Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?

[Steve_uk]

Sure, I can probably persuade.
This is not the only case that concerns us, but is probably the most straightforward.
You will come to understand this, you probably already do.
He was deeply involved in Bain, and like Charlie Wilkes and other notables around the internet, starts at the crime scene for illumination.

While I think about it, antipodean males are not preoccupied with tampons, but this case has a tampon cardboard tube, half the kit, bloody knockers in a bucket, all on display, and a dead woman with the business component of the sanitary product inserted. I am sorry to have to point all that out, but it is central to getting Nevill Bamber downstairs near the phone.
I am surprised you can't all see the vital significance.
Aunty June would never allow all that, but Sheila was probably half way through all that when Nevill came down to investigate, or have a cigarette. My view is it is far more likely at 3 am that it was the former, and none of this massacre was planned.

This is far from favourable for Mugford, indeed she can join a list of very very wicked women.

..and you will come to understand that life is not always as straightforward as it seems. There's a terrible dilemma between those who believe him innocent and campaign on his behalf and those of us who still consider him a danger to others, especially children, and who respect Colin's wishes on this matter, notwithstanding whether you believe us disingenuous or not and whether Jeremy performed a pirouette with his gun or not, for which you have still provided no concrete proof.

[Samson]

..and you will come to understand that life is not always as straightforward as it seems. There's a terrible dilemma between those who believe him innocent and campaign on his behalf and those of us who still consider him a danger to others, especially children, and who respect Colin's wishes on this matter, notwithstanding whether you believe us disingenuous or not and whether Jeremy performed a pirouette with his gun or not, for which you have still provided no concrete proof.

How noble to respect Colin's wishes on this matter. I don't, I think he is a half wit. No doubt he believes authority for now, but he should investigate the killings of his children scientifically, not with the half baked nonsense posing as a crime narrative on this forum.
The kercher family were similarly accorded false respect. They are also half wits, it is sad to relate.
Caffel owes Bamber a profound apology, the Kercher family owe Amanda Knox the same.

[Steve_uk]

How noble to respect Colin's wishes on this matter. I don't, I think he is a half wit. No doubt he believes authority for now, but he should investigate the killings of his children scientifically, not with the half baked nonsense posing as a crime narrative on this forum.
The kercher family were similarly accorded false respect. They are also half wits, it is sad to relate.
Caffel owes Bamber a profound apology, the Kercher family owe Amanda Knox the same.

"How little a person knows what is in himself. To see all the fissures and fractures, to throw light into the dark cavities, to see the landscape of a mind and recognize no part of it but know that it is yours is a fearful and disturbing thing."

GO AND ENJOY YOUR CELEBRITY STATUS, MAYBE YOU'LL BE ON WOGAN NEXT AND CAN ADVERTISE YOUR BOOK AND SCULPTURES THAT WAY-HOW YOU CAN CHEAPEN DANIEL AND NICHOLAS AND THEIR TRAGIC DEATH I JUST DON'T KNOW.NO ONE WANTED ANYTHING OF YOU BEFORE THEN AND NOW THEY'RE GONE YOUR USING IT FOR YOUR OWN ENDS-PRETENDING IT'S GRIEF COUNSELLING. YOU WERE ALRIGHT, COLIN, ONCE, BUT NOW I'M SORRY TO SAY YOU'RE NOTHING BUT A LEACH LIVING OFF YOUR OWN SONS' TRAGIC DEATH. IF THEY COULD SEE YOU NOW I BET IT WOULD SICKEN THEM AS IT SICKENS ME...I HOPE YOU LOVE YOURSELF, IN FACT I BET YOU DO. WHAT I WISH IS THAT YOU NEVER HAVE CHILDREN IN THE FUTURE BECAUSE YOU'LL F*** THEM UP TOO-IT WAS YOUR FAULT THAT SHEILA WENT MAD AND KILLED EVERYONE. YOU KNEW SHE WOULD BREAK UNDER THE STRAIN OF BRINGING UP A FAMILY ON HER OWN-YOU DIDN'T CARE FOR YOUR CHILDREN EVEN IN THE WOMB..

