Author Topic: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"  (Read 130524 times)

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Lugg

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #435 on: May 21, 2013, 08:17:PM »

Cunning does not equate to clever.
Yes I know. But I chose the word cunning. Which of course if he had committed the murders he was not. In fact if he did then he had not thought things through very well.

Offline maggie

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #436 on: May 21, 2013, 08:22:PM »
Yes I know. But I chose the word cunning. Which of course if he had committed the murders he was not. In fact if he did then he had not thought things through very well.
I would suggest he hadn't thought things through at all.  According to Julie, Lugg he just decided 'tonight's the night' like he got up in the morning and thought 'I think I'll pop over sometime tonight and shoot my family.

mertol22

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #437 on: May 21, 2013, 10:59:PM »
If the silencer was found of the day of the shootings then things would have been very different, even today im suprised the police did not question its entry into the case at a later date, to go all in and frame jeremy from day one would have sounded a litle dicey, there seems to be a time window around the time jeremy went abroad for things to change .

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #438 on: May 21, 2013, 11:58:PM »
Can we stop squabbling about the pecking order on this site and try and stick to what we can bring to the case in order to elucidate others,both older and newer members?It's about time we had a new perspective on this case and Daniel is a breath of fresh air who is being castigated by the usual culprits who have had to up their game because of remarks similar to Daniel's. How many weeks did it take for the Jeremy supporters to offer at least a viable scenario of what went on at the Farm during the early hours when my demands for it months ago met a deafening silence from all quarters?

Daniel is quite correct in his analysis of the crimes,which could not have been thought out by a young exhausted mentally ill woman in psychosis. They were planned over a matter of months as Jeremy farmed the land,that solitary figure working the landscape in a job alien to him which he could only eschew through the death of his parents. He dropped hints to Julie,whose role has been gone into many times and sometimes even at the highest level on this site misleading counsel has been given. Can't you see that Jeremy had speculated about these murders from the run-up to Christmas 1984 when he mentioned the burning down of the Farm to Charles Marsden,can't you see that he was trying to keep Ann Eaton on side by sending her a birthday card for the first time in her life,and his comments that the ownership of the caravan park would fall into both their hands? We have the evidence from Doris Foakes that he was "not sharing any of my money with Sheila",a remark which had it been the other way round the Jeremy supporters would have had a field day with,as would similarly have been the case with James Richards' evidence that Jeremy told him on numerous occasions with vehemence that "I f***ing hate my parents".

All this is quite independent of Julie's evidence which itself is damning. Patti asks for corroboration of a struggle that morning. Of course there was because the ceiling light got smashed,though Jeremy didn't seem overly concerned as he related his story to Julie,because in his mind the difficult work had been done and the head of the investigation DCI Taff Jones was onside. Faced with these logistics Julie was almost an irrelevance as he bounced his ideas pre-murders off her,not understanding women at all as so many boys who grew up in a male-dominated environment do not. Lookout and Caroline discuss the fingerprints on the murder weapon. It's quite evident that had Jeremy taken the gun out on the Tuesday evening his fingerprints should be all over the gun,not just one,and suggests to me that the gun had indeed been wiped as Jeremy told Julie. More damning is the removal of the sights to facilitate the killings,a time-consuming process involving a screwdriver which is another deadly hint that Jeremy was behind it all.

I also note that the purported telephone call has been discussed again. Firstly no Police Officer recalls speaking to Nevill personally that morning which is the biggest giveaway that he didn't make a call to them. Secondly to follow the scenario mentioned in one of the most recent posts Nevill realizes Sheila has got a gun and decides to summon his son's help in disarming her. We have to take it as given that he knows the number of Bourtree Cottage by heart,that Jeremy will hear the telephone,make his way down the rickety staircase in the early hours and pick up. We also have to accept that Jeremy doesn't accede to his father's request by driving over to the Farm immediately which wouldn't suit his evil scheme,but instead Jeremy is the one who calls the Police. Of course it's all possible in theory,but Nevill never came across to my mind as someone who was beholden to another person,which was part of the man's genius and the reason for his Midas touch in business. Jeremy didn't get along with Sheila as we know from his statements to Police upon arrival at the Farm. Far more likely is Jeremy trying to be clever with the latest gadgetry to hit the market at that time,an answerphone,and to cycle back to his cottage,retrieve the tape and then make an attempt to ring the Farm,whose telephones are disconnected at his behest.

