Raid Team Statements:

[Roch]

How can you attempt to draw any comparisons between Michael Ryan and Sheila Caffell and/or mass shootings in general?

Most people who carry out mass shootings have not been diagnosed with a serious mental illnes.  If they had they would not have access to a firearms licence. 

SC had previously discussed suicide ideation with her psychiatrist and others.

I think you have misrepresented David's post. Which is easier, pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at someone else, or pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at your own throat?

[Cambridgecutie]

I think you have misrepresented David's post. Which is easier, pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at someone else, or pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at your own throat?

Surely you can see suicide is far more common than mass shootings?  Mass shootings are the equivalent of plane crashes in that they make the headlines because of the number of deaths.  Suicides are like fatal car crashes in that thousands die daily but because they are so widely dispersed they do not make the headlines.

And in any event you are conflating mass shooting/suicide with family anhiliation/suicide which are completely different propositions. 

I typed into Google 'statistics suicide v mass shootings'.  Here's the AI generated response:

AI Overview
Learn more

In the US, suicide is more common than mass shootings, which are a small percentage of all gun violence.
Suicide

In 2021, more than half of all gun deaths in the US were suicides.
60% of gun deaths in the US are suicides.

Mass shootings
Mass shootings make up less than 1% of all gun deaths in the US.
A study found that approximately one-third to one-half of mass shooting perpetrators die by suicide during the event.

A study found that 72% of mass shooters were suicidal.
Mental health and mass shootings
Although many mass shooters have mental health problems, mental illness is not the only cause of mass shootings.

The Columbia Mass Murder Database found that approximately 5% of mass shootings are related to severe mental illness.

The Columbia Mass Murder Database found that about 25% of mass shootings are associated with non-psychotic psychiatric or neurological illnesses, including depression.
Gun laws and mass shootings

Studies have found that laws requiring permits to purchase a gun are associated with a lower incidence of mass public shootings.

Studies have found that bans on large capacity magazines are associated with fewer fatalities and nonfatal injuries when mass shootings occur.

[Roch]

Surely you can see suicide is far more common than mass shootings?  Mass shootings are the equivalent of plane crashes in that they make the headlines because of the number of deaths.  Suicides are like fatal car crashes in that thousands die daily but because they are so widely dispersed they do not make the headlines.

And in any event you are conflating mass shooting/suicide with family anhiliation/suicide which are completely different propositions. 

I typed into Google 'statistics suicide v mass shootings'.  Here's the AI generated response:

AI Overview
Learn more

In the US, suicide is more common than mass shootings, which are a small percentage of all gun violence.
Suicide

In 2021, more than half of all gun deaths in the US were suicides.
60% of gun deaths in the US are suicides.

Mass shootings
Mass shootings make up less than 1% of all gun deaths in the US.
A study found that approximately one-third to one-half of mass shooting perpetrators die by suicide during the event.

A study found that 72% of mass shooters were suicidal.
Mental health and mass shootings
Although many mass shooters have mental health problems, mental illness is not the only cause of mass shootings.

The Columbia Mass Murder Database found that approximately 5% of mass shootings are related to severe mental illness.

The Columbia Mass Murder Database found that about 25% of mass shootings are associated with non-psychotic psychiatric or neurological illnesses, including depression.
Gun laws and mass shootings

Studies have found that laws requiring permits to purchase a gun are associated with a lower incidence of mass public shootings.

Studies have found that bans on large capacity magazines are associated with fewer fatalities and nonfatal injuries when mass shootings occur.

One of the definitions of a mass shooting is a 3 or more people killed or injured in the same incident.  Other definitions make reference the shootings taking place in a public area.

I think you are potentially overreaching here. How many people in your suicide statistics above, had shot to death four people before taking their own life?

[Cambridgecutie]

One of the definitions of a mass shooting is a 3 or more people killed or injured in the same incident.  Other definitions make reference the shootings taking place in a public area.

I think you are potentially overreaching here. How many people in your suicide statistics above, had shot to death four people before taking their own life?

I was answering your question:

Which is easier, pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at someone else, or pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at your own throat?

According to all the stats suicide by firearm is far more common than mass shooting. 

In any event you and David are all over the place.  There's no comparison between the Hungerford massacre/Michael Ryan and WHF murders/SC.

[Roch]

I was answering your question:

Which is easier, pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at someone else, or pointing a gun and pulling the trigger at your own throat?

According to all the stats suicide by firearm is far more common than mass shooting. 

In any event you and David are all over the place.  There's no comparison between the Hungerford massacre/Michael Ryan and WHF murders/SC.

Well there is. Both involved the shooting and killing of multiple people, before suicide by gunshot.  In that sense there is common ground. If you look wider, there are obvious differences.  However, both people will have faced the prospect of turning the gun on themselves. Though you dispute this regarding Sheila, both people delayed.

