Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two: Jeremy's Plan

[Luminous Wanderer]

I posted the COA link for you yesterday. I won't again.

Keep up.

No, no, no, no....!  This won't work on me, Adam.  I have asked you a series of reasonable questions.  Don't be glib and evasive with me.

I'm planning on starting a Part Three thread on Sheila Caffell anyway, which will address the issue of psychotropics and cannabis, and if you don't satisfy me on this thread, I will just raise these questions on the new thread, and if they remain unanswered, that's fine, but that speaks for itself, in that it means there is no relevant evidence to support what you say; and, if I'm wrong in my (understandable) suspicious about your truthfulness, no problem, I'll acknowledge that as well.  Certainly if Sheila was in a zombie-state, that would clarify a great deal. But if she wasn't, I would say that's quite significant too.

[Adam]

This isn't going to work on me.  Even if I'm wrong, I am just asking you questions and asking you to support a very important assertion that you make: that doesn't make me a liar.

First, define 'sedation', otherwise you're being glib. 

Second, produce the evidence that she was under sedation - the specific term you use.

Third, produce the evidence I have asked for or admit you don't have it because it's not there.  Do one or the other, then we can assess properly the validity of what you claim.

Bear in mind why I am asking these questions - you are the one making the assertion, and it's a very critical assertion, that not only could Sheila have slept through Jeremy's massacre, but she could not possibly have carried out her own.

So let's see the evidence.  I've read the majority of the documents and I'm telling you I've seen nothing whatsoever to support your assertions.  It's my belief that you are either lying or you have misinterpreted what you've read.

Note to moderators - please keep these comments up.  I've already established that this person is a liar on a previous point, i.e. the blood on the silencer, and you'll note how quick he is to call me a liar just for asking questions.

I have just posted a list of 66 pieces of evidence all with at least one source.

Please provide the post where you say I lied about blood tests. Second request. Or apologise for lying.

I rarely speak about blood tests & don't recall doing so recently.

[Steve_uk]

Sorry, that won't wash with me.

I know enough about psychotropic medications to know that she would only have been sedated if she had taken an overdose.  The fact that you have got that little point wrong is a telling clue that you don't know what you are talking about.

Now, let's just summarise where we are:

(i). You have made a specific assertion about Sheila: that she was in a zombie-like state.

(ii). I am asking you for evidence to support the assertion.

(iii). I have explained that I have already seen the blood results, and I have mentioned what those found and how they do not support your assertion.

(iv). You reply with the irrelevant, disingenuous rubbish above, evading responsibility as usual.

About two weeks ago, I caught you out lying about the blood tests on the moderator.  Is this another one of your lies?

Pamela told her husband Sheila was in a zombie-like state on the telephone.

There's no reason to believe there were multiple blood groups on Sheila's nightie or evidence that she struggled with anyone else. Far from it.

[Adam]

No, no, no, no....!  This won't work on me, Adam.  I have asked you a series of reasonable questions.  Don't be glib and evasive with me.

I'm planning on starting a Part Three thread on Sheila Caffell anyway, which will address the issue of psychotropics and cannabis, and if you don't satisfy me on this thread, I will just raise these questions on the new thread, and if they remain unanswered, that's fine, but that speaks for itself, in that it means there is no relevant evidence to support what you say; and, if I'm wrong in my (understandable) suspicious about your truthfulness, no problem, I'll acknowledge that as well.  Certainly if Sheila was in a zombie-state, that would clarify a great deal. But if she wasn't, I would say that's quite significant too.

What won't work ?

I gave you the link yesterday on one of you're own threads.

However you quickly created another thread and didn't comment on 3 of the 4 pages of the thread I gave you the link on.

Now you are asking me for the link again. You have not got the capacity to move so fast.

[Luminous Wanderer]

I have just posted a list of 66 pieces of evidence all with at least one source.

Which is a completely and totally inadequate response to my highly-pertinent and highly-specific questions about the assertion YOU make!

You know what my questions are.  You know that they are relevant.  You know I've seen the blood screening, because I've just told you about it.  You know I've read the majority of the other case documents, because I've quoted from them or referred to them. 

Where we're left is - It's up to you whether you want to carry on evading the issue or actually answer my questions. 

