Guardian - 24th March 2017

[Samson]

It would have been the case had she been an older person,but she wasn't, and because the stuff was wearing off anyway and not as effective as first given, the effects would no longer have been that she was over-sedated.

I think this over-sedation excuse is wearing a bit thin,considering it's been used in every thread now.

This could all have happened while Jeremy was a 100 miles away.
Would we be claiming Sheila didn't do it because she was too sedated?

The reality is that the strength and energy required according to the classic reconstruction is just enough to hold and fire a light long gun without a silencer.
Does Caroline contend this is impossible? I guess I should ask her but I am here now.
In the classic reconstruction she might swing the gun by the barrel. Do we contend this is impossible? Poor old Jeremy for being near at hand. These cases all end this way with idiot assertions of impossibilities.

[Jane]

This could all have happened while Jeremy was a 100 miles away.
Would we be claiming Sheila didn't do it because she was too sedated?

The reality is that the strength and energy required according to the classic reconstruction is just enough to hold and fire a light long gun without a silencer.
Does Caroline contend this is impossible? I guess I should ask her but I am here now.
In the classic reconstruction she might swing the gun by the barrel. Do we contend this is impossible? Poor old Jeremy for being near at hand. These cases all end this way with idiot assertions of impossibilities.

Forgive me for pointing out what a crassly stupid comment you made. Had Jeremy been 100 miles away, they'd all have still been alive.

[lebaleb]

Forgive me for pointing out what a crassly stupid comment you made. Had Jeremy been 100 miles away, they'd all have still been alive.

Forgive me for pointing out that you have totally missed the point of this comment, Jane. Samson was postulating on Sheila's ability to commit the crime had Jeremy been out of the picture. Not stupid at all!

[mike tesko]

It does not sit right, the suggestion that the silencer was fitted to the end of the rifle barrel when Neville Bamber struggled with the shooter for his life in the kitchen, where it has been alleged that the muzzle end of the silencer supposedly struck the red painted kitchen aga and got crush layers of paint ingrained in the knurled pattern upon the circumference of the metal end cap, and the silencer was still supposedly on the barrel of the rifle when the shot that killed Sheila got shot and her unique blood group got into the silencer, drying into a flake of what turned out to be her own blood - what a remarkable sequence of events!!

Somehow in-between all these things occurring from start to finish, there has to be some impossible opportunity then, for the shooter to cause gouge marks on one of Neville Bambers forearm which we now know were made by the threadbare muzzle end of the rifles barrel, minus any silencer or its own metal end cap! Yet to be fathomed out, is how the silencer was supposedly always fitted to the barrel of the rifle during Neville Bambers murder, and Sheila Caffells suicide? If the shooter made the gouge marks with the sharp edges of the rifles barrel (minus a silencer, or its own end cap) then how the devil could the silencer still be fitted to the guns barrel when Sheila got shot?

How did Sheila's blood get into the silencer, if the silencer wasn't fitted to the barrel of the rifle when the shooter damaged Neville Bambers forearm before killing him?

[mike tesko]

It does not sit right, the suggestion that the silencer was fitted to the end of the rifle barrel when Neville Bamber struggled with the shooter for his life in the kitchen, where it has been alleged that the muzzle end of the silencer supposedly struck the red painted kitchen aga and got crush layers of paint ingrained in the knurled pattern upon the circumference of the metal end cap, and the silencer was still supposedly on the barrel of the rifle when the shot that killed Sheila got shot and her unique blood group got into the silencer, drying into a flake of what turned out to be her own blood - what a remarkable sequence of events!!

Somehow in-between all these things occurring from start to finish, there has to be some impossible opportunity then, for the shooter to cause gouge marks on one of Neville Bambers forearm which we now know were made by the threadbare muzzle end of the rifles barrel, minus any silencer or its own metal end cap! Yet to be fathomed out, is how the silencer was supposedly always fitted to the barrel of the rifle during Neville Bambers murder, and Sheila Caffells suicide? If the shooter made the gouge marks with the sharp edges of the rifles barrel (minus a silencer, or its own end cap) then how the devil could the silencer still be fitted to the guns barrel when Sheila got shot?

