Will look at it now.Another typical Hippo thread. More dung production.
Hopefully ILB will have better counters than with RB's WS - he is old.
Another typical Hippo thread. More dung production.
This is not aggression. I am merely repeating for the umpteenth time my dislike of his posting style
There was no aggression in Adam's previous seven posts, but your seven words are full of it. I understand answering aggression with aggression but there was none given. It rather rules out your claim to only attack when you' re attack. Just for the record, this isn't an attack. It's an observation.
This is not aggression. I am merely repeating for the umpteenth time my dislike of his posting style
I have made many pleas about this to the moderators and Roch banned him for this behaviour and not letting him do this which consists of starting lots of new threads and using multiple replies to his own posts. Now the ban is over it is back to the same old same old.
So? D'ya think constantly whinging about it will change it?
I have made many pleas about this to the moderators and Roch banned him for this behaviour and not letting him do this which consists of starting lots of new threads and using multiple replies to his own posts. Now the ban is over it is back to the same old same old.
Oh I hear its getting to you, but remember, however galling it may be, we can't change others' behaviours. We can only change our own.........and it starts with taking a few deep breaths to calm ourselves.We have already had this discussion. His behaviour is silly and makes the forum look like a computer game rather than a place of sensible dialogue.
Oh I hear its getting to you, but remember, however galling it may be, we can't change others' behaviours. We can only change our own.........and it starts with taking a few deep breaths to calm ourselves.
Have to treat anything DB says with caution.
He disliked Jeremy Bamber and was ultimately a beneficiary
What do you think is incorrect in his WS?
Which one, there are five?
Seems that Roch stopped me creating threads because one poster doesn't like them - Baby Mike.
Obviously that will never happen again.
The poster you are referring to didn't complain about you creating threads. You had temporary restrictions placed upon you. Since those restrictions began, there was an initial quiet period, which then led to the forum flourishing, with lots of debates and activity, including some your own posts. You are welcome to post on here providing you are not just playing a game for your own amusement, which fouls up the forum with hundreds of threads.
Please do not lie Roch.
The poster said in reply 11 he complained about me creating threads on the case. He is a supporter.
No one else will have complained.
I will clarify the situation in the disclaimer section.
I only recall the poster complaining about inaccurate information on the 'stolen bike' thread. The forum flourished after you were prevented from creating multiple threads. Why don't you conduct a poll regarding whether members want to return to you creating multiple threads?
This is not aggression. I am merely repeating for the umpteenth time my dislike of his posting style
I only recall the poster complaining about inaccurate information on the 'stolen bike' thread. The forum flourished after you were prevented from creating multiple threads. Why don't you conduct a poll regarding whether members want to return to you creating multiple threads?
Roch can you tell BuboBubo not to call me a hippo. Which he did in his first reply in this thread.
Thank you.
No new members. No returning members.
BuboBubo did start creating threads on his made up crime scene. You obviously prefer those threads.
This sounds in danger of becoming like a certain bank which closed someone's account because he, allegedly, didn't share their values.
Personally, I dislike lengthy posts. It's my problem, not the posters. The answer is perfectly clear. I don't read them.
I have only created 2 threads today. After 30 days of no threads. Not sure why there is such a panic!
The issue of the scratch on the silencer has never been discussed before to my knowledge.
So worthy of a thread.
DB says Bamber said to him Nevill sounded injured on the phone.That is because Nevill had just recovered from being beaten unconcious by the Aga,he was bound to sound shaky and hurt Adam.Makes sense to me,yes fits perfectly.
Not sure how he could tell from 11 words.
Says Sheila is frightened of guns. Had never seen her hold or fire a gun.Peter Eaton wasn't her dad,he didn't see her every day.
That is because Nevill had just recovered from being beaten unconcious by the Aga,he was bound to sound shaky and hurt Adam.Makes sense to me,yes fits perfectly.
Peter Eaton wasn't her dad,he didn't see her every day.
Probably only saw her on two or three occasions in her life time.
Makes none to me.
How does an injured person sound, in a panic, in the phone, with only seconds to speak?
How does an injured person sound, in a panic, in the phone, with only seconds to speak?
Yes,thats a valid point Jane.
But we don't know that he was injured, do we? The suggestion was one which JB slipped into conversation at some time later than when he called police. Had he believed his father to have been injured, surely he'd have said so, if only to hasten the arrival of the police to the scene?
I'm talking about the MASSIVE ASSUMPTION that he had just woken up from being beaten unconscious. This is purely made up stuff with no evidence to support it.
The official case is based on massive assumptions. No consideration is given to how the incident/s panned out that night. It's no good people saying 'we are not interested in finding out'.
You will never find out what happened in a house where everyone who could tell, is either dead or in prison. Words like 'maybe' or 'possibly' are increasingly missed out in favour of stating things as though they are fact. This is annoying on either side.Once Nevills back is tied to the Aga,quite a few pieces of the puzzle fall into place Zoso.Just about enough to free Bamber in my view.Which may not be worth much I grant you.
The official case is based on massive assumptions. No consideration is given to how the incident/s panned out that night. It's no good people saying 'we are not interested in finding out'.
You will never find out what happened in a house where everyone who could tell, is either dead or in prison. Words like 'maybe' or 'possibly' are increasingly missed out in favour of stating things as though they are fact. This is annoying on either side.
If you support guilt, by default you are tied to the case '85/'86. It means you have to fight and reject new discoveries, or close yourself off to them. You are free to choose that approach but I find it baffling.
The only poster who has suggested Nevill was injured when phoning Bamber's AM is ILB.
This is not a gun shot injury. He says Sheila hit a fully fit Nevill with the rifle prior to him phoning.
ILB says Sheila had also started shooting other people when Nevill started ringing Bamber's AM.
Once Nevills back is tied to the Aga,quite a few pieces of the puzzle fall into place Zoso.Just about enough to free Bamber in my view.Which may not be worth much I grant you.
If you support guilt, by default you are tied to the case '85/'86. It means you have to fight and reject new discoveries, or close yourself off to them. You are free to choose that approach but I find it baffling.
Yet you seem to readily dismiss the Aga burns Jane.
How so, Roch? Isn't it supporters who are playing the game of "Who's Going To Be First To Find The Key To Bamber's Cell"? You forget that I, and others played it when we thought he was innocent -enthusiastically aided, abetted and encouraged by the late MT who threw porkies/red herrings into the mix like they were going out of fashion- we left no stones unturned. We even created stones which never existed.
Yet you seem to readily dismiss the Aga burns Jane.
Forgive me Jane,but it makes no difference if you have ten of them.
You overlook that I have an AGA, Snow.
Forgive me Jane,but it makes no difference if you have ten of them.
If the Aga made the burns,then the Aga made the burns.Simple as that.
And what makes it worse is the fact that the handles never get scalding hot,suggesting the burns had to be formed slowly.All in Bambers favour I am afraid Jane.
If Shelia hit nevill with a rifle do you accept it could potentially cause pain? A little bit of bewilderment?
Nevill was an aging farmer, not chuck norris
In all arenas of the case I don't look at things as " he would do this he would do that " none of us were there
If Jeremy Bamber was gulity the silencer would have never been found.
Only if you then INVENT a whole new story around it, one which frankly has no evidential value.Only a limited amount of scenarios can be formed around the Aga marks Zoso,once we know how long they took to form a fairly accurate one can be produced in my opinion.
The photo of the burn marks has them in a straight line.
Two are a few centimetres apart. The third one is then around half an inch away.
Can someone show me the section of the aga that would create this.
The photo of the burn marks has them in a straight line.
Two are a few centimetres apart. The third one is then around half an inch away.