Please provide the post where you say I lied about blood tests. Second request. Or apologise for lying.

I rarely speak about blood tests & don't recall doing so recently.

You rarely speak about blood tests?  Funny, a while ago you seemed to be an expert.  I won't post anything further about what happened previously.  You DID lie, quite brazenly. 

I should be pleased, in fact, if you stopped posting on my threads altogether, as I genuinely don't believe you have anything useful to say - but then, you're not unique in that regard.

[Nigel]

LuminousWanderer did ask for sources. He's obviously not very well read on the case & tries to mask it with long posts.

He will say Bamber & himself do not have to answer these points as all Bamber has to do is find a technicality on one thing, which he is looking for. Which is his chosen approach. However all posters on here debate on all the evidence whether a guilter or supporter.

Sources in capitals.

1. Perfectly clean palm of hands on Sheila - Not disputed - COA

2. One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila - Not disputed - COA

3. Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila.  Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected - Not disputed - COA, BAMBER'S DEFENCE.

4. Well manicured nails on Sheila - Not disputed - COA.

5. No broken nails - Not disputed COA.

6. Nails in tact - Not disputed - COA.

7. No marks or indentations on Sheila's fingers - Not disputed - COA.

8. No blood on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.

9. No dirt on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.

10. No powder on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.

11. Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE, BAMBER.

12. No trace of any lead dust coating on Sheila - Not disputed - COA.

13. No traces of the lubricant from re loading twice - Not disputed - COA

14. Very clean feet - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA.

15. Feet free from significant blood staining - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA.

16. Bamber doing nothing between 3.10am - 3.26/36am - Not disputed - BAMBER

17. No debris such as sugar on feet - Not disputed - COA.

18. No foot injuries after bare footed aggressive movement around big house & brutal fight - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST.

19. Only Sheila Caffell's blood on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.

20. No presence of firearm residue on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.

21. No trace of rifle oil on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.

22. No mention of nightdress damage from agressive movement and brutal kitchen fight - Not disputed - COA.

23. No facial injuries on Sheila - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST.

24. Sheila avoiding kitchen fight injuries with no body or face protection - Not disputed - FORUM.

25. Nevill's massive height/weight advantage over Sheila - Not disputed - ACCEPTED FACT.

26. Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT.

27. Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT.

28. Nevill being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting had just got out of bed - Not disputed - PHOTOS.

29. Sheila being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting she had just got out of bed - Not disputed - PHOTOS.

30. Paint in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES. .

31. Aga scratch's - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES.

32. Blood in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES.

33. No blood in the rifle end - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.

34. Sheila's legs pulled after second shot - Not disputed - COA.

35. Blood underneath the bible - Not disputed - COA.

36. A lot of blood on Nevill's side of the bed - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS.

37. Large scale multiple mental & physical effects of Haloperidol - Not disputed. - INTERNET ARTICLES, YOUTUBE.

38. Sheila having Haloperidol in her body - Not disputed - COA.

39. Sheila's condition hours before the massacre - Not disputed. Bamber being a main witness - BAMBER & OTHER PEOPLE.

40. Sheila under sedation - Not disputed - COA.

41. Easy window entrance into WHF - Not disputed. Agreed by Bamber. - BAMBER.

42. Shutting kitchen window from outside - Disputed in 2017 but 20 independent sources prove otherwise - 20 SOURCES IN THE LIBRARY.

43. No better massacre weapon options for Bamber - Not disputed - FORUM.

44. Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell - Not disputed after Bamber hired him - WILKES'S BOOK.

45. Easy bike routes to WHF - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.

46. Bike brought to Bamber's cottage just before the massacre - Not disputed - BAMBERS POLICE INTERVIEWS.

47. June not waking or getting woken by Nevill - Not disputed - COA.

48. Nevill's back burns - Not disputed. Suggestion burns were caused minus silencer rejected - BAMBER, TONIGHT PROGRAMME.

49. 2012 CCRC court judgement - judicial review request made & rejected - JUDICIAL REVIEW DOCUMENT.

50. The twins not waking - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.

51. Bamber's call to the police - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.

52. Nevill's horrific injuries - Not disputed - COURT OF APPEAL.

53. Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE STATEMENTS.

