Is it normal for a hitman to use his victims guns and ammo?

[mike tesko]

Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view,  not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.

She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.

A number of questions / points for clarity.

Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?

Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).

If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.

Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -

Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)

Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.

The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.


These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.

You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?

...or did she do it on her hands and knees?

... The two shots were not fired in quick succession, or by the same weapon, or in the same part of the house - there is no way the police, or any of its experts can say with any degree of certainty, how long a delay there was, between both shots, when the evidence that the same gun fired both bullets (PV/20 and PV/19) is now in doubt, because somebody decided to swap over one of the bullets (PV/20) just so the ballistic expert Fletcher, could wrongly conclude that the same gun fired both bullets that killed her. The pathologist was led to believe that this was a one gun crime, after consulting with the ballistic expert and of course once bullet PV/20 had been swapped over, unless the police suddenly remember that they originally found shiela downstairs with a different gun near her body, than the one upstairs that was used to discharge the fatal bullet (PV/19). The fact is that there was a significant delay, between the two shots, and the position of bloodstaining on Shiela's nightdress could only have occurred if there was a significant delay between both shots, not if both shots were fired in quick succession - the official version, where Shiela is supposed to have shot herself twice in quick succession, or that someone shot her twice in quick succession by use of the same gun does not hold water, its nonsense...

[curiousessex]

Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view,  not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.

She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.

A number of questions / points for clarity.

Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?

Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).

If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.

Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -

Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)

Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.

The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.


These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.

You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?

...or did she do it on her hands and knees?

... The two shots were not fired in quick succession, or by the same weapon, or in the same part of the house - there is no way the police, or any of its experts can say with any degree of certainty, how long a delay there was, between both shots, when the evidence that the same gun fired both bullets (PV/20 and PV/19) is now in doubt, because somebody decided to swap over one of the bullets (PV/20) just so the ballistic expert Fletcher, could wrongly conclude that the same gun fired both bullets that killed her. The pathologist was led to believe that this was a one gun crime, after consulting with the ballistic expert and of course once bullet PV/20 had been swapped over, unless the police suddenly remember that they originally found shiela downstairs with a different gun near her body, than the one upstairs that was used to discharge the fatal bullet (PV/19). The fact is that there was a significant delay, between the two shots, and the position of bloodstaining on Shiela's nightdress could only have occurred if there was a significant delay between both shots, not if both shots were fired in quick succession - the official version, where Shiela is supposed to have shot herself twice in quick succession, or that someone shot her twice in quick succession by use of the same gun does not hold water, its nonsense...

Mike where in the scenario detailed which is quoted does it mention Sheila being shot twice in quick succession?

In fact quite the opposite is detailed if you care to read the posts quoted again.

The post was written in order to get a response from TLW1066 with respect to her stated theory which is not included in your post.

[mike tesko]

Lets assume you are correct and Sheila is lying stunned having shot herself in the kitchen. She recovers some time later, in your view,  not in any fit state of mind to 'play dead'. She takes herself upstairs with the gun and decides to end it all.

She shoots herself with a final shot which is instantaneously fatal and proceeds to bleed.

A number of questions / points for clarity.

Why not shoot yourself a second time in the kitchen....what has changed in order to decide to shoot yourself in a different location?

Having shot herself a first time she would bleed and most particularly be bleeding if she was still alive. By definition her heart would be beating, if she was still alive, maintaining her blood pressure in her veins and arteries. Under pressure blood would flow out of the wound that had been created by the bullet (Unless of course there is evidence to suggest it is possible to shot oneself in the neck without then bleeding).

If one is bleeding and then decides to return to an upright position in order to move from the kitchen to the bedroom by logic the flow of blood would be in the general direction of gravity i.e downwards / down her body.