Can someone show me the section of the aga that would create this.
Why don't you watch the video Adam, instead of expecting everyone to run around doing your research.
It very nearly wasn't! But what would have been the reason for looking for one?
Early 60s certainly isn't old for a farmer, or anyone else, these days. My father renovated a cottage for me when he was in his late 70s. My partner is currently sawing wood to create a new sawing iron. The day before we met, he climbed a ladder to clear the gutter round his three story house. He's in his 90s.
If you support innocence, you're free to dream up a myriad of alternate fairy stories - one more elaborate than the other and claim that THIS TIME, it MUST be what happened, until the next one gets dreamed up. In order for Bamber to be released, you need a 'stable' idea, which stands up to scrutiny. This stuff just doesn't.
It's not a case of looking for one. If it had been used Bamber would have disposed of it.
Or at the very least cleaned it
A straight line of outside aga knobs measuring the exact measurements of Nevill's burns would be a start.
An image please.
After that it is whether these 3 knobs get hot enough.
It very nearly wasn't! But what would have been the reason for looking for one?
Early 60s certainly isn't old for a farmer, or anyone else, these days. My father renovated a cottage for me when he was in his late 70s. My partner is currently sawing wood to create a new sawing iron. The day before we met, he climbed a ladder to clear the gutter round his three story house. He's in his 90s.
Well the evidence is he disposed of it in a box in the gun cupboard.
Thank you Snow66!Boyce shows you the image on the pig skin Adam,they are taken from three parts of the Aga,not three knobs.They are the exact same spacing as the marks on Nevills back.
Wrong! it was only a case of when not if the silencer would be found.
As ILB says JB would never have left it in the cupboard in the first place, if he did he would have given it a dam good clean!
Boyce shows you the image on the pig skin Adam,they are taken from three parts of the Aga,not three knobs.They are the exact same spacing as the marks on Nevills back.
To think this is coincidence is like lightning striking in the same place twice.
Sorry my lad,its all over.
Boyce shows you the image on the pig skin Adam,they are taken from three parts of the Aga,not three knobs.They are the exact same spacing as the marks on Nevills back.
To think this is coincidence is like lightning striking in the same place twice.
Sorry my lad,its all over.
The evidence is he put it away in a box at the back of the gun cupboard.
What you think he should have done is neither here or there.
The silencer was found by a person who didn't like Bamber
So I have to treat it with caution.
David Boutflour in fairness actually himself pinpoints Jeremy Bamber smiling at the funeral at somebody " is when him and Peter Eaton had no doubt ,"
Forgive me Jane,but it makes no difference if you have ten of them.
If the Aga made the burns,then the Aga made the burns.Simple as that.
And what makes it worse is the fact that the handles never get scalding hot,suggesting the burns had to be formed slowly.All in Bambers favour I am afraid Jane.
You think the relatives tried to frame someone who Taff told them was innocent?
Well they didn't taffs word for it did they. They believed Jeremy Bamber gulity
Hence they conducted " an investigation "
Piecing a jigsaw together like WHF isn't easy. If the orthodox version of the case had credibility, we wouldn't be here.
Wrong! it was only a case of when not if the silencer would be found.
As ILB says JB would never have left it in the cupboard in the first place, if he did he would have given it a dam good clean!
Because they never get hot, it makes it less likely they were caused by it unless you invent a whole story to include it.
You have no idea what he’d have done.
Boyce shows you the image on the pig skin Adam,they are taken from three parts of the Aga,not three knobs.They are the exact same spacing as the marks on Nevills back.
To think this is coincidence is like lightning striking in the same place twice.
Sorry my lad,its all over.
To burn skin you don't need a high temperature, 40 degrees maybe a touch more tha'ts all. Then it's just a case of how long you are in contact with the source of the heat.
So saying the Aga does not get hot helps Bamber I think as it means Nevil was lying against the Aga for several hours at least.
Yes they did check the items in the gun cupboard.
They found the silencer Bamber used.
Because they never get hot, it makes it less likely they were caused by it unless you invent a whole story to include it.Do you think it is just a coincidence the marks have the exact same spacings as the parts of the Aga Zoso? What made the marks? Were they made that night? If they were made by a heated object ,why are they the same spacings as the Aga parts?
To burn skin you don't need a high temperature, 40 degrees maybe a touch more tha'ts all. Then it's just a case of how long you are in contact with the source of the heat.
So saying the Aga does not get hot helps Bamber I think as it means Nevil was lying against the Aga for several hours at least.
To burn skin you don't need a high temperature, 40 degrees maybe a touch more tha'ts all. Then it's just a case of how long you are in contact with the source of the heat.Here,here Rob,well put.
So saying the Aga does not get hot helps Bamber I think as it means Nevil was lying against the Aga for several hours at least.
Do you think it is just a coincidence the marks have the exact same spacings as the parts of the Aga Zoso? What made the marks? Were they made that night? If they were made by a heated object ,why are they the same spacings as the Aga parts?
With blood matching a blood group
Lol, if the marks came from the Aga, they would be the same size and shape but he doesn’t show the pig skin burns. I wonder why?Be carefull Zoso ,remember the back and spine are curved with discs and such,only certain parts will touch the Aga handles.
Do you think it is just a coincidence the marks have the exact same spacings as the parts of the Aga Zoso? What made the marks? Were they made that night? If they were made by a heated object ,why are they the same spacings as the Aga parts?
Because he looked for something to fit, they aren’t the same shape or size which is why he hasn’t show. The pig skin burns.He shows two of them Zoso,but as I said you cant mirror the exact shape of the marks on a bit of flat pig skin that doesn't replicate the human spine.
He shows two of them Zoso,but as I said you cant mirror the exact shape of the marks on a bit of flat pig skin that doesn't replicate the human spine.
Please provide an image of the 3 knobs in a straight line on the aga.What are you talking about Adam,Boyce shows the three parts at the end of the video,you know this!
Thank you.
What are you talking about Adam,Boyce shows the three parts at the end of the video,you know this!
Do you think it is just a coincidence the marks have the exact same spacings as the parts of the Aga Zoso? What made the marks? Were they made that night? If they were made by a heated object ,why are they the same spacings as the Aga parts?
It is clear you have not watched the video.
How many more times do I have to ask? WHICH parts of the AGA?!!! You ARE correct when you ask what made the marks. There certainly aren't enough prominent parts on the AGA to make them, but I suspect they may have been made to look that way in order to make his case good.
How many more times do I have to ask? WHICH parts of the AGA?!!! You ARE correct when you ask what made the marks. There certainly aren't enough prominent parts on the AGA to make them, but I suspect they may have been made to look that way in order to make his case good.
It is clear you have not watched the video.
Doesn't read long posts either.
Be carefull Zoso ,remember the back and spine are curved with discs and such,only certain parts will touch the Aga handles.
Have you not considered the possibility that there was something underneath him which raised him slightly. I also notice that he had very broad shoulders.
He'd need a back as wide as a Sumo wrestler for the AGA to be in contact with those "certain parts".
Have you not considered the possibility that there was something underneath him which raised him slightly. I also notice that he had very broad shoulders.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4100;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=6899;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=40859;image
Preferred your 10 word scenario.
Like what? A cushion wouldn't be adequate. Two padded seats from armchairs might -were there two armchairs in the kitchen?- but raising him might also have resulted in him slipping sideways. I have given the distances between the handles of my AGA and I believe Adam has given the dimensions of the pig skin 'wounds'. They don't correlate.Watch the video they correlate almost perfectly. There have been no pictures of the pigskin test made public so unless he can produce such he is misleading a favourite pastime he indulges in.
Blood.
