Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on March 05, 2025, 05:24:PM
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/board,11.0.html
I will go through these over the next few days. Will be some interesting facts.
Just found out there was blood on the kitchen cupboards. This must have sprayed off Nevill.
The loud speaker was used for 'about 2 hours'.
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Says there was a double barrelled shot gun in the back office.
Maybe Nevill was going downstairs for that.
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All the statements say the same thing about Nevill's position. Most commenting on how severe his head injuries were.
Obviously the aga ground will be dismissed.
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Bamber told the police two of the ground floor doors have 3 & 4 bolts.
The kitchen door had one key lock in the door. He did not have a spare key.
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I believe the noise that PC Hall reported hearing upstairs at 7:40am was Sheila shooting herself as he was approaching the stairs.
Supposedly it could have been PC Rozga on the other side of the house in the upstairs office. Yet evidence contradicts this, nor does it make sense.
Furthermore a contact shot is going to be muffled by what ever the muzzle is in contact with.
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I believe the noise that PC Hall reported hearing upstairs at 7:40am was Sheila shooting as he was approaching the stairs.
Supposedly it could have been PC Rozga on the other side of the house in the upstairs office. Yet evidence contradicts this, nor does it make sense.
Furthermore a contact shot is going to be muffled by what ever the muzzle is in contact with.
You want us to believe that the police surgeon, with decades of experience and president of the Association of Police Surgeons, was unable to determine that SC had taken her own life less than an hour before he certified her death?
38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night. The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand. In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been self-inflicted.
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I believe the noise that PC Hall reported hearing upstairs at 7:40am was Sheila shooting herself as he was approaching the stairs.
Supposedly it could have been PC Rozga on the other side of the house in the upstairs office. Yet evidence contradicts this, nor does it make sense.
Furthermore a contact shot is going to be muffled by what ever the muzzle is in contact with.
Why do you think Sheila kept herself alive for over 4 hours after Nevill's 'around 3.10am' call?
Why did she decide to shoot herself when the police entered?
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If Nevill got downstairs and got hold of a loaded shot gun, he would have two good options.
Tell Bamber to stop & give him the chance to.
Shoot him if he didn't.
So I do not agree Bamber left Nevill to go downstairs while he shot June. Nevill with a shot gun is too much of a threat.
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Several raid team members mention the injuries to the back of Nevill's head.
This would be from bullets 5-8 as well as strikes by the rifle.
All the raid team report June as being dead by the bedroom door. Which refutes the claim that she was still alive and was shot by the police.
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Several raid team members mention the injuries to the back of Nevill's head.
This would be from bullets 5-8 as well as strikes by the rifle.
All the raid team report June as being dead by the bedroom door. Which refutes the claim that she was still alive and was shot by the police.
Why cater for the lowest common denominator?
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Why do you think Sheila kept herself alive for over 4 hours after Nevill's 'around 3.10am' call?
Why did she decide to shoot herself when the police entered?
Same reason why Michael Ryan kept himself alive for three hours after the police arrived. A lot easier to kill others than yourself.
Sergeant Brightwell: "You are surrounded by armed police. Do as you are told and no harm will come to you."
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Michael Ryan: "It's funny. I killed all those people but I haven't got the guts to blow my own brains out."
Mind you. Between 2000 to 2019, 60% of mass shooters in states did not take or attempt to take their own lives. James Holmes just surrendered to the police more or less as they showed up.
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Same reason why Michael Ryan kept himself alive for three hours after the police arrived. A lot easier to kill others than yourself.
Sergeant Brightwell: "You are surrounded by armed police. Do as you are told and no harm will come to you."
...
Michael Ryan: "It's funny. I killed all those people but I haven't got the guts to blow my own brains out."
Mind you. Between 2000 to 2019, 60% of mass shooters in states did not take or attempt to take their own lives. James Holmes just surrendered to the police more or less as they showed up.
Why do you think Sheila didn't engage with the police?
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Same reason why Michael Ryan kept himself alive for three hours after the police arrived. A lot easier to kill others than yourself.
Sergeant Brightwell: "You are surrounded by armed police. Do as you are told and no harm will come to you."
...
Michael Ryan: "It's funny. I killed all those people but I haven't got the guts to blow my own brains out."
Mind you. Between 2000 to 2019, 60% of mass shooters in states did not take or attempt to take their own lives. James Holmes just surrendered to the police more or less as they showed up.