How did Sheila's blood get into the silencer, if the silencer wasn't fitted to the barrel of the rifle when the shooter damaged Neville Bambers forearm before killing him?

If the gouge marks I am alluding to, were made by the shooter using the rifle minus the silencer, or its own metal end cap, before Neville was killed off, why would the shooter put the silencer onto the barrel of the gun in order to shoot Sheila just to kill her, so that her unique blood could get into the silencer? Surely, irrespective of whether Sheila killed herself, or whether cops shot her, or whether someone else shot and killed her, why would they (any of them) put the silencer onto the barrel of the rifle, after Neville Bamber had been attacked, gouged by the rifles barrel minus a silencer, and effectively killed off?

Something drastically wrong with the official police, relatives, ballistic experts (Fletcher), and blood experts (Hayward) evidence in this case!!

The sequences of the above events do not tally up!

[lookout]

But she was withdrawn at the final party on the Saturday before the murders. What was running through her mind as she sat bereft, staring out of the window, gazing at Julie and with seemingly no interest in her boys?

Lookout I'd be interested in your thoughts as to the Zachary McLoughlin suicide, which I read about today. Do you think that some children just find the high pressure environment of school and social media just too much to live up to, is suicide a form of mental illness or do they know what they are doing as the last few seconds of their life approach?   http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/brave-mums-brutally-honest-words-10066872

Only just seen this Steve,very heartbreaking indeed.
I did read a day or two ago of the amount of suicides in Australia involving teens/young men and it's almost like an epidemic.

First of all,are their expectations too high ? To do well at school,be fiercely competetive at sports,look their best,and worse,looking for perfection.
I would NEVER push children, for as long as they can read and write,it's good enough for me.
Having been to Australia on many an occasion,I'll say one thing which I noticed that a lot of parents even at infant school,seemed to be " pushing " their children the minute that school was over with " dance classes/ballet/choir/swimming/the gym/piano lessons/private tutor,etc etc " and I could see the child being reluctantly dragged to one of these straight after school, sessions.
The parents seemed overly protective/stifling, fussing and faffing,pandering to their needs.
My thoughts at the time,and now were let children be children and stop molding them into something that they will probably rebel about in later life.
Guide them and advise them,but NEVER expect the impossible from them.Life isn't about " keeping up " ,you'll get more out of a child if you don't have aspirations for them. Don't kill them with kindness !!

Some children aren't prepared for tough times in life,and after having had things easy in the formative years, they find it difficult to face facts if either the parents split or lose a job or pass away, and I think that a subject such as this should be part of the curriculum to prepare a child for such an eventuality to enable them to cope. A " talking " lesson would help a child deal with their situation,perhaps with a psychologist in attendance as well as others in similar situations. It's all about facing-up to grievances etc. and being able to trust those around you.

Suicide itself isn't a mental illness. It's about not being able to cope with stress. Some people are more prone than others,so it depends on your ability to cope under pressure and stress which is really down to your genetic make-up,though it may affect in other ways ( physically ) apart from mentally.

[Samson]

Forgive me for pointing out what a crassly stupid comment you made. Had Jeremy been 100 miles away, they'd all have still been alive.

Forgive me for pointing out what a crassly stupid comment you made. Had Jeremy been 100 miles away, they'd all have still been dead.

[mike tesko]

There was no silencer attached to the end of the rifles barrel when these gouge mark injuries were inflicted onto the forearm of Neville Bamber, that's for sure!!

[mike tesko]

These gouge marks have been identified by an expert to have been made by the sharp edges of the rifles barrel minus any silencer, or the guns own metal end cap!!

[Jane]

Forgive me for pointing out that you have totally missed the point of this comment, Jane. Samson was postulating on Sheila's ability to commit the crime had Jeremy been out of the picture. Not stupid at all!

