Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on August 01, 2025, 04:49:PM
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http://bulletpath.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
Have not read it yet.
Looks long but interesting.
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It's just a recently updated old blog by Andrew (Andy) Rigsby, who you should know because of his occasional Facebook/X posts.
https://x.com/rigsby_andy/status/1943000948550349102
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This was previously a vlog by 'Gunfire Graffiti'.
The vlog disappeared but this is available.
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http://bulletpath.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
Have not read it yet.
Looks long but interesting.
The rifle scope had been removed before the murders..
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It's just a recently updated old blog by Andrew (Andy) Rigsby, who you should know because of his occasional Facebook/X posts.
https://x.com/rigsby_andy/status/1943000948550349102
Who is Andy Rigsby?
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Who is Andy Rigsby?
Former member of the armed forces with an interest in gun crime.
http://bulletpath.co.uk/
Wrote this book under the pen name of Matt Seiber -
https://www.watersidepress.co.uk/books/gunfire-graffiti-9781904380719/
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Maybe he did feel confident enough to cycle through GH, up Maldon Road & down Brookhouse Lane.
It does pass properties. But the bike was silent, it was 1.00am - 3.00am and there was no street lighting.
The terrain is perfect for cycling. He knew the route as drove most of it at least twice a day.
This route matches Julie's WS of 'about 15 minutes'.
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Former member of the armed forces with an interest in gun crime.
http://bulletpath.co.uk/
Wrote this book under the pen name of Matt Seiber -
https://www.watersidepress.co.uk/books/gunfire-graffiti-9781904380719/
Perhaps that explains why the self proclaimed gun expert on FB did everything he could to discredit him?
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The prosecution played it safe saying he cycled The Sea Wall route.
This explains no one seeing him as it passes no properties.
He had no time restrictions on the way there.
Going by his 3.00am call to Julie he felt he had no time restrictions on the way back either.
So the longer Sea Wall route was a bullet proof option for EP.
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Perhaps that explains why the self proclaimed gun expert on FB did everything he could to discredit him?
It appears so.
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Former member of the armed forces with an interest in gun crime.
http://bulletpath.co.uk/
Wrote this book under the pen name of Matt Seiber -
https://www.watersidepress.co.uk/books/gunfire-graffiti-9781904380719/
He's a former Royal Marine, I thought he was 1 Para but found out he was a Marine in the Falklands Conflict.
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The prosecution played it safe saying he cycled The Sea Wall route.
This explains no one seeing him as it passes no properties.
He had no time restrictions on the way there.
Going by his 3.00am call to Julie he felt he had no time restrictions on the way back either.
So the longer Sea Wall route was a bullet proof option for EP.
I'm not sure they did. There's nothing about it in Wilkes' book. CAL states she thought he would cycle Maldon Road to Tolleshunt D'Arcy, then down the track through the fields.
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I'm not sure they did. There's nothing about it in Wilkes' book. CAL states she thought he would cycle Maldon Road to Tolleshunt D'Arcy, then down the track through the fields.
Miller is on video saying they believe he cycled The Sea Wall route. He said 'No one would see him in a million years'.
The COA doc says he cycled routes that avoided the main roads - The Sea Wall.
Julie testified he planned to cycle The Sea Wall.
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But as said earlier he may have been confident enough to cycle the quicker route on roads.
As usual, options for him.
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Think ive been through the sea wall enough.
A none starter for me.
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Think ive been through the sea wall enough.
A none starter for me.
If it was a non starter it would not be the EP & the prosecution narrative.
You mean you believe he drove and walked.
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Only thing that was physically impossible was walking across the fields. Says Wilkinson's WS.
Although Rob still promotes this method.
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If it was a non starter it would not be the EP & the prosecution narrative.
For me it was a clever narrative for the prosecution to use but not feasible.
There is little point us going over the argument. Our views are well known.
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But agree, I believe he drove in his car.
He may have cycled the road. I dont believe he cycled the sea wall.
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Im currently in a little village called patrington in east Yorkshire. I have a little holiday lodge there. This morning we drove to the local shop to get some butter. Very small village, akin to to goldhanger but less remote I would say. Not one person clocked us driving.
I would wager that 2am odds in goldhanger would have been very favourable to him.
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Officially he had 11 transport options -
4 cycle routes
4 walking routes.
3 driving routes.
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The prosecution had to choose one to make things simple for the jury.
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Most were simple.
They had to choose one which would fit the narrative. Not one person saw Jeremy Bamber. So they went with the sea wall.
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Only thing that was physically impossible was walking across the fields. Says Wilkinson's WS.
Although Rob still promotes this method.
Bamber says he had " no idea " of the route calling " travelling over land madness and laughable "
You yourself says he was intimate with it having worked and travelled the land. If he was he'd possibly be intimate with routes in a way more than Wilkinson was as he knew the vicinity if he knew it as well as you think.
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When I went to visit relatives outside London by train, I looked at the dividers between fields.
Some it would be easy to get to the next field. Others it was not possible due to hedges, bushes, dips, mini streams. Or a combination of these.
The 2.2 miles straight line walking route across fields would turn into 4 miles due to the constant zig zagging needed.
So too long and tiring if there was even a way, which Wilkinson says there wasn't.
Bamber bringing June's bike to WHF 2 days before the massacre.
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To walk in a straight line he would walk across 15 fields. There are two properties he would have to avoid.
The constant zig zagging may mean he would have to walk across 20+ fields.
Farm fields are for tractors or farm workers. Not for walking across. So the terrain would be tiring.
He would constantly have to get to the next field. There may be gaps where he could do this, but it may not be easy.
So can understand why he brought June's bike over two days beforehand.
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Bamber says he had " no idea " of the route calling " travelling over land madness and laughable "
You yourself says he was intimate with it having worked and travelled the land. If he was he'd possibly be intimate with routes in a way more than Wilkinson was as he knew the vicinity if he knew it as well as you think.
Again, he overcooks it in the forlorn hope that newbies to the case with only the most superficial knowledge will take him at his word. Of course he was familiar with the geography of the area, and he's insulting people's intelligence by arguing to the contrary.
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To walk in a straight line he would walk across 15 fields. There are two properties he would have to avoid.
15 fields?
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Again, he overcooks it in the forlorn hope that newbies to the case with only the most superficial knowledge will take him at his word. Of course he was familiar with the geography of the area, and he's insulting people's intelligence by arguing to the contrary.
Believe this would have been the first time he would have travelled to tollshunt D'Arcy from Bourtree in this manner.
The guy drove.
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Farm fields are for tractors or farm workers. Not for walking across. So the terrain would be tiring.
My current view, I would have no problem walking this field. Every farmers field no doubt differs.
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To walk in a straight line he would walk across 15 fields. There are two properties he would have to avoid.
The constant zig zagging may mean he would have to walk across 20+ fields.
Farm fields are for tractors or farm workers. Not for walking across. So the terrain would be tiring.
He would constantly have to get to the next field. There may be gaps where he could do this, but it may not be easy.
So can understand why he brought June's bike over two days beforehand.
Not promoting the walking theory, but possible Bamber was much more intimate with it perhaps then Wilkinson. Bamber being a local may have known lots of nooks and crannys.
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Believe this would have been the first time he would have travelled to tollshunt D'Arcy from Bourtree in this manner.
The guy drove.
First and last.
He may have done a trial cycle ride the night before. On some of his chosen route.
When a boy he may have gone cycling a lot. Boys have lots of energy.
The CT suggest if he had travelled via the main roads he would have been seen. They boast that no one saw him.
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They boast that no one saw him.
Well its not a boast It's the truth and an agreed fact. Nobody saw him.
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For me I wouldn't have expected anybody to have seen him cycling or driving the roads.
Except perhaps Cats, foxes, etc.
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Well its not a boast It's the truth and an agreed fact. Nobody saw him.
..until it was too late. Someone mentioned a tramp-like figure who may have seen him in the small hours but I'm unsure as to whether a statement was taken. I suppose he must have been regarded as an unreliable witness, if indeed the person did exist.
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I didn't realise the rifle bullets were so small. The size of a pen tip. But rabbits won't find them small.
No way Nevill would not instantly reclaim that rifle from Sheila.
Bamber chose the rifle so he could promote his rabbit story. The rifle also held more bullets. But two reloads still needed.
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..until it was too late. Someone mentioned a tramp-like figure who may have seen him in the small hours but I'm unsure as to whether a statement was taken. I suppose he must have been regarded as an unreliable witness, if indeed the person did exist.
Without verified statements it is nothing more than red herrings. Believe DB tried to float rumours of the same nature.
I stand by my assessment of good odds
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First and last.
He may have done a trial cycle ride the night before. On some of his chosen route.
When a boy he may have gone cycling a lot. Boys have lots of energy.
If he went the sea wall especially at night he must have been familiar with the route.
Whether from childhood, walking Brambles, or a walk with Julie.
If for example he went to have a drink with nevill at WHF, he may have walked the route their in the summer and got a taxi back to bourtree for example
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Just took this photo, sat on the patio. I will take a picture later on. Maybe not the same surrounding farmers fields as WHF etc but easy enough to negate in daylight. Perhaps not at 2am.
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There may have been all sorts of trial runs in the proceeding months weeks whatever.
Him going by car for example in an effort to see if he could guahe a response if anybody clocked him.
I dont believe he went via the sea wall. But if he did perhaps he got very familiar with it in times preceeding 7.8.85.
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Im currently in a little village called patrington in east Yorkshire. I have a little holiday lodge there. This morning we drove to the local shop to get some butter. Very small village, akin to to goldhanger but less remote I would say. Not one person clocked us driving.
I would wager that 2am odds in goldhanger would have been very favourable to him.
How do you know ILB? I bet someone did.
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I didn't realise the rifle bullets were so small. The size of a pen tip. But rabbits won't find them small.
No way Nevill would not instantly reclaim that rifle from Sheila.
Bamber chose the rifle so he could promote his rabbit story. The rifle also held more bullets. But two reloads still needed.
"Used against a human form and particularly multi shot at close range it can be devastating."
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How do you know ILB? I bet someone did.
Cctv cameras monitoring the park.
In 1985 a miniscule chance.
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The farmers field picture I took earlier. Time is 22.48.
Bamber needed artificial light to do this if over fields.
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The farmers field picture I took earlier. Time is 22.48.
Bamber needed artificial light to do this if over fields.
It's over ILB. The successful prosecution case is he cycled The Sea Wall. The defence did not dispute this.
You had the chance to film The Sea Wall at night but didn't.
The videos I have found show it is an open area. Bulletproof says it was easy to see. It should be if there were BBQ's.
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"Used against a human form and particularly multi shot at close range it can be devastating."
A poster on Bulletproofs article says the rifle can be used on rabbits but not foxes.
The slow death foxes would have from that rifle is considered too cruel.
So no chance of dropping an elephant from half a mile away.
Not surprised Nevill needed 8 shots, (6 in the head) & 40+ other injuries.
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Both WHF & GH are in locations with no street lighting.
Suspect the relatives lived in areas with no street lighting & worked in the dark. Which is why they promoted the cycle ride.
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A poster on Bulletproofs article says the rifle can be used on rabbits but not foxes.
The slow death foxes would have from that rifle is considered too cruel.
So no chance of dropping an elephant from half a mile away.
Not surprised Nevill needed 8 shots, (6 in the head) & 40+ other injuries.
The quote: "Used against a human form and particularly multi shot at close range it can be devastating."
was from the Bulletpath article
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'A .22 round is totally inappropriate for shooting humans and no doubt caused slow and agonising death in some of the victims. Indeed it is illegal to use a .22 to shoot foxes for that reason'.
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The quote: "Used against a human form and particularly multi shot at close range it can be devastating."
was from the Bulletpath article
Agree multi shot at close range can be devastating.
But a rifle with such small bullets would instantly be reclaimed from Sheila.
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We've no idea what happened pre trial.
Nothing from Bamber, etc
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It's over ILB. The successful prosecution case
The successful prosecution case is that Bamber killed his parents, sister and nephews on August 7th 1985.
How he got to and from WHF has never been established one way or another. Nobody saw him.
You know this.
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The successful prosecution case is that Bamber killed his parents, sister and nephews on August 7th 1985.
How he got to and from WHF has never been established one way or another. Nobody saw him.
You know this.
It's over ILB.
No one at trial or in 40 years of appeals has said it was too dark to cycle The Sea Wall at night.
You know this.
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It's over ILB.
Whats over?
We dont know how he travelled. Only he knows.
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For me it doesnt matter as I dont see transport as key issue.
As the bloke was physically capable, and had a car. He had options
I just dont believe the sea wall.
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AI agreed with every point I made about the sea wall in an earlier thread, only differing on Bambers knowledge of the sea wall which hasten too add was Bambers own opinions and not mine.
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Adam just needs to be a man and accept that Bamber wouldnt have been able to see shit without some form or artificial lighting.
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It's over ILB.
No one at trial or in 40 years of appeals has said it was too dark to cycle The Sea Wall at night.
You know this.
What other people do is not my business.
