"All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"

[Patti]

Patti, if we go with my scenario of Nevill hearing Sheila talking to herself as she went downstairs and following her, thinking, as he had previously done, to talk to her and calm her, it is possible that he attempted to take the gun from her and a struggle ensued. At this point, as I've previously said, I don't see Sheila as being manic and raving, but out of it to the point that she may not have known where she was or who she was with. I think that because she would have been moving very slowly, Nevill had no sense of real urgency which gave him time to phone Jeremy while Sheila was going upstairs. I feel strongly that NO shots had been fired in the kitchen at that time.

Hi April

I totally agree with you, because if there had have been he would have told Jeremy. 

When Sheila was with Freddie that night she because furiated that he had called for help and she took the phone away from him and If memory serves me right she ended the call.....I will have to double check that, I could be wrong, but I do know she reacted to the call...

She could have become furious with Nevill that night for doing the same thing...I suppose we will never know April...what happened after that call, but like you I believe no shot was fired at that point.  This meaning of course that NB had to go back upstairs to the main bedroom at some point and was shot 4 times...before coming back into the kitchen where he was shot again, this time 4 more shots of which were fatal....according to the pathologist. 

[Jane]

Hi April

I totally agree with you, because if there had have been he would have told Jeremy. 

When Sheila was with Freddie that night she because furiated that he had called for help and she took the phone away from him and If memory serves me right she ended the call.....I will have to double check that, I could be wrong, but I do know she reacted to the call...

She could have become furious with Nevill that night for doing the same thing...I suppose we will never know April...what happened after that call, but like you I believe no shot was fired at that point.  This meaning of course that NB had to go back upstairs to the main bedroom at some point and was shot 4 times...before coming back into the kitchen where he was shot again, this time 4 more shots of which were fatal....according to the pathologist. 

An assumption, of course Patti, but I feel VERY strongly that by going downstairs again, Nevill was doing no more that trying to deflect Sheila from firing more shots at June. Never, in his wildest dreams, would he have imagined she would have shot the children.

[killingeve]

Vanezes stated that in his view the 4 entry wounds to top and side of the head were fired in all probability when the victim had ceased to struggle. 

Yes that's correct, but was he aware of the location of the bullets when he compiled his reports?  It also states that NB had 8 gun shot wounds with 7 bullets entering his body.  What does this mean?  I assume that you can have a wound but that the bullet doesn't actually enter the body?  He also states that it appeared that NB had put up a spirited defence?

The problem I have with all these experts is that they appear to home in on their specific area and appear to overlook all the other evidence    I'm not sure what the set up was in '85/'86 but nowadays these things seem to take a multi-disciplinary approach eg all bring area of expertise to the table before drawing final overall conclusions    Its the same with the blood sample found in the silencer was Hayward aware of the buckets of blood stained clothing in the kitchen from the SOC officer and the potential for accidental or deliberate contamination?  It strikes me again and again that there's a real breakdown in communication between the different experts.

I understand JB was a competition standard shooter.  He must have realised NB was his biggest obstacle so I struggle with JB as the perpertrator as I don't think he would have let NB leave the bedroom.  He could have fired those four fatal shots in the bedroom.

In any event Patti was do you anticipate proving or disproving by the location of bullets?  Or have you just turned super geeky/slipped into Asperger's mode     

[killingeve]

Hi April

I totally agree with you, because if there had have been he would have told Jeremy. 

When Sheila was with Freddie that night she because furiated that he had called for help and she took the phone away from him and If memory serves me right she ended the call.....I will have to double check that, I could be wrong, but I do know she reacted to the call...

She could have become furious with Nevill that night for doing the same thing...I suppose we will never know April...what happened after that call, but like you I believe no shot was fired at that point.  This meaning of course that NB had to go back upstairs to the main bedroom at some point and was shot 4 times...before coming back into the kitchen where he was shot again,this time 4 more shots of which were fatal....according to the pathologist.

Hi Patti

No what the pathologist stated is that the wounds together would certainly have proved fatal but that individually it was extremely likely, so there is a possibility that NB received 4 shots in the bedroom, 1 on the stairs and 3 in the kitchen which is supported by the location of the bullets.  I don't see that its significant either way other than when NB reached the kitchen he would literally have been almost dead 

[Patti]

Yes that's correct, but was he aware of the location of the bullets when he compiled his reports?  It also states that NB had 8 gun shot wounds with 7 bullets entering his body.  What does this mean?  I assume that you can have a wound but that the bullet doesn't actually enter the body?  He also states that it appeared that NB had put up a spirited defence?