Now interleaving with the potential black canvass shoes -

Before going upstairs Sheila puts the black canvass shoes on to help explain the clean feet and the chipped nail polish in the kitchen (if Sheila was wearing the black canvass shoes whilst she was fighting with Nevil then the chipped nail polish would surley remain inside the shoes unless of course she was fighting with Nevill wthout wearing the black canvass shoes)

Having got upstairs Sheila removes the black canvass shoes, assuming she was wearing them in the first place, and then shoots herself in the neck a second time. This time the shot is instantaneously fatal.

The loss of blood is then considerable from the fatal wound and she also starts bleeding from the first wound with the general flow of blood from both of the bullet wound points being in the same general directions. The direction of flow for the first wound is not down Sheila's body which would be consistent with her having been in the upright position after having shot herself a first time.


These are very important points to clarify because to prove Sheila guilty would prove Jeremy innocent.

You have confirmed 'It is generally accepted that the shooter was either Jeremy or Sheila.  It is also accepted the the last bullet would Sheila sustained killed her.'

So why didn't she bleed all the way down her neck and nightie while climbing the stairs?

...or did she do it on her hands and knees?

... The two shots were not fired in quick succession, or by the same weapon, or in the same part of the house - there is no way the police, or any of its experts can say with any degree of certainty, how long a delay there was, between both shots, when the evidence that the same gun fired both bullets (PV/20 and PV/19) is now in doubt, because somebody decided to swap over one of the bullets (PV/20) just so the ballistic expert Fletcher, could wrongly conclude that the same gun fired both bullets that killed her. The pathologist was led to believe that this was a one gun crime, after consulting with the ballistic expert and of course once bullet PV/20 had been swapped over, unless the police suddenly remember that they originally found shiela downstairs with a different gun near her body, than the one upstairs that was used to discharge the fatal bullet (PV/19). The fact is that there was a significant delay, between the two shots, and the position of bloodstaining on Shiela's nightdress could only have occurred if there was a significant delay between both shots, not if both shots were fired in quick succession - the official version, where Shiela is supposed to have shot herself twice in quick succession, or that someone shot her twice in quick succession by use of the same gun does not hold water, its nonsense...

Mike where in the scenario detailed which is quoted does it mention Sheila being shot twice in quick succession?

In fact quite the opposite is detailed if you care to read the posts quoted again.

The post was written in order to get a response from TLW1066 with respect to her stated theory which is not included in your post.

-------------------

Its mentioned in one of the pathologists statements...

[chochokeira]

It is possible that the first officer to see Ralph saw thin legs and longish hair, flopped forwards, and presumed that it was a female body.

I think we can be assured that in all the confusion the police were running around like scared rabbits and Jeremy did little to avert their fears of being shot when he told them that there were several guns lying around in the farmhouse.

Remember Shona, it is remarkable that while all this was going on Jeremy was telling police about his new Porsche which he hoped to buy.  Surreal wasn't it?

Hi Jerry. Even those who believe JB was guilty know that the police officer with Jeremy was understandably trying to distract him with small talk. The officer may well have raised the subject of cars, prompting Jeremy to discuss the fact that he aimed to buy relatively cheap sports car kit. Perhaps you might benefit from a little more research into the details of the case?

[shonapugs]

We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?

[Alias]

We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?

I am not saying that this is 100% what happened, because of course I don´t know, but sometimes the mind escapes to safer, pleasenter places when the circumstances are unbearable.
It makes perfect sense to me.

[chochokeira]

We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?

Jeremy was urging the police to go in, I understand. Jeremy had worked a 14 or 15 hour shift, he then had around 3 or 4 hours sleep before being woken by a phone call in the early hours. Once at WHF, he waited outside for - how many hours? - say, 5 or 6 hours? I would think any of us in that position would be exhausted and glad of a little distraction to help those long hours pass.

I accompanied my lovely daughter to hospital yesterday, where she had an endoscopy and biopsy. My poor babe, her specialist thinks she has either a very bad infection similar to TB or a chronic disease that, in some cases, can be quite serious. She will have her results in around 4-5 days.

