Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Jerry on June 21, 2011, 07:10:PM
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I have been reading over the various posts at the weekend and what strikes me is that no professional hitman worth his salt would ever contemplate a series of murders using his victims guns and ammunition. The whole scenario is simply ridiculous. It is even more ridiculous to suggest that someone came into the house for whatever reason and decided to shoot everyone with the guns and ammo left lying around.
The resulting conclusion from this can only mean one thing, the shooter was either Sheila or Jeremy.
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The evidence in relation to Sheila is virtually unchallengeable. The total absence of any powder residue or gun oil on any part of her body and clothing, the perfect condition of her skin and finger nails and the two neat bullet wounds with blood trails which confirm that she was never upright after having been shot leave me in no doubt that Sheila could never have used the murder weapon that morning.
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The evidence in relation to Sheila is virtually unchallengeable. The total absence of any powder residue or gun oil on any part of her body and clothing, the perfect condition of her skin and finger nails and the two neat bullet wounds with blood trails which confirm that she was never upright after having been shot leave me in no doubt that Sheila could never have used the murder weapon that morning.
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Your description of Sheila's condition is not accurate...
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 1 male 1 female, downstairs............
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
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Additionally, Sheila's hands and feet were NOT immaculate as stated in the original trial.
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
They weren't talking to anyone except Jeremy. They were far too far from the house in any event to converse with anyone. Lots of reports of movement but nothing substantiated.
Sheila maybe took hours to die, maybe if the police had forced their way into the farmhouse hours earlier Sheila could have been saved. It was Jeremy who put the fear of god in the police to such an extent they would not approach the farmhouse until cavalry plod arrived. Lets just say Jeremy did his sister no favours but then he had a motive didn't he?
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Additionally, Sheila's hands and feet were NOT immaculate as stated in the original trial.
Oh but they were, one of the cops even wrapped them in plastic bags to preserve them.
No female with manicured nails ever loaded bullets into a magazine or a magazine in and out of a rifle quickly without sustaining staining and damage. The idea of it is totally preposterous.
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
They weren't talking to anyone except Jeremy. They were far too far from the house in any event to converse with anyone. Lots of reports of movement but nothing substantiated.
Sheila maybe took hours to die, maybe if the police had forced their way into the farmhouse hours earlier Sheila could have been saved. It was Jeremy who put the fear of god in the police to such an extent they would not approach the farmhouse until cavalry plod arrived. Lets say jeremy did his sister no favours but then he had a motive didn't he?
I'm sorry but you're mistaken - Sheila did not take 'hours to die' - it is medically accepted that the 2nd shot would have killed her almost instantaneously.
Sgt Bews reported back via radio, that there was movement from an upstairs window. This report back was transcripted as reported by Bews. It was sufficiently of concern that there was an immediate retreat away from WHF, to 'a safer' area
.
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Additionally, Sheila's hands and feet were NOT immaculate as stated in the original trial.
Oh but they were, one of the cops even wrapped them in plastic bags to preserve them.
No female with manicured nails ever loaded bullets into a magazine or a magazine in and out of a rifle quickly without sustaining staining and damage. The idea of it is totally preposterous.
How do you explain chipped nail polish and a picture of her feet ? MT could explain more about this if appropriate. I'm not sure how much can be disclosed.
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
They weren't talking to anyone except Jeremy. They were far too far from the house in any event to converse with anyone. Lots of reports of movement but nothing substantiated.
Sheila maybe took hours to die, maybe if the police had forced their way into the farmhouse hours earlier Sheila could have been saved. It was Jeremy who put the fear of god in the police to such an extent they would not approach the farmhouse until cavalry plod arrived. Lets say jeremy did his sister no favours but then he had a motive didn't he?
I'm sorry but you're mistaken - Sheila did not take 'hours to die' - it is medically accepted that the 2nd shot would have killed her almost instantaneously.
Sgt Bews reported back via radio, that there was movement from an upstairs window. This report back was transcripted as reported by Bews. It was sufficiently of concern that there was an immediate retreat away from WHF, to 'a safer' area
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Experts are often wrong, point is they don't like being challenged. Sheila could have lay there and bled for ages before she expired. It is just as likely as the sudden death theory.
The perceived movement has been dealt with at length on other threads.
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Additionally, Sheila's hands and feet were NOT immaculate as stated in the original trial.
Oh but they were, one of the cops even wrapped them in plastic bags to preserve them.
No female with manicured nails ever loaded bullets into a magazine or a magazine in and out of a rifle quickly without sustaining staining and damage. The idea of it is totally preposterous.
How do you explain chipped nail polish and a picture of her feet ? MT could explain more about this if appropriate. I'm not sure how much can be disclosed.
Please explain how a model like Sheila could ever have done what she was supposed to have done and end up in a pristine forensic state? It just doesn't happen in the real world.
