Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on May 20, 2012, 05:32:PM
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Occupants of CA07, relayed information to control room, from raid team...
So, why haven't we heard exactly what the raid team said, which was heard by the occupants of CA07, which caused them to send radio messages timed at 7:37am, onwards, that the bodies of one dead male, and one dead female had been found upon entry into the farmhouse?
Over to you, Bews, Myall and Saxby. Please feel free to give us all the benefit of your accounts...
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Patrol car (CA07) was parked a considerable distance away from whf in pages lane, parked up outside some farm cottages. It was from this police vehicle that messages were relaid back to the control room by Saxby, Myall and Bews, after receiving information from members of the raid team engaged in duties inside whf...
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How could the occupants of CA07, make a mistake in reporting the discovery of the bodies of a dead male, and a dead female to enable them to send a radio message to the control room at 7:37am, to that effect, if it was not true? Followed by a second radio message a minute later confirming that two bodies had been found upon entry, one dead male, one dead female (7:38am)?
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How could the occupants of CA07, make a mistake in reporting the discovery of the bodies of a dead male, and a dead female to enable them to send a radio message to the control room at 7:37am, to that effect, if it was not true? Followed by a second radio message a minute later confirming that two bodies had been found upon entry, one dead male, one dead female (7:38am)?
Worse still...
Why was a message sent from the scene by CA07 requesting that the police surgeon and coroners officer should be notified that two bodies had been found at the scene, if two bodies had not been found at the scene by that stage? Where did the occupants of CA07 get this information from to warrant it being relayed to the control room?
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Since the occupants of CA07 were the ones relaying messages from the scene back to the control room, hiw did the control room know that police at the scene were dealing with a murder and a suicide before 7:45am, to enable the control room to contact SOCO and request that they come into the office because police at whf were dealing with a murder and a suicide?
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Since the occupants of CA07 were the ones relaying messages from the scene back to the control room, hiw did the control room know that police at the scene were dealing with a murder and a suicide before 7:45am, to enable the control room to contact SOCO and request that they come into the office because police at whf were dealing with a murder and a suicide?
Where did the occupants of CA07 get the information that the raid team had not only found two bodies inside the premises upon entry to the kitchen, and that one of these bodies was a dead male, whilst the other was supposedly a dead female, but how did they know that one of these deaths was a murder and the other a suicide? Where did the occupants of CA07 get this information from, and how was this information relayed to the control room?
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Over to you "BEWSEY", it's your time to shine (go on lad, make a name for yourself, be the first one to officially spill the beans, you like appearing on TV documentaries, don't you?...
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How come there is a complete absence of any communication between members of the raid team inside the farmhouse, and the occupants of CA07, and also regarding what the control room said in response to what they were being told by CA07 from the scene?
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Shoot me down If you like, but I remember 10(+) years ago JB was offering £1 million reward for information that leads to his release. Does that still stand and why has no one taken up the offer?
I mean,someone with Ill health or of latter years, nice little brucie bonus.....
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I read somewhere that the police,on approaching the farmhouse noticed that lights were on inside the place.
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Shoot me down If you like, but I remember 10(+) years ago JB was offering £1 million reward for information that leads to his release. Does that still stand and why has no one taken up the offer?
Yes, offer still stands to all comers and everyone, until Jeremy withdraws it...
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I read somewhere that the police,on approaching the farmhouse noticed that lights were on inside the place.
Hi lookout, yeah its me again...lol
The main bedroom light was on.
The twins room
The bathroom upstairs
The landing light
And the Kitchen.....
:)
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I read somewhere that the police,on approaching the farmhouse noticed that lights were on inside the place.
Yes one of the police statements said all the lights were on lookout but others sauid only a few lights were on. :-\
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Yes, offer still stands to all comers and everyone, until Jeremy withdraws it...
Surely nows the time for people such as Bews to reveal the truth, cop (sorry) a nice little earner and let justice take its true path?
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Yes one of the police statements said all the lights were on lookout but others sauid only a few lights were on. :-\
If the lights were on it would be less easy to notice the moonshining on the windows wouldn't it? I would have thought if the moon came out from behind a cloud and suddenly reflected on the dark window it could look like movement but the moon was the other side of the house so how could that happen?
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If the lights were on it would be less easy to notice the moonshining on the windows wouldn't it? I would have thought if the moon came out from behind a cloud and suddenly reflected on the dark window it could look like movement but the moon was the other side of the house so how could that happen?
That's a good point maggie....Does Bews say the main bedroom light was on???
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Thankyou for that,girls. It tells me a lot really.
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That's a good point maggie....Does Bews say the main bedroom light was on???
I think Bews said a couple of lights were on as opposed to others saying all the lights were on. Need to look at documentary.
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Moon rises in east and sets in west doesn't it?
Here is a layout of the farmhouse, top of image being north, bottom south, to left as viewed west, and to the right as viewed east., if it helps:-
(Google image must have been taken sometime in the late afternoon when the sun was in a south westerly part of the sky according to the shadows shown in the image)
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I think Bews said a couple of lights were on as opposed to others saying all the lights were on. Need to look at documentary.
I think Bewsey said in the documentary that there was no light on in the window top right, at which the suspected figure was spotted? This is very interesting because the main bedroom was back lit by the upstairs landing light which was shining through the open bedroom door, which had the effect of showing the person inside the room as a silhouetted figure (according to Jeremy's view of it). I am wondering if Bewsey's account is in relation to a different sighting at the other upstairs bedroom window, not the one at the main bedroom window which Jeremy speaks of, since the main bedroom window is situated top left of the building as viewed by the observers...
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Yes, offer still stands to all comers and everyone, until Jeremy withdraws it...
Why not post the picture of Sheila on the bed, plus the WHF itemised phone bill, and collect the cool mill then Mikey?
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Why not post the picture of Sheila on the bed, plus the WHF itemised phone bill, and collect the cool mill then Mikey?
Well I suppose we would all like that to happen Bob. But what we are discussing here are actual contradictory statements by the raid team. They are documented words. Upon entry one dead male and one dead female. Then when they went upstairs they reported 3 more dead bodies. At some point Sheila's body was transported upstairs by person or persons unknown. Or which has been suggested, by her own self? That part cannot unfortunately be established. But the contradiction can, in spite of their denials and carefully harmonised statements afterwards when they all met together for the briefing. Something is not complete here and I for one would like to know what really went on that night with the SOC officers?
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Well I suppose we would all like that to happen Bob. But what we are discussing here are actual contradictory statements by the raid team. They are documented words. Upon entry one dead male and one dead female. Then when they went upstairs they reported 3 more dead bodies. At some point Sheila's body was transported upstairs by person or persons unknown. Or which has been suggested, by her own self? That part cannot unfortunately be established. But the contradiction can, in spite of their denials and carefully harmonised statements afterwards when they all met together for the briefing. Something is not complete here and I for one would like to know what really went on that night with the SOC officers?
If I was a mod I would find Hartley's 'one dead female one dead male explanation and sticky it to the top of the forum'.
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If I was a mod I would find Hartley's 'one dead female one dead male explanation and sticky it to the top of the forum'.
Trouble with that explanation, it does not account for how one of these dead bodies was a murder, and the other one a suicide, by 7:45am...
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Trouble with that explanation, it does not account for how one of these dead bodies was a murder, and the other one a suicide, by 7:45am...
It accounts for it perfectly.
What you really need to ask yourself is why Davidson said that he understood from the description of 'a murder and a suicide' as ONE or TWO bodies.
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If I was a mod I would find Hartley's 'one dead female one dead male explanation and sticky it to the top of the forum'.
Fair play to him for coming up with an explanation. It did not ring true for me and I certainly would not sticky it. I suppose it could be stickied as 'Hartley's explanation' :)
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It accounts for it perfectly.
What you really need to ask yourself is why Davidson said that he understood from the description of 'a murder and a suicide' as ONE or TWO bodies.
What, Ralph Bambers death, being described as a suicide?
Shot 8 times?
Refer to all the previous radio message logs passed from the scene, and let everyone make up their own minds:-
07:37am - the body of one dead male and the body of one dead female
07:37am - one dead male, one dead female
07:41am - can someone contact the police surgeon and coroners officer regarding two bodies
Please try to explain for everyones benefit where the information about police being at whf in relation to a murder and a suicide came from? I suppose the control room just made it up, eh?
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What, Ralph Bambers death, being described as a suicide?
Shot 8 times?
Refer to all the previous radio message logs passed from the scene, and let everyone make up their own minds:-
07:37am - the body of one dead male and the body of one dead female
07:37am - one dead male, one dead female
07:41am - can someone contact the police surgeon and coroners officer regarding two bodies
Please try to explain for everyones benefit where the information about police being at whf in relation to a murder and a suicide came from? I suppose the control room just made it up, eh?
Nice try. But the fact if the matter was that they didn't really know what they were dealing with, there were bodies, Davidson was simply given a heads up of what to expect.
It's quite laughable that it's come down to you relying on the wording used to call Davidson to the scene, yet dismiss Davidsons own opinion of what the communication meant. He didn't take the descrption as gospel, he took it as a best guess heads up, ONE or TWO bodies. Yet you try to mislead and trick people into making it mean TWO bodies.
In my humble opinion, if that is the best you have got, then I don't really have anything to challenge.
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Nice try. But the fact if the matter was that they didn't really know what they were dealing with, there were bodies, Davidson was simply given a heads up of what to expect.
It's quite laughable that it's come down to you relying on the wording used to call Davidson to the scene, yet dismiss Davidsons own opinion of what the communication meant. He didn't take the descrption as gospel, he took it as a best guess heads up, ONE or TWO bodies. Yet you try to mislead and trick people into making it mean TWO bodies.
In my humble opinion, if that is the best you have got, then I don't really have anything to challenge.
To all intents and purposes Hartley it is not clear and mike's interpretation is as likely as your own. It just depends where you're coming from. If the jury had not been lead down the 'was it Sheila or Jeremy ' route there is little or no concrete proof. At the moment it is mainly supposition.Imho
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Nice try. But the fact if the matter was that they didn't really know what they were dealing with, there were bodies, Davidson was simply given a heads up of what to expect.
It's quite laughable that it's come down to you relying on the wording used to call Davidson to the scene, yet dismiss Davidsons own opinion of what the communication meant. He didn't take the descrption as gospel, he took it as a best guess heads up, ONE or TWO bodies. Yet you try to mislead and trick people into making it mean TWO bodies.
In my humble opinion, if that is the best you have got, then I don't really have anything to challenge.
Davidson told COLP that DI Cook handed him a paint sample, RC/1 on 8th August 1985, some six days before he was handed the silencer supposedly found by Boutflour in the gun cupboard, and so here is a typical example of what Davidson has to say about the date a paint sample was taken because some paint had been found on the end of a guns barrel -now why would Davidson who was an exhibits officer be saying that Cook had taken a paint sample RC/1 from the aga surround on 8th August 1985, if Cook says he didn't take such a paint sample until 14th August 1985? Seems like you are selective about what you choose to rely on just so long as it suits your own purpose to mislead everyone. Next you'll be saying police didn't stage manage Sheila's body on the bedroom floor...
You'll be trying to pin the blame on Jeremy for doing the very things the police are responsible for doing...
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You will blame Jeremy for anything and everything, but we all know the truth about what really took place, we all know the dodgy silencer evidence was introduced by the relatives with one thing in mind...
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To all intents and purposes Hartley it is not clear and mike's interpretation is as likely as your own. It just depends where you're coming from. If the jury had not been lead down the 'was it Sheila or Jeremy ' route there is little or no concrete proof. At the moment it is mainly supposition.Imho
Unfortunately not Maggie, Mike wants to persuade people that something other than the 'official' chain of events occured, he has failed, because as you rightly state, it's all suposition based on not a lot.
If that's not the case and he has some sort of concrete proof, such as a phone bill or a photograph of Sheila on the bed, then, and I'm sure I speak for the whole forum here (both sides), let's see it please. I'm sure Jeremy wouldn't mind a copy also.
Until that happens (which I don't believe ever could) we'll just have the same old arguments. The above argument for example, has played itself out, between Mike and I, about five or six times over the last year or so, each time identical to the last.
