I haven't read most of this. But you do know there is a mountain of other incriminating forensic evidence against Bamber.
But appreciate the most famous piece is the moderator. Because the relatives found it. Bamber can very opptimistically accuse them of fabricating this. Although he has never said how.
Bamber & the CT can also focus on Julie.
However accusing the police & experts of fabricating over 60 pieces of other forensic evidence in an unprecedented industrial frame will just alienate the legal system against him & make him look crazy. He's already pushing it with the crazy theory that Nevill called the police.
Sheila being shot in bed and subsequently moved is a non-starter.
Vanezis said it did look like suicide, and if murder he thought she would have had to have been under the influence of drugs, which we know from the autopsy she was not.
It is impossible practically to discern whether Sheila shot herself or whether her hand was guided onto the rifle before the trigger was pressed.
Steve too many of these type of cases highlight the incompetence of those in care of mental health patients. A case going back to 2013 where a psychiatrist had stated that a " sick " female doctor hadn't been a threat to her doctor husband and family, and on release from hospital stabbed her husband to death. The conclusion being diminished responsibility.I know there are such terrible cases lookout. I just never judged Sheila to be in that category.
There'd been gaps in the woman's risk assessment as staff seemed to feature on her as a patient who was a possible for self-harm and not harm towards others.
Nothing in the woman's case was ever considered such as any background abuse mental or physical. This aspect of Sheila was never explored and it's most important to get to the bottom of why a patient ends up so sick.
Physical problems are explored before a diagnosis is reached so why not for the mind too ?
'4.10. We note that Sheila has no marks on her nightdress other than the post-injury and post-mortem blood splatter, suggesting that she was not in a struggle. (Thus, in a great twist of irony, an evidence point that has been used against Jeremy now potentially works in his favour).'
Sheila may have been 'naked' or 'semi naked' during her 'psychotic episode'.
I would need to know why that is. What (in summary) are the reasons, please?Well there were two beds in her room but neither of them had any forensic link as regards blood stains, hairs or signs of a struggle. ( I always thought it sad that the second bed was laden with her cosmetics instead of being a possible refuge for one of the twins if he felt the need to be close to his mother, but there you are.)
I don't remember that - I will have to read the autopsy again. But why did he conclude that she would have to have been under the influence of drugs? What was his reasoning? And why should we automatically accept that anyway, when it is just a opinion grounded in hypothesis? I assume by 'drugs', you also refer to medications. This woman was mentally-ill, as we all accept.
I strongly disagree, on purely common-sense grounds that I have explained in my opening post above.
Well there were two beds in her room but neither of them had any forensic link as regards blood stains, hairs or signs of a struggle. ( I always thought it sad that the second bed was laden with her cosmetics instead of being a possible refuge for one of the twins if he felt the need to be close to his mother, but there you are.)
I don't know if Vanezis was an expert on mental health (and I don't claim to be). I suppose he meant that any sane or rational person would not willingly go to their death like a lamb to the slaughter.
As far as the last point is concerned and trying it in with the second, my belief is that she was utterly exhausted after the two parties on the Friday and Saturday night, then the journey down on Sunday and the endless social round of visits as was June's wont and whom Sheila accompanied those last few days. She wouldn't know what was happening to her those last seconds until it was too late, poor girl..
Steve you forgot to mention that Nevill's slippers were in Sheila's bedroom.Well I did think of it, but you're right to draw it to members' attention.
That's helpful, thanks. You know a lot more than I do about the background. I must concede, the lack of forensic evidence in Sheila's bedroom presents a setback for the scenario I have outlined, but it's not fatal to it. What I am trying to understand, then, is how and why Sheila would have made it into the master bedroom, given that Jeremy needed to shoot her while she was lying down somewhat? Do you have any thoughts on that? Is it that she is believed to have been sleeping in the master bedroom for some reason? Or is it assumed she ran there? If the latter, how did Jeremy manage to shoot her in that way? And just as importantly, how does June fit into that scenario?I think he more or less manhandled her into it, possibly at the point of a gun. Did he speak on the way to the master bedroom, was she conscious it was her brother who was the intruder, did she climb over June's body to reach the cabinet and then lie down there?
I think he more or less manhandled her into it, possibly at the point of a gun. Did he speak on the way to the master bedroom, was she conscious it was her brother who was the intruder, did she climb over June's body to reach the cabinet and then lie down there?
We may never know.
Sheila was on Haliperiodol and under sedation. She would not have a clue what was happening in the few seconds it would take for Bamber to move Sheila a few feet.
How do you believe Sheila committed the massacre ? Please include -
The build up with a fully fit Nevill.
1/2 phone calls,
A big kitchen fight.
2 chambers/breachs & reloads.
What you're saying is that Jeremy pulled Sheila into the master bedroom as part of his staging plan, and that explains why he didn't just do it the easy way and shoot her while subdued or asleep and then stage it from there. I can accept that as a possibility because shooting her in her own bedroom might have left forensic clues and bungled the staging. I'm not saying I agree, but I understand the point.