I read somewhere that Jeremy was in a big rush to have the bloodied carpets removed from the farmhouse. Why was this I wonder?
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
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I have been reading over the various posts at the weekend and what strikes me is that no professional hitman worth his salt would ever contemplate a series of murders using his victims guns and ammunition. The whole scenario is simply ridiculous. It is even more ridiculous to suggest that someone came into the house for whatever reason and decided to shoot everyone with the guns and ammo left lying around.
The resulting conclusion from this can only mean one thing, the shooter was either Sheila or Jeremy.
If the hit man had to leave the scene looking like a suicide, then he'd have to use the weapons in the house.
If he was familiar with the gun, then it becomes more likely.
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Well, whilst dealing with the question of two bodies found downstairs, the body of one dead male and one dead female, there is a small group of police officers who have a great deal of explaining to do, over this matter - who up to date, despite some 26 years having elapsed, have all remained tight lipped about the various roles they all played in the unfolding drama which led to it being divulged that two bodies had indeed been found downstairs in the kitchen upon entry to the premises by police...
The identities of these various police officers are known, yet not one of them has ever come forward to offer any explanation for these very serious and glaring inconsistencies as to where the bodies at the scene were first found?
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Additionally, Sheila's hands and feet were NOT immaculate as stated in the original trial.
Oh but they were, one of the cops even wrapped them in plastic bags to preserve them.
No female with manicured nails ever loaded bullets into a magazine or a magazine in and out of a rifle quickly without sustaining staining and damage. The idea of it is totally preposterous.
How do you explain chipped nail polish and a picture of her feet ? MT could explain more about this if appropriate. I'm not sure how much can be disclosed.
Please explain how a model like Sheila could ever have done what she was supposed to have done and end up in a pristine forensic state? It just doesn't happen in the real world.
I read somewhere that Jeremy was in a big rush to have the bloodied carpets removed from the farmhouse. Why was this I wonder?
These points have been discussed over and over on this forum.
Was Sheila still modelling at this time? Don't think so.
The police burned the carpets.
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
Good clarification..... but had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.
How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......
So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?
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These points have been discussed over and over on this forum.
Was Sheila still modelling at this time? Don't think so.
The police burned the carpets.
Pure semantics. Sheila was model material and she kept herself in fine trim.
Yes, the police burned the carpets after having been pressurised by Jeremy to do so. Why was he so keen to have them removed?
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These points have been discussed over and over on this forum.
Was Sheila still modelling at this time? Don't think so.
The police burned the carpets.
Pure semantics. Sheila was model material and she kept herself in fine trim.
Yes, the police burned the carpets after having been pressurised by Jeremy to do so. Why was he so keen to have them removed?
I'm not convinced Jeremy put any pressure on the police to burn carpets - how do you substantiate that? As for Model Material......have you ever seen Kate Moss when she's not 'working'? Sheila had modelled professionally, but I think the tabloids exagerated the 'top' model
label.
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These points have been discussed over and over on this forum.
Was Sheila still modelling at this time? Don't think so.
The police burned the carpets.
Pure semantics. Sheila was model material and she kept herself in fine trim.
Yes, the police burned the carpets after having been pressurised by Jeremy to do so. Why was he so keen to have them removed?
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Well, I think you have got that wrong, because Ann Eaton complained to the police that she and the family really ought not to have to be left to clean up all the mess, and as a result the police got Jeremy to write out and sign an authorization - but Ann and the other relatives had the key to the house which was given to them by the police...
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.
How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......
So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?
1 body in kitchen, with confusing radio messages.
If, as the far fetched conspiracy theory people would have me believe, Sheila is lying in kitchen with gun shot wound, and one must presume the gun. The police would have checked for pulse, as she's described as a body. But she's not really dead, she's tricking them. Once the police have left the kitchen, she sprints upstairs with the gun the police left her, and shoots herself again. All this was done whilst plugging first wound, as she didn't want the blood to trail down her front........brilliant.
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1 body in kitchen, with confusing radio messages.
If, as the far fetched conspiracy theory people would have me believe, Sheila is lying in kitchen with gun shot wound, and one must presume the gun. The police would have checked for pulse, as she's described as a body. But she's not really dead, she's tricking them. Once the police have left the kitchen, she sprints upstairs with the gun the police left her, and shoots herself again. All this was done whilst plugging first wound, as she didn't want the blood to trail down her front........brilliant.
It doesn't really hold water does it Paul? More like a leaky pail.
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These points have been discussed over and over on this forum.
Was Sheila still modelling at this time? Don't think so.
The police burned the carpets.
Pure semantics. Sheila was model material and she kept herself in fine trim.
Yes, the police burned the carpets after having been pressurised by Jeremy to do so. Why was he so keen to have them removed?
