Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on March 10, 2017, 11:35:AM
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They saw it here, they saw it there, they saw the rifle every Blooming where!
At a box room window one moment, on Shelia's body the next, she was dead downstairs in the kitchen, then upstairs dead again, on the bed then on the bedroom floor, mum's body also on the bed, then moved to the door! A murder, a suicide, two bodies accounted for by 7.37am, a male and a female, Neville and June, or Neville and Sheila? June's death a suicide? Definitely not! So Sheila second body discovered as hers only death which could be a suicide! Yet, in grand scheme of things with Neville's body in kitchen, and June's body at bedroom door, Sheila's body would have been third body discovered, and based on information known by the control room by 7.45am was true, that police were dealing with two bodies at whf, a murder and a suicide, Sheila's body had to have been found before the body of June Bambers was found! If Neville Bambers body had been found first followed by the body of Junes, police would have been dealing with two bodies, a murder, and a murder!!!
By 8.10am, the other three bodies were found upstairs! Five dead in total!
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They saw it here, they saw it there, they saw the rifle every Blooming where!
At a box room window one moment, on Shelia's body the next, she was dead downstairs in the kitchen, then upstairs dead again, on the bed then on the bedroom floor, mum's body also on the bed, then moved to the door! A murder, a suicide, two bodies accounted for by 7.37am, a male and a female, Neville and June, or Neville and Sheila? June's death a suicide? Definitely not! So Sheila second body discovered as hers only death which could be a suicide! Yet, in grand scheme of things with Neville's body in kitchen, and June's body at bedroom door, Sheila's body would have been third body discovered, and based on information known by the control room by 7.45am was true, that police were dealing with two bodies at whf, a murder and a suicide, Sheila's body had to have been found before the body of June Bambers was found! If Neville Bambers body had been found first followed by the body of Junes, police would have been dealing with two bodies, a murder, and a murder!!!
By 8.10am, the other three bodies were found upstairs! Five dead in total!
'Oh, what a tangled web they weaved, when they first practiced to deceive'...
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They saw it here, they saw it there, they saw the rifle every Blooming where!
At a box room window one moment, on Shelia's body the next, she was dead downstairs in the kitchen, then upstairs dead again, on the bed then on the bedroom floor, mum's body also on the bed, then moved to the door! A murder, a suicide, two bodies accounted for by 7.37am, a male and a female, Neville and June, or Neville and Sheila? June's death a suicide? Definitely not! So Sheila second body discovered as hers only death which could be a suicide! Yet, in grand scheme of things with Neville's body in kitchen, and June's body at bedroom door, Sheila's body would have been third body discovered, and based on information known by the control room by 7.45am was true, that police were dealing with two bodies at whf, a murder and a suicide, Sheila's body had to have been found before the body of June Bambers was found! If Neville Bambers body had been found first followed by the body of Junes, police would have been dealing with two bodies, a murder, and a murder!!!
By 8.10am, the other three bodies were found upstairs! Five dead in total!
It also makes the rest of the argument over this issue look ridiculous the more you ponder it, Mike.
EP's claims about mistaking Neville for a female because of his hair flopping down. Did they also mistake him as having been murdered and committing suicide?
How could they have been reporting a suicide until they saw Sheila's body?
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It also makes the rest of the argument over this issue look ridiculous the more you ponder it, Mike.
EP's claims about mistaking Neville for a female because of his hair flopping down. Did they also mistake him as having been murdered and committing suicide?
How could they have been reporting a suicide until they saw Sheila's body?
I would love to see what you wrote after being bombarded with messages from another location.
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It also makes the rest of the argument over this issue look ridiculous the more you ponder it, Mike.
EP's claims about mistaking Neville for a female because of his hair flopping down. Did they also mistake him as having been murdered and committing suicide?
How could they have been reporting a suicide until they saw Sheila's body?
They couldn't report that one of the two bodies they had found was 'a suicide' until they came across Sheila's body!!!
All the other four victims had clearly been murdered!!
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I would love to see what you wrote after being bombarded with messages from another location.
What a pointless comparison. If it was my job to accurately record messages as I received them( or was bombarded with them, if you prefer) then I would do so.
Given your rather contrived argument on the farm/farmhouse question this is a peculiar argument for you to put forward here.
It's almost as if it is just a knee jerk reaction from you and not thought through.
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They couldn't report that one of the two bodies they had found was 'a suicide' until they came across Sheila's body!!!
All the other four victims had clearly been murdered!!
See DS Davidson's COLP I terview notes, he was contacted at his home address, by 'Linda' in the control room and requested to attend the office ASAP because police were dealing with an incident at whf involving two bodies (not three, not four, and not five bodies), he was told, a murder, and a suicide! One of these bodies was a male, and the other body was a female! Now, a murder, and, a suicide!!
The contents of a police radio log confirms the reporting of one dead male, and also confirms one dead female 7.38am, so there is independent evidence available regarding what 'Linda' told DS Davidson at around 7.45am, and vice versa, by reference to the timed police radio log entries timed at 7.37am, and 7.38am, two bodies, a male and a female, one male, one female, a murder, and a suicide - the other three remaining bodies yet undiscovered until 8.10am, and not a minute sooner!!
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They couldn't report that one of the two bodies they had found was 'a suicide' until they came across Sheila's body!!!
All the other four victims had clearly been murdered!!
Had this log been available to the jury, I find it difficult to believe the jury would have bought the rather weak arguments that we are now expected to believe.
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Yet according to Inspector Norman,that at 07.38,in his update,that 1 ( one ) dead male and 1 ( one ) dead female had been found on entry into the premises. This is clear and precise re.firearms team ?
Surely this is proof enough that either had shot each other ? And that one or the other of them had also been responsible for killing the other adult and the two children upstairs.
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What a pointless comparison. If it was my job to accurately record messages as I received them( or was bombarded with them, if you prefer) then I would do so.
Given your rather contrived argument on the farm/farmhouse question this is a peculiar argument for you to put forward here.
It's almost as if it is just a knee jerk reaction from you and not thought through.
No it's it's not peculiar or knee jerk at all - the log makes a CLEAR distinction between 'farm' and 'house' - at no point in those two sentences is 'farmhouse' mentioned.
They did do their job, they wrote messages as they received them. It was a confusing time, they didn't realise that a bunch of conspiracy theorists or people who hates the police would scrutinise their every word at a later date.
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No it's it's not peculiar or knee jerk at all - the log makes a CLEAR distinction between 'farm' and 'house' - at no point in those two sentences is 'farmhouse' mentioned.
They did do their job, they wrote messages as they received them. It was a confusing time, they didn't realise that a bunch of conspiracy theorists or people who hates the police would scrutinise their every word at a later date.
There is a clear distinction between male and female. Also between murder and suicide but you are willing to accept these as understandable mistakes.
If it was a mistake then what a lucky coincidence that EP were able to foresee that Sheila was dead and that she had committed suicide before even finding her.
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No it's it's not peculiar or knee jerk at all - the log makes a CLEAR distinction between 'farm' and 'house' - at no point in those two sentences is 'farmhouse' mentioned.
They did do their job, they wrote messages as they received them. It was a confusing time, they didn't realise that a bunch of conspiracy theorists or people who hates the police would scrutinise their every word at a later date.
It's not about a bunch of conspiracy theorists or people who hates the police would scrutinise their every word at a later date! It's about trying to establish the truth! How can the only rifle found to be present at a first floor box room window have been with Sheila Caffells body on the main bedroom floor, at one and the same time? More disturbingly, how can Sheila's body be even upstairs by 7.37am to 8.10am, in order for the gun at the box room window to be on her body in the main bedroom, if her body wasn't even upstairs by that stage!
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There is a clear distinction between male and female. Also between murder and suicide but you are willing to accept these as understandable mistakes.
If it was a mistake then what a lucky coincidence that EP were able to foresee that Sheila was dead and that she had committed suicide before even finding her.
Eh? But they didn't foresee anything, they didn't SEE things as is written, various people have written on the logs, so information was coming in from various sources. It wasn't until the TFG could clarify everything after the fact that a clear and accurate picture could be gleamed.
For what reason would the TFG and EP have for keeping a fact such as 'Sheila being initially alive' to themselves? Don't tell me the 'something happened' without having any idea what that 'something' could be, because even if the police shot Sheila (which I don't believe for one second), she was a hostile suspect and they couldn't be blamed if the siege ended that way.
There is a distinction between male and female and murder and suicide - however, in the light of what was going on at the time, it's reasonable to assume there would be confusion. Something like that doesn't happen every day and yes, mistakes were made - mistakes that have allowed Jeremy Bamber and those who support him to twist and manipulate them into a mass conspiracy that started when West answered the phone and is still perpetuated to this day.
When Bonnett made the distinction between farm and house, nothing much was happening EXCEPT Collins was 'IN CONVERSATION' with Jeremy (it says so in his statement) just before he 'CHALLENGED PERSONS INSIDE THE HOUSE' it's a distinction that fits with Collin's statement. The person referred to in Bonnett's log is Jeremy Bamber and so there is no proof that ANYONE was alive inside the HOUSE when Jeremy was outside - just anecdotal clap trap.
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It's not about a bunch of conspiracy theorists or people who hates the police would scrutinise their every word at a later date! It's about trying to establish the truth! How can the only rifle found to be present at a first floor box room window have been with Sheila Caffells body on the main bedroom floor, at one and the same time? More disturbingly, how can Sheila's body be even upstairs by 7.37am to 8.10am, in order for the gun at the box room window to be on her body in the main bedroom, if her body wasn't even upstairs by that stage!
If only that were the case.
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Eh? But they didn't foresee anything, they didn't SEE things as is written, various people have written on the logs, so information was coming in from various sources. It wasn't until the TFG could clarify everything after the fact that a clear and accurate picture could be gleamed.
For what reason would the TFG and EP have for keeping a fact such as 'Sheila being initially alive' to themselves? Don't tell me the 'something happened' without having any idea what that 'something' could be, because even if the police shot Sheila (which I don't believe for one second), she was a hostile suspect and they couldn't be blamed if the siege ended that way.
There is a distinction between male and female and murder and suicide - however, in the light of what was going on at the time, it's reasonable to assume there would be confusion. Something like that doesn't happen every day and yes, mistakes were made - mistakes that have allowed Jeremy Bamber and those who support him to twist and manipulate them into a mass conspiracy that started when West answered the phone and is still perpetuated to this day. How did the rifle get from its location and position at the first floor box room window, onto Sheila's body on the main bedroom floor in order for the TFG to discover her body there in possession of the said rifle if only three bodies were present upstairs by 8.10am? Who's was the missing fourth body from upstairs during this key period (7.37am - 8.10am)? The sighting of the rifle at the first floor box room window cannot be a mistake as you might like to put it! Neither can the fact that only three bodies were present upstairs by 8.10am be a mistake either! Cops can count and tell the correct time of day, it's their job to record details, facts and timing of events accurately!
When Bonnett made the distinction between farm and house, nothing much was happening EXCEPT Collins was 'IN CONVERSATION' with Jeremy (it says so in his statement) just before he 'CHALLENGED PERSONS INSIDE THE HOUSE' it's a distinction that fits with Collin's statement. The person referred to in Bonnett's log is Jeremy Bamber and so there is no proof that ANYONE was alive inside the HOUSE when Jeremy was outside - just anecdotal clap trap.
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If only that were the case.
It is!!
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Simple I don't believe the rifle moved anywhere.
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EP had kept the fact that Sheila had still been alive, from Jeremy,to save further upset once he'd known that the rest of the family had died.
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Why were these details, facts and information kept from the defence during the trial, preventing them from bringing these discrepancies to the attention of the jury!
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EP had kept the fact that Sheila had still been alive, from Jeremy,to save further upset once he'd known that the rest of the family had died.