54. No valid Sheila scenario - Not disputed - OS & FORUM.

55. Bamber's 3am call to Julie - Not disputed - BAMBER.

56. Nevill's 2/4 second call to Bamber - Not disputed - BAMBER.

57. Bamber asking the police to pick him up - Not disputed - WILKES, CRIMES, HEARTS & CORONETS.

58. Nevill's back burns - Not disputed - BAMBER.

59. Ease for a man to lift & carry a woman - Not disputed. YOUTUBE VIDEO.

60. Crime scenes of 5 individuals - Not disputed - COA. 

61. Bamber's found hacksaw - Not disputed - BAMBER.

62. Bible on Sheila's arm- Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS.

63. Only execution period available to Bamber, 12am - 3am - Not disputed - BAMBER

64. Housekeeper evidence of items around the sink being moved - Not disputed- PB WS, WILKES'S BOOK

65. Only Sheila receiving a contact shot in a location that produces back splatter- Not disputed, COA.

66. Bloodied plam print on Sheila's nightdress - Not disputed. COA

Thanks for the 66'
"54. No valid Sheila scenario - Not disputed - OS & FORUM. "
What?

[Luminous Wanderer]

What won't work ?

I gave you the link yesterday on one of you're own threads.

The link to what?  If it's so obvious, then I've got Google, so I don't understand why you don't say: "Oh, I gave you the link to the XYZ hearing".  What's the great mystery?

[Luminous Wanderer]

Pamela told her husband Sheila was in a zombie-like state on the telephone.

Is that in a witness statement?  Do we know when she made that observation?

There's no reason to believe there were multiple blood groups on Sheila's nightie or evidence that she struggled with anyone else. Far from it.

Why not in regard to the blood?  Do you have any evidence to back that up?

[Steve_uk]

Is that in a witness statement?  Do we know when she made that observation?

Why not in regard to the blood?  Do you have any evidence to back that up?

It's not the exact wording to the one in the archives but there's another statement Mike has and it may be in that one.

[Steve_uk]

Is that in a witness statement?  Do we know when she made that observation?

Why not in regard to the blood?  Do you have any evidence to back that up?

I don't think there is, but neither is there evidence to suggest she struggled with her parents, nor Jeremy for that matter.

[Adam]

Which is a completely and totally inadequate response to my highly-pertinent and highly-specific questions about the assertion YOU make!

You know what my questions are.  You know that they are relevant.  You know I've seen the blood screening, because I've just told you about it.  You know I've read the majority of the other case documents, because I've quoted from them or referred to them. 

Where we're left is - It's up to you whether you want to carry on evading the issue or actually answer my questions. 

You rarely speak about blood tests?  Funny, a while ago you seemed to be an expert.  I won't post anything further about what happened previously.  You DID lie, quite brazenly. 

I should be pleased, in fact, if you stopped posting on my threads altogether, as I genuinely don't believe you have anything useful to say - but then, you're not unique in that regard.

So you can't quote my post where you say I lied.

If there was one time when a post needed to be quoted. It is now. To prove I lied and you are not lying.

You can't so you lied.

[Luminous Wanderer]

It's not the exact wording to the one in the archives but there's another statement Mike has and it may be in that one.

OK, thanks.  To be fair, I have found two statements from Pamela and she does mention that Sheila sounded not herself on the phone, but that's really as far as it goes.

[Luminous Wanderer]

So you can't quote my post where you say I lied.

If there was one time when a post needed to be quoted. It is now. To prove you are not a liar.

You can't and you lied.

I'm not interested.  I'll just resolve this on a new thread.  I should be grateful not to see you post there, as I can't trust anything you say.  You'll be telling me next that Jeremy Bamber rode around Cheltenham on a pink elephant while high on smack.

[Steve_uk]

OK, thanks.  To be fair, I have found two statements from Pamela and she does mention that Sheila sounded not herself on the phone, but that's really as far as it goes.

It's in Chapter 19 of CAL's book and the exact word "zombie" is used.

[Adam]

Thanks for the 66'
"54. No valid Sheila scenario - Not disputed - OS & FORUM. "
What?

No one has been able to give a credible explanation of how Sheila committed the massacre. Which matches the crime scene evidence.

Feel free to attempt to be the first.