How can you attempt to draw any comparisons between Michael Ryan and Sheila Caffell and/or mass shootings in general?
Most people who carry out mass shootings have not been diagnosed with a serious mental illnes. If they had they would not have access to a firearms licence.
SC had previously discussed suicide ideation with her psychiatrist and others.
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Why do you think Sheila didn't engage with the police?
Because sadly she had already taken her own life.
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Because sadly she had already taken her own life.
Agree she was dead before the police and Jeremy arrived.
Do you agree with the judge that she a limited time to do everything - 3.10am - 3.50am.
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How can you attempt to draw any comparisons between Michael Ryan and Sheila Caffell and/or mass shootings in general?
Most people who carry out mass shootings have not been diagnosed with a serious mental illnes. If they had they would not have access to a firearms licence.
SC had previously discussed suicide ideation with her psychiatrist and others.
I think you have misrepresented David's post. Which is easier, pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at someone else, or pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at your own throat?
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I think you have misrepresented David's post. Which is easier, pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at someone else, or pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at your own throat?
Surely you can see suicide is far more common than mass shootings? Mass shootings are the equivalent of plane crashes in that they make the headlines because of the number of deaths. Suicides are like fatal car crashes in that thousands die daily but because they are so widely dispersed they do not make the headlines.
And in any event you are conflating mass shooting/suicide with family anhiliation/suicide which are completely different propositions.
I typed into Google 'statistics suicide v mass shootings'. Here's the AI generated response:
AI Overview
Learn more
In the US, suicide is more common than mass shootings, which are a small percentage of all gun violence.
Suicide
In 2021, more than half of all gun deaths in the US were suicides.
60% of gun deaths in the US are suicides.
Mass shootings
Mass shootings make up less than 1% of all gun deaths in the US.
A study found that approximately one-third to one-half of mass shooting perpetrators die by suicide during the event.
A study found that 72% of mass shooters were suicidal.
Mental health and mass shootings
Although many mass shooters have mental health problems, mental illness is not the only cause of mass shootings.
The Columbia Mass Murder Database found that approximately 5% of mass shootings are related to severe mental illness.
The Columbia Mass Murder Database found that about 25% of mass shootings are associated with non-psychotic psychiatric or neurological illnesses, including depression.
Gun laws and mass shootings
Studies have found that laws requiring permits to purchase a gun are associated with a lower incidence of mass public shootings.
Studies have found that bans on large capacity magazines are associated with fewer fatalities and nonfatal injuries when mass shootings occur.
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Surely you can see suicide is far more common than mass shootings? Mass shootings are the equivalent of plane crashes in that they make the headlines because of the number of deaths. Suicides are like fatal car crashes in that thousands die daily but because they are so widely dispersed they do not make the headlines.
And in any event you are conflating mass shooting/suicide with family anhiliation/suicide which are completely different propositions.
I typed into Google 'statistics suicide v mass shootings'. Here's the AI generated response:
AI Overview
Learn more
In the US, suicide is more common than mass shootings, which are a small percentage of all gun violence.
Suicide
In 2021, more than half of all gun deaths in the US were suicides.
60% of gun deaths in the US are suicides.
Mass shootings
Mass shootings make up less than 1% of all gun deaths in the US.
A study found that approximately one-third to one-half of mass shooting perpetrators die by suicide during the event.
A study found that 72% of mass shooters were suicidal.
Mental health and mass shootings
Although many mass shooters have mental health problems, mental illness is not the only cause of mass shootings.
The Columbia Mass Murder Database found that approximately 5% of mass shootings are related to severe mental illness.
The Columbia Mass Murder Database found that about 25% of mass shootings are associated with non-psychotic psychiatric or neurological illnesses, including depression.
Gun laws and mass shootings
Studies have found that laws requiring permits to purchase a gun are associated with a lower incidence of mass public shootings.
Studies have found that bans on large capacity magazines are associated with fewer fatalities and nonfatal injuries when mass shootings occur.
One of the definitions of a mass shooting is a 3 or more people killed or injured in the same incident. Other definitions make reference the shootings taking place in a public area.
I think you are potentially overreaching here. How many people in your suicide statistics above, had shot to death four people before taking their own life?
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One of the definitions of a mass shooting is a 3 or more people killed or injured in the same incident. Other definitions make reference the shootings taking place in a public area.