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Unfortunately not Maggie, Mike wants to persuade people that something other than the 'official' chain of events occured, he has failed, because as you rightly state, it's all suposition based on not a lot.
If that's not the case and he has some sort of concrete proof, such as a phone bill or a photograph of Sheila on the bed, then, and I'm sure I speak for the whole forum here (both sides), let's see it please. I'm sure Jeremy wouldn't mind a copy also.
Until that happens (which I don't believe ever could) we'll just have the same old arguments. The above argument for example, has played itself out, between Mike and I, about five or six times over the last year or so, each time identical to the last.
If Jeremy killed Sheila and stage managed her body on the bedroom floor with the rifle atop it, there would be corresponding marks on Sheila's legs and thighs where the rifle had been resting for all those hours after her death, but there are no such marks present there in any of the autopsy photographs - this is direct evidence that police stage managed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor and blamed Jeremy for doing so...
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I urge those representing Jeremy's interests to pursue this matter / feature, since I believe it will be proof enough that Jeremy did not and could not have killed his sister as claimed by the prosecutions case. An absence of any corresponding marks on the relevant parts of Sheila's thighs and legs from the rifle resting upon those parts of her body, should be sufficient to disprove the case against Jeremy...
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Unfortunately not Maggie, Mike wants to persuade people that something other than the 'official' chain of events occured, he has failed, because as you rightly state, it's all suposition based on not a lot.
If that's not the case and he has some sort of concrete proof, such as a phone bill or a photograph of Sheila on the bed, then, and I'm sure I speak for the whole forum here (both sides), let's see it please. I'm sure Jeremy wouldn't mind a copy also.
Until that happens (which I don't believe ever could) we'll just have the same old arguments. The above argument for example, has played itself out, between Mike and I, about five or six times over the last year or so, each time identical to the last.
Hartley
Surely this is the final tradegy and its caused by witholding so much information. It cannot be laid to rest til all the evidence is releadrd into the public domain.
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"Oh, it's all gone quiet over there, it's all gone quiet over there, it's all gone quiet, it's all gone quiet, it's all gone quiet over there"...
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"Oh, it's all gone quiet over there, it's all gone quiet over there, it's all gone quiet, it's all gone quiet, it's all gone quiet over there"...
There are no corresponding marks from the rifle resting upon Sheila's legs and thighs to support the claim that the riffle had been resting there upon her body for several hours prior to the photographs which PC Bird took at 10am...
You fuckers are gonna pay dearly for trying to pull a fast one on poor old Jeremy, and for trying to make all those who have represented him in the past look like fools, this is just the beginning of the end, there is gonna be hell to pay for the lot of you for perverting the course of justice...
CCRC hang your heads in shame, you should be disbanded because all you do is delay cases being taken back to the court of appeal. You have brought the criminal justice system into disrepute...
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"Oh, it's all gone quiet over there, it's all gone quiet over there, it's all gone quiet, it's all gone quiet, it's all gone quiet over there"...
Didn't Bjork sing that? :-\
In all seriousness, you are wasting your time with me, if you want some sort of a reaction then you've got the wrong guy, if you are able to hoodwink a few people, then congratulations, but I'm not quite sure how you think that helps, if anything I'd say that it alienates as many people as it misleads.
But whatever floats ya boat. ::)
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Even at the scene when police were moving the rifle around on Sheila's body and they shifted the hem of her nightdress and brought the curved edge of the rifles wooden stock in line with the raised hem line, you cannot see any marks at all where the rifle had previously been resting on parts of her legs...
If the rifle had been resting there for over seven hours it would definitely have left some marks there, but as everyone can see there are no corresponding marks made by the rifle, so how could Jeremy have stage managed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor from as long ago as 3am?
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There are no corresponding marks from the rifle resting upon Sheila's legs and thighs to support the claim that the riffle had been resting there upon her body for several hours prior to the photographs which PC Bird took at 10am...
You fuckers are gonna pay dearly for trying to pull a fast one on poor old Jeremy, and for trying to make all those who have represented him in the past look like fools, this is just the beginning of the end, there is gonna be hell to pay for the lot of you for perverting the course of justice...
CCRC hang your heads in shame, you should be disbanded because all you do is delay cases being taken back to the court of appeal. You have brought the criminal justice system into disrepute...
Mike I have huge respect for you, the way you have ignored the slings and arrows. Jeremy was really lucky the day he met such a loyal friend. You fight on undeterred. Just wanted to say that.
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Has the bed been re - made ?
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Has the bed been re - made ?
Whose bed Mertol?
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I urge those representing Jeremy's interests to pursue this matter / feature, since I believe it will be proof enough that Jeremy did not and could not have killed his sister as claimed by the prosecutions case. An absence of any corresponding marks on the relevant parts of Sheila's thighs and legs from the rifle resting upon those parts of her body, should be sufficient to disprove the case against Jeremy...
Bob Millers notebook states that the rifle was on her right side and not on her body.
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Bob Millers notebook states that the rifle was on her right side and not on her body.
Yes saw that Grahame.
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Mike I have huge respect for you, the way you have ignored the slings and arrows. Jeremy was really lucky the day he met such a loyal friend. You fight on undeterred. Just wanted to say that.
When I saw the photograph of Sheila on the bed with the hem of her nightdress riding high up her thighs and her crotch exposed, I was shocked, totally shocked, not only because police had said they found her on the bedroom floor with the gun atop her body, nor because there was hardly any blood staining on her face and the top right hand side of her nightdress, but chiefly because there were no corresponding marks on her legs and thighs where the rifle would have had to be resting had Jeremy killed his sister hours before the police forced their way into the farmhouse to discover her body...
By the time I removed the photograph from the album in Ewens office (2004) I knew immediately that police had framed Jeremy for these murders by falsely claiming they had found Sheila's body on the bedroom floor with the rifle atop it, undisturbed by any police hand. I knew this to be a blatant lie, and by this stage I was aware that police had suggested in one form or other that her body had been found in at least three different locations and positions around the house, but that they had settled for her body having been found on the bedroom floor (the biggest lie of all). I knew there would come a day when someone would have to listen to what I had to say because of the absence of these marks on her legs and thighs where the rifle would have had to be laid for several hours, for there to be any chance of Jeremy having been guilty of these murders...
Police planted the rifle on Sheila's body, and blamed Jeremy for having done just that...
It's now time. for Jeremy's legal team to get on with the task of proving what I have been saying to be true for so long. At last there is a chink of light at the end of a very long tunnel, which is capable of proving that police placed the rifle atop Sheila's body and blamed Jeremy for doing what they themselves are responsible for having done, and that this was used to help convict him for these murders...
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Whose bed Mertol?
hello maggie , next to sheila.
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If I was a mod I would find Hartley's 'one dead female one dead male explanation and sticky it to the top of the forum'.
I have never seen his explanation? But what I will contend with is that they "made a mistake". That is a very easy thing to say. But any kind of explanation still leave that unanswered. They may be able to explain away the "mistake" of seeing two bodies through the window (although the position of Ralph's chair would have made him very easy to see through the window) and then to repeat the same "mistake" when they reported one dead male and one dead female when they actually entered the property. (I do not agree that this was just a reiteration of the former message of what they saw through the window. That is very hard to believe and seems to be a very forced interpretation of what happened?)
But they cannot explain away the fact that they also reported three more bodies upstairs. It cannot be a mistake and I cannot accept that as an explanation.
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Surely, somebody should be able to make a molehill out of a mountain now that they have this to work on?
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Bob Millers notebook states that the rifle was on her right side and not on her body.
Members of the raid team say thy found Sheila's body on the bedroom floor with the rifle atop it and the barrel pointing in the direction of her chin...
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Members of the raid team say thy found Sheila's body on the bedroom floor with the rifle atop it and the barrel pointing in the direction of her chin...
At 9am, PS Adams visits the main bedroom and sees Sheila's body but has no recollection of the rifle being present upon the body at that stage?
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Members of the raid team say thy found Sheila's body on the bedroom floor with the rifle atop it and the barrel pointing in the direction of her chin...
Well Mike there sure is something amiss here. The raid team say (in all their statements) that the rifle was "on her body". But Bob Miller's notebook says the gun was "on her right side". I don't know about you Mike. But the notebook of Miller were notes from the actual time he went into the crime scene. The raid team statements were made up afterwards. I am only quoting what I have read. The statements were drawn up afterwards, after a conflab in the incident room. I know what I would believe and Iam not twisting evidence to suit my own theory here. The other notes I quoted were also "ironed out" in the official account. But there again I quoted actual SOC notes. We have no right to explain them away because they don't fit in with our own strained explanations just because we think JB is guilty.
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I have never seen his explanation? But what I will contend with is that they "made a mistake". That is a very easy thing to say. But any kind of explanation still leave that unanswered. They may be able to explain away the "mistake" of seeing two bodies through the window (although the position of Ralph's chair would have made him very easy to see through the window) and then to repeat the same "mistake" when they reported one dead male and one dead female when they actually entered the property. (I do not agree that this was just a reiteration of the former message of what they saw through the window. That is very hard to believe and seems to be a very forced interpretation of what happened?)
But they cannot explain away the fact that they also reported three more bodies upstairs. It cannot be a mistake and I cannot accept that as an explanation.
True grahame. It is clear what they said. Unfortunately interested parties can argue differently. The curse of this casr.
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True grahame. It is clear what they said. Unfortunately interested parties can argue differently. The curse of this casr.
Well whatever they argue Maggie, they cannot deny that there are contradictions here and we all know what happens when people discuss contradictions. They "explain them away". I haven't don't that. What I have done is to highlight them plain and simple. I for one am not out to "hoodwink" people. These are factual off the cuff notes made by officers present, as they were present. They were not "harmonised" in some after meeting, which is what I personally suspect happened.
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Fair play to him for coming up with an explanation. It did not ring true for me and I certainly would not sticky it. I suppose it could be stickied as 'Hartley's explanation' :)
It didn't ring true for me either.
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Unfortunately not Maggie, Mike wants to persuade people that something other than the 'official' chain of events occured, he has failed, because as you rightly state, it's all suposition based on not a lot.
If that's not the case and he has some sort of concrete proof, such as a phone bill or a photograph of Sheila on the bed, then, and I'm sure I speak for the whole forum here (both sides), let's see it please. I'm sure Jeremy wouldn't mind a copy also.
Until that happens (which I don't believe ever could) we'll just have the same old arguments. The above argument for example, has played itself out, between Mike and I, about five or six times over the last year or so, each time identical to the last.
You don't speak for me, Hartley
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You don't speak for me, Hartley
Yes it is mainley suposition.Your arguments are certanly that. I think Mike has the truth on his side. That does not make me stupid but it does show I can think.
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You don't speak for me, Hartley
I'd suggest that you are in the minority then, I get the feeling everybody else on here would like to see concrete evidence of Jeremys guilt or innocence, either way.
Oh I see, you're just trying another little antagonistic dig at me, have you not learnt anything. :-\ GROW UP! ::)
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I have never seen his explanation? But what I will contend with is that they "made a mistake". That is a very easy thing to say. But any kind of explanation still leave that unanswered. They may be able to explain away the "mistake" of seeing two bodies through the window (although the position of Ralph's chair would have made him very easy to see through the window) and then to repeat the same "mistake" when they reported one dead male and one dead female when they actually entered the property. (I do not agree that this was just a reiteration of the former message of what they saw through the window. That is very hard to believe and seems to be a very forced interpretation of what happened?)
But they cannot explain away the fact that they also reported three more bodies upstairs. It cannot be a mistake and I cannot accept that as an explanation.
I'm not going to try to repeat Hartley's explanation, but you seem to have the gist of it anyway. One point, yes Neville's body would have been easy to see through the window, but they would have been seeing him from behind and slightly to his right. He was slumped forward (away from them) with his hair obscuring his face.
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Mike - dumb question, I'm sure, but what was the motive for the police moving her body from the bed to the floor?
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I'm not going to try to repeat Hartley's explanation, but you seem to have the gist of it anyway. One point, yes Neville's body would have been easy to see through the window, but they would have been seeing him from behind and slightly to his right. He was slumped forward (away from them) with his hair obscuring his face.
