Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Roch on January 01, 2017, 08:18:PM
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01 * 6 Aug 18:00-18:39 Approx - Jeremy finishes work at White
House Farm where there is a family meal ongoing. A discussion is taking place
between June, Nevill and Sheila about what help Sheila needs.
The use of fostering again is a central theme.
02 * 21:30 - Jeremy leaves WHF and returns to his nearby
Goldhanger home, about three miles away.
03 * 21:30 - Back at WHF Barbara Wilson, Farm Secretary,
telephones and speaks to Nevill Bamber; claiming he was "short"
with her. She was left with the impression her call had interrupted
an argument.
04 * 21:50-22:00 - Jeremy makes a telephone call to Julie at her home.
Unbeknown to Jeremy, Julie has been smoking marijuana and she
is drowsy.
05 * 22:00 - Pamela Boutflour, June’s sister, telephones White House
Farm and speaks to both June and Sheila. Pam stated that Sheila
just gave “yes and no” replies to her questions and abruptly handed
the phone back to June. June explained to Pam that she was “very
worried about Sheila and that she would like me to see her and
form an opinion about her health.” From the discussion with June,
Pam reached the conclusion that Sheila was “acting oddly”
06 * 23:00 Approx - Having watched television, Jeremy goes to bed.
07 * 7 Aug 03:15 Approx - Nevill telephones his son, Jeremy, stating
his sister Sheila had "gone crazy" and “had the gun." He also said
“Please come over.” The phone then went dead. It had either been
unplugged or left off the hook.
08 * 03:20 Approx - Jeremy then makes several attempts to call
Nevill back using 'redial' and got the engaged tone. Unbeknown to
Jeremy this was because Nevill had realised that he needed police
assistance with Sheila.
09 * 03:20 - Nevill telephones police stating that his daughter, Sheila,
had "got hold” of one of his guns. The call is noted and titled
"daughter gone berserk." Nevill referred to Sheila's age as 26 years.
10 * 03:26 - PC West telephones Malcolm Bonnett “On the internal
police line” to relay the call he has just received from Nevill
Bamber.
11 * 03:30 Approx - PC Saxby receives a radio message, stating he
should attend at White House Farm.
12 * 03:35 - Police vehicle CA7 is dispatched to WHF.
13 * 03:36 - PC West told DCI Dickinson in November 1986, that he
called Malcolm Bonnett (discussing a call from Jeremy to Police
about the WHF incident) at this time. However, in his 16th
September statement he claims to have not actually received
Jeremy Bamber’s call until 3:36. PC West also claimed in his 9th
of September statement that Jeremy called him at 3:26. Jeremy's
call to the police refers to Sheila's age at 27 - which was accurate.
14 * 03:36 - PC Norcup and PC Cracknell are dispatched in police
vehicle CA5.
16 * 03:36 - Police vehicle CA05 is dispatched to WHF, according
to PC West’s Log.
17 * 03:38 - Police suggest to Jeremy he should meet them at WHF
and, before doing so, he telephones Julie. The time of this call is
strongly contested by six different people. The time of the call
gets earlier in each witness statement made by prosecution
witnesses, some claimed as early as 2:59. Under cross-examination
most of the witnesses said the call could well have been closer to
3:30. The variance moots the point and suggests the possibility that
other house members might have smoked marijuana with Julie that
evening.
18 * 03:42 - Jeremy leaves his cottage and makes his way to White
House Farm.
19 * 03:48 - Vehicle CA07 arrives at the end of Pages Lane at the
junction with Tollesbury Road. Jeremy then arrives at the same
location and is, from this time onward, in the company of police.
20 * 03:49 - Officers Bews and Myall along with Jeremy exit their
cars at the junction of Tollesbury Road and have a short discussion,
after which a decision is made by police to drive further down the
lane and park by the farm cottages.
21 * 03:50 - PC Batchelor is attributed as writing a log at the scene
from 03:50 onwards but he didn’t arrive at the scene until 04:25am.
22 * 03:55 - Officers Bews, Myall and Jeremy begin a 'perimeter
check' of the farmhouse, during which PC Myall indicates he can
see "movement" in an upstairs window. A Tactical Firearms Unit
(TFU) is contacted. The Major Incident Report at the scene goes
as far as to list what was seen as an 'Unidentified male.' Bews
makes a situation report to HQ over the radio.
23 * 04:00 - PC Saxby told the Dickinson Enquiry that he started
keeping a log at this time. In addition, he also states that he started
another, separate log which detailed who arrived and who left
White House Farm. This log has never been disclosed.
24 * 04:09 - Police report at this time that there are "no signs of life"
within the house - keep in mind that at this time that police noted:
"...all lights on in premises." This report was made as a result of PS
Bews making a second recce of the house. He told the Dickinson
Enquiry that he may have gone back a third time.
25 * 04:22 - PC Norcup and PC Cracknell arrive at the Farm in car
CA5.
26 * 04:23 - PC Batchelor and PC Lay arrive at the Farm in car CA6.
27 * 04:58 - The Firearms Unit (TFU) arrives at WHF along with a
dog unit; police vehicles QK26, QZO5, and QK50. The vehicles
contained: QK26 – PC Adams and 5 TFU Officers QK50 –
PC Mackintosh - QK05 – Dog Unit-PC Mercer.
28 * 05:25 - The Firearms team are recorded as being "in conversation
with a person from inside the farm." Jeremy is asked at this time
what Sheila would like to talk about as police arranged to engage
her in conversation.
29 * 05:29 - Police logs note that a "challenge to persons inside the
house [was] met with no response."
30 05:42 - A relief radio operator, PC Nicholas Milbank, takes over
from Malcolm Bonnett. PC Milbank didn’t make a statement in
1985 and it wasn’t until he was interviewed on 18.08.2002. that his
identity was revealed to the Defence. He has never disclosed what
he heard from inside White House Farm over the open telephone
line. The open line was also being recorded yet neither this recording
nor PC Milbank’s testimony is made known to the Jury and
has never been disclosed to the Defence
31 * 05:45 - PC West records that GPO (Post Office) are asked to
check the phone line at White House Farm. By 1985 this would
have actually been tasked to British Telecom.
32 * 05:47 - PC West is informed that the "phone at the scene [is]
engaged." However more than two hours prior at 03.42, West had
been told: "phone had been left off the hook."
33 * 05:50 - PC Myall starts a log but it has been disclosed and
inaccurately attributed to PC Saxby. Myall told Dickinson that he
drove car CA7 into the farmyard and began Log 12.
34 * 06:00 - Paramedics called. Ambulance 051 and 2 crew are
dispatched.
35 * 06:09 - Emergency service operators, as well as GPO/BT
operators now monitor the telephone line to White House Farm.
Jean Rowe a BT operator continues to monitor the phone
intermittently. This was being recorded onto tape but the tapes
have never been disclosed.
36 * 06:19 - PC Chaplin and PC Dixon arrive at White House Farm
in car CG32.
37 * 06:20 - Further paramedics called to the scene. Ambulance 070
and 2 crew are dispatched.
38 * 06:42 - PC Hall and PC Manners arrive at the scene in van QK23.
Also Inspector Montgomery and five TFU officers.
39 * 06:44 - Chief Inspector Clark arrives in car CG/10.
40 * 06:45 - APS Manners states that PC Collins looked into the
kitchen through the window before they broke into the house and
“reported seeing what he thought was the body of a female just
inside the kitchen door,” but apparently Nevill Bamber was found
by the Aga cooker.
41 * 07:00 - Curtains in Master Bedroom recorded as Closed. Lights
are recorded as being off in the master bedroom.
42 * 07:00 approx. - Ch. /Insp. Gibbons and PC Panting arrive at the
scene.
43 * 07:02 - A/PS Moule and five more TFU Officers arrive at the
scene in transit vehicle QK24. Thirty-two Police Officers and four
paramedics are already at the scene.
44 * 07:10 Approx - PC Brown sees a rifle in the window of the 'box'
room, adjacent to the master bedroom between 7:00am and
9:00am.
45 * 07:15 - Curtains in the Master Bedroom now recorded as open,
with the light turned on.
46 * 07:15 - CSI Harris and PC Reed arrive at the Farm in car CA02.
47 * 07:20 - Further Paramedics called to the scene (approximate).
48 * 07:30 - Paramedics called to relieve one of the earlier crews. In
all 9 arrive at the scene.
49 * 07:30 - WPC Jeapes sees a rifle in the window of the 'box' room,
adjacent to the master bedroom between 7:30am and 9:00am. She
is located independently from PC Brown. There are no photographs
taken of this room from inside or outside the house.
50 * 07:34 - Police, using “stealth” tactics, enter the farmhouse by
smashing down a door with a sledgehammer. PC Rozga states: "I
looked just around the door and saw [an] overturned chair [and]
against the wall was the body of a male." Two different versions
of his statement exist to omit the re-positioning of Nevill Bamber’s
body.
51 * 07:34 - Having entered the house via the kitchen, police radio
through the discovery of one dead male and one dead female.
These would have been the bodies of Sheila and Nevill. The raid
team wore open microphones and were recorded. The tapes or
transcripts have never been disclosed.
52 * 07:36 - Reports made of “movement and voices” being heard by
police over the open telephone line as police broke in.
53 * 07:37 - One of the first raid officers into the house, PC Hall says,
“I immediately heard a noise upstairs and began to challenge up the
stairs I was covering, I was calling to Sheila Bamber to make her
whereabouts known to me.” At the 2002 Appeal the same officer
stated that the raid team operated using stealth tactics in silence
using hand signals. PC Rozga added: "I then heard someone from
the kitchen area warning another person not to tread in blood."
54 * 07:37 - After other officers entered the house the scene would
appear to have been altered because Nevill was reported to have
been near the Aga cooker seated precariously on the back of an
overturned chair.
55 * 07.38 - Another Essex Police communication, from Inspector
Norman, notes the discovery of "one dead male and one dead
female... on entry to premises." The two bodies could only have
been those of Nevill and Sheila given it is undisputed that June
and the twins were found upstairs.
56 * 07:47 - The police give an order for the recording of the open
telephone line at White House Farm - being monitored by
emergency services - to be halted.
57 * 07:48 - Police request a surgeon to attend the scene to examine
two bodies, suggesting again that two bodies (Sheila and Nevill)
were found downstairs.
58 * 07:55 - Police finally ‘officially’ search the upstairs of WHF.
The ambulance Commander, Mr Nottage arrived at the scene.
59 * 08:00 - After 8:00am, two firearms officers say in statements
ammunition and bandoliers were on the staircase leading from the
kitchen to the box room. Neither this room, the staircase, the
ammunition or bandoliers are photographed.
60 * 08:10 - After a “thorough” search of the house, Police record
the discovery of “three further bodies” These would have been the
bodies of June, Nicholas and Daniel. The finding of "three further
bodies" supports the argument that two bodies (Nevill and Sheila)
were found downstairs, as it is undisputed that five persons in total
had died.
61 * 08:10 approx. - PC Manners records that he spent considerable
time with the body of June Bamber, who was found with her feet
to the door. Curiously, the crime scene photos picture her with her
head against the door.
62 * 08:25 - Dr Craig arrives.
63 * 08:40 - PC Chaplin starts keeping two logs. One of these is
recording who went in and out of the back door at WHF. This is
separate to the log noted at 04:00am in relation to Saxby.
PC Shoulders keeps a log at the front door of the house recording
who enters and leaves. Neither log has been disclosed.
64 * 08:45 - Dr Craig, CI Gibbons and CSI Harris all state Sheila has
one gunshot wound.
65 * 08:45 - PC Wright, Coroner's officer arrives.
66 * 08:51 - DI Cook and DC Bird arrive in car QP03.
67 * 09:00 - Van QK22 arrives with six further TFU officers plus a
sergeant to “keep away” members of the press. There were already
seventy Police Officers at the scene. It is odd that they needed
extra Firearms Officers to attend after the house had been searched.
68 * 09:14 - DCI Jones and DC Clarke arrive in CID car.
69 * 09:16 - DI Miller and DS Jones arrive in CID car.
70 * 09:16 - 'Mystery' SOC Officer DC Henderson arrives at the scene
with DS Davidson. This was later changed to DC Hammersley -
DC Henderson never makes a statement about his attendance at the
scene.
71 * 9:30 - DI Miller describes Sheila as having been found with the
rifle “by her right side,” and not with the rifle across her body, as
it is seen in crime scene photographs taken after 10:00am
72 * 09:56 - At this time PC Chaplin ceases keeping his record,
stating: “I was instructed by someone (don’t know who) to stop
recording who was entering the house, as officers were by then
using two entrances and it was impossible for me to record
correctly who was coming and going.” The lists which kept up to
date times of those who entered the house have not been disclosed.
PC Bird requests the gun resting on Sheila to be made safe.
73 * 10:00 - Photographing the scene commences in the kitchen. No
explanation has ever been given as to why SOC officers were made
to wait 44 minutes from the time of their arrival at 09:16 before
being allowed into the house.
74 * 10:20 - A photograph shows Sheila and June, with the bedside
clock confirming the time.
75 * 10:20 - Seven crime scene photographs show Sheila’s body
with her hand and the gun in different positions. In one, the gun
is on Sheila’s body but another, taken just minutes later, (as the
photographer moved down the stairs) shows the gun resting in
the window when it should have still been on Sheila’s body until
11:10 according to DI Cook.
76 * 10:40 - Two more teams of Firearms officers arrive in two
vehicles at the scene for training. DCI Dickinson notes in his 1986
investigation that officers were trained at the scene.
77 * 10:50 - Photographing the scene finishes and the bodies are
placed into bags. They await removal from the scene for the post
mortem’s to be carried out.
78 * 11:10 - 'Officially', the rifle was moved from Sheila for the first
time and made safe. PC Bird, the photographer, appears to forget
to take photographs of five of the rooms in the house including
those with firearms present inside.
79 * 14:15 -PC Chaplin’s second log finishes.
80 * 15:50 - The log added to by the 'relief' radio operator from 05:42
comes to an end. PC Shoulders takes over the log at the scene but
the radio operator up until 15:50, PC Milbank never makes a
statement for Jeremy's trial - it was simply assumed that Malcolm
Bonnett monitored the radio throughout the incident. He did not
inform the Jury that he went off duty at 05:40 that morning.
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Mike, point 75 is what I tried to bring to your attention recently. It is in direct contradiction to your theory regarding the rifle having been removed from the window and placed atop Sheila. The OS clearly have the sequence reversed (and this is stated on their site). I understand this still leaves a question regarding what happened to the rifle in the box room.
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Mike, point 75 is what I tried to bring to your attention recently. It is in direct contradiction to your theory regarding the rifle having been removed from the window and placed atop Sheila. The OS clearly have the sequence reversed (and this is stated on their site). I understand this still leaves a question regarding what happened to the rifle in the box room.
That alleged rifle could easily be the Anslutz 525. Sheila places it there. Then later on picks it up again in order to take her own life.
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That alleged rifle could easily be the Anslutz 525. Sheila places it there. Then later on picks it up again in order to take her own life.
But in point 53 one assumes that PC Hall hears Sheila, yet there is no shot ever heard by Police when she does take her own life.
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But in point 53 one assumes that PC Hall hears Sheila, yet there is no shot ever heard by Police when she does take her own life.
There was once a news report clip posted up from the scene, where the reporter states something like 'the final shot that was heard.. was the suicide shot'. It was an interesting choice of wording. You imagine in these situations that reporters at the scene take their cue from police?
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There was once a news report clip posted up from the scene, where the reporter states something like 'the final shot that was heard.. was the suicide shot'. It was an interesting choice of wording. You imagine in these situations that reporters at the scene take their cue from police?
You've done a good job with this timeline Roch. It was a long time coming. Those clips are difficult to access unless you register an account and even then it's got to be affiliated to some educational purpose.
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But in point 53 one assumes that PC Hall hears Sheila, yet there is no shot ever heard by Police when she does take her own life.
And what happens when one reads PC Halls witness statement page no4? ::)
We also know from DS Bernard's report that Rozga was not in the area described in this witness statement ;D
How will you get out of this one I wonder?
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You've done a good job with this timeline Roch. It was a long time coming. Those clips are difficult to access unless you register an account and even then it's got to be affiliated to some educational purpose.
No, you just copy them from here https://casebookclassiccrime.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/ccc_issue6.pdf
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So, Nevill's body was moved too? ::)
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You've done a good job with this timeline Roch. It was a long time coming. Those clips are difficult to access unless you register an account and even then it's got to be affiliated to some educational purpose.
Caroline posted up a link to an article on another thread and I then just copy & pasted the timeline (but tried to make it better for viewing on here).
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And what happens when one reads PC Halls witness statement page no4? ::)
We also know from DS Bernard's report that Rozga was not in the area described in this witness statement ;D
How will you get out of this one I wonder?
A shot is a shot. It is not a noise.
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And what happens when one reads PC Halls witness statement page no4? ::)
We also know from DS Bernard's report that Rozga was not in the area described in this witness statement ;D
How will you get out of this one I wonder?
It was most probably the frightened dog.
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Caroline posted up a link to an article on another thread and I then just copy & pasted the timeline (but tried to make it better for viewing on here).
Great job Roch but it would have helped if the CT had referenced where they have taken the information from.
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Great job Roch but it would have helped if the CT had referenced where they have taken the information from.
Fantasy land.
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For example:
01 * 6 Aug 18:00-18:39 Approx - Jeremy finishes work at White
House Farm where there is a family meal ongoing. A discussion is taking place
between June, Nevill and Sheila about what help Sheila needs.
The use of fostering again is a central theme.
How do we know what time Jeremy finished work? Where did this information come from? His witness statement?
Acciording to Jeremy the use of fostering again is a central theme
02 * 21:30 - Jeremy leaves WHF and returns to his nearby
Goldhanger home, about three miles away.
According to Jeremy's witness statement
It might be worthwhile putting the prosecution timeline next to the CT timeline
03 * 21:30 - Back at WHF Barbara Wilson, Farm Secretary,
telephones and speaks to Nevill Bamber; claiming he was "short"
with her. She was left with the impression her call had interrupted
an argument.
As per witness statement
04 * 21:50-22:00 - Jeremy makes a telephone call to Julie at her home.
Unbeknown to Jeremy, Julie has been smoking marijuana and she
is drowsy.
What is the relevance of Julie having smoked marijuana? The CT are showing bias. How do they know Jeremy wasn't stoned out of his nut?
05 * 22:00 - Pamela Boutflour, June’s sister, telephones White House
Farm and speaks to both June and Sheila. Pam stated that Sheila
just gave “yes and no” replies to her questions and abruptly handed
the phone back to June. June explained to Pam that she was “very
worried about Sheila and that she would like me to see her and
form an opinion about her health.” From the discussion with June,
Pam reached the conclusion that Sheila was “acting oddly”
06 * 23:00 Approx - Having watched television, Jeremy goes to bed.
According to his police interview etc etc
07 * 7 Aug 03:15 Approx - Nevill telephones his son, Jeremy, stating
his sister Sheila had "gone crazy" and “had the gun." He also said
“Please come over.” The phone then went dead. It had either been
unplugged or left off the hook.
Jeremy says that Nevill telephones him. There is nothing to support this claim
It's a ruddy mess Caroline!
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Fantasy land.
Between us we could put together quite an accurate timeline from this.
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A shot is a shot. It is not a noise.