Lugg

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #439 on: May 22, 2013, 12:38:AM »
Can we stop squabbling about the pecking order on this site and try and stick to what we can bring to the case in order to elucidate others,both older and newer members?It's about time we had a new perspective on this case and Daniel is a breath of fresh air who is being castigated by the usual culprits who have had to up their game because of remarks similar to Daniel's. How many weeks did it take for the Jeremy supporters to offer at least a viable scenario of what went on at the Farm during the early hours when my demands for it months ago met a deafening silence from all quarters?

Daniel is quite correct in his analysis of the crimes,which could not have been thought out by a young exhausted mentally ill woman in psychosis. They were planned over a matter of months as Jeremy farmed the land,that solitary figure working the landscape in a job alien to him which he could only eschew through the death of his parents. He dropped hints to Julie,whose role has been gone into many times and sometimes even at the highest level on this site misleading counsel has been given. Can't you see that Jeremy had speculated about these murders from the run-up to Christmas 1984 when he mentioned the burning down of the Farm to Charles Marsden,can't you see that he was trying to keep Ann Eaton on side by sending her a birthday card for the first time in her life,and his comments that the ownership of the caravan park would fall into both their hands? We have the evidence from Doris Foakes that he was "not sharing any of my money with Sheila",a remark which had it been the other way round the Jeremy supporters would have had a field day with,as would similarly have been the case with James Richards' evidence that Jeremy told him on numerous occasions with vehemence that "I f***ing hate my parents".

All this is quite independent of Julie's evidence which itself is damning. Patti asks for corroboration of a struggle that morning. Of course there was because the ceiling light got smashed,though Jeremy didn't seem overly concerned as he related his story to Julie,because in his mind the difficult work had been done and the head of the investigation DCI Taff Jones was onside. Faced with these logistics Julie was almost an irrelevance as he bounced his ideas pre-murders off her,not understanding women at all as so many boys who grew up in a male-dominated environment do not. Lookout and Caroline discuss the fingerprints on the murder weapon. It's quite evident that had Jeremy taken the gun out on the Tuesday evening his fingerprints should be all over the gun,not just one,and suggests to me that the gun had indeed been wiped as Jeremy told Julie. More damning is the removal of the sights to facilitate the killings,a time-consuming process involving a screwdriver which is another deadly hint that Jeremy was behind it all.

I also note that the purported telephone call has been discussed again. Firstly no Police Officer recalls speaking to Nevill personally that morning which is the biggest giveaway that he didn't make a call to them. Secondly to follow the scenario mentioned in one of the most recent posts Nevill realizes Sheila has got a gun and decides to summon his son's help in disarming her. We have to take it as given that he knows the number of Bourtree Cottage by heart,that Jeremy will hear the telephone,make his way down the rickety staircase in the early hours and pick up. We also have to accept that Jeremy doesn't accede to his father's request by driving over to the Farm immediately which wouldn't suit his evil scheme,but instead Jeremy is the one who calls the Police. Of course it's all possible in theory,but Nevill never came across to my mind as someone who was beholden to another person,which was part of the man's genius and the reason for his Midas touch in business. Jeremy didn't get along with Sheila as we know from his statements to Police upon arrival at the Farm. Far more likely is Jeremy trying to be clever with the latest gadgetry to hit the market at that time,an answerphone,and to cycle back to his cottage,retrieve the tape and then make an attempt to ring the Farm,whose telephones are disconnected at his behest.
No he isn't. What he says is the same old tripe that has been dished out daily by the usual boring culprits of the guilty party. You only think he's a breath of fresh air because you agree with him. I was wondering at one point if it was you as he says just about the same rubbish as you. I'm just about sick of your over dramatised tripe in a vain attempt to canonise Julie Mugford.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:42:AM by Lugg »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #440 on: May 22, 2013, 12:54:AM »
No he isn't. What he says is the same old tripe that has been dished out daily by the usual boring culprits of the guilty party. You only think he's a breath of fresh air because you agree with him. I was wondering at one point if it was you as he says just about the same rubbish as you. I'm just about sick of your over dramatised tripe in a vain attempt to canonise Julie Mugford.
I anticipate such comments now which is why if you read my post there are witnesses independent of Julie who indirectly support what she claimed and were willing to put themselves out by going through all the legal exertions a court process involves.