Rubbish! What about after that? They days to explain what happened and Jeremy is hardly likely to be more upset that the police shote Sheila afer she had just murdered his parents. You really don't think things through.
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Simple I don't believe the rifle moved anywhere.
Neither did the jury who convicted Jeremy and the reason for this / that was because cops hid the truth about the real body count in the kitchen (2) and upstairs (3) as reported between 7.37am and 8.10am, and the fact that the only rifle present upstairs was seen to be resting against a first floor box room window by two police officers (Jeapes and Brown) before the TFG even got into the farmhouse, so how was it at all possible for the jury to gather that someone other than Jeremy (the defendant) had shot and killed Sheila, and staged her death scene on the main bedroom floor, if indeed she had not killed herself?
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Rubbish! What about after that? They days to explain what happened and Jeremy is hardly likely to be more upset that the police shote Sheila afer she had just murdered his parents. You really don't think things through.
There you go again with your " Rubbish !". ::) I've thought a lot through ! It's you who hasn't.
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Neither did the jury who convicted Jeremy and the reason for this / that was because cops hid the truth about the real body count in the kitchen (2) and upstairs (3) as reported between 7.37am and 8.10am, and the fact that the only rifle present upstairs was seen to be resting against a first floor box room window by two police officers (Jeapes and Brown) before the TFG even got into the farmhouse, so how was it at all possible for the jury to gather that someone other than Jeremy (the defendant) had shot and killed Sheila, and staged her death scene on the main bedroom floor, if indeed she had not killed herself?
The extent of this deception simply does not end there with the simple movement of the rifle from the box room window onto Sheila's body on the bedroom floor! Since the rifle ends up being photographed resting against the main bedroom window before it gets photographed in the possession of Sheila Caffells body! Additionally, DC Clark and Stan Jones claimed to have seen the said rifle laying between the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell laid on top of the bed!!
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The extent of this deception simply does not end there with the simple movement of the rifle from the box room window onto Sheila's body on the bedroom floor! Since the rifle ends up being photographed resting against the main bedroom window before it gets photographed in the possession of Sheila Caffells body! Additionally, DC Clark and Stan Jones claimed to have seen the said rifle laying between the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell laid on top of the bed!!
Information which one or other, or both relayed to Ann Eaton once they greeted her at Jeremy's cottage in Head Street, Goldhanger, that morning!!
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If someone staged Sheila's death scene on the main bedroom floor with use of the rifle in her possession then it could not have been Jeremy Bamber who did that!
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If someone staged Sheila's death scene on the main bedroom floor with use of the rifle in her possession then it could not have been Jeremy Bamber who did that!
Introducement of the silencer, with its blood and paint features, does nothing to improve the case for Jeremy having been responsible for killing and staging his sister's body with the rifle upstairs on the main bedroom floor! Since, with the rifle seen at the first floor box room window (before 7.30am, by Jeapes and Brown) how could police conclude that prior to the rifle being placed on Sheila's body the person who had shot and killed her had removed the silencer from the guns barrel and taken it to another part of the house to conceal it in a so called gun cupboard in the den downstairs! You see, the only way cops could come up with such an explanation was if they removed the silencer themselves from the barrel of the gun after they brought it to Sheila's displaced body laid out on the main bedroom floor! They had to remove it for two reasons or more! (1) the overall length of the rifle from the flat end of the attached silencer to the trigger of the so configured weapon was too long in distance to enable the said rifle to have fired the lower entry wound bullet as per 'self harm' (2) Whilst rifle was being gauged on Sheila's body with regard to the only bullet wound on her neck by that stage, and whilst the silencer was still attached, a second bullet penetrated her neck higher up beneath her chin and effectively killed her outright, there and then (3) the distance between the muzzle end of the silencer fitted to the barrel of the rifle to the trigger was equal in distance and thus accommodated the use of the rifle with silencer as the gun which had fired that second shot (4) Cops were then faced with a victim who had been shot twice by two different weapons (5) they decided to remove the silencer and stage Sheila's death with the rifle minus it's silencer so that they could claim that she had shot herself twice in the neck involving recoil...
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Introducement of the silencer, with its blood and paint features, does nothing to improve the case for Jeremy having been responsible for killing and staging his sister's body with the rifle upstairs on the main bedroom floor! Since, with the rifle seen at the first floor box room window (before 7.30am, by Jeapes and Brown) how could police conclude that prior to the rifle being placed on Sheila's body the person who had shot and killed her had removed the silencer from the guns barrel and taken it to another part of the house to conceal it in a so called gun cupboard in the den downstairs! You see, the only way cops could come up with such an explanation was if they removed the silencer themselves from the barrel of the gun after they brought it to Sheila's displaced body laid out on the main bedroom floor! They had to remove it for two reasons or more! (1) the overall length of the rifle from the flat end of the attached silencer to the trigger of the so configured weapon was too long in distance to enable the said rifle to have fired the lower entry wound bullet as per 'self harm' (2) Whilst rifle was being gauged on Sheila's body with regard to the only bullet wound on her neck by that stage, and whilst the silencer was still attached, a second bullet penetrated her neck higher up beneath her chin and effectively killed her outright, there and then (3) the distance between the muzzle end of the silencer fitted to the barrel of the rifle to the trigger was equal in distance and thus accommodated the use of the rifle with silencer as the gun which had fired that second shot (4) Cops were then faced with a victim who had been shot twice by two different weapons (5) they decided to remove the silencer and stage Sheila's death with the rifle minus it's silencer so that they could claim that she had shot herself twice in the neck involving recoil...
They hoped that would be the end of the matter, with the five deaths passing through the Coroner's Court system unscathed...
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Stan Jones returned to the scene from Jeremy's cottage late that morning and took possession of the said silencer (SBJ/1)! He subsequently replaced it in the gun cupboard on evening of 9th August 1985, whilst he and DCI Jones handed the keys to whf back to Ann Eaton, and showed her around the farmhouse pointing out to her where the bodies had been found!
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It must have been puzzling much later on for Ann Eaton to be shown into the main bedroom and it being pointed out to her where the bodies of Sheila and June Bamber had been found on top of the bed, only to discover later that the two bodies had been photographed on different parts of the bedroom floor! Additionally, where she had been told by Clark and Jones that the rifle had been found between the two bodies upon the bed, she would much later discover that the said rifle had been photographed on top of Sheila's body on the bedroom floor! Finally, Clark and Jones had told her that a Bible had been found on the top of Sheila's chest, but later on this Bible was photographed with its edge resting against her upper right arm!!!
Oh, what a to do....
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Stan Jones returned to the scene from Jeremy's cottage late that morning and took possession of the said silencer (SBJ/1)! He subsequently replaced it in the gun cupboard on evening of 9th August 1985, whilst he and DCI Jones handed the keys to whf back to Ann Eaton, and showed her around the farmhouse pointing out to her where the bodies had been found!
Ya know, Mike, if you'd have given each of these despised -by you- characters, ONE story, and stuck with it, it might have been more believable. It's like, you're so determined that they should be guilty of something, that you appear to throw in numerous suggestions in the hope that one will stick.
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There you go again with your " Rubbish !". ::) I've thought a lot through ! It's you who hasn't.
It is rubbish - I thought you liked plain speaking? Sorry Lookout but the notion they kept shooting Sheila to themselves because they didn't want to upset Jeremy - is rubbish, it doesn't make any sense.
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It is rubbish - I thought you liked plain speaking? Sorry Lookout but the notion they kept shooting Sheila to themselves because they didn't want to upset Jeremy - is rubbish, it doesn't make any sense.
The only conspiracy I believe in was the blood and paint in sound moderator.
This to me is sim ply a case of the police being forced to look into the theories the family were determined to become true .
There isn't much else is there really. Julies testimony didn't count. AE lied, Boutflour lied.
The circumstantial evidence has been made to fit and the prosecution told a better story on the day.
In my opinion based on current evidence it is an unsafe co victim. Find the clothes he was wearing, blood on the bike, the wetsuit (lol) blood in his house anything that we couldn't argue about.
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The only conspiracy I believe in was the blood and paint in sound moderator.
This to me is sim ply a case of the police being forced to look into the theories the family were determined to become true .
There isn't much else is there really. Julies testimony didn't count. AE lied, Boutflour lied.
The circumstantial evidence has been made to fit and the prosecution told a better story on the day.
In my opinion based on current evidence it is an unsafe co victim. Find the clothes he was wearing, blood on the bike, the wetsuit (lol) blood in his house anything that we couldn't argue about.
Notsure, it hardly matters that he actually had the best part of a month to dispose of any incriminating evidence. He could have discarded MUCH of it in the Aga and could have showered at the farm before he left. We don't know that he used the bike -the distance being perfectly walkable. He had time, once he was home to throw any bloodied clothes into the washing machine. The police didn't visit him until the next day and as he wasn't a suspect they wouldn't have given a thought to any clothes on airing horses -if he hadn't put them into an airing cupboard- why would he not have taken off his work clothes and washed them through. Incidentally, the bike was examined.
It's only your opinion that everyone but Jeremy is a liar. Jeremy gave the police the story he wanted them to swallow and through lack of any other family member that night, there was no one to contradict what he said. He set the scene for them and once in the farmhouse found exactly what he'd suggested they'd find.
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The only conspiracy I believe in was the blood and paint in sound moderator.
This to me is sim ply a case of the police being forced to look into the theories the family were determined to become true .
There isn't much else is there really. Julies testimony didn't count. AE lied, Boutflour lied.
The circumstantial evidence has been made to fit and the prosecution told a better story on the day.
In my opinion based on current evidence it is an unsafe co victim. Find the clothes he was wearing, blood on the bike, the wetsuit (lol) blood in his house anything that we couldn't argue about.
Julies testimony did matter but I do agree that the silencer evidence was extremely dodgy!
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Julies testimony did matter but I do agree that the silencer evidence was extremely dodgy!
So what else was left after leaving out the silencer ? Julie's dodgy testimony which fell flat after the " hitman " lie ? I didn't hear her shouting from the rooftops that " he'd done it ? " Instead,when she entered the mortuary,she'd asked a dead Sheila what had happened ? Shouldn't she have known ?
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So what else was left after leaving out the silencer ? Julie's dodgy testimony which fell flat after the " hitman " lie ? I didn't hear her shouting from the rooftops that " he'd done it ? " Instead,when she entered the mortuary,she'd asked a dead Sheila what had happened ? Shouldn't she have known ?
Jeremy told the hitman lie.
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Jeremy told the hitman lie.
It was dismissed as a lie !
Whereas she used to ignore his puns,except for this time it suited her to repeat what he'd said ::)
Read the 32 pages of her notes and I'll defy you to find anywhere where she blamed Jeremy for the murders,not even a hint. ( that's if you can read her appalling writing ! )
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It was dismissed as a lie !
Whereas she used to ignore his puns,except for this time it suited her to repeat what he'd said ::)
Read the 32 pages of her notes and I'll defy you to find anywhere where she blamed Jeremy for the murders,not even a hint. ( that's if you can read her appalling writing ! )
Sure, she must have laughed her socks off. Such a HUGE joke,wasn't it? Hearing your boyfriend planning to kill his family. She COULDN'T exactly say he did it. She wasn't there...............but I wonder how frequently he phoned her at silly o'clock to tell her that everything is going well.
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It was dismissed as a lie !
Whereas she used to ignore his puns,except for this time it suited her to repeat what he'd said ::)
Read the 32 pages of her notes and I'll defy you to find anywhere where she blamed Jeremy for the murders,not even a hint. ( that's if you can read her appalling writing ! )
Because Jeremy told her he hired a hitman - of course it was a LIE because HE killed them.