Yes I get that Bridget. But to mistake him for two people? ???
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Yes I get that Bridget. But to mistake him for two people? ???
They didn't. They mistook him for a woman when they looked through the window and reported that. When they went in they found they had made a mistake and reported one dead male (can't recall whether the same officer made both reports but H will). Control misinterpreted that as two bodies, one female, one male. they never reported 3 further bodies upstairs, they reported 5 in total, and control did the maths based on their earlier misinterpretation.
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They didn't. They mistook him for a woman when they looked through the window and reported that. When they went in they found they had made a mistake and reported one dead male (can't recall whether the same officer made both reports but H will). Control misinterpreted that as two bodies, one female, one male. they never reported 3 further bodies upstairs, they reported 5 in total, and control did the maths based on their earlier misinterpretation.
I'm sure I read that in the raid team notes somewhere on the forum? I'll see if I can search them out. It would be good to know exactly what was said.
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I have never seen his explanation?
Just if you ever were interested, then see below:
There are two logs which have been produced and are available on this forum. In addition to that there are various other notes and statements.
The chain of communication is as follows:
1. Somebody informed CA07 of 1 dead male and one dead female. I do not know who informed them but I am suggesting that it was Adams who got it from the firearms team.
2. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them about "1 dead male, 1 dead female". The information room (Igor Norman) noted on the information rooms log "1 dead male, 1 dead female", he noted this on the front page of the log and in the table together with the corresponding time.
3. The information room contacted PC West and informed him of "1 dead male, 1 dead female", PC West noted this in his log.
4. Somebody contacted CA07 and told them that all 5 people were found dead. Again I don't know who contacted them but I am suggesting it was Adams.
5. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them that five bodies had been found, the information room noted on their log "all 5 persons found - DEAD".
6. The information room contacted PC West to inform him that five bodies had been found dead.
7. PC West noted on his log "now confirmed a further 3 bodies found - five dead in total".
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The logs can be found in this thread which corroborates what I have written above: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,732.msg19630.html#msg19630
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Now my first observation that the "1 dead male, 1 dead female" came from a single source. If I am right about Adams informing CA07 then it came from the firearms unit, to Adams, to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.
My second observation is that the "3 further bodies" is only recorded once by PC West and nobody else. The information regarding the rest of the bodies came from the firearms team, to Adams (if I am correct as previously mentioned), to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.
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MY OPINION AND THEORY: (which has changed slightly to what I have previously given).
In my opinion Collins saw Ralph through the kitchen window and mistook him for a female, he radioed in to Adams. The firearms unit entered the house and found Ralph's body, the firearms unit radioed it in to Adams.
Adams then, thinking that 1 dead male and one dead female had been found, radioed in to CA07 (1 dead male was first because that was fresher in his mind, being the last communication), CA07 radioed it in to the information room who in turn radioed it in to PC West. Now at this stage in actual fact only one body had been found.
The firearms team then eventually went upstairs and discovered the other four bodies, they radioed this in to Adams, Adams informed CA07 and CA07 informed the information room. The information room noted that five bodies were found.
The information room radioed PC West and told him about the five bodies, PC West mistakenly noted that a further three bodies were found rather than there were five as he thought that two had previously been found when they had not.
... ..........................................................................
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Just if you ever were interested, then see below:
There are two logs which have been produced and are available on this forum. In addition to that there are various other notes and statements.
The chain of communication is as follows:
1. Somebody informed CA07 of 1 dead male and one dead female. I do not know who informed them but I am suggesting that it was Adams who got it from the firearms team.
2. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them about "1 dead male, 1 dead female". The information room (Igor Norman) noted on the information rooms log "1 dead male, 1 dead female", he noted this on the front page of the log and in the table together with the corresponding time.
3. The information room contacted PC West and informed him of "1 dead male, 1 dead female", PC West noted this in his log.
4. Somebody contacted CA07 and told them that all 5 people were found dead. Again I don't know who contacted them but I am suggesting it was Adams.
5. CA07 contacted the information room and informed them that five bodies had been found, the information room noted on their log "all 5 persons found - DEAD".
6. The information room contacted PC West to inform him that five bodies had been found dead.
7. PC West noted on his log "now confirmed a further 3 bodies found - five dead in total".
... ..........................................................
The logs can be found in this thread which corroborates what I have written above: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,732.msg19630.html#msg19630
... ............................................................
Now my first observation that the "1 dead male, 1 dead female" came from a single source. If I am right about Adams informing CA07 then it came from the firearms unit, to Adams, to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.
My second observation is that the "3 further bodies" is only recorded once by PC West and nobody else. The information regarding the rest of the bodies came from the firearms team, to Adams (if I am correct as previously mentioned), to CA07, to the information room and then to PC West.
... .......................................................
MY OPINION AND THEORY: (which has changed slightly to what I have previously given).
In my opinion Collins saw Ralph through the kitchen window and mistook him for a female, he radioed in to Adams. The firearms unit entered the house and found Ralph's body, the firearms unit radioed it in to Adams.
Adams then, thinking that 1 dead male and one dead female had been found, radioed in to CA07 (1 dead male was first because that was fresher in his mind, being the last communication), CA07 radioed it in to the information room who in turn radioed it in to PC West. Now at this stage in actual fact only one body had been found.
The firearms team then eventually went upstairs and discovered the other four bodies, they radioed this in to Adams, Adams informed CA07 and CA07 informed the information room. The information room noted that five bodies were found.
The information room radioed PC West and told him about the five bodies, PC West mistakenly noted that a further three bodies were found rather than there were five as he thought that two had previously been found when they had not.
... ..........................................................................
You have asked for the official notes substantiating that Mercer's dog was a sniffer dog. That's a fair request.
Where is hard the evidence - documented acknowledgement of these errors - to substantiate your theory? If you can find any such official documents, then let's see them please
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You have asked for the official notes substantiating that Mercer's dog was a sniffer dog. That's a fair request.
Where is hard the evidence - documented acknowledgement of these errors - to substantiate your theory? If you can find any such official documents, then let's see them please
The clue is in the words "MY OPINION AND THEORY".
I'm not presenting this as fact. ::) Where I have referred to a document(s), I have provided you with a link to a location where you can view them.
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The clue is in the words "MY OPINION AND THEORY".
I'm not presenting this as fact. ::) Where I have referred to a document(s), I have provided you with a link to a location where you can view them.
Thank you for clarifying this once again. My opinion and theory is that it is most unlikely that huge Nevill, at 6'4" tall and with his pyjama trousers pulled to his knees would have been mistaken for a female.
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Thank you for clarifying this once again. My opinion and theory is that it is most unlikely that huge Nevill, at 6'4" tall and with his pyjama trousers pulled to his knees would have been mistaken for a female.
Oh okay then, I'm glad you got that of your chest, thanks. ???
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The clue is in the words "MY OPINION AND THEORY".
I'm not presenting this as fact. ::) Where I have referred to a document(s), I have provided you with a link to a location where you can view them.
Thank you for paraphasing the notes Hartley. I accept your theory for what it is.
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Surely, somebody should be able to make a molehill out of a mountain now that they have this to work on?
Your wasting your time with the " no marks where the rifle was/wasn't in my opinion. The photo seems to show a shadow on the left knee/calf that may be what you could describe as a mark left by the rifle.
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Nevill's call to police look carefully at this because it is a 999 call.
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Nevill's call to police look carefully at this because it is a 999 call.
Is this a wind up? ???
What is it that you seem to think this attachment is Patti?
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Hi Patti please tell me what I have to look at :) :) :)
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Is this a wind up? ???
What is it that you seem to think this attachment is Patti?
Don't be so rude, Hartley, Patti is as entitled to express her views here as you are.
This habit of yours of sneering at women needs to stop.
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Your wasting your time with the " no marks where the rifle was/wasn't in my opinion. The photo seems to show a shadow on the left knee/calf that may be what you could describe as a mark left by the rifle.
Tony, I agree. Even if there was only a mole there, it would seem to fit with the CCRC's approach to this case, that a mole would be sufficient to dismiss such grounds.
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Don't be so rude, Hartley, Patti is as entitled to express her views here as you are.
This habit of yours of sneering at women needs to stop.
Go away Keira and stop trying to cause trouble, I've replied to Patti, asking if she is making a joke, I'm not being rude at all.
You are no longer a moderator so please leave me alone.
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If Police officers had make a mistake regarding two bodies in the kitchen,and upon entry had realised there was,in fact,only one body,then how can it be explained "one murder,one suicide" ?
How could Nevills body possibly be mistaken as a suicide?
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Go away Keira and stop trying to cause trouble, I've replied to Patti, asking if she is making a joke, I'm not being rude at all.
Your are no longer a moderator so please leave me alone.
I do not have to be a mod to object to the way you sneer at too many members here, females in particular.
Time this stopped, Hartley
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Nevill's call to police look carefully at this because it is a 999 call.
I have looked carefully as requested and can see nothing at all that shows this to be a record of a 999 call. I'd happily stand corrected.
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I have looked carefully as requested and can see nothing at all that shows this to be a record of a 999 call. I'd happily stand corrected.
Me too.The "999" has not been circled,which suggests to me that it was not an emergency call?
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I do not have to be a mod to object to the way you sneer at too many members here, females in particular.
Time this stopped, Hartley
Whatever Keira. ::)
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Is this a wind up? ???
What is it that you seem to think this attachment is Patti?
Hi Hartley
I'm not sure.....I thought it was a 999 call but apparently not....so I had best calm done. It is clearly circled as being an exchange line....what ever that would mean, I haven't got a clue...
I suppose I am a tad messy with my thoughts, but they do drive you wild....hahahahah
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Hi Patti please tell me what I have to look at :) :) :)
Only you can't see it Susan...No worries, because I have gotten it wrong. Back to paper work for me... :) :)
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Don't be so rude, Hartley, Patti is as entitled to express her views here as you are.
This habit of yours of sneering at women needs to stop.
Hi Kiera no worries, I am fine with Hartley and I am not offended by him... :)
Love your information about the Bamber tree.....excellent work... :) :)
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Hi Hartley
I'm not sure.....I thought it was a 999 call but apparently not....so I had best calm done. It is clearly circled as being an exchange line....what ever that would mean, I haven't got a clue...
I suppose I am a tad messy with my thoughts, but they do drive you wild....hahahahah
Don't worry Patti, I'm not sure what Keiras issues are, and quite frankly I don't care.
The reason I asked if this was a wind up, is because Mike has in the past attempted to pass this off as a record of a call from Nevill to the police. In actual fact the sender '1990' is PC Wests collar number, it's a log of a call from West to Bonnett.
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I have looked carefully as requested and can see nothing at all that shows this to be a record of a 999 call. I'd happily stand corrected.
Hi elphick I'm having a bad day....ignore me..... 8)
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Hi Kiera no worries, I am fine with Hartley and I am not offended by him... :)
I hope he stops and thinks next time he's tempted to sneer
Love your information about the Bamber tree.....excellent work... :) :)
Thanks, Patti. I have one for the Nevills and other sides of the family.
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Hi Patti the fact I can,t see it means in my eyes you did not get it wrong. :) ;) :D
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He might think twice next time he's tempted to sneer ;D
The only person sneering and making a fool out of yourself is you. As I said, I'm not sure what your problem is.
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Tony, I agree. Even if there was only a mole there, it would seem to fit with the CCRC's approach to this case, that a mole would be sufficient to dismiss such grounds.
Agreed. You'd need a secondary report that states no marks,such as autopsy(?) which catagorically states there are no marks on the legs, as opposed to a report that doesn't state there are marks, if you see where I'm coming from.
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Can we please draw a line under this forum spat. It is detracting from the discussion on this thread. If it continues I will have to split this thread.
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Please don't argue guys....As from Monday of next week, you will see less of me, I am returning back to work after a long period of sickness....And, it is mainly due to this forum that I am now much more composed about things...
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Please!
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Agreed. You'd need a secondary report that states no marks,such as autopsy(?) which catagorically states there are no marks on the legs, as opposed to a report that doesn't state there are marks, if you see where I'm coming from.
Or high resolution lab blow ups, such as now in the hands of the defence?