Me and you have no idea what was discussed pre trial 1986 about the sea wall between Bamber and his legal team. We are not privy to the information. You just make assumptions " they did this they did that" with no proof or basis to make them.
Bamber himself years later mocked scorn on it himself. And I quote " travelling over land in the middle of the night on my mums bike on a route I had no idea about, its laughable its madness "
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My chalet overlooks an open area, great visibility in the day, not in nighttime conditions hence the photo I sent last night. It doesnt matter whether im near a farmers field in Dundee, penzance, kings Lynn, tollshunt D'Arcy, we cant argue with the sky.
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For me it doesnt matter as I dont see transport as key issue.
As the bloke was physically capable, and had a car. He had options
I just dont believe the sea wall.
I know you believe he drove and walked.
Saying the vision on The Sea Wall would not be sufficient is a non starter. EP, the prosecution, Bulletproof, the relatives and the defence believe it would be. They visited it.
Even Bamber did not say this at trial or have it as a ground in 40 years of appeals. He would know, he was brought up & lived in villages with no street lighting.
My videos show the terrain was good for cycling. Day & night. Park bench available for a rest.
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The other thing my videos showed was The Sea Wall was empty.
During the day!
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Bulletproof -
'The going was flat with a 360 degree horizon and once my night vision was established it was so easy to see'.
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Have to agree with AI, an IQ over 30, common sense, the sky and Bamber on this.
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Have to agree with AI, an IQ over 30, common sense, the sky and Bamber on this.
As with the window, have to go with EP, the prosecution, relatives, defence & Bulletproof.
They have been there. You had the chance to, but didn't.
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As with the window, have to go with EP, the prosecution, relatives, defence & Bulletproof.
They have been there. You had the chance to, but didn't.
Visibility is the same throughout the UK, doesn't matter where I am.
My photo evidence of last night.
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If you want to argue visibility times of either East Yorkshire and Tollshunt D'Arcy Essex ( both of England UK) feel free.
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As with the window, have to go with EP, the prosecution, relatives, defence & Bulletproof.
They have been there. You had the chance to, but didn't.
You are not stupid
You know he at the very least needed artificial lighting.
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You are not stupid
You know he at the very least needed artificial lighting.
As said I could cycle for miles from where I live without artificial lighting. In any direction. As am used to the area.
But appreciate people are different. Rob says he couldn't go into his back garden!
We both agree Bamber would be very determined. Doubt cycling at night were his main thoughts pre massacre.
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A pitch black field is a pitch black field.
Visibility is none existent.
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A pitch black field is a pitch black field.
Visibility is none existent.
Ditto a pitch black village.
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Ditto a pitch black village.
The astra had headlights.
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Nobody is going to jump out of bed over a Vauxhall astra turning over in August 85 in goldhanger at 2am.
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Nobody is going to jump out of bed over a Vauxhall astra turning over in August 85 in goldhanger at 2am.
Have to agree to differ.
Me, EP, the prosecution, defence, relatives, Bulletproof believe he could cycle The Sea Wall. Even Bamber hasn't disputed it at trial or in 40 years of appeals.
You believe he drove and walked
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Have to agree to differ.
Me, EP, the prosecution, defence, relatives, Bulletproof believe he could cycle The Sea Wall. Even Bamber hasn't disputed it at trial or in 40 years of appeals.
You believe he drove and walked
Nothing to dispute post conviction
I dont have a word for word transcript of the trial as to whether the sea wall was mentioned by Rivlin.
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Nothing to dispute post conviction
I dont have a word for word transcript of the trial as to whether the sea wall was mentioned by Rivlin.
The Sea Wall is mentioned at trial in Wilkes's book. Julie said he planned to cycle it.
He is also accused of cycling it. He refutes this but does not say he did not know the way or that it would be too dark.
Believe the defence stance is the same as with the window. Yes it is possible but that does not mean he did.
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The Sea Wall is mentioned at trial in Wilkes's book. Julie said he planned to cycle it.
He is also accused of cycling it. He refutes this but does not say he did not know the way or that it would be too dark.
Believe the defence stance is the same as with the window. Yes it is possible but that does not mean he did.
Don't have a verbatim of the trial word for word, Arlidge mentions the sea wall once and its met with a denial.
The COA 2002 references " a route that avoided the back roads"
We have Wilkinsons experiments.
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Believe the defence stance is the same as with the window. Yes it is possible but that does not mean he did.
Personally leaning to them not discussing it pre trial. ( Bamber and co) much bigger fish to fry.
Believe Bamber may have thought have utilising it post 1986.
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Currently visibility farmers field, east Yorkshire 22.20pm
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Artificial lighting.
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Artificial lighting.
Let it go ILB.
Hundreds of villages don't have street lighting. Posting random photos of dark areas won't help.
EP, the prosecution, defence, relatives, CAL, Bulletproof can't all be wrong.
Even the CT have not posted a counter video. The best they have done was an audio from Phillip & Yvonne. During the day!
Bamber disputed it decades later as properganda. It works with some.
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Bulletproof -
'The going was flat with a 360 degree horizon and once my night vision was established it was so easy to see'.
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ILB is in the Rob camp -
People cannot even go into there back gardens at night.
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Let it go ILB.
Hundreds of villages don't have street lighting. Posting random photos of dark areas won't help.
EP, the prosecution, defence, relatives, CAL, Bulletproof can't all be wrong.
Even the CT have not posted a counter video. The best they have done was an audio from Phillip & Yvonne. During the day!
Bamber disputed it decades later as properganda. It works with some.
Nothing to let go.
Reality.
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Bulletproof -
'The going was flat with a 360 degree horizon and once my night vision was established it was so easy to see'.
Goggles.
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Seems ILB is going to post random photos of dark areas. To claim everyone else has been wrong for the last 40 years.
Disappointing he didn't post a video of The Sea Wall which he said he was going to do. For me and everyone else.
Just have to go by the videos I posted showing a nice open area.
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Have to go with common sense.
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Weird how Adam knocks the car scenario so much.
Quiet area.
Top of the range astra.
16 minute round trip.
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Weird how Adam knocks the car scenario so much.
Quiet area.
Top of the range astra.
16 minute round trip.
If you think he drove and walked that is fine. No one else believes that.
Just don't agree people cannot leave there properties without street lighting. It is dark by 4pm in winter.
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Maybe The Doc Maker will post a video. He is very pro active.
Don't really need a day time video. There is enough of them.
Or maybe he has checked out the route but the results did not match his narrative.
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Weird how Adam knocks the car scenario so much.
Quiet area.
Top of the range astra.
16 minute round trip.
Because he would then have to also believe that Julie lied about Jeremy saying he used the bike after Robert Boutflour came up with the idea.
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Because he would them have to also believe that Julie lied about Jeremy saying he used the bike after Robert Boutflour came up with the idea.
Julie said he planned to use the bike. After the massacre he gave himself a proxy for obvious reasons.
June's bike did arrive 2 days before the massacre. Which gave Bamber the chance to do the trial run Julie said he planned to do.
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'it had been brought to Jeremy’s house for Julie Mugford to use, so that she could cycle from Goldhanger to Toleshunt D'arcy, leaving the bike at the Red Lion Pub'.
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Julie's cycle rides would be during the day. GH & TD goes into lockdown at night due to no street lighting.
Don't believe this was Bamber's narrative at trial. He said the bike was for Julie to cycle to a mysterious gym.
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The OS says the prosecution case is Bamber walked to WHF cross country. Then cycled back.
This is incorrect. Wilkinson said it was not possible to do this & Julie saw June's bike at GH before the massacre.
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Says the Red Lion Pub is now Ruby's Indian Cuisine. It is 2.5 miles from WHF by the main roads.
Don't know how near it was to the bus station.
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The OS says the prosecution case is Bamber walked to WHF cross country. Then cycled back.
This is incorrect. Wilkinson said it was not possible to do this & Julie saw June's bike at GH before the massacre.
There will be a route available of course.
Remember by your own estimation Bamber would be more intimate with the landscape than Wilkinson, knowing every nook and cranny despite him denying doing so.
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Adam thinks Bamber should " drive Julie about all over the place"
He was a busy guy.
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For Bamber to drive Julie from GH to the TD bus station, it would take -
7 minutes if already at GH.
14 minutes if having to go from WHF back to GH.
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Guess the 14 hour days at WHF didn't include lunch & coffee breaks.
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There will be a route available of course.
Remember by your own estimation Bamber would be more intimate with the landscape than Wilkinson, knowing every nook and cranny despite him denying doing so.
One day Bamber can't get to the field adjoining his back garden.
The next day he's zig zagging across fields, through hedges, bushes, dips & streams.
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AI -
Yes, nighttime in the UK is noticeably lighter in the summer.
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Someone needs to go to The Sea Wall at night this month. With a video camera.
Going there in February is no good.
Maybe The Doc Maker is planning a 7th August anniversary visit.
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One day Bamber can't get to the field adjoining his back garden.
The next day he's zig zagging across fields, through hedges, bushes, dips & streams.
This is your view. Not mine.
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Aerobics for women were a big thing in the 1980s. My sister was fascinated by it.
Its possible Goldhanger village hall had some kind of aerobics class that Julie went to which Bamber termed as a "gym" a ladies work out type of thing.
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The trouble with that proposal is though is that Goldhanger village hall is 1 minute away from Bourtree cottage ( both on head street) a cycle would not be needed as its mere walking distance.
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Aerobics for women were a big thing in the 1980s. My sister was fascinated by it.
Its possible Goldhanger village hall had some kind of aerobics class that Julie went to which Bamber termed as a "gym" a ladies work out type of thing.
She is well into her femcel years now.
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She is well into her femcel years now.
Yes, but only 21 back in 1985.
Whatever you believe I believe the gym story to be true in the sense there was a gym or some type of activity nearby.
It would be stupid for Bamber to mention " a mysterious gym" if none existed well in the vicinity.
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AI -
Yes, nighttime in the UK is noticeably lighter in the summer.
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Someone needs to go to The Sea Wall at night this month. With a video camera.
Going there in February is no good.
Maybe The Doc Maker is planning a 7th August anniversary visit.
It's August, last night the picture on my chalet patio I sent you was at 10.20pm, it was pitchblack. Looking onto an open area farmers field.
Bamber is supposed to have made the journey at 1 or 2 o clock in the morning.
It doesnt matter whether I sent the picture, from East Yorkshire, where I am, Norwich, Tollshunt D'Arcy, Bristol, Cardiff, Carlisle, Goldhanger, the visibility conditions in those areas of the UK at that time in those conditions will all tally up.
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My nearest gym is 2 minutes away on the bike.
When they shut down for a day due to repairs they say I can use one of there other gyms. They are about 10 minutes away by bike.
I get very upset!
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Gave my tyres a pump up yesterday. Need to do this once a month rather than once a year.
A 100% pumped up tyres rather than 85% does make me more powerful.
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Likely was just a ladies activity type of class she went to.
Don't believe Bamber just conjured up a mystery gym, lesuire activity place on the spot.
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Says the Red Lion Pub is now Ruby's Indian Cuisine. It is 2.5 miles from WHF by the main roads.
Don't know how near it was to the bus station.
I thought his usual practice was to drop her off in his car at Colchester rail station.
That's what he did on the Sunday prior to 7.8.85.
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Give myself fitness tests on my bike. Only when going up hill. On flat surfaces will be too dangerous in London.
The hills where I live are not going anywhere. So I attack them. No point being negative.
One hill I usually stop half way up. The last time I looked up at the hill from the bottom & thought 'I can do that'. So just about did it.
I stay in the same gear on my bike. Go fast on flat surfaces and can get up most hills.
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The trouble with that proposal is though is that Goldhanger village hall is 1 minute away from Bourtree cottage ( both on head street) a cycle would not be needed as its mere walking distance.
The nearest other place is Tollshunt Major, which is 1.5 miles away.
That looks just as small as GH.
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I thought his usual practice was to drop her off in his car at Colchester rail station.
That's what he did on the Sunday prior to 7.8.85.
You need to decide why Bamber brought the bike over 2 days before the massacre.
Either for Julie to go to a mysterious gym.
Or so Julie could cycle 2.5 miles to The Red Lion pub in TD. As the OS says. Bamber unable to spare 7 - 14 minutes.
Both are weak.
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You need to decide why Bamber brought the bike over 2 days before the massacre.
Either for Julie to go to a mysterious gym.
Or so Julie could cycle 2.5 miles to The Red Lion pub in TD. As the OS says. Bamber unable to spare 7 - 14 minutes.
Both are weak.
Maybe Bamber couldnt be arsed to drive her.
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You need to decide why Bamber brought the bike over 2 days before the massacre.
Either for Julie to go to a mysterious gym.
Or so Julie could cycle 2.5 miles to The Red Lion pub in TD. As the OS says. Bamber unable to spare 7 - 14 minutes.
Both are weak.
Bamber said for Julie.
In his police interviews he said it was for " her to get about and do stuff " obviously the inference is there he would be working or pre occupied etc.
At trial he mentioned the gym, cant prove or disprove.
