Occupants of CA07, relayed information to control room, from raid team...

[Patti]

If the lights were on it would be less easy to notice the moonshining on the windows wouldn't it? I would have thought if the moon came out from behind a cloud and suddenly reflected on the dark window it could look like movement but the moon was the other side of the house so how could that happen?

That's a good point maggie....Does Bews say the main bedroom light was on???

[lookout]

Thankyou for that,girls. It tells me a lot really.

[maggie]

That's a good point maggie....Does Bews say the main bedroom light was on???

I think Bews said a couple of lights were on as opposed to others saying all the lights were on. Need to look at documentary.

[mike tesko]

Moon rises in east and sets in west doesn't it?

Here is a layout of the farmhouse, top of image being north, bottom south, to left as viewed west, and to the right as viewed east., if it helps:-

(Google image must have been taken sometime in the late afternoon when the sun was in a south westerly part of the sky according to the shadows shown in the image)

[mike tesko]

I think Bews said a couple of lights were on as opposed to others saying all the lights were on. Need to look at documentary.

I think Bewsey said in the documentary that there was no light on in the window top right, at which the suspected figure was spotted? This is very interesting because the main bedroom was back lit by the upstairs landing light which was shining through the open bedroom door, which had the effect of showing the person inside the room as a silhouetted figure (according to Jeremy's view of it). I am wondering if Bewsey's account is in relation to a different sighting at the other upstairs bedroom window, not the one at the main bedroom window which Jeremy speaks of, since the main bedroom window is situated top left of the building as viewed by the observers...

[bob]

Yes, offer still stands to all comers and everyone, until Jeremy withdraws it...

Why not post the picture of Sheila on the bed, plus the WHF itemised phone bill, and collect the cool mill then Mikey?

[bloggs and son]

Why not post the picture of Sheila on the bed, plus the WHF itemised phone bill, and collect the cool mill then Mikey?

Well I suppose we would all like that to happen Bob. But what we are discussing here are actual contradictory statements by the raid team. They are documented words. Upon entry one dead male and one dead female. Then when they went upstairs they reported 3 more dead bodies. At some point Sheila's body was transported upstairs by person or persons unknown. Or which has been suggested, by her own self? That part cannot unfortunately be established. But the contradiction can, in spite of their denials and carefully harmonised statements afterwards when they all met together for the briefing. Something is not complete here and I for one would like to know what really went on that night with the SOC officers?

[Bridget]

Well I suppose we would all like that to happen Bob. But what we are discussing here are actual contradictory statements by the raid team. They are documented words. Upon entry one dead male and one dead female. Then when they went upstairs they reported 3 more dead bodies. At some point Sheila's body was transported upstairs by person or persons unknown. Or which has been suggested, by her own self? That part cannot unfortunately be established. But the contradiction can, in spite of their denials and carefully harmonised statements afterwards when they all met together for the briefing. Something is not complete here and I for one would like to know what really went on that night with the SOC officers?

If I was a mod I would find Hartley's 'one dead female one dead male explanation and sticky it to the top of the forum'.

[mike tesko]

If I was a mod I would find Hartley's 'one dead female one dead male explanation and sticky it to the top of the forum'.

Trouble with that explanation, it does not account for how one of these dead bodies was a murder, and the other one a suicide, by 7:45am...

[NewChilledOutHartley]

Trouble with that explanation, it does not account for how one of these dead bodies was a murder, and the other one a suicide, by 7:45am...

It accounts for it perfectly.

What you really need to ask yourself is why Davidson said that he understood from the description of 'a murder and a suicide' as ONE or TWO bodies.

[Roch]

If I was a mod I would find Hartley's 'one dead female one dead male explanation and sticky it to the top of the forum'.

Fair play to him for coming up with an explanation.  It did not ring true for me and I certainly would not sticky it. I suppose it could be stickied as 'Hartley's explanation'   

[mike tesko]

It accounts for it perfectly.

What you really need to ask yourself is why Davidson said that he understood from the description of 'a murder and a suicide' as ONE or TWO bodies.

What, Ralph Bambers death, being described as a suicide?

Shot 8 times?

Refer to all the previous radio message logs passed from the scene, and let everyone make up their own minds:-

07:37am - the body of one dead male and the body of one dead female
07:37am - one dead male, one dead female
07:41am - can someone contact the police surgeon and coroners officer regarding two bodies

Please try to explain for everyones benefit where the information about police being at whf in relation to a murder and a suicide came from? I suppose the control room just made it up, eh?

[NewChilledOutHartley]

What, Ralph Bambers death, being described as a suicide?

Shot 8 times?

Refer to all the previous radio message logs passed from the scene, and let everyone make up their own minds:-

07:37am - the body of one dead male and the body of one dead female
07:37am - one dead male, one dead female
07:41am - can someone contact the police surgeon and coroners officer regarding two bodies

Please try to explain for everyones benefit where the information about police being at whf in relation to a murder and a suicide came from? I suppose the control room just made it up, eh?

Nice try. But the fact if the matter was that they didn't really know what they were dealing with, there were bodies, Davidson was simply given a heads up of what to expect.

It's quite laughable that it's come down to you relying on the wording used to call Davidson to the scene, yet dismiss Davidsons own opinion of what the communication meant. He didn't take the descrption as gospel, he took it as a best guess heads up, ONE or TWO bodies. Yet you try to mislead and trick people into making it mean TWO bodies.

In my humble opinion, if that is the best you have got, then I don't really have anything to challenge.

[maggie]

Nice try. But the fact if the matter was that they didn't really know what they were dealing with, there were bodies, Davidson was simply given a heads up of what to expect.

It's quite laughable that it's come down to you relying on the wording used to call Davidson to the scene, yet dismiss Davidsons own opinion of what the communication meant. He didn't take the descrption as gospel, he took it as a best guess heads up, ONE or TWO bodies. Yet you try to mislead and trick people into making it mean TWO bodies.

In my humble opinion, if that is the best you have got, then I don't really have anything to challenge.

To all intents and purposes Hartley it is not clear and mike's interpretation is as likely as your own. It just depends where you're coming from. If the jury had not been lead down the 'was it Sheila or Jeremy ' route there is little or no concrete proof. At the moment it is mainly supposition.Imho

[mike tesko]

Nice try. But the fact if the matter was that they didn't really know what they were dealing with, there were bodies, Davidson was simply given a heads up of what to expect.

It's quite laughable that it's come down to you relying on the wording used to call Davidson to the scene, yet dismiss Davidsons own opinion of what the communication meant. He didn't take the descrption as gospel, he took it as a best guess heads up, ONE or TWO bodies. Yet you try to mislead and trick people into making it mean TWO bodies.

In my humble opinion, if that is the best you have got, then I don't really have anything to challenge.

Davidson told COLP that DI Cook handed him a paint sample, RC/1 on 8th August 1985, some six days before he was handed the silencer supposedly found by Boutflour in the gun cupboard, and so here is a typical example of what Davidson has to say about the date a paint sample was taken because some paint had been found on the end of a guns barrel -now why would Davidson who was an exhibits officer be saying that Cook had taken a paint sample RC/1 from the aga surround on 8th August 1985, if Cook says he didn't take such a paint sample until 14th August 1985? Seems like you are selective about what you choose to rely on just so long as it suits your own purpose to mislead everyone. Next you'll be saying police didn't stage manage Sheila's body on the bedroom floor...

You'll be trying to pin the blame on Jeremy for doing the very things the police are responsible for doing...