YOU'VE DONE ME MUCH HARM WITH YOUR SELFISH USE OF THE MEDIA SO I'D USE THE SAME TO GET MY OWN BACK. LOOK FORWARD TO AN ARTICLE SOON COLIN MAY IT PRICK YOUR CONSCIENCE IF YOU HAVE ONE,YOUR NOTHING BUT A LEACH JUST THINK WHAT YOUR FEEDING OFF.
                            WITH VERY MUCH SADNESS
                                       JEREMY

I've never met Colin, but I feel as though I have through reading his book. That's some achievement. One thing I will tell you is that Colin is his own harshest critic. He will have run through the incident which no mortal should have to endure (and which most of us can forget on a daily basis) for many years. It's Jeremy who is now irreparably damaged, whilst Colin has moved on and goodness knows how. Maybe the workshops made him come to the realization what a nonentity Jeremy really is, and the repressed hatred of which the letters were symptomatic are testament to it, of a life which could have held a value for others, but which ended up and will end up in an all-encompassing nihilism, where a confession is precluded by a still all-consuming expectation of material gain, which will not be forthcoming.

[Samson]

"How little a person knows what is in himself. To see all the fissures and fractures, to throw light into the dark cavities, to see the landscape of a mind and recognize no part of it but know that it is yours is a fearful and disturbing thing."

GO AND ENJOY YOUR CELEBRITY STATUS, MAYBE YOU'LL BE ON WOGAN NEXT AND CAN ADVERTISE YOUR BOOK AND SCULPTURES THAT WAY-HOW YOU CAN CHEAPEN DANIEL AND NICHOLAS AND THEIR TRAGIC DEATH I JUST DON'T KNOW.NO ONE WANTED ANYTHING OF YOU BEFORE THEN AND NOW THEY'RE GONE YOUR USING IT FOR YOUR OWN ENDS-PRETENDING IT'S GRIEF COUNSELLING. YOU WERE ALRIGHT, COLIN, ONCE, BUT NOW I'M SORRY TO SAY YOU'RE NOTHING BUT A LEACH LIVING OFF YOUR OWN SONS' TRAGIC DEATH. IF THEY COULD SEE YOU NOW I BET IT WOULD SICKEN THEM AS IT SICKENS ME...I HOPE YOU LOVE YOURSELF, IN FACT I BET YOU DO. WHAT I WISH IS THAT YOU NEVER HAVE CHILDREN IN THE FUTURE BECAUSE YOU'LL F*** THEM UP TOO-IT WAS YOUR FAULT THAT SHEILA WENT MAD AND KILLED EVERYONE. YOU KNEW SHE WOULD BREAK UNDER THE STRAIN OF BRINGING UP A FAMILY ON HER OWN-YOU DIDN'T CARE FOR YOUR CHILDREN EVEN IN THE WOMB..

YOU'VE DONE ME MUCH HARM WITH YOUR SELFISH USE OF THE MEDIA SO I'D USE THE SAME TO GET MY OWN BACK. LOOK FORWARD TO AN ARTICLE SOON COLIN MAY IT PRICK YOUR CONSCIENCE IF YOU HAVE ONE,YOUR NOTHING BUT A LEACH JUST THINK WHAT YOUR FEEDING OFF.
                            WITH VERY MUCH SADNESS
                                       JEREMY

I've never met Colin, but I feel as though I have through reading his book. That's some achievement. One thing I will tell you is that Colin is his own harshest critic. He will have run through the incident which no mortal should have to endure (and which most of us can forget on a daily basis) for many years. It's Jeremy who is now irreparably damaged, whilst Colin has moved on and goodness knows how. Maybe the workshops made him come to the realization what a nonentity Jeremy really is, and the repressed hatred of which the letters were symptomatic are testament to it, of a life which could have held a value for others, but which ended up and will end up in an all-encompassing nihilism, where a confession is precluded by a still all-consuming expectation of material gain, which will not be forthcoming.