[Cambridgecutie]

Well there is. Both involved the shooting and killing of multiple people, before suicide by gunshot.  In that sense there is common ground. If you look wider, there are obvious differences.  However, both people will have faced the prospect of turning the gun on themselves. Though you dispute this regarding Sheila, both people delayed.

No. 

- MR had not been diagnosed with a mental illness whereas SC had.
- MR shot people at random whereas SC shot at those she was intimately involved with.  MR said shooting his mother was a mistake!?
- MR was a gun enthusiast whereas SC was not
- There's no evidence SC delayed taking her own life

[Adam]

No. 

- MR had not been diagnosed with a mental illness whereas SC had.
- MR shot people at random whereas SC shot at those she was intimately involved with.  MR said shooting his mother was a mistake!?
- MR was a gun enthusiast whereas SC was not
- There's no evidence SC delayed taking her own life

Do you think Sheila had killed herself before the police arrived?

[Cambridgecutie]

Do you think Sheila had killed herself before the police arrived?

Yes.

[David1819]

Well there is. Both involved the shooting and killing of multiple people, before suicide by gunshot.  In that sense there is common ground. If you look wider, there are obvious differences.  However, both people will have faced the prospect of turning the gun on themselves. Though you dispute this regarding Sheila, both people delayed.

Both had unhealthy relationships with their mother.
Both killed their mother.
Both were Schizophrenic. 
Both had access to weapons they really shouldn't have.
Both committed a mass shooting.
Both killed themselves.


"Dr John Hamilton, the medical director of Broadmoor, the Berkshire prison for the criminally insane, was of the opinion that Ryan was probably suffering from a form of schizophrenia and was certainly psychotic at the time he carried out the killings. He diagnosed Ryan’s disorder as paranoid schizophrenia, adding that he was in all likelihood suffering from paranoid delusions too. Dr Jim Higgins, a consultant forensic psychiatrist for Mersey Regional Health Authority, and one of the country’s leading authorities on mental illness, agreed with this diagnosis: ‘Matricide is the schizophrenic crime - that is an aphorism in forensic psychiatry. Ryan was most likely to be suffering from acute schizophrenia."

[Adam]

Yes.

Do you agree with the judge that Sheila had a limited time period  to do everything - 3.10am - 3.50am.

[Cambridgecutie]

Both had unhealthy relationships with their mother.

MR was close to his mother.  The complete opposite of SC.

Both killed their mother.

MR claims he killed his mother by accident.  The complete opposite of SC.

Both were Schizophrenic. 

MR had no history of mental illness.  SC was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

Both had access to weapons they really shouldn't have.

MR applied for a gun licence which was granted.  SC had access to firearms due to the family farm.

Both committed a mass shooting.

MR killed strangers at random.  SC killed her immediate family.

Both killed themselves.

Agreed

"Dr John Hamilton, the medical director of Broadmoor, the Berkshire prison for the criminally insane, was of the opinion that Ryan was probably suffering from a form of schizophrenia and was certainly psychotic at the time he carried out the killings. He diagnosed Ryan’s disorder as paranoid schizophrenia, adding that he was in all likelihood suffering from paranoid delusions too. Dr Jim Higgins, a consultant forensic psychiatrist for Mersey Regional Health Authority, and one of the country’s leading authorities on mental illness, agreed with this diagnosis: ‘Matricide is the schizophrenic crime - that is an aphorism in forensic psychiatry. Ryan was most likely to be suffering from acute schizophrenia."

This is all after the event.  MR was not diagnosed with any mental illness hence he was granted a firearms licence.

[Cambridgecutie]

Do you agree with the judge that Sheila had a limited time period  to do everything - 3.10am - 3.50am.

What is "everything"?

[Adam]

What is "everything"?

Shoot 5 people in 3 rooms. Inflict Nevill's 40+ injuries. Re loads, get June to help her lift Nevill onto the coal scuttle, burn Nevill's back. Get June's bible. Put the silencer away. Shoot herself away from the twins.

[David1819]

Do you agree with the judge that Sheila had a limited time period  to do everything - 3.10am - 3.50am.

There is no mention of the Judge saying that.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9404.msg438059.html#msg438059

[Cambridgecutie]

Shoot 5 people in 3 rooms. Inflict Nevill's 40+ injuries. Re loads, get June to help her lift Nevill onto the coal scuttle, burn Nevill's back. Get June's bible. Put the silencer away. Shoot herself away from the twins.

You have forgotten the "ritual washing" which didn't happen and neither did most of the above.

She shot 4 victims several times which involved reloading.  Beat NB.  And shot herself.