Caroline R

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #441 on: May 22, 2013, 01:49:AM »
No he isn't. What he says is the same old tripe that has been dished out daily by the usual boring culprits of the guilty party. You only think he's a breath of fresh air because you agree with him. I was wondering at one point if it was you as he says just about the same rubbish as you. I'm just about sick of your over dramatised tripe in a vain attempt to canonise Julie Mugford.

I'll second that but I don't read the Mugford essay's any more.

Offline tyler

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #442 on: May 22, 2013, 03:36:AM »
Oh dear me! For the hundreth time even Ron Cook admitted that he did not believe there had been any "violent fight" in the kitchen as Neville would simply have been too badly wounded to have put up any kind of a fight. With regards to fingerprints or rather lack of them on the rifle,nobody is saying that there were not more on there originally,its just that EP couldn't lift anymore than they did as so many coppers handled the rifle that morning that I would imagine that most of the original prints were smudged,wiped etc. If JB had wiped the rifle,then how come there were still blood smears all over it? It hadn't been wiped by anyone,it had just been overhandled that morning by EP...without gloves!

Offline Patti

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #443 on: May 22, 2013, 09:10:AM »
Can we stop squabbling about the pecking order on this site and try and stick to what we can bring to the case in order to elucidate others,both older and newer members?It's about time we had a new perspective on this case and Daniel is a breath of fresh air who is being castigated by the usual culprits who have had to up their game because of remarks similar to Daniel's. How many weeks did it take for the Jeremy supporters to offer at least a viable scenario of what went on at the Farm during the early hours when my demands for it months ago met a deafening silence from all quarters?

Daniel is quite correct in his analysis of the crimes,which could not have been thought out by a young exhausted mentally ill woman in psychosis. They were planned over a matter of months as Jeremy farmed the land,that solitary figure working the landscape in a job alien to him which he could only eschew through the death of his parents. He dropped hints to Julie,whose role has been gone into many times and sometimes even at the highest level on this site misleading counsel has been given. Can't you see that Jeremy had speculated about these murders from the run-up to Christmas 1984 when he mentioned the burning down of the Farm to Charles Marsden,can't you see that he was trying to keep Ann Eaton on side by sending her a birthday card for the first time in her life,and his comments that the ownership of the caravan park would fall into both their hands? We have the evidence from Doris Foakes that he was "not sharing any of my money with Sheila",a remark which had it been the other way round the Jeremy supporters would have had a field day with,as would similarly have been the case with James Richards' evidence that Jeremy told him on numerous occasions with vehemence that "I f***ing hate my parents".

All this is quite independent of Julie's evidence which itself is damning. Patti asks for corroboration of a struggle that morning. Of course there was because the ceiling light got smashed,though Jeremy didn't seem overly concerned as he related his story to Julie,because in his mind the difficult work had been done and the head of the investigation DCI Taff Jones was onside. Faced with these logistics Julie was almost an irrelevance as he bounced his ideas pre-murders off her,not understanding women at all as so many boys who grew up in a male-dominated environment do not. Lookout and Caroline discuss the fingerprints on the murder weapon. It's quite evident that had Jeremy taken the gun out on the Tuesday evening his fingerprints should be all over the gun,not just one,and suggests to me that the gun had indeed been wiped as Jeremy told Julie. More damning is the removal of the sights to facilitate the killings,a time-consuming process involving a screwdriver which is another deadly hint that Jeremy was behind it all.