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Sure, she must have laughed her socks off. Such a HUGE joke,wasn't it? Hearing your boyfriend planning to kill his family. She COULDN'T exactly say he did it. She wasn't there...............but I wonder how frequently he phoned her at silly o'clock to tell her that everything is going well.
He didn't...
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Because Jeremy told her he hired a hitman - of course it was a LIE because HE killed them.
How utterly pathetic ::) Soooooooo repetetive-------sooooooooo boring.
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How utterly pathetic ::) Soooooooo repetetive-------sooooooooo boring.
Perhaps, now, you realize how we feel every time you make pathetic excuses for poor, dear Jeremy.
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How utterly pathetic ::) Soooooooo repetetive-------sooooooooo boring.
And so TRUE!
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Because Jeremy told her he hired a hitman - of course it was a LIE because HE killed them.
Exactly! Where indeed - the rumour that Matthew McDonald was a 'mercenary' made him the perfect target for gossip mongers and I believe this is where JM got her hitman story from! I have to wonder also if the seed was planted by the family and it was embroidered into the elaborate tapestry of hearsay and conjecture we have today!
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
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Thanks for the memory. :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
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Thanks for the memory. :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
Yes, I was once as deluded as you and the F*CK wit above
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Posting things I once said when I thought he was innocent is just stupid and a first class example of someone attacking the poster and NOT the post. Only an idiot would post such examples and only a bigger idiot wouldn't realise that OBVIOUSLY changing your mind includes a reevaluation of what you thought before. It's easy to be brain washed by some of the stuff posted on here, especially when it is repeated in the media 'Crimes That Shook Britain' was the catalyst for my thinking he might be innocent which was further fueled by things posted here. After writing to Jeremy himself, I started to have doubts and looked into some of the claims on CTSB and stuff posted here in more detail - it didn't take long before most of it could be explained and already had been - twists by the conspiracy theorist were easily dismantled. I still hold that some of the documentaries that have appeared on TV are not well researched and they get basic stuff wrong - but then people who have posted here for YEARS also get basic stuff wrong.
So for any numb nut who wishes to post my old posts - fill your boots - one in particular has used them for the basis of his/her own theories so I guess that makes them look even more of an idiot!
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
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Posting things I once said when I thought he was innocent is just stupid and a first class example of someone attacking the poster and NOT the post. Only an idiot would post such examples and only a bigger idiot wouldn't realise that OBVIOUSLY changing your mind includes a reevaluation of what you thought before. It's easy to be brain washed by some of the stuff posted on here, especially when it is repeated in the media 'Crimes That Shook Britain' was the catalyst for my thinking he might be innocent which was further fueled by things posted here. After writing to Jeremy himself, I started to have doubts and looked into some of the claims on CTSB and stuff posted here in more detail - it didn't take long before most of it could be explained and already had been - twists by the conspiracy theorist were easily dismantled. I still hold that some of the documentaries that have appeared on TV are not well researched and they get basic stuff wrong - but then people who have posted here for YEARS also get basic stuff wrong.
So for any numb nut who wishes to post my old posts - fill your boots - one in particular has used them for the basis of his/her own theories so I guess that makes them look even more of an idiot!
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
Not only is he posting old posts here, Caroline, he MAY have posted them on another forum. He's certainly been slagging us off on another forum.....................I thought it was against forum rules for members to do such.
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Posting things I once said when I thought he was innocent is just stupid and a first class example of someone attacking the poster and NOT the post.
Your former post dealt with your latter post rather well.
"ad hominem attacks can be non-fallacious; i.e., if the attack on the character of the person is directly tackling the argument"
Only an idiot would post such examples and only a bigger idiot wouldn't realise that OBVIOUSLY changing your mind includes a reevaluation of what you thought before.
Tu quoque can indeed be a form of ad hominem fallacy. However it can be non-fallacious i.e the person fails to give a reasonable explanation as to why they changed their mind.
It's easy to be brain washed by some of the stuff posted on here
So far you've only succeeded in brainwashing JaneJ. If its so easy why do you only have one sucker?
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(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol_ricky_gervais.gif)
It's no secret Caroline & Jane J were passionate Bamber supporters. Bamber was writing to Caroline while Jane J didn't like Julie's court outfit.
They both changed stance at the same time. Caroline due to Bamber not responding to a last harvest question. Jane J changing stance straight after Caroline and always refusing to give a reason.
Quoting old posts from them just highlights that anything that supposedly supported Bamber people no longer believe.
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It's no secret Caroline & Jane J were passionate Bamber supporters. Bamber was writing to Caroline while Jane J didn't like Julie's court outfit.
They both changed stance at the same time. Caroline due to Bamber not responding to a last harvest question. Jane J changing stance straight after Caroline and always refusing to give a reason.
Quoting old posts from them just highlights that anything that supposedly supported Bamber people no longer believe.
Nothing to do with the last harvest question Adam, I didn't ask him about that - you're thinking of the wallet - however, that is only one aspect.
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Not only is he posting old posts here, Caroline, he MAY have posted them on another forum. He's certainly been slagging us off on another forum.....................I thought it was against forum rules for members to do such.
He can please himself, most people know he's a troll except for his two NZ fans on the IA joke board. I don't know why he keeps trying to goad, I have him blocked so can't see the bollocks he posts anyway. Maybe he'll share his little report about the palm print or maybe I will!
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Nothing to do with the last harvest question Adam, I didn't ask him about that - you're thinking of the wallet - however, that is only one aspect.
Are you saying that Bamber knew about the wallet at WHF. Or he knew what was inside. Or both ?
Surely Bamber could just say the police told him about this.
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He can please himself, most people know he's a troll except for his two NZ fans on the IA joke board. I don't know why he keeps trying to goad, I have him blocked so can't see the bollocks he posts anyway. Maybe he'll share his little report about the palm print or maybe I will!
It will be interesting to see how he manages to get away with passing you're work off as his own. Be even more interesting to see what he does with it if you decide to get in first. There'll be no disputing who did the research, then.
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Are you saying that Bamber knew about the wallet at WHF. Or he knew what was inside. Or both ?
Surely Bamber could just say the police told him about this.
Yes, the day he went back to WHF on the invitation of AE it's the first thing he went to find after looking around the rooms with Ann. He knew there was £400.00 - £500.00 hundred in the wallet and was annoyed that he couldm't find it. The police couldn't have told him, they didn't have it, AE and RWB removed it from the house and gave it to the solicitor. I asked him how he knew what was inside. After avoiding the question for about a year he finally said that he didn't remember what my question was but the answer was 'no' or 'I didn't' (he said this also the first time I asked him), then went on to say (further in the letter), that he hadn't thought the wallet was important and so he didn't answer. Two different reasons in one letter, he also said his dad usually carried around £100.00 - £200.00. So it was unusual for him to have £400.00 - £500.00 and yet Jeremy knew what was in it.
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Yes, the day he went back to WHF on the invitation of AE it's the first thing he went to find after looking around the rooms with Ann. He knew there was £400.00 - £500.00 hundred in the wallet and was annoyed that he couldm't find it. The police couldn't have told him, they didn't have it, AE and RWB removed it from the house and gave it to the solicitor. I asked him how he knew what was inside. After avoiding the question for about a year he finally said that he didn't remember what my question was but the answer was 'no' or 'I didn't' (he said this also the first time I asked him), then went on to say (further in the letter), that he hadn't thought the wallet was important and so he didn't answer. Two different reasons in one letter, he also said his dad usually carried around £100.00 - £200.00. So it was unusual for him to have £400.00 - £500.00 and yet Jeremy knew what was in it.
Where does it say that Jeremy knew his dad had £400 in the wallet? Couldn't Nevill just have told him sometime on that last day with an explanation that he had some bills to pay?
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Yes, the day he went back to WHF on the invitation of AE it's the first thing he went to find after looking around the rooms with Ann. He knew there was £400.00 - £500.00 hundred in the wallet and was annoyed that he couldm't find it. The police couldn't have told him, they didn't have it, AE and RWB removed it from the house and gave it to the solicitor. I asked him how he knew what was inside. After avoiding the question for about a year he finally said that he didn't remember what my question was but the answer was 'no' or 'I didn't' (he said this also the first time I asked him), then went on to say (further in the letter), that he hadn't thought the wallet was important and so he didn't answer. Two different reasons in one letter, he also said his dad usually carried around £100.00 - £200.00. So it was unusual for him to have £400.00 - £500.00 and yet Jeremy knew what was in it.
Where does it say he knew there was £400 - £500 in the wallet. Did he say it to AE ?
He would have looked for the wallet regardless of guilt or innocence if he knew Nevill always carried £100 - £200.
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Yes, the day he went back to WHF on the invitation of AE it's the first thing he went to find after looking around the rooms with Ann. He knew there was £400.00 - £500.00 hundred in the wallet and was annoyed that he couldm't find it. The police couldn't have told him, they didn't have it, AE and RWB removed it from the house and gave it to the solicitor. I asked him how he knew what was inside. After avoiding the question for about a year he finally said that he didn't remember what my question was but the answer was 'no' or 'I didn't' (he said this also the first time I asked him), then went on to say (further in the letter), that he hadn't thought the wallet was important and so he didn't answer. Two different reasons in one letter, he also said his dad usually carried around £100.00 - £200.00. So it was unusual for him to have £400.00 - £500.00 and yet Jeremy knew what was in it.
That's rather different to what you originally told the forum.
Just to let you all know that I received a letter from Jeremy today and he said that he mentioned 'no amount' when asking about the wallet. He said he doesn't remember the incident that well but that he is sure he didn't mention an amount. I am happy that he has now answered and accept his reply. It's now a case of Jeremy's word against AE's
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There is probably some truths and half truths from both parties.
Bamber hunting for money from Nevill so soon after the massacre is incriminating. Bamber admits hunting for the wallet.
Bamber hunting for the wallet highlights that he knew Nevill kept a lot of money in there. Which is not surprising as people often keep lots of money in wallets.
AE will be correct in that the wallet had £400 - £500 in as she handed it in.
The main question is whether Bamber knew Nevill had £400 - £500 in the wallet. After committing the massacre, he may well check Nevill's wallet. But knew he could not take it back with him on the night.
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There is probably some truths and half truths from both parties.
Bamber hunting for money from Nevill so soon after the massacre is incriminating. Bamber admits hunting for the wallet.
Bamber hunting for the wallet highlights that he knew Nevill kept a lot of money in there. Which is not surprising as people often keep lots of money in wallets.
AE will be correct in that the wallet had £400 - £500 in as she handed it in.
The main question is whether Bamber knew Nevill had £400 - £500 in the wallet. After committing the massacre, he may well check Nevill's wallet. But knew he could not take it back with him on the night.
Its nothing but a side track.
If I had my way. Anyone claiming to repeat what Jeremy has told them in writing should be obliged to post a scanned image of the letter. Its in the interest of establishing the truth.
Caroline's claims to what is allegedly written in these letters has changed. Not only that but she refuses to post them. To my mind it's deserving of suspicion and distrust.
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Its nothing but a side track.
If I had my way. Anyone claiming to repeat what Jeremy has told them in writing should be obliged to post a scanned image of the letter. Its in the interest of establishing the truth.
Caroline's claims to what is allegedly written in these letters has changed. Not only that but she refuses to post them. To my mind it's deserving of suspicion and distrust.
It's not necessarily a sidetrack. It's actually rather an ingenious discovery by Caroline. Of course if you believe the relatives have lied all the way through you won't accept the explanation come what may. But Jeremy has contradicted himself many times about where he put the gun, whether he fired any shots to scare the rabbits, whether he thought Nevill was injured when he rang, not to mention the downright lies about Sheila having indulged in target practice, being on the "hard stuff", the fostering saga &c.
It's why he was happy to wag his tongue on 7 August 1985 yet so reticent when arrested on 10 September.