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Please don't argue guys....As from Monday of next week, you will see less of me, I am returning back to work after a long period of sickness....And, it is mainly due to this forum that I am now much more composed about things...
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Please!
Well said Patti. I hope you are now fully recovered.
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Or high resolution lab blow ups, such as now in the hands of the defence?
I'm not sure that would be enough Rochy.
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Hi Keira, I would be very interested in seeing that...I have just looked on the old Bailey sight lolol
It's worth a look to find things out from the past.
All I have is the 1911 census of Eric G Jay...with father and mother.
went back to 1841 but saw nothing.....of what I was looking for. Aren't we nosey? :) :) :) :)
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Agreed. You'd need a secondary report that states no marks,such as autopsy(?) which catagorically states there are no marks on the legs, as opposed to a report that doesn't state there are marks, if you see where I'm coming from.
Sorry to butt in, but why would there be marks anyway?
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Hi Patti Sorry we shall be hearing from you less and I am glad you are recovering from your illness also glad to hear the forum has helped you maybe you thought "get me out of here" and made a quicker recovery :) :) :)
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Sorry to butt in, but why would there be marks anyway?
Exactly.
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Please don't argue guys....As from Monday of next week, you will see less of me, I am returning back to work after a long period of sickness....And, it is mainly due to this forum that I am now much more composed about things...
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Please!
Well I'm glad to hear you're better, but sorry to hear we'll be seeing less of you. :/
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Thank you guys.... :) :) :) :)
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What marks are we on about? Shelia's legs? :)
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Sorry to butt in, but why would there be marks anyway?
I wondered that also. What came to mind was the scene from the MWT docu, where Boyce balances the Anschutz across his palms. I'm guessing that body lain for hours might have impression marks of whatever object may be upon it.
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I wondered that also. What came to mind was the scene from the MWT docu, where Boyce balances the Anschutz across his palms. I'm guessing that body lain for hours might have impression marks of whatever object may be upon it.
That would be a new one on me.
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I wondered that also. What came to mind was the scene from the MWT docu, where Boyce balances the Anschutz across his palms. I'm guessing that body lain for hours might have impression marks of whatever object may be upon it.
But it is here written also,the rifle was found at the side of SC? Therefore if that's the case it wouldn't of made a mark. There is a lot of contradictory "evidence" about where the rifle was (or not) found so I would imagine the prosecution would not be to troubled by " no marks " IMO.
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Sorry to butt in, but why would there be marks anyway?
I think it was because Mike mentioned that there were no marks on Sheila's thighs where the gun was resting?
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I think it was because Mike mentioned that there were no marks on Sheila's thighs where the gun was resting?
Yes, but why would there be marks?
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Yes, but why would there be marks?
I don't know I didn't really thought it was relevent. So I just scanned over it.
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Yes, but why would there be marks?
If I understand it correctly, MT believes if JB had of layed the rifle on the dead body of SC then the contact marks, rifle to body, would of left marks / bruises etc. I think someone with pathology experience would be usefull to have on call.( the rifle having lain on a dead body for 5 ish hours)
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Please don't argue guys....As from Monday of next week, you will see less of me, I am returning back to work after a long period of sickness....And, it is mainly due to this forum that I am now much more composed about things...
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Please!
Glad to hear you're better, Patti. Good luck on Monday.
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Please visit following link address for relevant information as to why there would be, should be visible marks on Sheila's legs and thighs if the rifle was laid upon the body as a result of Jeremy, or anybody else for that matter, killing Sheila on the bedroom floor before 4am, and the rifle be resting atop the body as shown in the crime scene photographs, in keeping with the testimony and contents of raid team members witness statements which deal with the position of the rifle on the body when police entered the premises and they say they found Sheila's body ion the bedroom floor? If rifle had been on the body for over six hours marks would be present upon her legs/thighs and the rest of her body where the rifle had been resting / laying - but there are none:-
(1) - http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=116l
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Relevant facts being:-
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If the rifle had been laying upon or atop Sheila's body for a considerable length of time as shown in the crime scene photographs which coincides with the description of how members of the raid team portrayed the finding of Sheila's body on the bedroom floor with the rifle atop it, there would undoubtedly have been marks left on relevant areas of the body considering that the said rifle would have had to have been resting upon Sheila's body for a minimum of six hours before PC Bird took the relevant photographs, and some four hours before the raid team supposedly stumbled upon Sheila's body with the rifle atop it when they found it in the bedroom on the bedroom floor - such marks are not visible in any of the photographs, nor in any of the post mortem photographs taken of Sheila's body. This is direct evidence that police stage managed Sheila's body by planting the rifle upon her body in different positions whilst it was on the bedroom floor...
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Police placed the rifle on the body in different positions, and then removed the rifle so that it was not resting on the body for any great length of time, or period, hence why there are no visible corresponding marks upon her legs, thighs or any other part of her body. The weight of the rifle on the body would have exerted sufficient pressure to create marks which fall into the HYPOSTASIS category..
Lets say that but for the police being responsible for moving the guns barrel so that it was / is resting directly against Sheila's neck / throat (in the following image taken by PC Bird during the stage managing process) the pressure of the guns barrel against or upon Sheila's neck, would leave a distinctive mark there, where none exists because police rested the guns barrel there against the left side of the neck on a temporary basis whilst taking photographs for the investigation...
Well...
the weight of the rifle resting anywhere on the body for any lengthy of time, say for between 4 to 7 hours, without being disturbed would almost certainly have left such marks on the relevant parts of the body, and the point I am making is that no such marks exist or are visible on those areas of the body, because police stage managed Sheila's body, it was not stage managed by Jeremy or any other as yet unidentified killer, and the rifle did not fall into that position upon the body if Sheila took her own life. What we are dealing with here, is wholesale stage managing of a body at the crime scene, where the police put the rifle on the victims body and then took a series of crime scene photographs which were later shown to members of the raid team at a de-brief held at Witham police station that same night, and members of the raid team were told to write up their reports as though they found the body in the position shown in PC Bird's stage managed pictures...
Now, the matter does not end there, because it was these very same stage managed photographs which were taken by PC Bird, which were used during the trial as part of the prosecutions case, to persuade the jury that Jeremy had stage managed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor after he killed her and the others, with a view to fooling the police into thinking that Sheila had taken her on life, when all along the photographs actually depict what the police had been responsible for doing (stage managing the scene to make it look like she had shot herself twice with use of a semi-automatic rifle)?
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Police stage managed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor...
With what motive?
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Please visit following link address for relevant information as to why there would be, should be visible marks on Sheila's legs and thighs if the rifle was laid upon the body as a result of Jeremy, or anybody else for that matter, killing Sheila on the bedroom floor before 4am, and the rifle be resting atop the body as shown in the crime scene photographs, in keeping with the testimony and contents of raid team members witness statements which deal with the position of the rifle on the body when police entered the premises and they say they found Sheila's body ion the bedroom floor? If rifle had been on the body for over six hours marks would be present upon her legs/thighs and the rest of her body where the rifle had been resting / laying - but there are none:-
(1) - http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=116l
Mike that is very interesting indeed. But I would hardly think a rifle weighing approx 8lbs would cause any bruising at all, because the weight is equalled out. However, this is very good what you have posted, and I need to digest it. There is one paragraph I am extremely interested in.....which is the one below the one you have posted...:)
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Relevant facts being:-
Problem.
The information is for a body lying on their back and subsequent marks on back of neck,scalp wrist etc.Surley the blood will fill capillaries via gravity and leave capillaries on top,empty of blood?
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I have been present on 2 post mortems the 2nd i washed the slab and washed the inspection tables, i think there was a female on the 2nd one, this was a long time ago, i do know womens skin is very delicate and even more so after death, so i dont really know, some of the police officers may have not relised this.
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I don't need convincing the rifle has been moved between photos, I'm pretty happy about that. The only reason I'm happy about that is the excellent superimposed picture that mike posted showing beyond doubt that the rifle has been moved.
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Weight of rifle on various parts of Sheila's body would have left marks there on those relevant parts of her body where the rifle had been resting over a period of several hours, if it had been resting there for any length of time, but no such marks exist or are present because police planted the rifle on the body for the purpose of PC Bird taking pictures after police stage managed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor with the rifle upon the body, to make out a false case that she could somehow have shot herself twice with the semi-automatic rifle;-
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Not only that, but rigor mortis had clearly not yet set in, because the police were able to move and shift the angle of Sheila's right arm and reshape the position of her fingers upon the repositioned rifle during the stage managing stage, which would not have been possible if Sheila had already been dead for over six hours (in my opinion) as depicted by reference to the following images:-
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The images also clearly show that Sheilas limbs are not immobile.
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I do not take too kindly to anyone trying to take the piss by insulting my intelligence where as in this matter, there is clearly no visible preence of HYPOSTASIS anywhere at all on Sheila's legs which is puzzling since if Jeremy killed Sheila and stage managed her body on the bedroom floor as claimed by the prosecutions case, and that Sheila's body had been in that position 9undisturbed) for over six to seven hours, her legs would not be that colour, there would undoubtedly be significant discoloration of the skin, which I am afraid to say is absent in these images...
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There is absolutely no discoloration of the skin at all, to support the claim that Sheila had been dead already some six to seven hours by the time PC Bird took these photographs - no wonder Essex police deliberately withheld over 358 of them...
No wonder PC Bird created a false MASTER COPY ALBUM SCHEDULE (containing only 223 pictures) to try and conceal the existence of all 581 photographs taken in connection with this investigation...
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There should have been corresponding marks on the relevant parts of Sheila's body (Vibices) where the weight of the rifle had been resting if it had been resting there undisturbed for six to seven hours...
Yet, none exist...
Absence of the same supports the fact that police stage managed Sheila's body on the floor, by placing the rifle in different positions upon or atop the body...
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Jeremy Bamber was therefore framed for these murders by the police, who used stage managed images of Sheila's body on the bedroom floor with the rifle atop it, to deliberately mislead and fool the jury into accepting that Jeremy had done the very things which the police are responsible for doing themselves...
Police stage managed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, not Jeremy, or any as yet unidentified killer, and they stage managed it with the semi-automatic rifle upon the body because they came to the conclusion that both shots could have been fired by a process of recoil, using a semi-automatic weapon...
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There should have been corresponding marks on the relevant parts of Sheila's body (Vibices) where the weight of the rifle had been resting if it had been resting there undisturbed for six to seven hours...
Yet, none exist...
Absence of the same supports the fact that police stage managed Sheila's body on the floor, by placing the rifle in different positions upon or atop the body...
I can't see anything in the article you linked to which suggests that a rifle lain across a body for a few hours would leave marks.
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I can't see anything in the article you linked to which suggests that a rifle lain across a body for a few hours would leave marks.
In the normal course of events, the pale areas of the body which are in contact with the ground are produce by compression, a similar phenomena occurs when objects end up on top of a body, areas of the skin where objects have been resting for several hours after death occurs, are created by compression that produces areas of pale skin which come into contact with such objects...
I refer to those areas of pale skin as marks, which are conspicuously absent from the relevant patts of Sheila Caffells body, paryicularly in those areas where the rifle was photographed and resting agalnst or upon...
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In the normal course of events, the pale areas of the body which are in contact with the ground are produce by compression, a similar phenomena occurs when objects end up on top of a body, areas of the skin where objects have been resting for several hours after death occurs, are created by compression that produces areas of pale skin which come into contact with such objects...
I refer to those areas of pale skin as marks, which are conspicuously absent from the relevant patts of Sheila Caffells body, paryicularly in those areas where the rifle was photographed and resting agalnst or upon...
Therein lies another problem.the weigh of the rifle,is it heavy enough to leave the marks you suggest. There are going to be many variables,one obvious one being the physical build of SC. as for rigor mortis and immovable joints I believe this was a thread subject a few months ago and the mobility of limbs is quite possible after a 6 / 7 hour time period.skin discolouration I don't know,I haven't doe any research.
In this thread there is a lot of assumption. It has to be backed up by proof. A little snippet out of a website downloaded cannot be regarded as fact,wouldn't you agree?
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Therein lies another problem.the weigh of the rifle,is it heavy enough to leave the marks you suggest. There are going to be many variables,one obvious one being the physical build of SC. as for rigor mortis and immovable joints I believe this was a thread subject a few months ago and the mobility of limbs is quite possible after a 6 / 7 hour time period.skin discolouration I don't know,I haven't doe any research.
