who was known to have hand/eye coordination problems AND be over sedated.

There was no accuracy about this shooting. It was a firing frenzy judging by the overkill where the shooter had been totally unaware of the deaths of her targets. No skill was adopted being a foot or two away,in some cases,contact. " Coordination problems " would have even highlighted the manner of the shots and as for being " over-sedated "------was just a myth brought about those who say that JB was guilty.

[Jane]

There was no accuracy about this shooting. It was a firing frenzy judging by the overkill where the shooter had been totally unaware of the deaths of her targets. No skill was adopted being a foot or two away,in some cases,contact. " Coordination problems " would have even highlighted the manner of the shots and as for being " over-sedated "------was just a myth brought about those who say that JB was guilty.

How many bullets DIDN'T hit their mark? They all found their target. THIS from the girl who was reputed not to be able to put beans on toast or get tea into a cup!!! Are you now suggesting that her doctor was a LIAR in saying she was oversedated? Are you suggesting there was no need to reduce her medication?

[lookout]

How many bullets DIDN'T hit their mark? They all found their target. THIS from the girl who was reputed not to be able to put beans on toast or get tea into a cup!!! Are you now suggesting that her doctor was a LIAR in saying she was oversedated? Are you suggesting there was no need to reduce her medication?

From 1 or 2 feet away,it's hardly surprising that bullets didn't miss their mark. It couldn't fail.
I'm not calling her doctor a " liar "-----you said that,not me ! He'd over-estimated her meds to start with,then drastically reduced them which is the worst thing ANYONE can do with whatever medication is taken. It has to be reduced by degrees and monitored in order for the appropriate dose to be given.

[Jane]

From 1 or 2 feet away,it's hardly surprising that bullets didn't miss their mark. It couldn't fail.
I'm not calling her doctor a " liar "-----you said that,not me ! He'd over-estimated her meds to start with,then drastically reduced them which is the worst thing ANYONE can do with whatever medication is taken. It has to be reduced by degrees and monitored in order for the appropriate dose to be given.

It's all so easy, from the side lines, to say 'they' should/shouldn't have done................. What were the alternatives when she was unable to cope with the side effects? If a reduction in meds over a long period of time was the answer, how long would she have had to suffer intolerable side effects? We don't know the background story to the reasons for such a high dose in the beginning.

One would have thought that beans could be placed on toast, as opposed to tiles, from FAR closer than 1 or 2 feet away but apparently not. You stated that "over sedated" was a myth, ergo, it was -allegedly- a lie.

[lookout]

It's all so easy, from the side lines, to say 'they' should/shouldn't have done................. What were the alternatives when she was unable to cope with the side effects? If a reduction in meds over a long period of time was the answer, how long would she have had to suffer intolerable side effects? We don't know the background story to the reasons for such a high dose in the beginning.

One would have thought that beans could be placed on toast, as opposed to tiles, from FAR closer than 1 or 2 feet away but apparently not. You stated that "over sedated" was a myth, ergo, it was -allegedly- a lie.

For this reason,nobody knows anything of Sheila's condition until we know the full extent of her problem and why she had to have such a high dose of the stuff to begin with,and intravenously too,hence why a glance at her records would show this.
Speculation about Sheila's illness should never have been kept from the trial. It was so one-sided,contradicted by the judge as saying it " could have been either Sheila or Jeremy " when NOBODY had known about Sheila.

Sheila's condition had appeared to have been chronic depression as opposed to schizophrenia.IMO. 

[Jane]

For this reason,nobody knows anything of Sheila's condition until we know the full extent of her problem and why she had to have such a high dose of the stuff to begin with,and intravenously too,hence why a glance at her records would show this.
Speculation about Sheila's illness should never have been kept from the trial. It was so one-sided,contradicted by the judge as saying it " could have been either Sheila or Jeremy " when NOBODY had known about Sheila.

Sheila's condition had appeared to have been chronic depression as opposed to schizophrenia.IMO.

We DO know why she was medicated intravenously. The second breakdown occurred, in part, because she neglected to take her medication and also neglected to turn up for follow up appointments.