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It's not necessarily a sidetrack. It's actually rather an ingenious discovery by Caroline.
The wallet and the alleged amount of money is in the 1991 COLP interview's. As I have already pointed out the claims have now changed and no actual letter has actually been produced.
But Jeremy has contradicted himself many times about where he put the gun, whether he fired any shots to scare the rabbits, whether he thought Nevill was injured when he rang, not to mention the downright lies about Sheila having indulged in target practice, being on the "hard stuff", the fostering saga &c.
Jeremy was honest about the shooting in Scotland. He was honest about the entering via the window on the 16th of September.
The "fostering saga" was genuine. Its in the statements of Colins mother. And various other statements.
As for the "Hard Stuff"
The jury had heard the medical evidence, principally that of Dr Ferguson. Between August 1983 and her death Sheila had suffered a psychotic illness requiring inpatient treatment. She had disturbances in her thinking process. She had severe mood disturbances. She had used cannabis and cocaine.
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The wallet and the alleged amount of money is in the 1991 COLP interview's. As I have already pointed out the claims have now changed and no actual letter has actually been produced.
Jeremy was honest about the shooting in Scotland. He was honest about the entering via the window on the 16th of September.
The "fostering saga" was genuine. Its in the statements of Colins mother. And various other statements.
As for the "Hard Stuff"
The jury had heard the medical evidence, principally that of Dr Ferguson. Between August 1983 and her death Sheila had suffered a psychotic illness requiring inpatient treatment. She had disturbances in her thinking process. She had severe mood disturbances. She had used cannabis and cocaine.
He had to admit the 16th September ingress as he was being monitored at the time. Cynics would say he was covering his tracks forensically after suspicion moved away from Sheila and onto him. Colin's mother was not present on the Tuesday night. I have no reason to doubt Julie's story that he initiated the discussion to try and sow discord between the participants. I'm also quite sure in my mind that June was attempting to reassure Sheila by that stage and would not have threatened her with removal of her boys.
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Its nothing but a side track.
If I had my way. Anyone claiming to repeat what Jeremy has told them in writing should be obliged to post a scanned image of the letter. Its in the interest of establishing the truth.
Caroline's claims to what is allegedly written in these letters has changed. Not only that but she refuses to post them. To my mind it's deserving of suspicion and distrust.
What has changed David? OK, I'll post them tomorrow at some point then you can apologise. I don't lie David, I'll leave that to you and the likes of you! What I said hasn't changed - I have just exposed more than I did before.
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I don't see why Bamber would say to AE he knew the wallet had £400 - £500 in. Unless he made a big mistake.
Although he has admitted he was looking for it. Which is very callous so soon after the massacre. And shows he knew it had a substantial amount of money.
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It will be good to see the section of AE's WS which states Bamber knew Nevill's wallet had £400 - £500 in.
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It's not necessarily a sidetrack. It's actually rather an ingenious discovery by Caroline. Of course if you believe the relatives have lied all the way through you won't accept the explanation come what may. But Jeremy has contradicted himself many times about where he put the gun, whether he fired any shots to scare the rabbits, whether he thought Nevill was injured when he rang, not to mention the downright lies about Sheila having indulged in target practice, being on the "hard stuff", the fostering saga &c.
It's why he was happy to wag his tongue on 7 August 1985 yet so reticent when arrested on 10 September.
Don't worry Steve, I can back up what I have said but even the truth won't be good enough for the likes of David because it's something alien. I will reiterate - I don't lie. No matter what is posted here and what proof goes with it - the hard line supporters will never take on it on-board. I guess they are hoping to be part of a bigger picture if he's ever released - pipe dreams!
If David wants the truth to be posted, I should also add that it was Jeremy who told me the blood stain on the bible is a palm print - he knows it was Jeremy who told me but has kept that to himself because not only is it suspicious that Jeremy's knows this but it also lessens the impact of his little report.
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Don't worry Steve, I can back up what I have said but even the truth won't be good enough for the likes of David because it's something alien. I will reiterate - I don't lie. No matter what is posted here and what proof goes with it - the hard line supporters will never take on it on-board. I guess they are hoping to be part of a bigger picture if he's ever released - pipe dreams!
If David wants the truth to be posted, I should also add that it was Jeremy who told me the blood stain on the bible is a palm print - he knows it was Jeremy who told me but has kept that to himself because not only is it suspicious that Jeremy's knows this but it also lessens the impact of his little report.
It's chilling and terribly sad to recall the events of that morning and the nonentity who perpetrated them.
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Its nothing but a side track.
If I had my way. Anyone claiming to repeat what Jeremy has told them in writing should be obliged to post a scanned image of the letter. Its in the interest of establishing the truth.
Caroline's claims to what is allegedly written in these letters has changed. Not only that but she refuses to post them. To my mind it's deserving of suspicion and distrust.
"Establishing the truth", eh? Curious words from someone who's refused to reveal "in the interest of establishing the truth" what his doodlings are. Might that be because they based on someone else's research? I wonder where is the TRUTH in that. Could it possibly be that he sees himself as being lauded -loudly and publicly- as being responsible for freeing Jeremy Bamber? Could it be that he sees himself as coining it in from books and film rights? Might it be that such a person would be extremely concerned that, if the REAL truth emerges, he'll find himself covered in something FAR less sweet smelling than glory.
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I knew about the blood on the Bible from a palm in 2012,did anyone else ?? I don't think so,apart from Mike. After that it suddenly became an " important " issue ::)
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I knew about the blood on the Bible from a palm in 2012,did anyone else ?? I don't think so,apart from Mike. After that it suddenly became an " important " issue ::)
No you didn't - this is an out right lie Lookout.
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No you didn't - this is an out right lie Lookout.
It's no lie I'm afraid. How would you know if it was a lie or not anyway ??
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It's no lie I'm afraid. How would you know if it was a lie or not anyway ??
Yes it is Lookout, you knew nothing palm print until I posted about it. It's shocking the lengths you will go to and I really don't trust anything you say. You have shown your true colours of late.
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It's no lie I'm afraid. How would you know if it was a lie or not anyway ??
I think the answer to that, is that you'd go to almost ANY lengths to maintain the belief that Jeremy is innocent. The thing is shouting it loudly and telling untruths won't make him so.
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Yes it is Lookout, you knew nothing palm print until I posted about it. It's shocking the lengths you will go to and I really don't trust anything you say. You have shown your true colours of late.
The month of June 11th,2012. Don't dare to tell ME of my true-colours. Look to your own !
Perhaps it's ME who's finding out who the back-stabbers are---------as if I didn't already know !!
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The month of June 11th,2012. Don't dare to tell ME of my true-colours. Look to your own !
Perhaps it's ME who's finding out who the back-stabbers are---------as if I didn't already know !!
Other than at one time suggesting it might be June's hand print, I don't recall that you ever joined in discussion about it. By the way, were you in correspondence with Jeremy back in 2012?
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Other than at one time suggesting it might be June's hand print, I don't recall that you ever joined in discussion about it. By the way, were you in correspondence with Jeremy back in 2012?
So I DID mention the handprint------------which gave a lead to further discussion. In politics it's called gerrymandering or manipulating to an unfair advantage,particularly the opposition.
Yes,I wrote to Jeremy in 2012.
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No you didn't - this is an out right lie Lookout.
So like I said,I NEVER tell lies !! Because the truth ALWAYS wins.
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So I DID mention the handprint------------which gave a lead to further discussion. In politics it's called gerrymandering or manipulating to an unfair advantage,particularly the opposition.
Yes,I wrote to Jeremy in 2012.
Seems to me, Lookout, that whilst unwilling, through lack of trust, to share any information you may have, you think nothing of asking those you don't trust to provide you with information. I don't believe you instigated further discussion at all. All you did was try to deflect from where the debate was going. Politics really isn't your thing. You open your mouth and say it without giving it thought and it comes out as BLUSTER.
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Seems to me, Lookout, that whilst unwilling, through lack of trust, to share any information you may have, you think nothing of asking those you don't trust to provide you with information. I don't believe you instigated further discussion at all. All you did was try to deflect from where the debate was going. Politics really isn't your thing. You open your mouth and say it without giving it thought and it comes out as BLUSTER.
Make as many excuses that you think fit,it WON'T alter what I KNOW to be right !
I will never knowingly deflect from one subject to another,only when I know that whatever I'm writing falls on deaf ears more often than not------which isn't my fault as few here are interested in the truth.
Because I was discussing June's small palm on the Bible,nobody wanted to know---------but it then set a precedence for a discussion by someone else,which,whoop-de-doo,was far more interesting.
It didn't go unnoticed,no matter what anyone thinks of me !!
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So like I said,I NEVER tell lies !! Because the truth ALWAYS wins.
And you NEVER win - that says it all really and you did NOT know about the hand print until I mentioned it!
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And you NEVER win - that says it all really and you did NOT know about the hand print until I mentioned it!
Sorry to burst your bubble but it was before then--------in 2012.
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Erm,who's talking about " winning " here ? It's a murder enquiry for God's sake,not a competition !!
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Erm,who's talking about " winning " here ? It's a murder enquiry for God's sake,not a competition !!
You're the one who tries to do the point scoring, Lookout. When you can't you throw something in to deflect the conversation.
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Sorry to burst your bubble but it was before then--------in 2012.
Crap! And you know it!
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You're the one who tries to do the point scoring, Lookout. When you can't you throw something in to deflect the conversation.
No,NOT point-scoring at all. A means of proving that I wasn't lying, of which I object to !
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Crap! And you know it!
I've had nothing but nastiness from you since I put you right. What's your problem ? Conscience ??
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I've had nothing but nastiness from you since I put you right. What's your problem ? Conscience ??
No, I just like honesty Lookout, I don't have a problem with you defending Jeremy BUT when you have to bend the truth, then I just lose all respect. You knew all about the palm print did you? Well, as you're fond of dragging up old posts, here is one where you congratulated me for introducing the notion of the print - earlier on in the same thread (even though you apparently knew all about the palm print on the bible), you referred to it as "a big smudge"
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4295.msg175755.html#msg175755
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4295.msg175809.html#msg175809
Just be honest!
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I've had nothing but nastiness from you since I put you right. What's your problem ? Conscience ??
Do you not see that you can be as/more nasty that everyone else put together? Whoever you are when you're not here, you become like one of those screaming virago's who can't believe their child is capable of wrong doing when it's plain as the nose on your face -to others- that the child is guilty.
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No, I just like honesty Lookout, I don't have a problem with you defending Jeremy BUT when you have to bend the truth, then I just lose all respect. You knew all about the palm print did you? Well, as you're fond of dragging up old posts, here is one where you congratulated me for introducing the notion of the print - earlier on in the same thread (even though you apparently knew all about the palm print on the bible), you referred to it as "a big smudge"
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4295.msg175755.html#msg175755
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4295.msg175809.html#msg175809
Just be honest!
Now how about where I mentioned it in June 2012 and nobody followed it up ? Perhaps it was yourself 12 months later ??
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Now how about where I mentioned it in June 2012 and nobody followed it up ? Perhaps it was yourself 12 months later ??
Where?
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The earliest record I know of. That mentions bloody prints on the bible. Is a letter from Jeremy to Mike in 2009.
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As I'd mentioned once before,I've thought that the blood on the Bible belonged to June,as did the Bible itself and also the contents. The " Love one another " was June's and probably to do with a Bible class.
Sadly,it may have been put there to remind her of the class that she hadn't attended when she'd been expected.
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The rifle at the window argument, has been a long standing bone of contention - in the early days of debate those from the other camp made such a big issue about the rifle not being against the main bedroom window as contended by me, but rather they argued, the said rifle was at another window (box room window), a window identifiable by its location on the red brick part of the farmhouse building!!