Julie has never said " i didnt want the bike.
" I never wanted the bike for the gym"
Julie acknowledges that she and Bamber had discussed the bike for her on a number of occasions prior.
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It's August, last night the picture on my chalet patio I sent you was at 10.20pm, it was pitchblack. Looking onto an open area farmers field.
Bamber is supposed to have made the journey at 1 or 2 o clock in the morning.
It doesnt matter whether I sent the picture, from East Yorkshire, where I am, Norwich, Tollshunt D'Arcy, Bristol, Cardiff, Carlisle, Goldhanger, the visibility conditions in those areas of the UK at that time in those conditions will all tally up.
You should go to The Sea Wall this month. At night. Better late than never.
You will need to take a video. Selective photos of dark areas are no good.
You can then post the video on the pro Bamber sites. Might gather momentum.
No point telling me. I believe people can travel in outside darkness.
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Julie says she saw the bike three days prior to the massacre.
Bamber in his September interviews says the " bikes been at my house for about 6 to 8 weeks prior to the event"
No exactly time frame specific,
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Bamber said for Julie.
In his police interviews he said it was for " her to get about and do stuff " obviously the inference is there he would be working or pre occupied etc.
At trial he mentioned the gym, cant prove or disprove.
Julie has never said " i didnt want the bike.
" I never wanted the bike for the gym"
Julie acknowledges that she and Bamber had discussed the bike for her on a number of occasions prior.
Get about and do what stuff?
She was really trapped in GH when Bamber was at work. Even with a bike.
TD was 2.5 miles away & Tollshunt Major was 1.5 miles away.
Doubt either had anything there that GH didn't have.
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You should go to The Sea Wall this month. At night. Better late than never.
You will need to take a video. Selective photos of dark areas are no good.
You can then post the video on the pro Bamber sites. Might gather momentum.
No point telling me. I believe people can travel in outside darkness.
You do realise this crime happened in the UK?
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Get about and do what stuff?
She was really trapped in GH when Bamber was at work. Even with a bike.
TD was 2.5 miles away & Tollshunt Major was 1.5 miles away.
Doubt either had anything there that GH didn't have.
Bamber would be on the farm working.
Julie would be stuck in his cottage with the tv. She was 21.
Cycle to the shops, cycle for fitness, go for a picnic etc etc, it was the 80s.
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Maybe Bamber couldnt be arsed to drive her.
That is what the OS is saying.
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Why did he invite her over if he would be working? Well he would have a finish time, and Without being crude the obvious. We've all been there.
Nothing unusual.
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Bamber would be on the farm working.
Julie would be stuck in his cottage with the tv. She was 21.
Cycle to the shops, cycle for fitness, go for a picnic etc etc, it was the 80s.
Bit strange Julie visiting someone who would be working 14 hour days.
EP & the prosecution have there own reason why the bike was brought over.
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June didnt like the idea of Jez having Julie there.
Offering to buy Julie a flat.
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Bit strange Julie visiting someone who would be working 14 hour days.
" young bloke wants girlfriend at his cottage for a shag, stop the press"
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" young bloke wants girlfriend at his cottage for a shag, stop the press"
This & June's bike to cycle to TD. Julie really was being treated like a lady.
Did 'work life balance' for 3 years - 36 hours into 4 days.
Thursday would be my big day - 7am - 7pm.
By 9pm my brain & body would shut down, whatever I was doing.
There was only one thing I could do - sleep.
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This & June's bike to cycle to TD. Julie really was being treated like a lady.
Did 'work life balance' for 3 years - 36 hours into 4 days.
Thursday would be my big day - 7am - 7pm.
By 9pm my brain & body would shut down, whatever I was doing.
There was only one thing I could do - sleep.
Jeremy was built different, he worked a 14 hour day and then supposably massacred five people. As well as doing the tour de goldhanger.
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This & June's bike to cycle to TD. Julie really was being treated like a lady.
He wasnt a gentleman.
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Jeremy was built different, he worked a 14 hour day and then supposably massacred five people. As well as doing the tour de goldhanger.
Must admit a possible 500k+ would result in me setting my alarm a bit earlier.
You should video The Sea Wall at night this month. Only Bulletproof has documented a night time visit. Which is just a vlog.
Surprised none of his supporters have done so if only for properganda reasons.
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Must have had a torch helmet.
The bike probably had an innocent explanation exploited by the prosecution.
This morning I turned on the car, and waited everyone to stand up and go to their chalet window, nobody did so.
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You need to decide why Bamber brought the bike over 2 days before the massacre.
Either for Julie to go to a mysterious gym.
Or so Julie could cycle 2.5 miles to The Red Lion pub in TD. As the OS says. Bamber unable to spare 7 - 14 minutes.
Both are weak.
As is the idea that Julie needed to cycle 2.5 miles to TD when the bus passed the top of Head Street, a 5 minute walk.
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As is the idea that Julie needed to cycle 2.5 miles to TD when the bus passed the top of Head Street, a 5 minute walk.
So she would turn left out of 9, Head Street. Then get a bus on Maldon Road which would take her to TD.
I did not know that.
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AI -
The 75 bus route is the one that serves the B1026 road, specifically in the Tolleshunt D'Arcy area.
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A taxi for a 7 minute drive would only cost £5.
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Can only think the OS changed the reason to Julie cycling to TD because there was no gym.
Doubtful she would consider cycling. She can get a lift, a taxi or a bus.
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Can only think the OS changed the reason to Julie cycling to TD because there was no gym.
Doubtful she would consider cycling. She can get a lift, a taxi or a bus.
This wouldnt have come from the CT, it would have come from Bamber himself.
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I dont think he was worried about the presence of the bike.
Leaving it at his cottage for all on sundry to see in the aftermath of the massacre.
Although at this stage it was murder suicide so he perhaps had no worry at all.
He smoothly comes ups with an answer in police interview when questioned in September.
Although in fairness in the interviews the bike is not pressed much by detectives.
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Would have been more beneneficial to him to be honest if he had said he had got the bike for his own purposes rather than for Julie. ( in the normal sense not 7.8.85) When I say believable not held to scrutiny as much.
He could say he was thinking of taking up cycling, was going to start cycling to work to keep fit, was going cycling with friends at the weekend etc.
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This wouldnt have come from the CT, it would have come from Bamber himself.
So there was no gym.
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So there was no gym.
His memory is probably knackered by the years of imprisonment to be honest.
He does say in interviews " we had talked of different purposes"
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If there was a gym which was a 10 minute cycle ride away, that would be more convincing than Julie cycling to TD.
Julie could get a bus, taxi or Bamber could allocate 7-14 minutes to drive her.
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Perhaps he simply couldnt be arsed to drive her.
Selfishness on his part whatever.
Perhaps she had travelpass who knows.
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Perhaps he simply couldnt be arsed to drive her.
Selfishness on his part whatever.
Perhaps she had travelpass who knows.
That would be selfish.
He had driven her the previous 18 months. Only takes 7-14 minutes.
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That would be selfish.
He had driven her the previous 18 months. Only takes 7-14 minutes.
We've got one recollection of him dropping her off at Colchester railway station on the Sunday proceeding the massacre.
She spent time at bourtree, and he would drive to her digs in London.
Agree in fairness if he dropped her off at the railway station on the Sunday, then one can infer it is something he did regular. But nobody knows except Jeremy and Julie for sure.
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Julie says " we had discussed me getting the bike " she was quite vague on it to be honest. In fairness though Bamber himself didnt expand much further.
Julie never point said though, " Jeremy's reason for getting the bike for me is a load of bollocks"
They are both in agreed fact about the bike being used for the use of Julie. The point is when at what stage.
Did they discuss it on the 5th? That's the day Julie says she first saw it?
She makes no recollection of Bamber bringing it over in his car from WHF, disagree with Adam it had arrived two days prior.
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Likely he brought it over to Bourtree some point in July 85.
He may have put it in his shed so Julie may not have seen it at various stages.
He may have done trial runs in the days weeks proceeding hence he left it out.
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Doubt Bamber spent much time working when Julie was there. Otherwise there is no point in her visiting.
She is not going hang around sleepy GH all day waiting for him to get home at 10pm.
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Doubt Bamber spent much time working when Julie was there. Otherwise there is no point in her visiting.
She is not going hang around sleepy GH all day waiting for him to get home at 10pm.
She was in a relationship with him.
It was probably a welcome break for Julie to have a property to herself as she was used to sharing digs with other students etc.
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Doubt Bamber spent much time working when Julie was there. Otherwise there is no point in her visiting.
She is not going hang around sleepy GH all day waiting for him to get home at 10pm.
When do you first believe Jeremy knew Shelia and the boys were staying at WHF?
CCs recollection is he told him on the party at Saturday. Days before.
Julie says he " made no mention of murdering anybody that weekend"
If he first learnt the Saturday he must have done a trial run on the Monday evening. It's his only feasible window to have done so. Otherwise none.
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Suppose he could have done one Sunday night after dropping Julie off. He was alone.
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She was in a relationship with him.
It was probably a welcome break for Julie to have a property to herself as she was used to sharing digs with other students etc.
Doubt Bamber would invite her over if he was working 14 hour days. Or that Julie would make the long journey.
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Doubt Bamber would invite her over if he was working 14 hour days. Or that Julie would make the long journey.
she probably came over on periods when she had free time.
Seems Bamber would drive to London and spend the night before coming back to tollshunt D'Arcy for work.
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If Jeremy's lying over the bike for Julie, she has never denied it.
It's obvious the two are up to their neck in it. This is no damsel, passive collaborator scenario. It went tit's up when he jilted her.
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Will make a start on the article now. See what I agree & disagree with.
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'There was no direct evidence that could be attributed to her brother, Jeremy Bamber'
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Disagree with that. As there is no evidence it was Sheila & only Bamber knew there was something wrong at the farm.
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'After they had overtaken Bamber on Tollesbury Road he must have actually stopped and waited for a couple of minutes'
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Not sure why he says that.
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'There was nothing simple about using this rifle'.
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Agree with that.
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it is roughly the size of the push button on the top of a common ink pen.
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Referring to the rifles bullets. Can understand why it is only used on rabbits and not foxes.
Not sure it would drop an elephant from half a mile away as Rob said.
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'The scope whilst an ideal sighting accessory to shoot rabbits would have been a burden to a shooter trying to use such a weapon in the close confines of a property to shoot people'.
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Agree with that.
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'The process of making a semi-auto rifle ready, (loaded and cocked to fire), is not natural, it takes practise.'
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Agree with that. But appreciare supporters will say Sheila had lived on the farm in the 70's.
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'She managed this without dropping any cartridges or leaving any lead deposit or bullet lube on her hands, fingers or clothing. She was also able to do this with long natural nails and without damaging them'.
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This refutes Bulletproof's earlier quote I put in reply 150.
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'She had accounted for her rounds perfectly and had had a single round left for her own departure but when she failed to kill herself she reloaded the rifle having conveniently access to one further round and finished the job'
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It is an interesting point that the rifle on Sheila was empty.
Lucky she had 2 bullets left as the first one did not kill her & she would not have been able to go downstairs & re load.
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'The route was easy and it would have been equally simple at night with the available ambient light'.
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He is talking about the BHL route.
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'On 18 July 2021 I visited the location once again. The weather was almost identical to the night of the murders'.
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This refers to The Sea Wall. He is doing it close to the 7th August. When summer darkness will be similar.
He says he set off at 10.30pm. The darkness would be 100%.
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'The going was flat with a 360 degree horizon and once my night vision was established it was so easy to see'.
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Obviously it would be easier for Bamber as he was familar with the route.
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'It was further than the Brook House Farm route but walking or cycling was no problem and it completely avoided tarmac roads.'
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This matches the videos online showing good, flat terrain on The Sea Wall.
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'she would be the only female, gun slay mass murderer with no knowledge of firearms that has ever existed in this country since the invention of gunpowder.'
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Appreciate supporters will say she lived at WHF in the 70's.
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Little point either us contining a debate on the sea wall Adam.
Adamant and stubborn on our polar opposite views.
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Little point either us contining a debate on the sea wall Adam.
Adamant and stubborn on our polar opposite views.
Do you agree he could cycle the BHF route?
He drove 80% of that route to work every day.
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Do you agree he could cycle the BHF route?
He drove 80% of that route to work every day.
Yes.
If he had had a torch and helmet and I 100 percent sure he knew the sea wall route to tollshunt D'Arcy. Then maybe id begin to entertain the idea.
He is denying knowing it. Of course he will but who can contradict him?
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Yes.
If he had had a torch and helmet and I 100 percent sure he knew the sea wall route to tollshunt D'Arcy. Then maybe id begin to entertain the idea.
He is denying knowing it. Of course he will but who can contradict him?
I was asking about the BHF route.
Of which 80% of he had driven hundreds of times.
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I was asking about the BHF route.
Of which 80% of he had driven hundreds of times.
And I answered, Yes.
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Some people play things safe, some people are risk takers.
If I am to believe the guilter version of events. I would class Bamber as a risk taker.