But that still leaves the problem of how he managed to shoot a peripatetic Sheila in the throat, which I don't necessarily have to deny is possible in order to believe that it is also quite doubtful. Wouldn't she resist and wouldn't there be signs of this? I think that the absence of indications of a struggle on Sheila's nightdress could be turned in Bamber's favour.
--------
I don't believe she did or didn't do anything. I'm neutral. And in my view, Bamber's supporters don't have to explain an alternative narrative to overturn his conviction. It's only necessary to throw one pillar of the Crown's case into doubt and it collapses, but just to emphasise, I don't believe the 'kitchen struggle' is a significant probative issue. It's a red herring. It stands to reason that a deranged psychotic woman with a gun could have overpowered Nevill. I only need say 'could' and that is all the defence requires, just as on other points, that is all the Crown requires.
You ask how Bamber got Sheila into the main bedroom. Then hide behind the 'neutral' stance when I ask how Sheila committed the massacre.
It is true that Bamber just needs to find a technicality on one thing to have a chance of COA referral. However this is a forum and posters give opinions rather than respond to questions by just saying Bamber doesn't have to answer that.
Sheila's nightdress highlights she didn't fight with Nevill or Bamber. She was too weak, zonked out and uncordinated. Espescially for a fit determined man such as Bamber.
Why are you so certain Sheila had a 'nightdress' on?, and not 'naked' or 'semi naked'?..
.., then, she 'cleansed' herself. Before putting a 'fresh' nightdress on to protect her modesty in preparation for her final journey.
You ask how Bamber got Sheila into the main bedroom. Then hide behind the 'neutral' stance when I ask how Sheila committed the massacre.
It is true that Bamber just needs to find a technicality on one thing to have a chance of COA referral.
However this is a forum and posters give opinions rather than respond to questions by just saying Bamber doesn't have to answer that.
Sheila's nightdress highlights she didn't fight with Nevill or Bamber. She was too weak, zonked out and uncordinated. Espescially for a fit determined man such as Bamber.
That's because Bamber doesn't need to explain how Sheila would have committed the massacre. If he is innocent, he doesn't know any more than anybody else. It's another red herring of yours.
Thank you for confirming I am right. Not that confirmation from you was required.
Where does it say in the Forum Rules that unsupported opinions and speculations are required of any poster in particular? And why should I oblige you anyway?
You know this how? Do post up your evidence for us all to see. Presumably this will include mention in the autopsy, a toxicology report, a blood test, a psychiatric report, perhaps a psychopharmacological report too, as well as witness statements from employers confirming she wasn't attending work and from the relatives, all confirming that Sheila Caffell was a walking zombie. How convenient that she should be like that, but you have the evidence, so let's see it and be impressed.
Sheila could not sleep that night, she had a late night snack.
As per autopsy.
Her digestive system was just slower than the other peoples.
Really!
That just means she would put her nightie on. Rather than walk around WHF naked with her father in the house.
I am not saying Sheila was walking around the house naked PRIOR to the Psychotic episode.
So why wouldn't she be wearing her nightdress during this mysterious midnight snack ? She had just got out of bed.
You obviously don't know the evidence. Which is why you keep creating long threads asking questions. Then say 'Bamber doesn't need to explain' when other questions are asked.
Of course it was easy for Bamber to move & kill Sheila. She was a recovering anorexic, on Haliperiodol & under sedation.
Why are you so certain Sheila had a 'nightdress' on?, and not 'naked' or 'semi naked'?..
.., then, she 'cleansed' herself. Before putting a 'fresh' nightdress on to protect her modesty in preparation for her final journey.
Why do you believe Sheila put on a nightdress, and no footwear for 'her final journey' ? The exact same nightclothes everyone else was wearing.
We're back to being disingenuous again. I do know the evidence. I've seen the blood screening. It's inconclusive about cannabinoids and shows only a moderate level of psychotropics present.
I repeat my question: do you have any of the supporting evidence I referred to? You're the one making the assertions about Sheila, in which we're supposed to believe she was a zombie.
The legal position is that Bamber doesn't have to prove anything in regard to some thesis about Sheila's actions. I may or may not comment on what Sheila could have done, but it's not required. I don't have to. If you don't like it, then stop answering my threads. Start your own threads and see if anybody's interested.
Under sedation....? Are you telling us she'd taken an overdose or is it that you just don't know what you're talking about and you've made that up? Aside from that, I've yet to see you demonstrate that she could not have overpowered Nevill. It would be a good start if you actually produce some evidence along the lines I've requested. We are interested in facts here, aren't we?
Sheila had the blue socks on, found by her body.
Sheila took them off before her final journey. The Bible page refers to David who walked 'barefoot' up the mountain.
She almost certainly had clothes on during late night snack, then took at least two guns....
...Went upstairs with guns and undressed.