I pursued the argument that the said rifle was resting against the main bedroom window, having regards to the crime scene photograph (23) which was taken prior to other photographs (25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33) that were taken afterwards with the said rifle on Sheila's body!!
So, I argued on this basis, and the opposition said, 'No', the rifle was at a box room window!!
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The rifle at the window argument, has been a long standing bone of contention - in the early days of debate those from the other camp made such a big issue about the rifle not being against the main bedroom window as contended by me, but rather they argued, the said rifle was at another window (box room window), a window identifiable by its location on the red brick part of the farmhouse building!!
I pursued the argument that the said rifle was resting against the main bedroom window, having regards to the crime scene photograph (23) which was taken prior to other photographs (25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33) that were taken afterwards with the said rifle on Sheila's body!!
So, I argued on this basis, and the opposition said, 'No', the rifle was at a box room window!!
Well, proceeding on the basis that the said rifle had been at the first floor box room window, when seen by WPC Jeapes, and PC Brown, it turns out that the said rifle had to travel a further distance to end up on Sheila's body, then say if it had travelled from the main bedroom window onto her body on the bedroom floor! So, even when I have conceded that they might well be right about the window at which Jeapes and Brown saw the rifle, it literally means that the rifle in question had to have been brought much further so that by the time police entered the main bedroom for the very first time, they saw Sheila's body with the rifle in her possession laid out on the bedroom floor, when the rifle in question minutes beforehand had been resting against a first floor window! So how did the rifle at the box room window disappear from the box room window and manage to end up with Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, and her body be the second body found in the grand scheme of things, described or known about as a 'suicide'?
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We know, not because we speculate about it, but because the police radio message logs confirm it that there were only three bodies found upstairs by 8.10am!
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We know, not because we speculate about it, but because the police radio message logs confirm it that there were only three bodies found upstairs by 8.10am!
The opposition don't like it, because they know that this causes them a very significant problem!
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If there were only three bodies upstairs in total by 8.10am, how does Sheila's body in possession of the said rifle that was previously resting at the bedroom window come into play?
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If there were only three bodies upstairs in total by 8.10am, how does Sheila's body in possession of the said rifle that was previously resting at the bedroom window come into play?
More disturbingly, who's was the second body (a female) found downstairs by 7.37am, 7.38am and prior to 7.45am?
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Its recorded in police records, five dead in total by 8.10am - two bodies already found in kitchen upon entry, one dead male, one dead female, a murder, and a suicide, and a further three bodies upstairs!!!
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They don't like having to face the truth!
They pretend that they can't count, and make up excuses, any excuses for these rogue cops to have made such fundamental mistakes in basic arithmetic!
Two plus three equals five!!!
For those amongst us who cannot read, here's another way of presenting the now extablished facts as of 8.10am - 2 + 3 = 5...
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First two (2) bodies found, a male, and a female, not a male mistaken for a female (7.37am, 7.38am, 7.45am)! One of these two bodies described as a murder (Male), the other described as a female! You only have to stop and consider these basic details to realise that what they were talking about and referring to, was not a single body that somebody mistook as a female, because the only male victim in this tragedy died from eight shots and his death could in no way ever be contemplated as having been a suicide!!
Neville Bamber a suicide, who got shot eight times - Naaah...
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The second body referred to in the police message logs (7.37am, 7.38am, 7.45am), was a female who had committed suicide!!
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The second body referred to in the police message logs (7.37am, 7.38am, 7.45am), was a female who had committed suicide!!
So, what we do is, we look at how many females died in this tragedy?
We know that there were two!
June Bamber, and Sheila caffell!!
June Bamber had been shot seven (7) times, and Sheila twice (2)...
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So, what we do is, we look at how many females died in this tragedy?
We know that there were two!
June Bamber, and Sheila caffell!!
June Bamber had been shot seven (7) times, and Sheila twice (2)...
No guessing then, which of these two bodies was reportedly found in second position after entry was gained to the kitchen - not June Bamber, then because her death could never be entertained in a month of sundays as a suicide!
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No guessing then, which of these two bodies was reportedly found in second position after entry was gained to the kitchen - not June Bamber, then because her death could never be entertained in a month of sundays as a suicide!
Second body found in kitchen upon entry had to be, was Sheila Caffell!
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Mike, if EP very cleverly framed JB for these murders how many of them do you think were involved? Could they all keep their mouths shout for over 30 years?
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Contents of police message log timed at 8.10am 'a further three bodies, Making five dead in total'!
Sheila's body could not have been included in that total of three, otherwise the first two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen would have been reported and spoken about as a murder, and a murder, not a murder, and a suicide!!
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Second body found in kitchen upon entry had to be, was Sheila Caffell!
Except Rozga never saw a second body. Neither did he hear tell of a second body. He heard via radio control that "A" body had been discovered. There was certainly a lot of blood which he was warned not to walk through but no sign of another body NOR did he mention that it looked as if there had been one which got up and walked.
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Contents of police message log timed at 8.10am 'a further three bodies, Making five dead in total'!
Sheila's body could not have been included in that total of three, otherwise the first two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen would have been reported and spoken about as a murder, and a murder, not a murder, and a suicide!!
By this stage (8.10am) the rifle was still resting against the first floor box room window!
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Except Rozga never saw a second body. Neither did he hear tell of a second body. He heard via radio control that "A" body had been discovered. There was certainly a lot of blood which he was warned not to walk through but no sign of another body NOR did he mention that it looked as if there had been one which got up and walked.
It was not in Rozga's interests to mention a second body, nobody asked him about it, so he never said there wasn't one!
Oh, look a edited, typed composite witness statement created by another in PC Rozga's name!!!
And, although the composite statement wasn't created until December 1985, onward, look at the date the composite statement was dated beforehand! Why couldn't Rozga make his own handwritten statement? How do you know that vital parts were not edited out like in Colin Caffells and Jeremy Bambers witness statements?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1620.0;attach=7650;image
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It was not in Rozga's interests to mention a second body, nobody asked him about it, so he never said there wasn't one!
Oh, look a edited, typed composite witness statement created by another in PC Rozga's name!!!
And, although the composite statement wasn't created until December 1985, onward, look at the date the composite statement was dated beforehand! Why couldn't Rozga make his own handwritten statement? How do you know that vital parts were not edited out like in Colin Caffells and Jeremy Bambers witness statements?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1620.0;attach=7650;image
For all anybody knows, Rozga could have mentioned the second body in the original handwritten version of his statement!
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It was not in Rozga's interests to mention a second body, nobody asked him about it, so he never said there wasn't one!
Oh, look a edited, typed composite witness statement created by another in PC Rozga's name!!!
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1620.0;attach=7650;image
Without seeing the original, how can I -OR you- ascertain that what you're showing here is in any way different? We only have your word for it.
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For all anybody knows, Rozga could have mentioned the second body in the original handwritten version of his statement!
OR NOT. It sounds as if you're trying to create a composite to fit with what you're telling us.
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All that we know, is that the only rifle found upstairs was resting against the first floor box room window just prior to the TFG commencing its approach to enter the farmhouse door at around or by 7.30am! We have two police officers, Jeapes and Brown, both seeing it, yet oddly nobody says what became of it after the TFG entered the farmhouse! Well, something must have happened to it because it found its way from that window into an adjoining bedroom and onto the body of Sheila Caffell!!!
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Without seeing the original, how can I -OR you- ascertain that what you're showing here is in any way different? We only have your word for it.
At the moment, yeah, but why aren't these scoundrels disclosing the original unedited handwritten versions of it?
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OR NOT. It sounds as if you're trying to create a composite to fit with what you're telling us.
I call for the original, let the contents of it be the judge of what the truth was / is...
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Two bodies downstairs in kitchen from 7.37am to 8.10am, with other three bodies upstairs!!
Who's was the second body found?
Why a female body of course!!
Who's female body?
A murder, and a suicide!!
Certainly not June Bambers body that's for sure!
Second body found had to be a reference to the finding of Sheila downstairs in the kitchen!
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The rifle at first floor box room window could not have been with Sheila's body downstairs in the kitchen (7.37am) at the time Jeapes and Brown identified it to be resting against the first floor box room window! Neither could it have been resting on top of Sheila's body on the main bedroom floor at one and the same time! This lone rifle could not have been here, there, and everywhere!
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At the moment, yeah, but why aren't these scoundrels disclosing the original unedited handwritten versions of it?
But in order to make it fit with your claims, there HAS to be an unedited version, and there's the possibility of a stored original...................but if there is, just supposing it doesn't fit with your claims? Thus far, there's no back up for anything you've said other than it can all be verified by what the hidden originals say. If those originals no longer are in existence OR are never revealed, we'll never know, however IF they should ever see the light of day, there's a huge chance they'll reveal that Jeremy's conviction was entirely safe.
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The rifle at first floor box room window could not have been with Sheila's body downstairs in the kitchen (7.37am) at the time Jeapes and Brown identified it to be resting against the first floor box room window! Neither could it have been resting on top of Sheila's body on the main bedroom floor at one and the same time! This lone rifle could not have been here, there, and everywhere!
Logic dictates what I am saying as being true!
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In order for the scenario as portrayed by the position of the five bodies as shown in PC Birds edited Crime Scene photographs, cops would have been dealing with a murder, and a murder, followed by a further three bodies upstairs, a suicide and two murders!!
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The earliest record I know of. That mentions bloody prints on the bible. Is a letter from Jeremy to Mike in 2009.
From Jeremy! Not from Lookout and nothing about a palm print!
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In order for the scenario as portrayed by the position of the five bodies as shown in PC Birds edited Crime Scene photographs, cops would have been dealing with a murder, and a murder, followed by a further three bodies upstairs, a suicide and two murders!!
Yet, there is absolutely no evidence that this was what cops were dealing with up to and inclusive of 8.10am - and the rifle was still resting alongside the first floor box room window!!!
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As I'd mentioned once before,I've thought that the blood on the Bible belonged to June,as did the Bible itself and also the contents. The " Love one another " was June's and probably to do with a Bible class.
Sadly,it may have been put there to remind her of the class that she hadn't attended when she'd been expected.
What's that got to do with the hand print?
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We know that the rifle at the first floor box room window must have been removed by somebody after the TFG entered the farmhouse! It was the only gaddammit rifle upstairs so it was important to know at which stage it disappeared from its early vantage point!
Somebody removed it!!
Who?
When?
Why?
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We know that the rifle at the first floor box room window must have been removed by somebody after the TFG entered the farmhouse! It was the only gaddammit rifle upstairs so it was important to know at which stage it disappeared from its early vantage point!
Somebody removed it!!
Who?
When?
Why?
Jeapes and Brown appear to have been the two police officers who recognised this rifle at the box room window so I would think that it was part of their remit to keep a trianed eye upon it! Yet, they remain silent upon the matter?
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Lets face it, the cops are surrounding a farmhouse, they have been there for two to three hours already, when suddenly a rifle appears on view at a first floor box room window! A gun by Jove!! This coincides with the TFG making its approach to enter the farmhouse to try to bring the siege to an end! They believed that Sheila had the gun, the gun suddenly is shown to be at the box room window! Who placed it there? TFG enter farmhouse, report find of two bodies (not one) a male, and a female, a murder and a suicide! No reports of the rifle having gone missing from the box room window in the mean time! Neville Bambers death a clear murder, could not be entertained as a possible suicide! So, clearly two different bodies in kitchen and a rifle upstairs at a box room window!!
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The death of Sheila is not officially reported by the police surgeon, Dr Craig until 8.44am, he describing her body as being on the far side of the bed, with what appeared to be a solitary wound upon her neck!
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The death of Sheila is not officially reported by the police surgeon, Dr Craig until 8.44am, he describing her body as being on the far side of the bed, with what appeared to be a solitary wound upon her neck!
