Guardian - 24th March 2017

[Steve_uk]

One thing I'm not and that's delusional.
 Obviously over the years I've come to know certain illnesses which past training has put me to the test. What a sheer waste of college and time spent training if I'd known nothing at all.!
Thank goodness I do have self-belief and am able to detect my own skin cancers as opposed to ordinary moles and I naturally expect most adults to know their own bodies better than anyone. I'd rather self-diagnose than leave it to some incompetent !

Mistakes have been made by specialists/consultants and GP's.
My family and myself are devastated at the moment,caused by a wrong diagnosis and inappropriate medication,knowing it had been wrong 4 months ago,then again a month later.How do you argue against those who you think know better ?? Sit back and say nothing while that person suffers ?   

Back to Sheila who I think was a depressive rather than a schizophrenic. Even bi-polar fits her description,where they have outbursts of violence,but who are still perfectly capable of carrying on as normal. Somehow Sheila's symptoms didn't have the continual severity of a schizophrenic nor did it interfere with her partying as such people are usually withdrawn.
Doctor Ferguson's diagnosis had been such that when he'd diagnosed schizophrenia,he promptly ignored the fact that Sheila had told him she could harm the twins ?? Ignore what a "schizophrenic" says ?

But she was withdrawn at the final party on the Saturday before the murders. What was running through her mind as she sat bereft, staring out of the window, gazing at Julie and with seemingly no interest in her boys?

Lookout I'd be interested in your thoughts as to the Zachary McLoughlin suicide, which I read about today. Do you think that some children just find the high pressure environment of school and social media just too much to live up to, is suicide a form of mental illness or do they know what they are doing as the last few seconds of their life approach?   http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/brave-mums-brutally-honest-words-10066872

[Caroline]

One thing I'm not and that's delusional.
 Obviously over the years I've come to know certain illnesses which past training has put me to the test. What a sheer waste of college and time spent training if I'd known nothing at all.!
Thank goodness I do have self-belief and am able to detect my own skin cancers as opposed to ordinary moles and I naturally expect most adults to know their own bodies better than anyone. I'd rather self-diagnose than leave it to some incompetent !

Mistakes have been made by specialists/consultants and GP's.
My family and myself are devastated at the moment,caused by a wrong diagnosis and inappropriate medication,knowing it had been wrong 4 months ago,then again a month later.How do you argue against those who you think know better ?? Sit back and say nothing while that person suffers ?   

Back to Sheila who I think was a depressive rather than a schizophrenic. Even bi-polar fits her description,where they have outbursts of violence,but who are still perfectly capable of carrying on as normal. Somehow Sheila's symptoms didn't have the continual severity of a schizophrenic nor did it interfere with her partying as such people are usually withdrawn.
Doctor Ferguson's diagnosis had been such that when he'd diagnosed schizophrenia,he promptly ignored the fact that Sheila had told him she could harm the twins ?? Ignore what a "schizophrenic" says ?

Sheila said she could harm the children over 2 years before the murders, before being medicated for schizophrenia and before her medication was given intravenously. You are not qualified to state what illness Sheila was suffering and even if you were, you never met her. She suffered delusions which is a classic symptom of schizophrenia NOT depression.

[Steve_uk]

Undisclosed evidence is obviously everything and anything which discredits the prosecutions claim that Jeremy (not the police) supposedly shot and killed his sister! Cops don't appear to have to be sneaky in fabricating evidence and training someone, we have members of the public who can't even recognise false evidence on the part of dodgy cops!

It's about time this undisclosed evidence was disclosed to some discreet panel of experts, including Michael Mansfield QC, to put to bed whether there is any undisclosed evidence, whether it's been kept back for reasons of public decency or whether Jeremy doesn't know what he doesn't know.

[Steve_uk]

Sheila said she could harm the children over 2 years before the murders, before being medicated for schizophrenia and before her medication was given intravenously. You are not qualified to state what illness Sheila was suffering and even if you were, you never met her. She suffered delusions which is a classic symptom of schizophrenia NOT depression.

I agree Caroline that having visions is a classic symptom of schizophrenia. I suppose bi-polar is also not out of the question as it afflict members of the public at random whether they're suffering from schizophrenia or not.

[mike tesko]

It's about time this undisclosed evidence was disclosed to some discreet panel of experts, including Michael Mansfield QC, to put to bed whether there is any undisclosed evidence, whether it's been kept back for reasons of public decency or whether Jeremy doesn't know what he doesn't know.

I respect Michael Mansfield (QC) he represented me at my failed appeal hearing in February 1994, in the Royal Courts of Justice! I got the wrong judges on that occasion, who were only interested in keeping the so called good reputation of the Criminal Justice System, and dodgy police work the public at large shouldn't be hearing about!