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Well, I think you have got that wrong, because Ann Eaton complained to the police that she and the family really ought not to have to be left to clean up all the mess, and as a result the police got Jeremy to write out and sign an authorization - but Ann and the other relatives had the key to the house which was given to them by the police...
Oh I see, Ann had Jeremy request the police to remove them. It all makes sense now.
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1 body in kitchen, with confusing radio messages.
If, as the far fetched conspiracy theory people would have me believe, Sheila is lying in kitchen with gun shot wound, and one must presume the gun. The police would have checked for pulse, as she's described as a body. But she's not really dead, she's tricking them. Once the police have left the kitchen, she sprints upstairs with the gun the police left her, and shoots herself again. All this was done whilst plugging first wound, as she didn't want the blood to trail down her front........brilliant.
It doesn't really hold water does it Paul? More like a leaky pail.
I'd prefer an argument with Sheila as the killer, if both shots to herself are done in the bedroom.
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.
How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......
So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?
1 body in kitchen, with confusing radio messages.
If, as the far fetched conspiracy theory people would have me believe, Sheila is lying in kitchen with gun shot wound, and one must presume the gun. The police would have checked for pulse, as she's described as a body. But she's not really dead, she's tricking them. Once the police have left the kitchen, she sprints upstairs with the gun the police left her, and shoots herself again. All this was done whilst plugging first wound, as she didn't want the blood to trail down her front........brilliant.
She wasn't 'tricking' them. No doubt she would have been stunned/fainted with the shock. The pathologist said first shot wouldn't have killed her. The second shot upstairs did.
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1 body in kitchen, with confusing radio messages.
If, as the far fetched conspiracy theory people would have me believe, Sheila is lying in kitchen with gun shot wound, and one must presume the gun. The police would have checked for pulse, as she's described as a body. But she's not really dead, she's tricking them. Once the police have left the kitchen, she sprints upstairs with the gun the police left her, and shoots herself again. All this was done whilst plugging first wound, as she didn't want the blood to trail down her front........brilliant.
It doesn't really hold water does it Paul? More like a leaky pail.
I'd prefer an argument with Sheila as the killer, if both shots to herself are done in the bedroom.
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No-one is suggesting it all happened as fast as you have put it, it would all have happened over a 30 - 35 minute period...
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Not one of the members of the raid team has gone public to deny that two bodies were found or only one body found when they first got into the kitchen at whf...
Now isn't that suprising?
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Not one of the members of the raid team has gone public to deny that two bodies were found or only one body found when they first got into the kitchen at whf...
Now isn't that suprising?
But why would they?
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It is possible that the first officer to see Ralph saw thin legs and longish hair, flopped forwards, and presumed that it was a female body.
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Exactly, there was no mystery so no need to disclose anything.
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It is possible that the first officer to see Ralph saw thin legs and longish hair, flopped forwards, and presumed that it was a female body.
I think we can be assured that in all the confusion the police were running around like scared rabbits and Jeremy did little to avert their fears of being shot when he told them that there were several guns lying around in the farmhouse.
Remember Shona, it is remarkable that while all this was going on Jeremy was telling police about his new Porsche which he hoped to buy. Surreal wasn't it?
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It's also possible that, if JB hired a hitman, he could have left strategically placed, loaded guns for him to use. JB did load at least one gun, didn't he, and left it out?
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.
How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......
So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?
1 body in kitchen, with confusing radio messages.
If, as the far fetched conspiracy theory people would have me believe, Sheila is lying in kitchen with gun shot wound, and one must presume the gun. The police would have checked for pulse, as she's described as a body. But she's not really dead, she's tricking them. Once the police have left the kitchen, she sprints upstairs with the gun the police left her, and shoots herself again. All this was done whilst plugging first wound, as she didn't want the blood to trail down her front........brilliant.
Quite. It is inconceivable that the police would leave a woman's body on the floor holding a rifle and then all wander upstairs without checking it out first - especially when they were pre-warned that the shooter was a female matching the appearance of the gun-toting body!
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.
How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......
So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?
1 body in kitchen, with confusing radio messages.
If, as the far fetched conspiracy theory people would have me believe, Sheila is lying in kitchen with gun shot wound, and one must presume the gun. The police would have checked for pulse, as she's described as a body. But she's not really dead, she's tricking them. Once the police have left the kitchen, she sprints upstairs with the gun the police left her, and shoots herself again. All this was done whilst plugging first wound, as she didn't want the blood to trail down her front........brilliant.
Quite. It is inconceivable that the police would leave a woman's body on the floor holding a rifle and then all wander upstairs without checking it out first - especially when they were pre-warned that the shooter was a female matching the appearance of the gun-toting body!