Paint.
Hair.
Scratch.
Aga scratches.
Silent massacre attempt.
--------
What more do you want?
Can't remember it. I suspect there may have been more than one incident. Some kind of flare up and then a lull, which left an uneasy atmosphere, but a relief the initial incident had subsided. At this point, outside assistance wasn't requested. I think Nevill dozed off downstairs on his chair, perhaps after a nightcap. Sheila remained awake in her room, brooding over her interpretation of events. Delusional, determined and furious, she waited until it seemed everyone was asleep and crept past an exhausted Nevill to retrieve the rifle that she, but nobody else had spotted earlier.
None of that makes Jeremy Bamber conclusively gulity.
The most damning being the blood group which is not person specific
Blood grouping that matched RWB
There are another 79 pieces of forensic evidence.
What more do you want?
Thought there was 200?
You change every day
Have you not considered the possibility that there was something underneath him which raised him slightly. I also notice that he had very broad shoulders.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4100;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=6899;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=40859;image
200, 80 forensic.
Threads created on both.
What more do you want?
I don't believe the rifle/ silencer caused those scratches
Watch the video they correlate almost perfectly. There have been no pictures of the pigskin test made public so unless he can produce such he is misleading a favourite pastime he indulges in.
The truth to finally come out to be honest
It has. You & Mike are/were in denial because you met Bamber once.
I didn't meet him once, I spent time in HMP Long Lartin between 1993 1995 with him. I saw him more or less every day for over a year. Until he changed wing.
Please freeze the video at 30 seconds.You must be watching the wrong video. Try watching 1 min 46 sec to 1 min 50secs,
Then explain where the 3 knobs in a straight line are that would cause the burn marks.
So that is why you are so supportive.
Mike said he shared a cell with him for a few hours.
You must be watching the wrong video. Try watching 1 min 46 sec to 1 min 50secs,
So that is why you are so supportive.
https://youtu.be/L7h2F3MYHUwSuggest you need a new computer or a trip to spec savers. The shot of the Aga at 30 secs is too far away. It is part of the door in the lower left corner. What about 1.46 to 1.49. I will not be pissed about.
This was the one you sent me.
1.50 is a very vague close up.
Please confirm the part of the aga that could have inflicted the 3 straight line burns. Using an image of the aga at 30 seconds.
Suggest you need a new computer or a trip to spec savers. The shot of the Aga at 30 secs is too far away. It is part of the door in the lower left corner. What about 1.46 to 1.49. I will not be pissed about.
I'm not supportive of Jeremy Bamber.
Suggest you need a new computer or a trip to spec savers. The shot of the Aga at 30 secs is too far away. It is part of the door in the lower left corner. What about 1.46 to 1.49. I will not be pissed about.
You can enlarge it on Youtube so it fills the screen.
Please confirm the part of the aga.
It's poor Adam you continually play games.
You know I am asking for the part of the aga.
It fills the screen at 30 seconds.
It's poor Adam you continually play games.
How do we know those components match the burn marks? He could only work from a photograph and why hasn't he allowed us to see his burnt pig skin?
Come on with the picture I just posted you cannot together with the video work it out?
He could only work from a photograph
Even Snow66! has gone quiet.
It's poor Adam you continually play games.
Where are there 3 knobs in a straight line?
The problem is that the handle, which in the video looks flush with the other components, actually stands proud of them. It was noted that they didn't know NB's surname and they were using an "aggar". The model used is exactly the same as mine.
Who said they are knobs Adam? have another look.
The problem is that the handle, which in the video looks flush with the other components, actually stands proud of them. It was noted that they didn't know NB's surname and they were using an "aggar". The model used is exactly the same as mine.
Anything 3 in a row in a straight line.
When someone takes a photograph of Nevill's back, does it actually take a photograph of something else instead?
Does this help?
Does this help?
The handle (as Jane said) stands proud of the other parts.
Even Snow66! has gone quiet.Sorry Adam,I had to go shopping for cat food and milk,just new home.
Sorry Adam,I had to go shopping for cat food and milk,just new home.
Nothing to do with going quiet.
I think you and other guilters are playing games,the Boyce video is clear enough to understand.
Sorry Adam,I had to go shopping for cat food and milk,just new home.
Nothing to do with going quiet.
I think you and other guilters are playing games,the Boyce video is clear enough to understand.
Sorry Rob the aga making 3 specific burn marks in a straight line, then the police putting on Nevill's pyjama top is dismissed.
But supporters can still say Sheila inflicted the burns.
How do we know those components match the burn marks? He could only work from a photograph and why hasn't he allowed us to see his burnt pig skin?Because doubters like you would then claim ah but thats pig skin not human.
No one is playing games, the door handle is too proud of the other parts and who falls unconscious laying perfectly straight of their side?
Sorry Adam,I had to go shopping for cat food and milk,just new home.Yes and he has been doing this stuff for 39 years
Nothing to do with going quiet.
I think you and other guilters are playing games,the Boyce video is clear enough to understand.
Because doubters like you would then claim ah but thats pig skin not human.
Good point Adam Nevil's cloths would make the burns to his skin take longer, you really are a secrete supporter!
Yes you are but never mind, look at this.
Yes you are but never mind, look at this.
Do you think the aga burnt his skin but not his pyjama top?
Or the police put on his pyjama top?
The handle will be cool.
That is why it is called a handle.
Eh? Oh now you're qualified to know what I think? You mention that people make dumb comments - yours is a winner on that score. You just can't help sniping!As I say in another post. He is a burns expert with 39 years experience. I think Rob_ has produced excellent photographic material which answers all your questions. I guess like Doubting Thomas the Apostle you want an innocence supporter to burn themselves before you will agree.
A pyjama top is not skin Adam, do you want a source?
I've seen it. How on earth would he fall unconscious in that position? He has had to manipulate the scene with a guy who is fully conscious and in full control of his body. How does an unconscious man stay in that position or end up falling in such a position in the first place.
I've seen it. How on earth would he fall unconscious in that position? He has had to manipulate the scene with a guy who is fully conscious and in full control of his body. How does an unconscious man stay in that position or end up falling in such a position in the first place.Maybe he was pinned by an upturned chair or because he was unconscious he did not move with his left hip a little closer than his right.
I've seen it. How on earth would he fall unconscious in that position? He has had to manipulate the scene with a guy who is fully conscious and in full control of his body. How does an unconscious man stay in that position or end up falling in such a position in the first place.
The aga burn theory is so bad even Bamber did not suggest it for 38 years.That is because he is innocent and was not present.
Maybe he was pinned by an upturned chair or because he was unconscious he did not move with his left hip a little closer than his right.
As I say in another post. He is a burns expert with 39 years experience. I think Rob_ has produced excellent photographic material which answers all your questions. I guess like Doubting Thomas the Apostle you want an innocence supporter to burn themselves before you will agree.
No one is playing games, the door handle is too proud of the other parts and who falls unconscious laying perfectly straight of their side?Sorry Zoso,but the video makes everything very clear.The handle is proud and this is the reason that all three points of the Aga are touching a curved back,the three points form a curve with the middle point furthest in,CONCAVE to the handle and the other point.
He's answered all my questions has he? Well thanks for telling me that - what would we do without you telling us what we think?Guilters are always capable of mind reading. Some make a habit of it. Maybe some of it has rubbed off. Jane and Steve-uk are experts at this,
So you are happy with Nevil balancing on a chair in a position that needs rigour to keep him their, but you say the position against the Aga is impossible!
You really take the biscuit Zoso!
Sorry Zoso,but the video makes everything very clear.The handle is proud and this is the reason that all three points of the Aga are touching a curved back,the three points form a curve with the middle point furthest in,CONCAVE to the handle and the other point.