Using a woman who is out of it and feeble as a scapegoat.
Selling pictures of his dead sister to tabloids for cash.
Doing a drugs run days after.
Telling his girlfriend of his intentions and then jilting her.
Flashing a designer suit to Dectectives who are on to you saying " me the boss "
With all this in mind, I believe someone like him would drive his car.
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Perhaps Jeremy wouldn't see it as a risk.
Perhaps he just rode on his confidence.
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And I answered, Yes.
How would a torch help him?
Probably effective for about 2 feet. He would have to cycle one handed.
For me Bamber could cycle the 10 minute journey in the dark. It was on roads and he had driven it hundreds of times.
This is the route CAL says he cycled.
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How would a torch help him?
Probably effective for about 2 feet. He would have to cycle one handed.
For me Bamber could cycle the 10 minute journey in the dark. It was on roads and he had driven it hundreds of times.
This is the route CAL says he cycled.
A helmet with a torch attached would help.
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A helmet with a torch attached would help.
Again this would just have a radius of around 2 feet.
Do you think Bamber having driven the route hundreds od times would help him if he decided to cycle it?
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'The route was easy and it would have been equally simple at night with the available ambient light'.'
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I do agree with Bullet Proof's assessment on the BHF route. After he had cycled the route.
Google Maps shows the route is an open area. With no trees or hedges on either side.
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Again this would just have a radius of around 2 feet.
Do you think Bamber having driven the route hundreds od times would help him if he decided to cycle it?
He may have cycled or walked the roads.
I believe he drove.
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Again this would just have a radius of around 2 feet.
Do you think Bamber having driven the route hundreds od times would help him if he decided to cycle it?
The helmet with a torch will have helped.
All the time a b reg astra on the driveway.
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'The route was easy and it would have been equally simple at night with the available ambient light'.'
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I do agree with Bullet Proof's assessment on the BHF route. After he had cycled the route.
Google Maps shows the route is an open area. With no trees or hedges on either side.
Having driven the route probably every day for the 2nd time I agree he would be familiar with it.
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Both routes were flat open areas. Night time vision would be good in August. The terrain on both routes was good to perfect.
He was under no time pressures on the way there. Going by his actions it seems he felt he had no/minimal time restrictions on the way back.
He knew 80% of the BHL route from driving it hundreds of times. He already knew or had time to get familiar with The Sea Wall route.
As usual, options for him.
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Both routes were flat open areas. Night time vision would be good in August. The terrain on both routes was good to perfect.
He was under no time pressures on the way there. Going by his actions it seems he felt he had no/minimal time restrictions on the way back.
He knew 80% of the BHL route from driving it hundreds of times. He already knew or had time to get familiar with The Sea Wall route.
As usual, options for him.
Just want to pick up on the " under no pressures time wise"
He was going to committ five times murder, he was not going to a barbers for a trim on his hour lunch break. Whilst you are correct that there wasnt a time limit as such, it's a case of " get there get it done dont fuck about, dont hang around, get out set the wheels in motion"
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As usual, options for him.
For me leaning heavy to a spontaneous act. Julie is talking over a 18 month period. The reality is the learning of Shelia coming to stay on the Saturday at the party and possibly some sort of argument between Shelia and Jeremy, reference Shelias diary and Jeremy's " ive been thinking on the tractor" " tonight's the night "
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He may have also recieved some news in that time period that may have effected him.
Such as plans for Shelia to move to Bourtree cottage, which I am guessing would either leave him with the option of move back to WHF, or fund alternative accommodation himself.
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Just want to pick up on the " under no pressures time wise"
He was going to committ five times murder, he was not going to a barbers for a trim on his hour lunch break. Whilst you are correct that there wasnt a time limit as such, it's a case of " get there get it done dont fuck about, dont hang around, get out set the wheels in motion"
Agree he was not going to the barbers.
He was under no time restrictions on the way there.
Going by the long gap between his call to Julie & Chelmsford police, he did not believe he was under big time restrictions on the way back.
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If I was cycling The Sea Wall to avoid properties, I would get to it via the back garden & adjoining field.
Bit weird cycling it to avoid properties while simultaneously cycling up Head & Fish Street to get to it's entrance.
But up to him. As usual options.
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The aim is to get it done quickly and get away.
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Going by the long gap between his call to Julie & Chelmsford police, he did not believe he was under big time restrictions on the way back.
Disagree, points to personal time in " getting some story straight before I speak to police "
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Going by Google Maps, the last 500 metres of the BHF route, he would have to cycle alongside fields. This leads to the back of WHF.
The BHF farm track disintegrates into fields after it passes it's last property.
If it was not possible to cycle that 500 metres, he would have to walk it.
The Sea Wall route takes him to WHF on Pages Lane.
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The road route takes him direct to WHF.
Park the motor on pages lane, and saunter down.
Back up the lane, boom in the astra back to GH.
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For me leaning heavy to a spontaneous act. Julie is talking over a 18 month period. The reality is the learning of Shelia coming to stay on the Saturday at the party and possibly some sort of argument between Shelia and Jeremy, reference Shelias diary and Jeremy's " ive been thinking on the tractor" " tonight's the night "
The "it's now or never" remark is telling. It suggests he knew this was his one opportunity for mass annihilation, an occasion unlikely to reoccur, as the lightning strike had damaged the mobile telephone, the lifeline to the outside world in the master bedroom having also been removed whether by happenstance or subterfuge, leaving the Bambers defenceless upon their adoptive son entering the master bedroom replete with .22 Anschütz rifle and black ski mask, having already dispatched twin boys in the room adjacent with three shots in the head to Nicholas and five to Daniel respectively.
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The "it's now or never" remark is telling. It suggests he knew this was his one opportunity for mass annihilation, an occasion unlikely to reoccur, as the lightning strike had damaged the mobile telephone, the lifeline to the outside world in the master bedroom having also been removed whether by happenstance or subterfuge, leaving the Bambers defenceless upon their adoptive son entering the master bedroom replete with .22 Anschütz rifle and black ski mask, having already dispatched twin boys in the room adjacent with three shots in the head to Nicholas and five to Daniel respectively.
I personally don't believe he wore any type of mask.
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For me for the cycle the brook house farm track is risky.
As it makes ID risky. Even on the small percent. Being on the bike allows someone to ID him positively. They would see him in fully body form. His family and him were well known in the area. His father was a prominent man and employer.
The car allows cover somewhat as nobody will notice a car going past or take great note because they'd have no idea it was out to committ murder.
No one is going to memorise a reg number.
But someone can say " I saw Jeremy on a bike"
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To be honest walking, although longer may have been a good bet.
He can wear a baseball cap, hat, scarf to conceal his ID, he can duck into alleyways if anybody goes past etc. To be honest though this may be extreme.
Being out at that time of night if a police patrol car happened to drive past him he'd risk a pull over, walk bike or car. They will think he is out robbing.
Talking the brook house farm track.
Don't see it as " too tiring " as Adam says he would be determined 500k was at stake.
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The road route takes him direct to WHF.
Park the motor on pages lane, and saunter down.
Back up the lane, boom in the astra back to GH.
The road route via BHL he would have to walk 500 metres if driving.
The road route via Pages Lane he will have to walk a similar distance down Pages Lane.
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To be honest walking, although longer may have been a good bet.
He can wear a baseball cap, hat, scarf to conceal his ID, he can duck into alleyways if anybody goes past etc. To be honest though this may be extreme.
Being out at that time of night if a police patrol car happened to drive past him he'd risk a pull over, walk bike or car. They will think he is out robbing.
Talking the brook house farm track.
Don't see it as " too tiring " as Adam says he would be determined 500k was at stake.
Agree cycling the BHL route is more risky than The Sea Wall route.
Disagree he would walk either route.
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Disagree he would walk either route.
Why do you disbelieve he would walk?
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The CT are saying he couldnt cycle at all because " he would have a limit of 10 minutes "
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Why do you disbelieve he would walk?
Too long. Too tiring.
He had a bike.
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Too long. Too tiring.
He had a bike.
It's not long though for a fit healthy guy is it.
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It's not long though for a fit healthy guy is it.
It is. A 140 minute round trip via The Sea Wall he would certainly need to sit down on the park bench.
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Wilkinson's 16 minutes per mile walking The Sea Wall route sounds reasonable.
However his 8 minutes per mile cycling is too slow.
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He can just walk the road way.
Baseball cap scarf etc
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A much better and sharper aerial view of the farm track linking WHF and BHF from mapcarta. Zoom in using your mouse wheel or the + sign bottom right. Then change the view to Satellite by clicking on the wavy flag in the top left corner -
https://mapcarta.com/W248138154/Map
The actual farmhouse whose frontage faces South, is to the East, which is now hidden from the farm track by hedges (and possibly was in '85 too); those buildings with the same label to the West are for working in or barns for machinery storage/livestock.
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/photos/item/IOE01/11178/14
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/413125
I think Bamber could easily have sped along the unmetalled track on his bike in the middle of the night without being seen or heard from BHF. In his Astra, possibly but not so much.
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A much better and sharper aerial view of the farm track linking WHF and BHF from mapcarta. Zoom in using your mouse wheel or the + sign bottom right. Then change the view to Satellite by clicking on the wavy flag in the top left corner -
https://mapcarta.com/W248138154/Map
The actual farmhouse whose frontage faces South, is to the East, which is now hidden from the farm track by hedges (and possibly was in '85 too); those buildings with the same label to the West are for working in or barns for machinery storage/livestock.
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/photos/item/IOE01/11178/14
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/413125
I think Bamber could easily have sped along the unmetalled track on his bike in the middle of the night without being seen or heard from BHF. In his Astra, possibly but not so much.
How far is it from Brook House Farm to White House Farm? Where would the yellow, sulphurous mud have been accumulated and I wonder why Robert Boutflour couldn't find evidence of fresh bike tracks?
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How far is it from Brook House Farm to White House Farm? Where would the yellow, sulphurous mud have been accumulated and I wonder why Robert Boutflour couldn't find evidence of fresh bike tracks?
Using mapcarta's own scale, roughly 3,600 ft or 7 tenths of a mile between them. Mud from any water-filled depressions along the way presumably. Bike tracks hard to distinguish days after the event on a well-compressed gravel road driven over daily by cars, tractors and other heavy vehicles.
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Doubt anyone would recognise Bamber cycling the BHF route.
Someone would have to be outside at 1.00am - 3.00am just to see a cyclist. Doubtful in GH.
Or someone would have to be looking through there window at 1.00am - 3 00am. Although some of the properties are a long way from the road so unlikely to see a cyclist at night.
There was no street lighting and he could travel quickly on the perfect terrain of roads.
He could put head gear on.
If someone did see him, the worst that could happen is over a month later he says he remembered seeing a man on a bike on the 7th August. This could be challenged by the defence.
Security cameras could be more of a problem for him.
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Obvious why the prosecution said he cycled The Sea Wall - it passed no properties.
If the prosecution said he cycled the BHF route, the defence could counter by saying no one saw him & no security cameras recorded him.
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Cant fault the prosecution for using the sea wall theory and I can see why they did even though I dont believe so.
Via the road route, Walk, car, or cycle I dont believe personally he would have been identified. I would wager probably 98 percent of people would have been in bed at the material time. I dont believe nobody would have rushed to the window to see the car leave etc etc. But in terms of visual on the chance he was. Being on foot or cycling offers more chance of a positive ID than the car.
The biggest risk for him would have been a police patrol car clocking him while they were on duty. A man out at that time is seen by the police as being up to no good.
Other than that only foxes or cats would have clocked him.
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Doubt anyone would recognise Bamber cycling the BHF route.
Someone would have to be outside at 1.00am - 3.00am just to see a cyclist. Doubtful in GH.
Or someone would have to be looking through there window at 1.00am - 3 00am. Although some of the properties are a long way from the road so unlikely to see a cyclist at night.
Unlikely to see a car or on foot either.
Seems many believe the car engine will wake up the neighbours and they will jump out of bed and run to the window.
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To me the defence couldnt put much on the point " about nobody seeing him "
It was a heartbeat style village. Not picadilly circus.
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Security cameras could be more of a problem for him.
Doubtful to be honest but at the same time not 100 percent sure either way.
If anything I would have expected a farm premises like WHF to have them, what with expensive agricultural machinery and farms being prone to burglaries.
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Wilkes's book says the judge does mention The Sea Wall in his summing up.
Repeating what Julie testified - he planned to leave his car at home & cycle The Sea Wall to avoid being seen.
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Really need someone to go there at night in August and film.
All we have had is a day time audio from Phillip/Yvonne & a day time visit from Trudie.
Seems The Doc Maker is not going to or has already visited at night but did not like the results.
Disappointing in 40 years. The last 20 years people have been able to use there mobiles to film.
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Really need someone to go there at night in August and film.
All we have had is a day time audio from Phillip/Yvonne & a day time visit from Trudie.
Seems The Doc Maker is not going to or has already visited at night but did not like the results.
Disappointing in 40 years. The last 20 years people have been able to use there mobiles to film.