[lookout]

Providing schizophrenics are correctly medicated they will remain on an even keel and lead normal lives which, YES, includes "partying". Sheila's problems seemed to stem from her not taking her meds. You completely overlook that Sheila was afraid she "might hurt/harm the twins" -she never mentioned killing them- PRIOR to her first admission to St Andrews in 1983. Presumably, once stabilised, she stopped having these thoughts. Her problems recurred when she stopped taking her meds. You seemed to have lumped all these occurrences into the same time line. You choose to overlook why she was given intravenous meds, when it's been said numerous times why.

As for self diagnosis, Malcolm told his consultant that all he was suffering was a bout of food poisoning picked up in Egypt. He was a very forceful character. They didn't argue with him. I told him I hoped he was right and that it hadn't been pancreatitis. EXACTLY 60 months later, within the pancreatitis time line, he died of sepsis caused by undiagnosed chronic. So much for self diagnosis, eh?

As a general rule,if one doesn't improve within 5 days of self-diagnosing,then seek help.Though personally I'm not an advocate for that either,but that's me. I'd advise everyone else though.
However I wouldn't be the same about children.

Sheila's IV med would have been first administered when she was throwing a strop and because it would more or less have worked instantly,it was continued and they stuck with using it. I look at it as having been a" cosh" in treating the symptoms rather than cause of her outbursts. I still maintain that the NHS would have done better as well as saving them £££££'s.

[Steve_uk]

Weren't those symptoms of "under the cosh" typical of the side-effects of 1980s treatment for schizophrenia? I don't know what side-effects today's medication would have?

[lookout]

 The word " chemical cosh " has been used in the way some elderly are treated with,particularly those who have dementia/alzheimers. Which I think is an horrendous thing to do,the same as it is when given to people like Sheila. It's so cruel and so unnecessary.

[Caroline]

As a general rule,if one doesn't improve within 5 days of self-diagnosing,then seek help.Though personally I'm not an advocate for that either,but that's me. I'd advise everyone else though.
However I wouldn't be the same about children.

Sheila's IV med would have been first administered when she was throwing a strop and because it would more or less have worked instantly,it was continued and they stuck with using it. I look at it as having been a" cosh" in treating the symptoms rather than cause of her outbursts. I still maintain that the NHS would have done better as well as saving them £££££'s.

Haldo doesn't work instantly, it builds in your system and when the dosage is correct, it helps people to cope with their illness. They didn't have the dosage correct for Sheila, she was still taking too much.

[lookout]

Haldo doesn't work instantly, it builds in your system and when the dosage is correct, it helps people to cope with their illness. They didn't have the dosage correct for Sheila, she was still taking too much.

I'll say it was too much. The first shot would have knocked her sideways,instead of it having been a gradual process.

[Caroline]

I'll say it was too much. The first shot would have knocked her sideways,instead of it having been a gradual process.

Which is why she was over sedated and couldn't have murdered anyone.

[lookout]

Which is why she was over sedated and couldn't have murdered anyone.

It would have been the case had she been an older person,but she wasn't, and because the stuff was wearing off anyway and not as effective as first given, the effects would no longer have been that she was over-sedated.

I think this over-sedation excuse is wearing a bit thin,considering it's been used in every thread now.

[Caroline]

It would have been the case had she been an older person,but she wasn't, and because the stuff was wearing off anyway and not as effective as first given, the effects would no longer have been that she was over-sedated.

I think this over-sedation excuse is wearing a bit thin,considering it's been used in every thread now.

What on earth are you talking about? It wasn't wearing off at all - this is an EXCUSE and has no basis in truth.

[Jane]

As a general rule,if one doesn't improve within 5 days of self-diagnosing,then seek help.Though personally I'm not an advocate for that either,but that's me. I'd advise everyone else though.
However I wouldn't be the same about children.

Sheila's IV med would have been first administered when she was throwing a strop and because it would more or less have worked instantly,it was continued and they stuck with using it. I look at it as having been a" cosh" in treating the symptoms rather than cause of her outbursts. I still maintain that the NHS would have done better as well as saving them £££££'s.

She wasn't "throwing a strop" Lookout. She was ill and probably very frightened. I'm certain the first dose of meds would have been of the emergency type -to calm her down quickly- and given intravenously but WHY are you implying that "they stuck with using it" in a way that suggests that they couldn't be bothered. It was, FOR THE THIRD TIME TODAY, because she neglected to take oral medication and it was imperative that she was medicated. Whilst the over dosing probably did act like a "cosh" it didn't enable her to function normally which is why the dose was reduced.

[Steve_uk]

There's another article here if I may tag it onto this thread, about murder-suicides, though it paints with a broad brush. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/anatomy-of-family-murder-killing-spree-home-invasion-a7639966.html