I also note that the purported telephone call has been discussed again. Firstly no Police Officer recalls speaking to Nevill personally that morning which is the biggest giveaway that he didn't make a call to them. Secondly to follow the scenario mentioned in one of the most recent posts Nevill realizes Sheila has got a gun and decides to summon his son's help in disarming her. We have to take it as given that he knows the number of Bourtree Cottage by heart,that Jeremy will hear the telephone,make his way down the rickety staircase in the early hours and pick up. We also have to accept that Jeremy doesn't accede to his father's request by driving over to the Farm immediately which wouldn't suit his evil scheme,but instead Jeremy is the one who calls the Police. Of course it's all possible in theory,but Nevill never came across to my mind as someone who was beholden to another person,which was part of the man's genius and the reason for his Midas touch in business. Jeremy didn't get along with Sheila as we know from his statements to Police upon arrival at the Farm. Far more likely is Jeremy trying to be clever with the latest gadgetry to hit the market at that time,an answerphone,and to cycle back to his cottage,retrieve the tape and then make an attempt to ring the Farm,whose telephones are disconnected at his behest.

There is a difference between a fight and struggle Steve.  I do believe there was some sort of struggle at the sink. This is where the light shade got damaged because it was above the sink and NB's watch fell off.  However, there is no evidence that an all out fight had occurred there, a struggle yes.  :-\ :-\ :-\

Offline Patti

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #444 on: May 22, 2013, 09:10:AM »
Oh dear me! For the hundreth time even Ron Cook admitted that he did not believe there had been any "violent fight" in the kitchen as Neville would simply have been too badly wounded to have put up any kind of a fight. With regards to fingerprints or rather lack of them on the rifle,nobody is saying that there were not more on there originally,its just that EP couldn't lift anymore than they did as so many coppers handled the rifle that morning that I would imagine that most of the original prints were smudged,wiped etc. If JB had wiped the rifle,then how come there were still blood smears all over it? It hadn't been wiped by anyone,it had just been overhandled that morning by EP...without gloves!

Well said Tyler.... :) :) :) :)

Lugg

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #445 on: May 22, 2013, 09:48:AM »
Oh dear me! For the hundreth time even Ron Cook admitted that he did not believe there had been any "violent fight" in the kitchen as Neville would simply have been too badly wounded to have put up any kind of a fight. With regards to fingerprints or rather lack of them on the rifle,nobody is saying that there were not more on there originally,its just that EP couldn't lift anymore than they did as so many coppers handled the rifle that morning that I would imagine that most of the original prints were smudged,wiped etc. If JB had wiped the rifle,then how come there were still blood smears all over it? It hadn't been wiped by anyone,it had just been overhandled that morning by EP...without gloves!
I feel that your reasoned approach will fall on deaf ears as far as Steve and Daniel are concerned Tyler?

Offline killingeve

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #446 on: May 22, 2013, 10:32:AM »
Hi NN :)

If you read the Mcdonnell report the blood pattern that is on the pillow, is where she lifted herself up off the pillow after being shot, The bullet went through her neck and into the pillow as she was laying.

I'm inclined to think that noise level would have been minimum in a old house like that.  Maybe Shelia went down for something to eat....One thing is for sure, I don't think a row broke out between her and her mother, because June was lying down in a sleeping position, had she woken then she might not have been in that position......

I can't see any evidence to suggest that NB was shot in his bed, but we do know he had a downward shot to his shoulder, thus being that the killer was in a higher position at the time he received that shoulder shot, this is why I believe this was done on the stairs....One case shell was found there which could back that theory up? So if that;s the case then the other three shots were fired in the master bedroom...