Last Sunday I took a picture from the view of my chalet in East Yorkshire that overlooks a farm and farmers field. It is a good open area very similar to the sea wall. A rural area.
The photo was on this site. It was pitch black. 10.30pm at night.
You seem to have a view that the sea wall is like no other place of that style in the night period. There is no time difference in any part of the UK.
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Back in April AI did seem to agree with me.
However disagreed that Bamber didnt know the route.
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Back in April AI did seem to agree with me.
However disagreed that Bamber didnt know the route.
Seems the defence did not claim it would be too dark at trial.
The judge just repeated what Julie had testified in his summing up.
I do agree with both sides that is was possible but there was no proof he did. Except for the bike.
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Seems the defence did not claim it would be too dark at trial.
The judge just repeated what Julie had testified in his summing up.
I do agree with both sides that is was possible but there was no proof he did. Except for the bike.
Did RB think he went via the sea wall?
I know he investigated routes. Would be intimate with the area.
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Seems the defence did not claim it would be too dark at trial.
They rode heavy on the fact nobody had seen him.
For me it doesnt really amount to much due to the location and area. Car, walk, and bike the road he could have all done without being seen at 2am in a sleepy quiet village.
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AI -
A 22 rifle is generally not the preferred choice for fox control due to concerns about its effectiveness and potential for causing unnecessary suffering. While it can be used at close range with proper shot placement, it lacks the power and range needed for consistent, humane kills at longer distances.
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The bullets are very small. Similar to the tip of a pen.
Nevill or June would instantly reclaim a rifle so weak from Sheila.
If Sheila did have knowledge of the weapons at WHF, she would know that rifle would not intimidate Nevill or June.
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AI -
A 22 rifle is generally not the preferred choice for fox control due to concerns about its effectiveness and potential for causing unnecessary suffering. While it can be used at close range with proper shot placement, it lacks the power and range needed for consistent, humane kills at longer distances.
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The bullets are very small. Similar to the tip of a pen.
Nevill or June would instantly reclaim a rifle so weak from Sheila.
If Sheila did have knowledge of the weapons at WHF, she would know that rifle would not intimidate Nevill or June.
I dont follow.
The rifle has been used in warfare.
This man who we are discussing, as you believe massacred five people with it. ( in fairness convicted of doing so)
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AI
While .22 caliber rifles are not standard issue for front-line combat, they are sometimes used in warfare, particularly in specific scenarios like training, covert operations, and by some specialized units. Their low noise and minimal recoil make them suitable for certain tasks, but their limited range and penetration make them unsuitable for general combat use.
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Limited range and penetration. Rob said they could drop an elephant from half a mile away.
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Limited range and recoil would have been useful.
It is a very lightweight rifle with very small bullets. Can see why it will injure but not kill foxes.
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Limited range and recoil would have been useful.
It is a very lightweight rifle with very small bullets. Can see why it will injure but not kill foxes.
A .22 rimfire rifle will kill foxes and people but because it limited in power it requires accuracy.
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A .22 rimfire rifle will kill foxes and people but because it limited in power it requires accuracy.
Jeremy would know that, but I doubt Sheila would.
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Jeremy would know that, but I doubt Sheila would.
I agree, but that is no indicater of guilt.
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Limited range and recoil would have been useful.
It is a very lightweight rifle with very small bullets. Can see why it will injure but not kill foxes.
It killed human beings and has been used in warfare.
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It killed human beings and has been used in warfare.
You have already said that.
Post 218 does relate to the warfare claim.
As said 18 shots were close range head/neck shots. Nevill may have been dead after the kitchen atrack.
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Jeremy would know that, but I doubt Sheila would.
Most importantly Nevill would know. So would instantly reclaim the rifle from someone as unfuctional as Sheila.
In the unlikely event that Bamber, Nevill & June had not put it away.
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Most importantly Nevill would know. So would instantly reclaim the rifle from someone as unfuctional as Sheila.
In the unlikely event that Bamber, Nevill & June had not put it away.
I have always said its possible he had to retrieve the rifle.
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Currently visibility farmers field, east Yorkshire 22.20pm
How much moonlight was there?
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AI -
Yes, it is generally easier to cycle in the dark if you know the area, as familiarity with the route can help you navigate and anticipate potential hazards, even with reduced visibility, according to Kwik Fit and Cycleplan. Knowing the route allows you to anticipate turns, understand where the road is uneven, and mentally prepare for any obstacles.
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He was brought up and worked at WHF and lived at GH. So would be familar with The Sea Wall route.
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AI -
Yes bike lights in 1985 were generally less effective than those available today. Modern bike lights offer significantly brighter, longer-lasting, and more compact options due to advancements in LED and battery technology.
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Doubt that he used a bike light as no benefit to him.
Phillip said he could be seen with a bike light as it was an open area.
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In April I asked AI about the sea wall. The results are on the site.
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Do agree it is important to be familiar with an area in order to travel in darkness.
That is a reason why so many villages have no street lighting. The residents live there so can travel around at night due to being familar.
I do not agree with Rob that people will get lost in there back gardens without lighting.
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The Sea Wall had no lighting as no one would be on it at night. Rather than people lived there & could travel at night due to familarity.
Similar to GH/TD, Bamber could cycle on it as he was familar with it & it was cycle friendly.
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Julie arrived at Bourtree probably August 2nd 85. The Friday.
Reports to see the beg up bike August 4th.
Jeremy and Julie spend a full capacity in weekend together.
Julie admits he didn't mention nothing about killing his family.
But going back to the bike seems almost conjured one can argue?
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For me, the more I look at the case from a neutral the guilt perspective has all the hallmarks of a co conspiratorial, and not Adams " passive collaborator.
Bamber didnt have, or did Julie mention the adequate time to coach her according to WS.
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Julie arrived at Bourtree probably August 2nd 85. The Friday.
Reports to see the beg up bike August 4th.
Jeremy and Julie spend a full capacity in weekend together.
Julie admits he didn't mention nothing about killing his family.
But going back to the bike seems almost conjured one can argue?
He mentioned about killing his family when he rang her.
The Sunday before she saw the bike.
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For me, the more I look at the case from a neutral the guilt perspective has all the hallmarks of a co conspiratorial, and not Adams " passive collaborator.
Bamber didnt have, or did Julie mention the adequate time to coach her according to WS.
It was co conspirational. Her WS says this.
She supplied him sleeping pills & made suggestions.
I do believe her when she says she did not believe he would do anything.
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It was co conspirational. Her WS says this.
She supplied him sleeping pills & made suggestions.
I do believe her when she says she did not believe he would do anything.
In the immediate aftermath of the massacre. Bamber made many solo trips, accountant, solicitors, bank etc.leaving JM in the close proximity to the relatives. At times by all accounts in quite an emotional state.
He must have been confident
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She supplied him sleeping pills & made suggestions.
We will never know for certain the extent.
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It was co conspirational. Her WS says this.
She supplied him sleeping pills & made suggestions.
I do believe her when she says she did not believe he would do anything.
I once conspired with my neighbour to poison my cousin. Our chosen method was using dandelion sap, and mixing it with milk. We gave up after squeezing the sap from half a dozen dandelions! I was 5 or 6 at the time. My cousin went on to lead a full and active life.
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For me, the more I look at the case from a neutral the guilt perspective has all the hallmarks of a co conspiratorial, and not Adams " passive collaborator.
Bamber didnt have, or did Julie mention the adequate time to coach her according to WS.
But Julie returned to Caterham Road, Lewisham. Why not stay the night and corroborate the call from Nevill?
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But Julie returned to Caterham Road, Lewisham. Why not stay the night and corroborate the call from Nevill?
Her WS says he did not ask her to stay longer.
More of a passive collaborator in a crime she never thought would happen.
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Her WS says he did not ask her to stay longer.
More of a passive collaborator in a crime she never thought would happen.
She stayed until the funerals were over. But then she says she wants to leave but is persuaded not to (Sheet 17). I didn't read anything about the night of Tuesday 7 August. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10043.0.html
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She stayed until the funerals were over. But then she says she wants to leave but is persuaded not to (Sheet 17). I didn't read anything about the night of Tuesday 7 August. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10043.0.html
We have to remember Julie's WS on this particular point may be entirely self serving and not completely accurate.
Julie did return to London, but carried on being in a relationship with Jeremy. This is not unusual in itself. Pre massacre they didnt live together and spent time together only in their free time.
Jeremy was shagging one of the greaves sisters, and then dumped Julie. That's what tipped her over the edge.
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Her WS says he did not ask her to stay longer.
He jilted her.
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If she was heavily on board with the plans and Jeremy did this it just highlights what a fucking idiot Jeremy was back in 1985.
Cheating on and dumping a women who knows your secret. How he thought that there would be no backlash from it is anybodies guess.
Don't think him scaring Julie by saying " she would be up to her neck in it with him " would put her off approaching police, friends, relatives etc long term anyway.
She was a 20 year old girl, eventually she would have to unburden herself.
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But Julie returned to Caterham Road, Lewisham. Why not stay the night and corroborate the call from Nevill?
I think she went home on the Sunday evening. Jeremy would have spent the Monday night alone.
Work commitments I believe.
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He jilted her.
She jilted him on the 27th August. By leaving him to return to her life in London. Even freebie jolly ups didn't persuade her to stay.
That is what I call being jilted.
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She stayed until the funerals were over. But then she says she wants to leave but is persuaded not to (Sheet 17). I didn't read anything about the night of Tuesday 7 August. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10043.0.html
Brett was his soul mate post massacre.
Julie didn't want that life. Espescially knowing where the money was coming from.
Wonder if Brett was there for the long haul. Don't think he had much to go back to.
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She jilted him on the 27th August. By leaving him to return to her life in London. Even freebie jolly ups didn't persuade her to stay.
That is what I call being jilted.
No she didnt, she returned to london but they carried on the relationship.
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No she didnt, she returned to london but they carried on the relationship.
They kept in contact. But she was not going on any more jolly ups with him.
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Can understand why supporters say Bamber 'jilted' Julie. They have to explain why she -
Started telling other people after 20 days.
Approached the police after 30 days.
Completed a 23 page WS within 24 hours.
Testified on her WS.
Has not retracted a word in 40 years.
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Even a 'jilted' Julie it is wildly optimistic to think she would go on such a savage solo revenge mission. Accusing a man of 5X murder.
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Can understand why supporters say Bamber 'jilted' Julie. They have to explain why she -
Started telling other people after 20 days.
Approached the police after 30 days.
Completed a 23 page WS within 24 hours.
Testified on her WS.
Has not retracted a word in 40 years.
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Even a 'jilted' Julie it is wildly optimistic to think she would go on such a savage solo revenge mission. Accusing a man of 5X murder.
Bamber jilted Julie.
What's so difficult for you to understand about it?
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Can understand why supporters say Bamber 'jilted' Julie. They have to explain why she -
Started telling other people after 20 days.
Approached the police after 30 days.
Completed a 23 page WS within 24 hours.
Testified on her WS.
Has not retracted a word in 40 years.
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Even a 'jilted' Julie it is wildly optimistic to think she would go on such a savage solo revenge mission. Accusing a man of 5X murder.
Always suspect that Ainsley, SJ etc knew she was probably up to her neck with it as much as he was but needed her to be utilised. For them as long as Bamber went down it would be a victory.
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Bamber jilted Julie.
What's so difficult for you to understand about it?
Just going by her WS & Bamber's own actions of constantly ringing her, bringing her to WHF & taking her on his jolly ups.
If I thought it was a clear cut jilting by him, I would say. There is no way any scorned woman would accuse the man of 5X murder as revenge.
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Just going by her WS & Bamber's own actions of constantly ringing her, bringing her to WHF & taking her on his jolly ups.
She was his girlfriend. Of course he will want to see her.
He had proposed marriage at some point prior. So obviously was in love with her at some point. No denying it.
However after the massacre, he dumped her.
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Maybe had Brett not arrived on the scene the two would have stayed together. Or least for longer anyway.
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She was his girlfriend. Of course he will want to see her.
He had proposed marriage at some point prior. So obviously was in love with her at some point. No denying it.
However after the massacre, he dumped her.
There is nothing in her WS saying that.
But appreciate supporters have to say this. Although it is an incredibly weak reason to give for Julie to do what she did from the 27th August 1985.
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Maybe had Brett not arrived on the scene the two would have stayed together. Or least for longer anyway.
Her WS suggests this also.
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There is nothing in her WS saying that.
But appreciate supporters have to say this. Although it is an incredibly weak reason to give for Julie to do what she did from the 27th August 1985.
Or to save her own neck.
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Or to save her own neck.
Saving her own skin was another reason.
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I think she went home on the Sunday evening. Jeremy would have spent the Monday night alone.
Work commitments I believe.
But he's not telling her everything about the murder plans, or he would have suggested she corroborate a call from Nevill on the Wednesday morning.
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But he's not telling her everything about the murder plans, or he would have suggested she corroborate a call from Nevill on the Wednesday morning.
To have her to come over and into the vicinity with EP not knowing how she would act or react means he was extremeley confident and reckless or she was on board.