That's on my mind most of the time, Shona, but I pushed it to the back of my mind for periods while I was in my office today. I've also pushed it into the background for a time while posting on here. The worry is never completely blocked, of course. My mind feels like a pressure cooker. Sometimes it overheats with worries, a valve blows somewere and I'm blubbing. Other times, something distracts me and the heat is turned down to a simmer for a time, yet one word is enough to have the pressure cooker overheating again. I've been so glad of the distraction offered by my job and the forum today. I don't believe we can blame Jeremy for responding to the officer's attempts to distract him, the need to switch off from stress is merely the way the mind works.

[chochokeira]

We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?

I am not saying that this is 100% what happened, because of course I don´t know, but sometimes the mind escapes to safer, pleasenter places when the circumstances are unbearable.
It makes perfect sense to me.

Exactly, abs. +1

[chochokeira]

We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?

I am not saying that this is 100% what happened, because of course I don´t know, but sometimes the mind escapes to safer, pleasenter places when the circumstances are unbearable.
It makes perfect sense to me.

I think the brain must have some sort of protective mechanism to protect itself from highly stressful circumstances, just as it uses denial mechanisms and shock to protect itself from the initial pain of grief. An overload on one electrical circuit causes it to divert impulses to another circuit? Brain impulses involve chemicals passing across synaptic gaps in nervous tissue, don't they? So an overload of impulses may mean chemical saturation, perhaps, to a point where further impulses are blocked from going down that route and, for a time, the impulses must divert elsewhere??

[Jerry]

It is possible that the first officer to see Ralph saw thin legs and longish hair, flopped forwards, and presumed that it was a female body.

I think we can be assured that in all the confusion the police were running around like scared rabbits and Jeremy did little to avert their fears of being shot when he told them that there were several guns lying around in the farmhouse.

Remember Shona, it is remarkable that while all this was going on Jeremy was telling police about his new Porsche which he hoped to buy.  Surreal wasn't it?

Hi Jerry. Even those who believe JB was guilty know that the police officer with Jeremy was understandably trying to distract him with small talk. The officer may well have raised the subject of cars, prompting Jeremy to discuss the fact that he aimed to buy relatively cheap sports car kit. Perhaps you might benefit from a little more research into the details of the case?

Actually it was the police officer who remarked that Jeremy was more interested in discussing the purchase of a Porsche sports car than he was of events in the farmhouse. Maybe you should take some time to read the evidence instead of making rash unconstructive comments.

[Jerry]

We've discussed this, reactions to trauma and loss. But it's difficult to imagine JB being distracted by a well-meaning copper while his entire family (and two small boys) were in such terrible danger. Wouldn't he just be concerned with getting in there, damage limitation?

He knew what the situation was in the farmhouse Shona, that is why he showed no real interest.

[tyler]

Jerry,I think you will find that the actual truth is that Jeremy was actually in a state outside the farmhouse that night/morning.And it was because he was in a state that the police turned the converstion around to everyday things in an attempt to calm him down and distract him from events taking place.But I guess that for some people,it is easier to believe the worst in people!
It is a complete myth that Jeremy was unconcerned by the tragedy.RB and AE have stated themselves that JB kept breaking down in those early days.I agree it has been said that his attitude changed after only a few days,but it may have been,that amongst  his grief,he realised that the restrictions his parents had placed on him were now gone because he then appeared to act like a child let loose in a candy store!Not overly unusual behaviour from someone raised in a fairly priveliged family.He was  only 24 years old.Do you think that he should have remained indoors for a year,cutains closed,mourning his family? Some people are,just more resiliant than that.

[shonapugs]

Choch, I haven't been on the forum for a few days - how is your daughter?

[chochokeira]

Choch, I haven't been on the forum for a few days - how is your daughter?

Hi Shona,

We're waiting for her results, which we should have some time over the next few days. I just hope she's ok. Her specialist said that the problem could just be a really nasty lung infection, that's what I'm hoping and praying for. The other possibility has a name that doesn't sound very nice, so I daren't look it up or even say it at present. It's not - you know what - I can't say that word either at present. I'm very relieved it's not that.