I think a police officer would know the difference. The most likely solution is that the dog was moving around and Hall was spooked.
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Between us we could put together quite an accurate timeline from this.
Just take out the rubbish that the CT have added.
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A lot of the times are not important.
I thought Bamber's first call to Julie was longer than they state.
However point 7 is wrong. Bamber's own WS states Nevill's call was at 3.10am. Nevill saying 11 words and then Bamber phoning him back and just getting the dialling tone wouldn't take 10 minutes.
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Point 22 seems to be an amalgamation of events. I'd like to have seen some more clarity there.
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Point 22 seems to be an amalgamation of events. I'd like to have seen some more clarity there.
Quite a lot has been amalgamated ;D
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None of the times are really in dispute. Of the calls that everyone knows took place.
Bamber intially said he called Julie first. No one said his call to Julie was after 3.30am.
All guliters and some supporters say Nevill did not call the 5th furthest away police station.
The police say Bamber called them at 3.26am. Bamber will always be tenacious and ambitious with the one digit difference from the logs. Claiming Nevill called the police.
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Quite a few mistakes in just the first part!
01 * 6 Aug 18:00-18:39 Approx - Jeremy finishes work at White
House Farm where there is a family meal ongoing. A discussion is taking place
between June, Nevill and Sheila about what help Sheila needs.
The use of fostering again is a central theme.
The above is incorrect and does not match his first statement (the one is covets so much). According to his statement, he went to back to the farm house between 20:00 and 21:00. He then went back to the field (after the rabbit incident) somewhere between 21:00 and 21:30. He then states that he returned to the house around 21:45 (first statement)
02 * 21:30 - Jeremy leaves WHF and returns to his nearby
Goldhanger home, about three miles away.
The above is incorrect as according to him, he left WHF around 21:45
03 * 21:30 - Back at WHF Barbara Wilson, Farm Secretary,
telephones and speaks to Nevill Bamber; claiming he was "short"
with her. She was left with the impression her call had interrupted
an argument.
04 * 21:50-22:00 - Jeremy makes a telephone call to Julie at her home.
Unbeknown to Jeremy, Julie has been smoking marijuana and she
is drowsy.
This had to be 22:00 or later
05 * 22:00 - Pamela Boutflour, June’s sister, telephones White House
Farm and speaks to both June and Sheila. Pam stated that Sheila
just gave “yes and no” replies to her questions and abruptly handed
the phone back to June. June explained to Pam that she was “very
worried about Sheila and that she would like me to see her and
form an opinion about her health.” From the discussion with June,
Pam reached the conclusion that Sheila was “acting oddly”
06 * 23:00 Approx - Having watched television, Jeremy goes to bed.
07 * 7 Aug 03:15 Approx - Nevill telephones his son, Jeremy, stating
his sister Sheila had "gone crazy" and “had the gun." He also said
“Please come over.” The phone then went dead. It had either been
unplugged or left off the hook.
Jeremy's time is 03:10 not 03:15
08 * 03:20 Approx - Jeremy then makes several attempts to call
Nevill back using 'redial' and got the engaged tone. Unbeknown to
Jeremy this was because Nevill had realised that he needed police
assistance with Sheila.
He would have to have called Nevill back before 03:20 if he Nevill called at 03:10
09 * 03:20 - Nevill telephones police stating that his daughter, Sheila,
had "got hold” of one of his guns. The call is noted and titled
"daughter gone berserk." Nevill referred to Sheila's age as 26 years.
Who took Nevill's call? West? This means West is a liar from the off - hardly likely
10 * 03:26 - PC West telephones Malcolm Bonnett “On the internal
police line” to relay the call he has just received from Nevill
Bamber.
He did indeed call Bonnett, but not to relay Nevill's call, he relayed Jeremy's call. Jeremy was unsure about both Sheila's age and her married name. Both logs mention that her name is 'Bamber' and there is a discrepancy over her age - these points were things that Jeremy didn't know so it's not surprising that there is confusion and it's hardly likely that Nevill wouldn't know her married name either. One more point, West log coantins Nevill's age, the log Bonnett wrote does not because Bonnett asked Jeremy this question after f= he finished talking to Bonnett.
11 * 03:30 Approx - PC Saxby receives a radio message, stating he
should attend at White House Farm.
12 * 03:35 - Police vehicle CA7 is dispatched to WHF.
13 * 03:36 - PC West told DCI Dickinson in November 1986, that he
called Malcolm Bonnett (discussing a call from Jeremy to Police
about the WHF incident) at this time. However, in his 16th
September statement he claims to have not actually received
Jeremy Bamber’s call until 3:36. PC West also claimed in his 9th
of September statement that Jeremy called him at 3:26. Jeremy's
call to the police refers to Sheila's age at 27 - which was accurate.
West got the times wrong and again, it was Jeremy who couldn't remember Sheila's age (26 or 27).
14 * 03:36 - PC Norcup and PC Cracknell are dispatched in police
vehicle CA5.
16 * 03:36 - Police vehicle CA05 is dispatched to WHF, according
to PC West’s Log.
17 * 03:38 - Police suggest to Jeremy he should meet them at WHF
and, before doing so, he telephones Julie. The time of this call is
strongly contested by six different people. The time of the call
gets earlier in each witness statement made by prosecution
witnesses, some claimed as early as 2:59. Under cross-examination
most of the witnesses said the call could well have been closer to
3:30. The variance moots the point and suggests the possibility that
other house members might have smoked marijuana with Julie that
evening.
Jeremy said he called Julie at 03:25 so the above it picked out of the air and it was West who told him to meet the police so it was before 03:38.
18 * 03:42 - Jeremy leaves his cottage and makes his way to White
House Farm.
19 * 03:48 - Vehicle CA07 arrives at the end of Pages Lane at the
junction with Tollesbury Road. Jeremy then arrives at the same
location and is, from this time onward, in the company of police.
20 * 03:49 - Officers Bews and Myall along with Jeremy exit their
cars at the junction of Tollesbury Road and have a short discussion,
after which a decision is made by police to drive further down the
lane and park by the farm cottages.
21 * 03:50 - PC Batchelor is attributed as writing a log at the scene
from 03:50 onwards but he didn’t arrive at the scene until 04:25am.
22 * 03:55 - Officers Bews, Myall and Jeremy begin a 'perimeter
check' of the farmhouse, during which PC Myall indicates he can
see "movement" in an upstairs window. A Tactical Firearms Unit
(TFU) is contacted. The Major Incident Report at the scene goes
as far as to list what was seen as an 'Unidentified male.' Bews
makes a situation report to HQ over the radio.
23 * 04:00 - PC Saxby told the Dickinson Enquiry that he started
keeping a log at this time. In addition, he also states that he started
another, separate log which detailed who arrived and who left
White House Farm. This log has never been disclosed.
Several people kept logs which is why the whole thing got confusing
24 * 04:09 - Police report at this time that there are "no signs of life"
within the house - keep in mind that at this time that police noted:
"...all lights on in premises." This report was made as a result of PS
Bews making a second recce of the house. He told the Dickinson
Enquiry that he may have gone back a third time.
25 * 04:22 - PC Norcup and PC Cracknell arrive at the Farm in car
CA5.
26 * 04:23 - PC Batchelor and PC Lay arrive at the Farm in car CA6.
27 * 04:58 - The Firearms Unit (TFU) arrives at WHF along with a
dog unit; police vehicles QK26, QZO5, and QK50. The vehicles
contained: QK26 – PC Adams and 5 TFU Officers QK50 –
PC Mackintosh - QK05 – Dog Unit-PC Mercer.
28 * 05:25 - The Firearms team are recorded as being "in conversation
with a person from inside the farm." Jeremy is asked at this time
what Sheila would like to talk about as police arranged to engage
her in conversation.
They clearly attempted to make contact and the next sentence shows that there was no two way conversation at all 'met with no response'
29 * 05:29 - Police logs note that a "challenge to persons inside the
house [was] met with no response."
30 05:42 - A relief radio operator, PC Nicholas Milbank, takes over
from Malcolm Bonnett. PC Milbank didn’t make a statement in
1985 and it wasn’t until he was interviewed on 18.08.2002. that his
identity was revealed to the Defence. He has never disclosed what
he heard from inside White House Farm over the open telephone
line. The open line was also being recorded yet neither this recording
nor PC Milbank’s testimony is made known to the Jury and
has never been disclosed to the Defence
Because he didn't hear anything
31 * 05:45 - PC West records that GPO (Post Office) are asked to
check the phone line at White House Farm. By 1985 this would
have actually been tasked to British Telecom.
GPO/BT heard nothing either
32 * 05:47 - PC West is informed that the "phone at the scene [is]
engaged." However more than two hours prior at 03.42, West had
been told: "phone had been left off the hook."
33 * 05:50 - PC Myall starts a log but it has been disclosed and
inaccurately attributed to PC Saxby. Myall told Dickinson that he
drove car CA7 into the farmyard and began Log 12.
34 * 06:00 - Paramedics called. Ambulance 051 and 2 crew are
dispatched.
35 * 06:09 - Emergency service operators, as well as GPO/BT
operators now monitor the telephone line to White House Farm.
Jean Rowe a BT operator continues to monitor the phone
intermittently. This was being recorded onto tape but the tapes
have never been disclosed.
Had she hear anything of worth, she's have said so or is this someone else who helped frame an innocent man? For what purpose?
36 * 06:19 - PC Chaplin and PC Dixon arrive at White House Farm
in car CG32.
37 * 06:20 - Further paramedics called to the scene. Ambulance 070
and 2 crew are dispatched.
38 * 06:42 - PC Hall and PC Manners arrive at the scene in van QK23.
Also Inspector Montgomery and five TFU officers.
39 * 06:44 - Chief Inspector Clark arrives in car CG/10.
40 * 06:45 - APS Manners states that PC Collins looked into the
kitchen through the window before they broke into the house and
“reported seeing what he thought was the body of a female just
inside the kitchen door,” but apparently Nevill Bamber was found
by the Aga cooker.
41 * 07:00 - Curtains in Master Bedroom recorded as Closed. Lights
are recorded as being off in the master bedroom.
42 * 07:00 approx. - Ch. /Insp. Gibbons and PC Panting arrive at the
scene.
43 * 07:02 - A/PS Moule and five more TFU Officers arrive at the
scene in transit vehicle QK24. Thirty-two Police Officers and four
paramedics are already at the scene.
44 * 07:10 Approx - PC Brown sees a rifle in the window of the 'box'
room, adjacent to the master bedroom between 7:00am and
9:00am.
Have we got his statement?
45 * 07:15 - Curtains in the Master Bedroom now recorded as open,
with the light turned on.
46 * 07:15 - CSI Harris and PC Reed arrive at the Farm in car CA02.
47 * 07:20 - Further Paramedics called to the scene (approximate).
48 * 07:30 - Paramedics called to relieve one of the earlier crews. In
all 9 arrive at the scene.
49 * 07:30 - WPC Jeapes sees a rifle in the window of the 'box' room,
adjacent to the master bedroom between 7:30am and 9:00am. She
is located independently from PC Brown. There are no photographs
taken of this room from inside or outside the house.
No she doesn't - she saw something that 'appeared' to be a rifle
-
Quite a lot has been amalgamated ;D
Tbf,
I think they will have been governed somewhat by the type and length of the article / site. I had in mind the FSU having been stood down from other duties - which appears to occur prior to any report from the scene.
-
Bamber's Witness Statement does not mention anywhere that the police had told him Nevill had called them. Surprised they never told him this.
-
The timeline does not say what Bamber was doing between getting Nevill's call and phoning the police. Which was a 26 minute period.
He certainly was not phoning Julie. Or was he ?
-
Thought this may be helpful
Below has been taken from Jeremy Bambers police interviews - as this stage he has yet to be charged with the murders...
Police: In view of this what you have told us about your father phoning you in the early hours of the 7th August saying words to the effect "Sheila has gone crazy she has got a gun" cannot be true can it?
Bamber: He did phone me on that morning saying words to that effect.
Police: If she was murdered, which she was how could your father mention Sheila?
Bamber: As in my first statement and on talking to the police on the night I was unsure whether he said, Sheila or she has."
Police: You have told and put in writing to us that you said Sheila's gone crazy you told police officers who came to the scene with you it was Sheila and you have repeated to us and to your girlfriend, it was Sheila that had gone crazy are you now changing Sheila to she has for the first time?
Bamber: No, I'm just saying (I've got to get my words right) - long pause. I'm just trying to remember the question.
Police: I will repeat the question
Bamber: It is easy to make conclusions as to what was going on and at the time and until now I have been told Sheila did it.
Police: My question was have you changed Sheila to she has?
Bamber: No, but I did at the time to the police on the phone say Sheila's gone crazy she's got a gun or she's got a gun she's gone crazy and I'm sure the police officer will back that up, but after being told that my sister had killed everybody it was a logical conclusion to say in my statement Sheila instead of she has.
Police:You see Mr Bamber you told the police officer on the phone it was Sheila, you mentioned it was your sister, the fact that she was suffering from mental illness so we are all told the phone call could not have been from Sheila because she has been murdered, you have now changed today from Sheila to she has. Why suddenly change from Sheila to she has?
Bamber: This is not a sudden change all I am saying is what my father said to me on the phone call which I expressed to the policeman that morning, either Sheila had gone crazy or shes got a gun or gone crazy which is my fathers words, not mine, I at the time concluded with no evidence that it must have been my sister who had a long history of mental illness.
Police: I put it to you that the reason you have changed your story is because today I have told you that Sheila was murdered and in no way could your father have said "It was Sheila." Is that the reason?
Bamber: No but at the time, as I have expressed twice, that I was unsure of the message but when I did my statement I concluded as I have said, that Sheila was the name used and not she has. They sound similarish when said fast and in a panicked voice.
Police:Are you now saying that a women killed your family as you have changed Sheila to she has?
Bamber: No, I am not saying who killed my family, if it is proved that my sister did not, and I am not changing my original words.
Police: But you have told that night on the phone verbally and the next day in writing that your Dad said Sheila, what is your position?
Bamber: On the morning when I rang the police as I have said three times before I expressed to versions of what he said and when I made my statement, it did not seem important and I naturally made the conclusion that he used the word Sheila.
Police: When you received that call from your father what was your immediate thought?
Bamber: Don't remember probably many things whizzed through my head
Police:You are an intelligent man and surely the first thing you thought about doing was to phone the police, dont you agree?
Bamber: Its a matter of opinion
Police: You say it's a matter of opinion there was your father saying Sheila or as you now say she has gone crazy with a gun The most logical thing to do was to call the police, because he appeared o be in danger.
Bamber: True, the most logical thing to do was ring the police but whether he was in danger, I had no idea. I had no evidence, or no idea at the time.
Police: But you must have thought it because you did ring the police. Do you agree?
Bamber: I did phone the police but for many different reasons.
Police: Such as?
Bamber: Long pause. No comment. Silly question.
Recap - When being interviewed about the telephone call he made to Julie on the morning of the murders...
Police: Did you say a police car would come and pick you up?
Bamber: I could have done
Police: Wasn't that the arrangement made with the policeman at the scene?
Bamber: I had asked one of the police if that was possible but no one could give a firm commitment
Police: It was discussed
Bamber: I seem to remember we had not entered the house so no commitment was necessary. Again asserting his power/control
Police: Why say; We had not entered the house so no commitment was necessary?
Bamber: Because it was not known if my parents were alright
Jeremy Bamber even attempted to blame the dog for shooting Sheila the second time.
Bamber: Automatic gun, nerves, anything could have triggered the gun again. The dog. I think your right but you sound so 100 per cent. He's playing with the police. He knows he's thought of every eventuality.. Well almost..
Police: What do you mean 100 per cent.
Bamber: You say it's impossible
Police: You are not saying the dog pulled the trigger for the second one are you?
Bamber: I'm not saying anything, but nothings impossible. He's reinforcing/asserting his power/control..
Police: You said anything could have triggered the second shot off and you mentioned the dog are you saying that after Sheila had been shot once the dog came along and pulled the trigger for the second one?
Bamber: No, it was only an idea, the dog was in the house He's played that night over and over in his head. He knows it like the back of his hand.
Police: I suggest you knew where the dog was that night , that is why you mentioned the dog. It was found in the room that morning by the bodies. Did you know that?
Bamber: You told me that.
-
Thought this may be helpful
Below has been taken from Jeremy Bambers police interviews - as this stage he has yet to be charged with the murders...
Police: In view of this what you have told us about your father phoning you in the early hours of the 7th August saying words to the effect "Sheila has gone crazy she has got a gun" cannot be true can it?
Bamber: He did phone me on that morning saying words to that effect.
Police: If she was murdered, which she was how could your father mention Sheila?
Bamber: As in my first statement and on talking to the police on the night I was unsure whether he said, Sheila or she has."
Police: You have told and put in writing to us that you said Sheila's gone crazy you told police officers who came to the scene with you it was Sheila and you have repeated to us and to your girlfriend, it was Sheila that had gone crazy are you now changing Sheila to she has for the first time?
Bamber: No, I'm just saying (I've got to get my words right) - long pause. I'm just trying to remember the question.
Police: I will repeat the question
Bamber: It is easy to make conclusions as to what was going on and at the time and until now I have been told Sheila did it.
Police: My question was have you changed Sheila to she has?
Bamber: No, but I did at the time to the police on the phone say Sheila's gone crazy she's got a gun or she's got a gun she's gone crazy and I'm sure the police officer will back that up, but after being told that my sister had killed everybody it was a logical conclusion to say in my statement Sheila instead of she has.
Police:You see Mr Bamber you told the police officer on the phone it was Sheila, you mentioned it was your sister, the fact that she was suffering from mental illness so we are all told the phone call could not have been from Sheila because she has been murdered, you have now changed today from Sheila to she has. Why suddenly change from Sheila to she has?
Bamber: This is not a sudden change all I am saying is what my father said to me on the phone call which I expressed to the policeman that morning, either Sheila had gone crazy or shes got a gun or gone crazy which is my fathers words, not mine, I at the time concluded with no evidence that it must have been my sister who had a long history of mental illness.
Police: I put it to you that the reason you have changed your story is because today I have told you that Sheila was murdered and in no way could your father have said "It was Sheila." Is that the reason?
Bamber: No but at the time, as I have expressed twice, that I was unsure of the message but when I did my statement I concluded as I have said, that Sheila was the name used and not she has. They sound similarish when said fast and in a panicked voice.
Police:Are you now saying that a women killed your family as you have changed Sheila to she has?
Bamber: No, I am not saying who killed my family, if it is proved that my sister did not, and I am not changing my original words.
Police: But you have told that night on the phone verbally and the next day in writing that your Dad said Sheila, what is your position?
Bamber: On the morning when I rang the police as I have said three times before I expressed to versions of what he said and when I made my statement, it did not seem important and I naturally made the conclusion that he used the word Sheila.
Police: When you received that call from your father what was your immediate thought?
Bamber: Don't remember probably many things whizzed through my head
Police:You are an intelligent man and surely the first thing you thought about doing was to phone the police, dont you agree?
Bamber: Its a matter of opinion
Police: You say it's a matter of opinion there was your father saying Sheila or as you now say she has gone crazy with a gun The most logical thing to do was to call the police, because he appeared o be in danger.
Bamber: True, the most logical thing to do was ring the police but whether he was in danger, I had no idea. I had no evidence, or no idea at the time.
Police: But you must have thought it because you did ring the police. Do you agree?
Bamber: I did phone the police but for many different reasons.
Police: Such as?
Bamber: Long pause. No comment. Silly question.
Recap - When being interviewed about the telephone call he made to Julie on the morning of the murders...
Police: Did you say a police car would come and pick you up?
Bamber: I could have done
Police: Wasn't that the arrangement made with the policeman at the scene?
Bamber: I had asked one of the police if that was possible but no one could give a firm commitment
Police: It was discussed
Bamber: I seem to remember we had not entered the house so no commitment was necessary. Again asserting his power/control
Police: Why say; We had not entered the house so no commitment was necessary?
Bamber: Because it was not known if my parents were alright
Jeremy Bamber even attempted to blame the dog for shooting Sheila the second time.
Bamber: Automatic gun, nerves, anything could have triggered the gun again. The dog. I think your right but you sound so 100 per cent. He's playing with the police. He knows he's thought of every eventuality.. Well almost..
Police: What do you mean 100 per cent.
Bamber: You say it's impossible
Police: You are not saying the dog pulled the trigger for the second one are you?
Bamber: I'm not saying anything, but nothings impossible. He's reinforcing/asserting his power/control..
Police: You said anything could have triggered the second shot off and you mentioned the dog are you saying that after Sheila had been shot once the dog came along and pulled the trigger for the second one?
Bamber: No, it was only an idea, the dog was in the house He's played that night over and over in his head. He knows it like the back of his hand.
Police: I suggest you knew where the dog was that night , that is why you mentioned the dog. It was found in the room that morning by the bodies. Did you know that?
Bamber: You told me that.
According to West's statement, Jeremy didn't say 'Sheila' or 'she' when describing what his father had said during the call, West said he claimed Nevill have told him 'Your sister has gone crazy and has the gun'. This is also what is written on the log.
-
Tbf,
I think they will have been governed somewhat by the type and length of the article / site. I had in mind the FSU having been stood down from other duties - which appears to occur prior to any report from the scene.
But they are campaigning for Jeremy's release Roch and the mistakes and bias are abundant.
If the campaign team want to be taken seriously they need to get their facts correct and not be swayed by their bias.
It not the size of the timeline that's the problem, it's the content.
It also goes to show the campaign team in a poor light. Anyone with basic knowledge of the case will spot all the errors.
If their submissions to the CCRC are anything like this, they will be ignored, and rightly so.
-
The timeline after the police arrived at WHF is not really important.
Everyone knows the police at the scene called for backup. And that the raid team entered WHF.
The photo of the gun by the window was either a different gun, or taken after the photos of Sheila had been taken.
-
According to West's statement, Jeremy didn't say 'Sheila' or 'she' when describing what his father had said during the call, West said he claimed Nevill have told him 'Your sister has gone crazy and has the gun'. This is also what is written on the log.
"Please come over? Where has this come from? Am tired :-[
-
"Please come over? Where has this come from? Am tired :-[
It is in West's statement, he said Jeremy said "You've got to help me, my father has just phoned me saying 'Please come over, your sister has gone crazy and has the gun'"
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6845.0;attach=41408)
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Why would he be "kidding" anyway at 3 o' clock in the morning?
-
It is in West's statement, he said Jeremy said "You've got to help me, my father has just phoned me saying 'Please come over, your sister has gone crazy and has the gun'"
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6845.0;attach=41408)
Thanks Caroline. So this is the one and only phone call Bamber made to the police and this is as accurate as it gets.
This is West also isn't it?
-
A shot is a shot. It is not a noise.
(https://media.tenor.co/images/79edcf2ab92c3901188f404abd3cd921/tenor.gif)
-
(https://media.tenor.co/images/79edcf2ab92c3901188f404abd3cd921/tenor.gif)
I'm sorry you feel that way David. I know very little about guns, unlike Police Officers, who I'm quite sure are able to distinguish between the movement of a person, the report of a gun or the rustle of paper.
-
Why would he be "kidding" anyway at 3 o' clock in the morning?
And to recap...
Bamber: No, I'm just saying (I've got to get my words right) - long pause. I'm just trying to remember the question.
Police: I will repeat the question
Bamber: It is easy to make conclusions as to what was going on and at the time and until now I have been told Sheila did it.
Police: My question was have you changed Sheila to she has?
Bamber: No, but I did at the time to the police on the phone say Sheila's gone crazy she's got a gun or she's got a gun she's gone crazy and I'm sure the police officer will back that up, but after being told that my sister had killed everybody it was a logical conclusion to say in my statement Sheila instead of she has.
Police:You see Mr Bamber you told the police officer on the phone it was Sheila, you mentioned it was your sister, the fact that she was suffering from mental illness so we are all told the phone call could not have been from Sheila because she has been murdered, you have now changed today from Sheila to she has. Why suddenly change from Sheila to she has?
Bamber: This is not a sudden change all I am saying is what my father said to me on the phone call which I expressed to the policeman that morning, either Sheila had gone crazy or shes got a gun or gone crazy which is my fathers words, not mine, I at the time concluded with no evidence that it must have been my sister who had a long history of mental illness.
Police: I put it to you that the reason you have changed your story is because today I have told you that Sheila was murdered and in no way could your father have said "It was Sheila." Is that the reason?
Bamber: No but at the time, as I have expressed twice, that I was unsure of the message but when I did my statement I concluded as I have said, that Sheila was the name used and not she has. They sound similarish when said fast and in a panicked voice.
Police:Are you now saying that a women killed your family as you have changed Sheila to she has?
Bamber: No, I am not saying who killed my family, if it is proved that my sister did not, and I am not changing my original words.
Police: But you have told that night on the phone verbally and the next day in writing that your Dad said Sheila, what is your position?
Bamber: On the morning when I rang the police as I have said three times before I expressed to versions of what he said and when I made my statement, it did not seem important and I naturally made the conclusion that he used the word Sheila.
Police: When you received that call from your father what was your immediate thought?
Bamber: Don't remember probably many things whizzed through my head
Police:You are an intelligent man and surely the first thing you thought about doing was to phone the police, dont you agree?
Bamber: Its a matter of opinion
Police: You say it's a matter of opinion there was your father saying Sheila or as you now say she has gone crazy with a gun The most logical thing to do was to call the police, because he appeared o be in danger.
Bamber: True, the most logical thing to do was ring the police but whether he was in danger, I had no idea. I had no evidence, or no idea at the time.
Police: But you must have thought it because you did ring the police. Do you agree?
Bamber: I did phone the police but for many different reasons.
Police: Such as?
Bamber: Long pause. No comment. Silly question.
-
Thanks Caroline. So this is the one and only phone call Bamber made to the police and this is as accurate as it gets.
This is West also isn't it?
It certainly is.
-
(https://media.tenor.co/images/79edcf2ab92c3901188f404abd3cd921/tenor.gif)
Do you look like this bloke or something David? Only it's getting boring now and just makes you look like a plonker.
And if you want someone to take your research seriously you are going the wrong way about it mate.
You are sending mixed messages.
-
And to recap...
Bamber: No, I'm just saying (I've got to get my words right) - long pause. I'm just trying to remember the question.
Police: I will repeat the question
Bamber: It is easy to make conclusions as to what was going on and at the time and until now I have been told Sheila did it.
Police: My question was have you changed Sheila to she has?
Bamber: No, but I did at the time to the police on the phone say Sheila's gone crazy she's got a gun or she's got a gun she's gone crazy and I'm sure the police officer will back that up, but after being told that my sister had killed everybody it was a logical conclusion to say in my statement Sheila instead of she has.
Police:You see Mr Bamber you told the police officer on the phone it was Sheila, you mentioned it was your sister, the fact that she was suffering from mental illness so we are all told the phone call could not have been from Sheila because she has been murdered, you have now changed today from Sheila to she has. Why suddenly change from Sheila to she has?
Bamber: This is not a sudden change all I am saying is what my father said to me on the phone call which I expressed to the policeman that morning, either Sheila had gone crazy or shes got a gun or gone crazy which is my fathers words, not mine, I at the time concluded with no evidence that it must have been my sister who had a long history of mental illness.
Police: I put it to you that the reason you have changed your story is because today I have told you that Sheila was murdered and in no way could your father have said "It was Sheila." Is that the reason?
Bamber: No but at the time, as I have expressed twice, that I was unsure of the message but when I did my statement I concluded as I have said, that Sheila was the name used and not she has. They sound similarish when said fast and in a panicked voice.
Police:Are you now saying that a women killed your family as you have changed Sheila to she has?
Bamber: No, I am not saying who killed my family, if it is proved that my sister did not, and I am not changing my original words.
Police: But you have told that night on the phone verbally and the next day in writing that your Dad said Sheila, what is your position?
Bamber: On the morning when I rang the police as I have said three times before I expressed to versions of what he said and when I made my statement, it did not seem important and I naturally made the conclusion that he used the word Sheila.
Police: When you received that call from your father what was your immediate thought?
Bamber: Don't remember probably many things whizzed through my head
Police:You are an intelligent man and surely the first thing you thought about doing was to phone the police, dont you agree?
Bamber: Its a matter of opinion
Police: You say it's a matter of opinion there was your father saying Sheila or as you now say she has gone crazy with a gun The most logical thing to do was to call the police, because he appeared o be in danger.
Bamber: True, the most logical thing to do was ring the police but whether he was in danger, I had no idea. I had no evidence, or no idea at the time.
Police: But you must have thought it because you did ring the police. Do you agree?
Bamber: I did phone the police but for many different reasons.
Police: Such as?
Bamber: Long pause. No comment. Silly question.
The fact that West stated he said 'sister' blows the 'Sheila or she' rubbish out of the water.
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The fact that West stated he said 'sister' blows the 'Sheila or she' rubbish out of the water.
Not just that but Bambers guilt is as clear as day during police interviews.
Interestingly Mark Webster was involved un the SH case. I mention him as his WS is next to Wests in the archives.
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Not just that but Bambers guilt is as clear as day during police interviews.
Interestingly Mark Webster was involved un the SH case. I mention him as his WS is next to Wests in the archives.
Of course it is because when Jones told him they could prove Sheila didn't kill anyone, that's when he said his father might have said 'she' instead of 'Sheila. That could then shift the blame onto June. However, it seems that he said 'sister' so he meant to blame Sheila from the start - too bad that West wrote sister on the log and also passed it on to Bonnett who paraphrased and wrote 'daughter'.
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PC West's witness statement is not signed...
-
PC West's witness statement is not signed...
The one on the forum isn't as it's likely just a copy. I don't see him coming forward complaining it's false?
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Mike, point 75 is what I tried to bring to your attention recently. It is in direct contradiction to your theory regarding the rifle having been removed from the window and placed atop Sheila. The OS clearly have the sequence reversed (and this is stated on their site). I understand this still leaves a question regarding what happened to the rifle in the box room.
The official site have got the sequence wrong, the rifle was definitely photographed resting at the bedroom window in photograph number 23, prior to the same rifle being photographed with Sheila's body as in photograph numbers, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33, and here is the documentary evidence proving it:-
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The one on the forum isn't as it's likely just a copy. I don't see him coming forward complaining it's false?
He appeared to come across as nervous during the trial. Poor man
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1103.0;attach=5601;image
The judge observed he spoke slowly. .
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.
07 * 7 Aug 03:15 Approx - Nevill telephones his son, Jeremy, stating
his sister Sheila had "gone crazy" and “had the gun." He also said
“Please come over.” The phone then went dead. It had either been
unplugged or left off the hook.
I believe it to have been 3.24 / 3.25am, when Ralph Bamber made the all important telephone call to Jeremy...The reason the line appeared to go dead, is because Ralph Bamber must have depressed the cradle, and telephoned the police, hence why Jeremy kept getting the engaged tone whilst trying unsuccessfully to reestablish contact with Ralph...
08 * 03:20 Approx - Jeremy then makes several attempts to call
Nevill back using 'redial' and got the engaged tone. Unbeknown to
Jeremy this was because Nevill had realised that he needed police
assistance with Sheila.
09 * 03:20 - Nevill telephones police stating that his daughter, Sheila,
had "got hold” of one of his guns. The call is noted and titled
"daughter gone berserk." Nevill referred to Sheila's age as 26 years.
The timing of Ralph Bambers call was made at 3.26am, and explains why Jeremy kept getting a constant engaged tone...
10 * 03:26 - PC West telephones Malcolm Bonnett “On the internal
police line” to relay the call he has just received from Nevill
Bamber.
Jeremy attempts to contact Witham police station but gets no response...
11 * 03:30 Approx - PC Saxby receives a radio message, stating he
should attend at White House Farm.
Jeremy calls Julie Mugford to inform her that there's something wrong at the farm. She tells Jeremy to go back to bed...
12 * 03:35 - Police vehicle CA7 is dispatched to WHF.
Jeremy contacts Chelmsford police station...
13 * 03:36 - PC West told DCI Dickinson in November 1986, that he
called Malcolm Bonnett (discussing a call from Jeremy to Police
about the WHF incident) at this time. However, in his 16th
September statement he claims to have not actually received
Jeremy Bamber’s call until 3:36. PC West also claimed in his 9th
of September statement that Jeremy called him at 3:26. Jeremy's
call to the police refers to Sheila's age at 27 - which was accurate.
14 * 03:36 - PC Norcup and PC Cracknell are dispatched in police
vehicle CA5.
16 * 03:36 - Police vehicle CA05 is dispatched to WHF, according
to PC West’s Log.
-
I believe it was West who got the engaged tone
-
Caroline has already pointed this out Mike but Jeremy states in his first WS the alleged all important telephone call to Jeremy from Neville was 3.10am
Jeremy then states he phoned Julie at 3.25am
So it seems he phoned Julie before phoning the police, even though when he did phone the police he told them he thought his Dad sounded terrified.
I cannot find any reference to Jeremy having stated he phoned the farmhouse and got the engaged tone - it seems this is what PC West said.
Jeremy tells West he couldn't get through when he tried a second time. I cannot find any reference to Jeremy having tried the farmhouse anymore than once after the so called all important call from his Dad
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Mike posts: The timing of Ralph Bambers call was made at 3.26am, and explains why Jeremy kept getting a constant engaged tone...
The timing of RB's call as stated by Jeremy was 3.10am. Jeremy does not say he got an engaged tone, nor does he say he phoned the farmhouse more than once; so it wouldn't have been a constant engaged tone.
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Quite a few mistakes in just the first part!
01 * 6 Aug 18:00-18:39 Approx - Jeremy finishes work at White
House Farm where there is a family meal ongoing. A discussion is taking place
between June, Nevill and Sheila about what help Sheila needs.
The use of fostering again is a central theme.
The above is incorrect and does not match his first statement (the one is covets so much). According to his statement, he went to back to the farm house between 20:00 and 21:00. He then went back to the field (after the rabbit incident) somewhere between 21:00 and 21:30. He then states that he returned to the house around 21:45 (first statement)
02 * 21:30 - Jeremy leaves WHF and returns to his nearby
Goldhanger home, about three miles away.
The above is incorrect as according to him, he left WHF around 21:45
03 * 21:30 - Back at WHF Barbara Wilson, Farm Secretary,
telephones and speaks to Nevill Bamber; claiming he was "short"
with her. She was left with the impression her call had interrupted
an argument.
04 * 21:50-22:00 - Jeremy makes a telephone call to Julie at her home.
Unbeknown to Jeremy, Julie has been smoking marijuana and she
is drowsy.
This had to be 22:00 or later
05 * 22:00 - Pamela Boutflour, June’s sister, telephones White House
Farm and speaks to both June and Sheila. Pam stated that Sheila
just gave “yes and no” replies to her questions and abruptly handed
the phone back to June. June explained to Pam that she was “very
worried about Sheila and that she would like me to see her and
form an opinion about her health.” From the discussion with June,
Pam reached the conclusion that Sheila was “acting oddly”
06 * 23:00 Approx - Having watched television, Jeremy goes to bed.
07 * 7 Aug 03:15 Approx - Nevill telephones his son, Jeremy, stating
his sister Sheila had "gone crazy" and “had the gun." He also said
“Please come over.” The phone then went dead. It had either been
unplugged or left off the hook.
Jeremy's time is 03:10 not 03:15
08 * 03:20 Approx - Jeremy then makes several attempts to call
Nevill back using 'redial' and got the engaged tone. Unbeknown to
Jeremy this was because Nevill had realised that he needed police
assistance with Sheila.
He would have to have called Nevill back before 03:20 if he Nevill called at 03:10
09 * 03:20 - Nevill telephones police stating that his daughter, Sheila,
had "got hold” of one of his guns. The call is noted and titled
"daughter gone berserk." Nevill referred to Sheila's age as 26 years.
Who took Nevill's call? West? This means West is a liar from the off - hardly likely
10 * 03:26 - PC West telephones Malcolm Bonnett “On the internal
police line” to relay the call he has just received from Nevill
Bamber.
He did indeed call Bonnett, but not to relay Nevill's call, he relayed Jeremy's call. Jeremy was unsure about both Sheila's age and her married name. Both logs mention that her name is 'Bamber' and there is a discrepancy over her age - these points were things that Jeremy didn't know so it's not surprising that there is confusion and it's hardly likely that Nevill wouldn't know her married name either. One more point, West log coantins Nevill's age, the log Bonnett wrote does not because Bonnett asked Jeremy this question after f= he finished talking to Bonnett.
11 * 03:30 Approx - PC Saxby receives a radio message, stating he
should attend at White House Farm.
12 * 03:35 - Police vehicle CA7 is dispatched to WHF.
13 * 03:36 - PC West told DCI Dickinson in November 1986, that he
called Malcolm Bonnett (discussing a call from Jeremy to Police
about the WHF incident) at this time. However, in his 16th
September statement he claims to have not actually received
Jeremy Bamber’s call until 3:36. PC West also claimed in his 9th
of September statement that Jeremy called him at 3:26. Jeremy's
call to the police refers to Sheila's age at 27 - which was accurate.
West got the times wrong and again, it was Jeremy who couldn't remember Sheila's age (26 or 27).
14 * 03:36 - PC Norcup and PC Cracknell are dispatched in police
vehicle CA5.
16 * 03:36 - Police vehicle CA05 is dispatched to WHF, according
to PC West’s Log.
17 * 03:38 - Police suggest to Jeremy he should meet them at WHF
and, before doing so, he telephones Julie. The time of this call is
strongly contested by six different people. The time of the call
gets earlier in each witness statement made by prosecution
witnesses, some claimed as early as 2:59. Under cross-examination
most of the witnesses said the call could well have been closer to
3:30. The variance moots the point and suggests the possibility that
other house members might have smoked marijuana with Julie that
evening.
Jeremy said he called Julie at 03:25 so the above it picked out of the air and it was West who told him to meet the police so it was before 03:38.
18 * 03:42 - Jeremy leaves his cottage and makes his way to White
House Farm.
19 * 03:48 - Vehicle CA07 arrives at the end of Pages Lane at the
junction with Tollesbury Road. Jeremy then arrives at the same
location and is, from this time onward, in the company of police.
20 * 03:49 - Officers Bews and Myall along with Jeremy exit their
cars at the junction of Tollesbury Road and have a short discussion,
after which a decision is made by police to drive further down the
lane and park by the farm cottages.
21 * 03:50 - PC Batchelor is attributed as writing a log at the scene
from 03:50 onwards but he didn’t arrive at the scene until 04:25am.
22 * 03:55 - Officers Bews, Myall and Jeremy begin a 'perimeter
check' of the farmhouse, during which PC Myall indicates he can
see "movement" in an upstairs window. A Tactical Firearms Unit
(TFU) is contacted. The Major Incident Report at the scene goes
as far as to list what was seen as an 'Unidentified male.' Bews
makes a situation report to HQ over the radio.
23 * 04:00 - PC Saxby told the Dickinson Enquiry that he started
keeping a log at this time. In addition, he also states that he started
another, separate log which detailed who arrived and who left
White House Farm. This log has never been disclosed.
Several people kept logs which is why the whole thing got confusing
24 * 04:09 - Police report at this time that there are "no signs of life"
within the house - keep in mind that at this time that police noted:
"...all lights on in premises." This report was made as a result of PS
Bews making a second recce of the house. He told the Dickinson
Enquiry that he may have gone back a third time.
25 * 04:22 - PC Norcup and PC Cracknell arrive at the Farm in car
CA5.
26 * 04:23 - PC Batchelor and PC Lay arrive at the Farm in car CA6.
27 * 04:58 - The Firearms Unit (TFU) arrives at WHF along with a
dog unit; police vehicles QK26, QZO5, and QK50. The vehicles
contained: QK26 – PC Adams and 5 TFU Officers QK50 –
PC Mackintosh - QK05 – Dog Unit-PC Mercer.
28 * 05:25 - The Firearms team are recorded as being "in conversation
with a person from inside the farm." Jeremy is asked at this time
what Sheila would like to talk about as police arranged to engage
her in conversation.
They clearly attempted to make contact and the next sentence shows that there was no two way conversation at all 'met with no response'
29 * 05:29 - Police logs note that a "challenge to persons inside the
house [was] met with no response."
30 05:42 - A relief radio operator, PC Nicholas Milbank, takes over
from Malcolm Bonnett. PC Milbank didn’t make a statement in
1985 and it wasn’t until he was interviewed on 18.08.2002. that his
identity was revealed to the Defence. He has never disclosed what
he heard from inside White House Farm over the open telephone
line. The open line was also being recorded yet neither this recording
nor PC Milbank’s testimony is made known to the Jury and
has never been disclosed to the Defence
Because he didn't hear anything
31 * 05:45 - PC West records that GPO (Post Office) are asked to
check the phone line at White House Farm. By 1985 this would
have actually been tasked to British Telecom.
GPO/BT heard nothing either
32 * 05:47 - PC West is informed that the "phone at the scene [is]
engaged." However more than two hours prior at 03.42, West had
been told: "phone had been left off the hook."
33 * 05:50 - PC Myall starts a log but it has been disclosed and
inaccurately attributed to PC Saxby. Myall told Dickinson that he
drove car CA7 into the farmyard and began Log 12.
34 * 06:00 - Paramedics called. Ambulance 051 and 2 crew are
dispatched.
35 * 06:09 - Emergency service operators, as well as GPO/BT
operators now monitor the telephone line to White House Farm.
Jean Rowe a BT operator continues to monitor the phone
intermittently. This was being recorded onto tape but the tapes
have never been disclosed.
Had she hear anything of worth, she's have said so or is this someone else who helped frame an innocent man? For what purpose?
36 * 06:19 - PC Chaplin and PC Dixon arrive at White House Farm
in car CG32.
37 * 06:20 - Further paramedics called to the scene. Ambulance 070
and 2 crew are dispatched.
38 * 06:42 - PC Hall and PC Manners arrive at the scene in van QK23.
Also Inspector Montgomery and five TFU officers.
39 * 06:44 - Chief Inspector Clark arrives in car CG/10.
40 * 06:45 - APS Manners states that PC Collins looked into the
kitchen through the window before they broke into the house and
“reported seeing what he thought was the body of a female just
inside the kitchen door,” but apparently Nevill Bamber was found
by the Aga cooker.
41 * 07:00 - Curtains in Master Bedroom recorded as Closed. Lights
are recorded as being off in the master bedroom.
42 * 07:00 approx. - Ch. /Insp. Gibbons and PC Panting arrive at the
scene.
43 * 07:02 - A/PS Moule and five more TFU Officers arrive at the
scene in transit vehicle QK24. Thirty-two Police Officers and four
paramedics are already at the scene.
44 * 07:10 Approx - PC Brown sees a rifle in the window of the 'box'
room, adjacent to the master bedroom between 7:00am and
9:00am.
Have we got his statement?
45 * 07:15 - Curtains in the Master Bedroom now recorded as open,
with the light turned on.
46 * 07:15 - CSI Harris and PC Reed arrive at the Farm in car CA02.
47 * 07:20 - Further Paramedics called to the scene (approximate).
48 * 07:30 - Paramedics called to relieve one of the earlier crews. In
all 9 arrive at the scene.
49 * 07:30 - WPC Jeapes sees a rifle in the window of the 'box' room,
adjacent to the master bedroom between 7:30am and 9:00am. She
is located independently from PC Brown. There are no photographs
taken of this room from inside or outside the house.
No she doesn't - she saw something that 'appeared' to be a rifle
In his second statement he says he returned to the house on foot at 9.45pm
He says he then went into the kitchen and spoke to his father for about 5 minutes when they arranged to pick up the last load of rape. He then says he returned home.
He then states that this load did get picked up (rape) and if his father did it it would have taken about 20 minutes
Might be worth reading Bridget's old posts on the rape; though they may have been posted on another forum
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In his second statement he says he returned to the house on foot at 9.45pm
He says he then went into the kitchen and spoke to his father for about 5 minutes when they arranged to pick up the last load of rape. He then says he returned home.
He then states that this load did get picked up (rape) and if his father did it it would have taken about 20 minutes
Another slip up
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Then later in his 2nd statement he adds further differing details http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33765.html#msg33765
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45 * 07:15 - Curtains in the Master Bedroom now recorded as open,
with the light turned on.
46 * 07:15 - CSI Harris and PC Reed arrive at the Farm in car CA02.
47 * 07:20 - Further Paramedics called to the scene (approximate).
48 * 07:30 - Paramedics called to relieve one of the earlier crews. In
all 9 arrive at the scene.
a rifle was seen at a first floor window prior to the original six man raid team approached the farmhouse. The only rifle found upstairs was the family owned anshuzt model 525 rifle which was eventually photographed resting against the main bedroom window as in photograph number 23, prior to several other photographs showing the said rifle with Sheila Caffells body, as per photographs, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, and 33. These photographs were not all taken by PC Bird, at least one (25) was taken by a 'DC 'Oakey (SOCO), whose name has mysteriously been drafted out of the investigation...
49 * 07:30 - WPC Jeapes sees a rifle in the window of the 'box' room,
adjacent to the master bedroom between 7:30am and 9:00am. She
is located independently from PC Brown. There are no photographs
taken of this room from inside or outside the house.
She reports the sighting of this rifle there at a first floor window at around the same time as PC Brown reports seeing the same rifle at the window. I believe these sightings to have occurred at around 7.15am, and were the signal for police to go and enter the farmhouse with a view to bringing the seige to a halt...
50 * 07:34 - Police, using “stealth” tactics, enter the farmhouse by
smashing down a door with a sledgehammer. PC Rozga states: "I
looked just around the door and saw [an] overturned chair [and]
against the wall was the body of a male." Two different versions
of his statement exist to omit the re-positioning of Nevill Bamber’s
body.
Key evidence is omitted here, since upon entry to the farmhouse at around 7.30am, the raid party got delayed in entering the kitchen. There was something very heavy on the kitchen side of the internal doorway, which took some considerable time to create a gap sufficient enough to allow PS Woodcock to squeeze through at peril of being unable to train the barrel of his rifle upon any target which challenged him as he came around the opening edge of the internal door into the kitchen itself. PS Woodcock altered page contents in his witness statement with the purpose of trying to conceal the presence of Sheila in the kitchen who got shot during a struggle with Woodcock over possession of his weapon. Woodcocks entry into the kitchen caused Ralph Bambers body which had been sitting in a wooden chair behind the internal door, to topple forward sending Ralph's body crashing forward and ending up balancing precariously on another chair in front, with his head resting in a metal coal bucket...
51 * 07:34 - Having entered the house via the kitchen, police radio
through the discovery of one dead male and one dead female.
These would have been the bodies of Sheila and Nevill. The raid
team wore open microphones and were recorded. The tapes or
transcripts have never been disclosed.
At this stage, there was clearly no mix up regarding the identity of one body, for example, Ralph's body mistaken as Sheila's, or vice versa. Since the female body is mentioned after mention of the discovery of a male body, more importantly, with the use of the word 'and'..
52 * 07:36 - Reports made of “movement and voices” being heard by
police over the open telephone line as police broke in.
these movements and voices are believed to have included the struggle between Woodcock and Sheila. Sheila was shot across the throat during this struggle with Woodcock in the kitchen, and this incident was subject of an officers report on the shooting incident in the kitchen, aforementioned...
53 * 07:37 - One of the first raid officers into the house, PC Hall says,
“I immediately heard a noise upstairs and began to challenge up the
stairs I was covering, I was calling to Sheila Bamber to make her
whereabouts known to me.” At the 2002 Appeal the same officer
stated that the raid team operated using stealth tactics in silence
using hand signals. PC Rozga added: "I then heard someone from
the kitchen area warning another person not to tread in blood."
The anxiety expressed here only became apparent, after 8.10am, when to their dismay police realised that the original shot had not killed Sheila. Her body was missing from the kitchen, and police were concerned she might arm herself with a loaded weapon and shoot at them...
54 * 07:37 - After other officers entered the house the scene would
appear to have been altered because Nevill was reported to have
been near the Aga cooker seated precariously on the back of an
overturned chair.
55 * 07.38 - Another Essex Police communication, from Inspector
Norman, notes the discovery of "one dead male and one dead
female... on entry to premises." The two bodies could only have
been those of Nevill and Sheila given it is undisputed that June
and the twins were found upstairs.
56 * 07:47 - The police give an order for the recording of the open
telephone line at White House Farm - being monitored by
emergency services - to be halted.
57 * 07:48 - Police request a surgeon to attend the scene to examine
two bodies, suggesting again that two bodies (Sheila and Nevill)
were found downstairs.
58 * 07:55 - Police finally ‘officially’ search the upstairs of WHF.
The ambulance Commander, Mr Nottage arrived at the scene.
59 * 08:00 - After 8:00am, two firearms officers say in statements
ammunition and bandoliers were on the staircase leading from the
kitchen to the box room. Neither this room, the staircase, the
ammunition or bandoliers are photographed.
two bodies downstairs, three upstairs...
60 * 08:10 - After a “thorough” search of the house, Police record
the discovery of “three further bodies” These would have been the
bodies of June, Nicholas and Daniel. The finding of "three further
bodies" supports the argument that two bodies (Nevill and Sheila)
were found downstairs, as it is undisputed that five persons in total
had died.
Sheila goes missing from the kitchen!!!
Body count downstairs / upstairs has to be revised from two down, three up, into one down, four up...
61 * 08:10 approx. - PC Manners records that he spent considerable
time with the body of June Bamber, who was found with her feet
to the door. Curiously, the crime scene photos picture her with her
head against the door.
Between 9 and 10am, police practiced 'informatives'. This involved officers trying to determine how victims had been shot and killed. Bodies were moved, and the only rifle anywhere upstairs on the first floor was brought to Sheila's body, and her death scene was staged eventually to present her death as a suicide, but by the time this was done, Sheila had received a second shot, this time with use of the rifle from the window...
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In 1989, Jeremy hadn't got a clue about the timings of any of these phone calls. If the truth be known he didn't know these times of these calls, I should know because it was me who had to set about pinpointing the times of various calls based upon information recorded in different documents in his case file. Documents which Jeremy had not got or for that matter ever seen. I believe that Jeremy just guessed the time when he said this, that and the other. There was no reason for Jeremy to have to remember the time of his dad's call, all that mattered was that Jeremy tried to respond to his dad once the line went dead, and he did that first of all by trying to ring his dad back, but he got a constant engaged tone. Jeremy told me he tried to ring his dad back a couple of times, but that on each occasion he got an engaged tone. This interested me, chiefly because during his trial the prosecution relied upon the premise, (a) that if the line had gone dead, as claimed by Jeremy, he would not have been able to call his father back because the line would have remained open, and (b) he wouldn't have been able to make the call to his then girlfriend Julie Mugford, because the line between the farmhouse and his cottage would have remained inextricably linked together. However, what I was able to discover was that Ralphs call to Jeremy was made in the capacity of 'the caller', and Jeremy, 'the recipient'. All that would be required, would be for the caller to depress the cradle of the phone, and the line between Ralph and the recipient (Jeremy) would be cancelled, thus enabling Ralph to make another call, this time to the police (3.26am). Once this happened, Jeremy was free to call back to the farmhouse (as the caller), but he kept getting an engaged tone. This can only have been because his dad was speaking to the police. Jeremy didn't have a clue about the timings of calls, here, there, and everywhere, and neither did his counsel - this was because Essex police withheld vital documentation from the defence which would have enabled the defence to present a constructive argument and providing some truth to what Jeremy has said happenned all along. He did receive a very brief telephone call from his dad, which got cut short, and he did try to reestablish contact by trying to phone his dad back, but as he said, he kept getting an engaged tone. This was because at the time Jeremy was trying to reach his father, his father was already contacting the police himself. You dont really need to know timings of calls, but it helps if you know the exact sequence these calls were made in. I think the prosecutions claim that Jeremy wouldn't be able to make a call, either back to his dad, or to Julie Mugford, or to the police, has been exposed as a mistruth. He could have, and he did!!!
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In 1989, Jeremy hadn't got a clue about the timings of any of these phone calls. If the truth be known he didn't know these times of these calls, I should know because it was me who had to set about pinpointing the times of various calls based upon information recorded in different documents in his case file. Documents which Jeremy had not got or for that matter ever seen. I believe that Jeremy just guessed the time when he said this, that and the other. There was no reason for Jeremy to have to remember the time of his dad's call, all that mattered was that Jeremy tried to respond to his dad once the line went dead, and he did that first of all by trying to ring his dad back, but he got a constant engaged tone. Jeremy told me he tried to ring his dad back a couple of times, but that on each occasion he got an engaged tone. This interested me, chiefly because during his trial the prosecution relied upon the premise, (a) that if the line had gone dead, as claimed by Jeremy, he would not have been able to call his father back because the line would have remained open, and (b) he wouldn't have been able to make the call to his then girlfriend Julie Mugford, because the line between the farmhouse and his cottage would have remained inextricably linked together. However, what I was able to discover was that Ralphs call to Jeremy was made in the capacity of 'the caller', and Jeremy, 'the recipient'. All that would be required, would be for the caller to depress the cradle of the phone, and the line between Ralph and the recipient (Jeremy) would be cancelled, thus enabling Ralph to make another call, this time to the police (3.26am). Once this happened, Jeremy was free to call back to the farmhouse (as the caller), but he kept getting an engaged tone. This can only have been because his dad was speaking to the police. Jeremy didn't have a clue about the timings of calls, here, there, and everywhere, and neither did his counsel - this was because Essex police withheld vital documentation from the defence which would have enabled the defence to present a constructive argument and providing some truth to what Jeremy has said happenned all along. He did receive a very brief telephone call from his dad, which got cut short, and he did try to reestablish contact by trying to phone his dad back, but as he said, he kept getting an engaged tone. This was because at the time Jeremy was trying to reach his father, his father was already contacting the police himself. You dont really need to know timings of calls, but it helps if you know the exact sequence these calls were made in. I think the prosecutions claim that Jeremy wouldn't be able to make a call, either back to his dad, or to Julie Mugford, or to the police, has been exposed as a mistruth. He could have, and he did!!!
But et he maintained his first statement was accurate.
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Once you get to know the actual times of telephone calls using official information contained in the case file, for example, Ralph's call to police at 3.26am, and Jeremy's call to police at 3.36am, it becomes a piece of cake marrying the sequence of events together, fully explained!!!
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But et he maintained his first statement was accurate.
Jeremy didn't make his own witness statement, 'DC Clark' wrote it out, he probably paraphrased what Jeremy said in response to something he'd been asked. 'It was after 3.10am', must have been recorded as, 'at 3.10am', this sort of thing happens all the time. And another thing, if it had been Jeremy who called police at 3.25am, why did it take until 3.35am before any copper was deployed to the scene? You see, Jeremy was told to go to the farmhouse to meet the police who had already been deployed to the incident, but if his call had been at 3.26am, the police had not been deployed to the scene, had they? Yet, with 3.36am being the accurate timing of Jeremy's call to the police, the police had already been deployed to the incident (3.35am) a minute beforehand. Truth is universal, and it doesn't make sense for Jeremy to have received the call from his dad at 3.10am, and for him to wait 16 minutes before he decides to call police, using words which were spoken as if Jeremy was his dad? Whereas, the content of the 3.36am call fit him to a tee, and is a record of what he says happened, in the way he told it to the police as to how it had happenned...
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Jeremy didn't make his own witness statement, 'DC Clark' wrote it out, he probably paraphrased what Jeremy said in response to something he'd been asked. 'It was after 3.10am', must have been recorded as, 'at 3.10am', this sort of thing happens all the time. And another thing, if it had been Jeremy who called police at 3.25am, why did it take until 3.35am before any copper was deployed to the scene? You see, Jeremy was told to go to the farmhouse to meet the police who had already been deployed to the incident, but if his call had been at 3.26am, the police had not been deployed to the scene, had they? Yet, with 3.36am being the accurate timing of Jeremy's call to the police, the police had already been deployed to the incident (3.35am) a minute beforehand. Truth is universal, and it doesn't make sense for Jeremy to have received the call from his dad at 3.10am, and for him to wait 16 minutes before he decides to call police, using words which were spoken as if Jeremy was his dad? Whereas, the content of the 3.36am call fit him to a tee, and is a record of what he says happened, in the way he told it to the police as to how it had happenned...
Mike between Jeremy's witness statements and police intereviews it's clear:
He says he received call from his Dad @ 3.10am
He then states he phoned Julie at 3.25am
The police record Jeremy phoning then at 3.26am
PC West states he put Jeremy on hold for about 3 minutes whilst he phoned Witham
Your timings are way out Mike.
The other question is why did Jeremy offer up another 20 minutes (Re Rape collection) to the police but is referring to his Dad?
He states: If his Father collected it (Words to that effect) What does he mean?
And why does Jeremy give different timings regarding when he left the farmhouse in each statement?
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Jeremy didn't make his own witness statement, 'DC Clark' wrote it out, he probably paraphrased what Jeremy said in response to something he'd been asked. 'It was after 3.10am', must have been recorded as, 'at 3.10am', this sort of thing happens all the time. And another thing, if it had been Jeremy who called police at 3.25am, why did it take until 3.35am before any copper was deployed to the scene? You see, Jeremy was told to go to the farmhouse to meet the police who had already been deployed to the incident, but if his call had been at 3.26am, the police had not been deployed to the scene, had they? Yet, with 3.36am being the accurate timing of Jeremy's call to the police, the police had already been deployed to the incident (3.35am) a minute beforehand. Truth is universal, and it doesn't make sense for Jeremy to have received the call from his dad at 3.10am, and for him to wait 16 minutes before he decides to call police, using words which were spoken as if Jeremy was his dad? Whereas, the content of the 3.36am call fit him to a tee, and is a record of what he says happened, in the way he told it to the police as to how it had happenned...
It's blatantly obvious Jeremy never received a call from his Dad Mike. As you say, why would he wait 16 minutes before phoning the police? And why phone Julie before phoning the police?
Don't forget in between receiving an alleged call from his Dad and phoning Chelmsford, he also says he phoned Witham but couldn't get through.
And as pointed out by a local (Relative) the villagers knew Witham was closed between 2.00 - 4.00am.
There are too many slip ups in Jeremy's witness statements and police interviews. No one coerced Jeremy during the interviews. He had his solicitor with him. He only answered questions he wanted to answer and remained firm his first witness statement was correct.
Further if Jeremy did think like you think Mike, he's had 32 years to say so. He never has. He's always stuck to his first statement!
Further, if you believe Julie lied then you can't rely on her timings. It's Jeremy's or Julies.
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The official site have got the sequence wrong, the rifle was definitely photographed resting at the bedroom window in photograph number 23, prior to the same rifle being photographed with Sheila's body as in photograph numbers, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33, and here is the documentary evidence proving it:-
They've got more than the sequence wrong Mike.
They've got the most basic timings wrong.
The Courts, CCRC and all others who have knowledge of this case will know the CT are putting out erroneous information. Not sure how they expect to be taken seriously if they can't stick to the basic facts.
And not sure if they have chosen to publicise the wrongs times on purpose or whether they have confused themselves?
All they need to do is stick to Jeremy's witness statements and police interviews.
They also need to factor in when Jeremy is meant to have loaded the guns in order to go out and shoot the rabbits.
And why he tells the police about the rape? Why did he offer up a further 20 minutes re rape collection. Did he collect the rape before murdering his family?
If his father did it? What did he mean by this? If his father didn't do it who did it? He (Jeremy) states the rape was collected.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705
This WS from Bamber does not mention Nevill saying "please come over".
It's even more strange that Nevill would only say 8 words to Bamber. After waiting for several minutes for Bamber to wake from 'sleeping like a log'.
Bamber also said he removed the magazine after returning from hunting rabbits. Meaning Sheila had load it.
This WS also backs up some of what Julie said Bamber told her in his 3am phone call - " there is something wrong at the farm".
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33705.html#msg33705
This WS from Bamber does not mention Nevill saying "please come over".
It's even more strange that Nevill would only say 8 words to Bamber. After waiting for several minutes for Bamber to wake from 'sleeping like a log'.
Bamber also said he removed the magazine after returning from hunting rabbits. Meaning Sheila had load it.
There's no doubting Jeremy Bamber slipped up over and over Adam and it is because of these slip ups that the police knew he was guilty and he was rightfully found guilty in a Court of law.
He's conned a lot of people over the years and it's not easy to accept having been conned but his supporters will eventually come to terms with these facts and he will have no where to turn.
And further;
Any forensic expert worth their salt won't get involved with the Bamber case when they realise the CT are putting out erroneous information as basic as Bamber's timings.
As in the SH case, they will be required to use official court documents when putting forward any new argument and they too, if they get that far, will realised they have been conned.##It's not the fault of the campaign team, or anyone else for that matter.
Men like Bamber are easy to like. They are extremely convincing and have the pity plays down to a tee. They know what buttons to push in their victims.
I feel sorry for all those people who have been taken in like they have.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33765.html#msg33765
This second WS he says Sheila had never fired the murder weapon. A weapon she had to load the magazine for and then chamber. Before firing shots.
It also says he immediately returned after the rabbits were no longer there. However in his earlier WS he said he was outside for 5 minutes.
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He appeared to come across as nervous during the trial. Poor man
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1103.0;attach=5601;image
The judge observed he spoke slowly. .
I included this link for you Roch as you had referred to it in a previous post.
Caroline,
I haven't read the letter - but I have heard that Ainsley 'marked West's card' so to speak, on account of his performance at trial.
I personally do not understand why West would want to persist (among all the inner turmoil of the investigation and the external pressures such as media attention) with the stance that he did not make an error. I'm sorry but I feel this is a decidedly stubborn position for West to take.
It's an interersting point about why the police did not pass on to JB that RNB had made contact. However - it is also interesting that the relatives have remained mute or chosen to 'forget' what DCI Thomas Jones explained to them - in order to suppress their concern that Sheila was not responsible.
West comes across as nervous during the trial. It's clear he hadn't rehearsed his evidence, as also pointed out by Ainsley. Does anyone know how old West was at the time and had he ever given evidence in a court of law before the Bamber trial?
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33765.html#msg33765
This second WS he says Sheila had never fired the murder weapon. A weapon she had to load the magazine for and then chamber. Before firing shots.
It also says he immediately returned after the rabbits were no longer there. However in his earlier WS he said he was outside for 5 minutes.
Exactly Adam. It's all there!
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I wasn't convinced by Mike's suggestion that the massacre was carried out by a hit man team. Which would have made Bamber innocent.
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I wasn't convinced by Mike's suggestion that the massacre was carried out by a hit man team. Which would have made Bamber innocent.
To be fair to Mike it's clear over the years he's had a lot of his own personal stuff to contend with. There's no wonder he's made mistakes. We all make them. The mind can believe anything, as SH once said to me. ::)
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The campaign team are now promoting Jeremy's 56th Birthday in mid January requesting cards and gifts.
These exercises keep the victims (The CT) focus elsewhere, as opposed to on the case and the factual evidence. I did it myself. Having been brainwashed by Jeremy, they will no doubt be snowed under with all of his demands.
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He's 2 weeks older than my eldest daughter.
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He's 2 weeks older than my eldest daughter.
The difference being, he's a killer your daughter isn't!
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To be fair to Mike it's clear over the years he's had a lot of his own personal stuff to contend with. There's no wonder he's made mistakes. We all make them. The mind can believe anything, as SH once said to me. ::)
Jeremy told Mike many moons ago that he (Mike) was a clever bast*rd. Why doesn't Mike show Jeremy what a clever B he is and go to the press and present them with evidence of Bamber's guilt?
He could put this case to bed once and for all.
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My timings of the calls are entirely accurate, the witness statement version of events have got the wrong times for one reason or another. You only have to look at the alteration in Julie Mugfords accounts relating to the time of Jeremy's call to her that morning, 3.30am, 3.15am, or earlier. Additionally, one of her house mates placed the time of that early morning call at around 2.00am ...
Ralph definitely phoned Jeremy, Jeremy tried to ring back but kept getting the engaged tone, Ralph phoned the police (3.26am), Jeremy tried to phone Witham police station but got no response (3.29am), then Jeremy phoned Julie Mugford (3.30am), then Jeremy phoned Chelmsford police station (3.36am). Witham police station was manned all night, Bews, Myall and Saxby were on duty there on that first morning of the investigation, but when Jeremy phoned they had gone out on another Job, and did not return to Witham until around 3.34am, at which point they were contacted by Chelmsford police station, and they went straight back out again at 3.36am. Another police vehicle was deployed to the scene (CA05) before Jeremy contacted Chelmsford police station. These are the facts...
In any event, people can play around with the timing of this call, and that call, as much as they like, it still won't alter the now known fact that Sheila was present downstairs in the kitchen since before 7.35am when DCI Terry Gibbons authorised a message to be passed back to the incident room regarding two bodies found in kitchen upon entry, and he requested that a police surgeon, a Coroner's officer, and the divisional DCI be notified of the two bodies police were dealing with by that stage. The corresponding police message log entries at 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 8.10am, tell it as it was inside the farmhouse, two bodies downstairs, three bodies up. Not just a case of two bodies downstairs in the kitchen, but to be more specific, 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female'. Furthermore, by 7.45am, staff in the incident room were in possession of information to the effect that the death of the male, and the reported death of the female body in the ktchen, was a murder, and 'a suicide'. They relayed this information to 'DS Davidson' at his home address at precisely 7.45am. So, there it is, police finding two bodies upon entry to the kitchen, the body of one dead male (we have to presumed this being a reference to the body of Ralph Bamber, murdered,), and 'the body of one dead female ( this body could not have been a reference to June Bamber because her death could in no way be described as being a suicide). The first body which police came upon when entering the kitchen was the body of Ralph Bamber, he had been murdered. The second body police reported as being present in the kitchen upon entry, was Sheila (hers was the only purported death by that stage which with there being only one shot to the neck at that stage, could have been reported as a suicide). The fact that she was reported dead at this time, proved incorrect. The pathologist Venezis stated that the shot across the neck (first shot) was not immediately fatal. This is consistent with Sheila still being alive in the kitchen with only a solitary shot to the neck. I have outlined how she got shot in the kitchen during a struggle with PS Woodcock over possession of his gun as he came around the opening edge of the internal door. I have described how police said Sheila had appeared to deliberately pull the muzzle of Woodcocks weapon into her own neck region, and I have laid out the now known facts regarding how that weapon 'discharged' a shot which penetrated Sheila's neck, thought to have killed her! I have drawn attention to the whole scale alteration in PS Woodcocks witness statement which started off being a 15 page statement, but which due to the editing out of the facts surrounding Woodcocks entry into the kitchen and the shooting of Sheila, was dramatically reduced to 10 pages. At that part of the revised witness statement where Woodcock seeks to describe his entry into the kitchen, a totally different typewriter has been used to create an edited version of the truth. There exists, also, an officers report concerning the shooting incident in the kitchen - this officers report was made out by PS Woodcock because he shot Sheila with his rifle once in the kitchen. When Woodcock returned his weapon and ammunition to the force Armoury that morning, he was one bullet short in the total he had been issued with. Two bodies then, found in kitchen upon entry, Ralph and Sheila. The former known to be a murder, the latter reported as a suicide. This was all known about and true prior to 7.45am, that morning!!!
Only three bodies upstairs by 8.10am. No prizes for guessing whose bodies these were of?
June Bamber, Daniel and Nicholas Caffell...
The pathologist Knight testified saying that he believed that Sheila could have moved around for quite some time after the first shot. At one stage, he agreed that she could have moved around for as long as half an hour before the second shot was inflicted. Not to be overlooked, was that neither Venezis of Knight knew anything at all about Sheila being downstairs in the kitchen when police eventually entered, and she was reported to be dead, by way of suicide. Of course, if the contents of these key police message logs had not been deliberately withheld by the police and the so called prosecuting authorities, more weight might have been attached to Knights testimony regarding Sheila's ability to still be mobile after receiving the first shot to the neck whilst in the kitchen. However, it must be said, because it is right and proper to do so, that upon being shot in the neck during the aforementioned shooting incident in the kitchen, that Sheila did not run off, or walk about immediately, but instead collapsed onto the kitchen floor. Hence why police reported her presence there in the kitchen at that stage. Police mistakenly believed they had shot and killed her at a time when they had almost all of the other rooms downstairs and upstairs to search and clear. It seems so obvious to me that upon being shot that Sheila collapsed in the kitchen into unconsciousness and shock, or whatever, only to regain her senses, get up onto her feet and hide or rest in the spiral staircase, before making her way into the main bedroom where she collapsed again into unconsciousness. I am not saying that all of this happened in minutes or seconds because it didn't. There was a delay between 8.10am, and 8.44am, during which Sheila made a temporary recovery in the kitchen, travelled up the spiral stair located between kitchen and first floor landing, and the short journey into the main bedroom. I believe this activity on Sheila's part which explains how her body moved from its original location in the kitchen to the main bedroom upstairs fits in with Knights account, regarding the potential for Sheila to have been able to move around once the first shot was inflicted. The only difference between what Knight says was possible, and what I am saying did happen, is that Sheila was not moving around continually for a period of up to half an hour, she was motionless after being shot in the kitchen, regained her senses and recovered sufficiently enough to make her way onto the spiral stair, 'rested there, or hid, or both', maybe she could have sank into a semi unconsciousness again there on that stair, before recovering and making the last effort to get into the main bedroom where she knew she might get access to the rifle she had placed at the first floor window. Now, it doesn't concern me whether she placed the rifle at the box room window, or the main bedroom window, since her attempt to potentially take possession of the rifle, entailed her to have to reach it there via the main bedroom. But, for one reason or another she only made it as far as the bed. The police surgeon Craig did not physically examine Sheila at 8.44am, when he pronounced her dead, he reached that conclusion by a cursory glance at her body. That was another mistake in the investigation, because she wasn't completely dead by that stage, but she may have been very close to death. At this stage she had what appeared to be an entry wound to her throat. What this suggests is that if the pathologist Venezis is right about the impact of the two shots eventually found to her neck, the second one of which would have proved to be instantaneously fatal, is that by 8.44am, that fatal second shot had not yet by that stage been fired!!!
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My timings of the calls are entirely accurate, the witness statement version of events have got the wrong times for one reason or another. You only have to look at the alteration in Julie Mugfords accounts relating to the time of Jeremy's call to her that morning, 3.30am, 3.15am, or earlier. Additionally, one of her house mates placed the time of that early morning call at around 2.00am ...
Ralph definitely phoned Jeremy, Jeremy tried to ring back but kept getting the engaged tone, Ralph phoned the police (3.26am), Jeremy tried to phone Witham police station but got no response (3.29am), then Jeremy phoned Julie Mugford (3.30am), then Jeremy phoned Chelmsford police station (3.36am). Witham police station was manned all night, Bews, Myall and Saxby were on duty there on that first morning of the investigation, but when Jeremy phoned they had gone out on another Job, and did not return to Witham until around 3.34am, at which point they were contacted by Chelmsford police station, and they went straight back out again at 3.36am. Another police vehicle CA05 was deployed to the scene (3.team) before Jeremy contacted Chelmsford police station. These are the facts...
In any event, people can play around with the timing of this call, and that call, as much as they like, it still won't alter the now known fact that Sheila was present downstairs in the kitchen since before 7.35am when DCI Terry Gibbons authorised a message to be passed back to the incident room regarding two bodies found in kitchen upon entry, and he requested that a police surgeon, a Coroner's officer, and the divisional DCI be notified of the two bodies police were dealing with by that stage. The corresponding police message log entries at 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 8.10am, tell it as it was inside the farmhouse, two bodies downstairs, three bodies up. Not just a case of two bodies downstairs in the kitchen, but to be more specific, 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female'. Furthermore, by 7.45am, staff in the incident room were in possession of information to the effect that the death of the male, and the reported death of the female body in the ktchen, was a murder, and 'a suicide'. They relayed this information to 'DS Davidson' at his home address at precisely 7.45am. So, there it is, police finding two bodies upon entry to the kitchen, the body of one dead male (we have to presumed this being a reference to the body of Ralph Bamber, murdered,), and 'the body of one dead female ( this body could not have been a reference to June Bamber because her death could in no way be described as being a suicide). The first body which police came upon when entering the kitchen was the body of Ralph Bamber, he had been murdered. The second body police reported as being present in the kitchen upon entry, was Sheila (hers was the only purported death by that stage which with there being only one shot to the neck at that stage, could have been reported as a suicide. The fact that she was reported dead at this time, proved incorrect. The pathologist Venezis stated that the shot across the neck (first shot) was not immediately fatal. This is consistent with Sheila still being alive in the kitchen with only a solitary shot to the neck. I have outlined how she got shot in the kitchen during a struggle with PS Woodcock over possession of his gun as he came around the opening edge of the internal door. I have described how police said Sheila had appeared to deliberately pull the muzzle of Woodcocks weapon into her own neck region, and I have laid out the now known facts regarding how that weapon 'discharged' a shot which penetrated Sheila's neck, thought to have killed her! I have drawn attention to the whole scale alteration in PS Woodcocks witness statement which started off being a 15 page statement, but which due to the editing out of the facts surrounding Woodcocks entry into the kitchen and the shooting of Sheila, was dramatically reduced to 10 pages. At that part of the revised witness statement where Woodcock seeks to describe his entry into the kitchen, a totally different typewriter has been used to create an edited version of the truth. There exists, also, an officers report concerning the shooting incident in the kitchen - this officers report was made out by PS Woodcock because he shot Sheila with his rifle once in the kitchen. When Woodcock returned his weapon and ammunition Orion to the force Armoury that morning, he was one bullet short in the total he had been issued with. Two bodies then, found in kitchen upon entry, Ralph and Sheila. The former known to be a murder, the latter reported as a suicide. This was all known about and true prior to 7.45am, that morning!!!
Only three bodies upstairs by 8.10am. No prizes for guessing whose bodies these were of?
June Bamber, Daniel and Nicholas Caffell...
The pathologist Knight testified saying that he believed that Sheila could have moved around for quite some time after the first shot. At one stage, he agreed that she could have moved around for as long as half an hour before the second shot was inflicted. Not to be overlooked, was that neither Venezis of Knight knew anything at all about Sheila being downstairs in the kitchen when police eventually entered, and she was reported to be dead, by way of suicide. Of course, if the contents of these key police message logs had not been deliberately withheld by the police and the so called prosecuting authorities, more weight might have been attached to Knights testimony regarding Sheila's ability to still be mobile after receiving the first shot to the neck whilst in the kitchen. However, it must be said, because it is right and proper to do so, that upon being shot in the neck during the aforementioned shooting incident in the kitchen, that Sheila did not run off, or walk about immediately, but instead collapsed onto the kitchen floor. Hence why police reported her presence there in the kitchen at that stage. Police mistakenly believed they had shot and killed her at a time when they had almost all of the other rooms downstairs and upstairs to search and clear. It seems so obvious to me that upon being shot that Sheila collapsed in the kitchen into unconsciousness and shock, or whatever, only to regain her senses, get up onto her feet and hide or rest in the spiral staircase, before making her way into the main bedroom where she collapsed again into unconsciousness. I am not saying that all of this happened in minutes or seconds because it didn't. There was a delay between 8.10am, and 8.44am, during which Sheila made a temporary recovery in the kitchen, travelled up the spiral stair located between kitchen and first floor landing, and the short journey into the main bedroom. I believe this activity on Sheila's part which explains how her body moved from its original location in the kitchen to the main bedroom upstairs fits in with Knights account, regarding the potential for Sheila to have been able to move around once the first shot was inflicted. The only difference between what Knight says was possible, and what I am saying did happen, is that Sheila was not moving around continually for a period of up to half an hour, she was motionless after being shot in the kitchen, regained her senses and recovered sufficiently enough to make her way onto the spiral stair, 'rested there, or hid, or both', maybe she could have sank into a semi unconsciousness again there on that stair, before recovering and making the last effort to get into the main bedroom where she knew she might get access to the rifle she had placed at the first floor window. Now, it doesn't concern me whether she placed the rifle at the box room window, or the main bedroom window, since her attempt to potentially take possession of the rifle, entailed her to have to reach it there via the main bedroom. But, for one reason or another she only made it as far as the bed. The police surgeon Craig did not physically examine Sheila at 8.44am, when he pronounced her dead, he reached that conclusion by a cursory glance at her body. That was another mistake in the investigation, because she wasn't completed dead by that stage, but she may have been very close to death. At this stage she had what appeared to be an entry wound to her throat. What this suggests is that if the pathologist Venezis is right about the impact of the two shots eventually found to her neck, the second one of which would have proved to be instantaneously fatal, is that by 8.44am, that fatal second shot had not yet by that stage been fired!!!
Mike I'm unsure why you are digging your heals in? You know the timings you have posted above are wrong.
Plus as I've already stated; if Julie was lying, which you say she was, why are you relying on her timings and not Jeremy's?
You either believe her to be a liar or she was telling the truth. You can't pick and choose what evidence of hers you wish to use to support your argument.
Mike you have an opportunity to put this case to bed once and for all. What's stopping you?
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Jeremy told Mike many moons ago that he (Mike) was a clever bast*rd. Why doesn't Mike show Jeremy what a clever B he is and go to the press and present them with evidence of Bamber's guilt?
He could put this case to bed once and for all.
You'd just like that,wouldn't you ?
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You'd just like that,wouldn't you ?
Anyone could do it Lookout. I could do it if I wanted. I just think someone like Mike deserves to wrap things up, after all the time and energy he's put in over the years. It could also help him come to terms with the betrayal.
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The timings I rely upon are accurate and fit in with all the now known facts - I don't rely on any timings given by Julie or Jeremy. I rely on the sequence with which these calls happened, it's called reconstructing the events from the known facts. The police message log contents were not communication errors, they were an accurate account of real time events. Jeremy had no input into the way any of these messages were being relayed. If he had known these facts his defence at his trial would have been run differently, and the outcome would have been in his favour!!!
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The timings I rely upon are accurate and fit in with all the now known facts - I don't rely on any timings given by Julie or Jeremy. I rely on the sequence with which these calls happened, it's called reconstructing the events from the known facts. The police message log contents were not communication errors, they were an accurate account of real time events. Jeremy had no input into the way any of these messages were being relayed. If he had known these facts his defence at his trial would have been run differently, and the outcome would have been in his favour!!!
So then you are relying on the timings given by the police? The same police you say stitched Bamber up?
Come on Mike! Stop doing this. You are better than people like Jeremy Bamber!
Jeremy had access to the police logs prior to his trial. Why are you making excuses?
It was Jeremy who let Jeremy down. No one else.
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The timings I rely upon are accurate and fit in with all the now known facts - I don't rely on any timings given by Julie or Jeremy. I rely on the sequence with which these calls happened, it's called reconstructing the events from the known facts. The police message log contents were not communication errors, they were an accurate account of real time events. Jeremy had no input into the way any of these messages were being relayed. If he had known these facts his defence at his trial would have been run differently, and the outcome would have been in his favour!!!
The outcome wasn't in his favour because it was showed he had lied Mike!
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There are numerous timelines of events Mike.
Jeremy's
Julie's
The police
The CT
Yours
& others.
It was Jeremy Bamber who was accused of the murders. Therefore it is his timeline that is in question.
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There are numerous timelines of events Mike.
Jeremy's
Julie's
The police
The CT
Yours
& others.
It was Jeremy Bamber who was accused of the murders. Therefore it is his timeline that is in question.
His first statement is important and those times crucial. The time of the first phone call was given as 'about' 03:10 - not about 03:00 or 03:15. He argued against calling the police at 03:36 initially, until he had the idea of Nevill calling the police, not he's arguing FOR 03:36. The CT seem intent on arguing that Nevill called the police and that there was evidence of Sheila being alive while police were outside. If this formed part of submissions, it would be kicked out - again.
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His first statement is important and those times crucial. The time of the first phone call was given as 'about' 03:10 - not about 03:00 or 03:15. He argued against calling the police at 03:36 initially, until he had the idea of Nevill calling the police, not he's arguing FOR 03:36. The CT seem intent on arguing that Nevill called the police and that there was evidence of Sheila being alive while police were outside. If this formed part of submissions, it would be kicked out - again.
Totally Caroline.
Jeremy relies on the ideas of others in order to keep his campaign alive.
Here he is thanking those people for all their ideas.
"I also want to thank the people who have come forward as part of our appeal for new information —no matter how small and insignificant you think your knowledge is it all helps build a picture and often evidence from two different people will fit together perfectly like missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle—so don’t hesitate to get in touch if you have information. http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/new-case-material-obtained.html
Those of us who know the case inside out know that there is no one out there who will have firsthand knowledge of what happened that night. So why is he thanking people are requesting others come forward?
It's simple. He wants peoples ideas in order to continue the farce that he started. Just as SH did with people like Stephanie Bon, the Innocent Project, Rough Justice etc etc.
People like Bamber exploit others. This is all they know. Is isn't about the truth; it's about keeping the lie going for as long as possible.
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His first statement is important and those times crucial. The time of the first phone call was given as 'about' 03:10 - not about 03:00 or 03:15. He argued against calling the police at 03:36 initially, until he had the idea of Nevill calling the police, not he's arguing FOR 03:36. The CT seem intent on arguing that Nevill called the police and that there was evidence of Sheila being alive while police were outside. If this formed part of submissions, it would be kicked out - again.
And again the Courts, the CCRC and all those people who have worked on this case in the past will see it for what it is.
However much they attempt to push it, bottom line is they will get no where.
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And again the Courts, the CCRC and all those people who have worked on this case in the past will see it for what it is.
However much they attempt to push it, bottom line is they will get no where.
Just lots of eye rolling and thoughts of 'not again'.
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"The admin team have now obtained further case papers relating to my innocence and work sifting through the evidence will start on these in the coming weeks. It’s amazing how even after 28 years new information keeps emerging. http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/new-case-material-obtained.html
This is referred to as 'Dupers delight.'
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His first statement is important and those times crucial. The time of the first phone call was given as 'about' 03:10 - not about 03:00 or 03:15. He argued against calling the police at 03:36 initially, until he had the idea of Nevill calling the police, not he's arguing FOR 03:36. The CT seem intent on arguing that Nevill called the police and that there was evidence of Sheila being alive while police were outside. If this formed part of submissions, it would be kicked out - again.
Caroline - from a guilty standpoint, why worry about it? What you say regarding submissions is probably true.
I think though that what people are genuinely trying to do is work out what really happened, from what information is already available. This involves a certain amount of reading in between the lines to fill in the gaps in understanding (and this is obviously done from a standpoint of distrust towards EP about what really happened that morning). Trying to fill in the gaps in understanding and trying to prove something are sometimes just not compatible. Even if Nevill did phone Jeremy and police either once or twice, there is probably no way of absolutely proving that he did so. Ainsley would have likely had all of the crucial evidence destroyed - OR - you are right, the innocent camp is wrong and there was never any crucial evidence around the calls to destroy in the first place. JB isn't going anywhere is he? I think the authorities have made this clear.
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"The admin team have now obtained further case papers relating to my innocence and work sifting through the evidence will start on these in the coming weeks. It’s amazing how even after 28 years new information keeps emerging. http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/new-case-material-obtained.html
This is referred to as 'Dupers delight.'
Is it not just an example of long-standing non-disclosure and eventual disclosure?
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Caroline - from a guilty standpoint, why worry about it? What you say regarding submissions is probably true.
I think though that what people are genuinely trying to do is work out what really happened, from what information is already available. This involves a certain amount of reading in between the lines to fill in the gaps in understanding (and this is obviously done from a standpoint of distrust towards EP about what really happened that morning). Trying to fill in the gaps in understanding and trying to prove something are sometimes just not compatible. Even if Nevill did phone Jeremy and police either once or twice, there is probably no way of absolutely proving that he did so. Ainsley would have likely had all of the crucial evidence destroyed - OR - you are right, the innocent camp is wrong and there was never any crucial evidence around the calls to destroy in the first place. JB isn't going anywhere is he? I think the authorities have made this clear.
I don't worry about it Roch, I'm just interested in the MANY excuses that people make for Jeremy's behaviour and I also hate the myths that form from over excited members who put two and two together but can't add them up. Filling the gaps is one thing, but most use too much mortar and it ends up on the floor. Lets just say I like to 'clean up' a little.
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Caroline - from a guilty standpoint, why worry about it? What you say regarding submissions is probably true.
I think though that what people are genuinely trying to do is work out what really happened, from what information is already available. This involves a certain amount of reading in between the lines to fill in the gaps in understanding (and this is obviously done from a standpoint of distrust towards EP about what really happened that morning). Trying to fill in the gaps in understanding and trying to prove something are sometimes just not compatible. Even if Nevill did phone Jeremy and police either once or twice, there is probably no way of absolutely proving that he did so. Ainsley would have likely had all of the crucial evidence destroyed - OR - you are right, the innocent camp is wrong and there was never any crucial evidence around the calls to destroy in the first place. JB isn't going anywhere is he? I think the authorities have made this clear.
Everyone knows what happened -
Bamber committee the massacre.
Rang Julie.
Rang the police.
Went to WHF.
Bamber has spent 7 years trying to manipulate a document digit being a 3 rather than a 2, and claim Nevill also called the 5th furthest away police station.
He also says he phoned Julie after the police. But was very unsure of the sequence when interviewed by the police. Julies flatmates also refute Bamber's claim.
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Jeremy told Mike many moons ago that he (Mike) was a clever bast*rd. Why doesn't Mike show Jeremy what a clever B he is and go to the press and present them with evidence of Bamber's guilt?
He could put this case to bed once and for all.
I asked the same -perfectly reasonable- question withing weeks of joining the forum. Mike insisted, back then, he had evidence which could free Jeremy and I wanted to know why he was telling a forum when he could have been presenting what he knew to Jeremy's legal team.
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Is it not just an example of long-standing non-disclosure and eventual disclosure?
No Roch, it's an excuse. It's BS. And it's the same BS guilty men use to buy them time. Jeremy would have been told about disclosure prior to his trial. I have a letter written by the police to SH and his parents about disclosure. I can't be bothered to fish it out but Jeremy had experience of the criminal justice system and would have known his rights. He showed he knew his rights during police interviews. Even though his performance about speaking to his solicitor in private was over-egged imo.
Should a convicted sex offender be given access to all photos used against him in a court of law?
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Is it not just an example of long-standing non-disclosure and eventual disclosure?
Roch, two years ago Jeremy told me he had almost ALL of the PII documents and pictures but every week we hear more and more about none disclosure or thugs still hidden. I could say anything existed but that the police were hiding it, it doesn't mean it's true and you can't disclose what you don't have.
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Mike I'm unsure why you are digging your heals in? You know the timings you have posted above are wrong.
Plus as I've already stated; if Julie was lying, which you say she was, why are you relying on her timings and not Jeremy's?
You either believe her to be a liar or she was telling the truth. You can't pick and choose what evidence of hers you wish to use to support your argument.
Mike you have an opportunity to put this case to bed once and for all. What's stopping you?
Mike has never changed his stance and there is no new evidence available to give him a reason to change his stance
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Anyone could do it Lookout. I could do it if I wanted. I just think someone like Mike deserves to wrap things up, after all the time and energy he's put in over the years. It could also help him come to terms with the betrayal.
Do it then!! Your not doing anything else
Go to the press
If you are taken seriously you might make some money out of it
You won't though will you
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You won't though will you
Maybe I will
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Caroline - from a guilty standpoint, why worry about it? What you say regarding submissions is probably true.
I think though that what people are genuinely trying to do is work out what really happened, from what information is already available. This involves a certain amount of reading in between the lines to fill in the gaps in understanding (and this is obviously done from a standpoint of distrust towards EP about what really happened that morning). Trying to fill in the gaps in understanding and trying to prove something are sometimes just not compatible. Even if Nevill did phone Jeremy and police either once or twice, there is probably no way of absolutely proving that he did so. Ainsley would have likely had all of the crucial evidence destroyed - OR - you are right, the innocent camp is wrong and there was never any crucial evidence around the calls to destroy in the first place. JB isn't going anywhere is he? I think the authorities have made this clear.
Spot on post
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I don't worry about it Roch, I'm just interested in the MANY excuses that people make for Jeremy's behaviour and I also hate the myths that form from over excited members who put two and two together but can't add them up. Filling the gaps is one thing, but most use too much mortar and it ends up on the floor. Lets just say I like to 'clean up' a little.
But you haven't cleaned up have you even though you are on here 24/7
Where's a plausible explanation for special branch destroying evidence
Why would an intelligent girl like Julie Mugford not go to the police immediately after the murders
How extraordinary how Ewen smith get head hunted by the CCRC just as he was working on the JB case
Why did the CCRC decide to close down the application from JB just as Simon McKay a high profile solicitor had been instructed
Why have the defence never been allowed to see witness statements from when the case was a suicide and not a murder
What exactly have you closed down and exactly how many people on this forum believe you have closed anything down
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Maybe I will
Good
Brilliant news
Then you can post how successful you have been
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Caroline - from a guilty standpoint, why worry about it? What you say regarding submissions is probably true.
I think though that what people are genuinely trying to do is work out what really happened, from what information is already available. This involves a certain amount of reading in between the lines to fill in the gaps in understanding (and this is obviously done from a standpoint of distrust towards EP about what really happened that morning). Once you get past this bias Roch, you will be in a better position to see both side of the argument as opposed the one you favour due to your distrust with EP Trying to fill in the gaps in understanding and trying to prove something are sometimes just not compatible. Even if Nevill did phone Jeremy and police either once or twice, there is probably no way of absolutely proving that he did so. Ainsley would have likely had all of the crucial evidence destroyed - OR - you are right, the innocent camp is wrong and there was never any crucial evidence around the calls to destroy in the first place. JB isn't going anywhere is he? I think the authorities have made this clear.
It's already been proven in a court of law and indeed on this forum that Jeremy Bamber is guilty.
There was no call from Nevill. The facts are then when you are ready to see them Roch.
Ainsley didn't have any crucial evidence destroyed. It was Bamber who had crucial evidence destroyed; including the poor little dog. He knew exactly what he was doing when he agreed to having the carpets incinerated and that of his family members. >:( :(
People like Jeremy Bamber are clogging up the criminal justice system and in so doing are allowing genuinely innocent men and women to suffer because of their greed, omnipotence and psychopathy.
The knock on effect of the criminal behaviours of men like Bamber is far reaching Roch.
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Good
Brilliant news
Then you can post how successful you have been
Stop focusing on me and focus on the case. The reason you are no further forward and haven't yet figured out Bamber to be guilty is because you are too wrapped up in everyone else; like me for example. Put your personal differences to one side and look at what is staring you in the face.
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Good
Brilliant news
Then you can post how successful you have been
Maybe it will be you who finally goes to the press with Bamber's guilt, when you realise you have been played?
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There's nothing like giving yourself a pat on the back for " cleaning up " a case which involved five murders,Caroline. You must have been up all night,every night with your testing kit.
These are not " excuses " which others give,they are suggestions in opposition to your " excuses ".You seem to be of the opinion that only those who are guilters are allowed their views,while the supporters are just an inconvenience giving theirs.
A debate is never a one-sided thing so you should learn to accept that what we,as supporters say/post are just as valid as yours and that you can't have it all your own way.
I personally don't leap up and down with any " excitement ".How can you when there has been 5 murders ? I just imagine if it had been my own family.
EVERYTHING is based on " myths " until we get the TRUE recollection behind those hidden documents and files,etc. At least I know of one person who was involved in the harrowing case,do you ?
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But you haven't cleaned up have you even though you are on here 24/7 If you believe this to be true then you too would be on here 24/7
Where's a plausible explanation for special branch destroying evidence Are you referring to the cannabis plants?
Why would an intelligent girl like Julie Mugford not go to the police immediately after the murders Why are you defending a nonce?
How extraordinary how Ewen smith get head hunted by the CCRC just as he was working on the JB case Coinsidence
Why did the CCRC decide to close down the application from JB just as Simon McKay a high profile solicitor had been instructed Because they learned things about Bamber that they are not allowed to repeat
Why have the defence never been allowed to see witness statements from when the case was a suicide and not a murder Who says they haven't?
What exactly have you closed down and exactly how many people on this forum believe you have closed anything down I think Caroline closes lots down. She clearly has a good grasp of the case and has indeed done her homework
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Mike has never changed his stance and there is no new evidence available to give him a reason to change his stance
Just because he has never changed his stance doesn't mean he won't ever change his stance. If he were to change stance I am in no doubt he will gainer a lot a support from a lot of people..
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It's already been proven in a court of law and indeed on this forum that Jeremy Bamber is guilty.
Where? ::)
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Where? ::)
When you are ready to acknowledge it, it's all there David, including in the ramblings of a mad womenas you perceive it.
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Depends what is referred to as 'immediately' with Julie. A month is quite quickly. Considering she was Bamber's girlfriend and he would have spent effort discouraging Julie from doing anything.
There are also lots of reasons why Julie waited a month. Thread created.
Chris Huhne's wife waited years before going to the police about his crime.
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She was also charged with withholding information and so received her sentence too.
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I'd love to have seen the looks on those officers faces as they asked JM for anything about her that they should know before making her a prosecution witness. Afterall,she was ALL EP had to help them secure a conviction. Shame on them all.
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I'd love to have seen the looks on those officers faces as they asked JM for anything about her that they should know before making her a prosecution witness. Afterall,she was ALL EP had to help them secure a conviction. Shame on them all.
Turning Queens evidence isn't rare. At least she confessed to her wrong doings.
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It's already been proven in a court of law and indeed on this forum that Jeremy Bamber is guilty.
There was no call from Nevill. The facts are then when you are ready to see them Roch.
Ainsley didn't have any crucial evidence destroyed. It was Bamber who had crucial evidence destroyed; including the poor little dog. He knew exactly what he was doing when he agreed to having the carpets incinerated and that of his family members. >:( :(
People like Jeremy Bamber are clogging up the criminal justice system and in so doing are allowing genuinely innocent men and women to suffer because of their greed, omnipotence and psychopathy.
The knock on effect of the criminal behaviours of men like Bamber is far reaching Roch.
It's already been proven in a court of law and indeed on this forum that Jeremy Bamber is guilty.
As exactly it was proven in a court of law that the Guildford four and Birmingham six were guilty
By your reason these people should still all locked up
How disgracefull
It has certainly not been proved on this forum Jeremy is guilty
It has certainly NOT been proved that Neville did not make a phone call
Caroline would you like to list the items special branch destroyed
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Stop focusing on me and focus on the case. The reason you are no further forward and haven't yet figured out Bamber to be guilty is because you are too wrapped up in everyone else; like me for example. Put your personal differences to one side and look at what is staring you in the face.
You are the very last person I would take advice from
This is a forum and I will post when you write absolute rubbish
The SH case must have had a catastrophic affect on prisoners fighting to have their convictions overturned
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Turning Queens evidence isn't rare. At least she confessed to her wrong doings.
She didn't really have a choice Steph,or how would it have looked if JB had piped up about her, leaving everyone open-mouthed because of not knowing ?
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She didn't really have a choice Steph,or how would it have looked if JB had piped up about her, leaving everyone open-mouthed because of not knowing ?
But what could he have said lookout?
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When you are ready to acknowledge it, it's all there David, including in the ramblings of a mad womenas you perceive it.
Where is it? Show me ::)
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So then you are relying on the timings given by the police? yes, the timings in the logs which were recorded contemporaneously. I have learned from personal experience that in real time, cops don't have the opportunity to fabricate evidence, unless they seek to withhold or conceal the contents of these logs. So yes, I am relying on the timed events of the logs which as I say are details recorded in real time. Set against this, are the contents of police witness statements and the mindset of the police at the time they make their witness statements... The same police you say stitched Bamber up? yes, same cops that were involved in the framing if Jeremy Bamber, correct...
Come on Mike! Stop doing this. There is nothing for me to stop doing, and everything for me to continue exposing the full extent of the corruption in this case. I cannot stand idly by and let an innocent person rot in prison for something he had not physically done. Essex police shot Sheila, they tampered with the silencer evidence, and they tampered with one of the two bullets recovered from Sheila's body. We also now know that Sheila's blood, and the red paint from the kitchen aga, were not found inside or upon the same silencer. Jeremy Bamber has not influenced me one little bit in reaching these conclusions, I have arrived at these conclusions using my own independent talent. Jeremy did not shoot his sister dead in the main bedroom, or stage her body with the rifle from the box room window, or anywhere else. But police did shoot her. They are responsible for killing her, and they are responsible for why the police message log version of the events does not match up with the police witness statement version of the events. Two bodies downstairs, with three bodies upstairs, does not sit well with the witness statement version which only has one body downstairs, four bodies upstairs. I know where my money lies if I were a gambling man... You are better than people like Jeremy Bamber!
Jeremy had access to the police logs prior to his trial. Why are you making excuses?No, he did not have access to these logs prior to his trial commencing - I should know this to be true because I was involved in trying to get some of the latest material released, along with other people who were part of our campaign...
It was Jeremy who let Jeremy down. No one else. He didn't let himself down, he didn't have a clue about what had really happened. These are traits of an innocent person. If he had known what we all now know, he would have used all this new material to support his defence during his trial, but he didn't...
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Depends what is referred to as 'immediately' with Julie. A month is quite quickly. Considering she was Bamber's girlfriend and he would have spent effort discouraging Julie from doing anything.
There are also lots of reasons why Julie waited a month. Thread created.
Chris Huhne's wife waited years before going to the police about his crime.
You are joking
I am talking about the moment JB 'said' I should have been an actor
She has lied and lied on numerous occasions
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Maybe it will be you who finally goes to the press with Bamber's guilt, when you realise you have been played?
Jeremy has never asked me for anything and I am far to intelligent to get played
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But what could he have said lookout?
He could have opened up knowing what he knew about JM's past antics in which the prosecution would have been ill-prepared.
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Jeremy has never asked me for anything and I am far to intelligent to get played
;D ;D okay ;D ;D
Ha ha. You are one funny character that's for sure.
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He could have opened up knowing what he knew about JM's past antics in which the prosecution would have been ill-prepared.
I don't follow?
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You are joking
I am talking about the moment JB 'said' I should have been an actor
She has lied and lied on numerous occasions
You would make a good actor Jackie.
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So what were/are the affects on other prisoners?
List them
I don't have to list them you are fully aware that often prisoners need financial help from supporter
Did you ever ask anyone to donate money for SH?
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I don't follow?
If EP hadn't asked JM if there was anything in her background that they should know about ( before making her a witness for the prosecution ) and say for instance that JM hadn't told them,then in court they'd have looked a bit sick if JB had rattled off what JM had done.
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I don't have to list them you are fully aware that often prisoners need financial help from supporter
Did you ever ask anyone to donate money for SH?
Generally speaking I foolishly supported SH financially single handedly. I did ask for donations. One time before he confessed and then after he died.
I spoke to all of those who donated following his confession, accept one.
No one donated to his funeral. I paid for it myself and with help from the prison.
I would advise anyone supporting someone in prison to learn of the genuine needs of a prisoner. I learned that all the money I sent SH he squandered and hadn't needed.
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I don't have to list them you are fully aware that often prisoners need financial help from supporter
Did you ever ask anyone to donate money for SH?
Now forget the obsession with money, how did SH's confession affect other prisoners?
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But you haven't cleaned up have you even though you are on here 24/7
Where's a plausible explanation for special branch destroying evidence
Why would an intelligent girl like Julie Mugford not go to the police immediately after the murders
How extraordinary how Ewen smith get head hunted by the CCRC just as he was working on the JB case
Why did the CCRC decide to close down the application from JB just as Simon McKay a high profile solicitor had been instructed
Why have the defence never been allowed to see witness statements from when the case was a suicide and not a murder
What exactly have you closed down and exactly how many people on this forum believe you have closed anything down
I thought Ewen Smith didn't join the CCRC till 2006? Didn't Bamber sack him a lot earlier? How come you say he was headhunted just as he was working on the Bamber case? You would have thought if Ewan thought Bamber innocent he would push for a referral.
Did Bamber sack Simon McKay or vice versa? None of his ex lawyers seem to get involved with him after they have worked for him, Simon doesn't seem to tweet about him now? I thought they allowed extra time for Bamber to put something together when Simon was acting for him?
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If EP hadn't asked JM if there was anything in her background that they should know about ( before making her a witness for the prosecution ) and say for instance that JM hadn't told them,then in court they'd have looked a bit sick if JB had rattled off what JM had done.
I'm still not with you lookout?
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I'm still not with you lookout?
As a witness for the prosecution ( JM ) what if she hadn't admitted anything about her past ? How would it have then looked in court if JB started rattling off what she'd been up to,without anyone knowing.
JM being the main one who EP were relying on.
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As a witness for the prosecution ( JM ) what if she hadn't admitted anything about her past ? How would it have then looked in court if JB started rattling off what she'd been up to,without anyone knowing.
JM being the main one who EP were relying on.
But she wasn't accused of murder and it's unlikely Bamber would have thrown her under the bus; he needed to save his own skin.
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But she wasn't accused of murder.
I know,but if nobody had known about her background,her case would have floundered somewhat if JB had " told tales " in court,on the stand, about what she'd been up to.
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Generally speaking I foolishly supported SH financially single handedly. I did ask for donations. One time before he confessed and then after he died.
I spoke to all of those who donated following his confession, accept one.
No one donated to his funeral. I paid for it myself and with help from the prison.
I would advise anyone supporting someone in prison to learn of the genuine needs of a prisoner. I learned that all the money I sent SH he squandered and hadn't needed.
When it was highly publicised SH confessed it must have had an impart on the general public who were or thinking of supporting MOJ case financially
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I thought Ewen Smith didn't join the CCRC till 2006? Didn't Bamber sack him a lot earlier? How come you say he was headhunted just as he was working on the Bamber case? You would have thought if Ewan thought Bamber innocent he would push for a referral.
Did Bamber sack Simon McKay or vice versa? None of his ex lawyers seem to get involved with him after they have worked for him, Simon doesn't seem to tweet about him now? I thought they allowed extra time for Bamber to put something together when Simon was acting for him?
Ewen left JB in the lurch when he stopped working on the JB case
I do not believe ES changed his stance. But if there has been a cover up this could make sense headhunting ES stopping progress in the case
I believe it was a mutual decision regarding Simon. It is a fact SM had problems working with the OCT
The closing date for submissions was given very suddenly just after Simon McKay was instructing meaning vital gun testing could not be completed
I doubt SM would continue to tweet about the case after harrassment from the MOJ site
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Why financially? Is that how you view MOJ's?
What about all the other factors or have you yet to get past the money aspect?
From experience, the public in general aren't that interested in alleged MOJ's and they certainly don't knowingly finance such cases very often.
Financially and emotionally
I believe there is a new series coming up regarding moj cases
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I am not obsessed with money but you were asking for monetary donations for SH when you did not know if he was innocent
I wrongly believed he was innocent, ergo others were responsible. I have already explained re donations.
Since my experience I do not believe prisoners wages should be enhanced by outside donations. Prisoners should learn to be self sufficient.
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Financially and emotionally
I believe there is a new series coming up regarding moj cases
What do you mean by emotionally? How has SH confession affected other prisoners emotionally?
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I believe there is a new series coming up regarding moj cases
And? What's your point? It won't free Bamber.
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Roch, two years ago Jeremy told me he had almost ALL of the PII documents and pictures but every week we hear more and more about none disclosure or thugs still hidden. I could say anything existed but that the police were hiding it, it doesn't mean it's true and you can't disclose what you don't have.
Then why say that these documents are referred to in other recently found docs and go to the trouble of writing to the Justice secretary asking for them.
surely if we see everything including all docs relating to when it was classed as suicide murder we would have a uh better understanding of what really happened and the sequence of events etc
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Then why say that these documents are referred to in other recently found docs and go to the trouble of writing to the Justice secretary asking for them.
surely if we see everything including all docs relating to when it was classed as suicide murder we would have a uh better understanding of what really happened and the sequence of events etc
That's my argument too.
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Then why say that these documents are referred to in other recently found docs and go to the trouble of writing to the Justice secretary asking for them.
surely if we see everything including all docs relating to when it was classed as suicide murder we would have a uh better understanding of what really happened and the sequence of events etc
Jeremy Bamber is on a fishing expedition, no more no less. He is merely attempting to fill up his time, in the process conning lots of people. The campaign team will get no where as they have proved they do not have a basic grasp of the facts of the case.
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I thought Ewen Smith didn't join the CCRC till 2006? Didn't Bamber sack him a lot earlier? How come you say he was headhunted just as he was working on the Bamber case? You would have thought if Ewan thought Bamber innocent he would push for a referral.
Did Bamber sack Simon McKay or vice versa? None of his ex lawyers seem to get involved with him after they have worked for him, Simon doesn't seem to tweet about him now? I thought they allowed extra time for Bamber to put something together when Simon was acting for him?
Ewen Smith applied to join the CCRC in 2004, this was at a time when he went out of his way to speak to the police surgeon, Dr 'Craig and found out that Sheila was on the bed at 8.44am in the main bedroom and that by that stage, Sheila had only been shot once. Ewen also had a meeting with one of the SOCO's involved in the investigation with a Christian name 'David' who confirmed to him the existence of the second silencer, which David said had been kept by 'Taff' Jones on his desk in his office at Witham police station for a long time, and was being used as a paperweight by 'Taff'Jones, until PC Which came along and took possession of it, and after attaching it to the barrel of the gun, how PC Whiddon had arranged for the said silencer to be forwarded to the lab to be examined. Seems involvement with Jeremy's case ended when Giovani De Stefano stepped forward to take on the mantle as Jeremy's legal representative. I doubt think Jeremy appreciated a lot of the work Seen did on his behalf behind the scenes, and the fact that I was getting access to material to do with his case, and information which Jeremy felt he had no control over. In point of fact, this came to a head when Ewen managed to get hold of all the previously undisclosed crime scene photographs contained in what turned out to be 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM' purporting to contain all 581 photographs.Prior to this arrangement which Ewen had with the CCRC over access to this unseen photographic evidence the defence had only been given access to the 223 photographs contained in what was named 'THE MASTER COPY ALBUM'...
It was whilst I was visiting Ewens Birmingham office in 2004, that I managed to 'borrow the photograph' showing Sheila's body on the bed, minus the rifle, with a solitary bullet wound in her throat. I thought I was doing Jeremy a massive favour by taking the said photograph and posting it into him at HMP Full Sutton, under the guise of 'Rule 37a' terms, but it ended up causing an error one amount of trouble for Jeremy, and myself. It also had the effect of hampering Jeremy's communication with Giovani, who had started to act as Jeremy's legal representative unbeknown to me by that stage. The photograph of Sheila on the bed minus the rifle and with only one bullet wound to her throat really does exist. She was laid on top of the bed towards the left hand side as viewed from the foot of the bed. There was no triangular bloodstained on the right hand shoulder side of her light blue nightdress, and by that stage there wasn't the bloodied fingermarks on the front lower side of the nightdress, the hem of which had been raised up to the top of her thighs. You could see that she wasn't wearing any underwear. The photographer who had taken the picture had been stood at the foot of the bed, and was obviously taken before the second shot had been inflicted which effectively ended her life on this earth. I believe that 'DC Oakey' (SOCO) took this photograph of Sheila on the bed, and another one showing the barrel of the rifle resting against the left hand side of Sheila's neck after she had sustained the second shot. Essex police have sought to extract DC Oakey from being present at the scene on that first morning, because of his association with the photograph or photographs he took of Sheila on the bed...
The photograph I borrowed, was posted to Jeremy at HMP Full Sutton. I spoke to Jeremy on the phone about the said photograph on the evening I acquired it. I told him I had already posted it to him along with an explanation of how I had come by it, and what it depicted. Quite naturally Jeremy was excited to hear about the discovery of the said photograph. A couple of days later I received a telephone call from Jeremy in the middle of the afternoon. I usually only got calls from him during the evening's. He was angry that I had posted the photograph into him under the 'Rule 37a' arrangement, and told me that prison security had intercepted it, and confiscated it. He was not allowed to see it's contents, and he was banned from using that privilege thereafter..
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Then why say that these documents are referred to in other recently found docs and go to the trouble of writing to the Justice secretary asking for them.
surely if we see everything including all docs relating to when it was classed as suicide murder we would have a uh better understanding of what really happened and the sequence of events etc
I didn't say they didn't believe this stuff existed - that doesn't mean it does.
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The timeline the CT have produced has Bamber calling the police at 3.36am and then Julie at 3.38am. Talk about a quick 2 minute conversation with the police.
This could only be because the police had ready received a call from Nevill so knew all the details. But then they would have told Bamber this on the phone & just told him to meet him at WHF.
In that case I am surprised Bamber never brought up Nevill's call for 25 years.
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When Bamber testified he said his call to Chelmsford police lasted 5 minutes.
I suspect it was longer. Wasn't he put on hold for a long time ?
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When Bamber testified he said his call to Chelmsford police lasted 5 minutes.
And it took him 10 minutes to find the number
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The Campaign Team time line ignores the witness statements of Julie and her 4 flatmates.
Nothing wrong with ignoring a few witness statements now and again. Especially if they don't support you're version of events.
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The Campaign Team time line ignores the witness statements of Julie and her 4 flatmates.
Nothing wrong with ignoring a few witness statements now and again. Especially if they don't support you're version.
And especially if you are wanting to be taken seriously and meet with the justice secretary.
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The timeline the CT have produced has Bamber calling the police at 3.36am and then Julie at 3.38am. Talk about a quick 2 minute conversation with the police. Jeremy's call to Julie took place at 3.30am, with his two calls to the police either side, namely his unanswered call to Witham police station, and his answered call to Chelmsford police station. The 3.38am claim doesn't fit the known sequence of events, and general periods over which calls lasted, or took place...
This could only be because the police had ready received a call from Nevill so knew all the details. yes, they already had sufficient information from Neville's 3.26am call by 3.36am when Jeremy called, to deploy the occupants of CA07 and CA05 to the scene at 3.35am, and 3.36am, without taking any information at all from Jeremy in his distress call at 3.36am until five minutes later (3.41am) by which time the occupants of CA07 and CA05 were already 6 and 5 minutes into their journey to the incident. Therefore, we now know that somebody other than Jeremy had provided police with details of a serious disturbance taking place at whf by 3.26am, something which Jeremy Bamber had no opportunity to input into until at the very earliest 3.41am - Now, there's food for thought!!! But then they would have told Bamber this on the phone not before 3.41am, though, eh...& just told him to meet him at WHF. Well, in a round about way, that's what happenned, isn't it?
In that case I am surprised Bamber never brought up Nevill's call for 25 years. that's easy to explain, the prosecution conned everyone, including Bamber and those representing him, that if Sheila had got the possession of one of Neville's guns, that Neville hadn't phoned the police. They withheld the two records of both the 3.26am, and the 3.36am calls, behind the lie introduced by West / Bonnet who sought to merge both timed calls as reference to only one call. It's therefore not surprising that Jeremy took no action for over 25 years, he could have done with doing something about it during his trial, but how could he if he did not know anything at all about it?
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The official site have got the sequence wrong, the rifle was definitely photographed resting at the bedroom window in photograph number 23, prior to the same rifle being photographed with Sheila's body as in photograph numbers, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33, and here is the documentary evidence proving it:-
Mike I'm not sure how to interpret the chart you have shown, as I cannot see which photos come after the Sheila Caffell photos.
However the photo which shows all the stuff at the window (including the rifle), in my opinion comes after the photos of Sheila with the rifle. The impression I get is that the police have stripped bedding and moved items from one end of the room to the window end of the room. Surely, it makes sense for this to have occurred after Sheila was photographed? The alternative would be that there was stuff piled up near the window which was then removed prior to Sheila being photographed? This seems less plausible.
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You've done a good job with this timeline Roch. It was a long time coming. Those clips are difficult to access unless you register an account and even then it's got to be affiliated to some educational purpose.
What clips are you referring to? The timeline is in an article by author Ben Johnson (BenW_Johnson on twitter), but he doesn't state where he got all the details from, and some are inaccurate.
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What clips are you referring to? The timeline is in an article by author Ben Johnson (BenW_Johnson on twitter), but he doesn't state where he got all the details from, and some are inaccurate.
I was referring mainly to the ITN clips of the case.
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I doubt that anything like as many as 80 times were mentioned in ITN clips relating to the case.
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What clips are you referring to? The timeline is in an article by author Ben Johnson (BenW_Johnson on twitter), but he doesn't state where he got all the details from, and some are inaccurate.
I think Steve just made a mistake.
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I think Steve just made a mistake.
Probably tired. He'd been working all day too,so allowances are made ?
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I'm not sure what all this is alluding to. I was only mentioning that court clips of the Bamber case are hard to come by.
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I'm not sure what all this is alluding to. I was only mentioning that court clips of the Bamber case are hard to come by.
Just Reader being pedantic Steve, it was an obvious mistake.
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What clips are you referring to?
ITN Source clips. Trial and appeal era footage. Just Google ITN Source Jeremy Bamber Leuchars
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ITN Source clips. Trial and appeal era footage. Just Google ITN Source Jeremy Bamber Leuchars
There's one here for starters. http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1986/10/15/AS151086010/?s=jeremy+bamber&st=0&pn=1
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..and I hope the Jeremy-is-innocent crew take time to reflect on this one: http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1986/10/28/AS281086004/?s=jeremy+bamber&st=0&pn=1
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Oh Lord,this old laptop won't load---------it needs a handle attaching to it,to crank it.
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01 * 6 Aug 18:00-18:39 Approx - Jeremy finishes work at White
House Farm where there is a family meal ongoing. A discussion is taking place
between June, Nevill and Sheila about what help Sheila needs.
The use of fostering again is a central theme.
02 * 21:30 - Jeremy leaves WHF and returns to his nearby
Goldhanger home, about three miles away.
03 * 21:30 - Back at WHF Barbara Wilson, Farm Secretary,
telephones and speaks to Nevill Bamber; claiming he was "short"
with her. She was left with the impression her call had interrupted
an argument.
04 * 21:50-22:00 - Jeremy makes a telephone call to Julie at her home.
Unbeknown to Jeremy, Julie has been smoking marijuana and she
is drowsy.
05 * 22:00 - Pamela Boutflour, June’s sister, telephones White House
Farm and speaks to both June and Sheila. Pam stated that Sheila
just gave “yes and no” replies to her questions and abruptly handed
the phone back to June. June explained to Pam that she was “very
worried about Sheila and that she would like me to see her and
form an opinion about her health.” From the discussion with June,
Pam reached the conclusion that Sheila was “acting oddly”
06 * 23:00 Approx - Having watched television, Jeremy goes to bed.
07 * 7 Aug 03:15 Approx - Nevill telephones his son, Jeremy, stating
his sister Sheila had "gone crazy" and “had the gun." He also said
“Please come over.” The phone then went dead. It had either been
unplugged or left off the hook.
08 * 03:20 Approx - Jeremy then makes several attempts to call
Nevill back using 'redial' and got the engaged tone. Unbeknown to
Jeremy this was because Nevill had realised that he needed police
assistance with Sheila.
09 * 03:20 - Nevill telephones police stating that his daughter, Sheila,
had "got hold” of one of his guns. The call is noted and titled
"daughter gone berserk." Nevill referred to Sheila's age as 26 years.
10 * 03:26 - PC West telephones Malcolm Bonnett “On the internal
police line” to relay the call he has just received from Nevill
Bamber.
11 * 03:30 Approx - PC Saxby receives a radio message, stating he
should attend at White House Farm.
12 * 03:35 - Police vehicle CA7 is dispatched to WHF.
13 * 03:36 - PC West told DCI Dickinson in November 1986, that he
called Malcolm Bonnett (discussing a call from Jeremy to Police
about the WHF incident) at this time. However, in his 16th
September statement he claims to have not actually received
Jeremy Bamber’s call until 3:36. PC West also claimed in his 9th
of September statement that Jeremy called him at 3:26. Jeremy's
call to the police refers to Sheila's age at 27 - which was accurate.
14 * 03:36 - PC Norcup and PC Cracknell are dispatched in police
vehicle CA5.
16 * 03:36 - Police vehicle CA05 is dispatched to WHF, according
to PC West’s Log.
17 * 03:38 - Police suggest to Jeremy he should meet them at WHF
and, before doing so, he telephones Julie. The time of this call is
strongly contested by six different people. The time of the call
gets earlier in each witness statement made by prosecution
witnesses, some claimed as early as 2:59. Under cross-examination
most of the witnesses said the call could well have been closer to
3:30. The variance moots the point and suggests the possibility that
other house members might have smoked marijuana with Julie that
evening.
18 * 03:42 - Jeremy leaves his cottage and makes his way to White
House Farm.
19 * 03:48 - Vehicle CA07 arrives at the end of Pages Lane at the
junction with Tollesbury Road. Jeremy then arrives at the same
location and is, from this time onward, in the company of police.
20 * 03:49 - Officers Bews and Myall along with Jeremy exit their
cars at the junction of Tollesbury Road and have a short discussion,
after which a decision is made by police to drive further down the
lane and park by the farm cottages.
21 * 03:50 - PC Batchelor is attributed as writing a log at the scene
from 03:50 onwards but he didn’t arrive at the scene until 04:25am.
22 * 03:55 - Officers Bews, Myall and Jeremy begin a 'perimeter
check' of the farmhouse, during which PC Myall indicates he can
see "movement" in an upstairs window. A Tactical Firearms Unit
(TFU) is contacted. The Major Incident Report at the scene goes
as far as to list what was seen as an 'Unidentified male.' Bews
makes a situation report to HQ over the radio.
23 * 04:00 - PC Saxby told the Dickinson Enquiry that he started
keeping a log at this time. In addition, he also states that he started
another, separate log which detailed who arrived and who left
White House Farm. This log has never been disclosed.
24 * 04:09 - Police report at this time that there are "no signs of life"
within the house - keep in mind that at this time that police noted:
"...all lights on in premises." This report was made as a result of PS
Bews making a second recce of the house. He told the Dickinson
Enquiry that he may have gone back a third time.
25 * 04:22 - PC Norcup and PC Cracknell arrive at the Farm in car
CA5.
26 * 04:23 - PC Batchelor and PC Lay arrive at the Farm in car CA6.
27 * 04:58 - The Firearms Unit (TFU) arrives at WHF along with a
dog unit; police vehicles QK26, QZO5, and QK50. The vehicles
contained: QK26 – PC Adams and 5 TFU Officers QK50 –
PC Mackintosh - QK05 – Dog Unit-PC Mercer.
28 * 05:25 - The Firearms team are recorded as being "in conversation
with a person from inside the farm." Jeremy is asked at this time
what Sheila would like to talk about as police arranged to engage
her in conversation.
29 * 05:29 - Police logs note that a "challenge to persons inside the
house [was] met with no response."
30 05:42 - A relief radio operator, PC Nicholas Milbank, takes over
from Malcolm Bonnett. PC Milbank didn’t make a statement in
1985 and it wasn’t until he was interviewed on 18.08.2002. that his
identity was revealed to the Defence. He has never disclosed what
he heard from inside White House Farm over the open telephone
line. The open line was also being recorded yet neither this recording
nor PC Milbank’s testimony is made known to the Jury and
has never been disclosed to the Defence
31 * 05:45 - PC West records that GPO (Post Office) are asked to
check the phone line at White House Farm. By 1985 this would
have actually been tasked to British Telecom.
32 * 05:47 - PC West is informed that the "phone at the scene [is]
engaged." However more than two hours prior at 03.42, West had
been told: "phone had been left off the hook."
33 * 05:50 - PC Myall starts a log but it has been disclosed and
inaccurately attributed to PC Saxby. Myall told Dickinson that he
drove car CA7 into the farmyard and began Log 12.
34 * 06:00 - Paramedics called. Ambulance 051 and 2 crew are
dispatched.
35 * 06:09 - Emergency service operators, as well as GPO/BT
operators now monitor the telephone line to White House Farm.
Jean Rowe a BT operator continues to monitor the phone
intermittently. This was being recorded onto tape but the tapes
have never been disclosed.
36 * 06:19 - PC Chaplin and PC Dixon arrive at White House Farm
in car CG32.
37 * 06:20 - Further paramedics called to the scene. Ambulance 070
and 2 crew are dispatched.
38 * 06:42 - PC Hall and PC Manners arrive at the scene in van QK23.
Also Inspector Montgomery and five TFU officers.
39 * 06:44 - Chief Inspector Clark arrives in car CG/10.
40 * 06:45 - APS Manners states that PC Collins looked into the
kitchen through the window before they broke into the house and
“reported seeing what he thought was the body of a female just
inside the kitchen door,” but apparently Nevill Bamber was found
by the Aga cooker.
41 * 07:00 - Curtains in Master Bedroom recorded as Closed. Lights
are recorded as being off in the master bedroom.
42 * 07:00 approx. - Ch. /Insp. Gibbons and PC Panting arrive at the
scene.
43 * 07:02 - A/PS Moule and five more TFU Officers arrive at the
scene in transit vehicle QK24. Thirty-two Police Officers and four
paramedics are already at the scene.
44 * 07:10 Approx - PC Brown sees a rifle in the window of the 'box'
room, adjacent to the master bedroom between 7:00am and
9:00am.
45 * 07:15 - Curtains in the Master Bedroom now recorded as open,
with the light turned on.
46 * 07:15 - CSI Harris and PC Reed arrive at the Farm in car CA02.
47 * 07:20 - Further Paramedics called to the scene (approximate).
48 * 07:30 - Paramedics called to relieve one of the earlier crews. In
all 9 arrive at the scene.
49 * 07:30 - WPC Jeapes sees a rifle in the window of the 'box' room,
adjacent to the master bedroom between 7:30am and 9:00am. She
is located independently from PC Brown. There are no photographs
taken of this room from inside or outside the house.
50 * 07:34 - Police, using “stealth” tactics, enter the farmhouse by
smashing down a door with a sledgehammer. PC Rozga states: "I
looked just around the door and saw [an] overturned chair [and]
against the wall was the body of a male." Two different versions
of his statement exist to omit the re-positioning of Nevill Bamber’s
body.
51 * 07:34 - Having entered the house via the kitchen, police radio
through the discovery of one dead male and one dead female.
These would have been the bodies of Sheila and Nevill. The raid
team wore open microphones and were recorded. The tapes or
transcripts have never been disclosed.
52 * 07:36 - Reports made of “movement and voices” being heard by
police over the open telephone line as police broke in.
53 * 07:37 - One of the first raid officers into the house, PC Hall says,
“I immediately heard a noise upstairs and began to challenge up the
stairs I was covering, I was calling to Sheila Bamber to make her
whereabouts known to me.” At the 2002 Appeal the same officer
stated that the raid team operated using stealth tactics in silence
using hand signals. PC Rozga added: "I then heard someone from
the kitchen area warning another person not to tread in blood."
54 * 07:37 - After other officers entered the house the scene would
appear to have been altered because Nevill was reported to have
been near the Aga cooker seated precariously on the back of an
overturned chair.
55 * 07.38 - Another Essex Police communication, from Inspector
Norman, notes the discovery of "one dead male and one dead
female... on entry to premises." The two bodies could only have
been those of Nevill and Sheila given it is undisputed that June
and the twins were found upstairs.
56 * 07:47 - The police give an order for the recording of the open
telephone line at White House Farm - being monitored by
emergency services - to be halted.
57 * 07:48 - Police request a surgeon to attend the scene to examine
two bodies, suggesting again that two bodies (Sheila and Nevill)
were found downstairs.
58 * 07:55 - Police finally ‘officially’ search the upstairs of WHF.
The ambulance Commander, Mr Nottage arrived at the scene.
59 * 08:00 - After 8:00am, two firearms officers say in statements
ammunition and bandoliers were on the staircase leading from the
kitchen to the box room. Neither this room, the staircase, the
ammunition or bandoliers are photographed.
60 * 08:10 - After a “thorough” search of the house, Police record
the discovery of “three further bodies” These would have been the
bodies of June, Nicholas and Daniel. The finding of "three further
bodies" supports the argument that two bodies (Nevill and Sheila)
were found downstairs, as it is undisputed that five persons in total
had died.
61 * 08:10 approx. - PC Manners records that he spent considerable
time with the body of June Bamber, who was found with her feet
to the door. Curiously, the crime scene photos picture her with her
head against the door.
62 * 08:25 - Dr Craig arrives.
63 * 08:40 - PC Chaplin starts keeping two logs. One of these is
recording who went in and out of the back door at WHF. This is
separate to the log noted at 04:00am in relation to Saxby.
PC Shoulders keeps a log at the front door of the house recording
who enters and leaves. Neither log has been disclosed.
64 * 08:45 - Dr Craig, CI Gibbons and CSI Harris all state Sheila has
one gunshot wound.
65 * 08:45 - PC Wright, Coroner's officer arrives.
66 * 08:51 - DI Cook and DC Bird arrive in car QP03.
67 * 09:00 - Van QK22 arrives with six further TFU officers plus a
sergeant to “keep away” members of the press. There were already
seventy Police Officers at the scene. It is odd that they needed
extra Firearms Officers to attend after the house had been searched.
68 * 09:14 - DCI Jones and DC Clarke arrive in CID car.
69 * 09:16 - DI Miller and DS Jones arrive in CID car.
70 * 09:16 - 'Mystery' SOC Officer DC Henderson arrives at the scene
with DS Davidson. This was later changed to DC Hammersley -
DC Henderson never makes a statement about his attendance at the
scene.
71 * 9:30 - DI Miller describes Sheila as having been found with the
rifle “by her right side,” and not with the rifle across her body, as
it is seen in crime scene photographs taken after 10:00am
72 * 09:56 - At this time PC Chaplin ceases keeping his record,
stating: “I was instructed by someone (don’t know who) to stop
recording who was entering the house, as officers were by then
using two entrances and it was impossible for me to record
correctly who was coming and going.” The lists which kept up to
date times of those who entered the house have not been disclosed.
PC Bird requests the gun resting on Sheila to be made safe.
73 * 10:00 - Photographing the scene commences in the kitchen. No
explanation has ever been given as to why SOC officers were made
to wait 44 minutes from the time of their arrival at 09:16 before
being allowed into the house.
74 * 10:20 - A photograph shows Sheila and June, with the bedside
clock confirming the time.
75 * 10:20 - Seven crime scene photographs show Sheila’s body
with her hand and the gun in different positions. In one, the gun
is on Sheila’s body but another, taken just minutes later, (as the
photographer moved down the stairs) shows the gun resting in
the window when it should have still been on Sheila’s body until
11:10 according to DI Cook.
76 * 10:40 - Two more teams of Firearms officers arrive in two
vehicles at the scene for training. DCI Dickinson notes in his 1986
investigation that officers were trained at the scene.
77 * 10:50 - Photographing the scene finishes and the bodies are
placed into bags. They await removal from the scene for the post
mortem’s to be carried out.
78 * 11:10 - 'Officially', the rifle was moved from Sheila for the first
time and made safe. PC Bird, the photographer, appears to forget
to take photographs of five of the rooms in the house including
those with firearms present inside.
79 * 14:15 -PC Chaplin’s second log finishes.
80 * 15:50 - The log added to by the 'relief' radio operator from 05:42
comes to an end. PC Shoulders takes over the log at the scene but
the radio operator up until 15:50, PC Milbank never makes a
statement for Jeremy's trial - it was simply assumed that Malcolm
Bonnett monitored the radio throughout the incident. He did not
inform the Jury that he went off duty at 05:40 that morning.
Point 22 Roch, I think you have always been under the impression that the tactical fire arms unit was called earlier than when Bews made the request? If you read Adams report he tells you, at 4.00am he was on operation (plain clothes) in Colchester when he heard radio talk of a possible fire arms incident at Tolleshunt Darcy, so he contacts HQ to tell her that they were a fire arms unit and were available. He goes on to say after that he didn't hear anything for a while. So at this point no request had been made for Tactical fire arms team to be deployed. It was only when Bews made the request a little while later that they was deployed, Adams then had to remind the operator they would have to return back to HQ to draw weapons?
I don't even think the dog unit was deployed, all that happened was a dog handler who was at HQ OFFERED to direct them to the scene, so in a nutshell no dog unit was sent for, yes one dog handler went but wasn't requested.
It will not let me paste PS Adams COLP report for some reason?
So how I read it, because of radio talk (what Bamber had said about Sheila going crazy she has the gun, in his phone call) PS Adams hears this over the radio, offers his services and waits for the request to attend the scene, so it was a while after 4.00am that the request actually went out, this would have been when Bews had made the assessment and feed from Bamber? Would they have made a request for firearms if they had seen someone in the house at this early stage? I don't think they would, i they would have investigated it further.
It's possible that the 3.55/ 4.00am was used as a reference point to when they first heard the radio chatter?
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Point 22 Roch, I think you have always been under the impression that the tactical fire arms unit was called earlier than when Bews made the request? If you read Adams report he tells you, at 4.00am he was on operation (plain clothes) in Colchester when he heard radio talk of a possible fire arms incident at Tolleshunt Darcy, so he contacts HQ to tell her that they were a fire arms unit and were available. He goes on to say after that he didn't hear anything for a while. So at this point no request had been made for Tactical fire arms team to be deployed. It was only when Bews made the request a little while later that they was deployed, Adams then had to remind the operator they would have to return back to HQ to draw weapons?
I don't even think the dog unit was deployed, all that happened was a dog handler who was at HQ OFFERED to direct them to the scene, so in a nutshell no dog unit was sent for, yes one dog handler went but wasn't requested.
It will not let me paste PS Adams COLP report for some reason?
So how I read it, because of radio talk (what Bamber had said about Sheila going crazy she has the gun, in his phone call) PS Adams hears this over the radio, offers his services and waits for the request to attend the scene, so it was a while after 4.00am that the request actually went out, this would have been when Bews had made the assessment and feed from Bamber? Would they have made a request for firearms if they had seen someone in the house at this early stage? I don't think they would, i they would have investigated it further.
It's possible that the 3.55/ 4.00am was used as a reference point to when they first heard the radio chatter?
Great post Justice!
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Point 22 Roch, I think you have always been under the impression that the tactical fire arms unit was called earlier than when Bews made the request? If you read Adams report he tells you, at 4.00am he was on operation (plain clothes) in Colchester when he heard radio talk of a possible fire arms incident at Tolleshunt Darcy, so he contacts HQ to tell her that they were a fire arms unit and were available. He goes on to say after that he didn't hear anything for a while. So at this point no request had been made for Tactical fire arms team to be deployed. It was only when Bews made the request a little while later that they was deployed, Adams then had to remind the operator they would have to return back to HQ to draw weapons?
I don't even think the dog unit was deployed, all that happened was a dog handler who was at HQ OFFERED to direct them to the scene, so in a nutshell no dog unit was sent for, yes one dog handler went but wasn't requested.
It will not let me paste PS Adams COLP report for some reason?
So how I read it, because of radio talk (what Bamber had said about Sheila going crazy she has the gun, in his phone call) PS Adams hears this over the radio, offers his services and waits for the request to attend the scene, so it was a while after 4.00am that the request actually went out, this would have been when Bews had made the assessment and feed from Bamber? Would they have made a request for firearms if they had seen someone in the house at this early stage? I don't think they would, i they would have investigated it further.
It's possible that the 3.55/ 4.00am was used as a reference point to when they first heard the radio chatter?
Well balanced and concise, Justice. Clarity in the midst of confusion.
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Point 22 Roch, I think you have always been under the impression that the tactical fire arms unit was called earlier than when Bews made the request? If you read Adams report he tells you, at 4.00am he was on operation (plain clothes) in Colchester when he heard radio talk of a possible fire arms incident at Tolleshunt Darcy, so he contacts HQ to tell her that they were a fire arms unit and were available. He goes on to say after that he didn't hear anything for a while. So at this point no request had been made for Tactical fire arms team to be deployed. It was only when Bews made the request a little while later that they was deployed, Adams then had to remind the operator they would have to return back to HQ to draw weapons?
I don't even think the dog unit was deployed, all that happened was a dog handler who was at HQ OFFERED to direct them to the scene, so in a nutshell no dog unit was sent for, yes one dog handler went but wasn't requested.
It will not let me paste PS Adams COLP report for some reason?
So how I read it, because of radio talk (what Bamber had said about Sheila going crazy she has the gun, in his phone call) PS Adams hears this over the radio, offers his services and waits for the request to attend the scene, so it was a while after 4.00am that the request actually went out, this would have been when Bews had made the assessment and feed from Bamber? Would they have made a request for firearms if they had seen someone in the house at this early stage? I don't think they would, i they would have investigated it further.
It's possible that the 3.55/ 4.00am was used as a reference point to when they first heard the radio chatter?
That all makes excellent sense to me Justice. But where is the major incident report that lists an 'unidentified male' was spotted?
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Just noticed this. Supporters often quote the first log entry (below - following on from Bonnett's log) to suggest that the TFG were 'in conversation' with someone inside the house, even though it also states that a 'challenge was met with no response'. However, there were two logs being kept, the second followed on from West's log and the same incident mentions nothing about a 'conversation' - showing it was just an unfortunate choice of word.
Clearly, the TFG 'tried' to contact someone inside the house, using a loud hailer but given that they were all dead, the 'challenge was met with no response'. Yet another incidence of a word being twisted to form a conspiracy. Had a 'two way conversation' taken place, it would have been important enough for BOTH logs to report it.
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Just noticed this. Supporters often quote the first log entry (below - following on from West's log) to suggest that the TFG were 'in conversation' with someone inside the house, even though it also states that a 'challenge was met with no response'. However, there were two logs being kept, the second followed on from Bonnett's log and the same incident mentions nothing about a 'conversation' - showing it was just an unfortunate choice of word.
Clearly, the TFG 'tried' to contact someone inside the house, using a loud hailer but given that they were all dead, the 'challenge was met with no response'. Yet another incidence of a word being twisted to form a conspiracy. Had a 'two way conversation' taken place, it would have been important enough for BOTH logs to report it.
Caroline, they won't want to know that. They'll have their eyes closed, their fingers in their ears, singing La-La-La tunelessly.