In other words we have three points of the Aga forming a curve touching a curved back/spine.Very simple.
Watch the part where the volunteer lays down,you will see the curve that the parts form against his back and Boyce comenting that they are all touching.
As for lying completely parallel to the marks,we cannot tell if this is the case,the marks are only a couple of inches long not the complete length of his back,so there is no way of knowing how parallel they are in that short distance.
No,everything is quite clear and in order Zoso.
That is because he is innocent and was not present.
Guilters are always capable of mind reading. Some make a habit of it. Maybe some of it has rubbed off. Jane and Steve-uk are experts at this,
He was present and knew how Nevill's back was burnt - rifle minus silencer.
This was his 2012 CCRC submission.
The forensic evidence confirms guilt. But you are entitled to invent new crime scenes. Not sure why you would want to.
Adam don't you think at least two of the burns to Nevil are too small to be caused by the rifle barrel?
Only if you are unbiased, open minded and honest Snow.The evidence is just too strong Rob,I just cant see how anyone can doubt the Aga made the marks.
No one believes this. The 2012 CCRC submission was based on this.
No one believes this. The 2012 CCRC submission was based on this.
Well the overworked ccrc didn't find it compellingThe best the CCRC could have done in 2011 was conclude that the silencer was absent when Nevills back was burned,if the rifle was indeed used at all which was in doubt.This would have proved very little.
Maybe the judiciary would have done
The evidence is just too strong Rob,I just cant see how anyone can doubt the Aga made the marks.
Never mind the members here,lets just hope the CCRC members are unbiased,open minded and honest.
He was present and knew how Nevill's back was burnt - rifle minus silencer.Because people like you are gullible and believe what the police say without question even when things do not seem realistic,
This was his 2012 CCRC submission.
The forensic evidence confirms guilt. But you are entitled to invent new crime scenes. Not sure why you would want to.
How can a cold handle create 3 individual burn marks?
How can a cold handle create 3 individual burn marks?
Then the police put on Nevill's PJ top!
You are a bit.
Cold Adam well maybe if turned off.
Animals and humans alike will flock to its side to warm, snuggle and lean for a good old chin-wag over a nice hot cuppa
To be fair that is a good point.It became overheated by the police burning stuff for which it was not designed. it is designed for slow burning coal or coke. Maybe they stoked it up at night so there was plenty of hot water in the morning for their guests. They had a lot of fuel in the large coal house where Bruce was kept
Well, you'll be able to work out what I'm thinking now then .......... you're welcome!Yes I am a fast learner and Jane is an excellent teacher
In fairness a handle is a source not designed to get warm as an outer element
Cold Adam well maybe if turned off.
Animals and humans alike will flock to its side to warm, snuggle and lean for a good old chin-wag over a nice hot cuppa
Two people I know with Aga's both said they can get hot to touch.Would it be fair to say that the very centre of the handle would be hottest Rob? That is,the part of the handle that was against Nevills back,because of the heat being conducted out from the oven along the splindle part of the handle.If you see what I mean.
Two people I know with Aga's both said they can get hot to touch.
I would imagine they can, but not in mid summer, in the early morning hours.Can I direct you to reply 193
Yes I am a fast learner and Jane is an excellent teacher
Two people I know with Aga's both said they can get hot to touch.
In fairness a handle is a source not designed to get warm as an outer element
It became overheated by the police burning stuff for which it was not designed. it is designed for slow burning coal or coke. Maybe they stoked it up at night so there was plenty of hot water in the morning for their guests. They had a lot of fuel in the large coal house where Bruce was kept
I'm hazarding a guess here, but I've yet to meet an AGA owner whose sole means of heat/water/cooking is their AGA -especially those with the smaller versions like ours, my parents, and the Bambers- most will have back-ups. Many turn their AGAs, if not off, turned down over the summer months. If police did an unexpected load of burning, I imagine they'd have needed to crank it up with extra fuel to facilitate such.
Quote from: Bubo bubo on Yesterday at 10:36 PM
It became overheated by the police burning stuff for which it was not designed. it is designed for slow burning coal or coke. Maybe they stoked it up at night so there was plenty of hot water in the morning for their guests. They had a lot of fuel in the large coal house where Bruce was kept
We are taliking 1980's Jane. Plenty of fuel available. Isolated Farm. Unlikely to have gas/oil. Only electric available. Could have large water heater as is used in canteens in emergecies until fixed.
It became overheated by the police burning stuff for which it was not designed. it is designed for slow burning coal or coke. Maybe they stoked it up at night so there was plenty of hot water in the morning for their guests. They had a lot of fuel in the large coal house where Bruce was kept
Jane and Bubo.. They were hardly living like Hannah Hauxwell.
Bruce the Labrador.Does this help
What were the police burning?
More over the garden fence tittle tattle. Some wealthy people do not make a show of their wealth and I have already pointed out to you the state of the back stairs of their kitchen. They were not house proud. What is more if the Aga is such a wonderful piece of equipment a breakdown would be less likely
I imagine we're both aware of that, Roch :)).................HOWever!! -and this is just between us- it's been my experience that the wealthier the family -and I'm talking OLD money as opposed to nouveau riche- the more parsimonious they are about their kitchens, and however luxurious their living quarters, much of it is generational, the 'newest' stuff either Harrods or Waring and Gillows, probably fifty years old and still referred to as being new!
Does this help
In the early stages of my investigations I was intrigued by the fire debris.
The fire debris could only be from the AGA. Surely the main house fire was not in use in August and the other cremation of evidence did not take place for a couple of days.
Of what material did this debris consist? Was any of it in a state where it could be categorically identified?
Was this thoroughness as it seems to have attracted his attention early on? Was there a strong smell of burning?
What information was sought, on The Holab3 forms for the debris, etc.? Does it still exist or was it part of the later destruction of exhibits against the Judge’s Order?
Could it have been a nightie? Could it be cloths used to wipe up blood? Was it material used in the nursing of Neville?
Later I came across the answer. The document might be on here but it is on ‘Red’. The notes are hand written by Peter Hayward
1 Pieces of blanket
2 Parts of a man’s slip on shoe
3 Part of a scarf
4 Part of an overcoat
5 Parts of a plastic mackintosh
You mean burning in the initial aftermath of August 7th 1985.Exactly
Because essentially it was a clean up operation wasn't it? The mantra at the stage was Jeremy was an innocent grieiving relative.
More over the garden fence tittle tattle. Some wealthy people do not make a show of their wealth and I have already pointed out to you the state of the back stairs of their kitchen. They were not house proud. What is more if the Aga is such a wonderful piece of equipment a breakdown would be less likely
I was not aiming at you. Also many wealthy farmers' wealth is tied up in fixed assets like property and farm equipment. Farmers have large overdraft facilities to ease cash flow until after harvest and sizeable loans to buy expensive farm equipment.
Tittle tattle?!! OUCH!!! It was meant as general observation. Real wealth is understated and has no need to flaunt itself. Our AGA is circa 1935 which verifies your comment.
Does this help
In the early stages of my investigations I was intrigued by the fire debris.
The fire debris could only be from the AGA. Surely the main house fire was not in use in August and the other cremation of evidence did not take place for a couple of days.
Of what material did this debris consist? Was any of it in a state where it could be categorically identified?
Was this thoroughness as it seems to have attracted his attention early on? Was there a strong smell of burning?
What information was sought, on The Holab3 forms for the debris, etc.? Does it still exist or was it part of the later destruction of exhibits against the Judge’s Order?
Could it have been a nightie? Could it be cloths used to wipe up blood? Was it material used in the nursing of Neville?