In this thread there is a lot of assumption. It has to be backed up by proof. A little snippet out of a website downloaded cannot be regarded as fact,wouldn't you agree?
According to you then, once Sheila was dead, once her heart stopped beating, and her body ended up on its back, either on the kitchen floor, or the bed, or the bedtoom floor, you are saying or suggesting that her blood did not drain off to the lowest parts of her body? That is effectively what you are saying, and that is what you are asking members of the forum to believe. So, l think you are basically trying to suggest that for one reason or another, there could not be, or there was not any possibility of Sheila's skin being discoloured even though Sheila would have had to have been already detd for up to seven hours or more?
You are advocating that 'hypostasis' did not apply in the circumstances of her death?
You are trying to hoodwink members of this rforum into accepting that there might not be any physical evidence associated with discoloration of skin linked to the timing of Sheila's death...
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According to you then, once Sheila was dead, once her heart stopped beating, and her body ended up on its back, either on the kitchen floor, or the bed, or the bedtoom floor, you are saying or suggesting that her blood did not drain off to the lowest parts of her body? That is effectively what you are saying, and that is what you are asking members of the forum to believe. So, l think you are basically trying to suggest that for one reason or another, there could not be, or there was not any possibility of Sheila's skin being discoloured even though Sheila would have had to have been already dead for up to seven hours or more?
You are advocating that 'hypostasis' did not apply in the circumstances of her death?
You are trying to hoodwink members of yhis forum into accepting that there might not be any physical evidence associated with discoloration of skin linked to the timing of Sheila's death...
I thought the blood drains to the lowest parts of a body causing darkening in the lower parts i.e. the parts in contact with the ground, and the upper surfaces become paler due to the blood draining from these areas.
Sheila appears to adhere to this, it's just that you don't have images of the lower parts of her body in contact with the ground.
That's how I understood it anyway.
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I thought the blood drains to the lowest parts of a body causing darkening in the lower parts i.e. the parts in contact with the ground, and the upper surfaces become paler due to the blood draining from these areas.
Sheila appears to adhere to this, it's just that you don't have images of the lower parts of her body in contact with the ground.
That's how I understood it anyway.
I think it is impossible to tell from the photos Hartley.
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I think it is impossible to tell from the photos Hartley.
Yes that's what I was trying to say, in a round about way. I agree with you.
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I thought the blood drains to the lowest parts of a body causing darkening in the lower parts i.e. the parts in contact with the ground, and the upper surfaces become paler due to the blood draining from these areas.
Sheila appears to adhere to this, it's just that you don't have images of the lower parts of her body in contact with the ground.
That's how I understood it anyway.
Just goes to show how wrong you were, are...
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You are trying to hoodwink members of this rforum into accepting that there might not be any physical evidence associated with discoloration of skin linked to the timing of Sheila's death...
Tell us more about trying to hoodwink members of the forum Mike...
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It's usual to take a rectal temperature to determine the time of death. A GP would normally do this.
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Just goes to show how wrong you were, are...
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm happy for you to provide some sort of evidence to the contrary.
Although before you do, did you get a chance to have a look at the requests for Bewes, Saxbys, Myalls and Collins statements? As they were the first police officers to the scene and Collins was the first to see a victim before entering the house, then members of the forum would be absolutely fascinated to see them I am sure. It's strange that you haven't already posted them, given their pivotal roles in the case.
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Hello Mike, could you give a rough estimate of the numbers involved in this conspiracy?
Also what depts etc thanks
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According to you then, once Sheila was dead, once her heart stopped beating, and her body ended up on its back, either on the kitchen floor, or the bed, or the bedtoom floor, you are saying or suggesting that her blood did not drain off to the lowest parts of her body? That is effectively what you are saying, and that is what you are asking members of the forum to believe. So, l think you are basically trying to suggest that for one reason or another, there could not be, or there was not any possibility of Sheila's skin being discoloured even though Sheila would have had to have been already detd for up to seven hours or more?
You are advocating that 'hypostasis' did not apply in the circumstances of her death?
You are trying to hoodwink members of this rforum into accepting that there might not be any physical evidence associated with discoloration of skin linked to the timing of Sheila's death...
No
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Hello Mike, could you give a rough estimate of the numbers involved in this conspiracy?
Also what depts etc thanks
Yes, give me some time to draft up a reply...
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Hello Mike, could you give a rough estimate of the numbers involved in this conspiracy?
Also what depts etc thanks
I think you might be getting your forums mixed up?
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No
hypostasis condition is a different feature than rigor mortis...
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your being very selective with your statements
for instance, what is the pressure exerted by the said rifle when laid on a hard surface?
it may be negligable. it will depend on weight & profile of the object in question
as you may know,a stilleto heel will cause more damage to a floor than an elephant.
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hypostasis condition is a different feature than rigor mortis...
didnt say it wasnt
can see the confusion though mike
the RM reply was to #120
sorry for the confusion
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I think you might be getting your forums mixed up?
anyway
this thread is a total waste of everyones effort
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I still haven't seen an explanation as to why there would be marks on the upper sides of her legs caused by a rifle laying on them.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm happy for you to provide some sort of evidence to the contrary.
Although before you do, did you get a chance to have a look at the requests for Bewes, Saxbys, Myalls and Collins statements? As they were the first police officers to the scene and Collins was the first to see a victim before entering the house, then members of the forum would be absolutely fascinated to see them I am sure. It's strange that you haven't already posted them, given their pivotal roles in the case.
Did you find the wall / edge , which Bewes jumped behind ? As in the past you have said , what wall/edge , have you not ? As for posting statements , if you were to see one from Mercer , would it change your opinion , if he was to say his dog was trained to sniff gun residue etc ? And JB was free of it on the night in question , Or would you just say as you did with Jeapes statement , that she did not see what she claimed ? Do you read nothing into Jeapes statement being withheld for 20 years ? Could you give us all a possible explanation , why Jeapes statement was withheld along with the telephone logs , that JB had to go to court to obtain , now i appreciate you don't know for sure , as in your explanation for the logs , but can you give EP a get out again and tell us all a feasible reason ?
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anyway
this thread is a total waste of everyones effort
Why are you looking so hard for evidence the rifle wasnt on the body
ITS HERE !!!!
Quote from: tonyb on April 29, 2012, 06:19:PM
Mike,my brother works at intel in Seattle. he'll know someone in the uk that will assist you.
Towards the back end of 2003 and the beginning of 2004, the relationship between Jeremy and self was somewhat strained because I was in regular communication with Ewen Smith and Jeremy wanted to be in control of everything himself. This resulted in me copying every letter and document I sent to Jeremy by using a scanner and I saved everything on the computer I was using at the time. I copied everything, I sent and received from Jeremy, it is all on the old drive in one of my old computers, I have removed them and they are in storage. I was led to believe that I could purchase some sort of a lead which I could them connect to my current computer via USB and access all the material. Does anyone know what lead I need to purchase, and how much it will cost?
mikes got photograpic proof, its here in black and white
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Why are you looking so hard for evidence the rifle wasnt on the body
ITS HERE !!!!
Quote from: tonyb on April 29, 2012, 06:19:PM
Mike,my brother works at intel in Seattle. he'll know someone in the uk that will assist you.
Towards the back end of 2003 and the beginning of 2004, the relationship between Jeremy and self was somewhat strained because I was in regular communication with Ewen Smith and Jeremy wanted to be in control of everything himself. This resulted in me copying every letter and document I sent to Jeremy by using a scanner and I saved everything on the computer I was using at the time. I copied everything, I sent and received from Jeremy, it is all on the old drive in one of my old computers, I have removed them and they are in storage. I was led to believe that I could purchase some sort of a lead which I could them connect to my current computer via USB and access all the material. Does anyone know what lead I need to purchase, and how much it will cost?
mikes got photograpic proof, its here in black and white
the (very) elusive body on the bed picture.
proof beyond all doubt;
a, rifle on body
b, rifle not on body
c, mikes been economical with facts...
straw poll anyone?
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Did you find the wall / edge , which Bewes jumped behind ? As in the past you have said , what wall/edge , have you not ?
I didn't realise I was supposed to be looking, you seem to have an amazing memory for what I have said. ??? Good that you are paying attention. :P
I never did quite get to the bottom of whether they ducked behind a wall or hedge, I believe it was a hedge located approximately 40 yards to the South of WHF forming the boundary between the formal gardens and the fields. If we could see their statements then that may be a question that could be answered.
As for posting statements , if you were to see one from Mercer , would it change your opinion , if he was to say his dog was trained to sniff gun residue etc ? And JB was free of it on the night in question ,
I'd love to see Mercers statements if he made one, although I strongly suspect that he did not.
As far as commenting of it's possible contents, then I'm at a bit of a loss to understand what you want me to say. To be honest it sounds like one of your antagonistic questions where any answer I give you simply supplements and fuels further antagonistic leading questions, not immediately, but probably in twelve months time, just like your wall/hedge reference above. ???
Or would you just say as you did with Jeapes statement , that she did not see what she claimed ? Do you read nothing into Jeapes statement being withheld for 20 years ? Could you give us all a possible explanation , why Jeapes statement was withheld
Well I don't believe that is what I have previously said, but given your amazing recollection of my contributions then it certainly sounds possible.
Basically, Jeapes statement is a complete mess, the colour coding is wrong, we can't be sure what area of the house she is looking at and she says that she saw what 'might' be a rifle in the window. The exact same meaning could be inferred if she said she saw something which 'might not' be a rifle, basically she is unsure. There are no other accounts to back her up and so it's put down as an anomaly, if it was sufficient evidence for the defence to rely upon, then I'm sure that they would have done so.
As for why it was withheld, well I haven't seen any evidence that it was, but if it was, then I do not know, it's probably more the case that it wasn't used, rather than being deliberately withheld. But I am guessing.
along with the telephone logs , that JB had to go to court to obtain , now i appreciate you don't know for sure , as in your explanation for the logs , but can you give EP a get out again and tell us all a feasible reason ?
Again, and as you quite rightly indicate, no I do not know. But if they were withheld, then as much as you are surprised by that, then I am surprised that the original defence team didn't question their absence during the original trial.
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Hi Hartley
Do you agree that Jeapes statement should have been known to the defence? and, do you agree that she should have been examined and cross examined in court? Two for the price of one there :)
For if she states clearly she saw a gun at the window, then why on entering the building was there not a gun found in the window....This is a argument that could have been held in court....? :)
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Hi Hartley
Do you agree that Jeapes statement should have been known to the defence? and, do you agree that she should have been examined and cross examined in court? Two for the price of one there :)
For if she states clearly she saw a gun at the window, then why on entering the building was there not a gun found in the window....This is a argument that could have been held in court....? :)
Hi Patti,
As alluded to above, in the first instance, I do not know that her statement was withheld, however it certainly wasn't used by the prosecution as part of their case, so they ultimately didn't call Jeapes as a witness.
Could the defence have called Jeapes as a witness if they did have access to her statement, well yes, but unless she stated something which was not contained in her statement, then I'm not sure what help to the defence she would have been, it would be a strange situation, but the prosecution could then cross examine her and reduce any damage to their case that she may have caused.
If she clearly saw a gun in the window (which is very contentious), then in addition to it being in that same location when the firearms entered the house, you would expect to see reference to her informing her superiors of her sighting in the logs, due to the massive implications it would have on a raid team entering the premises. It may also need some explaining why, if it was a rifle, why she didn't see it move.
Jeapes statement is here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1387.0.html
The window that she saw 'what appeared' to be a rifle leaning against, is without doubt the master bedroom, the same window that is shown in the photograph below.
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that she did indeed see a rifle, the exact same rifle in the photograph below, however it was not before the raid team entered, it was afterwards and after the rifle had been removed by a police officer.
I'm beginning to think this goes a long way to undermine Mikes suggestion that that Sheila and the rifle were downstairs.
(There's a better image somewhere)
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Hi Patti,
As alluded to above, in the first instance, I do not know that her statement was withheld, however it certainly wasn't used by the prosecution as part of their case, so they ultimately didn't call Jeapes as a witness.