Since science and logistics and motivations exonerate Bamber in all but name, I will remain baffled by your obtuseness.
Caffel should research the murder of his children. He clearly has not, at the expense of a hardworking young farmer who was harvesting even as Caffel was expressing fear for his children to a friend a few hours before their death.
You are a writer, would you be prepared to point me to any of your books Steve?

[David1819]

How noble to respect Colin's wishes on this matter. I don't, I think he is a half wit. No doubt he believes authority for now, but he should investigate the killings of his children scientifically, not with the half baked nonsense posing as a crime narrative on this forum.
The kercher family were similarly accorded false respect. They are also half wits, it is sad to relate.
Caffel owes Bamber a profound apology, the Kercher family owe Amanda Knox the same.

Colin embraces the hoax because the alternative is a harder pill for him to take. Accepting Jeremy's innocence would require him to feel somewhat guilty for leaving the twins in Sheila's care. 

[David1819]

He pushed past him when he ran out of ammunition.

Not possible. Because the shots were in a downward trajectory. Unless you want to believe Jeremy stood on the bed?

[Steve_uk]

Since science and logistics and motivations exonerate Bamber in all but name, I will remain baffled by your obtuseness.
Caffel should research the murder of his children. He clearly has not, at the expense of a hardworking young farmer who was harvesting even as Caffel was expressing fear for his children to a friend a few hours before their death.
You are a writer, would you be prepared to point me to any of your books Steve?

I've been too busy with more mundane tasks. I'm sure we're all waiting with bated breath for your scientific analyses but all we get are words and procrastination.

[Steve_uk]

Not possible. Because the shots were in a downward trajectory. Unless you want to believe Jeremy stood on the bed?

Well Jeremy was at the top of the stairs and shot as Nevill proceeded down.

[Samson]

I've been too busy with more mundane tasks. I'm sure we're all waiting with bated breath for your scientific analyses but all we get are words and procrastination.

How many times should I repeat my idea of a valid reconstruction that accounts for all the evidence, photographed and described?
It all started with Sheila's period. That is science, thus Nevill came downstairs to investigate, logic/logistics.

Think like this Steve
1. The bloody knickers arose after she went to bed or she would have inserted the tampon before turning in.
2. She arose to deal with this, there is no other explanation for the bloody knickers in the bucket, which was found downstairs.
3. All the components of a "tampax" were described at the crime scene. The cardboard tube in the living room as specified by the policeman

".....The cotton wool with the cotton loop end was missing from the tampax as was another piece of the cardboard which I am aware makes up a single tampax. I could not see any blood on it. I definitely did not touch it. To put it simply the part of the tampax left was as if the remainder had been used..........I couldn't understand why this part of the tampax was in the lounge...".

We know indeed the remainder had been inserted, so clearly this was the remainder she was found dead with, therefore she headed downstairs in the bloody knickers with a tampax in hand, and decided to insert it in the lounge, after all no one would see her, and simpler than walking to the cold bathroom.
4. We know that Bamber claims he was phoned, and the found state of the kitchen phone is consistent, receiver loose on the bench. Nevill may have cancelled the call by pushing down the button where normally rests the hand piece, to explain the phone going dead.

Sheila has gone crazy AND she has the gun, not Sheila has gone crazy WITH A gun. Jeremy will know which gun.

On hearing the 5 shots to June upstairs Nevill drops the phone, Sheila knows he will ascend the stairs and she has just one chance to shoot him, as he hoves into view round the winder, she is ready and delivers the pair to the head, getting the mouth. He turns and she empties the gun to his left arm as he flees, and to be honest the rest is straightforward.
All the above explains the found crime scene, including cartridge shell locations, and the contentious relationships.