--------------------------
Police found the body of a dead male and the body of a dead female upon entry into the kitchen, that's two bodies, not one...
Now linked to this, is the undisclosed officers report concerning the shooting incident downtairs in the kitchen...
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Now linked to this, is the undisclosed officers report concerning the shooting incident downtairs in the kitchen...
Where is the evidence of this undisclosed officers report Mike?
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Have you seen this report, Mike?
-
Now linked to this, is the undisclosed officers report concerning the shooting incident downtairs in the kitchen...
Where is the evidence of this undisclosed officers report Mike?
------------------
I'll find the link, or post it...
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Have you seen this report, Mike?
----------------
No, I have not seen the report, only a reference to it...
-
Now linked to this, is the undisclosed officers report concerning the shooting incident downtairs in the kitchen...
Where is the evidence of this undisclosed officers report Mike?
------------------
I'll find the link, or post it...
I hope you can - it would be extremely interesting...
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There is nothing to say Sheila was left lying, apparently dead, with a rifle across her chest and in the kitchen! As Mike says, the initial wound could have been been sustained quite a lot earlier - what is certain, is that this first shot did NOT kill her - it merely stunned her.
There has been a lot of debate around the original wound having clotted over. I don't know for sure whether there were in fact 2 bodies in the kitchen - all I can refer to is the police report of 2 bodies in the kitchen. There is absolutely no way 1 body could be mistaken for 2 bodies. The recording of the 2 bodies clearly states '1 male and 1 female'.
Also, don't forget that the police did NOT initially treat the scene as a murder scene, which is why there was such great contamination of evidence.
Can I just clariy this ridiculous theory of Jeremy talking about buying a porche - he did NOT say he was buying a porche he spoke about a sports car kit - don't forget, that at that point, he would not have known his family had been wiped out.
Jeremy was at that point in his life, young, naive, stupid, conceited, selfish, but all that does not make him guilty.
-
Now linked to this, is the undisclosed officers report concerning the shooting incident downtairs in the kitchen...
Where is the evidence of this undisclosed officers report Mike?
------------------
I'll find the link, or post it...
I hope you can - it would be extremely interesting...
---------------------------
here is the link and the reference to the officers report re shooting in kitchen (1612) that I have been speaking about:-
-
Now linked to this, is the undisclosed officers report concerning the shooting incident downtairs in the kitchen...
Where is the evidence of this undisclosed officers report Mike?
------------------
I'll find the link, or post it...
I hope you can - it would be extremely interesting...
---------------------------
here is the link and the reference to the officers report that I have been speaking about:-
Surely that could just be referring to the forensic analysis of the shooting of Nevill in the kitchen, Mike?
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So, why isn't there an officers report re the shooting in the main bedroom?
Also, another officers report about the shooting in the children's bedroom?
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So, why isn't there an officers report re the shooting in the main bedroom?
Also, another officers report about the shooting in the children's bedroom?
Surely there must be lots of reports about both of these?
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So, why isn't there an officers report re the shooting in the main bedroom?
Also, another officers report about the shooting in the children's bedroom?
Surely there must be lots of reports about both of these?
----------------
Where?
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Not one of the members of the raid team has gone public to deny that two bodies were found or only one body found when they first got into the kitchen at whf...
Now isn't that suprising?
But why would they?
They've been named. If they remain quiet, it could be interpreted as 'not refuting' that there were two bodies found upon entry. If they come out and refute it... they run the possible risk of eventually being exposed as liars. If they come out and confirm it, the whole damn thing comes crashing down like a house of cards. High stakes at play here? Prob better for them to see how the chips fall? But if the chips fall in Bamber's favour... and they haven't spoke out...
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If Sheila was found in the kitchen, possibly stunned by the first shot, would police officers have stepped over her and not remove her gun and make it safe?
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Possibly the wrong thread, but hey ho. JM was obviously a complex and devious character for one so young - a proven liar and thief, a bit of an "Alex Forrest", but she had a lot of inside information, and, under cross-examination, never once wavered. She ultimately had her whole life to lose - why didn't she crumble and admit that she was stitching JB up? I presume that "perjury" was explained to her.
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Was it "the norm" for JB to fully load a gun then leave it in an obvious place? Which is what he did. This doesn't make sense. There were small children in the house, so that would be crazy. If he was worried about rabbits, wouldn't he have taken the gun with him on his way home and potted some shots? If it was harvest time, rabbits wouldn't be a problem, anyway. Rabbits don't eat standing corn. Why did he leave a fully loaded gun in an accessible place?
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So, why isn't there an officers report re the shooting in the main bedroom?
Also, another officers report about the shooting in the children's bedroom?
Good point, Mike, +1 !