Later I came across the answer. The document might be on here but it is on ‘Red’. The notes are hand written by Peter Hayward
1 Pieces of blanket
2 Parts of a man’s slip on shoe
3 Part of a scarf
4 Part of an overcoat
5 Parts of a plastic mackintosh
Would it be fair to say that the very centre of the handle would be hottest Rob? That is,the part of the handle that was against Nevills back,because of the heat being conducted out from the oven along the splindle part of the handle.If you see what I mean.
These items were found on the day. You really should read my posts even if they 'crush' your stance. I have posted umpteen times of how this can be proved. Read the Watch the Birdy thread and the riddle of the Blue Socks. I am sure you know how to use the search facility. Unless you have concrete arguments to contest my findings I will not address the issue with YOU.
I'd believed that those items no longer considered necessary were disposed of, by police, in the fire-pit, with JB's permission. I seem to think that he added to those items, ie his parents' clothes, after police had left.
These items were found on the day. You really should read my posts even if they 'crush' your stance. I have posted umpteen times of how this can be proved. Read the Watch the Birdy thread and the riddle of the Blue Socks. I am sure you know how to use the search facility. Unless you have concrete arguments to contest my findings I will not address the issue with YOU.
I know you like tit for tat posting. I have rarely seen a longer post from you. This is a complex issue and is not suited to 'one liners'. To see the cover-up you need to dig deep.
These items were found on the day. You really should read my posts even if they 'crush' your stance. I have posted umpteen times of how this can be proved. Read the Watch the Birdy thread and the riddle of the Blue Socks. I am sure you know how to use the search facility. Unless you have concrete arguments to contest my findings I will not address the issue with YOU.
I know you like tit for tat posting. I have rarely seen a longer post from you. This is a complex issue and is not suited to 'one liners'. To see the cover-up you need to dig deep.
These items were found on the day. You really should read my posts even if they 'crush' your stance. I have posted umpteen times of how this can be proved. Read the Watch the Birdy thread and the riddle of the Blue Socks. I am sure you know how to use the search facility. Unless you have concrete arguments to contest my findings I will not address the issue with YOU.
I know you like tit for tat posting. I have rarely seen a longer post from you. This is a complex issue and is not suited to 'one liners'. To see the cover-up you need to dig deep.
The 'debris' was found in the fire pit, not the AGA.
Wow 5 lines.
It's quite high-handed of you to just rattle off lengthy posts and expect your fellow posters to accept what you say as being gospel truth, ie it's no good telling me "These items were found on the day" because I want to know what the back story is. Unfortunately, it's at this stage that I think what you say loses gravitas. The deeper the dig, the more unrealistic, the findings. For me, the big question is always "WHY" and it hasn't been answered satisfactorily.
The 'debris' was found in the fire pit, not the AGA. You really need to stop taking those modesty pills and take a drink from the reality fountain.Another poster who has not understood my proposal/alternative narrative. Clearly has not read how I
Another poster who has not understood my proposal/alternative narrative. Clearly has not read how expose the fire pit argument. (Riddle of the Blue socks).
Just because I outline complex arguments does not make me immodest. You can challenge the detail of my arguments.
We will see what happens. It was me who first suggested the Aga burns issue and it looks as if I may be proved correct on this point at least.
I did not make a big song and dance when I suggested it with typical MT posts like 'Forensic break through'. 'I can prove JB innocent without doubt'. I offered my thoughts at least six years ago. It is only in the last year that this has been taken up by an experienced forensic burns expert who has investigated my suggestion. Hardly the behaviour of someone taking up a position and seeking their moment in the spotlight and 15 minutes of fame like others I could name.
When we have an award ceremony, we'll be sure to include one that covers you being 'the first to mention the AGA and the burns' - I doubt he investigated 'your suggestion' - I very much doubt he reads the forum. You just had the same idea. But don't get carried away with that - it's simply a theory STILL. Fir me, not a very convincing one.That's exactly what they did Bird made two witness statements dated as the same day. If you read his statement that formed part of the trial you will see that he only mentions finding the blue socks (DB6) 30 days after the tragedy. If you look at the statement (covered in the transcript) which he gave to the COLP enquiry he mentions all his finds at that time. One statement DB6 Blue socks, the other items DB1 to DB7. They had to be found on the first day because the blue socks could not still be in situ. You really do need to get to grips with the detail of my argument. Thus far many have tried including Cambridgecutie and have been unable to find a satisfactory response. Others do not engage or give up.
As for the fire pit 'argument' - again, I don't agree with your suggestion. I don't see the point of lying about it - simply don't mention the items in the first place. You're suggestions are too complex to make sense.
When we have an award ceremony, we'll be sure to include one that covers you being 'the first to mention the AGA and the burns' - I doubt he investigated 'your suggestion' - I very much doubt he reads the forum. You just had the same idea. But don't get carried away with that - it's simply a theory STILL. Fir me, not a very convincing one.
As for the fire pit 'argument' - again, I don't agree with your suggestion. I don't see the point of lying about it - simply don't mention the items in the first place. You're suggestions are too complex to make sense.
That's exactly what they did Bird made two witness statements dated as the same day. If you read his statement that formed part of the trial you will see that he only mentions finding the blue socks (DB6) 30 days after the tragedy. If you look at the statement (covered in the transcript) which he gave to the COLP enquiry he mentions all his finds at that time. One statement DB6 Blue socks, the other items DB1 to DB7. They had to be found on the first day because the blue socks could not still be in situ. You really do need to get to grips with the detail of my argument. Thus far many have tried including Cambridgecutie and have been unable to find a satisfactory response. Others do not engage or give up.
They are stuck forever in an orthodox view of the case, which in turn underpins their stance. It's a catch 22 that traps them.
That's exactly what they did Bird made two witness statements dated as the same day. If you read his statement that formed part of the trial you will see that he only mentions finding the blue socks (DB6) 30 days after the tragedy. If you look at the statement (covered in the transcript) which he gave to the COLP enquiry he mentions all his finds at that time. One statement DB6 Blue socks, the other items DB1 to DB7. They had to be found on the first day because the blue socks could not still be in situ. You really do need to get to grips with the detail of my argument. Thus far many have tried including Cambridgecutie and have been unable to find a satisfactory response. Others do not engage or give up.Further to this part of the argument is that the blue socks were featured in the crime scene photos and whilst they might not have been discussed at trial the prosecution had to have evidence that they were found on the day, their exhibit number and who found them. As far as I am aware there are no references to another pair of blue socks.
Whereas, ya'll have to invent ever increasing outlandish scenario's.
What makes you think they are outlandish?They have to call them outlandish to discredit them a much different word from informative, instructive, explanatory, revealing, educational etc.
They have to call them outlandish to discredit them a much different word from informative, instructive, explanatory, revealing, educational etc.
this from someone who believes in the fairy stories told by EP and believes Aga' breakdown but are so tough they are still going after 88 years,
Or possibly crossing the line between fact and fantasy, into the realms of fiction? Beautifully written, of course.
this from someone who believes in the fairy stories told by EP and believes Aga' breakdown but are so tough they are still going after 88 years,
Tittle tattle?!! OUCH!!! It was meant as general observation. Real wealth is understated and has no need to flaunt itself. Our AGA is circa 1935 which verifies your comment.
They have to call them outlandish to discredit them a much different word from informative, instructive, explanatory, revealing, educational etc.
What makes you think they are outlandish?