Why did Sheila take blue socks off before killing herself. Would they not be Nevill's socks as they were on his side of the bed.
Have you got a source they were Sheila's socks ?
You obviously have not read the COA summary. Which I posted the link for you yesterday.
You also don't know about Haloperidol. I suggest you read up on this.
I post sources all the time. Such as yesterdays COA information. Where are yours ?
Anyway it seems you're role is to look at possible ways Bamber could get released on a technicality. Things that Bamber does not have to answer, you won't.
Sorry, that won't wash with me.
I know enough about psychotropic medications to know that she would only have been sedated if she had taken an overdose. The fact that you have got that little point wrong is a telling clue that you don't know what you are talking about.
Now, let's just summarise where we are:
(i). You have made a specific assertion about Sheila: that she was in a zombie-like state.
(ii). I am asking you for evidence to support the assertion.
(iii). I have explained that I have already seen the blood results, and I have mentioned what those found and how they do not support your assertion.
(iv). You reply with the irrelevant, disingenuous rubbish above, evading responsibility as usual.
About two weeks ago, I caught you out lying about the blood tests on the moderator. Is this another one of your lies?
You are a liar. What tests ?
Sheila was on Haloperidol. She was under sedation. She was a recovering anorexic. Sources exist which I have posted before. Do some work and find them.
You also don't know what Sheila was like the days and hours before the massacre. Again do some work and find out. I'm not you're personal source provider.
Anyway I will post the list of forensic evidence which incriminates Bamber. Each point has at least one source. I wanted to avoid doing this as David gets very frustrated and posts images & abuse which ruins the forum.
And please don't keep posting rubbish trying to keep impartial. And don't lie.
You are a liar. What tests ?
Sheila was on Haloperidol. She was under sedation. She was a recovering anorexic. Sources exist which I have posted before. Do some work and find them.
You also don't know what Sheila was like the days and hours before the massacre. Again do some work and find out. I'm not you're personal source provider.
Anyway I will post the list of forensic evidence which incriminates Bamber. Each point has at least one source. I wanted to avoid doing this as David gets very frustrated and posts images & abuse which ruins the forum.
And please don't keep posting rubbish trying to keep impartial. And don't lie.
LuminousWanderer did ask for sources. He's obviously not very well read on the case & tries to mask it with long posts.
Absolute rubbish!
You state:
40. Sheila under sedation - Not disputed - COA.
As if that can be an adequate response!
Which Court of Appeal hearing and ruling was this? You don't seriously expect me to remember every single point in a voluminous appellate ruling?
And what is meant by 'Not disputed'? How is that distinguished from what you call, 'Accepted Fact'? And that's before the other questions I've already asked which you are not answering.
I posted the COA link for you yesterday. I won't again.
Keep up.
This isn't going to work on me. Even if I'm wrong, I am just asking you questions and asking you to support a very important assertion that you make: that doesn't make me a liar.
First, define 'sedation', otherwise you're being glib.
Second, produce the evidence that she was under sedation - the specific term you use.
Third, produce the evidence I have asked for or admit you don't have it because it's not there. Do one or the other, then we can assess properly the validity of what you claim.
Bear in mind why I am asking these questions - you are the one making the assertion, and it's a very critical assertion, that not only could Sheila have slept through Jeremy's massacre, but she could not possibly have carried out her own.
So let's see the evidence. I've read the majority of the documents and I'm telling you I've seen nothing whatsoever to support your assertions. It's my belief that you are either lying or you have misinterpreted what you've read.
Note to moderators - please keep these comments up. I've already established that this person is a liar on a previous point, i.e. the blood on the silencer, and you'll note how quick he is to call me a liar just for asking questions.
Sorry, that won't wash with me.Pamela told her husband Sheila was in a zombie-like state on the telephone.
I know enough about psychotropic medications to know that she would only have been sedated if she had taken an overdose. The fact that you have got that little point wrong is a telling clue that you don't know what you are talking about.
Now, let's just summarise where we are:
(i). You have made a specific assertion about Sheila: that she was in a zombie-like state.
(ii). I am asking you for evidence to support the assertion.
(iii). I have explained that I have already seen the blood results, and I have mentioned what those found and how they do not support your assertion.
(iv). You reply with the irrelevant, disingenuous rubbish above, evading responsibility as usual.
About two weeks ago, I caught you out lying about the blood tests on the moderator. Is this another one of your lies?
No, no, no, no....! This won't work on me, Adam. I have asked you a series of reasonable questions. Don't be glib and evasive with me.
I'm planning on starting a Part Three thread on Sheila Caffell anyway, which will address the issue of psychotropics and cannabis, and if you don't satisfy me on this thread, I will just raise these questions on the new thread, and if they remain unanswered, that's fine, but that speaks for itself, in that it means there is no relevant evidence to support what you say; and, if I'm wrong in my (understandable) suspicious about your truthfulness, no problem, I'll acknowledge that as well. Certainly if Sheila was in a zombie-state, that would clarify a great deal. But if she wasn't, I would say that's quite significant too.