Could the defence have called Jeapes as a witness if they did have access to her statement, well yes, but unless she stated something which was not contained in her statement, then I'm not sure what help to the defence she would have been, it would be a strange situation, but the prosecution could then cross examine her and reduce any damage to their case that she may have caused.
If she clearly saw a gun in the window (which is very contentious), then in addition to it being in that same location when the firearms entered the house, you would expect to see reference to her informing her superiors of her sighting in the logs, due to the massive implications it would have on a raid team entering the premises. It may also need some explaining why, if it was a rifle, why she didn't see it move.
Jeapes statement is here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1387.0.html
The window that she saw 'what appeared' to be a rifle leaning against, is without doubt the master bedroom, the same window that is shown in the photograph below.
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that she did indeed see a rifle, the exact same rifle in the photograph below, however it was not before the raid team entered, it was afterwards and after the rifle had been removed by a police officer.
I'm beginning to think this goes a long way to undermine Mikes suggestion that that Sheila and the rifle were downstairs.
(There's a better image somewhere)
Hi Hartley, OK the PCS did not use her statement then; then we are unsure it was looked at by the defence? Yes!
She was a trained officer....it may be possible that she did alert another colleague at the time, but we have no evidence of that, because that log could either be withheld or not looked upon as being that important at the time.
If the such evidence had been presented in court; I am sure likewise the defence team would have had a field with it.....as would the CPS.
I disagree Hartley, that she saw that gun in the main bedroom, she had the barn behind her....She could see the kitchen light on downstairs...and she describes the grey clad brick to the right of the kitchen....this to me looks like the Box Room according to Mike's picture in the archives, but that room was in darkness, or was it? So yes, one can't understand that she had seen a gun placed at the window if it was dark. However, in one of the other rad team statement, he also claims to have seen a gun in a room upstairs apart from the one that was on Sheila......I will fish that out for you.
There is some confusion to where she alledges to have seen this rifle. :) I don't think it was after the murders Hartley...she was with three others...who then entered the house. :)
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Hi Hartley, OK the PCS did not use her statement then; then we are unsure it was looked at by the defence? Yes!
She was a trained officer....it may be possible that she did alert another colleague at the time, but we have no evidence of that, because that log could either be withheld or not looked upon as being that important at the time.
If the such evidence had been presented in court; I am sure likewise the defence team would have had a field with it.....as would the CPS.
I disagree Hartley, that she saw that gun in the main bedroom, she had the barn behind her....She could see the kitchen light on downstairs...and she describes the grey clad brick to the right of the kitchen....this to me looks like the Box Room according to Mike's picture in the archives, but that room was in darkness, or was it? So yes, one can't understand that she had seen a gun placed at the window if it was dark. However, in one of the other rad team statement, he also claims to have seen a gun in a room upstairs apart from the one that was on Sheila......I will fish that out for you.
There is some confusion to where she alledges to have seen this rifle. :) I don't think it was after the murders Hartley...she was with three others...who then entered the house. :)
I disagree, having read the statement again, and knowing the layout of the grounds extremely well, I believe she is referring the the master bedroom window, after the raid team had entered the house, discovered the bodies, removed the rifle from Sheila and lent it against the window.
I understand that you disagree, but I'm now quite convinced that the above is what happened.
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I think you might be getting your forums mixed up?
That statement is the exact reason it took me ages to actually join and post on here.
No, i havent got forums mixed. Please aim your paranoia elsewhere thankyou.
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I disagree, having read the statement again, and knowing the layout of the grounds extremely well, I believe she is referring the the master bedroom window, after the raid team had entered the house, discovered the bodies, removed the rifle from Sheila and lent it against the window.
I understand that you disagree, but I'm now quite convinced that the above is what happened.
Hi Hartley, sorry, I wasn't aware that you knew the place well...you must be local. The raid team had left well before that rifle was moved Hartley...I suppose it is one of things that we will never know unless we ask that person direct.....:) Thank you..
I'm forgetting it might have been light when she saw the gun... :P
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Patti how do I kill the aliens :) :) :)
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Let me go through it....
6:45 Jeaps arrives at the farm.
She takes her place at the corner of the barn, facing the a view to the right hand side of the premises. White/red side.
She then takes over from Smart, Collins and Delgardo and was a ware that 12 yards behind her to the right was Moule which is at the left hand side of the barn. She had changed her position...
She then states she saw the front door was shut....meaning the back door. to the right of that door there was a light on, which she believed to be the kitchen. From that position I on the first floor on the clad grey brick side of the building was what I believe to have been a gun.
After various radio messages she was told 5 dead.....she returns to her car, she chats to Jeremy on the way, and arrives at HQ at 9:30....
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
To me that is the box room......and it would have been light, so yes it is possible that she might have seen a gun...:) I'm really trying here....but NO RESPONSE.....lol
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Let me go through it....
6:45 Jeaps arrives at the farm.
She takes her place at the corner of the barn, facing the a view to the right hand side of the premises. White/red side.
She then takes over from Smart, Collins and Delgardo and was a ware that 12 yards behind her to the right was Moule which is at the left hand side of the barn. She had changed her position...
She then states she saw the front door was shut....meaning the back door. to the right of that door there was a light on, which she believed to be the kitchen. From that position I on the first floor on the clad grey brick side of the building was what I believe to have been a gun.
After various radio messages she was told 5 dead.....she returns to her car, she chats to Jeremy on the way, and arrives at HQ at 9:30....
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
To me that is the box room......and it would have been light, so yes it is possible that she might have seen a gun...:) I'm really trying here....but NO RESPONSE.....lol
Whichever room it was you have to wonder why the sighting of a rifle at a window during what could have been an armed seige didn't create one hell of a palava.
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Whichever room it was you have to wonder why the sighting of a rifle at a window during what could have been an armed seige didn't create one hell of a palava.
Hi Bridget, they were already in a palarva. :) She was a fire arms instructor, she would know a gun if she saw one....She may have alerted the others....one of the raid team officers also saw a gun in a room upstairs, this could have been the same gun and that is what I am trying to determine....but I keep being told it;s the main bedroom window that this gun was sighted in....when is it clear that she took the position form Collins, Smart and Delgardo, because they went towards the door to break it down....She couldn't have seen the front main bedroom....she was at the back...She was back at HQ for 9:30.....Am i crackers or what? lololol :)
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Just to advance discussions, this OS Plan may help:
Also the definitive RED/WHITE/BLACK/GREEN directions are as described by Adams I would suggest.
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It would have indicated it wasn't in use,Bridget.
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That statement is the exact reason it took me ages to actually join and post on here.
No, i havent got forums mixed. Please aim your paranoia elsewhere thankyou.
Maybe it's your preconceived ideas about what this forum is that need to be dropped? You're stuck in a time warp. It's May 2012, not May 2011.
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It would have indicated it wasn't in use,Bridget.
What wasn't?
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Adams "Colour Codes":
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Just to advance discussions, this OS Plan may help:
Also the definitive RED/WHITE/BLACK/GREEN directions are as described by Adams I would suggest.
Could you draw an X where you think Jeapes is? I can't see a barn from where she could have seen both white and red sides.
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Could you draw an X where you think Jeapes is? I can't see a barn from where she could have seen both white and red sides.
That's exactly my point, her statement doesn't make sense, at one point she's in the duck pond.
I'll reread and try to place an 'X'.
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Yes, I have her near the pond too. Have any outbuildings been demolished?
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Yes, I have her near the pond too. Have any outbuildings been demolished?
I don't believe so.
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She takes up two positions she tells you that.... :P
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Just to add, if she was anywhere near where I think she was, near the duck pond, the angle up to the window makes it extremely unlikely she would be able to see a rifle, unless the butt was on something and the whole thing raised. If the butt was on the floor the angle is too steep. IMHO.
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Just to add, if she was anywhere near where I think she was, near the duck pond, the angle up to the window makes it extremely unlikely she would be able to see a rifle, unless the butt was on something and the whole thing raised. If the butt was on the floor the angle is too steep. IMHO.
Vidvic, in more modern photos I can see a small out building near to the duck pond, could she have seen from there, if it was there? What is it?
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=7292;image)
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Actually looking at that she still wouldn't have been able to see red side, or a rifle.
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Could you draw an X where you think Jeapes is? I can't see a barn from where she could have seen both white and red sides.
Hi Bridget she wasn't at the White/red side, she moved to where Collins, Smart and Delgardo was....she tells you this....lol
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There is one almighty problem with the official statements made by members of the six man raid team which forced its way into the farmhouse at about 7.30am - they all adopted thier accounts to coincide with where PC Bird later photogrsphed the position and location of the bodies of the victims as shown once police tampered with the crime scene and after police stage managed the body of Sheila, and the others. In other words members of the raid team made false witness statements about where the bodies of the five vicyims were actually found upon entry to the farmhouse...
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Hi Bridget she wasn't at the White/red side, she moved to where Collins, Smart and Delgardo was....she tells you this....lol
Where does it say she moved? She describes her position and then goes on to say that she took over from the others, what makes you think she moved?
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There is one almighty problem with the official statements made by members of the six man raid team which forced its way into the farmhouse at about 7.30am - they all adopted thier accounts to coincide with where PC Bird later photogrsphed the position and location of the bodies of the victims as shown once police tampered with the crime scene and after police stage managed the body of Sheila, and the others. In other words members of the raid team made false witness statements about where the bodies of the five vicyims were actually found upon entry to the farmhouse...
Or he photographed them where the were actually found?
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Try this, if you can read the writing?
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You could have posted it the right way up!
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Lol. I'm looking at it on an iPhone and it keeps spinning! Lol.
I agree. That's where I think she was too.
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You could have posted it the right way up!
Sorry, it's now corrected. :-[
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Lol. I'm looking at it on an iPhone and it keeps spinning! Lol.
I agree. That's where I think she was too.
Me too. But there's a distinct lack of barn there.
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Me too. But there's a distinct lack of barn there.
I don't understand Moules position though. Covering 'GREEN' ??? But to Jeapes right?
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Where does it say she moved? She describes her position and then goes on to say that she took over from the others, what makes you think she moved?
Because she was no longer on the white/red side which was the corner of the barn....She moved and joined Collins....etc.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Because she was no longer on the white/red side which was the corner of the barn....She moved and joined Collins....etc.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
I read it as she took over their position, not that she moved to them.
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I don't understand Moules position though. Covering 'GREEN' ??? But to Jeapes right?
Yes Hartley he was to her right 12 yrds behind her which was the left hand side of the barn....She had moved form the White/red side (right side of the barn) to where Collins was positioned prior to entering the door to the left of the kitchen.....now do you see....lol If I am wrong I will say, but I now I am right on this....There is no way she could see the main bedroom form collins position....:)
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I read it as she took over their position, not that she moved to them.
So did I.
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Sorry Bridget, I missed your question. On the photo you posted, to the right of the pond, under the trees, is a raised white small barn and a shed like, summer house, which was Nevill's.
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I read it as she took over their position, not that she moved to them.
Hi Bridget, find out which position Collin's, Smart and Delgardo was and she was in that same position....which was not facing the main bedroom....can we at least agree on that?
Collin's enters the kitchen door...not the front door...:)
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Yes Hartley he was to her right 12 yrds behind her which was the left hand side of the barn....She had moved form the White/red side (right side of the barn) to where Collins was positioned prior to entering the door to the left of the kitchen.....now do you see....lol If I am wrong I will say, but I now I am right on this....There is no way she could see the main bedroom form collins position....:)
I think Collins was wherever her position was, and she replaced him so he and the others could go and enter the premises.
Sorry Bridget, I missed your question. On the photo you posted, to the right of the pond, under the trees, is a raised white small barn and a shed like, summer house, which was Nevill's.
Thanks Vic. Is this the thing that is described as a white shed in at least one of the statements?
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This is one of those times when sitting round a table with the map and statement would be good.
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I think Collins was wherever her position was, and she replaced him so he and the others could go and enter the premises.
Thanks Vic. Is this the thing that is described as a white shed in at least one of the statements?
Which was Bridget? :)
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Yes Bridget. Very unusual building and very old.
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This is one of those times when sitting round a table with the map and statement would be good.