Further to this part of the argument is that the blue socks were featured in the crime scene photos and whilst they might not have been discussed at trial the prosecution had to have evidence that they were found on the day, their exhibit number and who found them. As far as I am aware there are no references to another pair of blue socks.What is more the COLP did not know about events in the time between the tragedy and the end of the first week and the removal and burning of items by JB and the police or AE's tidying up. It is also quite likely they did not have the crime scene picture of the blue socks. So they were in a situation like JB of evidence being withheld. But they would not have asked for them because that was not what they were investigating.
The COLP enquiry looked more deeply at Birds finds and had other documents detailing DB1 to DB7 so for this reason he needed a statement that showed all the finds and it this statement dated the same as the first that he presented to the enquiry
You and I have a very different view on credibility. Nothing wrong with that - for you anything is possible, for me, it's not.
You would label me a conspiracy theorist and I would label you naive.
What is more the COLP did not know about events in the time between the tragedy and the end of the first week and the removal and burning of items by JB and the police or AE's tidying up. It is also quite likely they did not have the crime scene picture of the blue socks. So they were in a situation like JB of evidence being withheld. But they would not have asked for them because that was not what they were investigating.
More dung from the 'HIPPO'.
I haven't got time to be removing posts from various posters, that contain personal insults. Can those doing so just refrain please. I've got better things to do.
BuboBubo posted this yesterday -
Does not look plump or overweight in earlier pics. More dung from the Hippo.
----------
He has been calling me this for over a year.
I only decided to call him this today in response. I did PM NGB several months ago but got no response.
May I recommend you inform BuboBubo if he calls me it again he will get a temporary ban.
Otherwise please tell me what action you are taking. It is hardcore abuse.
Thank you.
Looks like no response.
A pity. One piece of assertive action, either by PM or on the forum will stop me & BuboBubo calling each other a Hippo.
Maybe I was being optimistic. Warning me would be easy. But warning BuboBubo....
Who are we supposed to be warning about what? Bubo says you spread dung about the forum, like a hippo. You say Bubo's posts are long, convoluted not easy to follow. What do you want me to do, waive magic wand to make Bubo's posts more precise and your posts less frequent and more serious? Why don't you police your self?
Did you not read reply 245?
Yeah I read it. The answer to your problems will be found by posting more seriously. Since you sometimes manage to do just that, it's obvious you are capable of doing so when the mood takes you.
By the way have never claimed Boyce took up my suggestion. He may have come to the same conclusion as me albeit later. All I say is that someone else agrees with me. Though Snow thinks it possible that my idea filtered through to someone.Not sure if Boyce came up with the idea about the Aga himself or was consulted by the campaign team Bubo.Yvonne doesn't really say who had the brain wave.
If this gets to a court hearing then then crown will simply put the forward other aspects of the original verdict that remains unchallengedWhy didn't Julie mention Nevill lying against the Aga ILB? Wont this go against her?
Such as Julie mugford
Why didn't Julie mention Nevill lying against the Aga ILB? Wont this go against her?
Why didn't Julie mention Nevill lying against the Aga ILB? Wont this go against her?
Julie wasn't there. Neither was Bamber. MM was.Is that supposed to be a joke Adam?
I don't think it boils down so much to intricate detail snow. The crown have the cards in their favour in that Julie Mugford took the oath and gave evidence implicating that Jeremy Bamber had confessed to her that he killed his familyYes I know ILB,but Bamber also took the oath and swore that Julie was lying.
Whether by a third party or his own hand
Nothing to this day has managed to scupper that
Not sure if Boyce came up with the idea about the Aga himself or was consulted by the campaign team Bubo.Yvonne doesn't really say who had the brain wave.I just wish they would get a blood stains expert to look into the Crown's case in relation to June being shot 5 times in bed. A blood version of Boyce. I do not know how this would look but sure as hell, what I see, does not look to me what I would expect. It just does not look right all those droplets on the pillow. It looks more like someone has lifted her onto the bed.
But there is one thing for sure,nothing could have been further from their minds in 2011 or whenever the appeal was,else they would have put the Aga burns forward instead of the flawed rifle evidence.
No,I would imagine Yvonne and others may check out various web sites relating to the Bamber case from time to time and may well have spotted your suggestion about the Aga,as I say it had not occured to them in 2011 anyway.
Very strange that Bamber didn't come up with the brain wave to check out the Aga parts,if he's guilty he must have seen Nevill lying against it,so could have suggested to check out the Aga any time in the last 38 years in connection with the burns to Nevill.Yet nothing.
Thing is,no one connected to the case at the time or since has ever mentioned the possibility of the Aga making the marks,never ever.NO ONE.
Either Bamber decided to keep this part of the massacre a secret from everyone,including Julie for some unknown reason,or he is simply innocent and did not witness Nevill lying against the Aga that night.
I think if Bamber is guilty we would have known about the cause of the burns many years ago,or at least you long term members would have heard anyway.Long before Bubo worked it out.
The problem for you Bubo,is that if Nevill was lying dead against the Aga and the police moved him,it will be very hard to prove who killed him,Bamber or Sheila.
The prosecution would simply argue that Bamber was the killer and the police moved Nevill for an 'innocent' reason.Now I dont know if the paperwork can be shown to prove that the police accidentally killed June or not if this is what happened,maybe, if the defence got hold of the original case files or a whistle blower appeared,which may happen if the house of cards begins to unravel.
That is why I believe it would be better to argue,like Roch,that Nevill lay against the Aga for several minutes or even hours before getting up again to be shot and killed.A jury would never believe that Bamber wasted time waiting for Nevill to get up again,it just would not happen.
But,it seems in the mean time the campaign team agree with you Bubo,that the police did indeed move Nevill,so all we can do is wait and see what the CCRC conclude.
Yes I know ILB,but Bamber also took the oath and swore that Julie was lying.
What if the Aga burns had been available at trial,do you think the jury would still have found Bamber guilty?
I just wish they would get a blood stains expert to look into the Crown's case in relation to June being shot 5 times in bed. A blood version of Boyce. I do not know how this would look but sure as hell, what I see, does not look to me what I would expect. It just does not look right all those droplets on the pillow. It looks more like someone has lifted her onto the bed.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=40856;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39404;image
Yes I know ILB,but Bamber also took the oath and swore that Julie was lying.
What if the Aga burns had been available at trial,do you think the jury would still have found Bamber guilty?
I just wish they would get a blood stains expert to look into the Crown's case in relation to June being shot 5 times in bed. A blood version of Boyce. I do not know how this would look but sure as hell, what I see, does not look to me what I would expect. It just does not look right all those droplets on the pillow. It looks more like someone has lifted her onto the bed.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=40856;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39404;image
You're not a blood expert.I do not say I am but for me it just does not look right , which is why I would like an expert to take a look
Read Herbert Macdonells report.PERHAPS YOU SHOULD READ THIS
I just wish they would get a blood stains expert to look into the Crown's case in relation to June being shot 5 times in bed. A blood version of Boyce. I do not know how this would look but sure as hell, what I see, does not look to me what I would expect. It just does not look right all those droplets on the pillow. It looks more like someone has lifted her onto the bed.Why dont you send them all your evidence Bubo,let them check it out.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=40856;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39404;image
Even if Julie mugford did indeed lie. It's all about self protection at this stage of her life.Yes,thats all very true ILB.
Her coming forward saying she lied and she is effectively going to put herself in prison for a significant period
Why dont you send them all your evidence Bubo,let them check it out.
Couldn't do any harm,the team have all the available documentation to study.