I think you are potentially overreaching here. How many people in your suicide statistics above, had shot to death four people before taking their own life?
I was answering your question:
Which is easier, pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at someone else, or pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at your own throat?
According to all the stats suicide by firearm is far more common than mass shooting.
In any event you and David are all over the place. There's no comparison between the Hungerford massacre/Michael Ryan and WHF murders/SC.
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I was answering your question:
Which is easier, pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at someone else, or pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at your own throat?
According to all the stats suicide by firearm is far more common than mass shooting.
In any event you and David are all over the place. There's no comparison between the Hungerford massacre/Michael Ryan and WHF murders/SC.
Well there is. Both involved the shooting and killing of multiple people, before suicide by gunshot. In that sense there is common ground. If you look wider, there are obvious differences. However, both people will have faced the prospect of turning the gun on themselves. Though you dispute this regarding Sheila, both people delayed.
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Well there is. Both involved the shooting and killing of multiple people, before suicide by gunshot. In that sense there is common ground. If you look wider, there are obvious differences. However, both people will have faced the prospect of turning the gun on themselves. Though you dispute this regarding Sheila, both people delayed.
No.
- MR had not been diagnosed with a mental illness whereas SC had.
- MR shot people at random whereas SC shot at those she was intimately involved with. MR said shooting his mother was a mistake!?
- MR was a gun enthusiast whereas SC was not
- There's no evidence SC delayed taking her own life
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No.
- MR had not been diagnosed with a mental illness whereas SC had.
- MR shot people at random whereas SC shot at those she was intimately involved with. MR said shooting his mother was a mistake!?
- MR was a gun enthusiast whereas SC was not
- There's no evidence SC delayed taking her own life
Do you think Sheila had killed herself before the police arrived?
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Do you think Sheila had killed herself before the police arrived?
Yes.
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Well there is. Both involved the shooting and killing of multiple people, before suicide by gunshot. In that sense there is common ground. If you look wider, there are obvious differences. However, both people will have faced the prospect of turning the gun on themselves. Though you dispute this regarding Sheila, both people delayed.
Both had unhealthy relationships with their mother.
Both killed their mother.
Both were Schizophrenic.
Both had access to weapons they really shouldn't have.
Both committed a mass shooting.
Both killed themselves.
"Dr John Hamilton, the medical director of Broadmoor, the Berkshire prison for the criminally insane, was of the opinion that Ryan was probably suffering from a form of schizophrenia and was certainly psychotic at the time he carried out the killings. He diagnosed Ryan’s disorder as paranoid schizophrenia, adding that he was in all likelihood suffering from paranoid delusions too. Dr Jim Higgins, a consultant forensic psychiatrist for Mersey Regional Health Authority, and one of the country’s leading authorities on mental illness, agreed with this diagnosis: ‘Matricide is the schizophrenic crime - that is an aphorism in forensic psychiatry. Ryan was most likely to be suffering from acute schizophrenia."
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Yes.
Do you agree with the judge that Sheila had a limited time period to do everything - 3.10am - 3.50am.
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Both had unhealthy relationships with their mother.
MR was close to his mother. The complete opposite of SC.
Both killed their mother.
MR claims he killed his mother by accident. The complete opposite of SC.
Both were Schizophrenic.
MR had no history of mental illness. SC was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.
Both had access to weapons they really shouldn't have.
MR applied for a gun licence which was granted. SC had access to firearms due to the family farm.
Both committed a mass shooting.
MR killed strangers at random. SC killed her immediate family.
Both killed themselves.
Agreed
"Dr John Hamilton, the medical director of Broadmoor, the Berkshire prison for the criminally insane, was of the opinion that Ryan was probably suffering from a form of schizophrenia and was certainly psychotic at the time he carried out the killings. He diagnosed Ryan’s disorder as paranoid schizophrenia, adding that he was in all likelihood suffering from paranoid delusions too. Dr Jim Higgins, a consultant forensic psychiatrist for Mersey Regional Health Authority, and one of the country’s leading authorities on mental illness, agreed with this diagnosis: ‘Matricide is the schizophrenic crime - that is an aphorism in forensic psychiatry. Ryan was most likely to be suffering from acute schizophrenia."
This is all after the event. MR was not diagnosed with any mental illness hence he was granted a firearms licence.
