Is it normal for a hitman to use his victims guns and ammo?

[clifford]

Was it "the norm" for JB to fully load a gun then leave it in an obvious place? Which is what he did. This doesn't make sense. There were small children in the house, so that would be crazy. If he was worried about rabbits, wouldn't he have taken the gun with him on his way home and potted some shots? If it was harvest time, rabbits wouldn't be a problem, anyway. Rabbits don't eat standing corn. Why did he leave a fully loaded gun in an accessible place?

I certainly was,nt ignoring you Shona,Just found your post.
Jeremy could not take the gun away because asd explained by Ngb, it was an estate gun He would have been breaking the law if he took the gun with him. For sure Nevill would not allow that.
I agree rabbits don,t eat standing corn, but they are menace to farmers all year round.

[clifford]

Also the rifle was seen by Jeaps upstairs, so there was no rifle to remove.

[mike tesko]

Totally agree Jerry. The Jury didn't believe it either.

If JB always shot rabbits, everytime he saw them out the kitchen window, a) he'd have spent all day doing it, and b) it was a bit bloody dangerous in a wall surrounded farm yard.

All without sights......

And then leaves a loaded rifle in the kitchen with two 6 year olds in the house.......

... Please get facts right about gun being left loaded, or unloaded - Jeremy actually detached the ammunition magazine, and removed the bullet from the breach...

[tyler]

Mike, thanks for putting me in my place regarding Collins alibi.I had never heard that before 

[curiousessex]

It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.

So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??

How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made? 

I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............


Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!

If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?

Given the above points -

'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'

If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?

It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.

...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?

My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'.  I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.

How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......

So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?

Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view,  not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.

She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.

A number of questions / points for clarity.

Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?

Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).

If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.

Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -

Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)

Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.

The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.


These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.

You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'


 

[mike tesko]

Also the rifle was seen by Jeaps upstairs, so there was no rifle to remove.

... Shiela did not take rifle uptairs, after being found presumed dead in the kitchen by police upon entry - Bamber rifle was already upstairs leaning against bedroom window before Shiela got there. Police took possessaion of the other gun found next to Shiela's body downstairs, and this prevented her using the same gun to shoot herself with, for a second time downstairs. DS Davidson told the COLP investigators, that some red paint was found on the end of this guns barrel, and that this was why a paint sample (RC/1) was taken at the scene, on 8th August 1985.,

[ngb1066]

Also the rifle was seen by Jeaps upstairs, so there was no rifle to remove.

... Shiela did not take rifle uptairs, after being found presumed dead in the kitchen by police upon entry - Bamber rifle was already upstairs leaning against bedroom window before Shiela got there. Police took possessaion of the other gun found next to Shiela's body downstairs, and this prevented her using the same gun to shoot herself with, for a second time downstairs. DS Davidson told the COLP investigators, that some red paint was found on the end of this guns barrel, and that this was why a paint sample (RC/1) was taken at the scene, on 8th August 1985.,

Mike - do you think the weapon downstairs was the Pargeter .22 Brno?

[bob]

So, why isn't there an officers report re the shooting in the main bedroom?

Also, another officers report about the shooting in the children's bedroom?

Good point, Mike, +1 !

I have to agree with Pugs' post that followed this.

How is this a "+1 good point" Keira?

Do you honestly believe that Mike is correct in suggesting that there aren't any officers reports regarding the shootings in the bedrooms?!

I keep hearing how many tens of thousands of papers there are in connection with this case. Surely at least one or two of them might be connected with the shootings in the bedrooms?!!

[jon]

So, why isn't there an officers report re the shooting in the main bedroom?

Also, another officers report about the shooting in the children's bedroom?

Good point, Mike, +1 !

I have to agree with Pugs' post that followed this.

How is this a "+1 good point" Keira?

Do you honestly believe that Mike is correct in suggesting that there aren't any officers reports regarding the shootings in the bedrooms?!

I keep hearing how many tens of thousands of papers there are in connection with this case. Surely at least one or two of them might be connected with the shootings in the bedrooms?!!

Add to what Mike says not one EP officer mentioned that SC body was stage managed to look like suicide !! Now some of the most experienced officer's witnessed SC in the position we have viewed her in , in the photo's , and if they cant see a gun as been placed on top of her they shouldn't be in the force !!

[andrea]

Just going back to Brett Collins, wasn't he in Greece at the time of the shootings?

[curiousessex]

It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.

So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??

How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made? 

I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............


Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!

If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?

Given the above points -

'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'

If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?

It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.

...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?

My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'.  I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.

How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......

So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?

Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view,  not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.

She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.

A number of questions / points for clarity.

Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?

Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).

If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.

Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -

Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)

Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.

The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.


These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.

You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

TLW1966 - Have you seen the above post?

[Jerry]

Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view,  not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.

She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.

A number of questions / points for clarity.

Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?

Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).

If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.

Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -

Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)

Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.

The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.


These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.

You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?

...or did she do it on her hands and knees?

[smiffy]

It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.

So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??

How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made? 

I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............


Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!

If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?

Given the above points -

'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'

If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?

It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.

...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?

My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'.  I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.

How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......

So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?

Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view,  not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.

She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.

A number of questions / points for clarity.

Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?

Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).

If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.

Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -

Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)

Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.

The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.


These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.

You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

TLW1966 - Have you seen the above post?

So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?

...or did she do it on her hands and knees?

two possible answers.....

if she climbed the stairs herself......then...it seems the blood flow from the first wound had slowed and congealed and was not that great...quite plausible..

OR..

she was carried up the stairs by EP officers ...... the blood patterns around the wounds and on the nightdress support this very well.

[Jerry]

Now why would a policeman carry a bloodied person up some stairs.  Now I have heard it all.

[curiousessex]

It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.

So, if Sheila died almost instantly, and Jeremy was the killer, who were the police talking to (while Jeremy was stood next to them)??

How do you explain Jeremy being in constant sight (and conversation) with the police outside WHF while reportings of movement within the house were made? 

I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............


Correct - sorry, was a typo - 2+1 = 3 anyway!

If Sheila died of a fatal last shot, how possible is it that she could bleed for so long (some 7 hours or so)?

Given the above points -

'It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

'I won't even start on reports of 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs............'

If you were to start on 2 bodies, 2 male 1 female, downstairs do you beleive Sheila had already shot herself at this point in time i.e non fatal injury or do you beleive Sheila was buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?

It was 1 male and 1 female downstairs.

...... and in your opinion had Sheila been shot at this time or was she buying time and effectively playing dead because she realised the Police were outside?

My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'.  I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.

How else can it be explained away that (a) a male and a female body found on entry, in the kitchen (b) then 1 male body in the kitchen and (c) 2 female bodies upstairs......

So what was it? 2 bodies or 1 body in the kitchen?

Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view,  not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.

She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.

A number of questions / points for clarity.

Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?

Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).

If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.

Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -

Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)

Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.

The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.


These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.

You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

TLW1966 - Have you seen the above post?

So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?

...or did she do it on her hands and knees?

two possible answers.....

if she climbed the stairs herself......then...it seems the blood flow from the first wound had slowed and congealed and was not that great...quite plausible..

OR..

she was carried up the stairs by EP officers ...... the blood patterns around the wounds and on the nightdress support this very well.

Smiffy

You have digressed in your OR option TLW1966 emphasises getting herself up the stairs and states -
'My view is that Sheila was unlikely to have been in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'.  I think she shot herself in the kitchen, was found stunned (hence the report of 2 dead bodies being found in the kitchen on entry), whereafter she was able to get herself back upstairs (through the kitchen stairs), and then kill herself with a final shot, upstairs.'