I have just posted a list of 66 pieces of evidence all with at least one source.
Please provide the post where you say I lied about blood tests. Second request. Or apologise for lying.
I rarely speak about blood tests & don't recall doing so recently.
LuminousWanderer did ask for sources. He's obviously not very well read on the case & tries to mask it with long posts.
He will say Bamber & himself do not have to answer these points as all Bamber has to do is find a technicality on one thing, which he is looking for. Which is his chosen approach. However all posters on here debate on all the evidence whether a guilter or supporter.
Sources in capitals.
1. Perfectly clean palm of hands on Sheila - Not disputed - COA
2. One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila - Not disputed - COA
3. Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila. Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected - Not disputed - COA, BAMBER'S DEFENCE.
4. Well manicured nails on Sheila - Not disputed - COA.
5. No broken nails - Not disputed COA.
6. Nails in tact - Not disputed - COA.
7. No marks or indentations on Sheila's fingers - Not disputed - COA.
8. No blood on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.
9. No dirt on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.
10. No powder on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.
11. Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE, BAMBER.
12. No trace of any lead dust coating on Sheila - Not disputed - COA.
13. No traces of the lubricant from re loading twice - Not disputed - COA
14. Very clean feet - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA.
15. Feet free from significant blood staining - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA.
16. Bamber doing nothing between 3.10am - 3.26/36am - Not disputed - BAMBER
17. No debris such as sugar on feet - Not disputed - COA.
18. No foot injuries after bare footed aggressive movement around big house & brutal fight - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST.
19. Only Sheila Caffell's blood on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.
20. No presence of firearm residue on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.
21. No trace of rifle oil on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.
22. No mention of nightdress damage from agressive movement and brutal kitchen fight - Not disputed - COA.
23. No facial injuries on Sheila - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST.
24. Sheila avoiding kitchen fight injuries with no body or face protection - Not disputed - FORUM.
25. Nevill's massive height/weight advantage over Sheila - Not disputed - ACCEPTED FACT.
26. Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT.
27. Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT.
28. Nevill being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting had just got out of bed - Not disputed - PHOTOS.
29. Sheila being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting she had just got out of bed - Not disputed - PHOTOS.
30. Paint in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES. .
31. Aga scratch's - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
32. Blood in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
33. No blood in the rifle end - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
34. Sheila's legs pulled after second shot - Not disputed - COA.
35. Blood underneath the bible - Not disputed - COA.
36. A lot of blood on Nevill's side of the bed - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS.
37. Large scale multiple mental & physical effects of Haloperidol - Not disputed. - INTERNET ARTICLES, YOUTUBE.
38. Sheila having Haloperidol in her body - Not disputed - COA.
39. Sheila's condition hours before the massacre - Not disputed. Bamber being a main witness - BAMBER & OTHER PEOPLE.
40. Sheila under sedation - Not disputed - COA.
41. Easy window entrance into WHF - Not disputed. Agreed by Bamber. - BAMBER.
42. Shutting kitchen window from outside - Disputed in 2017 but 20 independent sources prove otherwise - 20 SOURCES IN THE LIBRARY.
43. No better massacre weapon options for Bamber - Not disputed - FORUM.
44. Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell - Not disputed after Bamber hired him - WILKES'S BOOK.
45. Easy bike routes to WHF - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
46. Bike brought to Bamber's cottage just before the massacre - Not disputed - BAMBERS POLICE INTERVIEWS.
47. June not waking or getting woken by Nevill - Not disputed - COA.
48. Nevill's back burns - Not disputed. Suggestion burns were caused minus silencer rejected - BAMBER, TONIGHT PROGRAMME.
49. 2012 CCRC court judgement - judicial review request made & rejected - JUDICIAL REVIEW DOCUMENT.
50. The twins not waking - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
51. Bamber's call to the police - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
52. Nevill's horrific injuries - Not disputed - COURT OF APPEAL.
53. Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE STATEMENTS.
54. No valid Sheila scenario - Not disputed - OS & FORUM.
55. Bamber's 3am call to Julie - Not disputed - BAMBER.
56. Nevill's 2/4 second call to Bamber - Not disputed - BAMBER.
57. Bamber asking the police to pick him up - Not disputed - WILKES, CRIMES, HEARTS & CORONETS.
58. Nevill's back burns - Not disputed - BAMBER.
59. Ease for a man to lift & carry a woman - Not disputed. YOUTUBE VIDEO.
60. Crime scenes of 5 individuals - Not disputed - COA.
61. Bamber's found hacksaw - Not disputed - BAMBER.
62. Bible on Sheila's arm- Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS.
63. Only execution period available to Bamber, 12am - 3am - Not disputed - BAMBER
64. Housekeeper evidence of items around the sink being moved - Not disputed- PB WS, WILKES'S BOOK
65. Only Sheila receiving a contact shot in a location that produces back splatter- Not disputed, COA.
66. Bloodied plam print on Sheila's nightdress - Not disputed. COA
What won't work ?