I just wish they would get a blood stains expert to look into the Crown's case in relation to June being shot 5 times in bed. A blood version of Boyce. I do not know how this would look but sure as hell, what I see, does not look to me what I would expect. It just does not look right all those droplets on the pillow. It looks more like someone has lifted her onto the bed.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=40856;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39404;image
Have to agree with the KC in the Louie theroux documentary to be honest.Another way round this is to produce so many smaller but telling arguments that despite what JM says prove that the case against him was manufactured. That is he was framed. In that way if he had say five or six 'corkers' it would shed doubt on other more contested issues like the call from NB. Arguments can be made for this but there is no proof but if he has strong evidence of malfeasance Although the call is disputed it might suggest that it too was crafted in a way that made it disappear.
" It will need to be something compelling, something of a slam dunk nature "
To me Jeremy's best bets have always been establishing a phonecall from nevill or undermining Julie Mugford.
Another way round this is to produce so many smaller but telling arguments that despite what JM says prove that the case against him was manufactured. That is he was framed. In that way if he had say five or six 'corkers' it would shed doubt on other more contested issues like the call from NB. Arguments can be made for this but there is no proof but if he has strong evidence of malfeasance Although the call is disputed it might suggest that it too was crafted in a way that made it disappear.These old chestnuts have been discredited a long time since.
Another way round this is to produce so many smaller but telling arguments that despite what JM says prove that the case against him was manufactured. That is he was framed. In that way if he had say five or six 'corkers' it would shed doubt on other more contested issues like the call from NB. Arguments can be made for this but there is no proof but if he has strong evidence of malfeasance Although the call is disputed it might suggest that it too was crafted in a way that made it disappear.
The problem and this is just my opinion. With the framing concept is that originally Jeremy Bamber was believed and taken at face value. It was Shelia what done it. This was the initial accepted view.To some extent I agree but at the outset the prevailing thinking would not be that the police are a a bunch of criminals and why would they wish to spend time and energy constructing an elaborate frame up of a 24 year old farmers son from a little village in a remote part of Essex. I believe it was only when the family got stuck in that the frame became necessary to stop their mistake becoming exposed. They had already lied to the coroner if my suggestion as to why they framed him is correct
Framing to me would have been more likely if from the initial outset. If we are talking an Essex police scenario
The problem and this is just my opinion. With the framing concept is that originally Jeremy Bamber was believed and taken at face value. It was Shelia what done it. This was the initial accepted view.
Framing to me would have been more likely if from the initial outset. If we are talking an Essex police scenario
To some extent I agree but at the outset the prevailing thinking would not be that the police are a a bunch of criminals and why would they wish to spend time and energy constructing an elaborate frame up of a 24 year old farmers son from a little village in a remote part of Essex. I believe it was only when the family got stuck in that the frame became necessary to stop their mistake becoming exposed. They had already lied to the coroner if my suggestion as to why they framed him correct
There is no evidence whatsoever that the police framed JB or shot anyone. Its all wild conjecture and fan fiction.
If someone argues along the lines of all evidence contrary to their outlandish theories is fabricated by the police and the only evidence that will prove their outlandish idea is kept hidden by the police. Then you cannot really debate with such a person on that particular topic.
There is no evidence whatsoever that the police framed JB or shot anyone. Its all wild conjecture and fan fiction.
If someone argues along the lines of all evidence contrary to their outlandish theories is fabricated by the police and the only evidence that will prove their outlandish idea is kept hidden by the police. Then you cannot really debate with such a person on that particular topic.
It's reassuring to know that authorities go out of their way to place evidence at Kew, sealed or decades, but which has no evidential value to the defence. Likewise, presumably the destroyed nightdress would have yielded nothing useful to the defence. I could go on.
I know there isn't a police conspiracy against Jeremy Bamber Dave. I am not championing the theory.
Police corruption did exist in the 1970s and 1980s. ( Still does today ) However I don't believe it did in this case And have stated my reason why above
It's reassuring to know that authorities go out of their way to place evidence at Kew, sealed or decades, but which has no evidential value to the defence. Likewise, presumably the destroyed nightdress would have yielded nothing useful to the defence. I could go on.
All DPP cases from 1846 till 2002 are in the national archives. I guess the entire prison population has been framed then!
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C87 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C87)
I don't think the family got stuck in the frame as such. They are kind of the orchestra. In so for which they basically got the second investigation going.
I actually think even if we take the scenario of finding the silencer out of the equation and julie mugford. And hypothetically Jeremy Bamber remained a free man with his inheritance. They would have ostracized Jeremy and tried to bring proceedings against him through a civil claim private prosecution.
There seems to be a strong dislike of Jeremy
If I remember correctly, Patti, who is/was a very case knowledgeable supporter, also doesn't believe in there being a police fit up. I understand ILB doesn't see himself as a supporter but the spectrum of supporters does seem to include those who believe the police convicted the wrong person out of genuine motives, presumably due to relatives and Julie Mugford evidence.
Then for what reason did they move NB's body? Are you suggesting that some think it was due to Noble cause?
There is no evidence that they did.There is it remains to be seen whether this is accepted.
If I remember correctly, Patti, who is/was a very case knowledgeable supporter, also doesn't believe in there being a police fit up. I understand ILB doesn't see himself as a supporter but the spectrum of supporters does seem to include those who believe the police convicted the wrong person out of genuine motives, presumably due to relatives and Julie Mugford evidence.
Yes they did. They claimed to have found the SM on the tenth so that it was available for the first trip to the FSS. The truth I believe is they manufactured the replacement and handed it in in September. It is likely that they new RB had the same blood grouping by this time and could have used that info to contaminate it. I believe this is a more likely method than using water contaminated by period blood.
The point is the police would not do a go it alone framing. They would only have organised it if the family was also culpable. They would want them to 'get their hand dirty too'.
There is it remains to be seen whether this is accepted.
DS Jones didn't like Jeremy from the outset.
' were not happy about this bloke, this isnt a bloke grieving, he is an oddball'
A little bit prediuiced yes
The only real evidence against JB is the SM and JM's testimony. The rest is a smorgasbord of circumstantial evidence. It also remains that there is still a large amount of undisclosed documentation including the original four murders and a suicide case file which the CT have identified from existing paperwork If the police have nothing to hide just give it up and they can rid themselves of the case entirely.
It is. But to follow that line of enquiry, the police would need to ignore all the evidence at the scene, which implicated Sheila. There is a file on Sheila as the killer that has never been released.
It is. But to follow that line of enquiry, the police would need to ignore all the evidence at the scene, which implicated Sheila. There is a file on Sheila as the killer that has never been released.
Why would it be? She wasn't on trial. How would you like it if you were suspected of murder but the police found the real perp. However, at his trial, the defence read out the file they had on you?
They had a legal responsibility to release to the defence, any evidence they had collated that Sheila was responsible. They have 'disappeared' the case file in question.
Sheila wasn't on trial, no matter how much you would like her to be.
They had a legal and moral duty to disclose evidence that is exculpatory towards Jeremy.
They had a legal and moral duty to disclose evidence that is exculpatory towards Jeremy.
Sheila wasn't on trial, no matter how much you would like her to be.
To test or not to test that is the question?
Taff Jones was only interested in testing samples to confirm his diagnosis of ‘A Domestic’. It is therefore not surprising that he sent very little by way of samples to the lab. When the case changed to 5 murders they had a problem.
They had to be sure that any testing did not produce a result which would uncover their deception. Therefore it is possible that any item for which the origin of the blood was debateable or provided evidence that disproved their narrative was not sent for testing.
The bible is a classic example. It could have been spotted with blood from June (most likely), Sheila by contamination but also Neville if June had taken it downstairs to say prayers for him or she transferred his blood to it having touched him
I would also draw attention to DRH 45 & DRH 48
In his statements DRH lists items he collected on 9th August. I will not list them all.