A rifle lay alongside her body by this stage (8.44am) so it seems reasonable to assume that by 8.44am the rifle had found its way for the box room window, onto her body, or at least alongside it!
Yet by 9 O'clock, when PS Adams visited the bedroom and viewed Sheila's body he states that he had no recollection of there being a gun with her body at that stage!
What, if anything had happened to the rifle in between the police surgeon Craig pronouncing Sheila's death at 8.44am, and PS Adams viewing the body 16 minutes afterwards? Well, cops removed it and placed it against the main bedroom window (23) where PC Bird subsequently photographed it!
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But in order to make it fit with your claims, there HAS to be an unedited version, and there's the possibility of a stored original...................but if there is, just supposing it doesn't fit with your claims? Thus far, there's no back up for anything you've said other than it can all be verified by what the hidden originals say. If those originals no longer are in existence OR are never revealed, we'll never know, however IF they should ever see the light of day, there's a huge chance they'll reveal that Jeremy's conviction was entirely safe.
Incorrect, otherwise there was no reason to edit them and create these typed composite versions!
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Mike, if EP very cleverly framed JB for these murders how many of them do you think were involved? Could they all keep their mouths shout for over 30 years?
The TFG certainly, and senior officers who attended were all to a greater or lesser degree involved in the cover up surrounding the death of Sheila Caffell, and SOCO...
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Incorrect, otherwise there was no reason to edit them and create these typed composite versions!
But we only have your word for it -without any proof- that the original was edited and composited in a way injurious to Jeremy's case.
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The earliest record I know of. That mentions bloody prints on the bible. Is a letter from Jeremy to Mike in 2009.
From August 2005: "a bloodied mirrored palmprinted image was in the bible"
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From August 2005: "a bloodied mirrored palmprinted image was in the bible"
From 1066 - "There was a bloodied palm print on the bible" - Doesn't anyone like to back up what they say? Where dose it state that?
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That was on the courttv forum, which is probably defunct now. Would you like me to check the sleuthingforjustice forum?
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That's probably where I first saw it and I think it was Mike's post.
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That's probably where I first saw it and I think it was Mike's post.
No Lookout, you said YOU posted about it in June 2012!
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That was on the courttv forum, which is probably defunct now. Would you like me to check the sleuthingforjustice forum?
If you like - however, the point was that I introduced it 'here'. I have no doubt that Jeremy must have mentioned it to others - strange that it's not on the OS anywhere though.
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No Lookout, you said YOU posted about it in June 2012!
I know I did and I also said I'd READ ( not posted ) about the hand palm in 2005 !
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I know I did and I also said I'd READ ( not posted ) about the hand palm in 2005 !
Really? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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If you like . . .
The earliest references in the sleuthingforjustice forum to the handprint (and consideration of which of two Bibles contained it) were made by Mike Tesko in October 2008, not very long after he joined that website.
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The earliest references in the sleuthingforjustice forum to the handprint (and consideration of which of two Bibles contained it) were made by Mike Tesko in October 2008, not very long after he joined that website.
Thanks Reader, can you provide a link?
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There were two Bibles seized by police, one originally marked DRH/33, and the other marked DRH/44!
One had a bloodied palm print on one of its pages, the other had what appeared to be parts of a hand / fingerprints in blood!
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There were two Bibles seized by police, one originally marked DRH/33, and the other marked DRH/44!
One had a bloodied palm print on one of its pages, the other had what appeared to be parts of a hand / fingerprints in blood!
PS Adams told COLP investigators, that when he visited the main bedroom at around 9 O'clock and saw Sheila's body, he had no recollection of the rifle being with the body at that stage! He also said the Bible was in a different position than shown in the crime scene photographs taken of Sheila's body on the floor, and that her body was further away from the bedside cabinet than that shown in the crime scene photographs!
He also told COLP, that he had been involved in a discussion with PC Collins and others in the bedroom at that time, and they agreed that it appeared like June and Sheila had been sat up reading the Bibles before the shootings started!!
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Relatives ended up with me of these Bibles, and I think police destroyed the other!
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PS Adams told COLP investigators, that when he visited the main bedroom at around 9 O'clock and saw Sheila's body, he had no recollection of the rifle being with the body at that stage!
So, where was the rifle at 9 O'clock?
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So, where was the rifle at 9 O'clock?
It wasn't upon, or laid alongside her body when the commander of the first part of the operation (PS Adams) visited the main bedroom that's for sure, because he told the COLP investigators this!!
At 8.44am, the police Surgeon, Dr Craig, and others, stated that Sheila's 'body was on the far side of the bed with the rifle laying alongside her body'!
At 8.10am, there were only 'three bodies found upstairs'!
At 7.45am, 'Linda' in the control room, was contacting DS Davidson at his home address 'requesting him to come on duty ASAP because police were dealing with an incident at whf involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide'!
At 7.42am, message passed to control room, 'can you contact the police surgeon and Coroner's officer regarding two bodies, one dead male, one dead female'!
At 7.38am, radio message, 'one dead male, one dead female'!
At 7.37am, radio message, 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female found upon entry to kitchen'!
7.15am, WPC Jeapes, and PC Brown, see the 'rifle at the first floor box room window'!
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It wasn't upon, or laid alongside her body when the commander of the first part of the operation (PS Adams) visited the main bedroom that's for sure, because he told the COLP investigators this!!
At 8.44am, the police Surgeon, Dr Craig, and others, stated that Sheila's 'body was on the far side of the bed with the rifle laying alongside her body'!
At 8.10am, there were only 'three bodies found upstairs'!
At 7.45am, 'Linda' in the control room, was contacting DS Davidson at his home address 'requesting him to come on duty ASAP because police were dealing with an incident at whf involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide'!
At 7.42am, message passed to control room, 'can you contact the police surgeon and Coroner's officer regarding two bodies, one dead male, one dead female'!
At 7.38am, radio message, 'one dead male, one dead female'!
At 7.37am, radio message, 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female found upon entry to kitchen'!
7.15am, WPC Jeapes, and PC Brown, see the 'rifle at the first floor box room window'!
So, at 9 am where did the rifle which at 8.44am was laid alongside Sheila's body, disappear to?
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At around 7.15am, we know that the rifle which ended up alongside Sheila's body on the far side of the bed (8.44am) had been leaning against the first floor box room window! So somehow without any involvement of Jeremy Bamber, the only rifle found upstairs inside the farmhouse, managed to become transferred from that box room window into the main bedroom alongside Sheila's body! Oh, and at 8.44am, the police surgeon described Sheila as appearing to have one entry wound to her neck at 'that' stage!
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7.15am - rifle resting at first floor box room window!
7.37am - two bodies downstairs, body of one dead male, and body of one dead female
7.38am - one dead male, one dead female
7.42 am - contact your police surgeon and Coroner's officer concerning two bodies, one dead male, one dead female!
7.45am - come on duty ASAP police are dealing with an incident at whf involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide!
8.10am - three bodies found upstairs, five dead in total!
PS Adams relieved of his post as Commander of Operation, and replaced by PI Montgomery!!!
8.44am - Sheila's body on farside of the bed in the main bedroom, the rifle which had previously been resting against the first floor box room window is now laid alongside Sheila's body!!
9.00am - PS Adams visits main bedroom, sees body of Sheila Caffell, has no recollection of rifle being with her body! Body appears to be in different position by time photographs were taken later, and Bible has been moved!
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We then have the Coroner's officer, PC Wright, arriving at the scene (9.30am) he enters the main bedroom and sees Sheila's body! He says the rifle appeared to have been removed from the body by that stage! At this time Sheila had 2 wounds to her neck!
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Between 8.44am (police surgeon) and 9.30am (PC Wright) the number of wounds to Sheila's neck had increased by one additional wound, from what appeared to be a single wound (8.44am), into two wounds (9.30am)!
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Between 8.44am (police surgeon) and 9.30am (PC Wright) the number of wounds to Sheila's neck had increased by one additional wound, from what appeared to be a single wound (8.44am), into two wounds (9.30am)!
By 9am the rifle is not with the body (PS Adams), by 9.30am the rifle is still not with the body (PC Wright)!
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The rifle is photographed leaning against the main bedroom window (23)!
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The rifle is photographed leaning against the main bedroom window (23)!
From 10 am onward PC Bird starts to take crime scene photographs, showing the rifle with Sheila Caffells body (26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33)! A photographic schedule produced by the COLP investigators, confirms that the photograph which shows the rifle resting against the main bedroom window in photograph number 23, was taken before someone removed it from the window, and placed 'it' with Sheila Caffells body to then enable PC Bird to photograph Sheila's body in possession of the rifle as per photograph numbers, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33, were taken!
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Photograph number 25 was taken by a different SOCO, it shows the position of the rifles barrel resting against the left hand side of Sheila Caffells neck, in a totally different position to the other photographs taken by PC Bird, aforementioned!!!
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Photographs
23 - * rifle leaning at main bedroom window!
24
25 - * first time rifle is photographed with Sheila's body
26 - * first photograph taken by PC Bird showing rifle with body
27 - photograph taken by PC Bird
28 - photograph taken by PC Bird
29 - photograph taken by PC Bird
30 - photograph taken by PC Bird
31 - photograph taken by PC Bird
32 - photograph taken by PC Bird
33 - photograph taken by PC Bird
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According to what either DS Stan Jones, and DC Mick Clark told Ann Eaton at Jeremy's cottage, 9 Head Street, Goldhanger, on the first morning of the police investigation when both officers had already been inside the main bedroom at the farmhouse, that the bodies of June Bamber, and Sheila Caffell, had been laid in top of the bed alongside one another, with the rifle laid on the bed between them both! One or other of these police officers also told Ann Eaton that a Bible was found on top of Sheila's chest!
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According to what either DS Stan Jones, and DC Mick Clark told Ann Eaton at Jeremy's cottage, 9 Head Street, Goldhanger, on the first morning of the police investigation when both officers had already been inside the main bedroom at the farmhouse, that the bodies of June Bamber, and Sheila Caffell, had been laid in top of the bed alongside one another, with the rifle laid on the bed between them both! One or other of these police officers also told Ann Eaton that a Bible was found on top of Sheila's chest!
It becomes quite apparent that bodies, the Bible, and the rifle were being moved around at different stages of the police operation come investigation!
The rifle, for example, from its original position at the first floor box room window at around 7.15am, has found its way to be alongside Sheila's body on the far side of the bed by 8.44am. Then it goes missing by 9 am and is nowhere in sight near or upon the body! It then appears on the bed between the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell by the time DS Jones and DC Clark visit the main bedroom to view scene! By 9.30am when the coroner's officer arrives on the scene to view Sheila's body, he says the rifle was not with Sheila's body by that stage! We then have photograph number 25 taken by a SOCO which shows the barrell of the rifle resting against the left side of Sheila's neck! Then, from 10 am onward, PC Bird starts to take photographs which show the rifle in a different position on Sheila's body! During the trial, DI Ron Cook, and PC Bird told a deliberate lie regarding the sequence with which photograph numbers 23, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, and 33, were taken! For example, they stated that PC Bird took photographs showing the rifle with Sheila's body (25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, and 33) before the rifle was photographed at the main bedroom window (23)! This now being provable as a damn right lie by reference to the photographic schedule produced by COLP!
That lie told by these two cops regarding the position and whereabouts of the rifle at key stages of the police investigation exposes the corruption involved in this case! They moved the rifle about from (a) to (b) to (c), and proceeded as though the rifle had always been in Sheila Caffells possession right from the moment police first set foot inside the farmhouse let alone during the investigation of the matter from thereon in!