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And, much as I love choch, jackie and andrea, this is why I can't take this forum seriously any more. It's just a love-fest. I have put forward some serious points, but they have been ignored. All I see is "plus one for you" and we are getting no nearer to the truth. Stop bigging up JB, when it is quite feasible that he was responsible. Take your blinkers off.
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There is nothing to say Sheila was left lying, apparently dead, with a rifle across her chest and in the kitchen! As Mike says, the initial wound could have been been sustained quite a lot earlier - what is certain, is that this first shot did NOT kill her - it merely stunned her.
I wonder what you would be like with a .22 round fired into your neck. would you be groaning in agony or silent as a mouse? ;)
Can I just clariy this ridiculous theory of Jeremy talking about buying a porche - he did NOT say he was buying a porche he spoke about a sports car kit - don't forget, that at that point, he would not have known his family had been wiped out.
First of all it is not a theory, it is a fact. It matters little if it was a Porsche or a Porsche look-a-like kit car, the point is he had little empathy for his doomed family at that point.
Jeremy was at that point in his life, young, naive, stupid, conceited, selfish, but all that does not make him guilty.
It most certainly provides a motive though.
+1 Shona. I like the love fest-bit above.
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Was it "the norm" for JB to fully load a gun then leave it in an obvious place? Which is what he did. This doesn't make sense. There were small children in the house, so that would be crazy. If he was worried about rabbits, wouldn't he have taken the gun with him on his way home and potted some shots? If it was harvest time, rabbits wouldn't be a problem, anyway. Rabbits don't eat standing corn. Why did he leave a fully loaded gun in an accessible place?
Part of the plan I surmise.
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Totally agree Jerry. The Jury didn't believe it either.
If JB always shot rabbits, everytime he saw them out the kitchen window, a) he'd have spent all day doing it, and b) it was a bit bloody dangerous in a wall surrounded farm yard.
All without sights......
And then leaves a loaded rifle in the kitchen with two 6 year olds in the house.......
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And, much as I love choch, jackie and andrea, this is why I can't take this forum seriously any more. It's just a love-fest. I have put forward some serious points, but they have been ignored. All I see is "plus one for you" and we are getting no nearer to the truth. Stop bigging up JB, when it is quite feasible that he was responsible. Take your blinkers off.
+1 Shona xxx
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I used to wonder about the hitman theory,but definately would have thought that Jeremy would have had a good alibi.I will probably get slated for this,but I have never been totally convinced by Macdonalds or Collins alibis.With regard to Macdonald - his alibi was that he spent the night with a girlfriend.I know that I have got out of bed on many occasions,maybe drove myself to Tesco for some goodies,got back into bed a couple of hours later only to find hubby snoring away totally oblivious.He would innocently swear to anyone that Id been in bed all night.Collins disappeared just before the murders and returned just after.His alibi was a passport stamp to (I think)Greece?If anyone remembers,back in the 80's,you could actually buy a driving license if you knew the right people,so Im sure a passport stamp could just as easily have been aquired.And after the murders,he seemingly disapperared without trace!
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I used to wonder about the hitman theory,but definately would have thought that Jeremy would have had a good alibi.I will probably get slated for this,but I have never been totally convinced by Macdonalds or Collins alibis.With regard to Macdonald - his alibi was that he spent the night with a girlfriend.I know that I have got out of bed on many occasions,maybe drove myself to Tesco for some goodies,got back into bed a couple of hours later only to find hubby snoring away totally oblivious.He would innocently swear to anyone that Id been in bed all night.Collins disappeared just before the murders and returned just after.His alibi was a passport stamp to (I think)Greece?If anyone remembers,back in the 80's,you could actually buy a driving license if you knew the right people,so Im sure a passport stamp could just as easily have been aquired.And after the murders,he seemingly disapperared without trace!
... Collins alibi was vouchsafed by two women, daughter and mother, who spent night of shootings in a hotel, also verified by hotel register, and staff...
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Was it "the norm" for JB to fully load a gun then leave it in an obvious place? Which is what he did. This doesn't make sense. There were small children in the house, so that would be crazy. If he was worried about rabbits, wouldn't he have taken the gun with him on his way home and potted some shots? If it was harvest time, rabbits wouldn't be a problem, anyway. Rabbits don't eat standing corn. Why did he leave a fully loaded gun in an accessible place?
I certainly was,nt ignoring you Shona,Just found your post.
Jeremy could not take the gun away because asd explained by Ngb, it was an estate gun He would have been breaking the law if he took the gun with him. For sure Nevill would not allow that.
I agree rabbits don,t eat standing corn, but they are menace to farmers all year round.
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Also the rifle was seen by Jeaps upstairs, so there was no rifle to remove.
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Totally agree Jerry. The Jury didn't believe it either.
If JB always shot rabbits, everytime he saw them out the kitchen window, a) he'd have spent all day doing it, and b) it was a bit bloody dangerous in a wall surrounded farm yard.