Vic get the wine out I'm on my way.....hahahahah
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Hi Bridget, find out which position Collin's, Smart and Delgardo was and she was in that same position....which was not facing the main bedroom....can we at least agree on that?
Collin's enters the kitchen door...not the front door...:)
Yes but before he became a part of the raid team who entered through the kitchen door he was, according to Jeapes, at the containment position which she was later assigned to. She took over his position so that he could then go to the kitchen door. It was him that moved, not her - does that make sense?
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Which was Bridget? :)
Which was Bridget what? lol :)
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Which was Bridget? :)
According to Delgardo, 30 metres from the house.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1629.0.html
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Hi Bridget reading all the posting with interest but cannot join in as I am lost :) :) :)
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Hi Bridget reading all the posting with interest but cannot join in as I am lost :) :) :)
You're not the only one, I'm going to join Patti in a glass of vino or 3.
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According to Delgardo, 30 metres from the house.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1629.0.html
Collins statement is not on the forum, I'm not sure about Smarts, I can't locate it at the moment.
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Which was Bridget what? lol :)
You are being very naughty with me Bridget :P....You said yourself last night it was the box room. I have proof of that lololol
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Collins statement is not on the forum, I'm not sure about Smarts, I can't locate it at the moment.
I couldn't find them. I did find one for Delgado but it was an additional statement and we need the first one.
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You are being very naughty with me Bridget :P....You said yourself last night it was the box room. I have proof of that lololol
Yes, yes, I still think it was the box room - I just disagree with everything else you say ;D ;D
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Collins statement is not on the forum, I'm not sure about Smarts, I can't locate it at the moment.
We took up position at the kitchen side of the house 30 meters away.....therefore they could not have possibly seen the main bedroom window....Am I right? Or am I wrong? Please tell me....right or wrong...one word please...lololol
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Hi Bridget I could manage that then I would see the aliens :) :) :)
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In the past, I have been somewhat reluctant to post copies of the witness statements made in the name of various police officers, since the DPP hs admitted to editing these witness statements, and retyping them in the absence of the police officers concerned. You simply cannot believe what is being said in some of these so called witness statements, in my view and in the main, most of these statements are full of untruths...
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In the past, I have been somewhat reluctant to post copies of the witness statements made in the name of various police officers, since the DPP hs admitted to editing these witness statements, and retyping them in the absence of the police officers concerned. You simply cannot believe what is being said in some of these so called witness statements, in my view and in the main, most of these statements are full of untruths...
Maybe we could judge?
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In the past, I have been somewhat reluctant to post copies of the witness statements made in the name of various police officers, since the DPP hs admitted to editing these witness statements, and retyping them in the absence of the police officers concerned. You simply cannot believe what is being said in some of these so called witness statements, in my view and in the main, most of these statements are full of untruths...
Well I'm sure people can choose to take the plunge and come to their own conclusions after seeing them. The hypocrisy is when you then rely on the same statements to advance an argument theory.
The fact that the statement of the first officers to the scene are not posted, set's alarm bells off to me, I'd say they would be very much pivotal to the entire operation.
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We took up position at the kitchen side of the house 30 meters away.....therefore they could not have possibly seen the main bedroom window....Am I right? Or am I wrong? Please tell me....right or wrong...one word please...lololol
Noooooooooooo answer???????????? :P :P :P :P
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Noooooooooooo answer???????????? :P :P :P :P
Well, 30 metres in what direction?
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Well, 30 metres in what direction?
From the kitchen side of the house Bridget....so therefore it was impossible see the main bedroom from there....do you agree? 8)
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From the kitchen side of the house Bridget....so therefore it was impossible see the main bedroom from there....do you agree? 8)
If he means 30 yards West, yes, but he doesn't say the direction.
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If he means 30 yards West, yes, but he doesn't say the direction.
I'm right Bridget and you wont except it, that's bad sportmanship......for no matter which corner of the barn she was at, she was facing the kitchen side, she had no view of the main bedroom window...and she was back a HQ for 9:30 well before the gun was put in view of the main bedroom. 8)
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Aren't you both agreeing, in different ways, that it's unlikely she saw a rifle?
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Aren't you both agreeing, in different ways, that it's unlikely she saw a rifle?
Hi Vic, but it is very likely she did...it was daylight...Anyway, I have to go. I'll be back, got appt at the docs.. :)
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Hi Vic, but it is very likely she did...it was daylight...Anyway, I have to go. I'll be back, got appt at the docs.. :)
Good luck.
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Aren't you both agreeing, in different ways, that it's unlikely she saw a rifle?
Well I am..
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I'm right Bridget and you wont except it, that's bad sportmanship......for no matter which corner of the barn she was at, she was facing the kitchen side, she had no view of the main bedroom window...and she was back a HQ for 9:30 well before the gun was put in view of the main bedroom. 8)
Patti, I'll admit that you make a compelling argument, but I'm not really interested in who is right and who is wrong, there isn't a score card. You've made a good contribution to this topic.
You have changed my mind a little, in regards to seeing the master bedroom, talking it through, as we have, it makes sense to a degree. However (there is always a however) the remainder of my original post stands in my view. (As copied below).
Hi Patti,
As alluded to above, in the first instance, I do not know that her statement was withheld, however it certainly wasn't used by the prosecution as part of their case, so they ultimately didn't call Jeapes as a witness.
Could the defence have called Jeapes as a witness if they did have access to her statement, well yes, but unless she stated something which was not contained in her statement, then I'm not sure what help to the defence she would have been, it would be a strange situation, but the prosecution could then cross examine her and reduce any damage to their case that she may have caused.
If she clearly saw a gun in the window (which is very contentious), then in addition to it being in that same location when the firearms entered the house, you would expect to see reference to her informing her superiors of her sighting in the logs, due to the massive implications it would have on a raid team entering the premises. It may also need some explaining why, if it was a rifle, why she didn't see it move.
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I'm right Bridget and you wont except it, that's bad sportmanship......for no matter which corner of the barn she was at, she was facing the kitchen side, she had no view of the main bedroom window...and she was back a HQ for 9:30 well before the gun was put in view of the main bedroom. 8)
Awww I'm not really disagreeing, I think it was the box room too.
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Awww I'm not really disagreeing, I think it was the box room too.
Its not the box room, but on the off chance it was I want to know about the rifle which was leaning against it - since according to the police and the relatives, there were only two rifles present or found at the scene, let me remind you of which rifles these were (1) the .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle, and (2) the .22 BSA air rifle. Now depending upon what you choose to believe, the .22 semi-automatic rifle was found upon Sheila's body in the bedroom, or off it, or found elsewhere in the same bedroom, and the .22 air rifle was found on the spiral staircase which led from the kktchen to the jupstyioars landing...
Now...
About this other rifle leaning up against whichevber window you want to call it, can you please identify it for me?
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Identify this other rifle, and help to solve the case...
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Its not the box room, but on the off chance it was I want to know about the rifle which was leaning against it - since according to the police and the relatives, there were only two rifles present or found at the scene, let me remind you of which rifles these were (1) the .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle, and (2) the .22 BSA air rifle. Now depending upon what you choose to believe, the .22 semi-automatic rifle was found upon Sheila's body in the bedroom, or off it, or found elsewhere in the same bedroom, and the .22 air rifle was found on the spiral staircase which led from the kktchen to the jupstyioars landing...
Now...
About this other rifle leaning up against whichevber window you want to call it, can you please identify it for me?
Jeapes' statement is confusing especially where she says Moules was 12 yds behind her to her right covering white/green side (this would have her on black/green side)!
The rest of it sounds like she is possibly describing the box room, so, like you say Mike, which rifle is this then?
From Hartley's plan of where Jeapes would be positioned, could she see both the master bedroom and boxroom? There is also a wall. How high is this wall?
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Jeapes' statement is confusing especially where she says Moules was 12 yds behind her to her right covering white/green side (this would have her on black/green side)!
The rest of it sounds like she is possibly describing the box room, so, like you say Mike, which rifle is this then?
From Hartley's plan of where Jeapes would be positioned, could she see both the master bedroom and boxroom? There is also a wall. How high is this wall?
Which wall do you mean HM? The straight wall opposite the barn is about a metre high, the curved wall to the right of the yard is about 1600mm high, maybe a bit more.
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Since police only recovered two rifles from the scene, and there was obviously three different ones, the relatives must have removed it from the scene on 10th August 1985, but for some reason the relatuives are niot the slightesrt bit interested in identifying it - Why is that?
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Here is a statement from PC Rozga seeing what he thought was a shotgun in the box room upstairs, which ties in with what Jeapes said in her statement...It is a shame that he does not say it is near a window, in fact he doesn't say where it was......
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Hi Patti Hope your appointment went well. :) :) :)
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Which wall do you mean HM? The straight wall opposite the barn is about a metre high, the curved wall to the right of the yard is about 1600mm high, maybe a bit more.
Curved wall with gate.
Hard to tell, though, where she would have been positioned - bit like 'spot the ball'.
Could she have seen both windows, do you think?
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Does anyone know where this photograph comes from?
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Here is a statement from PC Rozga seeing what he thought was a shotgun in the box room upstairs, which ties in with what Jeapes said in her statement...It is a shame that he does not say it is near a window, in fact he doesn't say where it was......
Hi patti, I don't think that's 'our' box room. That's the office at green end I think?
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Does anyone know where this photograph comes from?
No idea Mike?????? :) :) :) :)
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Here is a statement from PC Rozga seeing what he thought was a shotgun in the box room upstairs, which ties in with what Jeapes said in her statement...It is a shame that he does not say it is near a window, in fact he doesn't say where it was......
Sounds like Ralph's upstairs office - interesting that he saw a shotgun, however!
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Hi patti, I don't think that's 'our' box room. That's the office at green end I think?
Prove it Bridget? lol :) I'm done in with this....but two officers claim to see a gun upstairs. Is there a desk in that office, the green one as you call it? Its not the den where the gun cupboard is....I will try to find out who opened that door....From his description it looks like a store room with boxes in it....hence box room....I could be wrong as I don't know the rooms.... :)
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Prove it Bridget? lol :) I'm done in with this....but two officers claim to see a gun upstairs. Is there a desk in that office, the green one as you call it? Its not the den where the gun cupboard is....I will try to find out who opened that door....From his description it looks like a store room with boxes in it....hence box room....I could be wrong as I don't know the rooms.... :)
I don't think 'box room' means boxes are stored there - just that it's small!
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Prove it Bridget? lol :) I'm done in with this....but two officers claim to see a gun upstairs. Is there a desk in that office, the green one as you call it? Its not the den where the gun cupboard is....I will try to find out who opened that door....From his description it looks like a store room with boxes in it....hence box room....I could be wrong as I don't know the rooms.... :)
I say that because he seems to have accessed it from the back staircase, which is where it goes. Hartley or Vidvic will probably be able to help.
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I don't think 'box room' means boxes are stored there - just that it's small!
Hi there, that's what we are trying to determine....HMEssex...which room is Rozga describing....amybe Hartley will know...:)
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Which room at whf was this photograph taken in?
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I say that because he seems to have accessed it from the back staircase, which is where it goes. Hartley or Vidvic will probably be able to help.
He says Bridget, that on my entry through the door at the top of the stairs i entered a store room.......So we need to find the layout where the stairs go into the rooms.....lol
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I say that because he seems to have accessed it from the back staircase, which is where it goes. Hartley or Vidvic will probably be able to help.
Mmmmmm I think you might be right Bridget....the back stairs appears to lead into a office upstairs. :)
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WPC Jeapes saw a rifle at the window not a shotgun...
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Which room at whf was this photograph taken in?
Don't know. The carpet is green and those are not manicured nails.
Where do you think it was taken, Mike?
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Don't know. The carpet is green [colr=blue]and those are not manicured nails.[/color]
Where do you think it was taken, Mike?
Good point in observation HM.
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Mmmmmm I think you might be right Bridget....the back stairs appears to lead into a office upstairs. :)
I haven't checked his statement, but it sounds like the stairs from the kitchen, which to a small room at the end of the landing, opposite the bathroom and adjacent to the upstairs loo.