The only thing that bugs me, is that there were only 3 case shells found in the kitchen and he had 4 fatal shots to the head in the kitchen.  There are no missing case shells they all add up, so how did one of the case shells end up upstairs in the main bedroom.  Its been suggested that one of the raid team carried the shell under his boot....if that is the case then it surprises me that the case shell left the boot in the main bedroom and not anywhere else in the house..... ;D ;D ;D ;D I'm rambling lol

Hi Patti

I've been thinking about the above and I think it might be explained by the CoA doc as follows:

41.   Nevill Bamber, who was wearing his pyjamas had been shot eight times. There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation. There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk. There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.

As you will see from the secion that I've highlighted above ie "If not immediately fatal, THE COMBINED EFFECT OF THESE FOUR INJURIES would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation."  My interpretation of this is that it is only the COMBINED effect meaning that NB might have received four gun shot wounds in the bedroom, one on the stairs accounting for the downward injury and three further shots in the kitchen.  Is that a possibility?   :-\

Offline Patti

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #447 on: May 22, 2013, 11:22:AM »
Hi Patti

I've been thinking about the above and I think it might be explained by the CoA doc as follows:

41.   Nevill Bamber, who was wearing his pyjamas had been shot eight times. There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation. There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk. There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.

As you will see from the secion that I've highlighted above ie "If not immediately fatal, THE COMBINED EFFECT OF THESE FOUR INJURIES would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation."  My interpretation of this is that it is only the COMBINED effect meaning that NB might have received four gun shot wounds in the bedroom, one on the stairs accounting for the downward injury and three further shots in the kitchen.  Is that a possibility?   :-\

Hi NN :)

I am assuming that that might be an assumption or a maybe. So then, if we were to go that assumption then the likelihood of a fight/struggle in the kitchen is far less likely.  I haven't read Vanezes report for a while, but I am sure he states that all 4 shots were fatal.  If you look at the fig. drawings in the archives the shots do look consecutive.  But, on saying that a diagram proves nothing.   The lack of blood on the kitchen floor suggests there was no fighting, except near the kitchen sink, where there is a stain on the mat and a few droplets on the floor.

I remember a while back that I had argued with Hartley about the shots because I came to the conclusion that NB had 7 shots and not 8.

I will take a look at what Vanezes says.... :) :) :)

Offline Patti

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #448 on: May 22, 2013, 11:34:AM »
Vanezes stated in his first statemnet that in his view the 4 entry wounds to top and side of the head were fired in all probability when the victim had ceased to struggle.  :-\

This is what he says in his 3rd.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 11:42:AM by Patti »

Offline Jane

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #449 on: May 22, 2013, 11:41:AM »
Hi NN :)

I am assuming that that might be an assumption or a maybe. So then, if we were to go that assumption then the likelihood of a fight/struggle in the kitchen is far less likely.  I haven't read Vanezes report for a while, but I am sure he states that all 4 shots were fatal.  If you look at the fig. drawings in the archives the shots do look consecutive.  But, on saying that a diagram proves nothing.   The lack of blood on the kitchen floor suggests there was no fighting, except near the kitchen sink, where there is a stain on the mat and a few droplets on the floor.

I remember a while back that I had argued with Hartley about the shots because I came to the conclusion that NB had 7 shots and not 8.

I will take a look at what Vanezes says.... :) :) :)



Patti, if we go with my scenario of Nevill hearing Sheila talking to herself as she went downstairs and following her, thinking, as he had previously done, to talk to her and calm her, it is possible that he attempted to take the gun from her and a struggle ensued. At this point, as I've previously said, I don't see Sheila as being manic and raving, but out of it to the point that she may not have known where she was or who she was with. I think that because she would have been moving very slowly, Nevill had no sense of real urgency which gave him time to phone Jeremy while Sheila was going upstairs. I feel strongly that NO shots had been fired in the kitchen at that time.