I gave you the link yesterday on one of you're own threads.
Pamela told her husband Sheila was in a zombie-like state on the telephone.
There's no reason to believe there were multiple blood groups on Sheila's nightie or evidence that she struggled with anyone else. Far from it.
Is that in a witness statement? Do we know when she made that observation?It's not the exact wording to the one in the archives but there's another statement Mike has and it may be in that one.
Why not in regard to the blood? Do you have any evidence to back that up?
Is that in a witness statement? Do we know when she made that observation?I don't think there is, but neither is there evidence to suggest she struggled with her parents, nor Jeremy for that matter.
Why not in regard to the blood? Do you have any evidence to back that up?
Which is a completely and totally inadequate response to my highly-pertinent and highly-specific questions about the assertion YOU make!
You know what my questions are. You know that they are relevant. You know I've seen the blood screening, because I've just told you about it. You know I've read the majority of the other case documents, because I've quoted from them or referred to them.
Where we're left is - It's up to you whether you want to carry on evading the issue or actually answer my questions.
You rarely speak about blood tests? Funny, a while ago you seemed to be an expert. I won't post anything further about what happened previously. You DID lie, quite brazenly.
I should be pleased, in fact, if you stopped posting on my threads altogether, as I genuinely don't believe you have anything useful to say - but then, you're not unique in that regard.
It's not the exact wording to the one in the archives but there's another statement Mike has and it may be in that one.
So you can't quote my post where you say I lied.
If there was one time when a post needed to be quoted. It is now. To prove you are not a liar.
You can't and you lied.
OK, thanks. To be fair, I have found two statements from Pamela and she does mention that Sheila sounded not herself on the phone, but that's really as far as it goes.It's in Chapter 19 of CAL's book and the exact word "zombie" is used.
Thanks for the 66'
"54. No valid Sheila scenario - Not disputed - OS & FORUM. "
What?
It's in Chapter 19 of CAL's book and the exact word "zombie" is used.
OK, I'm not sure we can consider that an authoritative source however - or at least, I can't.It's here(page 158): https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=Jeremy+Bamber+doctor+harris&source=bl&ots=h8JjICRjUo&sig=5Pfrr70m5aMKlnvCNud739SGf00&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw7aa0sKvaAhUEEVAKHRPzD8MQ6AEIYzAJ#v=onepage&q=Jeremy%20Bamber%20doctor%20harris&f=false
It's here(page 158): https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=Jeremy+Bamber+doctor+harris&source=bl&ots=h8JjICRjUo&sig=5Pfrr70m5aMKlnvCNud739SGf00&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw7aa0sKvaAhUEEVAKHRPzD8MQ6AEIYzAJ#v=onepage&q=Jeremy%20Bamber%20doctor%20harris&f=false
It's in Chapter 19 of CAL's book and the exact word "zombie" is used.
No one has been able to give a credible explanation of how Sheila committed the massacre. Which matches the crime scene evidence.
Feel free to attempt to be the first.
Well you only need to read Sheila's Psychiatrist report to see she thought her children/family members were Possessed by the Devil.
Is that not a 'credible explanation' for the morning of the 7th with Sheila's history on record.?
Sheila is having a psychotic episode. She has been difficult to control and has already attacked Neville gouging his arms. She is persuaded to go back to bed but it doesn’t last long and she is up again. She finds one of the the rifles and locks herself in the bathroom. Neville gets up and tries to persuade her to go back to bed but she says she has a gun and will shoot herself if Neville doesn’t get Jeremy. Her plan is that the whole family will die.This is a work of fiction courtesy of Simon & Schuster UK Ltd..
Neville calls Jeremy and tells him to come to the house he then tries to make a follow on call to a doctor or maybe the police but before he finishes dialing he hears noises from upstairs. He drops the receiver and rushes up to the bedroom where he sees June has been shot multiple times. She has fallen out of bed but is alive. He crouches beside her. Sheila has come back into the bedroom behind Neville. She is naked apart from a pair of Neville’s socks. She comes up behind him and shoots him four times in the head and jaw. Neville is badly dazed but gets up and staggers out on to the landing and down the stairs. Sheila shoots again hitting Neville in the shoulder.
He collapses at the bottom of the stairs. His watch falling off and being dragged under the carpet as he crawls into the kitchen. He tries to reach the phone but Sheila is back. She shoots him again hitting him in the arm but then the gun is empty. Neville pulls himself to his feet. Crashes into the kitchen table when he is bludgeoned with the rifle. He is knocked unconscious and falls over some chairs. His pajamas fall down and he ends up with his head in the coal scuttle.