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I haven't checked his statement, but it sounds like the stairs from the kitchen, which to a small room at the end of the landing, opposite the bathroom and adjacent to the upstairs loo.
Yep...
He went up the back stairs into the office there...
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Yep...
He went up the back stairs into the office there...
No!
The stairs leading to the upstairs office start in the lobby directly in front of the yard door which the police entered through, the slope of the stairs forms the back of the gun cupboard in the ground floor office/den.
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No!
The stairs leading to the upstairs office start in the lobby directly in front of the yard door which the police entered through, the slope of the stairs forms the back of the gun cupboard in the ground floor office/den.
Hartley. Is there a door to left and one to the right and the stairs are straight ahead? :)
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Hartley. Is there a door to left and one to the right and the stairs are straight ahead? :)
Yes pretty much.
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I have been trying to locate where all the guns in the house were. It appears there were 5 guns, 6 if you include Jeremy's gun.
12 bore gun cupboard 1sr floor.
. 22 air rifle under clothes 2nd step on the stairs leading from the kitchen
Single bolt 410 on 2nd step stood up at the side of the .22 air rifle.
Double barrel 12 bore ground floor shower room
Double barrel 12 bore again, found in shower room.
5 guns ground floor.....
Two of the raid team say a possible sighting of guns upstairs....Jeapes in the Box Room Delgardo in the upstairs office.
So, is it a case of not believing everything you read in professional statements made by police or are they telling the truth...that they did see two guns upstairs. If so where are they? :) :) :)
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I have been trying to locate where all the guns in the house were. It appears there were 5 guns, 6 if you include Jeremy's gun.
12 bore gun cupboard 1sr floor.
. 22 air rifle under clothes 2nd step on the stairs leading from the kitchen
Single bolt 410 on 2nd step stood up at the side of the .22 air rifle.
Double barrel 12 bore ground floor shower room
Double barrel 12 bore again, found in shower room.
5 guns ground floor.....
Two of the raid team say a possible sighting of guns upstairs....Jeapes in the Box Room Delgardo in the upstairs office.
So, is it a case of not believing everything you read in professional statements made by police or are they telling the truth...that they did see two guns upstairs. If so where are they? :) :) :)
By Jeremy's rifle, do you mean the Anshutz rifle found on Sheilas body?
RE: Jeapes sighting of what appeared to be a gun - we've got as far as I think we are going to.
RE: Delgados first floor office sighting, are you referring the the components of a shotgun?
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By Jeremy's rifle, do you mean the Anshutz rifle found on Sheilas body?
RE: Jeapes sighting of what appeared to be a gun - we've got as far as I think we are going to.
RE: Delgados first floor office sighting, are you referring the the components of a shotgun?
Never the less Hartley they claim to have seen a gun upstairs. The list of guns found by the family, of which, none were found upstairs.
Two of the guns that they found were broken down and could not have been loaded.....
No i don't mean the gun on Shelia....I mean two guns that were standing up one at a window, which may be the box and the other in the green office upstairs.
I have no questions about them, I am merely saying that two guns may have been sighted and two guns not been accounted for...possibly one...
I am particular interested in the one Jeapes sees, for she claims it was a rifle....I will ask her...:)
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Never the less Hartley they claim to have seen a gun upstairs. The list of guns found by the family, of which, none were found upstairs.
Two of the guns that they found were broken down and could not have been loaded.....
No i don't mean the gun on Shelia....I mean two guns that were standing up one at a window, which may be the box and the other in the green office upstairs.
I have no questions about them, I am merely saying that two guns may have been sighted and two guns not been accounted for...possibly one...
I am particular interested in the one Jeapes sees, for she claims it was a rifle....I will ask her...:)
I'm just asking a question Patti, that's all, chill.
Any chance you could point me in the direction where you've seen a gun in the first floor office mentioned, I may vaguely recall reading it but forget where now.
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Page 4 of Rozga's statement.
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Page 4 of Rozga's statement.
Thanks Bridget. :)
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I have been trying to locate where all the guns in the house were. It appears there were 5 guns, 6 if you include Jeremy's gun.
Would you mind if I asked which gun you are referring to, when you say 'Jeremys gun'?
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Would you mind if I asked which gun you are referring to, when you say 'Jeremys gun'?
Sorry. When I refer to JB'S gun i mean the German .22 semi automatic which is the one he mainly used at the farm, but was registered in Nevill's name. I believe this was the gun that was found on Sheila and taken by the police. Leaving the 5 guns that I have listed which were found by the family.
No guns were found upstairs...but two were supposedly sighted by the police on the 7th.
I know, no one knows what happened to these guns, that is if they were there....but I am interested as to why this was not looked at, at the time.....I am well chilled Hartley, and got one in fridge...:)
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Sorry. When I refer to JB'S gun i mean the German .22 semi automatic which is the one he mainly used at the farm, but was registered in Nevill's name. I believe this was the gun that was found on Sheila and taken by the police.
So three posts ago when I said 'by Jeremy's gun, do you mean the Anshutz' and you said 'NO', you actually meant YES. >:( ;D
Just to reiterate Patti, I'm not arguing or questioning what you posted, I was just asking for clarification. But you have given it now, thank you.
Any chance I can have that one in the fridge? ;)
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No guns were found upstairs...but two were supposedly sighted by the police on the 7th.
Actually, just one more question (sounds like Columbo :-[ ), where have you got the 'No guns were found upstairs' from?
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Actually, just one more question (sounds like Columbo :-[ ), where have you got the 'No guns were found upstairs' from?
Wasn't it posted somewhere that Ralph kept a shotgun under his bed in case he heard foxes? ??? Sounds a bit hillbilly to me though.
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So three posts ago when I said 'by Jeremy's gun, do you mean the Anshutz' and you said 'NO', you actually meant YES. >:( ;D
Just to reiterate Patti, I'm not arguing or questioning what you posted, I was just asking for clarification. But you have given it now, thank you.
Any chance I can have that one in the fridge? ;)
No I did not say no...stop trying to trip me up and bump my head. :)
No chance...it's all mine...Tell you what I will share it with you...how's that. :P
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Actually, just one more question (sounds like Columbo :-[ ), where have you got the 'No guns were found upstairs' from?
Hi Hartley if there had been guns found upstairs then those guns would have been listed by the family and there is no additional guns found other than the ones I have mentioned to you...
5 guns were found after the murders and this does not include the gun that was found on Sheila.
What I am trying to gain here is whether or not the police were telling the truth or I am making it all up as I go along...hahahaha
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Wasn't it posted somewhere that Ralph kept a shotgun under his bed in case he heard foxes? ??? Sounds a bit hillbilly to me though.
I have read that too Grahame, from off here...how true it is, I don't know....You want to see what I keep under the bed....Ha! :) :) :) :) :)
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No I did not say no...stop trying to trip me up and bump my head. :)
No chance...it's all mine...Tell you what I will share it with you...how's that. :P
Sounds good. ;)
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Hi Hartley if there had been guns found upstairs then those guns would have been listed by the family and there is no additional guns found other than the ones I have mentioned to you...
5 guns were found after the murders and this does not include the gun that was found on Sheila.
What I am trying to gain here is whether or not the police were telling the truth or I am making it all up as I go along...hahahaha
Could it be the case Patti, that the list the family made was just of the ones they found and took away on that day? Also, it's worth pointing out that neither Jeapes or Rozga were positive as to what they had seen, they both said "what appeared to be..." or words to that effect.
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Could it be the case Patti, that the list the family made was just of the ones they found and took away on that day? Also, it's worth pointing out that neither Jeapes or Rozga were positive as to what they had seen, they both said "what appeared to be..." or words to that effect.
Well Bridget my dear if you say that then you must also say that they can't be positive about other things they have said.....The fact is they said it in a statement. The other fact is, that it might have never been brought up at the original trial....that Jeaps saw a rifle at a window...or that Roz might have seen one in the office upstairs....
If this had been questioned at the time, then it could have had a impact to the jury...in believing that it was possible that the gun that killed Sheila was in fact the rifle Jeapes saw at the window, prior to rad team breaking in....and the reason that no officer found that gun in that room is because it had been used on Sheila.....I'm not laughing....but I am smiling with quite a large Cheshire grin....because I know what you are going to say next.... :) :)
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Well Bridget my dear if you say that then you must also say that they can't be positive about other things they have said.....The fact is they said it in a statement. The other fact is, that it might have never been brought up at the original trial....that Jeaps saw a rifle at a window...or that Roz might have seen one in the office upstairs....
If this had been questioned at the time, then it could have had a impact to the jury...in believing that it was possible that the gun that killed Sheila was in fact the rifle Jeapes saw at the window, prior to rad team breaking in....and the reason that no officer found that gun in that room is because it had been used on Sheila.....I'm not laughing....but I am smiling with quite a large Cheshire grin....because I know what you are going to say next.... :) :)
I am not going to say it then - but you know what I'm thinking... :)
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Identify the rifle which WPC Julia Jeapes saw leaning up against any upstairs window, and help to solve the mystery of what really took place once the raid team got into whf at about 7:30am, on the morning of 7th August 1985?
Police only took away two rifles at the beginning (and later returned the .22 air rifle before handing the keys to whf over to Ann Eaton on evening of 9th August 1985)...
The relatives only took away one rifle (the aforementioned .22 air rifle returned by the police to the scene on 9th August 1985).
Where is the third rifle, who owned it, what happened to it, why are the police and the relatives being so secretive over its identity?
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Hi Grahame I read he kept a shotgun under his bed not because of foxes but he had been threatened by some guy for sending his son to prison whilst acting as a Magistrate. ???
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What the occupants of CA07 heard to cause them to relay messages to the scene, is important yet police refuse to disclose what was actually said by whom, how it was interpreted by CA07 to mean what they said to the control room?
Why are they being so secretive and evasive about such a significant part of the case?
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I have read that too Grahame, from off here...how true it is, I don't know....You want to see what I keep under the bed....Ha! :) :) :) :) :)
What you do in your spare time is no business of mine? ::)
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What the occupants of CA07 heard to cause them to relay messages to the scene, is important yet police refuse to disclose what was actually said by whom, how it was interpreted by CA07 to mean what they said to the control room?
Why are they being so secretive and evasive about such a significant part of the case?
It can't be proved that jeapes actually saw a rifle
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It can't be proved that Jeremy Bamber killed anyone. He was convicted by a kangaroo court with witnesses that were prepared to lie to save their own backsides...
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It can't be proved that Jeremy Bamber killed anyone. He was convicted by a kangaroo court with witnesses that were prepared to lie to save their own backsides...
It is immaterial you think JB did nt kill anyone. His innocence has to be proved.this is what you and me differ on. You have the proof that will free JB yet you choose not to utilise it..... Beats me why not mike?
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Well Bridget my dear if you say that then you must also say that they can't be positive about other things they have said.....The fact is they said it in a statement. The other fact is, that it might have never been brought up at the original trial....that Jeaps saw a rifle at a window...or that Roz might have seen one in the office upstairs....
If this had been questioned at the time, then it could have had a impact to the jury...in believing that it was possible that the gun that killed Sheila was in fact the rifle Jeapes saw at the window, prior to rad team breaking in....and the reason that no officer found that gun in that room is because it had been used on Sheila.....I'm not laughing....but I am smiling with quite a large Cheshire grin....because I know what you are going to say next.... :) :)
I have been trying to locate where all the guns in the house were. It appears there were 5 guns, 6 if you include Jeremy's gun.
12 bore gun cupboard 1sr floor.
. 22 air rifle under clothes 2nd step on the stairs leading from the kitchen
Single bolt 410 on 2nd step stood up at the side of the .22 air rifle.
Double barrel 12 bore ground floor shower room
Double barrel 12 bore again, found in shower room.
5 guns ground floor.....
Two of the raid team say a possible sighting of guns upstairs....Jeapes in the Box Room Delgardo in the upstairs office.
So, is it a case of not believing everything you read in professional statements made by police or are they telling the truth...that they did see two guns upstairs. If so where are they?
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Just to advance discussions, this OS Plan may help:
Also the definitive RED/WHITE/BLACK/GREEN directions are as described by Adams I would suggest.
Wow! that's a brilliant drawing Hartley. You ought to have been an architect. :)