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Do you agree with the judge that Sheila had a limited time period to do everything - 3.10am - 3.50am.
What is "everything"?
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What is "everything"?
Shoot 5 people in 3 rooms. Inflict Nevill's 40+ injuries. Re loads, get June to help her lift Nevill onto the coal scuttle, burn Nevill's back. Get June's bible. Put the silencer away. Shoot herself away from the twins.
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Do you agree with the judge that Sheila had a limited time period to do everything - 3.10am - 3.50am.
There is no mention of the Judge saying that.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9404.msg438059.html#msg438059 (https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9404.msg438059.html#msg438059)
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Shoot 5 people in 3 rooms. Inflict Nevill's 40+ injuries. Re loads, get June to help her lift Nevill onto the coal scuttle, burn Nevill's back. Get June's bible. Put the silencer away. Shoot herself away from the twins.
You have forgotten the "ritual washing" which didn't happen and neither did most of the above.
She shot 4 victims several times which involved reloading. Beat NB. And shot herself.
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There is no mention of the Judge saying that.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9404.msg438059.html#msg438059 (https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9404.msg438059.html#msg438059)
It is in Wilkes's book. A chapter on the judges summing up.
It is a big question. How did Sheila do everything between 3.10am - 3.50am.
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As CC/Curiosity said, there is no evidence Sheila was alive when the police arrived.
But appreciate the CT have nothing to lose in claiming she was.
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It is in Wilkes's book. A chapter on the judges summing up.
It is a big question. How did Sheila do everything between 3.10am - 3.50am.
How much time do you think it should take?
Twins shot first, Nevil finds Sheila downstairs having already managed to reload she makes a run for it upstairs etc.
She has time to spare.
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Yes.
I would imagine everyone would have been dead by the time the police arrived, where it was Sheila or Jeremy.
Jeremy said Nevill called around 3:10am and sounded like he got cut off. 40 minutes is plenty of time to kill everyone else and herself.
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How much time do you think it should take?
Twins shot first, Nevil finds Sheila downstairs having already managed to reload she makes a run for it upstairs etc.
She has time to spare.
What evidence exists that the twins were shot first? The SoC evidence does not support this.
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What evidence exists that the twins were shot first? The SoC evidence does not support this.
I was just giving an example, however what evidence is there that the twins were not shot first?
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I was just giving an example, however what evidence is there that the twins were not shot first?
The totality of the SoC evidence by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
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The totality of the SoC evidence by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
OK but they tell us nothing about when the twins were shot, no one knows.
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OK but they tell us nothing about when the twins were shot, no one knows.
Not true. The twins were shot after June and NB.
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Not true. The twins were shot after June and NB.
Interesting Cc what have I missed that tells us this?
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Interesting Cc what have I missed that tells us this?
The totality of the soc evidence: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories, wound tracks.
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It is in Wilkes's book. A chapter on the judges summing up.
It is a big question. How did Sheila do everything between 3.10am - 3.50am.
She may have started shooting hours earlier, Adam!
After Nevill was lying against the Aga!
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Interesting Cc what have I missed that tells us this?
Julie said the twins were shot first.
It was such a big house with 3 stair cases, thick doors & walls. He would be confident enough to shoot them first. Once each.
He can test the rifle on them. Silently with the silencer.
It is a good way to get started. Killing two people with 2 bullets & having 9 bullets left.
Once he has shot the twins, there is no going back & he is pumped up. He will not hesitate in the main bedroom.
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If the twins were not shot first, they slept through a lot.
It was such a big house, with 3 stair cases, thick doors and walls. He would have been confident they would not wake. He was right.
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CAL/the police say the twins were shot with bullets 10 & 11.
Possible if he believed Nevill/June were negated sufficiently and not able to leave the bedroom. He could not risk Nevill getting hold of a loaded shot gun.
After Nevill got out of bed, thought he would keep shooting him in the main bedroom with shots 10 & 11. Regardless of how incapacitated he looked.
Adrenaline would see him empty the rifle on Nevill rather than go into the twins room.
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If the twins were not shot first, they slept through a lot.
It was such a big house, with 3 stair cases, thick doors and walls. He would have been confident they would not wake. He was right.
The rifle would sound quite loud being fired indoors, I would have thought the last thing Bamber would want is to shoot two young children while they were running around screaming, if they ran and hid they would be hard to find in such a big house.