All without sights......
And then leaves a loaded rifle in the kitchen with two 6 year olds in the house.......
... Please get facts right about gun being left loaded, or unloaded - Jeremy actually detached the ammunition magazine, and removed the bullet from the breach...
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Mike, thanks for putting me in my place regarding Collins alibi.I had never heard that before :)
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.
How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......
So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?
Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view, not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.
She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.
A number of questions / points for clarity.
Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?
Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).
If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.
Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -
Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)
Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.
The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.
These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.
You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
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Also the rifle was seen by Jeaps upstairs, so there was no rifle to remove.
... Shiela did not take rifle uptairs, after being found presumed dead in the kitchen by police upon entry - Bamber rifle was already upstairs leaning against bedroom window before Shiela got there. Police took possessaion of the other gun found next to Shiela's body downstairs, and this prevented her using the same gun to shoot herself with, for a second time downstairs. DS Davidson told the COLP investigators, that some red paint was found on the end of this guns barrel, and that this was why a paint sample (RC/1) was taken at the scene, on 8th August 1985.,
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Also the rifle was seen by Jeaps upstairs, so there was no rifle to remove.
... Shiela did not take rifle uptairs, after being found presumed dead in the kitchen by police upon entry - Bamber rifle was already upstairs leaning against bedroom window before Shiela got there. Police took possessaion of the other gun found next to Shiela's body downstairs, and this prevented her using the same gun to shoot herself with, for a second time downstairs. DS Davidson told the COLP investigators, that some red paint was found on the end of this guns barrel, and that this was why a paint sample (RC/1) was taken at the scene, on 8th August 1985.,
Mike - do you think the weapon downstairs was the Pargeter .22 Brno?
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So, why isn't there an officers report re the shooting in the main bedroom?
Also, another officers report about the shooting in the children's bedroom?
Good point, Mike, +1 !
I have to agree with Pugs' post that followed this.
How is this a "+1 good point" Keira?
Do you honestly believe that Mike is correct in suggesting that there aren't any officers reports regarding the shootings in the bedrooms?!
I keep hearing how many tens of thousands of papers there are in connection with this case. Surely at least one or two of them might be connected with the shootings in the bedrooms?!!
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So, why isn't there an officers report re the shooting in the main bedroom?
Also, another officers report about the shooting in the children's bedroom?
Good point, Mike, +1 !
I have to agree with Pugs' post that followed this.
How is this a "+1 good point" Keira?
Do you honestly believe that Mike is correct in suggesting that there aren't any officers reports regarding the shootings in the bedrooms?!
I keep hearing how many tens of thousands of papers there are in connection with this case. Surely at least one or two of them might be connected with the shootings in the bedrooms?!!
Add to what Mike says not one EP officer mentioned that SC body was stage managed to look like suicide !! Now some of the most experienced officer's witnessed SC in the position we have viewed her in , in the photo's , and if they cant see a gun as been placed on top of her they shouldn't be in the force !!
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Just going back to Brett Collins, wasn't he in Greece at the time of the shootings?
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.
How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......
So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?
Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view, not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.
She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.
A number of questions / points for clarity.
Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?
Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).
If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.
Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -
Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)
Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.
The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.
These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.
You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
TLW1966 - Have you seen the above post?
-
Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view, not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.
She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.
A number of questions / points for clarity.
Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?
Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).
If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.
Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -
Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)
Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.
The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.
These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.
You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?
...or did she do it on her hands and knees?
-
It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.
How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......
So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?
Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view, not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.
She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.
A number of questions / points for clarity.
Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?
Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).
If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.
Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -
Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)
Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.
The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.
These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.
You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
TLW1966 - Have you seen the above post?
So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?
...or did she do it on her hands and knees?
two possible answers.....
if she climbed the stairs herself......then...it seems the blood flow from the first wound had slowed and congealed and was not that great...quite plausible..
OR..
she was carried up the stairs by EP officers ...... the blood patterns around the wounds and on the nightdress support this very well.
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Now why would a policeman carry a bloodied person up some stairs. Now I have heard it all.
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It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.
So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??
How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made?
I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............
Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!
If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?
Given the above points -
'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'
If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.
...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?
My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.
How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......
So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?
Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view, not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.
She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.
A number of questions / points for clarity.
Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?
Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).
If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.
Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -
Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)
Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.
The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.
These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.
You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
TLW1966 - Have you seen the above post?
So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?
...or did she do it on her hands and knees?
two possible answers.....
if she climbed the stairs herself......then...it seems the blood flow from the first wound had slowed and congealed and was not that great...quite plausible..
OR..
she was carried up the stairs by EP officers ...... the blood patterns around the wounds and on the nightdress support this very well.
Smiffy
You have digressed in your OR option TLW1966 emphasises getting herself up the stairs and states -
'My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.'