She decides to kill the twins but is worried they might wake up. She goes to the gun cupboard and finds the silencer and reloads the rifle. She goes upstairs and realizes that June is still alive. She has managed to get to the door but has collapsed. Sheila fires a shot to the head which kills June. She then goes and shoots the twins.
She imagines hearing Neville taunting her. She reloads the gun and shoots Neville twice more in the head. She then for some deluded reason decides to burn something onto his back. She goes back to hide in the gun cupboard. She is waiting for Jeremy but decides to shoot herself. She can’t manage it and so takes off the silencer and drops it in the box.
She realizes that she is having her period and feels dirty. She goes to the bathroom and showers. After that she puts on a tampon. She goes back upstairs and dons a clean nightie. She decides to read the Bible in preparation for her death. The Bible she knows is in the main bedroom.
She sits on the floor leaning against the bedside cabinet. She reads some passages and then shoots herself in the neck. She waits but doesn’t die. Blood drips onto the Bible and runs down onto the nightdress. She shuffles forward ruffing up the back of her nightdress. Puts the Bible on her chest and shoots herself again. She slumps back and the Bible falls off onto the floor.
Sheila is having a psychotic episode. She has been difficult to control and has already attacked Neville gouging his arms. She is persuaded to go back to bed but it doesn’t last long and she is up again. She finds one of the the rifles and locks herself in the bathroom. Neville gets up and tries to persuade her to go back to bed but she says she has a gun and will shoot herself if Neville doesn’t get Jeremy. Her plan is that the whole family will die.
Neville calls Jeremy and tells him to come to the house he then tries to make a follow on call to a doctor or maybe the police but before he finishes dialing he hears noises from upstairs. He drops the receiver and rushes up to the bedroom where he sees June has been shot multiple times. She has fallen out of bed but is alive. He crouches beside her. Sheila has come back into the bedroom behind Neville. She is naked apart from a pair of Neville’s socks. She comes up behind him and shoots him four times in the head and jaw. Neville is badly dazed but gets up and staggers out on to the landing and down the stairs. Sheila shoots again hitting Neville in the shoulder.
He collapses at the bottom of the stairs. His watch falling off and being dragged under the carpet as he crawls into the kitchen. He tries to reach the phone but Sheila is back. She shoots him again hitting him in the arm but then the gun is empty. Neville pulls himself to his feet. Crashes into the kitchen table when he is bludgeoned with the rifle. He is knocked unconscious and falls over some chairs. His pajamas fall down and he ends up with his head in the coal scuttle.
She decides to kill the twins but is worried they might wake up. She goes to the gun cupboard and finds the silencer and reloads the rifle. She goes upstairs and realizes that June is still alive. She has managed to get to the door but has collapsed. Sheila fires a shot to the head which kills June. She then goes and shoots the twins.
She imagines hearing Neville taunting her. She reloads the gun and shoots Neville twice more in the head. She then for some deluded reason decides to burn something onto his back. She goes back to hide in the gun cupboard. She is waiting for Jeremy but decides to shoot herself. She can’t manage it and so takes off the silencer and drops it in the box.
She realizes that she is having her period and feels dirty. She goes to the bathroom and showers. After that she puts on a tampon. She goes back upstairs and dons a clean nightie. She decides to read the Bible in preparation for her death. The Bible she knows is in the main bedroom.
She sits on the floor leaning against the bedside cabinet. She reads some passages and then shoots herself in the neck. She waits but doesn’t die. Blood drips onto the Bible and runs down onto the nightdress. She shuffles forward ruffing up the back of her nightdress. Puts the Bible on her chest and shoots herself again. She slumps back and the Bible falls off onto the floor.
This is a work of fiction courtesy of Simon & Schuster UK Ltd..
It was a reply to Adam’s challenge to write a scenario that showed Sheila committed the murders while fitting the evidence.It falls at the first sentence because Sheila was never difficult to control. She was her own worst enemy.
His claim that she was heavily sedated is erroneous. Dr Angelou was asked by Sheila to reduce the dose of Halpol because of sleepiness. She ordered a reduction of 50mg. Her assistant only gave 100mg.
I've always thought that two rifles had been in use.
Anthony Pargeter's rifle and Neville Bamber's rifle? = 2 rifles?
Yes.
My God, that is the darkness, that shows the Light.
We're back to being disingenuous again. I do know the evidence. I've seen the blood screening. It's inconclusive about cannabinoids and shows only a moderate level of psychotropics present.
I repeat my question: do you have any of the supporting evidence I referred to? You're the one making the assertions about Sheila, in which we're supposed to believe she was a zombie.
To be fair to Adam, He is to some extent honest with his Zombie theory when it comes to his crime scene reconstruction. He openly admits that he believes Jeremy carried Sheila from her bed like "groom carries the bride" to where she was found.
To be fair to Adam, He is to some extent honest with his Zombie theory when it comes to his crime scene reconstruction. He openly admits that he believes Jeremy carried Sheila from her bed like "groom carries the bride" to where she was found.