Please Steve, do me the favour of explaining where I have suggested something that does not fit?

I am planning to write a book, of false prosecutions round the world, and there will be a chapter  on the White House Farm murders.

[Steve_uk]

We never had photos of the lounge but from what I can gather there was no blood in that area and a tampon had been cut in half. Remember Sheila was dog tired that week and even had she taken the rifle from the settle it's impossible for her to reload with her limited knowledge of guns, to run up and downstairs, not to mention the wrong quantity of staged bullets spilled on the blue and white chequered worktop and the bloodied fingerprints which were never examined but unlikely to be Sheila's as the rifle was blood free. We have the mystery of the phone removed from the master bedroom, which smacks of a premeditated crime and not a young woman in psychosis as must be the Defence's argument for your case to have any credibility whatsoever.

I think Nevill was heading downstairs for the kitchen telephone but failed to reach. In the short space of time available to him he hid his wristwatch under the rug, realizing that his struggle was futile, though did manage to get a hand on the weapon, during which time the light fitting was smashed, after which Jeremy had to wipe the gun down. If Sheila were the culprit her fingerprints should be all over the gun, and if Julie's story about wiping the gun was false they would have found more of Jeremy's fingerprints as he had used it on a pretext to shoot rabbits the previous evening.

I could go on as to the tissue of lies Jeremy invented that first morning at Goldhanger as he held court, the first time in his life he had been the centre of attention after the blunders in his parental upbringing, though we may never know for sure what precipitated the crimes as Jeremy may have sought some other excuse to do away with them and claim a full inheritance.

[Samson]

We never had photos of the lounge but from what I can gather there was no blood in that area and a tampon had been cut in half. Remember Sheila was dog tired that week and even had she taken the rifle from the settle it's impossible for her to reload with her limited knowledge of guns, to run up and downstairs, not to mention the wrong quantity of staged bullets spilled on the blue and white chequered worktop and the bloodied fingerprints which were never examined but unlikely to be Sheila's as the rifle was blood free. We have the mystery of the phone removed from the master bedroom, which smacks of a premeditated crime and not a young woman in psychosis as must be the Defence's argument for your case to have any credibility whatsoever.

I think Nevill was heading downstairs for the kitchen telephone but failed to reach. In the short space of time available to him he hid his wristwatch under the rug, realizing that his struggle was futile, though did manage to get a hand on the weapon, during which time the light fitting was smashed, after which Jeremy had to wipe the gun down. If Sheila were the culprit her fingerprints should be all over the gun, and if Julie's story about wiping the gun was false they would have found more of Jeremy's fingerprints as he had used it on a pretext to shoot rabbits the previous evening.

I could go on as to the tissue of lies Jeremy invented that first morning at Goldhanger as he held court, the first time in his life he had been the centre of attention after the blunders in his parental upbringing, though we may never know for sure what precipitated the crimes as Jeremy may have sought some other excuse to do away with them and claim a full inheritance.

You should try to explain the bloody knickers. One more time.
We know she was not bleeding when she went to bed or she would have inserted the tampon first.
We know she was found with a tampon inserted.
Therefore between going to bed and being shot, she was up inserting a tampon.
Between going to bed and being shot we know she was downstairs with bloody knickers and a bucket.

When did she do this in your reconstruction? Do you have an Occam moment that beats my reconstruction, the blood and tampon insertion occurring in the kitchen and lounge after June had gone to bed, and after she first went to bed.
Do we believe all this happened independently of Jeremy dropping by as it were, or should we believe there is a connection as I have outlined?
These were hygiene things R Boutflour insisted would not be tolerated by June. Surely it follows she was interrupted, and if so, this could only be Jeremy OR NEVILL.

My reconstruction says Nevill, yours says Jeremy.
Describe the sequence accordingly with Jeremy interrupting her.