The problem I have with all these experts is that they appear to home in on their specific area and appear to overlook all the other evidence    I'm not sure what the set up was in '85/'86 but nowadays these things seem to take a multi-disciplinary approach eg all bring area of expertise to the table before drawing final overall conclusions    Its the same with the blood sample found in the silencer was Hayward aware of the buckets of blood stained clothing in the kitchen from the SOC officer and the potential for accidental or deliberate contamination?  It strikes me again and again that there's a real breakdown in communication between the different experts.

I understand JB was a competition standard shooter.  He must have realised NB was his biggest obstacle so I struggle with JB as the perpertrator as I don't think he would have let NB leave the bedroom.  He could have fired those four fatal shots in the bedroom.

In any event Patti was do you anticipate proving or disproving by the location of bullets?  Or have you just turned super geeky/slipped into Asperger's mode     

I would imagine so NN he was a pathologist and he was able to determine more that the average Joe at court. However, this does not mean that all his findings are justified in the highest degree. Like I said in his opinion the 4 shots were fatal as reflected in his 3rd statement.

Nevill had 8 shots one of which exited, in my opinion this bullet if found would have been found in the main bedroom.  Hartley would have you believe that it fragmented into Nevill's chest.  I don't go with that, because if it had there would have been another entry wound. 

He also confirms that the black eyed were due to the bullet wounds.  The laceration on NB's nose could be argued against, because it is not clear if these were done by the coal Scuttle, due to a fall, butt of the rifle or had been subjected to a punch in the face...sorry to be blunt, but there is no other way to describe it.

I would say that Vanezes would have been an expert in his field and that his reports have been to the best of his ability, but at the end of the day not all experts in their fields are correct and if they are based on assumptions and opinions, then this is where caution applies. 

[Jane]

 

I understand JB was a competition standard shooter.  He must have realised NB was his biggest obstacle so I struggle with JB as the perpertrator as I don't think he would have let NB leave the bedroom.  He could have fired those four fatal shots in the bedroom.

That's an interesting point, NaNu. Wasn't it RB or AE who said that prior to purchasing the all singing, all dancing weapon, Jeremy had shown no previous interest in shooting, which would be odd, to say the least for a champion standard shooter and it also means, SURELY, that he would have chosen to use a weapon which assured one clean accurate shot.

[killingeve]

I would imagine so NN he was a pathologist and he was able to determine more that the average Joe at court. However, this does not mean that all his findings are justified in the highest degree. Like I said in his opinion the 4 shots were fata as reflected in his 3rd statement.

Nevill had 8 shots one of which exited, in my opinion this bullet if found would have been found in the main bedroom.  Hartley would have you believe that it fragmented into Nevill's chest.  I don't go with that, because if it had there would have been another entry wound. 

He also confirms that the black eyed were due to the bullet wounds.  The laceration on NB's nose could be argued against, because it is not clear if these were done by the coal Scuttle, due to a fall, but of the rifle or had been subjected to a punch in the face...sorry to be blunt, but there is no other way to describe it.

I would say that Vanezes would have been an expert in his field and that his reports have been to the best of his ability, but at the end of the day not all experts in their fields are correct and if they are based on assumptions and opinions, then this is where caution applies. 

Hi Patti

But we don't know for certain.  Why doesn't he make reference to the location of the bullets in his reports?  I'm not questioning the ability of the individual experts but I do question whether or not there was adequate communication between the different experts including the police, soc officers etc.

[Patti]

Hi Patti

No what the pathologist stated is that the wounds together would certainly have proved fatal but that individually it was extremely likely, so there is a possibility that NB received 4 shots in the bedroom, 1 on the stairs and 3 in the kitchen which is supported by the location of the bullets.  I don't see that its significant either way other than when NB reached the kitchen he would literally have been almost dead 

What he says is this: Looking at the entries of these wounds NB would not have been able to have fought or even put up a struggle in the kitchen if he had 5 shots elsewhere and the 3 remaining shots in the kitchen.

The placing of the case shells is important in my opinion because only 3 were found in the kitchen. If you are correct and it is likely that you might be, then there could not have possibly been a struggle or fight in the kitchen...that assumption dies...Yet, we do see a small amount of evidence that some altercation took place at the sink...but who is to know that this was after he had been upstairs, it could have been before....?

[Jane]

Hi Patti

But we don't know for certain.  Why doesn't he make reference to the location of the bullets in his reports?  I'm not questioning the ability of the individual experts by I do question whether or not there was adequate communication between the different experts including the police, soc officers etc.