Whilst I know what types of mental illness will respond to counseling, I certainly don't feel competent to judge whether severe depression might be schizophrenia. On the other hand, I've yet to meet anyone with depression who believes themselves to be Joan of Arc or the Virgin Mary, so I'd imagine that would be a clue. 

[maggie]

We DO know why she was medicated intravenously. The second breakdown occurred, in part, because she neglected to take her medication and also neglected to turn up for follow up appointments.

Whilst I know what types of mental illness will respond to counseling, I certainly don't feel competent to judge whether severe depression might be schizophrenia. On the other hand, I've yet to meet anyone with depression who believes themselves to be Joan of Arc or the Virgin Mary, so I'd imagine that would be a clue.

I know scizophrenia can cause an anxiety type depression but I don't know whether this is a side effect of Scizophrenia due to the isolation and unpleasantness of both the illness and medication or integral to the disease.  Personally I have no doubt that Sheila's diagnosis was correct.

[lookout]

We DO know why she was medicated intravenously. The second breakdown occurred, in part, because she neglected to take her medication and also neglected to turn up for follow up appointments.

Whilst I know what types of mental illness will respond to counseling, I certainly don't feel competent to judge whether severe depression might be schizophrenia. On the other hand, I've yet to meet anyone with depression who believes themselves to be Joan of Arc or the Virgin Mary, so I'd imagine that would be a clue.

My friend's daughter who was sectioned last year had delusions along with paranoia but was NOT diagnosed with schizophrenia. It had been chronic depression which had gone untreated for 17 years !
Post-partum psychosis was to my mind,a problem with Sheila which would have gone unnoticed and unrecognised in  the 1970's.

[Jane]

My friend's daughter who was sectioned last year had delusions along with paranoia but was NOT diagnosed with schizophrenia. It had been chronic depression which had gone untreated for 17 years !
Post-partum psychosis was to my mind,a problem with Sheila which would have gone unnoticed and unrecognised in  the 1970's.

I've yet to find post partum depression which lasts for 6 years!!!! Your friend's daughter is either a one off -such do occur- OR perhaps SHE was misdiagnosed.

[lookout]

I've yet to find post partum depression which lasts for 6 years!!!! Your friend's daughter is either a one off -such do occur- OR perhaps SHE was misdiagnosed.

Post-partum psychosis is the result of post-natal depression that when left untreated/undiagnosed leads to a more severe form of the illness. The amount of years a woman suffers knows no bounds and it's not a " one-off " as you say,nor was the woman misdiagnosed as her mother and I already had our suspicions beforehand. The length of time depicted the age of the woman's daughter. 

[Jane]

Post-partum psychosis is the result of post-natal depression that when left untreated/undiagnosed leads to a more severe form of the illness. The amount of years a woman suffers knows no bounds and it's not a " one-off " as you say,nor was the woman misdiagnosed as her mother and I already had our suspicions beforehand. The length of time depicted the age of the woman's daughter.

The problem I have here, Lookout,is that it sounds as if you've, single handed, found yet another case of misdiagnosis which fits your bill. You seem determined that Sheila wasn't schizophrenic even though her symptoms suggest it.
 Throughout my time as a hairdresser I've been able to 'diagnose' 5 cases of, what I believed to be, cancer. I had to be able to differentiate between what I could treat and what I had to leave to others. As it happens, I was right on 3 occasions. On the 4th, the client said her doctor had said there was "nothing to worry about". I don't believe she asked her doctor. I mentioned a problem to the other client who said it was just sunburn. A year on it was significantly worse. He then agreed to see his doctor.
I have never made sweeping claims about knowing better than specialists. I could only voice concerns. I can't help but wonder from where comes your claim to know more than every specialist -medical and legal- who disagrees with what you believe to be true. That's one hell of a lot of self belief..................or simply delusional?