Ditto his solo trips alone in the aftermath leaving Julie with the relatives.
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Saving her own skin was another reason.
You know full well that had Bamber not left her for one of the greaves sisters she wouldn't have gone to EP.
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But he's not telling her everything about the murder plans, or he would have suggested she corroborate a call from Nevill on the Wednesday morning.
We are never going to know exactly what's what between Jeremy Julie.
One party maintaining total innocence.
The other suggesting he did it and quite possibly minimising her own involvment real feelings in the WS.
For EP they used her for a result.
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But he's not telling her everything about the murder plans, or he would have suggested she corroborate a call from Nevill on the Wednesday morning.
Why would she be in Goldhanger? It was a weekday. She had a job in a children's adventure playground and lived in South east london.
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You know full well that had Bamber not left her for one of the greaves sisters she wouldn't have gone to EP.
Are you referring to the phone call of the 4th September 1985?
Very optimistic to think she only went to the police because of that. She had already -
Tried to leave Bamber on the 17th August.
Left him on the 27th August.
Told 5 people between the 27th August - 4th September.
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Saving her own skin was another reason.
Most guilters I have come across have the view of Florence nightingale, women broke free Mugford.
Seems only Hardyboy believe she is complicit.
For me I agree with Hardy, don't buy the babe in the woods act.
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Are you referring to the phone call of the 4th September 1985?
Very optimistic to think she only went to the police because of that. She had already -
Tried to leave Bamber on the 17th August.
Left him on the 27th August.
Told 5 people between the 27th August - 4th September.
Bamber was shagging her while he was still with Julie.
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Most guilters I have come across have the view of Florence nightingale, women broke free Mugford.
Seems only Hardyboy believe she is complicit.
For me I agree with Hardy, don't buy the babe in the woods act.
She was complicit. It is in her WS.
Obviously she did not believe he would kill his mother, father, sister, 2 six year olds & blame his sister.
It is not a regular occurence.
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She was complicit. It is in her WS.
Obviously she did not believe he would kill his mother, father, sister, 2 six year olds & blame his sister.
It is not a regular occurence.
Complicit for me is her being fully invested in the idea of Bamber killing everyone for the money and her only pulling out because he left her for another women.
You yourself have referenced her bringing tablets to goldhanger.
She was remarkably stoic in the immediate aftermath.
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Bamber was shagging her while he was still with Julie.
Between the 7th August - 27th August?
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Between the 7th August - 27th August?
Yes.
One of the sisters said he was asking her for advice on how to leave Julie.
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Why would she be in Goldhanger? It was a weekday. She had a job in a children's adventure playground and lived in South east london.
The fact that she kept the part-time jobs and her studies as a teacher suggests it wasn't the money which attracted her to him. In the early days when he used to stay with her in the hall of residence she told him she didn't want the expensive presents. She also suggested he leave the family altogether, to which he replied: "I've got too much to lose."
Had she been in it from the beginning she would have taken a cavalier attitude to her employment and focused on how best to succeed with the murder plot.
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Complicit for me is her being fully invested in the idea of Bamber killing everyone for the money and her only pulling out because he left her for another women.
You yourself have referenced her bringing tablets to goldhanger.
She was remarkably stoic in the immediate aftermath.
Please read #273.
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Yes.
One of the sisters said he was asking her for advice on how to leave Julie.
How did he find the time?
He was with Julie, the relatives, Basil Cock, friends, Brett & the police 24/7.
Seems Julie was not aware as it is not in her WS.
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The fact that she kept the part-time jobs and her studies as a teacher suggests it wasn't the money which attracted her to him. In the early days when he used to stay with her in the hall of residence she told him she didn't want the expensive presents. She also suggested he leave the family altogether, to which he replied: "I've got too much to lose."
Had she been in it from the beginning she would have taken a cavalier attitude to her employment and focused on how best to succeed with the murder plot.
In it for the money she would have accepted June's offer to buy her a house.
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The fact that she kept the part-time jobs and her studies as a teacher suggests it wasn't the money which attracted her to him. In the early days when he used to stay with her in the hall of residence she told him she didn't want the expensive presents. She also suggested he leave the family altogether, to which he replied: "I've got too much to lose."
Had she been in it from the beginning she would have taken a cavalier attitude to her employment and focused on how best to succeed with the murder plot.
Not nessecarily, she was a skint student without resources. She had to keep up appearances.
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How did he find the time?
He was with Julie, the relatives, Basil Cock, friends, Brett & the police 24/7.
Seems Julie was not aware as it is not in her WS.
We're the police sleeping with him?
How did he find time to shag a woman?
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Not nessecarily, she was a skint student without resources. She had to keep up appearances.
Well, a leopard doesn't change its spots. You can't keep up appearances for 40 years without the mask slipping at some stage.
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The fact that she kept the part-time jobs and her studies as a teacher suggests it wasn't the money which attracted her to him. In the early days when he used to stay with her in the hall of residence she told him she didn't want the expensive presents. She also suggested he leave the family altogether, to which he replied: "I've got too much to lose."
Had she been in it from the beginning she would have taken a cavalier attitude to her employment and focused on how best to succeed with the murder plot.
I never said she was initially attracted to to him because of the money. He was a good looking bloke, she wasnt bad looking. They just formed a relationship. Its obvious Bamber spearheaded the whole thing.
But I strongly believe she would be on board and heavily invested and only went to Stan because of Jeremy's infidelitys.
" you mean I either carry on the relationship with you or I confess "
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Well, a leopard doesn't change its spots. You can't keep up appearances for 40 years without the mask slipping at some stage.
She is in a safe haven, as Jeremy has always maintained innocence. He cant implicate Julie as it would scupper his freedom fight.
Had he confessed back in 1985, he would have probably brought her down with him.
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I never said she was initially attracted to to him because of the money. He was a good looking bloke, she wasnt bad looking. They just formed a relationship. Its obvious Bamber spearheaded the whole thing.
But I strongly believe she would on board and heavily invested only went to Stan because of Jeremy's infidelitys.
" you mean I either carry on the relationship with you or I confess "
It has the ring of truth about it.
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We're the police sleeping with him?
How did he find time to shag a woman?
It is the first I have heard that he was seeing another women between the 7th - 27th August.
While on countless jolly ups around the country and with Julie 24/7.
Are you getting carried away again?
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I do agree he asked another woman out in front of Julie on the 4th September.
He knew Julie was staying in London & felt safe.
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He did see another woman after the 27th August.
This was in St Tropez. Julie would not know about that.
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It is the first I have heard that he was seeing another women between the 7th - 27th August.
While on countless jolly ups around the country and with Julie 24/7.
Are you getting carried away again?
" man shags women " stop the press.
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Anji ( the other sister) claims she was shagging Jez as well before.
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Anji says " Julie was inflamed with jealously "
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Anji ( the other sister) claims she was shagging Jez as well before.
I know beforehand.
During the 7th - 27th he was with Julie 24/7. All around the country and in Amsterdam.
Whether Julie knew about anything beforehand is doubtful. She lived in London.
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Think Anji Greaves was trying to make a buck from the newspapers.
Julie said in her WS he asked another woman out in front of her. If she was aware of anything else, her WS would say.
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I know beforehand.
During the 7th - 27th he was with Julie 24/7. All around the country and in Amsterdam.
Whether Julie knew about anything beforehand is doubtful. She lived in London.
Jeremy was based at maida Vale most of the time after the massacre.
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Think Anji Greaves was trying to make a buck from the newspapers.
In fairness to Anji, she supported him after charge and visited him all the time while he was on remand prior to trial. It may have been a genuine love and she genuinely believed him innocent. Seems as well they were seeing each other in some capacity before the massacre or just after it.
Remember it was never " the bastard got caught scenario" Bamber always maintained innocence.
Naturally they parted company after he was jailed for life.
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Jeremy was based at maida Vale most of the time after the massacre.
Who was the women he asked out in front of Julie?
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Think Anji Greaves was trying to make a buck from the newspapers.
Julie said in her WS he asked another woman out in front of her. If she was aware of anything else, her WS would say.
He was speaking to her sister Virginia on the telephone in Shelias flat. Julie went ape shit.
Seems Jeremy was having dalliances with both sisters.
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Was Bambers valium intake for show or was he genuinely anxious at the time?
He did turn to alcohol heavily after the crime, albeit not a heavy drinker before hand.
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Jeremy was based at maida Vale most of the time after the massacre.
Well isn't that a surprise.
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Well isn't that a surprise.
Not really, it was his deceased sisters flat that was now effectively his.
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Agree Julie did not like him asking another woman out in front of her. It is in her WS.
She did try to terminate the call. But he called her back.
By now Julie had returned to London and told 5 people.
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Anji says " Julie was inflamed with jealously "
Sounds like hack speak.
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Sounds like hack speak.
It is from CAL.
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Agree Julie did not like him asking another woman out in front of her. It is in her WS.
She did try to terminate the call. But he called her back.
By now Julie had returned to London and told 5 people.
Look what ever happened we can agree had Jeremy confessed Julie may have found herself in different circumstances.
We will never know.
However suspect Ainsley and co had their suspicions.
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Agree Julie did not like him asking another woman out in front of her. It is in her WS.
She did try to terminate the call. But he called her back.
By now Julie had returned to London and told 5 people.
Cant believe Julie never mentioned Jeremy's plans in girlie talk in the proceeding months if she didnt think he was being serious.
Girls talk.
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Look what ever happened we can agree had Jeremy confessed Julie may have found herself in different circumstances.
We will never know.
However suspect Ainsley and co had their suspicions.
Do you think he was goading Julie when he rang the woman back after she had terminated the call?
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Not really, it was his deceased sisters flat that was now effectively his.
..and the real reason Daniel and Nicholas had to be dispatched.
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Do you think he was goading Julie when he rang the woman back after she had terminated the call?
But by your own view they had parted and she had left him.
He was in his own property.
He can talk to who he wants as a free agent.
So what is it?
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But by your own view they had parted and she had left him.
He was in his own property.
He can talk to who he wants as a free agent.
So what is it?
What is it?
For me he was goading and disrespecting her. He had given her enough stress since telling her 'tonights the night'.
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Not sure how Julie & Bamber were going to stay together.
She had left him on the 27th to return to her second degree & job in London.
He was going to continue continue travelling.
Anyway it was certainly over on the 7th Sept when Julie approached the police.
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What is it?
For me he was goading and disrespecting her. He had given her enough stress since telling her 'tonights the night'.
Had he though?
If she was fully on board?
Why even ring Julie otherwise?
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Not sure how Julie & Bamber were going to stay together.
She had left him on the 27th to return to her second degree & job in London.
He was going to continue continue travelling.
It only went tits up in my opinion due to Brett arriving on the scene.
Jeremy he had paid for her a holiday for them both only to then agree to pay for Julie's friend as he couldn't go.
Had Brett not been on the scene I believe the two would have stayed together.
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What is it?
For me he was goading and disrespecting her. He had given her enough stress since telling her 'tonights the night'.
She smashed a mirror and chucked a Chinese box.
Bamber was on the phone calmly reiterating what Julie was doing.
Brett and an antique dealer was down the hallway.
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Later that night Bamber and Julie went to bed together.
The latter put a pillow over his head and tried to smother him " so he would always be with her, and hid his car keys"
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Had he though?
If she was fully on board?
Why even ring Julie otherwise?
Going by her WS she was not fully on board. Who would be? It was killing men, women & children.
Bamber's family problems was not her problem. If she wanted money she could have let June buy her a house.
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She smashed a mirror and chucked a Chinese box.
Bamber was on the phone calmly reiterating what Julie was doing.
Brett and an antique dealer was down the hallway.
I know. It is in her WS.
She had left Bamber 8 days earlier and told 5 people. So was already going to go to the police.
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Later that night Bamber and Julie went to bed together.
The latter put a pillow over his head and tried to smother him " so he would always be with her, and hid his car keys"
I know. It is in her WS.
She had left Bamber 8 days earlier and told 5 people. So was already going to go to the police
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The mountain of forensic evidence & failed submissions confirms Bamber's guilt.
So Julie's WS is all correct. Very unlikely Bamber kept quiet for 18 months. He gave her a running commentry on the night & spent the next 20 days with her
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If Bamber & Brett were not due to help Julie move on the 6th Sept, there is a possibility she would have approached the police on the 4th-6th September.
If she had managed to leave him on the 17th August, which she attempted to do, it is likely she would have approached the police in August.
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I know. It is in her WS.
She had left Bamber 8 days earlier and told 5 people. So was already going to go to the police
She hadnt left him him in the conventional sense she had just returned to london. The relationship carried on.
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The mountain of forensic evidence & failed submissions confirms Bamber's guilt.
So Julie's WS is all correct. Very unlikely Bamber kept quiet for 18 months. He gave her a running commentry on the night & spent the next 20 days with her
With her fully invested and on board.
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The mountain of forensic evidence & failed submissions confirms Bamber's guilt.