NaNu, forgive the cynicism, but had there been adequate communication between the experts, this conversation, this FORUM! may not be happening.

[Patti]

Hi Patti

But we don't know for certain.  Why doesn't he make reference to the location of the bullets in his reports?  I'm not questioning the ability of the individual experts but I do question whether or not there was adequate communication between the different experts including the police, soc officers etc.

It wasn't his job to find the location of the case shells it was the SOCO's responsibility. Don't forget that Vanezes was told it was a suicide and had he known otherwise he would have gone to the scene of crime, but he didn't.  You are right communication was atrocious.  Vanezes's findings are reported, so it was up to the defence to tackle that.   

We know those 4 shots would have been fatal, if not immediate, so we could say that one of them were taken upstairs....He would have struggled so much to have gotten downstairs if this was the case, but it does tally with the position of the case shells. imo.

[killingeve]

That's an interesting point, NaNu. Wasn't it RB or AE who said that prior to purchasing the all singing, all dancing weapon, Jeremy had shown no previous interest in shooting, which would be odd, to say the least for a champion standard shooter and it also means, SURELY, that he would have chosen to use a weapon which assured one clean accurate shot.

Hi April

Yes you would think so!  JB's former headmaster at Greshams is on record as confirming JB to be a  competition standard shooter.  Apparently it was something he excelled at.  I think it was through the cadets.  I take this to mean via target practice as opposed to country pursuits.  AP, himself competition standard, is on record as saying JB was on par.  I believe they practised shooting targets together around the barns at WHF.

I'm not sure if JB purchased the all singing dancing gun in the end.  I think PE advised against.  But I believe other more powerful guns were available at WHF but they may have been noisier.  Either way I don't think JB would have allowed NB to leave the bedroom such was his accuracy with a gun.

[Daniel_day]

Oh dear me! For the hundreth time even Ron Cook admitted that he did not believe there had been any "violent fight" in the kitchen as Neville would simply have been too badly wounded to have put up any kind of a fight. With regards to fingerprints or rather lack of them on the rifle,nobody is saying that there were not more on there originally,its just that EP couldn't lift anymore than they did as so many coppers handled the rifle that morning that I would imagine that most of the original prints were smudged,wiped etc. If JB had wiped the rifle,then how come there were still blood smears all over it? It hadn't been wiped by anyone,it had just been overhandled that morning by EP...without gloves!

I find that statement rather rich Tyler. It seems everything Cook did was a total cock-up and inept, yet when he states something that could back up a supportive theory, you suddenly agree with him..... How Cook can come to that conclusion is totally beyond me. He may have been playing the game and going along with his boss DCI Jones. It is quite clear that a fight DID take place in the kitchen any denial of that is, in my opinion, ignoring the evidence to try to substantiate Bambers claims of innocence.

[Patti]

An assumption, of course Patti, but I feel VERY strongly that by going downstairs again, Nevill was doing no more that trying to deflect Sheila from firing more shots at June. Never, in his wildest dreams, would he have imagined she would have shot the children.

Sorry April, sometimes I get too focused and miss posts...

Whatever happened that night was horrendous. April, I will be honest and say no matter which way I look at it all, it doesn't make sense.  If it was Shelia or Jeremy or minus the phone call. Its one of those cases that doesn't ring true; it just opens many questions.

Why was June laid down when she was shot, was she asleep?

Why was Nevill not in bed? 

[tyler]

Hi Patti. IIRC the police believe the fourth bullet case from the kitchen was the one found on the stairs and that it somehow got taken up the stairs into its position underneath an officers shoe. It is possible,because the shot we believe Neville took in the shoulder whilst going downstairs (blood evidence on wallpaper in stairwell baxks up this theory) then,with the spent cartridge ejected to the right,it probably would have ended up somewhere on the landing? Wasn't there a case found in doorway to main bedroom or thereabouts?

[Patti]

Hi Patti. IIRC the police believe the fourth bullet case from the kitchen was the one found on the stairs and that it somehow got taken up the stairs into its position underneath an officers shoe. It is possible,because the shot we believe Neville took in the shoulder whilst going downstairs (blood evidence on wallpaper in stairwell baxks up this theory) then,with the spent cartridge ejected to the right,it probably would have ended up somewhere on the landing? Wasn't there a case found in doorway to main bedroom or thereabouts?

I think from memory that DRH/14 was found on the stairs, but I can't find the reference to it....I need help in this department because its complicated.  I started to do the case shells, the PV's weights and cross reference it all with distance and size of bullets and fragments....It needs more than me to do it....are you willing? lol 

I wish I had a printer....