All he needs to do now is explain how Nevill got shot in bed without leaving any blood on the bed.
I am beyond certain there were two rifles used. However I think there may have been three, not sure where that ties in....where the third one is....
Sheila is having a psychotic episode. She has been difficult to control and has already attacked Neville gouging his arms. She is persuaded to go back to bed but it doesn’t last long and she is up again. She finds one of the the rifles and locks herself in the bathroom. Neville gets up and tries to persuade her to go back to bed but she says she has a gun and will shoot herself if Neville doesn’t get Jeremy. Her plan is that the whole family will die.
Neville calls Jeremy and tells him to come to the house he then tries to make a follow on call to a doctor or maybe the police but before he finishes dialing he hears noises from upstairs. He drops the receiver and rushes up to the bedroom where he sees June has been shot multiple times. She has fallen out of bed but is alive. He crouches beside her. Sheila has come back into the bedroom behind Neville. She is naked apart from a pair of Neville’s socks. She comes up behind him and shoots him four times in the head and jaw. Neville is badly dazed but gets up and staggers out on to the landing and down the stairs. Sheila shoots again hitting Neville in the shoulder.
He collapses at the bottom of the stairs. His watch falling off and being dragged under the carpet as he crawls into the kitchen. He tries to reach the phone but Sheila is back. She shoots him again hitting him in the arm but then the gun is empty. Neville pulls himself to his feet. Crashes into the kitchen table when he is bludgeoned with the rifle. He is knocked unconscious and falls over some chairs. His pajamas fall down and he ends up with his head in the coal scuttle.
She decides to kill the twins but is worried they might wake up. She goes to the gun cupboard and finds the silencer and reloads the rifle. She goes upstairs and realizes that June is still alive. She has managed to get to the door but has collapsed. Sheila fires a shot to the head which kills June. She then goes and shoots the twins.
She imagines hearing Neville taunting her. She reloads the gun and shoots Neville twice more in the head. She then for some deluded reason decides to burn something onto his back. She goes back to hide in the gun cupboard. She is waiting for Jeremy but decides to shoot herself. She can’t manage it and so takes off the silencer and drops it in the box.
She realizes that she is having her period and feels dirty. She goes to the bathroom and showers. After that she puts on a tampon. She goes back upstairs and dons a clean nightie. She decides to read the Bible in preparation for her death. The Bible she knows is in the main bedroom.
She sits on the floor leaning against the bedside cabinet. She reads some passages and then shoots herself in the neck. She waits but doesn’t die. Blood drips onto the Bible and runs down onto the nightdress. She shuffles forward ruffing up the back of her nightdress. Puts the Bible on her chest and shoots herself again. She slumps back and the Bible falls off onto the floor.
Sheila is having a psychotic episode. She has been difficult to control and has already attacked Neville gouging his arms. She is persuaded to go back to bed but it doesn’t last long and she is up again. She finds one of the the rifles and locks herself in the bathroom. Neville gets up and tries to persuade her to go back to bed but she says she has a gun and will shoot herself if Neville doesn’t get Jeremy. Her plan is that the whole family will die.
Neville calls Jeremy and tells him to come to the house he then tries to make a follow on call to a doctor or maybe the police but before he finishes dialing he hears noises from upstairs. He drops the receiver and rushes up to the bedroom where he sees June has been shot multiple times. She has fallen out of bed but is alive. He crouches beside her. Sheila has come back into the bedroom behind Neville. She is naked apart from a pair of Neville’s socks. She comes up behind him and shoots him four times in the head and jaw. Neville is badly dazed but gets up and staggers out on to the landing and down the stairs. Sheila shoots again hitting Neville in the shoulder.
He collapses at the bottom of the stairs. His watch falling off and being dragged under the carpet as he crawls into the kitchen. He tries to reach the phone but Sheila is back. She shoots him again hitting him in the arm but then the gun is empty. Neville pulls himself to his feet. Crashes into the kitchen table when he is bludgeoned with the rifle. He is knocked unconscious and falls over some chairs. His pajamas fall down and he ends up with his head in the coal scuttle.
She decides to kill the twins but is worried they might wake up. She goes to the gun cupboard and finds the silencer and reloads the rifle. She goes upstairs and realizes that June is still alive. She has managed to get to the door but has collapsed. Sheila fires a shot to the head which kills June. She then goes and shoots the twins.
She imagines hearing Neville taunting her. She reloads the gun and shoots Neville twice more in the head. She then for some deluded reason decides to burn something onto his back. She goes back to hide in the gun cupboard. She is waiting for Jeremy but decides to shoot herself. She can’t manage it and so takes off the silencer and drops it in the box.
She realizes that she is having her period and feels dirty. She goes to the bathroom and showers. After that she puts on a tampon. She goes back upstairs and dons a clean nightie. She decides to read the Bible in preparation for her death. The Bible she knows is in the main bedroom.