So Julie's WS is all correct. Very unlikely Bamber kept quiet for 18 months. He gave her a running commentry on the night & spent the next 20 days with her
Don't understand why you are going on about Bambers guilt in this instance.
You used to be very pro Florence nightingale Julie
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Going by her WS she was not fully on board. Who would be? It was , women & children.
Myra Hindley and Rose West.
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Myra Hindley and Rose West.
You really can't compare them to Julie. Myra Hindley drove the car to the moors and was complicit. Rose West killed stepdaughter Charmaine whilst Fred was in prison.
-
After Julie left him on the 27th August they met on the -
29th August - Julie's birthday which would have been pre arranged. Brett in attendence.
31st August - Bamber initiated it to tell Julie he could not go on holiday with her. He offerred to pay for her to go on holiday with Liz.
---------
Obviously the 4th September was when it was certainly over. Julie delaying her police approach until Bamber & Brett had helped her move on the 6th. Which would have been another pre arranged meeting.
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You really can't compare them to Julie. Myra Hindley drove the car to the moors and was complicit. Rose West killed stepdaughter Charmaine whilst Fred was in prison.
I wasn't making a comparison of crimes but merely pointing age age isnt nessecarily a barrier to be on board or commit evil acts.
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Cant blame for Julie being upset at the jilting.
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Lady of the manor dream gone et al.
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The mountain of forensic/circumstantial evidence & appalling applications to the CCRC/COA confirm Bamber's guilt.
I do not believe he kept quiet to Julie & she did a 'hit & hope' to the police on the 7th because he asked another woman out in front of her on the 4th.
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I've heard of 'hit & hope' & in snooker 'shot to nothing'.
But Julie knew she had more chance of becoming SuperWoman than being successful going to the police a month after the massacre, if he had said nothing.
-
After Julie left him on the 27th August they met on the -
29th August - Julie's birthday which would have been pre arranged. Brett in attendence.
31st August - Bamber initiated it to tell Julie he could not go on holiday with her. He offerred to pay for her to go on holiday with Liz.
---------
Obviously the 4th September was when it was certainly over. Julie delaying her police approach until Bamber & Brett had helped her move on the 6th. Which would have been another pre arranged meeting.
To nitpick for one moment Chapter 13 of Blood Relations tells us Julie's birthday was on the Monday, the late summer Bank Holiday, which was the 26 August. The party was held on Thursday 29.
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To nitpick for one moment Chapter 13 of Blood Relations tells us Julie's birthday was on the Monday, the late summer bank holiday, which was the 26 August. The party was held on Thursday 29.
That is nit picking.
Bamber & Brett were there for Julie's birthday.
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The mountain of forensic/circumstantial evidence & appalling applications to the CCRC/COA confirm Bamber's guilt.
I do not believe he kept quiet to Julie & she did a 'hit & hope' to the police on the 7th because he asked another woman out in front of her on the 4th.
I am on the fence.
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I am on the fence.
Remind me to sharpen the points so that you fall on the side where the grass is greener.
-
I am on the fence.
You say all non expert WS's were fabricated to frame Bamber.
Strange fence.
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You say all non expert WS's were fabricated to frame Bamber.
Strange fence.
Have I?
-
Have I?
Do you now believe the WS's of -
JM
AE
DB
RB
PB
Susan Battersby
BW
CC
Anthony Pargether
Peter Eaton
Heather Amos
Jean Bouttell
Pamela Boutflour.
Helen Eaton
The police
The raid team.
James Richards
----------
You really need to believe or not believe each WS in full. Not cherry pick bits you believe & bits you do not believe.
I believe each WS in full.
-
Have I?
You do tend to select information which portrays Jeremy Bamber in a favourable light, rarely deviating from his cause.
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You do tend to select information which portrays Jeremy Bamber in a favourable light, rarely deviating from his cause.
He did quote two sections of Julie's WS yesterday - smashed mirror & pillow incident. So seems he believes these.
While simultaneously saying Julie in her WS is lying about Bamber talking to her about the massacre.
-
Do you now believe the WS's of -
JM
AE
DB
RB
PB
Susan Battersby
BW
CC
Anthony Pargether
Peter Eaton
Heather Amos
Jean Bouttell
Pamela Boutflour.
Helen Eaton
The police
The raid team.
James Richards
----------
You really need to believe or not believe each WS in full. Not cherry pick bits you believe & bits you do not believe.
I believe each WS in full.
So which version of DB's statement do you believe? did he see blood paint on the silencer when the silencer was found at WHF or latter at AEs house?
Do you believe Cook's statement where he says there was not a serious fight or is it you who is cherry picking?
Why no mention of finding the silencer in AE's notes
Why does West have two statements with differing times when the call came in? etc etc etc.
If you believe the statements in full perhaps you can let us know which version?
-
If ILB does not believe any of the above dozens of WS's, that is fine.
But then saying he is 'on the fence' is strange. Phillip & Yvonne would be proud of his fire fighting.
-
If ILB does not believe any of the above dozens of WS's, that is fine.
But then saying he is 'on the fence' is strange. Phillip & Yvonne would be proud of his fire fighting.
I don't like statements that contradict, for example West painstakingly rewrites his log because EP could not afford a photocopier so you would think he would know the time the call came in, then produces two statements with both the 3.26 and 3.36 times in them, how bizarre!
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I don't like statements that contradict, for example West painstakingly rewrites his log because EP could not afford a photocopier so you would think he would know the time the call came in, then produces two statements with both the 3.26 and 3.36 times in them, how bizarre!
At least you say you are a supporter and are consistent in not believing any of the above WS's.
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I don't like statements that contradict, for example West painstakingly rewrites his log because EP could not afford a photocopier so you would think he would know the time the call came in, then produces two statements with both the 3.26 and 3.36 times in them, how bizarre!
What about David Bird. He makes a statement saying he found seven items DB1-DB7 in his 24/10/85 statement and in another statement on the same day he only found DB6 a pair of blue socks. Also of note is the JR statement where she says the police were still monitoring the 999 line when she left work at 08.00am when the logs clearly state that the line was closed at 07.47.
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If ILB does not believe any of the above dozens of WS's, that is fine.
But then saying he is 'on the fence' is strange. Phillip & Yvonne would be proud of his fire fighting.
How does the witness statement of Heather Amos ( et al some of the others indicate Jeremy's guilt?
You dont half talk some shit sometimes.
-
How do BW and CCs WS indicate JB is gulity?
-
Pamela Boutflour made one WS, that didn't highlight JBs guilt.
-
How does James Richards WS prove JB is guilty?
-
JM
AE
DB
RB
PB
Susan Battersby
BW
CC
Anthony Pargether
Peter Eaton
Heather Amos
Jean Bouttell
Pamela Boutflour.
Helen Eaton
The police
The raid team.
James Richards
----------
ILB is entitled to say all of the above lied in there WS's to frame Jeremy. While simultaneously defend Bamber on everything. Which is what he has always done.
To then claim he is 'on the fence' is not acceptable. He has known about the case for decades so this stance is impossible.
Everyone interested in the case long term, needs to be proud of there stance. Not ashamed.
-
Saying the non expert WS's lied to frame Jeremy but the expert WS's didn't lie, does not work either.
The expert WS's & Bamber's appalling applications to the CCRC/COA confirm his guilt. So no reason why the non experts should lie in there WS's.
-
Has Adam ever answered a question directly?
-
JM
AE
DB
RB
PB
Susan Battersby
BW
CC
Anthony Pargether
Peter Eaton
Heather Amos
Jean Bouttell
Pamela Boutflour.
Helen Eaton
The police
The raid team.
James Richards
----------
ILB is entitled to say all of the above lied in there WS's to frame Jeremy. While simultaneously defend Bamber on everything. Which is what he has always done.
To then claim he is 'on the fence' is not acceptable. He has known about the case for decades so this stance is impossible.
Everyone interested in the case long term, needs to be proud of there stance. Not ashamed.
I dont have a stance. I'm not persuaded beyond reasonable doubt either way.
30 odd years ago Jeremy told me he didnt do it.
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Saying the non expert WS's lied to frame Jeremy but the expert WS's didn't lie, does not work either.
How does the witness statements of Heather Amos, James Richards, Barbara Wilson, Jean Boutell, Susan Battersby prove Jeremy Bamber is a killer?
2nd request.
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How does the witness statements of Heather Amos, James Richards, Barbara Wilson, Jean Boutell, Susan Battersby prove Jeremy Bamber is a killer?
2nd request.
They all contribute.
You can't claim they all lied & then claim you are 'on the fence'.
Do you still think SB lied to back up JM's false WS?
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I dont have a stance. I'm not persuaded beyond reasonable doubt either way.
30 odd years ago Jeremy told me he didnt do it.
You do have a stance as all of your posts support Bamber.
Being a supporter is fine. There are others. Just don't say you are 'on the fence'.
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They all contribute.
You can't claim they all lied & then claim you are 'on the fence'.
Do you still think SB lied to back up JM's false WS?
To give a cover answer the times are all over the place as we have discussed prior.
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You do have a stance as all of your posts support Bamber.
Being a supporter is fine. There are others. Just don't say you are 'on the fence'.
I am on the fence.
-
They all contribute.
No they don't.
-
To give a cover answer the times are all over the place as we have discussed prior.
You said SB saying Julie told her 'we may hear from Jeremy later' was a lie to back up JM's false WS.
That is very pro Jeremy.
-
I am on the fence.
Don't be intimidated by the likes of Leo Mckinsty calling supporters 'creepy'.
Prove them wrong.
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You said SB saying Julie told her 'we may hear from Jeremy later' was a lie to back up JM's false WS.
That is very pro Jeremy.
SBs, JMs and JW times are all over the place.
-
Don't be intimidated by the likes of Leo Mckinsty calling supporters 'creepy'.
Prove them wrong.
I am on the fence.
You are a strange character.
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SBs, JMs and JW times are all over the place.
So you think SB lied in her WS.
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So you think SB lied in her WS.
SBs JM and JW times are all over the place.
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SBs JM and JW times are all over the place.
Do you believe Julie lied in her WS regarding the conversations she said she had with Bamber regarding the massacre?
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Do you believe Julie lied in her WS regarding the conversations she said she had with Bamber regarding the massacre?
She may have done they aren't concrete they are accusations.
As said I dont believe that over a 18 month period JM didnt confide in her best friend SB at any stage about Jeremy's weird ramblings.
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She may have done they aren't concrete they are accusations.
As said I dont believe that over a 18 month period JM didnt confide in her best friend SB at any stage about Jeremy's weird ramblings.
She did confide to her. On the 27th August.
Do you agree with CC that Sheila had no hand to eye co ordination, could not communicate with the twins & had no experience with a rifle?
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She did confide to her. On the 27th August.
Do you agree with CC that Sheila had no hand to eye co ordination, could not communicate with the twins & had no experience with a rifle?
CC had Shelia help prepare food for guests at his housewarming party days before the massacre. Have to balance it with Shelia holding part time jobs, having friends, going out socially and planning holidays.
Shelia probably did have problems with motherhood in some respects. I wasn't there was you ?
In regards to experience to guns, The. 22 is not complicated. But admit Jeremy has said different things about Shelias weapon prowess.
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She did confide to her. On the 27th August.
Do you not think that if Julie felt Jeremy was talking bollocks and just ranting about his massacre plans Julie wouldnt have mentioned it to her best friend SB in the 18 month period in girly chat?
Pre massacre.
' he comes out with some real weird shit "
" he hates his family he says he is planning to kill them, he doesnt half talk some bollocks "
Girls confide in each other.
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CC had Shelia help prepare food for guests at his housewarming party days before the massacre. Have to balance it with Shelia holding part time jobs, having friends, going out socially and planning holidays.
Shelia probably did have problems with motherhood in some respects. I wasn't there was you ?
In regards to experience to guns, The. 22 is not complicated. But admit Jeremy has said different things about Shelias weapon prowess.
So CC lied.
Do you agree with Jean Rowe that fixed items around the kitchen sink had been moved after the 6th August?
Bulletproof said the rifle is complicated.
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Dont see CC having full custody of the twins as a bad point to Shelia.
He was the boys father. Shelia had mental health problems. It seems the two managed to co-parent.
I deeply warmed to CC after reading his book.
-
So CC lied.
Do you agree with Jean Rowe that fixed items around the kitchen sink had been moved after the 6th August?
That's the telephone operator, you mean Boutell the house keeper?
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That's the telephone operator, you mean Boutell the house keeper?
Yes. Do you believe she lied?
-
So CC lied.
CC supported Jeremy in the initial stages. He never said " There's no way she could have done this, he is pictured comforting Jeremy at the funerals. He didnt have a monetary incentive like the relatives.
CC may now believe JB gulity but there was a time when he accepted Shelia had done it.
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Yes. Do you believe she lied?
No, but that doesn't mean Bamber interfered with them either. Or had to move them.
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No, but that doesn't mean Bamber interfered with them either. Or had to move them.
Do you believe it strongly suggests Bamber exited out of the kitchen window?
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Do you believe it strongly suggests Bamber exited out of the kitchen window?
No.