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The movement of Sheila's body - She must have been upstairs at the time someone placed the rifle at the first floor box room window at around 7.15am! The rifle did not position itself there at this time!If everyone was dead by 7.15am, who put the rifle there before the first member of the TFG entered the farmhouse at about 7.30am?
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The movement of Sheila's body - She must have been upstairs at the time someone placed the rifle at the first floor box room window at around 7.15am! The rifle did not position itself there at this time!If everyone was dead by 7.15am, who put the rifle there before the first member of the TFG entered the farmhouse at about 7.30am?
Sheila's body next appeared downstairs in the kitchen which coincided with the entry by the TFG to enter the kitchen farmhouse! Her body tagged there inside the kitchen at 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 7.45am! Sheila's body not upstairs by 8.10am!!
8.44am - Sheila's body is now upstairs on the far side of the bed!
9.06am - Sheila's and Junes bodies laid on bed alongside each other
9.10am - Sheila's body moved onto bedroom floor
9.13am - Sheila's body rolled into recovery position on right hand side after sustaining shot under chin!
10am - Sheila's body rolled back into supine position, and PC Bird proceeded to take photographs of her with gun in her possession...
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The bibles (two) were in the main bedroom, one of these with June Bamber on the bed! The other was on the bed to the left of the teddy bear (as viewed from the foot of the bed)! At 7.37am, the second bible could not have been on top of Sheila's body on the bed, neither could it have been resting against her upper right arm once her body eventually ended up on the bedroom floor! Two bibles, one DRH/33, the other DRH/44!!
How ironic, that the hand swabs supposedly taken by DC Hammersley, at one stage had the same exhibit references, DRH/33 and DRH/44!!
Then cops tried to hide the existence of one of the bibles, by claiming in the first instance that it had been destroyed, and secondly by giving the other bible back to the relatives! This enabled the hand swab evidence to be 'slipped in'!
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The bibles (two) were in the main bedroom, one of these with June Bamber on the bed! The other was on the bed to the left of the teddy bear (as viewed from the foot of the bed)! At 7.37am, the second bible could not have been on top of Sheila's body on the bed, neither could it have been resting against her upper right arm once her body eventually ended up on the bedroom floor! Two bibles, one DRH/33, the other DRH/44!!
How ironic, that the hand swabs supposedly taken by DC Hammersley, at one stage had the same exhibit references, DRH/33 and DRH/44!!
Then cops tried to hide the existence of one of the bibles, by claiming in the first instance that it had been destroyed, and secondly by giving the other bible back to the relatives! This enabled the hand swab evidence to be 'slipped in'!
As far as is known, lead deposit levels were not compared between those obtained from the control sample, and each of the hand swabs (left and right)! The comparisons were made with similar swabs taken from volunteers, obtained a day or so before the samples were tested, against those taken from Sheila over a month previously!
In addition, the bullets handled by the three volunteers were conspicuously coated in a grease, which was absent from the batch of bullets used during the shootings!!
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As far as is known, lead deposit levels were not compared between those obtained from the control sample, and each of the hand swabs (left and right)! The comparisons were made with similar swabs taken from volunteers, obtained a day or so before the samples were tested, against those taken from Sheila over a month previously!
In addition, the bullets handled by the three volunteers were conspicuously coated in a grease, which was absent from the batch of bullets used during the shootings!!
No wonder there turned out to be such a vast difference between the results obtained from Sheila's handswabs, and those of the volunteers!!
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The 'bodies moved', the 'rifle moved', the 'bibles moved', 'items of evidential value' moved by 'disguising them with exhibit references of other exhibits'! 'Edited, typed composite statements created in other peoples names, unsigned'!
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The 'bodies moved', the 'rifle moved', the 'bibles moved', 'items of evidential value' moved by 'disguising them with exhibit references of other exhibits'! 'Edited, typed composite statements created in other peoples names, unsigned'!
The sequence with which photographs were taken fiddled about with, edited, Composite photograph albums created to hide the corruption involved! 581 original photographs (THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM), secreted away, hid in ACC Peter Simpsons safe in his office, after he ordered DC Bird to create a 'composite version of the same, only this time it only had 223 photographs contained inside it, and it was given the rather dubious and very ,misleading title of 'THE MASTER COPY ALBUM'! The dishonesty did not end there, because cops and CPS created another composite photographic album consisting of only 50 of the photographs, hand picked to help the prosecution pull the wool over the juries eyes. This became known as 'THE COURT ALBUM'...
(a) 581 photographs contained in 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM'
(b) 223 photographs contained in 'THE MASTER COPY ALBUM' (558 missing retained in (a)
(c) 050 photographs contained in 'THE COURT ALBUM' (500 missing retained in (b)
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They tampered with the integrity of the batch of Crime Scene Bullets, and they tampered with the batch of bullet cases recovered from the Crime scene! Now, why would the scum of the earth want to tamper with the true exhibits, unless they had something to hide?
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Comparison tests of markings present upon bullet cases, were made on the following dates, at the lab' prior to the batch of crime scene bullet cases, being received at the lab', so could someone from the opposition camp please explain to me how this could have happened?
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Comparison tests of markings present upon bullet cases, were made on the following dates, at the lab' prior to the batch of crime scene bullet cases, being received at the lab', so could someone from the opposition camp please explain to me how this could have happened?
You are required to spell out in the queens basic English, how these comparison tests (all of them) could have been careied out on any date prior to 20th Auguat 1985?
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What we are dealing with here is 'STATE CORRUPTION', where the perpetrators believe they are immune from prosecution, no matter what!!!
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What we are dealing with here is 'STATE CORRUPTION', where the perpetrators believe they are immune from prosecution, no matter what!!!
OK, lets tamper with the batch of crime scene bullets, Crime scene bullet cases, and rounds of control ammunition! If you all want to support such corrupt actions then so be it! Honestly, just ask yourselves how these comparison tests could have been carried out prior to the Lab' receiving the batch of Crime Scene ammunition, on 20th September 1985?
Go on, ask yourselves!!!
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OK, lets tamper with the batch of crime scene bullets, Crime scene bullet cases, and rounds of control ammunition! If you all want to support such corrupt actions then so be it! Honestly, just ask yourselves how these comparison tests could have been carried out prior to the Lab' receiving the batch of Crime Scene ammunition, on 20th September 1985?
Go on, ask yourselves!!!
What we find is that these 'illegal' comparison tests, involving bullets, and spent cartridge cases, occurred on the 12th, 13th, 18th, and 19th September 1985 - too soon unfortunately for these to have been carried out lawfully and correctly!! Why I hear you ask, was this an illegal exercise?
Well, Lab' didn't officially receive the batch of crime scene ammunition (bullets and cases) until 20th September 1985! How then could comparison tests of the same have been completed beforehand?
Whoooops!!
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What we find is that these 'illegal' comparison tests, involving bullets, and spent cartridge cases, occurred on the 12th, 13th, 18th, and 19th September 1985 - too soon unfortunately for these to have been carried out lawfully and correctly!! Why I hear you ask, was this an illegal exercise?
Well, Lab' didn't officially receive the batch of crime scene ammunition (bullets and cases) until 20th September 1985! How then could comparison tests of the same have been completed beforehand?
Whoooops!!
What a coincidence, that these 'unofficial' comparison tests were carried out when they were ( prior to the ballistic expert, Malcom Fletcher, receiving the batch of crime scene ammunition used in the shootings, consisting of 25 bullet, part bullet, or bullet fragments, 25 spent cartridge cases, and 29 control rounds, which he test fired on 20th, 25th September, and 2nd October 1985, and carried out official comparison tests, on those dates of the remaining crime scene bullets, and spent cartridge cases)...
The problem for Fletcher, is that his signature appears on all the 'General Examination Records' , where comparison tests were carried out on 12th, 13th, 18th and 19th September, 1985! Thus he is linked to the official comparison tests carried out on and after 20th September 1985, and linked to the unofficial comparison tests carried out prior to 20th September 1985!
When interviewed by COLP regarding the test firing of the anshuzt rifle (DRH/15), with control ammunition (DRH/42) he stated that he had received the batch of crime scene ammunition on 20th September 1985, and that he then proceeded to test fire the rifle with the batch of control ammunition, firing shots through the rifle with a silencer fitted, and without a silencer fitted! COLP established that Fletcher had only used 27 of the 29 control rounds, and after pointing this discrepancy out to him, Fletcher then offered the excuse that these two missing control rounds must have either been lost, or discarded!
Well, in order for the other 'unofficial test firing' to have taken place, there would have needed to have been an unofficial test fire of the rifle and two control rounds which took place prior to Fletcher receiving them officially on 20th September, 1985! Therefore, Fletcher has lied about his involvement with the full compliment of crime scene ammunition, consisting of 25 bullets, part bullets, and fragmented pieces of bullet, and 25 spent cartridge cases, along with 29 control rounds! He is tied to the unofficial test firing and the unofficial comparison tests which were conducted on 12th, 13th, 18th and 19th September 1985, and the official test firing of the rifle, and the official comparison tests of crime scene bullets, part bullets, and fragments of bullets, spent cartridge cases, and 27 control rounds, on and after' the 20th September 1985 (20th, 25th September, and 2nd October 1985)!
As I say, and I agree with Ewen Smiths view that Fletcher was a dodgy expert!
He was dodgy alright!
How do I know he is dodgy?
It's simple really...
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Please pay attention!!
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Please pay attention!!
In one of Malcom Fletcher's witness statements, he states that prior to him receiving the anshuzt rifle, (DRH/15), batch of crime scene bullets and spent cartridge cases, and the 27 control rounds (DRH/42), on the 20th September 1985, and he proceeding to carry out test firing of the same, with comparison tests between crime ammunition and control ammunition, that he did not know when had been the last occasion that the anshuzt rifle had been fired!!
Liar! Liar! Liar!!
Where is the proof that Fletcher has lied regarding this matter, and more importantly why would Fletcher tell such a deliberate lie unless he did not want it made known that he had test fired the anshuzt rifle with at least two of the 29 control rounds either on or prior to the 12th September 1985? Examination of the lab' 'General Examination Records' pertaining to comparison tests which took place nvolving crime scene ammunition, and control ammunition' between 12th and 19th September, 1985, bear Fletcher's signatures which he also dates prior to 20th September, 1985!!
Fletcher there knew that the anshuzt rifle must have last been fired either on, or prior to the 12th September 1985, when the first comparison tests between crime scene ammo', and control ammo', took place!!!
Bingo!!!
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Fletcher has lied about the dates some of the crime scene ammunition has been compared against control ammunition, either side of 20th September 1985! He claims he only performed such tests post 20th September 1985, but there exists clear evidence that he test fired the anshuzt rifle, with control rounds either on, or before 12 the September, 1985!!
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Dodgy Comparison tests
Spent Cartridge Cases
(1) DRH/4 - 13 September 1985
(2) DRH/19 - 18 September 1985
(3) DRH/20 - 18 September 1985
(4) DRH/35a - 13 September 1985
(5) DRH/35b - 13 September 1985
(6) DRH/37 - 18 September 1985
(7) DRH/38 - 18 September 1985
(8) DRH/46 - 13 September 1985
(9) DRH/41 - 13 September 1985
(10) DRH/43 - 13 September 1985
_______________________
20th September 1985
_______________________
Official Comparison tests
(11) DRH/1 - 20 September 1985
(12) DRH/2 - 20 September 1985
(13) DRH/3 - 20 September 1985
(14) DRH/6 - 20 September 1985
(15) DRH/7a - 20 September 1985
(16) DRH/7b - 20 September 1985
(17) DRH/8 - 20 September 1985
(18) DRH/10 - 20 September 1985
(19) DRH/11 - 20 September 1985
(20) DRH/12 - 20 September 1985
(21) DRH/13 - 20 September 1985
(22) DRH/14 - 20 September 1985
(23) DRH/16 - 20 September 1985
(24) DRH/17 - 20 September 1985
(25) DRH/18 - 20 September 1985
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10 dodgy bullet cases, and 10 bullets, part bullet, or fragments of a bullet that cannot be positively linked to having been fired via the anshuzt rifle!!