If the shooter is Sheila I would have thought the children would naturally be first but Cc must have spotted something that I have missed?
My best guess is the Children were already shot when Nevil comes across Sheila in the kitchen, I think the shots were fired all in one go Sheila only being able to load 8 bullets into the magazine.
Perhaps Cc or someone can show me why the twins were not shot first?
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,609.msg13181.html#msg13181
Here is Woodcock's WS. This is not on the link on page 1. Will read it today.
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Woodcock says Jeremy had said he had given Sheila lessons on how to use the rifle he had left out.
The door they broke into was bolted top and bottom. Must have taken a bit of work with the sledgehammer.
Bamber told them it is usual practice for them to be bolted. Key or no key, he had to get in through a window.
Woodcock says Nevill was found with trousers down and head in a coal scuttle. A lot of damage to his head and a lot of blood on the floor.
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Woodcock says Sheila had 2 bullet wounds and her feet were 'spotlessly clean'.
He says the bed furthest from the door in Sheila's bedroom looked like someone had got out of bed.
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Jeremy bedroom was locked. It had a sign on the door saying 'Jeremy's Room'.
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Jeremy bedroom was locked. It had a sign on the door saying 'Jeremy's Room'.
Takes me back to my childhood.
I had a ceramic plate on my bedroom door with my name.
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Do you agree with the judge that she a limited time to do everything - 3.10am - 3.50am.
Although this was addressed to CC, I personally don't and as said on the other thread I believe this was massively unfair to Bamber in his summing up.
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Woodcock says Sheila had 2 bullet wounds and her feet were 'spotlessly clean'.
He says the bed furthest from the door in Sheila's bedroom looked like someone had got out of bed.
You have seen the photo Sheila's feet were not spotlessly clean and to my eyes her bed was not slept in.
Also page 5 has been retyped on a different typewriter.
When describing Sheila he uses the word "leaking" which to me means not dry?
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Woodcock says Sheila had 2 bullet wounds and her feet were 'spotlessly clean'.
Would you expect her feet to be covered in blood?
Was Nevills feet caked in blood?
She probably had nice feet, pedicures etc. I think what the officer is referring to is that her feet were not bloody.
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You have seen the photo Sheila's feet were not spotlessly clean and to my eyes her bed was not slept in.
Brought this up some years ago.
If I recall someone from memory contested that she had slept in another bed.
But I seriously doubt anyway Bamber would have made shelias bed.
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Shelias stomach shows she had potentially eaten later than the rest of the occupants of the Farm that night. ( or at least this is what the CT champion)
However I have wondered if she had an undiagnosed health condition such as GERD.
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You have seen the photo Sheila's feet were not spotlessly clean and to my eyes her bed was not slept in.
Also page 5 has been retyped on a different typewriter.
When describing Sheila he uses the word "leaking" which to me means not dry?
I have seen one photo of a foot with a bit of redness.
After doctoring a photo of Sheila's neck, surely the CT didn't do the same with a foot.
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You have seen the photo Sheila's feet were not spotlessly clean and to my eyes her bed was not slept in.
Also page 5 has been retyped on a different typewriter.
When describing Sheila he uses the word "leaking" which to me means not dry?
The typewriter was available to testify but was not called on.
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The typewriter was available to testify but was not called on.
Michael Jackson chimp to testify. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=headline+michael+jackson+chimp+to+testify&sca_esv=a39f92e395423779&sxsrf=AHTn8zrCT4FnsnaUjel1l-9IBzvLsozkLw%3A1745170034897&ei=ci4FaPbANvCfhbIPtqDO0AM&ved=0ahUKEwj2wYKAkeeMAxXwT0EAHTaQEzoQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=headline+michael+jackson+chimp+to+testify&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiKWhlYWRsaW5lIG1pY2hhZWwgamFja3NvbiBjaGltcCB0byB0ZXN0aWZ5MgQQIxgnMggQABiiBBiJBTIFEAAY7wUyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wVIsB5Q7wlYsRlwAXgBkAEAmAGJAaAB1weqAQMzLja4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgqgApkIwgIHECMYsAMYJ8ICChAAGLADGNYEGEfCAgcQIxiwAhgnwgINECMY8AUYsAIYJxjJAsICChAhGKABGMMEGAqYAwCIBgGQBgiSBwMzLjegB_Q4sgcDMi43uAeMCA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp