Author Topic: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two: Jeremy's Plan  (Read 10435 times)

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Offline Nigel

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two
« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2018, 05:09:PM »
My God, that is the darkness, that shows the Light.

I am beyond certain there were two rifles used. However I think there may have been three, not sure where that ties in....where the third one is....
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 05:09:PM by Nigel »
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline David1819

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two
« Reply #76 on: April 12, 2018, 08:13:AM »
We're back to being disingenuous again.  I do know the evidence.  I've seen the blood screening.  It's inconclusive about cannabinoids and shows only a moderate level of psychotropics present. 

I repeat my question: do you have any of the supporting evidence I referred to?  You're the one making the assertions about Sheila, in which we're supposed to believe she was a zombie.


To be fair to Adam, He is to some extent honest with his Zombie theory when it comes to his crime scene reconstruction. He openly admits that he believes Jeremy carried Sheila from her bed like "groom carries the bride" to where she was found.

All he needs to do now is explain how Nevill got shot in bed without leaving any blood on the bed.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two
« Reply #77 on: April 12, 2018, 08:30:AM »
To be fair to Adam, He is to some extent honest with his Zombie theory when it comes to his crime scene reconstruction. He openly admits that he believes Jeremy carried Sheila from her bed like "groom carries the bride" to where she was found.

That sounds like Dracula.

Offline Adam

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two
« Reply #78 on: April 12, 2018, 09:25:AM »
To be fair to Adam, He is to some extent honest with his Zombie theory when it comes to his crime scene reconstruction. He openly admits that he believes Jeremy carried Sheila from her bed like "groom carries the bride" to where she was found.

All he needs to do now is explain how Nevill got shot in bed without leaving any blood on the bed.

Thank you David.

It is easy to lift a very light woman a few feet in a few seconds. Men in the gym regulary squat over 220kg of lifeless weight, which is over 15 stone. So lifting an asleep & sedated 7 stone woman a few feet in a 10 second period would be easy.

So certainly an option for Bamber as Sheila would have remained asleep while Bamber was killing everyone else.

The bullet casings show Nevill was shot 4 times in the main bedroom.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 09:25:AM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two
« Reply #79 on: April 12, 2018, 09:26:AM »
I am beyond certain there were two rifles used. However I think there may have been three, not sure where that ties in....where the third one is....

Why would Sheila use two or three rifles. Then put the others away ?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 09:28:AM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two
« Reply #80 on: April 12, 2018, 09:33:AM »
Sheila is having a psychotic episode. She has been difficult to control and has already attacked Neville gouging his arms. She is persuaded to go back to bed but it doesn’t last long and she is up again. She finds one of the the rifles and locks herself in the bathroom. Neville gets up and tries to persuade her to go back to bed but she says she has a gun and will shoot herself if Neville doesn’t get Jeremy. Her plan is that the whole family will die.
Neville calls Jeremy and tells him to come to the house he then tries to make a follow on call to a doctor or maybe the police but before he finishes dialing he hears noises from upstairs. He drops the receiver and rushes up to the bedroom where he sees June has been shot multiple times. She has fallen out of bed but is alive. He crouches beside her. Sheila has come back into the bedroom behind Neville. She is naked apart from a pair of Neville’s socks. She comes up behind him and shoots him four times in the head and jaw. Neville is badly dazed but gets up and staggers out on to the landing and down the stairs. Sheila shoots again hitting Neville in the shoulder.
He collapses at the bottom of the stairs. His watch falling off and being dragged under the carpet as he crawls into the kitchen. He tries to reach the phone but Sheila is back. She shoots him again hitting him in the arm but then the gun is empty. Neville pulls himself to his feet. Crashes into the kitchen table when he is bludgeoned with the rifle. He is knocked unconscious and falls over some chairs. His pajamas fall down and he ends up with his head in the coal scuttle.
She decides to kill the twins but is worried they might wake up. She goes to the gun cupboard and finds the silencer and reloads the rifle. She goes upstairs and realizes that June is still alive. She has managed to get to the door but has collapsed. Sheila fires a shot to the head which kills June. She then goes and shoots the twins.
She imagines hearing Neville taunting her. She reloads the gun and shoots Neville twice more in the head. She then for some deluded reason decides to burn something onto his back. She goes back to hide in the gun cupboard. She is waiting for Jeremy but decides to shoot herself. She can’t manage it and so takes off the silencer and drops it in the box.
She realizes that she is having her period and feels dirty. She goes to the bathroom and showers. After that she puts on a tampon. She goes back upstairs and dons a clean nightie. She decides to read the Bible in preparation for her death. The Bible she knows is in the main bedroom.
She sits on the floor leaning against the bedside cabinet. She reads some passages and then shoots herself in the neck. She waits but doesn’t die. Blood drips onto the Bible and runs down onto the nightdress. She shuffles forward ruffing up the back of her nightdress. Puts the Bible on her chest and shoots herself again. She slumps back and the Bible falls off onto the floor.

This is an unexpected surprise. I've been asking for scenarios since joining.

Some have refused point blank. Others have given scenarios ranging from 'Sheila shot them but I can't explain the phone calls', to David saying Nevill phoned Bamber after Sheila started shooting the twins in the head !

Sheila committing the massacre naked apart from wearing Nevill's blue socks, eh. That's a new one. Anyway I will go through the scenario now.
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Offline lookout

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two: Jeremy's Plan
« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2018, 09:39:AM »
A lightweight Sheila may have been but a different matter when carrying someone in a deep sleep and JB was no weight-lifter.

Offline Adam

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two
« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2018, 10:21:AM »
Sheila is having a psychotic episode. She has been difficult to control and has already attacked Neville gouging his arms. She is persuaded to go back to bed but it doesn’t last long and she is up again. She finds one of the the rifles and locks herself in the bathroom. Neville gets up and tries to persuade her to go back to bed but she says she has a gun and will shoot herself if Neville doesn’t get Jeremy. Her plan is that the whole family will die.
Neville calls Jeremy and tells him to come to the house he then tries to make a follow on call to a doctor or maybe the police but before he finishes dialing he hears noises from upstairs. He drops the receiver and rushes up to the bedroom where he sees June has been shot multiple times. She has fallen out of bed but is alive. He crouches beside her. Sheila has come back into the bedroom behind Neville. She is naked apart from a pair of Neville’s socks. She comes up behind him and shoots him four times in the head and jaw. Neville is badly dazed but gets up and staggers out on to the landing and down the stairs. Sheila shoots again hitting Neville in the shoulder.
He collapses at the bottom of the stairs. His watch falling off and being dragged under the carpet as he crawls into the kitchen. He tries to reach the phone but Sheila is back. She shoots him again hitting him in the arm but then the gun is empty. Neville pulls himself to his feet. Crashes into the kitchen table when he is bludgeoned with the rifle. He is knocked unconscious and falls over some chairs. His pajamas fall down and he ends up with his head in the coal scuttle.
She decides to kill the twins but is worried they might wake up. She goes to the gun cupboard and finds the silencer and reloads the rifle. She goes upstairs and realizes that June is still alive. She has managed to get to the door but has collapsed. Sheila fires a shot to the head which kills June. She then goes and shoots the twins.
She imagines hearing Neville taunting her. She reloads the gun and shoots Neville twice more in the head. She then for some deluded reason decides to burn something onto his back. She goes back to hide in the gun cupboard. She is waiting for Jeremy but decides to shoot herself. She can’t manage it and so takes off the silencer and drops it in the box.
She realizes that she is having her period and feels dirty. She goes to the bathroom and showers. After that she puts on a tampon. She goes back upstairs and dons a clean nightie. She decides to read the Bible in preparation for her death. The Bible she knows is in the main bedroom.
She sits on the floor leaning against the bedside cabinet. She reads some passages and then shoots herself in the neck. She waits but doesn’t die. Blood drips onto the Bible and runs down onto the nightdress. She shuffles forward ruffing up the back of her nightdress. Puts the Bible on her chest and shoots herself again. She slumps back and the Bible falls off onto the floor.

Sheila gouged Nevill's arms ?  There is nothing on the COA document about gouged arms. Anyway, Nevill went back to bed with his gouged arms. I assume Sheila was wearing her nightie at this time as 27 year old women don't walk around naked in front of their fathers.

Sheila locks herself in the bathroom for some reason. And wants the full set dead.  Which includes Bamber who is at home sleeping 'like a log'. Sheila hardly spoke during supper. Bamber must have really upset her when they spoke in the fields earlier in the day. What a pity he can't remember what they spoke about.

Nevill weakly agrees to ring Bamber at 3.10am & doesn't hear or see Sheila leave the bathroom & go upstairs with a rifle. You have agreed Nevill did not ring Chelmsford police at 3.26am as you are saying things had escalated before then.

Sheila starts shooting June who like Bamber was sleeping 'like a log' despite all the noise. 

Despite not hearing/seeing Sheila go upstairs, Nevill hears shots upstairs.

Sheila obviously forgot to bring socks to WHF. Although Nevill has let Sheila wear his socks, she shows no gratitude & starts shooting Nevill. Sheila has now taken off her nightie for some reason & is naked, apart from Nevill's blue socks,  holding a rifle.

The evidence is Sheila's upstairs shots into (according to you), an out of bed and wide awake Nevill were from close range. However he fails totally to physically confront Sheila upstairs.  Instead rushing downstairs.

After getting downstairs Nevill's watch instantly and magically gets damaged & falls off his wrist. He still doesn't fight back but attempts to get to the phone . A bit late to phone anyone perhaps ?

Sheila then horriffically continually hits Nevill so hard the rifle stock breaks, furniture is upturned, the ceiling light smashes and the aga is scratched.

Sheila then puts the silencer on ? A bit late to worry about people waking.

Sheila then 'imagines' a dead Nevill taunting her. So shoots him again. Then burns Nevill's back for 'a deluded' reason.

Sheila then hides in the gun cupboard, naked apart from Nevill's blue socks,  and waits for Jeremy. How was Jeremy going to get inside ?

Sheila decides to have a shower and puts the silencer back in the box. You are saying she used the silencer but not how her blood got inside. Be easier to say it wasn't used at all.

Sheila put on her nightie, which she had previously taken off so she could committ the massacre naked apart from Nevill's blue socks.

Sheila then gets June's bible before giving herself a contact neck shot, although there was no blood splatter in the rifle nozzle.



« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 10:37:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two: Jeremy's Plan
« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2018, 11:09:AM »
This is my Bamber scenario. This is copied from my 2015 thread. So happy to modify. It's straight forward.

Cycle to WHF:

Evidence - Bike available brought to WHF just before the massacre. Easy journey. Unseen.


Get into WHF

Evidence - Bathroom window loose or open. Quiet ground floor entrance. Bamber said he knew how to get in through this window.


Pick up rifle:

Evidence ' Fully loaded rifle available as stated by Bamber.


Enter main bedroom:

Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed first as potential to provide most resistance.


Shoot an in bed June and Neville:

Evidence - 11 shots were fired in the main bedroom opening salvo suggesting rifle was emptied in opening salvo.   June and Neville shot in or near the bed.


Go to reload or chase Neville:

Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen. Neville found in kitchen.


Kitchen fight:

Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there.  Upturned and smashed kitchen items. Smashed watch.  Scratch marks on aga.


Shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:


Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into a knocked out Neville.


Reload. Return upstairs:


Evidence - All other shots upstairs. Bamber knew how to reoad.


Either wake and shoot, shoot an already awake Sheila or shoot an asleep Sheila

Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom. Sheila physically very weak, under sedation & on Haloperidol so easy to control.


Shoot June twice more:


Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Final head shots required.


Reload, shoot the sleeping twins:

Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.


Stage the scene:


Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila. Silencer put in a box. Neville's back burnt to check for signs of life.


Exit out of kitchen window:

Evidence - Twenty sources say it can be banged shut from outside.


Cycle home:


Evidence - Bike found at Bambers cottage.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 11:20:AM by Adam »
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Offline Roch

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2018, 11:23:AM »
'4.10. We note that Sheila has no marks on her nightdress other than the post-injury and post-mortem blood splatter, suggesting that she was not in a struggle.

It's worth bearing in mind the possibility there may have been 'developments in understanding' behind the scenes, in relation to the nighty.  Granted, that doesn't assist with current debate here - which unfortunately is restricted to the available evidence within the public domain.

Offline Adam

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two: Jeremy's Plan
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2018, 11:40:AM »
This is my Bamber scenario. This is copied from my 2015 thread. So happy to modify. It's straight forward.

Cycle to WHF:

Evidence - Bike available brought to WHF just before the massacre. Easy journey. Unseen.


Get into WHF

Evidence - Bathroom window loose or open. Quiet ground floor entrance. Bamber said he knew how to get in through this window.


Pick up rifle:

Evidence ' Fully loaded rifle available as stated by Bamber.


Enter main bedroom:

Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed first as potential to provide most resistance.


Shoot an in bed June and Neville:

Evidence - 11 shots were fired in the main bedroom opening salvo suggesting rifle was emptied in opening salvo.   June and Neville shot in or near the bed.


Go to reload or chase Neville:

Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen. Neville found in kitchen.


Kitchen fight:

Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there.  Upturned and smashed kitchen items. Smashed watch.  Scratch marks on aga.


Shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:


Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into a knocked out Neville.


Reload. Return upstairs:


Evidence - All other shots upstairs. Bamber knew how to reoad.


Either wake and shoot, shoot an already awake Sheila or shoot an asleep Sheila

Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom. Sheila physically very weak, under sedation & on Haloperidol so easy to control.


Shoot June twice more:


Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Final head shots required.


Reload, shoot the sleeping twins:

Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.


Stage the scene:


Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila. Silencer put in a box. Neville's back burnt to check for signs of life.


Exit out of kitchen window:

Evidence - Twenty sources say it can be banged shut from outside.


Cycle home:


Evidence - Bike found at Bambers cottage.

Amending my own post, there has been suggestions the twins were shot first.

This works - Bamber shot the twins once each. Then went straight to the main bedroom and fired 9 bullets. Four into Nevill, 5 into June.

Two more bullets were fired into June & 6 more into the twins later on.

My intial scenario was wrong as Bamber only fired 9 shots in his opening main bedroom salvo. June was killed later with two head shots after she had moved across the floor.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 11:49:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lebaleb

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Re: Who Killed Sheila Caffell? Part Two
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2018, 12:05:PM »
Sheila gouged Nevill's arms ?  There is nothing on the COA document about gouged arms. Anyway, Nevill went back to bed with his gouged arms. I assume Sheila was wearing her nightie at this time as 27 year old women don't walk around naked in front of their fathers.

People having psychotic episodes may well walk around naked

Sheila locks herself in the bathroom for some reason. And wants the full set dead.  Which includes Bamber who is at home sleeping 'like a log'. Sheila hardly spoke during supper. Bamber must have really upset her when they spoke in the fields earlier in the day. What a pity he can't remember what they spoke about.

Catatonic phase before manic episodes

Nevill weakly agrees to ring Bamber at 3.10am & doesn't hear or see Sheila leave the bathroom & go upstairs with a rifle. You have agreed Nevill did not ring Chelmsford police at 3.26am as you are saying things had escalated before then.

Correct

Sheila starts shooting June who like Bamber was sleeping 'like a log' despite all the noise.

What noise?

Despite not hearing/seeing Sheila go upstairs, Nevill hears shots upstairs.

More likely he heard June

Sheila obviously forgot to bring socks to WHF. Although Nevill has let Sheila wear his socks, she shows no gratitude & starts shooting Nevill. Sheila has now taken off her nightie for some reason & is naked, apart from Nevill's blue socks,  holding a rifle.

Correct although I doubt Sheila would care whose socks she was wearing

The evidence is Sheila's upstairs shots into (according to you), an out of bed and wide awake Nevill were from close range. However he fails totally to physically confront Sheila upstairs.  Instead rushing downstairs.

Neville has no chance to defend himself. It all happened very quickly. After four shots to the head he was in no state to put up a fight

After getting downstairs Nevill's watch instantly and magically gets damaged & falls off his wrist. He still doesn't fight back but attempts to get to the phone . A bit late to phone anyone perhaps ?

Not magic just physics

Sheila then horriffically continually hits Nevill so hard the rifle stock breaks, furniture is upturned, the ceiling light smashes and the aga is scratched.

Correct

Sheila then puts the silencer on ? A bit late to worry about people waking.

That may seem logical to a rational person but not to a delusional one[/i]

Sheila then 'imagines' a dead Nevill taunting her. So shoots him again. Then burns Nevill's back for 'a deluded' reason.

Correct

Sheila then hides in the gun cupboard, naked apart from Nevill's blue socks,  and waits for Jeremy. How was Jeremy going to get inside ?

By that time she may have given up on Jeremy or intended to let him in herself, or when she saw the police her plan changed, or she didn’t think about it

Sheila decides to have a shower and puts the silencer back in the box. You are saying she used the silencer but not how her blood got inside. Be easier to say it wasn't used at all.

It was never proven to be Sheila’s blood. It was a mixture.

Sheila put on her nightie, which she had previously taken off so she could committ the massacre naked apart from Nevill's blue socks.

We don’t know whether she had the nightie on earlier or not

Sheila then gets June's bible before giving herself a contact neck shot, although there was no blood splatter in the rifle nozzle.