[lookout]

The problem I have here, Lookout,is that it sounds as if you've, single handed, found yet another case of misdiagnosis which fits your bill. You seem determined that Sheila wasn't schizophrenic even though her symptoms suggest it.
 Throughout my time as a hairdresser I've been able to 'diagnose' 5 cases of, what I believed to be, cancer. I had to be able to differentiate between what I could treat and what I had to leave to others. As it happens, I was right on 3 occasions. On the 4th, the client said her doctor had said there was "nothing to worry about". I don't believe she asked her doctor. I mentioned a problem to the other client who said it was just sunburn. A year on it was significantly worse. He then agreed to see his doctor.
I have never made sweeping claims about knowing better than specialists. I could only voice concerns. I can't help but wonder from where comes your claim to know more than every specialist -medical and legal- who disagrees with what you believe to be true. That's one hell of a lot of self belief..................or simply delusional?

One thing I'm not and that's delusional.
 Obviously over the years I've come to know certain illnesses which past training has put me to the test. What a sheer waste of college and time spent training if I'd known nothing at all.!
Thank goodness I do have self-belief and am able to detect my own skin cancers as opposed to ordinary moles and I naturally expect most adults to know their own bodies better than anyone. I'd rather self-diagnose than leave it to some incompetent !

Mistakes have been made by specialists/consultants and GP's.
My family and myself are devastated at the moment,caused by a wrong diagnosis and inappropriate medication,knowing it had been wrong 4 months ago,then again a month later.How do you argue against those who you think know better ?? Sit back and say nothing while that person suffers ?   

Back to Sheila who I think was a depressive rather than a schizophrenic. Even bi-polar fits her description,where they have outbursts of violence,but who are still perfectly capable of carrying on as normal. Somehow Sheila's symptoms didn't have the continual severity of a schizophrenic nor did it interfere with her partying as such people are usually withdrawn.
Doctor Ferguson's diagnosis had been such that when he'd diagnosed schizophrenia,he promptly ignored the fact that Sheila had told him she could harm the twins ?? Ignore what a "schizophrenic" says ?

[Jane]

One thing I'm not and that's delusional.
 Obviously over the years I've come to know certain illnesses which past training has put me to the test. What a sheer waste of college and time spent training if I'd known nothing at all.!
Thank goodness I do have self-belief and am able to detect my own skin cancers as opposed to ordinary moles and I naturally expect most adults to know their own bodies better than anyone. I'd rather self-diagnose than leave it to some incompetent !

Mistakes have been made by specialists/consultants and GP's.
My family and myself are devastated at the moment,caused by a wrong diagnosis and inappropriate medication,knowing it had been wrong 4 months ago,then again a month later.How do you argue against those who you think know better ?? Sit back and say nothing while that person suffers ?   

Back to Sheila who I think was a depressive rather than a schizophrenic. Even bi-polar fits her description,where they have outbursts of violence,but who are still perfectly capable of carrying on as normal. Somehow Sheila's symptoms didn't have the continual severity of a schizophrenic nor did it interfere with her partying as such people are usually withdrawn.
Doctor Ferguson's diagnosis had been such that when he'd diagnosed schizophrenia,he promptly ignored the fact that Sheila had told him she could harm the twins ?? Ignore what a "schizophrenic" says ?

Providing schizophrenics are correctly medicated they will remain on an even keel and lead normal lives which, YES, includes "partying". Sheila's problems seemed to stem from her not taking her meds. You completely overlook that Sheila was afraid she "might hurt/harm the twins" -she never mentioned killing them- PRIOR to her first admission to St Andrews in 1983. Presumably, once stabilised, she stopped having these thoughts. Her problems recurred when she stopped taking her meds. You seemed to have lumped all these occurrences into the same time line. You choose to overlook why she was given intravenous meds, when it's been said numerous times why.

As for self diagnosis, Malcolm told his consultant that all he was suffering was a bout of food poisoning picked up in Egypt. He was a very forceful character. They didn't argue with him. I told him I hoped he was right and that it hadn't been pancreatitis. EXACTLY 60 months later, within the pancreatitis time line, he died of sepsis caused by undiagnosed chronic. So much for self diagnosis, eh?

[mike tesko]

Undisclosed evidence is obviously everything and anything which discredits the prosecutions claim that Jeremy (not the police) supposedly shot and killed his sister! Cops don't appear to have to be sneaky in fabricating evidence and training someone, we have members of the public who can't even recognise false evidence on the part of dodgy cops!