She sits on the floor leaning against the bedside cabinet. She reads some passages and then shoots herself in the neck. She waits but doesn’t die. Blood drips onto the Bible and runs down onto the nightdress. She shuffles forward ruffing up the back of her nightdress. Puts the Bible on her chest and shoots herself again. She slumps back and the Bible falls off onto the floor.
'4.10. We note that Sheila has no marks on her nightdress other than the post-injury and post-mortem blood splatter, suggesting that she was not in a struggle.
This is my Bamber scenario. This is copied from my 2015 thread. So happy to modify. It's straight forward.
Cycle to WHF:
Evidence - Bike available brought to WHF just before the massacre. Easy journey. Unseen.
Get into WHF
Evidence - Bathroom window loose or open. Quiet ground floor entrance. Bamber said he knew how to get in through this window.
Pick up rifle:
Evidence ' Fully loaded rifle available as stated by Bamber.
Enter main bedroom:
Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed first as potential to provide most resistance.
Shoot an in bed June and Neville:
Evidence - 11 shots were fired in the main bedroom opening salvo suggesting rifle was emptied in opening salvo. June and Neville shot in or near the bed.
Go to reload or chase Neville:
Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen. Neville found in kitchen.
Kitchen fight:
Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there. Upturned and smashed kitchen items. Smashed watch. Scratch marks on aga.
Shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:
Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into a knocked out Neville.
Reload. Return upstairs:
Evidence - All other shots upstairs. Bamber knew how to reoad.
Either wake and shoot, shoot an already awake Sheila or shoot an asleep Sheila
Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom. Sheila physically very weak, under sedation & on Haloperidol so easy to control.
Shoot June twice more:
Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Final head shots required.
Reload, shoot the sleeping twins:
Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.
Stage the scene:
Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila. Silencer put in a box. Neville's back burnt to check for signs of life.
Exit out of kitchen window:
Evidence - Twenty sources say it can be banged shut from outside.
Cycle home:
Evidence - Bike found at Bambers cottage.
Sheila gouged Nevill's arms ? There is nothing on the COA document about gouged arms. Anyway, Nevill went back to bed with his gouged arms. I assume Sheila was wearing her nightie at this time as 27 year old women don't walk around naked in front of their fathers.
People having psychotic episodes may well walk around naked
Sheila locks herself in the bathroom for some reason. And wants the full set dead. Which includes Bamber who is at home sleeping 'like a log'. Sheila hardly spoke during supper. Bamber must have really upset her when they spoke in the fields earlier in the day. What a pity he can't remember what they spoke about.
Catatonic phase before manic episodes
Nevill weakly agrees to ring Bamber at 3.10am & doesn't hear or see Sheila leave the bathroom & go upstairs with a rifle. You have agreed Nevill did not ring Chelmsford police at 3.26am as you are saying things had escalated before then.
Correct
Sheila starts shooting June who like Bamber was sleeping 'like a log' despite all the noise.
What noise?
Despite not hearing/seeing Sheila go upstairs, Nevill hears shots upstairs.
More likely he heard June
Sheila obviously forgot to bring socks to WHF. Although Nevill has let Sheila wear his socks, she shows no gratitude & starts shooting Nevill. Sheila has now taken off her nightie for some reason & is naked, apart from Nevill's blue socks, holding a rifle.
Correct although I doubt Sheila would care whose socks she was wearing
The evidence is Sheila's upstairs shots into (according to you), an out of bed and wide awake Nevill were from close range. However he fails totally to physically confront Sheila upstairs. Instead rushing downstairs.
Neville has no chance to defend himself. It all happened very quickly. After four shots to the head he was in no state to put up a fight
After getting downstairs Nevill's watch instantly and magically gets damaged & falls off his wrist. He still doesn't fight back but attempts to get to the phone . A bit late to phone anyone perhaps ?
Not magic just physics
Sheila then horriffically continually hits Nevill so hard the rifle stock breaks, furniture is upturned, the ceiling light smashes and the aga is scratched.
Correct
Sheila then puts the silencer on ? A bit late to worry about people waking.
That may seem logical to a rational person but not to a delusional one[/i]
Sheila then 'imagines' a dead Nevill taunting her. So shoots him again. Then burns Nevill's back for 'a deluded' reason.
Correct
Sheila then hides in the gun cupboard, naked apart from Nevill's blue socks, and waits for Jeremy. How was Jeremy going to get inside ?
By that time she may have given up on Jeremy or intended to let him in herself, or when she saw the police her plan changed, or she didn’t think about it
Sheila decides to have a shower and puts the silencer back in the box. You are saying she used the silencer but not how her blood got inside. Be easier to say it wasn't used at all.
It was never proven to be Sheila’s blood. It was a mixture.
Sheila put on her nightie, which she had previously taken off so she could committ the massacre naked apart from Nevill's blue socks.
We don’t know whether she had the nightie on earlier or not
Sheila then gets June's bible before giving herself a contact neck shot, although there was no blood splatter in the rifle nozzle.