DRH43 .22 Bullet case missed on previous search
DRH44 Paperback Bible
DRH45 Blood stained under sheet from bed in main bedroom
DRH46 Piece of blood stained wall paper.
DRH47 Blood scraping from stained carpet outside main bedroom
DRH48 Blood stained calendar from floor in kitchen near coal scuttle.
DRH49 Blood scraping from carpet on landing outside SC’s bedroom
If you examine John Haywards Specimen Testing list you will see that the items in red are conspicuous by their absence
It also appears that despite the huge amounts of blood in the kitchen none was tested. Of course by starting a new case file they could easily exclude much information which would have undermined their case. It is possible that Taff sent these to the lab in the first instance and all the documentation including results are in the original case file. Were there other items collected by another SOCO that were only used in the original case? They made a huge mistake with DB2 Fire debris.
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Why dont you send them all your evidence Bubo,let them check it out.
Couldn't do any harm,the team have all the available documentation to study.
Thinking again I don't think BuboBubo could join the CT. His theories are too unreal. Even for them.
Bamber quickly stopped Trudies vlogs and asked Mike to close this forum as they were doing more harm than good.
He would have kittens if BuboBubo was let loose within the CT.
The only other option is to go solo. That's going well for Bill.
At least on here Zoso and Roch respond to his theories.
Thinking again I don't think BuboBubo could join the CT. His conspiracy theories are too unreal. Even for them.
Bamber quickly stopped Trudies vlogs and asked Mike to close this forum as they were doing more harm than good.
He would have kittens if BuboBubo was let loose within the CT.
And you think your ridiculous arguments strengthen the case for guilt. I am sure he would be pleased at my suggestion of the source of the Aga burns, the swappedPV20, Numerous examples of witness Statement tampering. Proving police found SM on the same day. etc.etc.
It was always optimistic Bamber trying to get this forum closed down. Mike was much too far gone.
I think at the age of 62 and with time slipping by I imagine he just wants to get out by any means necessary
I just go by the evidence and WS's.
No invented scenarios,
Bamber is a category A prisoner.
Even a person with his freedoms in place can't stop a forum. What chance did Bamber?
He wrote to Mike. But Mike was well into his theories.
Optimistic of Bamber but Mike & the guilters on here were doing him a lot of damage.
Agree with that. It has been 38 years.
I think Jeremy was indeed selfish with Mike. Who put a lot of time and effort for him.
To be honest I can see him if he doesn't get a referral this time round going down the appeal of whole life sentence route again and get a tariff set.
Which failed previously. But what else can he do ?
It's over a decade since the last ccrc rejection
Can't blame Bamber for wanting the forum shut down.
At least the podcasts and CT videos use the 'comments turned off option'.
To be honest I can see him if he doesn't get a referral this time round going down the appeal of whole life sentence route again and get a tariff set.
Which failed previously. But what else can he do ?
It's over a decade since the last ccrc rejection
Accept.
Thinking again I don't think BuboBubo could join the CT. His conspiracy theories are too unreal. Even for them.
Bamber quickly stopped Trudies vlogs and asked Mike to close this forum as they were doing more harm than good.
He would have kittens if BuboBubo was let loose within the CT.
The only other option is to go solo. That's going well for Bill.
At least on here Zoso and Roch respond to his theories.
He won't Zoso. I've met him. He's not the kind of guy. He will fight it his dying day. Rightly or wrongly
I know he won't, but it was just a suggestion of what he 'could' do.
Did Jeremy just cut off Mike completely?
Or did Mike cut off contact with Jeremy ?
I think Jeremy was indeed selfish with Mike. Who put a lot of time and effort for him.Jeremy doesn't associate with people unless they're of use to him.
Jeremy doesn't associate with people unless they're of use to him.More 'A' class mind reading.
More 'A' class mind reading...and your scenarios have more than a hint of prestidigitation contained therein.
Jeremy doesn't associate with people unless they're of use to him.
So you're saying Mike was completely useless then?If I had to guess I'd say the Forum became an irritant to him, especially after the "clever bastard" anecdote.
If I had to guess I'd say the Forum became an irritant to him, especially after the "clever bastard" anecdote.
..and your scenarios have more than a hint of prestidigitation contained therein.I only have one theory in two parts. The cover-up and the framing. MT had a range of issues which he signalled as problematic but his main thinking revolved around the accidental shooting of SC when extracting the rifle and he believed she was still alive from the so called first shot which was initially non fatal.
I only have one theory in two parts. The cover-up and the framing. MT had a range of issues which he signalled as problematic but his main thinking revolved around the accidental shooting of SC when extracting the rifle and he believed she was still alive from the so called first shot which was initially non fatal.
I have made adjustments to my theory as new evidence has come to light but the main thrust of my argument has not changed. Like Maynard Keynes if the facts change I change.
Although MT's behaviour was in some ways detrimental to JB's case, his greatest gift was to upload a mountain of documentation that could be used by others to investigate the case. RIP Mike.
I only have one theory in two parts. The cover-up and the framing. MT had a range of issues which he signalled as problematic but his main thinking revolved around the accidental shooting of SC when extracting the rifle and he believed she was still alive from the so called first shot which was initially non fatal.The murder weapon was stiff. Strange that the last bullet contained therein discharged and killed Sheila. Your June scenario is also risible.
I have made adjustments to my theory as new evidence has come to light but the main thrust of my argument has not changed. Like Maynard Keynes if the facts change I change.
Although MT's behaviour was in some ways detrimental to JB's case, his greatest gift was to upload a mountain of documentation that could be used by others to investigate the case. RIP Mike.
I have yet to be asked to join the magic circle but maybe you could join Derren Brown on his next tour
The murder weapon was stiff. Strange that the last bullet contained therein discharged and killed Sheila. Your June scenario is also risible.Why?
Why?Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion / Re: Ballistics manipulation
Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion / Re: Ballistics manipulation
« on: July 28, 2023, 09:12:PM »
Quote from: Bubo bubo on July 28, 2023, 08:56:PM
Ok I trust if I return the favour you will not respond and take it with a pinch of salt. The police did not shoot Sheila she committed suicide. They desecrated her corpse. Lets agree my position without distortion by language use. Thanks
But you said police shot her in the neck after she committed suicide. Why would they do that and can you name any of the protagonists in the case who agree that Sheila was suicidal?
Your post:
I believe the original scenario which they planned involved a restaging and included the shooting of Sheila by June in some manner. For this it required Sheila to be shot with two different weapons. They shot her in the neck after she had committed suicide calling it the first shot.
By way of explanation. If it was known that June was alive before entry and SC had obviously deceased her by some margin in time people would question who shot June especially if she had a few survivable wounds if any at all. By faking a survivable wound on a deceased SC they could argue one of two things.Well at least your beliefs are sincerely held, however wacky they may appear to some.
1 That June had shot SC in some kind of struggle and thinking her dead dropped her guard only for a Stunned SC (PV's initial autopsy wording) to recover and kill June.
2 SC abandoned her attempts to get at June who was sheltering in the box room with a shotgun. Having failed, she tried to commit suicide . That SC herself had made an error in her first suicide attempt. June had approached her to check for whether she had survived only to be shot by SC then killing herself with a second shot
Do not forget in the first few hours EP did not know whether any pathologist assigned to the case would be sympathetic to an accidental shooting. or what else might emerge or that the family would get very involved or how they could/might play this at the inquest. It was all very early hours and they had to come up with some sort of plan.
If June had no other injuries except for the shot between the eyes that would be hellish. Remember also that the original case file remains undisclosed and even if police outside knew June was alive a plausible explanation for her demise would be required to satisfy them that everything was 'Kosher'
Surely there should be an update from the CCRC now...