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10 dodgy bullet cases, and 10 bullets, part bullet, or fragments of a bullet that cannot be positively linked to having been fired via the anshuzt rifle!!
At least one bullet (the original badly fragmented PV/20) swapped with a whole control round, so that in total 11 dodgy bullet casings, and one dodgy bullet!!
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Dodgy Comparison tests
Spent Cartridge Cases
(1) DRH/4 - 13 September 1985
(2) DRH/19 - 18 September 1985
(3) DRH/20 - 18 September 1985
(4) DRH/35a - 13 September 1985
(5) DRH/35b - 13 September 1985
(6) DRH/37 - 18 September 1985
(7) DRH/38 - 18 September 1985
(8) DRH/46 - 13 September 1985
(9) DRH/41 - 13 September 1985
(10) DRH/43 - 13 September 1985
_______________________
20th September 1985
_______________________
These earlier comparison tests of at least 10 (but possibly 11) spent cases, involved Malcom Fletcher on dates prior to the date he officially claims to have received them, involving control ammunition which must have been fired through the said rifle prior to 20th September 1985! Therefore, Fletcher's claim that he did not know when the rifle had last been fired is exposed as a lie, because none of these 10 comparison tests could have been undertaken on the specified dates without at least 1, but quite possibly 2 control rounds being already test fired in the same rifle these spent cartridge cases related to...
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Why these 10 crime scene cases?
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Why these 10 crime scene cases?
And now, the truth in the matter becomes revealed - these 10 bullet cases are believed to have been the first 10 rounds fired during the incident, proving that the shooter almost certainly targeted the two child victims in the boys bedroom! The shooter fired a shot in the vicinity of the main bedroom door, and shots downstairs in the kitchen!!
Spent Cartridge Cases
(1) DRH/4 - 13 September 1985 - main bedroom next to DRH/3 near door
(2) DRH/19 - 18 September 1985 - on kitchen table
(3) DRH/20 - 18 September 1985 - on floor kitchen
(4) DRH/35a - 13 September 1985 - boys bedroom right hand corner under bed
(5) DRH/35b - 13 September 1985 - boys bedroom right hand corner under bed
(6) DRH/37 - 18 September 1985 - boys bedroom under bedside cabinet
(7) DRH/38 - 18 September 1985 - boys bedroom under right hand bed
(8) DRH/46 - 13 September 1985 - boys bedroom under middle of right hand bed
(9) DRH/41 - 13 September 1985 - boys bedroom under right hand bed
(10) DRH/43 - 13 September 1985 - kitchen table
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Many from the guilty camp, were strenuously arguing not so long ago, that the rifle was leaning against the first floor box room window, rather than the main bedroom window - I changed my stance to agree with them, but now the guilters are ignoring the presence of the said rifle at the box room window, and are refusing to accept that the same rifle ultimately got moved ending up with Sheila Caffells body!!
The transfer of the said rifle from box room window onto Sheila's body occurring after the TFG entered the farmhouse at around 7.30am!!!
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Many from the guilty camp, were strenuously arguing not so long ago, that the rifle was leaning against the first floor box room window, rather than the main bedroom window - I changed my stance to agree with them, but now the guilters are ignoring the presence of the said rifle at the box room window, and are refusing to accept that the same rifle ultimately got moved ending up with Sheila Caffells body!!
The transfer of the said rifle from box room window onto Sheila's body occurring after the TFG entered the farmhouse at around 7.30am!!!
Just shows you how bias these guilters are!!
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Only rifle upstairs was moved, from box room window, onto the body of Sheila Caffell - proving that Jeremy Bamber had not shot and killed his sister, and then staged her death scene!!
Basic detective work!!!
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Thanks Reader, can you provide a link?
There's a reference near the end of this post (http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=2044&p=18880#p18880).
This post (http://www.sleuthingforjustice.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=2811&p=24288) might also be of interest.
You have to be logged in to the sleuthingforjustice site to be able to view the posts.
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Many from the guilty camp, were strenuously arguing not so long ago, that the rifle was leaning against the first floor box room window, rather than the main bedroom window - I changed my stance to agree with them, but now the guilters are ignoring the presence of the said rifle at the box room window, and are refusing to accept that the same rifle ultimately got moved ending up with Sheila Caffells body!!
The transfer of the said rifle from box room window onto Sheila's body occurring after the TFG entered the farmhouse at around 7.30am!!!
The photographic Schedule produced by the COLP Investigation confirms that photograph number 23 was taken before photograph 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, and 33!
Here is a copy of photograph 23:-
(http://)
The anshuzt rifle is clearly and irrefuteably leaning against the main bedroom window...
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Here is photographic number 32:-
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Please tell me which part of the sequence any jury in the country or worldwide, would not understand which of these two photographs was taken first?
First photograph number 23 (Master Copy Album)
Second photograph number 32 (Master Copy Album)
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Ya know, Mike, if you'd have given each of these despised -by you- characters, ONE story, and stuck with it, it might have been more believable. It's like, you're so determined that they should be guilty of something, that you appear to throw in numerous suggestions in the hope that one will stick.
I consider my posts as diary entries, and would appreciate it if they were treated as such, dated, timed - whats your angle?
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Please tell me which part of the sequence any jury in the country or worldwide, would not understand which of these two photographs was taken first?
First photograph number 23 (Master Copy Album)
Second photograph number 32 (Master Copy Album)
Somehow, after PC David Bird, photographed (23) the anshuzt rifle leaning against the main bedroom window, it ended up with Sheila's body (32) and I for one want to know from official sources how that fucking rifle moved from the window onto the body between 7.30am and 10 am?
It's not a difficult question to answer!
Some fukker shifted that rifle, from that window, and they planted it, with Sheila Caffells body on the bedroom floor!!!
Now, I am wise enough to know that Jeremy Bamber did not play any role in the movement of the rifle from the window to the body! Don't waste your time trying to convince me that Jeremy killed his sister and staged her death scene to fool the dishonest Essex cops into believing that Sheila had taken her own life! She didn't kill herself with use of that rifle, although she was shot once by use of it! Jeremy's claim that his sister killed herself will never be believed, and if he continues as he is doing bleiving that Sheila shot herself when cops entered the farmhouse he will die in prison!!
Do not consider myself to be an ordinary fool!
Foolish sometimes I might be, but I know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, truth and lies!
Cops brought the rifle from a first floor window to the displaced body of Sheila Caffell which had originally been present downstairs in the kitchen when the TFG entered, then and a period of roughly 15 to 20 minutes, her body ended upstairs on top of the bed in the main bedroom alongside the body of her adoptive mother! Then her body and the body of her mother were moved to the bedroom floor, either side of the bed! When her body was downstairs (7.37am to 8.10am) she did not have possession of any gun! When she ended up being relocated on the bed alongside the body of her mother there was initially no rifle in her possession, or laid on the bed between either body! But cops eventually brought the only rifle found upstairs at a first floor box room window, from the box room and placed on the bed between both bodies (this was the scene that DS Stan Jones, and DC Mick Clark saw when they visited the main bedroom prior to leaving the farmhouse to go with Jeremy to his cottage to take his first witness statement)!
You need to explain to me, how that rifle then got from being laid in-between the bodies of June and Sheila on the bed, onto Sheila's body (32) once cops had moved Sheila's body onto the bedroom floor alongside the left hand edge of the bed, via (23) the main bedroom window!!
Don't insult me by trying to claim that Jeremy put the gun with Sheila's body!
Of course he didn't put the rifle with Sheila's body, any suggestion that he had done is plainly bullshit and lies!!!
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This (23) photograph was taken before this (32) photograph, the lot of you need to get a grip of reality!
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If I am wrong, please bring back hanging and I will gladly go to the gallows in the footsteps of the likes of Derek Bently and Ruth Ellis!!
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If I am wrong, please bring back hanging and I will gladly go to the gallows in the footsteps of the likes of Derek Bently and Ruth Ellis!!
The Criminal Justice System is Corrupt, run and influenced by dishonest Cops, Magistrates, CPS, Judiciary, and Government Agencies!!
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The Criminal Justice System is Corrupt, run and influenced by dishonest Cops, Magistrates, CPS, Judiciary, and Government Agencies!!
Liars, dishonest, unscrupolous individuals, making up false evidence, to enable the powers that be, to convict and sentence people, and at the same time elevate themselves to positions of being acclaimed decent, hard working, members of society!
I don't think so!!!
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Liars, dishonest, unscrupolous individuals, making up false evidence, to enable the powers that be, to convict and sentence people, and at the same time elevate themselves to positions of being acclaimed decent, hard working, members of society!
I don't think so!!!
Innocent victims, being persecuted, by the agencies of the state, convictions being secured, based upon false evidence, they are all in on the deception together, all looking after each others interests! The lot of them, to one degree, or another, applying the same trie and tested formula, like in the dark ages - we must all stick together, and believe in one another, in the interests of justice!!!
Interests of justice, means what, exactly?
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Of course, I am mentally unwell...
That's what the system is saying!
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Of course, I am mentally unwell...
That's what the system is saying!
That's what the system is saying!!
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Mentally, unwell?
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Mentally, unwell?
I am mentally unwell!!!
What the fuck!!
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I am mentally unwell!!!
What the xxxx!!
I am mentally unwell, but the state stills intends to xxxxxxx prosecute me...
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Have the authorities, any idea what it feels like, to be the suspect in a case they intend to prosecute me for?
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Mike,you're stressed out,not mentally ill. Those who ARE mentally ill don't know that they are, so aren't able to say so.
Or------they are in denial of any mental illness. Either way,they're not always aware of it.
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Mike,you're stressed out,not mentally ill. Those who ARE mentally ill don't know that they are, so aren't able to say so.
Or------they are in denial of any mental illness. Either way,they're not always aware of it.
Unfortunately, 'mental illness' is now a blanket term for everything from stress to psychosis. Some HATE being labeled as such. SOME find it convenient.
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Unfortunately, 'mental illness' is now a blanket term for everything from stress to psychosis. Some HATE being labeled as such. SOME find it convenient.
I agree with your final words as the term is used too freely in many cases where self-help is the most appropriate.
Lots of illnesses/ailments are being abused and it makes me seethe when there are those in genuine plights whose needs are ignored.
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Of course, I am mentally unwell...
That's what the system is saying!
Sorry to hear you are mentally unwell Mike. I hope it doesn't effect future posts and threads from you.
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Sorry to hear you are mentally unwell Mike. I hope it doesn't effect future posts and threads from you.
Adam I think you may be reading Mike's post incorrectly think he means the system thinks he is mentally unwell he is not saying he is that is how I read it anyway.
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I have seen through the dishonesty of this prosecution of Jeremy Bamber - they brought the gun from a first room box room window, and via placing it between the bodies of Sheila Caffell and June Bamber on the bed, and it being placed at the main bedroom window, cops positioned it upon Sheila's body to give the impression that she had shot herself! Unfortunately for Essex police I was able to piece together the exact sequence of events! I was able to do this because what cops are saying they found upon first entry into different parts of the farmhouse in typed Composite witness statements, does not match what was said in real time and recorded honestly in the heat of the moment in so called police radio message logs! Beteween 7.37am and 8.10am there were two bodies downstairs, not one body mistaken for two! At 8.10am, there was definately only three other bodies upstairs!
From around 8.15am, there was only one body downstairs, this was the body of Neville Bamber, and by 8.30am, four bodies upstairs!
Seems to me that the vast majority of people do not want this to be true!
So, how can it be proven?