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Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view, not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.
She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.
A number of questions / points for clarity.
Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?
Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).
If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.
Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -
Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)
Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.
The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.
These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.
You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?
...or did she do it on her hands and knees?
... The two shots were not fired in quick succession, or by the same weapon, or in the same part of the house - there is no way the police, or any of its experts can say with any degree of certainty, how long a delay there was, between both shots, when the evidence that the same gun fired both bullets (PV/20 and PV/19) is now in doubt, because somebody decided to swap over one of the bullets (PV/20) just so the ballistic expert Fletcher, could wrongly conclude that the same gun fired both bullets that killed her. The pathologist was led to believe that this was a one gun crime, after consulting with the ballistic expert and of course once bullet PV/20 had been swapped over, unless the police suddenly remember that they originally found shiela downstairs with a different gun near her body, than the one upstairs that was used to discharge the fatal bullet (PV/19). The fact is that there was a significant delay, between the two shots, and the position of bloodstaining on Shiela's nightdress could only have occurred if there was a significant delay between both shots, not if both shots were fired in quick succession - the official version, where Shiela is supposed to have shot herself twice in quick succession, or that someone shot her twice in quick succession by use of the same gun does not hold water, its nonsense...
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Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view, not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.
She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.
A number of questions / points for clarity.
Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?
Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).
If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.
Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -
Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)
Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.
The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.
These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.
You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?
...or did she do it on her hands and knees?
... The two shots were not fired in quick succession, or by the same weapon, or in the same part of the house - there is no way the police, or any of its experts can say with any degree of certainty, how long a delay there was, between both shots, when the evidence that the same gun fired both bullets (PV/20 and PV/19) is now in doubt, because somebody decided to swap over one of the bullets (PV/20) just so the ballistic expert Fletcher, could wrongly conclude that the same gun fired both bullets that killed her. The pathologist was led to believe that this was a one gun crime, after consulting with the ballistic expert and of course once bullet PV/20 had been swapped over, unless the police suddenly remember that they originally found shiela downstairs with a different gun near her body, than the one upstairs that was used to discharge the fatal bullet (PV/19). The fact is that there was a significant delay, between the two shots, and the position of bloodstaining on Shiela's nightdress could only have occurred if there was a significant delay between both shots, not if both shots were fired in quick succession - the official version, where Shiela is supposed to have shot herself twice in quick succession, or that someone shot her twice in quick succession by use of the same gun does not hold water, its nonsense...
Mike where in the scenario detailed which is quoted does it mention Sheila being shot twice in quick succession?
In fact quite the opposite is detailed if you care to read the posts quoted again.
The post was written in order to get a response from TLW1066 with respect to her stated theory which is not included in your post.
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Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view, not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.
She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.
A number of questions / points for clarity.
Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?
Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).
If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.
Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -
Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)
Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.
The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.
These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.
You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila. It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'
So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?
...or did she do it on her hands and knees?
... The two shots were not fired in quick succession, or by the same weapon, or in the same part of the house - there is no way the police, or any of its experts can say with any degree of certainty, how long a delay there was, between both shots, when the evidence that the same gun fired both bullets (PV/20 and PV/19) is now in doubt, because somebody decided to swap over one of the bullets (PV/20) just so the ballistic expert Fletcher, could wrongly conclude that the same gun fired both bullets that killed her. The pathologist was led to believe that this was a one gun crime, after consulting with the ballistic expert and of course once bullet PV/20 had been swapped over, unless the police suddenly remember that they originally found shiela downstairs with a different gun near her body, than the one upstairs that was used to discharge the fatal bullet (PV/19). The fact is that there was a significant delay, between the two shots, and the position of bloodstaining on Shiela's nightdress could only have occurred if there was a significant delay between both shots, not if both shots were fired in quick succession - the official version, where Shiela is supposed to have shot herself twice in quick succession, or that someone shot her twice in quick succession by use of the same gun does not hold water, its nonsense...
Mike where in the scenario detailed which is quoted does it mention Sheila being shot twice in quick succession?
In fact quite the opposite is detailed if you care to read the posts quoted again.
The post was written in order to get a response from TLW1066 with respect to her stated theory which is not included in your post.
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Its mentioned in one of the pathologists statements...
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It is possible that the first officer to see Ralph saw thin legs and longish hair, flopped forwards, and presumed that it was a female body.
I think we can be assured that in all the confusion the police were running around like scared rabbits and Jeremy did little to avert their fears of being shot when he told them that there were several guns lying around in the farmhouse.
Remember Shona, it is remarkable that while all this was going on Jeremy was telling police about his new Porsche which he hoped to buy. Surreal wasn't it?