[Steve_uk]

You should try to explain the bloody knickers. One more time.
We know she was not bleeding when she went to bed or she would have inserted the tampon first.
We know she was found with a tampon inserted.
Therefore between going to bed and being shot, she was up inserting a tampon.
Between going to bed and being shot we know she was downstairs with bloody knickers and a bucket.

When did she do this in your reconstruction? Do you have an Occam moment that beats my reconstruction, the blood and tampon insertion occurring in the kitchen and lounge after June had gone to bed, and after she first went to bed.
Do we believe all this happened independently of Jeremy dropping by as it were, or should we believe there is a connection as I have outlined?
These were hygiene things R Boutflour insisted would not be tolerated by June. Surely it follows she was interrupted, and if so, this could only be Jeremy OR NEVILL.

My reconstruction says Nevill, yours says Jeremy.
Describe the sequence accordingly with Jeremy interrupting her.

I don't see how it matters really. She could have had her period after the twins were put to bed (you're forgetting some jogging bottoms were also found soaking in a bucket) and the buckets left in the kitchen (farmers are practical people). June cancelled her bible class which may or may not have been because it was she who was dealing with the incident and the period occurred earlier than thought. We don't know what apparel Sheila was wearing during Pam's telephone call and even if she did come downstairs and cut a tampon in half it proves nothing.

[Samson]

I don't see how it matters really. She could have had her period after the twins were put to bed (you're forgetting some jogging bottoms were also found soaking in a bucket) and the buckets left in the kitchen to soak(farmers are practical people). June cancelled her bible class which may or may not have been because it was she who was dealing with the incident and the period occurred earlier than thought. We don't know what apparel Sheila was wearing during Pam's telephone call and even if she did come downstairs and cut a tampon in half it proves nothing.

So R Boutflour was wrong? June was fine with the bloody knickers in the kitchen and tampax paraphernalia in the lounge?
No, this has no application to practical farming, infinitely more likely a young woman interrupted by her father, therefore embarrassed, therefore angry.
This eliminates the band aid remedy of the casual June being happy with this found scene before everyone went to bed.
My reco is consistent with R Boutflour testimony frankly, and denying this is part of a pattern of band aid remedies being needed for your reco.

I don't need to know a lot about this case by the way, but I have spent countless hours discussing it in detail, it is ripe for the resolution that inevitably is coming down the pike.
I believe I know enough.

[guest2181]

Not possible. Because the shots were in a downward trajectory. Unless you want to believe Jeremy stood on the bed?

Why do you keep repeating this? Only one or two shots were at a downwards trajectory, the shots to the shoulder and possibly the arm.

It's quite clear, I wonder why you are attempting to make up something else?

Shots 1-4: All would have been instantly fatal. Likely inflicted after death or whilst Nevill was unconscious.

Shots 5-6: These two shots are not really on a downwards trajectory, just off horizontal. Must have caused great pain but were not immediately fatal. Likely to have been inflicted in the master bedroom due to shell case locations.

Shot 7: This shot does have a downwards trajectory and it is likely that this shot was inflicted as Nevill descended the main staircase.

Shot 8: It's difficult to know if this shot had a downwards trajectory or not, as we do not know the position of Nevill's arm when shot. Shell casings suggest that this shot was inflicted in the doorway or just outside the main bedroom.

[guest2181]

I don't see how it matters really. She could have had her period after the twins were put to bed (you're forgetting some jogging bottoms were also found soaking in a bucket) and the buckets left in the kitchen to soak(farmers are practical people). June cancelled her bible class which may or may not have been because it was she who was dealing with the incident and the period occurred earlier than thought. We don't know what apparel Sheila was wearing during Pam's telephone call and even if she did come downstairs and cut a tampon in half it proves nothing.

I don't really see how it matters either.

With regards to the tampax box found in the living room, it strikes me as being out of place. It's not something that you would expect to have been left lying around.

Could Jeremy have placed it there along with a toy gun?