June or Nevill could have had a tidy up.
Open ended.
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Do you believe it strongly suggests Bamber exited out of the kitchen window?
Doesn't " strongly suggest anything "
Items rearranged.
-
Was Boutell at the farm 6.8.85?
From memory she worked at WHF 2, or 3 days a week.
She later expressed the opinion that she felt neither Jeremy or shelia were responsible.
-
Doesn't " strongly suggest anything "
Items rearranged.
Are you sure you are not a supporter?
Do you agree with AE that it would have taken him 2 minutes to get to his downstairs phone. Due to the ackward stairs?
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Are you sure you are not a supporter?
Do you agree with AE that it would have taken him 2 minutes to get to his downstairs phone. Due to the ackward stairs?
Awkward stairs in Bourtree Cottage?
What has that got to do with the kitchen condiments in WHF?
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Awkward stairs in Bourtree Cottage?
What has that got to do with the kitchen condiments in WHF?
Yes Bourtree cottage.
Do you agree with David Boutflour that the sights and silencer were on the rifle just before the massacre. And that the silencer did not have a scratch?
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Yes Bourtree cottage.
Do you agree with David Boutflour that the sights and silencer were on the rifle just before the massacre. And that the silencer did not have a scratch?
When was DB last at WHF?
And metal scratches.
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You said SB saying Julie told her 'we may hear from Jeremy later' was a lie to back up JM's false WS.
That is very pro Jeremy.
Do you believe SB would have had suspicion that Jeremy had done it from the outset due to mutual dislike and what Julie said?
-
When was DB last at WHF?
And metal scratches.
Are you sure you are not a supporter?
Do you agree with the 15+ raid team officers who said Nevill was on the coal scuttle/chair upon entrance?
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Do you believe SB would have had suspicion that Jeremy had done it from the outset due to mutual dislike and what Julie said?
Are you sure you are not a supporter?
You seem to be saying SB created a false WS & was prepared to lie under oath. To frame Bamber.
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Are you sure you are not a supporter?
You seem to be saying SB created a false WS & was prepared to lie under oath. To frame Bamber.
Im on the fence.
You really are an idiot.
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https://youtube.com/shorts/rMnDSaJa1po?si=mn6Jt3gxa6RdEn_t
This is a park bench on The Sea Wall. Not sure if it is the same one Trudie sat on in her vlog as there may be more than one.
Doubt that Jeremy physically used it. But seeing it when cycling will help him know where about he was in this 3 mile section of his cycle ride.
The 1 mile cycle ride up Pages Lane he will see WHF early on as it is so big.
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https://youtu.be/Ed9FpGsNlRU?si=VQVvLTjf8kHnvzvc
Here is another new video. At 2 minutes 30 - 3 mimutes you can see some of the route he cycled
I would certainly cycle to it's entrance via the field which adjoined 9, Head Street. Only 200 metres.
All the videos I have seen, the Sea Wall is empty. During the day! No properties in sight.
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Always had the two extremes with people who do not believe he cycled.
Rob says he can't go into his garden at night.
ILB says there are 3.00am BBQ's on Jeremy's Sea Wall route.
I don't agree with either.
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https://youtu.be/Ed9FpGsNlRU?si=VQVvLTjf8kHnvzvc
Here is another new video. At 2 minutes 30 - 3 mimutes you can see some of the route he cycled
I would certainly cycle to it's entrance via the field which adjoined 9, Head Street. Only 200 metres.
All the videos I have seen, the Sea Wall is empty. During the day! No properties in sight.
The route was nothing like that in 1985 as you well know.
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The route was nothing like that in 1985 as you well know.
Wilkinson said it was good, flat terrain.
What was it like? Please provide sources.
Why did the defence not say anything?
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https://youtu.be/Ed9FpGsNlRU?si=VQVvLTjf8kHnvzvc
Here is another new video. At 2 minutes 30 - 3 mimutes you can see some of the route he cycled
I would certainly cycle to it's entrance via the field which adjoined 9, Head Street. Only 200 metres.
All the videos I have seen, the Sea Wall is empty. During the day! No properties in sight.
Thanks for that Adam, it’s brought memories back for me. Like Wilkinson said it’s a well defined footpath about 6’ wide. Styles can be negotiated without difficulty. The shortest practicable way (able to be done or put into practice successfully) is the sea wall?
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I can't quite get my bearings. Which route did he (allegedly) cycle and where is Bourtree Cottage on the video at 3:09? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Head_Street,_Goldhanger,_to_White_House_Farm,_Tolleshunt_D%27Arcy_(cropped).jpg
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I can't quite get my bearings. Which route did he (allegedly) cycle and where is Bourtree Cottage on the video at 3:09? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Head_Street,_Goldhanger,_to_White_House_Farm,_Tolleshunt_D%27Arcy_(cropped).jpg
If I can Steve I’ll try and do the sea wall route on my Komoot mapping and show you. I’m not promising though.
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https://youtube.com/shorts/rMnDSaJa1po?si=mn6Jt3gxa6RdEn_t
This is a park bench on The Sea Wall. Not sure if it is the same one Trudie sat on in her vlog as there may be more than one.
Doubt that Jeremy physically used it. But seeing it when cycling will help him know where about he was in this 3 mile section of his cycle ride.
The 1 mile cycle ride up Pages Lane he will see WHF early on as it is so big.
I don't see him cycling past the workers' cottages. It's just too risky. If he did cycle he would arrive at the back entrance to White House Farm.
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I don't see him cycling past the workers' cottages. It's just too risky. If he did cycle he would arrive at the back entrance to White House Farm.
He wouldn't cycle past those as he arrives at WHF before then.
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I can't quite get my bearings. Which route did he (allegedly) cycle and where is Bourtree Cottage on the video at 3:09? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Head_Street,_Goldhanger,_to_White_House_Farm,_Tolleshunt_D%27Arcy_(cropped).jpg
Steve, A is WHF and B is Head street, for some reason after point 1 it doesn’t let me join the sea wall, it diverts me across the field first.
Point A to 1 is pages lane
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Steve, A is WHF and B is Head street, for some reason after point 1 it doesn’t let me join the sea wall, it diverts me across the field first.
Point A to 1 is pages lane
Right. That's a lot clearer. So how many residential dwellings does he pass, given that he takes part of the trip via the sea wall and part via fields? Or does it not involve both?
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Right. That's a lot clearer. So how many residential dwellings does he pass, given that he takes part of the trip via the sea wall and part via fields? Or does it not involve both?
Ill try to highlight them in the Map Steve give me a while
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Right. That's a lot clearer. So how many residential dwellings does he pass, given that he takes part of the trip via the sea wall and part via fields? Or does it not involve both?
None really, he only hits properties once he gets to Goldhanger.
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Right. That's a lot clearer. So how many residential dwellings does he pass, given that he takes part of the trip via the sea wall and part via fields? Or does it not involve both?
He would pass one property. Wyke Farm on Pages Lane. That looks a long way from Pages Lane. So won't be seen or heard on a bike.
No properties within hundreds of yards on The Sea Wall.
He can get to The Sea Wall from his back garden and adjoining field. Passing no properties.
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None really, he only hits properties once he gets to Goldhanger.
What do think of ILB's claim that there would have been BBQ's on Bamber's Sea Wall route between 2.00am - 3.00am?
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What do think of ILB's claim that there would have been BBQ's on Bamber's Sea Wall route between 2.00am - 3.00am?
I don’t, it isn’t an over populated area between WHF and Gold hanger along that part of the Wall, if at all., I would never say never, but on that part of the Wall? Not saying they Didn’t further along the Coast at Osea?
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I don’t, it isn’t an over populated area between WHF and Gold hanger along that part of the Wall, if at all., I would never say never, but on that part of the Wall? Not saying they Didn’t further along the Coast at Osea?
I'd say that's correct. Any barbeques would be in a more accessible area, not one where everything has to be dragged across fields before it can be set up. The areas within the parameter of Osea would be perfect.
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I have heard of beach & house BBQ's. At 3.00pm in the afternoon.
A 2.00am - 3.00am BBQ on a Tuesday somewhere as remote as that section of The Sea Wall is the strangest thing I have ever heard of. Espescially as there was no artificial light.
What would happen if they ran out of burgers?
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I have heard of beach & house BBQ's. At 3.00pm in the afternoon.
A 2.00am - 3.00am BBQ on a Tuesday somewhere as remote as that section of The Sea Wall is the strangest thing I have ever heard of. Espescially as there was no artificial light.
What would happen if they ran out of burgers?
Precisely!!!
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I have heard of beach & house BBQ's. At 3.00pm in the afternoon.
A 2.00am - 3.00am BBQ on a Tuesday somewhere as remote as that section of The Sea Wall is the strangest thing I have ever heard of. Espescially as there was no artificial light.
What would happen if they ran out of burgers?
Ever seen Jaws, Adam?
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Steve, A is WHF and B is Head street, for some reason after point 1 it doesn’t let me join the sea wall, it diverts me across the field first.
Point A to 1 is pages lane
Where did you get this route from HB?
From point 5 I would have thought Bamber would have dropped down onto the sea wall?
Also from point 2 to Pages Lane is all of this possible on a bike looks rough track/edges of fields to me ?
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Where did you get this route from HB?
From point 5 I would have thought Bamber would have dropped down onto the sea wall?
Also from point 2 to Pages Lane is all of this possible on a bike looks rough track/edges of fields to me ?
Sorry Rob, I’ve only just seen your Post, I didn’t put it up for it being solely the one Bamber may have took, it was just to illustrate to Steve the actual area?
I take all my cycling maps from Komoot, it gets the most updated mapping for cyclists, from Open street maps and over 11 million community members, so Members who do the rides update the routes. It may not always be the quickest like google, but it’s cyclist driven.
Your right what your saying, it doesn’t let me drop from Pages lane straight into the sea wall, there seems to be a gap anyway? I think a better option is to miss pages lane out?
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Don't think the weather or brightness was an issue to Bamber.
He worked outside in all weather in daylight or darkness.
The main thing for him was that he knew the way, it was cycle friendly, not too far & passed no properties.
He had to go anyway as Sheila was going back to London soon. He had no control over the weather on the night.
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He was lucky it was summer when night time vision is better.
However just as likely he would have felt it was 'now or never' if Sheila & the twins had visited 3 months later. Being a bit darker outside would not stop him.
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He was lucky it was summer when night time vision is better.
However just as likely he would have felt it was 'now or never' if Sheila & the twins had visited 3 months later. Being a bit darker outside would not stop him.
"Don't blame yourself..I would have gone ahead with it anyway."
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He was lucky it was summer when night time vision is better.
However just as likely he would have felt it was 'now or never' if Sheila & the twins had visited 3 months later. Being a bit darker outside would not stop him.
It would not have been any darker 3 months later assuming the Moon was at the same phase and elevation.
For imaging you could have started around 11pm and finish approx 3am so it would have been fully dark during the expected time JB would have been cycling.
If we go back a month to July 7th for example there is no true astro darkness.
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AI:
During the summer months, much of the UK does not experience "true night" (total darkness), remaining instead in various stages of twilight.
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Believe Bamber was pretty fit in 1985.
Working on a farm for long hours will make him fit. Was 24 & slim. The injuries to Nevill show he was strong.
The cycle ride would not be difficult for him.
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AI:
During the summer months, much of the UK does not experience "true night" (total darkness), remaining instead in various stages of twilight.
True but August 8th is 7 weeks on from the June summer solstice.
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AI:
During the summer months, much of the UK does not experience "true night" (total darkness), remaining instead in various stages of twilight.
I think the wording Much of the Uk, applies to more North than South around August 7th. I think further South you would start to see periods of total Darkness?
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There has been a lot of false claims about The Sea Wall route by ILB & Rob -
3am BBQ's.
Steep inclines.
Too dangerous
Doesn't adjoin Pages Lane.
Not accessible by bike.
People cannot go into there back gardens at night as too dark.
Gunfire Graffiti wore night vision goggles.
Jeremy would not know the way.
Jeremy could not get access to the field adjoining his back garden.
Dogs in gardens would bark & wake up residents in the field adjoining his back garden.
Jeremy could not lift the bike over the 2 styles.
The Sea Wall was different in 1985.
Jeremy would get a sore bottom (Snow).
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Think people get carried away.
The defence stance was it was possible but it doesn't mean he did.
The CT say Wilkinson was not the same size as Jeremy and cycled it during the day.
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has anyone ever come forward to say they were at a BBQ that night on the sea wall?
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has anyone ever come forward to say they were at a BBQ that night on the sea wall?
Not yet.
Not sure why anyone would have a BBQ at 3.00am on a Tuesday. Everyone is usually sleeping.
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Not yet.
Not sure why anyone would have a BBQ at 3.00am on a Tuesday. Everyone is usually sleeping.
It would be Wednesday by then. Weren't the barbecues part of the Osea Road social activities anyway, which was a fair way distant.
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Not yet.
Not sure why anyone would have a BBQ at 3.00am on a Tuesday. Everyone is usually sleeping.
maybe being saved for the next CCRC application