I don't think Sheila could have committed the crime had Jeremy been standing by her side telling her how. We've all had the beans on tiles rather than on toast/she couldn't get tea into a cup thing rammed down out throats ad nauseum, yet we're expected to believe that she accurately shot 4 people from a distance of 1 to 2 feet away? -I don't recall reading about walls and paintwork being peppered with missed shots- and if that wasn't enough, she also managed to reload the gun!!! This is without taking her depression into account. To shoot all those people requires anger fueled, mental energy. For a full fortnight prior to the massacre, Sheila wasn't even capable of personal hygiene and grooming. She could barely raise the energy to speak, as Colin said of the journey to Essex. As the shop keeper said of her earlier that day. As June's friend said of her a little later, when they had tea with her. As Jeremy himself said of her, at supper, because he was there. NOT 100 miles away.

[Samson]

I don't think Sheila could have committed the crime had Jeremy been standing by her side telling her how. We've all had the beans on tiles rather than on toast/she couldn't get tea into a cup thing rammed down out throats ad nauseum, yet we're expected to believe that she accurately shot 4 people from a distance of 1 to 2 feet away? -I don't recall reading about walls and paintwork being peppered with missed shots- and if that wasn't enough, she also managed to reload the gun!!! This is without taking her depression into account. To shoot all those people requires anger fueled, mental energy. For a full fortnight prior to the massacre, Sheila wasn't even capable of personal hygiene and grooming. She could barely raise the energy to speak, as Colin said of the journey to Essex. As the shop keeper said of her earlier that day. As June's friend said of her a little later, when they had tea with her. As Jeremy himself said of her, at supper, because he was there. NOT 100 miles away.

JaneJ.
Do you know anything about how adrenaline affects performance?

[Jane]

Forgive me for pointing out what a crassly stupid comment you made. Had Jeremy been 100 miles away, they'd all have still been dead.

I'll certainly forgive you for following crassly stupid with more of the same. Given that you don't even seem to know the basic facts of this case, I don't know how it qualifies you to discuss it.

[Samson]

I'll certainly forgive you for following crassly stupid with more of the same. Given that you don't even seem to know the basic facts of this case, I don't know how it qualifies you to discuss it.

The basic facts were understood by Taff Jones. I hope you didn't rock that ladder.

[Jane]

JaneJ.
Do you know anything about how adrenaline affects performance?

I have at least looked at this from both sides. There WAS a time when I believed Sheila had done it, which is I guess what Jeremy intended when he filled in the waiting police. It seems to me that you're SO determined that Sheila did it, you're blind to what Jeremy did..................Oh, and I'm fully aware of what adrenaline does.

[mike tesko]

There has to be a police nvestigation which deals specifically with this aspect (and others) of the case!

(1) gouge marks on Neville Bambers forearm from sharp edge of gun barrel minus silencer before he was killed!

(2) Scratch marks which materialised on the aga surround, and paint from it found ingrained into the knurl end of the silencer, over a month afterwards!

(3) How Sheila's blood got into the silencer, as alluded to by balletic expert, Malcom Fletcher, relatives, blood expert, John Hayward, and cops, Ron Cook, and Stan Jones!

(4) How blood group results were obtained from a flake on 12th, 13th, 18th and 19th September, 1985, when the silencer inside which it was supposedly found by a combination of Fletcher and Hayward, was not submitted to the lab' to be checked for blood and fibers until 20th September, 1985...

Silencer didn't get sent to the lab' to be checked for blood until after the four key blood group results had already been obtained from examination of the fluid made from the key flake! This suggests that the flake arrived separately to the silencer, and that it was sent there on 30 the August 1985, under the exhibit reference DB/1, it being the flake David Boutflour had told police he had scraped from the outside of the silencer using a razor blade! If this be true, then the blood evidence relied upon to help prosecute and convict Jeremy Bamber of the murders is tainted, and unreliable, since David Boutflour and police officers and experts have all conspired to pervert the course of justice by falsely claiming that a silencer was honestly found inside which was a flake of dried blood which produced four blood groups matching Sheila's, when all along the tests performed at the lab' and the key results obtained, were obtained too soon for that explanation to be a true and honest one! These blighters between themselves have received the courts, they put the cart before the horse, and the Criminal Justice System bought the red herring, hook line and sinker!