Hi Jerry. Even those who believe JB was guilty know that the police officer with Jeremy was understandably trying to distract him with small talk. The officer may well have raised the subject of cars, prompting Jeremy to discuss the fact that he aimed to buy relatively cheap sports car kit. Perhaps you might benefit from a little more research into the details of the case?
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We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?
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We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?
I am not saying that this is 100% what happened, because of course I don´t know, but sometimes the mind escapes to safer, pleasenter places when the circumstances are unbearable.
It makes perfect sense to me.
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We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?
Jeremy was urging the police to go in, I understand. Jeremy had worked a 14 or 15 hour shift, he then had around 3 or 4 hours sleep before being woken by a phone call in the early hours. Once at WHF, he waited outside for - how many hours? - say, 5 or 6 hours? I would think any of us in that position would be exhausted and glad of a little distraction to help those long hours pass.
I accompanied my lovely daughter to hospital yesterday, where she had an endoscopy and biopsy. My poor babe, her specialist thinks she has either a very bad infection similar to TB or a chronic disease that, in some cases, can be quite serious. She will have her results in around 4-5 days.
That's on my mind most of the time, Shona, but I pushed it to the back of my mind for periods while I was in my office today. I've also pushed it into the background for a time while posting on here. The worry is never completely blocked, of course. My mind feels like a pressure cooker. Sometimes it overheats with worries, a valve blows somewere and I'm blubbing. Other times, something distracts me and the heat is turned down to a simmer for a time, yet one word is enough to have the pressure cooker overheating again. I've been so glad of the distraction offered by my job and the forum today. I don't believe we can blame Jeremy for responding to the officer's attempts to distract him, the need to switch off from stress is merely the way the mind works.
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We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?
I am not saying that this is 100% what happened, because of course I don´t know, but sometimes the mind escapes to safer, pleasenter places when the circumstances are unbearable.
It makes perfect sense to me.
Exactly, abs. +1
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We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?
I am not saying that this is 100% what happened, because of course I don´t know, but sometimes the mind escapes to safer, pleasenter places when the circumstances are unbearable.
It makes perfect sense to me.
I think the brain must have some sort of protective mechanism to protect itself from highly stressful circumstances, just as it uses denial mechanisms and shock to protect itself from the initial pain of grief. An overload on one electrical circuit causes it to divert impulses to another circuit? Brain impulses involve chemicals passing across synaptic gaps in nervous tissue, don't they? So an overload of impulses may mean chemical saturation, perhaps, to a point where further impulses are blocked from going down that route and, for a time, the impulses must divert elsewhere??
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It is possible that the first officer to see Ralph saw thin legs and longish hair, flopped forwards, and presumed that it was a female body.
I think we can be assured that in all the confusion the police were running around like scared rabbits and Jeremy did little to avert their fears of being shot when he told them that there were several guns lying around in the farmhouse.
Remember Shona, it is remarkable that while all this was going on Jeremy was telling police about his new Porsche which he hoped to buy. Surreal wasn't it?
Hi Jerry. Even those who believe JB was guilty know that the police officer with Jeremy was understandably trying to distract him with small talk. The officer may well have raised the subject of cars, prompting Jeremy to discuss the fact that he aimed to buy relatively cheap sports car kit. Perhaps you might benefit from a little more research into the details of the case?
Actually it was the police officer who remarked that Jeremy was more interested in discussing the purchase of a Porsche sports car than he was of events in the farmhouse. Maybe you should take some time to read the evidence instead of making rash unconstructive comments.
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We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?
He knew what the situation was in the farmhouse Shona, that is why he showed no real interest.
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Jerry,I think you will find that the actual truth is that Jeremy was actually in a state outside the farmhouse that night/morning.And it was because he was in a state that the police turned the converstion around to everyday things in an attempt to calm him down and distract him from events taking place.But I guess that for some people,it is easier to believe the worst in people!
It is a complete myth that Jeremy was unconcerned by the tragedy.RB and AE have stated themselves that JB kept breaking down in those early days.I agree it has been said that his attitude changed after only a few days,but it may have been,that amongst his grief,he realised that the restrictions his parents had placed on him were now gone because he then appeared to act like a child let loose in a candy store!Not overly unusual behaviour from someone raised in a fairly priveliged family.He was only 24 years old.Do you think that he should have remained indoors for a year,cutains closed,mourning his family? Some people are,just more resiliant than that.
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Choch, I haven't been on the forum for a few days - how is your daughter?
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Choch, I haven't been on the forum for a few days - how is your daughter?
Hi Shona,
We're waiting for her results, which we should have some time over the next few days. I just hope she's ok. Her specialist said that the problem could just be a really nasty lung infection, that's what I'm hoping and praying for. The other possibility has a name that doesn't sound very nice, so I daren't look it up or even say it at present. It's not - you know what - I can't say that word either at present. I'm very relieved it's not that.